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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM

Title: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM
I've been in several situations where strangers call me "dear" or some equivalent: restaurant waitstaff, phone order-takers, people at airline ticket counters, supermarket cashiers, etc. I find this extremely irritating but am never sure how to address it in a way that will not anger these people and thereby result in subpar service. I sometimes call them "dear" in return, but that feels awkward to me. Would appreciate some suggestions on replies that are polite but get my point across.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 22, 2022, 09:33:56 AM
As far as on-campus life, I never address a student as 'Dear_______' in an email. Always 'Hello________.' Of course a female professor could certainly do it, and a male recipient would be required to put up with it, whether or not he likes it.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on September 22, 2022, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM
I've been in several situations where strangers call me "dear" or some equivalent: restaurant waitstaff, phone order-takers, people at airline ticket counters, supermarket cashiers, etc. I find this extremely irritating but am never sure how to address it in a way that will not anger these people and thereby result in subpar service. I sometimes call them "dear" in return, but that feels awkward to me. Would appreciate some suggestions on replies that are polite but get my point across.

Anyone I've had call me "Dear" (other than a family member) seemed to address everyone that way, so it didn't bother me.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mamselle on September 22, 2022, 10:02:03 AM
It depends.

If it's at the airport coffee shop and I'll never see them again, I let it go, usually (unless it's really obnoxiously put).

If it's a situation in town where I'm likely to reappear, I simply say, "Please don't call me that, thanks!" and they usually apologize and we go on.

I was raised in Ohio, where such blandishments are quite common, and they bothered me then, too; after I moved away, and was encouraged to take more control of the quality of my day-to-day interactions, and dealt with the fallout of an abusive marriage in which it became more important to me to shape the nature of my interactions with others more, I started speaking up more.

It is important to be able to distinguish between when the terms ('honey,' etc.) are just reflexive--the individual was raised someplace where they were expected, for example) and when they border on stalkerish grooming--which I've also seen.

That affects the tone of my reply.

I'm stern with stalker-types, more genial with others...and if they seem truly perplexed, I don't make a big deal of it unless it happens again. In those cases, I might say, quietly, "I'm not really your dear/honey, whatever, remember?" and then go on.

M. 
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Puget on September 22, 2022, 10:02:40 AM
This is a cultural thing-- in some places, everyone is "dear" or "hon". Certainly this is accepted, even expected, of diner wait staff in much of the US. Unless it is said condescendingly I'd let it go, especially for one-time encounters.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on September 22, 2022, 10:23:06 AM
It is cultural in many places.   Not all places-- here in New England, it is much less normative, though certain ethnic subcultures are much more likely to use it.   Me, I loathe the idea... it sounds like condescension, treating me like a child.   Six months ago, my local dentist cancelled my appointment because the hygienist called in sick.    Left phone message.   I called back, and the 20-ish receptionist, obviously speaking with a non-local accent, offered me a replacement appointment two days later, but at a time I was to be working.   I told her that I would not be able to do this and asked for another appointment.   She offered another one... six weeks later.  I told her that this was unacceptable and it needed to be sooner than this (after all, they had cancelled on me).   She said essentially, 'honey, that's too bad'.   I told her 'do not call me honey, address me as 'sir''.  Around here, traditional cultural mores do not permit 20-something receptionists do not address 50-something customers as 'honey, but I do get that she did not likely realize this, owing to her culture.   It steamed me greatly.   I was going to complain to her superiors but let it go, and took the six weeks later appt., largely because she was just not going to give me anything sooner.   I do confess that part of my opposition to being addressed as 'honey', (or, for that matter, things like 'dear') does come from my extreme irritation at having to accept such condescending, humiliating, disrespectful address, from customers at my pt retail job.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on September 22, 2022, 10:34:28 AM
Perhaps oddly, I have the opposite problem. People, especially service workers, often call me "sir". I respond: Please don't call me "sir", or I'll start believing it.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on September 22, 2022, 10:59:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 22, 2022, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM
I've been in several situations where strangers call me "dear" or some equivalent: restaurant waitstaff, phone order-takers, people at airline ticket counters, supermarket cashiers, etc. I find this extremely irritating but am never sure how to address it in a way that will not anger these people and thereby result in subpar service. I sometimes call them "dear" in return, but that feels awkward to me. Would appreciate some suggestions on replies that are polite but get my point across.

Anyone I've had call me "Dear" (other than a family member) seemed to address everyone that way, so it didn't bother me.

Yeah, I think that's almost always the case. I can understand being annoyed if you think you're particularly being addressed that way and others aren't, but I doubt thats what is happening.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on September 22, 2022, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 22, 2022, 10:23:06 AM
   She said essentially, 'honey, that's too bad'.   I told her 'do not call me honey, address me as 'sir''.  Around here, traditional cultural mores do not permit 20-something receptionists do not address 50-something customers as 'honey, but I do get that she did not likely realize this, owing to her culture.   It steamed me greatly.   I was going to complain to her superiors but let it go, and took the six weeks later appt., largely because she was just not going to give me anything sooner.   I do confess that part of my opposition to being addressed as 'honey', (or, for that matter, things like 'dear') does come from my extreme irritation at having to accept such condescending, humiliating, disrespectful address, from customers at my pt retail job.

I don't really think she was naive about cultural norms. She was telling you that she thought you were being obnoxious and pushy. The honey there is a sort of faux politeness, it slightly softens the "too bad/jump in a lake" message to make it more socially acceptable.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Vark on September 22, 2022, 11:09:26 AM
Caracal: Well, last winter I was dining at a restaurant with a small group of friends (both sexes, all the same age) and the waitress addressed only me as "dear." Not only annoying but puzzling.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 22, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 22, 2022, 10:59:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 22, 2022, 09:39:16 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM
I've been in several situations where strangers call me "dear" or some equivalent: restaurant waitstaff, phone order-takers, people at airline ticket counters, supermarket cashiers, etc. I find this extremely irritating but am never sure how to address it in a way that will not anger these people and thereby result in subpar service. I sometimes call them "dear" in return, but that feels awkward to me. Would appreciate some suggestions on replies that are polite but get my point across.

Anyone I've had call me "Dear" (other than a family member) seemed to address everyone that way, so it didn't bother me.

Yeah, I think that's almost always the case. I can understand being annoyed if you think you're particularly being addressed that way and others aren't, but I doubt thats what is happening.

You're not in a position to mind it if you identify as male, so that question is settled. It certainly would not count as harassment, and you'd be laughed at for suggesting it.
In my workplace you can get in trouble, officially, for addressing persons identifying as female as 'dear' but not if you are also female-identifying.


I get called 'boss' by Black men which I might argue could be construed is passive-aggressive if one is considering the historical implications, but I just roll with it. It usually seems to be said in a friendly tone, so, well and good. There's enough real trouble in the world to be worried about this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on September 22, 2022, 11:32:23 AM
Again, irrespective of the fact that the dentist had cancelled my appointment, not me, and for all she knew, I needed actual dental treatment asap, it was not out of line for me to tell her that I needed to be given another appointment at a time when I would not have to miss work, sooner than six weeks (esp at a large chain dental practice, which should have sent a replacement hygienist to this location, when the local one called in).   Only then did she call me honey, which pisses me off.   Really, it did.   Around here (this is not the rural southern backcountry/ Mayberry, etc.), this is not done, again, by a 20-something receptionist speaking to a 50-something paying customer.   This should not be hard to grasp, or accept.  I almost went online to the chain practice www and sent a complaint letter, but did not want her to be disciplined.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2022, 11:39:52 AM
Have you tried 'babe' or 'muffin'?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on September 22, 2022, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 22, 2022, 11:32:23 AM
Again, irrespective of the fact that the dentist had cancelled my appointment, not me, and for all she knew, I needed actual dental treatment asap, it was not out of line for me to tell her that I needed to be given another appointment at a time when I would not have to miss work, sooner than six weeks (esp at a large chain dental practice, which should have sent a replacement hygienist to this location, when the local one called in).   Only then did she call me honey, which pisses me off.   Really, it did.   Around here (this is not the rural southern backcountry/ Mayberry, etc.), this is not done, again, by a 20-something receptionist speaking to a 50-something paying customer.   This should not be hard to grasp, or accept.  I almost went online to the chain practice www and sent a complaint letter, but did not want her to be disciplined.


Oh, I'm not trying to get into whether it was right or not, just telling you that the disrespect was intentional. Would it really have pissed you off less though if she had just said "that's too bad."
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: apl68 on September 22, 2022, 01:56:24 PM
A cultural thing that wouldn't bother me, unless context suggested that the speaker was being sarcastic or creepy.  Not sure I've ever been called specifically "Dear" by anybody I was not already on a first-name basis with.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 22, 2022, 04:01:57 PM
The lesson I would take from Kaysixteen's experience, partly because my own experience bears this out, is that it is women who keep these terms in circulation and then also reserve the right to take offense when they are on the receiving end.

ETA: Not that you asked, but I honestly don't think I mind being called 'dear' or such. Maybe I don't notice the condescension, or choose to ignore it. I'm more worried about sexual harassment accusations. I guess not everyone has a DEI staff like ours. On steroids, they're always pissed off about 'inequity' and the faculty union follows in lockstep. Constantly finding new ways to get in your face.

I don't understand why being called honey or dear is so annoying.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Vark on September 23, 2022, 04:35:34 PM
Mahoganny:
I do not know any women who use the term, but I assume that those who do so would not take offense at being called "dear." As other posters have pointed out, it is a cultural norm (a very old-fashioned one, I might add) in certain geographic areas. Unfortunately, usage of the term has spread.

I object to being called "dear" primarily because it is presumptively familiar and condescending, whether intentionally so or not. Although it would be nice to spend a few moments kindly informing users why the term is objectionable, I would settle for a quick tactful response that would indicate that I feel the word is inappropriate.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 23, 2022, 10:14:04 PM
Quote from: Vark on September 23, 2022, 04:35:34 PM
Mahoganny:
I do not know any women who use the term, but I assume that those who do so would not take offense at being called "dear." As other posters have pointed out, it is a cultural norm (a very old-fashioned one, I might add) in certain geographic areas. Unfortunately, usage of the term has spread.

I object to being called "dear" primarily because it is presumptively familiar and condescending, whether intentionally so or not. Although it would be nice to spend a few moments kindly informing users why the term is objectionable, I would settle for a quick tactful response that would indicate that I feel the word is inappropriate.

I think I understand. I don't have an answer. If a stranger calls me something I don't like, I just avoid that stranger. If someone I have occasional contact with called me something I don't like, I might shake my head while smiling and say 'it's "Mahagonny."' After a few times that would probably work. Maybe that will help you.
I just think there is a gender inequality thing going on with affectionate terms today. A man, especially a white man, is like the opposite of teflon. He's velcro. Almost any accusation sticks immediately. Racist, sexist, harassing, etc. It bugs me that women can call you 'honey' or 'dear' and while it wouldn't bother me, I know that if I complained publicly about it I would get laughed at, yet I shouldn't use those terms.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on September 24, 2022, 06:25:16 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 23, 2022, 04:35:34 PM
Mahoganny:
I do not know any women who use the term, but I assume that those who do so would not take offense at being called "dear." As other posters have pointed out, it is a cultural norm (a very old-fashioned one, I might add) in certain geographic areas. Unfortunately, usage of the term has spread.

I object to being called "dear" primarily because it is presumptively familiar and condescending, whether intentionally so or not. Although it would be nice to spend a few moments kindly informing users why the term is objectionable, I would settle for a quick tactful response that would indicate that I feel the word is inappropriate.

I don't really agree that is either old fashioned or condescending. There are contexts in which it would be. If I called a student "dear" that would certainly be condescending and inappropriate. However, that isn't the kind of context you're talking about. When people use dear or honey or other endearments in service contexts, its really about expressing care. The person waiting your table is taking on the role of someone who is taking care of you and the dear suggests they are doing so in a comfortable familiar context. Using sir or ma'am can feel stiff and also implies a kind of subservience as opposed to caretaking. It's also probably just kind of convenient. There's no risk of misgendering anyone and causing offense if you just call everyone dear.

People aren't just making this up, this exists within a cultural and linguistic context. What does it mean if you object to it, or make some snide "comeback?" Well, I'd say you're basically saying "don't pretend we know each other, you're just here to wait the table." That's how it will be taken anyway. Language is shared. You can find the use of dear annoying, but that doesn't make it offensive and you're going to look like the jerk if you go around objecting to an innocuous form of address just because it feels unfamiliar to you.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 24, 2022, 09:17:45 AM
I grew up in an area where this is not really used anymore and many would find offensive.  I then moved South, and had it happen a lot.  From what I could tell, when they used it, it was far from condescending and they were just being friendly.  Ironically, when I was down there it seemed people would either be overly formal (sir/ma'am) or extra familiar (dear/honey).  Regardless, this whole issue really depends on the context.





Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Hegemony on September 24, 2022, 01:23:16 PM
The woman at the local ethnic shop where I used to live always called me (and everyone else) "my love" — "I'll have it in stock on Tuesday, my love" — and I really liked it.

Whether you like it or loathe it, I don't think being "deared" rises to the level of offense. People do things we would rather they didn't do all the time in every direction — it is a useful life skill to let the minor ones go.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on September 24, 2022, 02:38:22 PM
Quote from: Caracal on September 24, 2022, 06:25:16 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 23, 2022, 04:35:34 PM
Mahoganny:
I do not know any women who use the term, but I assume that those who do so would not take offense at being called "dear." As other posters have pointed out, it is a cultural norm (a very old-fashioned one, I might add) in certain geographic areas. Unfortunately, usage of the term has spread.

I object to being called "dear" primarily because it is presumptively familiar and condescending, whether intentionally so or not. Although it would be nice to spend a few moments kindly informing users why the term is objectionable, I would settle for a quick tactful response that would indicate that I feel the word is inappropriate.

I don't really agree that is either old fashioned or condescending. There are contexts in which it would be. If I called a student "dear" that would certainly be condescending and inappropriate. However, that isn't the kind of context you're talking about. When people use dear or honey or other endearments in service contexts, its really about expressing care. The person waiting your table is taking on the role of someone who is taking care of you and the dear suggests they are doing so in a comfortable familiar context. Using sir or ma'am can feel stiff and also implies a kind of subservience as opposed to caretaking. It's also probably just kind of convenient. There's no risk of misgendering anyone and causing offense if you just call everyone dear.

People aren't just making this up, this exists within a cultural and linguistic context. What does it mean if you object to it, or make some snide "comeback?" Well, I'd say you're basically saying "don't pretend we know each other, you're just here to wait the table." That's how it will be taken anyway. Language is shared. You can find the use of dear annoying, but that doesn't make it offensive and you're going to look like the jerk if you go around objecting to an innocuous form of address just because it feels unfamiliar to you.

I'm used to people using terms of endearment in a service context. One of my specialists greets his female patients with a cheery "Hi sweetie, how are you?". I've never found this demeaning or insulting, mainly because I have a very good relationship with this physician, and also because he greets me like a long-lost friend. The tire guy (who either owns the small shop or is the head employee there), although much younger than me, invariably addresses me as "dear". This is someone quite trustworthy because on a few occasions he told me that the car didn't need any work/parts, so there were no charges. The older employees at Home Depot have addressed me as "dear"; here again they do so in the context of helping me find certain tools or responding to my questions regarding the proper tool for certain jobs. It's usually women who address me as "honey" or "hon"; here again, there is no question of disrespect, but only the desire to help me in a store/diner setting. Very often people use these terms to signal their willingness to help, and also to treat you as a valued customer.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: paultuttle on September 26, 2022, 07:49:13 AM
Being a tall, deep-voiced, straight-appearing gay Southern man, I have to confess that I've deployed "honey," "sugar," and other such overly-sweet diminutives a not insignificant number of times over the years against (who else?) straight male homophobes.

Freaks them the hell out or else ticks them off abominably, let me tell you.

Either way, doing that eventually makes the point that I'm a man, not a woman, and therefore not subject to what I might label "collateral misogyny" (in this culture) merely because I happen to be gay.

(Apparently, it's more of a slam to deploy those diminutives when, say, beating them in a footrace, showing them how to change a tire or drive a stick, or [best of all] standing right next to them and looking way, way down.)
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: MarathonRunner on September 26, 2022, 01:59:49 PM
If you are visiting Newfoundland, that's pretty standard, along with "my love." My Newfie husband was entertained the first time we visited Newfoundland together due to my reaction to "my dear" and "my love." That's just the local language. Although I remain pleased that James Doohan called me "sweetie" when I met him at a Star Trek convention before his death. Such a Canadian gentleman.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on September 26, 2022, 07:23:42 PM
Random points:

1) This is 2022.  Where exactly would it be considered acceptable professional practice for a physician to address a patient as 'sweetie'?  Now I get that some of his regular patients may know he's going to do so and like it, for Dr. Strange to do this to an unknown patient, or even an existing patient whose preference for such terms of address he does not actually know, well...?

2) About 12 years ago I recall teaching a class at the Christian school I worked at, where I told the students, juniors and seniors, wrt appropriate college practices, 'never ever address a female professor as 'Ms., 'Mrs.', or 'Miss', unless specifically instructed *by her* to do so'.   Did I do something wrong?

3) Following up on the point I was making (implying) to those kids, is that in situations of social intercourse where the people are (especially strangers), but in any case of different social rank in the situation (such as middle aged patients vs. 20-ish receptionists), the onus is on the social inferior in said situation to use appropriately respectful terms until and unless told not to keep on doing so.

4) I confess that I am a fan of 'Miss Manners'.  She made the point explicitly, something which is SOP in traditional middle (and higher) class culture here in New England, but maybe less so elsewhere in the country, is that the inferior must wait for permission to change from using titles to address a superior, to using their first name, must never ask for such permission, and must not take offense if permission is never forthcoming.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: nebo113 on September 27, 2022, 06:26:47 AM
via K16


1) This is 2022.  Where exactly would it be considered acceptable professional practice for a physician to address a patient as 'sweetie'?  Now I get that some of his regular patients may know he's going to do so and like it, for Dr. Strange to do this to an unknown patient, or even an existing patient whose preference for such terms of address he does not actually know, well...?

Local anesthesia in office for eye procedure.  Excruciatingly painful (and ultimately did not work).  Board certified opthamologist calls me sweetie.  From the depths of deep pain, I ask him not to.  He does it again.  I switched to another doc in the practice.  Asshole.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 27, 2022, 06:39:18 AM
Quote from: paultuttle on September 26, 2022, 07:49:13 AM
Being a tall, deep-voiced, straight-appearing gay Southern man, I have to confess that I've deployed "honey," "sugar," and other such overly-sweet diminutives a not insignificant number of times over the years against (who else?) straight male homophobes.

Freaks them the hell out or else ticks them off abominably, let me tell you.


Doesn't it occur to you that you might be doing a disservice to other gay men who don't have a taste for your kind of mischief?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Volhiker78 on September 27, 2022, 08:02:53 AM
My thoughts on K16's questions. 

1.  Never. 

2.  No, although I wouldn't have limited it to females.  I told my daughter going to college as a freshman this fall that she should address all her teachers as "Professor .....' regardless of their gender, rank or age.  They could ask to be called something else if they preferred.

4. I've  never read Miss Manners but I suspect some of her advice has become dated. My current experience with graduate students / faculty at an R1 school is that it is fine for everyone to use first names. I don't think either the faculty nor grad students consider it rude for the student to address a faculty member by first name. 
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 27, 2022, 10:07:31 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 26, 2022, 07:23:42 PM
Random points:

1) This is 2022.  Where exactly would it be considered acceptable professional practice for a physician to address a patient as 'sweetie'?  Now I get that some of his regular patients may know he's going to do so and like it, for Dr. Strange to do this to an unknown patient, or even an existing patient whose preference for such terms of address he does not actually know, well...?

2) About 12 years ago I recall teaching a class at the Christian school I worked at, where I told the students, juniors and seniors, wrt appropriate college practices, 'never ever address a female professor as 'Ms., 'Mrs.', or 'Miss', unless specifically instructed *by her* to do so'.   Did I do something wrong?

3) Following up on the point I was making (implying) to those kids, is that in situations of social intercourse where the people are (especially strangers), but in any case of different social rank in the situation (such as middle aged patients vs. 20-ish receptionists), the onus is on the social inferior in said situation to use appropriately respectful terms until and unless told not to keep on doing so.

4) I confess that I am a fan of 'Miss Manners'.  She made the point explicitly, something which is SOP in traditional middle (and higher) class culture here in New England, but maybe less so elsewhere in the country, is that the inferior must wait for permission to change from using titles to address a superior, to using their first name, must never ask for such permission, and must not take offense if permission is never forthcoming.

"Social inferior"? 

I think you woke up in the wrong century...

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on September 27, 2022, 11:04:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 26, 2022, 07:23:42 PM
Random points:

1) This is 2022.  Where exactly would it be considered acceptable professional practice for a physician to address a patient as 'sweetie'?  Now I get that some of his regular patients may know he's going to do so and like it, for Dr. Strange to do this to an unknown patient, or even an existing patient whose preference for such terms of address he does not actually know, well...?


Terms of address, for the most part, depend on the context. This is a physician with an avuncular demeanor, who didn't use this term during the first couple of appointments but only after that. I also recall that this physician no longer addresses me as "sweetie", probably because the practice was swallowed up by a large hospital conglomerate, and is therefore required to follow current protocols. We still have a nice chat at the beginning of the appointment session before getting into the medical details, and he still has the same avuncular demeanor.

I had no problems with this particular physician addressing me as "sweetie" because the physicians in the previous practice, although professional, made you wait for exactly two hours in the waiting room regardless of the time of the appointment or the day of the week. In addition, I was also getting treated for heart problems in the old practice. Much to my surprise as well as that of my PCP in the new (now 12 years old) practice, I didn't have any heart problems. In the overall scheme of things, getting addressed as "sweetie" is far better than being treated for a non-existent medical condition.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: nebo113 on September 27, 2022, 04:32:46 PM
I absolutely agree about context.  What you and I experienced with physicians was contextual, though we experienced it differently, due to context.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on September 27, 2022, 11:07:14 PM
Americans, especially middle class ones not in particulary traditionally conservative areas of the country, often like to think or pretend that we do not have social rank in this country.   They are wrong-- it is a fact of life, and correct.   I am not the same as the 20 yo secretary who calls me to cancel an appointment, and she must not address me in a condescending and impertinent fashion, as though I were her BFF.   Period.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 05:46:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 27, 2022, 11:07:14 PM
Americans, especially middle class ones not in particulary traditionally conservative areas of the country, often like to think or pretend that we do not have social rank in this country.   They are wrong-- it is a fact of life, and correct.   I am not the same as the 20 yo secretary who calls me to cancel an appointment, and she must not address me in a condescending and impertinent fashion, as though I were her BFF.   Period.

Yes, how dare the serfs fail to recognize you stature.   You should probably raise their taxes to teach them a lesson.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on September 28, 2022, 05:55:15 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 27, 2022, 11:07:14 PM
Americans, especially middle class ones not in particularly traditionally conservative areas of the country, often like to think or pretend that we do not have social rank in this country.   They are wrong-- it is a fact of life, and correct.   I am not the same as the 20 yo secretary who calls me to cancel an appointment, and she must not address me in a condescending and impertinent fashion, as though I were her BFF.   Period.

The issue may be easier to think of in terms of social roles, rather than social "status". Young people, most especially GenZ's, have been raised in an atmosphere where roles are inherently evil. (For example, when even "gender" is not well-defined, or even constant, then virtually every social interaction potentially needs to be negotiated from scratch. And with things like "fluidity", even previously negotiated factors are by no means settled.)

I have good relationships with all of my adult children. However, I have always been, and will always be, their parent. While the specific details of that relationship change over time, it means that they can make requests of me that they could not make of others (such as for accommodation, childcare, etc.), and I can make similar requests of them (water my plants when I'm away. check my mail, etc.). I have never claimed to prioritize being their "friend".

Similarly, my son, who is a minister, explained the importance of clerical vestments. The minister is not "better" than the congregants, but when s/he puts on the vestments s/he is taking on the role of spiritual teacher.

With my students, my role as an instructor reflects the institution's recognition of me as having sufficient expertise in the material and in the methods of teaching that students can assume I know what I'm doing. It doesn't guarantee that I will get everything correct, but it does mean that if there is something that does not make sense to them they should ask questions politely.

In the case of Kay and the receptionist, his role as the client is not the same as the role of one of her peers, and it is not "social superiority" that is responsible, it is social roles, in this case those of client and employee of the business serving said client.

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 06:16:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2022, 05:55:15 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 27, 2022, 11:07:14 PM
Americans, especially middle class ones not in particularly traditionally conservative areas of the country, often like to think or pretend that we do not have social rank in this country.   They are wrong-- it is a fact of life, and correct.   I am not the same as the 20 yo secretary who calls me to cancel an appointment, and she must not address me in a condescending and impertinent fashion, as though I were her BFF.   Period.

The issue may be easier to think of in terms of social roles, rather than social "status". Young people, most especially GenZ's, have been raised in an atmosphere where roles are inherently evil. (For example, when even "gender" is not well-defined, or even constant, then virtually every social interaction potentially needs to be negotiated from scratch. And with things like "fluidity", even previously negotiated factors are by no means settled.)

I have good relationships with all of my adult children. However, I have always been, and will always be, their parent. While the specific details of that relationship change over time, it means that they can make requests of me that they could not make of others (such as for accommodation, childcare, etc.), and I can make similar requests of them (water my plants when I'm away. check my mail, etc.). I have never claimed to prioritize being their "friend".

Similarly, my son, who is a minister, explained the importance of clerical vestments. The minister is not "better" than the congregants, but when s/he puts on the vestments s/he is taking on the role of spiritual teacher.

With my students, my role as an instructor reflects the institution's recognition of me as having sufficient expertise in the material and in the methods of teaching that students can assume I know what I'm doing. It doesn't guarantee that I will get everything correct, but it does mean that if there is something that does not make sense to them they should ask questions politely.

In the case of Kay and the receptionist, his role as the client is not the same as the role of one of her peers, and it is not "social superiority" that is responsible, it is social roles, in this case those of client and employee of the business serving said client.

Obviously there are social roles and etiquette, but norms change over time and by region and your preferences do not determine what those are or make other standards wrong.  Expecting the next generation to use the titles you may have grown up with is ridiculous. 

Ironically, when I moved South, they were both more formal and more familiar at the same time.  I would either get called sir or dear/honey/etc , not much middle ground.  Instead of being offended, I adopted the local standards as best I could. 

I have also been placed where they called me dude, or man.  No offense was meant, just a familiar term that was typical for the time/place.  Taking offense to this type of thing will only make you bitter.

That being said, there is context and I recognize that it can be condescending, so for the OP I understand with the issue. However, most medical clinics I have been to recently have used first names.  This is just the new normal.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on September 28, 2022, 06:59:07 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 06:16:00 AM

Obviously there are social roles and etiquette, but norms change over time and by region and your preferences do not determine what those are or make other standards wrong.  Expecting the next generation to use the titles you may have grown up with is ridiculous. 

Ironically, when I moved South, they were both more formal and more familiar at the same time.  I would either get called sir or dear/honey/etc , not much middle ground.  Instead of being offended, I adopted the local standards as best I could. 

I have also been placed where they called me dude, or man.  No offense was meant, just a familiar term that was typical for the time/place.  Taking offense to this type of thing will only make you bitter.

That being said, there is context and I recognize that it can be condescending, so for the OP I understand with the issue. However, most medical clinics I have been to recently have used first names.  This is just the new normal.

I agree that taking offense is not helpful. But it doesn't require you to respond in kind. (I'm not going to call a student "dude" because they addressed me that way. I'm not starting an email with "Hey!" and so on.)
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2022, 06:59:07 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 06:16:00 AM

Obviously there are social roles and etiquette, but norms change over time and by region and your preferences do not determine what those are or make other standards wrong.  Expecting the next generation to use the titles you may have grown up with is ridiculous. 

Ironically, when I moved South, they were both more formal and more familiar at the same time.  I would either get called sir or dear/honey/etc , not much middle ground.  Instead of being offended, I adopted the local standards as best I could. 

I have also been placed where they called me dude, or man.  No offense was meant, just a familiar term that was typical for the time/place.  Taking offense to this type of thing will only make you bitter.

That being said, there is context and I recognize that it can be condescending, so for the OP I understand with the issue. However, most medical clinics I have been to recently have used first names.  This is just the new normal.

I agree that taking offense is not helpful. But it doesn't require you to respond in kind. (I'm not going to call a student "dude" because they addressed me that way. I'm not starting an email with "Hey!" and so on.)

I have yet to have a student call me dude, but that would be pretty awesome and I may indeed respond in kind.     

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: downer on September 28, 2022, 11:18:09 AM
Quote from: Vark on September 22, 2022, 09:29:17 AM
I've been in several situations where strangers call me "dear" or some equivalent: restaurant waitstaff, phone order-takers, people at airline ticket counters, supermarket cashiers, etc. I find this extremely irritating but am never sure how to address it in a way that will not anger these people and thereby result in subpar service. I sometimes call them "dear" in return, but that feels awkward to me. Would appreciate some suggestions on replies that are polite but get my point across.

https://www.wikihow.com/Deal-with-Condescending-People
https://healthassistcorp.com/what-to-say-when-they-call-you-dear/
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on September 28, 2022, 11:56:47 AM
Here is the classic comeback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6n8VyqaCQ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6n8VyqaCQ4), start at 0:50 or earlier.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: secundem_artem on September 28, 2022, 12:33:16 PM
The Aussies have it right.  Everybody, regardless of social status, race, or anything else is your mate.  It's not just an informal term of address.  The concept of "mateship" is quite real. 
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on September 29, 2022, 06:18:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 28, 2022, 06:59:07 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 06:16:00 AM

Obviously there are social roles and etiquette, but norms change over time and by region and your preferences do not determine what those are or make other standards wrong.  Expecting the next generation to use the titles you may have grown up with is ridiculous. 

Ironically, when I moved South, they were both more formal and more familiar at the same time.  I would either get called sir or dear/honey/etc , not much middle ground.  Instead of being offended, I adopted the local standards as best I could. 

I have also been placed where they called me dude, or man.  No offense was meant, just a familiar term that was typical for the time/place.  Taking offense to this type of thing will only make you bitter.

That being said, there is context and I recognize that it can be condescending, so for the OP I understand with the issue. However, most medical clinics I have been to recently have used first names.  This is just the new normal.

I agree that taking offense is not helpful. But it doesn't require you to respond in kind. (I'm not going to call a student "dude" because they addressed me that way. I'm not starting an email with "Hey!" and so on.)

No, of course not, but it illustrates that there are actually fairly complex rules about context and positionally. Often, the rudest thing to do is to fail to use any kind of salutation at all. If a waiter comes to a table and says "what are you having," that could easily come across as quite rude. If you have the right tone of voice and mannerisms, you could pull it off, but it's tricky and you might mess it up if you get rushed. Similarly, if I'm in the grocery store and I see someone drop their keys, I don't yell after them "Hey! Hey! Keys!" That's basically the only time I ever call anyone sir or ma'am and it's if you're going to raise your voice to get the attention of a stranger, you really need the term of address to make it clear that you're not being confrontational. The formality isn't really the point, if it was in my repetoir, "man," mate," "brother," or "buddy" would all do the same thing.

If you think about it, familiar terms of address like dear are fine in a service context because there is no risk of blurred lines. The waiter at the restaurant is not actually attempting to communicate that they are on affectionate terms with you-that's the basic misunderstand that Vark has. Dear is a way of communicating that they are friendly, relaxed and will take care of you. The reason it isn't ok to call a student "dear" is because it carries with it connotations that are inappropriate within a student/teacher relationship. Ditto for other professional relationships. I can be warm, I can be friendly, but I shouldn't be using language that suggests I'm going to take care of students in ways that a close friend or family member would-or that I view them as adorable small people. 
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on September 29, 2022, 06:18:57 PM
I confess I have been doing alot of thinking about this issue, some of which I had been doing before this thread started (this incident for instance, with the dental receptionist occurred six months ago, and I have actually discussed it with my psychotherapist, and with several friends), and all the more so because my view of my faith is one of an almost Anabaptist-like view of the need for humility and acceptance of life, ('demut', and 'gelassenheit').   That said, the Bible certainly does not advocate absolute egalitarianism (I could cite some passages if anyone wishes), and there are cultural and societal norms at play, which, like it or not, are different for 50-something New Englanders than 20-somethings from, ahem, (remember this receptionist spoke with a distinctive accent demonstrating her membership in a large, increasing, immigrant demographic in my city).   Marshy did an excellent job, further, in clarifying and explaining the issues involved here, and those posters who seem to suggest that it is my responsibility to adjust to changing cultural norms, esp those held by Gen Zers of all ethnicities, ignore the fact that, well, *this is my home state, I am not the immigrant here, and I am a 50-something paying customer*.  It is not my responsibility to conform to the changing mores of young people, esp newcomer ones.  As I mentioned when I described how I told my hs students never to address female profs as 'Miss'/ etc, it is irrelevant whether Gen Zer wants to call her such, thinks he should be allowed to do so, etc.-- she is the authority figure and deserves respect, and if she does not wish to be so addressed, Gen Zer must not address her as such, period.   And she gets to rebuke him if he does.  (For years, stretching back to the old fora, many female professors here have made their antipathy to being so addressed crystal clear!)  Now I do not exactly know, further, why it is that  I greatly dislike being addressed as 'dear', 'honey', 'buddy', etc., (though I have my suspicions) but that I do dislike this, is crystal clear as well-- truth is, it infuriates me.  Just today I was having a decent lunch in a casual dining cafe I have visited on occasion (it is not really very close to me), when the waiter, otherwise excellent, called me 'buddy'-- he was probably maybe 20-25 years younger than I-- I said nothing, but, well... He should not have called me 'buddy'.   I am paying to be called 'sir', because, well, since I was a wee sprite, I have been raised in a cultural milieu which has taught me that juniors, especially in professional service situations, do not address elders, esp paying customers, with cheeky frathouse familiarity.   Indeed, even from a purely pragmatic sense, it is better for those servers to address those older customers with due traditional respect, as it lessens the likelihood of getting those people mad at them, and can even counter a multitude of sins, as it were).  I get that the world changes, and many of those changes are for the better.   Many, but not all, and I do not have to like those bad changes, nor blindly tolerate or accept them.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Puget on September 29, 2022, 08:01:41 PM
Kay, I'm going to say this gently, an genuinely, and only once--
It must be exhausting and counterproductive to spend your life aggrieved and tilting at windmills like you seem to be. What might happen if you tried, just for a little experiment, to put down the burden of needing to assert your rightness and the world's wrongness in the face of inevitable cultural change? To observe the thoughts and feelings these things bring up for you and then let them go, rather than ruminating about them? Perhaps something to discuss with your therapist.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 30, 2022, 03:58:31 AM
Quote from: Puget on September 29, 2022, 08:01:41 PM
Kay, I'm going to say this gently, an genuinely, and only once--
It must be exhausting and counterproductive to spend your life aggrieved and tilting at windmills like you seem to be. What might happen if you tried, just for a little experiment, to put down the burden of needing to assert your rightness and the world's wrongness in the face of inevitable cultural change? To observe the thoughts and feelings these things bring up for you and then let them go, rather than ruminating about them? Perhaps something to discuss with your therapist.
Random thoughts/questions
I don't see society changing well or through shared understanding. I see society and fragmented, overly interested in placating youth, and not well grounded. Maybe that's why I enjoy reading K16 as he has well reasoned points to make and sounds well grounded if a little uptight.
Example: some of my students go ahead and call me by first name. Some call me 'Professor M.' The culture is in flux.
As long as we're all discussing mental health lately (ours and our neighbor's) has anyone done a study on the long-term psychological effects of adjunct teaching employment? I'd be absolutely amazed if it helps one's self-esteem.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 30, 2022, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 29, 2022, 06:18:57 PM
I confess I have been doing alot of thinking about this issue, some of which I had been doing before this thread started (this incident for instance, with the dental receptionist occurred six months ago, and I have actually discussed it with my psychotherapist, and with several friends), and all the more so because my view of my faith is one of an almost Anabaptist-like view of the need for humility and acceptance of life, ('demut', and 'gelassenheit').   That said, the Bible certainly does not advocate absolute egalitarianism (I could cite some passages if anyone wishes), and there are cultural and societal norms at play, which, like it or not, are different for 50-something New Englanders than 20-somethings from, ahem, (remember this receptionist spoke with a distinctive accent demonstrating her membership in a large, increasing, immigrant demographic in my city).   Marshy did an excellent job, further, in clarifying and explaining the issues involved here, and those posters who seem to suggest that it is my responsibility to adjust to changing cultural norms, esp those held by Gen Zers of all ethnicities, ignore the fact that, well, *this is my home state, I am not the immigrant here, and I am a 50-something paying customer*.  It is not my responsibility to conform to the changing mores of young people, esp newcomer ones.  As I mentioned when I described how I told my hs students never to address female profs as 'Miss'/ etc, it is irrelevant whether Gen Zer wants to call her such, thinks he should be allowed to do so, etc.-- she is the authority figure and deserves respect, and if she does not wish to be so addressed, Gen Zer must not address her as such, period.   And she gets to rebuke him if he does.  (For years, stretching back to the old fora, many female professors here have made their antipathy to being so addressed crystal clear!)  Now I do not exactly know, further, why it is that  I greatly dislike being addressed as 'dear', 'honey', 'buddy', etc., (though I have my suspicions) but that I do dislike this, is crystal clear as well-- truth is, it infuriates me.  Just today I was having a decent lunch in a casual dining cafe I have visited on occasion (it is not really very close to me), when the waiter, otherwise excellent, called me 'buddy'-- he was probably maybe 20-25 years younger than I-- I said nothing, but, well... He should not have called me 'buddy'.   I am paying to be called 'sir', because, well, since I was a wee sprite, I have been raised in a cultural milieu which has taught me that juniors, especially in professional service situations, do not address elders, esp paying customers, with cheeky frathouse familiarity.   Indeed, even from a purely pragmatic sense, it is better for those servers to address those older customers with due traditional respect, as it lessens the likelihood of getting those people mad at them, and can even counter a multitude of sins, as it were).  I get that the world changes, and many of those changes are for the better.   Many, but not all, and I do not have to like those bad changes, nor blindly tolerate or accept them.

You do not have to like change, but that will not stop it from happening.  Allowing it to upset you has no positive impact for you or anyone else, and must make for a frustrating existence. 

Your religion is your business, and no one else has to follow or align with it.  It is the beauty of freedom of religion and speech, which go both ways.  I am not religious, and don't like religion in general, but I would never take offense if you said "bless you" or "have a blessed day" to me.  I feel the intent of the words that are spoken are much more important than the words themself.   

I was at a pizza place yesterday and when I left, the 18ish year old employee said "have a good one man".  He was telling me to have a good day.  Taking offense to someone wishing you a good day just because they didn't use a formal title is crazy.

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on September 30, 2022, 10:55:23 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 30, 2022, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 29, 2022, 06:18:57 PM
I confess I have been doing alot of thinking about this issue, some of which I had been doing before this thread started (this incident for instance, with the dental receptionist occurred six months ago, and I have actually discussed it with my psychotherapist, and with several friends), and all the more so because my view of my faith is one of an almost Anabaptist-like view of the need for humility and acceptance of life, ('demut', and 'gelassenheit').   That said, the Bible certainly does not advocate absolute egalitarianism (I could cite some passages if anyone wishes), and there are cultural and societal norms at play, which, like it or not, are different for 50-something New Englanders than 20-somethings from, ahem, (remember this receptionist spoke with a distinctive accent demonstrating her membership in a large, increasing, immigrant demographic in my city).   Marshy did an excellent job, further, in clarifying and explaining the issues involved here, and those posters who seem to suggest that it is my responsibility to adjust to changing cultural norms, esp those held by Gen Zers of all ethnicities, ignore the fact that, well, *this is my home state, I am not the immigrant here, and I am a 50-something paying customer*.  It is not my responsibility to conform to the changing mores of young people, esp newcomer ones.  As I mentioned when I described how I told my hs students never to address female profs as 'Miss'/ etc, it is irrelevant whether Gen Zer wants to call her such, thinks he should be allowed to do so, etc.-- she is the authority figure and deserves respect, and if she does not wish to be so addressed, Gen Zer must not address her as such, period.   And she gets to rebuke him if he does.  (For years, stretching back to the old fora, many female professors here have made their antipathy to being so addressed crystal clear!)  Now I do not exactly know, further, why it is that  I greatly dislike being addressed as 'dear', 'honey', 'buddy', etc., (though I have my suspicions) but that I do dislike this, is crystal clear as well-- truth is, it infuriates me.  Just today I was having a decent lunch in a casual dining cafe I have visited on occasion (it is not really very close to me), when the waiter, otherwise excellent, called me 'buddy'-- he was probably maybe 20-25 years younger than I-- I said nothing, but, well... He should not have called me 'buddy'.   I am paying to be called 'sir', because, well, since I was a wee sprite, I have been raised in a cultural milieu which has taught me that juniors, especially in professional service situations, do not address elders, esp paying customers, with cheeky frathouse familiarity.   Indeed, even from a purely pragmatic sense, it is better for those servers to address those older customers with due traditional respect, as it lessens the likelihood of getting those people mad at them, and can even counter a multitude of sins, as it were).  I get that the world changes, and many of those changes are for the better.   Many, but not all, and I do not have to like those bad changes, nor blindly tolerate or accept them.

You do not have to like change, but that will not stop it from happening.  Allowing it to upset you has no positive impact for you or anyone else, and must make for a frustrating existence. 

Your religion is your business, and no one else has to follow or align with it.  It is the beauty of freedom of religion and speech, which go both ways.  I am not religious, and don't like religion in general, but I would never take offense if you said "bless you" or "have a blessed day" to me.  I feel the intent of the words that are spoken are much more important than the words themself.   

I was at a pizza place yesterday and when I left, the 18ish year old employee said "have a good one man".  He was telling me to have a good day.  Taking offense to someone wishing you a good day just because they didn't use a formal title is crazy.

I don't take offense at terms of address when it is clear that the person is trying to be friendly/helpful.

I do take the initiative when calling customer support because I don't like being addressed by my first name by whippersnappers who sometimes talk to you as though you are a child/idiot/don't know what you are talking about. I give them my last name first, spelling it out before pronouncing it and then my first name. Very often the representative takes the hint and addresses me as Ms. Lastname. If they insist on addressing me by my first name, I politely ask them to use my last name. This gives me an edge when I'm calling them with a legitimate problem that needs to be addressed. If, after the first "Ms. Lastname", they address me as dear, I just let it ride.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: AvidReader on September 30, 2022, 01:18:01 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 09:50:24 AM
I have yet to have a student call me dude, but that would be pretty awesome and I may indeed respond in kind.   

Must be regional. I've been called "dude" several times by several different students, usually prefixed by "c'mon" and occurring just after I have explained that I will be adhering to one of the expectations in the syllabus. A student at my last secondary school referred to all teachers as "dude," regardless of gender.

AR.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on September 30, 2022, 02:20:09 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 30, 2022, 01:18:01 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 09:50:24 AM
I have yet to have a student call me dude, but that would be pretty awesome and I may indeed respond in kind.   

Must be regional. I've been called "dude" several times by several different students, usually prefixed by "c'mon" and occurring just after I have explained that I will be adhering to one of the expectations in the syllabus. A student at my last secondary school referred to all teachers as "dude," regardless of gender.

AR.

I just finished a lab, and they mostly call me professor or Dr. lastname.      Oddly enough, this weirds me out more than if they were to use my first name. 

Still waiting to see how them calling me dude will make me feel, but I think it would be pretty rad. 
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: downer on September 30, 2022, 04:09:06 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 30, 2022, 01:18:01 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 28, 2022, 09:50:24 AM
I have yet to have a student call me dude, but that would be pretty awesome and I may indeed respond in kind.   

Must be regional. I've been called "dude" several times by several different students, usually prefixed by "c'mon" and occurring just after I have explained that I will be adhering to one of the expectations in the syllabus. A student at my last secondary school referred to all teachers as "dude," regardless of gender.

AR.

Where is the land of the dude?

Is "dude" potentially a hostile word to use? For me, it can be. "What's up, dude?" is friendly. "Really, dude?" has some aggression to it.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on September 30, 2022, 04:30:05 PM
If I read the room properly 'Dude' used to mean one who dresses foppishly. 'All duded up' was not a compliment. So when I hear it used I still think it refers to someone who doesn't quite get it. But maybe through wide use that has softened some.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: downer on September 30, 2022, 04:47:25 PM
The dude abides. (https://www.slashfilm.com/img/gallery/the-big-lebowski-ending-explained-the-dude-abides/intro-1658260021.webp)
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: AvidReader on September 30, 2022, 05:19:17 PM
Quote from: downer on September 30, 2022, 04:09:06 PM
Where is the land of the dude?

Is "dude" potentially a hostile word to use? For me, it can be. "What's up, dude?" is friendly. "Really, dude?" has some aggression to it.

My "land of the dude" has been Bible Belt USA. The tone is always (to me) "really, dude?" --it only comes after the imposition of rules.

My mother strongly objects to being called both "dude" and "guys" (as in, "hi, guys!" meant in quite a friendly manner. Watching her say, "But I'm not," to the cluelessness of the welcomer, is both hilarious and mildly embarrassing.

AR.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: ergative on October 01, 2022, 01:49:58 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on September 30, 2022, 05:19:17 PM
Quote from: downer on September 30, 2022, 04:09:06 PM
Where is the land of the dude?

Is "dude" potentially a hostile word to use? For me, it can be. "What's up, dude?" is friendly. "Really, dude?" has some aggression to it.

My "land of the dude" has been Bible Belt USA. The tone is always (to me) "really, dude?" --it only comes after the imposition of rules.

My mother strongly objects to being called both "dude" and "guys" (as in, "hi, guys!" meant in quite a friendly manner. Watching her say, "But I'm not," to the cluelessness of the welcomer, is both hilarious and mildly embarrassing.

AR.

I spent the second half of my upbringing in the bible belt, and definitely picked up, 'dude,' but not as a term of address. It was more a discourse marker. 'Dude!' I'd say, as a way of announcing that I was about to speak. I wasn't actually calling anyone a dude; I was just staking my claim on the conversational floor to ensure that people were prepared to listen to me.

My mother, of very old East Coast stock, did not understand its purpose, and brought me up short one Thanksgiving when I started to respond to an older cousin in this way. 'Ergative,' she said in performative rebuke, 'Are you actually calling your cousin Bartholomew, who is a judge, a "dude"?'

Dude, whatever, I thought, and went on to make my point about Star Trek.

I've stopped using it now, but I remember it fondly as a very useful rhetorical device.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 01, 2022, 05:07:08 AM
One question that occurred to me in this discussion is this:
What is the difference between someone expecting or demanding a certain title or form of address and someone expecting or demanding a certain pronoun? If there are not "safe" forms of one for general use, then why are there "safe" forms for the other? If there are conventions for one that are socially accepted, why shouldn't there be conventions for both?

(Remember Bill Clinton: "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." Finer linguistic hair-splitting does not exist.)
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 01, 2022, 05:35:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 01, 2022, 05:07:08 AM
One question that occurred to me in this discussion is this:
What is the difference between someone expecting or demanding a certain title or form of address and someone expecting or demanding a certain pronoun? If there are not "safe" forms of one for general use, then why are there "safe" forms for the other? If there are conventions for one that are socially accepted, why shouldn't there be conventions for both?

(Remember Bill Clinton: "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." Finer linguistic hair-splitting does not exist.)

I'll thank you for refraining to call me 'dude' whereas I am gender non-binary and my pronouns 'they/them/their' have already been noted on my email and office door. You're allowed two mistakes. After that, I'm going to bust you for microaggression, for the good of the community.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: apl68 on October 01, 2022, 08:35:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 29, 2022, 06:18:57 PM
I confess I have been doing alot of thinking about this issue, some of which I had been doing before this thread started (this incident for instance, with the dental receptionist occurred six months ago, and I have actually discussed it with my psychotherapist, and with several friends), and all the more so because my view of my faith is one of an almost Anabaptist-like view of the need for humility and acceptance of life, ('demut', and 'gelassenheit').   That said, the Bible certainly does not advocate absolute egalitarianism (I could cite some passages if anyone wishes), and there are cultural and societal norms at play, which, like it or not, are different for 50-something New Englanders than 20-somethings from, ahem, (remember this receptionist spoke with a distinctive accent demonstrating her membership in a large, increasing, immigrant demographic in my city).   Marshy did an excellent job, further, in clarifying and explaining the issues involved here, and those posters who seem to suggest that it is my responsibility to adjust to changing cultural norms, esp those held by Gen Zers of all ethnicities, ignore the fact that, well, *this is my home state, I am not the immigrant here, and I am a 50-something paying customer*.  It is not my responsibility to conform to the changing mores of young people, esp newcomer ones.  As I mentioned when I described how I told my hs students never to address female profs as 'Miss'/ etc, it is irrelevant whether Gen Zer wants to call her such, thinks he should be allowed to do so, etc.-- she is the authority figure and deserves respect, and if she does not wish to be so addressed, Gen Zer must not address her as such, period.   And she gets to rebuke him if he does.  (For years, stretching back to the old fora, many female professors here have made their antipathy to being so addressed crystal clear!)  Now I do not exactly know, further, why it is that  I greatly dislike being addressed as 'dear', 'honey', 'buddy', etc., (though I have my suspicions) but that I do dislike this, is crystal clear as well-- truth is, it infuriates me.  Just today I was having a decent lunch in a casual dining cafe I have visited on occasion (it is not really very close to me), when the waiter, otherwise excellent, called me 'buddy'-- he was probably maybe 20-25 years younger than I-- I said nothing, but, well... He should not have called me 'buddy'.   I am paying to be called 'sir', because, well, since I was a wee sprite, I have been raised in a cultural milieu which has taught me that juniors, especially in professional service situations, do not address elders, esp paying customers, with cheeky frathouse familiarity.   Indeed, even from a purely pragmatic sense, it is better for those servers to address those older customers with due traditional respect, as it lessens the likelihood of getting those people mad at them, and can even counter a multitude of sins, as it were).  I get that the world changes, and many of those changes are for the better.   Many, but not all, and I do not have to like those bad changes, nor blindly tolerate or accept them.

Kay, there's a disconnect here.  You preface this post speaking of a Christian need for humility and acceptance.  Which is absolutely true. 

The rest of it is all about how you, as a person over 50, native-born citizen, paying customer, etc., are entitled to respect and deference from others.  And how you are unable and unwilling to reconcile yourself to receiving less than your just due in terms of respect and deference.  It's not just this post.  This has been a pretty consistent major theme throughout your career at the Fora.  You give the impression of being somebody who has spent many years deeply disappointed at a life and a world that have failed to provide you with the things that you, by virtue of birth, right conduct, hard work, and education have earned and are entitled to.

You know what?  I get it.  I've very often felt the same way.  The particular pet peeve of not being addressed correctly by "social inferiors" is not a problem for me.  Different upbringing and culture, I guess.  But I have spent a great deal of my life feeling that I have received a raw deal.  I was raised by a decent family, and have lived a life of correct behavior, and worked hard for many years to get an education.  All of which I was given to understand entitled one to expect things like a good marriage, children, and career success.  I've in fact received none of these things, except, to a limited extent and way overdue, a little bit of the last.  And so I've spent much of my life unhappy and resentful because I didn't receive my due.

I've come to recognize that this mindset is pretty foolish in light of my Christian faith.  Jesus, the Christ, is God.  Who descended to Earth as a tiny human being, and let himself be put to death by tiny human beings--all for the sake of redeeming the sins of tiny human beings.  Who in no way deserved it.  Now that is somebody receiving less than his due!  Yet he did it, out of love.  He offers us forgiveness and a chance to be with God.  How do we receive that?  By following Jesus and imitating his example of humility.  See Philippians 2:5-11.

Remembering all this has been very good for me.  It's incredibly freeing to give up the stubborn belief that I "deserve" better than I've had in life, and the wounded pride, and just accept having to live a sub-optimal life for a few decades as a fair tradeoff for someday being with God.  And meanwhile learning to enjoy loving other people, instead of raging to myself that I can't make them bend to my will.  Call me crazy, but if more people had this sort of attitude I think all the hurt feelings and anger and cultural misunderstandings that everybody has been complaining about on this thread would stop seeming like an important issue.

Please get help letting this go, Kay.  Not from some therapist, but from Jesus.  He's ready to offer it.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: fishbrains on October 01, 2022, 08:56:34 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 01, 2022, 08:35:58 AM
Please get help letting this go, Kay.  Not from some therapist, but from Jesus.  He's ready to offer it.

Yes. Dude, just let it go.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mamselle on October 01, 2022, 10:27:06 AM
+1

M.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on October 01, 2022, 08:57:45 PM
Ok, random additional thoughts and responses:

1) those like apl who are reminding me that I should give this up, especially as a Christian, are not necessarily wrong, given the realities of life.   That said, the traditonal attitudes I have go straight back to the Puritans, and, really, almost all Christian sects prior to maybe the last 50 years or so.   I can make a biblical case, pretty solidly, for the need for due deference to social superiors, elders, etc., esp in service/ professional circumstances.   Irrespective of my current or recent professional and personal realities, well, I really can make that case.   And most of you really have no notion of what it is like to work a retail job in a place like Rusty City, dealing every day with rough, slimy characters who behave poorly, treat the help like sewer scum, etc.   Methinks most of you could not deal with such employment for a week, without a major epiphany resulting, at least.

2) Just the same day I was 'buddied' by the young waiter, I went to my eye doc.   Now her practice's patient demographic skews older, due largely to the nature of the work she does, but most of the techs there, the people who put eyedrops in eyes, check your eyechart performance, etc., well... they regularly speak to patients as though they were children.   Think of the article cited here by the woman who noted how, well, unacceptable this is... even if the young healthcare provider does not like this.   Mr. Smith is 50 years older than you, young lady--- you will not address him as 'dear', 'honey', or even 'John'.   Period.

3) Now recall that I mentioned I had told students never to address female professors as 'Miss', etc.  I did this largely motivated by the regular extremely negative reaction evinced over the years on the fora, from, well, female professors who have made it clear they view such behavior as *extremely unacceptable*.  IOW, well, irrespective of the reality that I have overreacted to such behavior myself, issues which I am working on, as I said, well, ahem.... we would not be having this conversation were I a woman.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: fishbrains on October 01, 2022, 09:51:00 PM
Bruh, no one's saying you're all that wrong. We're saying life is too short to worry about this silly $hit with people you see once or twice a year (or maybe even in a lifetime).

Students using "Miss" with a professor they see on a regular basis and may want to develop a professional relationship with for their own advantage is a bit different.

Correct people if you want to regarding how you're addressed, but don't bust a gut over it all. Or blow-out a spleen over it if you want to; it's your life.

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 02, 2022, 06:29:19 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 01, 2022, 08:57:45 PM

3) Now recall that I mentioned I had told students never to address female professors as 'Miss', etc.  I did this largely motivated by the regular extremely negative reaction evinced over the years on the fora, from, well, female professors who have made it clear they view such behavior as *extremely unacceptable*.  IOW, well, irrespective of the reality that I have overreacted to such behavior myself, issues which I am working on, as I said, well, ahem.... we would not be having this conversation were I a woman.

The institutional context matters. I can tell student to address me as professor or dr. If I tell the person at the airline counter they need to call me Dr. Caracal, I'm a pompous jerk.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on October 02, 2022, 08:18:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 01, 2022, 08:57:45 PM

3) Now recall that I mentioned I had told students never to address female professors as 'Miss', etc.  I did this largely motivated by the regular extremely negative reaction evinced over the years on the fora, from, well, female professors who have made it clear they view such behavior as *extremely unacceptable*.  IOW, well, irrespective of the reality that I have overreacted to such behavior myself, issues which I am working on, as I said, well, ahem.... we would not be having this conversation were I a woman.

I've had students address me as "Miss", which doesn't seem to be an uncommon practice in NYC. I introduce myself as Professor Lastname on the first day of class, but have never corrected students for addressing me as "Miss", or in a couple of instances "Madam". Other professors/instructors most likely have similar experiences but don't bother to correct students or complain about these terms of address because the students are being quite respectful as evident from their interactions with the professor.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 02, 2022, 08:22:11 AM
If you are a male professor and you suggest it should OK for a student to address a female professor as 'Miss...' you're gonna get bricks thrown at you. Not that I would want to, but just saying.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so (it brings to mind, further, the comment made earlier by the person who noted that the professors in his dept do not seem to mind being addressed by their first names by grad students-- when I was in grad school in the 90s, our dept faculty was split between several 30-somethings, who all told students to address them by their first names, and a bunch of 50+ers who, well, did not.   Now the older profs did not say, 'do not address me by my first name', and many if not most of the grad students did do exactly that, but, well, these older professors were still pretty clearly underwhelmed by such behavior.   I myself, following my Miss Manners training (which of course reinforced my prior mindset), never did this myself, nor felt myself put upon by having to call such professors as, well, "professor"). 

2) WRT not expecting the subway ticket taker to address me as 'Doctor', this should be obvious, and of course nothing I have said suggests I expect anyone I encounter in public to address me as that.   'Mr. Sixteen' is fine, though I admit that I would rather have service personnel young enough to be my kid address me as 'sir'.  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do).  As to other people in my social and related orbits, I generally expect, and get without asking for, nor without any semblance of irritation, 'Dr. Sixteen', from  young adults in church, many of whom are my former Christian school students, and 'Dr. Kay', from many of the other church folks (I do not really like this but I understand the sentiment and have never mentioned it to anyone), whereas it would never cross my mind to address my (admittedly 60-something) pastor as anything but 'Pastor'.  And when I am at my retail job, it is first name basis all around, even with the store manager (this is WM corporate culture, probably owing to Arkansas practice-- I have worked for New England retailers who clearly still expect managers to be addressed with titles, and clock-punchers, first name), and, indeed, I also generally do not tell most of the people I work with what level of ed I have.

4) I suppose I could be snarky here and say " don't address me as 'dude', or 'bruh', but, well, ah..."  Dagnabbit, I just do not like being addressed with such terms, at least not by folks to whom I have not extended permission to do so.   I get that I may be overreacting owing to my retail experience (though, in truth, I do clearly recall having these thoughts long before I ever took this job), and that I am a socially conservative guy from an area of the country, however much it now is noted for progressive views on things like abortion and sexual mores, is perhaps the most traditional and deferential region of the country, New England actually much more similar to Old England here, and, well, my views have perhaps also hardened somewhat as I have aged into the 'call me sir' period of life.   
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on October 03, 2022, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.

As for physicians, I've never encountered physicians who have been threatened by my degree. They are probably aware of the patient's educational background because often times I recall having to write down one's profession when filling out the forms. I once had to demonstrate to my orthopedist how I taught my classes because of my back problems. The physical therapists with whom I am on a first-name basis do know that I teach college students because of the forms I have to fill out and the intake sessions. My PCP and another specialist are also aware of my degree because we start the sessions with a brief catching-up chat. Most medical practitioners in my experience see me as a patient and treat me professionally and medically as a patient. My PCP invariably uses his first name when calling me about the results of a test or when responding to my questions on the patient portal. I've never found my educational background to be a factor in getting the medical treatment that I need other than the orthopedist and physical therapists providing the treatment that I need to be able to walk around a classroom, stand, bend, and do things that we normally do in a classroom.

I suspect how one interacts with students and physicians depends not only on the culture of the institution/city, but also on the medical providers themselves.

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 03, 2022, 06:28:12 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 03, 2022, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.


I'm sure you're right. They intend to be polite by saying 'Miss' and one would be correct to hear them that way. God bless them as far as I'm concerned.  But they have black privilege. They are exempt from oppressor, sexism or microaggressor status. Those charges are for white American or European males, occasionally females, e.g. 'Karens.'
Also of interest: Black people living in the USA are also statistically less approving of homosexual marriage, transgenderism than are white people, according to anonymous polling that I've read.
What's the explanation for that? Pick what you like I guess. My theory is the pressure to be woke does not reach them in its full potency.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Langue_doc on October 03, 2022, 06:53:35 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 03, 2022, 06:28:12 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 03, 2022, 05:40:46 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.


I'm sure you're right. They intend to be polite by saying 'Miss' and one would be correct to hear them that way. God bless them as far as I'm concerned.  But they have black privilege. They are exempt from oppressor, sexism or microaggressor status. Those charges are for white American males, occasionally females, e.g. 'Karens.'
Also of interest: Black people living in the USA are also statistically less approving of homosexual marriage, transgenderism than are white people, according to anonymous polling that I've read.
What's the explanation for that? Pick what you like I guess. My theory is the pressure to be woke does not reach them in its full potency.

Nope, nope, nope!

These classes are truly multicultural, with students from all over the world. Of the four dark-skinned students in one of the classes, two were from Haiti, one who had immigrated from a French-speaking African country, (Guinea, I think), and one from the West Indies. The last mentioned was quite disruptive, not because of the country of origin, but because of his personality. Other students had immigrated from countries in South America, the Middle East/North Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and the Philippines. Most of the students had jobs and were a pleasure to teach. I recall having students who worked in stores, as nannies (one student in another class reported that her employers had bought her a laptop when she told them that she had enrolled in college), in the airport (I encountered a student at JFK as I was getting off a red-eye flight), in medical offices, and in fast-food places.

Mahog, you should move to NYC!
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 03, 2022, 07:04:59 AM
They're multicultural, sure, but they're still everything but lilly white Yankee ofays. That's why they get the benefit of a doubt*.

On edit: BTW I live in a big city and I teach students from all over the world.

*good intentions attributed to them
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 03, 2022, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.

Professional titles don't usually extend past the particular professional setting anymore, unless you're the local doctor in a small town or something.

I'd be perfectly happy to have students call me by my first name if it was standard practice. However, since it isn't standard practice, it would carry implications that I want to avoid. That's sort of the point with this whole thread. Forms of address exist within social and linguistic contexts.

You can always ask someone to call you something or not call you something. If you're demanding that waiters in restaurants or strangers on the street not use common, inoffensive  forms of address because you think those don't indicate proper deference, you're probably just going to end up looking like a jerk. If you want to ask students in your class to use the standard form of address for you, that is more likely to yield concrete results.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Puget on October 03, 2022, 11:34:40 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 03, 2022, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 02, 2022, 05:25:19 PM
Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.

Professional titles don't usually extend past the particular professional setting anymore, unless you're the local doctor in a small town or something.

I'd be perfectly happy to have students call me by my first name if it was standard practice. However, since it isn't standard practice, it would carry implications that I want to avoid. That's sort of the point with this whole thread. Forms of address exist within social and linguistic contexts.

You can always ask someone to call you something or not call you something. If you're demanding that waiters in restaurants or strangers on the street not use common, inoffensive  forms of address because you think those don't indicate proper deference, you're probably just going to end up looking like a jerk. If you want to ask students in your class to use the standard form of address for you, that is more likely to yield concrete results.

Yah, professional titles only apply where they are relevant to the particular context and relationship. It would be weird for anyone who isn't your student to call you "Professor" or "Doctor". It is a role title, not one that travels outside that role to other aspects of your life.

As to the idea that MDs are "intimidated" by people with PhDs, well, that seems like a bit of an ego-boosting fantasy. . .
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM
We seem to have lost that part of the discussion that focused on the inherent layers of sexism implied in the use of overly-familiar greeting patterns, which was the context in which the objections were first raised in the 70s/80s, as I recall them (yes, I was there, then).

The issue, then, at least, was that such forms of address, especially from a male or active (self-perceived) partner towards a female or unwelcoming target of their attentions, was that it was an eerie form of 'grooming' or semi-seductive address that implied pseudo-affection (or even true, but unwanted or unchecked) affection.

In reverse, it had a kind of flirtatious aspect, which women were starting to call out as unworthy of themselves, if they wanted to be perceived as something more substantial than arm candy.

That's the aspect of it I still find objectionable, and I don't think it's ever completely gone away. I know guys in the pick-up bands I encountered in general business gigs at the time had to sometimes be beaten off with a saxophone because if you were younger and even somewhat talented they wanted to approach you on other levels--again, wanted or not.

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"

M.   
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 03, 2022, 01:24:23 PM
Random stuff:

1.   You could take men out of the picture entirely, make all women homosexual, and the situation will still be unfair. People who are more attractive than average are in a noticeably different situation from people who look average or less attractive. They get more attention when they find it flattering or can capitalize on it, and they also get more attention when it is nothing but a bother. The problem isn't just men. It's sex.

2.   I'm pretty sure I have lost employment because I wasn't available to the boss as a romantic partner. She did not appreciate my decision. I was quite surprised. Well, I'm not exactly a hunk.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 04, 2022, 09:21:55 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting. 

I saw a documentary a few years back, about women (In Afghanistan, maybe?) who wear burqus. But when they are alone with other women, they take off their burqas and underneath they're wearing designer clothing, jewellery, makeup etc. Clearly, that's not inspired by men. That's entirely for other women.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.

Guys, try a pinch of evolutionary biology! :-)
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: ciao_yall on October 04, 2022, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.

Guys, try a pinch of evolutionary biology! :-)

You mean like in the past, when men were the ones who paid a lot more attention (than women) on how they dressed?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: nebo113 on October 04, 2022, 12:12:29 PM
Seems to me that some folks on this thread are mainsplaining to women why women dress the way they do and for whom.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 04, 2022, 12:25:51 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 04, 2022, 12:12:29 PM
Seems to me that some folks on this thread are mainsplaining to women why women dress the way they do and for whom.

Gender non-binary-splaining, in my case, if/when such explaining does occur.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 12:39:55 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 04, 2022, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.

Guys, try a pinch of evolutionary biology! :-)

You mean like in the past, when men were the ones who paid a lot more attention (than women) on how they dressed?

Every bird species I can think of, if there's any flamboyant feathers, colors or neck puffery going on, it's always the male birds. I'm sure there are lots of just so stories about why humans are different but I doubt I'd find any of them particularly, since as ciao says, this pretty clearly isn't some universal thing in human society.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 12:49:10 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 04, 2022, 09:21:55 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting. 

I saw a documentary a few years back, about women (In Afghanistan, maybe?) who wear burqus. But when they are alone with other women, they take off their burqas and underneath they're wearing designer clothing, jewellery, makeup etc. Clearly, that's not inspired by men. That's entirely for other women.

I don't get that many compliments about my clothes, probably because nobody much cares what middle aged professor's wear, but almost all the compliments I have received have been from other people who wear men's clothes. That's not any more surprising than if I said that the people who complimented me on my backhand were other people who played tennis. Those are the people who are likely to have a lot of detailed thoughts about backhands.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 12:39:55 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 04, 2022, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 04, 2022, 06:58:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 03, 2022, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: mamselle on October 03, 2022, 01:04:42 PM

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"


It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.

Guys, try a pinch of evolutionary biology! :-)

You mean like in the past, when men were the ones who paid a lot more attention (than women) on how they dressed?

Every bird species I can think of, if there's any flamboyant feathers, colors or neck puffery going on, it's always the male birds. I'm sure there are lots of just so stories about why humans are different but I doubt I'd find any of them particularly, since as ciao says, this pretty clearly isn't some universal thing in human society.

Yeah, evolutionary biology can't make very specific predictions on account reproductive success also depends on environment and blind luck in addition to behavior. So we get a lot of variety. Though I believe ciao is largely incorrect, even today there are differences in how much weight men put on clothing all over the world. And as Marsh pointed out, even the hidden under the burqa exists, an observation confirmed long ago by my wife, the doctor.

But to get back to the original, more specific question, in public commentary on male and female musical performers, compare e.g.

Hilary Hahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNJ43S1RIQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mNJ43S1RIQ) and her jingle jangle with

Itzhak Perlman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg) in his tux.

What in hell is a commentator gonna comment about Perlman's suit? Hahn's jingle jangle positively invite commentary! And she was not forced to wear that stuff. The operative question is why she is wearing it!

Then take this female performer from Iceland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT_63UntRJE&t=35s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT_63UntRJE&t=35s) Very unalluring dress, properly so for a classical concert, but a whole lot of skin! Why? If I showed that much skin, crowds would disperse!
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 04, 2022, 01:43:03 PM
Fortunately gender is now not a binary situation but only a continuum. So neither Perlman nor Hahn is favored or discriminated against vis-à-vis societal expectations. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 05, 2022, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 01:08:33 PM


Itzhak Perlman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg) in his tux.

What in hell is a commentator gonna comment about Perlman's suit? Hahn's jingle jangle positively invite commentary! And she was not forced to wear that stuff. The operative question is why she is wearing it!



There actually probably is a lot to say about his tux. I'm pretty sure it's bespoke. The lines are pretty clean-even though he's contorting his body in ways you wouldn't normally be doing in a tux if you weren't playing a violin. If you look at the arm holes, they seem to be cut much wider than what you would normally see in men's tailored clothing. If you're wearing a normally proportioned tailored coat, the thing, you aren't that limited in arm movement, but the thing you can't really do with ease is cross your arms around in front in the way someone does when they play a violin. Somebody has to have really known what they are doing to make that work. If they just cut extra wide arms without modifying the suit in other ways it would look pretty silly.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mamselle on October 05, 2022, 07:11:20 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 04, 2022, 12:12:29 PM
Seems to me that some folks on this thread are mainsplaining to women why women dress the way they do and for whom.

Yep.

And the point wasn't about clothes, it was about how certain forms of address can be subtle ways of grooming victims, or maintaining categories of submissive status among various groups or classes of people.

Which was somehow, conveniently, passed over.

M.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on October 05, 2022, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 05, 2022, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 01:08:33 PM


Itzhak Perlman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg) in his tux.

What in hell is a commentator gonna comment about Perlman's suit? Hahn's jingle jangle positively invite commentary! And she was not forced to wear that stuff. The operative question is why she is wearing it!



There actually probably is a lot to say about his tux. I'm pretty sure it's bespoke. The lines are pretty clean-even though he's contorting his body in ways you wouldn't normally be doing in a tux if you weren't playing a violin. If you look at the arm holes, they seem to be cut much wider than what you would normally see in men's tailored clothing. If you're wearing a normally proportioned tailored coat, the thing, you aren't that limited in arm movement, but the thing you can't really do with ease is cross your arms around in front in the way someone does when they play a violin. Somebody has to have really known what they are doing to make that work. If they just cut extra wide arms without modifying the suit in other ways it would look pretty silly.

That must be broadcast to a wider audience! :-)

Here's somebody who can also swing arms around while violining:

Anne Sophie Mutter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc) Note the quantity of skin. It's all voluntary. Solicitation of public comment is obviously intentional.

I suppose Itzhak Perlman could go topless!
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: secundem_artem on October 05, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 05, 2022, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 05, 2022, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 01:08:33 PM


Itzhak Perlman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg) in his tux.

What in hell is a commentator gonna comment about Perlman's suit? Hahn's jingle jangle positively invite commentary! And she was not forced to wear that stuff. The operative question is why she is wearing it!



There actually probably is a lot to say about his tux. I'm pretty sure it's bespoke. The lines are pretty clean-even though he's contorting his body in ways you wouldn't normally be doing in a tux if you weren't playing a violin. If you look at the arm holes, they seem to be cut much wider than what you would normally see in men's tailored clothing. If you're wearing a normally proportioned tailored coat, the thing, you aren't that limited in arm movement, but the thing you can't really do with ease is cross your arms around in front in the way someone does when they play a violin. Somebody has to have really known what they are doing to make that work. If they just cut extra wide arms without modifying the suit in other ways it would look pretty silly.

That must be broadcast to a wider audience! :-)

Here's somebody who can also swing arms around while violining:

Anne Sophie Mutter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc) Note the quantity of skin. It's all voluntary. Solicitation of public comment is obviously intentional.

I suppose Itzhak Perlman could go topless!

Wut?  I see more skin on my female students pretty much every day.  Belly shirts, spandex shorts (usually with PINK) written across the arse.  It's never occurred to me that there was any kind of solicitation of comments intended.  In one on one meetings with such students my internal mantra is "Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes."  Comments, I strongly suspect, are decidedly unwelcome.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 05, 2022, 02:25:40 PM
QuoteWut?  I see more skin on my female students pretty much every day.  Belly shirts, spandex shorts (usually with PINK) written across the arse.  It's never occurred to me that there was any kind of solicitation of comments intended.  In one on one meetings with such students my internal mantra is "Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes."  Comments, I strongly suspect, are decidedly unwelcome.
\

So the clothes are there in the mall, and they can be purchased by young women who want comments, don't want comments, want better grades, want clothes that can be donned in 2 1/2 minutes, want to cause you to think things that shouldn't be voiced for the fun of it, want to be like their girlfriends, or...
These days on campus my rule is I may not comment an another's appearance other than to say 'you look well.'
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: dismalist on October 05, 2022, 02:37:57 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 05, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: dismalist on October 05, 2022, 11:29:18 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 05, 2022, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 04, 2022, 01:08:33 PM


Itzhak Perlman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokCgWPRZPg) in his tux.

What in hell is a commentator gonna comment about Perlman's suit? Hahn's jingle jangle positively invite commentary! And she was not forced to wear that stuff. The operative question is why she is wearing it!



There actually probably is a lot to say about his tux. I'm pretty sure it's bespoke. The lines are pretty clean-even though he's contorting his body in ways you wouldn't normally be doing in a tux if you weren't playing a violin. If you look at the arm holes, they seem to be cut much wider than what you would normally see in men's tailored clothing. If you're wearing a normally proportioned tailored coat, the thing, you aren't that limited in arm movement, but the thing you can't really do with ease is cross your arms around in front in the way someone does when they play a violin. Somebody has to have really known what they are doing to make that work. If they just cut extra wide arms without modifying the suit in other ways it would look pretty silly.

That must be broadcast to a wider audience! :-)

Here's somebody who can also swing arms around while violining:

Anne Sophie Mutter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_7lbsCKUc) Note the quantity of skin. It's all voluntary. Solicitation of public comment is obviously intentional.

I suppose Itzhak Perlman could go topless!

Wut?  I see more skin on my female students pretty much every day.  Belly shirts, spandex shorts (usually with PINK) written across the arse.  It's never occurred to me that there was any kind of solicitation of comments intended.  In one on one meetings with such students my internal mantra is "Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes.  Look at their eyes."  Comments, I strongly suspect, are decidedly unwelcome.

Sure. Broadcasting to various audiences! [You just got caught in the flak. :-)]

I merely suggest that female musical performers choose their attire to maximize benefits to themselves. Money for sure. But why money? Charlie Darwin might claim that the benefit is competition for reproductive fitness.

Talking about it helps -- the chat increases market size!

Put differently, there is nothing sinister going on here.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mamselle on October 05, 2022, 02:41:02 PM
Except the effort to deflect the topic away from the actual point...

Charmers are dangerous people, and they're among those who use such forms of address.

M.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
want to cause you to think things that shouldn't be voiced

Perhaps a burka might be appropriate to minimize those urges.....

I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced.  Have you never seen a female in a bikini?  Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  A woman in a tight dress....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in a short skirt....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?   A voluptuous woman.....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in skinny jeans...Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  Are women still objects unless in burkas?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 05, 2022, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
want to cause you to think things that shouldn't be voiced

Perhaps a burka might be appropriate to minimize those urges.....

I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced.  Have you never seen a female in a bikini?  Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  A woman in a tight dress....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in a short skirt....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?   A voluptuous woman.....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in skinny jeans...Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  Are women still objects unless in burkas?

Any of you men reading care to handle these questions?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: fishbrains on October 06, 2022, 03:34:09 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 05, 2022, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
want to cause you to think things that shouldn't be voiced

Perhaps a burka might be appropriate to minimize those urges.....

I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced.  Have you never seen a female in a bikini?  Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  A woman in a tight dress....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in a short skirt....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?   A voluptuous woman.....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in skinny jeans...Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  Are women still objects unless in burkas?

Any of you men reading care to handle these questions?
Ummm . . . yeah . . . so how about that Bill's game on Sunday?
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 06, 2022, 04:22:49 AM
Quote from: mamselle on October 05, 2022, 02:41:02 PM
Except the effort to deflect the topic away from the actual point...

Charmers are dangerous people, and they're among those who use such forms of address.

M.

Dear? If a professor addresses a student as dear, that is creepy. For a waiter, it is decidedly not and is usually a gender neutral form of address.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 06, 2022, 05:05:12 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced. 

So "supposedly educated males" ought somehow be able to not think about anything they shouldn't?

Go ahead and try it. "Don't think of an elephant."

Not acting on thoughts is something people have control over. People can even discipline themselves to not dwell on certain thoughts. No-one can control the random thoughts that enter their minds.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Caracal on October 06, 2022, 05:43:58 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 06, 2022, 05:05:12 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced. 

So "supposedly educated males" ought somehow be able to not think about anything they shouldn't?

Go ahead and try it. "Don't think of an elephant."

Not acting on thoughts is something people have control over. People can even discipline themselves to not dwell on certain thoughts. No-one can control the random thoughts that enter their minds.

The trope being referenced was that women are responsible for creepy male behavior because of what they wear-or that they should be shamed because supposedly what they wear causes men to have sexual thoughts. You're right, of course, that nobody really cares about stray thoughts, unless people insist on voicing those thoughts aloud in inappropriate settings. Noticing a violinists bare arms doesn't hurt anyone, but writing about them in your review of her performance does.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 06, 2022, 05:55:09 AM
The
Quote from: Caracal on October 06, 2022, 05:43:58 AM

The trope being referenced was that women are responsible for creepy male behavior because of what they wear-or that they should be shamed because supposedly what they wear causes men to have sexual thoughts.

I think Marshy knows that. He just posted something that didn't particularly meet the requirement for outrage.

ETA: "She started a heat wave by letting her seat wave." Cancel that lecherous old Irving Berlin


Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: marshwiggle on October 06, 2022, 07:02:12 AM
Quote from: Caracal on October 06, 2022, 05:43:58 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 06, 2022, 05:05:12 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced. 

So "supposedly educated males" ought somehow be able to not think about anything they shouldn't?

Go ahead and try it. "Don't think of an elephant."

Not acting on thoughts is something people have control over. People can even discipline themselves to not dwell on certain thoughts. No-one can control the random thoughts that enter their minds.

The trope being referenced was that women are responsible for creepy male behavior because of what they wear-or that they should be shamed because supposedly what they wear causes men to have sexual thoughts.

But that was the odd thing. The complaint was about males "seeing" the scarlet letter and "thinking" things that shouldn't be voiced. It specifically did not refer to behaviour. Academics of all people should recognize the vital importance of that distinction.

Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: Kron3007 on October 06, 2022, 10:32:04 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on October 05, 2022, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on October 05, 2022, 04:45:49 PM
want to cause you to think things that shouldn't be voiced

Perhaps a burka might be appropriate to minimize those urges.....

I am appalled that supposedly educated males  seem to think that today's female attire causes them to see the scarlet letter, to think things that shouldn't be voiced.  Have you never seen a female in a bikini?  Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  A woman in a tight dress....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in a short skirt....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?   A voluptuous woman.....Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do? A woman in skinny jeans...Do you "think things that shouldn't be voiced" when you do?  Are women still objects unless in burkas?

Any of you men reading care to handle these questions?

I think all sorts of things that shouldn't be voiced (not just in respect to this topic), so I don't voice them.  I can't stop my brain, it has a mind of its own, but I can decide how to act.  I am a normal human.

I can only imagine everyone has thoughts that should not be voiced, it would be weird if you didn't. 

For clarity, this dosn't justify any unwanted actions or make anyone responsible for the thoughts of others.  It is just human nature.  We are educated, not robots.

   
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: mahagonny on October 06, 2022, 10:50:57 AM
I promise I won't give voice to any prurient lustful thoughts that I'm not having because of your provocative dress.

I promise not to have any...never mind.
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: secundem_artem on October 13, 2022, 01:14:47 PM
Kay made it clear he does not care for informal forms of address when in a professional setting like a doctor's office.  Turns out the docs don't like it either.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/health/doctors-first-names.html?action=click&algo=bandit-alpha-decay-0.4-eng30s-shadow-lda-unique&alpha=0.02&block=trending_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=803690582&impression_id=cc3c5f38-4b32-11ed-aec5-ed9f1597fbc4&index=0&pgtype=Article&pool=pool%2F91fcf81c-4fb0-49ff-bd57-a24647c85ea1&region=footer&req_id=576449165&shadow_vec_sim=0.21848352209693883&surface=eos-most-popular-story&variant=2_alpha-bandit-decay-0.4-eng30s-shadow-refined-lda-unique
Title: Re: Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?
Post by: paultuttle on October 18, 2022, 07:48:32 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on September 27, 2022, 06:39:18 AM
Quote from: paultuttle on September 26, 2022, 07:49:13 AM
Being a tall, deep-voiced, straight-appearing gay Southern man, I have to confess that I've deployed "honey," "sugar," and other such overly-sweet diminutives a not insignificant number of times over the years against (who else?) straight male homophobes.

Freaks them the hell out or else ticks them off abominably, let me tell you.


Doesn't it occur to you that you might be doing a disservice to other gay men who don't have a taste for your kind of mischief?

In this one way, mahoganny, you and I are very similar: Sometimes I just don't give a damn.

(Although in my case, it tends to be only when I'm pushed past my limit, instead of a 24/7/365 way of dealing with the world.)