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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: kaysixteen on December 26, 2022, 08:30:26 PM

Title: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on December 26, 2022, 08:30:26 PM
So I went into the local B&N today, two towns over, in a much wealthier university town.   I do not go in there very often, and when I go, mostly it is to see what books I might like to get from the library, and take author info down.   I had perhaps thought that there might be some after Xmas sales today, but the amount of bargain books was actually quite minuscule.  And when I do go in, I only look through the shelves for book types/ genres I read in, which is less than half of what is even available.  Outside of two fiction genres, these are only non-fic ones.  Now it has been years since I have been impressed by the place-- as far back as ten years back a student at my old Christian school gave me a $5 gift cert there, and it took me at least 45 minutes to find something I felt like buying.   But today it dawned on me as I was looking through various sections, esp but not exclusively the 'current events' one, is anyone at B&N HQ actually reading these books before agreeing to have them put on their sales shelves?   Doing fact checks and other forms of vetting?  IOW, some of the astoundingly bad slopola here, mostly but not exclusively from a hard-right, Trumpanzee perspective, defies justification, or does B&N just put anything that they think they could sell on the shelves?  I recall one book, written by a Dave (?) Rubin, of whom I had never heard, a hard-right author who was, according to the book jacket blurb, , blathering on about the hideousness of woke progressivism (all the weirder from a gay man who is living in Los Angeles with his husband, something Trump and Co probably would not be eager to facilitate), and said blurb notes that he has a highly rated Youtube podcast.   So why is it that anyone would trust the insights of a guy with a Youtube podcast?  But, of course, many of the non-fic books sold there demonstrate the reality that many Americans do not read well, lack critical thinking skills as well as a solid knowledge basis, so perhaps this is not so surprising.  Still, am I wrong to suggest that B&N ought to exercise at least some responsibilty not to put alternative facts insanity up for sale?
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: lightning on December 27, 2022, 01:38:49 AM
I have some spare time over the holidays, so I was thinking of going to B&N tomorrow, after some bank and post office errands.

I am like you in that even after I spend a lot of time randomly browsing, I find very few items that interest me, at a B&N. Honestly, I mainly go for the coffee, wi-fi, and a place to hang out.

I stay away from the politics and current events section, but I would not be surprised if they sell garbage that sells. After all, B&N has to make a buck, somehow.

I would not be surprised either, if the people that decide on which books to stock, don't read the books before ordering a whole bunch and putting them on the shelves. Most of the print that gets sold to customers doesn't actually get read, once the books get to the customers' homes.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Hegemony on December 27, 2022, 05:23:40 AM
The answer is that B&N keeps statistics of the purchases of the reading public in its various locations, and it stocks the books that these statistics suggest will sell best. They are not in the business of reporting the facts or remaining objective — they are not a news outlet — they are in the business of selling books. Publishing is always on a knife-edge of profitability, and brick-and-mortar bookstores are closing everywhere because the book-buying public buys from Amazon. So in no way is B&N going to fail to stock books that might actually sell.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 27, 2022, 07:35:38 AM
Nobody at B&N has or will have read them (they stock far too many books, and too many new ones too quickly, for them all to have been "vetted" by an employee or three). And I'd be willing to bet that most of the people who buy the books in question don't read them, either. They like the idea of reading them, or of being thought to have read them, or of giving them to someone, and they might skim a chapter or two, but that will be it for the vast majority.

It's too bad, really, because I would like it to be the case that a bookstore carefully curates what it sells. But doing so would clearly get in the way of profits, and that's all a chain like B&N cares about.

I have an idle fantasy of one day opening a used book store stocked entirely with books I've read and loved. I wouldn't turn a profit, but it would be nice to be able to guide people to the good stuff.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: RatGuy on December 27, 2022, 07:41:33 AM
Slightly off-topic -- BN has 50% off all board games today only. Very few of them push unpalatable political agendas, so why not take advantage of the sale?
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: lightning on December 27, 2022, 07:42:30 AM
This might be a sign of the times (or maybe that I'm old). I went to B&N the other day to buy a couple of paper calendars--one for my wall and one small pocket calendar. The selection was meager. They used to have a really large selection.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: apl68 on December 27, 2022, 08:14:50 AM
Public libraries have to stock what the public demands too.  Whatever that may be.

I don't notice B&N's bargain section being especially dominated by current political rabble-rousers.  You see it, all right, but mostly the B&Ns that I've visited have nonfiction on perennial subjects like World War II, Harley-Davidson motorcycles, airplanes, condensed guides to this and that, and books on the Templars and such.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: lightning on December 27, 2022, 12:13:36 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 27, 2022, 07:41:33 AM
Slightly off-topic -- BN has 50% off all board games today only. Very few of them push unpalatable political agendas, so why not take advantage of the sale?

I went to Barnes and Noble. OMG!!!! I have never seen such a concentration of shoppers. I left really fast.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: secundem_artem on December 27, 2022, 01:20:06 PM
I have not set foot in a physical bookstore in years.  I read the NY Times book reviews and order what I need from Amazon.  I don't read much fiction but I do find reviews of authors I like - e.g. Jonathon Franzen and Gary Shteyngart - and order them direct. Or, I order direct from academic publishers when they send me catalogues for work related reading.

If I come across a movie or TV show based on an interesting book, I'll get that.  Just finished White Noise by Don DeLillo and am looking forward to the Netflix release of the movie this week.  I might look into some Neil Gaiman having seen a couple of things on Netflix based on his work.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Wahoo Redux on December 27, 2022, 04:49:45 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 26, 2022, 08:30:26 PM
said blurb notes that he has a highly rated Youtube podcast.   So why is it that anyone would trust the insights of a guy with a Youtube podcast? 

That's the kids.  Gen X on is very attuned to online media.  YouTube Bloggers have a lot of name recognition.  I think some of them are good, but I have never actually watched any of them.

I very seldom go to B&N.  Their selection is good for recent publications, magazines, and nonfiction but meagre otherwise.  Anything outside the mainstream I easily find online, often for free as a PDF if it is a classic.

I do like perusing their sales items, which I assume come from a warehouse somewhere.

I do like the café, although these are pretty standard.  The one thing I will say about B&N is that when my nephew randomly said, "Gosh, I wish I could read [big pop novel]" right before Christmas, and Amazon was going to take five days to get it here, I hopped in the car, aimed it at B&N, and, voila, there the novel was.  The system worked!

I really, really, really miss the independent and used bookstores, however.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: hmaria1609 on December 28, 2022, 01:11:22 PM
I shop online and in store with Barnes & Noble. I got on the mailing list some years back because I ordered something to be delivered to the store.  They had a two floor store with roomy cafe seating in DC but it's long gone. Commercial lease got too high! I enjoyed going there after work.

There' still one at the mall in my town however I've noticed the selection has slimmed down on the shelves. Also they rearranged sections in the store.  Also, selection varies by location.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 01:23:59 PM
Anybody remember Borders? A palace for books!

We -- the customers, readers -- didn't like Borders' enough to let it survive. I'd always thought B&N a distant second.

We have met the enemy, and they is us.
                                              --Pogo
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Anon1787 on December 28, 2022, 02:18:57 PM
B&N is the only national bricks-and-mortar book retailer left in a shrinking market. Unlike rich tech companies, B&N doesn't have a lot of spare cash to hire people to vet books for facts. But if B&N adopted the idiotic practice of trying to be a major gatekeeper, it should start by vetting the claims of religious texts, which have far more influence on people than some guy with a Youtube channel.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 02:23:10 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 28, 2022, 02:18:57 PM
B&N is the only national bricks-and-mortar book retailer left in a shrinking market. Unlike rich tech companies, B&N doesn't have a lot of spare cash to hire people to vet books for facts. But if B&N adopted the idiotic practice of trying to be a major gatekeeper, it should start by vetting the claims of religious texts, which have far more influence on people than some guy with a Youtube channel.

Vet, vet? Hell, we do the vetting! If we don't like it, we don't buy it. End of story.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Parasaurolophus on December 28, 2022, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 02:23:10 PM

Vet, vet? Hell, we do the vetting! If we don't like it, we don't buy it. End of story.

They may not teach this in business school any more, but typically you must buy the product (/book) before you can use (/read) it.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 02:43:31 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 28, 2022, 02:33:32 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 02:23:10 PM

Vet, vet? Hell, we do the vetting! If we don't like it, we don't buy it. End of story.

They may not teach this in business school any more, but typically you must buy the product (/book) before you can use (/read) it.

And you don't buy like products anymore from a moronic retailer.

The marketing problem is called versioning, first formulated by an economist. In the book trade, it's been solved.

Amazon gives you samples of the product on line.

Borders let you sit in places thumbing through the books, including their own cafes.

B&N partnered with Starbucks for the cafes, and one could peruse there, too.

Maybe Borders went down the tubes on account they had inferior cafes.

Look, if there's a problem making profits, somebody will find a solution, and then another, and another, ... . :-)
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: secundem_artem on December 28, 2022, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 01:23:59 PM
Anybody remember Borders? A palace for books!

We -- the customers, readers -- didn't like Borders' enough to let it survive. I'd always thought B&N a distant second.

We have met the enemy, and they is us.
                                              --Pogo

As I read heard the story, at the dawn of the internet age, Borders was trying to figure out how to move into e-commerce.  Some bright spark in the company recommended they turn their e-commerce sales over to Amazon.  The Borders folks were pleased as punch they had solved a notty business problem and at little cost to them.  Amazon left the same meeting room looking like the cat that swallowed the canary. 

Not sure if this is apocryphal but it sounds believable to me.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 28, 2022, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 28, 2022, 01:23:59 PM
Anybody remember Borders? A palace for books!

We -- the customers, readers -- didn't like Borders' enough to let it survive. I'd always thought B&N a distant second.

We have met the enemy, and they is us.
                                              --Pogo

As I read heard the story, at the dawn of the internet age, Borders was trying to figure out how to move into e-commerce.  Some bright spark in the company recommended they turn their e-commerce sales over to Amazon.  The Borders folks were pleased as punch they had solved a notty business problem and at little cost to them.  Amazon left the same meeting room looking like the cat that swallowed the canary. 

Not sure if this is apocryphal but it sounds believable to me.

That story describes only a part of the problem. https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/How-Amazon-factor-killed-retailers-like-6378619.php (https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/How-Amazon-factor-killed-retailers-like-6378619.php)

Look, I wanna' run a railroad, not a bookstore, like silly Jeff Bezos! :-)

Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: hmaria1609 on December 29, 2022, 01:51:45 PM
Yep, I'm another who remembers Borders.  It was a bummer to see them close.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Larimar on December 30, 2022, 05:27:11 AM
I actually worked for Borders while I was in grad school. For a while it was a pretty good job for where I was in life, and the employee discount on books was very nice! Then the company started getting more corporatized and whittled away at the little employee perks that gave the store character and made us feel valued, like the monthly 'employee picks' shelf and getting to specialize in our favorite genres when it came to keeping the sections stocked and neat. Management never noticed morale slowly but steadily sinking. By the time I left, I'd gone from being in charge of the Fiction & Literature section to being vulnerable to having to wash dishes in the cafe. Despite this, I was still sad when they went under.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: ergative on December 30, 2022, 07:57:36 AM
Here's an encouraging discussion of Barnes and Noble (https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/what-can-we-learn-from-barnes-and), which apparently has been doing some good things since Daunt bought it.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: larryc on January 02, 2023, 11:16:49 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 30, 2022, 07:57:36 AM
Here's an encouraging discussion of Barnes and Noble (https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/what-can-we-learn-from-barnes-and), which apparently has been doing some good things since Daunt bought it.

I was about to share that same link. Apparently a new CEO has stopped the slide at B&N by restoring the focus on books and giving local store employees more say over the inventory and displays at each store. They are even opening new locations.

Independent bookstores have been doing a lot better in recent years, we have at least four in my town. I have not been in a B&N in years, but I see that my town still has one. Perhaps I will check it out.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 02, 2023, 07:42:45 PM
Sorry I have not yet gotten round to returning to this thread I started last week.  I am wondering exactly what level of social responsibility B&N execs (and, for that matter, proprietors of mom and pop indie bookstores) have to take reasonable steps to prevent obvious slop from hitting the shelves of their stores?  IOW, public librarians have a responsibility, which they ordinarily take very seriously, , to prevent inaccurate material from being purchased by the library and going onto their shelves with formal library call numbers assigned, etc. (I use this caveat because many PLs, such as the one here in Rusty City), have a shelf where the library stocks donated literature that they would never buy, and thus give official library sanction (essentially equals recommendation, promotion, vouching for the accuracy of the info therein, etc.), because most librarians will also not want to be exactly censoring such material, no matter how awful it may well be.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on January 02, 2023, 08:02:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 02, 2023, 07:42:45 PM
Sorry I have not yet gotten round to returning to this thread I started last week.  I am wondering exactly what level of social responsibility B&N execs (and, for that matter, proprietors of mom and pop indie bookstores) have to take reasonable steps to prevent obvious slop from hitting the shelves of their stores?  IOW, public librarians have a responsibility, which they ordinarily take very seriously, , to prevent inaccurate material from being purchased by the library and going onto their shelves with formal library call numbers assigned, etc. (I use this caveat because many PLs, such as the one here in Rusty City), have a shelf where the library stocks donated literature that they would never buy, and thus give official library sanction (essentially equals recommendation, promotion, vouching for the accuracy of the info therein, etc.), because most librarians will also not want to be exactly censoring such material, no matter how awful it may well be.
Quote
steps to prevent obvious slop from hitting the shelves of their stores

Slop obvious to whom?

No worries, the search for profits guarantees that slop will not be put onto the shelves of a particular local bookstore, for such would pollute the rest of the stock of books in the store, and drive away some customers!

That taste will vary from store to store, as the successful decentralization strategy at B&N shows.

People differ.

Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 02, 2023, 08:20:50 PM
I think you know what I am talking about, which has more or less nothing to do with 'taste', as in customer X prefers a BK whopper vs the expensive burger at an overpriced sit-down restaurant, but rather objective 'facts'.   B&N can and should, at least IMO, vet 'non-fiction' books it sells for facts, and refuse to sell 'slop' that peddles 'alternative facts' (one of the books I saw last week was in fact the memoirs of Kellyanne Conway, aka Madame Alternative Facts.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: dismalist on January 02, 2023, 08:58:20 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 02, 2023, 08:20:50 PM
I think you know what I am talking about, which has more or less nothing to do with 'taste', as in customer X prefers a BK whopper vs the expensive burger at an overpriced sit-down restaurant, but rather objective 'facts'.   B&N can and should, at least IMO, vet 'non-fiction' books it sells for facts, and refuse to sell 'slop' that peddles 'alternative facts' (one of the books I saw last week was in fact the memoirs of Kellyanne Conway, aka Madame Alternative Facts.

Vet non-fiction books?

Hell, declare them fiction! :-)

As I said upthread, it's the customers that do the vetting.

Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: apl68 on January 03, 2023, 08:22:46 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 02, 2023, 07:42:45 PM
Sorry I have not yet gotten round to returning to this thread I started last week.  I am wondering exactly what level of social responsibility B&N execs (and, for that matter, proprietors of mom and pop indie bookstores) have to take reasonable steps to prevent obvious slop from hitting the shelves of their stores?  IOW, public librarians have a responsibility, which they ordinarily take very seriously, , to prevent inaccurate material from being purchased by the library and going onto their shelves with formal library call numbers assigned, etc. (I use this caveat because many PLs, such as the one here in Rusty City), have a shelf where the library stocks donated literature that they would never buy, and thus give official library sanction (essentially equals recommendation, promotion, vouching for the accuracy of the info therein, etc.), because most librarians will also not want to be exactly censoring such material, no matter how awful it may well be.

Well...it's complicated.  We do try to make sure that we have the most authoritative available works on different topics.  We try, when providing reference assistance, to steer patrons in the direction of work by people who know what they're talking about.  That usually anymore means web sites, rather than books, since most patrons asking for reference want quick answers--they don't want to read a whole book on anything.  So, we point them to WebMD, say, not to the Herbalife sales site, or somebody who will sell them magic charms made of crystals.  Our staff members can tell plenty of stories about their efforts to keep patrons, especially older ones, from falling for various kinds of scams.

But, we're obligated to purchase what the public wants.  If people want books on alternative medicine, or crackpot political tracts they've heard about on Fox news, then we have to furnish them. 

I've been thinking about starting a new thread that would address these sorts of concerns in the library world.  Libraries are getting pulled into the culture wars--and there have been developments within the library profession itself that have made this more likely.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: AmLitHist on January 03, 2023, 08:29:51 AM
The whole idea of vetting makes me uncomfortable. For what purpose would the material be vetted?  To keep people from reading untrue/objectionable ideas? And why is the bookseller's idea of what is true/untrue, acceptable/objectionable, something I as a customer should accept? Isn't the potential logical extension of that something like "don't say gay" or book banning? I don't think that's slippery-slope reasoning, necessarily.

Who gets to decide what I as an individual can read? I can decide what to spend (or not spend) my money (and time) on; that's not the job of a corporate or individual bookseller, and I'm loath to relinquish that power. Of course, I know that such vetting already exists in places like Christian bookstores, as an example; I exercise my choice by declining to shop there because they've made choices about what I should/not be able to read via the selections they offer.

I might well, in fact, buy the same books that a Christian bookstore offers, but I'll do so from more "open" or broad-based offerings at other retailers. I consciously and specifically patronize those stores who leave the choice of what I read up to me, rather than financing the places who believe it's their mission/job/business model to try to take those choices away from me.

Finally, it sort of seems like the entire idea of a bookstore refusing to sell "slop" (however that is defined) isn't really a meaningful step toward a more educated, informed citizenry in today's world. The current and growing availability of misinformation online (particularly via very effectively crafted and targeted social media), coupled with spotty critical reading and critical thinking skills among Americans as a whole, seem to me to take a lot of the wind out of the sails of the need for carefully curated bookstore offerings, and of books in general. If the past few years have taught us anything, I'd think it would be that an insistence on objective truth doesn't carry the weight with the masses that it used to (and still does for many of us).

Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: apl68 on January 03, 2023, 08:46:43 AM
I understand what kay is talking about when he speaks of "vetting."  Bookstores have to have some kind of standards regarding quality and so forth.  So do libraries.  Neither type of institution has unlimited space or resources, so we have to pick and choose.  We pick what we will acquire, and we pick what we will make a special effort to promote.  If you want to have absolutely everything there is out there at your fingertips, no choosing or judgement, then go to Amazon.  And good luck finding exactly what you want in all those oceans of mess, if you're uncertain of exactly what that is.

Bookstores and libraries offer curated selections of what's available.  That's part of what we do.  It's an essential part of our service.  I take some exception to the singling out of particular types of bookstores for doing this, as if they're doing something wrong.  Every bookstore or library that any one of us here has ever visited has curated its offerings.  Some may simply be more specialized in their offerings, depending on what sort of community they're trying to serve.  All of them have to face decisions, not always easy ones, regarding what they will offer.  Most librarians, and I'm sure bookstore managers, have their ideas about what they'd like to offer the public, or think that the public needs.  And then they learn that the public often wants something very different. 

I understand kay's sense that the standards of what bookstores and libraries are prepared to offer have been declining in recent years.  But I think that speaks to broader cultural issues that neither bookstores nor libraries can "fix."
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: paultuttle on January 03, 2023, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: apl68 on January 03, 2023, 08:46:43 AM
I understand what kay is talking about when he speaks of "vetting."  Bookstores have to have some kind of standards regarding quality and so forth.  So do libraries.  Neither type of institution has unlimited space or resources, so we have to pick and choose.  We pick what we will acquire, and we pick what we will make a special effort to promote.  If you want to have absolutely everything there is out there at your fingertips, no choosing or judgement, then go to Amazon.  And good luck finding exactly what you want in all those oceans of mess, if you're uncertain of exactly what that is.

Bookstores and libraries offer curated selections of what's available.  That's part of what we do.  It's an essential part of our service.  I take some exception to the singling out of particular types of bookstores for doing this, as if they're doing something wrong.  Every bookstore or library that any one of us here has ever visited has curated its offerings.  Some may simply be more specialized in their offerings, depending on what sort of community they're trying to serve.  All of them have to face decisions, not always easy ones, regarding what they will offer.  Most librarians, and I'm sure bookstore managers, have their ideas about what they'd like to offer the public, or think that the public needs.  And then they learn that the public often wants something very different. 

I understand kay's sense that the standards of what bookstores and libraries are prepared to offer have been declining in recent years.  But I think that speaks to broader cultural issues that neither bookstores nor libraries can "fix."

100% agree/on point/cogent analysis.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 09, 2023, 11:13:02 PM
Vetting is necessary.  Really, it is.   Whether it is a library, or a for-profit bookstore, those selecting the books do have a responsibility, ethically and morally, to prevent books that present wholesale quantities of factually inaccurate info from being proffered to the public.  Otherwise we might as well have that tome from Alex Jones on the shelf.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Hegemony on January 10, 2023, 02:23:53 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 09, 2023, 11:13:02 PM
Vetting is necessary.  Really, it is.   Whether it is a library, or a for-profit bookstore, those selecting the books do have a responsibility, ethically and morally, to prevent books that present wholesale quantities of factually inaccurate info from being proffered to the public.  Otherwise we might as well have that tome from Alex Jones on the shelf.

Kay16, it sounds as if you have a problem with capitalism.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Wahoo Redux on January 10, 2023, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 10, 2023, 02:23:53 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 09, 2023, 11:13:02 PM
Vetting is necessary.  Really, it is.   Whether it is a library, or a for-profit bookstore, those selecting the books do have a responsibility, ethically and morally, to prevent books that present wholesale quantities of factually inaccurate info from being proffered to the public.  Otherwise we might as well have that tome from Alex Jones on the shelf.

Kay16, it sounds as if you have a problem with capitalism.

I think kay just wants to control us for our own good.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: Anselm on January 10, 2023, 11:40:27 AM
I don't want my books vetted by people who spend their entire lives in Manhattan.  I remember lots of disinfo and trash in the bookstores in the 1970's like Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts, Dianetics and books about pyramid power. 
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 10, 2023, 10:56:39 PM
Unfettered capitalism is as far removed from scripture as soviet communism was.

I am trying to figure out who would have a problem, really, with having an ethics policy which would suggest that bookstores should refuse to stock 'literature' that is chock-full of demonstrably false information, when vetted by the same standards that say, the Encyclopedia Britannica uses.   Certainly public libraries do have this obligation.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: bacardiandlime on January 11, 2023, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 10, 2023, 10:56:39 PM
I am trying to figure out who would have a problem, really, with having an ethics policy which would suggest that bookstores should refuse to stock 'literature' that is chock-full of demonstrably false information, when vetted by the same standards that say, the Encyclopedia Britannica uses.   Certainly public libraries do have this obligation.

I would have a huge problem with some apparatchik vetting what I'm allowed to read.

Public libraries carry Mein Kampf. They also have books abour vampires, ghosts and chupacabra.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: apl68 on January 11, 2023, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on January 11, 2023, 03:04:07 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 10, 2023, 10:56:39 PM
I am trying to figure out who would have a problem, really, with having an ethics policy which would suggest that bookstores should refuse to stock 'literature' that is chock-full of demonstrably false information, when vetted by the same standards that say, the Encyclopedia Britannica uses.   Certainly public libraries do have this obligation.

I would have a huge problem with some apparatchik vetting what I'm allowed to read.

Public libraries carry Mein Kampf. They also have books abour vampires, ghosts and chupacabra.

Well, I have to admit that our collection is kind of sparse on information about chupacabras (I can think of maybe four books here that mention them).  We've got a fair amount on ghosts, and a good bit of fiction with vampires, though.  What can I say?  We're a small library.  We can't have thorough coverage of everything.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: sonoamused on January 11, 2023, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 26, 2022, 08:30:26 PM
So I went into the local B&N today, two towns over, in a much wealthier university town.   I do not go in there very often, and when I go, mostly it is to see what books I might like to get from the library, and take author info down.   I had perhaps thought that there might be some after Xmas sales today, but the amount of bargain books was actually quite minuscule.  And when I do go in, I only look through the shelves for book types/ genres I read in, which is less than half of what is even available.  Outside of two fiction genres, these are only non-fic ones.  Now it has been years since I have been impressed by the place-- as far back as ten years back a student at my old Christian school gave me a $5 gift cert there, and it took me at least 45 minutes to find something I felt like buying.   But today it dawned on me as I was looking through various sections, esp but not exclusively the 'current events' one, is anyone at B&N HQ actually reading these books before agreeing to have them put on their sales shelves?   Doing fact checks and other forms of vetting?  IOW, some of the astoundingly bad slopola here, mostly but not exclusively from a hard-right, Trumpanzee perspective, defies justification, or does B&N just put anything that they think they could sell on the shelves?  I recall one book, written by a Dave (?) Rubin, of whom I had never heard, a hard-right author who was, according to the book jacket blurb, , blathering on about the hideousness of woke progressivism (all the weirder from a gay man who is living in Los Angeles with his husband, something Trump and Co probably would not be eager to facilitate), and said blurb notes that he has a highly rated Youtube podcast.   So why is it that anyone would trust the insights of a guy with a Youtube podcast?  But, of course, many of the non-fic books sold there demonstrate the reality that many Americans do not read well, lack critical thinking skills as well as a solid knowledge basis, so perhaps this is not so surprising.  Still, am I wrong to suggest that B&N ought to exercise at least some responsibilty not to put alternative facts insanity up for sale?

No, if you want a curated selection of books, you go to a library.  If you want a selection of books based on what people are currently reading based on a large scale book jobber you go to a chain bookstore.     Granted the selection will change a little by area since each bookstore will do some large scale returns so they eventually only have "x" number of copies on their shelf of a given title at a time, so in a given area if (x) author doesn't sell, they may only have 1 copy of a title there.

But publishing has always been if you get an idea out there, someone will sell it.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: AmLitHist on January 11, 2023, 12:13:14 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 10, 2023, 10:56:39 PM
Unfettered capitalism is as far removed from scripture as soviet communism was.

I am trying to figure out who would have a problem, really, with having an ethics policy which would suggest that bookstores should refuse to stock 'literature' that is chock-full of demonstrably false information, when vetted by the same standards that say, the Encyclopedia Britannica uses.   Certainly public libraries do have this obligation.

So, trying to follow your logic: where does that leave the Bible? Where can I find demonstrable truth that an inexplicable power created everything from nothing--and in six days?  Where is there demonstrable truth that one man resuscitated another man who had been dead in the grave for days?  Where is the demonstrable truth that a man killed by crucifixion lived again in the flesh--or that Saul had the Damascus road experience exactly as recorded--or any number of other bit s of "literature" contained in the Bible?

Yes, I'm being a smartass, but I'm also asking a serious question.  Who gets to decide what gets a pass just because someone (the bookstore, the librarian, the individual, the community) believes they have the corner on capital-T "Truth," as opposed to what doesn't pass that test? 

I can be responsible for making the choices of what I will and won't read (and believe). My problem arises when someone else presumes to make those choices for me, effectively removing my ability to make my own choice.

Of course, the issue of what bookstores carry is (should be/must be) driven by economics/capitalism--just as they can't/don't have to have everything available for me, I'm equally free to shop/not shop there.  The issue gets more theoretical and muddier for me when we talk about libraries, and not just the "we can't afford to buy everything" aspect, but more specifically, "we have to protect you/your kids/the community" tone of it.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 11, 2023, 09:32:58 PM
I do see your smartass argument wrt the unscientific religious teachings in the Bible.  But the Bible, and other religious/ spiritual books, are not what  am talking about here, and you know this.

What I am talking about is books like those propaganda pieces put out by the likes of cretinous louts such as Alex Jones and Glenn Beck.   Amongst others.   Take COVID denialism and quack medical teachings, for instance, which killed thousands unnecessarily.   I am no libertarian capitalist, to think that caveat emptor should rule here, and I will not apologize for saying that the Barnes and Nobles of the world should vet crap like this before they expose it to the public.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: ergative on January 21, 2023, 04:13:03 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 11, 2023, 09:32:58 PM
I do see your smartass argument wrt the unscientific religious teachings in the Bible.  But the Bible, and other religious/ spiritual books, are not what  am talking about here, and you know this.

What I am talking about is books like those propaganda pieces put out by the likes of cretinous louts such as Alex Jones and Glenn Beck.   Amongst others.   Take COVID denialism and quack medical teachings, for instance, which killed thousands unnecessarily.   I am no libertarian capitalist, to think that caveat emptor should rule here, and I will not apologize for saying that the Barnes and Nobles of the world should vet crap like this before they expose it to the public.

This is rather why we need lots of independent bookstores. It's the job of the bookshop to determine which portion of the buying market they want to cater to, and which portion they want to exclude. Bookshops that prominently feature Alex Jones and Glenn Beck titles will not get my business, but will get other people's business. Bookstores that prominently feature titles by Henry Louis Gates Jr and Alison Bechdel will get the inverse set of patrons. Rather than trying to enforce some degree of literary taste or moral truth or however you want to frame it on one massive institution like B&N, we need to support a multiplicity of smaller institutions so that people can go where they can find what they want.

Then you don't need to see people you disagree with, and so you don't feel the need to mandate what they're allowed to read.
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: kaysixteen on January 21, 2023, 11:53:41 PM
Up to a point this is true, but only up to a point.... are there no works of 'fact' that are so dangerously and objectively false such as to mean that they should not be purveyed, and those doing so should be censured?
Title: Re: Barnes and Noble
Post by: ergative on January 22, 2023, 05:51:31 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 21, 2023, 11:53:41 PM
Up to a point this is true, but only up to a point.... are there no works of 'fact' that are so dangerously and objectively false such as to mean that they should not be purveyed, and those doing so should be censured?

In principle, sure. The problem is that not everyone shares my principles. If we've seen anything with covid, it's that no matter how dangerously and objectively false something is, there will be a substantial portion of the population and government that think it's just dandy.

In practice, there is no good way way to define where that line is, and so it will just become another football in the political censorship culture wars. Oddly, I think that Twitter adding its automatic cautionary warnings to misinformation about covid and election fraud claims was quite a good compromise: don't censor the speech, but stick a big ol' asterisk on it. But Twitter is a private company. For public commerce, you'd need some public organization running the asterisking system, so in the end, which claims get flagged is going to turn into a political culture war too.

Of course, private demonstrations of censure are a different matter. If you have the time and effort to protest the existence of the Glenn Beck (TM) Opinion Bookshop, then God be with you. But that's probably not going to have much effect, because the people who like such shops are going to dismiss you as a woke snowflake. And it may well backfire, but drawing the attention of people who'd never heard of it before (the Streisand effect).