Students suing universities over remote learning

[arcturus]

The popular press is reporting that a student is suing my university due to the change in mode of instruction this spring. I understand wanting a refund when services are not delivered, but in this case, faculty worked very hard to transition their courses for remote learning. Even requests for refunds on dormitory fees are a little specious, since most students were not able to move out of the dorms after the stay-at-home orders came into effect. So even if they are not living there, no one else can move in either (their stuff is still there).  On the other hand, I am in agreement that students should be partially refunded for any meal-plan points they have remaining, since they did not have the opportunity to use them for the second half of the semester.

What is happening at your institutions?  I am fortunate that my university will be abe to weather these storms, but I find it rude (but not surprising!) that students would sue under the present circumstances.

[spork]

I have not heard of this happening to my employer, which issued prorated refunds on room and board to any student who requested one. (The campus closed and dorms emptied as of 5:00 pm on the Friday before spring break was scheduled to begin.) The university also extended the course withdrawal deadline until the end of the semester and instituted a pass/fail grading option. All of these measures were fundamentally intended to minimize lawsuits and  negative publicity.

I will guess that the student who is suing your university has mediocre grades but delusions of attending Harvard Medical School a similar fantasy, plus wealthy snowplow parents.

[mahagonny]

Everybody's going to lose this one. The students were inconvenienced and lost some amount of educational quality and money. The faculty were inconvenienced and many of them will lose employment and/or money. The college will lose money and have to navigate a whole new set of problems, and could even close for good. Maybe the attorneys will win. Everyone else is going to hurt, no matter what.

[polly_mer]

Everybody's going to lose this one. The students were inconvenienced and lost some amount of educational quality and money. The faculty were inconvenienced and many of them will lose employment and/or money. The college will lose money and have to navigate a whole new set of problems, and could even close for good. Maybe the attorneys will win. Everyone else is going to hurt, no matter what.

Agreed.

While many faculty members have made heroic efforts for no additional pay, students who paid for in-person lab courses, studio time, rehearsal time, or similar experiences did not get what they paid for.

The students who paid for several hours a week doing group problem-solving in fancy learning labs capped at 18 students with one faculty member and possibly a learning assistant or three didn't get what they paid for.  With half a term under the good conditions, they would acutely feel the transition to a much lesser experience.

[arcturus]

[...] The university also extended the course withdrawal deadline until the end of the semester and instituted a pass/fail grading option. All of these measures were fundamentally intended to minimize lawsuits and  negative publicity.
[...]

My school did these things as well. It does not appear to have stopped the lawsuits, however.

[mahagonny]

[...] The university also extended the course withdrawal deadline until the end of the semester and instituted a pass/fail grading option. All of these measures were fundamentally intended to minimize lawsuits and  negative publicity.
[...]

My school did these things as well. It does not appear to have stopped the lawsuits, however.

Did they keep money that had been collected for housing and dining, that was never used? Are they planning to charge full tuition and fees for online classes in the immediate future? If so, they're going to be competing with schools that make concessions. Good luck with that.

And actually, switching to pass/fail grading is by no means restitution. It's more slippage. Chances are no one was going to fail them anyway. Who wants complaints about your grading at a time like this?

Students don't see us like we see ourselves. When we say we are in favor of free college education, we don't mean the students and taxpayers deserve a break. We mean we want a steady availability of students and revenue to keep our livelihood flush.

[TreadingLife]

Students don't see us like we see ourselves. When we say we are in favor of free college education, we don't mean the students and taxpayers deserve a break. We mean we want a steady availability of students and revenue to keep our livelihood flush.

Ding, ding, ding! Although very few would admit to agreeing with that statement.  Many like to think that they are more woke than they really are.

[Parasaurolophus]

Sounds like it could be the sort of thing that sounds absolutely frivolous on the face of it but which, when investigated, actually involves a serious harm. Like the McDonald's coffee lady, who was actually quite seriously burned by her coffee.

[mahagonny]

Students don't see us like we see ourselves. When we say we are in favor of free college education, we don't mean the students and taxpayers deserve a break. We mean we want a steady availability of students and revenue to keep our livelihood flush.

Ding, ding, ding! Although very few would admit to agreeing with that statement.  Many like to think that they are more woke than they really are.

At your service. Already unpopular. Why not enjoy it?

[Caracal]

Sounds like it could be the sort of thing that sounds absolutely frivolous on the face of it but which, when investigated, actually involves a serious harm. Like the McDonald's coffee lady, who was actually quite seriously burned by her coffee.

Meh, probably not. The thing about lawsuits is that anyone can sue someone. You just need to find a lawyer who thinks it seems worth a shot. There are a lot of lawyers and plenty of them are not very good at their jobs. It seems like these are mostly attempts to sue based on breach of contract. I'd guess that a lot of these suits are going to get tossed just because it is going to be very hard for someone to show clear damages. Did you get your credits? Did you take classes? Ok, what do you want money for? It seems like these parents and students are trying to claim that the suspension of normal parts of the college experience is a breach of contract. That seems like it would also be a tough sell. It's a bummer that you didn't get to go to the spring formal and the basketball game, but that doesn't the college promised you those things and didn't deliver.

The stuff with people attempting to argue that they received substandard classes is even less likely to go anywhere. Courts aren't going to decide that you get some money back because your chemistry lab didn't involve making things bubble in person. They don't want to get involved in trying to make pedagogical decisions.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to guess most of these cases are losers and are going to be unceremoniously tossed. For schools refusing to refund room and board, that might be different, because there's a much clearer argument that you paid for something and didn't get it.

[bacardiandlime]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to guess most of these cases are losers and are going to be unceremoniously tossed. For schools refusing to refund room and board, that might be different, because there's a much clearer argument that you paid for something and didn't get it.

This is it. The school can also argue that the diploma itself is still worth whatever value it had when the student enrolled. It's hard to quantify what they're claiming to have lost.

[marshwiggle]

Students don't see us like we see ourselves. When we say we are in favor of free college education, we don't mean the students and taxpayers deserve a break. We mean we want a steady availability of students and revenue to keep our livelihood flush.

Ding, ding, ding! Although very few would admit to agreeing with that statement.  Many like to think that they are more woke than they really are.

I agree. I have better pension, benefits, etc. than most people, but those are all using tax money which other people have to contribute. Especially now with covid-related job losses, it's s bit humbling to be protected more than most people.

[polly_mer]

The stuff with people attempting to argue that they received substandard classes is even less likely to go anywhere. Courts aren't going to decide that you get some money back because your chemistry lab didn't involve making things bubble in person. They don't want to get involved in trying to make pedagogical decisions.

That's the argument regarding general education classes to check a science requirement.  People who need to be proficient at certain techniques can show damages, because they will have to retake classes.  Lecture may have been fine, but not actual lab to practice techniques.

Likewise students who were supposed to have performance-based courses in theatre or art like sculpture really didn't get what they paid for and can prove damages.

[mahagonny]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to guess most of these cases are losers and are going to be unceremoniously tossed. For schools refusing to refund room and board, that might be different, because there's a much clearer argument that you paid for something and didn't get it.

This is it. The school can also argue that the diploma itself is still worth whatever value it had when the student enrolled. It's hard to quantify what they're claiming to have lost.

They've been doing this for years already. Does that count? Not too many years ago it was rare when someone could manage to get all the way to PhD.

I envision some making the argument 'if online instruction has the same value as being on campus then the college need to stop showing us photos of the campus and using them to advertise.' Whether that would work legally I don't know, but it shows that higher ed is a business and deserves to be treated no differently from any business. If you hired someone to put in a swimming pool and he gave you an above-ground pool, he could't say 'what are you complaining about? You're still wet aren't you?'

[polly_mer]

 I remember having multiple conversations a few years ago regarding having online chemistry and physics degrees.  Those discussions indicated significant difficulties in moving the whole program online.

This morning, a quick search indicates almost no chemistry ot physics degrees being fully online.  I can find a few programs for finishing a degree online with many transfer credits.  I can find some science teaching degrees that will send well-designed kits to students' houses.  The BS engineering degrees online are mostly electrical and computer engineering-again with kits shipped to enrolled students.

Virtual-only labs appear to still be more in the idea phase than widespread practice.