discussing financial matters with elderly relatives

[kaysixteen]

So I visited my 73yo aunt today, as more or less I did every other week except for the height of the pandemic, before Mass. got things better under control (my PCP, who is also hers as well, approves of this).  She never married, and was essentially a second mom to me and my bro, especially in the early years when mom was just holding on as a non-supported single mom.   She and mom lived together for just over 30 years before mom passed... and then, well... Mom had an excellent, really excellent, public school teacher's pension, which of course died with her.   Auntie, not so much.  She was an executive assistant for various firms over the years, and when downsized out 12 years ago started her own business.  But as of two years ago, when mom died, aunt told me that she was essentially making no money at it.  She does obviously also collect social security.   Mom and aunt jointly own this condo, which they IMO overpaid for, selling their previous one in another town back in '04.  I do not know how much outstanding mortgage debt remains on it, but there was no specific 'mortgage insurance' policy that would have paid off the rest all at once, after mom's death.   For reasons of legal technicalities associated with where I was living (out of state) and he was living (in state)  in 2004, mom appointed brother as executor of her estate, with both our consent.  I had forgotten about this when she died, but of course this meant bro had to serve as the executor.  I offered him any help he might need, several times in the following few months, but he never took me up on it.   He assured me that mom had arranged the affairs of their house into some sort of trust (a lawyer of course did this), which would allow aunt to be able to stay in the house (though exactly how this was accomplished without a specific mortgage insurance policy I did not think to ask him).   Initially I thought aunt was really thinking she might need to sell and downgrade (and the place really is far too big for one anyhow), but then things seemed to go well for her, and she did not say anything else that might have given me any pause.   Until today.   I showed up around 1:30 or so, more or less as normal, and after greeting me the first thing she said was 'I hope you had lunch'.  I hadn't, because our church has suspended after service meals for the duration of the rona.  This is no problem, usually I just grab a sandwich at aunt's, and of course we were planning a meal for dinner (I brought the corn and the brownies).  She followed this up with saying she had not gotten any lunch foodstuffs in, and then added that this was because she was short of money.   If I were not also very very short of money, I would have just taken her out for lunch or something.   But irrespective of why she is short of funds, how she is spending her money, etc., said shortage is apparently there (though one would not know this if she had not said anything about it).   So here is my question-- what should I do about it?   Ever since I can remember, in our extended family at least, talking about money is just about as taboo as talking about sex (not that I had ever wanted to talk about that).  I was always taught never to ask adults how much money they earned, had, etc.  ( I remember asking my brother this around 1998, while he was still in private industry, before joining the Navy-- his reaction was pure offense).   Nowadays, as the executor of mom's estate (though methinks all this work must be over with by now, as the estate did not need to get probated (we had a lawyer evaluate that in the days after her death)), he has to know details such as what the monthly mortgage, tax, insurance, utilities, etc., on the condo is, and he probably has some idea what her income is too, I guess.   He and I, he said, are co-heirs to mom's half of the thing, but will not, according to the trust docs, be inheriting anything until it would eventually be sold or aunt passes (this is fine, of course).   But I have real responsibility for aunt, as he does of course (and as do my two cousins, children of her other sister, who however never had the relationship or reason to have as much responsibility towards her, for historical familial circumstances), and I cannot really evaluate what steps I might need to take now in terms of fulfilling said responsibilities, without knowing certain of these sorts of financial details.   I could ask her directly, but 1) I do not want her to worry  2) I do not want her to think she might become a burden on me 3) I do not want to risk offense, given our family's views of soliciting such financial info (BTW, how common is this view?).  Alternatively, I could bring this to the attention of my brother, who is a fairly senior naval officer, a childless lifelong bachelor, and has what I imagine is quite a bit of money (I have excellent reasons for thinking this, and besides these, there was, for instance, one subsidiary bank account for several thousand dollars, that mom had not attached to the co-owned trust with aunt, that just passed to him and me, and I never would have known of its existence, but he did and just gave the whole thing to me without being asked).   He obviously has much more means to do something to alleviate any immediate financial needs that may be there for her (though I think, on balance, that today's remark was probably more akin to a end of month social security check cashflow issue?).   And he would do so without the slightest hesitation or compunction.   But those same three points I raised above that make me hesitant to bring this subject up with her would be the same if done by him (though she is aware of the vast chasm in financial status between him and me).  So I do not even know whether I should mention this to him, or just in general ask him for overall financial details on the status of the trust, the condo bills/ debt/ etc., that I pointedly deferred from asking him two years ago?  Thoughts appreciated...

[spork]

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer familiar with trust, inheritance, or property law.

If you and your brother are in fact co-owners of your mom's half of the condo and, according to your mom's will, stand to gain possession of it in its entirety upon the death of your aunt, I would assume that you both have a legal right to know about any financial claims on the property, such as a mortgage. And if your aunt can't afford food, then there's a good chance she's having problems with the mortgage, if one exists.

So you contact your brother and say that you've discovered that your aunt is losing the ability to meet living expenses, what are the costs associated with the condo, and is your aunt in danger of defaulting on the mortgage?

[nebo113]

I agree with Spork.  And your aunt is fortunate to have you as a loving nephew.

[Vkw10]

Money is a sensitive topic in your family, so if you aren't willing to start with direct questions, try giving your brother a heads up that you're concerned and gently encouraging your aunt to talk about her concerns.

To your brother, try saying, "I'm a bit worried about Aunt. When I visited today, she told me she couldn't offer me lunch because she didn't have enough money to buy lunch food. I'm worried that keeping the condo up is too big a burden for her." He might volunteer information or simply reply that he'll check on aunt, but you've opened a conversation that you can continue in future. For sensitive family topics, stating my own concern without asking questions often prompts my brother to talk.

Does your aunt need suggestions of cheap, shelf stable foodstuff that she can keep on hand for when money is running low? My elderly mother was pleased when I introduced her to a few of my favorite standbys for when I hadn't made it to grocery store. One was ramen, canned tuna, and frozen mixed vegetables. Five dollars will buy enough for 4-5 meals, if you use the veg a handful at a time. Mother happily reminisced about ways she stretched grocery budget when she had a young family and couldn't always afford fresh food. She also started talking to me about other ways she could stretch her limited income, as she didn't want to become a burden on her children.

You probably will need to ask blunt questions eventually, but if the situation  doesn't seem dire you can ease everyone into the idea that it's okay to talk about how to help your aunt, even if that requires acknowledging money.

[Puget]

I'd be worried about your aunt's nutrition if she is scrimping on food. She may well qualify for food assistance:
https://www.fns.usda.gov/program/assistance-seniors
https://www.mass.gov/nutrition-program-for-seniors

[polly_mer]

You need to know what the trust, will, and other legal paperwork actually states for your mom and for this aunt.

We recently set up a trust for our worldly goods that will be disbursed according to our wills.  We also have documents on what triggers a financial guardian or a medical guardian for us along with named preferences and what powers of attorney are invoked at each condition. We also have documents on what triggers a guardian for Blocky if we are still living, but unable to care for him while he is still a minor.

You likely need to consult a family/elder lawyer (try Legal Aid for free/low cost) to find out what you can do to get the information you need to help.

You will need to be assertive and work through being the recipient of angry assertions that nice people don't discuss money.  Yep, that's true when there's plenty of money.  When money is tight, then smart people talk about how to pool and leverage the resources they have.

[clean]

Your aunt may have a life estate in the condo, meaning that she can stay there or even rent it out, as long as she lives and you and bro are 'remaindermen'. 
You should be made aware of any encumbrances on the title of the property.  (Actually, you may be able to find out what is on the title.  Some states even have that information online.  It is not private information and should be available in the county clerk's office where the property is located).

[hmaria1609]

You could call the local county (or state) office of aging or state AARP office for resources.

[Hegemony]

Obviously you need to find out what's what.  I hope your brother can tell you some of the details, as far as he knows them.

I know it's been taboo to talk about money in your family. You can see where that has led. I would feel no compunction to continue to honor this harmful taboo, not with any member of the family. And your aunt has opened the door to discussion. You may feel funny about talking about it all — that is a hangover of the family Agreed Silence — but ignore that and press on.

So first you gather as much information as your brother can give you, and then as your aunt can give you. She may not be up to speed with all of it, since your mother's death and the estate arrangements may be complicated and unclear to her. So if she says she doesn't know about some things, she may genuinely be telling the truth.

Then you figure out how to help support your aunt. For instance, if you and your brother now own your mother's half of the condo, or will inherit it down the line, maybe you can pay your aunt that money now. For instance, figure out how much you can spare monthly, coordinated with how much she needs monthly, and start transferring that amount into her account every month. Get a lawyer to make a legal agreement about this, so that when your aunt passes away, there are no inheritance difficulties if you and your brother have "paid" different amounts, or if you have been supporting your aunt and your brother hasn't.

Of course another strategy would be for her to sell the condo and move to someplace smaller. I don't know if that would provide income for her or for you. It would also be very disruptive for her, so you'd want to take that into account. But if she can't afford the place now, and isn't up to maintaining it, that possibility should be on the table.

You may want to consult with a lawyer who specializes in eldercare issues. I know a good one in the Bay Area if you or your aunt happens to be in that region.

[kaysixteen]

Thanks all.  Thing is, she had plenty of food in the house, just not mayo, cold cuts, etc., the usual lunch stuff around.   She also had bought very expensive steak for dinner.... and then gave me the leftovers to take home (it would be out of the question for me to insult her, further, by refusing to take them).   And we spent time watching very expensive cable, much more expensive than the package I have.   And she has a well-pampered pooch, for which I am deeply grateful (she was always a dog person, since she was a little kid, but hadn't replaced her previous pooch in '05, largely because of my mom).  I do not think she is failing to meet mortgage expenses, but I do not know this.   I suspect my brother does know, or should know, because of his work as executor.   I do not want to bring this up with him just yet, while I cogitate on it (there may be one other relative I could bounce this off of first).

Recall the thread I recently raised wrt talking with docs-- it may well not be ascertainable from my participation here, but it really is true that I am an introvert, and rather deeply conflict-averse.   And it is true that money is more or less forbidden subject #A1 in my family (no one really asks me about my finances either, for which I cannot honestly say I am ungrateful).  My brother clearly led me to believe that he and I have that joint inheritance of mom's half of the condo, but at the time of her death, which was a sudden one, and with all the attendant stress and chaos of this (including the presence of loads of out of state relatives) I demurred from asking him for the actual financial documents, because, again, conflict, plus I did not want to appear greedy, or untrusting in him (remember he has loads more $$ than I do).  Maybe this was stupid, but it is what it is.   And I did not want to worry my aunt by talking of this either.   Now I am stuck, because I have to ascertain whether she is indeed in peril of losing the condo, which will also almost certainly require my informing my brother of this concern.   It may well be the best for her to sell now and downsize, but I did suggest that once to him two years ago, and he assured me then that it was not a problem for her, and that doing so would take her away from her friends (condo is in an over-55 complex that is pretty tight-knit).  And, of course, trying to suggest her to sell renders me liable to be seen as greedy (of course I do not know what the trust deal actually is, never having asked bro for a copy of it).  Under no circumstances would I want to get any cash now, certainly not while there would be any chance that getting that share of the condo would risk impoverishing aunt-- better to forswear the inheritance than this.

As I write, I see that I cannot forget about this and will have to continue to consider what needs to be done here, and probably will have to seek that counsel from down-the-chain kin who could be trusted to keep quiet now.   Does anyone, therefore, have any ideas on how I might broach subject with brother, including asking for overall financial details of condo, etc.?

I just saw hegemony's post before sending this one.   And that brought to mind several issues:  1) I have noticed in recent months that the housekeeping in the condo is vastly less than it was when mom was alive-- mom was retired and did almost all of this while aunt worked.  2)  I cannot pay anything towards that mortgage now.   Really, I can't-- I do not like this, but it is what it is, especially given the pandemic's having made it essentially impossible to get real professional work this year.  It dawned on me that I did consider two years ago asking my brother to buy me out of my share, no reasonable offer refused.  I am wondering what I might do here, whether anyone has any thoughts on this idea?

[clean]

do you want to move in with her?

[kaysixteen]

Not unless she is unable to care for herself, no.

[polly_mer]

Being an introvert has nothing to do with not being able to be a responsible adult advocating for self and others.  Being an introvert means needing alone time to recharge emotionally.

I have no answers at this point for someone who refuses to do what's necessary while making excuses for refraining from doing responsible adult activities.

If you love your aunt or even just feel responsible, then you will take the advice on this thread to have the conversations about money and talk with the external experts.

[wellfleet]

Since I moved in with my mom a few years back, I am way more up in her financial affairs than I used to be, but I try my hardest to stay out of the way and respect her privacy, autonomy, and choices on any daily/weekly basis. 

That said, I think you should absolutely talk with your aunt about her current life, which might involve discussing money, housekeeping, loneliness, budgets, pandemic effects, nutrition, her health care, etc.. You can gently give her opportunities to share without presenting yourself as the authority on any of these things, or the decision-maker. Sometimes, that can mean sharing your own choices and decisions, too.

My family didn't have taboos re: money talk nearly as strong as the ones you describe, but they were there. I've taken steps to break those down further with my teenage son. He has a far more accurate sense of our finances than I did--I think it's an important part of his education.

Your brother's net worth is his business, but if he's active duty, his salary is a matter of public record. I work with Navy folk and my father was a career officer, too--start here: https://www.navy.com/what-to-expect/military-pay-and-benefits.

[kaysixteen]

I could certainly access my brother's pay rate, but it is not necessary.   But whatever it is, it vastly exceeds my current income, and since he has never had any periods of unemployment, at least not for a three month or so period 25+ years ago, long before he joined up, he also would have had no impediments to ongoing wealth acquisition.  As a serving officer, he moves every 2-3 years and, also being not a family man, has never chosen to buy property anywhere.   He could certainly buy my share out, and in any case I would not charge him exorbitantly for it (though I guess I should, if I go that route, figure out what the reasonable value of the place is minus the outstanding mortgage debt).

Wellfleet's view is correct.   I must in no case say or do anything with aunt that would give her the impression that I am assuming authority over her, her finances, etc., nor viewing her as incompetent (which she absolutely is not).   I will be working on this issue with some vigor over the following days and we, getting various opinions from relatives and competent outside experts, including a lawyer bud of mine, but as it is not a lifethreatening immediate emergency, I will not push the issue today as if it were.  Polly will have to deal with this, even if it makes her think I am bad.