I am advising a PhD student who is working with me from Fall 2021. I am supporting the student's tuition and stipend for his help as TA/RA. This student's writing is horrible and I had to spend lot of time to provide my review comments for the paper that he submitted. After my edits, I had to refer him to the writing center and again with the lot of effort from the writing center, I submitted the paper to a journal and it is currently under review. Meanwhile, I had him work to submit a paper for a conference and that got rejected too. He is currently working on fixing the reviewer comments for this second paper.
I had chance to stumble upon a paper in ResearchGate that this particular PhD student co-authored, with his affiliation showing our department, which was published in November 2022 . I have never heard about this journal ... When I looked at the Wikipedia for this journal, this is what I am seeing... "the journal has been delisted since the 2019 edition. In the Norwegian Scientific Index, the journal has been listed as "Level 0" since 2008,[4] which means that it is not considered scientific and publications in the journal therefore do not fulfill the necessary criteria in order to count for public research funding. The journal is abstracted and indexed in Embase[6] and in Scopus from 2007 till 2022 when it was delisted due to "publication concerns".
Since he did not say anything about the submission and publication of it, when I emailed and asked what this paper is about... his reply is " Half of the research work was carried out when I was in final year of bachelor. My brother's friend who is junior managed to publish it in this year due to his board & college requirements. And I am also trying to build my strong research profile for upcoming endeavor & green card requirements. Let me know if you have any guidance or concerns, I will try to integrate that in my work life and our work environment. It is kind of trash journal, but it is a small start for me😅 "
I have a very strong feeling that he is lying that half of the research work was carried out when he was in final year of bachelor, which is 2018. I believe he worked on this in 2022 and is lying about it. This is shocking to me that he did not tell anything about this work and submission and publication of it in a trash journal with his current Department and University affiliation.
Also when I looked at the Research Gate profile of the first author, he looks like an Assistant Professor in India with only Masters and this PhD student is listed as a Lab Member (with our institution affiliation in this profile) with that first author as Lab Head in the research gate profile for both this PhD student and that first author.
I am sort of new to PhD advising and I have not graduated any PhDs yet, though I am currently advising four PhD students. Please advise how to handle this situation.
You seem to be taking this very personally-- if the work was not done in your lab, you really have no cause to be upset with the student for not telling you about it-- you don't own the student or their time outside of their work with you. If your problem is that it was taking away from time they should have been spending on their research with you, keep the focus on that, not being angry that they published something else. You certainly have no call to be policing what people completely unaffiliated with you (the first author) are putting in their ResearchGate profiles.
Now, I do think you have a responsibility to help educate this student about how to vet quality journals, and how publishing in scam journals can hurt their career and reputation. But keep the focus on their career development, not being aggrieved on your own behalf (for what, exactly?).
Quote from: Puget on February 26, 2023, 06:15:55 PM
You certainly have no call to be policing what people completely unaffiliated with you (the first author) are putting in their ResearchGate profiles.
In the PhD student's research gate profile also ... his lab head appears to be the first author and he appears to be a member in that first author's lab... I understand that I may be overreacting... thats why I need advise from the wiser professors...
Quote from: Puget on February 26, 2023, 06:15:55 PM
If your problem is that it was taking away from time they should have been spending on their research with you, keep the focus on that, not being angry that they published something else.
Yes. This is actually my concern. I would like the PhD student to focus on doing the research with me rather than outside.
Why is when he did the work an issue, exactly? I'm afraid I don't get it. it seems to me that the only issue you should be involved in, here, is advising them about journal selection and avoiding garbage.
Sometimes it can take 4 years or more to get a paper out. The lead guy could have had issues with funding, personal or medical issues, or just other responsibilities that took him or responsible parties away from getting this done. In fact, the fact that it shows in a crud journal tells me that someone just said "get it published already, I don't care where." So, I think I believe the student. If you start seeing more and more of this at later and later dates, then it will be more questionable, of course.
It's standard in academia that a person in one position is working on finishing/publishing stuff they started in their previous position. I have former undergrad research students who are now in grad school. I'd be pretty upset if they couldn't find time to quickly redo a couple figures or make edits on a manuscript.
You should focus on whether the student is spending adequate time on your research and producing adequate results. That doesn't mean insisting the student should spend zero time on finishing other research from before.
I see citations of my work in articles by a long list of authors at Indian institutions published in zero-impact Indian journals. I assume this is happening in order to check productivity boxes at the institutions where they work. I don't think those citations are meaningful, nor is your student's inclusion on such an author list.
It sounds as if this student could benefit from more fundamental training on the role of scientific publishing in the context of your present school and its peers. That training would include how to write in this venue. It will be a lot of work. That is work you hadn't counted on, but probably inescapable if you want this student to succeed.
One of the most important aspects of graduate school is teaching the norms of the field as well as of academia in general (and also, to an extent, jobs outside of academia).
I am a historian and the norms of science and history are completely different.
That said, it is not immediately clear why you are upset; and if it is not clear to me, I doubt that it will be clear to your students.
Are you upset because
1. He published a dreck article?
2. He published in a dreck journal?
3. He did this using your university as an affiliation?
4. He published without telling you?
5. He is spending time doing other research outside his PhD?
6. The student in general is a disappointment to you?
All of these could be valid reasons, but you need to make clear which one(s) is/are bothering you. You also need to articulate what you want the student to do about all of this.
As others have said, part of being an advisor is socializing your grad students in what the norms of the discipline/academia are. Perhaps this student cannot tell what is a good journal or what is not. Maybe he doesn't understand that a bad publication in a bad journal might be worse than no publication at all. It seems this student is from oversees. Is it possible that academia from his home country has different norms and that a dreck publication might not be so bad? There is quite a bit to parse in the sentence: "It is kind of trash journal, but it is a small start for me😅"
In any case, I think you need to clarify--first to yourself, and then to your student--what is wrong about what he did, and then what you want him to do in the future.
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 27, 2023, 03:48:28 PM
I am a historian and the norms of science and history are completely different.
That said, it is not immediately clear why you are upset; and if it is not clear to me, I doubt that it will be clear to your students.
Are you upset because
1. He published a dreck article? Yes
2. He published in a dreck journal? Yes
3. He did this using your university as an affiliation?
4. He published without telling you?
5. He is spending time doing other research outside his PhD?
6. The student in general is a disappointment to you?
All of these could be valid reasons, but you need to make clear which one(s) is/are bothering you. You also need to articulate what you want the student to do about all of this.
As others have said, part of being an advisor is socializing your grad students in what the norms of the discipline/academia are. Perhaps this student cannot tell what is a good journal or what is not. Maybe he doesn't understand that a bad publication in a bad journal might be worse than no publication at all. It seems this student is from oversees. Is it possible that academia from his home country has different norms and that a dreck publication might not be so bad? There is quite a bit to parse in the sentence: "It is kind of trash journal, but it is a small start for me😅"
In any case, I think you need to clarify--first to yourself, and then to your student--what is wrong about what he did, and then what you want him to do in the future.
1. He published a dreck article? Yes
2. He published in a dreck journal? Yes
3. He did this using your university as an affiliation? Yes
4. He published without telling you? Yes
5. He is spending time doing other research outside his PhD? Yes
6. The student in general is a disappointment to you? No as TA /Yes as RA
Quote from: sambaprof on February 27, 2023, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: jerseyjay on February 27, 2023, 03:48:28 PM
I am a historian and the norms of science and history are completely different.
That said, it is not immediately clear why you are upset; and if it is not clear to me, I doubt that it will be clear to your students.
Are you upset because
1. He published a dreck article? Yes
2. He published in a dreck journal? Yes
3. He did this using your university as an affiliation?
4. He published without telling you?
5. He is spending time doing other research outside his PhD?
6. The student in general is a disappointment to you?
All of these could be valid reasons, but you need to make clear which one(s) is/are bothering you. You also need to articulate what you want the student to do about all of this.
As others have said, part of being an advisor is socializing your grad students in what the norms of the discipline/academia are. Perhaps this student cannot tell what is a good journal or what is not. Maybe he doesn't understand that a bad publication in a bad journal might be worse than no publication at all. It seems this student is from oversees. Is it possible that academia from his home country has different norms and that a dreck publication might not be so bad? There is quite a bit to parse in the sentence: "It is kind of trash journal, but it is a small start for me😅"
In any case, I think you need to clarify--first to yourself, and then to your student--what is wrong about what he did, and then what you want him to do in the future.
1. He published a dreck article? Yes
2. He published in a dreck journal? Yes
3. He did this using your university as an affiliation? Yes
4. He published without telling you? Yes
5. He is spending time doing other research outside his PhD? Yes
6. The student in general is a disappointment to you? No as TA /Yes as RA
You can do the following trick: tell the student that you might not be able to support him as an RA after summer unless he publishes a paper at a certain venue (or a set of venues that you like) by summer. See how the student reacts. He might think he can play with you and do research with others at the same time, but when he feels you might pull his funding, he will probably get his shit together.
If the student believes that he is "smarter" than you or he can play with you, feel free to play with him until he realizes that you are the advisor and he is the student.
If these are the reasons you are upset, I think that you need to spell it out and not assume that any of this is obvious. It may, in fact, be obvious for professionals in your field. But your job is to make you student a professional in your field.
Again, from a historian's perspective, none of this is obvious. Nowadays, a graduate student in many humanities fields is supposed to be publishing outside research and the advisor does not have a propriety relationship to them. If my advisor had told me he is the advisor and I am the student, in the way that research_prof implies, I would have most likely looked for another advisor. To me, the main failing in what you describe is not that the student published stuff outside of his PhD, but that he published bad stuff in a bad journal.
My point is not to argue that you are not right to be offended or that the student was right in what he did. Rather, you need to make clear why you are offended and what you want him to do. Just getting angry ("shocked") is unlikely to accomplish much. Your attitude, to me, seems more similar to somebody who discovers that their spouse is cheating on them than somebody who is disappointed that a professional relationship isn't working out. Spell out what your expectations are (e.g., that the student only work on research in your lab and shows you all research before he publishes it) and what will happen if these are not me (e.g., you will drop him, and his funding). I have no idea whether this is the norm in your field since they are not the norm in my field, but I think your job as an advisor includes spelling out what the norms in your field are.
+1 to everything jerseyjay said.
I'm in a lab science field, and all of this applies in the sciences too, with the exception that we do publish with our students. Nonetheless, it is not at all uncommon for students to also publish papers that your PhD advisor is not involved with-- often these are papers that come from labs the student was in previously (undergrad, masters, or research staff positions)-- if they contributed to research in those previous labs in a way that merits authorship, they should be included as authors, and those papers may be submitted well after they have moved on (the wheels of research often turn slowly as well all know). Students sometimes also work with other faculty (e.g., during a lab rotation) and publish with them. This is all good and to be encouraged, so long as it isn't interfering with their ability to do their dissertation work in a timely manner.
1-2 are legitimate issues to talk with him about, not because they impact you but because they impact the student's career and are things you have a responsibility to educate them about as their advisor.
3. is debatable as an issue-- arguably you should list the affiliation where the work was done, but if he was working on the paper while in the current program both should be listed. Again, not something to get angry about.
4-5 are not problems at all-- again, you don't own the student, and have no call to be telling them they can't publish except with you.
6 is an issue but isn't really related to this paper so far as I can see. Does the student know in what way they need to improve and what your expectations are of them? Do they have an IEP laying out those goals and a roadmap to them? Do you have a plan for helping them get there? If the answer to any of those questions is "no" then that is on you as their mentor. It is also important to remember that your grad students are not you-- people who become faculty are not like the majority of grad students (survivorship bias). You need to calibrate your expectations accordingly.
I had a chat with the student in person this morning. He says that he has recently involved in the Facebook group from middle east. He said in this activity, he spends only few hours of research, where he gives little output and the goal is to publish with a large set of authors. He told that since he joined only recently that group he has not published yet through that group yet.
Quote from: sambaprof on February 28, 2023, 07:16:46 AM
I had a chat with the student in person this morning. He says that he has recently involved in the Facebook group from middle east. He said in this activity, he spends only few hours of research, where he gives little output and the goal is to publish with a large set of authors. He told that since he joined only recently that group he has not published yet through that group yet.
If you are in the US, your grant support (RA) is probably only for 20 hours (max) per week on the project supported by the grant. You can expect an additional 20 hours per week in his role as a student, for a total of 40 hours per week on projects you support/advise. The remainder of his time is his own. If he chooses to spend some of that time continuing to work on his PhD project, he will finish sooner than if he spends that time working on possibly bad collaborative research projects with others. However, as long as he is not putting your name on such publications without your permission, he is free to spend his not-work hours as he wishes.
Quote from: sambaprof on February 28, 2023, 07:16:46 AM
I had a chat with the student in person this morning. He says that he has recently involved in the Facebook group from middle east. He said in this activity, he spends only few hours of research, where he gives little output and the goal is to publish with a large set of authors. He told that since he joined only recently that group he has not published yet through that group yet.
I have read this several times, and I am not sure I understand it, either what it means or if (or why) the OP finds it upsetting. I raise this because there might be some sort of failure of communication between the OP and their student. Also, the OP seems to assume at times that their displeasure is obviously rational, but it is possible that his student doesn't see it this away. Again, my point is not that the OP is wrong, but that they need to explain it to the student.
I am not sure whether it is a good idea for the student to spend so much time in a Facebook group--in general, I think social media is the enemy of actual work. That said, if the student is from the Middle East and the group comprises other students from the area, the student might find it useful to belong to the group, and in fact it might be useful for his future career, if some of the people in the group will be future colleagues. On a personal level the student might find it useful to counter the
saudade of being a foreign student.
But the post is written in such a way as to imply that participation in Facebook group is itself research, with the goal of publishing. Certainly Facebook can be a medium to facilitate collaboration between researchers, but is it itself research? When I was a grad student in history, I spent time on H-Net, and I found it useful for my own research--though it itself was not research.
Again, in history (and I think many fields), grad students are supposed to seek avenues to publish. I sometimes wish this were not the case, and that they had the luxury to focus on their PhD. But the reality is, no history PhD is going to get a job at a decent school without having at least one or two publications. The type of publications is of course important, which, again, is partially the job of the advisor as mentor. Is it possible that the student is being told by other students--in his or other fields--that he needs to publish as much as possible?
My advice is that the OP be clear in what they expect, and explain it as clearly as possible. And also to have patience because being a scientist, I assume, is more than just knowing the science. Part of the advisor's job is to mentor the student in this understanding.
There are many very bright students who are lab klutzes, or don't know norms, etc. There are also great lab students who can't do algebra or write if their life depended on it. I don't have grad students, but I assume that the basic principle holds: you have to work with what you get. Of course, there are standards, and if at some point you feel like you have to boot someone, then do so. However, I think pulling funding in a couple of months based on what they can publish right now is perhaps bit too strict of a standard. However, at some point, maybe you would have to do that.
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 28, 2023, 10:03:28 AM
There are many very bright students who are lab klutzes, or don't know norms, etc. There are also great lab students who can't do algebra or write if their life depended on it. I don't have grad students, but I assume that the basic principle holds: you have to work with what you get. Of course, there are standards, and if at some point you feel like you have to boot someone, then do so. However, I think pulling funding in a couple of months based on what they can publish right now is perhaps bit too strict of a standard. However, at some point, maybe you would have to do that.
Besides being unrealistic, it is a great way to encourage research misconduct-- if you make funding product (publication) rather than process (doing good work) contingent, you incentivize them p-hacking or even fabricating their way to a publication. Bad science and bad mentoring!
Quote from: sambaprof on February 28, 2023, 07:16:46 AM
I had a chat with the student in person this morning. He says that he has recently involved in the Facebook group from middle east. He said in this activity, he spends only few hours of research, where he gives little output and the goal is to publish with a large set of authors. He told that since he joined only recently that group he has not published yet through that group yet.
I hate this kind of logic: "let me do a bit of work and let's publish a crappy paper all together".
I feel you should talk to your student and explain to him that quality matters and paper publishing is not about quantity. No one will take him seriously after graduation if he has published 10 crappy papers. Everyone will take him seriously if he has published 5 strong papers.
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 27, 2023, 09:36:04 AM
One of the most important aspects of graduate school is teaching the norms of the field as well as of academia in general (and also, to an extent, jobs outside of academia).
Agree on this. And in my field, this student's behavior would fall outside the norm. But I've had something very similar happen to me before and genuinely think the student just didn't understand the norms, so I think OP should consider this part of the mentoring process.
If a student or postdoc is working on something from a previous lab they typically should share that info with the advisor. How are we supposed to mentor someone scientifically if we don't even know what they are working on?
It is then on the advisor to make reasonable accomodations, and there should be no expectation of authorship for the advisor. But also to be honest I would feel similar to OP if my student chose to work on low quality work. Our students are in some way a reflection of us, whether that's fair or not.
On the other hand, the suggestion from research_prof about playing mind games with funding sounds like abusive behavior and would earn one a bad rep and slim choice of trainees in my neck of the woods. Being a research advisor can be frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding. Don't let a few early bumps in the road turn you into a jerk.
I was talking to another colleague in our Department about this situation with this student.
During the conversation that colleague told me that this particular student sent an email to another Professor in our Department six months earlier requesting that he would like to change the advisor and if he can take that particular student as his advisor. But the other Professor rejected it telling that it would not look good and that he cannot take this particular student as the advisor. it looks like that other Professor told about this to the Colleague in the Department I was talking to today.
Quote from: sambaprof on March 01, 2023, 09:09:20 AM
I was talking to another colleague in our Department about this situation with this student.
During the conversation that colleague told me that this particular student sent an email to another Professor in our Department six months earlier requesting that he would like to change the advisor and if he can take that particular student as his advisor. But the other Professor rejected it telling that it would not look good and that he cannot take this particular student as the advisor. it looks like that other Professor told about this to the Colleague in the Department I was talking to today.
It sounds like both you and the student are questioning whether this is a good advisor-student match. At this point, I highly recommend consulting with the director of graduate studies or department chair (whomever is more appropriate/friendly) about the university/department process for dealing with issues like these. A bad student-advisor relationship is bad for both the student and advisor. Your school/department should have formal policies in place regarding how students can change advisors with the least negative impact on their prior project and best opportunity to start work with a different research group. These situations are always more fraught when they involve student funding (RAs). It is also important to create a paper trail when dealing with personnel issues (which this has now become). You will want to document what you have done in regards to advising/mentoring this student.
Quote from: Ruralguy on February 28, 2023, 10:03:28 AM
There are many very bright students who are lab klutzes, or don't know norms, etc. There are also great lab students who can't do algebra or write if their life depended on it. I don't have grad students, but I assume that the basic principle holds: you have to work with what you get. Of course, there are standards, and if at some point you feel like you have to boot someone, then do so. However, I think pulling funding in a couple of months based on what they can publish right now is perhaps bit too strict of a standard. However, at some point, maybe you would have to do that.
First gen here (as in first in my family to attend university, let alone pursue graduate studies). There are so many unspoken norms in academia that we first gens often make mistakes or faux pas, because no one has told us otherwise! I'm in STEM, and I've published non-dissertation work during my PhD, including 3 course papers I worked into papers good enough for publication, previous collaborations pre-PhD, and side projects I've worked on during my own time. If I shouldn't be doing those things, no one has ever told me so, but it may be one of those unwritten rules. It seems all my peers have academic, professional, or medical parents. My dad finished high school, my mom didn't. My grandparents, both sides, were farmers without even high school.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 08, 2023, 12:12:29 PM
There are so many unspoken norms in academia that we first gens often make mistakes or faux pas, because no one has told us otherwise!
I am not a first-generation university student; both my parents have graduate degrees (although neither is an academic). Nonetheless I think there are many things about graduate school that are not obvious to those for whom it is a new experience. For example, in history, we were supposed to read a monograph a week for each class; it took a while for me to figure out that "reading" a monograph for graduate school was different than "reading" a book in real life. Also, that our seminar papers should be part of the dissertation. Or that our coursework should be geared towards the reading list for the comps.
This all appears obvious to me now, but took some hard work (and luck) to figure out.
Thus I agree with MarathonRunner that these things should be explained. Again, part of an advisor's job is to socialize one's students into the norms of academia and one's specialization.
Quote from: jerseyjay on March 08, 2023, 04:12:20 PM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 08, 2023, 12:12:29 PM
There are so many unspoken norms in academia that we first gens often make mistakes or faux pas, because no one has told us otherwise!
I am not a first-generation university student; both my parents have graduate degrees (although neither is an academic). Nonetheless I think there are many things about graduate school that are not obvious to those for whom it is a new experience. For example, in history, we were supposed to read a monograph a week for each class; it took a while for me to figure out that "reading" a monograph for graduate school was different than "reading" a book in real life. Also, that our seminar papers should be part of the dissertation. Or that our coursework should be geared towards the reading list for the comps.
This all appears obvious to me now, but took some hard work (and luck) to figure out.
Thus I agree with MarathonRunner that these things should be explained. Again, part of an advisor's job is to socialize one's students into the norms of academia and one's specialization.
Yeah, and we're in the same field and a number of those things you described actually wouldn't have applied, or worked differently in my grad program. There are often all these program specific rules, some of which are formal, and others that are unstated. There were also all kinds of other things that were specific to my advisor in terms of the way he wanted us to operate and the kind of things he wanted us to involve him in and the the things he wanted us to do on our own-some of this stuff was field norms, but there were other professors in the department who expected very different things of their grad students. It is really important that when students seem to not be picking up on these norms, an advisor explains the issue. It's likely to be an awkward conversation, because nobody likes to hear that they've been doing things wrong, but it's one of those cases where the best thing to do is to be clear and direct. You need to explain to the student why publishing this article in that journal without telling you about was a bad idea.
I also wonder whether you could be seeing some of the aftereffects of covid. I learned most of this stuff from hanging out with other grad students-sometimes in the workroom, but also at various bars. Grad students talk way too much about their work and their advisors, but you do just pick up a lot of things through osmosis, especially if there are more advanced grad students around. Covid might have really disrupted some of this transmission of institutional knowledge. There's obviously nothing wrong with students having a Facebook group where they talk to students at other schools, but it seems like your student might be absorbing norms and practices from various randos in this group rather than from other grad students in the department.
This has probably died down in recent years, but in the 80's and 90's, a number of advisers and other professors had a habit of chiding when you asked a question that they deemed to be stupid, which was all of them! Nine times of ten, they weren't even correct with how they'd answer the question (with the chiding). This led to a lot of lying low, which probably led to certain things being missed because you didn't want to ask, or point out to the adviser that they got some detail about how to compose the dissertation committee wrong. I bailed slightly early because I couldn't take the atmosphere any longer. My dissertation probably suffered, though I got several publications, and likely my current job (and others), out of it.
This discussion is a good example of why it is important to have a "lab standards and expectations" document (not just a lab manual on procedures, though that's good too). Every lab here was required to create one this past summer, and at first I was skeptical (thought we didn't really need one already made expectations clear through discussions and IEPs, etc.), but it turned out (a) when talking to my grad students about what to include, it turned out that I wasn't nearly as clear and comprehensive as I thought I was when they were each starting out, and (b) it was a really good opportunity to think through some things and make some changes.
Take a deep breath.
This student needs guidance, not chastisement, at least not yet. Have another chat.
"Let's talk about publication expectations while you are studying here. A lot of people think any publication on the vita is a plus, at least a little one, but that is not true. When you publish in a predatory journal it sends a signal that you are not serious about the discipline and don't understand the norms of our profession. It makes you look bad. It hurts your chances for future grants and fellowships and even publications with legitimate journals. And it does not look great for our department either."
"I realize you probably did not know this. So here is what we are going to do..."
Then set out a procedure where the student will talk to you about any publications before they are submitted. Follow the meeting with an email outlining what has been agreed to.
The fact that this PhD student tried to publish in junk journals on his own is not the only issue.
I closely observed this particular PhD student for last two months and from my observation, his activities such as
a. blatant lies for example - telling other PhD student in the group that I told this particular student to do term project by himself instead of group work...
related to the course he is taking; b) Did not feel sorry a bit for gross mistake in grading - which I had to catch etc., is making me think it is better for both to break the advisor-advisee relationship. Also this particular student is on an early stage of PhD... not completed the candidacy... proposal
defense etc., Also as I mentioned earlier he reached out to other faculty last year by email in regards to switching the advisor (ie from me to other faculty) and is hanging out only because the other faculty did not want to support him citing that it will cause unnecessary friction among the Department faculty.
I am also advising three other PhD students, with whom I believe things are going well. I am also wondering what/how to
communicate that I will not be the advisor for this particular PhD student with these other students, so that the rest of the PhD students in the team are
still motivated to do research work with me and complete the PhD. Please advise.
Have you talked to your DGS and chair? At least in my university, you can't just unilaterally decide to kick a grad student out of your lab, there is a whole process. Either someone else has to agree to take them, or if there are serious problems that would warrant them being kicked out of the program all together, they have to have a warning letter with an improvement plan and a meaningful chance to improve before that happens. Nothing you've said here suggests that the student should be kicked out of the program, so unless another lab is willing and able to take them on, and that's mutually agreeable to the student, you probably need to work with them on improvement rather than just throwing them out.
In terms of the actual communication, I would think that you should really only tell your other students information relevant to them. Anything else is a potential FERPA violation and wouldn't be appropriate anyway. If this student is working cooperatively with other students in a lab and they aren't going to be doing that any longer, just say that in the context of reassigning duties or whatever without offering any other information. If it has no direct effect on the other students, I don't think you should write them at all. If somebody asked, you could probably say something that just acknowledges that he's not your advisee anymore and leave it at that.
The truth is that if this grad program is anything like mine, everyone will know that you dropped him as your advisee almost immediately and various gossip about the details will be circulating around. You can't control all of that, but you should assume your other advisees probably know about some of your unhappiness with this student and have opinions about it. How they react if you drop him as an advisee will really depend on whether you have clearly communicated your expectations and laid out consequences if those expectations aren't met. What you don't want your advisees to think is that you just sprung this on this student and it's part of a pattern of mercurial advising. That might worry them even if they share your opinion of the student. So, I think the most important thing is to make sure you've been clear with this student about what you expect and the consequences if they don't meet those expectations.
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
Quote from: bio-nonymous on May 22, 2023, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
All of this.
As a grad studies committee chair I always told students they need to find a mentor who will help the student develop into the scientist the
student wants to be, and that this is most likely to happen if students and mentors are open about their goals and expectations. And "this is not a good fit" is not necessarily anything negative about the student or the mentor, but instead is frequently a mismatch of goals and expectations.
As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.
Quote from: onthefringe on May 22, 2023, 07:43:14 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on May 22, 2023, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
All of this.
As a grad studies committee chair I always told students they need to find a mentor who will help the student develop into the scientist the student wants to be, and that this is most likely to happen if students and mentors are open about their goals and expectations. And "this is not a good fit" is not necessarily anything negative about the student or the mentor, but instead is frequently a mismatch of goals and expectations.
As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.
Yes exactly!
Illustrative story: Yesterday I had the privilege of hooding my PhD student who finished last summer (we only have one commencement ceremony a year so she had to wait for that). This is a student who for about her first three years really struggled with writing in particular, and productivity some overall. Her lab mates were far more successful in submitting and publishing papers than her. We both occasionally despaired. But! With a lot of coaching and discussions together, she eventually figured out what worked for her in terms of writing process and productivity. She put together a super ambitious dissertation proposal and then executed it beautifully, despite the pandemic throwing some major wrenches in the research process. There was another bleak period at the very end where she was way behind finishing writing up and I was pulling late nights getting her feedback, but she finished in time, gave a masterful defense, and graduated. At that point, she thought she wanted a non-academic but research focused position. She spent about 6 months searching for one to no avail. Then a long-term research scientist position came open in another school at our university, she got it, and it turns out to be the perfect fit for her. We are both so happy and proud of what she's achieved!
tldr version: Sometimes "problem" PhD students are just late bloomers who need some time and support to find their groove. If they eventually achieve *their* goals, then that's all that matters.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on May 22, 2023, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
I struggle with this, but my current thinking is: Expectations need to be set early on and then met by the student. There can be a little compromise towards the end, but ultimately the PhD needs to mean something. The student cannot decide what it takes and when they graduate, it must be the dissertation committee. And that committee needs to apply some sort of quality control, regardless of how long the student has been around or how good their job they got lined up is.
But as I said I struggle with this, because there also needs to be some flexibility, compromise, and introspection in the face of stubborn tendencies. I just worry: if taken to an extreme, we end up running a paper mill + a little free training for industry. I don't think we should give up on setting a bar for generating and disseminating new knowledge.
Quote from: fizzycist on May 22, 2023, 08:18:29 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on May 22, 2023, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
I struggle with this, but my current thinking is: Expectations need to be set early on and then met by the student. There can be a little compromise towards the end, but ultimately the PhD needs to mean something. The student cannot decide what it takes and when they graduate, it must be the dissertation committee. And that committee needs to apply some sort of quality control, regardless of how long the student has been around or how good their job they got lined up is.
But as I said I struggle with this, because there also needs to be some flexibility, compromise, and introspection in the face of stubborn tendencies. I just worry: if taken to an extreme, we end up running a paper mill + a little free training for industry. I don't think we should give up on setting a bar for generating and disseminating new knowledge.
I agree there need to be standards, and I think I and my department do have pretty tough standards (you can ask my students about the number of drafts we do!). BUT, to me the key point is the standard should NOT be "good enough to get a faculty job" if that is not the goal of the student. Rather to me, the bar is (1) the studies are of publishable quality (doesn't have to actually be published necessarily, though that's usually the goal, and doesn't have to be a top journal), (2) based on their work, I could whole-heartedly recommend them for the jobs *they* want to apply for, not for *my* job.
Quote from: onthefringe on May 22, 2023, 07:43:14 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on May 22, 2023, 06:49:59 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 18, 2023, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: sambaprof on May 17, 2023, 02:20:45 PM
Thank you all for providing your perspectives.
I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team. While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.
Good, this is almost always the right choice!
I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.
Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!
As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.
Thanks for sharing your perspectives.... What are the typical expectations you have for 1) a PhD student 2 ) a MS student...