Now I know that 2/3 of American adults 25+ lack a college degree, and I am wondering whether this is a similar rate to various peer countries, such as Canada, the UK, etc. Specifically, I was listening today to an interview with Farah Stockman of the NYT, who has written a book pointing this out, and demonstrating how many if not most American college grads seem to ignore this reality, and seem genuinely confused when those non-college educated countrymen ignore the wisdom of their betters. I would be especially interested to learn how such dichotomies play out elsewhere, and, specifically, how college-educated people in those countries get their lesser-educated countrymen to at least consider that the college educated have, ahem, learned things that may well be worth listening to. I think I know, but am interested in other views...?
Can't vouch for the accuracy but the following seems reasonable to me:
https://www.russellsage.org/sites/default/files/Fig10_Comparative_hires_0.png
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 28, 2022, 12:08:32 AM
Now I know that 2/3 of American adults 25+ lack a college degree, and I am wondering whether this is a similar rate to various peer countries, such as Canada, the UK, etc. Specifically, I was listening today to an interview with Farah Stockman of the NYT, who has written a book pointing this out, and demonstrating how many if not most American college grads seem to ignore this reality, and seem genuinely confused when those non-college educated countrymen ignore the wisdom of their betters. I would be especially interested to learn how such dichotomies play out elsewhere, and, specifically, how college-educated people in those countries get their lesser-educated countrymen to at least consider that the college educated have, ahem, learned things that may well be worth listening to. I think I know, but am interested in other views...?
Why would I want to be a pompous ass to people with less formal education than I have, like all of the service people without whom I'd basically be living in a cave?
Canada has the highest proportion of college and university graduates in the OECD. Way back in 2016, something like 54% of the population aged 25-64 had a post-secondary diploma or degree.
Whenever the results from the latest census are released, we'll see what it's like now.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 28, 2022, 12:08:32 AM
Now I know that 2/3 of American adults 25+ lack a college degree, and I am wondering whether this is a similar rate to various peer countries, such as Canada, the UK, etc. Specifically, I was listening today to an interview with Farah Stockman of the NYT, who has written a book pointing this out, and demonstrating how many if not most American college grads seem to ignore this reality, and seem genuinely confused when those non-college educated countrymen ignore the wisdom of their betters. I would be especially interested to learn how such dichotomies play out elsewhere, and, specifically, how college-educated people in those countries get their lesser-educated countrymen to at least consider that the college educated have, ahem, learned things that may well be worth listening to. I think I know, but am interested in other views...?
If people felt college was attainable and affordable to themselves, as opposed to something only snobby rich privileged elites could have...
If they felt it was a choice to attend or not, as opposed to being forced to take a job they might not find satisfying or fulfilling as well as having to take orders from some college kid in management who didn't know what they knew...
Anyway, they might have more respect instead of resentment for people who decided to study science and policy. They decided book life wasn't for them, but know they could change careers any time they wanted to.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 28, 2022, 10:06:20 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 28, 2022, 12:08:32 AM
Now I know that 2/3 of American adults 25+ lack a college degree, and I am wondering whether this is a similar rate to various peer countries, such as Canada, the UK, etc. Specifically, I was listening today to an interview with Farah Stockman of the NYT, who has written a book pointing this out, and demonstrating how many if not most American college grads seem to ignore this reality, and seem genuinely confused when those non-college educated countrymen ignore the wisdom of their betters. I would be especially interested to learn how such dichotomies play out elsewhere, and, specifically, how college-educated people in those countries get their lesser-educated countrymen to at least consider that the college educated have, ahem, learned things that may well be worth listening to. I think I know, but am interested in other views...?
Why would I want to be a pompous ass to people with less formal education than I have, like all of the service people without whom I'd basically be living in a cave?
I found Kay's carefull crafted sentences to be entertaining, catching the ethos so precisely. Marsh's reply cathces another ethos just right as well. <thumbsup>
QuoteIf people felt college was attainable and affordable to themselves, as opposed to something only snobby rich privileged elites could have...
College is clearly attainable and affordable for anybody who can get accepted. Just borrow. If it's not worth borrowing for, it's not worth it.
Part of the educated / non-educated matrix is generational.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/785618/educational-attainment-by-age-group-us/
Quote from: dismalist on May 28, 2022, 06:16:31 PM
QuoteIf people felt college was attainable and affordable to themselves, as opposed to something only snobby rich privileged elites could have...
College is clearly attainable and affordable for anybody who can get accepted. Just borrow. If it's not worth borrowing for, it's not worth it.
OK Boomer.
Several initial thoughts:
1) This will happen when the university-educated themselves think that they "have learned things that may well be worth listening to." Among most of my students, there is little appreciation that a university education is about learning things rather than obtaining a degree.
2) This will happen when the university educated understand that the non-university-educated have "learned things that may well be worth listening to." I mean, I am friendly with my auto mechanic. His training (including decades of practice) was, in its own way, as intensive as my PhD program. His expertise as genuine as my own and in some situations, more important. Same things with train conductors and longshoremen.
3) This will happen when, ironically, everybody understands that the educated only have a right to be especially listened to in very specific circumstances. That is, in my neighborhood, the university-educated are a minority so I interact with people who do not have a university education regularly. There are very few situations in which I would expect people to listen to me just because I am educated. I suppose if I got in a discussion about my academic speciality, I would expect people to listen to me. Or if I got in a discussion about faculty governance. But other than this, the only time I really expect people to listen to me is when I am teaching.
4) Probably an ideal situation is (for example) the way university-educated people treat other university-educated people with specialized degrees. I know people with MBAs, JDs, MDs, and PhDs. I respect their education. If I am talking about medicine, I probably appreciate an MD has "learned things that may well be worth listening to." But I don't think an MD is by extension should be listened to more than other people in general.
5.) Finally, as a general rule, I think it is important to realize that all people are worth listening to. There are of course people in my life whom I have learnt not to listen to because they are foolish, non-serious people. However, they are as likely to have a university degree as those as not.
In Spanish, there is a difference between educacción and enseñanza. (Since Kaysixteen is a language teacher, this would I assume be one of the worthwhile things he has learnt.) It is very possible to have advanced degrees and be maleducado.
This thread drift is interesting in that we feel the need to defend the working class who are not, to the best of my knowledge, represented on this fora.
Look, we all respect the electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc. and listen to their expertise without condescension. And we will pay them plenty----we got estimates on replacing some flashing on our roof vents and a bathtub liner----these people are making at least as much as we do, and then some.
And if you were a middle class kid like me you probably had a ton of minimum wage jobs as you grew up and into young adulthood. I used to haul sheetrock and I worked in a shingle factory, two of the hardest things I've ever done. My favorite blue-collar job was as a janitor.
No one wants to hear what I have to say except in a classroom scenario, and I am fine with that.
However, in the same vein that I listen to my mechanic and roofing contractor and trust their experience and training, I sure wish parts of our population would listen to our virologists, doctors, legal experts, election officials, climatologists, and even our journalists with the same level of respect.
Yesterday, following my brother-in-law (who delivers medical supplies for a living) to an antique barn not far from the roadside stand selling Trump paraphernalia, I saw a bumper sticker on the battered and rust-stained pickup truck parked next to us:
Republican:
working hard
so you don't have to
Well, okay...all of which points out this class / education division which----based on my experience as a small town boy who grew up idolizing Eddie Van Halen (RIP)----is far more overt and confrontation on the blue-collar rightwing than it is in the Tower. Heck, just look at the commentary on this thread.
Awwright, thanks all. I suppose I should clarify the points I have been musing on, which motivated me to raise the thread in the first place.
1) I get that a long-time master car mechanic has a lot to say.... about cars and stuff like this. On the other hand, six months ago I sat in my car dealer's office whilst my car was being serviced, and the man, a friend of mine, volunteer church pastor, good guy, etc., started to tell me how Bill Gates was engineering the covid vax to implant microchip surveillance devices. What the hell was I supposed to say? Now of course this man knows I have a PhD, a car full of books, and have been a college professor, and he has great respect for me ( I am also about 8 years older than he is). But my point here is that his great experience and skills with cars, etc., cannot be compared with my education (or probably even a BA from a good liberal arts college or R1 uni, perhaps even some lesser schools) in terms of developing a) critical thinking skills b) the knowledge base needed to use those critical thinking skills to make real decisions about matters of public policy, evaluation of evidence, etc. Really, it just can't. So how does one convince people like this of these realities, esp given
2) The other thing I am considering is that this attitude on the part of these non-college grad Americans is developing due to tribal identity politics, a view that 'we have to own the libs, down with those elitists who want to tell us they know best, etc.'
I think the educated liberal elites who know best are just as much subject to tribal identity politics as the non-college grad anti-vaxxers.
(Except, naturally, our tribe is better and righteous and holds the moral high ground, etc. etc.)
Raise your hand if you've never heard someone with an advanced degree spew nonsense. The "elites" have their conspiracy theories and lies too - just as stupid as the covid-vaxx-microchip stuff.
Some of the dumbest people I know have PhDs. They may be brilliant in their field but I wouldn't trust them to read a bus timetable.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 29, 2022, 09:29:37 PM
Awwright, thanks all. I suppose I should clarify the points I have been musing on, which motivated me to raise the thread in the first place.
1) I get that a long-time master car mechanic has a lot to say.... about cars and stuff like this. On the other hand, six months ago I sat in my car dealer's office whilst my car was being serviced, and the man, a friend of mine, volunteer church pastor, good guy, etc., started to tell me how Bill Gates was engineering the covid vax to implant microchip surveillance devices. What the hell was I supposed to say? Now of course this man knows I have a PhD, a car full of books, and have been a college professor, and he has great respect for me ( I am also about 8 years older than he is). But my point here is that his great experience and skills with cars, etc., cannot be compared with my education (or probably even a BA from a good liberal arts college or R1 uni, perhaps even some lesser schools) in terms of developing a) critical thinking skills b) the knowledge base needed to use those critical thinking skills to make real decisions about matters of public policy, evaluation of evidence, etc. Really, it just can't. So how does one convince people like this of these realities, esp given
2) The other thing I am considering is that this attitude on the part of these non-college grad Americans is developing due to tribal identity politics, a view that 'we have to own the libs, down with those elitists who want to tell us they know best, etc.'
Correlation is not causation. If that same person had attended university, they would likely still think Gates is microchipping us. So, do some people lack critical thinking skills because they didn't attend university, or did they not attend university because they lack critical thinking skills?
When I was a grad student, there was a prof on my campus holding evening public lectures on how the arc could actually have been real (with dimensions etc). Any critical thinker will recognize that a literal interpretation of Noah's arc is ridiculous, yet there it was....
Quote from: ergative on May 29, 2022, 10:56:26 PM
I think the educated liberal elites who know best are just as much subject to tribal identity politics as the non-college grad anti-vaxxers.
(Except, naturally, our tribe is better and righteous and holds the moral high ground, etc. etc.)
HOF for this one.
I'd like to point out that NON-covid anti-vax sentiment (e.g. "vaccines cause autism") is higher among college "educated" people. There are probably numerous other examples of ridiculous stuff believed more by "educated" people, but that's the first one that comes to mind.
Quote from: Kron3007 on May 30, 2022, 04:16:22 AM
When I was a grad student, there was a prof on my campus holding evening public lectures on how the arc could actually have been real (with dimensions etc). Any critical thinker will recognize that a literal interpretation of Noah's arc is ridiculous, yet there it was....
At least it might make for an interesting engineering problem, à la cartoon physics? (Unless, of course, the interpretation is 'some farmer saved his donkey and chickens with a raft during a flood'.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 30, 2022, 04:28:07 AM
There are probably numerous other examples of ridiculous stuff believed more by "educated" people, but that's the first one that comes to mind.
Sorry for responding to my own post, but supposedly "educated" people describing Canada and many other countries as "socialist" is another example. (And who are the primary audience for "Goop" products?
Not your master mechanic....)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 30, 2022, 04:28:07 AM
Quote from: ergative on May 29, 2022, 10:56:26 PM
I think the educated liberal elites who know best are just as much subject to tribal identity politics as the non-college grad anti-vaxxers.
(Except, naturally, our tribe is better and righteous and holds the moral high ground, etc. etc.)
HOF for this one.
I'd like to point out that NON-covid anti-vax sentiment (e.g. "vaccines cause autism") is higher among college "educated" people. There are probably numerous other examples of ridiculous stuff believed more by "educated" people, but that's the first one that comes to mind.
Before the current anti-covid vax stuff (which in the US is highly politicized obviously), anti-vax attitudes and skepticism toward modern medicine in general definitely followed a U curve, occurring on both the left and right (again, in the US, not sure about other countries), and high and low ends of educational attainment.
Quote from: Puget on May 30, 2022, 07:02:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 30, 2022, 04:28:07 AM
Quote from: ergative on May 29, 2022, 10:56:26 PM
I think the educated liberal elites who know best are just as much subject to tribal identity politics as the non-college grad anti-vaxxers.
(Except, naturally, our tribe is better and righteous and holds the moral high ground, etc. etc.)
HOF for this one.
I'd like to point out that NON-covid anti-vax sentiment (e.g. "vaccines cause autism") is higher among college "educated" people. There are probably numerous other examples of ridiculous stuff believed more by "educated" people, but that's the first one that comes to mind.
Before the current anti-covid vax stuff (which in the US is highly politicized obviously), anti-vax attitudes and skepticism toward modern medicine in general definitely followed a U curve, occurring on both the left and right (again, in the US, not sure about other countries), and high and low ends of educational attainment.
The U curve is definitely the issue. The increased skepticism with more education doesn't necessarily track with a good
statistical understanding of the risks. In other words, while being more "educated" makes people more aware of potential problems, it doesn't make them more aware of how to put those problems
in a proper scientific context. The fact that someone can claim to be "highly" educated without that kind of knowledge is bad for society.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 30, 2022, 06:28:44 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on May 30, 2022, 04:16:22 AM
When I was a grad student, there was a prof on my campus holding evening public lectures on how the arc could actually have been real (with dimensions etc). Any critical thinker will recognize that a literal interpretation of Noah's arc is ridiculous, yet there it was....
At least it might make for an interesting engineering problem, à la cartoon physics? (Unless, of course, the interpretation is 'some farmer saved his donkey and chickens with a raft during a flood'.)
If it were framed that way, sure, but it most definitely was not...and he is not an engineer.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 29, 2022, 09:29:37 PM
Now of course this man knows I have a PhD, a car full of books, and have been a college professor, and he has great respect for me ( I am also about 8 years older than he is). But my point here is that his great experience and skills with cars, etc., cannot be compared with my education (or probably even a BA from a good liberal arts college or R1 uni, perhaps even some lesser schools) in terms of developing a) critical thinking skills b) the knowledge base needed to use those critical thinking skills to make real decisions about matters of public policy, evaluation of evidence, etc. Really, it just can't.
I don't know the OP's auto mechanic, and I really don't know the OP. So I cannot speak to the specifics. However, I do not think that having a PhD makes one--automatically--more qualified to discuss public policy. Yes, there are intellectual skills that come from having a doctorate (writing, evaluating evidence, maybe speaking), but there are also intellectual skills that come with being an auto mechanic (problem solving, dealing with the public). Here is a list of PhDs who have been in public service (as it were). They are by no means equivalent in terms, but my point is that having earned a PhD does not make you a good leader. If all these people were together in the same room, it might make for interesting conversation. But I would not want them to be my leaders.
New Gingrich (PhD Tulane)
Joseph Goebbels (PhD from University of Heidelberg)
Khieu Samphan (PhD from Sorbonne)
Henry Kissinger (PhD from Harvard)
George McGovern (PhD Northwestern)
Enoch Powell (not a PhD but a skilled classicist)
More specifically, the OP's discussion with his auto mechanic sounds like a discussion I had with a part-time professor (PhD from an Ivy League school, several books and articles, fluent in three languages) about Covid.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 29, 2022, 09:29:37 PM
2) The other thing I am considering is that this attitude on the part of these non-college grad Americans is developing due to tribal identity politics, a view that 'we have to own the libs, down with those elitists who want to tell us they know best, etc.'
But it seems like the OP could also be read--a good PhD term!--as trying to articulate--again, a great PhD term!--its own form of "tribal identity politics".
Hmmmm.... thanks again:
1) I stand shamefacedly corrected wrt the notion that the ability of people to follow nutty thinking is only something that the lesser educated are susceptible to. That is false. What I think is *not* false is the idea that college education does indeed inculcate both superior critical thinking skills and the increased widespread knowledge base (much better if the college education is liberal arts) needed to use those critical thinking skills to their best advantage.
2) Who amongst us, in 2022, would consider voting for a non-college educated person to be President?
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 09:06:22 AM
2) Who amongst us, in 2022, would consider voting for a non-college educated person to be President?
Why not? You're coming off like a real snob in this thread.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 09:06:22 AM
2) Who amongst us, in 2022, would consider voting for a non-college educated person to be President?
Great question.
This is where we are honest.
I am reminded that Donny Drumph has a bachelor's from the Wharton School (he brags about it constantly as he stands up for the working men and women)...
Quote
"I went to the Wharton School of Finance, the toughest place to get into. I was a great student,"
...nevertheless, I would probably want someone with the laurels in the Oval Office.
One third of House members and one half of Senate members have law degrees. Fewer would be better.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 09:06:22 AM
Hmmmm.... thanks again:
1) I stand shamefacedly corrected wrt the notion that the ability of people to follow nutty thinking is only something that the lesser educated are susceptible to. That is false. What I think is *not* false is the idea that college education does indeed inculcate both superior critical thinking skills and the increased widespread knowledge base (much better if the college education is liberal arts) needed to use those critical thinking skills to their best advantage.
Kay, I'm sure all of us could enumerate MANY people with advanced degrees, including those with PhDs in the liberal arts, who exhibit
little to no critical thinking skills in many life situations. It's hard to believe you're not being satirical with these sweeping statements.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 30, 2022, 12:02:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 09:06:22 AM
Hmmmm.... thanks again:
1) I stand shamefacedly corrected wrt the notion that the ability of people to follow nutty thinking is only something that the lesser educated are susceptible to. That is false. What I think is *not* false is the idea that college education does indeed inculcate both superior critical thinking skills and the increased widespread knowledge base (much better if the college education is liberal arts) needed to use those critical thinking skills to their best advantage.
Kay, I'm sure all of us could enumerate MANY people with advanced degrees, including those with PhDs in the liberal arts, who exhibit little to no critical thinking skills in many life situations. It's hard to believe you're not being satirical with these sweeping statements.
It's not only liberal arts types Marshie. Most of my career has been spent working with people with professional doctorates - MD, DO, PharmD etc. They are all as smart as a tree full of owls in their day jobs. But an awful lot of them are as thick as 2 short planks once they've left the office/clinic/hospital.
My father in law (god rest his soul) was an electrician with a 10th grade education. Yet, he was comfortable talking to the well educated as well as those further down the educational spectrum. I suspect this is because he was always curious. He wanted to know stuff, do stuff and experience stuff. And it made him a guy I miss 40 years after his all to early death.
Quote from: secundem_artem on May 30, 2022, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 30, 2022, 12:02:44 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 09:06:22 AM
Hmmmm.... thanks again:
1) I stand shamefacedly corrected wrt the notion that the ability of people to follow nutty thinking is only something that the lesser educated are susceptible to. That is false. What I think is *not* false is the idea that college education does indeed inculcate both superior critical thinking skills and the increased widespread knowledge base (much better if the college education is liberal arts) needed to use those critical thinking skills to their best advantage.
Kay, I'm sure all of us could enumerate MANY people with advanced degrees, including those with PhDs in the liberal arts, who exhibit little to no critical thinking skills in many life situations. It's hard to believe you're not being satirical with these sweeping statements.
It's not only liberal arts types Marshie.
No argument there; I was just responding to Kay's
"much better if the college education is liberal arts" comment.
Quote
Most of my career has been spent working with people with professional doctorates - MD, DO, PharmD etc. They are all as smart as a tree full of owls in their day jobs. But an awful lot of them are as thick as 2 short planks once they've left the office/clinic/hospital.
My father in law (god rest his soul) was an electrician with a 10th grade education. Yet, he was comfortable talking to the well educated as well as those further down the educational spectrum. I suspect this is because he was always curious. He wanted to know stuff, do stuff and experience stuff. And it made him a guy I miss 40 years after his all to early death.
My grandfather only had a Grade 8 education, but he was one of the wisest people I ever knew. I miss him too.
Any simple answer to these sorts of debates will come up short.
For instance, there is this on climate change beliefs and education (https://socialsciences.nature.com/posts/how-are-education-and-political-ideology-related-to-climate-change-beliefs-around-the-world) which would seem to suggest that cognitive bias and political orientation are what dictates how people think.
Quote
Studies show that education has rather modest effects on climate change beliefs when we look at society as a whole (e.g. Hornsey et al., 2016; Lewandowsky & Oberauer, 2016). Instead, when we examine political groups separately, it turns out that for people on the political left the conventional wisdom is correct: the more educated they are, the more likely they are to believe that climate change is occurring and is caused by humans. In contrast, for the political right, education has modest effects on climate change beliefs and some findings even suggest that the educated are less likely to think that climate change is occurring, is caused by humans, or that we should do something about it (e.g., Drummond & Fischhoff, 2017; Hamilton, 2011; Kahan et al., 2012). These paradoxical effects of education led some to conclude that targeting education or public understanding of science is of little use when it comes to changing climate change beliefs. Learning about these findings was intriguing: how is it even possible that people who are better equipped to understand science endorse scientific knowledge to a lesser extent than those who have lower levels of education?
This phenomena, and this very discussion, simply illustrates how the culture wars are affecting our modes of thinking.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 30, 2022, 01:29:01 PM
Any simple answer to these sorts of debates will come up short.
For instance, there is this on climate change beliefs and education (https://socialsciences.nature.com/posts/how-are-education-and-political-ideology-related-to-climate-change-beliefs-around-the-world) which would seem to suggest that cognitive bias and political orientation are what dictates how people think.
Quote
Studies show that education has rather modest effects on climate change beliefs when we look at society as a whole (e.g. Hornsey et al., 2016; Lewandowsky & Oberauer, 2016). Instead, when we examine political groups separately, it turns out that for people on the political left the conventional wisdom is correct: the more educated they are, the more likely they are to believe that climate change is occurring and is caused by humans. In contrast, for the political right, education has modest effects on climate change beliefs and some findings even suggest that the educated are less likely to think that climate change is occurring, is caused by humans, or that we should do something about it (e.g., Drummond & Fischhoff, 2017; Hamilton, 2011; Kahan et al., 2012). These paradoxical effects of education led some to conclude that targeting education or public understanding of science is of little use when it comes to changing climate change beliefs. Learning about these findings was intriguing: how is it even possible that people who are better equipped to understand science endorse scientific knowledge to a lesser extent than those who have lower levels of education?
This phenomena, and this very discussion, simply illustrates how the culture wars are affecting our modes of thinking.
For an issue with the opposite bias, look at how groups accept the science about biological sex, for instance as it affects athletic performance. On the left science is completely ignored in favour of ideology.
The culture wars definitely affect our modes of thinking at both (noisy!) ends of the political spectrum. The plurality near the centre who largely accept science are often drowned out in public discourse.
I get that many folks back in the day, who never saw the inside of a college, were very smart, good critical thinkers, statesmen, etc., but things have changed, and many of these people were essentially autodidacts, back in the day when people who never went to college, even finished high school, read and read widely, and consumed highbrow educational opportunities such as old-style documentaries, PBS, etc. This is just not the case today. Most people in this social and educational class have actually come to eschew, often hate, education, esp higher education-- polls are now showing that a majority of GOP votership actually thinks colleges are bad for America. etc.
I was thinking about a story I read somewhere recently, which pointed out, correctly, that nowadays in the US, cigarette smoking, once common across socioeconomic lines, has largely, amongst adults, become confined to the working and lower classes and especially correllated with non-college education (1/3 of adults with only a hs diploma still smoke, as opposed to 5% of those with a graduate degree). The author speculated that this was because the latter group simply has more knowledge and thus is less likely to risk smoking. I think this is largely in error. Nowadays, outside of perhaps some mentally handicapped people, how many American adults do not know that cigarette use is bad? Some folks who started smoking as rebellious teens may have simply been unable to quit, but since we have now done a pretty good job preventing cig sales and use to minors (we now have a strict 21 year old cig age nationwide), many people are smoking, I suspect, because it is a 'f*** you, libtards' social/ tribal identity marker.
WRT my mechanic who thinks that Bill Gates engineered chips in the covid vax, what was I supposed to say to the guy? I confess, perhaps for self-interested reasons< I did keep my mouth shut when he said it. The same way I kept my mouth shut when the guy in my church told me the vax would rewrite his DNA. That man was very intelligent-- he graduated first in his class at the union HVAC apprenticeship program. He is also now dead. The propaganda he bathed his brains with, and lacked the critical thinking skills to analyze appropriately, told him things that were just not true, and he acted on those lies, to his great hurt.
I have also been musing about the tendency of the educated to be more likely to have bought into the lies wrt vaxxes and autism. This is true. But, consider this-- many of these folks had kids diagnosed with autism, and were probably not thinking rationally and looking for something to blame. It is true that correllation does not equal causation, but educated folks know that correllations *may* indicate causation, and warrant scientific investigation (if I put that frozen pizza into a 450F degree oven for a half an hour, it is no longer frozen then, and the causation is clear enough). Also, these people did not come to this conclusion in a vacuum... they are used to trusting scientific conclusions. And, in this case, the conclusion was a paper written by a credentialled MD researcher and published in Britain's leading medical journal. Obviously it was debunked later, but it was reasonable for people to consider it seriously when it was published.
QuoteNowadays, outside of perhaps some mentally handicapped people, how many American adults do not know that cigarette use is bad?
Nowadays, outside of working stiffs, how many American adults know that
smoking cigarettes is a great pleasure?
We must not assume that everybody who has different tastes from us is stupid. Otherwise, we wind up taking the vote away from people we don't agree with.
[By the way, cigarette smoking declined since about 1950, when there weren't all that many intellectuals, and certainly a lot since the 1990's when cigarette taxes were increased -- rightly -- to capture the extra medical cost that smokers impose on society.]
There were a great many highly educated Nazis.
From my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
In defense of K16, I truly believe education helps our students (even our bad ones, even ones who do not finish the degree) to develop cognitive tools and critical thinking skills which they might not have otherwise. And no, I am not saying "college is the only way" to develop said skills (which always seems to be the strawman) but it is a very good way.
As we should always remember, education is not just about getting a job.
QuoteFrom my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
The cigarette smoker, no longer a conformist, would benefit from therapy.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2022, 05:15:22 PM
I have also been musing about the tendency of the educated to be more likely to have bought into the lies wrt vaxxes and autism. This is true. But, consider this-- many of these folks had kids diagnosed with autism, and were probably not thinking rationally and looking for something to blame.
Research indicates that critical thinking and IQ are virtually uncorrelated. Also, critical thinking often doesn't happen unless people are primed for it in a specific situation. (They will normally just think the "normal" way, and don't really think deeply unless and until they're made aware that this situation explicitly requires it.)
(I
think that may have come from "Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgement" by Daniel Kahneman; it was from some book I read not too long ago but I can't recall specifically.)
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 06:40:04 PM
QuoteFrom my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
The cigarette smoker, no longer a conformist, would benefit from therapy.
Or rehab.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 30, 2022, 08:25:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 06:40:04 PM
QuoteFrom my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
The cigarette smoker, no longer a conformist, would benefit from therapy.
Or rehab.
Irony.
Smokers have always have had fun smoking.
There are costs and there are benefits to smoking. Some people's decisions are different from ours. Some are less risk averse, some are more risk averse.
There is no reason it should matter to the rest of us.
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 08:42:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 30, 2022, 08:25:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 06:40:04 PM
QuoteFrom my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
The cigarette smoker, no longer a conformist, would benefit from therapy.
Or rehab.
Irony.
Smokers have always have had fun smoking.
There are costs and there are benefits to smoking. Some people's decisions are different from ours. Some are less risk averse, some are more risk averse.
There is no reason it should matter to the rest of us.
I do not make other people's smoking any of my business.
And some people just love it. I quit and I've never stopped missing my cigarettes.
One could make the argument that smoking actually costs society a great deal of money and therefore is our business (https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/economics/econ_facts/index.htm#:~:text=Cost%20of%20Smoking%2DRelated%20Illness,%24300%20billion%20each%20year%2C%20including%3A&text=More%20than%20%24225%20billion%20for,due%20to%20secondhand%20smoke%20exposure), but freedom is a dangerous thing. Let'em smoke. That's the smoker's right.
I am just pointing out that in this day and age we often see smoking associated with other problems such as drug addiction (https://nida.nih.gov/news-events/nida-notes/2018/05/cigarette-smoking-increases-likelihood-drug-use-relapse#:~:text=The%20researchers%20found%20that%20people,than%20those%20who%20quit%20smoking.). Thus, if you are looking at people smoking despite what we know about the health risks, you may very well have a symptom of other dangerous problems, not a matter of education or IQ.
Long ago I was told that the experts think that 30% of high school grads should go to college. 60% should get a 2 year vocational diploma and 10% should go straight to work. It makes sense to me that college should be for those significantly above average in intelligence and a love for learning. Many business students should be in some sort of business trade school. I know that they have these in Europe since I met some students in this kind of school.
QuoteOne could make the argument that smoking actually costs society a great deal of money and therefore is our business, ... .
Smokers were net monetary contributors to society before excise taxes rose, and not counting those excise taxes:
Smokers do have higher health care costs, but enough smokers die early of lung cancer so a lot of social security payments are saved. This outweighs the extra health care costs.
Meanwhile, excise taxes have been raised to cover extra public health care costs.
Quotewe often see smoking associated with other problems such as drug addiction. Thus, if you are looking at people smoking despite what we know about the health risks, you may very well have a symptom of other dangerous problems,
Yeah, therapy for having fun and taking risks is apparently what's needed.
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 08:42:25 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 30, 2022, 08:25:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 30, 2022, 06:40:04 PM
QuoteFrom my own experience, the menially-employed cigarette smoker is often someone who has a great many problems in life, substance abuse prime among these problems, and unable to launch. The cigarettes are a manifestation of some other issue than critical thinking or information literacy.
The cigarette smoker, no longer a conformist, would benefit from therapy.
Or rehab.
Irony.
Smokers have always have had fun smoking.
There are costs and there are benefits to smoking. Some people's decisions are different from ours. Some are less risk averse, some are more risk averse.
There is no reason it should matter to the rest of us.
The decision to smoke, and continue to do so, is not based strictly on critical thinking and intellectual capacity. The problem is that we are not robots, we are biological creatures with a social structure and are inherently different biologically.
Many of us smoked when we were younger. Some of us quit, others still smoke. We all knew it was bad for our health, finances, etc., but decided to start anyway due to social pressures. This is definitely not a matter of critical thinking since we all knew these things, it is a matter of social structure. This extends to beliefs, where you are more likely to support the beliefs of your peers even if they are spurious and defy fact (ie young Earth christians....).
The "decision" to continue smoking is also not really based on a rational thought process. Again, we all know it is bad for us and most people would like to quit, but it is not that simple. I know some people who can smoke periodically then quit fairly easy, while others just cant kick the habit even when they try. I smoked briefly in high school, but was able to quite fairly easily while I have friends who were never able despite many attempts. It was just easier for me. Likewise, some people can go tho the casino periodically and have a good time, while others develop a problem and end up gambling away their house. These choices have little to do with rational thought or critical thinking, and much more to do with your biological predisposition. Perhaps there is a link, but it is not that clear cut IMO.
In the case of university, I really do think it is more correlation than causation. Sure, my critical thinking likely improved during my studies, but I think the bigger part is that people who are naturally good critical thinkers are simply more likely to go to university in the first place. There is also a huge environmental (family/social structure) component involved in this. People who grow up in households that value and support higher learning are probably more likely to read to children at a young age and foster these characteristics throughout their upbringing.
Quote from: Kron3007 on June 01, 2022, 08:49:33 AM
... people who are naturally good critical thinkers are simply more likely to go to university in the first place. There is also a huge environmental (family/social structure) component involved in this. People who grow up in households that value and support higher learning are probably more likely to read to children at a young age and foster these characteristics throughout their upbringing.
The mechanistic underpinnings are crucial to understand if one is to plan for the future student body, whether the goal is to have the institution get enough students to survive, or it is to have a student body more ethnically representative of the overall population.
A competitive school is going to have trouble attracting and retaining a brilliant young person whose parents think college is frivolous and who did not read to the kid nor engage in critical dialogue throughout their life. Some schools try gaming the admissions criteria and offering full aid to get the student to matriculate, but then leave the student to flounder without needed social support or habits of mind.
Quote from: dismalist on May 31, 2022, 02:13:34 PM
QuoteOne could make the argument that smoking actually costs society a great deal of money and therefore is our business, ... .
Smokers were net monetary contributors to society before excise taxes rose, and not counting those excise taxes:
Smokers do have higher health care costs, but enough smokers die early of lung cancer so a lot of social security payments are saved. This outweighs the extra health care costs.
Smokers were also contributing to the economy through working, paying taxes, and supporting their families. The widows and orphans left behind can be a source of survivor benefits, paid for by taxpayers. So, not sure it's a net net.
Quote
Meanwhile, excise taxes have been raised to cover extra public health care costs.
Are you sure it's sufficient to cover the excess costs? The tobacco lobby works pretty hard to make sure cigarettes remain affordable.
Quote from: ciao_yall on June 05, 2022, 04:53:22 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 31, 2022, 02:13:34 PM
QuoteOne could make the argument that smoking actually costs society a great deal of money and therefore is our business, ... .
Smokers were net monetary contributors to society before excise taxes rose, and not counting those excise taxes:
Smokers do have higher health care costs, but enough smokers die early of lung cancer so a lot of social security payments are saved. This outweighs the extra health care
Smokers were also contributing to the economy through working, paying taxes, and supporting their families. The widows and orphans left behind can be a source of survivor benefits, paid for by taxpayers. So, not sure it's a net net.
Quote
Meanwhile, excise taxes have been raised to cover extra public health care costs.
Are you sure it's sufficient to cover the excess costs? The tobacco lobby works pretty hard to make sure cigarettes remain affordable.
I said smokers contributed on net, not counting excise taxes, so surely more with the higher excise taxes specifically justified by higher health care costs.. The loss of income taxes is also in the calculations.
Smokers contributing to the economy? Widows, orphans?
There's less money left over for them when the smokers are dead! Don't marry a smoker and/or get more people to smoke!
Forgetting about second hand smoke, what exactly is it about the coffin nails that makes their use something that should be considered anything other than a, pun intended, cancer on society?
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 05, 2022, 05:48:02 PM
Forgetting about second hand smoke, what exactly is it about the coffin nails that makes their use something that should be considered anything other than a, pun intended, cancer on society?
Smokers more than pay their way!
Ok, let's factor in the enormous health care costs they incur, the costs of supporting survivors after smokers pass prematurely, etc.
And then let's talk about second hand smoke.
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 05, 2022, 06:13:28 PM
Ok, let's factor in the enormous health care costs they incur, the costs of supporting survivors after smokers pass prematurely, etc.
And then let's talk about second hand smoke.
Ah, but we have talked about costs! The fewer the number of smokers, the less money is around for nice stuff.
Second hand smoke has a nuisance value, of course. Segregate smokers from non smokers, no worries.
As for second hand smoke being a carcinogen, that was junk science.
I wonder if dismalist is serious saying that second-hand smoke dangers are junk science.
I see that the CDC says "Since the 1964 Surgeon General's Report, 2.5 million adults who were nonsmokers died because they breathed secondhand smoke.....Exposure to secondhand smoke has immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system and can cause coronary heart disease and stroke. Secondhand smoke causes nearly 34,000 premature deaths from heart disease each year in the United States among nonsmokers." https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/health_effects/index.htm
If dismalist is sincere in that statement, we could investigate that as an example of how a high level of education does not prevent people from disbelieving science.
I'm curious: For people who are concerned about the costs of smoking to society and the economy, do you support legalization of cannabis (which also produces respiratory and other problems) and the decriminalization or legalization of opiates and other drugs, and if so, why?
Since over the past few decades increased restriction on sales and marketing of tobacco products has reduced the incidence of smoking-related illness, I am baffled by the apparent contradiction in encouraging increased legal access to other substances with similar (or worse) problems associated with them. (Increased legal restrictions on alcohol have also reduced drunk driving, etc.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 06, 2022, 04:33:35 AM
I'm curious: For people who are concerned about the costs of smoking to society and the economy, do you support legalization of cannabis (which also produces respiratory and other problems) and the decriminalization or legalization of opiates and other drugs, and if so, why?
Since over the past few decades increased restriction on sales and marketing of tobacco products has reduced the incidence of smoking-related illness, I am baffled by the apparent contradiction in encouraging increased legal access to other substances with similar (or worse) problems associated with them. (Increased legal restrictions on alcohol have also reduced drunk driving, etc.)
No one here (or basically anywhere) is calling for making tobacco or alcohol illegal-- that's a straw man if ever there was one. The comparison to criminalizing cannabis is not regulating alcohol, it is banning alcohol, and we know how well prohibition worked out.
There is no contradiction-- both are exactly the same goal-- reducing overall costs and harms to society. I'm not a user myself, but I'm all for legalization: Legalizing cannabis reduces the black market and makes it
more regulated- sold to those 21 and over, safety inspected for contaminants, etc. in addition to reducing the monetary and society costs of policing and incarcerating people for use, and raising substantial tax revenue for societal good. Not the mention, a lot of cannabis sales are not for edibles, which don't carry the same second hand smoke problem.
Nor have I seen anyone here suggest legalizing opiates and other drugs-- decriminalizing possession of small amounts and diverting to treatment instead is different, and I would support that.
This is some serious thread drift...
Quote from: Hegemony on June 05, 2022, 11:55:00 PM
I wonder if dismalist is serious saying that second-hand smoke dangers are junk science.
I see that the CDC says "Since the 1964 Surgeon General's Report, 2.5 million adults who were nonsmokers died because they breathed secondhand smoke.....Exposure to secondhand smoke has immediate adverse effects on the cardiovascular system and can cause coronary heart disease and stroke. Secondhand smoke causes nearly 34,000 premature deaths from heart disease each year in the United States among nonsmokers." https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/health_effects/index.htm
If dismalist is sincere in that statement, we could investigate that as an example of how a high level of education does not prevent people from disbelieving science.
Wahoo will get angry if we pursue this here, but I'll quit the subject after this post.
When the EPA first declared second hand smoke a Class 1 carcinogen, it did so based on a meta analysis of nearly 20 studies. [Sorry, I'm doing this from memory.] It cherry-picked which studies to include, and lowered the significance level to 90 %. Subsequent studies yield mixed results. That doesn't seem to stop the CDC, but it stops me.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 06, 2022, 07:58:10 AM
This is some serious thread drift...
Somewhat, although it illustrates the fact that even "college-educated" people can have strong disagreements about "science", so the very idea that people with less formal education should listen to people with more formal education because the latter will have some "clearer" understanding is flawed.
Quote from: dismalist on June 06, 2022, 08:09:52 AM
Wahoo will get angry if we pursue this here, but I'll quit the subject after this post.
???
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 06, 2022, 07:58:10 AM
This is some serious thread drift...
That was my thought as well.
Awwright, drift it is. Before trying to refocus, I gotta ask the main question about denial of the dangers of second hand smoke-- if *first hand* cig smoke is bad, how does being in reasonable proximity to a smoker and inhaling some of his smoke somehow make that smoke not bad? I do recall the late 1970s, when I, around 12yo, was struggling with repeated respiratory infections and ear infections (likely almost certainly greatly exacerbated by my abnormally large adenoids which were taken out later that year). My pediatrician decided to have my mom take me to an allergist to see if I might be allergic to anything. I went twice, had numerous allergens tested-- I suspect that the tech for doing this must be better than it was in 1979, btw, and the guy did not find anything. I recall sitting in the exam room whilst he and mom talked. He asked her if she smoked, and she said she did- she did not quit for almost twenty more years. He told her she should not be doing that, even though he did not say I was actually allergic to tobacco. We never went back, and when I asked mom about it, she was evasive and said she did not like something about him, attitude, whatever. I did not press it. Like it or not, there is really no doubt now, with 2022 knowledge, that her smoking habit was not exactly beneficial for my health. Ah well.
Now to try to de-drift things, wrt non-college educated adults and smoking. Smoking causes numerous health concerns, including second hand residua on the children, and of course said children are *vastly* more likely to become smokers themselves. Smoking kills people early, causing additional societal financial and other costs, too, and even those poorer and often less-educated smokers end up smoking away large quantities of their money. It is little different from buying lotto tix in this regard.
Question to Wahoo and others:
In a case like this, where thread drift has occurred, but the OP has continued to follow the drift, as Kay has done WRT smoking, is that "drift" still a matter of concern? Is the problem with drift that the title doesn't reflect the current discussion, or is it something else?
(Serious question; I'm honestly curious.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2022, 05:25:54 AM
Question to Wahoo and others:
In a case like this, where thread drift has occurred, but the OP has continued to follow the drift, as Kay has done WRT smoking, is that "drift" still a matter of concern? Is the problem with drift that the title doesn't reflect the current discussion, or is it something else?
(Serious question; I'm honestly curious.)
Can't speak for Wahoo, but I was simply making an observation.
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2022, 05:25:54 AM
Question to Wahoo and others:
In a case like this, where thread drift has occurred, but the OP has continued to follow the drift, as Kay has done WRT smoking, is that "drift" still a matter of concern? Is the problem with drift that the title doesn't reflect the current discussion, or is it something else?
(Serious question; I'm honestly curious.)
I'm very concerned!!!
In fact, I am enraged!!!!
Fie upon the drifters!!!!
Wahoo has now spoken for Wahoo.
Just for context, I raised the issue because of previous discussions about moderation of the Fora, and I recall one of the matters that came up was thread "derailment" ("hijacking", etc.). I think of these discussions kind of like various conversations among pockets of people at a party, where people join and leave and the discussion is in constant flux. Others may view individual threads on here more like seminars at a conference, where whatever one you enter should be basically devoted to what it says on the sign outside the door.
Fie!!! Fie, I say!!!! Fie! Fie! Fie!
I have started to smoke again to deal with the stress...
My advanced education has not given me the critical thinking skills to deal with this level of Fie!!!
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2022, 10:50:57 AM
Just for context, I raised the issue because of previous discussions about moderation of the Fora, and I recall one of the matters that came up was thread "derailment" ("hijacking", etc.). I think of these discussions kind of like various conversations among pockets of people at a party, where people join and leave and the discussion is in constant flux. Others may view individual threads on here more like seminars at a conference, where whatever one you enter should be basically devoted to what it says on the sign outside the door.
I agree with your view, but that doesn't mean that topic shift is always good. There's a difference between organic, mutually agreeable drift, which is what seems to have happened here, and derailment/hijacking, which is when one individual tries to force a shift--often to a pet topic that had already been discussed elsewhere. Especially if the same individual repeatedly does that on multiple threads, always toward the same pet topic.
Even at the most fluctuating, free-ranging party, there's still going to be a collective groan when Zuzu's weird boyfriend strolls up--you know, the one who's always banging on about cryptocurrency.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 07, 2022, 10:54:46 AM
Fie!!! Fie, I say!!!! Fie! Fie! Fie!
I have started to smoke again to deal with the stress...
My advanced education has not given me the critical thinking skills to deal with this level of Fie!!!
That is a very impressive redirection back to the original topic!
Quote from: ergative on June 07, 2022, 12:03:25 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 07, 2022, 10:50:57 AM
Just for context, I raised the issue because of previous discussions about moderation of the Fora, and I recall one of the matters that came up was thread "derailment" ("hijacking", etc.). I think of these discussions kind of like various conversations among pockets of people at a party, where people join and leave and the discussion is in constant flux. Others may view individual threads on here more like seminars at a conference, where whatever one you enter should be basically devoted to what it says on the sign outside the door.
I agree with your view, but that doesn't mean that topic shift is always good. There's a difference between organic, mutually agreeable drift, which is what seems to have happened here, and derailment/hijacking, which is when one individual tries to force a shift--often to a pet topic that had already been discussed elsewhere. Especially if the same individual repeatedly does that on multiple threads, always toward the same pet topic.
Even at the most fluctuating, free-ranging party, there's still going to be a collective groan when Zuzu's weird boyfriend strolls up--you know, the one who's always banging on about cryptocurrency.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 07, 2022, 10:54:46 AM
Fie!!! Fie, I say!!!! Fie! Fie! Fie!
I have started to smoke again to deal with the stress...
My advanced education has not given me the critical thinking skills to deal with this level of Fie!!!
That is a very impressive redirection back to the original topic!
Maybe you guys should start a thread on it..... 😉
Reactions: I do not trust auto mechanics, at all. They are salesmen, trying to sell you repairs that you may not need at prices too high. You may need the repair in the future, not now. Whenever money is exchanged, the chance of fraud or deception is present.
The old myth is that Ph.D.s are supposed to be the smartest out there. Of course, that is often untrue but they know their narrow specialty. Even Einstein might have been ignorant outside of math and physics. Academic also means a moot point, stuff that doesn't matter. So you get disrespect and insolence from students and maybe from family members.
Non college educated persons have no idea what goes on in a classroom and don't care to know, in my experience. They undervalue it unless the degree brings a good job and a lot of money! Something tangible.
Really, the attitude is very old. I recall it in the Sixties on campuses.
I agree with the poster who said that Ph.D. professors can spew nonsense within or outside their expertise. I know two or three.
Quote from: Myword on June 12, 2022, 07:19:14 AM
Non college educated persons have no idea what goes on in a classroom and don't care to know, in my experience. They undervalue it unless the degree brings a good job and a lot of money! Something tangible.
Really, the attitude is very old. I recall it in the Sixties on campuses.
I agree with the poster who said that Ph.D. professors can spew nonsense within or outside their expertise. I know two or three.
The attitude is even older than that. The term "school of hard knocks" dates from the turn of the 20th century, and distrust of college appears in a great deal of popular culture from the early part of the century (such as the Marx Brothers in "Horsefeathers" and how the Scarecrow gets his "brain" in "The Wizard of Oz," for example). In general, the biggest knuckleheads in comedies and farces of the period were recent college graduates.
Quote from: little bongo on June 12, 2022, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: Myword on June 12, 2022, 07:19:14 AM
Non college educated persons have no idea what goes on in a classroom and don't care to know, in my experience. They undervalue it unless the degree brings a good job and a lot of money! Something tangible.
Really, the attitude is very old. I recall it in the Sixties on campuses.
I agree with the poster who said that Ph.D. professors can spew nonsense within or outside their expertise. I know two or three.
The attitude is even older than that. The term "school of hard knocks" dates from the turn of the 20th century, and distrust of college appears in a great deal of popular culture from the early part of the century (such as the Marx Brothers in "Horsefeathers" and how the Scarecrow gets his "brain" in "The Wizard of Oz," for example). In general, the biggest knuckleheads in comedies and farces of the period were recent college graduates.
I'll say it again: there is a healthy part of any population that would love to see college grads----and particularly profs----put back in their place.
I don't think the biases are nearly as overt in the Tower as they are on the street.
QuoteI do not trust auto mechanics, at all. They are salesmen, trying to sell you repairs that you may not need at prices too high. You may need the repair in the future, not now. Whenever money is exchanged, the chance of fraud or deception is present.
This is wise behavior in all markets with information asymmetry, where one side of the transaction knows less about the product than the other side of the transaction. Auto repair is a good example [you need new brakes], as is health care [you don't need that uterus, madam], and ... higher education [you do need to know that Sonnet]! :-)
Sonnet or be a philistine!
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on June 12, 2022, 09:39:25 PM
Sonnet or be a philistine!
Easy man, Bloomsday is approaching! :-)
Quote from: little bongo on June 12, 2022, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: Myword on June 12, 2022, 07:19:14 AM
Non college educated persons have no idea what goes on in a classroom and don't care to know, in my experience. They undervalue it unless the degree brings a good job and a lot of money! Something tangible.
Really, the attitude is very old. I recall it in the Sixties on campuses.
I agree with the poster who said that Ph.D. professors can spew nonsense within or outside their expertise. I know two or three.
The attitude is even older than that. The term "school of hard knocks" dates from the turn of the 20th century, and distrust of college appears in a great deal of popular culture from the early part of the century (such as the Marx Brothers in "Horsefeathers" and how the Scarecrow gets his "brain" in "The Wizard of Oz," for example). In general, the biggest knuckleheads in comedies and farces of the period were recent college graduates.
Well...it's not totally off-base. I'm sure all of us here have seen some real "knuckleheads" who managed to graduate while continuing to exhibit knucklehead behavior. More seriously, many recent college grads do find themselves kind of adrift and wondering what to do next. I've seen this called "the quarter-life crisis." These recent grads have traditionally been a principal recruiting ground for graduate programs, but they seem to have less fertile hunting now. They certainly succeeded in snaring me three decades ago!
I think that in many fields, people who have completed their academic/theoretical studies but lack concrete experience are seen as somewhat half-baked. This seems to be the case in the military, medicine, teachers, lawyers, etc. I don't think is so much a denigration of education per se but the understanding that education itself is incomplete without practical experience.
I don't think I would trust an auto mechanic, but this is similar to many people who hold specialized knowledge that is both important and worth a premium. Several years ago, my dentist said I needed a root canal and it would cost thousands of dollars after the implant, etc., were done. Since it had not been that long since my last check up and I was in no pain, I was somewhat skeptical. I went to another dentist for a second opinion, who not only confirmed that I needed a root canal, but said I needed a second root canal (although the cost of both of these cost less than what the first dentist was charging for one root canal). This is why, with dentists and mechanics, I try to go with providers recommended by people I trust. But this has nothing to do with dentistry (or medicine) requiring more or less intelligence than auto mechanics, although it certainly requires more formal education.
QuoteI'll say it again: there is a healthy part of any population that would love to see college grads----and particularly profs----put back in their place.
Just out of curiosity, what, exactly, is my place?
(Don't judge on the commas...grammar was never a strong suit)
Quote from: waterboy on June 13, 2022, 02:25:58 PM
QuoteI'll say it again: there is a healthy part of any population that would love to see college grads----and particularly profs----put back in their place.
Just out of curiosity, what, exactly, is my place?
(Don't judge on the commas...grammar was never a strong suit)
Sorry man, but water boys are usually waiting on the bench.
Well played! But seriously, not sure what you meant by that (previous) comment.
Quote from: waterboy on June 14, 2022, 04:06:22 AM
Well played! But seriously, not sure what you meant by that (previous) comment.
To "put someone in their place" is a colloquialism for defeating a person's arrogance and reminding them that they are not better than anyone else. I believe the phrase is a reference to the British caste system, but I am not sure.
In the context of this discussion, my comment "there is a healthy part of any population that would love to see college grads----and particularly profs----put back in their place" refers to the defensiveness of some non-college-grad people who assume educated people "look down on them" (also a colloquialism).
Quote from: apl68 on June 13, 2022, 08:00:15 AM
Quote from: little bongo on June 12, 2022, 08:53:32 PM
Quote from: Myword on June 12, 2022, 07:19:14 AM
Non college educated persons have no idea what goes on in a classroom and don't care to know, in my experience. They undervalue it unless the degree brings a good job and a lot of money! Something tangible.
Really, the attitude is very old. I recall it in the Sixties on campuses.
I agree with the poster who said that Ph.D. professors can spew nonsense within or outside their expertise. I know two or three.
The attitude is even older than that. The term "school of hard knocks" dates from the turn of the 20th century, and distrust of college appears in a great deal of popular culture from the early part of the century (such as the Marx Brothers in "Horsefeathers" and how the Scarecrow gets his "brain" in "The Wizard of Oz," for example). In general, the biggest knuckleheads in comedies and farces of the period were recent college graduates.
Well...it's not totally off-base. I'm sure all of us here have seen some real "knuckleheads" who managed to graduate while continuing to exhibit knucklehead behavior. More seriously, many recent college grads do find themselves kind of adrift and wondering what to do next. I've seen this called "the quarter-life crisis." These recent grads have traditionally been a principal recruiting ground for graduate programs, but they seem to have less fertile hunting now. They certainly succeeded in snaring me three decades ago!
Oh, I'm in complete agreement there. I was well past my quarter-life crisis when I entered the snare myself.