I have alluded to the reality that I live in a depressed city, full of poverty and loads of drugs/ users. And such folks regularly solicit donations in the parking lot of Big Box Retail Emporium where I have my night job, at lofty wage. Several times I have been solicited for such donations by obviously addicted people, and customers regularly complain about being harassed by such solicitors in the PL as well. Tonight, after a long Christmastide shift, mostly standing of course, I walked out of the store at c. 11:10pm, and got into my car, which was not able to be parked particularly close to the bldg. As I was checking my phone before leaving, a woman who I had passed on the way out, again an obviously addicted one, who had been too late to enter the now closed store, suddenly appeared at the door, somewhat startling me. Cig in hand, she gave me a line about wanting money for her and her BF to get food at the nearby McDs, set to close at midnight. SHe was not polite about it either, and I was curt, but decided to give her two bucks, something I do not always do. I also told her not to approach a car like this, in the dark, as it could produce a depressing reaction from the driver. She was nonplussed and asked for more money, which I did not give her. She then called me an 'asshole' under her breath as she nonetheless took my two bucks, which I felt like changing my mind about giving her (I did change my mind about a donation once last year, after a guy laid into me with a tirade). I have refrained from ever suggesting that the addict in question enter the store and apply for employment, even though I have thought about it. What are your thoughts here?
I'm not sure what you mean by a "depressing" reaction. If you mean a violent reaction, that's probably a fair warning. But people who are down and out, and possibly mentally disturbed, and very probably on a substance, are not likely candidates for cool and reasoned reactions. As the saying goes, "Expectations are premeditated resentments," and expecting a polite response from her is probably futile.
As for suggesting that she apply for a job at the store — it's really just a way of saying "You're a freeloader and you should get a job!", isn't it? In actual fact, as I know from trying to give guidance to an acquaintance who became homeless, it is difficult verging on impossible to get a job when you don't have an address. (Or a place to shower and wash your clothes.) So she could go in there and apply, but the chances they would hire her are minuscule. Once people have become that level of down and out, climbing back up takes a whole lot of determination, support, and sheer luck. I sympathize with your exasperation — "Why are there so many people in this position and why are they hassling me all the time!" But if there were easy answers, society would have found them already.
Sounds like you handled the situation as well as possible. I almost never give to the people asking for money at the place I get my coffee in the morning.
My only recommendation would be to not check your phone in the car that late at night. Get in and get going as quickly as you can.
For a while, I would keep some easy open tuna, or some other things like poptarts or breakfast bars. When someone said that they were hungry like that, instead of money, I would give them the food.
On another day, I was approached in the parking lot of Wally World and was asked for money to feed a family that was out of money and on their way to somewhere. I told them to meet me at the nearby burger stand and bought them what they wanted. He asked, "is it ok if we order X?" I said to order what you like for you and the family. I then over paid and told the cashier to give them the change.
In general by giving food, the need is met and there is no chance that the money will be diverted to something other than food.
Quote from: clean on December 16, 2023, 09:28:20 AMFor a while, I would keep some easy open tuna, or some other things like poptarts or breakfast bars. When someone said that they were hungry like that, instead of money, I would give them the food.
On another day, I was approached in the parking lot of Wally World and was asked for money to feed a family that was out of money and on their way to somewhere. I told them to meet me at the nearby burger stand and bought them what they wanted. He asked, "is it ok if we order X?" I said to order what you like for you and the family. I then over paid and told the cashier to give them the change.
In general by giving food, the need is met and there is no chance that the money will be diverted to something other than food.
In my area, they have now started asking for money for car parts, saying their car is broken down.
About a year ago, I was in the liquor store, and the guy in front of me was paying with change for a small bottle of some of that nasty Taaka vodka. He was pretty dirty, and he didn't have shoes (not even flip flops). He came up short, so I put a couple of dollars on the counter for him. He seemed embarrassed, but I just told him, "Inflation's killing us all, brother." The clerk didn't even bat an eye.
I'm not sure that was a good deed--at all, but sometimes we just need to get through the day we're living in.
After some incidents when I was younger and always living in big cities, I have decided never to give money again, and I haven't. I have a number of concerns over escorting to get food, so I don't do that either.
There are a number of scams that have been around for decades, maybe even over a century! A big one is not having money for a train ticket (they usually dress up enough to make it look like they are "normal" and believable as someone who would normally have their pass or have money for a ticket if they forgot the pass, etc.). The car parts one has been around for a long time in more rural communities (and is even featured in a flashback scene in "Better Call Saul").
I've given small flyers about the hours and address of the local day shelter to panhandlers standing at the bottom of a busy exit ramp. Or they'll go from car to car looking for money. I stopped doing it since it was the same people over and over.
People asking for money at gas stations--gotten that too.
If there's a homeless shelter and outreach center in your town or city, consider donating money there.
Chime on keeping your car doors locked!
I don't usually have cash on me, so instead I offer to buy them something from the store (usually panhandling happens to me at the gas station or outside a grocery store). Usually they decline, but once in a while someone takes me up on it. I don't usually let people get so close though. Safety first.
As kind as you were, Kay, your money probably didn't go to food. And the reaction of your beneficiary makes me think of meth, which truly turns people evil and hostile, just flaming Ids furiously seeking a fix. Probably your beneficiary knows where to get food and shelter already. Still, you were kind, and that's never to be sneezed at. I wouldn't do it again, however. I got to where I would simply say, as nicely as I could, "I'm sorry, but I don't have any cash" and just keep walking, even when they called me names.
Make sure you are safe.
It is surely human to wish to give to people in need. This is clearly consistent with evolutionary biology. But while it is efficient in face-to-face societies, where we know who we are giving to, it isn't useful in an anonymous society.
My first long-term view, rather than occasional view, of panhandlers was only from the 1990's. On my walk from the Metro station to work I passed a panhandler every day. He was sitting on the sidewalk, up against the wall of a building, one leg covered with a blanket -- right next to an ATM! And what's under the blanket? A leg, a crutch, a weapon, nothing?
Smart panhandler I thought! Just like retailing. Success depends on location, location, location. A competitive industry in other words. But of course here the strongest, not the most efficient, will obtain and defend the best locations.
As such, the more panhandlers earn, the more panhandlers we will have.
There are institutions, including government institutions, to take care of people in need. Let them do their jobs.
Thus, I don't give panhandlers anything.
What was it Scrooge said, "Are there no workhouses?" Eb had his head screwed on, I guess. Certainly the best response to matters these days, so close to Cratchitland.
Me, well, if braced for a handout in the lot of the mart, I will often say, "OK, here's a bill."
What they DO with it, is not my concern. If you are reduced to begging in this (fairly) opulent economy, I don't care what you plan on buying: booze, drugs or burgers.
If we spurn our least, what can we think of ourselves?
Merry Christmas, folks.
Some thoughts:
1. I agree that it is not a good idea to become distracted by your phone in this situation.
2. Give people money or not, as you wish. However, it seems pointless (and sort of mean spirited) to lecture people you are giving money to about the wonders of work or good manners. They don't seem to care, and the only thing it would accomplish is to anger them and make yourself feel superior.
3. Offering to give somebody money, and then deciding to not give them money, while your right (because it is your money) seems both petty and somewhat dim. Again, they probably do not care about your sense of propriety, and, as you note, could evince a really negative reaction, and at the most, will leave you feeling superior.
4. Lecturing somebody who is asking for money about the virtue of hard work seems likewise pointless and perhaps dim. And if you do tell somebody that they should apply for work at your place of employment, are you prepared to serve as a reference?
So my advice--which is based on living in a city with a large homeless population, including immediately around my home, and also having lived in several third world countries in which there is a much larger homeless population--is either give people money, or not. (I sometimes do, and I sometimes don't, and I don't pretend to have any real explanation why I sometimes do and sometimes don't.) But I would urge you to resist the temptation to use the interaction to impart a lesson to the person you are (or are not) giving money to. There is nothing to be gained from that, and there is in fact a risk in doing so. If I give somebody a dollar (or more), I do not assume that gives me any particular right to lecture that person on how to use the money or how to live their life.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 15, 2023, 10:43:35 PMI have alluded to the reality that I live in a depressed city, full of poverty and loads of drugs/ users. And such folks regularly solicit donations in the parking lot of Big Box Retail Emporium where I have my night job, at lofty wage. Several times I have been solicited for such donations by obviously addicted people, and customers regularly complain about being harassed by such solicitors in the PL as well. Tonight, after a long Christmastide shift, mostly standing of course, I walked out of the store at c. 11:10pm, and got into my car, which was not able to be parked particularly close to the bldg. As I was checking my phone before leaving, a woman who I had passed on the way out, again an obviously addicted one, who had been too late to enter the now closed store, suddenly appeared at the door, somewhat startling me. Cig in hand, she gave me a line about wanting money for her and her BF to get food at the nearby McDs, set to close at midnight. SHe was not polite about it either, and I was curt, but decided to give her two bucks, something I do not always do. I also told her not to approach a car like this, in the dark, as it could produce a depressing reaction from the driver. She was nonplussed and asked for more money, which I did not give her. She then called me an 'asshole' under her breath as she nonetheless took my two bucks, which I felt like changing my mind about giving her (I did change my mind about a donation once last year, after a guy laid into me with a tirade). I have refrained from ever suggesting that the addict in question enter the store and apply for employment, even though I have thought about it. What are your thoughts here?
The Wal-mart near our campus, where all the college kids shop, has the most panhandlers of any Wal-mart in our metro area. They come out between the hours of sundown and and 11-ish. I sometimes go there, sometimes at 11-ish. At that hour, I walk fast and confidently in the parking lot, I alertly get in and out of my car very quickly, tossing my purchases into the passenger side front seat, and then I start the car up and vamoose out of my spot before a panhandler can approach.
I grew up on the West coast where the homeless are thick on the ground. I actually had a homeless sister after she got so out of control no one could help her. I don't want to sound judgmental, because there are all sorts of 'there-but-for-the-grace-of-God' reasons that people are homeless, but the theory for some is that giving money does not actually help people get help, it simply propagates the problem.
That, and the homeless can be dangerous----no all, certainly, but you never know.
Quote from: lightning on December 16, 2023, 11:41:05 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on December 15, 2023, 10:43:35 PMI have alluded to the reality that I live in a depressed city, full of poverty and loads of drugs/ users. And such folks regularly solicit donations in the parking lot of Big Box Retail Emporium where I have my night job, at lofty wage. Several times I have been solicited for such donations by obviously addicted people, and customers regularly complain about being harassed by such solicitors in the PL as well. Tonight, after a long Christmastide shift, mostly standing of course, I walked out of the store at c. 11:10pm, and got into my car, which was not able to be parked particularly close to the bldg. As I was checking my phone before leaving, a woman who I had passed on the way out, again an obviously addicted one, who had been too late to enter the now closed store, suddenly appeared at the door, somewhat startling me. Cig in hand, she gave me a line about wanting money for her and her BF to get food at the nearby McDs, set to close at midnight. SHe was not polite about it either, and I was curt, but decided to give her two bucks, something I do not always do. I also told her not to approach a car like this, in the dark, as it could produce a depressing reaction from the driver. She was nonplussed and asked for more money, which I did not give her. She then called me an 'asshole' under her breath as she nonetheless took my two bucks, which I felt like changing my mind about giving her (I did change my mind about a donation once last year, after a guy laid into me with a tirade). I have refrained from ever suggesting that the addict in question enter the store and apply for employment, even though I have thought about it. What are your thoughts here?
The Wal-mart near our campus, where all the college kids shop, has the most panhandlers of any Wal-mart in our metro area. They come out between the hours of sundown and and 11-ish. I sometimes go there, sometimes at 11-ish. At that hour, I walk fast and confidently in the parking lot, I alertly get in and out of my car very quickly, tossing my purchases into the passenger side front seat, and then I start the car up and vamoose out of my spot before a panhandler can approach.
Wally-hell after 10:00 pm has never been a particularly safe place to be. Of course, I'm so old I remember when Walmart wasn't 24/7. Okay, I remember when Walmarts were kind of rare and exotic. I'm just old . . .
Here, there's usually a panhandler at the bottom of each exit ramp on the interstate through town. Standing at a stoplight on the divider of a divided roadway is also a popular location. I usually keep a few $1 bills tucked into my visor and hand them out as circumstances allow. I have no idea if these folks are homeless, meth addicts, alcoholics, or mentally ill. But dear gawd, they look like they are doing life the hard way. I really don't care where they spend the money.
The only time I got pissed off was when what I surmise was an Afghan refugee accepted his dollar, pointed to his wife and child sitting on the grass and asked for more money. He got another buck and light turned green.
I don't shop at Walmart. I wouldn't even shoplift at Walmart. So I've never had Kay's problem. Target does not seem to attract the same kind of poor people.
We don't see a great deal of this sort of thing in our small town, but there is some panhandling by transients around the highway and businesses there now and then. I don't recall having ever witnessed it for myself--even at Wal-Mart. Local churches and aid groups are hit up all the time. They compare notes to keep an eye on "frequent flyers."
Those who work with people in need regularly often develop a pretty good sense regarding who's scamming and who's not. Mostly the ones they encounter around here are not. Of course there's no way not to get conned at least once in a while short of never giving any help at all, which is not an option. The occasional gift to the undeserving is just a cost of doing business. As one guy I know says, "If you help the needy, get ready to deal with the greedy."
I've worked with several of the local helpers some. The director of the local Chamber of Commerce maintains a "blessing box" with canned goods and hygiene supplies open to all comers. The head of the local food pantry just raised money for 300 Christmas hams to give to their clients tomorrow. And we've got somebody local who gives out $200 gift cards every year anonymously to needy households recommended by some of those mentioned above. I once recommended one of my staff members for one when she was going through a tough spot.
It's rather shocking, when I go to cities like Little Rock and even Fayetteville, how many panhandlers can now be seen at the highway exits. I've given to some panhandlers in the streets and parking lots now and then. Or bought food or lunch for them. Sometimes they want somebody to talk to. Sometimes they'll accept prayers, although I don't push it if they decline. Since the pandemic I've pretty much stopped giving cash, since there's food available in more places than before for those who are honestly hungry, and cash is so very easily abused.
Random clarifications and observations:
1) I meant what I said wrt approaching suddenly could have depressing consequences- what if the intended donor had been armed? In any case, I cannot, this time of year, just gas the car up and depart, because I do need to warm up the windshield enough to clear the fog and be safe to drive.
2) The reason, at least the main reason, that I do not tell such people to head on into the store and apply for work is that, well, I do not want to insult 'em, as I know that, however low our hiring standards in Rusty City are nowadays, these folks still would not meet them and thus be able to be hired. That said, I certainly do support, and have said things like this on these fora before, the notion that those who can work should be working (and the state should give them work if needed), and that those who, for reasons of mental illness or active addiction, cannot work should be placed somewhere where they would not have to freeze to death whilst wallowing in their own human waste. In the case of the mentally ill, this would of course be clean, decent hospitals where they can get whatever treatment would be available, and forced to accept such treatment, and in the case of irredentist (and lawbreaking) junkies, well.... hi ho hi ho, it's off to jail you go. For both their own good and the good of society, which does have some rights.
3) Similarly to the point I have been raising wrt expensive dental crowns, I am constrained to point out that people like me, who work very low wage jobs in depressed areas, simply cannot afford to pony up beaucoup bucks for all solicitors, and are also much much less likely to be interested in supplying any of our limited supply of funds to junkies who call us 'assholes'. And bear in mind that my encounter with this woman was after 11pm, and after I had been on my feet for 8+ hours working the register-- my lymphedema-laden legs felt like telephone poles, and I just wanted to go home. Nothing in the life of the average tenured university professor equates to this.
4) Someone pointed out that Tarzhay does not generally attract such denizens, and this is no accident. They do not want these folks around, and their much more affluent core customer demographic absolutely does not want to encounter them there. So what do you think is likely Tarzhay's response when and if such people appear in their lots (or inside the stores, which, BTW, are usually not placed in sites like Rusty City, in the first place)? Of course, Wallyworld could and should police its parking lots to keep its associates and decent paying customers safe, and we could probably debate/ discuss, why it does not do so, in the main...
With regard to the lack of panhandling around Target vs. Wal-Mart, it appears to me that Targets tend to be located in more affluent areas that are harder to get to on foot or by bus. That said, I've personally never seen panhandlers around a Wal-Mart (apart from the very occasional driver begging for gas), but have seen them near (though not right outside) a Target before. So the dichotomy of Wal-Mart attracting panhandlers and Target not doing so may not be a thing in all locations.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 18, 2023, 08:51:37 PM2) the notion that those who can work should be working (and the state should give them work if needed), and that those who, for reasons of mental illness or active addiction, cannot work should be placed somewhere where they would not have to freeze to death whilst wallowing in their own human waste. In the case of the mentally ill, this would of course be clean, decent hospitals where they can get whatever treatment would be available, and forced to accept such treatment, and in the case of irredentist (and lawbreaking) junkies, well.... hi ho hi ho, it's off to jail you go. For both their own good and the good of society, which does have some rights.
God bless'ya, brother, but if working with the indigent were only so simple.
From my experience, keeping a mentally ill addict in a safe, clean place is no small task: these folks don't want to be constrained any more than you or I do, and they are often compelled to seek their fix out in the world no matter what. Add to this the lack of available money and space and we end up with all sorts of people wandering the streets.
Who is going to pay for clean, descent hospitals? These are very expensive facilities and treatment is often extensive and can take years; some folks have difficulties so intense we do not have viable treatments for them. As the many debates about funding academia have repeatedly illustrated, we have a lot of priorities to pay for.
Then there is the problem of basic freedom. It is not illegal to be eccentric, even in extremity, and there are often regulations against panhandling, but it is not illegal to casually ask someone for money or to insult them----nor should there be. Society has rights, after all, to be weird.
Additional points:
1) Tarzhay cannot control panhandlers who are active off of its property. I stand by my assessment that you are likely never going to see such folks ON Tarzhay land, however, and my assessment as to why this is the case.
2) Those clean and decent hospitals into which I wish to place homeless mentally ill folks will cost money. Yes indeedee. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes well noted, 'I like paying taxes, for when I pay taxes, I am buying civilization.'
3) There is a difference between 'eccentricity', which certainly must be allowed in a free society, and dangerous, threatening, neighborhood-blighting behavior. Really, there is, and of course, those mentally ill folks, not being in right possession of their faculties, ought not to be allowed to wallow in their own filth howling at the moon, and/or 'self-medicating' with street drugs, either.
4) A question for fora Canadians and Europeans: from all that I have heard, you simply do not see the homelessness issues, and associated problems, such as everything from open drug use/ sales to nip bottles and assorted detritus dirtying up the streets (even to the point of causing puddling owing to clogging up of storm drains)-- is this true, and, if so, why is it?
I was panhandled in the supermarket parking lot today, and in memory of this thread, I gave the panhandler a substantial bill.
As for Europeans — I spend a good deal of my time in Cambridge (UK), and Cambridge certainly has homelessness problems. It has had for quite some time — when I lived there in the '80s, my housemate worked nights at a homeless shelter, so I heard a lot about it.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 20, 2023, 10:02:18 PM4) A question for fora Canadians and Europeans: from all that I have heard, you simply do not see the homelessness issues, and associated problems, such as everything from open drug use/ sales to nip bottles and assorted detritus dirtying up the streets (even to the point of causing puddling owing to clogging up of storm drains)-- is this true, and, if so, why is it?
Not true for Canada; we have homeless problems, although usually not to the extent of the U.S. *Better social programs make a difference. The Downtown East Side in Vancouver is legendary for drug problems. One of the confounding issues is that "safe injection" or "harm reduction" sites make those areas magnets for people with drug problems.
(*AND more than two political parties, so every issue isn't flattened into some simple FOR or AGAINST dichotomy. There is still some room for nuance. For instance, in the debate about harm reduction it's usually
not a debate about the
cost, but rather about whether it
works.)
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 20, 2023, 10:02:18 PMAdditional points:
1) Tarzhay cannot control panhandlers who are active off of its property. I stand by my assessment that you are likely never going to see such folks ON Tarzhay land, however, and my assessment as to why this is the case.
2) Those clean and decent hospitals into which I wish to place homeless mentally ill folks will cost money. Yes indeedee. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes well noted, 'I like paying taxes, for when I pay taxes, I am buying civilization.'
3) There is a difference between 'eccentricity', which certainly must be allowed in a free society, and dangerous, threatening, neighborhood-blighting behavior. Really, there is, and of course, those mentally ill folks, not being in right possession of their faculties, ought not to be allowed to wallow in their own filth howling at the moon, and/or 'self-medicating' with street drugs, either.
There is a difference between, as a buddy of mine puts it, between the person who is homeless due to a brief spell of bad luck and "naked machete man."
Quote4) A question for fora Canadians and Europeans: from all that I have heard, you simply do not see the homelessness issues, and associated problems, such as everything from open drug use/ sales to nip bottles and assorted detritus dirtying up the streets (even to the point of causing puddling owing to clogging up of storm drains)-- is this true, and, if so, why is it?
Affordable housing, healthcare, and a generous social safety net.
But isn't this a bit of a myth?
I saw obviously homeless folks in Finland and Canada for sure. Possibly not as bad of a problem.
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 21, 2023, 11:19:08 AMBut isn't this a bit of a myth?
I saw obviously homeless folks in Finland and Canada for sure. Possibly not as bad of a problem.
Myth? It's the opposite of the truth.
Homeless per 10,000 inhabitants
UK 54
France 45
Sweden 36
Germany 31
USA 18
How is "homeless" defined in these stats? Is it the same for each country? It's not the same as rough sleepers. People are homeless if they are living in their cars, or in shelters, right?
Presumably there's some reasonably good social science on the causes of homelessness and on which policies reduce homelessness. I guess the interpretation of the info has some ideological component, but I'd hope it is possible to get at least some widespread agreement about what the science says.
Though doing 10 mins of internet searching makes me less optimistic about finding neutral ground on the issue.
These are all countries that create and report point-in-time estimates.
Australia, Belgium (Brussels CapitalRegion), Colombia, Costa Rica, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Ireland, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Slovak Republic and the United States
collect homelessness data based on point-in-time estimates. [OECD]
I'm guessing that our perceptions of the extent of homelessness are biased by its concentration. So, in the US many homeless move to California where the sun is warm, the legal tolerance of the homeless is high, and the money spent on the homeless is generous. That, then, is where the news stories about the homeless originate, and that's what we see. In highly decentralized Germany, where average homelessness is higher than in the US, the weather is chilly everywhere, benefits are the same everywhere, legal tolerance is much the same everywhere [except perhaps in Berlin] there is little concentration, so one doesn't see much in any one place.
There was a thread about homelessness a while back. I reported that high rents make for more homelessness, and high rents are caused by little new building, in turn due to zoning by NIMBY's, in other words our fellow man.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 20, 2023, 10:02:18 PMAdditional points:
2) Those clean and decent hospitals into which I wish to place homeless mentally ill folks will cost money. Yes indeedee. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes well noted, 'I like paying taxes, for when I pay taxes, I am buying civilization.'
Well...I might be willing to agree with you, but many Americans do not. That is a whole big can of rotten worms there. Reagan is infamous for shuttering mental health facilities, and his devotees love him for these sorts of actions.
Quote3) There is a difference between 'eccentricity', which certainly must be allowed in a free society, and dangerous, threatening, neighborhood-blighting behavior.
We already have laws that address these things. If someone becomes violent, run and dial 9-1-1.
QuoteReally, there is, and of course, those mentally ill folks, not being in right possession of their faculties, ought not to be allowed to wallow in their own filth howling at the moon, and/or 'self-medicating' with street drugs, either.
Kind'a gotta disagree with most of what you are saying here.
We already have laws regarding drunk and disorderly or drunk in public or simply disorderly and the use of illegal street drugs. No need to create them. If these are a problem, call 9-1-1.
As for walling and howling, those are protected activities even if you or I don't like them.
It's pretty important that we not go down the road of curtailing people's behavior as long as it is not directly threatening or violent----this includes howling at the moon and bathing. That is a slope we do not want to slip on.
Quote4) A question for fora Canadians and Europeans: from all that I have heard, you simply do not see the homelessness issues, and associated problems, such as everything from open drug use/ sales to nip bottles and assorted detritus dirtying up the streets (even to the point of causing puddling owing to clogging up of storm drains)-- is this true, and, if so, why is it?
Homelessness has existed as long as their have been human beings. We used to call them "beggars" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturdy_beggar) or "witches" or, apparently, "Jack." (https://www.victorianlondon.org/crime/beggars.htm)
People don't know or forget this. Homelessness, insanity, and panhandling are as old as civilization.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 21, 2023, 09:18:09 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on December 20, 2023, 10:02:18 PMAdditional points:
2) Those clean and decent hospitals into which I wish to place homeless mentally ill folks will cost money. Yes indeedee. As Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes well noted, 'I like paying taxes, for when I pay taxes, I am buying civilization.'
Well...I might be willing to agree with you, but many Americans do not. That is a whole big can of rotten worms there. Reagan is infamous for shuttering mental health facilities, and his devotees love him for these sorts of actions.
This is one of those things that can come from either end of the political spectrum. In Ontario, in the 90's, the push to get people out of mental institutions was from
the left, concerned about their personal freedom. (The problem was that without additional community-based resources, many just became homeless.)
Like many other problems, these issues are complex and trying to strike the right balance is always going to result in some cases where the result seems unfair or unreasonable.
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2023, 12:13:48 PMQuote from: Ruralguy on December 21, 2023, 11:19:08 AMBut isn't this a bit of a myth?
I saw obviously homeless folks in Finland and Canada for sure. Possibly not as bad of a problem.
Myth? It's the opposite of the truth.
Homeless per 10,000 inhabitants
UK 54
France 45
Sweden 36
Germany 31
USA 18
Interesting.
What is their definition of "homeless?" If someone is living in supportive housing or couch-surfing, do we still consider them homeless?
Or do they only consider people homeless if they live in shelters or tents?
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 22, 2023, 08:17:31 AMQuote from: dismalist on December 21, 2023, 12:13:48 PMQuote from: Ruralguy on December 21, 2023, 11:19:08 AMBut isn't this a bit of a myth?
I saw obviously homeless folks in Finland and Canada for sure. Possibly not as bad of a problem.
Myth? It's the opposite of the truth.
Homeless per 10,000 inhabitants
UK 54
France 45
Sweden 36
Germany 31
USA 18
Interesting.
What is their definition of "homeless?" If someone is living in supportive housing or couch-surfing, do we still consider them homeless?
Or do they only consider people homeless if they live in shelters or tents?
The definitions vary by country. The OECD collects them.
The US has a narrow definition. An exact definitional match among the countries we are comparing the United States to are Canada, at 0.36%, double the United States, and France at 0.22%, a tad above the United States, say equal to.
I will say that the apparently homeless man that I met in Finland was very polite and fluent in English.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 22, 2023, 05:00:36 AMThis is one of those things that can come from either end of the political spectrum. In Ontario, in the 90's, the push to get people out of mental institutions was from the left, concerned about their personal freedom. (The problem was that without additional community-based resources, many just became homeless.)
Reagan just closed the hospitals without a net of any sort. It was not concern about people's freedom----which, as I posted to K16, is a pretty big issue and needs to be carefully monitored----it was a concern with money.