The Moral Deficiencies of a Liberal Education

[downer]

The Moral Deficiencies of a Liberal Education https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/opinion/israel-hamas-universities.html

Interesting piece but mostly wrong I think. The main mistake is because ethics courses don't in fact make college students any morally better. There is no evidence for the claim that they do. If morality is to be taught it has to be earlier on.

[Sun_Worshiper]

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd should spend a little time outside the fringes of elite ivy league schools and see what life is like at the publics that most students attend.

[marshwiggle]

This flies in the face of what a "liberal education" should be. Liberal education should be built around honing critical thinking skills and moral and logical reasoning so students can emerge as engaged citizens. The American Association of Colleges and Universities has described a liberal education as one that "empowers individuals with core knowledge and transferable skills and cultivates social responsibility and a strong sense of ethics and values." This certainly is not the full vision, but even with this definition, it is very hard to recognize that what we are now offering as a college education meets even this standard.

The inherent problem in this definition (underlined by the current culture wars) is that it doesn't highlight the fact that what constitutes "social responsibility" and "ethics and values" is not universally accepted. Students need to learn exactly why these issues are so difficult, rather than being led to assume that the "right answer" is already clearly apparent to every "good" person.

[spork]

The Moral Deficiencies of a Liberal Education https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/17/opinion/israel-hamas-universities.html

Interesting piece but mostly wrong I think. The main mistake is because ethics courses don't in fact make college students any morally better. There is no evidence for the claim that they do. If morality is to be taught it has to be earlier on.

He makes the "all students must take the kind of courses I teach" evidence-free argument that is typical of academics.

[Wahoo Redux]

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd should spend a little time outside the fringes of elite ivy league schools and see what life is like at the publics that most students attend.

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd has no interest in actually surveying the effects of education on anyone. 

They have their schtick and they will stick to it because it is very effective for screwing certain psyches and answers a number of other psyches' cognitive biases. 

[ciao_yall]

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd should spend a little time outside the fringes of elite ivy league schools and see what life is like at the publics that most students attend.

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd has no interest in actually surveying the effects of education on anyone. 

They have their schtick and they will stick to it because it is very effective for screwing certain psyches and answers a number of other psyches' cognitive biases. 

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" bozos (1) Have their own college degrees and enjoy the social and economic benefits of such (2) Will see to it that their own offspring get a college degree to enjoy said social and economic benefits, and (3) Had no problem with higher education when professors were a bunch of old white men.

 

[marshwiggle]

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd should spend a little time outside the fringes of elite ivy league schools and see what life is like at the publics that most students attend.

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" crowd has no interest in actually surveying the effects of education on anyone. 

They have their schtick and they will stick to it because it is very effective for screwing certain psyches and answers a number of other psyches' cognitive biases. 

The "higher education is indoctrinating our kids" bozos (1) Have their own college degrees and enjoy the social and economic benefits of such (2) Will see to it that their own offspring get a college degree to enjoy said social and economic benefits, and (3) Had no problem with higher education when professors were a bunch of old white men.

 

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

[Wahoo Redux]

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

More or less, yes, they are the same programs, probably even the same or very similar classes.  There may be more focus on minority issues, authors, scenarios, etc., now, but yeah, college hasn't changed much since I was an undergrad in the '80s and early '90s.

[marshwiggle]

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

More or less, yes, they are the same programs, probably even the same or very similar classes.  There may be more focus on minority issues, authors, scenarios, etc., now, but yeah, college hasn't changed much since I was an undergrad in the '80s and early '90s.

I would have assumed most of those people would have put their kids in business or STEM.

[Wahoo Redux]

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

More or less, yes, they are the same programs, probably even the same or very similar classes.  There may be more focus on minority issues, authors, scenarios, etc., now, but yeah, college hasn't changed much since I was an undergrad in the '80s and early '90s.

I would have assumed most of those people would have put their kids in business or STEM.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Their kids probably decided on their own majors.  What is your point?  Whatever, STEM will have advanced, of course, but the rest is much the same.  And it's the lib arts which broils conservative brainpans anyway which, if you've noticed, is the topic of this thread.

[marshwiggle]

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

More or less, yes, they are the same programs, probably even the same or very similar classes.  There may be more focus on minority issues, authors, scenarios, etc., now, but yeah, college hasn't changed much since I was an undergrad in the '80s and early '90s.

I would have assumed most of those people would have put their kids in business or STEM.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Their kids probably decided on their own majors.  What is your point?  Whatever, STEM will have advanced, of course, but the rest is much the same. And it's the lib arts which broils conservative brainpans anyway which, if you've noticed, is the topic of this thread.

That's why I would be surprised if those were the programs they would direct their kids to.

[Wahoo Redux]

Honest questions: Do you think the programs those people took were the same ones they're disparaging now? And are the ones they're going to make sure their offspring get are the ones they're disparaging now?

More or less, yes, they are the same programs, probably even the same or very similar classes.  There may be more focus on minority issues, authors, scenarios, etc., now, but yeah, college hasn't changed much since I was an undergrad in the '80s and early '90s.

I would have assumed most of those people would have put their kids in business or STEM.

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Their kids probably decided on their own majors.  What is your point?  Whatever, STEM will have advanced, of course, but the rest is much the same. And it's the lib arts which broils conservative brainpans anyway which, if you've noticed, is the topic of this thread.

That's why I would be surprised if those were the programs they would direct their kids to.

Why do you presume their kids are "directed" anywhere?  As I said, it's up to the student to declare a major.  And all majors have a lib arts component in American and I believe Canadian colleges. 

Don't just make up stuff you want to be true, Marshmonster.

[treeoflife]

The collapse of the humanities is a reality, it is also a trend that is going to continue. We all know the numbers and we all know that the future includes closures of not only programs but also entire liberal arts institutions. An institution that needs to attract students to survive can not afford to overlook students opinions if you alienate most potential students there will be a price.

[Wahoo Redux]

The collapse of the humanities is a reality, it is also a trend that is going to continue. We all know the numbers and we all know that the future includes closures of not only programs but also entire liberal arts institutions. An institution that needs to attract students to survive can not afford to overlook students opinions if you alienate most potential students there will be a price.

We know all that.

Is there a reason you posted it here?

[marshwiggle]

The collapse of the humanities is a reality, it is also a trend that is going to continue. We all know the numbers and we all know that the future includes closures of not only programs but also entire liberal arts institutions. An institution that needs to attract students to survive can not afford to overlook students opinions if you alienate most potential students there will be a price.

We know all that.

Is there a reason you posted it here?

It's a double-edged sword. The way for programs (and disciplines) to survive is to convince students to want to take them. Any discipline that can get that kind of uptake will be OK, but it's not something that anyone can take for granted. (Or they do so at their peril.) The days of just making everyone have to take certain things and thus keeping those disciplines viable are increasingly in the past.