Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[Wahoo Redux]

"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

[Hibush]

"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

[dr_codex]

"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map. But that program shares a lot of common ground with the farm-focused parts of the institution.

I wouldn't hold my breath about growth at LIU, on either campus. President Cline was hired because she has a track record of coming is with a hatchet.

[mamselle]

Ohio State is still, to some extent, a "cow college," given that at least some of the corn fields I used to bicycle past are still standing, near West Campus.

Overlooking the football stadium, of course...

M.

[marshwiggle]

"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map.

The vet program at Guelph has been around for decades, so it may not be very useful as an indicator of the value of starting one now.

[dr_codex]

"Putting Liberal Arts on Ice" from IHE.  Long Island University freezing enrollment in a number of LA programs.

How is starting a vet school "playing to your strengths" for LIU?

This hits close to home. LIU and Post have been in a lot of trouble recently, both financial and administrative. The cuts are only going to continue.

A vet school is in some ways an odd choice. It's got to be crazy expensive to set up, and to run. Full medical school tuition isn't going to offset those costs, although a lot of "polo parties" might. My guess is that this is a sop to local personalities; Brookville used to be almost entirely ranch country, and still has a lot of hobby farms. And over the past decade there's been some growth in local animal farming, in part as a consequence of the local food movement and the restaurants on the East end.

If I were in one of the liberal arts departments on the campus, I would look around to see how others do it at "cow colleges". Guelph University, in Canada, runs a robust African Studies program. It seems like an odd choice, especially when you see where Guelph is on a map.

The vet program at Guelph has been around for decades, so it may not be very useful as an indicator of the value of starting one now.

Not my point.

The LIU faculty have a few collective options:
1. Protest the Vet School. It may well turn out to be a non-starter, lacking accreditation and any meaningful revenue stream.
2. Dig in, along traditional disciplinary lines. What I hear out of both campuses is that this hasn't worked, and is unlikely to work. Sure, they could take the VPAA's word that frozen programs might be unfrozen if they demonstrate demand. But when you cannot recruit, it's hard to imagine how you would attract the critical mass to run seminars, let alone lecture classes. Those programs are toast.
3. Develop new programs, probably interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary. If they go this route, it might be strategic to align with other university offerings. That's all I'm saying. Nobody's going to go to LIU Post for "International Basketweaving". They might go for "Equine Studies", with it's innovative curriculum, including courses such as:

* Chariots and Stirrups: Histories of Ancient Warfare
* Locavores and Carnivores: Cultural Studies and Micro-communities
* Trojans: Prophylactics, Gift Horses, and Strategies for Survival in Hostile Academic Environments (Prerequisite: Burning Your Boats I and II)

I don't like being flippant, but I really don't like seeing so many people lose their jobs. I'm open to any suggestions.

[mamselle]

Umm....did you read the full post you quoted?

The Vet school is not new.

It's "been around for decades."

Your analytical premise is vetoed by your reading error.

M.

[spork]

The point is that the current leadership of LIU has apparently decided that a new vet school is more likely to save the university than its existing (or existing until recently) liberal arts programs. This strikes me as Hail Mary, pie in the sky thinking. As this IHE editorial points out, the "build it and they will come" strategy often "ends up being a financial time bomb with a short fuse."

If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

Edited to add:

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?

[Hibush]

If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?

While unclear from the IHE article, but pointed out by Mamselle, LIU Vet is farther along, ready to admit its first class this fall. So there has already been a significant investment.

In terms of location, it is probably fine. Vet schools are mostly small animal (dogs and cats) these days. That training could be supported anywhere that people want to study. Why not the Long Island suburbs? The existing vet schools in the Northeast are Tufts, Penn and Cornell.

The horsey set pays veterinarians, they don't become veterinarians. So to the extent there are horsey parts of Long Island, that may have little influence on the viability. The LI horses are far outnumbered by household pets.

In terms of money sink, it could be a big one. I have seen three vet schools, ones that do large animal teaching and have substantial research programs. A billion dollars would get you the basic infrastructure. How much does LIU have now?

Their financial aid page has some revenue numbers. They are budgeted for 100 students per class at $55,000 tuition per year for four years, and $100 million per year in financial aid. With four classes in place, they would have $120 million in net tuition.

[dr_codex]

Umm....did you read the full post you quoted?

The Vet school is not new.

It's "been around for decades."

Your analytical premise is vetoed by your reading error.

M.

Was that aimed at me? I'm well aware that Guelph's has been around for over a century, and that LIU Post's is just launching. My point was that people at the latter might look to the former for some ways to stick around. Otherwise, they will be frozen out.

[apl68]

It's not exactly financial trouble, but University of Arkansas' flagship campus at Fayetteville has just had an unfortunate accident involving a campus landmark.  The "Spoofer's Stone" was a large stone block left over on campus from construction in the late 1800s.  Students used it for a resting bench.  Then a crack in the stone became a local lover's post box.  It was a site for wedding proposals.  Much of it was gradually chipped away for souvenirs.  It was once stolen like the Stone of Scone in a college prank.  And now it has apparently smashed by accident:


https://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2020/02/25/beloved-spoofers-stone-on-campus-damaged-in-construction-accident/

[dr_codex]

If LIU pulls from a horsey demographic (I don't know if this is actually true), why not the previously-mentioned "equine studies" or vet tech instead of a full-blown vet school? Much cheaper to start.

I'm not very familiar with the higher ed market in the area outside of NYC. Is it similar to the Gulf sheikhdoms, a high income area with capable students attending universities elsewhere and only the lazy dimwits enrolling locally?

While unclear from the IHE article, but pointed out by Mamselle, LIU Vet is farther along, ready to admit its first class this fall. So there has already been a significant investment.

In terms of location, it is probably fine. Vet schools are mostly small animal (dogs and cats) these days. That training could be supported anywhere that people want to study. Why not the Long Island suburbs? The existing vet schools in the Northeast are Tufts, Penn and Cornell.

The horsey set pays veterinarians, they don't become veterinarians. So to the extent there are horsey parts of Long Island, that may have little influence on the viability. The LI horses are far outnumbered by household pets.

In terms of money sink, it could be a big one. I have seen three vet schools, ones that do large animal teaching and have substantial research programs. A billion dollars would get you the basic infrastructure. How much does LIU have now?

Their financial aid page has some revenue numbers. They are budgeted for 100 students per class at $55,000 tuition per year for four years, and $100 million per year in financial aid. With four classes in place, they would have $120 million in net tuition.

Responding to the bolded part -- one of the linked articles mentioned the polo fundraisers, $10k/entrant. Who do you think that's aimed at? These folks don't actually have to be the main customers for the vets; they just have to pony up the money to set up/maintain the school.

Upper Brookville is actually one of the few places in the greater NYC area has any significant demand for equine vets. But there are lots of associated jobs out there, too. One of my relatives works for a national lab that processes samples for vets; it was recently acquired by the Mars Corporation, which realized that there was big money in pet food, and in the whole industry.

Don't get me wrong: I think the whole enterprise is doomed, and LIU Post will regret it. But the people I know who work there are scrambling, and I'm trying to come up with some viable strategies.

[spork]

This is getting off topic and maybe should be a separate thread (I'm not complaining though), but the strategy I have adopted is to try to get a toehold in non-faculty work within the university -- i.e., assessment, retention, strategic planning, LMS management, etc. While I am still full-time faculty and have not converted to a staff or administrative position, my goal is to be front and center in administrators' minds when the possibility of doing so arises. There are multiple disadvantages to this strategy though -- namely that it takes time to cultivate relationships and to sufficiently demonstrate that one possesses the non-faculty skill sets that the university deems important. Also it's not going to be a possibility for everybody, if the university is shutting down multiple academic programs.

[ProfessorPlum]

Budget cuts coming at Ohio University.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-academic-colleges-asked-to-make-m-in-cuts/article_200ba02a-5a5a-11ea-b8ee-8f19440f1dae.html

[mamselle]

That's going to be upsetting to a couple folks I know.

Sorry to hear it.

M.