The Fora: A Higher Education Community

Yes, even without the later problems that obviously developed, he comes across as a manic guy, low on the academic ladder and desperate to shore up his self-esteem. I'm surprised the Oxford Round Table isn't on there somewhere (or maybe it is). We actually had someone very much like that on our faculty, and he collected guns and had a shooting galley in his back yard. I think when a man feels desperately powerless, guns may seem to give him the illusion of power. But not the right kind of power.

Yes, but a lot going on in the world will show him that dudes with guns can get a lot done, even if doing so means killing innocents. Not that I approve!  But I can see how a twisted person can do such things under such justification. It is curious to me that this is a very dominantly male phenomenon. Of the mass shootings of the last few years I only recall two or three women as perpetrators, and only one seemed to be acting alone in a spree, similar to the males (I believe, in Nashville, last spring).

Quote from: Ruralguy on December 10, 2023, 07:49:05 PMYes, but a lot going on in the world will show him that dudes with guns can get a lot done, even if doing so means killing innocents. Not that I approve!  But I can see how a twisted person can do such things under such justification. It is curious to me that this is a very dominantly male phenomenon. Of the mass shootings of the last few years I only recall two or three women as perpetrators, and only one seemed to be acting alone in a spree, similar to the males (I believe, in Nashville, last spring).

One observation, based on lots of reading about male and female use and abuse of power, and having had kids of both sexes; men deal with conflict physically, women deal with it psychologically. Gangs is the male example of aggression; "mean girls" is the female example. Angry men destroy lives; angry women destroy reputations.

Both in their unrestrained forms can do incredible damage.

I get all that.

But mass shooter incidents, especially those with automatic rifles, and not against a particular person or family,
are *very* male, mostly younger males (although the disaffected older dude thing seems to be a thing now).

A possible reason he left ECU. Not really surprising: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unlv-gunman-resigned-professor-ecu-making-sexual-comment-rcna128841

Incel or paid for sex seems to be part of the equation for many of them. Can't form normal-enough relationships due to their extreme weirdness, which leads to resentment and rage at those who they thing wronged them.

Quote from: Ruralguy on December 11, 2023, 07:04:55 AMI get all that.

But mass shooter incidents, especially those with automatic rifles, and not against a particular person or family,
are *very* male, mostly younger males (although the disaffected older dude thing seems to be a thing now).

Jeepers creepers. 'The woman, who asked to remain anonymous, previously told NBC News that Polito pursued her for nearly an entire semester, contacting her almost every day through email and texts and buying her gifts. "I felt preyed upon," she said."

And:

"...she also said she complained about how unconventional Polito's class was, noting he rarely stuck to the course topic, but would focus instead on Las Vegas."

(All from the NBC article.)

It's clear he had lost any perspective on appropriate behavior. And was somehow obsessed with Las Vegas.

Quote from: Hegemony on December 12, 2023, 12:52:01 AMJeepers creepers. 'The woman, who asked to remain anonymous, previously told NBC News that Polito pursued her for nearly an entire semester, contacting her almost every day through email and texts and buying her gifts. "I felt preyed upon," she said."

And:

"...she also said she complained about how unconventional Polito's class was, noting he rarely stuck to the course topic, but would focus instead on Las Vegas."

(All from the NBC article.)

It's clear he had lost any perspective on appropriate behavior. And was somehow obsessed with Las Vegas.

I don't want to hijack, but what does a faculty member do when they hear someone else check one of the above boxes? For example, I've heard a guy (whose office and occasional classroom are near mine) say comments similar to the "a low cut outfit gets an A in my class). Or "what the F%^# is wrong with you?" when a student wears a Kiss shirt and doesn't listen to Kiss, or offers them candy when they come to mandatory office hours. To me, his behavior is unprofessional and objectionable — but what if they students don't find him such? I certainly don't think he's a conspiracy theorist or hoarding guns, but I do think he's capable of getting drunk with his male students and ogle sorority girls. What's elevates my concerns from prurient gossip to something worth documenting?

Quote from: RatGuy on December 12, 2023, 06:23:26 AM

Quote from: Hegemony on December 12, 2023, 12:52:01 AMJeepers creepers. 'The woman, who asked to remain anonymous, previously told NBC News that Polito pursued her for nearly an entire semester, contacting her almost every day through email and texts and buying her gifts. "I felt preyed upon," she said."

And:

"...she also said she complained about how unconventional Polito's class was, noting he rarely stuck to the course topic, but would focus instead on Las Vegas."

(All from the NBC article.)

It's clear he had lost any perspective on appropriate behavior. And was somehow obsessed with Las Vegas.

I don't want to hijack, but what does a faculty member do when they hear someone else check one of the above boxes? For example, I've heard a guy (whose office and occasional classroom are near mine) say comments similar to the "a low cut outfit gets an A in my class). Or "what the F%^# is wrong with you?" when a student wears a Kiss shirt and doesn't listen to Kiss, or offers them candy when they come to mandatory office hours. To me, his behavior is unprofessional and objectionable — but what if they students don't find him such? I certainly don't think he's a conspiracy theorist or hoarding guns, but I do think he's capable of getting drunk with his male students and ogle sorority girls. What's elevates my concerns from prurient gossip to something worth documenting?

I would absolutely report the comment about a low cut outfit getting an A-- in fact, in the US you are legally mandated to report any sexual harassment you witness to your institution's title 9 office.

In isolation (i.e., if this was another person) the other things you note don't seem obviously problematic though. Presuming the t-shirt comment was said jokingly, not actually swearing *at* the student in a serious way--unless you are at a very conservative religious university you are hardly going to shock the students, who sprinkle these words throughout everyday conversation. It could just be a way of relating to the students.

As to handing out candy, I don't really understand how that is unprofessional? Tons of faculty (me included) keep snacks in our offices to offer students during office hours- it can be a great way to make them feel welcome (plus sometimes they really need a free snack- many students are food insecure).

Quote from: RatGuy on December 12, 2023, 06:23:26 AM

Quote from: Hegemony on December 12, 2023, 12:52:01 AMJeepers creepers. 'The woman, who asked to remain anonymous, previously told NBC News that Polito pursued her for nearly an entire semester, contacting her almost every day through email and texts and buying her gifts. "I felt preyed upon," she said."

And:

"...she also said she complained about how unconventional Polito's class was, noting he rarely stuck to the course topic, but would focus instead on Las Vegas."

(All from the NBC article.)

It's clear he had lost any perspective on appropriate behavior. And was somehow obsessed with Las Vegas.

I don't want to hijack, but what does a faculty member do when they hear someone else check one of the above boxes? For example, I've heard a guy (whose office and occasional classroom are near mine) say comments similar to the "a low cut outfit gets an A in my class). Or "what the F%^# is wrong with you?" when a student wears a Kiss shirt and doesn't listen to Kiss, or offers them candy when they come to mandatory office hours. To me, his behavior is unprofessional and objectionable — but what if they students don't find him such? I certainly don't think he's a conspiracy theorist or hoarding guns, but I do think he's capable of getting drunk with his male students and ogle sorority girls. What's elevates my concerns from prurient gossip to something worth documenting?

This. This is worth documenting.

QuotePolito pursued her for nearly an entire semester, contacting her almost every day through email and texts and buying her gifts. "I felt preyed upon."

Quote from: Puget on December 12, 2023, 06:34:20 AMI would absolutely report the comment about a low cut outfit getting an A-- in fact, in the US you are legally mandated to report any sexual harassment you witness to your institution's title 9 office.

FWIW, when he said that a low-cut shirt would make an A in his course, he was speaking to a male student. I have no way of knowing if he was referencing a specific student's outfit. And even if he were discussing student work (an essay about dating at the university, for example) I'm prudish enough to find that "see professors are dudes too" comment objectionable. Ditto commenting on any student outfit, even a KISS shirt.

As far as the candy goes, I'd call it "plying" rather than "offering."

At the very least, you document everything, including the date and anything else to put the day in context.

If the comments are sexualized or discriminatory, use your institutions written policy (all have one now) on how to handle such matters (usually there's a designated intake person).

If you are afraid that will escalate things too fast, contact the faculty member's chair or supervisory dean.

But in my person view, use the process. That's what its there for.

There's also, by the way, the faculty review process. if so-and-so the mild harasser is up for tenure, full, or even post tenure review, then mention it to T&P people.

I met Polito at a conference many moons ago, at a time when I was withdrawing my name from several searches because I'd accepted an offer. He asked what job I'd got, and when I told him, there was this long pause ... and then he told me he'd thought he was still a candidate for it.

I think he may have actually applied at my place several years later (I served on several search committees and the names run together). He wouldn't have cleared even the first hurdle, because the scholarship was thin, thin, thin. He had only one article that would have been on our list. It's in the "Pretty Damn Good" category, but the expectation is even a freshly minted PhD would already have something at that level (or better).

Quote from: RatGuy on December 12, 2023, 07:22:02 AM

Quote from: Puget on December 12, 2023, 06:34:20 AMI would absolutely report the comment about a low cut outfit getting an A-- in fact, in the US you are legally mandated to report any sexual harassment you witness to your institution's title 9 office.

FWIW, when he said that a low-cut shirt would make an A in his course, he was speaking to a male student. I have no way of knowing if he was referencing a specific student's outfit. And even if he were discussing student work (an essay about dating at the university, for example) I'm prudish enough to find that "see professors are dudes too" comment objectionable. Ditto commenting on any student outfit, even a KISS shirt.

As far as the candy goes, I'd call it "plying" rather than "offering."

How is it at all relevant that he was speaking to a male student? Sexual harassment can apply to any gender. Whether he was targeting the student he was talking to, or talking about other students, this is still reportable. What happens after you report is out of your hands-- it doesn't mean any action will be taken against him, but it will be documented, and you will have done your legal and ethical duty.

As for the rest, of course context matters. You know the context best, and I'm sure those things *could* be part of a problematic pattern. I was just saying in and of themselves they don't seem particularly problematic. I wouldn't go around assuming nefarious intent about every professor who has a candy bowl in their office.

Quote from: RatGuy on December 12, 2023, 07:22:02 AMFWIW, when he said that a low-cut shirt would make an A in his course, he was speaking to a male student. I have no way of knowing if he was referencing a specific student's outfit.

Nope. He was not directing these remarks to a male student. The student's name is given in the article — her first name is Kristin — I won't repeat her whole name because I don't want this discussion to come up if someone googles her. But her photo, which is also in the article, clearly shows that she is female.

'Kristin [surname] said she was sitting in the front row of Anthony Polito's business course at East Carolina University in Greenville, North Carolina, in 2016 when he walked in and made the remark. "He said to me that if I wore a shirt that low cut for the rest of the semester, I'd be sure to get an A," [student], now 28, told NBC News.'

As for what you do when you hear another faculty member make a comment like that — you say, "Whoa, dude, that's out of line. I don't want you to get in trouble for sexual harassment, and that remark could do it." They may laugh it off, but now they know someone has noticed.

And as for the students "not minding" the remarks — they may not show that they mind, but remember that people in less powerful positions — especially women — typically conceal their reactions because they know that voicing an objection will likely cause them even more problems. But that doesn't mean that they're not bothered. When a prof makes offensive remarks like that, a female student makes a rapid series of calculations. She must never be caught in a room alone with the man, because he will try more. She should not visit his office hours for that reason, so getting extra help in the class is now harder. She must not ask him to write a recommendation, because who knows what he'll try to ask for in return? In my experience — and the experience of many women — man who make sexual remarks do it repeatedly, and often try to go further. And the student knows that in some cases — as in this one — the harasser can turn vindictive, and violently so. Better to pretend to be unperturbed. But not saying anything in the moment doesn't mean the student feels it's all harmless and good sexual-harassment fun.