I've just learned that one of my now-former colleagues is in a relationship with one of our now-graduated alumni. Their relationship began whilst the student was still a student, about a year before graduation. Traditional-aged (young) student, obviously older professor. While I am having feelings and reactions to this, I am curious to hear voices that aren't my own. Is a prof-student relationship inappropriate in this circumstance, even if not mentioned in university policy manuals? Is there any circumstance in which it is acceptable?
In the Netherlands this is not uncommon. I find it gross and highly inappropriate, but it happens a good bit. Surprising is that students often drink socially with professors here, which is just a disaster waiting to happen. At the national level there is a move towards a common code of acceptable conduct, and I expect that new standards will be implemented.
I file this very much under "who cares," unless the professor was the adviser/instructor and they had a sexual relationship when he/she was a student. That's an obvious "do not cross" line. Aside from that... everyone involved is an adult and free to make their own decisions. If anyone is not comfortable with the age gap, that's their own problem -- much like anyone not comfortable with a same-sex relationship can't impose their view on the couple.
I'm not fussed about the age gap, more the power imbalance inherent in a professor being in a sexual relationship with a student. They were collaborating, doing research together, etc. Does the power imbalance matter? Or is it simply assumed that the student was able to parse this and move ahead accordingly? [I suppose the other question is, if this is acceptable, why would they sneak around whilst doing it...?]
The situation you describe is not permitted at my institution. The power imbalance is but one of myriad complications that result in a compromised educational environment for many students.
If the relationship started while the student was under the professor's supervision, then the professor would be fired at my institution, tenure or no.
But the student is now graduated, right?
Is the student working as a paid research assistant or in some other paid capacity?
The lines of reportage have something to do with whether this is OK, or not.
If they're employed by the school, and the prof is their supervisor, then I'd say, "No way."
And otherwise, I don't think it's a good idea, generally (and it should have waited until AFTER the student graduated, in all cases), but that horse has passed the gate.
So...hmmm....
The other issue is, are you asking because you think you should alert someone?
That's another....hmmmm....., I suspect. If it's an employee, maybe? Or maybe not...they being adults and all.
One of those things you'd probably rather not have found out, because now you have to figure out what to do about it, if anything...
M.
Four of the professors in my department (not just at our institution, but in one department) are married to former students. They did not wait until the students had graduated to start the relationship.
Does this mean it's okay? Hard to say. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's a disaster, and when it's a disaster, it's almost always the student who suffers. I would say that the professor should never be the student's supervisor or professor, and that even then, it's highly inadvisable. But ...
I worked in the same department as a guy who married his former undergraduate student. They were "dating" while she was a student and he was not allowed to assess any of her work but was allowed to have the relationship. Icky and weird. I think they've been married for 25 years now and have a kid. He's been retired for a few years, much to everyone's relief.
Obviously some people are going to rush to judgment, some are going to say that there are warning signs in such relationships with power imbalances, and others are going to say that so long as there was no coercion, there are no problems. In order to make your own judgment, you need to formulate your theories of power in relationships, age and gender differences, patriarchy, and professorial responsibility.
I don't really think you will find many relationships without power imbalances, so if you want to condemn this particular one, you should probably condemn most relationships.
I got into a relationship with my professor and after we were married became her department chair. It worked out ok.
One of the problems I've seen is a policy on student-faculty relationships, or sexual harassment (the former can be defined as being a form of the latter), being inconsistently applied by administration.
If people don't want to resist being in love, you can't stop 'em. (Thanks to Yogi Berra)
I find downer's reply disingenuous. Many relationships may have power imbalances, but the university has a duty of care. Saying that because many/all relationships have power imbalances, it's okay for a professor to, say, grade a student differently because he is in a relationship with her, or used to be in a relationship with her but now holds a grudge.... No, not okay. Not even if he's giving her a superior grade out of favoritism. Universities should ensure that the system is as fair as possible, and these situations are demonstrably unfair. And for whatever reason, significant numbers of these professors are serial predators of young women, and vindictive to boot. I think there is no question that these relationships are egregious and should not be permitted.
The gray area is where a professor and a student are in the same department, but the professor has no supervisory power over the student. And of course the situations where the professor is mature, moral, and careful not to disadvantage the student. If only there were some kind of geiger-counter test that could distinguish the predators from the reasonable people. But as we see every day, there is not.
The Pelican Brief also comes to mind....
M.
I don't know, it's a very complicated and ethical issue. I think these kind of things do happen, some people genuinely fall in love with one another. Was speaking with someone about a prof in my city who married his student, they've been together for 15 years. However, I am not comfortable at all if this happens while the prof is an authority figure to the student (meaning if the prof is currently teaching the student). I wouldn't encourage it, but depending on the circumstances, I wouldn't condemn it despite feeling uncomfortable with the idea.
Where I live, there's been a lot of advocacy for sexual violence on university campuses, a bill has been passed, but one of the criticism by many advocates was that the bill doesn't hinder student-professor relationships.
I feel like all this discussion over whether there is genuine love or not is beside the point. Patients can genuinely fall in love with their doctors. Military personnel can genuinely fall in love with their commanding officers. Hell, prisoners can (I imagine) genuinely fall in love with their correctional officers. But in those cases I think most reasonable people would agree that the preexisting professional and power ties between these people preclude any ethical relationship, until those ties have been changed---the patient switches doctors, the prisoner is released or the CO reassigned, the military people are discharged or transferred so there are no direct chains of command*.
To me, the student-professor relationship falls under this category: no matter how true and genuine the love is, the preexisting power structure makes consumating that relationship ethically suspect. And I don't mean the power structure that comes from direct supervision or teaching. I mean the power structure that comes from a person with a PhD being in a position to make introductions and write letters of recommendation whose value depends on the assumption that the assessment is professional, rather than personal. Waiting for this power structure to evaporate is not unreasonale: students will not be students forever, and they should just keep their f*cking pants on until Stu graduates. As I get older and crotchetier, and as I see more and more stories about people in power ruining other people's lives and careers because they couldn't control themselves, I have less and less patience with the 'TWU WUV' excuse. If the wuv is twu, it can wait until Stu finishes college.
*I know nothing about how military things work, so I'm really basing this sense of appropriate ethical behavior on Star Trek. Please feel free to correct me if there's an accepted procedure in place.
Quote from: ergative on September 22, 2019, 11:58:23 PM
I feel like all this discussion over whether there is genuine love or not is beside the point. Patients can genuinely fall in love with their doctors. Military personnel can genuinely fall in love with their commanding officers. Hell, prisoners can (I imagine) genuinely fall in love with their correctional officers. But in those cases I think most reasonable people would agree that the preexisting professional and power ties between these people preclude any ethical relationship, until those ties have been changed---the patient switches doctors, the prisoner is released or the CO reassigned, the military people are discharged or transferred so there are no direct chains of command*.
To me, the student-professor relationship falls under this category: no matter how true and genuine the love is, the preexisting power structure makes consumating that relationship ethically suspect. And I don't mean the power structure that comes from direct supervision or teaching. I mean the power structure that comes from a person with a PhD being in a position to make introductions and write letters of recommendation whose value depends on the assumption that the assessment is professional, rather than personal. Waiting for this power structure to evaporate is not unreasonale: students will not be students forever, and they should just keep their f*cking pants on until Stu graduates. As I get older and crotchetier, and as I see more and more stories about people in power ruining other people's lives and careers because they couldn't control themselves, I have less and less patience with the 'TWU WUV' excuse. If the wuv is twu, it can wait until Stu finishes college.
*I know nothing about how military things work, so I'm really basing this sense of appropriate ethical behavior on Star Trek. Please feel free to correct me if there's an accepted procedure in place.
The military has rules against "fraternization". if you're curious, start here: https://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/command/docs/dap60035.pdf (https://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/command/docs/dap60035.pdf) One thing that you'll note is that the relationships don't have to be sexual to be prohibited. (Gambling is forbidden, for example.) Nor do they necessarily have to be ones of direct supervision, so "waiting it out" might actually mean somebody mustering out.
My institution just issued its formal policy on "consensual relationships". Since I am in one -- trailing spouse -- I read it carefully. We could have a supervisory relationship, like Spork, but would have to have a parallel line of supervision set up. That's happened for parents & children on our campus for analogous reasons.
My sense of the room is that these relations are more common (and problematic) between staff / administrators and students on my campus. Those of you with robust athletics programs might like to take note. But it's also come up in our ROTC unit, at all levels; anti-fraternization rules apply among students, too, if they have ranks.
People have made lots of cases for a particular place to draw the line. Different people find different answers. That sets the stage for dangerous misunderstandings. Make sure that your institutions policy has no gray areas. Ambiguity in the rules on this issue results in grievances, lawsuits, firings and lingering hard feelings. Check what your policy is, and suggest quick action from the head of the faculty senate if there isn't one.
While much of the discussion has focused on the love life of various individuals, that is not what the institution wants to police. The most important issue from the institution's perspective is equitable treatment of all students. If faculty are having relationships with students, it creates a powerful impression of unfairness in the treatment of students. That situation should be unacceptable just about everyone.
Quote from: Hibush on September 23, 2019, 05:21:22 AM
While much of the discussion has focused on the love life of various individuals, that is not what the institution wants to police. The most important issue from the institution's perspective is equitable treatment of all students. If faculty are having relationships with students, it creates a powerful impression of unfairness in the treatment of students. That situation should be unacceptable just about everyone.
I'm not sure that's true. It is a concern. There is a question in such relationships of who is using who.
Seems to me that the central concern these days is that faculty are coercing students into relationships. I.e. that "voluntary relationships" are not really voluntary.
Here's an article about the recent surge of policy on faculty-student relationships and the #me-too influence. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/24/academe-sees-new-wave-faculty-student-relationship-restrictions-era-me-too
One issue that no-one has mentioned that I've heard of is that someone who gets a PhD and has a romantic relationship with the supervisor can have a hard time getting hired because the degree is suspect. Whether the relationship lasts or not, it's going to be impossible to prove that the student's performance was evaluated completely objectively.
Quote from: fast_and_bulbous on September 22, 2019, 02:50:38 PM
I worked in the same department as a guy who married his former undergraduate student. They were "dating" while she was a student and he was not allowed to assess any of her work but was allowed to have the relationship. Icky and weird. I think they've been married for 25 years now and have a kid. He's been retired for a few years, much to everyone's relief.
I've seen something like this happen. One of my undergrad profs began quietly dating a student who was about a year older than I during her senior year. They married a year or two after I graduated, i.e. two or three years after she did. He was a rather young prof, so the age difference was not all that great. She went to work for the university in a staff capacity outside his department. Last I heard they were both still there and still married.
This was at a church-affiliated school where a lot of eyes would have been on them. They seem to have taken all due care to avoid any appearance of impropriety. As far as I know, nobody ever gave them a hard time over it.
Quote from: downer on September 22, 2019, 03:35:20 PM
I don't really think you will find many relationships without power imbalances, so if you want to condemn this particular one, you should probably condemn most relationships.
I'm not really interested in condemning relationships. If this is just out in the world, I'm not really called upon to approve of or condemn anything. I'm more concerned about what relationships like that do to the relationships between students and faculty at a school. If a faculty member is viewing students as potential romantic partners, that isn't compatible with appropriate teacher student relationships. I don't think that's true about other sorts of power imbalances. Colleagues dating needs to be approached with some caution, but it isn't inherently damaging to norms in the way that a teacher-student relationship is.
Quote from: Hibush on September 23, 2019, 05:21:22 AM
People have made lots of cases for a particular place to draw the line. Different people find different answers. That sets the stage for dangerous misunderstandings. Make sure that your institutions policy has no gray areas. Ambiguity in the rules on this issue results in grievances, lawsuits, firings and lingering hard feelings. Check what your policy is, and suggest quick action from the head of the faculty senate if there isn't one.
While much of the discussion has focused on the love life of various individuals, that is not what the institution wants to police. The most important issue from the institution's perspective is equitable treatment of all students. If faculty are having relationships with students, it creates a powerful impression of unfairness in the treatment of students. That situation should be unacceptable just about everyone.
Yes, it seems pretty easy to me. If there is a conflict of interest, or the potential for a conflict of interest, there should be policies in place to address it. A professor should not be able to have any influence on the grades of their partner.
If it is something like an English professor dating an engineering student at the university and there is no potential COI, I dont see an issue since they are both adults without any real professional interaction.
If we distinguish between relationships between on the one hand faculty and their current students, or students who they have direct power over, and on the other hand, faculty and students who they have only very indirect authority, we can probably sort out a lot of the problems with abuses of the teacher-student relationship and special treatment (positive or negative) of the student by the faculty member.
I'm less inclined to say that the area of college education is one where people are especially vulnerable compared with other workplaces. I guess some campuses are sheltered and their students are naive, but they are all adults. For most faculty, most students are, to borrow a phrase, just warm bodies. I don't see anything particular special about the pedagogical teacher-student relationship that means we should apply different standards to it.
In a new type of inappropriate-relationship situation (with certain parallels), Purdue is considering prohibiting professors from betting on Purdue football. (CHE story (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Purdue-U-Wants-to-Bar/247201))
The problematic scenarios are mostly implied, but they have to do with uneven treatment. For example: If a star player is in a professor's course, that professor could put extra pressure on the student before a game, and then bet against Purdue.
Isn't passing of the professor's gene the most efficient way to transfer knowledge? The student gets everything from the professor quickly this way without the need to study hard.
I have 2 colleagues that married former students. Personally, I don't know what a fully grown adult sees in a romantic relationship with somebody in or barely out of their teens, but that's just me and maybe it's different if they are a graduate student.
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
The number of careers (both faculty and student) that have gone down the swirler due to an inability to maintain one's zipper in the fully upright and locked position is incalculable. I work with a lot of cute students, but getting involved with one seems like a really bad idea. Plus Mrs Artem would not be happy.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
I saw Oleanna not long after starting a faculty position. It is memorable.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
The #metoo moment occurs when a person of power uses that power to extract sexual favors from someone, with the threat of damage to their career if they refuse. It is
not -A broken relationship
-An accusation of misconduct
-A general feeling of sympathy for the wrongdoer who should have known better than to get involved.
I am sympathetic to people who are wrongly accused of sexual misconduct and have their careers damaged as a result. But those situations are
not #metoo moments, and I really wish people would stop lumping them all together. The conflation only does damage to the genuine situations.
Quote from: Hibush on September 23, 2019, 02:46:06 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
I saw Oleanna not long after starting a faculty position. It is memorable.
Ah, yes,
Oleanna. A female student lies about rape because she knows that the university's real power structures will favor the accuser. Her male professor responds by beating the s--t out of her. Just a lot of helpful lessons for everyone.
Quote from: downer on September 23, 2019, 10:46:27 AM
If we distinguish between relationships between on the one hand faculty and their current students, or students who they have direct power over, and on the other hand, faculty and students who they have only very indirect authority, we can probably sort out a lot of the problems with abuses of the teacher-student relationship and special treatment (positive or negative) of the student by the faculty member.
For most faculty, most students are, to borrow a phrase, just warm bodies. I don't see anything particular special about the pedagogical teacher-student relationship that means we should apply different standards to it.
Well I don't think of my students that way... I don't think I'd be a very good instructor if I did. And that's why I just don't agree. I think this is much more akin to professional rules that doctors or therapists have around dating students. The point of the rules is not that the relationships would inherently be abusive or bad for those involved. The principle is that introducing sex and dating into that realm, threatens the relationship necessary for the profession to work as intended.
How exactly this works probably has to depend on institution. If we are talking about a small liberal arts college, I think a no involvement with current students policy makes a lot of sense. Probably the same policy at a large regional University with lots of older students would be unworkable.
Quote from: ergative on September 23, 2019, 11:12:18 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
The #metoo moment occurs when a person of power uses that power to extract sexual favors from someone, with the threat of damage to their career if they refuse. It is not
-A broken relationship
-An accusation of misconduct
-A general feeling of sympathy for the wrongdoer who should have known better than to get involved.
I am sympathetic to people who are wrongly accused of sexual misconduct and have their careers damaged as a result. But those situations are not #metoo moments, and I really wish people would stop lumping them all together. The conflation only does damage to the genuine situations.
But the very nature (and
name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "me
TOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
Quote from: Caracal on September 24, 2019, 07:46:36 AM
Quote from: downer on September 23, 2019, 10:46:27 AM
If we distinguish between relationships between on the one hand faculty and their current students, or students who they have direct power over, and on the other hand, faculty and students who they have only very indirect authority, we can probably sort out a lot of the problems with abuses of the teacher-student relationship and special treatment (positive or negative) of the student by the faculty member.
For most faculty, most students are, to borrow a phrase, just warm bodies. I don't see anything particular special about the pedagogical teacher-student relationship that means we should apply different standards to it.
Well I don't think of my students that way... I don't think I'd be a very good instructor if I did. And that's why I just don't agree. I think this is much more akin to professional rules that doctors or therapists have around dating students. The point of the rules is not that the relationships would inherently be abusive or bad for those involved. The principle is that introducing sex and dating into that realm, threatens the relationship necessary for the profession to work as intended.
How exactly this works probably has to depend on institution. If we are talking about a small liberal arts college, I think a no involvement with current students policy makes a lot of sense. Probably the same policy at a large regional University with lots of older students would be unworkable.
I see what you mean and there is plenty of variation from person to person, place to place, and it may depend on whether a faculty member is developing an educational relationship with a student in their major over 4 years versus teaching a large gen ed class for a semester. Are those professional relationships different in kind from other everyday relationships with one's car mechanic, doctor, yoga instructor, mail deliverer, co-workers, bosses, or life coach? I know that sometimes the student-teacher relationship can be intense and personal, but then so can other relationships. As I've said, I'm not inclined to think that there's something particularly special about that student-teacher relationship, but there will be some exceptions.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 08:37:08 AM
I see what you mean and there is plenty of variation from person to person, place to place, and it may depend on whether a faculty member is developing an educational relationship with a student in their major over 4 years versus teaching a large gen ed class for a semester. Are those professional relationships different in kind from other everyday relationships with one's car mechanic, doctor, yoga instructor, mail deliverer, co-workers, bosses, or life coach? I know that sometimes the student-teacher relationship can be intense and personal, but then so can other relationships. As I've said, I'm not inclined to think that there's something particularly special about that student-teacher relationship, but there will be some exceptions.
If someone else in town is hot for the car mechanic, it doesn't affect how your car is repaired. But if another student in your class is in a relationship with the instructor, it has a big impact on your educational experience. That's a difference that institutional policies should address.
Do you think your school's rules are clearly drawn and appropriate to the type of institution?
Quote from: Hibush on September 24, 2019, 09:06:38 AM
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 08:37:08 AM
I see what you mean and there is plenty of variation from person to person, place to place, and it may depend on whether a faculty member is developing an educational relationship with a student in their major over 4 years versus teaching a large gen ed class for a semester. Are those professional relationships different in kind from other everyday relationships with one's car mechanic, doctor, yoga instructor, mail deliverer, co-workers, bosses, or life coach? I know that sometimes the student-teacher relationship can be intense and personal, but then so can other relationships. As I've said, I'm not inclined to think that there's something particularly special about that student-teacher relationship, but there will be some exceptions.
If someone else in town is hot for the car mechanic, it doesn't affect how your car is repaired. But if another student in your class is in a relationship with the instructor, it has a big impact on your educational experience. That's a difference that institutional policies should address.
Do you think your school's rules are clearly drawn and appropriate to the type of institution?
I'm not so confident about your predictions regarding the mechanic or the class. But I agree that in a class, a professor should not be having a torrid relationship with a current student. (I'm less sure that it is a problem to have one's spouse in a class.) And if you are dating a car mechanic, they should give you a deal on working on your car.
I am teaching at 3 schools this semester. I have no idea what the precise policy is at any of the schools. No one has ever mentioned it. I don't think it has even been in those mandatory online training/indoctrination certificates I have had to go through.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 10:51:20 AM
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 08:37:08 AM
Are those professional relationships different in kind from other everyday relationships with one's car mechanic, doctor, yoga instructor, mail deliverer, co-workers, bosses, or life coach? I know that sometimes the student-teacher relationship can be intense and personal, but then so can other relationships. As I've said, I'm not inclined to think that there's something particularly special about that student-teacher relationship, but there will be some exceptions.
I'm not so confident about your predictions regarding the mechanic or the class. But I agree that in a class, a professor should not be having a torrid relationship with a current student. And if you are dating a car mechanic, they should give you a deal on working on your car.
This is why these relationships are fundamentally different, unless you think profs
should grade someone they're in a relationship with differently.
Quote
(I'm less sure that it is a problem to have one's spouse in a class.)
So having someone that you are
definitely having sex with (one supposes) is less of a problem than someone who you
might have sex with???? That makes no sense at all.
Hmm. Maybe you haven't been married.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 10:51:20 AM
I'm not so confident about your predictions regarding the mechanic or the class. But I agree that in a class, a professor should not be having a torrid relationship with a current student. (I'm less sure that it is a problem to have one's spouse in a class.)
I think it is still pretty bad if a professor begins a relationship with a student after the class. First of all it raises the question of fairness. If the instructor was thinking of asking a student out or had romantic feelings they later acted on, how can we know that doesn't effect the grade. More to the point, how can other students know that. It also introduces the possibility that the instructor sees his classes as a dating pool and this perception might extend to other professors who have nothing to do with the relationship.
When a student takes one of my classes, we do enter into a relationship. Often, the connection is pretty shallow, the student takes the class, gets a grade and moves on. But, sometimes I get to know students better and I keep seeing them after the class ends. But, I can't imagine having these relationships with students without clear boundaries. A student might take another class with me, I might write them a letter of rec, they might ask me for advice about something with their academic careers. I am not going to sleep with them. It just isn't a possible option and if it becomes one, or students believe that it is in the range of things that could occur, everything gets screwed up.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
Hmm. Maybe you haven't been married.
For supposing that they'd be having sex? Or for suggesting that sharing a house, bank account, children, and a remote control with someone
might make one less likely to be completely objective?
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 23, 2019, 11:12:18 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
The #metoo moment occurs when a person of power uses that power to extract sexual favors from someone, with the threat of damage to their career if they refuse. It is not
-A broken relationship
-An accusation of misconduct
-A general feeling of sympathy for the wrongdoer who should have known better than to get involved.
I am sympathetic to people who are wrongly accused of sexual misconduct and have their careers damaged as a result. But those situations are not #metoo moments, and I really wish people would stop lumping them all together. The conflation only does damage to the genuine situations.
But the very nature (and name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "meTOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
No, dude, 'meTOO' is because these direct abuses of power are more common than many would believe or be willing to admit. It's not 'Come join our club'. It's 'How could you have miss this huge honking clubhouse in the middle of your living room all this time?'
We are not trying to persuade people---mostly women---to reconsider their experiences in a new light. We are trying to persuade other people---mostly men---to recognize that our experiences are common, not exceptional.
The fact that the interpretation keeps shifting away from that is evidence that people---mostly men---are not listening.
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2019, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 23, 2019, 11:12:18 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 23, 2019, 02:35:55 PM
One other concern would be for the relationship to disintegrate and result in a #metoo moment at which case the faculty member is at risk even more than the student. Didn't David Mamet write a play more or less to that effect?
The #metoo moment occurs when a person of power uses that power to extract sexual favors from someone, with the threat of damage to their career if they refuse. It is not
-A broken relationship
-An accusation of misconduct
-A general feeling of sympathy for the wrongdoer who should have known better than to get involved.
I am sympathetic to people who are wrongly accused of sexual misconduct and have their careers damaged as a result. But those situations are not #metoo moments, and I really wish people would stop lumping them all together. The conflation only does damage to the genuine situations.
But the very nature (and name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "meTOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
No, dude, 'meTOO' is because these direct abuses of power are more common than many would believe or be willing to admit. It's not 'Come join our club'. It's 'How could you have miss this huge honking clubhouse in the middle of your living room all this time?'
We are not trying to persuade people---mostly women---to reconsider their experiences in a new light. We are trying to persuade other people---mostly men---to recognize that our experiences are common, not exceptional.
The fact that the interpretation keeps shifting away from that is evidence that people---mostly men---are not listening.
As the poster who originally used the #metoo analogy, I do take your point but would also offer that when it comes to hashtags and other kinds of social media in the ether at any given time, I don't think there is some universally agreed upon definition. I'll take this as a learning experience and try and be more careful in my terminology.
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2019, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
But the very nature (and name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "meTOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
No, dude, 'meTOO' is because these direct abuses of power are more common than many would believe or be willing to admit. It's not 'Come join our club'. It's 'How could you have miss this huge honking clubhouse in the middle of your living room all this time?'
We are not trying to persuade people---mostly women---to reconsider their experiences in a new light. We are trying to persuade other people---mostly men---to recognize that our experiences are common, not exceptional.
The fact that the interpretation keeps shifting away from that is evidence that people---mostly men---are not listening.
My point is that "metoo" is used in relation to Bill Cosby AND Aziz Ansari. Suggesting these are similar examples of "women having bad experiences with men" is like saying a hurricane and a light drizzle are similar examples of "rain".
I think the power dynamic is the big question here. Two fully grown adults with no power or level of control in workplace/school between them are very different from a professor dating their grad student. A former colleague at a different institution from where I am at now had began dating her married professor/PhD advisor and they are still dating years later. Supposedly they cannot get married because she desires to move back to her PhD institution in his department and the rules at the institution prevent a spouse from hired into the same program (this is not a school in the US) because of nepotism. But, apparently dating your grad student was not prohibited? None the less, I think this is very nuanced. As others have hinted at, suppose a returning adult student in nursing meets an English professor at yoga class. They would not know each other from School, only from the community. Should they be prevented from dating by an overarching rule? I don't know...
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 25, 2019, 05:22:31 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2019, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
But the very nature (and name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "meTOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
No, dude, 'meTOO' is because these direct abuses of power are more common than many would believe or be willing to admit. It's not 'Come join our club'. It's 'How could you have miss this huge honking clubhouse in the middle of your living room all this time?'
We are not trying to persuade people---mostly women---to reconsider their experiences in a new light. We are trying to persuade other people---mostly men---to recognize that our experiences are common, not exceptional.
The fact that the interpretation keeps shifting away from that is evidence that people---mostly men---are not listening.
My point is that "metoo" is used in relation to Bill Cosby AND Aziz Ansari. Suggesting these are similar examples of "women having bad experiences with men" is like saying a hurricane and a light drizzle are similar examples of "rain".
Me Too was a hashtag and then became an amorphous cultural movement. It isn't an organization or a club, so there's no way to police its boundaries. People can argue about what the boundaries should be and if something like what Azis Ansari did fits within the larger context or not, and they have. Almost immediately most of the discussion I saw about him was about where this fit within the discussion and almost everyone agreed that it was a different sort of accusation from others.
If being connected to metoo by itself meant some sort of clear punishment or sanction, than you might have a point. But it doesn't. Bill Cosby is in jail, Matt Lauer has basically disappeared, Louis C.K's career has gone down the tubes, at least for the moment. Aziz Ansari just had a new Netflix special. Despite "being connected to the metoo movement" he isn't generally being treated as someone who did something unforgivable.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 25, 2019, 05:22:31 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2019, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2019, 08:26:45 AM
But the very nature (and name) of the movement encourage people to "join the club" and share their experiences. The number of people having had some sort of regrettable experience is much greater than the number who have actually experienced a direct abuse of power but "meTOO" suggests that everyone should consider their experience as completely within the bounds of what is considered.
No, dude, 'meTOO' is because these direct abuses of power are more common than many would believe or be willing to admit. It's not 'Come join our club'. It's 'How could you have miss this huge honking clubhouse in the middle of your living room all this time?'
We are not trying to persuade people---mostly women---to reconsider their experiences in a new light. We are trying to persuade other people---mostly men---to recognize that our experiences are common, not exceptional.
The fact that the interpretation keeps shifting away from that is evidence that people---mostly men---are not listening.
My point is that "metoo" is used in relation to Bill Cosby AND Aziz Ansari. Suggesting these are similar examples of "women having bad experiences with men" is like saying a hurricane and a light drizzle are similar examples of "rain".
Bill Cosby drugged women and sexually assaulted them.
Aziz Ansari had a bad date.
Big difference.
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
Do you need to report it? I'd say the answer is obvious: no.
Would it be a reasonable action to report it? I suspect not.
Quote from: Effarre on September 25, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
I can't tell from your description whether the student was actually taking a class from the professor at the time the relationship began. If no, I don't think there's anything to report. I think the behavior is wrong and it would certainly make me question the person's judgement and character, but if there's no specific rule being broken, I can't see what the point of reporting would be.
If the student was actually taking a class from this person at the time the relationship began, or if they were working with them in some sort of way, that's different. Even if there's no specific rule about relationships, I'd assume that other language could be invoked about impartiality or fairness. I don't think someone who does that ought to be teaching.
Quote from: Effarre on September 25, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
At my place:
1. If it's non-consensual, I have no choice: I must report.
2. If it is consensual, in a supervisory relationship, the participants must disclose. I probably would, as a good colleague, point this requirement out to them, so that they could take appropriate steps. Depending on what they did, I might report. (My Chair probably does have the obligation to report.)
3. If there is no longer a supervisory relationship, this would very likely be treated as a "pre-existing" relationship. Direct supervision down the line would require alternate lines of reporting; otherwise, no official action would be taken. I would keep my mouth shut.
One
caveat: There's an old phrase "twice makes a custom". If I knew that the faculty behavior was habitual, and not a star-struck Juliet separated from her Romeo, I would say something. Maybe not formally, but to somebody who has the authority to intervene should it happen again.
I should note that the actual policy, including sanctions, are very new. They don't cover past transgressions, but I can imagine that, moving forward, a person in a position of authority who did
not intervene when knowing about an ongoing, supervisory, sexual relationship might get dressed down. It would be the same as turning a blind eye towards blatant discrimination, or academic dishonesty: that is, professional irresponsibility, not moral failure.
Quote from: Effarre on September 25, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
It's really worth finding out what the exact policy is for the institution. I'd be really surprised if there was none. That policy is what determines what to do. Not your colleagues opinions, nor ours.
The original description makes it sound as if the student has graduated and the faculty member has left the department. If that is the case, there is no prospective action for the department to take. Both of the actors are gone.
We do not allow relationships between any faculty/staff or students.
If there were something pre-existing, we could probably work it out, depending on what the relationship was.
Otherwise, end it, or face dismissal. In fact, you could face dismissal anyway.
Quote from: Effarre on September 25, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
For my employer, an incident of this type -- or simply second-hand information about an alleged incident of this type -- is put into the Title IX "mandatory reporting" category. Faculty are told they must adhere to the policy. So the report is made. Then the university does nothing, unless there is a very high chance of the incident generating bad publicity. Works great for anyone who is a serial sexual predator.
Quote from: Ruralguy on September 25, 2019, 12:33:54 PM
We do not allow relationships between any faculty/staff or students.
If there were something pre-existing, we could probably work it out, depending on what the relationship was.
Otherwise, end it, or face dismissal. In fact, you could face dismissal anyway.
Does your school have spouse tuition benefits?
The way I see it, these situations all raise defeasible warning flags. Whether those flags are defeated depends on the particulars of the case. So it's entirely appropriate to view such relationships with suspicion at first. We just have to revise our opinions in light of new evidence, as time goes on.
As soon as a professor and a student enter into a relationship (even if the student isn't a student of that instructor), it raises a red flag, and IMO it should be treated with suspicion. If the student isn't one of the instructor's students, that's a smaller flag that's more easily defeated. If it's a same-sex couple, it's a smaller, more easily defeated flag; if it's a lesbian couple, it's a smaller, more easily defeated flag (because of the way these things are socialized; I'm much more suspicious when it's a man in a position of power over a woman, or [but less so] a man over another man). If the instructor and the student have a pedagogical tie, but take steps to... divest?... themselves of it, then that defeats my flag, too. If the relationship seems like a healthy one, and lasts into the long term, that also defeats my flag.
But the big thing is this: has this happened before with that same instructor? Because if there's a pattern of the instructor finding romantic partners among the student body, then that's a huge red flag. And it would take an enormous effort to get me onside.
Full disclosure: my partner's closest friend is married to one of her former professors, and the relationship began when the instructor was her dissertation director. As I said above, that's a red flag for me. But they did all the right things to mitigate that flag, and it's clear to me this wasn't part of a pattern on the instructor's part. And they're both women, which I do think makes a difference. So, anyway, I don't view their relationship with suspicion any more. They put in the effort, and they've more than earned their pass.
Also: student-instructor relationships are strictly forbidden at my current institution.
If your uni, doesn't have a formal policy, that is a gray area as even if you report it, no one is breaking any policies. However, if there is a policy, then this becomes a real issue. Morals aside, it is very rare for professors to date students even though it is all over media (#metoo). I've never witnessed it in college, grad school, or work. My husband is a professor and I think some people assume I was his student since I look younger than him but we met as two consenting grad students back in the day:) With that said, today in 2019, you must be stupid to date a student. It is wrong and just stick to another dating pool (anyone who is not a college student). You could lose your job so just date others who are not students. It's that easy.
Yes, my school has spousal tuition benefits. Yes, someone brought this sort of case up with the administration when they just declared this policy. We asked them what would happen, and it was just the usual "you'd have to expect us to act reasonably." No professor in this situation has been fired for having a relationship with a student (or even gotten into any kind of trouble at all).
Quote from: Effarre on September 25, 2019, 07:06:22 AM
Thanks all...lots for me to think about.
Next for me: do I need to report this relationship that began whilst undergrad was a student and yes, was in a subordinate position to the professor...? (I am asking rhetorically, as I don't think there is one obvious answer.)
Given that this is in the past I would not report it. The student is no longer a student and I see almost no way this would end up in any action, but I do see how you could get burned. It's not like they would start some sort of investigation and at this point it is in the past and really just hearsay that they could simply deny.
If it were an ongoing thing, I likely would not report it either but depending on the specifics I may. The reality is that if you know about it, most likely others do as well...