I have an issue with professors who talk to students (undergraduate OR graduate) like children.
I don't have a top-down approach when it comes to talking to students and colleagues, and I don't think it is necessary to have one to maintain authority and credibility.
I treat people like human beings and it serves me well.
I do believe that many academics should learn to treat others on equal footing. The person you're trying to crush without even knowing their record/background might be your next Nobel prize winner, and you might not know it.
It's absolutely possible to give advice, recommendations without being arrogant.
If there's one thing that pisses me off about academics and academia, I would say it's that. Lots of academics lack "people" or "soft" skills that are increasingly needed in our world.
Just because you've had it rough does not mean you need to make it rough for those who come after you. It should be the opposite.
And yes, you can treat people like people and still be competent. I witness it everday.
Some of the most successful academics I've had the pleasure to work with had good "people", "soft" skills. True leadership.
Thank God, I've found a network of excellent academics who are proving everyday that it's possible to treat colleagues and students with collegiality.
Thank God I have colleagues, full professors, and others in the field that talk to me like the adult and competent woman that I am.
/end of rant
FWIW, some college students can't handle being talked to like adults. By that, I mean they can't handle any discussions where their opinions are challenged or involves accountability.
I often talk to my (young) child as if she were an adult. She deserves it, much of the time. I talk to my significantly older students like younger children sometimes because they acted in ways that led to them deserving it. I am not insulting or degrading. Let them think I'm a meanie ( I am not) who they can curse when they win the Nobel, which I predict, none will, though a few percent will do quite well. More or less they are the ones who only needed light critique from professors and were conversed with as adults most of the time.
As far as colleagues go, I agree that it would be a very rare situation in which Id speak to an adult as I would a child. Usually it would only be if I think they acted like an obnoxious jerk.
But Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
Maturity is an ideal; it's not this person as opposed to that person. I heard that one should talk to any person as though they are what you hope they will become. Or maybe talk to that person's best representation.
Certain things are lost on college students. They have limited sense of irony and things like self-deprecation. When you have one student who's a lot older than the others it is striking, sometimes, how their reactions are different from the others', and showing greater sensibility.
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 20, 2021, 06:20:16 PMBut Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
I can't help but wonder if this is in response to some of the comments I made on another thread of hers.
Quote from: adel9216 on November 20, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
I have an issue with professors who talk to students (undergraduate OR graduate) like children.
I don't have a top-down approach when it comes to talking to students and colleagues, and I don't think it is necessary to have one to maintain authority and credibility.
I treat people like human beings and it serves me well.
............
Are children not human beings...?
Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 20, 2021, 06:20:16 PMBut Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
I can't help but wonder if this is in response to some of the comments I made on another thread of hers.
+1
I had the same thought when I saw the thread title.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on November 20, 2021, 10:09:56 PM
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 20, 2021, 06:20:16 PMBut Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
I can't help but wonder if this is in response to some of the comments I made on another thread of hers.
+1
I had the same thought when I saw the thread title.
M.
In reading the thread from last year and the interaction with polly, I am absolutely certain this thread is a passive aggressive response to what I said when she asked about guest editing. Having written a book, I would have echoed polly's advice in that thread. The only difference is that I'm a tenured full professor at a R1, so the OP can't just dismiss my comments as projections of a failed academic.
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: mamselle on November 20, 2021, 10:09:56 PM
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 20, 2021, 06:20:16 PMBut Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
I can't help but wonder if this is in response to some of the comments I made on another thread of hers.
+1
I had the same thought when I saw the thread title.
M.
In reading the thread from last year and the interaction with polly, I am absolutely certain this thread is a passive aggressive response to what I said when she asked about guest editing. Having written a book, I would have echoed polly's advice in that thread. The only difference is that I'm a tenured full professor at a R1, so the OP can't just dismiss my comments as projections of a failed academic.
Wow, is that ever a loaded phrase!
Quote from: mahagonny on November 21, 2021, 04:36:21 AM
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 11:10:34 PM
Quote from: mamselle on November 20, 2021, 10:09:56 PM
Quote from: mleok on November 20, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on November 20, 2021, 06:20:16 PMBut Adel, could you explain a scenario in which a colleague spoke to you as if you were a child? I am trying to get a sense of what you are getting at.
I can't help but wonder if this is in response to some of the comments I made on another thread of hers.
+1
I had the same thought when I saw the thread title.
M.
In reading the thread from last year and the interaction with polly, I am absolutely certain this thread is a passive aggressive response to what I said when she asked about guest editing. Having written a book, I would have echoed polly's advice in that thread. The only difference is that I'm a tenured full professor at a R1, so the OP can't just dismiss my comments as projections of a failed academic.
Wow, is that ever a loaded phrase!
To be clear, I don't consider polly to be a failed academic, I think that people with STEM training like her are often better off working in industry, and many of my former students have chosen a similar route. I am simply distilling what seems to be the insinuation in this post by adel in reference to polly.
Quote from: adel9216 on April 28, 2020, 06:05:57 AMYou are condescending and arrogant, and you come off as a know-it-all when in fact, all I can see is how frustrated you feel about your life and you're just lashing out on me because you take me as a target. You clearly need to do some introspection to understand some of the reasons why you feel that need. It has nothing to do about me at the end of the day.
I think a picture is now painted, but I await a response from Adel.
I perceive adel to be difficult.
Quote from: adel9216 on November 20, 2021, 12:56:47 PM
The person you're trying to crush without even knowing their record/background might be your next Nobel prize winner, and you might not know it.
Unlikely.
Reminds me of the character from "Men in Black" who says "We're the best of the best of the best. Sir!"
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
The parable of the super eager grad student (as seen here and elsewhere with other individuals ) goes like this. Super eager grad student wants to do everything possible to get ahead, and the process starts now! The super eager grad student asks for advice on whether the latest new shiny thing is helpful. Others say it depends, and cautions super eager grad student to remain focused on the finish line (defending a dissertation/thesis) and don't get lost on the way (journal editing, more teaching, facilitating workshops, graduate student government). Super eager grad student is not content with focusing on their thesis/dissertation or a paper that could get published. Super eager grad student wants to do everything and everyone who cautions them is just a hater. Super eager grad student eventually struggles to finish due to lack of focus on the finish line.
We should have a thread on students studentsplaining to professors how ACTUALLY their advice is stupid and they already have it all figured out so they aren't sure why they bothered asking us old stupid people anyway.
Quote from: Puget on November 22, 2021, 02:58:51 PM
We should have a thread on students studentsplaining to professors how ACTUALLY their advice is stupid and they already have it all figured out so they aren't sure why they bothered asking us old stupid people anyway.
Does it include the students who come back after three years of failing to get into Med School to ask what I think they should do? (Why would you ask now? You have completely rejected all my advice previously - what has changed?)
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
GCF'd translation? I doubt it is greatest common factored but that's all I could think of/find online. lol
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 22, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
GCF'd translation? I doubt it is greatest common factored but that's all I could think of/find online. lol
Goodbye cruel fora. An old joke here/old version for posters who (at least claim to) leave forever when they don't like the answers they got to their questions here.
Quote from: FishProf on November 22, 2021, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Puget on November 22, 2021, 02:58:51 PM
We should have a thread on students studentsplaining to professors how ACTUALLY their advice is stupid and they already have it all figured out so they aren't sure why they bothered asking us old stupid people anyway.
Does it include the students who come back after three years of failing to get into Med School to ask what I think they should do? (Why would you ask now? You have completely rejected all my advice previously - what has changed?)
(Slightly) older and (perhaps) a bit wiser?
Quote from: Puget on November 22, 2021, 06:26:11 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 22, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
GCF'd translation? I doubt it is greatest common factored but that's all I could think of/find online. lol
Goodbye cruel fora. An old joke here/old version for posters who (at least claim to) leave forever when they don't like the answers they got to their questions here.
It's funny how different online communities develop their own idioms for this phenomenon. In the fanfiction communities I used to frequent back in the livejournal days, this was called a 'flounce'.
I'm a little torn. Looking at the past posts, OP does seem to have a bit of an attitude--remarks like "Hello, just because I posted here doesn't mean I didn't ask my advisor" read at roughly the maturity level of "So what?", "Ha!" and "So's your old man." On the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
In the end, a lot of the old bromides apply--take what you can use, leave the rest; reap what you sow; and in general, decide what's worth more energy--convincing someone they're wrong, wrong, wrong, or heading to the kitchen to make a nice sandwich.
Quote from: Puget on November 22, 2021, 06:26:11 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 22, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
GCF'd translation? I doubt it is greatest common factored but that's all I could think of/find online. lol
Goodbye cruel fora. An old joke here/old version for posters who (at least claim to) leave forever when they don't like the answers they got to their questions here.
Oh, right. I was wondering too.
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AM
I'm a little torn. Looking at the past posts, OP does seem to have a bit of an attitude--remarks like "Hello, just because I posted here doesn't mean I didn't ask my advisor" read at roughly the maturity level of "So what?", "Ha!" and "So's your old man." On the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
In the end, a lot of the old bromides apply--take what you can use, leave the rest; reap what you sow; and in general, decide what's worth more energy--convincing someone they're wrong, wrong, wrong, or heading to the kitchen to make a nice sandwich.
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue (even in retrospect, I think that's a fair assessment) when I first joined the old forum. But the joke's on him, because (1) I'm generally amenable to an internet fight, and (2) I bear grudges--no matter how minor--forever, even though I don't act on them, and every time I do something to prove him wrong, I think of him and smirk in self-satisfaction (that's his punishment).
What I always appreciated about the fora is the clear-eyed advice. Maybe it's a little rough at times but if you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the question in the first place.
I found the fora looking to learn more about Higher Ed. And I have learned a lot and made new friends.
I absolutely get that response, Parasaurolophus. I've often gotten a kick out of imagining my adversaries, real and imagined, in person or on the web, stomping their feet and declaiming, "By the gods, they SUCCEEDED?! Drat and curses!" As I'm certain happens in real life.
ETA: ciao-yall makes a fair point--actually, I think it's why I didn't, and still don't, ask very much. And what am I here to do? Beats me. I mean, some general rubbish about helping to make this place the way I'd like it to be, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Maybe if I ever get to Senior Member, I'll figure it out.
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AMOn the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
What specific examples of responses to the OP exhibit a tone that sucks?
De...gustibus, or something--it's also fair to say that people have different perceptions of different people/persona/avatars, etc.
Just for the record, I know larryc in real life and found him to be very kind in person.
I know he likes to spout short, pithy observations but they're usually based in truth, however un-sugar-coated they might be.
I've met other folks in real life whom I've liked, only to find their online personae unimaginably difficult; it's a range of possible matches/mis-matches.
Having gone to many meetups (when we used to do those), there are several people I (and many others!) know first-hand, in many different places, so I'd say it's a fair mix.
M.
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 23, 2021, 08:35:57 AM
What I always appreciated about the fora is the clear-eyed advice. Maybe it's a little rough at times but if you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the question in the first place.
I found the fora looking to learn more about Higher Ed. And I have learned a lot and made new friends.
That's the reason why I'm here. I gave up on my bid for academia long ago, but the Fora helps me to keep an eye on what's going on in that world. And there are some nice people here.
Quote from: mleok on November 23, 2021, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AMOn the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
What specific examples of responses to the OP exhibit a tone that sucks?
I'm going to go with "Great! How is studying for those comps coming?," circa April 28, 2020. Accepting Mamselle's point about taste (if my very poor Latin skills serve me), as well as other points made about finding nice people, making friends, and all that clear-eyed, unvarnished truth stuff.
One thing I've often puzzled about: the phrase "They don't (or didn't, if they've passed away, for example) suffer fools gladly," often said with admiration and wry nostalgia. IS that always such a great characteristic?
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 09:36:33 AM
One thing I've often puzzled about: the phrase "They don't (or didn't, if they've passed away, for example) suffer fools gladly," often said with admiration and wry nostalgia. IS that always such a great characteristic?
For me, (and I'd guess for many others), I'm usually not willing to be the meanie who gives people the comeuppance they deserve, but I'm (often secretly) glad to see that there are others who are. So, to answer the question, it would be a pretty brutal world if everyone were like that, but we definitely need a critical mass of them to save us from creeping mediocrity (and worse).
(Think of how many times we talk about how some student behaviour will cost them "in the real world". That's a sign of us not wanting to be the ones to teach those lessons.)
I'm really late to this thread, because I thought, at first, it was about colleagues who spoke to everyone with an elementary school teacher's tone of voice. I suffered under a former VP who ALWAYS spoke like he/she was in front of a class of 2nd graders--even in small meetings, and I came here ready to vent my story.
Now I see that is not what this thread is about. The OP should have used the subject title "Talking to students and colleagues, with disdain."
Quote from: ergative on November 23, 2021, 01:01:52 AM
Quote from: Puget on November 22, 2021, 06:26:11 PM
Quote from: TreadingLife on November 22, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 11:12:19 AM
It appears that OP has GCF'd.
GCF'd translation? I doubt it is greatest common factored but that's all I could think of/find online. lol
Goodbye cruel fora. An old joke here/old version for posters who (at least claim to) leave forever when they don't like the answers they got to their questions here.
It's funny how different online communities develop their own idioms for this phenomenon. In the fanfiction communities I used to frequent back in the livejournal days, this was called a 'flounce'.
As King George III said, "You'll be back."
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 09:36:33 AM
Quote from: mleok on November 23, 2021, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AMOn the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
What specific examples of responses to the OP exhibit a tone that sucks?
I'm going to go with "Great! How is studying for those comps coming?," circa April 28, 2020.
That's the best that you can do? I guess we're expected to treat people seeking advice like they're snowflakes, unique and fragile.
Quote from: mleok on November 23, 2021, 11:42:28 AM
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 09:36:33 AM
Quote from: mleok on November 23, 2021, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AMOn the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck--it kept my postings down to about 25 even though I lurked on the old threads since about 2009 or so. Plenty of rudesbies and mockingbird-killers who got a kick out of handing someone their a$$ when they asked a fairly innocent question, to be sure. That kind of thing used to be much more a part of the culture than it is now, I think.
What specific examples of responses to the OP exhibit a tone that sucks?
I'm going to go with "Great! How is studying for those comps coming?," circa April 28, 2020.
That's the best that you can do? I guess we're expected to treat people seeking advice like they're snowflakes, unique and fragile.
I guess it loses something out of context. It's worth remembering that OP said on a couple of occasions, "I asked you to stop harassing me," and these requests were ignored. Now, one could go back and forth a long, long time as to whether or not OP was truly harassed, but in this case, they believed they were, and I think the respectful thing to do would be to, well, stop.
My wild and completely crazy idea? Treat people seeking advice like people seeking advice.
And come to think of it--we are all pretty freaking unique, although we might not all be as fragile as the Old Man's important Christmas Story award.
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 01:34:52 PMMy wild and completely crazy idea? Treat people seeking advice like people seeking advice.
I would like to think we do that, we're just not in the business of dispensing affirmation for what we consider to be foolhardy actions.
Quote from: mleok on November 23, 2021, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 01:34:52 PMMy wild and completely crazy idea? Treat people seeking advice like people seeking advice.
I would like to think we do that, we're just not in the business of dispensing affirmation for what we consider to be foolhardy actions.
Sure, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. Feel free to say it's the wrong question, or suggest that the poster might want to rethink some of their ideas and assumptions.
I didn't really follow the beginnings of this, so maybe the original response was in that vein and OP just took offense. Things have been a lot more pleasant here of late, mostly because posters who seemed to not be able to distinguish between honest advice and unpleasant personal attacks have gone elsewhere. Sometimes people take well meaning advice as an attack and that can't be helped, but worth making sure we aren't exacerbating things by being mean.
Quote from: Caracal on November 24, 2021, 06:52:00 AMSure, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it.
Are we being a jerk about it? I don't think anyone is being intentionally mean. At worst, it's an expression of frustration at the OP's chronic inability to accept advice she doesn't wish to hear without lashing out in response.
Quote from: little bongo on November 23, 2021, 07:32:02 AM
I'm a little torn. Looking at the past posts, OP does seem to have a bit of an attitude--remarks like "Hello, just because I posted here doesn't mean I didn't ask my advisor" read at roughly the maturity level of "So what?", "Ha!" and "So's your old man." On the other hand, yeah, the tone of some forumites does indeed suck
Quoting my [trimmed] post on another thread ... maybe look at this thread?
Quote from: hungry_ghost on November 22, 2021, 04:35:32 PM
In response to OP's query,
Quote from: adel9216 on November 19, 2021, 01:06:15 PM
what should I be aware of before accepting? What does it entail exactly?
traductio wrote this extremely thoughtful response. Para 1: warning signs to avoid. Para. 2 is an excellent explanation of what this job would entail, noting potential pros (if the co-editor is a mentor, this could be a great learning opportunity) and cons (if they stick the junior person with all the work, not so much). Para. 3, another wise warning, which doesn't say don't do it, but offers a point to consider.
Quote from: traductio on November 19, 2021, 01:19:34 PM
First question -- is the journal legit? If it's not one you're immediately familiar with, it might not be worth your time at this point (you're a grad student if I remember right -- please correct me if I'm mistaken). There are a lot of sketchy journals that send out invitations to guest edit an issue that I ignore completely. It's a lot of work, and if the journal is junk, it's a lot of wasted work.
Second question -- you say co-editor. Is the other co-editor a big name in your field? It's nice to have your name associated with a big name, but it's still a lot of work. What will be the co-editor's role? Who will be responsible for managing the peer review process? Who will be responsible for interacting with authors? The one way that co-editing a journal issue would be worth it, in my experience, is if your co-editor is a big name scholar who's not going to stick you with all the work. If it's a scholar who takes their role of mentoring seriously, this could be an excellent opportunity, both to see the nitty-gritty of peer review and for the networking possibilities the co-editor can enable.
Otherwise, it's more work than you can imagine, and more importantly, worth less to hiring committees (to choose a useful metric) than a complete dissertation.
In response, OP didn't say. "Thank you for taking the time, all this is good to know!" Instead, they singled out the perfectly correct statement that co-editing a special journal issue is not as valuable as a done dissertation, ignored the insights into what one might (or might not) gain from this opportunity, and offered this petulant response:
Quote from: adel9216 on November 19, 2021, 03:11:23 PM
I am capable of completing my dissertation. Just wanted to let you know.
Then, OP started THIS thread, admonishing us not to talk to students and colleagues like children.
Quote from: mleok on November 24, 2021, 08:53:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on November 24, 2021, 06:52:00 AMSure, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it.
Are we being a jerk about it? I don't think anyone is being intentionally mean. At worst, it's an expression of frustration at the OP's chronic inability to accept advice she doesn't wish to hear without lashing out in response.
Yeah, I wasn't saying anyone necessarily was.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 24, 2021, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
This surprises me. larryc was always one of my favorite posters on the old CHE fora.
Quote from: lightning on November 24, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 24, 2021, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
This surprises me. larryc was always one of my favorite posters on the old CHE fora.
My guess is that first impressions matter a lot. If the first time someone responds to us, they agree, we probably tend to look on them favourably afterwards. If they disagree, and maybe with a bit of sarcasm, then we are on guard from then on.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2021, 01:09:39 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 24, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 24, 2021, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
This surprises me. larryc was always one of my favorite posters on the old CHE fora.
My guess is that first impressions matter a lot. If the first time someone responds to us, they agree, we probably tend to look on them favourably afterwards. If they disagree, and maybe with a bit of sarcasm, then we are on guard from then on.
Lar had a good wit but he was very condescending and opinionated, he was a surprisingly arrogant guy considering that we are all just regular ol' academics here, and he assumed he knew a lot more than he did. I had a throw down with him on the CHE fora over a fairly mild question, mainly because of his responses stating the obvious. Some posters I read only by accident when I am not paying attention to screennames----old Larry is one of them.
Quote from: lightning on November 24, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 24, 2021, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
This surprises me. larryc was always one of my favorite posters on the old CHE fora.
Although they had very different personas, larryc was kind of like polly to me--knowledgeable and well worth paying attention to, but could sometimes be really hard to take.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 24, 2021, 01:09:39 PM
Quote from: lightning on November 24, 2021, 12:08:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on November 24, 2021, 10:36:24 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 23, 2021, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah. larryc was a total dick entirely out of the blue
I never liked that guy.
This surprises me. larryc was always one of my favorite posters on the old CHE fora.
My guess is that first impressions matter a lot. If the first time someone responds to us, they agree, we probably tend to look on them favourably afterwards. If they disagree, and maybe with a bit of sarcasm, then we are on guard from then on.
I'm sure that's true. For me, it wasn't really a question of disagreement. He just picked up on a self-description I offered in passing while responding to something and insisted on arguing at length that it was inaccurate, while inferring conclusions about whether I belonged on the CHE Fora.
My subsequent interactions with him have been fine, but yes, the way a community first responds to your presence has a big impact on your subsequent perception of that community.
But, as you know, I don't really mind a knock-down drag-out fight.
One supposes the ticket to surviving the fora is having a short memory.
Someone I know in another online community figured out who I was on the fora and apologized profusely for being a schmuck to me at one point. I barely remembered the username, much less remembered it with any negative frisson.
I should clarify, I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone else, but feeling as if I'd been a bit too pointed in a couple of exchanges myself.
It was my own tone I was apologizing for, I wasn't trying to make observations about any other posters.
Apologies if that wasn't clear.
M.
With regard to the OP and their petulance--yes, it's pretty clear that they stopped seeking advice and just chastised everyone who gave the "wrong" advice. My advice probably would have been pretty similar in this case. Once the seeker of advice becomes, well, like the OP, it seems the only two choices are to continue to engage or to sign off with something like, "I see you've made your decision, then. Best of luck to you" (or to not sign off at all, of course).
If one continues to engage, then it pretty much becomes a baiting contest, which is what happened on the previous thread. Then one has to decide if it's worth it to attain the title of Master Baiter.
As for larryc, well, I didn't think he was the Mayor of Condescension Town, exactly, but probably served on the Board of Selectmen.
Quote from: little bongo on November 29, 2021, 09:34:34 AM
Then one has to decide if it's worth it to attain the title of Master Baiter.
*snicker*
I noticed this problem with grade school teachers. Some of them can't "turn it off" after work and then talk to others like their little children, especially when they are angry or serious. Anyhow, virtually any teacher I have known as a student myself or a colleague at work has been pleasant with me. I have only met a handful of difficult people.
As for "soft skills", well I got a few things to say about that. When somebody says "I have people skills" then I translate that as "I can't handle rigorous academics and for that reason I have a chip on my shoulder". These are usually the rudest people I have met. These are the people in HR and management who have held back my career ambitions. They are looking for clones of themselves and can't comprehend or value the "hard skills". They are paid too much money for knowing how to work a room, shake hands, talk sports and BS their way through life. If I ever become dictator, I will send them back to the farms like Mao once did. To understand what I am saying then just pick up any bestselling book about job hunting. They never will tell you to learn a foreign language, higher level mathematics or computer algorithms. It's all about marketing yourself and telling people what they want to hear.
OK, rant over.
Quote from: Anselm on December 13, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
I noticed this problem with grade school teachers. Some of them can't "turn it off" after work and then talk to others like their little children, especially when they are angry or serious.
I knew a daycare worker (later junior high teacher) who was like this. In gatherings of adults she would instinctively begin issuing orders and trying to "organize" things. It wasn't just force of habit from work, though. She was very domineering person by nature. In relatively casual social situations she could usually get away with it by turning on the charm. But if anybody tried telling
her what to do, or even offered unsolicited advice, she would get very angry indeed. Her life consisted largely of a long series of altercations and quarrels with others. She fought with every boss she ever had, and seldom lasted more than a year or two at any one job.
Mary Wesley's book, 'A Sensible Life,' has a character like that.
She's seen at the beginning organizing things for an ex-pat community of vacationers in France, just across the channel.
Thirty years or so later, she turns up again, master-minding a barbecue being given by the book's protagonist, from her wheelchair.*
No-one knows her name, she's just called "The Born Leader" throughout the book.
M.
I guess the flip side is whether there are some, through their behavior, cause people around them to treat them like children...
Quote from: Anselm on December 13, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
I noticed this problem with grade school teachers. Some of them can't "turn it off" after work and then talk to others like their little children, especially when they are angry or serious. Anyhow, virtually any teacher I have known as a student myself or a colleague at work has been pleasant with me. I have only met a handful of difficult people.
As for "soft skills", well I got a few things to say about that. When somebody says "I have people skills" then I translate that as "I can't handle rigorous academics and for that reason I have a chip on my shoulder". These are usually the rudest people I have met. These are the people in HR and management who have held back my career ambitions. They are looking for clones of themselves and can't comprehend or value the "hard skills". They are paid too much money for knowing how to work a room, shake hands, talk sports and BS their way through life. If I ever become dictator, I will send them back to the farms like Mao once did. To understand what I am saying then just pick up any bestselling book about job hunting. They never will tell you to learn a foreign language, higher level mathematics or computer algorithms. It's all about marketing yourself and telling people what they want to hear.
OK, rant over.
Oh, that's where those people end up.
This is the time of the year when underclassmen computer science and engineering majors decide to change their major. They profess to have "people skills" and move into our STEM programs that focus on user interfaces, user experience, requirements engineering, front-end development, and design research. The track has less STEM and more "people skills" courses. Sadly, even with the lower computer science requirements, these people can't hack it. But, the real reason they fail, has less to do with the remaining STEM requirements, and more to do with the fact that they don't really like dealing with people (end-users). This does not deter them from their delusion, however, because once the STEM program kicks them out of the program because they can't pass the basic programming and data science courses, they go over to the business school and major in marketing, in order to develop their "people skills." But over there, they can't handle the micro and accounting courses. And, as the business professors tell me, the "people skills" flunkies don't like selling either. The "people skills" students are really surprised & dismayed when they find out that marketing is really sales. Sooooo, they end up in HR / higher-ed management. It figures.
OK, my rant is over.
Quote from: Anselm on December 13, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
I noticed this problem with grade school teachers. Some of them can't "turn it off" after work and then talk to others like their little children, especially when they are angry or serious. Anyhow, virtually any teacher I have known as a student myself or a colleague at work has been pleasant with me. I have only met a handful of difficult people.
As for "soft skills", well I got a few things to say about that. When somebody says "I have people skills" then I translate that as "I can't handle rigorous academics and for that reason I have a chip on my shoulder". These are usually the rudest people I have met. These are the people in HR and management who have held back my career ambitions. They are looking for clones of themselves and can't comprehend or value the "hard skills". They are paid too much money for knowing how to work a room, shake hands, talk sports and BS their way through life. If I ever become dictator, I will send them back to the farms like Mao once did. To understand what I am saying then just pick up any bestselling book about job hunting. They never will tell you to learn a foreign language, higher level mathematics or computer algorithms. It's all about marketing yourself and telling people what they want to hear.
OK, rant over.
The saddest part is that there
is such a thing as genuine people skills. I've met people who have them. They listen, they make you feel respected and heard (and not just in the moment, but because they follow through and remember what it is that you need), they take care to balance multiple conflicting requirements and explain their reasoning so that their decisions feel justified, not arbitrary. They have humility to change their minds rather than holding onto their decisions for the sake of maintaining power; they support the people who depend on them. Departments that include these sorts of people are miles better a place to work and study than departments that lack them.
The problem is not that people with people skills are bad at the rigorous content and make up some bs fake skillset to compensate. The problem is that people like those you describe are giving a bad name to the genuine, valuable skillset that they've decided they must claim as their own, when in fact they actually lack it. Because
actual people skills are hard to do right, and easy to do badly.
Quote from: ergative on December 17, 2021, 02:07:41 AM
Quote from: Anselm on December 13, 2021, 10:31:58 AM
I noticed this problem with grade school teachers. Some of them can't "turn it off" after work and then talk to others like their little children, especially when they are angry or serious. Anyhow, virtually any teacher I have known as a student myself or a colleague at work has been pleasant with me. I have only met a handful of difficult people.
As for "soft skills", well I got a few things to say about that. When somebody says "I have people skills" then I translate that as "I can't handle rigorous academics and for that reason I have a chip on my shoulder". These are usually the rudest people I have met. These are the people in HR and management who have held back my career ambitions. They are looking for clones of themselves and can't comprehend or value the "hard skills". They are paid too much money for knowing how to work a room, shake hands, talk sports and BS their way through life. If I ever become dictator, I will send them back to the farms like Mao once did. To understand what I am saying then just pick up any bestselling book about job hunting. They never will tell you to learn a foreign language, higher level mathematics or computer algorithms. It's all about marketing yourself and telling people what they want to hear.
OK, rant over.
The saddest part is that there is such a thing as genuine people skills. I've met people who have them. They listen, they make you feel respected and heard (and not just in the moment, but because they follow through and remember what it is that you need), they take care to balance multiple conflicting requirements and explain their reasoning so that their decisions feel justified, not arbitrary. They have humility to change their minds rather than holding onto their decisions for the sake of maintaining power; they support the people who depend on them. Departments that include these sorts of people are miles better a place to work and study than departments that lack them.
The problem is not that people with people skills are bad at the rigorous content and make up some bs fake skillset to compensate. The problem is that people like those you describe are giving a bad name to the genuine, valuable skillset that they've decided they must claim as their own, when in fact they actually lack it. Because actual people skills are hard to do right, and easy to do badly.
You're right that those things are hard. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to just not be a jerk. In fact, in most professional contexts, its much easier to be a reasonable, pleasant person who doesn't actively cause unnecessary problems for everyone else with weird vendettas, ego trips and rigid ideas.
Quote from: Caracal on December 17, 2021, 07:15:32 AM
You're right that those things are hard. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to just not be a jerk. In fact, in most professional contexts, its much easier to be a reasonable, pleasant person who doesn't actively cause unnecessary problems for everyone else with weird vendettas, ego trips and rigid ideas.
I tried having a big ego but it didn't suit me. I'm just too fine a person.
Quote from: Caracal on December 17, 2021, 07:15:32 AM
You're right that those things are hard. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to just not be a jerk. In fact, in most professional contexts, its much easier to be a reasonable, pleasant person who doesn't actively cause unnecessary problems for everyone else with weird vendettas, ego trips and rigid ideas.
In the sense of "best for your mental health and relationships with others", then it is indeed "easier".
In the sense of "automatic reaction for most people", it's definitely
NOT "easier".
I am more of a fan of "Is it a good idea to take on yet another project that distracts me from my thesis/dissertation?" threads. I'm not a fan of "It's your problem I have an attitude" threads.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 17, 2021, 08:27:29 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 17, 2021, 07:15:32 AM
You're right that those things are hard. On the other hand, it is pretty easy to just not be a jerk. In fact, in most professional contexts, its much easier to be a reasonable, pleasant person who doesn't actively cause unnecessary problems for everyone else with weird vendettas, ego trips and rigid ideas.
In the sense of "best for your mental health and relationships with others", then it is indeed "easier".
In the sense of "automatic reaction for most people", it's definitely NOT "easier".
Hmm, that's true for me sometimes in my personal life. Professionally, I really don't find that to be true. I actually get worked up and angry about all kinds of work stuff, especially when I don't like someone's tone, or they are telling me something was my fault and I know it wasn't. Actually, these are the things I get upset about with friends and family too. The difference is that I have a pretty substantial brake on my reactions to thins like that at work. If I don't like my partner's tone, I tend to respond in the moment, often in ways that end up in an argument. When I got an obnoxious email last month from somebody in the disability services office last month who thought I had screwed something up that was actually completely their fault, I was pretty angry and tempted to write them back, tell them they were completely wrong and say something about how I didn't really appreciate getting emails falsely blaming me for their office's screw ups.
However, those people actually aren't in charge of me in any way. It doesn't really matter what they think of me. It was much easier for me to just send them the exam again and ignore the rest. If they were actually complaining to my chair or something, I would have needed to respond, but as it was, there's really no good that was going to come of escalating the situation. This isn't about what a saint I am, I spent the next three days grumbling about this to anyone who would listen. It's just that it is usually much easier to let things that don't actually matter go.
Quote from: Caracal on December 19, 2021, 06:27:46 AM
It was much easier for me to just send them the exam again and ignore the rest. If they were actually complaining to my chair or something, I would have needed to respond, but as it was, there's really no good that was going to come of escalating the situation. This isn't about what a saint I am, I spent the next three days grumbling about this to anyone who would listen. It's just that it is usually much easier to let things that don't actually matter go.
Totally.
In the classroom, for example, I don't police excuses. I'm happy to grant extensions, etc. because it literally takes me 30 seconds to log on to the LMS and input the override. Having a meeting with the student, checking their documentation, etc. takes up a lot more time and energy, and tends to leave us both unhappy. My colleagues probably think I'm soft, but the reality is that it's easier on everyone, the alternative isn't necessarily pedagogically sound, and the students think of it as a great favour, which is reflected in my evaluations.
Plus, doctors hate having to write notes for students who just have a cold or flu, and having them go in for that is a real waste of time and medical resources, and makes them into a bigger vector. It's just not worth it. I'd rather get my reputation for rigour the hard way--by requiring work that's up to a high standard. (And again, that doesn't mean failing everyone; IMO it means being pretty permissive with passing grades, but having high standards for the rest.)
I make them prove it, otherwise absenteeism would be rampant.
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 20, 2021, 11:14:57 AM
I make them pry ove it, otherwise absenteeism would be rampant.
Usually I just drop three attendance grades a semester. Anything over that I say they should go to the dean of student's for documentation. This semester, I really haven't wanted to do anything to encourage people to come in sick, so I've just been excusing absences because of illnesses. Attendance really hasn't been bad considering. It's always strange to me how just signaling that coming to class or doing the reading is important makes such a big difference. Far more students actually do the reading if there's an online quiz or reading response, even if they could usually manage to get the right answers without actually opening the book.. Same thing with attendance.
Well, I say I want proof, and usually it comes to me....how much I chase after it or punish that which never gets to me ....we'll, that's case by case.