What is your opinion on student loan forgiveness?

[marshwiggle]

FTR, I threw the price of cars around because it was specifically referred to. Since marshwiggle is in Canada, the stupendous increase in housing prices every year for the last twenty-plus years (the highest in the OECD) would be very relevant, too. Did people in thirty or forty years ago find themselves in the situation of being unable to qualify for mortgages whose monthly payments were substantially lower than their monthly rent, even with six figures down, no outstanding debts, and an income above the local average? 'Cuz I had that conversation with a bank's lending agent just a couple of years ago, and it's not one that my parents ever remember having.

FWIW, my first home buying situation: we had help from both of our mothers; we both had professional incomes and our first house was a duplex that we bought with another couple also with two incomes. So, not as different from today as people might like to suggest.

[jimbogumbo]

[
And that's one hell of of car! You can buy a tank for $48K. Here's my much preferred shopping list: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cars-trucks-suvs-less-than-25000/

You need a new list. That selection is down to around three vehicles now I think.

[dismalist]

Young people don't buy new cars any more. The average price of a new car in the '90s was $15-16k. Today, it's around $48k.

The median household income in 1993 was around $31K, and in 2021 it was around $79K when I searched "median household income [year] census." So if we're going to throw around the price of cars, we also need to keep changes in income and inflation in mind.

That's still a higher share of income, although we're now mixing averages and medians.

FTR, I threw the price of cars around because it was specifically referred to. Since marshwiggle is in Canada, the stupendous increase in housing prices every year for the last twenty-plus years (the highest in the OECD) would be very relevant, too. Did people in thirty or forty years ago find themselves in the situation of being unable to qualify for mortgages whose monthly payments were substantially lower than their monthly rent, even with six figures down, no outstanding debts, and an income above the local average? 'Cuz I had that conversation with a bank's lending agent just a couple of years ago, and it's not one that my parents ever remember having.

And that's one hell of of car! You can buy a tank for $48K. Here's my much preferred shopping list: https://www.motortrend.com/features/cars-trucks-suvs-less-than-25000/

Sure. But that's averages for you. Rising income inequality and the dramatically increasing number of millionaires and billionaires does the same thing to the average income, too. I don't know that anyone keeps track of median new or used car prices. (I guess they probably do, but I don't know where they are or how reliable the numbers are.)

To get a quick and dirty feel for welfare, use real median household income, which is way up, covid aside. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N This takes out more distributional changes than the mean.

Note that household size has fallen, so that real income per person is even higher.

How any individual price behaved is only relevant for addicts of that good, here car addicts.

Nevertheless, a fixed basket of car prices is calculated, and the price increase is only about 20% until covid.

People are better off, not just millionaires.

[mahagonny]

In the wake of President Biden's student-debt relief plan, critics are targeting the value of higher education — at both the undergraduate and graduate levels.

Although some might assign some blame to colleges and universities — which in many instances have fostered or even modeled this new illiberalism — those same institutions can play a significant role in bringing our country back from the brink of this abyss. This is particularly the case for law schools and for other institutions that embrace a liberal arts approach to education.

https://thehill.com/opinion/education/3647082-higher-ed-has-faults-but-dont-ignore-its-utility/

[jimbogumbo]

Latest estimate of cost: https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2022/09/26/cbo-student-loan-forgiveness-biden/

[mahagonny]

Lawsuit filed:  https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2022/09/27/lawsuit-may-block-bidens-power-play-cancelling-student-loan-debt/8122883001/

"The plaintiff in the case is Frank Garrison, a public interest attorney (who is now employed by PLF). Garrison lives in Indiana, one of at least six states that tax this kind of debt cancellation as income. He's already part of the congressionally approved Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, and would have had his debt forgiven after 10 years of payments – without any additional tax burden. He's already six years into payments, and those payments are capped based on his income.

Since he's a Pell Grant recipient, Garrison is eligible for $20,000 in loan forgiveness. Taking that amount off his principal, however, changes nothing for him except for giving him an immediate tax bill of more than $1,000, Kruckenberg said.

So the "forgiveness" will actually cost Garrison money and the action will be automatic – as soon as October – because of his participation in the public service program."

[Parasaurolophus]

Shouldn't he be suing Indiana instead?

[kaysixteen]

How could it possibly be that having to pay an extra grand in taxes here will counteract the value of his saving 20 grand in student loans?

[jimbogumbo]

An interactive map by state with college debt on graduation (click on the state to see institutions within that state). https://ticas.org/interactive-map/

[mahagonny]

Federal judge in Texas says no. But it helped get the democrats midterm votes I suppose. Crafty fellow, old Joe. Knowing as I do his penchant for lying, I half expected it wouldn't fly, and as a person trained in law, even finishing near the bottom of his class, he didn't expect it to. Is this the final chapter? I'd hate to have to say 'sorry, students...you've been conned.'
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-judge-in-texas-strikes-down-biden-loan-forgiveness-plan/ar-AA13Z5jv

[jimbogumbo]

Not forgiveness per se, but data about costs, aid and loans:https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/18/politics/college-costs-student-loans-federal-aid/index.html

[apl68]

Though I disagreed with the blanket nature of the program, I thought it a great shame that it has been litigated to a standstill.  Now even the most deserving aren't getting any help.