Surgeon General Worried/ Kids' Mental Health

[mahagonny]

It's not clear to me what the causes are. Is the pandemic the only thing that has changed in children's lives in the last several years?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/surgeon-general-warns-of-mental-health-challenges-confronting-youth/ar-AARz9SE

In particular, if you are an expert in child psychology, I am interested in your impressions. Or recommend reading. (No, not my field, as you will probably have noticed. Although I have ample experience as a patient.)
But any and all who feel so inclined should comment. Thanks.

[marshwiggle]

Jean Twenge documented the decline in mental health of "iGen", i.e. Gen Z, i.e. people who've had social media all of their lives. (Really started to fall after about 2021 or so, as I recall.)

The pandemic is just the icing on the cake.

[mahagonny]

Jean Twenge documented the decline in mental health of "iGen", i.e. Gen Z, i.e. people who've had social media all of their lives. (Really started to fall after about 2021 or so, as I recall.)

The pandemic is just the icing on the cake.

Besides that,
I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.
The current surgeon general, let us remember, is a democrat who worked under Pres. Obama. He knows the children are depressed, and he wants to talk about the pandemic. Hmm...
The pandemic is bad news about the present and the future, yet not the indefinite future; whereas being taught you are either an oppressor or a victim is bad news about the present, the future,  the past, and yourself.
ETA: And of course crime is up, so many of us are less safe, and adults are worried about that, and maybe trying to hide their fear.

[Parasaurolophus]

There's the pandemic. There's looming environmental apocalypse. In your country, there's a failed coup planned in plain sight, and the prospect of a successful one in the near future. And, as marshwiggle observes, there's social media value capture which is doing a very effective job of nurturing negative self-perceptions. ​Surely all that's more responsible for it than some imaginary thing none of them are being taught.

Besides which, most of the kids can tell that the political classes don't give a fuck about improving things, and won't be able to; they can also see through the bullshit rhetoric of waaaaaah-cancel-culture-ate-my-all-lives-matter-homework-or-was-it-critical-race-theory waaaah. And they find it pretty depressing. Who wouldn't?


But again: surely the two main culprits here are the neverending pandemic and social media vale capture. Everything else is icing on the shit sandwich.

[marshwiggle]

The Isaac Asimov book "I, Robot" was basically a collection of short stories. His novels about robots are based on the theme of his Three Laws of Robotics:

• A robot cannot harm a human, or through inaction allow a human to be harmed.
• A robot  must obey its programming, *subject to the first law.
• A robot must try to preserve its own existence, subject to the first two laws.

(*i.e. "as long as it doesn't violate")

One of the characters is a (human) psychologist, who treats robots. In one story, there's a robot who, by a process that no one understands, was able to read minds. This robot was essentially breaking down mentally. It turns out to be because of the first law. Once mental or emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.


Asimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.

Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.

[dismalist]

The Surgeon General is in the business of expanding his turf. No crisis must go to waste. From the article:

"As we learn the lessons of the COVID-19 pandemic, and start recovering and rebuilding, we have an opportunity to offer a more comprehensive, more fulfilling, and more inclusive vision of what constitutes public health. And for a generation of children facing unprecedented pressures and stresses, day in and day out, change can't come soon enough," the advisory concluded.

Bunch 'o woids that could mean anything, which is what's intended.

In the event, the children of the entitled will be treated just like their parents: With drugs -- prescription, covered by private health insurance, mind you.

[Parasaurolophus]

Once mental or emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.

It should be pretty clear that mental or emotional harms are a real thing. It's a keystone of abusive relationships, for example, as well as of modern-day torture techniques.

Asimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.

It's one thing to be unable to avoid causing harm. It's another to go out of one's way to cause it, or to cause it because one is entirely oblivious to the consequences of one's actions.

Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.

Do you have any evidence that anyone actually believes this?

It seems to me that the actual problem--as I thought you suggested in your first post--has to do with the way in which social media engagement causes people to internalize unrealistic body image and unrealistic life narratives, so that they feel like they just can't measure up to the great lives (and perfect bodies) everyone else has.

[Hegemony]

There's a lot of fear and distress about the possibility of a shooting incident in school. Every time one happens, there are copycats incidents. We had a mass school shooting in our town a few years back, and students are very aware of that — the place in the hallway where the first victim died, etc. We also had one at a nearby college — several people killed. And a student was caught trying to bring two guns to the school in the wake of the recent shooting in Michigan. I'd think that possibility would wear on anyone's mental health, even without a pandemic, ongoing political turmoil, etc. The students I know express apprehension.

Of course, if one is fixated on a particular "wrong" in society, all problems will seem to center on that. In which case, there's hardly any point in asking the question, since the answer is predetermined.

[mahagonny]

The Surgeon General is in the business of expanding his turf. No crisis must go to waste. From the article:

"As we learn the lessons of the COVID-19 pandemic, and start recovering and rebuilding, we have an opportunity to offer a more comprehensive, more fulfilling, and more inclusive vision of what constitutes public health. And for a generation of children facing unprecedented pressures and stresses, day in and day out, change can't come soon enough," the advisory concluded.

Bunch 'o woids that could mean anything, which is what's intended.

In the event, the children of the entitled will be treated just like their parents: With drugs -- prescription, covered by private health insurance, mind you.

So depressed children is a lucky break for the surgeon general. Sounds like.

ETA: And possibly too, their administrative counterparts in the schools.

This reminds me of an experience I had with a legal arbitrator. during the hearing you would think the attorneys for the two sides were sworn enemies. But during the down time (break) they would hyuk it up in the hallway about such things as the business value of casting the two clients as being in as antagonistic a relationship as possible, and then gradually coming to an agreement, giving the appearance that some type of magic came from the lawyers.
And their work actually had the expectation of a resolution.

the best bureaucrat (as in most beneficent) would be the one who hopes that one day his position is no longer needed. And that's exactly what we'll never get.

Not that depressed children isn't real. It's a perfectly foreseeable consequence of the poison coming from the radical left, which has made the whole democratic party think they have to play ball with them.

[marshwiggle]

Once mental or emotional "harm" is considered, there's basically no way for the robot to avoid "harming" humans.

It should be pretty clear that mental or emotional harms are a real thing. It's a keystone of abusive relationships, for example, as well as of modern-day torture techniques.

There's no question about emotional harm being real; the idea that it is avoidable is misleading.

Asimov foresaw our victim culture and the impossibility of avoiding "harm" decades ago.

It's one thing to be unable to avoid causing harm. It's another to go out of one's way to cause it, or to cause it because one is entirely oblivious to the consequences of one's actions.

Oncologists "go out of their way to cause it" when they inject poison (aka chemotherapy) into patients to try to cure them.

Instructors "go out of their way to cause it" when they fail students for non-performance or get them expelled for plagiarism.

Parents "go out of their way to cause it" when they discipline their kids for hurting other kids.

And so on.

Furthermore, anyone wishing to accomplish anything worthwhile inevitably has to
take on a lot of harm in order to succeed.

• To become an artist or athlete, one has to accept teachers or coaches giving honest feedback about how your performance to date falls short of what's necessary.
• To have a successful marriage, one has to accept that a non-psychic spouse will occasionally do or say something that feels very hurtful.
• To be a parent, one has to accept that because a kid is not you, they will inevitably have some different priorities and will not make all of the choices the parent would wish.

Life doesn't come with "safe spaces" and puppies for all of the difficulties that life entails.

And this doesn't even touch people living in actual war zones, or famines, etc.

Young people are led to believe that it ought to be possible to live a life without "harm" if only society would be nice which is very destructive to their mental health as well as being untrue.

Do you have any evidence that anyone actually believes this?

There are lots of news items about universities setting up "safe spaces" for students just because someone was coming to campus who was going to talk about something which students might find difficult. There have been lots of discussions on here about mandates of "trigger warnings" for classes. And these are all about just people being exposed to ideas.

It seems to me that the actual problem--as I thought you suggested in your first post--has to do with the way in which social media engagement causes people to internalize unrealistic body image and unrealistic life narratives, so that they feel like they just can't measure up to the great lives (and perfect bodies) everyone else has.

That's certainly part of it, but that's just one dimension of the basic problem; ie.

LIFE ISN'T FAIR.

No amount of government intervention, or "positivity ("body" or otherwise) can change the fact that everyone does not get everything they want, and people have to live the life that they are given. Someone who loves basketball, but is 4'10" is never going to play in the NBA.

Body image is just one of the areas in which  social media encourages people to "embellish" their lives. But unrealistic expectations in every area of life are routine.

[mahagonny]

Another possible source of depression for young children could be not just bad news, but information that is difficult to process. For example whereas a school shooting is just about universally seen as a horrible event, causing people to band together for mutual support and healing, prevention (if possible) other things are mixed. A BLM demonstration is considered striking a blow for social justice, but some are even extending that to the act of looting. Meanwhile kids are taught that stealing is wrong.
Or a rap concert event is canceled because one of the performers has been stabbed to death. But the stabbing victim himself was not only a career criminal but also glorified anti-social and criminal life in his performance 'art.' In fact, his performance 'art' can easily be nothing but that.  So is one supposed to grieve for the dead criminal rapper, and then hope for a peaceful rap convert event in the near future so that others can preach about the glory of mayhem and violence, without any impediments. Or is murder part of the entertainment value?
ETA: Understanding when apparently intentional violence against a crowd of people one doesn't know is considered an act of terrorism or just poor driving might be equally puzzling for a young person to process.
And of course, 95% of the commentators in the media are all done talking to each other across the aisle. It's just war. How do you teach a sixth-eighth grader about journalism? What's missing is what we still had when I was public-school age, two political parties that had a baseline respect for each other, even good humored ribbing, a newsman that everybody mostly trusted (Walter Cronkite), etc.

[Puget]

There is a lot of data on this. A whole field that studies things like this in fact. I could talk about it, but clearly the OP just wants to use this thread as yet another outlet for his usual political fixations, rather than it being a genuine question.

[mahagonny]

There is a lot of data on this. A whole field that studies things like this in fact. I could talk about it, but clearly the OP just wants to use this thread as yet another outlet for his usual political fixations, rather than it being a genuine question.

No, they are genuine questions. So buzz off, buddy. You don't have to read and you don't have to contribute. I already thanked everybody in advance for their thoughts. If you have none, go elsewhere.
If I don't hide that I am less of a fan of academic and other liberal culture than some are, I missed the part where the fora rules require it.

ETA:

Furthermore, you are bringing your baggage from other threads (dislike of my political views) into this one. Every one of my posts thus far stays on this topic. You are the one trolling.
there is no requirement that one have expertise in a given field before inviting others who do have that expertise to post.
Anyone is free to rebut and throw their whole PhD and erudition into the task. Have at it!
And all are free to ignore.
I doubt very much that the question 'what does the field have to say about our current situation' apropos of the surgeon general's recent communication is something that has been done to death.

I have a new sig line.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I came in thinking Mahagonny was actually making an interesting thread for once, but then I read this:

I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.

Turns out it is yet another white grievance thread!

[marshwiggle]

I came in thinking Mahagonny was actually making an interesting thread for once, but then I read this:

I'm interested in the effect on children's mental health of being taught that they belong to either the oppressor race or the victim race, and that action to address this (version of) reality is urgently needed, and also probably futile. Also, I'm interested in who's making a point of not being interested.

Turns out it is yet another white grievance thread!

As far as I know, cognitive behavioral therapy isn't race-based, but it does discourage people from seeing themselves as victims because that undermines their mental health.

The "victim-oppressor" mindset is bad for the victims.