QuoteAlabama Republicans Pass Expansive Legislation Targeting D.E.I.
The measure would not only cut funding to diversity programs at public colleges, but also limit the teaching of "divisive concepts" surrounding race and gender.
Free access the NYT article here. (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/19/us/politics/alabama-dei-bill.html?ugrp=u&unlocked_article_code=1.eE0.eJJi.o2gIE4m7nEW1&smid=url-share)
Goldwater Institute Sues Arizona State University Regents Over DEI Training https://bit.ly/4a2xF43
Quote from: treeoflife on March 20, 2024, 05:51:15 PMGoldwater Institute Sues Arizona State University Regents Over DEI Training https://bit.ly/4a2xF43
From the article:
QuoteFor example, one of the quiz questions asked if "Bias is informed by fact and not ideologies," and according to the suit, a copy of the training material identified "false" as the correct answer.
What a ridiculously stupid question. "Bias" is not "informed" by anything
if it's unconscious; if it's
conscious, it can be "informed" by fact, ideology, or any of a number of other things.
So making it a true or false question is idiotic, since either choice isn't universally and objectively correct.
The DEI community of officers and reps have some self-awareness of their problems--from the Chronicle:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/under-siege-dei-officers-strategize-to-fight-back
Here's a telling quote from the President and Chief Executive of the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education:
"We took a lot for granted. We took for granted that we were doing the right thing."
Quote from: little bongo on March 21, 2024, 06:14:50 AMThe DEI community of officers and reps have some self-awareness of their problems--from the Chronicle:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/under-siege-dei-officers-strategize-to-fight-back
Here's a telling quote from the President and Chief Executive of the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education:
"We took a lot for granted. We took for granted that we were doing the right thing."
A couple of hopeful insights:
QuoteDEI professionals should avoid slogans that confuse and obscure what they're doing. They should "avoid being language police," he said. Don't fight over whether or not it's appropriate to refer to people as Latinx. "Let's not get into battles over small stuff that prevents us from dealing with the bigger issues."
...
Critics often argue that DEI offices suppress speech by policing language that might offend members of disadvantaged groups. Several speakers suggested that advocates speak out about the importance of free speech, and of listening to people with opposing viewpoints, even if they make you uncomfortable.
"Diversity also means diversity of ideas and perspectives," said George A. Pruitt, president emeritus of Thomas Edison State University, in Trenton, N.J. While threats from the right get the most attention, he said, diversity efforts are also set back, he believes, "by students shouting down speakers they don't agree with, cancel culture, and attempts to shield students from speech and ideas that trigger them or make them feel uncomfortable."
Maybe there's hope after all.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 21, 2024, 06:55:34 AMQuote from: little bongo on March 21, 2024, 06:14:50 AMThe DEI community of officers and reps have some self-awareness of their problems--from the Chronicle:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/under-siege-dei-officers-strategize-to-fight-back
Here's a telling quote from the President and Chief Executive of the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education:
"We took a lot for granted. We took for granted that we were doing the right thing."
A couple of hopeful insights:
QuoteDEI professionals should avoid slogans that confuse and obscure what they're doing. They should "avoid being language police," he said. Don't fight over whether or not it's appropriate to refer to people as Latinx. "Let's not get into battles over small stuff that prevents us from dealing with the bigger issues."
...
Critics often argue that DEI offices suppress speech by policing language that might offend members of disadvantaged groups. Several speakers suggested that advocates speak out about the importance of free speech, and of listening to people with opposing viewpoints, even if they make you uncomfortable.
"Diversity also means diversity of ideas and perspectives," said George A. Pruitt, president emeritus of Thomas Edison State University, in Trenton, N.J. While threats from the right get the most attention, he said, diversity efforts are also set back, he believes, "by students shouting down speakers they don't agree with, cancel culture, and attempts to shield students from speech and ideas that trigger them or make them feel uncomfortable."
Maybe there's hope after all.
My colleague got called on the carpet for referring to a generic class as "Underwater Basket Weaving" because it was offensive to cultures for whom baskets are very important.
She cried in front of the entire curriculum committee and guests in her apology.
These insights all sound like common sense. It's not like they haven't been warned repeatedly that not paying attention to such common-sense considerations could prove counterproductive. DEI advocates have really set their cause back badly and provoked largely avoidable backlashes by not heeding those warnings. This is the sort of thing that happens when policies are made in hermetically-sealed academic and ideological bubbles.
Hopefully with more of this sort of revised thinking and reflection they can make some actual progress toward some of their goals in the future, without provoking a bunch of needless antagonism. It's going to be an uphill struggle to win back many academics and members of the general public who've already come to have strongly negative ideas of DEI.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 22, 2024, 06:44:27 AMMy colleague got called on the carpet for referring to a generic class as "Underwater Basket Weaving" because it was offensive to cultures for whom baskets are very important.
She cried in front of the entire curriculum committee and guests in her apology.
That's insane. Probably virtually
every culture uses baskets of some sort, but I don't know of any that weave them
underwater.
I think that (Ciao's remark) was a joke. Society and academia would be in even sadder shape than I thought if it was not.
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 22, 2024, 09:41:25 AMI think that (Ciao's remark) was a joke. Society and academia would be in even sadder shape than I thought if it was not.
These days reality and parody are pretty hard to distinguish. See this thread (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=3770.0).
I've always thought that the use of "basketweaving" as a standard shorthand for "course name I want to redact so I don't get outed" was part of The Fora's charm.
I recall somebody speaking of a search for a tenure-track basketweaver that got a promising application from somebody who could also teach chair-caning, and unwelcome applications from a bunch of felt-makers.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 22, 2024, 08:35:29 AMQuote from: ciao_yall on March 22, 2024, 06:44:27 AMMy colleague got called on the carpet for referring to a generic class as "Underwater Basket Weaving" because it was offensive to cultures for whom baskets are very important.
She cried in front of the entire curriculum committee and guests in her apology.
That's insane. Probably virtually every culture uses baskets of some sort, but I don't know of any that weave them underwater.
I always assumed that the person was not under water weaving a basket in say, full scuba gear, but rather that the basket and the reeds were underwater in a trough or something so that they would bend easier and not break.
mm
Quote from: methodsman on March 22, 2024, 10:49:08 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on March 22, 2024, 08:35:29 AMQuote from: ciao_yall on March 22, 2024, 06:44:27 AMMy colleague got called on the carpet for referring to a generic class as "Underwater Basket Weaving" because it was offensive to cultures for whom baskets are very important.
She cried in front of the entire curriculum committee and guests in her apology.
That's insane. Probably virtually every culture uses baskets of some sort, but I don't know of any that weave them underwater.
I always assumed that the person was not under water weaving a basket in say, full scuba gear, but rather that the basket and the reeds were underwater in a trough or something so that they would bend easier and not break.
mm
I pictured something more like pearl divers, who can hold their breath for insanely long periods, calmly sitting on the seabed weaving.
I too hope that ciao_yall's comment was a joke as it would be a sad day for all of us if women professors were reduced to public shaming and humiliation in front of a committee and guests. Guests!!! Women professionals having to cry in public to show their contrition for an unintended error suggests that academia is now a very toxic work environment. Why wasn't the professor asked to change the name via email? Why force her to grovel and cry in front of colleagues and guests?
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 22, 2024, 02:13:56 PMI too hope that ciao_yall's comment was a joke as it would be a sad day for all of us if women professors were reduced to public shaming and humiliation in front of a committee and guests. Guests!!! Women professionals having to cry in public to show their contrition for an unintended error suggests that academia is now a very toxic work environment. Why wasn't the professor asked to change the name via email? Why force her to grovel and cry in front of colleagues and guests?
Sadly enough, it was a true story. And yes, it was a pretty toxic environment. She was a bit of a toxic person herself, though. She was Chair, and I was Vice Chair. She chewed me out one day when I reviewed a class for our culinary department on Wedding Cakes and it wasn't crystal clear that the SLO on "costing cakes" wasn't covered under "production of wedding cakes."
I was reminded of the story when I recently ran into a salt-of-the-earth colleague who was at that meeting to discuss his new motorcycle repair class and he was still traumatized by the sight of a grown woman weeping at the start. He was worried about how the committee would treat his poor class.
Quote from: apl68 on March 22, 2024, 07:43:13 AMThese insights all sound like common sense. It's not like they haven't been warned repeatedly that not paying attention to such common-sense considerations could prove counterproductive. DEI advocates have really set their cause back badly and provoked largely avoidable backlashes by not heeding those warnings. This is the sort of thing that happens when policies are made in hermetically-sealed academic and ideological bubbles.
Hopefully with more of this sort of revised thinking and reflection they can make some actual progress toward some of their goals in the future, without provoking a bunch of needless antagonism. It's going to be an uphill struggle to win back many academics and members of the general public who've already come to have strongly negative ideas of DEI.
+1
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 21, 2024, 06:55:34 AMQuote from: little bongo on March 21, 2024, 06:14:50 AMThe DEI community of officers and reps have some self-awareness of their problems--from the Chronicle:
https://www.chronicle.com/article/under-siege-dei-officers-strategize-to-fight-back
Here's a telling quote from the President and Chief Executive of the National Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education:
"We took a lot for granted. We took for granted that we were doing the right thing."
A couple of hopeful insights:
QuoteDEI professionals should avoid slogans that confuse and obscure what they're doing. They should "avoid being language police," he said. Don't fight over whether or not it's appropriate to refer to people as Latinx. "Let's not get into battles over small stuff that prevents us from dealing with the bigger issues."
...
Critics often argue that DEI offices suppress speech by policing language that might offend members of disadvantaged groups. Several speakers suggested that advocates speak out about the importance of free speech, and of listening to people with opposing viewpoints, even if they make you uncomfortable.
"Diversity also means diversity of ideas and perspectives," said George A. Pruitt, president emeritus of Thomas Edison State University, in Trenton, N.J. While threats from the right get the most attention, he said, diversity efforts are also set back, he believes, "by students shouting down speakers they don't agree with, cancel culture, and attempts to shield students from speech and ideas that trigger them or make them feel uncomfortable."
Maybe there's hope after all.
+1
---Disagree but don't shout down.
---Focus on what really hurts people and use existing laws to combat this; if it does not fall under the law, use your Freedom of Speech to combat it.
---Let the bigots be bigots (freedom of thought, Freedom of Speech) but do not allow them to set policy.
---Quit trying for the "got'cha" moment on silly crap. If you are brave enough to call out a colleague on a "micro-aggression," take your bad-assed-ness to a Trump rally and call'em out there.
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 22, 2024, 09:41:25 AMI think that (Ciao's remark) was a joke. Society and academia would be in even sadder shape than I thought if it was not.
These days reality and parody are pretty hard to distinguish. See this thread (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=3770.0).
[/quote]
I would not be the least surprised if ciao was posting literally about a real event.
On edit: I see that she was. As with so many things in academia right now, this should not be surprising.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 22, 2024, 06:44:27 AM...
My colleague got called on the carpet for referring to a generic class as "Underwater Basket Weaving" because it was offensive to cultures for whom baskets are very important.
She cried in front of the entire curriculum committee and guests in her apology.
Don't think such is offensive to anybody, 'cause nobody does it underwater [as far as I know].
Now, basket weaving
an sich is a serious matter. Look at this Austrian village ensemble tooting horns and showing baskets:
Baskets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V49rGSvrpRA)
The women leading the files are carrying baskets! Those on the right of the viewer are carrying
closed baskets. Can't make out what they are. Wish I knew. Maybe
schnapps.
Nevertheless, it could be we have a cultural basket crisis on our hands, certainly an Austrian basket crisis.
I give you all the real (non credit) Underwater Basket Weaving Course (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icjy5vc9s1A) at Rutgers
Quote from: mythbuster on March 25, 2024, 01:11:36 PMI give you all the real (non credit) Underwater Basket Weaving Course (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icjy5vc9s1A) at Rutgers
And a new college major is born!!
QuoteAfter DEI Ban, UT-Austin Eliminates a Division and Lays Off Its Former Diversity Staff (https://www.chronicle.com/article/after-dei-ban-ut-austin-eliminates-a-division-and-fires-its-former-diversity-staff)
QuoteWith State Bans on D.E.I., Some Universities Find a Workaround (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/us/diversity-ban-dei-college.html): Rebranding
Welcome to the new "Office of Access and Engagement." Schools are renaming departments and job titles to try to preserve diversity programs.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 14, 2024, 12:39:27 PMQuoteWith State Bans on D.E.I., Some Universities Find a Workaround (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/us/diversity-ban-dei-college.html): Rebranding
Welcome to the new "Office of Access and Engagement." Schools are renaming departments and job titles to try to preserve diversity programs.
This was to be expected, of course. It's called gaming the system. But legislatures can play, too. It will lead to further reduction in State financial support in some places.
If they're subtle about it, and have the sense to drop the more egregious sorts of jargon and activities that spur most of the backlash, some of the schools can probably preserve their most important DEI efforts.
Quote from: apl68 on April 15, 2024, 07:44:02 AMIf they're subtle about it, and have the sense to drop the more egregious sorts of jargon and activities that spur most of the backlash, some of the schools can probably preserve their most important DEI efforts.
Agreed, once the anti racist jargon is off the table it is far less egregious.
IHE: Tennessee Triples Down on Targeting 'Divisive Concepts' (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/quick-takes/2024/04/15/tennessee-triples-down-targeting-divisive-concepts)
QuoteRepublican lawmakers in multiple states have listed and taken aim at certain theories or beliefs that they often associate with pushes for diversity, equity and inclusion.
Tennessee was among the first to act. In 2022, its Republican-controlled General Assembly passed a law saying public college and university students and employees couldn't be penalized if they didn't endorse certain "divisive concepts." These included the idea that meritocracy is inherently racist and the notion that "the rule of law does not exist, but instead is a series of power relationships and struggles among racial or other groups."
Ontario university seeks math professor who self-IDs as woman or gender minority (https://canoe.com/news/provincial/ontario-university-seeks-math-professor-who-self-ids-as-woman-or-gender-minority/wcm/7a03b8cb-4f1c-4121-a6f0-75791371824a)
QuoteAside from being an "exceptional scholar and researcher," the tenure track position, ranked as an assistant professor, is looking for candidates with a PhD or equivalent in pure mathematics or a related discipline.
"To address legal requirements for supporting underrepresented groups in the CRC program, eligible candidates for this search are required to identify as a woman or gender minority, which is defined to include individuals who self-identify as women, transgender, gender-fluid, nonbinary and Two-Spirit people."
I think we're lumping together a lot of similar, but not necessarily directly related, concepts.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 15, 2024, 12:39:50 PMOntario university seeks math professor who self-IDs as woman or gender minority (https://canoe.com/news/provincial/ontario-university-seeks-math-professor-who-self-ids-as-woman-or-gender-minority/wcm/7a03b8cb-4f1c-4121-a6f0-75791371824a)
QuoteAside from being an "exceptional scholar and researcher," the tenure track position, ranked as an assistant professor, is looking for candidates with a PhD or equivalent in pure mathematics or a related discipline.
"To address legal requirements for supporting underrepresented groups in the CRC program, eligible candidates for this search are required to identify as a woman or gender minority, which is defined to include individuals who self-identify as women, transgender, gender-fluid, nonbinary and Two-Spirit people."
The discussion of DEI, and here Canadian CDC, reminds me of a line in the movie
Miss Congeniality [2000] where Sandra Bullock and Candice Bergen argue over whether the Pageant at the heart of the movie is a Beauty Pageant or a Scholarship Program. Is DEI a Reeducation Program or a Jobs Program? Outside a few States, it's a jobs program and, as such, can't fail!
Quote from: dismalist on April 15, 2024, 01:18:16 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 15, 2024, 12:39:50 PMOntario university seeks math professor who self-IDs as woman or gender minority (https://canoe.com/news/provincial/ontario-university-seeks-math-professor-who-self-ids-as-woman-or-gender-minority/wcm/7a03b8cb-4f1c-4121-a6f0-75791371824a)
QuoteAside from being an "exceptional scholar and researcher," the tenure track position, ranked as an assistant professor, is looking for candidates with a PhD or equivalent in pure mathematics or a related discipline.
"To address legal requirements for supporting underrepresented groups in the CRC program, eligible candidates for this search are required to identify as a woman or gender minority, which is defined to include individuals who self-identify as women, transgender, gender-fluid, nonbinary and Two-Spirit people."
The discussion of DEI, and here Canadian CDC, reminds me of a line in the movie Miss Congeniality [2000] where Sandra Bullock and Candice Bergen argue over whether the Pageant at the heart of the movie is a Beauty Pageant or a Scholarship Program. Is DEI a Reeducation Program or a Jobs Program? Outside a few States, it's a jobs program and, as such, can't fail!
What fascinates me is that there are
so many candidates in any field who qualify as "
exceptional scholar and researcher" that arbitrary other criteria can be added without emptying the pool. (It's good that includes those who "self-identify as women", because otherwise it seems like the pool would be
mighty small in anything other than Gender Studies or something similar.)
The Atlantic: Abolish DEI Statements (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/dei-statements-hiring-practice/678098/)
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 19, 2024, 07:54:34 AMThe Atlantic: Abolish DEI Statements (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/dei-statements-hiring-practice/678098/)
Here it gets at the problem with "activism" in the context of DEI:
QuoteIn Kennedy's case against DEI statements, he provides an example: a job opening for an assistant professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, where applicants are required to submit a statement of teaching philosophy that includes "a description of their 'orientation toward diversity, equity, and inclusion practices.'"
Notice what is implied: that there is a set of known DEI practices professors can deploy to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion, if they possess the desire to do so. In reality, however, there are robust scholarly debates about how best to advance or even define diversity, equity, and inclusion, let alone a bundle of all three values. One cannot reliably distinguish among applicants by their "orientation to DEI practices" without advantaging one side in such debates, infringing on academic freedom and contributing to an ideological monoculture.
IHE: Iowa Lawmakers Pass Last-Minute Ban on DEI, Institutional Statements (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/diversity/2024/04/26/iowa-gop-oks-11th-hour-ban-dei-institutional-statements)
Published Feb of 2023:
IHE: DEI and the Necessity of Self-Defense (https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2024/02/29/dei-and-necessity-self-defense-opinion)
QuoteAs Lily Zheng has noted, a fictional conceptualization of DEI drives much of the anti-DEI animus that higher ed is currently experiencing. As educators, we must use our pedagogical skills to emphasize that DEI work isn't about policing thought, discriminating against white folk and men, giving jobs to unqualified candidates based on their identities instead of their aptitude, or taking away anyone's privilege.
Rather, DEI activities are designed to address and dismantle structures and systems that perpetuate universal harm. At their core, DEI efforts are aspirations toward and actualizations of the platinum rule ("Do unto others as they would like done to them"). This expression of compassionate human decency is something that—it would seem—all people should aspire to, regardless of their personal political affiliation.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 28, 2024, 05:23:37 PMPublished Feb of 2023:
IHE: DEI and the Necessity of Self-Defense (https://www.insidehighered.com/opinion/views/2024/02/29/dei-and-necessity-self-defense-opinion)
QuoteAs Lily Zheng has noted, a fictional conceptualization of DEI drives much of the anti-DEI animus that higher ed is currently experiencing. As educators, we must use our pedagogical skills to emphasize that DEI work isn't about policing thought, discriminating against white folk and men, giving jobs to unqualified candidates based on their identities instead of their aptitude, or taking away anyone's privilege.
Rather, DEI activities are designed to address and dismantle structures and systems that perpetuate universal harm. At their core, DEI efforts are aspirations toward and actualizations of the platinum rule ("Do unto others as they would like done to them"). This expression of compassionate human decency is something that—it would seem—all people should aspire to, regardless of their personal political affiliation.
I think they said the quiet part out loud.
"Do unto others as
they would like done to them"???? Who wouldn't love to be given a million dollars and a villa on a tropical island? (Fill in your own fantasies here.)
Sorry, it's impossible for everyone to be given everything they want, especially since humans are never satisfied, so the expectations will get more outrageous as time goes on.
Treat people the way they want to be treated? Outrageous!
I don't think you quite understand what that phrase means, Marshy.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 12:51:02 PMI don't think you quite understand what that phrase means, Marshy.
Why do you say that? The point is that how anyone
wants to be treated flies in the face of a society that strives to treat people
fairly. In the latter case, if everyone is treated the same, then that effectively means doling out available resources equally. But in the former, if everyone (or every "group") gets to decide what they
feel they deserve, that makes no reference to whether that is compatible with the available resources in the context of what
everyone else feels they themselves deserve.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2024, 02:15:58 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 12:51:02 PMI don't think you quite understand what that phrase means, Marshy.
Why do you say that? The point is that how anyone wants to be treated flies in the face of a society that strives to treat people fairly. In the latter case, if everyone is treated the same, then that effectively means doling out available resources equally. But in the former, if everyone (or every "group") gets to decide what they feel they deserve, that makes no reference to whether that is compatible with the available resources in the context of what everyone else feels they themselves deserve.
It's Kant's categorical imperative simplified.
All it says is treat other people the same way you would want to be treated.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 02:40:49 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2024, 02:15:58 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 12:51:02 PMI don't think you quite understand what that phrase means, Marshy.
Why do you say that? The point is that how anyone wants to be treated flies in the face of a society that strives to treat people fairly. In the latter case, if everyone is treated the same, then that effectively means doling out available resources equally. But in the former, if everyone (or every "group") gets to decide what they feel they deserve, that makes no reference to whether that is compatible with the available resources in the context of what everyone else feels they themselves deserve.
It's Kant's categorical imperative simplified.
All it says is treat other people the same way you would want to be treated.
No, that's
not what it says.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 28, 2024, 05:23:37 PMQuoteAt their core, DEI efforts are aspirations toward and actualizations of the platinum rule ("Do unto others as they would like done to them").
"Treat others as
you would like to be treated" is entirely different than "Treat others as
they would like to be treated."
I heartily agree with the former; the latter is a hole with no bottom.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 30, 2024, 04:45:46 AMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 02:40:49 PMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2024, 02:15:58 PMQuote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2024, 12:51:02 PMI don't think you quite understand what that phrase means, Marshy.
Why do you say that? The point is that how anyone wants to be treated flies in the face of a society that strives to treat people fairly. In the latter case, if everyone is treated the same, then that effectively means doling out available resources equally. But in the former, if everyone (or every "group") gets to decide what they feel they deserve, that makes no reference to whether that is compatible with the available resources in the context of what everyone else feels they themselves deserve.
It's Kant's categorical imperative simplified.
All it says is treat other people the same way you would want to be treated.
No, that's not what it says.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 28, 2024, 05:23:37 PMQuoteAt their core, DEI efforts are aspirations toward and actualizations of the platinum rule ("Do unto others as they would like done to them").
"Treat others as you would like to be treated" is entirely different than "Treat others as they would like to be treated."
I heartily agree with the former; the latter is a hole with no bottom.
I think you're willfully misunderstanding that quote. And I know your impulse is to respond with "here's what it literally means" and continue spinning in circles. But if you really attribute unfairness, narcissism, and/or maliciousness to the idea that people are asking to be seen as a certain way, I'm not sure anyone on these fora (or elsewhere) can help you understand.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 30, 2024, 05:50:54 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on April 30, 2024, 04:45:46 AM"Treat others as you would like to be treated" is entirely different than "Treat others as they would like to be treated."
I heartily agree with the former; the latter is a hole with no bottom.
I think you're willfully misunderstanding that quote. And I know your impulse is to respond with "here's what it literally means" and continue spinning in circles. But if you really attribute unfairness, narcissism, and/or maliciousness to the idea that people are asking to be seen as a certain way, I'm not sure anyone on these fora (or elsewhere) can help you understand.
Narcissicm would be the closest. As I said above, the resources available are finite. How everyone can be treated is limited by the total resources available. (It's a "tragedy of the commons" problem.)
Consider the issue of pronouns. Pronouns, aside from making speech more fluid, essentially reduce the cognitive load of constantly referring to everyone by name, since one pronoun can be used for many different people. However, if people are allowed to
make up their own pronouns, then in principle every person could make up their own
unique pronoun. In that case, rather than decreasing cognitive load, remembering the names and pronouns for each individual would
increase cognitive load beyond that required to simply remember names. If everyone chooses their own pronouns, there's no point to using them instead of names.
Here's another example: Suppose the required enrollment for a course is 25 for economic reasons. Below that, it can't afford to run. Say there are 20 men and 10 women in the course. 30 people , being above the threshold, allows the course to run. However, if for some reason women in the course felt that they needed a separate section of the course, then that would require breaking in into two sections, one with 10 students and one with 20 students.
Both of those would be below the threshold, so
neither could run. The finite resources prevent people getting what they would like to have.
In countries with universal healthcare, the societal agreement is that it is more important that services can be available to all, than that they be limited according to individual ability to pay. This is the principle I am defending; fairness is about accommodating peoples' wishes to the extent that
everyone can be similarly accommodated.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 30, 2024, 04:45:46 AM...
"Treat others as you would like to be treated" is entirely different than "Treat others as they would like to be treated."
I heartily agree with the former; the latter is a hole with no bottom.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."