It's not clear to me what the causes are. Is the pandemic the only thing that has changed in children's lives in the last several years?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/surgeon-general-warns-of-mental-health-challenges-confronting-youth/ar-AARz9SE
In particular, if you are an expert in child psychology, I am interested in your impressions. Or recommend reading. (No, not my field, as you will probably have noticed. Although I have ample experience as a patient.)
But any and all who feel so inclined should comment. Thanks.
Jean Twenge documented the decline in mental health of "iGen", i.e. Gen Z, i.e. people who've had social media all of their lives. (Really started to fall after about 2021 or so, as I recall.)
The pandemic is just the icing on the cake.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 19, 2021, 06:43:21 AM
Jean Twenge documented the decline in mental health of "iGen", i.e. Gen Z, i.e. people who've had social media all of their lives. (Really started to fall after about 2021 or so, as I recall.)
The pandemic is just the icing on the cake.
Besides that,
I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.
The current surgeon general, let us remember, is a democrat who worked under Pres. Obama. He knows the children are depressed, and he wants to talk about
the pandemic. Hmm...
The pandemic is bad news about
the present and the future, yet not the indefinite future; whereas being taught you are either an oppressor or a victim is bad news about
the present, the future, the past, and yourself.
ETA: And of course crime is up, so many of us are less safe, and adults are worried about that, and maybe trying to hide their fear.
There's the pandemic. There's looming environmental apocalypse. In your country, there's a failed coup planned in plain sight, and the prospect of a successful one in the near future. And, as marshwiggle observes, there's social media value capture which is doing a very effective job of nurturing negative self-perceptions. Surely all that's more responsible for it than some imaginary thing none of them are being taught.
Besides which, most of the kids can tell that the political classes don't give a fuck about improving things, and won't be able to; they can also see through the bullshit rhetoric of waaaaaah-cancel-culture-ate-my-all-lives-matter-homework-or-was-it-critical-race-theory waaaah. And they find it pretty depressing. Who wouldn't?
But again: surely the two main culprits here are the neverending pandemic and social media vale capture. Everything else is icing on the shit sandwich.
The Isaac Asimov book "I, Robot" was basically a collection of short stories. His novels about robots are based on the theme of his Three Laws of Robotics:
- A robot cannot harm a human, or through inaction allow a human to be harmed.
- A robot must obey its programming, *subject to the first law.
- A robot must try to preserve its own existence, subject to the first two laws.
(*i.e. "as long as it doesn't violate")
One of the characters is a (human) psychologist, who treats robots. In one story, there's a robot who, by a process that no one understands, was able to read minds. This robot was essentially breaking down mentally. It turns out to be because of the first law. Once
mental or
emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.
Asimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.
Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.
The Surgeon General is in the business of expanding his turf. No crisis must go to waste. From the article:
"As we learn the lessons of the COVID-19 pandemic, and start recovering and rebuilding, we have an opportunity to offer a more comprehensive, more fulfilling, and more inclusive vision of what constitutes public health. And for a generation of children facing unprecedented pressures and stresses, day in and day out, change can't come soon enough," the advisory concluded.
Bunch 'o woids that could mean anything, which is what's intended.
In the event, the children of the entitled will be treated just like their parents: With drugs -- prescription, covered by private health insurance, mind you.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 19, 2021, 01:03:14 PM
Once mental or emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.
It should be pretty clear that mental or emotional harms are a real thing. It's a keystone of abusive relationships, for example, as well as of modern-day torture techniques.
QuoteAsimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.
It's one thing to be unable to avoid causing harm. It's another to go out of one's way to cause it, or to cause it because one is entirely oblivious to the consequences of one's actions.
Quote
Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.
Do you have any evidence that anyone actually believes this?
It seems to me that the actual problem--as I thought you suggested in your first post--has to do with the way in which social media engagement causes people to internalize unrealistic body image and unrealistic life narratives, so that they feel like they just can't measure up to the great lives (and perfect bodies) everyone else has.
There's a lot of fear and distress about the possibility of a shooting incident in school. Every time one happens, there are copycats incidents. We had a mass school shooting in our town a few years back, and students are very aware of that — the place in the hallway where the first victim died, etc. We also had one at a nearby college — several people killed. And a student was caught trying to bring two guns to the school in the wake of the recent shooting in Michigan. I'd think that possibility would wear on anyone's mental health, even without a pandemic, ongoing political turmoil, etc. The students I know express apprehension.
Of course, if one is fixated on a particular "wrong" in society, all problems will seem to center on that. In which case, there's hardly any point in asking the question, since the answer is predetermined.
Quote from: dismalist on December 19, 2021, 02:23:39 PM
The Surgeon General is in the business of expanding his turf. No crisis must go to waste. From the article:
"As we learn the lessons of the COVID-19 pandemic, and start recovering and rebuilding, we have an opportunity to offer a more comprehensive, more fulfilling, and more inclusive vision of what constitutes public health. And for a generation of children facing unprecedented pressures and stresses, day in and day out, change can't come soon enough," the advisory concluded.
Bunch 'o woids that could mean anything, which is what's intended.
In the event, the children of the entitled will be treated just like their parents: With drugs -- prescription, covered by private health insurance, mind you.
So depressed children is a lucky break for the surgeon general. Sounds like.
ETA: And possibly too, their administrative counterparts in the schools.
This reminds me of an experience I had with a legal arbitrator. during the hearing you would think the attorneys for the two sides were sworn enemies. But during the down time (break) they would hyuk it up in the hallway about such things as the business value of casting the two clients as being in as antagonistic a relationship as possible, and then gradually coming to an agreement, giving the appearance that some type of magic came from the lawyers.
And their work actually had the expectation of a resolution.
the best bureaucrat (as in most beneficent) would be the one who hopes that one day his position is no longer needed. And that's exactly what we'll never get.
Not that depressed children isn't real. It's a perfectly foreseeable consequence of the poison coming from the radical left, which has made the whole democratic party think they have to play ball with them.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 19, 2021, 03:55:51 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 19, 2021, 01:03:14 PM
Once mental or emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.
It should be pretty clear that mental or emotional harms are a real thing. It's a keystone of abusive relationships, for example, as well as of modern-day torture techniques.
There's no question about emotional harm being
real; the idea that it is
avoidable is misleading.
Quote
QuoteAsimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.
It's one thing to be unable to avoid causing harm. It's another to go out of one's way to cause it, or to cause it because one is entirely oblivious to the consequences of one's actions.
Oncologists "go out of their way to cause it" when they inject poison (aka chemotherapy) into patients to try to cure them.
Instructors "go out of their way to cause it" when they fail students for non-performance or get them expelled for plagiarism.
Parents "go out of their way to cause it" when they discipline their kids for hurting other kids.
And so on.
Furthermore, anyone wishing to accomplish anything worthwhile inevitably has to
take on a lot of harm in order to succeed.
- To become an artist or athlete, one has to accept teachers or coaches giving honest feedback about how your performance to date falls short of what's necessary.
- To have a successful marriage, one has to accept that a non-psychic spouse will occasionally do or say something that feels very hurtful.
- To be a parent, one has to accept that because a kid is not you, they will inevitably have some different priorities and will not make all of the choices the parent would wish.
Life doesn't come with "safe spaces" and puppies for all of the difficulties that life entails.
And this doesn't even touch people living in actual war zones, or famines, etc.
Quote
Quote
Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.
Do you have any evidence that anyone actually believes this?
There are lots of news items about universities setting up "safe spaces" for students just because someone was coming to campus who was going to
talk about something which students might find difficult. There have been lots of discussions on here about mandates of "trigger warnings" for classes. And these are all about just people being exposed to
ideas.
Quote
It seems to me that the actual problem--as I thought you suggested in your first post--has to do with the way in which social media engagement causes people to internalize unrealistic body image and unrealistic life narratives, so that they feel like they just can't measure up to the great lives (and perfect bodies) everyone else has.
That's certainly part of it, but that's just one dimension of the basic problem; ie.
LIFE ISN'T FAIR.No amount of government intervention, or "positivity ("body" or otherwise) can change the fact that everyone does not get everything they want, and people have to live the life that they are given. Someone who loves basketball, but is 4'10" is
never going to play in the NBA.
Body image is just one of the areas in which social media encourages people to "embellish" their lives. But unrealistic expectations in
every area of life are routine.
Another possible source of depression for young children could be not just bad news, but information that is difficult to process. For example whereas a school shooting is just about universally seen as a horrible event, causing people to band together for mutual support and healing, prevention (if possible) other things are mixed. A BLM demonstration is considered striking a blow for social justice, but some are even extending that to the act of looting. Meanwhile kids are taught that stealing is wrong.
Or a rap concert event is canceled because one of the performers has been stabbed to death. But the stabbing victim himself was not only a career criminal but also glorified anti-social and criminal life in his performance 'art.' In fact, his performance 'art' can easily be nothing but that. So is one supposed to grieve for the dead criminal rapper, and then hope for a peaceful rap convert event in the near future so that others can preach about the glory of mayhem and violence, without any impediments. Or is murder part of the entertainment value?
ETA: Understanding when apparently intentional violence against a crowd of people one doesn't know is considered an act of terrorism or just poor driving might be equally puzzling for a young person to process.
And of course, 95% of the commentators in the media are all done talking to each other across the aisle. It's just war. How do you teach a sixth-eighth grader about journalism? What's missing is what we still had when I was public-school age, two political parties that had a baseline respect for each other, even good humored ribbing, a newsman that everybody mostly trusted (Walter Cronkite), etc.
There is a lot of data on this. A whole field that studies things like this in fact. I could talk about it, but clearly the OP just wants to use this thread as yet another outlet for his usual political fixations, rather than it being a genuine question.
Quote from: Puget on December 20, 2021, 06:18:23 AM
There is a lot of data on this. A whole field that studies things like this in fact. I could talk about it, but clearly the OP just wants to use this thread as yet another outlet for his usual political fixations, rather than it being a genuine question.
No, they are genuine questions. So buzz off, buddy. You don't have to read and you don't have to contribute. I already thanked everybody in advance for their thoughts. If you have none, go elsewhere.
If I don't hide that I am less of a fan of academic and other liberal culture than some are, I missed the part where the fora rules require it.
ETA:
Furthermore, you are bringing
your baggage from other threads (dislike of my political views) into this one. Every one of my posts thus far stays on
this topic. You are the one trolling.
there is no requirement that one have expertise in a given field before inviting others who do have that expertise to post.
Anyone is free to rebut and throw their whole PhD and erudition into the task. Have at it!
And all are free to ignore.
I doubt very much that the question 'what does the field have to say about our current situation' apropos of the surgeon general's recent communication is something that has been done to death.
I have a new sig line.
I came in thinking Mahagonny was actually making an interesting thread for once, but then I read this:
Quote from: mahagonny on December 19, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.
Turns out it is yet another white grievance thread!
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 21, 2021, 07:17:46 AM
I came in thinking Mahagonny was actually making an interesting thread for once, but then I read this:
Quote from: mahagonny on December 19, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.
Turns out it is yet another white grievance thread!
As far as I know, cognitive behavioral therapy isn't race-based, but it does discourage people from seeing themselves as victims because that undermines their mental health.
The "victim-oppressor" mindset is bad for the
victims.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 21, 2021, 07:23:55 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 21, 2021, 07:17:46 AM
I came in thinking Mahagonny was actually making an interesting thread for once, but then I read this:
Quote from: mahagonny on December 19, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.
Turns out it is yet another white grievance thread!
As far as I know, cognitive behavioral therapy isn't race-based, but it does discourage people from seeing themselves as victims because that undermines their mental health.
The "victim-oppressor" mindset is bad for the victims.
Absolutely right. To forfeit one's personal agency is tragic. Also false.
Not to mention some students and their parents understand themselves to be of mixed racial origin (as long as the woke-a-crats who populate their school's administration insist that everyone must claim a racial identity, which might not even be considered necessary were it not for the presence of these educators and their political agenda) so they find themselves in the stressful situation of having to choose which reason their lives are hopelessly ruined from the get-go, according to the new world view that these authority figures dictate. I suspect this also contributes to the depression the surgeon general notices. Some are beginning to fight back though. this would not mean they are not depressed. You could be fighting back because you are frightened.
Here's what I don't understand. Groups like the Southern Baptist Convention are up in arms over the idea of critical race theory, which teaches that our society is structured in ways that fundamentally advantage one group over another—or to put it another way, our society is structurally sinful. Yet at the same time, they subscribe to Calvin's doctrine of total depravity: human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall. If we are totally depraved, then of COURSE our society is structurally sinful. They don't want schools teaching kids that they are racist, but are happy to teach kids that they are sinners. Do they not see the contradictions?
Quote from: pgher on December 22, 2021, 06:30:31 AM
Here's what I don't understand. Groups like the Southern Baptist Convention are up in arms over the idea of critical race theory, which teaches that our society is structured in ways that fundamentally advantage one group over another—or to put it another way, our society is structurally sinful. Yet at the same time, they subscribe to Calvin's doctrine of total depravity: human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall. If we are totally depraved, then of COURSE our society is structurally sinful. They don't want schools teaching kids that they are racist, but are happy to teach kids that they are sinners. Do they not see the contradictions?
The big difference is that the doctrine of original sin applies to
all of humanity. People aren't born into different levels of original sin, i.e. "privilege", and everyone must strive to overcome that tendency. (The desire to "oppress" is part of the
human condition, not a result of belonging to a particular cultural or ethnic group.)
"There is none righteous; no not one."
That's
antithetical to CRT.
Quote from: pgher on December 22, 2021, 06:30:31 AM
Here's what I don't understand. Groups like the Southern Baptist Convention are up in arms over the idea of critical race theory, which teaches that our society is structured in ways that fundamentally advantage one group over another—or to put it another way, our society is structurally sinful. Yet at the same time, they subscribe to Calvin's doctrine of total depravity: human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall. If we are totally depraved, then of COURSE our society is structurally sinful. They don't want schools teaching kids that they are racist, but are happy to teach kids that they are sinners. Do they not see the contradictions?
My answer to that would be that critical race theory could be easily interpreted as implying that certain groups in society are bigger sinners than other by virtue of belonging to an "oppressor" race, as opposed to an "oppressed" race. Which doesn't sound any fairer than the idea that some belong to "master" races and some to "slave" races.
I can also tell you that within Southern Baptist circles there has been a great deal of developing realization in recent decades of a need to move away from past racism. You'll recall that some years ago the Southern Baptist Convention formally apologized for its origins as a denomination that broke with the wider Baptist fellowship in adopting a position of supporting slavery. That was a
huge mea culpa. And it was done, like all Convention resolutions, by a majority of elected messengers from individual church congregations. In other words, it had grass-roots support far beyond the usual institutional apologies that have become so common in recent years.
Southern Baptists get it--we have a history of white supremacy, and that is a sin that we have to work on. And it is understood to be an ongoing issue. I've known a number of pastors--our own pastor is one--who have been quite outspoken about repudiating racism in our personal and institutional life and conduct. Yet these same pastors are generally opponents of critical race theory, because they understand it as a radical ideology that is more likely to hinder rather than help reconciliation between the races.
In Christianity, you ask God to forgive you and he says 'sure, OK'. In CRT, the white man asks the black man for forgiveness, and the black man answers 'you don't even comprehend the evil that you are yet.' And black people mostly want nothing to do with anything so extreme. It's mostly radical white liberals and some black journalists, sports figures, academics et al who are making the noise. The majority of Americans recognize it as toxic but don't go around saying so, because if you do, you're called either Uncle Tom or white racist by the noisy mob.
Academia, of course, has been dying to get more blacks on the tenure track, which has been one the whitest places on earth. Therefore the plethora of 'why and how white people suck' graduate programs that have POC on the faculty.
I have a feeling we're gonna be making a U-turn in our public discourse when the democrats get their well-deserved disaster of an election year come November. One should hope, but not be complacent.
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 07:01:44 AM
In Christianity, you ask God to forgive you and he says 'sure, OK'. In CRT, the white man asks the black man for forgiveness, and the black man answers 'you don't even comprehend the evil that you are yet.' And black people mostly want nothing to do with anything so extreme. It's mostly radical white liberals and some black journalists, sports figures, academics et al who are making the noise. The majority of Americans recognize it as toxic but don't go around saying so, because if you do, you're called either Uncle Tom or white racist by the noisy mob.
Academia, of course, has been dying to get more blacks on the tenure track, which has been one the whitest places on earth. Therefore the plethora of 'why and how white people suck' graduate programs that have POC on the faculty.
I have a feeling we're gonna be making a U-turn in our public discourse when the democrats get their well-deserved disaster of an election year come November. One should hope, but not be complacent.
This summary of it is hilarious.
I have to give you credit: It is impressive that you have such strong opinions about critical race theory while simultaneously knowing so little about it.
[snort] Ah, yes, CRT, that thing that, just maybe, exists, somewhere, it's like a heavy fog. You can never walk into the center of it. you can only see it in the distance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3KWxcupP-w
'Antiracism,' dismantling white privilege, centering whiteness, dismantling white supremacy. One term is interchangeable with the next. The people who are want to insert this religion into our government, schools, 9-5 jobs, by mob rule, have all been smoking the same water pipe. Knowing who they are is enough, I have decided.
In a somewhat surprising plot twist, though, it turns out Kendi is a transphobic bigot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3KWxcupP-w
If the Baptists have been trying to make everyone in the USA into Baptists by that method, they surely have been doing a poor job of it. So they would be no threat to our freedom.
ETA: Scientology talks about 'engrams' which are mental/emotional obstacles to inner peace and happiness that exist in your soul over decades, centuries, and were caused by traumatic experiences that you experienced in a former life. That life and all your other ones are shrouded in mystery, which the medicine man will unveil to you by degrees. The highly trained auditor removes them, as though by surgery. It's not unlike a person today who has been convinced he walks around all day suffering from hurts his distant relatives endured. And someone comes along who wants to make you whole again.
Fairy tales.
Classic Mahagonny: threadjacking his own thread with a bunch of unhinged CRT posts.
The pertinent bit begins at about 1:20:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2dj59Db1C4
Quote from: little bongo on December 22, 2021, 08:37:20 AM
The pertinent bit begins at about 1:20:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2dj59Db1C4
Hahahaha, Little Bongo, very apt!
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 08:27:38 AM
Classic Mahagonny: threadjacking his own thread with a bunch of unhinged CRT posts.
If it's not too much to ask, please observe my preferred pronouns. I am gender non-binary.