I hate lawyers and don't like being around them. (It's not personal. I just hate the profession.) This has been one of the factors in my procrastinating in making a will and doing POA in case I become incapacitated. I don't have kids. My estate is reasonably simple. I have people who are willing to be executors and act as POA.
My investments and bank accounts are already designated to go to relatives on my death. So the only thing that really needs sorting out is my house. On my death, it will need to be sold -- supposing I still own it then. I am tempted to sell up and move in the next few years.
I've looked at web pages describing free or cheap options, so I have a good idea what it involves. I'm just wondering if others have experience of avoiding going to a lawyer and using other options. I expect that there are some horror stories, but then there are also horror stories with using regular lawyers. I will be dead, so I don't care that much, but I'd like to make it pretty easy for those who stand to inherit and who are executing the instructions.
My state provides a template for a simple will, as well as standard forms for POA, healthcare POA, and disposition of remains. I have used all of these. They haven't been tested yet, but it is difficult to imagine any legal problems when using the state's own legal forms.
Do take everyone's advice and get it done. It had been weighing on us, but was then such a relief knowing our assets would not be abused if something happened to us.
Quote from: flyingbison on November 11, 2019, 08:05:42 AM
My state provides a template for a simple will, as well as standard forms for POA, healthcare POA, and disposition of remains. I have used all of these. They haven't been tested yet, but it is difficult to imagine any legal problems when using the state's own legal forms.
A will can be whatever you want, but I think POA is supposed to be the state form. At least when we did ours, the lawyer just filled out the standard form and walked us through the Q&A to check the right options. Our will is more complex than that.
I investigated doing it on my own, and am glad I went to a lawyer. Things were more complicated than I realized.
Just do it. There are good lawyers out there who will have your best interests at heart.
We generally use a lawyer for these things but a few years ago, I was going to be out of the country for 6 months on sabbatical and wanted Mrs Artem to be able to file our taxes, do the banking etc in my absence. We used Legal Zoom for about $35 to create a POA. They claim all their forms are approved by a lawyer, for whatever that's worth. Not sure I'd use them for anything more complicated
My wife and I did our wills a couple years ago. We hired a lawyer and it cost about $1k for the whole deal - specifying multiple POA (and sending letters to each of them to get a signature), instructions for funerary stuff (ashes, coffin etc.), instructions of when to pull the plug, etc. I didn't want to mess things up with the online services. It helped that the lawyer we used came highly recommended from somebody we trusted. I want to make things as easy as possible for whoever has to clean up my corpse and collections of crap etc... no kids.
Check your employer's HR page to see if you have access to an Employee Assistance Program. You may be able to get a simple will done for free with little difficulty. I had my will done through the EAP. The plan wanted to send me a will kit, but I insisted on seeing an attorney, so it took a bit longer to get arranged, but it got done. (and at no cost to me!)
Quote from: clean on November 11, 2019, 05:24:50 PM
Check your employer's HR page to see if you have access to an Employee Assistance Program. You may be able to get a simple will done for free with little difficulty. I had my will done through the EAP. The plan wanted to send me a will kit, but I insisted on seeing an attorney, so it took a bit longer to get arranged, but it got done. (and at no cost to me!)
Thanks. That does get me a free copy of Quicken Willmaker. I will check it out.
Get a medical POA and a financial POA as well that can kick in when you're temporarily or otherwise incapacitated. They'll figure out something when you're dead. You want to make your wishes known now with people who can arrange your care.
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2019, 06:19:58 PM
Get a medical POA and a financial POA as well that can kick in when you're temporarily or otherwise incapacitated. They'll figure out something when you're dead. You want to make your wishes known now with people who can arrange your care.
I debated whether I should a standing POA or a springing POA. The advice I got was that it can be a lot more difficult to enact a springing POA. If I don't really trust the people I'm choosing for a standing POA, they should not be chosen at all.
Quote from: downer on November 11, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2019, 06:19:58 PM
Get a medical POA and a financial POA as well that can kick in when you're temporarily or otherwise incapacitated. They'll figure out something when you're dead. You want to make your wishes known now with people who can arrange your care.
I debated whether I should a standing POA or a springing POA. The advice I got was that it can be a lot more difficult to enact a springing POA. If I don't really trust the people I'm choosing for a standing POA, they should not be chosen at all.
We were told specifically by multiple sources to get a springing POA for financial and medical issues and make a bazillion copies to put on file now with the relevant institutions and people. The horror stories from the locals about closer blood relatives (the people the state say get notified) showing up to the hospital to take control over the people one would actually want making decisions over an unconscious body were much more compelling than the idea that we had to give POA right now to someone.
In fact, our POAs come with an additional signing sheet so we could invoke before going into surgery or doing something else risky with a revocation clause upon being safe on the other side.
We don't have enough money for anyone to want to declare us incompetent, but we do regularly drive and walk down stairs so that it's possible to end up needing someone to be able to be activated as having POA.
Quote from: polly_mer on November 12, 2019, 05:33:44 AM
Quote from: downer on November 11, 2019, 06:25:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 11, 2019, 06:19:58 PM
Get a medical POA and a financial POA as well that can kick in when you're temporarily or otherwise incapacitated. They'll figure out something when you're dead. You want to make your wishes known now with people who can arrange your care.
I debated whether I should a standing POA or a springing POA. The advice I got was that it can be a lot more difficult to enact a springing POA. If I don't really trust the people I'm choosing for a standing POA, they should not be chosen at all.
We were told specifically by multiple sources to get a springing POA for financial and medical issues and make a bazillion copies to put on file now with the relevant institutions and people. The horror stories from the locals about closer blood relatives (the people the state say get notified) showing up to the hospital to take control over the people one would actually want making decisions over an unconscious body were much more compelling than the idea that we had to give POA right now to someone.
In fact, our POAs come with an additional signing sheet so we could invoke before going into surgery or doing something else risky with a revocation clause upon being safe on the other side.
We don't have enough money for anyone to want to declare us incompetent, but we do regularly drive and walk down stairs so that it's possible to end up needing someone to be able to be activated as having POA.
Is it possible to do a POA that gives limited power, paying bills, mortgage, medical expenses, and not allowing transfers of funds to others on a large scale?
I had POA for one of my parents in the UK, which was unlimited power. The main concern there was that the government would be concerned about misuse of funds, and tax authorities also had some oversight.
Quote from: downer on November 12, 2019, 06:04:55 AM
Is it possible to do a POA that gives limited power, paying bills, mortgage, medical expenses, and not allowing transfers of funds to others on a large scale?
Check your state POA form. Mine has a checklist for 13 different areas of responsibility that can be selected (or not), as well as place for specific instructions to be listed.
An attorney is helpful for describing the consequences of the various choices one can make in the will, advance medical directive or POA. That information can save quite a bit of time and avoid mistakes (two alternative meanings of cheap and easy).
The distaste for attorneys is understandable. One way to get very good advice from a more sympathetic attorney is to use one that primarily practices elder law. That is, they mostly represent old people who are now needing those plans. Their style is likely to be very different from trial or corporate lawyers and they know a lot of the pitfalls you want to avoid.
Quote from: Hibush on November 12, 2019, 06:18:36 AM
One way to get very good advice from a more sympathetic attorney is to use one that primarily practices elder law. That is, they mostly represent old people who are now needing those plans. Their style is likely to be very different from trial or corporate lawyers and they know a lot of the pitfalls you want to avoid.
Second to the specialty of elder law. We used our legal insurance to have wills and POAs done (we even have a ready-for-triggering POA for someone to make school etc. decisions for Blocky in case that becomes necessary) with someone in town who does that almost exclusively.
As flyingbison wrote, the lawyer specializing in this area had checklists and standard options from which to choose to have a lot of control over who gets to do what under what circumstances. We didn't even know to ask all the questions, but once it was there on the sheet as an option, we had good discussions on what we wanted.
I had durable POA for my father. Under POWERS/Monies it reads: "To use the funds in any account of mine on deposit with any financial institution, for my health, support, and comfort; to make deposits and withdrawals, whether by check or otherwise; to renew or not renew any certificates of deposit; to cash in or transfer any stocks or bonds; and to have full access to the contents of my safe deposit box."
I presume you could put in certain restrictions but obviously, a lawyer could advise. This POA was in Tennessee.
Quote from: flyingbison on November 12, 2019, 06:16:12 AM
Quote from: downer on November 12, 2019, 06:04:55 AM
Is it possible to do a POA that gives limited power, paying bills, mortgage, medical expenses, and not allowing transfers of funds to others on a large scale?
Check your state POA form. Mine has a checklist for 13 different areas of responsibility that can be selected (or not), as well as place for specific instructions to be listed.
Ah yes, it does have something like that. It is a complicated form. I guess that's an argument for having a lawyer guide me through it.
Get a lawyer who specializes. You don't want to play with this stuff. And a lawyer overseeing the process can be a godsend, even if you don't like the profession (see below).
And! Make damn sure you tell whoever will be exercising the POA what it is, where the documents are, and what the responsibilities are. My father apparently told my mother about the POA and the living trust he had set up before he died. Then my mother developed dementia. I didn't know about any of this until I hired a lawyer who tracked down the will and the trust for my mom. I was able to keep the estate afloat and get the taxes paid but I live in a distant state and it was a major hassle until the bank took over the finances.
It simply is a good idea to let the pros deal with the intricacies of the law.
A specialist? I thought this was bread and butter law, done by Main St legal practices.
I've been quoted about $600 from a lawyer to do the will, POA and Advance Directive. A friend recommended the lawyer.
Obviously I can do it for myself for a lot less. I'm not really worried about the $600 too much, so long as that gets it all over and done with.
I think if you got a personal recommendation that is probably as good as anything for a more or less routine legal matter. I was thinking of a lawyer who specializes in elder or estate law.
My dad went to a law firm which focused on probate and estate law, and they were fantastic when they swung into action. Before I knew this, I contacted the state's Bar organization and asked for a referral. The lawyer they referred me to was a complete dud----he was young and couldn't tell his ass from the lightswitch. Finally he admitted that the living will was beyond him; he was fair and didn't charge for his non-services. The big thing he accomplished was finding the law firm which had done the estate documents in the first place.
I didn't mean to derail. I simply think it is important to have a lawyer do your documents in case there comes a time that you cannot deal with the legalities yourself. People often take advantage of the POA. Good to have a lawyer then.
From wahoo-redux: I simply think it is important to have a lawyer do your documents in case there comes a time that you cannot deal with the legalities yourself. People often take advantage of the POA. Good to have a lawyer then.
DEFINITELY!!! (from another wahoo...)
Quote from: downer on November 12, 2019, 07:06:09 AM
A specialist? I thought this was bread and butter law, done by Main St legal practices.
It depends on what you need done, and how solidly. We just did our estate planning with a small firm that just does that, and it was wills with multiple contingencies and related testamentary trust, guardianship, HIPAA releases, POA, health directives, transfer on death deed for our house and more. We paid about $1200 and it comes with unlimited changes and consultations for us and anyone associated with our estate. So if something happens and a relative/executor needs to get copies of something, check information etc they won't get billed for that.
Quote from: downer on November 12, 2019, 07:06:09 AM
A specialist? I thought this was bread and butter law, done by Main St legal practices.
Obviously I can do it for myself for a lot less.
It is the difference between "doing it" and doing it right. A specialist in elderlaw will be able to turn your desires into the appropriate legal language. They will also ask questions you didn't think of, and have potential answers to consider. That is likely to be less expensive, at least a better value, that using than someone doing mostly real estate, or someone writing fill-in-the-blank forms.