U of C drops SAT Requirement

[dismalist]

The U of C has dropped the SAT requirement for entry:

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/05/21/university-of-california-eliminates-sat-act-requirement-1285435

I am in two minds about this, probably more than two:

-I know there has to be rationing. Question is what the rationing device or devices should be.

-Upon her first standardized test, my wife was contacted that our daughter was a moron [not joking]. We knew that our daughter was not a moron. Proof is that she earned a PhD in Microbiology this past November.

This is serious for many people. Any further minds?

[Morden]

Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.

[the_walrus]

Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.

Neither does Britain.  But what we do have (at least in normal times), which the US lacks, is a pre-university credentialing system that is independent of secondary tuition.  It is not without its flaws (indeed, they are many), but what seems key to me is that the credential (an a-level with a grade) is awarded by an independent body to a very large degree in a transparent way, free from the influence of grade-grubbing children and parents, and the teachers who often have to please them (particularly at private schools).  Without the SAT/ACT, the US lacks any such measure/credential.  Perhaps the SAT/ACT are so flawed that they cannot serve this purpose even minimally, but it's hard for me not to see that the absence of it (or something like it) makes admission to elite universities even easier for the privileged to game.

[marshwiggle]

Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.

Neither does Britain.  But what we do have (at least in normal times), which the US lacks, is a pre-university credentialing system that is independent of secondary tuition.  It is not without its flaws (indeed, they are many), but what seems key to me is that the credential (an a-level with a grade) is awarded by an independent body to a very large degree in a transparent way, free from the influence of grade-grubbing children and parents, and the teachers who often have to please them (particularly at private schools).  Without the SAT/ACT, the US lacks any such measure/credential.  Perhaps the SAT/ACT are so flawed that they cannot serve this purpose even minimally, but it's hard for me not to see that the absence of it (or something like it) makes admission to elite universities even easier for the privileged to game.

My kids (in Canada) all did IB. Since it's also centrally graded, they all found the transition to university pretty easy. Several provinces also have provincial exams (OH NO! STANDARDIZED TESTS!!!!!-just to prempt this from Americans) so that individual schools can't just do whatever they want.

[Hibush]

The University of California has an unusual mandate to draw from the top 12.5% of the graduating high school class statewide. They only admit some of that cohort, so there is ranking even within that.

How do you tell whether a student is in that group with the vast range in academic ability and preparation across the different schools in California? There are some schools where most of the students are in the statewide top eighth. There are also schools where hardly any students can demonstrate that they are in the top eighth.

California already has a lot of legislation to determine what merits count towards being "top", so UC is quite constrained already.

One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.

[marshwiggle]

One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.

Eliminating the testing is kind of a left equivalent of climate change denial on thr right; if we don't have a quick fix for the underlying problem, just refuse to accept any data which supports it!

[spork]

One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.

Eliminating the testing is kind of a left equivalent of climate change denial on thr right; if we don't have a quick fix for the underlying problem, just refuse to accept any data which supports it!

You mean, like, not funding public schools through property taxes?

Just use zip codes to sort applicants. High correlation with SAT/ACT scores, and it eliminates the College Board and ETS as tax-exempt, rent-seeking middlemen.

[stemer]

Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.

The only difference is that, AFAIK, a high school graduate in Toronto will get the same education and be evaluated against the same standards as one in Montreal.
In the US, the high school education between a student in Alabama and Connecticut is day and night.

[Morden]

In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.

[stemer]

In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.

Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades? Are they better predictors of academic success or they fit the bill of "evaluation under a common standard"?

[marshwiggle]

In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.

Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?

As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.

Note that in provinces with provincial testing, the provincial exam score usually makes up a significant portion of the final grade in a course. (In Quebec, where I went to school, for all of the courses in the last 2 years of high school the provincial exam grade counted for 50% of the final course grade.)

Are they better predictors of academic success or they fit the bill of "evaluation under a common standard"?

To the best of my knowledge, there are no essays, or lists of extracurricular activities, etc. that are part of the admission process which I understand is common in the US, if that's what you mean. All that matters is incoming grades.

(Also, many universities have specific requirements for applicants from other provinces.)

[bacardiandlime]

In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.

Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?

As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.

do Canadian universities require applicants to submit an essay, or consider any other 'holistic' criteria? (athletics, volunteering, etc).

[Wahoo Redux]

Bravo U of C.  About time.

[Parasaurolophus]

Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.

The only difference is that, AFAIK, a high school graduate in Toronto will get the same education and be evaluated against the same standards as one in Montreal.
In the US, the high school education between a student in Alabama and Connecticut is day and night.

Yeah, that's true. Educational outcomes in Canada are incredibly even and robust across the board, even across racial/ethnic and income lines, as well as immigration status. (The one exception, unsurprisingly, is indigenous status, and that says a lot about the way educational and other resources are allocated.) It doesn't really matter where you go to elementary school, high school, or university (for undergrad). IIRC, our educational outcomes are the most even in the world (or, at least, they're among the most even).

To the best of my knowledge, there are no essays, or lists of extracurricular activities, etc. that are part of the admission process which I understand is common in the US, if that's what you mean. All that matters is incoming grades.

(Also, many universities have specific requirements for applicants from other provinces.)

I had to submit an essay and list of my extracurriculars when I applied to university. It's possible that was for scholarship rather than admissions consideration, but I don't remember.

[marshwiggle]

In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.

Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?

As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.

do Canadian universities require applicants to submit an essay, or consider any other 'holistic' criteria? (athletics, volunteering, etc).

Not in any place I've seen.

We also (to the best of my knowledge) don't have "legacy" admissions; it doesn't matter if any family members went there. The only thing along that line that I've come across is that children of current employees of institutions often get a tuition deduction as an employee perk.

Basically it's much less about cultural absorption and much more about explicit formal education.