Taking Covid tests

[spork]

^ I would like to contrast this institutional response with the one I experienced three years ago when I wanted an improperly-behaving first-semester student barred from attending class. The vice president of student affairs said that because I had indicated that I did not feel physically threatened by the student, I could not file an assault complaint with the police, and therefore the university would do nothing.

We are being told that there will be a testing protocol in place, and a requirement that everyone, including students, wear masks. But I doubt the university is going to have security personnel physically remove students from the classroom if they refuse to wear a mask properly or refuse to engage in social distancing.

[Ahania]

We will not be testing -- we do not have the funds for it.  Faculty, staff, and students are supposed to monitor their health, with students recording temperature etc. on an app.  Students will be given one cloth mask.  Plexiglass is apparently being placed in classrooms.  Cameras etc. have been added to some classrooms in order to provide hyflex classes.

I have very little confidence that any of this will work.

[polly_mer]

I'm back.  The test was the nose swab, so looking for current infection.

The nurse was correct that the swabbing was probably the longest five seconds of my day*.  However, it's fine now, although my ear on that side feels a little full.

We do our own processing, so the claim is results within 48 h.

However, even with our pretty good logistics and planning, this first week has slow enough throughput due to the person-by-person briefing before testing that I bet next week will have a slightly different process to avoid backup into the driving lanes.

*Although the day is still early and I have to walk up 10 flights of stairs to get to my office this afternoon.

[Caracal]

^ I would like to contrast this institutional response with the one I experienced three years ago when I wanted an improperly-behaving first-semester student barred from attending class. The vice president of student affairs said that because I had indicated that I did not feel physically threatened by the student, I could not file an assault complaint with the police, and therefore the university would do nothing.

We are being told that there will be a testing protocol in place, and a requirement that everyone, including students, wear masks. But I doubt the university is going to have security personnel physically remove students from the classroom if they refuse to wear a mask properly or refuse to engage in social distancing.

There are lots of reasons I'm increasingly concerned about fall classes, but this isn't a worry for me. Maybe this is just really dependent on institution, but I've been teaching for a pretty long time at this point, mostly at non-elite state schools, and I've yet to encounter open defiance where I've asked a student to do something and they've refused. If I teach in the classroom in the fall I plan to bring a few spare disposable masks for people who forget. If anyone takes off a mask during class, I'd ask them to put it back on. If it happened again, I'd say it again and emphasize that they can't be here without keeping it on. In 99 percent of cases, that will fix the problem.

[polly_mer]

You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance.  When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened.  One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.

My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA.  As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.

[kaysixteen]

I'll ignore the stupid assertion that I am a blowhard who does not understand libertarianism.  I understand it fine, which is why the Libertarian party is such a nonstarter.

Caracal's notion is theoretically sound, in terms of how it would be that a school could enforce compliance to testing and other mandates.  The problem with this (assuming school has the money to do these things and the infrastructure, etc.) is that the students may well not care if they suffer the sanction involved.  Indeed, many of them, forced to take covid tests repeatedly, eat solo in their rooms, etc., may well say, no grazie, I am outtahere, taking a leave, etc., taking tuition check with me, transferring to someplace that will not do these things to me, etc.  Only the most elite schools will have the chops, cachet, whatever, to resist such, and mewonders whether places like this, not generally known for draconian or 19th c-style in loco parentis policies, will want to impose them, even if they could get away with them.

[Caracal]

You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance.  When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened.  One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.

My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA.  As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.

I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you.  I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.

[polly_mer]

You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance.  When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened.  One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.

My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA.  As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.

I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you.  I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.

In contrast, I am frequently the only woman in the room for any professional purposes and often taught the weedout courses to people who were angry about standards that meant they would not be able to continue in the program.

The guy who most worried me had a good six inches and a hundred pounds on me.  He stepped into my personal space so we were less than a foot apart while telling me how my class would go for the next 10 minutes because he wasn't happy with his grade, me, or the whole situation.

He was wrong and backed down when I stood my ground since I had a rough-and-tumble childhood and was young enough that I would be able to fight at that point if push came to shove.  The eliteness meant he expected physical intimidation to be enough.  I was much less sanguine about the regional comprehensive where the students also came from backgrounds where physical violence was more common.

I would actually be more worried about more privileged people deciding they can quietly and politely ignore "suggestions" because all that happens is another reminder.

[polly_mer]

I'll ignore the stupid assertion that I am a blowhard who does not understand libertarianism.  I understand it fine, which is why the Libertarian party is such a nonstarter.

The fact that you asked the question means you don't 'understand it fine'. 

[Caracal]

Caracal's notion is theoretically sound, in terms of how it would be that a school could enforce compliance to testing and other mandates.  The problem with this (assuming school has the money to do these things and the infrastructure, etc.) is that the students may well not care if they suffer the sanction involved.  Indeed, many of them, forced to take covid tests repeatedly, eat solo in their rooms, etc., may well say, no grazie, I am outtahere, taking a leave, etc., taking tuition check with me, transferring to someplace that will not do these things to me, etc.  Only the most elite schools will have the chops, cachet, whatever, to resist such, and mewonders whether places like this, not generally known for draconian or 19th c-style in loco parentis policies, will want to impose them, even if they could get away with them.

Well, I don't think it would work unless you have reasonable policies that students can live with. Students have to be able to go places and see people. You can't ask them to just eat in their rooms by themselves. Even if they are temporarily quarantined, having students do it in their dorm room isn't really feasible.

As for the sanctions, I think it would work as long as the sanctions were just natural penalties. This is how it works, it is easy to do, you get lots of warnings and a little bit of a grace period, but then you can't go to class. If you combine that with making it easy to do, I think it would probably more or less work ok. But, whatever, all this is premised on not having Covid all over the place, like we do now, so it feels increasingly like a theoretical discussion.

[polly_mer]

The 'lots of warnings' approach is how you guarantee large-scale non-compliance.

The assertion that you can't have people actually do what's necessary to prevent spread is how we got to where we are as a nation.

In other words, if people won't stay alone/small isolated bubbles as much as possible with only necessary trips while wearing masks, then we keep spreading the virus.

The easy actions are staying isolated, wearing masks, and handwashing.

[Caracal]

You've been lucky if you've never had open defiance.  When I was an adjunct, they handed out a CHE article about faculty being physically threatened.  One of the first-person examples was from my main employer where I had had encounters.

My worst encounter, though, was at an elite institution as a TA.  As the first-person account said, I just kept repeating that he probably won't hit me on the first swing.

I'll say that I'm aware that these things can be effected by gender, race and the way people perceive you.  I'm a relatively tall, white dude who isn't usually perceived as particularly threatening or confrontational. In various ways, I think that combination helps me avoid being or feeling threatened by students and I'm not trying to discount anyone's experience.

In contrast, I am frequently the only woman in the room for any professional purposes and often taught the weedout courses to people who were angry about standards that meant they would not be able to continue in the program.

The guy who most worried me had a good six inches and a hundred pounds on me.  He stepped into my personal space so we were less than a foot apart while telling me how my class would go for the next 10 minutes because he wasn't happy with his grade, me, or the whole situation.

Right, I think the kind of men who like pulling that move aren't likely to do it to a guy close to their own size. I'm sure you handled it better than I would.  Just about all adult confrontations I've had have involved sports and I usually become comically amped up and start yelling at people in ways that I find embarrassing later...

[Caracal]

The 'lots of warnings' approach is how you guarantee large-scale non-compliance.

The assertion that you can't have people actually do what's necessary to prevent spread is how we got to where we are as a nation.

I don't mean no penalties for non-compliance. I'm just imagining a system where there's a little built in leeway. Like suppose the real date the person needs to be tested before is Tuesday. On Monday morning they get the text that they need to do it that day. If they haven't done it by 3, they get another text. Then one more that night. Another one Tuesday that they can't come to class unless they go do the test first.. On Tuesday, if they show up in class their instructor tells them they have to go do the test before they can come back to class. Ideally, there's a testing place 5 minutes away and they can actually just come back to class with the authorization.

I think that's the version that could work on a college campus.

[polly_mer]

I was given a week's notice for the random test with a reminder the day before for an 0700 test appointment. 

However, having been responsible for mandatory activities at Super Dinky where the penalty is not graduating, I would not want to put all the faculty members in the position of having to deny entry to class to non-compliant students. 

Having been the administrator in charge of activities where the failure to comply meant significant consequences for the institution and therefore we created consequences for faculty and staff to do their part, I wouldn't want to have to create additional penalties to get faculty to enforce the rules.

I've been amazed at how many humans (faculty, staff, students) just blow off reminders for things they don't want to do.  You asked about deadlines for submitting grades and I've been the person who had to physically stand over faculty to get them to submit grades that were late enough to be causing problems. More reminders tends to have the opposite effects because the channel is filled with noise.

In addition, being the enforcer is not pleasant and can be confrontational. Again, I have experiences with large students and even faculty trying to physically intimidate me.  I've had students my size flip out and throw things while screaming.  I've experienced vandalism to my office and I'm pretty sure that was faculty who had keys.

[mahagonny]

Speaking for myself I have different things to think about, being on only part time contracts. If I am determined to be a carrier of COVID-19 but asymptomatic, I can expect to be sent home. Like all poor slobs who have work for a living, that's fine with me, as long as they still have to pay me. But what happens next semester?