The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Quote from: apl68 on September 21, 2023, 09:32:18 AM

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AMAt least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.

Well, cutting philosophy and their performing arts and languages majors was only to be expected in today's climate.  Surprised to see so much STEM gone as well--although if you're trying to save money, that's where you'll save the most.  Surprised they're not cutting English and history, but wouldn't be too surprised if that's perhaps because they're already gone.

Some STEM programs at lower-tier universities, like Chemistry at a place like SUNY Potsdam, get cut because of low student enrollments, because most students at the lower-tier universities simply are not up to the task of succeeding in a real Chemistry program. Our Chemistry and Physics programs are definitely losing students to the "easier" degree programs, which shall go un-named, but you know which ones they are. Chemistry faculty at more research-focused universities can keep their positions justified with grantsmanship, but Physics and Chemistry faculty at more teaching-focused universities depend on large numbers of students with STEM aptitude & preparation. And in some regions, there simply are not enough of those students. Chemistry faculty at more teaching-focused universities can save their tail by being part of programs that are pipeline programs for nursing programs and pre-med programs.

When examining a single institution's fate, it's always difficult to untangle causes that are general from causes that are unique to the institution. And one cause can always be bad luck.

SUNY Potsdam is located in a town with three other universities. One of them, Clarkson U, offers plenty of engineering and science. It receives funding form NY State allowing it to be a good value for tuition. With a trend decline in college age people, some place must shrink or close.

Potsdam's enrollments are down 40% over the last twelve years.

As for philosophy in particular, that was one of the programs which accreditors singled out last year as being the target of baseless cuts.

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 12:46:44 PMPotsdam's enrollments are down 40% over the last twelve years.

As for philosophy in particular, that was one of the programs which accreditors singled out last year as being the target of baseless cuts.

I have long been skeptical about the quality of decision making in determining what to cut. Everything seems to be framed in numbers of majors, as at Potsdam and at WVU. That's a fairly irrelevant number, though not completely. The correct questions are

a) What's you're revenue?
b) What's you're cost?

a must be bigger than b to contribute to overhead. I doubt this was calculated anywhere.

To its credit the philosophy dept almost makes this point

Philosophy

but not explicitly in $. [It goes on to blame lack of funds for lack of majors, but they can be forgiven. Everybody does that.]

Whatever the demerits of the philosophy department's arguments, the university's are worse.

If only somebody hired me to cut an institution down to size, 'ya know like Cap the Knife Dismalist! :-)

What's systemic is a 40% drop in enrollments over 12 years and nobody lifts a finger! Incentives are badly misaligned in higher ed upper admin.

Quote from: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 01:18:22 PMI have long been skeptical about the quality of decision making in determining what to cut. Everything seems to be framed in numbers of majors, as at Potsdam and at WVU. That's a fairly irrelevant number, though not completely. The correct questions are

a) What's you're revenue?
b) What's you're cost?

a must be bigger than b to contribute to overhead.

We don't often agree, but on this, I do. Majors are a strange number to care about--or, at least, to care about to the exclusion of everything else (such as minors or even just service courses for other departments, and that's not even getting into the weird way double majors get counted/not).

It seems to me that as long as you've got enough going on at the foundational level, then it's well worth your while to have a major, even if you only get a handful of students a year, because you've already got most of the rest of the infrastructure in place and because it's important for the university's ability to advertise to and retain students that they be able to walk away with degrees in their chosen subjects.

Here, for example, we offer everything you'd need for a major except 400-level courses (they're on the books but never offered out of fear of cancellation, since they won't enroll 27+). And yet we offer no major, minor, or even an associate's or certificate. The entire university offers something like five majors. And so we enroll huge numbers for the first two years, and then lose them all to transfers to the other universities in the city. It's not hard to figure out why, since it's not like we're bleeding music, psych, animation, or business students... all of which offer majors and minors. Plus, having defined pathways, especially for minors, builds some resilience into your enrollments.

Thanks for the link to the SUNY Potsdam Philosophy Dept's analysis. I agree that they do a good job providing a quantitative assessment of their high operational performance relative to other departments. Their rationale for low majors is sound (students want to take philosophy courses, but have already decidied on another major when they enrol because a philosphy major wasn't on their radar in high school.)

The Achilles Heel of the arguments is that the department is down to two faculty. That is a problem that colleges in dire financial straits will run in to with faculty attrition. I don't think a department of two is a big enough administrative unit.

The optimal department size, operationally and collegially, seems to be between 20 and 30. Through attrition and mergers, my "department" has ranged from 11 to 80 over the course of my career. It definitely worked best at 20-30.

I could see Potsdam's two philosphy professors continuing to offer excellent philosophy courses as part of a bigger humanities department that has a lot of majors and is run effectively with a resonable ans satisfying service load for faculty. That kind of vigor attracts and retains students, which can look like a path out of dire financial straits.

Careful, careful!

Assuming the Philosophy Dept, or any other Dept, makes some contribution to fixed cost, it should live.

What bothers me most is that administrative costs are hardly ever mentioned [much] as candidates to effect savings at schools that are in financial trouble. Yet that's where cost increases have been overwhelming in the last 40 years or so.

Imagine running a restaurant that's in trouble and firing the cooks and the waiters and waitresses, so that the bookkeepers can prosper!

In terms of Chemistry, maintaining the major is pricey because Chemistry actually has a certification program through ACS. ACS Approval Program

This dictates the rigor and requirements for a Chem major. Its something that grad programs look for, so students with degrees from nonapproved Chem majors are at a huge disadvantage for their career.

Given this, I can see the decision being made that our students can't handle it and lets just focus on the pre-med required courses, rather than keeping a full time physical chemist etc.

Quote from: Hibush on September 21, 2023, 05:12:32 PMThanks for the link to the SUNY Potsdam Philosophy Dept's analysis. I agree that they do a good job providing a quantitative assessment of their high operational performance relative to other departments. Their rationale for low majors is sound (students want to take philosophy courses, but have already decidied on another major when they enrol because a philosphy major wasn't on their radar in high school.)

The Achilles Heel of the arguments is that the department is down to two faculty. That is a problem that colleges in dire financial straits will run in to with faculty attrition. I don't think a department of two is a big enough administrative unit.

It's not impossible.  Alma Mater's modern languages department was down to two when my mother hired on--she taught Spanish, and the department head taught French.  In the years that followed, they grew into a department offering multiple languages.  But that was in a different era with respect to interest in languages and the liberal arts in general, and the demographic realities were different.

Quote from: dismalist on September 21, 2023, 07:00:43 PMCareful, careful!

Assuming the Philosophy Dept, or any other Dept, makes some contribution to fixed cost, it should live.

What bothers me most is that administrative costs are hardly ever mentioned [much] as candidates to effect savings at schools that are in financial trouble. Yet that's where cost increases have been overwhelming in the last 40 years or so.

Imagine running a restaurant that's in trouble and firing the cooks and the waiters and waitresses, so that the bookkeepers can prosper!

Well, where I was for decades they ALWAYS claimed they were cutting administrative costs, but virtually never actually did. It was always "re-imagined" as something else, and then increased later.

They recently increased administrator pay by "aligning" position titles with the flagship. For all those decades being a more productive faculty member (think grants and pubs) that flagship counterparts meant nothing.

Its not impossible to have a department of two, or even of 1. You an arbitrarily set these things to any number you'd like. The problem that arises with 2 or 1 is that you are ostensibly paying someone (and I realize this is not true everywhere) to manage that department or unit. Managing yourself is obviously just "doing your job." Managing two is just talking to Sue at the coffeepot and seeing if Sue wants to meet at 2 or 3. Then you're more or less done. Or just email Sue with everything. So, breaking down small departments (and classes) is a matter of efficiency, realizing that you might have to make exceptions.

All remaining Art Institutes have closed.

Quote from: spork on September 25, 2023, 03:26:23 PMAll remaining Art Institutes have closed.

NYT: Sudden Closure of Art Institutes Leaves 1,700 Students Adrift

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 21, 2023, 09:21:13 AMAt least one of the ACU faculty members apparently got their visa in July, and had their position cut in September.

Other news: SUNY Potsdam is planning to cut 14 degree programs, and some unknown number of faculty positions. The programs are:

• Art history (BA)
• Arts management (BA)
• Biochemistry (MS)
• Chemistry (BA and BS)
• Dance (BA)
• French (BA)
• Music performance (MM)
• Philosophy (BA)
• Physics (BA)
• Public health (BS and MS)
• Spanish (BA)
• Theater (BA)

Some of these cuts were apparently planned in 2022, then reversed because of accreditation issues (due in part to absence of evidence). That they're returning to them after that is... interesting.

Sad when departments cut their languages, especially Spanish. The time is coming in this country when monolingualism in the public sector won't fly, à la how Canada works.

Not much to say on Potsdam which hasn't already been said. Had many friends attend there.

Came to mention a merger I found today...PA College of Health Sciences is merging with St. Joe's University. They say it was announced last January to be effective this coming January, but I don't recall seeing anything prior to the Middle States notification from Monday.