Author Topic: Cancelling Dr. Seuss  (Read 35234 times)

ciao_yall

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1050 on: January 24, 2023, 10:11:58 AM »

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

There is no neutral stance in this case. The teacher listens to the student's concerns and asks what she is concluding. Regardless of what the student decides (I should keep wearing the hijab vs. I will not wear it in school) silence and support implies agreement.

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1051 on: January 24, 2023, 11:29:00 AM »

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

Are there specific topics the teacher should be "neutral" about, or is it just any issue that the student has that a teacher should be "neutral" about?
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kaysixteen

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1052 on: January 24, 2023, 11:04:00 PM »
There is of course no epidemic of trans identifying kids being offed by their parents, but various posters here have raised concerns for what might happen in terms of physical violence, should teacher/ school inform parents of a kids' choice to id as trans.   If any concrete threats are made, call cops or social services.   But this would of course be the case for any potential thing a teacher might tell parent about, concerning kid, that parent does not like: I had a headmaster rescind a (justly deserved) punishment he had decided to impose on a kid, for repeated misbehavior in my class, because he told me he feared what the child's father would do to her when he was informed.  It was probably a bad decision on my part not to do something concrete in this situation, ten years ago.  'Disowning' is another issue entirely.. there are consequences of actions, and if a parent 'disowns' a kid in this situation (BTW, what exactly does it mean to 'disown' an underage kid anyhow?), and what would end up happening would almost certainly end up worse, should parent not be told.

Now are we all in agreement that if a (likely mentally ill) parent attempted to force trans behavior choices on a child who did not self-id as trans, that this would be child abuse which should be reported to child services?

Wahoo Redux

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1053 on: January 25, 2023, 07:52:16 AM »
Now are we all in agreement that if a (likely mentally ill) parent attempted to force trans behavior choices on a child who did not self-id as trans, that this would be child abuse which should be reported to child services?

Just remember that your got'cha moments tend to fall flat, my friend.
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marshwiggle

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1054 on: January 26, 2023, 05:03:36 AM »

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

There is no neutral stance in this case. The teacher listens to the student's concerns and asks what she is concluding. Regardless of what the student decides (I should keep wearing the hijab vs. I will not wear it in school) silence and support implies agreement.


Are there specific topics the teacher should be "neutral" about, or is it just any issue that the student has that a teacher should be "neutral" about?

The primary responsibility of the teachers is students' education. Furthermore, the teacher should be concerned with the education of all of the students. Anything which distracts students in the classroom from focus on their education is bad.

Whenever a teacher is "non-neutral" about any topic on which students may have varying opinions, and varying degrees of passion, the issue will become more of a distraction for those students who are passionate about it, regardless of their opinion on it.

So, for the hijab example. By the teacher taking a side, either supporting the student's not wearing the hijab, or by trying to support the parents' expectation that she wear it,  other students observing will be encouraged to speculate.

If the teacher supports the student in not wearing it.
  • Does this mean she thinks Islam (or perhaps all organized religion) is ridiculous and/or oppressive?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents are generally out of touch, and (most?) teenage rebellion is good?

If the teacher supports the parents' wish that the student wear it.
  • Does this mean she thinks society is missing the authority of  organized religion?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents should always be obeyed, and (most?) teenage rebellion is bad?

These speculations are going to distract students, regardless of whether they actually reflect the teacher's views or not.

By taking an explicitly and intentionally *neutral stance, the teacher reinforces the idea that her priority (and the priority of the students in the classroom) is their education.

(Sample response: "The school dress code doesn't require or forbid hijabs, so anything not part of the school dress code is not my business." Note that response is equally valid whatever "side" of the issue the teacher is on.)
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Kron3007

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1055 on: January 26, 2023, 06:08:49 AM »
There is of course no epidemic of trans identifying kids being offed by their parents, but various posters here have raised concerns for what might happen in terms of physical violence, should teacher/ school inform parents of a kids' choice to id as trans.   If any concrete threats are made, call cops or social services.   But this would of course be the case for any potential thing a teacher might tell parent about, concerning kid, that parent does not like: I had a headmaster rescind a (justly deserved) punishment he had decided to impose on a kid, for repeated misbehavior in my class, because he told me he feared what the child's father would do to her when he was informed.  It was probably a bad decision on my part not to do something concrete in this situation, ten years ago.  'Disowning' is another issue entirely.. there are consequences of actions, and if a parent 'disowns' a kid in this situation (BTW, what exactly does it mean to 'disown' an underage kid anyhow?), and what would end up happening would almost certainly end up worse, should parent not be told.

Now are we all in agreement that if a (likely mentally ill) parent attempted to force trans behavior choices on a child who did not self-id as trans, that this would be child abuse which should be reported to child services?

Yes, I agree that a parent forcing their prefered gender identity on their child is in appropriate and should not be supported.  Thanks for your support.

Kron3007

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1056 on: January 26, 2023, 06:13:14 AM »

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

There is no neutral stance in this case. The teacher listens to the student's concerns and asks what she is concluding. Regardless of what the student decides (I should keep wearing the hijab vs. I will not wear it in school) silence and support implies agreement.


Are there specific topics the teacher should be "neutral" about, or is it just any issue that the student has that a teacher should be "neutral" about?

The primary responsibility of the teachers is students' education. Furthermore, the teacher should be concerned with the education of all of the students. Anything which distracts students in the classroom from focus on their education is bad.

Whenever a teacher is "non-neutral" about any topic on which students may have varying opinions, and varying degrees of passion, the issue will become more of a distraction for those students who are passionate about it, regardless of their opinion on it.

So, for the hijab example. By the teacher taking a side, either supporting the student's not wearing the hijab, or by trying to support the parents' expectation that she wear it,  other students observing will be encouraged to speculate.

If the teacher supports the student in not wearing it.
  • Does this mean she thinks Islam (or perhaps all organized religion) is ridiculous and/or oppressive?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents are generally out of touch, and (most?) teenage rebellion is good?

If the teacher supports the parents' wish that the student wear it.
  • Does this mean she thinks society is missing the authority of  organized religion?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents should always be obeyed, and (most?) teenage rebellion is bad?

These speculations are going to distract students, regardless of whether they actually reflect the teacher's views or not.

By taking an explicitly and intentionally *neutral stance, the teacher reinforces the idea that her priority (and the priority of the students in the classroom) is their education.

(Sample response: "The school dress code doesn't require or forbid hijabs, so anything not part of the school dress code is not my business." Note that response is equally valid whatever "side" of the issue the teacher is on.)

As you say, it is not the teachers job to enforce the child's parents wishes at school.  For the Hijab, there is no code at school stating you need to wear one, so the teacher should allow the student to take it off if they wish.  The parents would see this as being against them.

Likewise, if a child wants to us a different pronoun (which is compliant with most school policies), who is the teacher to deny them? 

I also think some nuance is being missed here when we talk about children in general based on child age.  If a 17 year old wants to go by they/them, I feel they should have the agency.  The black and white 18 yo line is bizarre.

waterboy

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1057 on: January 26, 2023, 10:18:41 AM »
Whether or not a teacher supports or doesn't support - how about the simple statement that it's not the teacher's business - that rests with the parents. If that leads to a ruckus, pass it up the chain of command.
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Wahoo Redux

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1058 on: January 26, 2023, 10:44:07 AM »

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

There is no neutral stance in this case. The teacher listens to the student's concerns and asks what she is concluding. Regardless of what the student decides (I should keep wearing the hijab vs. I will not wear it in school) silence and support implies agreement.


Are there specific topics the teacher should be "neutral" about, or is it just any issue that the student has that a teacher should be "neutral" about?

The primary responsibility of the teachers is students' education. Furthermore, the teacher should be concerned with the education of all of the students. Anything which distracts students in the classroom from focus on their education is bad.

Whenever a teacher is "non-neutral" about any topic on which students may have varying opinions, and varying degrees of passion, the issue will become more of a distraction for those students who are passionate about it, regardless of their opinion on it.

So, for the hijab example. By the teacher taking a side, either supporting the student's not wearing the hijab, or by trying to support the parents' expectation that she wear it,  other students observing will be encouraged to speculate.

If the teacher supports the student in not wearing it.
  • Does this mean she thinks Islam (or perhaps all organized religion) is ridiculous and/or oppressive?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents are generally out of touch, and (most?) teenage rebellion is good?

If the teacher supports the parents' wish that the student wear it.
  • Does this mean she thinks society is missing the authority of  organized religion?
  • Does this mean she thinks parents should always be obeyed, and (most?) teenage rebellion is bad?

These speculations are going to distract students, regardless of whether they actually reflect the teacher's views or not.

By taking an explicitly and intentionally *neutral stance, the teacher reinforces the idea that her priority (and the priority of the students in the classroom) is their education.

(Sample response: "The school dress code doesn't require or forbid hijabs, so anything not part of the school dress code is not my business." Note that response is equally valid whatever "side" of the issue the teacher is on.)

So, if the student comes to the teacher and says, "My parents make me to wear a hijab, but I am not a Muslim, and I am self-conscious wearing it around other students because I am worried they might make fun of me or even attack me.  So please don't tell my parents that I take it off when I am at school.  I also want an Anglicized name, please call me 'Amy' not 'Amara'"  The teacher is "neutral."  What is the teacher supposed to do?

And what is it that you think teachers are doing that would require them to be "neutral?"  You realize that education is a long time scapegoat for arch conservatives.  Your commentary sounds a bit like parroting.
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marshwiggle

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1059 on: January 26, 2023, 11:04:18 AM »

So, if the student comes to the teacher and says, "My parents make me to wear a hijab, but I am not a Muslim, and I am self-conscious wearing it around other students because I am worried they might make fun of me or even attack me.  So please don't tell my parents that I take it off when I am at school.  I also want an Anglicized name, please call me 'Amy' not 'Amara'"  The teacher is "neutral."  What is the teacher supposed to do?

Since the school has no policy specifically around hijabs, then the student doesn't need the teacher's approval, so the teacher can honestly say "It's none of my business." If there's no school policy about nicknames, then again the teacher should follow whatever the practice is with students' names in general. The fact that the hijab (and possibly the name) have something to do with the student being a Muslim has no bearing at all on what dress or name is allowed in the school, and the teacher should explicitly confirm that.

Similarly, the teacher is not going to go through the lunch room to make sure the student's food is halal, because the school has no rules about that.

Quote
And what is it that you think teachers are doing that would require them to be "neutral?"  You realize that education is a long time scapegoat for arch conservatives.  Your commentary sounds a bit like parroting.

Teachers should avoid slogans, political party identification, etc. so that what they reinforce to students is that in the classroom, students' education is the focus. Period.

(I really don't want my financial advisor to explain the benefits (or liabilities) of cannabis legalization. I don't want my lawyer spouting about the merits (or evils) of veganism. Professional settings should focus on the business at hand; I can choose who I want to socialize with, which may include those kinds of discussions. But I don't want to have to think about what ideas or opinions I should or should not express so that the professional relationship will be smooth. )

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Wahoo Redux

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1060 on: January 26, 2023, 11:27:41 AM »

So, if the student comes to the teacher and says, "My parents make me to wear a hijab, but I am not a Muslim, and I am self-conscious wearing it around other students because I am worried they might make fun of me or even attack me.  So please don't tell my parents that I take it off when I am at school.  I also want an Anglicized name, please call me 'Amy' not 'Amara'"  The teacher is "neutral."  What is the teacher supposed to do?

Since the school has no policy specifically around hijabs, then the student doesn't need the teacher's approval, so the teacher can honestly say "It's none of my business." If there's no school policy about nicknames, then again the teacher should follow whatever the practice is with students' names in general. The fact that the hijab (and possibly the name) have something to do with the student being a Muslim has no bearing at all on what dress or name is allowed in the school, and the teacher should explicitly confirm that.

Similarly, the teacher is not going to go through the lunch room to make sure the student's food is halal, because the school has no rules about that.

Okay.  So the teacher just shrugs and lets it go.  Earlier your commentary was this:

Quote
On the other hand, I also don't think the teacher should refuse to answer if the parents ask if she wears the hijab at school, and I certainly think it's very bad for the teacher to lie about it to the parents. As previously stated, if the teacher expects actual abuse, it should be reported, but parents and children disagreeing about rules is about as universal an experience as possible, and people go on to live full and productive lives afterwards. (And have similar disagreements with their own children.)

And:

Quote
Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

And:

Quote
it is not a good precedent to get children to have secrets with adults that they keep from their parents, because there  are people who will use that to take advantage of children.

Now, what happens when the parents call the teacher and ask if their daughter is wearing the hijab and using the name they gave her?   

Quote
Teachers should avoid slogans, political party identification, etc. so that what they reinforce to students is that in the classroom, students' education is the focus. Period.

There will always be some outlier somewhere, but is there evidence enough to warrant this concern about teachers trying to influence their students' political beliefs?  I'll say it again, a little more strongly: This is a longtime propagandistic ploy of the hard right to demonize public schools with very scant evidence that this happens at all.  Have you fallen into the propaganda morass?
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marshwiggle

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1061 on: January 26, 2023, 11:55:25 AM »

Now, what happens when the parents call the teacher and ask if their daughter is wearing the hijab and using the name they gave her?   


As I said earlier
Quote
On the other hand, I also don't think the teacher should refuse to answer if the parents ask if she wears the hijab at school, and I certainly think it's very bad for the teacher to lie about it to the parents. As previously stated, if the teacher expects actual abuse, it should be reported, but parents and children disagreeing about rules is about as universal an experience as possible, and people go on to live full and productive lives afterwards. (And have similar disagreements with their own children.)

I'll amend that and say that if the teacher wants to state the school dress code and confirm that their daughter was not in violation of the dress code, and leave it at that, then that would also be OK. The point is that it's the same message for the student AND the parents; as long as it complies with the dress code, it's the student's business and the teacher has nothing to say about it.


Quote
Quote
Teachers should avoid slogans, political party identification, etc. so that what they reinforce to students is that in the classroom, students' education is the focus. Period.

There will always be some outlier somewhere, but is there evidence enough to warrant this concern about teachers trying to influence their students' political beliefs?  I'll say it again, a little more strongly: This is a longtime propagandistic ploy of the hard right to demonize public schools with very scant evidence that this happens at all.  Have you fallen into the propaganda morass?

Let's put it another way. Do you want conservative teachers trying to influence their students' beliefs? Or would you rather they stuck to the program of teaching the subject matter? I don't care what their specific beliefs are; we don't need schools to be one more place where everyone has to make sure they don't say the "wrong" thing about something which has nothing to do with school.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 12:00:08 PM by marshwiggle »
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Wahoo Redux

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1062 on: January 26, 2023, 12:21:52 PM »

Now, what happens when the parents call the teacher and ask if their daughter is wearing the hijab and using the name they gave her?   


As I said earlier
Quote
On the other hand, I also don't think the teacher should refuse to answer if the parents ask if she wears the hijab at school, and I certainly think it's very bad for the teacher to lie about it to the parents. As previously stated, if the teacher expects actual abuse, it should be reported, but parents and children disagreeing about rules is about as universal an experience as possible, and people go on to live full and productive lives afterwards. (And have similar disagreements with their own children.)

I'll amend that and say that if the teacher wants to state the school dress code and confirm that their daughter was not in violation of the dress code, and leave it at that, then that would also be OK. The point is that it's the same message for the student AND the parents; as long as it complies with the dress code, it's the student's business and the teacher has nothing to say about it.

Hmmmmmm...Now it is "amended" to simply recite policy.  Well, okay, I think we should extend that to trans students, no? 


Quote
Let's put it another way. Do you want conservative teachers trying to influence their students' beliefs? Or would you rather they stuck to the program of teaching the subject matter? I don't care what their specific beliefs are; we don't need schools to be one more place where everyone has to make sure they don't say the "wrong" thing about something which has nothing to do with school.

Again, Marshy, that's not the question.  Is there any widespread evidence that teachers-----conservative, liberal, Christian, Muslim, Satanic, or Cthulian-----have been trying to influence their students' political views?
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Istiblennius

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1063 on: January 26, 2023, 01:50:04 PM »
"Teachers should avoid slogans"

The problem here is that statements reflecting good professional practice of teachers like "everyone is welcome here" or "science is real" are viewed by some people (they tend to regularly view a news channel named after a caniform carnivore) as a politicized slogan.


ciao_yall

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Re: Cancelling Dr. Seuss
« Reply #1064 on: January 26, 2023, 02:09:13 PM »

Let's put it another way. Do you want conservative teachers trying to influence their students' beliefs? Or would you rather they stuck to the program of teaching the subject matter? I don't care what their specific beliefs are; we don't need schools to be one more place where everyone has to make sure they don't say the "wrong" thing about something which has nothing to do with school.

I'm not sure what this means. The vast majority of research around science, sociology, economics, history, you-name-it tends to be "liberal."

Which is why "conservatives" hate the idea of evolution as an accepted phenomenon; equality as being best for a productive society; appropriate government macroeconomic involvement to ensure smoothly moving free markets; that ugly things have happened...