Canadian Report on the Labour Market Transition of PhD Graduates

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

I stumbled upon a recent Canadian report on the state of Doctoral Studies
https://www.cca-reports.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Degrees-of-Success_FullReport_EN.pdf
While it nominally focusses on the job market outcomes, it has plentiful insights on other aspects of PhD training across all fields. I am not aware of comparable easy-to-read data-driven reports for the US.
One can get quite a good overview by reading section titles alone:
2.3.3 Budgets Have Changed Who Is Teaching University Courses
3.1.1 The Career Goals and Expectations of PhD Students Are Not Static
3.2.1 The Traditional Model of PhD Education Is No Longer Sufficient
3.2.3 Academic Culture Varies by Academic Discipline
4.1.1 University Receptor Capacity for Tenure-Track Professors in Canada Is Stagnant or Declining
4.1.4 Most PDFs Will Not Become Tenure-Track Professors
4.2.3 Some Private Sector Employers Have a Negative View of PhDs
4.2.4 There May Be Inconsistency Between PhD Experience and Employer Needs
4.2.6 Networks Are Important for Identifying Jobs
5.2.1 The Earnings Premium of a PhD is Changing
5.2.2 The Salary Trajectory of Recent PhD Graduates Varies Widely

I am particularly concerned about many professors underplaying 4.2.3 and 4.2.6, when talking about valuable soft skills one gets pursuing a PhD degree.

[marshwiggle]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

That's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

[Parasaurolophus]

4.1.1 University Receptor Capacity for Tenure-Track Professors in Canada Is Stagnant or Declining

This section was not at all surprising, but was still somewhat depressing to read. We complained a lot about the 'brain drain' in the '90s, but things are not any better now. In my field, there are 1-5 TT jobs in Canada each year. And they're divided up by area of specialization, of course, which makes it that much harder for Canadian PhDs to stay here, if we want to.

[Caracal]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

HmmThat's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

[marshwiggle]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

That's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

I'm not sure what you mean; high school teaching?

And as for where those attitudes are concentrated, it would be really stupid for institutions granting PhDs to not look closer into that. If it is in areas where their graduates may be looking for work, it's a very big problem.

[Caracal]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

That's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

I'm not sure what you mean; high school teaching?

Sure, but also administration (college and secondary), support services of various sorts, consulting, etc. etc. I also know a number of people who work in research capacities for foundations, another sector where I would assume they don't have particularly negative impressions of PHDs. 

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

The report does acknowledge that lack of familiarity may be a factor. However, given the current market trends, many PhD graduates will have to appeal to a broader range of employers than in the past. Promoting the "value of critical thinking etc" notion among faculty and students themselves would not help them much.

[apl68]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

That's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

I'm not sure what you mean; high school teaching?

And as for where those attitudes are concentrated, it would be really stupid for institutions granting PhDs to not look closer into that. If it is in areas where their graduates may be looking for work, it's a very big problem.

Yes it is.  Even if it's more a matter of perception than reality, it would be a perception that needs to be addressed.

[Kron3007]

Lots of interesting stuff in the report. Here's a commentary on the preceived value of "soft skills":

While the private sector recognizes that PhDs have highly
specialized knowledge, it also perceives them as lacking adaptability, practicality,
certain communication and teamwork skills, and skills increasingly needed for
21st-century work, such as collaborating with diverse actors and incorporating
multiple perspectives that cross discipline and sector boundaries.

That's pretty damning. Almost the antithesis of what the promoters of "soft skills" claim.

Maybe, but I wonder if those attitudes are concentrated in the sorts of jobs that people with PHDs are least likely to pursue. I very much doubt, for example, that those attitudes are widespread in education fields (outside of academia)

I'm not sure what you mean; high school teaching?

And as for where those attitudes are concentrated, it would be really stupid for institutions granting PhDs to not look closer into that. If it is in areas where their graduates may be looking for work, it's a very big problem.

Yes it is.  Even if it's more a matter of perception than reality, it would be a perception that needs to be addressed.

This is a very common attitude among grad students in my (Canadian) department.  Many stop at the MSc simply because they feel there or more opportunities at this level, or at least that going for a PhD isn't necessarily worth the extra effort.  I generally tell my students that this may be true, but the PhD opens different doors, even if it closes some, so it really depends on your long term goals.

I have also met employers who expressed this.  The one I am thinking of most said he wouldn't hire another PhD.  His reasoning was that they expect more money and want to spend too much time reading instead of getting the job done.  He is in a very 'sciency" field too.

The challenge for us is that we have the government pushing us to increase PhD training.  Our MSc program is growing, while our PhD program is stagnant or shrinking, and is really only propped up by international students who have good reason to Persie the degree. 

[polly_mer]

I'm still reminded of https://www.chronicle.com/article/odds-are-your-doctorate-will-not-prepare-you-for-a-profession-outside-academe/.  A nebulous critical thinking and communication skill set is not nearly as good as direct experience in the relevant industry so that one knows what is important to communicate.

It's not that an unrelated PhD has zero value so much as PhD holders tend to discount what other people know and therefore overrate their own abilities, much like dealing with that know-it-all student in a gen ed course.  Employers who have had a couple bad experiences with PhD holders who won't act like entry-level novices who have much to learn will not be eager to go through that experience again.  Dealing with eager novices who have relevant internships and are now graduating college is much more pleasant.

[marshwiggle]

I'm still reminded of https://www.chronicle.com/article/odds-are-your-doctorate-will-not-prepare-you-for-a-profession-outside-academe/.  A nebulous critical thinking and communication skill set is not nearly as good as direct experience in the relevant industry so that one knows what is important to communicate.

It's not that an unrelated PhD has zero value so much as PhD holders tend to discount what other people know and therefore overrate their own abilities, much like dealing with that know-it-all student in a gen ed course. Employers who have had a couple bad experiences with PhD holders who won't act like entry-level novices who have much to learn will not be eager to go through that experience again.  Dealing with eager novices who have relevant internships and are now graduating college is much more pleasant.

Many years ago, I was involved with a program that brought keen high school students in to do workshops. I reworked a lab that we did with university students for the program. The result? The high school students with less technical background but more enthusiasm and willingness to learn fared better than the university students who had more background, but many of whom were only taking it because it was required.

I can't imagine a manager in a company with perhaps only a Bachelor's or (gasp!) no degree at all trying to explain something to a PhD who knows nothing about the job but feels like the job is beneath him/her.

[Kron3007]

I'm still reminded of https://www.chronicle.com/article/odds-are-your-doctorate-will-not-prepare-you-for-a-profession-outside-academe/.  A nebulous critical thinking and communication skill set is not nearly as good as direct experience in the relevant industry so that one knows what is important to communicate.

It's not that an unrelated PhD has zero value so much as PhD holders tend to discount what other people know and therefore overrate their own abilities, much like dealing with that know-it-all student in a gen ed course. Employers who have had a couple bad experiences with PhD holders who won't act like entry-level novices who have much to learn will not be eager to go through that experience again.  Dealing with eager novices who have relevant internships and are now graduating college is much more pleasant.

Many years ago, I was involved with a program that brought keen high school students in to do workshops. I reworked a lab that we did with university students for the program. The result? The high school students with less technical background but more enthusiasm and willingness to learn fared better than the university students who had more background, but many of whom were only taking it because it was required.

I can't imagine a manager in a company with perhaps only a Bachelor's or (gasp!) no degree at all trying to explain something to a PhD who knows nothing about the job but feels like the job is beneath him/her.

I have met many PhDs that I would not hire, and others I would.  I am in a fairly hands on field, where it is very useful to be able to trouble shoot, and many PhDs do not have or pick up these skills.   Soft skills are great, but do not replace hard skills.

So, if I were hiring, there are some positions that would require a PhD, but there are more that do not and for those I would prioritize skill set over academic training.  You should never expect people to value you more simply because of a degree.

[apl68]

I'm still reminded of https://www.chronicle.com/article/odds-are-your-doctorate-will-not-prepare-you-for-a-profession-outside-academe/.  A nebulous critical thinking and communication skill set is not nearly as good as direct experience in the relevant industry so that one knows what is important to communicate.

It's not that an unrelated PhD has zero value so much as PhD holders tend to discount what other people know and therefore overrate their own abilities, much like dealing with that know-it-all student in a gen ed course. Employers who have had a couple bad experiences with PhD holders who won't act like entry-level novices who have much to learn will not be eager to go through that experience again.  Dealing with eager novices who have relevant internships and are now graduating college is much more pleasant.

Many years ago, I was involved with a program that brought keen high school students in to do workshops. I reworked a lab that we did with university students for the program. The result? The high school students with less technical background but more enthusiasm and willingness to learn fared better than the university students who had more background, but many of whom were only taking it because it was required.

I can't imagine a manager in a company with perhaps only a Bachelor's or (gasp!) no degree at all trying to explain something to a PhD who knows nothing about the job but feels like the job is beneath him/her.

I have met many PhDs that I would not hire, and others I would.  I am in a fairly hands on field, where it is very useful to be able to trouble shoot, and many PhDs do not have or pick up these skills.   Soft skills are great, but do not replace hard skills.

So, if I were hiring, there are some positions that would require a PhD, but there are more that do not and for those I would prioritize skill set over academic training.  You should never expect people to value you more simply because of a degree.

I guess that's one way in which failing to complete the PhD helped me out.  I never felt like my Plan B career was beneath me.  When you're a complete wash-out, there's nowhere to go but up!  Since I started on the bottom with Plan B, and got the professional degree later, I know better than to over-estimate the importance of the formal schooling part of my professional education--valuable though that is.  Spending most of your life in a small-town, around people with limited formal education but considerable intelligence and acquired skills, will also help you to stay humble.

It's unfortunate that bad experiences with some advanced degree holders have turned off some employers.  It really behooves holders of degrees to be humble about their achievements.  We've all got a lot to be modest about.

[marshwiggle]

I have met many PhDs that I would not hire, and others I would.  I am in a fairly hands on field, where it is very useful to be able to trouble shoot, and many PhDs do not have or pick up these skills.   Soft skills are great, but do not replace hard skills.

So, if I were hiring, there are some positions that would require a PhD, but there are more that do not and for those I would prioritize skill set over academic training.  You should never expect people to value you more simply because of a degree.

I guess that's one way in which failing to complete the PhD helped me out.  I never felt like my Plan B career was beneath me.  When you're a complete wash-out, there's nowhere to go but up!  Since I started on the bottom with Plan B, and got the professional degree later, I know better than to over-estimate the importance of the formal schooling part of my professional education--valuable though that is.  Spending most of your life in a small-town, around people with limited formal education but considerable intelligence and acquired skills, will also help you to stay humble.

It's unfortunate that bad experiences with some advanced degree holders have turned off some employers.  It really behooves holders of degrees to be humble about their achievements.  We've all got a lot to be modest about.

People on here have talked about faculty seeming disappointed in their own graduates not becoming academics. With that kind of "mentorship", it's likely that those graduates would project that same disdain for non-academic work.

[apl68]

I have met many PhDs that I would not hire, and others I would.  I am in a fairly hands on field, where it is very useful to be able to trouble shoot, and many PhDs do not have or pick up these skills.   Soft skills are great, but do not replace hard skills.

So, if I were hiring, there are some positions that would require a PhD, but there are more that do not and for those I would prioritize skill set over academic training.  You should never expect people to value you more simply because of a degree.

I guess that's one way in which failing to complete the PhD helped me out.  I never felt like my Plan B career was beneath me.  When you're a complete wash-out, there's nowhere to go but up!  Since I started on the bottom with Plan B, and got the professional degree later, I know better than to over-estimate the importance of the formal schooling part of my professional education--valuable though that is.  Spending most of your life in a small-town, around people with limited formal education but considerable intelligence and acquired skills, will also help you to stay humble.

It's unfortunate that bad experiences with some advanced degree holders have turned off some employers.  It really behooves holders of degrees to be humble about their achievements.  We've all got a lot to be modest about.

People on here have talked about faculty seeming disappointed in their own graduates not becoming academics. With that kind of "mentorship", it's likely that those graduates would project that same disdain for non-academic work.

Well, you can't get a PhD in anything without putting in a huge amount of time and effort.  It's only natural for anybody who does that to feel like he or she has earned some kind of status or leg up in the world in exchange for that effort.  I've seen posters here who complain bitterly that they have not been accorded what they feel is respect commensurate with their level of education.  People pick up on that, and it invites push-back. 

If I let myself, I could work up a pretty strong head of resentment over the fact that there are guys at the local mill who blew off high school, started working for the mill straight out of school, and are now making more than I ever will as the local librarian with my two masters' degrees.  But what would that accomplish, other than to make me and those around me unhappy?  I'm making a fair living.  And it's not like the guys at the mill didn't have to pay their own kinds of dues, in terms of working their way up and working long, hard hours in a tough shift-work environment.