Matthew J. Mayhew's IHE Hostage Video

[jimbogumbo]

So, question: do you really think Antifa is an organization? I know Proud Boys are, but all I've really seen of Antifa is furor in the suburbs over things that never happen. Clearly something more organized is going on in Portland and Seattle, but those cities have long been hotbeds of anarchists.

This seems like an incredible degree of wilful blindness. Antifa has been doing all kinds of violent stuff for years.

Oh come on. I KNOW anarchists have. I'm asking if Antifa is really a GROUP for god's sake. Just like the boogaloo folks are not a group so much as bunch of loners and extremely small groups. Do you have any idea how many times Antifa was going to show up based on FB and Nextdoor posts? And how many times (none) that they did?

[marshwiggle]

So, question: do you really think Antifa is an organization? I know Proud Boys are, but all I've really seen of Antifa is furor in the suburbs over things that never happen. Clearly something more organized is going on in Portland and Seattle, but those cities have long been hotbeds of anarchists.

This seems like an incredible degree of wilful blindness. Antifa has been doing all kinds of violent stuff for years.

Oh come on. I KNOW anarchists have. I'm asking if Antifa is really a GROUP for god's sake. Just like the boogaloo folks are not a group so much as bunch of loners and extremely small groups. Do you have any idea how many times Antifa was going to show up based on FB and Nextdoor posts? And how many times (none) that they did?

From a very quick google:

Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley

Their faces hidden behind black bandannas and hoodies, about 100 anarchists and antifa— "anti-fascist" — members barreled into a protest Sunday afternoon in Berkeley's Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park.

How much more is needed to be "a GROUP"?

[jimbogumbo]

So, question: do you really think Antifa is an organization? I know Proud Boys are, but all I've really seen of Antifa is furor in the suburbs over things that never happen. Clearly something more organized is going on in Portland and Seattle, but those cities have long been hotbeds of anarchists.

This seems like an incredible degree of wilful blindness. Antifa has been doing all kinds of violent stuff for years.

Oh come on. I KNOW anarchists have. I'm asking if Antifa is really a GROUP for god's sake. Just like the boogaloo folks are not a group so much as bunch of loners and extremely small groups. Do you have any idea how many times Antifa was going to show up based on FB and Nextdoor posts? And how many times (none) that they did?

From a very quick google:

Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley

Their faces hidden behind black bandannas and hoodies, about 100 anarchists and antifa— "anti-fascist" — members barreled into a protest Sunday afternoon in Berkeley's Martin Luther King Jr. Civic Center Park.

How much more is needed to be "a GROUP"?

Do you not see the word anarchists in your post? Does Antifa have a head? A structure? Did you not see my reference to boogaloo (also not a group) in my post?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are few people surprised that Berkeley can be added to the Portland and Seattle list of places where anarchists might show up.

My reference re FB and Nextdoor was to all the small US towns and suburbs where Antifa was going to show up and loot.

[mahagonny]

Maybe the dark net is the place to find out what antifa is up to. I don't expect them to take out an ad in the Wall Street Journal.

[jimbogumbo]

Maybe the dark net is the place to find out what antifa is up to. I don't expect them to take out an ad in the Wall Street Journal.

So, is that how you know they exist? Through the years we've had exposes of structure in organizations like the Mafia, KKK and ISIS. Big time arrests of leaders. But nothing similar with boogaloos or Antifa. That is the kind of evidence I'm looking for, and have never seen. Ever.

[Caracal]

But he has black supporters, and fervent ones. And there are other blacks, educated people, who feel as I do.

This is really incoherent. Trump traffics in anti-semitic rhetoric routinely. As a Jew, I know what he means when he yells about globalists.  He has prominent Jewish supporters, including several in his administration and even his family. That effects my opinion of those people, but it doesn't prove that he isn't an anti-semite. It would be convenient if bigots all wore armbands, wouldn't talk to people of other races or religions and only had supporters who were members of the group they identified with, but that's not actually the way the world works.

[mahagonny]

But he has black supporters, and fervent ones. And there are other blacks, educated people, who feel as I do.

This is really incoherent. Trump traffics in anti-semitic rhetoric routinely. As a Jew, I know what he means when he yells about globalists.  He has prominent Jewish supporters, including several in his administration and even his family. That effects my opinion of those people, but it doesn't prove that he isn't an anti-semite. It would be convenient if bigots all wore armbands, wouldn't talk to people of other races or religions and only had supporters who were members of the group they identified with, but that's not actually the way the world works.

I'm not saying Trump isn't a bigot. I'm not taking up that case. He can certainly be a bigot by your definition or that of anyone who has their reasons for proclaiming him guilty. It's one way he is assessed. For me the question that's just as needing of attention is why do so many not realize that the pastime of calling anyone with white skin a bigot because they don't agree with some public or government policy issue opinion of theirs  has given us Donald Trump and his ilk. The history of that trend predates his political career by many years. And to some degree, they asked for it. I think people who throw the 'r' word around in order to  feel proud of their supposed enlightened state are arrogant and irresponsible. At the least, they're making a serious mistake.
If you listen to Coleman Hughes, he explains well how the feeling that white people get from repentance over the legacy of abducted, enslaved Africans in America is a powerful panacea for them psychologically, whether there's any real constructive purpose to it or not, or irrespective of the confusion and needless accusation it generates.
And, for that matter, you think that he's a flaming bigot, and the black people who will vote for  him don't see that? Or is it that they see it, but it's a minor issue? They don't all get to be in his cabinet. He can't bribe them all. So it could just be your assessment of Trump is not the only one sane people are making.

[Caracal]

And, for that matter, you think that he's a flaming bigot, and the black people who will vote for  him don't see that? Or is it that they see it, but it's a minor issue? They don't all get to be in his cabinet. He can't bribe them all. So it could just be your assessment of Trump is not the only one sane people are making.

I guess this argument seems convincing if you exist within a framework where you assume that certain groups of people all act and feel and think alike. Therefore when you find that eight percent of black people voted for Trump, you imagine that this is some powerful rebuttal to the idea that he's a racist.


For someone who is always complaining about identity policies, you are engaging in a particularly ugly and reductionist form of it. I can look at what a person says and does and make judgements about whether they are a racist or an anti-semite. There's not an official council of Jews or Black people that have to meet and unanimously endorse my views before they can be broached in public.

[marshwiggle]

Maybe the dark net is the place to find out what antifa is up to. I don't expect them to take out an ad in the Wall Street Journal.

So, is that how you know they exist? Through the years we've had exposes of structure in organizations like the Mafia, KKK and ISIS. Big time arrests of leaders. But nothing similar with boogaloos or Antifa. That is the kind of evidence I'm looking for, and have never seen. Ever.

But the media will immediately call any right-wing group, organized or otherwise, "white supremacists", "white nationalists", or "far right", but they rarely call Antifa or other left-wing group "anarchists". They get a free pass. (Or sometimes, the media even make the argument that these left-wing groups were infiltrated by right-wing extremists. Bottom line: Only right-wing extremists are dangerous. A left-wing Molotov cocktail is different than a right wing Molotov cocktail.)

[writingprof]

A left-wing Molotov cocktail is different than a right wing Molotov cocktail.)

I would argue that a Molotov cocktail is inherently left-wing.  (Molotov was a Stalinist.)  Here on the right, we prefer plain old guns.

[jimbogumbo]

A left-wing Molotov cocktail is different than a right wing Molotov cocktail.)

I would argue that a Molotov cocktail is inherently left-wing.  (Molotov was a Stalinist.)  Here on the right, we prefer plain old guns.

I agree with writingprof 100%, and would put his response in the Posting HOF if I were smart enough to do so. I also want to go on record that all molotov cocktails, arson, firearms, bats, and frozen bottles of water are dangerous regardless of the political beliefs of the flinger, starter, shooter, whacker or flinger.

[mahagonny]

And, for that matter, you think that he's a flaming bigot, and the black people who will vote for  him don't see that? Or is it that they see it, but it's a minor issue? They don't all get to be in his cabinet. He can't bribe them all. So it could just be your assessment of Trump is not the only one sane people are making.

I guess this argument seems convincing if you exist within a framework where you assume that certain groups of people all act and feel and think alike. Therefore when you find that eight percent of black people voted for Trump, you imagine that this is some powerful rebuttal to the idea that he's a racist.

Agreed, it's no rebuttal. Just an interesting fact. Or a fact I'm interested in.

[marshwiggle]

And, for that matter, you think that he's a flaming bigot, and the black people who will vote for  him don't see that? Or is it that they see it, but it's a minor issue? They don't all get to be in his cabinet. He can't bribe them all. So it could just be your assessment of Trump is not the only one sane people are making.

I guess this argument seems convincing if you exist within a framework where you assume that certain groups of people all act and feel and think alike. Therefore when you find that eight percent of black people voted for Trump, you imagine that this is some powerful rebuttal to the idea that he's a racist.

Agreed, it's no rebuttal. Just an interesting fact. Or a fact I'm interested in.

It's an interesting fact because it illustrates that whatever many people think is the most obvious reason to vote (or not) for someone isn't the most important consideration for a significant number of people. Identity politics assumes that everyone in a particular group has the same set of priorities.

[writingprof]

Identity politics assumes that everyone in a particular group has the same set of priorities.

Weird.  So does racism.

[marshwiggle]

Identity politics assumes that everyone in a particular group has the same set of priorities.

Weird.  So does racism.

Of course.