The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Cost is not a public good. Cost is cost.

The homeless encampment is a negative externality problem, not a public goods problem. Who owns the park, the homeless or the non-homeless? If the homeless own the park, the non-homeless could pay the homeless to leave. If the non-homeless own the park they, they could be bribed by the homeless to leave. This last will not happen, so just build a fence if the non-homeless own the park. 

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it¹ OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

¹ Individual human misery be damned.

There is a middle ground, capacity constraints. Take a classroom. It's a public good until it is full. Then it becomes a private good. So, the market can handle this as you can exclude.

Benefits the individual more than the group? I don't follow.

Health system as a public good? No. I can't consume your health! But again, the public health system is producing a public good. Your innoculation protects me.

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it¹ OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

¹ Individual human misery be damned.

If someone personally benefits from something, such as the education that brings them a salary, that doesn't necessarily make it a private good.

Food is generally considered a private good. I eat it, I benefit. Everyone else kind of benefits because I'm not quite so cranky but... hey. Kind of a stretch to call it a public good.

Education brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

Dismalist says: "Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods."¹

But...

Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AMEducation brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

This conversation was kicked off by the discussion about nursing programs not providing enough nurses for the need.  The question is whether providing nursing education programs in a world with a severe shortage of nurses is a public good (and hence, appropriate for governments to do).

It seems there is a middle ground of things that are/can be both public and/or private goods.  What do/should we do in those cases?

¹  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.

Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AM

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 11:02:09 AMIs this discussion binary?  Are the only choices -1)  Private good: let the market handle it¹ OR  2) Public Good - Government's job?

Is there a middle ground where its neither/both?  The market won't provide it b/c the ROI isn't there, but the Gov't isn't the right place because it benefits the individual more than the group.

Nursing JOBS might be private goods, but a quality health care system seems more like a public good.

What am I missing?

¹ Individual human misery be damned.

If someone personally benefits from something, such as the education that brings them a salary, that doesn't necessarily make it a private good.

Food is generally considered a private good. I eat it, I benefit. Everyone else kind of benefits because I'm not quite so cranky but... hey. Kind of a stretch to call it a public good.

Education brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

That's way too broad! Better education makes you more productive, and you collect the extra product attributed to you as a wage. Which is why we have loans to pay for education. You also make others more productive,  which they collect as a wage. Nothing public about this. Extra taxes are part of extra product. No double counting, please. :-)

Saving lives and designing bridges gets paid for equal to their extra value, here largely by government. That makes them publicly funded, not public.

Public infrastructure is a public good insofar as it is unlimited access. A toll road is not a public good.

The big class of publicness is basic research. Private enterprise can't exclude, so it's done in universities and largely funded by government.

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:15:51 PMThat's way too broad!

You keep saying that.  How about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:12:52 PMDismalist says: "Nursing does not provide a public good. The service a nurse provides me cannot be consumed by my neighbor. All of medicine -- except public health [note the name] provides strictly private goods."¹

But...

Quote from: ciao_yall on March 05, 2024, 11:42:14 AMEducation brings personal benefits, but it also brings overall societal benefits that are beyond the immediate benefits to the recipient. That person can work to produce at a higher level for the overall economy, contribute to taxes for the greater good, provide services such as saving lives and designing bridges that make us all more productive. That's why it is a public good. Ditto health care, public infrastructure, etc.

This conversation was kicked off by the discussion about nursing programs not providing enough nurses for the need.  The question is whether providing nursing education programs in a world with a severe shortage of nurses is a public good (and hence, appropriate for governments to do).

It seems there is a middle ground of things that are/can be both public and/or private goods.  What do/should we do in those cases?

¹  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.

It's not just the name. A nurse who splints my broken arm is helping me and only me. A nurse who gives you a shot of flu vaccine is helping you and me.

As far as the education is concerned nurses to be can and do borrow to go into health care. Public health is taken care of by government because we have too little incentive to do it ourselves.

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:20:35 PM

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:15:51 PMThat's way too broad!

You keep saying that.  How about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?

A public good is one for which you and I can consume it without diminishing the other's ability to consume it. If I consume an apple you can't consume it, so the apple is private. The 101st Airborne Div protects you and me, and I don't reduce the protection it affords you, so its public.

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PM

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 12:12:52 PM¹  Is it just the name? FishProfU has a program in "Public Health Nursing" which only differs from the standard Nursing major in that you get your RN AND a BS in Public Health.

It's not just the name. A nurse who splints my broken arm is helping me and only me. A nurse who gives you a shot of flu vaccine is helping you and me.

You seem to be equivocating here.  This can be the same nurse.  Is this nursing a public or private good?

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PMAs far as the education is concerned nurses to be can and do borrow to go into health care. Public health is taken care of by government because we have too little incentive to do it ourselves.

You seem to be equivocating here as well.  You talk about the individual nurse and then pivot to the public healthcare system.  Is this nursing training a public or private good? 

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:21:59 PMHow about a clear definition of public vs. private goods so we don't talk past one another?

A public good is one for which you and I can consume it without diminishing the other's ability to consume it. If I consume an apple you can't consume it, so the apple is private. The 101st Airborne Div protects you and me, and I don't reduce the protection it affords you, so its public.
[/quote]

You have an example of a good (apple) contrasted with a service (protection).  That doesn't seem to be an apples to apples comparison (pun intended).

Again I ask, is there any middle ground (as I think nursing may be) or is it binary?

I don't equivocate. :-)

It's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

Nurse training is always private because the nurse receives the extra cash due to her higher productivity. What the nurse does is what determines whether a public or private good is produced. The public good production is financed by the government.

To an economist, a good is a service is a good is a service! :-) The distinction doesn't matter here.

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.

I really mean an equivocation fallacy where the meaning of a term shifts in the middle of the argument.

Can you elaborate on 'capacity constrained'?

Quote from: FishProf on March 05, 2024, 02:04:10 PM

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMI don't equivocate. :-)

As I said, there's a middle ground, where the good or service production is capacity constrained. But the market can handle that.

I really mean an equivocation fallacy where the meaning of a term shifts in the middle of the argument.

Can you elaborate on 'capacity constrained'?

As I said, I don't equivocate.

Capacity constrained? Sure. [These are called "club goods", by the way.]

Take a swimming pool. If one person swims in it, and I come into it, and I don't get into the first person's way, we have a public good until capacity is reached. Then it becomes a private good. The market can efficiently provide the right number of swimming pools if we can exclude. Charge admission to finance the swimming pool.

To stick with this example, the case of the pure public good would be a swimming pool of infinite size -- never congested even for the whole world. That's a reason not to expect too many pure public goods. But club goods are ubiquitous.

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMIt's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

I'm curious about how vaccines are a public good. Most of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

What conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?
 

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PM

Quote from: dismalist on March 05, 2024, 12:47:19 PMIt's not the nurse that' of interest, it's what she's producing. She could treat my arm one hour, producing a private good, and give vaccines the next hour, producing a public good.

I'm curious about how vaccines are a public good. Most of the benefit of vaccination accrues to the person receiving it. The increased protection to anyone else is infinitesimal, until the vaccination rate is close to 100%, at which point every individual has received the private good of the vaccination.

What conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?
 

The increased protection to me and others is small if you get vaccinated, but we don't consume your vaccine to get that protection. Phenomena like this have been called "goods with some publicness".

'Twould be better to consider this an externality problem, where it is intuitive that pollution harms me a bit and as in your vaccination helps me a little.

The pure public good has also been described as an extreme form of externality.

Herd immunity requires a large percentage of the pop to be vaxxed, but not 100%.

In any case, whoever is vaxxed and thereby does not get sick spares society the various costs of his being sick.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 05, 2024, 06:16:49 PMWhat conditions are necessary for something like that to count as a public good, when it is delivered to individuals?

How else is a "good" delivered except to individuals in one form or another?

Even if you give a demographic something (like giving every redhead born in a leap year $100) or a business sector (tax breaks to every basket weaver) it is still delivered to an individual, even if it means a gift or a bonus or a raise or job creation.

But...

Take this over here rather than derailing this thread: https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=3757.0

That's what it is there for.