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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:15:12 PM

Poll
Question: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Option 1: Yes
Option 2: No
Option 3: Maybe so
Title: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:15:12 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/19/politics/takeaways-jan-6-committee-meeting/index.html
QuoteFor months, the committee went back-and-forth over whether it would refer Trump to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution.

On Monday, the committee didn't equivocate.

The committee referred Trump to DOJ on at least four criminal charges, while saying in its executive summary it had evidence of possible charges of conspiring to injure or impede an officer and seditious conspiracy.

What do you say, should the DOJ indict Trump for his role in January 6th?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:34:45 PM
I will kick things off by voting "no."

As much as I dislike Trump and as much as I think he is guilty of various crimes against democracy (not to mention decency), an indictment and the subsequent trial would be incredibly divisive and he'd probably be pardoned, perhaps by Biden and certainly by the next Republican president. The country will be better served by letting him live out his days golfing at Mar a Lago and grifting a dwindling pool of die hards.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Ruralguy on December 19, 2022, 07:45:57 PM
Ill say that it depends,and I think justice is only likely to pursue the lesser charges.

That doesnt mean it would go to trial or that hed get a jail sentence.

I think Biden would commute any sentence.

My personal opinion is that hes complicit in all of it,but what I think and what I can prove
in court are different animals.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 19, 2022, 09:41:46 PM
Unequivocally yes. Presidents are not kings. They cannot be above the law. They especially cannot be above the law as private citizens.

If prior Presidents had not been treated as above the law, things would never have come to this juncture.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: kaysixteen on December 19, 2022, 10:05:47 PM
What para said.  Besides, this sort of thing happens in other democracies all the time, when a former leader is corrupt.   Why it should be different here is hard to fathom.

Also, even if Biden keeps Trump out of Leavenworth, he cannot pardon Trump out of state charges in NY or GA, at least in the latter of which are sure to be soon in the offing.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 10:19:04 PM
While I agree that Trump did terrible things and it pains me to say that he should not face charges, 40% of the country would see this as being purely political, and that will delegitimize democracy and the American government more generally in their eyes. To do that would be, in my opinion, more harmful to the country then letting Trump walk away. This is especially true now, with Trump's political position having been significantly weakened by the midterms.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2022, 06:31:11 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:34:45 PM
I will kick things off by voting "no."

As much as I dislike Trump and as much as I think he is guilty of various crimes against democracy (not to mention decency), an indictment and the subsequent trial would be incredibly divisive and he'd probably be pardoned, perhaps by Biden and certainly by the next Republican president. The country will be better served by letting him live out his days golfing at Mar a Lago and grifting a dwindling pool of die hards.

I worry what this trial is going to accomplish.  Nevertheless, I voted "Yes."

We will have some sort of violence, I think.  But that is the price of fighting back a tyrant.  In a way I am proud of America.  We certainly stumbled but in the end the country was strong enough to back down a would-be dictator.  I am not being hyperbolic.

I very seriously doubt that any ex-prez will ever go to prison.  We just need this because no one is above the law and the message needs to be inscribed in stone for future generations.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Hibush on December 20, 2022, 06:54:03 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 10:19:04 PM
40% of the country would see this as being purely political, and that will delegitimize democracy and the American government more generally in their eyes.
That ship has already sailed. Failing to act would delegitimize the government for many of the other 60%.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2022, 07:14:15 AM
NBC News: The Jan. 6 committee referred Trump to the Justice Department. That was a mistake. (Opinion) (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/house-jan-6-committee-refers-trump-justice-department-mistake-rcna62375)

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: apl68 on December 20, 2022, 07:25:28 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:34:45 PM
I will kick things off by voting "no."

As much as I dislike Trump and as much as I think he is guilty of various crimes against democracy (not to mention decency), an indictment and the subsequent trial would be incredibly divisive and he'd probably be pardoned, perhaps by Biden and certainly by the next Republican president. The country will be better served by letting him live out his days golfing at Mar a Lago and grifting a dwindling pool of die hards.

Those were my thoughts awhile back.  But now I'm inclined to say that he should face charges, in the interest of trying to finish putting a stake through the heart of his political career.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: marshwiggle on December 20, 2022, 08:49:24 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 10:19:04 PM
While I agree that Trump did terrible things and it pains me to say that he should not face charges, 40% of the country would see this as being purely political, and that will delegitimize democracy and the American government more generally in their eyes. To do that would be, in my opinion, more harmful to the country then letting Trump walk away. This is especially true now, with Trump's political position having been significantly weakened by the midterms.

Another factor to consider is that going forward with this keeps getting Trump publicity, which is oxygen for a political campaign. As long as he's in the news, for whatever reason, he still seems "relevant".

I think the DOJ not proceeding would be the best way to get him out of peoples' minds. (I'm reminded of mass muderers, who get way more publicity than their victims. It's a sad irony.)
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2022, 09:34:55 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 20, 2022, 08:49:24 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 10:19:04 PM
While I agree that Trump did terrible things and it pains me to say that he should not face charges, 40% of the country would see this as being purely political, and that will delegitimize democracy and the American government more generally in their eyes. To do that would be, in my opinion, more harmful to the country then letting Trump walk away. This is especially true now, with Trump's political position having been significantly weakened by the midterms.

Another factor to consider is that going forward with this keeps getting Trump publicity, which is oxygen for a political campaign. As long as he's in the news, for whatever reason, he still seems "relevant".

I think the DOJ not proceeding would be the best way to get him out of peoples' minds. (I'm reminded of mass muderers, who get way more publicity than their victims. It's a sad irony.)

I agree and worry about this effect.

At the same time, I think all these charges are affecting conservatives who actually believe in the ethics and the law.  Unfortunately, DeSantis (who is just as evil and crazy but much, much smarter) is gaining with the party of law and order as Trump becomes increasingly untenable as a candidate.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 20, 2022, 10:14:35 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2022, 07:14:15 AM
NBC News: The Jan. 6 committee referred Trump to the Justice Department. That was a mistake. (Opinion) (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/house-jan-6-committee-refers-trump-justice-department-mistake-rcna62375)

I have to agree with this oped. The committee did a great job showing Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the election, but to recommend prosecution politicizes what should be an apolitical decision by the DOJ (or at least creates the perception of politicization).

Quote from: apl68 on December 20, 2022, 07:25:28 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 19, 2022, 07:34:45 PM
I will kick things off by voting "no."

As much as I dislike Trump and as much as I think he is guilty of various crimes against democracy (not to mention decency), an indictment and the subsequent trial would be incredibly divisive and he'd probably be pardoned, perhaps by Biden and certainly by the next Republican president. The country will be better served by letting him live out his days golfing at Mar a Lago and grifting a dwindling pool of die hards.

Those were my thoughts awhile back.  But now I'm inclined to say that he should face charges, in the interest of trying to finish putting a stake through the heart of his political career.

Are we sure it would have this effect? Trump seems to have declared candidacy in large part to keep prosecutors at bay and so I doubt he would withdrawal if faced with charges. In the meantime, prosecution would galvanize his supporters and perhaps help him win the nomination.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: little bongo on December 20, 2022, 10:30:28 AM
While I understand (and to some degree, share) the fear and uncertainty with regard to charging Trump and what might happen that could prove advantageous to him, I don't think such fear and uncertainty should guide the decision. Evidence should guide the decision. So my vote is yes.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: clean on December 20, 2022, 10:40:13 AM
If indicted, would any jury convict?  (given how polarized society is, someone on the jury would be a Trump fan, unable to convict, regardless of the evidence)
If not convicted, then he would be free to use that as vindication and fuel for his next campaign. 

(IF doomed to fail, and given the consequences of failure, then why indict, especially given the precedent and claims of political bias that would result, not to mention the potential calls for impeaching and seeking wrong doings from the next batch of political leaders/candidates). 

IS the cost more than the potential gain?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on December 20, 2022, 11:33:38 AM
If we don't indict because we are afraid of what the Trumpies might do, then we may as well admit they won.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 20, 2022, 12:14:51 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 19, 2022, 10:05:47 PM
What para said.  Besides, this sort of thing happens in other democracies all the time, when a former leader is corrupt.   Why it should be different here is hard to fathom.

It is the level of the corruption and violence which is unprecedented and ongoing. 

The Republicans were willing to impeach Nixon for far, far less and Nixon willingly resigned.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Ruralguy on December 20, 2022, 12:20:22 PM
The 1970s Republicans were not cult members bowing to Dear Leader.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: cathwen on December 20, 2022, 01:10:09 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 20, 2022, 11:33:38 AM
If we don't indict because we are afraid of what the Trumpies might do, then we may as well admit they won.

I agree entirely.  We cannot let fear of his supporters and what they might or might not do take the justice system hostage.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: clean on December 20, 2022, 07:39:56 PM
Why attack him and give rise to a martyr syndrome?
Let the cause die in silence by ignoring it.

He did it.  Can you PROVE he did it to a jury that includes his supporters?

IF you do not convict, then he has a ton more press and can further bring news to his cause, and you make HIM the victim.   
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: kaysixteen on December 20, 2022, 09:03:11 PM
We're missing the key point here, namely, that we need to do whatever it takes, within the law, to prevent this person from ever disgracing the presidency again.

Why exactly is it that other democracies have shown the ability to prosecute corrupt ex-leaders?  BTW, take Britain and Canada, for instance-- are any PMs in either country's history known for having committed obviously illegal acts in office?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 20, 2022, 10:15:29 PM
Quote from: clean on December 20, 2022, 07:39:56 PM
Why attack him and give rise to a martyr syndrome?
Let the cause die in silence by ignoring it.

He did it.  Can you PROVE he did it to a jury that includes his supporters?

IF you do not convict, then he has a ton more press and can further bring news to his cause, and you make HIM the victim.   

They've already got a martyr complex going strong. That's why they believe the election was stolen.

As I see it, not pursuing him for his myriad crimes is tantamount to conceding that they were not, in fact, crimes. In addition to then allowing him and his cultists to scream victory and dismiss the allegations entirely, it also sets a precedent for future presidents. When President Hunter Biden/Hillary Clinton does whatever and argues they are being discriminated against by the DOJ, they'll be entirely right to say so. And if Trump regains the presidency, well, that means he can do just as much again with impunity.

Nor is this unique to Trump. At the very least, GWB and his cronies should have faced justice, too (though of course the same is true for many of their predecessors, too). But they didn't, and now it's really hard to roll the tape back on torture (as Obama discovered), pre-emptive war (the Iran sabres will start to rattle again very soon), an out-of-control national security state, etc.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: jimbogumbo on December 21, 2022, 08:27:01 AM
100% yes.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: dismalist on December 21, 2022, 09:13:52 AM
The committee, composed exclusively of anti-trumpers, is out of bounds. It is supposed to propose to Congress, not to the DoJ. But if it were to, it would be proposing a Bill of Attainder, which is unconstitutional. The committee is sending documents to the DoJ. It's pure performance art.

But no worries: There's a Special Counsel investigating Trump, and he decides whether to prosecute or not.





Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 21, 2022, 01:01:24 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 20, 2022, 10:15:29 PM
They've already got a martyr complex going strong.

Sorry Big-D, but those of us who have followed the Trumpee drama since the beginning have become very, very dubious about wailing conservatives who constantly believe in some sort of Constitutional violation.

I suspect Congresspeople know the laws.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on December 23, 2022, 04:32:33 AM
Perhaps the real question is not "should" he be indicted, but on what charges.  While I think he was deeply involved in orchestrating the coup, it's not an ,easy charge and difficult to prove legally.  I think Jack Smith will advise Garland to charge on the secret documents/ ignoring subpoenas, and Garland will bring those charges.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: marshwiggle on December 23, 2022, 05:40:11 AM
Question for those in favour of charges going forward:

How (and to what degree) was Trump seriously harmed by the failed impeachment process? Any failed criminal proceeding will probably have a similar effect.

(Even a "conviction" that results in little or no jail time, or gets a presidential pardon, is likely to have a similar effect.)
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 23, 2022, 08:14:32 AM
I'm not concerned with harming him, but rather with setting the right precedents for future presidents (himself included).

I would be very upset with a pardoned conviction. Presidents must be subjects of the law. This is particularly important while in office, but especially true when they are private citizens. Equality before the law and the impartiality of the law are key pillars of a functioning democracy.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on December 23, 2022, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 23, 2022, 05:40:11 AM
Question for those in favour of charges going forward:

How (and to what degree) was Trump seriously harmed by the failed impeachment process?

The GOP was harmed by driving them into greater and fiercer divisions, which showed in the 2022 midterms and is continuing to spiral today.

Quote
Any failed criminal proceeding will probably have a similar effect. (Even a "conviction" that results in little or no jail time, or gets a presidential pardon, is likely to have a similar effect.)

The truth will continue to be exposed. The GOP will continue to have to wrestle with these facts in primaries and general elections.

So far, not working out so well for them.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on December 23, 2022, 09:01:39 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 23, 2022, 05:40:11 AM
Question for those in favour of charges going forward:

How (and to what degree) was Trump seriously harmed by the failed impeachment process? Any failed criminal proceeding will probably have a similar effect.

(Even a "conviction" that results in little or no jail time, or gets a presidential pardon, is likely to have a similar effect.)

I see your point.  Indicting him for anything will generate unrest and threats from his supporters, and those assholes who just want an opportunity to shoot something.  Being impeached didn't hurt him, nor did it hurt Clinton; the threat of impeachment coupled with honorable Senators telling him to go pushed out "I am not a crook."  If Garland indicts, I think the evidence will be strong enough to get a conviction, especially if it relates to the documents at Mar a Lago.  And I now surmise that the IRS will be scrutinizing his returns for tax fraud/evasion.  Mitch McConnell is a bellwether of public opinion, and he's pretty much saying Dumpf is toast.....
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on December 23, 2022, 06:07:38 PM
This is a really good article about Kevin McCarthy and Donald Trump (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/12/26/what-kevin-mccarthy-will-do-to-gain-power) that reminded me of y'all.

TLDR: Kevin kissed up to Trump, and now he's caught between a rock and a hard place.

Let me know if it's behind a paywall and I'll send you a pdf.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 21, 2023, 09:09:43 PM
Bumping this in light of possible (likely?) indictment coming out of NY this week.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on March 21, 2023, 09:23:06 PM
I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about possible this and possible that, imminent this and imminent that, looming this and looming that . . .

Just charge the guy, already.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on March 22, 2023, 12:29:55 AM
Turns out the whole thing was Trump chumming the media. Apparently the grand jury hasn't even voted whether or not to indict.

Cancel red alert, move along, nothing to see here.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 22, 2023, 08:26:56 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 22, 2023, 12:29:55 AM
Turns out the whole thing was Trump chumming the media. Apparently the grand jury hasn't even voted whether or not to indict.

Cancel red alert, move along, nothing to see here.

I don't know about "nothing to see." Trump jumped the gun by announcing he would be indicted on Tuesday specifically, but the general consensus in the media is that indictment is very likely in the coming days and all the relevant parties are reportedly planning the logistics for how Trump will be processed.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on March 25, 2023, 08:52:32 PM
Anybody see the deep fake AI-engineered photos (https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1637927681734987777?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20230324&utm_term=The%20Atlantic%20Daily) of Trump's "arrest?"

They are hilarious.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Kron3007 on March 26, 2023, 06:29:49 AM
Quote from: lightning on March 21, 2023, 09:23:06 PM
I'm so friggin' tired of hearing about possible this and possible that, imminent this and imminent that, looming this and looming that . . .

Just charge the guy, already.

Yes, I agree. It is impossible to predict the outcome of either action.  Further, deciding whether to charge someone based on the political fallout only proves the point and makes the problems worse.  What should happen, is the DOJ or whoever) should evaluate the evidence and if they have sufficient proof that a crime was committed and could potentially prosecute, that is what should happen. 

The irony is that people are worried that his followers will think it is all political, so the proposed solution is to not charge him for political reasons?  Doesn't this just prove the point to some degree?that the justice system is influenced by political considerations?  This decision, and the department of Justice, should be completely separate from politics, end of story.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: jimbogumbo on March 30, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/30/trump-indicted-manhattan-grand-jury-criminal
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on March 30, 2023, 03:30:15 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 30, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/30/trump-indicted-manhattan-grand-jury-criminal

That's nice. But, Georgia. For the luv of Allah. Georgia, please. Get moving.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 30, 2023, 03:38:22 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on March 30, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/30/trump-indicted-manhattan-grand-jury-criminal

Dun dun dun....

This appears to be the weakest of the various cases against Trump and the one that can most easily be chalked up to partisanship. Still, bad news for Trump imo, despite some claims floating around that this will help him politically.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Ruralguy on March 30, 2023, 05:27:01 PM
I don't think its really the weakest, considering that a co-conspirator was already put in prison for this crime. It may be the one with the least impact either way.

I agree that Georgia is probably the strongest case, at least on what we know.

Now don't get me wrong here, I think Trump was responsible for 1/06 , but nailing him for anything specific may be extremely difficult. In that sense, 1/06, though the highest impact, may actually be the weakest case.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: dismalist on March 30, 2023, 05:31:29 PM
From the Babylon Bee about 12 days ago:

Manhattan DA Announces Plan To Get Trump Elected In 2024

https://babylonbee.com/news/manhattan-da-announces-plan-to-get-trump-elected-in-2024 (https://babylonbee.com/news/manhattan-da-announces-plan-to-get-trump-elected-in-2024)
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 30, 2023, 10:03:35 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 30, 2023, 05:27:01 PM
I don't think its really the weakest, considering that a co-conspirator was already put in prison for this crime. It may be the one with the least impact either way.

I agree that Georgia is probably the strongest case, at least on what we know.

Now don't get me wrong here, I think Trump was responsible for 1/06 , but nailing him for anything specific may be extremely difficult. In that sense, 1/06, though the highest impact, may actually be the weakest case.

Maybe so on the bolded. I agree that Georgia is the strongest case, based on what we know.


Quote from: dismalist on March 30, 2023, 05:31:29 PM
From the Babylon Bee about 12 days ago:

Manhattan DA Announces Plan To Get Trump Elected In 2024

https://babylonbee.com/news/manhattan-da-announces-plan-to-get-trump-elected-in-2024 (https://babylonbee.com/news/manhattan-da-announces-plan-to-get-trump-elected-in-2024)

Funny (sort of), but in all seriousness it is hard to see how getting indicted for paying hush money to a porn star helps Trump win the election in 2024.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2023, 10:32:53 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 30, 2023, 10:03:35 PM

Funny (sort of), but in all seriousness it is hard to see how getting indicted for paying hush money to a porn star helps Trump win the election in 2024.

"Democrats are so scared of me, they're throwing the kitchen sink at me. I didn't pay her any money. My lawyer, Michael [Cohen], did. I just paid his bill, then took advantage of tax law to deduct the expense. Which is legal, by the way."

I don't know that it wins him legions of new fans or anything, but I don't see it hurting him. It plays into the Republic persecution fantasy, and gives them feels for scaring the shit out of Democrats with their guy. That's all attractive to them. But they're going to line up behind him (again) once he wins the nomination anyway, so it's kind of irrelevant.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Kron3007 on March 31, 2023, 05:56:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2023, 10:32:53 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 30, 2023, 10:03:35 PM

Funny (sort of), but in all seriousness it is hard to see how getting indicted for paying hush money to a porn star helps Trump win the election in 2024.

"Democrats are so scared of me, they're throwing the kitchen sink at me. I didn't pay her any money. My lawyer, Michael [Cohen], did. I just paid his bill, then took advantage of tax law to deduct the expense. Which is legal, by the way."

I don't know that it wins him legions of new fans or anything, but I don't see it hurting him. It plays into the Republic persecution fantasy, and gives them feels for scaring the shit out of Democrats with their guy. That's all attractive to them. But they're going to line up behind him (again) once he wins the nomination anyway, so it's kind of irrelevant.

Well, they will rally behind him regardless, but I can see how this type of thing will help fire them up.  For this election, I don't think the key will be to convince people to vote differently as it is pretty polarized.  What will be more important is who can encourage their base to get out and actually vote, and that is where this type of thing could have an impact.  Hopefully, it can also encourage the other side to get out and vote so stop him.

Regardless, these assumptions should not factor into the decision to charge him or not.  The impact of this is far too unpredictable, but more importantly,  the justice system should be independent of politics.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 31, 2023, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on March 30, 2023, 10:32:53 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 30, 2023, 10:03:35 PM

Funny (sort of), but in all seriousness it is hard to see how getting indicted for paying hush money to a porn star helps Trump win the election in 2024.

"Democrats are so scared of me, they're throwing the kitchen sink at me. I didn't pay her any money. My lawyer, Michael [Cohen], did. I just paid his bill, then took advantage of tax law to deduct the expense. Which is legal, by the way."

I don't know that it wins him legions of new fans or anything, but I don't see it hurting him. It plays into the Republic persecution fantasy, and gives them feels for scaring the shit out of Democrats with their guy. That's all attractive to them. But they're going to line up behind him (again) once he wins the nomination anyway, so it's kind of irrelevant.

Trump didn't have a big enough coalition to win the election in 2020, even before January 6th and this indictment. How would these enormous stains on his already tarnished reputation help him win over Independents, pull Democrats to his side, or bring along the Republicans who were too sickened by his awfulness to vote for him in 2020? I don't see it.

The stronger case is that it gives him a boost in the race for the Republican nomination, although even there I don't think this will help him. He's already running as a loser with a ton of baggage. There are other, better options out there, with Desantis being the obvious choice. This just seems like one more reason for Republicans to move on, even if many of them feel that it is political and that he is a victim of prosecutorial overreach.

And there may be more indictments - and more serious indictments - in his future.



Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on March 31, 2023, 07:59:20 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on March 31, 2023, 05:56:24 AM

Regardless, these assumptions should not factor into the decision to charge him or not.  The impact of this is far too unpredictable, but more importantly,  the justice system should be independent of politics.

Absolutely. ITMFA!

Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 31, 2023, 07:24:57 AM

Trump didn't have a big enough coalition to win the election in 2020, even before January 6th and this indictment. How would these enormous stains on his already tarnished reputation help him win over Independents, pull Democrats to his side, or bring along the Republicans who were too sickened by his awfulness to vote for him in 2020? I don't see it.

Trump very nearly did win 2020. Wisconsin was the state that put Biden over the EC mark, and he won it by 0.6 points, 49.4%-48.8%. Georgia and Arizona were even closer. That was painted as the once-in-a-lifetime-make-or-break election for Democrats. 22 million more people voted in 2020 than in 2016. I doubt they can paint this election like that, and they're sitting on a so-so record of doing stuff, with many of the early gains petering out or being reversed at this point (FFS, they're considering reinstating the family separation policy!). I don't think Republicans care about Trump's reputation at all. They care about booting out Democrats and imposing their (unpopular, theocratic, fascist, etc.) will on them.

Quote
The stronger case is that it gives him a boost in the race for the Republican nomination, although even there I don't think this will help him. He's already running as a loser with a ton of baggage. There are other, better options out there, with Desantis being the obvious choice. This just seems like one more reason for Republicans to move on, even if many of them feel that it is political and that he is a victim of prosecutorial overreach.

And there may be more indictments - and more serious indictments - in his future.

As I see it, Trump's got the unwavering support of ~30% of Republican primary voters. That's enough to put him ahead in a primary that's contested between several candidates. More importantly, though, that's enough for him to hold Republicans hostage: if they nominate someone else and he decides to run as a third party, that's the election lost for Republicans.

They might prefer DeSantis as a somewhat sanitized Trump, but I think they'd rather not tank the election (and possibly the party) entirely. DeSantis looks to me like he's hoping Trump's legal woes will prevent him from running. But, honestly, I don't think he'll fare well in the contest with Trump. He is, after all, just imitating Trump, and Trump pointing that out will definitely sway a chunk of Republicans. It's his party, after all. And Trump's already insinuated that he's a pedophile, and it's a plausible charge because he was the creepy teacher partying with his under-age students. I expect he'll lean into that, and no doubt so will QAnon. Even if DeSantis makes it through the primary, that will be very damaging.

Besides, he's not running as a loser. He's running as the president-in-exile. Party-wide persecution narrative, remember?  =/
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 31, 2023, 08:09:32 AM
^^^^^^^^^

I get your point, but I just don't see it. Trump has his die hards and he could get the nomination in a crowded Republican field. But the question is whether being indicted will help him politically and I don't think it will. It is one more reason not to nominate a guy who many Republicans are ready to move on from. And I don't see any case for this helping him in the general election.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on June 07, 2023, 06:31:26 PM
Bump... Lots of rumblings over the last few days.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on June 08, 2023, 05:39:59 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on June 07, 2023, 06:31:26 PM
Bump... Lots of rumblings over the last few days.

My completely unfounded prognostication is....yup.  In Florida, with Marky Meadows turning rat.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on June 09, 2023, 05:19:54 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on June 08, 2023, 05:39:59 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on June 07, 2023, 06:31:26 PM
Bump... Lots of rumblings over the last few days.

My completely unfounded prognostication is....yup.  In Florida, with Marky Meadows turning rat.

Dang!  Quoting myself 'cuz I demonstrated such stellar wisdom, though we'll have to wait on the trial to see if little Marky turned rat.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on June 10, 2023, 05:27:27 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

Like a stone wrapped in heavy chain around a truck battery and tossed into the ocean off Palm Beach.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on June 11, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Read today that the Clerk of that court said she'd stay unless she recused herself.  It will be interesting to watch unfold.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on June 11, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on June 11, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Read today that the Clerk of that court said she'd stay unless she recused herself.  It will be interesting to watch unfold.

In a way, the pressure is on her to be extremely scrupulous. If she manipulates things too blatantly, the Justice Department would appeal and potentially put her up on charges of misconduct.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on June 12, 2023, 05:17:21 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on June 11, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on June 11, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PM
So... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Read today that the Clerk of that court said she'd stay unless she recused herself.  It will be interesting to watch unfold.

In a way, the pressure is on her to be extremely scrupulous. If she manipulates things too blatantly, the Justice Department would appeal and potentially put her up on charges of misconduct.

That would certainly put the prosecution in a dreadful bind.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: jimbogumbo on June 12, 2023, 01:38:30 PM
I completely agree with this sentiment from Neil Steinberg: https://www.everygoddamnday.com
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Puget on June 12, 2023, 03:54:23 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on June 11, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on June 11, 2023, 06:57:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PMSo... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
 a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Read today that the Clerk of that court said she'd stay unless she recused herself.  It will be interesting to watch unfold.

In a way, the pressure is on her to be extremely scrupulous. If she manipulates things too blatantly, the Justice Department would appeal and potentially put her up on charges of misconduct.

I can imagine that this may actually be strategic on the part of the prosecutors -- they think they have an air tight case given that they have actual recordings etc., and so would prefer to have a win before a clearly Trump-friendly judge so there can't be any reasonable claim that the judge was biased against him. Besides which, it will be a jury trial from what I understand?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: kaysixteen on June 12, 2023, 05:33:13 PM
Well, ah, Trump and Trump alone retains the right to waive this right to a jury trial and insist on a bench one.   IIRC, there would be nothing the prosecutors could do about that?
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: ciao_yall on June 12, 2023, 10:33:25 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 12, 2023, 05:33:13 PMWell, ah, Trump and Trump alone retains the right to waive this right to a jury trial and insist on a bench one.   IIRC, there would be nothing the prosecutors could do about that?

Interesting article in the New Yorker (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/will-the-judge-in-trumps-case-recuse-herself-or-be-forced-to) about the various possibilities.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Caracal on June 13, 2023, 05:20:10 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2023, 04:19:45 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 09, 2023, 12:34:43 PMSo... uh... Aileen Cannon (https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-aileen-cannon-trump-appointee-initially-assigned-oversee/story?id=99956910) will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
 a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Yeah, what I posted earlier was based on someone who seemed well credentialed, but what I've read since doesn't seem to back it up. I get the impression that some of the confusion is because these things are often worked out in informal ways where a judge initially assigned to a case might end up giving way to a judge who has more experience dealing with similar cases if the case is potentially complicated or high profile. I would also imagine that lawyers really don't want to question the competency or impartiality of judges except as a last resort in extreme cases. So, it's possible that the prosecutors expect that the case might be reassigned. It's a very opaque system though so really hard to know...
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Caracal on June 13, 2023, 06:10:37 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 12, 2023, 05:33:13 PMWell, ah, Trump and Trump alone retains the right to waive this right to a jury trial and insist on a bench one.   IIRC, there would be nothing the prosecutors could do about that?

It seems like the federal rules are that the prosecution would have to agree to a bench trial as well.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on June 13, 2023, 01:29:23 PM
I voted that Trump should be prosecuted in the poll...but now I wish they weren't. 

I have no doubt that he is guilty, and I agree that no one is above the law, even the POTUS, but this is not good for the country.  The prosecution has put Trump back in the headlines----he is now THE headline----and given him a megaphone.  His followers are energized and outraged, and I fear what they will do. Trump is now a martyr. The "Biden is jailing a political rival" meme fits right in with the conspiracy-minded Republicans.  Plus, even through there are big differences between the two cases, Hillary's idiotic choice to put a server in her basement sure looks like a double-standard for those people not willing to actually look into the scenario.  I wonder at the expense of all this, and I wonder what will happen if he is found guilty; we would never put an ex-prez in prison.  So what do we have---house arrest?  And if Trump is acquitted?  Oh boy, what an agitprop that will be.

I think Trump deserves justice, the charges are warranted, but I'm just not sure that this whole prosecution is good for the U.S. of A. It seems like the costs outweigh the reward.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on June 13, 2023, 02:33:40 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 13, 2023, 01:29:23 PMI voted that Trump should be prosecuted in the poll...but now I wish they weren't. 

I have no doubt that he is guilty, and I agree that no one is above the law, even the POTUS, but this is not good for the country.  The prosecution has put Trump back in the headlines----he is now THE headline----and given him a megaphone.  His followers are energized and outraged, and I fear what they will do. Trump is now a martyr. The "Biden is jailing a political rival" meme fits right in with the conspiracy-minded Republicans.  Plus, even through there are big differences between the two cases, Hillary's idiotic choice to put a server in her basement sure looks like a double-standard for those people not willing to actually look into the scenario.  I wonder at the expense of all this, and I wonder what will happen if he is found guilty; we would never put an ex-prez in prison.  So what do we have---house arrest?  And if Trump is acquitted?  Oh boy, what an agitprop that will be.

I think Trump deserves justice, the charges are warranted, but I'm just not sure that this whole prosecution is good for the U.S. of A. It seems like the costs outweigh the reward.

Certainly there will be repercussions, but letting Trump get away with it, will only embolden the MAGAs, Q, bigots, and all the other related idiots who were validated and who briefly tasted symbolic power for 4 years.

We are not dealing with reasonable people.

Let the probes, investigations, indictments, prosecutions, and civil suits, run their course, and pile on. Make them lose over and over and over again. There's no turning back, now. I'm looking forward next to Georgia. Let them be angry. If they really want a civil war, again, let them be invited to start one (they won't--they're all talk).
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on July 19, 2023, 08:22:07 AM
Another indictment appears to be on the way for Trump:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/live-blog/rcna92693

And, in the meantime, 16 fake electors charged in Michigan:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/politics/michigan-fake-electors-bios/index.html
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on August 01, 2023, 03:42:42 PM
And there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Parasaurolophus on August 01, 2023, 04:23:36 PM
Finally. Well done.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on August 01, 2023, 03:42:42 PMAnd there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.

All this has put the big evil Cheetos back in the headlines and given his mob a focal point for their conspiracy theories.

Not that he shouldn't be prosecuted...but it does empower Drumpf to a degree...
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on August 02, 2023, 10:05:04 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on August 01, 2023, 03:42:42 PMAnd there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.

All this has put the big evil Cheetos back in the headlines and given his mob a focal point for their conspiracy theories.

Not that he shouldn't be prosecuted...but it does empower Drumpf to a degree...

Empowered only because everyone was dragging their feet. Instead of just being a high-profile criminal case, it is now that AND it's now also an election focal point.

Trump should have been behind bars two years ago, like the QAnon Shaman and all the other goons, and then everyone would have forgotten about him and the country could have moved on.

Now, it's an election issue, which, beginning on November 5, 2024 through January 20, 2025, could cause yet more duress, more goons, more conspiracies, more guns stored in nearby hotel rooms, more local election workers getting harassed & threatened, more election officers either pulling shenanigans or getting threatened, more state and local politicians pulling shenanigans or getting harassed, more strains on law enforcement, more Confederate flags on pickup trucks driving through town, more court dockets clogged up, and more deterioration of the confidence of American society remaining stable.

The delay to indict was and is insane.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on August 02, 2023, 11:55:36 AM
Eh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2023, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on August 02, 2023, 11:55:36 AMEh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.


Actually, his Republican base is slowly eroding.  Polls indicate The Orange Ogre only has 60% Republican approval right now----we don't need all the conservatives, we just need enough not to vote to keep Biden in office.  COVID may have had an effect on the voter base as well.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on August 02, 2023, 01:36:50 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2023, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on August 02, 2023, 11:55:36 AMEh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.


Actually, his Republican base is slowly eroding.  Polls indicate The Orange Ogre only has 60% Republican approval right now----we don't need all the conservatives, we just need enough not to vote to keep Biden in office.  COVID may have had an effect on the voter base as well.

As I've said before, I don't think this helps Trump politically. He has never been a strong general election candidate and this will just weaken him further in that regard in 2024. The primary is different, of course, but even there I don't think that being indicted for crimes against democracy will improve his standing.

My concerns are more about the slippery slope of prosecuting former national executives and fostering still greater distrust of institutions and polarization. Not to mention that odds are on him evading significant punishment.

Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on August 02, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
The big effects on culture are what I worry about.  That, and some of the Trump cult will be incited to more violence.

Trump's most significant effect might be keeping DeSantis out of the White House.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Hegemony on August 03, 2023, 06:41:45 AM
We may have short-term big effects on culture, but the longer-term effect of not following the law would be a lot more damaging. Just letting someone get away with trying to subvert democracy — the very basis of the country, the thing that underlies all the other things — would basically undermine our system itself. You can't be prosecuted if you make too big a fuss? You can't be prosecuted if people get too upset about it? You can't be prosecuted if a lot of your followers are ardent? There should be only one bar to prosecution: the evidence is not strong enough to support it. Any other bar makes us a country where the rule of law no longer holds sway. Well, we'll have some upheaval. It's not the first time the country has seen upheaval in trying to hold to our principles. If we're going to be chickenshit about it, we head into the kind of country we do not want.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Ruralguy on August 03, 2023, 06:59:20 AM
It will probably be easier to get him on the documents or the Georgia thing.

I do believe he's totally guilty of...well, all of it. But as they say on all of the law tv shows, there's a difference between knowing something in your heart and mind and being able to prove it within the confines of the law. There's a pretty good case for crossing the line of legality in going from the bogus losing law suits (mostly legal, but somewhat questionable) to purposely promoting "alternate" (fake?) electors or worse (probably not legal in the way they were doing it). It will be a lot harder actually linking all of this to the actual riot/insurrection at the Capitol. Though, there may very well be someone who testified to saying "Lets stir them  up at the Capitol and delay this all or even get Congress to totally reverse the vote"   and then have Trump saying (by witness account or tape) "Yup, lets totally do that!"  To me its seems close, but no cigar. Still, I could be wrong.

Will it mater? Democrats have long ago dismissed Trump, and republicans who were going to dismiss him on principle have already done so. What's left are Republicans (or right leaning independents) who would only dump him because he's a loser, not because he did anything wrong. So, it remains to be seen how Republicans will really process a trial and especially a conviction on any of this. I suppose it could help rally Dems in the way COVID did several years ago, or abortion rights did last year. It doesn't change Dem minds, but it can change Dem level of engagment, including, say, donations to down ballot races, which may mean , say, having Congresscritter Frisch instead of Congrescritter Bobert.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on August 03, 2023, 07:58:31 AM
Being a "winner" or a "loser" is the key to the MAGA, QAnon, Proud Boys, etc. base. Trump makes them all feel like "winners." This is why they still support him.

Putting Trump behind bars now rather than sooner, won't get rid of the problem that got him elected in the first place and that is Trump is their social identifier (both individual and group)--he gives them a sense of belonging to a larger social group (a nation within a nation), he is agency, he validates who they are and makes it OK to express in public what otherwise they have to keep to themselves, but most of all, he makes them feel like "winners."

Not aggressively & not quickly pursuing indictments and convictions against Trump only amplifies and continues to amplify all the reasons that Trump became their Messiah in the first place. Every delay is a "win" for MAGA.

When Trump loses, QAnon, MAGA, armed right-wing white supremacists, etc. will feel like "losers" because of the way they have hitched their own sense of identity & agency to Trump and the Trump cult. So, Trump needs to lose over-and-over again-and-again in a public and humiliating fashion.

That's the only way out. Or should I say, it was the only way out. Because all the courts and prosecutors have dragged their feet, Trump has remained their social identifier, their agency, their sense of belonging, and their "winning." And, right before an election, this is how a presidential candidate's base needs to feel about a candidate, in order for the candidate to get elected. This is why DeSantis, who would otherwise be the perfect Republican candidate, can't get any traction.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Langue_doc on August 15, 2023, 04:32:03 AM
Georgia indicted him and his cronies on racketeering charges.

QuoteTrump Indicted in Georgia
Ex-President Accused of Leading Push to Overturn 2020 Vote
Donald Trump and 18 others were indicted by an Atlanta grand jury in a sweeping racketeering case. It is the fourth major criminal case facing Mr. Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/08/15/us/trump-indictment-georgia-election

The annotated indictment here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/08/15/us/politics/trump-georgia-indictment-annotated.html

The 41 indictments listed by category:
QuoteA grand jury in Fulton County, Ga., on Monday unveiled the fourth criminal indictment of former President Donald J. Trump. Like a federal indictment earlier this month, this one concerns Mr. Trump's efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss. But it differs in that it charges 18 other defendants who are alleged to have taken part in the scheme.

The 41 Counts in the Georgia Indictment
22 counts
Related to forgery or false documents and statements
8 counts
Related to soliciting or impersonating public officers
3 counts
Related to influencing witnesses
3 counts
Related to election fraud or defrauding the state
3 counts
Related to computer tampering
1 count
Related to racketeering
1 count
Related to perjury
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Ruralguy on August 15, 2023, 05:53:44 AM
This one, to me, always seemed like the best case against him just on the publicly available evidence, let alone the details.

Of course the other "Jan 6" charges are quite serious, but extraordinary cases require extraordinary evidence, most likely. I'm convinced that "45" did it, but I don't know as though there's really enough for a conviction.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 07:44:03 PM
I will always agree that no one is above the law, but has anyone seen the polling lately?

The DOJ has made a martyr out of Trump.  He might just get elected again.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on November 07, 2023, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 07:44:03 PMI will always agree that no one is above the law, but has anyone seen the polling lately?

The DOJ has made a martyr out of Trump.  He might just get elected again.

The indictments may have galvanized his base, but I don't think they are doing anything to help him with independents or right-leaning Democrats. What is helping him with these folks is that people are very unhappy with Biden and with the state of things in the US more generally. But the election is a year away, so I wouldn't read too much into any polls at this point.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on November 07, 2023, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 07:44:03 PMI will always agree that no one is above the law, but has anyone seen the polling lately?

The DOJ has made a martyr out of Trump.  He might just get elected again.

The indictments may have galvanized his base, but I don't think they are doing anything to help him with independents or right-leaning Democrats. What is helping him with these folks is that people are very unhappy with Biden and with the state of things in the US more generally. But the election is a year away, so I wouldn't read too much into any polls at this point.

Yeah, everything I've read says that people are unhappy with Biden----why I am not sure since he is doing a lot of stuff----but Trump has the headlines and X (formally Twitter) with fresh indignities to froth about.  Dislike of Biden + martyrdom of Trump seems like a very bad combo.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on November 07, 2023, 09:50:08 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on November 07, 2023, 08:26:39 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 07, 2023, 07:44:03 PMI will always agree that no one is above the law, but has anyone seen the polling lately?

The DOJ has made a martyr out of Trump.  He might just get elected again.

The indictments may have galvanized his base, but I don't think they are doing anything to help him with independents or right-leaning Democrats. What is helping him with these folks is that people are very unhappy with Biden and with the state of things in the US more generally. But the election is a year away, so I wouldn't read too much into any polls at this point.

Yeah, everything I've read says that people are unhappy with Biden----why I am not sure since he is doing a lot of stuff----but Trump has the headlines and X (formally Twitter) with fresh indignities to froth about.  Dislike of Biden + martyrdom of Trump seems like a very bad combo.

I doubt that being indicted for 91 felonies, and probably having been convicted of a few within the next year, will be an asset to Trump in a general election. And while it is a scary thought that he could be elected again, it is also good to keep in mind that he was a weak candidate in 2020, even before the insurrection and all the indictments.

Biden's polling problems are troubling, but Democrats did well in 2022 and have done well in special elections. Let's see if polls look a little better in 6 months or so as the economy continues to recover and Trump's campaign of craziness heats up.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: nebo113 on November 08, 2023, 07:04:41 AM
Virginia Gov. Younkin, MAGA with a smile and good hair, lost bigly yesterday.  DEMS now control House and Senate, and won many local races. 
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 08, 2023, 07:16:25 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on November 08, 2023, 07:04:41 AMVirginia Gov. Younkin, MAGA with a smile and good hair, lost bigly yesterday.  DEMS now control House and Senate, and won many local races. 

Tee hee.  Yeah, and Ohio just passed an amendment which adds abortion rights to their constitution against strong Republican opposition, and Beshear won in Kentucky.

Maybe I am just being swept into the age of paranoia, because I do not see how Trump is electable, but I just hate to see the big orange baboon get center stage before any kind of election.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: waterboy on November 08, 2023, 12:08:55 PM
And as we all know, sometimes the electoral college "trumps" the popular vote.  It will again be very close, jail or not.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: lightning on November 08, 2023, 04:01:33 PM
I don't trust polls.

No one should worry about polls, especially a year out.

It's more important to mobilize and get the vote out, than to worry about the score one year out. There are casual voters who will crawl through glass and fire just to vote against Trump.

It's the polls that gave Democrats a lack of urgency in 2016. If anything, recent polling should give Democrats a good kick in the rear and not take anything for granted.
Title: Re: Should the Justice Department indict Trump?
Post by: Wahoo Redux on November 08, 2023, 05:13:55 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 08, 2023, 04:01:33 PMIf anything, recent polling should give Democrats a good kick in the rear and not take anything for granted.

From your keyboard to God's control panel.