All through history, children growing up in wealthy homes never saw the need to learn how to do many tasks because there were always servants to do that. I think there is a growing segment of young people who have a similar sense of entitlement, assuming there will always be
digital "servants" to do things for them.
Some things young people don't see the need to learn to do:
- Remember things
- Calculate things
- Schedule things, and plan for contingencies, (since instant communication allows constant adaptation in real time)
(Interesting note: Lots of stories in the news lately about how "self-driving" cars are being abandoned, because it's way harder than people thought. Digital servants won't be doing everything in the forseeable future.)
Agree or disagree?
Isn't there a section in Plato's Republic decrying literacy since people will no longer have to remember anything if they can just write it down?
I have found that I remember phone numbers much less now than in the past. I can, for example, remember the phone number of my childhood home or the land lines of old friends, but I do know my parents' current cell phone numbers or my friends current cell phone numbers.
In my early professional career, I taught at a for profit college that taught electronics. One of the faculty was just as fast with a slide rule as I was with a calculator. There are a lot of things that one can do with logarithms. However, we are not really taught logarithms anymore, much less how to use a slide rule.
So some tools are replaced with other tools.
As for phone numbers, I agree. I remember my childhood phone number and I remember the rotary dial phone that my parents stood me at to dial it over and again so that I could remember it!
I remember some of the often called numbers of my coworkers 30 years ago, not because of the number, but the pattern of the 10 key pad.
HOwever, I do not know My Bride's phone number!! (I know the pattern of the last 4 but I never can seem to remember the 3 digit extension!). Should I ever have a problem with my phone, I will be in big trouble!
Assuming there will always be "tradespeople" to do things for them, some young people don't see the need to learn to:
Make their own soap
Tan their own leather
Thatch their own roof
--Someone in the Middle Ages, probably.
Ever see someone pull out a phone to divide a number by 10? Or multiply a number by 10? Should that really be necessary?
ETA: I remember a few years ago hearing high school students who didn't think learning to drive was necessary, since self-driving cars would soon be here and make it unnecessary. (Hence my pointing out the news on that above.)
I'm not so much concerned with the way people are coming to lean on phones as tools, though I avoid relying on them so much myself. My concern is with the way the tools seem to be turning into so many peoples' masters.
Quote from: jerseyjay on November 08, 2022, 09:19:31 AM
Isn't there a section in Plato's Republic decrying literacy since people will no longer have to remember anything if they can just write it down?
I have found that I remember phone numbers much less now than in the past. I can, for example, remember the phone number of my childhood home or the land lines of old friends, but I do know my parents' current cell phone numbers or my friends current cell phone numbers.
Plato was ahead of his time.
There is a report by Dalrymple https://www.scaruffi.com/phi/dalrymple.pdf (see page 7 of 9) on how a traditional bard community in Northwest India used to have to memorize thousands-of-lines-long historical poems to recite at events, but once they started learning to write them down so as to not lose the information, their capacity or drive to recall these from memory diminished.
And the study of London cabbies, whose brains actually altered in structure (increased hippocampus size) after their intensive route memorization called 'the knowledge' https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/
If the cabbies ever abandon this practice and turn to GPS, this brain structure may change back?
Quote from: apl68 on November 08, 2022, 10:38:54 AM
My concern is with the way the tools seem to be turning into so many peoples' masters.
Charles Stross has described one's phone as a centralized point of failure in modern life. That characterization really stuck with me. I've somehow managed to get along with a dumbphone hitherto, and all the various inconveniences associated with that have led me to I been consider getting a smartphone (i.e., a 'phone'). But I keep hesitating, because I don't want my life to have such a centralized point of failure. When I mislaid my old dumbphone, it was a really simple matter to cancel the plan on the old one and pay $10 or so to get a new hunk of metal with a new plan, but the website interface was built to be (in my case) so unnecessarily soothing and reassuring when I reported my phone missing, because they were expecting the average user to be facing a major catastrophe if they lost their phone.
Quote from: ergative on November 08, 2022, 11:16:02 AM
Quote from: apl68 on November 08, 2022, 10:38:54 AM
My concern is with the way the tools seem to be turning into so many peoples' masters.
Charles Stross has described one's phone as a centralized point of failure in modern life. That characterization really stuck with me. I've somehow managed to get along with a dumbphone hitherto, and all the various inconveniences associated with that have led me to I been consider getting a smartphone (i.e., a 'phone'). But I keep hesitating, because I don't want my life to have such a centralized point of failure. When I mislaid my old dumbphone, it was a really simple matter to cancel the plan on the old one and pay $10 or so to get a new hunk of metal with a new plan, but the website interface was built to be (in my case) so unnecessarily soothing and reassuring when I reported my phone missing, because they were expecting the average user to be facing a major catastrophe if they lost their phone.
Not really, at least with an iPhone. Everything is backed up to the cloud-- it is pretty simple and quick to restore everything to a new phone, no different from when you upgrade your phone. So provided you are in an area with outlets of your phone carrier around, it is a very temporary problem. And in the meantime you can access everything on your phone from your laptop, or any other device you can sign into your iCloud account from.
Quote from: poiuy on November 08, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on November 08, 2022, 09:19:31 AM
Isn't there a section in Plato's Republic decrying literacy since people will no longer have to remember anything if they can just write it down?
I have found that I remember phone numbers much less now than in the past. I can, for example, remember the phone number of my childhood home or the land lines of old friends, but I do know my parents' current cell phone numbers or my friends current cell phone numbers.
Plato was ahead of his time.
There is a report by Dalrymple https://www.scaruffi.com/phi/dalrymple.pdf (see page 7 of 9) on how a traditional bard community in Northwest India used to have to memorize thousands-of-lines-long historical poems to recite at events, but once they started learning to write them down so as to not lose the information, their capacity or drive to recall these from memory diminished.
And the study of London cabbies, whose brains actually altered in structure (increased hippocampus size) after their intensive route memorization called 'the knowledge' https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/london-taxi-memory/
If the cabbies ever abandon this practice and turn to GPS, this brain structure may change back?
London cabbies may well
use GPS, but "the knowledge" is statutory. It works as an exclusion device which restricts the number of cabbies, raising prices and cabbies' incomes. [The difference to the medallion method of restriction, as in NYC, is that the artificial scarcity rents accrue to the cabbie, not the owner of the medallion.]
I'm pleased to hear that at least some efforts to form cartels lead to brain changes! Maybe we can now find and perhaps prosecute people who wish to engage in conspiracies in restraint of trade by checking out their brain structure! :-)
I can still use my slide rule (students have no idea what it is), but the belt holster strap (remember the slide rule banging on your hip on the way to chem/physics?) has decayed. Well, I can still remember the obvious scales and sliding the cursor, but no one ever asked me to join the Apollo program.Quote from: clean on November 08, 2022, 09:40:35 AM
In my early professional career, I taught at a for profit college that taught electronics. One of the faculty was just as fast with a slide rule as I was with a calculator. There are a lot of things that one can do with logarithms. However, we are not really taught logarithms anymore, much less how to use a slide rule.
So some tools are replaced with other tools.
As for phone numbers, I agree. I remember my childhood phone number and I remember the rotary dial phone that my parents stood me at to dial it over and again so that I could remember it!
I remember some of the often called numbers of my coworkers 30 years ago, not because of the number, but the pattern of the 10 key pad.
HOwever, I do not know My Bride's phone number!! (I know the pattern of the last 4 but I never can seem to remember the 3 digit extension!). Should I ever have a problem with my phone, I will be in big trouble!
Quote from: Juvenal on November 08, 2022, 03:12:08 PM
I can still use my slide rule (students have no idea what it is), but the belt holster strap (remember the slide rule banging on your hip on the way to chem/physics?) has decayed. Well, I can still remember the obvious scales and sliding the cursor, but no one ever asked me to join the Apollo program.
But do you have a
circular slide rule like me? Super cool.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 08, 2022, 03:22:25 PM
Quote from: Juvenal on November 08, 2022, 03:12:08 PM
I can still use my slide rule (students have no idea what it is), but the belt holster strap (remember the slide rule banging on your hip on the way to chem/physics?) has decayed. Well, I can still remember the obvious scales and sliding the cursor, but no one ever asked me to join the Apollo program.
But do you have a circular slide rule like me? Super cool.
Yes, and I lost it, to my regret. Cool, it was!
Quote from: Puget on November 08, 2022, 10:17:49 AM
Assuming there will always be "tradespeople" to do things for them, some young people don't see the need to learn to:
Make their own soap
Tan their own leather
Thatch their own roof
--Someone in the Middle Ages, probably.
Absolutely! Modcons make us more efficient. That's why we use them and are willing to pay for them.
It makes me sad that the new technologies make using old skills, such as using a slide rule, knowing how to divide by 10, or writing in complete sentences, obsolete. Those of us who mastered these technologies will share the fate of knowing how to drive a horse-and-buggy, still used by aficionados, but no one else.
So, I have a cell phone, but hardly use it. A cell phone is like a toilet: You want to have one for its convenience, but not sit on all day.
Quote from: dismalist on November 08, 2022, 03:26:44 PM
So, I have a cell phone, but hardly use it. A cell phone is like a toilet: You want to have one for its convenience, but not sit on all day.
That's a...pungent observation. It pretty much sums up how I think of cell use as well.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 08, 2022, 10:22:41 AM
Ever see someone pull out a phone to divide a number by 10? Or multiply a number by 10? Should that really be necessary?
ETA: I remember a few years ago hearing high school students who didn't think learning to drive was necessary, since self-driving cars would soon be here and make it unnecessary. (Hence my pointing out the news on that above.)
One of my Astronomy lab students whipped out a phone to multiply a number by 1!!!!!! Well, it was 1.00, so maybe the decimal places were confusing?
Quote from: dismalist on November 08, 2022, 03:26:44 PM
horse-and-buggy, still used by aficionados, but no one else.
The Amish will dispute the above characterization.
Quotehorse-and-buggy, still used by aficionados, but no one else.
The Amish will dispute the above characterization.
Maybe the Amish ARE aficionados!
The Amish allow new technologies, such as cell phones, trucks, and the internet to be experimented with and eventually used. They just don't want the technologies to disrupt their traditional way of life. All this is decided on in a highly decentralized manner, so one will see different rules.
As with all new technologies, the Amish insist that cell phones are not shown off, and are used quietly and in a secluded manner [specific rules differ]. No phoning in public! I wish we were more like the Amish in some ways!
Quote from: dismalist on November 08, 2022, 05:08:02 PM
The Amish allow new technologies, such as cell phones, trucks, and the internet to be experimented with and eventually used. They just don't want the technologies to disrupt their traditional way of life. All this is decided on in a highly decentralized manner, so one will see different rules.
As with all new technologies, the Amish insist that cell phones are not shown off, and are used quietly and in a secluded manner [specific rules differ]. No phoning in public! I wish we were more like the Amish in some ways!
I know quite a lot about the Amish given where I have lived all these years. What technology is allowed varies wildly from church to church, as the local bishop is in charge. Someone I worked with retired, and drives a logging crew to the woods each day. As is often the case, his group uses power tools but doesn't drive. Many crews (local Amish do a large amount of new home building in the state) are a ditto, but they do not own the tools. Not allowed by their bishop.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on November 08, 2022, 06:53:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on November 08, 2022, 05:08:02 PM
The Amish allow new technologies, such as cell phones, trucks, and the internet to be experimented with and eventually used. They just don't want the technologies to disrupt their traditional way of life. All this is decided on in a highly decentralized manner, so one will see different rules.
As with all new technologies, the Amish insist that cell phones are not shown off, and are used quietly and in a secluded manner [specific rules differ]. No phoning in public! I wish we were more like the Amish in some ways!
I know quite a lot about the Amish given where I have lived all these years. What technology is allowed varies wildly from church to church, as the local bishop is in charge. Someone I worked with retired, and drives a logging crew to the woods each day. As is often the case, his group uses power tools but doesn't drive. Many crews (local Amish do a large amount of new home building in the state) are a ditto, but they do not own the tools. Not allowed by their bishop.
Around here, it's quite common for them to have power tools and phones in their businesses, but not in their homes.
Quote from: dismalist on November 08, 2022, 05:08:02 PM
The Amish allow new technologies, such as cell phones, trucks, and the internet to be experimented with and eventually used. They just don't want the technologies to disrupt their traditional way of life. All this is decided on in a highly decentralized manner, so one will see different rules.
As with all new technologies, the Amish insist that cell phones are not shown off, and are used quietly and in a secluded manner [specific rules differ]. No phoning in public! I wish we were more like the Amish in some ways!
Sounds like an intelligent way to adapt to new technologies without letting them run amok.
My two superpowers have been completely obliterated by technology.
1) I can drive a stick shift. I have taught my sisters, an old boyfriend, and friend's daughter how. I used to impress the Midwestern transplants with my ability to gracefully start from a dead stop on a steep hill. Now with electric cars, these are not needed. Our 6-speed manual is already starting to give the occasional valet a wince... "Um... let me get my coworker."
2) I can parallel park in tight spaces on one try and get super close to the curb, natch. Now they have automated the technology.
I guess it's time for me to die.
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 09, 2022, 07:07:50 PM
My two superpowers have been completely obliterated by technology.
1) I can drive a stick shift. I have taught my sisters, an old boyfriend, and friend's daughter how. I used to impress the Midwestern transplants with my ability to gracefully start from a dead stop on a steep hill. Now with electric cars, these are not needed. Our 6-speed manual is already starting to give the occasional valet a wince... "Um... let me get my coworker."
2) I can parallel park in tight spaces on one try and get super close to the curb, natch. Now they have automated the technology.
I guess it's time for me to die.
My superpower is finding my way around cities. (Note - this only works to its fullest extent in North American and Western European cities - something about having good cultural knowledge of how cities are organized.) This has also been automated.
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 09, 2022, 07:07:50 PM
My two superpowers have been completely obliterated by technology.
1) I can drive a stick shift. I have taught my sisters, an old boyfriend, and friend's daughter how. I used to impress the Midwestern transplants with my ability to gracefully start from a dead stop on a steep hill. Now with electric cars, these are not needed. Our 6-speed manual is already starting to give the occasional valet a wince... "Um... let me get my coworker."
2) I can parallel park in tight spaces on one try and get super close to the curb, natch. Now they have automated the technology.
I guess it's time for me to die.
Not quite; my Gen Z daughter, since she can drive a stick, has been able to drive her boyfriend's car. (And in other countries, rentals are still often sticks.) Are automatic
tractors the norm yet?
Did y'all not have friends who were really bad at reading maps when younger? They don't show up 30 minutes late for everything anymore because they're not perpetually getting lost. They still can't find our county on a map and thus can't understand how I always know the imminent weather threat from looking at a radar, but my coffee is still hot when they get to the coffee shop.
Quote from: glowdart on November 10, 2022, 06:33:44 AM
Did y'all not have friends who were really bad at reading maps when younger? They don't show up 30 minutes late for everything anymore because they're not perpetually getting lost. They still can't find our county on a map and thus can't understand how I always know the imminent weather threat from looking at a radar, but my coffee is still hot when they get to the coffee shop.
What is this "late" of which you speak? It sounds like you assume there was some sort of expectation
prior to an event that people would arrive. Everyone knows the proper way to act as a group is to continually monitor social media and, if consensus develops that there is a generalized desire to meet in a specific location as soon as people can get there, then some unspecified number will show up.
You sound as if people could decide and make a commitment to attend in advance, regardless of what everyone may feel like at that time. Weird.
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 09, 2022, 07:27:39 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 09, 2022, 07:07:50 PM
My two superpowers have been completely obliterated by technology.
1) I can drive a stick shift. I have taught my sisters, an old boyfriend, and friend's daughter how. I used to impress the Midwestern transplants with my ability to gracefully start from a dead stop on a steep hill. Now with electric cars, these are not needed. Our 6-speed manual is already starting to give the occasional valet a wince... "Um... let me get my coworker."
2) I can parallel park in tight spaces on one try and get super close to the curb, natch. Now they have automated the technology.
I guess it's time for me to die.
My superpower is finding my way around cities. (Note - this only works to its fullest extent in North American and Western European cities - something about having good cultural knowledge of how cities are organized.) This has also been automated.
Yes it has, but I don't have a GPS and still navigate with paper maps. It's an imperfect system that means I sometimes have trouble finding my way around unfamiliar cities, but once I have it figured out, I have it figured out. I also still drive a stick.
Quote from: apl68 on November 10, 2022, 07:23:53 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on November 09, 2022, 07:27:39 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 09, 2022, 07:07:50 PM
My two superpowers have been completely obliterated by technology.
1) I can drive a stick shift. I have taught my sisters, an old boyfriend, and friend's daughter how. I used to impress the Midwestern transplants with my ability to gracefully start from a dead stop on a steep hill. Now with electric cars, these are not needed. Our 6-speed manual is already starting to give the occasional valet a wince... "Um... let me get my coworker."
2) I can parallel park in tight spaces on one try and get super close to the curb, natch. Now they have automated the technology.
I guess it's time for me to die.
My superpower is finding my way around cities. (Note - this only works to its fullest extent in North American and Western European cities - something about having good cultural knowledge of how cities are organized.) This has also been automated.
Yes it has, but I don't have a GPS and still navigate with paper maps. It's an imperfect system that means I sometimes have trouble finding my way around unfamiliar cities, but once I have it figured out, I have it figured out. I also still drive a stick.
Amazing fact! Maps
still work if there has been a car accident, or a water main break, or construction! And they don't even say "Recalculating....." while they do!