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#31
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by Parasaurolophus - April 22, 2024, 03:23:14 PMQuote from: spork on April 22, 2024, 11:07:37 AMI was being, as my immigrant Arab Muslim wife would put it, facetious.
There haven't been protests against wars in Ethiopia, Sudan, or Ukraine. Gaza is a cause célèbre.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2024, 01:24:00 PMThe standard answer is that Israel is an important ally in an oil-rich and unstable part of the world. It makes the news. We have many people who have relocated here from Israel and Muslim countries. They also make the news with their extremism. Africa?
Crucially, Israel is a client state which receives enormous subsidies from the United States--along with the very weapons they are using to willfully murder Palestinians and annex their land, and not to mention the extensive diplomatic cover the US has given them at the UN. That's just not true of Ethiopia, Ukraine, or Sudan. It's entirely appropriate to try to exert pressure on one's own government when that government (1) is so heavily (if indirectly) involved, and (2) has the diplomatic power to affect the conditions in question.
Remember, also, that public officials in Texas have to swear an oath to Israel. That alone shows that the relationship between the two countries is not the usual kind of thing between foreign countries.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2024, 11:24:04 AMSo if I'm upset that my boss didn't give me a raise, can I blockade the doors to her kids' daycare (with her kids inside) until she changes her mind?
That's a non sequitur, and you know it.
In the case of a strike, what you can do is band together with the other employees who are upset and refuse to work--or to allow replacements to work--until the management negotiates with you. You can block access to the workplace to encourage others not to undermine your strike (though you obviously may not physically remove anyone who wishes to cross your picket line). If it's just you, you're shit out of luck. If it's a couple hundred of you, the boss had better listen.
QuoteIf voters are upset at an election results, can they blockade a railway, port, or major highway until it gets overturned?
Sure. And, as you know from past discussion, I'm absolutely happy to extend the same courtesy to the other side, even when I think their cause is moronic. And that's because I firmly believe in the right to free speech (although, again, you'll recall that I'm not a Millian absolutist).
#32
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by secundem_artem - April 22, 2024, 02:48:17 PMTime to turn a fire hose on these fools and give 'em a good soaking.
I can well imagine people having a well thought out level of support for either side. But people who are so smugly full of righteous certainty that theirs is the only just cause get no sympathy from me.
I can well imagine people having a well thought out level of support for either side. But people who are so smugly full of righteous certainty that theirs is the only just cause get no sympathy from me.
#33
General Discussion / The travertine fossil
Last post by jimbogumbo - April 22, 2024, 02:46:15 PM #34
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by Hibush - April 22, 2024, 02:32:53 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2024, 07:57:41 AMQuote from: Hibush on April 22, 2024, 07:51:05 AMSome of the students seem to be engaging in the time-honored protest ritual of staying put and chanting while getting arrested for trespassing (charges that will be dropped). That exercise has not been productive in the past, so I don't expect it to be at Yale or Columbia.
Any action that prevents normal, necessary activity from continuing until the protesters leave is extortion, and needs to be treated as such.
Just being in the way is not going to meet the threshold for extortion. They have to threaten force. They also have to want something, but that is not the case for impeded passers by.
Interestingly, my handy legal dictionary also notes that extortion includes when "under the color of office, a public or private authority .., abuse{s} their authority." In that case, the campus administrators and police have to be careful about threatening to knock heads the old fashioned way.
#35
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by Langue_doc - April 22, 2024, 01:35:41 PMQuoteLive Updates: N.Y.U. Orders Protesters to Disperse as Tensions Rise at U.S. Colleges
#36
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by marshwiggle - April 22, 2024, 01:32:00 PMQuote from: Liquidambar on April 22, 2024, 01:11:37 PMQuote from: dismalist on April 22, 2024, 12:29:55 PMIt boils down to: Who owns the street? The street is free for the brown battalions? Surely not.
You'd be surprised how restrictively the right to assemble can legally be handled. You can't just cause inconvenience. Police permits are required for some actions. Here are some details from the ACLU
Thanks for the link. From there...QuoteYour rights are strongest in what are known as "traditional public forums," such as streets, sidewalks, and parks. You also likely have the right to speak out on other public property, like plazas in front of government buildings, as long as you are not blocking access to the government building or interfering with other purposes the property was designed for.
From this, I infer that protestors wouldn't have the right to block access to the state-owned building where I teach, nor to be so loud that teaching was impossible in my classroom. However,
One very interesting point:
QuoteCounterprotesters also have free speech rights. Police must treat protesters and counterprotesters equally. Police are permitted to keep antagonistic groups separated but should allow them to be within sight and sound of one another.
"Anything you can do, I can do." I imagine the obnoxious protesters would be deeply offended at someone doing the same things to them.
#37
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by Wahoo Redux - April 22, 2024, 01:24:00 PMQuote from: spork on April 22, 2024, 10:42:04 AMDidn't hear anything about police arresting the Ivy League students who were protesting against the Tigray war in 2020-2022, which killed a half million. Or the students who have been protesting against the civil war in Sudan, which has killed ~ 20,000 and displaced ~ 8 million. Or the students who have been protesting Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which has killed about a half million so far, and has involved the rape and torture of civilians, as well as the deportation of Ukrainian children to Russian hinterlands.
Why are the students protesting against the war in Gaza so special?
The standard answer is that Israel is an important ally in an oil-rich and unstable part of the world. It makes the news. We have many people who have relocated here from Israel and Muslim countries. They also make the news with their extremism. Africa?
I am embarrassed to admit that I know nothing of these other wars. I am sure they are in the news if I look for them, but they are certainly not headline getting. As for Ukraine, I don't think there is a lot of controversy about our role in that conflict.
#38
General Discussion / Re: Random Thoughts Anew
Last post by Wahoo Redux - April 22, 2024, 01:15:00 PMVan Halen lyrics for "Hang'em high."
Somewhere, he lost it in a turn
Now trouble seems to fit him like a glove
First come, first served, he's serving it back
He travels light, without a pack, without love
He comes from nowhere an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
Leather 'cross his thighs
Blasting out the night, his cap hides his eyes
One eye on the road, price upon his head
One ear to the ground, he's listening to the dead
He comes from nowhere an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
Blind to himself, an' he's laughing up his scheme
Looking back in anger, the city is relieved
Vision of light, child of the night passing by
Blind to himself, he's laughing up his scheme
Looking back in anger, the city is relieved
A vision of light, child of the night passing by
Leather 'cross his thigh
Blasting out the night, his cap hides his eyes
One eye on the road, price upon his head
One ear to the ground, he's listening to the dead
He comes from nowhere, an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
Somewhere, he lost it in a turn
Now trouble seems to fit him like a glove
First come, first served, he's serving it back
He travels light, without a pack, without love
He comes from nowhere an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
Leather 'cross his thighs
Blasting out the night, his cap hides his eyes
One eye on the road, price upon his head
One ear to the ground, he's listening to the dead
He comes from nowhere an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
Blind to himself, an' he's laughing up his scheme
Looking back in anger, the city is relieved
Vision of light, child of the night passing by
Blind to himself, he's laughing up his scheme
Looking back in anger, the city is relieved
A vision of light, child of the night passing by
Leather 'cross his thigh
Blasting out the night, his cap hides his eyes
One eye on the road, price upon his head
One ear to the ground, he's listening to the dead
He comes from nowhere, an' he turns on his own
Late for the hanging, yes he's headed for the moon
An' hang 'em high
#39
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by Liquidambar - April 22, 2024, 01:11:37 PMQuote from: dismalist on April 22, 2024, 12:29:55 PMIt boils down to: Who owns the street? The street is free for the brown battalions? Surely not.
You'd be surprised how restrictively the right to assemble can legally be handled. You can't just cause inconvenience. Police permits are required for some actions. Here are some details from the ACLU
Thanks for the link. From there...
QuoteYour rights are strongest in what are known as "traditional public forums," such as streets, sidewalks, and parks. You also likely have the right to speak out on other public property, like plazas in front of government buildings, as long as you are not blocking access to the government building or interfering with other purposes the property was designed for.
From this, I infer that protestors wouldn't have the right to block access to the state-owned building where I teach, nor to be so loud that teaching was impossible in my classroom. However,
QuoteShutting down a protest through a dispersal order must be law enforcement's last resort. Police may not break up a gathering unless there is a clear and present danger of riot, disorder, interference with traffic, or other immediate threat to public safety.
That sounds like the police couldn't break up a protest even if it's loud enough to interfere with classes. What happens then--the protestors would be going beyond what they're allowed to, but it wouldn't reach the point that police should intervene? If protestors were blocking the building enough to cause a safety problem, police could break up the protest, but what if they're just making everyone late to classes? It seems like the safety aspect would depend on knowing how full the building is and thus whether people could evacuate quickly enough in an emergency.
My curiosity is purely academic, since my campus doesn't have much of a protest culture. My grad school did, but most of the protests occurred in a favorite central plaza. I never had difficulty getting to my office or working even though my building was right next to the plaza.
#40
The State of Higher Ed / Re: Protests and police on cam...
Last post by dismalist - April 22, 2024, 12:29:55 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2024, 11:24:04 AMQuote from: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2024, 09:03:56 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2024, 07:57:41 AMAny action that prevents normal, necessary activity from continuing until the protesters leave is extortion, and needs to be treated as such.
This basically amounts to not supporting protest (or strike) at all. If the only acceptable protest (or strike) is an invisible one that causes no disruption whatsoever, then it's not much of a protest (or strike) at all.
So if I'm upset that my boss didn't give me a raise, can I blockade the doors to her kids' daycare (with her kids inside) until she changes her mind?
If voters are upset at an election results, can they blockade a railway, port, or major highway until it gets overturned?QuoteThat's okay--it's a position that's available in ideological space. But we shouldn't pretend that that's not what it is, or that it's somehow a 'moderate' position. It involves significant curtailment of the rights to free speech and assembly, and in ways clearly unsupported by the judicial record in most democracies.
Speech and assembly aren't the issue; but behaviour that would be illegal for purely monetary gain shouldn't become legal just because it's for moral or ideological reasons.
It boils down to: Who owns the street? The street is free for the brown battalions? Surely not.
You'd be surprised how restrictively the right to assemble can legally be handled. You can't just cause inconvenience. Police permits are required for some actions. Here are some details from the ACLU