IHE: Academic Freedom Battles Roil Indiana University

[Wahoo Redux]

Cross-posted on the "Suess" thread----but that doesn't always get a lot of commentary.

IHE: Academic Freedom Battles Roil Indiana University

Lower Deck:

The cancellation of an art exhibit and other recent moves by university leaders have turned the campus into a free speech battleground.

[Hibush]

Is there any other way to read the IU administration's actions as anything but cowardice, especially with the non-credible statements to cover up the lack of legitimate justification?

[Hegemony]

I think they were hoping to dodge controversy, but instead they increased it.

[marshwiggle]

I think they were hoping to dodge controversy, but instead they increased it.

The "security costs" argument has been used for at least a few years to cancel presentation of "conservative" views, so it was only a matter of time until it got used for "liberal" views, (or, in this case, art).

[Wahoo Redux]

I think they were hoping to dodge controversy, but instead they increased it.

The "security costs" argument has been used for at least a few years to cancel presentation of "conservative" views, so it was only a matter of time until it got used for "liberal" views, (or, in this case, art).

Why do conservatives always play the victim card?

The artist is Palestinian, not "liberal" anyway.

[marshwiggle]

I think they were hoping to dodge controversy, but instead they increased it.

The "security costs" argument has been used for at least a few years to cancel presentation of "conservative" views, so it was only a matter of time until it got used for "liberal" views, (or, in this case, art).

Why do conservatives always play the victim card?

What are you talking about? There have been all kinds of cases of speakers getting "disinvited" due to excessive security costs (and/or "concerns"). This is one of them.  It's used by institutions to avoid saying that they disagree with any of the speech itself but can shut it down anyway. (Some places have alternately quoted a cost for security to whoever booked the speaker of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, which the group that booked the speaker can't afford so they have to cancel.)

Since this case isn't a "conservative" one, is this a case of "liberals" "playing the victim card"? And if so, does that make it somehow different?

[Wahoo Redux]

You just provided a perfect example.

The objection to Halaby's art is that it is predicated upon Palestine, not "liberalism." 

Point out where a conservative talk is shut down by overzealous, oversensitive far-left radical kids and I'll join in.

I might ask you to concede that the conservative talk is probably predicated on insulting and propagandizing a marginal group----but then I will defend their right to do so.

[marshwiggle]

You just provided a perfect example.

The objection to Halaby's art is that it is predicated upon Palestine, not "liberalism." 

Point out where a conservative talk is shut down by overzealous, oversensitive far-left radical kids and I'll join in.

I might ask you to concede that the conservative talk is probably predicated on insulting and propagandizing a marginal group----but then I will defend their right to do so.

Again, here was an easy google:

'Disinvitations' for college speakers are on the rise — here's a list of people turned away this year

Here's a fascinating one, and a propos of the current discussion:

University of Chicago — Bassem Eid

Students advocating for the Palestinian cause interrupted and shut down the political analyst and human-rights advocate's speech at the college. Eid, who is himself Palestinian, made comments that were seen as pro-Israel.

"Do not speak on behalf of the Palestinians again!" a student yelled during the event, The Chicago Maroon reported.

Note that it's "predicated on Palestine" as well.

[ciao_yall]

Again, here was an easy google:

Well, if it comes up in a Google search, it must be an Absolute Thing.

Does Google collect news about times people thoughtfully listened to different points of view, appreciated art coming from cultures with whom one was historically at odds, or just decided to do something else instead of buy tickets to shout down a speaker?

Always wondered about that.

[marshwiggle]

Again, here was an easy google:

Well, if it comes up in a Google search, it must be an Absolute Thing.

So are you saying that's "fake news"?

Does Google collect news about times people thoughtfully listened to different points of view, appreciated art coming from cultures with whom one was historically at odds, or just decided to do something else instead of buy tickets to shout down a speaker?

Always wondered about that.

Um, google searches all kinds of online content, but what results it displays depends on what search terms are used.

So, a different search could have found "news about times people thoughtfully listened to different points of view, appreciated art coming from cultures with whom one was historically at odds, or just decided to do something else instead of buy tickets to shout down a speaker".

Similarly, a google search for something like "domestic harmony" would turn up lots of examples of healthy relationships. That doesn't mean that the results of a search for "domestic violence" are invalid, or that domestic violence isn't a problem.

[Wahoo Redux]

You just provided a perfect example.

The objection to Halaby's art is that it is predicated upon Palestine, not "liberalism." 

Point out where a conservative talk is shut down by overzealous, oversensitive far-left radical kids and I'll join in.

I might ask you to concede that the conservative talk is probably predicated on insulting and propagandizing a marginal group----but then I will defend their right to do so.

Again, here was an easy google:

'Disinvitations' for college speakers are on the rise — here's a list of people turned away this year

Here's a fascinating one, and a propos of the current discussion:

University of Chicago — Bassem Eid

Students advocating for the Palestinian cause interrupted and shut down the political analyst and human-rights advocate's speech at the college. Eid, who is himself Palestinian, made comments that were seen as pro-Israel.

"Do not speak on behalf of the Palestinians again!" a student yelled during the event, The Chicago Maroon reported.

Note that it's "predicated on Palestine" as well.

And Marshyboo I have curated an entire thread about this very thing. Remember? You should repost that link on the "Seuss" thread.

And Marsh-Marsh-Baby I said I would join you in objecting to speaker cancelations.   

Part of the deal is people like yourself laying down the victim card whenever their is "liberal" objection.  Take note of ciao_yall's point that a lot of these talks go down and they are just fine.  Ben Shapiro brings his preppy little hate talk for big money to all kinds of campuses, as do a number of other ultimately forgettable prognosticators riding the hate train.

And part of it is the hypocrisy which you seem utterly blind to. 

You would happy ban drag queens from the library.

You support legislation which you misname "neutrality" when it is obviously aimed at a very specific demographic.

And then you cry abuse when a speaker is cancelled.

You give out hate you get hate back, my friend. 

[apl68]

I don't believe it's fair to accuse marshwiggle of hate.  He disagrees with you.  He does so civilly.  His manner of debating can be a bit annoying at times, but I've never known him to stoop to insulting anybody.

[marshwiggle]

I don't believe it's fair to accuse marshwiggle of hate.  He disagrees with you.  He does so civilly.  His manner of debating can be a bit annoying at times, but I've never known him to stoop to insulting anybody.

I think Wahoo believes I'm far more emotionally invested in this than I am. The sad result of highly polarized debates is that it creates the illusion that moderate voices who aren't on either extreme don't exist, even though they're often a large group. For all kinds of issues, polls consistently show most people don't subscribe to the extreme views at either end of the spectrum, but because the extreme voices are the loudest ones that's all that appears to exist.

[Wahoo Redux]

I don't believe it's fair to accuse marshwiggle of hate.  He disagrees with you.  He does so civilly.  His manner of debating can be a bit annoying at times, but I've never known him to stoop to insulting anybody.

I will disagree.

I have no doubt that if Marshy finds a wallet on the sidewalk he makes sure that it gets back to the owner, cash and cards intact.  If Marshy drove up on an overturned car spouting flames he would risk his own life to rescue the driver.  He is very civil, as am I.  Marshy has lots of friends, I am sure, and is devoted to and loved by his family.  His coworkers all think he is boss.

But the things he has said constitute hateful positions. We discuss banning drag queens from the library----from the public sphere, really----and the erasure of rainbow crosswalks under the pretense of "neutrality"----the silencing of a traditionally marginalized and constantly threatened minority.

Marshy does not think he has hateful views or says hateful things, as do a great many good people, but the things he says and believes are hate. 

The Mods may delete my posts or censure me, but so be it.

I'm sorry, Marshy.  You are a good dude.  That is why it is so disturbing to read the things you post which to you seem to be naturally wholesome.  It is not a matter of how angry you get, it is the things you've been taught and recite.

The sad result of highly polarized debates is that it creates the illusion that moderate voices who aren't on either extreme don't exist

I see very little moderate in your views, my friend.

[marshwiggle]

But the things he has said constitute hateful positions. We discuss banning drag queens from the library----from the public sphere, really----and the erasure of rainbow crosswalks under the pretense of "neutrality"----the silencing of a traditionally marginalized and constantly threatened minority.

Marshy does not think he has hateful views or says hateful things, as do a great many good people, but the things he says and believes are hate. 

So was society a much more hateful place a decade or so ago when there were neither rainbow crosswalks nor drag queen story time? Were all of those people marginalized until crosswalks were painted and story time was instituted? Are drag queens only in "the public sphere" because of story time?

(For comparison, I don't think Christians are "banned from the public sphere" if they can't have a nativity display on public property, or anything like that. How a group is viewed by the rest of the public is very little influenced by any sort of government declaration or display.)