The Fora: A Higher Education Community

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: downer on December 23, 2020, 07:05:08 AM

Title: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 23, 2020, 07:05:08 AM
So now that 2 vaccines are available, a number of issues arise.

What priority will college faculty be given in the waiting lists? Will they be classed as "teachers"?

I'm also wondering whether health insurance will cover it, and how much it will cost.

Then there's the issue of whether colleges will require faculty to get it in order to be on campus. Could it be required as a condition of employment? Will it be? Will there be lawsuits about that?

Will students be required to get vaccinated to be on campus in the fall? Is it realistic to expect to back to "normal" in the fall?



Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 23, 2020, 07:19:12 AM
I think the answer to most of these are actually already known:
QuoteWhat priority will college faculty be given in the waiting lists? Will they be classed as "teachers"?
Almost certainly not, though ultimately each state will decide.
QuoteI'm also wondering whether health insurance will cover it, and how much it will cost.
Assuming you are in the US, there is no cost to the individual-- the federal government has purchased the doses.
QuoteThen there's the issue of whether colleges will require faculty to get it in order to be on campus. Could it be required as a condition of employment? Will it be? Will there be lawsuits about that?
There is legal precedence for employers requiring vaccinations as a condition of employment, so I expect most will.
QuoteWill students be required to get vaccinated to be on campus in the fall? Is it realistic to expect to back to "normal" in the fall?
There is no question that students can legally be required to have vaccinations -- they are already required to provide proof of other vaccinations on most campuses. So provided there are enough doses available, yes, I'm sure they will be, and that would let things go pretty much back to normal. Whether that happens at the start of fall semester or not until a bit later I think still isn't clear.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 23, 2020, 07:42:37 AM
I agree that it is unlikely that university employees/faculty probably wont be in the first round of vaccinations as essential employees.

I agree that the government purchased the vaccine and that there will not be a charge for the vaccine.  (However, depending on how or where the shots are given, there may be an administration fee for those giving the shots, but insurance should cover that, and otherwise, it is not likely to be more than $25, tops).

I dont think that the vaccine will be required, though.  However, I dont think that the university will be as eager to keep providing accommodations for those requesting online classes once the vaccine is available.  IF you choose NOT to get the shot, you can not require the university to provide you special scheduling.

As for students being required to get the shots, I dont think that the university will do ANYTHING to keep students (' tuition dollars) from returning as quickly as possible. 

The combination of the faculty being able/required to teach in person, and students not being required to take the shot, I think that there will be sufficient motivation for faculty to get the shots.  Students are still at the 'invincible age' and as they have generally not had significant deaths, or in the case of asymptomatic spreaders, any negative affects, they may be slow to take it, and even if they wanted, would likely be lower on the list gaining access.

Just my thoughts.  Im sure that the devil is in the details.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: marshwiggle on December 23, 2020, 07:47:10 AM
Quote from: clean on December 23, 2020, 07:42:37 AM

As for students being required to get the shots, I dont think that the university will do ANYTHING to keep students (' tuition dollars) from returning as quickly as possible. 


If there are students who can't get the shots for some medical reason, then will the university be liable if they are put at risk by (voluntarily) unvacinated students? This is a kind of mess I can envision.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on December 23, 2020, 07:58:12 AM
How about university staff?  I assume that most of them won't be high on the vaccination priority list either.  Except, in some areas perhaps, food service workers. 

Nobody has said anything about librarians falling into essential worker categories, although we work with the public.  I'm wondering what to do about staff vaccinations in a few months.  I plan to get the shot as soon as it's available.  But we've got one staff member who has had an allergic reaction to a vaccine in the past, and another who sounds like she's been listening to the wrong kind of radio programs and doesn't want to take a vaccine.  I don't care to force anybody to get a vaccine, but at some point whether or not a staff member has been vaccinated will become an issue.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 23, 2020, 07:58:48 AM
How will people prove they have been vaccinated? Is there going to be a state or national registry? (Hard to imagine politicians going for this in the US.) Will there be standard forms signed by some health care professional? If so, will there be a market in fake certifications among those who resist vaccinations but need to show their employers or schools they have done it?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 23, 2020, 08:01:10 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 23, 2020, 07:19:12 AM
I think the answer to most of these are actually already known:
QuoteWhat priority will college faculty be given in the waiting lists? Will they be classed as "teachers"?
Almost certainly not, though ultimately each state will decide.
QuoteI'm also wondering whether health insurance will cover it, and how much it will cost.
Assuming you are in the US, there is no cost to the individual-- the federal government has purchased the doses.
QuoteThen there's the issue of whether colleges will require faculty to get it in order to be on campus. Could it be required as a condition of employment? Will it be? Will there be lawsuits about that?
There is legal precedence for employers requiring vaccinations as a condition of employment, so I expect most will.
QuoteWill students be required to get vaccinated to be on campus in the fall? Is it realistic to expect to back to "normal" in the fall?
There is no question that students can legally be required to have vaccinations -- they are already required to provide proof of other vaccinations on most campuses. So provided there are enough doses available, yes, I'm sure they will be, and that would let things go pretty much back to normal. Whether that happens at the start of fall semester or not until a bit later I think still isn't clear.

I guess there could be some justification for instructors being somewhere above the "general population" on the waiting list, but I'd hope it will be below lots of other people, including teachers, who either can't stay home or shouldn't.

My employer required everyone-even people who haven't set foot on campus since March, to attest that they had received the flu vaccine or had a valid medical reason not to receive it. I assume they'll at least do that for the Covid Vaccine in the fall if it is fully available.

The problem with predictions is that you run into a bunch of different variables that are all very uncertain. There's the question of how quickly production and distribution of the vaccines can actually be done-but there are also still lots of vaccine trials in the works that might have results in the next two months. Those could potentially really increase the supply. Then there's the question of how much the vaccines will limit spread of the virus by inoculated people. If vaccines have a big effect on transmission, you could have case numbers go way down once you start getting large segments of the population vaccinated even before you reach anything approaching herd immunity. But that's a lot of different uncertainties to throw into the blender.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 23, 2020, 08:15:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 23, 2020, 07:47:10 AM
Quote from: clean on December 23, 2020, 07:42:37 AM

As for students being required to get the shots, I dont think that the university will do ANYTHING to keep students (' tuition dollars) from returning as quickly as possible. 


If there are students who can't get the shots for some medical reason, then will the university be liable if they are put at risk by (voluntarily) unvacinated students? This is a kind of mess I can envision.

Most schools already require students to have vaccinations. A couple of semesters ago I got a message that a student in my class couldn't come to class until they showed proof of their vaccinations. Not sure what the backstory was, but a few days later I got another note that the student was cleared to come to class. We had to sign an attestation that we got the flu vaccine this winter. I imagine lots of schools might do something similar. In the long run, this could be part of the standard vaccination forms, but I suspect that it might not be logistically feasible to actually verify that everyone has gotten the vaccine. I don't really know anything about the legal issues, but none of this is brand new and I assume you have to clear a pretty high bar to sue an institution or business based on acquiring a disease. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 23, 2020, 08:17:39 AM
Yes to the uncertainties of coverage, in particular.

Remember that Cotton Mather and Zabdiel Boylston's first innoculation trial only reduced the smallpox death rate from 15% to--what? 4-6%

Out of the 200+ people in that trial, several still died, just not 30 of them.

No preventative effort is perfectly efficacious.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 23, 2020, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: downer on December 23, 2020, 07:58:48 AM
How will people prove they have been vaccinated? Is there going to be a state or national registry? (Hard to imagine politicians going for this in the US.) Will there be standard forms signed by some health care professional? If so, will there be a market in fake certifications among those who resist vaccinations but need to show their employers or schools they have done it?

There is a CDC record card, and an app: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/expect.html
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 23, 2020, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 23, 2020, 08:17:39 AM
Yes to the uncertainties of coverage, in particular.

Remember that Cotton Mather and Zabdiel Boylston's first innoculation trial only reduced the smallpox death rate from 15% to--what? 4-6%

Out of the 200+ people in that trial, several still died, just not 30 of them.

No preventative effort is perfectly efficacious.

M.

No, but the good news is that the two approved vaccines both do much better than that, and the early signs are that they tend to prevent severe disease too.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mythbuster on December 23, 2020, 08:40:34 AM
I think we are about to see the ultimate in states rights, as every state has the right to interpret these rules as they see fit. If your state lumps university workers in with teachers or essential workers, then you will get the vaccine faster.

In terms of it being required, there is a big difference here in terms of how it has been approved. These vaccines have been approved for emergency use. It is my understanding from reading in public health sources that EU authorization cannot be used for the same legal mandate as other vaccinations. But again, your state may have their own interpretation.

When you get vaccinated you get a card. It is signed by the overseeing physician and has the information about which lot your dose came from.  This info can be a sticker from the vial or can be handwritten. My friend who are PCPs have been posting photos of their vaccination cards on Facebook this week as they get their first dose.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: larryc on December 23, 2020, 02:49:33 PM
I expect that nearly all universities will require proof of vaccination from students and staff.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 23, 2020, 03:27:23 PM
Quote from: Caracal on December 23, 2020, 08:37:58 AM
Quote from: mamselle on December 23, 2020, 08:17:39 AM
Yes to the uncertainties of coverage, in particular.

Remember that Cotton Mather and Zabdiel Boylston's first innoculation trial only reduced the smallpox death rate from 15% to--what? 4-6%

Out of the 200+ people in that trial, several still died, just not 30 of them.

No preventative effort is perfectly efficacious.

M.

No, but the good news is that the two approved vaccines both do much better than that, and the early signs are that they tend to prevent severe disease too.

True.

We have come a little ways since 1721.

But all the brou-ha-ha's about whether it's safe or not, and who gets it, and "not in my neighborhood," all that were just as pernicious then as now, too.

So--maybe not so far.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: RatGuy on December 24, 2020, 07:52:14 AM
Our Dean has relayed that we'll get access to the Pfizer vaccine sometime between mid-Jan and mid-March, depending on availability. It'll be administered through the University medical center, and will be optional. Since the university is pushing for more in-class instruction (we traced zero cases of contact to the classroom in fall 2020), instructors are encouraged to get the vaccines. I find it interesting that my colleagues who most want the vaccine are the ones who have opted out of in-person instruction. I do think the University will prioritize those instructors who will regularly be in the classroom or live on-campus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: marshwiggle on December 24, 2020, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 24, 2020, 07:52:14 AM
Our Dean has relayed that we'll get access to the Pfizer vaccine sometime between mid-Jan and mid-March, depending on availability. It'll be administered through the University medical center, and will be optional. Since the university is pushing for more in-class instruction (we traced zero cases of contact to the classroom in fall 2020), instructors are encouraged to get the vaccines. I find it interesting that my colleagues who most want the vaccine are the ones who have opted out of in-person instruction.

Wouldn't that make sense if they were concerned about the risk of covid infection? In-person isn't a desirable option unless and until everyone has been vacinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on December 24, 2020, 09:10:34 AM
My state has been indicating, when queried, that college instructors and school staff that interact with students regularly are to be categorized as teachers.  But yes, it's a state by state thing,and within each school there may also be interpretation.

The vaccine is free, but if you get it at a doc office they can charge for the visit. Best to get through a pharmacy visit to your school or pharmacy direct,when possible (i think direct from pharmacies will not be possible during the first six months of triage..they won't want to deal with requiring proof that you are an EMT or teacher, etc.).

Yes, states and municipalities, etc. can require inoculation. These always get challenged at some level, but never to the extent that they are voided. It's probably tougher for an employer to do on their own, but I don't think it's blatantly illegal to try.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 24, 2020, 09:31:03 AM
Quote from: downer on December 23, 2020, 07:58:48 AM
How will people prove they have been vaccinated? Is there going to be a state or national registry? (Hard to imagine politicians going for this in the US.) Will there be standard forms signed by some health care professional? If so, will there be a market in fake certifications among those who resist vaccinations but need to show their employers or schools they have done it?

I'm imagining the emergence of "clubs," where only the vaccinated have access. For example, instead of a traditional "happy hour," a bar could host a "vaccinated only" hour where entrants during the "vaccinated only hour" have to show not only proof of age and identity, they also have to show their vaccination certificate. The vaccinated will wear wristbands, just like the same wristbands that people wear when they have proven that they are old enough to be in the bar.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on December 24, 2020, 12:12:34 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 24, 2020, 08:27:08 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 24, 2020, 07:52:14 AM
I find it interesting that my colleagues who most want the vaccine are the ones who have opted out of in-person instruction.

Wouldn't that make sense if they were concerned about the risk of covid infection? In-person isn't a desirable option unless and until everyone has been vacinated.

Yes, it makes total sense to me that the people who are the most concerned about coronavirus are the ones who don't want to teach in-person and who are most eager to get the vaccine. What's contradictory about those two things?  I myself fit both categories.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 26, 2020, 07:10:02 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on December 24, 2020, 09:10:34 AM

(i think direct from pharmacies will not be possible during the first six months of triage..they won't want to deal with requiring proof that you are an EMT or teacher, etc.).


Pharmacies providing direct vaccinations does seem to be the plan. It makes a certain amount of sense to use places that already have existing infrastructure to provide vaccinations. EMTs are already being vaccinated, I think that is easy enough because you either give the vaccine at the workplace or it is scheduled through work, so you don't have to deal with issues of verification. Other categories like age aren't particularly problematic to verify. After that, I suspect it is going to be almost impossible. The problem is that the more documentation you require the more you are going to make it difficult for people to get it and you risk increasing inequities.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: PScientist on December 26, 2020, 09:18:50 AM
At my workplace, the existing vaccination requirements for students are based on state law, which requires all public and private educational institutions at every level to verify documentation of 2 doses of MMR or one of the allowed exemptions.  It seems appropriate to me to amend that law to require a Covid vaccine as soon as it is widely available and fully approved for younger people.  (But in spite of the fact that both halves of our state legislature and the governor's office are currently controlled by the Democrats, getting any legislation passed here is still surprisingly difficult.)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on January 13, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
Some places are allowing college faculty who are teaching in-person classes to get vaccinations now.  If you can find a place that has a spare appointment slot. But at this point, that is not so easy.

The people I have talked to who have made appointments have had their patience tested sorely by having been given misleading and conflicting info, dealt with crappy websites, and asked for info which they could not possibly have.

So business as usual for most things to do with health care in the US.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on January 13, 2021, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: downer on January 13, 2021, 08:37:38 AM
Some places are allowing college faculty who are teaching in-person classes to get vaccinations now.  If you can find a place that has a spare appointment slot. But at this point, that is not so easy.

The people I have talked to who have made appointments have had their patience tested sorely by having been given misleading and conflicting info, dealt with crappy websites, and asked for info which they could not possibly have.

So business as usual for most things to do with health care in the US.

This is the case at my place. I'm getting my first dose next week.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 13, 2021, 10:45:36 AM
Our state is planning to open vaccination up to anybody over 70 next week. 

My nurse friend at church who has actually been working with COVID patients has now had her first shot.  She hasn't mentioned any side effects other than a sore arm.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 13, 2021, 12:55:49 PM
The Governor has also clarified that starting Monday higher education faculty and staff in actual contact with students will be eligible for vaccination, in addition to school teachers.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on January 19, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
Got my first shot about three hours ago (Pfizer). Feeling fine and looking forward to the next dose in ~3 weeks.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 20, 2021, 06:33:19 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on January 19, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
Got my first shot about three hours ago (Pfizer). Feeling fine and looking forward to the next dose in ~3 weeks.

Congratulations!

At our scheduled Rotary Club meeting for tomorrow our speaker will be from the local pharmacy that has the vaccine.  He says that if we can get together a group of 10 Rotarians or spouses who qualify, he'll give them a round of shots right then.

Meanwhile my parents are on a long waiting list at their local vaccination center.  Par for the course at this point.

The Mayor says that they are trying to get together a time for city workers to be vaccinated as essential staff.  I made them promise to include the library staff in that (They sometimes forget that we're a city office too).  I want to at least encourage the front desk staff to get vaccinated ASAP.  One is a senior citizen who is already working on it.  I'm hoping to persuade another to stop listening to whatever garbage she's been hearing on the radio and do the right thing. 

I don't know how long it will take to get city staffers their chance.  If there's not enough to go around I'm prepared to wait longer, since I don't have as much direct contact with the public.  If at all possible, though, I plan to get the shot to try to show a good example.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on January 20, 2021, 01:21:39 PM
I have been waiting with resignation for all these many months, but now that the vaccine is on the horizon, I find myself really, really impatient. However, our state is way down on the list of states getting the vaccine out. Apparently we're not getting nearly as much delivered as was requested, and the vaccine that has been delivered is not being administered very efficiently. I presume someone has been vaccinated, but no one I know has.

And I am way down the list of eligible categories, even though I'm on the brink of several others. I'm old, but not quite old enough to be early in line; stout, but not quite heavy enough to be early in line; and so on.  In practical terms, the vaccine seems to be months away.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Larimar on January 20, 2021, 03:35:34 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 20, 2021, 01:21:39 PM
I have been waiting with resignation for all these many months, but now that the vaccine is on the horizon, I find myself really, really impatient. However, our state is way down on the list of states getting the vaccine out. Apparently we're not getting nearly as much delivered as was requested, and the vaccine that has been delivered is not being administered very efficiently. I presume someone has been vaccinated, but no one I know has.

And I am way down the list of eligible categories, even though I'm on the brink of several others. I'm old, but not quite old enough to be early in line; stout, but not quite heavy enough to be early in line; and so on.  In practical terms, the vaccine seems to be months away.

Same here, in that the vaccine doesn't seem to have materialized in my area, and I'm not quite in any of the categories that would get me any priority either. I have health issues that put me at risk, but are not considered serious enough to get me moved up the list. Each week month season that passes, it's been nope, Godot isn't here yet. Looks like I'll still be living like a hermit for a while.

I thought 2020 was supposed to have ended.

At least my truly elderly relatives have appointments to get vaccinated. They are in different states. I wonder if I should trust that the vaccine will be there when they show up for said appointments.


Larimar
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 21, 2021, 07:15:23 AM
Quote from: Larimar on January 20, 2021, 03:35:34 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on January 20, 2021, 01:21:39 PM
I have been waiting with resignation for all these many months, but now that the vaccine is on the horizon, I find myself really, really impatient. However, our state is way down on the list of states getting the vaccine out. Apparently we're not getting nearly as much delivered as was requested, and the vaccine that has been delivered is not being administered very efficiently. I presume someone has been vaccinated, but no one I know has.

And I am way down the list of eligible categories, even though I'm on the brink of several others. I'm old, but not quite old enough to be early in line; stout, but not quite heavy enough to be early in line; and so on.  In practical terms, the vaccine seems to be months away.

Same here, in that the vaccine doesn't seem to have materialized in my area, and I'm not quite in any of the categories that would get me any priority either. I have health issues that put me at risk, but are not considered serious enough to get me moved up the list. Each week month season that passes, it's been nope, Godot isn't here yet. Looks like I'll still be living like a hermit for a while.

I thought 2020 was supposed to have ended.

At least my truly elderly relatives have appointments to get vaccinated. They are in different states. I wonder if I should trust that the vaccine will be there when they show up for said appointments.


Larimar

Have you tried looking at your state's public health web site for location information on local vaccination sites?  Our state's site has a locator map with contact information for each pharmacy that currently has the vaccine.  It's available in at least one location in each county.  Of course there are now long waiting lists.

Just learned this morning that the Rotary Club's "vaccination party" for 10 eligible (i.e. elderly) Rotarians and spouses will be going ahead at today's meeting.  I'm just planning to Zoom in.

Our county's official total of known active cases has just gone down by two.  And the number of known deaths has gone up by the same number.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Larimar on January 21, 2021, 10:51:45 AM
Thanks. Just had a look. They had a list of currently eligible groups. Only K-12 teachers count as educators for them, and since I lost my classes I'm not even any kind of educator right now. I'm not in any other eligible category: over 75, medical or essential worker, etc. No word on when any other groups might become eligible.

Back to the hermit cave, trying not be too crabby.


Larimar
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 21, 2021, 12:07:16 PM
Our Rotary "vaccination party" went well.  The speaker at the meeting itself was the local pharmacist.  Very informative take from one of the people on the front lines of the vaccination campaign.  He says that they've already given 700 doses.  And that he has been working overtime to make sure that not a single supplied dose is wasted.  If a vaccination appointment falls through he will work to make sure it goes to somebody else on the list.

He also said that the underwhelming vaccination numbers so far have been in part due to a lag in reporting caused by a cumbersome reporting system.  The system apparently requires a good deal more demographic data than usual.  Pharmacists would rather spend their time giving shots than typing in data--but at the same time they worry that failing to report the data just so could cause their region to fall behind in vaccine allocations. 

He also addressed the widespread reluctance to be vaccinated, even by healthcare workers and nursing home staff.  He has found that persuasion works better than debate.  He points out that he's given this stuff to himself and the members of his family who work with him.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on January 25, 2021, 10:32:04 AM
Scientists out there and anyone else who knows:

Why can't the U.S. build new facilities that will manufacture massive amounts of at least the two approved vaccines?  Even if it takes some months to get the facilities built and operating, why not?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on January 25, 2021, 10:53:12 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on January 25, 2021, 10:32:04 AM
Scientists out there and anyone else who knows:

Why can't the U.S. build new facilities that will manufacture massive amounts of at least the two approved vaccines?  Even if it takes some months to get the facilities built and operating, why not?

I have wondered the same thing, except I am in Canada where supply is even worse. 

Here, we had a government facility that did manufacture a similar type of vaccine for animals but they claim they cant do so for humans.  I get that they need to be GMP compliant, so perhaps a retrofit was not possible.  However, the government invested 44 million to build out the capacity by Nov, but now they are saying mid 2021.  Building out capacity to manufacture vaccines should have been one of the top priorities, and I find these delays inexcusable.  Every country with capacity, should have been working on this to ensure the health and safety of their own population, but also to rapidly vaccinate countries without these resources.

Actually, these things should have been in place before the pandemic (at least a facility that would only need minor upgrades) along with an actual plan, but we were caught with our pants down in many ways. 

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on January 25, 2021, 11:41:40 AM
QuoteWhy can't the U.S. build new facilities

Is this a question about whether the Federal US Government should own and operate such a facility?
(the same people that are in charge of the IRS, the DMV, medicare?)
[Ok, I know that the Federal Gubment is not in charge of the DMV, but I could not think of an otherwise 'popular' government function]

Could private companies do it?
Hell yes, but Economics quickly comes up.  There are more and more vaccines on the horizon, so the price of the vaccine is going to go down as is the quantity demanded (hence the total revenue) for such a venture.  No firm wants to bankrupt itself for the good of society. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on January 25, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: clean on January 25, 2021, 11:41:40 AM
QuoteWhy can't the U.S. build new facilities

Is this a question about whether the Federal US Government should own and operate such a facility?
(the same people that are in charge of the IRS, the DMV, medicare?)
[Ok, I know that the Federal Gubment is not in charge of the DMV, but I could not think of an otherwise 'popular' government function]

Could private companies do it?
Hell yes, but Economics quickly comes up.  There are more and more vaccines on the horizon, so the price of the vaccine is going to go down as is the quantity demanded (hence the total revenue) for such a venture.  No firm wants to bankrupt itself for the good of society.

You trust them to run the military to keep you safe, but not to produce vaccines to keep you healthy?  There are some areas of national security and health where the government can and should have capacity, and I think this is one.  There are all sorts of research institutions that could use such a facility during non-pandemic times and then relatively easily switch over during emergencies, but this would take some planning. 

I think this is more true in smaller countries like Canada since we do not have the private manufacturing base for this and are now completely dependent on private, foreign, entities for something that is kind of important.  However, I do think the government should have a way to manufacture critically important items themselves or force private entities to do so during emergencies (which exists in the US I think). 

While I hate to agree with Trump, I do feel it is important to ensure your country has the manufacturing base to be self sufficient in emergencies or in the case of conflict.     

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 12:52:52 PM
About 70 million doses were shipped in 2020 and one billion are expected in 2021. Moreover, second generation vaccines are in the works.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-12-28/covid-19-vaccine-supply-chain-delay

Delays are less due to  limited production capacity, but rather limited government competence. The single worst offense was the time it took the regulators to approve the vaccine. Superior testing protocols [human challenge trials] were thought of, but not permitted.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 12:55:38 PM
It takes time, planning, zoning, money, and passing a bazillion inspections. Plus trained, knowledgeable production staff, supervisors, packaging and delivery teams.

One pharma out of the 5 I worked for as an EA had a production plant in-state, and it was 20 miles out of town. The other four were in different states, or overseas.

Many pharmas with US lab footprints are centered elsewhere. They'd have to get more clearances for international production from both their own countries, and ours, as well as patent-use clearances, which can take decades of litigation if there's a challenge.

It's not as simple as that.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on January 25, 2021, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 12:52:52 PM


Delays are less due to  limited production capacity, but rather limited government competence. The single worst offense was the time it took the regulators to approve the vaccine. Superior testing protocols [human challenge trials] were thought of, but not permitted.

I don't think that's particularly reasonable. Human challenge trials are often presented as this magical solution, but while they might be useful in some circumstances, they have various problems and wouldn't really be a substitute for a phase 3 trial. This article gives a good overview of some of the problems.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/23/challenge-trials-live-coronavirus-speedy-covid-19-vaccine/

Vaccines often don't work, they sometimes have side effects, sometimes they work differently in the real world than under controlled conditions. There's not really a way to figure that out without doing randomized trials on large groups of people and until you do figure it out you can't give lots of people a vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on January 25, 2021, 01:19:44 PM
Quote from: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 12:52:52 PM
About 70 million doses were shipped in 2020 and one billion are expected in 2021. Moreover, second generation vaccines are in the works.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-12-28/covid-19-vaccine-supply-chain-delay

Delays are less due to  limited production capacity, but rather limited government competence. The single worst offense was the time it took the regulators to approve the vaccine. Superior testing protocols [human challenge trials] were thought of, but not permitted.

Just the ethics of that scenario is utterly appalling. Who would volunteer? Why?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 01:20:17 PM
Quote from: Caracal on January 25, 2021, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 12:52:52 PM


Delays are less due to  limited production capacity, but rather limited government competence. The single worst offense was the time it took the regulators to approve the vaccine. Superior testing protocols [human challenge trials] were thought of, but not permitted.

I don't think that's particularly reasonable. Human challenge trials are often presented as this magical solution, but while they might be useful in some circumstances, they have various problems and wouldn't really be a substitute for a phase 3 trial. This article gives a good overview of some of the problems.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/23/challenge-trials-live-coronavirus-speedy-covid-19-vaccine/

Vaccines often don't work, they sometimes have side effects, sometimes they work differently in the real world than under controlled conditions. There's not really a way to figure that out without doing randomized trials on large groups of people and until you do figure it out you can't give lots of people a vaccine.

Trade offs wherever one looks.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on January 25, 2021, 01:45:39 PM
Quote from: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 12:52:52 PM
About 70 million doses were shipped in 2020 and one billion are expected in 2021. Moreover, second generation vaccines are in the works.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-12-28/covid-19-vaccine-supply-chain-delay

Delays are less due to  limited production capacity, but rather limited government competence. The single worst offense was the time it took the regulators to approve the vaccine. Superior testing protocols [human challenge trials] were thought of, but not permitted.

Well, they have been approved but we are in short supply (at least here) so it seems that production is at least part of the problem.  We had just established vaccination centers that have now shut down (temporarily) die to lack of supply.  Perhaps these issues are not so bad  in the US, or even Canada for that matter, but most of the world is waiting on the sidelines.

If one billion doses are expected this year, and it takes 2 doses per person, that still leaves about 7 billion people without access. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 01:58:08 PM
That's from two firms, and there are 11 more on the way. As I said, we wasted much of a year.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on January 25, 2021, 02:12:32 PM
My province has announced that they'll be vaccinating according to age, with the expectation that everyone will be done by the end of September.

It doesn't sound maximally efficient to me, but whatever, I guess we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 12:55:38 PM
It takes time, planning, zoning, money, and passing a bazillion inspections. Plus trained, knowledgeable production staff, supervisors, packaging and delivery teams.

One pharma out of the 5 I worked for as an EA had a production plant in-state, and it was 20 miles out of town. The other four were in different states, or overseas.

Many pharmas with US lab footprints are centered elsewhere. They'd have to get more clearances for international production from both their own countries, and ours, as well as patent-use clearances, which can take decades of litigation if there's a challenge.

It's not as simple as that.

M.

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.

I've never had flu (knock on wood) and I barely go out, and go heavily PPD'd when I do, so I'll probably wait and see for quite awhile....live viri are too close to inoculation, whose uses and results I've studied historically, for my taste.

M. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 02:41:41 PM
QuoteI was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

The vaccines available in the US [mRNA] do not contain live viruses. They don't even contain whole viruses.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2020/11/29/coronavirus-vaccines-difference/?sh=78d2f0f92ae6 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2020/11/29/coronavirus-vaccines-difference/?sh=78d2f0f92ae6)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 25, 2021, 03:02:50 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

He was probably absent the day vaccines were studied in Medical School.

No surprise there.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 25, 2021, 04:33:07 PM
Just not this ophthalmologist:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rand_Paul
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on January 26, 2021, 07:25:01 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.

My guy is from Israel. Are they using live virus COVID vaccines there?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on January 26, 2021, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 25, 2021, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: downer on January 25, 2021, 02:26:38 PM
I was talking to my opthamologist today who said he was getting the covid vaccine soon but was quite frightened to be taking a live vaccine that is untested for long term effects.

We have seen large proportions of health care workers turn down the opportunity to take the vaccine.

Have you had conversations with people with medical training who are reluctant to take the vaccine? What have they said?

Find a new ophthalmologist-- this one apparently flunked reading comprehension let alone vaccine science. None of the vaccines is a live vaccine.

Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 02:31:05 PM

For all the above reasons, plus I forgot to mention the need for independent clinical trials which can take 2-3 years minimum, a rushed process doesn't fill me with confidence, and I had a oddly strong reaction to a smallpox vaccination many years ago, so I usually avoid them.


Please reconsider-- the trials took less time because (a) the science has advanced dramatically, and (b) the rate of infection in the control group was so high it didn't take long to show efficacy (much slower when there are low endemic levels in a population). Fast does not equal bad-- the testing has been rigorous. Do your part to get us to herd immunity.

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Development of the vaccines was speeded up because there was a lot of preliminary work already done in recent years on similar viruses.  They didn't have to start developing a vaccine from square one.

It's also largely that mRNA based vaccines can be designed and produced very quickly.  Moderna's vaccine was already designed in January, 2020, before Covid was even classified as a pandemic and only 2 days after the covid sequence was released.  Phase one clinical trials started within a month of this, which is unprecedented.  The other beauty is that this type of vaccine can be quickly re-designed to address new variants that are not controlled with the initial sequence.  Science is awesome! 

 

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on January 26, 2021, 08:31:12 AM
Good explainer on how different vaccines work here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19-vaccines-work.html?action=click&state=default&region=hub&context=storyline_hub&module=styln-coronavirus-vaccines&variant=show&pgtype=LegacyCollection

Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Where are you seeing live coronavirus vaccines being used? There are some *inactivated* coronavirus vaccines being used in othe parts of the world, and some vaccines that use a modified chimp adenovirus (which is harmless and can't replicate) to carry a fragment of spike protein DNA into cells (e.g., the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine), but I haven't seen any using a live (attenuated) coronavirus.

Quote from: downer on January 26, 2021, 07:25:01 AM
My guy is from Israel. Are they using live virus COVID vaccines there?

No, pretty sure they are using the same ones as in the US. Your guy is just an idiot I'm afraid. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 10:18:54 AM
Quote from: Puget on January 26, 2021, 08:31:12 AM
Good explainer on how different vaccines work here: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/how-covid-19-vaccines-work.html?action=click&state=default&region=hub&context=storyline_hub&module=styln-coronavirus-vaccines&variant=show&pgtype=LegacyCollection

Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2021, 07:15:58 AM

I think part of the confusion is that there are live virus COVID vaccines in use--but NOT in the U.S. 

Where are you seeing live coronavirus vaccines being used? There are some *inactivated* coronavirus vaccines being used in othe parts of the world, and some vaccines that use a modified chimp adenovirus (which is harmless and can't replicate) to carry a fragment of spike protein DNA into cells (e.g., the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine), but I haven't seen any using a live (attenuated) coronavirus.

I don't remember the article off the top of my head.  I might have confused an attenuated-virus vaccine under development with an inactivated-virus vaccine actually in service somewhere.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on January 26, 2021, 01:49:32 PM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

At least?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on January 26, 2021, 01:53:40 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on January 26, 2021, 01:49:32 PM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

At least?

Below the median not below average, right?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on January 26, 2021, 03:38:21 PM
Would you prefer "at most"? It's the same thing. Especially if it's MDs who are calculating the statistic. Though at least half would probably fuck it up.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 26, 2021, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 03:38:21 PM
Would you prefer "at most"? It's the same thing. Especially if it's MDs who are calculating the statistic. Though at least half would probably fuck it up.

That's correct. Medical Schools are highly selective. They select for ambition [I wanna make a lot of money], work minimization [I wanna have all that money with as little work as possible], risk aversion [keep testing until even the tests get sick of it], ruthlessness [wreck your neighbors chem lab experiment in your pre-med program]. Let us all select the bottom holders of these qualities.

The source of the problem lies in the restriction of supply by the Council on Graduate Medical Education, consisting of representative of the AMA and existing medical schools, which keeps wages high. I call it "the Cartel". [The high wage doesn't exclusively reward long hours; it selects, including those who don't wish to put in the hours.]

Some years ago I overheard a conversation between two young men, one of whom stated he was going to Wall Street rather than become an MD on account the money was better! Thank god, I thought.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on January 26, 2021, 05:17:08 PM
Quote from: dismalist on January 26, 2021, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 03:38:21 PM
Would you prefer "at most"? It's the same thing. Especially if it's MDs who are calculating the statistic. Though at least half would probably fuck it up.

That's correct. Medical Schools are highly selective. They select for ambition [I wanna make a lot of money], work minimization [I wanna have all that money with as little work as possible], risk aversion [keep testing until even the tests get sick of it], ruthlessness [wreck your neighbors chem lab experiment in your pre-med program]. Let us all select the bottom holders of these qualities.

The source of the problem lies in the restriction of supply by the Council on Graduate Medical Education, consisting of representative of the AMA and existing medical schools, which keeps wages high. I call it "the Cartel". [The high wage doesn't exclusively reward long hours; it selects, including those who don't wish to put in the hours.]

Some years ago I overheard a conversation between two young men, one of whom stated he was going to Wall Street rather than become an MD on account the money was better! Thank god, I thought.

There are many easier, less tiring, less stressful and less gross ways to make money than being a doctor.

Yes, it would be nice if PAs, NPs and other skilled professionals were licensed to provide a lot of routine care that is done by MD's. Raging debate about whether the extra training MD's have is necessary for routine checkups and exams.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 27, 2021, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

Not at the University of Lake Wobegon School of Medicine.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on January 27, 2021, 08:34:38 AM
Mismanaged vaccination in Philadelphia (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/27/philly-fighting-covid-vaccine/)

Who thought this was a good idea?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 27, 2021, 10:22:53 AM
I've heard a rumor that city staff might get vaccinated early this coming month.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on January 27, 2021, 10:23:55 AM
Quote from: pgher on January 27, 2021, 08:34:38 AM
Mismanaged vaccination in Philadelphia (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/01/27/philly-fighting-covid-vaccine/)

Who thought this was a good idea?

"Speaking to "Today," Doroshin said that his lack of a traditional public health background allowed him to "think a little differently" and speed up the vaccination process. In another interview, he expressed hopes of setting up a McDonald's-like franchise and suggested that best practices for administering vaccines "can go out the window."

Yeah, these youngins know so much more than experts with decades of experience and knowledge.


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on January 29, 2021, 09:15:43 AM
Harking back to my military days, during basic training my platoon was marched to a medical station and vaccinated (inoculated?,got shots?) in rapid fashion by medics (techs?) using air gun type apparatus. I did not see much more of that in use. Was its use discontinued due to its being ineffective or unsafe? Has it reappeared elsewhere in use or in improved form?  While its application was sometimes not pretty, as a matter of fact bloody, it did seem to be a very good way to very rapidly administer doses of whatever to work groups in the field, prisoners, factory workers, crew members, etc.

As is treatment, prevention is worldwide concern. No telling what locations or circumstances would allow better, quicker, or cheaper ways of vaccination. Well, that's my two bits!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on January 29, 2021, 09:17:58 AM
The World Health Organization no longer recommends jet injectors for vaccination due to risks of disease transmission. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_injector)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on January 29, 2021, 10:27:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 27, 2021, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

Not at the University of Lake Wobegon School of Medicine.

What do you call the person who graduated last in their medical school class?

Doctor.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on January 29, 2021, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on January 29, 2021, 10:27:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 27, 2021, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

Not at the University of Lake Wobegon School of Medicine.

What do you call the person who graduated last in their medical school class?

Doctor.

Proctologist?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on January 29, 2021, 02:37:42 PM
Quote from: FishProf on January 29, 2021, 02:06:03 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on January 29, 2021, 10:27:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 27, 2021, 06:31:00 AM
Quote from: spork on January 26, 2021, 01:29:28 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on January 25, 2021, 02:56:00 PM
And it was an MD who made those remarks...

At least half of MDs were below average in medical school.

Not at the University of Lake Wobegon School of Medicine.

What do you call the person who graduated last in their medical school class?

Doctor.

Proctologist?

How do you hide $100 from a proctologist?

Tape it to your forehead.

How do you hide $100 from .......

Surgeon - tape it to a stethoscope

Orthopedist -- put it in a textbook

Neurosurgeon - tape it to his kids

Plastic surgeon -- can't be done.

Family medicine -- what's $100

Internist - put it under a dressing

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on January 30, 2021, 07:48:53 AM
University of Arkansas has classified most of its employees as "essential."  They've vaccinated 5,600 employees so far.  Only 24,000 to go!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on January 31, 2021, 10:58:37 AM
University was supposed to get vaccine, but state decided to prioritize vaccine hubs so is now urging employees who are in priority groups to go to hubs instead of waiting. Every hub has its own process for signup, some with waitlists and some not. One colleague received first dose last week, two counties south of UniversityTown. I have appointment for tomorrow, one county to the north. I know people who are on every waitlist within 150 miles. Many people are also checking hubs that don't have wait lists, looking for announcements that they're opening appointment signups. I have a colleague on multiple waitlists who is also showing up at hubs near end of day, hoping they'll have leftover doses because of no-shows.

I'm encouraging vaccination, but also reminding department that masks are required even if vaccinated. Mask up until we get enough people vaccinated. The news of new strains may help there, as people who have be conscientious about masking are listening for news about how effective vaccines are against new strains.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on January 31, 2021, 02:04:14 PM
My MIL (late 70s) got her first dose this morning.  Hoping my parents (early 70s) will be able to get theirs soon.  I don't expect to reach the front of the line for months.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
I have contacted a company that is doing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial to see if I can enroll. It seems to be the quickest possible way to get vaccinated in my state. People 75 years of age and older *might* start getting vaccinated in maybe a few weeks. But who knows if that will happen.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on February 01, 2021, 04:19:57 AM
Of course being in a trial means you might get the placebo.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on February 01, 2021, 05:12:23 AM
Quote from: namazu on January 31, 2021, 02:04:14 PM
My MIL (late 70s) got her first dose this morning.  Hoping my parents (early 70s) will be able to get theirs soon.  I don't expect to reach the front of the line for months.

My MIL (late 60s) got hers last week, and my FIL has an appointment for his this month. My parents have not been able to get an appointment, because sign-up slots disappear too fast, but my uncle has a system with multiple monitors & refreshes and so on, and so my parents gave him their information and he's going to try to get them a slot next time sign-ups open this week. Apparently he's gotten appointments for himself, my aunt, and some of their friends, so he seems to have a record of success.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on February 01, 2021, 07:13:09 AM
Quote from: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
I have contacted a company that is doing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial to see if I can enroll. It seems to be the quickest possible way to get vaccinated in my state. People 75 years of age and older *might* start getting vaccinated in maybe a few weeks. But who knows if that will happen.

Various things have been less than ideal with vaccine rollout, but despite all that almost 8 percent of the population of the US has already gotten at least one shot. I don't think any state is below 5 percent. With actual federal coordination, I wouldn't despair yet.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 01, 2021, 08:05:44 AM
Quote from: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
I have contacted a company that is doing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial to see if I can enroll. It seems to be the quickest possible way to get vaccinated in my state. People 75 years of age and older *might* start getting vaccinated in maybe a few weeks. But who knows if that will happen.

My goodness that's slow!  The older people are getting it here, but the limited supply makes for long waiting lists.

I'm making preparations to try to persuade reluctant staff members to get vaccinated when city employees get the chance.  Still no date set.  I just want to be ready to nudge everybody through the window of opportunity when it opens.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on February 01, 2021, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 01, 2021, 07:13:09 AM
Various things have been less than ideal with vaccine rollout, but despite all that almost 8 percent of the population of the US has already gotten at least one shot. I don't think any state is below 5 percent. With actual federal coordination, I wouldn't despair yet.

Thanks for sharing these statistics and optimism, much-needed.

I need to remember that, despite my frustration and anxiety about senior-age, high-risk loved ones still lacking access and other things, we're fortunate to have several approved or soon-to-be-approved vaccines at the start of February.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pink_ on February 01, 2021, 10:46:54 AM
I've tried to enroll in two trials, and I've also tried signing up to volunteer at one of the clinics in the next town over. Word on the street is that volunteers can get vaccinated if supplies are available and at least one person I know got their first shot this way.

But my parents, who are both 80, have to yet been able to get appointments in their state. I think I am more worked up about this than they are.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on February 01, 2021, 01:21:41 PM
Anyone here work anywhere that will restrict unvaccinated persons from continuing to work once vax availability occurs, and they refuse to get it, or at least limit where and what and when such people could do?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on February 01, 2021, 04:59:09 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/01/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-flatearth/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/01/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-flatearth/)

Who knew there were anti vaxxer PHARMACISTS whose vaccine opinions are far from their craziest beliefs?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on February 02, 2021, 03:44:41 AM
NEW WORD?  VACCINOTOURISM!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: bacardiandlime on February 02, 2021, 05:27:23 AM
Quote from: pgher on February 01, 2021, 04:59:09 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/01/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-flatearth/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/01/wisconsin-pharmacist-vaccine-flatearth/)

Who knew there were anti vaxxer PHARMACISTS whose vaccine opinions are far from their craziest beliefs?

Probably the same pharmacists who refuse to dispense plan B
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 02, 2021, 06:06:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 01, 2021, 08:05:44 AM
Quote from: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
I have contacted a company that is doing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial to see if I can enroll. It seems to be the quickest possible way to get vaccinated in my state. People 75 years of age and older *might* start getting vaccinated in maybe a few weeks. But who knows if that will happen.

My goodness that's slow!  The older people are getting it here, but the limited supply makes for long waiting lists.

I'm making preparations to try to persuade reluctant staff members to get vaccinated when city employees get the chance.  Still no date set.  I just want to be ready to nudge everybody through the window of opportunity when it opens.

Obviously you are not employed at Hillsdale College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/02/hillsdale-faculty-staff-jumped-head-vaccine-line (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/02/hillsdale-faculty-staff-jumped-head-vaccine-line).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on February 02, 2021, 11:02:36 AM
Quote from: spork on February 02, 2021, 06:06:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 01, 2021, 08:05:44 AM
Quote from: spork on January 31, 2021, 04:51:24 PM
I have contacted a company that is doing a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine trial to see if I can enroll. It seems to be the quickest possible way to get vaccinated in my state. People 75 years of age and older *might* start getting vaccinated in maybe a few weeks. But who knows if that will happen.

My goodness that's slow!  The older people are getting it here, but the limited supply makes for long waiting lists.

I'm making preparations to try to persuade reluctant staff members to get vaccinated when city employees get the chance.  Still no date set.  I just want to be ready to nudge everybody through the window of opportunity when it opens.

Obviously you are not employed at Hillsdale College:

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/02/hillsdale-faculty-staff-jumped-head-vaccine-line (https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/02/02/hillsdale-faculty-staff-jumped-head-vaccine-line).

While its tempting to be angry about people jumping in line, it is usually wrongheaded and counterproductive. The worst case scenario is not that some people who weren't prioritized get the vaccine. The worst case scenario is nobody gets the vaccine and it expires. If you're a small hospital and you have several hundred doses to get rid of within a couple of days, you may not have the resources to do anything but just send some emails to institutions nearby inviting employees to come get doses. Hopefully, they offered it to local K-12 educators and childcare workers too.

The last thing you want is these sorts of stories to make vaccine providers afraid of getting backlash for giving out leftover doses.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 02, 2021, 12:14:07 PM
I'm guessing you're not familiar with Hillsdale.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on February 02, 2021, 01:01:21 PM
Quote from: spork on February 02, 2021, 12:14:07 PM
I'm guessing you're not familiar with Hillsdale.

Sound like an unpleasant institution, but I'd still sooner their faculty get the vaccine than it goes to waste.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on February 02, 2021, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Caracal on February 02, 2021, 11:02:36 AM

While its tempting to be angry about people jumping in line, it is usually wrongheaded and counterproductive. The worst case scenario is not that some people who weren't prioritized get the vaccine. The worst case scenario is nobody gets the vaccine and it expires. If you're a small hospital and you have several hundred doses to get rid of within a couple of days, you may not have the resources to do anything but just send some emails to institutions nearby inviting employees to come get doses. Hopefully, they offered it to local K-12 educators and childcare workers too.

The last thing you want is these sorts of stories to make vaccine providers afraid of getting backlash for giving out leftover doses.

Precisely! No one is made worse off.

And this should further not be considered queue jumping because if you are protected by the vaccine, I am protected a little by your vaccination.

Amazing how markets emerge spontaneously even  without money!

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on February 04, 2021, 04:42:19 AM
My parents have their vaccination appointments scheduled for this week. I'm simultaneously thrilled and outraged at how hard it was for them. My mother is perfectly internet-savvy, but she was unable to get an appointment whenever they opened up, and in the end had to give her information to her brother-in-law, because he had a really good system with multiple monitors etc. to make sure he could nab a slot before they were all gone. It shouldn't be this hard. You shouldn't have to outsource your sign-up process to someone with elaborate home office technical equipment to get an appointment.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Harlow2 on February 04, 2021, 06:39:32 AM
Quote from: ergative on February 04, 2021, 04:42:19 AM
My parents have their vaccination appointments scheduled for this week. I'm simultaneously thrilled and outraged at how hard it was for them. My mother is perfectly internet-savvy, but she was unable to get an appointment whenever they opened up, and in the end had to give her information to her brother-in-law, because he had a really good system with multiple monitors etc. to make sure he could nab a slot before they were all gone. It shouldn't be this hard. You shouldn't have to outsource your sign-up process to someone with elaborate home office technical equipment to get an appointment.

I finally was able to guess the 5-minute period when appointments would be loaded in one site and had all info ready to copy and paste. Even then it took attempts on 2 separate days.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on February 04, 2021, 10:58:35 AM
It is really easy in Indiana. Signed up Monday. Couldn't get in until March in my county, but got into an adjacent county no problem. Drove 30 miles there this morning, in and out in half an hour.

Best wishes and hopes for everyone where it is tougher sledding!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: OneMoreYear on February 04, 2021, 11:32:23 AM
My parents got appointments for their first vaccination this week. I'm very relieved, as my mother has serious health conditions and COVID would be definitively life-threatening.  They are doing serious social distancing.
One brother-in-law (a physician) got his pretty early. The surprise was that my other brother-in-law was apparently at the head of the line in his state and has already had his first dose b/c he's on a ski patrol.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on February 04, 2021, 02:46:25 PM
I got my 2nd dose today.  I'm planning on taking tomorrow as a day off to suffer the effects and will be happy to do so.

Now, I just gotta get Mrs. Artem into this byzantine system somehow.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 04, 2021, 04:34:30 PM
My parents got their first dose today. I was surprised considering how uncoordinated our state is.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 06:08:28 PM
secundem_artem, do you mind my asking what effects of the vax are motivating you to take a day off tomorrow?   Of course, almost any reasonable side effects would be irrelevant and not at all a reason not to vax....

BTW, why do you use 'secundem' artem, not 'secundam artem'?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on February 04, 2021, 06:21:28 PM
secundum?

I don't know Latin, but I can wing it! :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 06:55:31 PM
'ars,-tis', is a feminine noun, requiring 'secundAm' with this 1/2 decl adj.   I have long wondered why secundem uses this word, which IMO is bad Latin.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on February 04, 2021, 07:36:26 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 06:55:31 PM
'ars,-tis', is a feminine noun, requiring 'secundAm' with this 1/2 decl adj.   I have long wondered why secundem uses this word, which IMO is bad Latin.

Wayne & Shuster were a couple of Canadian comedians back in the day.  They used to have a joke about ancient Rome.

A centurion walks into a bar and tells the barkeep "I'd like a martinus."

Barman says, "Don't you mean a martini?"

Replies the centurion, "No.  I mean a martinus.  What's the matter with you?   Can't you speak plain Latin?"

As to the moniker --  It's a term from my professional training meaning "according to the art".  I just forgot how to spell it when I chose it as a screen name.  Mrs. Hayes (my high school Latin teacher) would be appalled.  Apologies to all.

As to the day off.  My conversations with those in the know tell me that about 2/3 of those who get the 2nd dose have a pretty rough day the day after.  Fever, swelling, myalgias etc.  I'm just anticipating a rough day - which is good news since that means I have had a vigorous immune response.

Any other questions??
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on February 04, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?

I haven't had any side effects from first shot, but from what I'm reading the second shot is more likely to have side effects. Like secundem_artem, I've scheduled a very light workload for day after second shot, just in case.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on February 04, 2021, 10:25:16 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on February 04, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?

I haven't had any side effects from first shot, but from what I'm reading the second shot is more likely to have side effects. Like secundem_artem, I've scheduled a very light workload for day after second shot, just in case.

My wife, the doctor, already had her second shot some time ago. Neither shot caused anything beyond soreness of the arm for two or three days.

People, take heart! Or better, do your cost-benefit analysis!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on February 05, 2021, 04:47:13 AM
Quote from: dismalist on February 04, 2021, 10:25:16 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on February 04, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?

I haven't had any side effects from first shot, but from what I'm reading the second shot is more likely to have side effects. Like secundem_artem, I've scheduled a very light workload for day after second shot, just in case.

My wife, the doctor, already had her second shot some time ago. Neither shot caused anything beyond soreness of the arm for two or three days.

People, take heart! Or better, do your cost-benefit analysis!

Yeah, one parent had nothing from second shot. Other had a fever and felt like crap for a day, but it went away quickly. Better than getting Covid either way.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on February 05, 2021, 05:15:22 AM
According to the video posted by NYS, the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) do not affect your own genetic material or DNA in any way, do not contain the actual COVID-19 virus, and cannot give you COVID.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lssxP974YXg&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=GovernorAndrewM.Cuomo

In case you're wondering, the video is about the vaccine--the gov doesn't make an appearance.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on February 05, 2021, 12:30:50 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on February 04, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?

I haven't had any side effects from first shot, but from what I'm reading the second shot is more likely to have side effects. Like secundem_artem, I've scheduled a very light workload for day after second shot, just in case.

I had zero adverse effects from the first shot.  As to the 2nd one, by evening, my arm started to hurt.  Overnight, I threw a fever of 101 and had some moderate aches and pains.  By noon, most of the discomfort had passed and I was able to attend a scheduled Zoom meeting.  Orange juice and ibuprofen were adequate to control fevers and pain.

As always,  YMMV.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on February 05, 2021, 05:58:42 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 05, 2021, 12:30:50 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on February 04, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 04, 2021, 08:25:25 PM
How many side effects did you experience the day after your first shot?

I haven't had any side effects from first shot, but from what I'm reading the second shot is more likely to have side effects. Like secundem_artem, I've scheduled a very light workload for day after second shot, just in case.

I had zero adverse effects from the first shot.  As to the 2nd one, by evening, my arm started to hurt.  Overnight, I threw a fever of 101 and had some moderate aches and pains.  By noon, most of the discomfort had passed and I was able to attend a scheduled Zoom meeting.  Orange juice and ibuprofen were adequate to control fevers and pain.

As always,  YMMV.

Congratulations on getting your second dose and on minimal side effects!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 08, 2021, 07:21:52 AM
My parents are now finally scheduled to be vaccinated within the next week.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: RatGuy on February 08, 2021, 07:55:30 AM
Received my first dose of Moderna on Sunday. It was administered through the university. I was told that they are prioritizing instructors currently teaching F2F courses, and that the state had recently switched university instructors into an earlier category (K12 teachers were already in this category). My paperwork had a "college instructor" checkbox written in pen, reflecting that recent change.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 08, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
My city registered people for the 1000 doses available tomorrow in 10 minutes! 
I got in to register just inside the 10 minutes, but it took over 5 minutes to fill in the forms!  So some must be either faster than I or have forms that fill the info a lot faster!

Oh well.... maybe another time!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 08, 2021, 12:51:25 PM
Quote from: clean on February 08, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
My city registered people for the 1000 doses available tomorrow in 10 minutes! 
I got in to register just inside the 10 minutes, but it took over 5 minutes to fill in the forms!  So some must be either faster than I or have forms that fill the info a lot faster!

Oh well.... maybe another time!

Reminds me of the time I tried signing up for a back country backpacking permit at the Grand Canyon.  I tried within two or three days of the opening of the registration window, and it was already too late for the season.  Oh well, I ended up enjoying my trip to Mesa Verde instead.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on February 08, 2021, 01:12:22 PM
Quote from: clean on February 08, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
My city registered people for the 1000 doses available tomorrow in 10 minutes! 
I got in to register just inside the 10 minutes, but it took over 5 minutes to fill in the forms!  So some must be either faster than I or have forms that fill the info a lot faster!

Oh well.... maybe another time!

I twice timed the nurse at CVS giving me the flu shot. Each time she took two minutes to prepare and administer the dose and nine minutes to fill out the paperwork. And these are things she does repeatedly, so she must be pretty fast.

I've registered for a Corona vaccine. They'll call me -- whenever.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Harlow2 on February 08, 2021, 07:50:45 PM
Quote from: clean on February 08, 2021, 10:13:48 AM
My city registered people for the 1000 doses available tomorrow in 10 minutes! 
I got in to register just inside the 10 minutes, but it took over 5 minutes to fill in the forms!  So some must be either faster than I or have forms that fill the info a lot faster!

Oh well.... maybe another time!

I put every bit of info including emergency phone numbers, insurance numbers and so 9n, in a Word doc so I could quickly copy and paste into the form on the website. I was able to fill out the form in under a minute. Ymmv, of course depending on the form
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 09, 2021, 11:37:37 AM
I GOT THE SHOT TODAY!!

As I wrote, my submission indicated that they there was a problem and asked me to resubmit.  After resubmitting, I got an error message, so I was pretty sure I was not registered.  I was supposed to get a "QR Code" in response to my final submission.  As I got the error code, I got NO QR Code.  However, last night, I got a text message that I was scheduled for todays vaccine drive!  All I had to do was write the password in big letters on a paper so that they would let me into the arena area, and bring my QR CODE !!!!   BASTARDS!!!! 

This morning I called the health department to see IF I was really in (see below for more drama).  After 20 minutes on hold, I was told I was on the list and the lady told me what to write in big letters on another paper to substitute for the QR Code. 

So I got there early (with my bride, who got her shot almost a month ago).  Fortunately, I didnt listen to my bride's directions so I did not get lost!  I thought she knew where we were going as she was there under a month ago!  After getting lined up (lots of cars in a row, 5 rows wide), someone came up and asked how many were getting vaccinated and got my substitute QR information.  We were instructed to turn on the emergency flashers to note we were registered.  After 20 minutes or so in line, someone came back and confirmed that I was the sole person getting vaccinated, but it looked like they were willing to vaccinate my bride IF she didnt have a shot already (contrary to the instructions I was sent).  So it looks like there were some extra doses available today!

We waited 30 minutes, maybe forty.  Once the line started moving toward the vaccination line, I was the second car in that line. (They were lining cars up at least 3 rows wide.   There were 4 people in the car in front of me, but there were several vaccinators for each line, so as soon as the car was in park, someone appeared at the window and in less than a minute I was injected and waiting on the car in front of me to move to the 15 minute wait area! 

We parked and waited to be released, but because it was foggy when we left the house, I turned on my lights.  It wasnt foggy when we got there, but the lights stayed on.  The lights were on during the 30-40 minute wait, but the car started and ran another 5 minutes tops to get in line for the vaccination, and then we were in line less than 20 minutes waiting to be released.  SO when it was time to leave, my car would not start!!!

I got their attention, told them the problem, they called on the walkie talkies and started getting the cars around me.  Before the end of the line had passed me by a helper came with a battery, told me to stay in the car, opened the hood, hooked up the battery and got me started and on the way! 

So they were VERY organized.  IF we had plenty of doses, I could see them doing several thousand shots a day.  (3000 were scheduled for today)  IF we had the doses, I could easily see 10,000 shots a day if they stayed open 8 to 8 or so. 


Last week's Drama:
Last week the city did an experiment on a downtown site. They wanted to do 500 doses.  Registration opened and 2000 were over-scheduled!!  They did 1000 of those last Friday by carving out some of last week's allocation and another 1000 were with me there today. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on February 09, 2021, 06:21:58 PM
Got my second shot about two hours ago. So far I'm feeling fine, but last time I had some soreness in my arm for a few days, so expecting that might happen again. Either way, I'm glad to be vaccinated. Unfortunately, my wife is not, so doesn't change much in my day to day life, but at least I'm unlikely to catch the virus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on February 09, 2021, 06:31:46 PM
I might be able to get a shot next month. I can get ahead of others in line because of asthma. No one has it has tough as me, you know.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on February 09, 2021, 07:51:08 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on February 09, 2021, 06:21:58 PM
Got my second shot about two hours ago. So far I'm feeling fine, but last time I had some soreness in my arm for a few days, so expecting that might happen again. Either way, I'm glad to be vaccinated. Unfortunately, my wife is not, so doesn't change much in my day to day life, but at least I'm unlikely to catch the virus.

I'm in the opposite position. My wife gets her second shot this weekend, but I probably won't get vaccinated for months yet. Still, I'm glad she'll be protected. She has some health conditions that would make it particularly bad for her.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 11, 2021, 10:44:36 AM
Spouse and I got our first shot today. I'm feeling very grateful and hopeful!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on February 11, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
Something occurred to me today. K-12 teachers in my state are in the next tier to be vaccinated, but college faculty are in the tier after that. Given how big each tier is, and how slow everything is going, I suppose it's possible I won't be on the list until May. What's the point in vaccinating a college professor in May?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on February 11, 2021, 03:35:42 PM
Quote from: pgher on February 11, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
Something occurred to me today. K-12 teachers in my state are in the next tier to be vaccinated, but college faculty are in the tier after that. Given how big each tier is, and how slow everything is going, I suppose it's possible I won't be on the list until May. What's the point in vaccinating a college professor in May?

So you can travel to exotic places in the summer.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 11, 2021, 03:57:04 PM
Quote from: pgher on February 11, 2021, 03:09:47 PM
Something occurred to me today. K-12 teachers in my state are in the next tier to be vaccinated, but college faculty are in the tier after that. Given how big each tier is, and how slow everything is going, I suppose it's possible I won't be on the list until May. What's the point in vaccinating a college professor in May?

Does your college not have summer classes?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 11, 2021, 04:13:46 PM
Quotewhat's the point in vaccinating a college professor in May?

So that they can get both doses and build up immunity by the start of Fall! 

AS most universities seem to NEED students on campus to pay the bills for the parking lots, dorms, food service, health center....   administration is looking to minimize the use of online classes.  Vaccinating faculty (and staff) are sure ways to make sure that the other bills are paid.  Vaccinated faculty dont have as much to complain about if required to return to face to face classes!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 07:42:37 AM
The local Wal-Mart is supposed to start offering the vaccine today.  This will give us two vaccination locations in town.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 01:28:21 PM
And Wal-Mart is now suggesting that people who need help signing up for their vaccinations come to us for it.  Which we're glad to do.  We've already had to walk one through the process today.    Seems to be a pretty ordinary online form.  Those things can be awfully confusing to people who aren't used to using them, though.

So we're now helping people to get vaccinated, but can't get it ourselves.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 14, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
My parents both got their first shots yesterday.  No reaction beyond some arm soreness.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 04:45:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
My parents both got their first shots yesterday.  No reaction beyond some arm soreness.

Good news! I've heard those who are older tend to have fewer symptoms from the vaccine. More experienced immune system maybe?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 15, 2021, 04:59:25 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 04:45:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
My parents both got their first shots yesterday.  No reaction beyond some arm soreness.

Good news! I've heard those who are older tend to have fewer symptoms from the vaccine. More experienced immune system maybe?

Weaker immune system. Ability to generate an immune response decreases with age.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: sinenomine on February 15, 2021, 05:41:33 AM
My sister, 68, got walloped with symptoms after the second shot, while her husband, 81, had none whatsoever.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 15, 2021, 06:05:42 AM
Concerned that the snow is going to slow vaccinations in affected areas.  It's really going to be a problem for people who are scheduled for their second doses.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 06:27:42 AM
Quote from: spork on February 15, 2021, 04:59:25 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 04:45:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 14, 2021, 08:33:35 AM
My parents both got their first shots yesterday.  No reaction beyond some arm soreness.

Good news! I've heard those who are older tend to have fewer symptoms from the vaccine. More experienced immune system maybe?

Weaker immune system. Ability to generate an immune response decreases with age.

Ah, interesting. Thanks! I was just a little off base. 😉
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2021, 06:05:42 AM
Concerned that the snow is going to slow vaccinations in affected areas.  It's really going to be a problem for people who are scheduled for their second doses.

Scheduled vaccinations around here are canceled for a minimum two days. I'm not sure how they are going to handle rescheduling.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: paultuttle on February 15, 2021, 10:46:24 AM
My parents are getting their second vaccinations Wednesday.

I'm hopeful that this will protect them from the variants running wild through the United States. We've been VERY careful--masks/gloves/face shields in their house when bringing them their biweekly groceries, wiping down their groceries with Clorox wipes prior to bringing them in the house (sole exception: fresh produce), and so forth.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on February 19, 2021, 10:24:24 AM
At this point, Canada has purchased 402 million vaccine doses, for a population of ~37 million.

So far, 1.8 million doses have been delivered.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on February 19, 2021, 06:06:47 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 15, 2021, 06:29:06 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 15, 2021, 06:05:42 AM
Concerned that the snow is going to slow vaccinations in affected areas.  It's really going to be a problem for people who are scheduled for their second doses.

Scheduled vaccinations around here are canceled for a minimum two days. I'm not sure how they are going to handle rescheduling.

My county moved the 2nd doses scheduled for Monday and Tuesday of this week to Thursday of next week. My 2nd dose is still scheduled for Monday the 22nd. Crossing my fingers, because county has done a pretty good job so far.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 20, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I find it ironic that if I was obese and a cigarette smoker, I'd now be eligible for vaccination in some states. But since I make an effort to keep myself as healthy as possible given that I have a chronic immunological disorder, I'm not eligible.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I find it ironic that if I was obese and a cigarette smoker, I'd now be eligible for vaccination in some states. But since I make an effort to keep myself as healthy as possible given that I have a chronic immunological disorder, I'm not eligible.

Wouldn't a chronic immunological disorder be considered a risk factor that put a person in a higher vaccination classification?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 20, 2021, 09:35:58 AM
Check with your physician.  Mine wrote a prescription to use.

Phase 1B: People 65+ or people 16+ with a health condition that increases risk of severe COVID‑19 illness, including but not limited to:

Cancer
Chronic kidney disease
COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease)
Down Syndrome
Heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies
Organ transplantation
Obesity
Pregnancy
Sickle cell disease
Type 2 diabetes
If you have a medical condition not listed above, you may still qualify for the vaccine. Talk to your provider to confirm.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 20, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I find it ironic that if I was obese and a cigarette smoker, I'd now be eligible for vaccination in some states. But since I make an effort to keep myself as healthy as possible given that I have a chronic immunological disorder, I'm not eligible.

Wouldn't a chronic immunological disorder be considered a risk factor that put a person in a higher vaccination classification?

Depends on the disorder. Mine isn't on the list.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I find it ironic that if I was obese and a cigarette smoker, I'd now be eligible for vaccination in some states. But since I make an effort to keep myself as healthy as possible given that I have a chronic immunological disorder, I'm not eligible.

Wouldn't a chronic immunological disorder be considered a risk factor that put a person in a higher vaccination classification?

Depends on the disorder. Mine isn't on the list.

Depends on your state. Cigarette smokers get priority in NJ, but not in NY. Each state seems to be making its own arbitrary set of guidelines.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 20, 2021, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:57:47 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 10:42:42 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 20, 2021, 08:33:45 AM
Quote from: spork on February 20, 2021, 07:51:43 AM
I find it ironic that if I was obese and a cigarette smoker, I'd now be eligible for vaccination in some states. But since I make an effort to keep myself as healthy as possible given that I have a chronic immunological disorder, I'm not eligible.

Wouldn't a chronic immunological disorder be considered a risk factor that put a person in a higher vaccination classification?

Depends on the disorder. Mine isn't on the list.

Depends on your state. Cigarette smokers get priority in NJ, but not in NY. Each state seems to be making its own arbitrary set of guidelines.

Yes. Arbitrary is the correct word.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on February 21, 2021, 06:11:38 PM
I suppose one might argue that a smoker, who chooses his bad health habits, ought not to be rewarded for that by going to the head of the vax queue.   I am not sure of the morality of such an argument, but, like it or not, at the present time, we do not have enough vax available for all who would want it, so some decisions as to prioritization must be made.   It is a black swan event.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on February 21, 2021, 06:35:18 PM
QuoteArbitrary is the correct word.

Yes and no.

Whats the proper objective function?

-save the maximum number of lives;
-save the maximum number of remaining years of life;
-save my life;
-save the maximum number of voters' lives. :-)

Politicians decide for us, as they have to, for that is what they were elected for. But we can stand back and evaluate.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hesitant on February 22, 2021, 08:27:33 PM
All of this brings me to my own dilemma: should I get vaccinated? I qualify in my state because I am obese (BMI: 33.4) and a former smoker, both of which are listed as co-morbidities by the CDC that  put me at higher risk for COVID complications. And yes, I do realize these are both result of life style choices. I wouldn't just get a vaccine  because I can, but here is why I am even contemplating it.

I am  an immigrant (no family in the US), 48 year old,  with a 7 year old daughter, who attends school in person twice a week. My husband, who is 56, is also a  former smoker (a very heavy one at that; 2 packs a day for 30 years...). Had it been just us, with no child in school, I would not even contemplate a vaccination at this point: we work from home and can socially distance. My neighbors who work in supermarkets, hospitals and schools need the shot more than I do. However, just the thought of my daughter bringing COVID to one or both of us and one of us -- or, the unthinkable, both of us --  dying, horrifies me. (Keeping her home is not an option for her; she developed some serious mental health issues in the spring, as 6 year old who lived in isolation for 6 months before her school partially reopened last fall).

I know  that I am not the only one in this position, but what would you do if you were me -- obese former middle aged smoker with a young child? If your state allowed it, would you get the vaccine now or wait for it to be available to everyone first? I really do not know (and my intense anxiety around health/death and leaving a young child behind is not helping me make the right decision...)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on February 23, 2021, 02:58:40 AM
hesitant, if you're eligible get the vaccine! Your thoughts for grocery store workers are admirable, but you have a higher responsibility not to leave your child an orphan.

If it assuages your guilt, you can offer to go on grocery runs or other errands for your neighbors to minimize their risk going out unvaccinated--indeed, that would not only protect your neighbors, but also protect the people that they might come in contact with if they go grocery shopping while not realizing they're contagious.

The worse-case scenario is not you getting the vaccine instead of a more 'deserving' neighbor. It is you not getting a vaccine and that dose then expiring because your state doesn't consider your neighbors eligible yet. This stranger on the internet gives you the A+ thumbs up to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on February 23, 2021, 04:03:38 AM
Quote from: hesitant on February 22, 2021, 08:27:33 PM
All of this brings me to my own dilemma: should I get vaccinated? I qualify in my state because I am obese (BMI: 33.4) and a former smoker, both of which are listed as co-morbidities by the CDC that  put me at higher risk for COVID complications. And yes, I do realize these are both result of life style choices. I wouldn't just get a vaccine  because I can, but here is why I am even contemplating it.

I am  an immigrant (no family in the US), 48 year old,  with a 7 year old daughter, who attends school in person twice a week. My husband, who is 56, is also a  former smoker (a very heavy one at that; 2 packs a day for 30 years...). Had it been just us, with no child in school, I would not even contemplate a vaccination at this point: we work from home and can socially distance. My neighbors who work in supermarkets, hospitals and schools need the shot more than I do. However, just the thought of my daughter bringing COVID to one or both of us and one of us -- or, the unthinkable, both of us --  dying, horrifies me. (Keeping her home is not an option for her; she developed some serious mental health issues in the spring, as 6 year old who lived in isolation for 6 months before her school partially reopened last fall).

I know  that I am not the only one in this position, but what would you do if you were me -- obese former middle aged smoker with a young child? If your state allowed it, would you get the vaccine now or wait for it to be available to everyone first? I really do not know (and my intense anxiety around health/death and leaving a young child behind is not helping me make the right decision...)

Get vaccinated. You fall into multiple co-morbidity risk categories. Minimize the chance that your child becomes an orphan.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on February 23, 2021, 04:48:17 AM
Quote from: hesitant on February 22, 2021, 08:27:33 PM
All of this brings me to my own dilemma: should I get vaccinated? I qualify in my state because I am obese (BMI: 33.4) and a former smoker, both of which are listed as co-morbidities by the CDC that  put me at higher risk for COVID complications. And yes, I do realize these are both result of life style choices. I wouldn't just get a vaccine  because I can, but here is why I am even contemplating it.

I am  an immigrant (no family in the US), 48 year old,  with a 7 year old daughter, who attends school in person twice a week. My husband, who is 56, is also a  former smoker (a very heavy one at that; 2 packs a day for 30 years...). Had it been just us, with no child in school, I would not even contemplate a vaccination at this point: we work from home and can socially distance. My neighbors who work in supermarkets, hospitals and schools need the shot more than I do. However, just the thought of my daughter bringing COVID to one or both of us and one of us -- or, the unthinkable, both of us --  dying, horrifies me. (Keeping her home is not an option for her; she developed some serious mental health issues in the spring, as 6 year old who lived in isolation for 6 months before her school partially reopened last fall).

I know  that I am not the only one in this position, but what would you do if you were me -- obese former middle aged smoker with a young child? If your state allowed it, would you get the vaccine now or wait for it to be available to everyone first? I really do not know (and my intense anxiety around health/death and leaving a young child behind is not helping me make the right decision...)

I think it's wonderful that you are being so thoughtful and selfless, but your daughter needs you and the people making the decisions on who gets the vaccine think that you need it too. My vote is to get the vaccine and don't feel guilty. You are doing it for your daughter and that's what a good mother does.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on February 23, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
If you qualify for a vaccine, you qualify.  Full stop.  You are not "taking" an opportunity from somebody who "needs it more". 

In other news, Mrs. Artem got her first shot yesterday.  Former smoker, mild to moderate COPD and meets the age requirement.  No lines got jumped.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on February 23, 2021, 07:12:41 AM
Agree with the above. The more people who get vaccinated the better, so you are helping the wider cause by getting yourself vaccinated, and protecting yourself and your family.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hesitant on February 23, 2021, 09:07:13 AM
Hi All,
Thank you all for your thoughtful responses, and the encouragement, of course... My husband and I were going back and forth on this and we were overthinking it in all kinds of ways: I only smoked for 9 years and only half a pack a day, so may be that it does not put me at such a higher risk...I even found studies that quantified the risk in pack  years (packs a day multiplied by the number of years, etc...) It just  felt that I wanted to game the system ( doesn't apply to my husband who  does not qualify yet; he will when people with one health issue come up...) and yet my anxious brain was telling me that, yes, if the state thinks I should get the vaccine , then I should...thank you again for confirming that! And now let the hunting for an appointment begin (mission impossible in my state!)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mythbuster on February 23, 2021, 12:16:30 PM
In Florida, no plan as to who gets the vaccine next after the seniors. DeSantis must think that only the over 65 set ever votes.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/02/23/who-gets-vaccinated-next-floridas-the-only-state-that-doesnt-tell-you/ (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/02/23/who-gets-vaccinated-next-floridas-the-only-state-that-doesnt-tell-you/)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on February 23, 2021, 02:19:29 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 23, 2021, 12:16:30 PM
In Florida, no plan as to who gets the vaccine next after the seniors. DeSantis must think that only the over 65 set ever votes.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/02/23/who-gets-vaccinated-next-floridas-the-only-state-that-doesnt-tell-you/ (https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2021/02/23/who-gets-vaccinated-next-floridas-the-only-state-that-doesnt-tell-you/)

Or maybe he figured that, since Florida has so many retirees in residence, it wouldn't take that long to vaccinate everybody else once they're done.

Our state has already vaccinated health care workers and first responders.  Currently priority is for those over 65.  Teachers are also supposed to be getting vaccination clinics at work as vaccine becomes available.  Talk about city workers getting it has so far only been speculation.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pink_ on February 24, 2021, 07:45:05 AM
My dad got his first shot yesterday, and my mom gets her second this weekend. They are both 80.

Meanwhile, I'm hearing that 1b, which includes educators at both k-12 & university levels, should open in up in Mid-March. I'm getting very impatient.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on February 24, 2021, 08:16:42 AM
I favor first responders, health care workers, and those 65+ vaccinated before others. I have elderly loved ones still anxiously waiting for their turn.  The whole "rollout" is chaos.  Different interest groups fighting to be included.

J & J vaccine looks set for approval.  Will people embrace it?  In Europe, there's resistance to AstraZeneca vaccine in favor of Pfizer.  S. Africa is donating a million doses of AstraZeneca to other countries that aren't so affected by the S. Africa variant.

Starting to think governments should have just ordered all companies to manufacture the Pfizer and Moderna.  Patents and other proprietary issues, yes, but didn't they get around such things for manufacturing emergency items during WW II?

Complex because J & J is reportedly, possibly more effective versus new variants than Pfizer, Moderna.   Yet overall effectiveness of J & J doesn't sound great.  But are Pfizer and Moderna rates exaggerated, given variants?

Trust is also an issue.  Whom can the public trust? Formerly a huge fan, I no longer trust Fauci and wish he'd shut up for a long while.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 24, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
I think that the J&J vaccine is a little less effective, but there are some major advantages.

It requires only one dose and does not require the ultra cold storage.

This will make it superior in many areas, especially 'fly over country'.  It will not require 2 trips to get fully vaccinated, and wont require specialized equipment.  The 2 trip issue can be a big issue, but the storage issues are also a huge factor! 

My second dose is 2 weeks away (I hope!! )  I am not and would not 'vaccine shop' trying to figure out which one has the best results as I fear that the virus will change anyway to reduce the efficacy of all of them! 

I would not be surprised to find that we add this to the annual flu shot regime. 

Hopefully, Soon!! 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on February 24, 2021, 09:29:30 AM
Quote from: clean on February 24, 2021, 08:45:15 AM
It requires only one dose and does not require the ultra cold storage.

Pfizer is seeking approval to store the vaccine at higher temps.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-pfizer-idUSKBN2AJ1CJ
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on February 27, 2021, 10:40:08 AM
I am approaching the date of the administration of my 2nd Covid 19 vaccination. After that deed is done, what, relationship wise, then? As I have no steady and, if and when the when opportunity arises, I once again become romantcally/sexually active is there a suggested timeline for resumption of specific facets of physical relations (i.e. no kissing on the first date or perhaps "french kissin'' "?  Awww.., y'all know at what I'm trying to get! Note that I am a male heterosexual who might be "riding down the trail to his last rodeo", so to write. Recommendations might be different that would  be offered to other bunches.

To simplify my concern, I ask: Am I immediately protected from transmission by others to me after the completion of innoculations. If not, when? My inquiry arises as I am considering operating, for profit, hugging booths.














Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on February 27, 2021, 11:36:09 AM
When does a 'for profit hugging booth' become 'prostitution' in your state?  I suspect that in the reddest states, you would be prosecuted for prostitution, long before  violating mask requirements?

On the serious side, I think that the best thing to say about the vaccination, is that IF you DO get sick, you will not be seriously sick. However, and Im not positive, but I think that you might be more likely to be an asymptomatic carrier  IF you do get sick. So mask wearing is still a good precaution! 

From what I think i heard about the Johnson and Johnson vaccine, the effectiveness is closer to 70% (while the others are supposed to be in the 90s), but 0% of the J&J vaccinated people required hospitalization.

Also, the vaccination takes a few weeks to fully 'kick in' after the second dose.  So after your first shot, you should still want to be in the rectory/nunnery for at least 6 weeks. 

As for the 'getting close to others', there is something on the news about  a "hugging wall"

https://www.aarp.org/home-family/friends-family/info-2020/hugging-wall.html

This may be what is going to be required for people until after their first anniversary in the future!  (it is good for COVID and  all STDs i think!)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on February 27, 2021, 12:18:01 PM
Quote from: clean on February 27, 2021, 11:36:09 AM
However, and Im not positive, but I think that you might be more likely to be an asymptomatic carrier  IF you do get sick.

Fortunately, this is not true-- there is now good evidence that vaccines substantially reduce transmission, not just illness. This was always very likely to be the case, because they stop the virus from replicating and thus decrease viral load even if you are infected, but now there is actual data from multiple countries on this.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 10:40:03 AM
Just learned that 24,000 doses of the new single-dose vaccine from Johnson & Johnson are supposed to be in the state by the end of the week.  That'll help.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 02, 2021, 10:47:35 AM
You might be in my state, but may state has similar news, but so do a lot of states, which was kind of the point in trying to lock in more vaccines. There will still be room for Novavax and AZN/Oxford, especially considering that we will be late in vaccinating kids, and probably boosters will be needed at some point.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

Maybe that needs to be in the stimulus bill.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 02, 2021, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

How much $$ are we talking?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

Maybe that needs to be in the stimulus bill.

Yes, and it's a good idea, well worth one hell of a lot of money. We have to beware, however, that when money is on offer for a vaccination, it pays us to claim we are antivaxxers.

Therefore, we'd have to pay everybody. And still a good idea.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 03:05:15 PM
Quote from: downer on March 02, 2021, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

How much $$ are we talking?

$500

That is much cheaper than a few weeks in the ICU on a ventilator.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 03:37:17 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 02:30:28 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 02, 2021, 12:56:01 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

Maybe that needs to be in the stimulus bill.

Yes, and it's a good idea, well worth one hell of a lot of money. We have to beware, however, that when money is on offer for a vaccination, it pays us to claim we are antivaxxers.

Therefore, we'd have to pay everybody. And still a good idea.

It would also be necessary to develop a good way of verifying that people had genuinely been vaccinated.  And precautions would need to be taken against Russian, Chinese, etc. hackers stealing billions of dollars by claiming vaccinations that never took place.  They've already made off with billions of dollars of stimulus relief.

Honestly, I think that paying people to be vaccinated would be a bad precedent.  People should be vaccinated because they understand that it's the thing to do.  If we pay people to be vaccinated for COVID, where will it end?  There are multiple vaccinations (chicken pox, rubella, etc.) that everybody needs to take.  Paying hundreds of dollars apiece for each of them just isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 03:53:19 PM
The reason to pay people to get vaccinated against many diseases is that that not only protects them, but also protects those not vaccinated.

Alternatively, one could fine people who do not get vaccinated. But that won't fly. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

I think what we do need to be doing is talking up what vaccination will allow you to do again-- as it is becoming increasingly clear that it will be pretty safe for vaccinated people to socialize with other vaccinated people (greatly reduced transmission, not just illness), that is a major selling point. I do think it is a mistake for super cautious public health folks to keep saying you can't change your behavior at all even after you are fully vaccinated. Instead, tell people what they can do that is relatively safe IF they are fully vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 04:39:05 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

I think what we do need to be doing is talking up what vaccination will allow you to do again-- as it is becoming increasingly clear that it will be pretty safe for vaccinated people to socialize with other vaccinated people (greatly reduced transmission, not just illness), that is a major selling point. I do think it is a mistake for super cautious public health folks to keep saying you can't change your behavior at all even after you are fully vaccinated. Instead, tell people what they can do that is relatively safe IF they are fully vaccinated.

There's the Israeli kibbutz story of parents not picking up their children on time even after a fine for lateness was imposed. Well, it was a small fine, so one can then rent child care at a low rate. If the fine were a sufficiently high share of income, this wouldn't be observed.

Same applies to vaccines: Give them enough and they will come! And anyway, it doesn't have to be everybody who is sensitive to price.

The additional point about bribing people to take vaccines, and not just to pick up their kids, is that those who don't take vaccines also benefit. By paying people for getting vaccinated we are merely recognizing that they are doing good for others.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).

Yeah, no way would my father get vaccinated for $500 (or any amount of money).  He would be highly suspicious.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 02, 2021, 04:57:20 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 03:05:15 PM
Quote from: downer on March 02, 2021, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: Anselm on March 02, 2021, 11:35:14 AM
Would it help herd immunity if we just paid people to take the vaccine?  The most hardcore antivaxx people will likely break down if offered cold hard cash.

How much $$ are we talking?

$500

That is much cheaper than a few weeks in the ICU on a ventilator.

That would be a good deal for me. Not sure it would be a good deal for the taxpayers.

There's also a question of whether consent to the procedure is free when there is a significant financial incentive. So it might be past the ethics board.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).

Yeah, no way would my father get vaccinated for $500 (or any amount of money).  He would be highly suspicious.

Would your father pay $500 to NOT get vaccinated? :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on March 02, 2021, 06:27:45 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

[. . .]

I will counter with the vaccination RCTs in Bannerjee and Duflo's Poor Economics.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 07:13:12 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).

Yeah, no way would my father get vaccinated for $500 (or any amount of money).  He would be highly suspicious.

Would your father pay $500 to NOT get vaccinated? :-)

No, he would probably file a lawsuit and stage a protest with lots of signs.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 02, 2021, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: spork on March 02, 2021, 06:27:45 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

[. . .]

I will counter with the vaccination RCTs in Bannerjee and Duflo's Poor Economics.

Interesting-- do you know the actual paper citations per chance? I'd be interested to check them out.
I don't doubt that it might work if the main barrier is just that people don't want to bother, or don't want to take the time to do it. Where I suspect it would backfire is with people who are actually vaccine hesitant, which seems to be the main problem in the US. I'm ready to change that hypothesis if there is data suggesting otherwise though!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 07:42:04 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 07:13:12 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 02, 2021, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 02, 2021, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).

Yeah, no way would my father get vaccinated for $500 (or any amount of money).  He would be highly suspicious.

Would your father pay $500 to NOT get vaccinated? :-)

No, he would probably file a lawsuit and stage a protest with lots of signs.

Well, yeah. How much would one be willing to pay for the lawsuit and for organizing the protest? It must be some finite number. We pay someone that, and s/he takes the pill! :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on March 02, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
My BIL says a bunch of guys he works with are concerned about the vaccine's impact on fertility. No amount of money would wipe that out. I'm not sure facts would either.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on March 03, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: spork on March 02, 2021, 06:27:45 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

[. . .]

I will counter with the vaccination RCTs in Bannerjee and Duflo's Poor Economics.

Interesting-- do you know the actual paper citations per chance? I'd be interested to check them out.
I don't doubt that it might work if the main barrier is just that people don't want to bother, or don't want to take the time to do it. Where I suspect it would backfire is with people who are actually vaccine hesitant, which seems to be the main problem in the US. I'm ready to change that hypothesis if there is data suggesting otherwise though!

Ch. 3 is about health care, with references to, among others, Richard Thaler. One piece of literature specific to immunization that is cited:

https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2220 (https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2220).

In general people in the USA are not very rational, and I think irrationality here is increasing over time. The era of U.S. world dominance is over. At this point we're just living off the carcass of what was created several decades ago.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 03, 2021, 08:17:48 AM
My state opened it up to essential workers and my state university sent out something saying we are all in that category, so I now have an appointment for Friday.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 03, 2021, 09:28:16 AM
Quote from: spork on March 03, 2021, 08:10:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 07:33:22 PM
Quote from: spork on March 02, 2021, 06:27:45 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 02, 2021, 04:22:07 PM
Behavioral economics research suggests paying people might backfire. If you're offering money to get someone to do something, they are likely to conclude that it must be something that they wouldn't otherwise want to do, so you might actually increase resistance (especially among the hard-core anti-vaxxers who would see it as yet another conspiracy).  Ironically, the fact that vaccines are currently hard to get may be driving up demand for the same reason-- anything scarce must be worth having. Not rational on either count, but humans aren't.

[. . .]

I will counter with the vaccination RCTs in Bannerjee and Duflo's Poor Economics.

Interesting-- do you know the actual paper citations per chance? I'd be interested to check them out.
I don't doubt that it might work if the main barrier is just that people don't want to bother, or don't want to take the time to do it. Where I suspect it would backfire is with people who are actually vaccine hesitant, which seems to be the main problem in the US. I'm ready to change that hypothesis if there is data suggesting otherwise though!

Ch. 3 is about health care, with references to, among others, Richard Thaler. One piece of literature specific to immunization that is cited:

https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2220 (https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2220).

In general people in the USA are not very rational, and I think irrationality here is increasing over time. The era of U.S. world dominance is over. At this point we're just living off the carcass of what was created several decades ago.

OK thanks-- as I suspected, that was research in rural India, so the reasons people are not getting vaccinated are quite distinct from vaccine hesitancy in the current US context.

As I noted above, incentives work when people aren't opposed to doing something, but just aren't motivated to do so or perceive a cost (actual or opportunity) to doing so. So as in this study, could be a good tool for getting poor farmers to get routine vaccinations that are otherwise not high on their priority list in an already difficulty existence.

However, in the current US context, although a subset of healthy young adults who don't see COVID as a threat might respond well to incentives, those who are vaccine hesitant because they have fears or believe conspiracy theories about the vaccines are likely to see incentives as confirmation that there is something wrong with the vaccines -- see you have to pay people to take them!

In short, I think this is a good reminder that interventions can't necessarily be translated from one context to another, and that we need to look beyond behaviors that are similar on the surface (low vaccine uptake) to determine why people are engaging in those behaviors.

Not meant as a personal gripe at spork, just a general point, and pitch for including some psychologists and not just economists in policy ;-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on March 03, 2021, 09:54:04 AM
No offense taken, I have a similar opinion of most economists.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: hesitant on February 22, 2021, 08:27:33 PM
All of this brings me to my own dilemma: should I get vaccinated? I qualify in my state because I am obese (BMI: 33.4) and a former smoker, both of which are listed as co-morbidities by the CDC that  put me at higher risk for COVID complications. And yes, I do realize these are both result of life style choices. I wouldn't just get a vaccine  because I can, but here is why I am even contemplating it.

I am  an immigrant (no family in the US), 48 year old,  with a 7 year old daughter, who attends school in person twice a week. My husband, who is 56, is also a  former smoker (a very heavy one at that; 2 packs a day for 30 years...). Had it been just us, with no child in school, I would not even contemplate a vaccination at this point: we work from home and can socially distance. My neighbors who work in supermarkets, hospitals and schools need the shot more than I do. However, just the thought of my daughter bringing COVID to one or both of us and one of us -- or, the unthinkable, both of us --  dying, horrifies me. (Keeping her home is not an option for her; she developed some serious mental health issues in the spring, as 6 year old who lived in isolation for 6 months before her school partially reopened last fall).

I know  that I am not the only one in this position, but what would you do if you were me -- obese former middle aged smoker with a young child? If your state allowed it, would you get the vaccine now or wait for it to be available to everyone first? I really do not know (and my intense anxiety around health/death and leaving a young child behind is not helping me make the right decision...)

Trust the process the experts have in place. If you are eligible, get the vaccine. They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most. You aren't taking it from anyone.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on March 03, 2021, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most.

With all due respect and nothing to do with the post to which you replied, the quoted sentence is 100% false.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 03, 2021, 12:14:04 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 03, 2021, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most.

With all due respect and nothing to do with the post to which you replied, the quoted sentence is 100% false.

The whole thing is a mess, as it was always going to be. And it reflects all kinds of inequalities and injustices. However, these aren't things you can fix by not getting a shot. Some things just can't be addressed with personal actions. I'm not teaching in person this semester, but I got an email from my state school that all faculty and staff are classified as essential workers and are now eligible for the vaccine. I now have an appointment later this week. I have no idea if this is good policy or not and I lack the information to figure it out. We need to do more to expand access to people who are underserved, but I don't really think that me not getting a vaccine is going to help do that.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 04:28:13 AM
I got my second shot! Very hopeful that Biden achieves his goal of a vaccine for every adult by the end of May. I saw a map estimating when other countries will be fully covered and some were not estimated until early 2023. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56025355)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 04, 2021, 07:19:04 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 04, 2021, 04:28:13 AM
I got my second shot! Very hopeful that Biden achieves his goal of a vaccine for every adult by the end of May. I saw a map estimating when other countries will be fully covered and some were not estimated until early 2023. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56025355)

That's a terribly long time for these other nations to continue to have to deal with this pandemic.  For some of them the worst may still be ahead.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 04, 2021, 07:20:03 AM
The number of known active cases in our county is down to 20.  Here's hoping that complacency and fair weather don't balloon those numbers again in the weeks to come.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on March 04, 2021, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 03, 2021, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most.

With all due respect and nothing to do with the post to which you replied, the quoted sentence is 100% false.

Yes, and...

On the one hand, it's someone else's job, not the OP's to figure out how to get it to those people. Whether or not they are entirely successful is another conversation, still, there are real efforts in place.

And, even if they are not successful, the OP not getting a shot will not suddenly turn things around for those who are not getting shots who need them.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pink_ on March 04, 2021, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 03, 2021, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most.

With all due respect and nothing to do with the post to which you replied, the quoted sentence is 100% false.

In my state, it's the Hunger Games, but with needles. Some areas have a shortage of vaccine while others have plenty. I know a ton of people who have gotten their shots before being eligible by calling around to pharmacies and being willing to come in at the drop of a hat so that the left overs don't get thrown out. I know a lot of others who volunteered at one of the clinics for an 8 hour shift to get a shot at the end of the day.

I got my first shot yesterday through a version of the waste-list plan, but that worked out because I took several hours on a few different days to work the phone. Otherwise I would still be waiting around while my governor walks back the few restrictions that we have had.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on March 05, 2021, 06:59:14 AM
UPDATING  A FAMOUS QUOTE, "ASK NOT WHAT YOUR COUNTRY CAN DO FOR YOU BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR COUNTRY", JFK. Further SUGGESTIONS, WEAR A MASK AND SOCIAL DISTANCE!!!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: histchick on March 05, 2021, 12:21:08 PM
Quote from: pink_ on March 04, 2021, 11:10:50 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 03, 2021, 10:23:40 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
They have figured out how to get it out to the people who need it most.

With all due respect and nothing to do with the post to which you replied, the quoted sentence is 100% false.

In my state, it's the Hunger Games, but with needles. Some areas have a shortage of vaccine while others have plenty. I know a ton of people who have gotten their shots before being eligible by calling around to pharmacies and being willing to come in at the drop of a hat so that the left overs don't get thrown out. I know a lot of others who volunteered at one of the clinics for an 8 hour shift to get a shot at the end of the day.

I got my first shot yesterday through a version of the waste-list plan, but that worked out because I took several hours on a few different days to work the phone. Otherwise I would still be waiting around while my governor walks back the few restrictions that we have had.
I wish we had the waste-list plan in my state.  Instead, our governor opened up eligibility for K-12 faculty and staff to get vaccinated starting next week, and specifically excluded college/university faculty and staff.  The state is pretty much eliminating phases, and we've yet to vaccinate anyone under 65 who is at high risk (or even many essential workers).  Our dean has been given us directions on her social media page to cross state lines, where they are vaccinating college and university faculty and staff.  My husband and I decided that we will wait our turn here, though we understand why many of our colleagues are going out-of-state. 

Waste-list plan?  We know nothing of that here.  Hell, we've been told that the eligibility phases are pretty much being eliminated, and we're still making people wait to even try to get a vaccine. 

On a good note, we hear that we might be able to compete for a slot as early as the end of this month. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 05, 2021, 01:41:50 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.

Its so strange to me that people with these attitudes are particularly suspicious of vaccines, which basically just show a picture of a pathogen to the immune system. After that, they work because our immune systems are really good at learning how to kill pathogens. If you compare vaccines to antibiotics, they are incredibly non-invasive.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 05, 2021, 01:51:01 PM
Quote from: Caracal on March 05, 2021, 01:41:50 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.

Its so strange to me that people with these attitudes are particularly suspicious of vaccines, which basically just show a picture of a pathogen to the immune system. After that, they work because our immune systems are really good at learning how to kill pathogens. If you compare vaccines to antibiotics, they are incredibly non-invasive.
This captures that attitude perfectly, with a twist: https://xkcd.com/2397/
And this actually does a really good job of explaining things: https://xkcd.com/2425/
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on March 05, 2021, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.

It's always the old high school friend.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on March 05, 2021, 04:44:31 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 05, 2021, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.

It's always the old high school friend.

Yeah, and he's a chiropractor to boot.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on March 05, 2021, 07:46:07 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 05, 2021, 04:44:31 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 05, 2021, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: pgher on March 04, 2021, 06:09:52 PM
Today I shared this column (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-choice-between-two-covid-19-futures-lets-make-the-right-one/2021/03/04/e4ee04d8-7d1c-11eb-a976-c028a4215c78_story.html) by Eugene Robinson on Facebook. An old high school friend replied, among other things, "Health comes from the inside out, not the outside artificial route." So far, I have chosen not to respond. I don't even know where to begin.

Yet another data point supporting the "we're all doomed" narrative.

It's always the old high school friend.

Yeah, and he's a chiropractor to boot.

There are sensible chiropractors who know what they're doing, and quacks.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on March 05, 2021, 10:35:55 PM
Perhaps in a relative sense, but chiropractic itself is essentially quackery, based as it is on junk, made-up science.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on March 06, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
Now that vaccines are becoming more available, I'm wondering if the people that get them ahead of the general larger population, are feeling a sense of temporary ascendancy.

I can see where being vaccinated can give someone a social and/or career advantage, for the next couple of months, while everyone else tries to catch up, while balefully scrolling by the gleeful social media posts of the vaccinated.

I'm seeing this in my k-12 teacher friends who are getting vaccinated ahead of most everyone else. For this brief moment, they are enjoying an elevated status, which they deserve considering the scorn & suspicion & that has been heaped upon them for the last year, despite being abandoned on an island to do an impossible job.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 06, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
I dont know if they feel glee, or elevated status, but I am sure that they feel relief. 

Some look at the shot as an ability to get back to normal, an opening of the door that has shut them in. 

after the shot some are looking forward to returning to the world of eating in a restaurant, going to a movie, shopping (some have been using home delivery or curbside pick up - which some like and will continue)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 06, 2021, 04:42:00 PM
Quote from: clean on March 06, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
I dont know if they feel glee, or elevated status, but I am sure that they feel relief. 

Some look at the shot as an ability to get back to normal, an opening of the door that has shut them in. 

after the shot some are looking forward to returning to the world of eating in a restaurant, going to a movie, shopping (some have been using home delivery or curbside pick up - which some like and will continue)

Hmm, well I got my first shot yesterday. Can't say I feel any elevated status. I might feel more relaxed when I start getting a certain amount of protection in two weeks. Once the full protection kicks in 10 days or whatever after second shot, I suppose I'll think about what it changes. Since I have a young kid, the main question for me is exactly how much the vaccines protect against transmission. It's pretty clear that they protect quite a bit, but if its like upwards of 75 percent that would be a big difference. My parents and in laws are all vaccinated, so I'm not worried about them, nor am I really worried about the kid getting infected. However, I wouldn't want to send him to school and have him transmit to other kids who might transmit to people more vulnerable and it isn't easy to keep him home for a week+.

Other than that, I probably will be fine with more low risk things like going to a store. I wouldn't go to a restaurant till cases are much much lower.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 06, 2021, 04:49:18 PM
I'm going in for #1 tomorrow, with the over 90 set! :-)

If it were up to me, I'd sell my shot on a black market, which unfortunately does not exist. Where are the cartels when we need them?

People, the vaccine reduces risk, one hell of a lot. We cannot ask for more.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 07, 2021, 05:00:36 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)

The vaccine probably almost certainly does provide a fair amount of protection against transmission. I can understand not wanting to do anything until you know how much, but this isn't necessarily crazy. If the in laws aren't doing anything indoors with others, then risk is quite lower. If doing things only with vaccinated people, also pretty low probably. Also, of course, depends on the extent to which you are out in the world and might transmit in the unlikely event you became infected.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on March 07, 2021, 05:43:06 AM
Two Down, Done Deal! At completion I was given my document that said so. "Why", I asked. "In case you have to certify that you have for some reason.",  I was told.

Me, at a singles gathering, "Hi, I'm Randy", response, "Yes, of course. My name is Audrey. "YOUR PAPERS!"
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 07, 2021, 06:41:09 AM
I wouldn't have a big party, but vaccinated people, several weeks after their last shot, are likely very well protected, if you believe the Pfizer data out of Israel, etc.. Small masked gatherings are probably OK. The question then becomes whether the visitors have to travel through airports and such to get to Grandma. If that's so, hold off. Let them call the shots on how much risk they are willing to assume, but you get to call shots on whether you wish to be a part of that yet.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 07, 2021, 08:14:56 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 07, 2021, 06:41:09 AM
I wouldn't have a big party, but vaccinated people, several weeks after their last shot, are likely very well protected, if you believe the Pfizer data out of Israel, etc.. Small masked gatherings are probably OK. The question then becomes whether the visitors have to travel through airports and such to get to Grandma. If that's so, hold off. Let them call the shots on how much risk they are willing to assume, but you get to call shots on whether you wish to be a part of that yet.

And various studies also show that vaccinated people are much less likely to be infected, even asymptomatically. None of them are totally randomized trails so it makes sense to be a bit cautious about it, but it fits with what everyone has suspected from the beginning.

Medical systems and public health tend to be really bad at dealing with risk and individual calculations and default to an idea that no amount of risk is acceptable, which is just unworkable because it doesn't consider the costs. Not being able to visit family members and friends is crummy, my parents aren't getting younger and it means a lot to my kid to see them. Socializing is really important, etc. etc. Up to this point the risk of visiting people and indoor socializing has been so high, that it outweighs those high costs, but as a vaccine drives those risks down you have to evaluate when that switches for some things.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on March 07, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)

Thanks for sharing this.

1. Is this because, although vaccinated (with second dose, say a month ago), age 80s in-laws have a small chance of catching Covid from family who are not vaccinated?

2.  Is it because we don't yet know with certainty whether the vaccinated can still transmit the virus to those not vaccinated?

3.  What are people's thoughts on someone who is not vaccinated visiting elderly family members who are vaccinated?  Is that too much of a risk to the elderly?  In some families, there may be some members who choose not to get vaccinated.  What are the implications?

4.  I'm confused.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 07, 2021, 09:07:40 AM
I think a lot of the messaging around post-vaccination risks coming from some public health folks is unhelpful and likely to backfire. People are bad at thinking about risk probabilities. If you keep telling people they can't do anything differently because the risk is non-zero, they are likely to just dismiss any other messaging around risk mitigation. After all, nothing in life is zero risk (including staying home alone!), so that's just not a realistic goal.

Helping people think about risk budgets would be much more helpful-- want to spend time indoors with a select group of other vaccinated people? Great, you can do that relatively safely, but maybe think about not eating indoors at restaurants to help balance the risk budget, etc.

Also, I lot of us who do mental health research think the second wave mental health crisis from all this will be a certain percentage of people who remain extremely anxious about health risks to the point that they continue to isolate and find it very hard to re-engage in normal activities. You already see this e.g., in people who continue to do things like wipe down groceries with disinfectant and leave packages and mail "quarantined" for days, despite petty clear scientific consensus that this is neither necessary nor helpful (and potentially harmful given the cleaning products are not always benign).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: histchick on March 07, 2021, 10:02:52 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 07, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)

Thanks for sharing this.

1. Is this because, although vaccinated (with second dose, say a month ago), age 80s in-laws have a small chance of catching Covid from family who are not vaccinated?

2.  Is it because we don't yet know with certainty whether the vaccinated can still transmit the virus to those not vaccinated?

3.  What are people's thoughts on someone who is not vaccinated visiting elderly family members who are vaccinated?  Is that too much of a risk to the elderly?  In some families, there may be some members who choose not to get vaccinated.  What are the implications?

4.  I'm confused.
In my case, it's a combo of #1 and #2.  My parents are in their 70s (mother was recent cancer patient) and my husband and I are high-risk and haven't been vaccinated. My brother lives with my parents and works outside the home.  He's very careful around them (and they with him).  We have seen them three times since February 2020, but only because we were able to isolate for several days before and after each visit, and they have plenty of room to distance even during a meal. Still a risk, but one with which everyone was comfortable. 

Our state may expand eligibility at the end of the month, so we should be fully vaccinated by early May, right as the semester is ending.  At this point, we might as well wait to visit again.  My parents, while they want to see us, understand completely. 

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 07, 2021, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: Puget on March 07, 2021, 09:07:40 AM
I think a lot of the messaging around post-vaccination risks coming from some public health folks is unhelpful and likely to backfire. People are bad at thinking about risk probabilities. If you keep telling people they can't do anything differently because the risk is non-zero, they are likely to just dismiss any other messaging around risk mitigation. After all, nothing in life is zero risk (including staying home alone!), so that's just not a realistic goal.

Helping people think about risk budgets would be much more helpful-- want to spend time indoors with a select group of other vaccinated people? Great, you can do that relatively safely, but maybe think about not eating indoors at restaurants to help balance the risk budget, etc.

Also, I lot of us who do mental health research think the second wave mental health crisis from all this will be a certain percentage of people who remain extremely anxious about health risks to the point that they continue to isolate and find it very hard to re-engage in normal activities. You already see this e.g., in people who continue to do things like wipe down groceries with disinfectant and leave packages and mail "quarantined" for days, despite petty clear scientific consensus that this is neither necessary nor helpful (and potentially harmful given the cleaning products are not always benign).

All good points. I know a lot of my anxiety comes from wanting certainty and reassurance about things where it is impossible to get them. Obviously wanting to avoid getting COVID and spreading it to others is reasonable and socially responsible and given the really high levels of transmission and the dangers it is has been reasonable to take extreme measures to do that. However, once vaccination starts to change those numbers, it becomes reasonable to adjust. It isn't healthy to take an attitude that any chance of getting COVID or spreading it to someone else is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 01:33:43 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 07, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)

Thanks for sharing this.

1. Is this because, although vaccinated (with second dose, say a month ago), age 80s in-laws have a small chance of catching Covid from family who are not vaccinated?

2.  Is it because we don't yet know with certainty whether the vaccinated can still transmit the virus to those not vaccinated?

3.  What are people's thoughts on someone who is not vaccinated visiting elderly family members who are vaccinated?  Is that too much of a risk to the elderly?  In some families, there may be some members who choose not to get vaccinated.  What are the implications?

4.  I'm confused.

They got their second dose last week, so they aren't even fully protected yet.

But it is a combination of 3 things. 
1) Transmission to and from the vaccinated is unclear at present (so, #1 and #2)
2) The assumption that is only them we need to worry about.
3) The assumption that (generic) YOUR assessment of the risk should trump everyone else's.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 07, 2021, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Economizer on March 07, 2021, 05:43:06 AM
Two Down, Done Deal! At completion I was given my document that said so. "Why", I asked. "In case you have to certify that you have for some reason.",  I was told.

Me, at a singles gathering, "Hi, I'm Randy", response, "Yes, of course. My name is Audrey. "YOUR PAPERS!"

If you travel in the next year, you may need those papers. I've seen some discussion of airlines possibly requiring documentation depending on destination. A friend received a $500 bonus for presenting his vaccine certification to corporate HR.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: wareagle on March 08, 2021, 12:41:39 PM
My state is moving on to the educators, and they did include higher ed in the category.  I finally have an appointment a week from Friday!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 08, 2021, 02:01:50 PM
CDC issues interim public health recommendations for fully-vaccinated people (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html)

NPR article about it (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/08/974783644/cdc-says-its-safe-for-vaccinated-people-to-do-these-activities)



In other news, women tend to have more unpleasant experiences with COVID vaccines, as with other vaccines (from the NY Times) (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/08/health/vaccine-side-effects-women-men.html).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 08, 2021, 03:25:12 PM
FYI. Some grocery stores have 'Leftover Lists' or 'Waste Lists' for leftover vaccines that have not been used (and need to be or they will be wasted) at the end of the day. I signed us up today.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 09, 2021, 07:10:40 AM
Librarians are now officially eligible in our state!  Maybe that municipal employee vaccination clinic we've been hearing noises about can actually take place soon.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on March 09, 2021, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 07, 2021, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Economizer on March 07, 2021, 05:43:06 AM
Two Down, Done Deal! At completion I was given my document that said so. "Why", I asked. "In case you have to certify that you have for some reason.",  I was told.

Me, at a singles gathering, "Hi, I'm Randy", response, "Yes, of course. My name is Audrey. "YOUR PAPERS!"

If you travel in the next year, you may need those papers. I've seen some discussion of airlines possibly requiring documentation depending on destination. A friend received a $500 bonus for presenting his vaccine certification to corporate HR.
About the document, it is a card. It is a CDC issue and, rather than being wallet sized which works well for men, it is more like a 3x5 that is more suited to a purse or handbag. So men, we go to the use of a purse or handbag. PRONTO!!!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 09, 2021, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: Economizer on March 09, 2021, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on March 07, 2021, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: Economizer on March 07, 2021, 05:43:06 AM
Two Down, Done Deal! At completion I was given my document that said so. "Why", I asked. "In case you have to certify that you have for some reason.",  I was told.

Me, at a singles gathering, "Hi, I'm Randy", response, "Yes, of course. My name is Audrey. "YOUR PAPERS!"

If you travel in the next year, you may need those papers. I've seen some discussion of airlines possibly requiring documentation depending on destination. A friend received a $500 bonus for presenting his vaccine certification to corporate HR.
About the document, it is a card. It is a CDC issue and, rather than being wallet sized which works well for men, it is more like a 3x5 that is more suited to a purse or handbag. So men, we go to the use of a purse or handbag. PRONTO!!!

I scanned mine, so I can present it on phone. The card is filed with passport.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 09, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
QuoteThe card is filed with passport.

Interesting... How did you do this?

(and by 'filed with passport', you mean that you submitted it to the Department of State - which issued you the passport?)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on March 10, 2021, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: clean on March 09, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
QuoteThe card is filed with passport.

Interesting... How did you do this?

(and by 'filed with passport', you mean that you submitted it to the Department of State - which issued you the passport?)

Hah--I assumed it meant, 'I put it in my physical filing cabinet in the same folder where I keep my physical passport.' Vkw10, which interpretation is it?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: histchick on March 10, 2021, 07:45:20 AM
Quote from: histchick on March 07, 2021, 10:02:52 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on March 07, 2021, 08:55:19 AM
Quote from: FishProf on March 07, 2021, 04:04:35 AM
My in-laws (80s) are vaccinated, and now they are insisting that it is safe to come and visit us and be all together in the living room.

Grrr.  WE are not vaccinated, and Smolt won't be for quite a while.  So, NO.  (Now I have to convince MrsFishProf)

Thanks for sharing this.

1. Is this because, although vaccinated (with second dose, say a month ago), age 80s in-laws have a small chance of catching Covid from family who are not vaccinated?

2.  Is it because we don't yet know with certainty whether the vaccinated can still transmit the virus to those not vaccinated?

3.  What are people's thoughts on someone who is not vaccinated visiting elderly family members who are vaccinated?  Is that too much of a risk to the elderly?  In some families, there may be some members who choose not to get vaccinated.  What are the implications?

4.  I'm confused.
In my case, it's a combo of #1 and #2.  My parents are in their 70s (mother was recent cancer patient) and my husband and I are high-risk and haven't been vaccinated. My brother lives with my parents and works outside the home.  He's very careful around them (and they with him).  We have seen them three times since February 2020, but only because we were able to isolate for several days before and after each visit, and they have plenty of room to distance even during a meal. Still a risk, but one with which everyone was comfortable. 

Our state may expand eligibility at the end of the month, so we should be fully vaccinated by early May, right as the semester is ending.  At this point, we might as well wait to visit again.  My parents, while they want to see us, understand completely.
As it turns out, Walmart is doing a waste-avoidance protocol in my state.  This has not been widely advertised.  A colleague called my husband yesterday morning, he called Walmart, and presto change-o, they called right back to tell us that we could come in yesterday afternoon.  Go figure. 

If my mother didn't hear anything about it in her major metropolitan area, and I didn't hear anything about it until yesterday, and I check our state's DPH site regularly, I can't help but wonder how many other sites have waste-avoidance protocols in place and just aren't advertising them. 

On another note, my husband has only a sore arm.  I have muscle aches all over my body, and had chills last night.  Go figure. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 10, 2021, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: ergative on March 10, 2021, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: clean on March 09, 2021, 08:37:41 PM
QuoteThe card is filed with passport.

Interesting... How did you do this?

(and by 'filed with passport', you mean that you submitted it to the Department of State - which issued you the passport?)

Hah--I assumed it meant, 'I put it in my physical filing cabinet in the same folder where I keep my physical passport.' Vkw10, which interpretation is it?

Filing cabinet. I have a scanner app on phone, but I suppose the phone camera would work, too.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on March 10, 2021, 11:21:16 PM
waste-avoidance protocol?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 11, 2021, 12:01:39 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 10, 2021, 11:21:16 PM
waste-avoidance protocol?
Distribution of doses that would otherwise go to waste (because the vials are only good for so long once thawed).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 11, 2021, 07:47:24 AM
My parents are scheduled for their second dose on Saturday.  It will be good to know that they're fully protected.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 11, 2021, 01:00:45 PM
I am scheduled for Dose 2 on Saturday.

Also, my state has opened the 1C group to be those over 50 starting Monday. 

The county has a distribution center for this area of the state (this and the neighboring 5 counties).  Some of the mass clinics are open (just show up) and others require that you register.  You can register by phone or computer.  I was able to get through, online, though I didnt know it was successful initially as I didnt get the appropriate computer reply, but I did get the alert to show up and I was on the list when I did! 

Saturday I have to be at the regional fairgrounds at 8 am for a 9 am appointment.  I think that 5000 shots are being scheduled for that day.

It is harder for people who are not able to drive to get there, but the system seems to be moving along.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on March 12, 2021, 06:50:24 AM
Why it's good to have medical professionals as part of one's social network: I was texted by a neighbor who is a nurse about the availability of vaccination appointments for people in our zip code who are younger than 65. She sent me the link to the website for registration; I promptly entered my information and got an appointment within an hour. I arrived 10 minutes early, and good thing I did, because I was one of the last half dozen people in line to get vaccinated. Everyone after that had to go home because the day's supply had run out. Apparently the registration system had a glitch and was letting more people register than there were doses available.

Currently running a fever, which makes me happy, because it probably means my immune system is reacting to the vaccine. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mythbuster on March 12, 2021, 09:15:34 AM
I got vaccinated today! I went to the FEMA run vaccination site, where the word is out that they are vaccinating all educators regardless of any state age restrictions. I would not have qualified in my state otherwise.  It was smooth and well run. I did not have an appointment, had a choice of either Pfizer of J&J, and was in and out in less than 30 minutes.
   There was a steady stream of people arriving and a small line has formed at the entrance as I was leaving. Everyone was happy to be there and I effusively thanked all the Army folks running the site.
    I opted for J&J based on variant coverage, as the variants are running rampant here. My arm is slightly sore and I have a light headache- all good signs of immune engagement. Mr. Buster got the Moderna shot through his workplace in January, so between us I'm hoping we have different epitope reactivities.

So my suggestion is to look for a Federally run site, as they may be more lenient in who they will vaccinate than the state regulations claim. Biden wants all teachers vaccinated now, and that includes all of us. I think it likely also includes daycare workers- who really do need coverage to get us back up and running.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 12, 2021, 03:24:26 PM
SO and I just got our first dose of Moderna through the waste list. Seems unreal since we are both under 50.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on March 12, 2021, 03:26:14 PM
Fever is back, probably because the acetaminophen that I took ten hours ago has worn off. Also getting some muscle pain. Generally I feel like crap. There is a chance that my reaction to the JNJ vaccine is due to being infected with Covid-19 back in April -- I was not tested for active infection then, but I had a weird sore throat for a few days and my wife reported losing her sense of taste. Never got an antigen test given that no one knows how long immunity from infection lasts.

Anyway, I'm very happy to have these symptoms because it means my immune system might be producing antibodies.     
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on March 12, 2021, 06:35:40 PM
Happy for everyone getting vaccines, thanks for sharing.

Interesting to have two here getting the more recently-available J&J already.  I like the idea of one dose only.

Stay hydrated.  Pamper yourselves.  Have a good weekend.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 13, 2021, 06:47:11 AM
My parents should be lining up to get their second doses as I type this.  We've also learned that there will be a vaccination clinic in our county in two weeks.  "Essential workers" of various kinds will be eligible.  That includes the members of our staff!  I'm going to strongly encourage staff members to take advantage of this opportunity.  We can work out schedules so that they can get vaccinated during work hours.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 13, 2021, 09:04:39 AM
im home!

I left the house about 720.  Got the the fair grounds, lined up, and registered by 810.  Left the fair grounds by 930.

My bride (vaccinated a few weeks ago) went with me.  (I think that she wanted me to take her to breakfast... Well, I KNOW that she wanted me to take her to breakfast because she made me take her to breakfast! )

Too early to report on any side effects. 

As I was up early, I may need a nap soon! 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 15, 2021, 07:29:26 AM
Mom and Dad got vaccinated as scheduled on Saturday morning.  Dad had only a mild reaction.  Mom had fever, chills, aches, and a very bad evening.  She was much better by Sunday evening.  They should both be good from here on out.

I've just registered online as an "Essential Government" worker--which library workers officially are now in our state--at a local vaccine clinic scheduled for Friday 3/26.  Now to see about talking the rest of the staff into taking advantage of the opportunity.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Anselm on March 16, 2021, 02:00:40 PM
My niece works at a grocery store.  She just told me that she will get a $100 bonus after she gets her second shot.  My greatest motivation for getting it is that I likely may need it to fly internationally.  When this crap settles down I plan a long vacation far away.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 16, 2021, 03:03:49 PM
Our state has now opened vaccination to all people 16-64 with underlying health risks, a wide assortment of essential workers in fields like food service and finance, and prison inmates.

I had a long talk with one staff member today who had indicated that she had no plans to vaccinate.  I pleaded with her to sign up for the vaccination clinic that's coming up.  She refused to budge.  Her resistance just bewilders me.  Not even going to try offering a vaccination bonus.  It would probably just make her feel kind of insulted.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 16, 2021, 03:12:30 PM
QuoteNot even going to try offering a vaccination bonus.  It would probably just make her feel kind of insulted.

Might depend on how much is on offer. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 16, 2021, 05:12:08 PM
My university finally succeeded in getting vaccines from state. They also got some from county, to serve as a vaccination site. The vaccination site is adjacent to central transfer point for bus routes and county is waiving bus fares for everyone on vaccination days. Smart move, since the main county vaccination site isn't near bus route and our site is in a building that's been mostly empty this year.

Glad I've already been vaccinated, but the campus site is extremely popular with department staff.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on March 16, 2021, 05:51:07 PM
In our area educators are vaccinated and the K-12 schools have opened up. For some reason our college is still dragging its feet on reopening for summer and fall. Not sure why.

Seems you could allow faculty to decide how they prefer to teach and go from there?

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on March 16, 2021, 09:32:38 PM
Anyone know how someone who is under the current minimum age for normal vax eligibility in one's state, but is supposed to be eligible under health and/or career exceptions, is supposed to verify those statuses, in order to get the vax?   
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 16, 2021, 10:10:10 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 16, 2021, 09:32:38 PM
Anyone know how someone who is under the current minimum age for normal vax eligibility in one's state, but is supposed to be eligible under health and/or career exceptions, is supposed to verify those statuses, in order to get the vax?
It varies by state and (in some cases) condition and vaccine provider.

My sister qualified in her state on account of obesity, and despite it being plainly visible, she was still "carded" and had to pull up her electronic medical record on her phone to show the formal diagnosis.

In other cases, I've heard of people getting doctor's notes attesting to their qualifying condition(s).

In Massachusetts,
Quote from: mass.govYou do not need a doctor's note or other proof of eligibility. You will not be asked to share any specific health information or medical diagnoses when you book an appointment or when you receive the vaccine. You will only be asked to confirm that you meet the current eligibility criteria. Please honor the eligibility criteria and understand that priority for the currently limited vaccine supply goes to people who are at greatest risk for severe illness from COVID-19.
( Source: https://www.mass.gov/doc/massachusetts-covid-19-vaccine-frequently-asked-questions-for-individuals-ages-65-and-older-and/download )
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: BourbonRose on March 17, 2021, 12:14:24 AM
In order to get mine through the county, I had to make an appointment online. Before I could get to that page, I had to answer a questionnaire about eligibility criteria. My guess is that anyone answering, "No" to a question gets told to come back later.

It was quick and easy, but I couldn't get an appointment for two weeks and did not get a wide range of appointment times. That was fine--anything would do, really.

The county confirmed my appointment by email and text message, and they used both to send me a reminder a couple of days ahead of time.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on March 17, 2021, 11:41:37 AM
Quote from: BourbonRose on March 17, 2021, 12:14:24 AM
In order to get mine through the county, I had to make an appointment online. Before I could get to that page, I had to answer a questionnaire about eligibility criteria. My guess is that anyone answering, "No" to a question gets told to come back later.

It was quick and easy, but I couldn't get an appointment for two weeks and did not get a wide range of appointment times. That was fine--anything would do, really.

The county confirmed my appointment by email and text message, and they used both to send me a reminder a couple of days ahead of time.

+1 here in Illinois.  The registry finally opened up mid-last week for under-65 with comorbidities, so we signed up with the local health dept.  I was shocked when ALHS and I each got emails late yesterday, telling us there were appointments for today.  We hurried and signed up for a time and now have our first doses--second doses on April 14. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 17, 2021, 12:04:10 PM
Hooray, ALH and BourbonRose!

My state is imminently expanding eligibility to my age group, and spouse and I are hoping we can get appointments quickly.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Antiphon1 on March 17, 2021, 01:19:07 PM
Mr. Anti and I are significantly below the 65+ threshold: however, we did qualify based on our profession.  About 10 weeks ago, we enrolled on the county website.  The Friday of the week we enrolled, the county called and asked if we were interested in receiving some of the extra doses.  We were.  As of 2 weeks ago we are both fully vaccinated (2 doses) and past the 3 week waiting period.  We told the Anti boys we were blowing this joint and going walk about.  They can hold down the fort so to speak.  Or at least feed the dog. Life is good. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 17, 2021, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 16, 2021, 09:32:38 PM
Anyone know how someone who is under the current minimum age for normal vax eligibility in one's state, but is supposed to be eligible under health and/or career exceptions, is supposed to verify those statuses, in order to get the vax?

Here in Texas, state designated vaccination hubs are not supposed to verify, just ask "do any of the following apply". My brother tells me that in SC, providers are supposed to verify eligibility.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: histchick on March 20, 2021, 11:12:33 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 16, 2021, 09:32:38 PM
Anyone know how someone who is under the current minimum age for normal vax eligibility in one's state, but is supposed to be eligible under health and/or career exceptions, is supposed to verify those statuses, in order to get the vax?
Many of the pharmacies don't seem to be checking eligibility, from what I'm hearing from friends.  I've also heard that the mass vaccination sites aren't checking either, but it could just be my state. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 20, 2021, 11:34:57 AM
Spouse and I are scheduled to be vaccinated this coming week.  (Hooray!)  Though the clinic site is about a 20-minute drive away, we opted to stagger our appointment times (one Tuesday, one Friday). That way, if either of us gets miserable side effects after this or the second shot (assuming Moderna or Pfizer, which is what the site has had in the past), one of us will still be able to take care of the baby and not miss class (no class Wednesday).

I also heard about, and hope to join, a study looking at possible transfer of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies through breastmilk after vaccination.  Have to decide if I just want to provide samples, or if I'm also willing to have the baby stuck some number of times.  I'm reluctantly leaning towards the latter, because these are important questions.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 20, 2021, 11:39:03 AM
My state only checks you at the registration stage with their database, but then the data you give them on vax day has to match the database. I suppose you could trade your information and or someone could steal it and then get a vaccine, but it seems like a lot of effort for something you'd be able to get soon anyway, most likely. At this point, we're only at "mass" vaccination sites, though some of those probably only vaccinated 100 people a day (rural area). I think once we get to kids, there will be bigger vaccination sites.
I doubt we'll get to pharmacies until after the first pass through of the entire population.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Harlow2 on March 20, 2021, 08:53:28 PM
Even people who meet the state eligibility categories are getting October dates here.  N of one, and no of. 2  a couple of ekes ago for august
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 20, 2021, 09:22:33 PM
Quote from: Harlow2 on March 20, 2021, 08:53:28 PM
Even people who meet the state eligibility categories are getting October dates here.  N of one, and no of. 2  a couple of ekes ago for august
Holy cow, Harlow!  Is this in a US state, or somewhere else?!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: PScientist on March 20, 2021, 10:59:41 PM
Student-facing higher education employees became eligible in my state on Friday, and my employer is having an on-site vaccination clinic on Monday.  That must be one of the best things our administration has ever arranged.  I made an early-morning appointment for it, and, of course, there is a winter storm warning out now for a level of snow on Sunday night that would typically lead to a delayed campus opening.  There are times that you really don't want a snow day!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: OneMoreYear on March 21, 2021, 08:22:20 AM
SO and I are now eligible in our state due to age. However, we both have had COVID recently. Now, there seems to be a debate here about whether we should get vaccinated. SO's provider does not think he needs to get vaccinated because he had COVID. I am still having residual fatigue and brain fog symptoms, and my provider thinks I should wait to be vaccinated for 90 days after my symptoms remit.

ETA: I just got my COVID test results (I retested so I could return to work (my position is hybrid)), and I'm still testing positive 3 weeks after exposure. Crap. Theoretically, I don't have to quarantine anymore, but I think I need to test negative to return.

PScientist--that is good news for you and your employer! Hope the snow does not mess things up,
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Harlow2 on March 22, 2021, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: namazu on March 20, 2021, 09:22:33 PM
Quote from: Harlow2 on March 20, 2021, 08:53:28 PM
Even people who meet the state eligibility categories are getting October dates here.  N of one, and no of. 2  a couple of ekes ago for august
Holy cow, Harlow!  Is this in a US state, or somewhere else?!

My state in the mid Atlantic. Surely it will be revised
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 23, 2021, 06:44:14 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 20, 2021, 11:39:03 AM
My state only checks you at the registration stage with their database, but then the data you give them on vax day has to match the database. I suppose you could trade your information and or someone could steal it and then get a vaccine, but it seems like a lot of effort for something you'd be able to get soon anyway, most likely. At this point, we're only at "mass" vaccination sites, though some of those probably only vaccinated 100 people a day (rural area). I think once we get to kids, there will be bigger vaccination sites.
I doubt we'll get to pharmacies until after the first pass through of the entire population.

The local dynamics are so weird and opaque. Where I am (major metro area in sunbelt) it suddenly became quite easy to get an appointment for people eligible and pharmacies seem to have lots of availability. In the macro sense, its all going very well and lots of people are getting shots, but man is it confusing.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on March 23, 2021, 07:23:32 PM
Maryland will have 6 more mass vaccination sites:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/03/maryland-coronavirus-update-march-23/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/03/maryland-coronavirus-update-march-23/)
From WTOP Radio online (3/23/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 23, 2021, 08:37:20 PM
Got shot #1 today (Pfizer).  Very grateful.  Signed up to participate in a vaccine-related research study with my child.  (But got the vaccine on account of my age, not study participation.)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 24, 2021, 06:19:38 AM
Now this is a bit odd.  I was just going over my appointment information for my shot on Friday when I got an e-mail reminder about it.  The e-mail said that my time slot was 15 minutes before the one I had been given in the first place.  What caused the variation?  Who knows!  I'll be sure to get there earlier than planned.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 24, 2021, 08:28:20 AM
I have no underlying conditions and I'm well under 60.  I said I'd get the vaccine when my employer offered it as an easy drive-through like they do for flu shots.

Yesterday morning, they sent an email poll regarding getting a jab on Thursday. 

Yesterday evening, the first email was an appointment time for Thursday morning and the second email was my manager approving moving/cancelling any meetings because we should all keep our scheduled appointments on Thursday to be good citizens.

It's looking good here in the hinterlands.


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ab_grp on March 24, 2021, 08:38:09 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 24, 2021, 06:19:38 AM
Now this is a bit odd.  I was just going over my appointment information for my shot on Friday when I got an e-mail reminder about it.  The e-mail said that my time slot was 15 minutes before the one I had been given in the first place.  What caused the variation?  Who knows!  I'll be sure to get there earlier than planned.

My "dose group" has our second appointment 30 minutes later than the first one.  I'm not sure if it's to keep dose 1 people in one set of slots and dose 2 in a different one, or if the slots just worked out that way.  I hope it's better organized at the later time, since our initial slot was the first of the day and not great.  We also got a card with one date for the second shot and a text/email from DOH with a date the day before that but were told to follow what the DOH says.  It would be nice to have more consistent instructions.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 24, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
My state is in the lower end of the vaccination rates. However, the news last night indicated that starting Monday Any adult (and anyone over 16 for one of the vaccines) are now clear to register. I dont know if that is statewide or just our area of the state because we have a vaccination hub. 

My 2 week period of post vaccine 2 protection ends Saturday, so I should be fully protected soon. 

Hopefully, we have plenty of vaccine available to support the expanded eligibility criteria!  Being permitted to get the shot and being ABLE to schedule to Get the shot are 2 different things!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Morden on March 24, 2021, 03:52:37 PM
QuoteMy state is in the lower end of the vaccination rates. However, the news last night indicated that starting Monday Any adult (and anyone over 16 for one of the vaccines) are now clear to register.

Wow. In my province, we're still in the 65+ range. After that, it's people with particular health conditions.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on March 24, 2021, 06:41:31 PM
Texas has decreed that anyone 18 or older (16 for one shot) is eligible for vaccine starting Monday. State health department is encouraging providers to vaccinate people age 80 or over "even if they show up without appointment", which makes me wonder how many 80+ residents haven't been vaccinated. Texas has also said that hubs can't require proof of citizenship or residency.

I suspect Texas decided to quit specifying eligibility because someone got tired of being pressured to make this group or that a priority. Since they were using honor system on eligibility, the eligibility rules weren't being strictly followed anyway. It's still hard to get an appointment, although it's improving.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 25, 2021, 07:43:55 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 24, 2021, 08:28:20 AM
I have no underlying conditions and I'm well under 60.  I said I'd get the vaccine when my employer offered it as an easy drive-through like they do for flu shots.

Yesterday morning, they sent an email poll regarding getting a jab on Thursday. 

Yesterday evening, the first email was an appointment time for Thursday morning and the second email was my manager approving moving/cancelling any meetings because we should all keep our scheduled appointments on Thursday to be good citizens.

It's looking good here in the hinterlands.

Got the first shot this morning.  It was a really smooth drive-through process.  A couple ibuprofen has fixed my sore arm.  Back to work!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mythbuster on March 25, 2021, 08:23:37 AM
Florida has declared everyone 40+ eligible starting Monday. Everyone 18+ is eligible starting April 5.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: histchick on March 25, 2021, 11:39:10 AM
My FIL in New Jersey (metropolitan area, near major university), still can't find an appointment within fifty miles of his home.  My BIL has looked, my husband has looked, I've looked.  Not a thing.  They've been available for his age group for at least a month now. 

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 25, 2021, 11:49:02 AM
That's odd because New Jersey has one of the highest completely vaccinated rates.

My parents in New York had a far off appointment so went into a nearby pharmacy and asked for appointments closer in time and space. They had them. My parents are in their 80's though.


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 25, 2021, 11:50:07 AM
Quote from: histchick on March 25, 2021, 11:39:10 AM
My FIL in New Jersey (metropolitan area, near major university), still can't find an appointment within fifty miles of his home.  My BIL has looked, my husband has looked, I've looked.  Not a thing.  They've been available for his age group for at least a month now.
That's frustrating and a shame.  :( 
Have you (or spouse, or FIL) joined one of the Facebook groups that reports open slots?  People I know have had luck getting appointments that way when they struck out otherwise.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on March 25, 2021, 12:51:45 PM
Quote from: histchick on March 25, 2021, 11:39:10 AM
My FIL in New Jersey (metropolitan area, near major university), still can't find an appointment within fifty miles of his home.  My BIL has looked, my husband has looked, I've looked.  Not a thing.  They've been available for his age group for at least a month now.

Sorry to hear that.  Have you looked online for tips and tricks, such as Facebook that namazu notes?  Is he near a Rite Aid?  A month ago, Rite Aid was loading new appointments between 11:30 p.m. and midnight, so you had to be sitting at computer ready to use their site by 11:40 p.m.  Not sure of current situation.

Maybe try notifications like these:  https://twitter.com/nj_vaccine  Not sure if this one is good or not, just a sample.  Sadly, there's a science to securing an appointment in some communities.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 25, 2021, 12:58:43 PM
I found that checking for CVS appointments at 6am was productive. They went quickly too.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: peitho on March 25, 2021, 02:10:33 PM
In my area, Walgreen's is quietly vaccinating, in that they are not advertising, but if you go online, you can sign up and get pricked. The U had had a few clinics, but appointment s never seen to be available.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 25, 2021, 02:18:07 PM
I did find out that my state went from more or less ONLY mass vaccination sites to quietly adding some pharmacies in or near larger cities. I already have a mass vax appointment, but I know this will make it more convenient for some in my area (though I don't think our pharmacies have the vax yet).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 26, 2021, 07:34:10 AM
Got my first shot (Pfizer) today.  Apart from some confusion in signage out front (It said go back to your car and call in, so I did--only to be told to walk right on in) it was impressively well organized.  I was in and out in little more than half an hour.  I recognized one of the staff, whom I'm sure did much of the organizational work, and told her they were doing a great job.  In a bit I plan to e-mail the director of the hospital and tell him good job as well.

I barely even felt it.  We'll see what happens with the second dose on the 16th.

They even had swag!  I got a bag containing a Frisbee, a pair of good ink pens, and an "I got vaccinated today" sticker.  One of the staff will probably be wanting those pens.  She can go get vaccinated and get her own!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: darkstarrynight on March 26, 2021, 11:23:56 AM
I got my second shot of Moderna on Wednesday. I did not sleep at all Wednesday night, had chills and sweats, drank a lot of water all night. Yesterday I was very fatigued and continued with sweats and chills all day. I drank a lot of gatorade and water. I tried to do an online stretch exercise class and five minutes in I was winded, so I just did some minor stretching on my own. I finally slept well last night, waking up once for water. I am still kind of sweaty today, but otherwise I feel so much better. I took my temperature yesterday morning and afternoon, and never got a fever. I am so grateful to have the vaccine over covid.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on March 26, 2021, 01:05:17 PM
I've spent a number of afternoons working in the vaccine clinic run by our health professions college.  It's been quite a pleasure - nearly everybody smiles, says "thank you".  Everybody is patient, they're polite, they wait in line, and nobody tries to bust up to the front.

Until yesterday.  I was scheduling 2nd vaccine doses since yesterday's clinic was a first dose clinic.  All is well until Vaccine Karen cannot make the date we are scheduling.  How about 2 days earlier?  Nope.  She wants a specific day. 

I tell her I can't give her that date since we'll be running a mass vaccination clinic elsewhere and are not taking appointments.

Whine whine whine.  My friend is coming that day and she said she can get a vaccine that day.  Why can't I????

I have no idea since I'm just a volunteer working with what I've been told.  This was apparently the wrong response.  More whining.  Finally found a work around after 10 minutes.  Meanwhile, the people in line behind her continue to be polite and patient.

Privileged much?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on March 27, 2021, 03:40:56 PM
FYI, Staples is laminating vaccine cards for free
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 27, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 27, 2021, 03:40:56 PM
FYI, Staples is laminating vaccine cards for free

Is that something that should be laminated?  Many records should not be laminated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on March 27, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 27, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 27, 2021, 03:40:56 PM
FYI, Staples is laminating vaccine cards for free

Is that something that should be laminated?  Many records should not be laminated.

There are articles being circulated about laminating the vaccination card, in order to keep it safe from constant use, because supposedly we will have to flash it a lot, in order to travel, enter sporting events, and other things like that.

I'm with you though. It's probably a bad idea because once the card becomes mandatory for accessing services and events, people will start counterfeiting them, and then laminated cards will no longer be considered valid cards. It can be tricky to remove the lamination.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on March 27, 2021, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: lightning on March 27, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 27, 2021, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on March 27, 2021, 03:40:56 PM
FYI, Staples is laminating vaccine cards for free

Is that something that should be laminated?  Many records should not be laminated.

There are articles being circulated about laminating the vaccination card, in order to keep it safe from constant use, because supposedly we will have to flash it a lot, in order to travel, enter sporting events, and other things like that.

I'm with you though. It's probably a bad idea because once the card becomes mandatory for accessing services and events, people will start counterfeiting them, and then laminated cards will no longer be considered valid cards. It can be tricky to remove the lamination.

The cards seem pretty easy to counterfeit already. So if the Anonymous They want a more secure proof of immunity, Someone will need to come up with a more reliable solution.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: darkstarrynight on March 27, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I would not laminate the card. It has lines below the second shot for other boosters, which we may have to get in less than a year. Just get a slip cover for it like for a baseball card to protect it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on March 28, 2021, 08:06:56 AM
New York State's Excelsior Pass, which can be downloaded on your phone or printed, provides proof of vaccination. The drawback is that the pass has to be renewed monthly as the expiration date is a month after signing up for the pass.
https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/excelsior-pass-frequently-asked-questions#:~:text=lengths%20of%20validity.-,The%20COVID%2D19%20Vaccination%20Pass%20is%20currently%20valid%20for%2030,third%20day%20after%20a%20test.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 28, 2021, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on March 27, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I would not laminate the card. It has lines below the second shot for other boosters, which we may have to get in less than a year. Just get a slip cover for it like for a baseball card to protect it.

Yes, I noticed those lines and, yes, an hour with a printer, stickers, and the card stock I already have seems sufficient to make dozens of new cards if one were inclined.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on March 28, 2021, 12:26:20 PM
Got #2 at 2PM EDT. Was told to drink plenty of liquids. I'm assuming wine counts. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on March 28, 2021, 12:29:20 PM
Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2021, 12:26:20 PM
Got #2 at 2PM EDT. Was told to drink plenty of liquids. I'm assuming wine counts. :-)
Congratulations, and cheers!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Tee_Bee on March 28, 2021, 08:14:43 PM
How about just laminating a copy of the original card? These aren't drivers' licenses, for cryin' out loud.



Quote from: polly_mer on March 28, 2021, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on March 27, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I would not laminate the card. It has lines below the second shot for other boosters, which we may have to get in less than a year. Just get a slip cover for it like for a baseball card to protect it.

Yes, I noticed those lines and, yes, an hour with a printer, stickers, and the card stock I already have seems sufficient to make dozens of new cards if one were inclined.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 04:54:08 AM
Quote from: Tee_Bee on March 28, 2021, 08:14:43 PM



Quote from: polly_mer on March 28, 2021, 08:14:17 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on March 27, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I would not laminate the card. It has lines below the second shot for other boosters, which we may have to get in less than a year. Just get a slip cover for it like for a baseball card to protect it.

Yes, I noticed those lines and, yes, an hour with a printer, stickers, and the card stock I already have seems sufficient to make dozens of new cards if one were inclined.

How about just laminating a copy of the original card? These aren't drivers' licenses, for cryin' out loud.

For crying out loud, even with vaccination, the default should still be staying home as much as possible, not going to enough places that you're worried about wear and tear on the freakin' card not at all designed for wear and tear.

If we were really going the vaccine passport route, then we would not be responsible for laminating anything ourselves.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 29, 2021, 05:11:40 AM
Part of the issue of whether we are going to become a lamination vaccination nation is how long we expect the pandemic to last. That's a matter of speculation. It is clear that it will last in some areas of the world longer than others. I haven't seen much serious estimation of the time line. So it seems entirely possible that we could still be doing some social distancing and mask wearing, and there could be travel restrictions, 2,3, 4, or more years from now.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 05:26:27 AM
Quote from: downer on March 29, 2021, 05:11:40 AM
Part of the issue of whether we are going to become a lamination vaccination nation is how long we expect the pandemic to last. That's a matter of speculation. It is clear that it will last in some areas of the world longer than others. I haven't seen much serious estimation of the time line. So it seems entirely possible that we could still be doing some social distancing and mask wearing, and there could be travel restrictions, 2,3, 4, or more years from now.

Yes.  And the question still becomes why we would be flashing a laminated card everywhere pretending to be normal, but just contributing to the spread (a 0.01% chance becomes a certainty when enough people do it regularly) instead of staying home as the default.

The logic simply doesn't work unless vaccination confers 100% protection to everything Covid and so vaccinated people can go back to normal.  Nothing I've read from credible scientific sources concludes anything like that.

Politically, people might want passports, but that's not a useful reality.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 05:30:43 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 04:54:08 AM

For crying out loud, even with vaccination, the default should still be staying home as much as possible, not going to enough places that you're worried about wear and tear on the freakin' card not at all designed for wear and tear.

If we were really going the vaccine passport route, then we would not be responsible for laminating anything ourselves.

Not going to be a good message if you want more people to get vaccinated. Nor does it really fit with the science. Covid spread is really over dispersed. Doing high risk things leads to a lot of spread. Low risk things, not much. I'm not planning to go hang out in any crowded indoor spaces after I'm fully vaccinated, but I am going to stop worrying about low risk things like going into the book store (masked) or going into the coffee shop to order when there's not a line and drinking it outside on their porch.* If you take something already quite low risk and reduce it by 75-90 percent, you can get it to background level risk. 

*Obviously all dependent on background virus levels. If there's another big surge in my area I might have to decide that while the risk of 5 minutes in the coffee shop or 20 minutes browsing in the store is still low, its gotten high enough that its not a good idea. On the other side if cases go way down this summer that could push even high risk activities down to being extremely low risk if you're vaccinated. And, of course, the value I place on things plays a big role. I'd love to go to a bookstore, but its not that important. Even if levels go up, I'm still going to visit vaccinated family with an unvaccinated kid, unless the CDC recs change based on new information or new risk.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 06:24:39 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 05:26:27 AM
Quote from: downer on March 29, 2021, 05:11:40 AM
Part of the issue of whether we are going to become a lamination vaccination nation is how long we expect the pandemic to last. That's a matter of speculation. It is clear that it will last in some areas of the world longer than others. I haven't seen much serious estimation of the time line. So it seems entirely possible that we could still be doing some social distancing and mask wearing, and there could be travel restrictions, 2,3, 4, or more years from now.

Yes.  And the question still becomes why we would be flashing a laminated card everywhere pretending to be normal, but just contributing to the spread (a 0.01% chance becomes a certainty when enough people do it regularly) instead of staying home as the default.

The logic simply doesn't work unless vaccination confers 100% protection to everything Covid and so vaccinated people can go back to normal.  Nothing I've read from credible scientific sources concludes anything like that.

Politically, people might want passports, but that's not a useful reality.

Poly doesn't read my posts (thank god) but she's made this point before and its a really bad one. Its basically the actual version of the straw-man that Covid deniers and minimizers have created where sensible policies to deal with an emergency are presented as "lockdown forever." So, of course, here we have the case for lockdown forever. Great...

Poly really seems to not understand COVID spread which is really over dispersed. Most people don't give Covid to anyone. But small numbers of people give it to a lot of people. Mostly this seems to be about having a person with high virus loads in crowded indoor spaces without masks.   This is actually a pretty persistent problem. Governments keep opening up bars and restaurants even though they are places where there are high levels of spread. At the same time, we really haven't done enough to try to encourage and create safer outdoor spaces.

The logic about vaccines is really crazy here "a 0.01% chance becomes a certainty when enough people do it regularly" That's just a stunningly incoherent  way to think about statistics and risk. Yes, some vaccinated people will get COVID. However, if you take a lot of really small numbers and add them up, you get a...relatively small total number. Vaccinated people taking reasonable precautions are not going to contribute much to COVID spread.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 06:43:42 AM
Quote from: downer on March 29, 2021, 05:11:40 AM
Part of the issue of whether we are going to become a lamination vaccination nation is how long we expect the pandemic to last. That's a matter of speculation. It is clear that it will last in some areas of the world longer than others. I haven't seen much serious estimation of the time line. So it seems entirely possible that we could still be doing some social distancing and mask wearing, and there could be travel restrictions, 2,3, 4, or more years from now.

Obviously this is all unclear, but from what I've read, COVID is not likely to go away, but its also going to stop being a pandemic and become endemic. There are actually some interesting theories that the other coronaviruses that circulate widely started off as pandemics. In particular there was a nasty 1880 outbreak that was always assumed to be flu, but might have been the emergence of one of those coronaviruses.

The speculation I read was that probably what happened with those previous coronaviruses and would happen with this one if there were no vaccines is that these things would just spread, almost everyone would get it repeatedly as some of the immune protection from getting it the first time wore off. However, longer lasting immunity does usually provide some protection so it would get less deadly as more people got it. Eventually, in about 7-10 years everyone would have been exposed 2-3 times and would have built up long lasting immunity. That immunity would keep a lot of people from getting the virus in the first place and if they did they would probably have pretty mild cold symptoms. The virus would still circulate widely among young kids who hadn't had the time to build up their immunity, but kids don't get nearly as sick as adults from this, so that wouldn't cause a ton of mortality or serious complications. By the time kids got to be 10 or so they too would have been exposed multiple times and have long lasting immunity.

Basically, vaccines can speed up this process and dramatically reduce the death toll both by protecting people from getting sick but also by dramatically reducing spread.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 29, 2021, 06:58:56 AM
Rutgers has already declared that students need to be vaccinated. https://www.rutgers.edu/news/rutgers-require-covid-19-vaccine-students
There are health and religious exemptions -- I will be interested to see what a religious exemption looks like.

Last fall, I raised the issue about whether employers will require staff to be vaccinated. One of my employers already made me sign something last year saying I would get vaccinated as a condition of employment. It will be interesting to see how trends develop. Who will be defending the rights of employers to require vaccinations? Neither party is likely to be enthusiastic about it, for different reasons.

Then there's the issue of fake vaccination certificates. Any idiot could produce a document that looks very much like the ones that people are getting and showing on Facebook. How is Rutgers going to verify that the documentation students provide is real?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 29, 2021, 07:33:20 AM
Quote from: downer on March 29, 2021, 06:58:56 AM
Rutgers has already declared that students need to be vaccinated. https://www.rutgers.edu/news/rutgers-require-covid-19-vaccine-students
There are health and religious exemptions -- I will be interested to see what a religious exemption looks like.

Last fall, I raised the issue about whether employers will require staff to be vaccinated. One of my employers already made me sign something last year saying I would get vaccinated as a condition of employment. It will be interesting to see how trends develop. Who will be defending the rights of employers to require vaccinations? Neither party is likely to be enthusiastic about it, for different reasons.

Then there's the issue of fake vaccination certificates. Any idiot could produce a document that looks very much like the ones that people are getting and showing on Facebook. How is Rutgers going to verify that the documentation students provide is real?

1. It is already well established law with other vaccines that schools/universities can require vaccinations for students (and most do) and that employers can do so if it impacts the ability to safely do the job (e.g., medical settings). As soon as the vaccines have full rather than emergency use authorization, I fully expect the same to apply.

2. There are secure vaccine passports in the works (already in use in some countries)-- the record card is not meant to be used for that.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Cheerful on March 29, 2021, 07:41:30 AM
So much speculation in recent posts.  Nobody knows what happens next week let alone a few months from now.

Unrelated to my comment above:
Quote from: Puget on March 29, 2021, 07:33:20 AM
As soon as the vaccines have full rather than emergency use authorization, I fully expect the same to apply.

How soon do you think full FDA authorization of Covid vaccines will happen?  I'm not ready to judge people who don't want to get a vaccine until that happens and not sure how I'll feel after.  I want to see the data.  The only way to get reliable, valid data is to let time pass.  But Americans can't behave on Covid matters, so....

Carrying cards around and having vaccine apps on phones is sounding more like Big Brother.  We don't do those things for flu shots.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
Quote from: downer on March 29, 2021, 06:58:56 AM
Rutgers has already declared that students need to be vaccinated. https://www.rutgers.edu/news/rutgers-require-covid-19-vaccine-students
There are health and religious exemptions -- I will be interested to see what a religious exemption looks like.

Last fall, I raised the issue about whether employers will require staff to be vaccinated. One of my employers already made me sign something last year saying I would get vaccinated as a condition of employment. It will be interesting to see how trends develop. Who will be defending the rights of employers to require vaccinations? Neither party is likely to be enthusiastic about it, for different reasons.

Then there's the issue of fake vaccination certificates. Any idiot could produce a document that looks very much like the ones that people are getting and showing on Facebook. How is Rutgers going to verify that the documentation students provide is real?

They probably aren't, but the number of people who are going to give their school a fake vaccine certificate is a lot smaller than the number of people who are going to decide not to get vaccinated if it isn't mandatory. The good thing about herd immunity is that you don't actually need everyone to be vaccinated. If you have a campus where 90 percent of students are vaccinated, you aren't going to get much spread.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 29, 2021, 07:46:34 AM
Yes, it is legal to require vaccines of students and employees. That doesn't mean there won't be pushback. 

I hadn't seen the news about the NY vaccine passport. There's a info-filled USA Today article about the Excelsior Pass. I admire the optimism that having an app will rule out fakery. But it will definitely make it more difficult.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/03/26/covid-vaccine-passports-new-york-first-vaccination-proof-system/6976009002/

Interesting to see that fake certificates have been circulating widely already.

What's the federal government doing? Will each state have its own system?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 29, 2021, 08:14:24 AM
I think its reasonable to assume we'll go back in forth with "opening up" (% of stadia that can be occupied, full opening of public schools) and "pulling back" as there are surges. Probably the surges will weaken over time, but with uncertainty over when everyone will be vaccinated (that is, who wants to be), with variants and such around, its hard to predict when, if ever, things will get back to "normal." The question of "should" people travel  or attend concerts and such will eventually boil down to personal risk tolerance because the threats will eventually be low enough that the government in just about ant city or state won't want to get involved. I can say that I personally think people are jumping the gun a bit in assuming this "back to normal" will occur in 3-6 months rather than 1-2 years.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 01:12:30 PM
One of the most annoying and frightening aspects is current discussion of personal risks by random members of the public instead of community risk from experts.

We're still in community risk for many undesirable things that aren't death.  Neglect of that reality by supposedly educated people is one way that academics undermine their own credibility.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 29, 2021, 01:25:31 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 01:12:30 PM
One of the most annoying and frightening aspects is current discussion of personal risks by random members of the public instead of community risk from experts.

We're still in community risk for many undesirable things that aren't death.  Neglect of that reality by supposedly educated people is one way that academics undermine their own credibility.

What exactly do you think should happen Polly? I'm all for continued precautions for the next few months until everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been, but it sounds like you don't think things should open back up even after that, until what point exactly? There is every indication that this coronavirus, like others, is going to be endemic, so we're not going to get to zero cases. Social distancing forever is simply not realistic-- it may work for you (and that's a choice you can certainly make if it does), but people are barely doing it now and certainly aren't going to keep doing so after vaccination, and there is no way to make them. So we have to make decisions that mitigate risk within the realm of what is feasible while balancing other societal and personal needs.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 29, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
All I can say is that I certainly see the community risk. For that reason, I have started with my vaccinations, and hope everyone else does the same when they can. I hope that masking and social distancing continue for a few months if not a year or more, but I have the feeling most states that haven't already repealed these restrictions will do so during the summer, barring some unforeseen gigantic surge.

But there isn't going to be the will to continue this right up to the point of statistically proven herd immunity, which is likely to be at least a year from now, if ever. That doesn't mean that the concerns aren't valid, just that I think what you will be able to convince even the risk averse to do for mitigation will decrease dramatically in the next few months.

I can't say much more because I'm not an immunologist. If you think they are full of crud, take it up with them.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 29, 2021, 01:12:30 PM
One of the most annoying and frightening aspects is current discussion of personal risks by random members of the public instead of community risk from experts.

We're still in community risk for many undesirable things that aren't death.  Neglect of that reality by supposedly educated people is one way that academics undermine their own credibility.

I pay attention to lots of experts who certainly are concerned about community risk but they aren't proposing anything like what you are. I've seen nothing but endorsement of the CDC recommendations, for example about what vaccinated people can do.

Speaking of, this just came out today.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7013e3.htm?s_cid=mm7013e3_w#T2_down

90 percent reductions in all infection with regular testing of people regardless of symptoms. That doesn't mean people should get vaccinated and run out to a bar, but it does mean that it dramatically reduces both the personal and the community risk.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on March 29, 2021, 02:43:35 PM
New York will be vaccinating people as young as 30. Scheduling appointments starts tomorrow. People between 16-29 can start scheduling appointments from April 6 onward.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-new-yorkers-30-years-age-and-older-will-be-eligible-receive-covid-19

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pink_ on March 29, 2021, 04:26:51 PM
I read today on CNN that the Biden administration is developing a vaccine passport app based on the NY version.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 29, 2021, 04:55:42 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 29, 2021, 01:38:57 PM


That doesn't mean that the concerns aren't valid, just that I think what you will be able to convince even the risk averse to do for mitigation will decrease dramatically in the next few months.


I mean the costs are really high. Its been reasonable to ask people to bear them as long as the risks are also high. You can't reasonably ask people to keep dealing with the same costs when their role in spreading the virus is going to be drastically reduced and hopefully the overall spread will be dramatically reduced.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on March 30, 2021, 07:39:51 AM
Our local hospital is scheduling another vaccination clinic next week.  I hope good word-of-mouth from the one last week will encourage others to use it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 30, 2021, 08:08:59 AM
Talking of pushback to Biden vaccine passport, this just in:
Marjorie Taylor Greene says that a vaccine passport is "Biden's Mark of the Beast" and that any company the requires one is engaging in "corporate communism."

I won't link to the video.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on March 30, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Here I thought that your Social Security Number was the 'mark of the beast?'

What is the purpose of the 'passport'?  IS it more literally a travel document ?

Is it instead an "I dont have to wear a mask" document? 

I mean I dont particularly want to go to a movie, especially a crowded one without a mask, but I didnt like to go to crowded movies anyway.  I am not a gym rat, but a cloth mask isnt going to keep you from working out, even on an elliptical machine.  (an N95 mask might slow you down, but a cloth mask?

My local grocery store doesnt enforce its mask requirement now, I dont see that they are going to require me to carry a cell phone to show I have a vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: clean on March 30, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Here I thought that your Social Security Number was the 'mark of the beast?'

What is the purpose of the 'passport'?  IS it more literally a travel document ?

Is it instead an "I dont have to wear a mask" document? 

I mean I dont particularly want to go to a movie, especially a crowded one without a mask, but I didnt like to go to crowded movies anyway.  I am not a gym rat, but a cloth mask isnt going to keep you from working out, even on an elliptical machine.  (an N95 mask might slow you down, but a cloth mask?

My local grocery store doesnt enforce its mask requirement now, I dont see that they are going to require me to carry a cell phone to show I have a vaccine.

I think it would more likely be about things like plane travel. I guess you could imagine large events like conferences requiring proof of vaccination? Until cases are way down, you don't really want people to not wear masks if they are in crowded spaces, especially indoors, around lots of people who may or may not be vaccinated.

The idea of working out with a mask seems pretty terrible to me, but I think that's just one of those things where people just differ. When I get hot, I find masks really uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on March 30, 2021, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: clean on March 30, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Here I thought that your Social Security Number was the 'mark of the beast?'

What is the purpose of the 'passport'?  IS it more literally a travel document ?

Is it instead an "I dont have to wear a mask" document? 

I mean I dont particularly want to go to a movie, especially a crowded one without a mask, but I didnt like to go to crowded movies anyway.  I am not a gym rat, but a cloth mask isnt going to keep you from working out, even on an elliptical machine.  (an N95 mask might slow you down, but a cloth mask?

My local grocery store doesnt enforce its mask requirement now, I dont see that they are going to require me to carry a cell phone to show I have a vaccine.

I think it would more likely be about things like plane travel. I guess you could imagine large events like conferences requiring proof of vaccination? Until cases are way down, you don't really want people to not wear masks if they are in crowded spaces, especially indoors, around lots of people who may or may not be vaccinated.

The idea of working out with a mask seems pretty terrible to me, but I think that's just one of those things where people just differ. When I get hot, I find masks really uncomfortable.

In Europe they are being used for travel.

In Israel they are being used to permit entry to crowded indoor spaces such as performance venues, movies, nightclubs/bars, etc. This has apparently been quite effective in getting young people to get vaccinated-- I bet the same would be true in the US. I like this better than paying people (which might backfire) because it is a natural reward/consequence.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: Puget on March 30, 2021, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 09:48:01 AM
Quote from: clean on March 30, 2021, 08:35:35 AM
Here I thought that your Social Security Number was the 'mark of the beast?'

What is the purpose of the 'passport'?  IS it more literally a travel document ?

Is it instead an "I dont have to wear a mask" document? 

I mean I dont particularly want to go to a movie, especially a crowded one without a mask, but I didnt like to go to crowded movies anyway.  I am not a gym rat, but a cloth mask isnt going to keep you from working out, even on an elliptical machine.  (an N95 mask might slow you down, but a cloth mask?

My local grocery store doesnt enforce its mask requirement now, I dont see that they are going to require me to carry a cell phone to show I have a vaccine.

I think it would more likely be about things like plane travel. I guess you could imagine large events like conferences requiring proof of vaccination? Until cases are way down, you don't really want people to not wear masks if they are in crowded spaces, especially indoors, around lots of people who may or may not be vaccinated.

The idea of working out with a mask seems pretty terrible to me, but I think that's just one of those things where people just differ. When I get hot, I find masks really uncomfortable.

In Europe they are being used for travel.

In Israel they are being used to permit entry to crowded indoor spaces such as performance venues, movies, nightclubs/bars, etc. This has apparently been quite effective in getting young people to get vaccinated-- I bet the same would be true in the US. I like this better than paying people (which might backfire) because it is a natural reward/consequence.

Entirely based on random twitter conversations, but apparently actual checking is pretty minimal.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 04:15:46 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 29, 2021, 01:38:57 PM
I can't say much more because I'm not an immunologist. If you think they are full of crud, take it up with them.

I don't personally know any immunologists.

I do.personally know epidemiologists and related experts in risk assessment and making decisions with limited information. That's  "know" as in "hey, it's Thursday so we have a social Zoom meeting to chat and catch up", not " "know" as in "I recognize that name when quoted in the mass media".

I don't know all the answers.

I do know that I trust the people I personally know who are doing the science, running scenarios, and advising states/nation states/international health organizations over any " I have a completely unrelated PhD and a newspaper subscription".  When the people who actually know say it's time, then I will believe it's time.

The fact that current data feeding into the models mean sufficient people are contributing in a bad way doesn't mean we all give up.  It just means those of us who know remain angry at bad choices by people who insist they are good critical thinkers, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yeah, a year is still what the experts I know and trust predict.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on March 30, 2021, 04:53:14 PM
A year makes sense because although it looks like we're vaccinating quickly, if you extrapolate to the full population, it would take over a year. It could be a little less due to single dose vaccines and quickened pacing, but might be worse due to variants, delay in child vaccination, etc. There will be a lot of political pressure , not just from cranks, to increasingly act normally before that. I'm not suggesting we give in, but
Just be aware.

A lot of us know immunologists, etc. after all, we work at colleges and universities, labs, etc..
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 07:45:44 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on March 30, 2021, 04:15:46 PM


I do.personally know epidemiologists and related experts in risk assessment and making decisions with limited information. That's  "know" as in "hey, it's Thursday so we have a social Zoom meeting to chat and catch up", not " "know" as in "I recognize that name when quoted in the mass media".

I don't know all the answers.

I do know that I trust the people I personally know who are doing the science, running scenarios, and advising states/nation states/international health organizations over any " I have a completely unrelated PhD and a newspaper subscription".  When the people who actually know say it's time, then I will believe it's time.



Can we all agree that is is some idiotic nonsense? Does Poly think that experts give her some super secret special information that the rest of us with a Twitter account don't have access to? Or that they don't bother sharing their beliefs in the media, but only talk to their special friends. Enough already. We get it, you're unpleasant.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 08:15:13 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on March 30, 2021, 04:53:14 PM
A year makes sense because although it looks like we're vaccinating quickly, if you extrapolate to the full population, it would take over a year. It could be a little less due to single dose vaccines and quickened pacing, but might be worse due to variants, delay in child vaccination, etc. There will be a lot of political pressure , not just from cranks, to increasingly act normally before that. I'm not suggesting we give in, but
Just be aware.


There's a lot of room in between, "this is all over" and "life has to look like it has for the last year for another year."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: arcturus on March 31, 2021, 05:27:53 PM
I got my first shot a few days ago. No problems other than pain at the injection site (as expected). Now, however, I have pain at the equivalent location on my other arm. What gives? No one touched that arm...is this sympathetic pain, like the other arm is feeling left out?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on March 31, 2021, 06:36:22 PM
Quote from: arcturus on March 31, 2021, 05:27:53 PM
I got my first shot a few days ago. No problems other than pain at the injection site (as expected). Now, however, I have pain at the equivalent location on my other arm. What gives? No one touched that arm...is this sympathetic pain, like the other arm is feeling left out?

Huh, I had some of the same today. Perhaps we've been favoring our sore arm a bit and putting extra stress on the other.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on March 31, 2021, 06:40:17 PM
I had the same after a few hours.

It was the same with the flu shot.

I googled it but didn't find an explanation.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on March 31, 2021, 08:20:30 PM
Second shot today, and no sign of side effects. My arm even feels fine. They say the next day is the doozy though.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 01, 2021, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: downer on March 31, 2021, 06:40:17 PM
I had the same after a few hours.

It was the same with the flu shot.

I googled it but didn't find an explanation.

I saw some people who were in the trials reporting they had pretty severe reactions to the shot, but later found it was a placebo. Apparently this is a thing and is called the "nocebo effect." Not exactly the same, but seems in the same category?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on April 01, 2021, 06:01:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 01, 2021, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: downer on March 31, 2021, 06:40:17 PM
I had the same after a few hours.

It was the same with the flu shot.

I googled it but didn't find an explanation.

I saw some people who were in the trials reporting they had pretty severe reactions to the shot, but later found it was a placebo. Apparently this is a thing and is called the "nocebo effect." Not exactly the same, but seems in the same category?

For sure, there's a massive mind/body interaction when you perceive that you have had a medical intervention. (The effects of antidepressants are largely indistinguishable from placebo.)

But that particular effect, feeling a pain in the opposite deltoid from the injection site, is very distinctive. I'm not sure how widely experienced it is. Obviously it isn't a big deal, but it is striking. I'm tempted to suggest it is neurological, except I don't really think that means anything except that it isn't sociological.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: arcturus on April 01, 2021, 06:16:06 AM
Quote from: downer on April 01, 2021, 06:01:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 01, 2021, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: downer on March 31, 2021, 06:40:17 PM
I had the same after a few hours.

It was the same with the flu shot.

I googled it but didn't find an explanation.

I saw some people who were in the trials reporting they had pretty severe reactions to the shot, but later found it was a placebo. Apparently this is a thing and is called the "nocebo effect." Not exactly the same, but seems in the same category?

For sure, there's a massive mind/body interaction when you perceive that you have had a medical intervention. (The effects of antidepressants are largely indistinguishable from placebo.)

But that particular effect, feeling a pain in the opposite deltoid from the injection site, is very distinctive. I'm not sure how widely experienced it is. Obviously it isn't a big deal, but it is striking. I'm tempted to suggest it is neurological, except I don't really think that means anything except that it isn't sociological.
Yes, I have heard of the placebo effect, and I can see how that could have adverse medical consequences. This (pain on the other arm at the same location as the actual shot), however, is not anything that I had previously heard of happening, so it definitely was not a nocebo effect for me. As downer says, it is a very distinct feeling. And, for me, a little unnerving as it really did feel like it was at the symmetric location on the other side, with the same type of (minor) pain.

ETA: This may be more akin to amputees still experiencing pain/itching on the missing limb. The brain just gets mixed up some how.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on April 01, 2021, 09:39:54 AM
Quote from: downer on April 01, 2021, 06:01:14 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 01, 2021, 05:47:55 AM
Quote from: downer on March 31, 2021, 06:40:17 PM
I had the same after a few hours.

It was the same with the flu shot.

I googled it but didn't find an explanation.

I saw some people who were in the trials reporting they had pretty severe reactions to the shot, but later found it was a placebo. Apparently this is a thing and is called the "nocebo effect." Not exactly the same, but seems in the same category?

For sure, there's a massive mind/body interaction when you perceive that you have had a medical intervention. (The effects of antidepressants are largely indistinguishable from placebo.)

But that particular effect, feeling a pain in the opposite deltoid from the injection site, is very distinctive. I'm not sure how widely experienced it is. Obviously it isn't a big deal, but it is striking. I'm tempted to suggest it is neurological, except I don't really think that means anything except that it isn't sociological.

I felt pain in both arms. I was feeling pain in the other arm that didn't get the shot. THAT was weird.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on April 01, 2021, 09:50:23 AM
Referred pain from an affected region to an unaffected one is pretty common across the board.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: wellfleet on April 01, 2021, 09:56:19 AM
I got my second Pfizer dose late Monday afternoon. Tuesday morning, I felt mostly ok, but I soon got queasy and stayed that way all day, accompanied by the "truck hit me--must be getting flu" thing by early evening. Wednesday, I was fine, which was a relief!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 01, 2021, 09:56:32 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 01, 2021, 09:50:23 AM
Referred pain from an affected region to an unaffected one is pretty common across the board.

And seems to be particularly around the chest and upper arm area? Whenever I get heartburn my arm hurts, which alarmed me before I found out that the arm pain as a symptom of heart attack is just because of referred pain, but can just as easily come from other causes in the same area of the body.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on April 01, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
Well, its seems a better explanation than somehow an injury to one arm injured the other arm!

Maybe  experts out there have a more clear explanation for these sorts of symptoms?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 01, 2021, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 01, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
Well, its seems a better explanation than somehow an injury to one arm injured the other arm!

Maybe  experts out there have a more clear explanation for these sorts of symptoms?

Neuro person but not a pain expert--
I can think of two explanations:
1. At the level of the spinal cord, you have sensory nerves from the same area of each side of the body coming into the same area of spinal cord, so there could be cross-talk there leading to perception of pain in the same area on the opposite side.
2. At the level of the brain, there are always strong connections between homologous areas in each hemisphere via the corpus callosum, so there may also be some cross-talk among areas of the cortical pain network in each hemisphere.

A quick search suggests that inflammatory processes are believed to play a role, so that may explain why it is happening with the vaccine (which is designed to activate such a response, so think of it as a good sign you're probably responding to the vaccine!)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: PScientist on April 01, 2021, 06:41:06 PM
So I had mentioned the possibility of getting vaccinated two Mondays ago, with a worry about snow.  The snow ended up being limited to a few inches, so...the shot happened on schedule.  Moderna, first dose.   I had a sore upper arm for about two days, and a nonstop runny nose for the first day (not on the list of expected side effects, but ... it happened).  I thought it was over after that.

Fast forward to yesterday.  For the first time since getting the vaccine, 10 days later, I worked out on a rowing machine.  That was the first intense use my deltoid muscles had gotten.  Shortly afterwards, the sore upper arm, only on the vaccinated side, came back at full intensity, and lasted for a full day.  That surprised me -- it was almost as if some of the vaccine had been hanging out in a "dead space" somewhere in the muscle, if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on April 01, 2021, 07:32:57 PM
Maryland and Virginia are expanding vaccination preregistration. The dates are different in the two states:
In Maryland:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/maryland-coronavirus-update-april-1/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/maryland-coronavirus-update-april-1/)

In Virginia:
https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/northam-all-in-va-eligible-for-covid-19-vaccine-april-18/ (https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/northam-all-in-va-eligible-for-covid-19-vaccine-april-18/)
From WTOP Radio online (4/1/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on April 05, 2021, 02:07:29 AM
I was asked by a government agency medical person to send my vaccination completion document to their offices. Scanning the document [ the vaccinations were done by non-governmental enterprise] was to be the means of transmission. There is no photo on the "proof" to link the "actual me" to the submission. There seems to be a lot of data leaks nowadays. So, what is the harm potential to me or others?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 05, 2021, 07:45:15 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 01, 2021, 12:57:31 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on April 01, 2021, 10:10:38 AM
Well, its seems a better explanation than somehow an injury to one arm injured the other arm!

Maybe  experts out there have a more clear explanation for these sorts of symptoms?

Neuro person but not a pain expert--
I can think of two explanations:
1. At the level of the spinal cord, you have sensory nerves from the same area of each side of the body coming into the same area of spinal cord, so there could be cross-talk there leading to perception of pain in the same area on the opposite side.
2. At the level of the brain, there are always strong connections between homologous areas in each hemisphere via the corpus callosum, so there may also be some cross-talk among areas of the cortical pain network in each hemisphere.

I would have just said "crossed wires."  Seriously, though, this is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Tee_Bee on April 05, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Economizer on April 05, 2021, 02:07:29 AM
I was asked by a government agency medical person to send my vaccination completion document to their offices. Scanning the document [ the vaccinations were done by non-governmental enterprise] was to be the means of transmission. There is no photo on the "proof" to link the "actual me" to the submission. There seems to be a lot of data leaks nowadays. So, what is the harm potential to me or others?

I'm not persuaded that the data security issues are terribly worrying. The most sensitive data on the card seems to be one's date of birth. Given how much of our personal data are already floating around, this datum wouldn't be a big problem if it got loose, I think. I am open to being otherwise persuaded.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on April 05, 2021, 07:13:44 PM
DC Mayor Bowser announced an expansion for vaccine eligibility:
https://wtop.com/dc/2021/04/dc-coronavirus-update-april-5/ (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/04/dc-coronavirus-update-april-5/)
Also, restrictions will be relaxed starting May 1st.

In MD, mass vaccination sites will open tomorrow:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/md-to-open-mass-vaccination-sites-to-everyone-16-and-older-starting-tuesday/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/md-to-open-mass-vaccination-sites-to-everyone-16-and-older-starting-tuesday/)
Scroll past ad breaks to read the full article.

Posted on WTOP Radio online (4/5/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on April 05, 2021, 07:53:17 PM
Quote from: Tee_Bee on April 05, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Economizer on April 05, 2021, 02:07:29 AM
I was asked by a government agency medical person to send my vaccination completion document to their offices. Scanning the document [ the vaccinations were done by non-governmental enterprise] was to be the means of transmission. There is no photo on the "proof" to link the "actual me" to the submission. There seems to be a lot of data leaks nowadays. So, what is the harm potential to me or others?

I'm not persuaded that the data security issues are terribly worrying. The most sensitive data on the card seems to be one's date of birth. Given how much of our personal data are already floating around, this datum wouldn't be a big problem if it got loose, I think. I am open to being otherwise persuaded.
Can the entire document be recreated from the scan?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 07, 2021, 07:52:49 AM
My wife got the J&J yesterday. Sore arm for an hour or so, but otherwise no side effects so far.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 09, 2021, 05:42:53 PM
SO and I got our second dose of Moderna today.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on April 09, 2021, 05:50:30 PM
We vaccinated ~1100 in clinic today.  It makes me happy to see so many people believe that this disease is real and that the vaccine(s) are safe and effective.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on April 09, 2021, 06:50:22 PM
QuoteSO and I got our second dose of Moderna today.

QuoteWe vaccinated ~1100 in clinic today.  It makes me happy to see so many people believe that this disease is real and that the vaccine(s) are safe and effective.

how are you feeling?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 09, 2021, 07:16:57 PM
Quote from: clean on April 09, 2021, 06:50:22 PM
QuoteSO and I got our second dose of Moderna today.

QuoteWe vaccinated ~1100 in clinic today.  It makes me happy to see so many people believe that this disease is real and that the vaccine(s) are safe and effective.

how are you feeling?

We have sore arms, but that's it for now. It's only been 6 hours, so we'll see...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 09, 2021, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 09, 2021, 05:50:30 PM
We vaccinated ~1100 in clinic today.  It makes me happy to see so many people believe that this disease is real and that the vaccine(s) are safe and effective.

This is great! I talked with a student who had signed up for a vaccine, but changed her mind about it due to crap she saw on the news. Hopefully, she will go back. Our campus offers the vaccine, but I think there's a long waiting list.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on April 09, 2021, 07:34:14 PM
As of today, every faculty and staff member in my department has received at least one dose of vaccine. A few student workers have asked to swap hours for vaccine appointments.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 10, 2021, 06:15:32 AM
17 hours later....

SO has a fever around 101 deg. F and has body aches. I am currently ok for the moment.

Edit: 'I am currently ok' means that my arm still hurts from yesterday, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: cathwen on April 10, 2021, 08:21:09 AM
I got my second dose (Moderna) on Wednesday.  On Thursday, I came down with just about every single after-effect listed on the websites.  Fever of 103; headache; muscle and joint pain; dizziness; redness around the vaccination site; nausea.  I stayed in bed and due to the fever and joint/muscle pain, could barely move.  Getting up to go to the bathroom, I felt as though I was going to fall over.  (But I didn't.)

I was doing a lot better yesterday, and today I feel just about back to normal.

My husband didn't have any reaction at all other than a bit of soreness around the injection site. 

My daughters have all gotten their first shots, and so we are looking forward to a late spring/early summer reunion. 



Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on April 10, 2021, 09:24:34 AM
We're going for our second Moderna dose on Wednesday, and I've already got a lesson plan ready to throw on Blackboard for Thursday's class in case I have a reaction.  My arm still has a sore spot from the first shot on St. Patrick's Day; It doesn't ache or hurt all the time anymore, just when I touch it (but that level of pain only left about a week ago).  I usually don't have any problems with any kind of shots, but I want to be ready.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 10, 2021, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 10, 2021, 09:24:34 AM
We're going for our second Moderna dose on Wednesday, and I've already got a lesson plan ready to throw on Blackboard for Thursday's class in case I have a reaction.  My arm still has a sore spot from the first shot on St. Patrick's Day; It doesn't ache or hurt all the time anymore, just when I touch it (but that level of pain only left about a week ago).  I usually don't have any problems with any kind of shots, but I want to be ready.

Yeah, I've never had a reaction to anything before, but the second Moderna dose did get me. Fever of 103, chills so bad I couldn't stop shaking. Went away pretty quickly though.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Bbmaj7b5 on April 11, 2021, 05:25:51 AM
Had Moderna #2 about three weeks ago.

It seems like my reactions to the shots are attenuated but of longer duration than most experiences. I would still feel some effects two weeks out. The most immediate to #2 was fatigue, headaches, and a lovely evening of tinnitus-like symptoms.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 11, 2021, 09:17:53 AM
2nd Dose Update

SO is feeling much better. He no longer has body aches (he said if felt like his body was also on fire) or a fever.

I developed a low-grade (about 99 deg. F) fever yesterday and felt tired, but now it's gone and I'm feeling a little hyper.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ab_grp on April 11, 2021, 11:14:50 AM
I had my first dose of Pfizer a couple weeks ago with almost no side effects other than some fatigue and a sore arm for a day or two and a headache. 

My second dose was Thursday, and that one was worse (as expected).  I was pretty tired and out of it that day and felt dull.  The next day was the worst, as I felt really, really tired and developed a mild fever.  My eyes hurt, and my skin felt sensitive all over.  Yesterday I felt way better, though I apparently still had a bit of a fever, but I also developed a rash on my arm.  It is apparently nothing to worry about but somewhat rare from Pfizer and not having occurred after the first dose.  But this time I also had a tiny amount of bleeding at the injection site (from the injection itself, not afterward) and a bruise there, not sure if that's related.

My husband also had Pfizer and had no troubles except being tired enough to take a nap the following afternoon.  Unfortunately, he also seems to have some tinnitus that started after the second dose that hasn't gone away for a couple weeks.  Again, not sure if that is related.

Lots of different responses!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 12, 2021, 07:24:03 AM
My second dose is coming up Friday.  At the beginning of the work day.  I'll make sure not to schedule anything important in case I find myself having to go home due to side effects.

At church yesterday I heard of somebody who got his second dose and then caught COVID right afterward, before the immunity boost had had time to build up.  However, he had only a very mild case, so the vaccine still seems to have helped.  Still, what unfortunate timing!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on April 12, 2021, 10:07:37 AM
Perhaps the case was mild because he had the first dose nearly a month earlier!  Perhaps it was very fortunate timing of the first dose!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 12, 2021, 10:15:54 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 12, 2021, 07:24:03 AM
My second dose is coming up Friday.  At the beginning of the work day.  I'll make sure not to schedule anything important in case I find myself having to go home due to side effects.

At church yesterday I heard of somebody who got his second dose and then caught COVID right afterward, before the immunity boost had had time to build up.  However, he had only a very mild case, so the vaccine still seems to have helped.  Still, what unfortunate timing!

From my experience and others, seems like it usually is about 12 hours from shot to side effects. So, chances are you'll be ok at work that day, Of course, YMMV.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Larimar on April 12, 2021, 12:23:14 PM
Mr. Larimar and I just got back from getting our second shots. We have deliberately left our schedules clear tomorrow in case we get knocked over by the side effects. Not looking forward to that part, but it's a heck of a lot more preferable to catching the virus!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 12, 2021, 12:32:28 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 12, 2021, 10:15:54 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 12, 2021, 07:24:03 AM
My second dose is coming up Friday.  At the beginning of the work day.  I'll make sure not to schedule anything important in case I find myself having to go home due to side effects.

At church yesterday I heard of somebody who got his second dose and then caught COVID right afterward, before the immunity boost had had time to build up.  However, he had only a very mild case, so the vaccine still seems to have helped.  Still, what unfortunate timing!

From my experience and others, seems like it usually is about 12 hours from shot to side effects. So, chances are you'll be ok at work that day, Of course, YMMV.

That's more like what I'm expecting.  Which means I may have trouble making it in on Saturday.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: sinenomine on April 15, 2021, 05:31:32 PM
Just got an appointment for tomorrow for my first dose, which will mean the second dose will be during the annual spate of end of academic year professional development meetings. I'll have no regrets in having to miss some of them!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 16, 2021, 08:18:45 AM
Had my second dose not quite two hours ago.  So far no shoulder soreness or anything.  I asked one of the nurses how many people she said she would be sticking today.  She said about a hundred.  As before, people seemed to be in good spirits and all.  Except for the one guy who asked whether the nurse was concealing a baseball bat--because a few hours after his first dose he felt like his shoulder had been hit by one.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on April 16, 2021, 10:37:56 AM
2 days post-Pfizer, i can't even locate the site of the injection.  So far, so good.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: EdnaMode on April 16, 2021, 10:41:01 AM
I had my second Pfizer dose on Wednesday, absolutely no side effects yet, almost 48 hours later. A colleague who received his first and second doses with me, said he was rather tired on Thursday, I was tired, but that's my usual state these days, don't think I was in any way more tired than usual. I had some minor muscle pain at the injection sight with the first shot, and nothing with the second one.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Juvenal on April 16, 2021, 11:57:56 AM
So the stories seem to be: some have noticeable side effects, some have mild side effects, some have no side effects.  I do think that covers it.  It appears that whatever side effects you have/have not had, you are vaccinated now.  All good.

I had what I'd call "perhaps" a side effect after Pf#2, mild afternoon fatigue after morning jab.  Not sure if it was related.  After all, even w/o injections I can get tired in the afternoon...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Larimar on April 16, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
Moderna 2nd shots did knock both Mr. Larimar and me over the day after we got them. I could barely use my arm for about 30 hours, and we spent pretty much the whole day asleep. Since then my eczema has been itching at torturous levels. I haven't gotten much sleep. I just saw my dermatologist, and she thinks yes, it is because of the shot. She said she has seen a lot of this in the past 2 weeks. If you have eczema, beware the Moderna shot. I can't speak for the other kinds.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: permanent imposter on April 16, 2021, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: Larimar on April 16, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
Moderna 2nd shots did knock both Mr. Larimar and me over the day after we got them. I could barely use my arm for about 30 hours, and we spent pretty much the whole day asleep. Since then my eczema has been itching at torturous levels. I haven't gotten much sleep. I just saw my dermatologist, and she thinks yes, it is because of the shot. She said she has seen a lot of this in the past 2 weeks. If you have eczema, beware the Moderna shot. I can't speak for the other kinds.

Shoot, I have eczema, and my first Moderna shot already gave me a low-grade fever and fatigue that knocked me out for most of a day... getting that steroid cream ready!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on April 16, 2021, 08:14:15 PM
yeah, I got one. Pfizer. I was in no hurry, but my wife nudged me. If you ask me, young parents would get preference. People who have others depending on them for basic sustenance are what sustains the world. We old timers have had our day. Everything now is a bonus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: namazu on April 16, 2021, 09:52:52 PM
Got shot #2 (Pfizer) on Tuesday and hardly knew it.  (Hopefully my immune system did, though!)  My arm was conspicuously less sore than it has been with other recent vaccines I've had (flu shot, TDaP, etc.).

Spouse got shot #2 today (also Pfizer).  Will report back in a couple of days.

We intentionally staggered them so that at least one of us would be able to take care of the baby in the event of bad side effects.

Hopefully the trials in young kids will go well and the baby can get one safely and soonish.  We are participating in a study of antibody transfer through breastmilk, but of course won't get real-time personal results.

Among my immediate blood-relatives (parents in their 70s, sister, maternal aunt), only 1 person had day-ruining side effects from the Pfizer vaccine (fever, etc.).  The rest of us had very mild (sore arm, fatigue, chills lasting less than an hour) to no side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 17, 2021, 06:16:20 AM
Quote from: permanent imposter on April 16, 2021, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: Larimar on April 16, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
Moderna 2nd shots did knock both Mr. Larimar and me over the day after we got them. I could barely use my arm for about 30 hours, and we spent pretty much the whole day asleep. Since then my eczema has been itching at torturous levels. I haven't gotten much sleep. I just saw my dermatologist, and she thinks yes, it is because of the shot. She said she has seen a lot of this in the past 2 weeks. If you have eczema, beware the Moderna shot. I can't speak for the other kinds.

Shoot, I have eczema, and my first Moderna shot already gave me a low-grade fever and fatigue that knocked me out for most of a day... getting that steroid cream ready!

If it makes you feel any better, my mother has eczema, but had no itching problems after either dose of Moderna.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on April 17, 2021, 07:01:52 AM
ALHS didn't have any post-Moderna #2 effects.  I woke up during the night-after with chills and a rotten headache; by morning, the chills were gone, but the headache and fatigue lasted until around noon the next day (yesterday).  There's some brain fog still remaining today, too.  Again, though, better than getting sick.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 17, 2021, 07:23:26 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 17, 2021, 06:16:20 AM
Quote from: permanent imposter on April 16, 2021, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: Larimar on April 16, 2021, 02:59:05 PM
Moderna 2nd shots did knock both Mr. Larimar and me over the day after we got them. I could barely use my arm for about 30 hours, and we spent pretty much the whole day asleep. Since then my eczema has been itching at torturous levels. I haven't gotten much sleep. I just saw my dermatologist, and she thinks yes, it is because of the shot. She said she has seen a lot of this in the past 2 weeks. If you have eczema, beware the Moderna shot. I can't speak for the other kinds.

Shoot, I have eczema, and my first Moderna shot already gave me a low-grade fever and fatigue that knocked me out for most of a day... getting that steroid cream ready!

If it makes you feel any better, my mother has eczema, but had no itching problems after either dose of Moderna.

I don't have eczema, but both Moderna shots made my arm itch for weeks afterwards. Nothing too terrible, but weird.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on April 17, 2021, 07:04:44 PM
Starting tomorrow, VA residents 16 and up can make vaccine appointments:
https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/va-residents-16-and-older-will-be-able-to-schedule-vaccine-appointments-come-sunday/ (https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/04/va-residents-16-and-older-will-be-able-to-schedule-vaccine-appointments-come-sunday/)
Posted on WTOP Radio online (4/17/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 19, 2021, 07:16:23 AM
My second Pfizer dose ended up having no side effects other than the same arm soreness that happened the first time.  After three days, I figure I'm now in the clear on side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on April 19, 2021, 10:34:00 AM
Attendance at our vax clinics is starting to taper off.  My guess is that most of those desperate to receive a jab have already had 1 or 2.  We are now at the point of trying to convince those who are a bit more hesitant that the vaccine is still in their best interests.  If you have conversations with friends, family or co-workers who are on the fence, could you please tell them:

* Covid remains real.  People are still getting sick and still dying.

* Clinical testing for vaccines is extensive and ongoing.  The concerns that we have about clots with J&J & AZ vaccines are evidence that the system is working to ensure safety of the vaccines.

* The risk for a clot seems to be far far lower than the risk of dying and far lower than the risk of getting covid

* The side effects reported to date are annoying but usually last < 24 hours.  A mild fever and some muscle aches and pains are typical and are evidence that you have had an immune response to the vaccine - which is what we want.

* Even if you remain unconvinced that you need the vaccine or that it works, getting vaccinated is part of good citizenship and will result in getting back to some form of normal as quickly as possible.

* Get your medical advice from experts.  Dr. Facebook and Professor Twitter are frequently wrong.

Thanks fora.  We can all play a part in this pandemic, no matter how far removed from day to day clinical care we may be.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: PScientist on April 20, 2021, 06:52:26 AM
I got my second Moderna dose yesterday morning.  In contrast to the first dose, the sore upper arm didn't start immediately...it waited a few hours.  Then, last night, I had the most impressive chills I have ever experienced.  I turned up the thermostat by 5 degrees, put on an extra blanket, and wore two layers of clothes to bed, and I was still shivering.  No fever, though (whenever I measured my temperature, it was right at 98 degrees F), just the illusion of fever.  Then, this morning, getting out of bed was very difficult (my body just didn't want to move), but since I've been up and moving around a little, it's started to feel better.  So I am going to conclude that I probably have lots of antibodies now.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on April 20, 2021, 09:54:05 AM
Some of you have pointed out that it is legal for universities to require vaccinations of students.

But this weekend I heard of one prominent place that decided against requiring vaccinations because they were worried about lawsuits.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on April 20, 2021, 12:21:08 PM
This is the US.  There is virtually no connection between what is illegal and what you can be sued for.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on April 20, 2021, 02:18:10 PM
I would think the fact that the vaccines only have emergency use authorization would open the door to lawsuits (with or without actual merit).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on April 20, 2021, 03:23:31 PM
So are there any trends in which schools are requiring vaccination of studends and/or faculty? Public vs private? Red vs blue state?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AvidReader on April 20, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.

My university had a list of university members who would be willing to sprint to campus to take extra doses if people didn't show up for appointments. This might be just a Pfizer thing, but might also be worth enquiring about.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 20, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 20, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.

My university had a list of university members who would be willing to sprint to campus to take extra doses if people didn't show up for appointments. This might be just a Pfizer thing, but might also be worth enquiring about.

They did get another batch of doses and opened it to all students regardless of where they are living. I kind of feel like they should have included faculty and staff working on campus first over some of the students who are 100% remote still, but I can see how adjudicating that was too complicated. They did say they would let faculty and staff know tomorrow if there were any extra doses.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on April 20, 2021, 08:32:38 PM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on March 27, 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I would not laminate the card. It has lines below the second shot for other boosters, which we may have to get in less than a year. Just get a slip cover for it like for a baseball card to protect it.

I just found a great use for my old plastic conference badge holders. I can stick my CDC vaccine card in there. It provides protection for the card, but at the same time I can always pull it out of the holder for scrutiny if it ever becomes necessary. And, it still has the lanyard so I can wear the card, if that ever becomes necessary. I have probably 4 or 5 of these badge holders, probably more if I looked for them.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 20, 2021, 10:52:48 PM
*sigh*

Parents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

I can sense this is going to be an argument.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 21, 2021, 06:34:11 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 20, 2021, 10:52:48 PM
*sigh*
Parents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

I can sense this is going to be an argument.
Are you vaccinated yet?

From what you've written about your parents, it seems like it might best to just use the easily available excuse to avoid going to see them?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on April 21, 2021, 09:38:32 AM
QuoteParents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

"Mom.  Dad.  I love you very much but I just can not risk catching something and bringing it home to my  hubby who has several comorbidities.  Until you both  get vaccinated, and wait the required 2 weeks, I can not risk visiting you and taking the risk of catching anything from the travels (not to mention the airlines)."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 21, 2021, 10:06:54 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 20, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.

My university had a list of university members who would be willing to sprint to campus to take extra doses if people didn't show up for appointments. This might be just a Pfizer thing, but might also be worth enquiring about.

They did get another batch of doses and opened it to all students regardless of where they are living. I kind of feel like they should have included faculty and staff working on campus first over some of the students who are 100% remote still, but I can see how adjudicating that was too complicated. They did say they would let faculty and staff know tomorrow if there were any extra doses.

They did have extra doses! Checked email during the mid-class break this morning and they had just opened it up to faculty and staff, so I was able to nap a slot Friday. Very happy because there are otherwise zero appointments available in the whole state.

It really does seem like it's time for states using <70% of their allocations or so to give some up for the states that are using >85%. Call it a loan if that makes it politically more palatable. Hey Alabama, we see your freezers are getting really full-- how about we take some of those off your hands, and we'll totally give you some back later if your citizens come to their senses and decide they want them.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 21, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 21, 2021, 06:34:11 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 20, 2021, 10:52:48 PM
*sigh*
Parents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

I can sense this is going to be an argument.
Are you vaccinated yet?

From what you've written about your parents, it seems like it might best to just use the easily available excuse to avoid going to see them?

I'll be able to get vaccinated next month. I'm more worried about transmitting than catching, given their senior citizen status.

My Dad gets most of his 'news' from Fox News commentators. I don't think he even bothers listening to the news reports, just the most opinionated talking heads. He thinks the dangers of COVID are mostly hype from foaming-at-the-mouth liberals trying to make Trump look bad. I don't know what to say to him.

Quote from: clean on April 21, 2021, 09:38:32 AM
QuoteParents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

"Mom.  Dad.  I love you very much but I just can not risk catching something and bringing it home to my  hubby who has several comorbidities.  Until you both  get vaccinated, and wait the required 2 weeks, I can not risk visiting you and taking the risk of catching anything from the travels (not to mention the airlines)."

That sounds pretty good. I'll probably go with something like this.

Depending on their mood, they may simply roll their eyes and indulge what they perceive as my ridiculous concerns ("ok, fine; I guess a visit can wait a bit longer") or they'll take it personally and get insulting ("so I guess we're idiots for not getting vaccinated?" or "typical millennial, completely brainwashed by the liberal media and university system; wake up and think for yourself!" or "well don't say we didn't warn you when those vaccines damage you beyond repair.")

Eh...whichever way they go on this, they can do it over the phone.

I'm not an M.D. or a virologist, but out of the three of us I have, by far, the most knowledge and experience related to biomedical research. They like to brag to their friends about my degrees, but apparently don't put much stock in their worth?

My mom: "I don't care how many degrees you get or how many papers you publish, I will always be older and wiser than you are."

*sigh*
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 02:50:35 PM
I've registered for my first vaccination (registration opened up yesterday). No word on scheduling, however. I'll be surprised if they make it to me any time before the fall.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 22, 2021, 05:14:04 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 21, 2021, 02:42:13 PM
Quote from: Caracal on April 21, 2021, 06:34:11 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 20, 2021, 10:52:48 PM
*sigh*
Parents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

I can sense this is going to be an argument.
Are you vaccinated yet?

From what you've written about your parents, it seems like it might best to just use the easily available excuse to avoid going to see them?

I'll be able to get vaccinated next month. I'm more worried about transmitting than catching, given their senior citizen status.

My Dad gets most of his 'news' from Fox News commentators. I don't think he even bothers listening to the news reports, just the most opinionated talking heads. He thinks the dangers of COVID are mostly hype from foaming-at-the-mouth liberals trying to make Trump look bad. I don't know what to say to him.

Quote from: clean on April 21, 2021, 09:38:32 AM
QuoteParents are asking me to visit sometime soon ("it's been so long!"), but don't seem to be planning on getting vaccinated because of potential side effects. They've always been deeply mistrustful of mainstream medicine, the FDA, and 'Big Pharma'.

"Mom.  Dad.  I love you very much but I just can not risk catching something and bringing it home to my  hubby who has several comorbidities.  Until you both  get vaccinated, and wait the required 2 weeks, I can not risk visiting you and taking the risk of catching anything from the travels (not to mention the airlines)."

That sounds pretty good. I'll probably go with something like this.

Depending on their mood, they may simply roll their eyes and indulge what they perceive as my ridiculous concerns ("ok, fine; I guess a visit can wait a bit longer") or they'll take it personally and get insulting ("so I guess we're idiots for not getting vaccinated?" or "typical millennial, completely brainwashed by the liberal media and university system; wake up and think for yourself!" or "well don't say we didn't warn you when those vaccines damage you beyond repair.")

Eh...whichever way they go on this, they can do it over the phone.

I'm not an M.D. or a virologist, but out of the three of us I have, by far, the most knowledge and experience related to biomedical research. They like to brag to their friends about my degrees, but apparently don't put much stock in their worth?

My mom: "I don't care how many degrees you get or how many papers you publish, I will always be older and wiser than you are."

*sigh*

Yeah, just tell them you'd feel terrible if you caught the virus traveling and that you aren't going to feel comfortable with it until you're vaccinated. You can't make their choices about vaccination, but you can certainly make your own choices about the level of risk you're willing to pose to them and others.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:14:27 AM
One of our staff members has a relative with schizophrenia.  She told me that this person's condition seems to have improved since being vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 22, 2021, 07:52:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:14:27 AM
One of our staff members has a relative with schizophrenia.  She told me that this person's condition seems to have improved since being vaccinated.

Probably a coincidence, but there are interesting immune-brain links. In fact there is a whole subfield called psychoneuroimmunology. Neuroinflammatory processes have certainly been implicated in schizophrenia.

It's not clear how the vaccine might affect inflammatory processes. They should be upregulated transiently during the acute immune response, but it is possible they then help "reset"  the immune system in some ways. This has been one of the speculated mechanisms about why some people with long-covid report significant improvements in symptoms post-vaccination (other theories are that they have residual virus or viral fragments that get cleared).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: smallcleanrat on April 22, 2021, 07:55:44 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 22, 2021, 07:52:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:14:27 AM
One of our staff members has a relative with schizophrenia.  She told me that this person's condition seems to have improved since being vaccinated.

Probably a coincidence, but there are interesting immune-brain links. In fact there is a whole subfield called psychoneuroimmunology. Neuroinflammatory processes have certainly been implicated in schizophrenia.

It's not clear how the vaccine might affect inflammatory processes. They should be upregulated transiently during the acute immune response, but it is possible they then help "reset"  the immune system in some ways. This has been one of the speculated mechanisms about why some people with long-covid report significant improvements in symptoms post-vaccination (other theories are that they have residual virus or viral fragments that get cleared).

+1

I was about to post the same thing. It's really interesting.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 09:34:09 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 22, 2021, 07:52:52 AM
Quote from: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 07:14:27 AM
One of our staff members has a relative with schizophrenia.  She told me that this person's condition seems to have improved since being vaccinated.

Probably a coincidence, but there are interesting immune-brain links. In fact there is a whole subfield called psychoneuroimmunology. Neuroinflammatory processes have certainly been implicated in schizophrenia.

It's not clear how the vaccine might affect inflammatory processes. They should be upregulated transiently during the acute immune response, but it is possible they then help "reset"  the immune system in some ways. This has been one of the speculated mechanisms about why some people with long-covid report significant improvements in symptoms post-vaccination (other theories are that they have residual virus or viral fragments that get cleared).

Like you said, probably just coincidence.  But wouldn't it be something if some schizophrenics' reactions to vaccines put researchers onto the trail of an actual treatment for some of them?

In the midst of people trying to blame their vaccines for any problems that they experience afterward, it's interesting to see somebody going the other way.  Wonder if anybody else out there has had, or at least thinks they've had, any post-vaccine benefits?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: fleabite on April 22, 2021, 05:21:16 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 22, 2021, 09:34:09 AM
In the midst of people trying to blame their vaccines for any problems that they experience afterward, it's interesting to see somebody going the other way.  Wonder if anybody else out there has had, or at least thinks they've had, any post-vaccine benefits?

In fact, there have been a number of reports of people with long-haul Covid-19 whose symptoms improved considerably after vaccination. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be a cure for everyone with the extended version of the illness, but at least some are being helped
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on April 22, 2021, 07:15:11 PM
Yesterday, Gov. Hogan spoke about efforts to get Marylanders vaccinated:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/maryland-gov-larry-hogan-pledges-no-arm-left-behind-in-covid-19-vaccine-effort/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/04/maryland-gov-larry-hogan-pledges-no-arm-left-behind-in-covid-19-vaccine-effort/)

Also, Costco will do vaccinations by appointment at its warehouses:
https://wtop.com/coronavirus/2021/04/costco-pharmacies-to-administer-covid-19-vaccines/ (https://wtop.com/coronavirus/2021/04/costco-pharmacies-to-administer-covid-19-vaccines/)

Posted on WTOP Radio online.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on April 23, 2021, 01:07:16 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 21, 2021, 10:06:54 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 20, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.

My university had a list of university members who would be willing to sprint to campus to take extra doses if people didn't show up for appointments. This might be just a Pfizer thing, but might also be worth enquiring about.

They did get another batch of doses and opened it to all students regardless of where they are living. I kind of feel like they should have included faculty and staff working on campus first over some of the students who are 100% remote still, but I can see how adjudicating that was too complicated. They did say they would let faculty and staff know tomorrow if there were any extra doses.

They did have extra doses! Checked email during the mid-class break this morning and they had just opened it up to faculty and staff, so I was able to nap a slot Friday. Very happy because there are otherwise zero appointments available in the whole state.

It really does seem like it's time for states using <70% of their allocations or so to give some up for the states that are using >85%. Call it a loan if that makes it politically more palatable. Hey Alabama, we see your freezers are getting really full-- how about we take some of those off your hands, and we'll totally give you some back later if your citizens come to their senses and decide they want them.

Some states are now doing that, including ours.  Although vaccination has hardly stopped here, stockpiles have been accumulating and the Governor has requested less to give them a chance to draw down.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 23, 2021, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 23, 2021, 01:07:16 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 21, 2021, 10:06:54 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 20, 2021, 03:47:44 PM
Quote from: Puget on April 20, 2021, 06:57:08 AM
My state finally opened up for everyone yesterday, but of course no appointments to be had. The university got some doses, but is prioritizing students in dorms (which makes sense). I signed up for text alerts, and one came at 4:15 AM but of course by the time I was awake there were no appointments.  So I may have to wait a few weeks, or set an alarm for 4 AM.

My university had a list of university members who would be willing to sprint to campus to take extra doses if people didn't show up for appointments. This might be just a Pfizer thing, but might also be worth enquiring about.

They did get another batch of doses and opened it to all students regardless of where they are living. I kind of feel like they should have included faculty and staff working on campus first over some of the students who are 100% remote still, but I can see how adjudicating that was too complicated. They did say they would let faculty and staff know tomorrow if there were any extra doses.

They did have extra doses! Checked email during the mid-class break this morning and they had just opened it up to faculty and staff, so I was able to nap a slot Friday. Very happy because there are otherwise zero appointments available in the whole state.

It really does seem like it's time for states using <70% of their allocations or so to give some up for the states that are using >85%. Call it a loan if that makes it politically more palatable. Hey Alabama, we see your freezers are getting really full-- how about we take some of those off your hands, and we'll totally give you some back later if your citizens come to their senses and decide they want them.

Some states are now doing that, including ours.  Although vaccination has hardly stopped here, stockpiles have been accumulating and the Governor has requested less to give them a chance to draw down.

I also really hope there is soon going to be a move towards no appointment vaccinations offered at convenient places.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on April 24, 2021, 02:01:04 PM
Some 6 weeks after my 2nd shot, I began to experience a soreness and a "catch" when I bend or extend my right hand "ringfinger". It does not hamper most of my tasks; however, it does seem to bother me a bit as try to fully utilize the next finger to the left, the index finger, in a means of expression.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on April 25, 2021, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: Economizer on April 24, 2021, 02:01:04 PM
Some 6 weeks after my 2nd shot, I began to experience a soreness and a "catch" when I bend or extend my right hand "ringfinger". It does not hamper most of my tasks; however, it does seem to bother me a bit as try to fully utilize the next finger to the left, the index finger, in a means of expression.

This sounds like trigger finger (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/trigger-finger/symptoms-causes/syc-20365100).  It can be treated.  Liquidspouse eventually had his surgically corrected since it was bothering him a lot.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Economizer on April 25, 2021, 08:46:59 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 25, 2021, 07:16:09 AM
Quote from: Economizer on April 24, 2021, 02:01:04 PM
Some 6 weeks after my 2nd shot, I began to experience a soreness and a "catch" when I bend or extend my right hand "ringfinger". It does not hamper most of my tasks; however, it does seem to bother me a bit as try to fully utilize the next finger to the left, the index finger, in a means of expression.

This sounds like trigger finger (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/trigger-finger/symptoms-causes/syc-20365100).  It can be treated.  Liquidspouse eventually had his surgically corrected since it was bothering him a lot.
Ok, tks. Looked up Trigger Finger and found a lot of information: 1. Good News: Often it heals on its own!
                       2. bad news: sometimes it don't.

But, could it have been related to my Covid vaccinations or is it, perhaps, "just coincidence"?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on April 25, 2021, 12:39:46 PM
I am not a doctor, but it's my understanding that side effects will develop, if they do, a lot more quickly than six weeks out. The one time I had side effects from a vaccination, they happened within a couple of hours. I would guess it's just coincidence.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on April 25, 2021, 12:49:14 PM
Sometimes bananas or other potassium sources help to get things back in balance.

Musicians get it sometimes--as often from lifting an instrument case as from playing a tricky fingering--and it's more common with age.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on April 25, 2021, 02:23:55 PM
The California public universities are requiring students to get a COVID vaccine. Rutgers, U Mass Amherst, U Michigan, U Maryland are other public universities that are requiring them. Mostly it seems private colleges are requiring it though.

Only a few places are requiring employees to get the vaccine.

This is the best list I've found so far.
https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/live-coronavirus-updates/heres-a-list-of-colleges-that-will-require-students-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19?cid=gen_sign_in


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on April 27, 2021, 04:52:05 AM
Millions are skipping their second dose of vaccine. Doctors say they are worried. But they have no idea what the effects are of skipping the second dose, they say, just speculation. They don't know how long the vaccine will be effective for. In Europe, it has been standard policy to wait 3 months between doses, but why not 6 months? It's not exactly evidence-based practice.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/25/business/covid-vaccines-second-doses.html
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on April 27, 2021, 05:06:29 AM
It would boost your immunity by *some* amount regardless of when you get the second dose. That's sort of the point of boosters. But the question is when would it be most effective or at least not leave patient with too low of an immunity level for too long. It's partly evidence based because we are starting to get data from larger groups of people who have been immunized for over 6 months and with differing delays of second dose.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 27, 2021, 06:37:57 AM
Quote from: downer on April 25, 2021, 02:23:55 PM
The California public universities are requiring students to get a COVID vaccine. Rutgers, U Mass Amherst, U Michigan, U Maryland are other public universities that are requiring them. Mostly it seems private colleges are requiring it though.

Only a few places are requiring employees to get the vaccine.

This is the best list I've found so far.
https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/live-coronavirus-updates/heres-a-list-of-colleges-that-will-require-students-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19?cid=gen_sign_in

As of yesterday my university has joined the list. It was funny because I was just talking with one of the students in my lab about whether we would, and said that based on the fact all our "aspirational peers" in the area were doing it you could bet we would shortly follow- sure enough. I think we would have had good voluntary compliance anyway but I'm glad they formalized it.

An issue I hadn't thought about but that the announcement raised as something they are seeking expert consultation on, is what to do about students who got vaccines outside the US that aren't FDA approved here (which will apply to quite a few Chinese students who spent the year remote from China). My guess is they will be required to get a booster with an FDA approved vaccine when they arrive next fall, but hopefully the CDC will provide some best practices guidance on that.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 27, 2021, 08:24:06 AM
Quote from: downer on April 27, 2021, 04:52:05 AM
Millions are skipping their second dose of vaccine. Doctors say they are worried. But they have no idea what the effects are of skipping the second dose, they say, just speculation. They don't know how long the vaccine will be effective for. In Europe, it has been standard policy to wait 3 months between doses, but why not 6 months? It's not exactly evidence-based practice.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/25/business/covid-vaccines-second-doses.html

I put that in the category of not particularly surprising and also not really all that worrying. If you get over 90 percent of people to come back and do something in a month, you're doing pretty well. There's also a fair amount of data that even one dose gives a pretty decent amount of protection. Seems like its low on the list of things to worry about.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ab_grp on April 27, 2021, 08:36:40 AM
Youngest got her first dose last week but was not scheduled for a second.  She called the DOH yesterday and was told to wait until the second dose was closer to coming due to schedule it.  I don't think that kind of rigamarole helps bring people back (though she will be pursuing it further, not giving up on the second dose).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 27, 2021, 08:42:08 AM
This is just insane: https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/miami-school-says-it-wont-employ-vaccinated-teachers-citing-debunked-covid-myths/2437547/
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on April 27, 2021, 09:22:15 AM
Quote from: downer on April 27, 2021, 04:52:05 AM
Millions are skipping their second dose of vaccine. Doctors say they are worried. But they have no idea what the effects are of skipping the second dose, they say, just speculation. They don't know how long the vaccine will be effective for. In Europe, it has been standard policy to wait 3 months between doses, but why not 6 months? It's not exactly evidence-based practice.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/25/business/covid-vaccines-second-doses.html

I am in Canada and they have decided to delay the second shot by up to four months.  This is based on data that shows immunity after the first shot lasts at least this long.  Based on this and the relative lack of vaccine, this approach provides better protection at the population level.  I think the reason it is set at four months instead of some other longer period was simply based on the data showing it was still effective at that point and lack of data for longer periods.

So, it is very much an evidence based decision.  Ideally there would be more evidence to make more informed decisions but it seems pretty reasonable.

What's a little more out there is that Quebec has decided to use use a different vaccine entirely for the second dose in some cases.  I assume this would work, but seems unorthodox:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-second-dose-moderna-pfizer-1.5998847
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on April 27, 2021, 09:26:25 AM
Quote from: ab_grp on April 27, 2021, 08:36:40 AM
Youngest got her first dose last week but was not scheduled for a second.  She called the DOH yesterday and was told to wait until the second dose was closer to coming due to schedule it.  I don't think that kind of rigamarole helps bring people back (though she will be pursuing it further, not giving up on the second dose).

That's a really bad practice. My state has almost no one skipping the second dose, probably in large part because they schedule both doses at the same time, or schedule the second dose during the 15 min. waiting period after the first, then send reminders. You need to make the process as frictionless as possible.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on April 27, 2021, 11:25:00 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 27, 2021, 08:42:08 AM
This is just insane: https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/miami-school-says-it-wont-employ-vaccinated-teachers-citing-debunked-covid-myths/2437547/

Seems like that could easily get them sued, no?

For starters, doesn't that open them up to an ADA suit from an employee with a medical condition that makes them more vulnerable to COVID who gets a vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on May 26, 2021, 12:43:37 PM
Our governor has announced today that the state will begin offering vaccination incentives in the form of state lottery tickets and hunting/fishing license gift certificates.  Apparently several other states have already started offering similar deals.  I guess we'll see if it helps any.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
I just got my first dose today. Only 16 weeks to go for the second!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on May 26, 2021, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
I just got my first dose today. Only 16 weeks to go for the second!

Glad you got a dose. And wow-- I'm used to thinking of Canada as doing most things well, but they really have not done well with this, at least in terms of getting second doses on schedule. I don't have a a clear idea of what went wrong-- betting on the wrong vaccines? Just not procuring enough doses?

The world distribution of vaccines doesn't always track that much with what you might expect, e.g., EU not so great, Mongolia fantastic. Others make sense-- small, relatively wealthy countries have generally done well.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

And then there's Bhutan, poor, mountainous, largely roadless, and more than 60% vaccinated in a week-long campaign-- fascinating story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/world/asia/bhutan-vaccines-covid.html?searchResultPosition=2
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on May 26, 2021, 02:41:00 PM
Quote from: Puget on May 26, 2021, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
I just got my first dose today. Only 16 weeks to go for the second!

Glad you got a dose. And wow-- I'm used to thinking of Canada as doing most things well, but they really have not done well with this, at least in terms of getting second doses on schedule. I don't have a a clear idea of what went wrong-- betting on the wrong vaccines? Just not procuring enough doses?

The world distribution of vaccines doesn't always track that much with what you might expect, e.g., EU not so great, Mongolia fantastic. Others make sense-- small, relatively wealthy countries have generally done well.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

And then there's Bhutan, poor, mountainous, largely roadless, and more than 60% vaccinated in a week-long campaign-- fascinating story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/world/asia/bhutan-vaccines-covid.html?searchResultPosition=2

I heard a radio story about summer vacation airline travel from the USA to the EU, and the complications that have arisen due to the USA's lack of a comprehensive, efficient vaccination verification program. Bhutan (and probably Israel) and the USA demonstrate the difference in outcomes between countries that sufficiently invest in coordinated national public health systems and those that don't. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 02:52:24 PM
Quote from: Puget on May 26, 2021, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
I just got my first dose today. Only 16 weeks to go for the second!

Glad you got a dose. And wow-- I'm used to thinking of Canada as doing most things well, but they really have not done well with this, at least in terms of getting second doses on schedule. I don't have a a clear idea of what went wrong-- betting on the wrong vaccines? Just not procuring enough doses?

The world distribution of vaccines doesn't always track that much with what you might expect, e.g., EU not so great, Mongolia fantastic. Others make sense-- small, relatively wealthy countries have generally done well.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

And then there's Bhutan, poor, mountainous, largely roadless, and more than 60% vaccinated in a week-long campaign-- fascinating story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/world/asia/bhutan-vaccines-covid.html?searchResultPosition=2

What went wrong is the US is not sending us the doses we purchased.

The federal government bought 400 million doses. But we have no domestic vaccine manufacturing because the Conservatives sold it off thirty years ago. So we're currently relying on doses from Europe, which have been delayed a bunch.

The federal government had an agreement in place early on the pandemic with China that would have restored a measure of domestic vaccine-making, but China scuppered it because Trump dragged us into the Huawei thing and kept us there.

It was decided to stagger doses by 16 weeks a while ago so that we could maximize the number of first doses administered, given our supply shortages.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on May 26, 2021, 11:05:14 PM
Canada bought vax doses from the US that were not sent?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on May 27, 2021, 05:57:52 AM
So about 18 states have passed laws that forbid businesses from discriminating against the unvaccinated.

It's an interesting position, and I can see some justification for the position. I'm mainly struck that this is from the side who defended the rights of businesses to discriminate against gay people. What a vile group they are.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on May 27, 2021, 08:09:14 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 26, 2021, 11:05:14 PM
Canada bought vax doses from the US that were not sent?

The US has been using the Defense Poduction Act to compel its vaccine manufacturers to fulfill all US demand for vaccines and vaccine components before they export them to fulfill their other purchase contracts. Practically-speaking, that's amounted to a soft ban on exports, and means that purchase agreements have yet to be honoured.

Excessive reliance on the US has always been a problem for us. I'm not particularly bent out of shape by the decision on the US's part; it just means that the slow vaccination rates are not really our government's fault, except in the broad sense that we have to stop relying on the US. And, actually, things are speeding up here--we've now pulled far ahead of the US in doses administered, we're just way behind on fully vaccinated people. Whether we should all be getting vaccinated before vulnerable populations elsewhere in the world is another matter.)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on May 27, 2021, 08:38:58 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 02:52:24 PM
Quote from: Puget on May 26, 2021, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 26, 2021, 01:52:49 PM
I just got my first dose today. Only 16 weeks to go for the second!

Glad you got a dose. And wow-- I'm used to thinking of Canada as doing most things well, but they really have not done well with this, at least in terms of getting second doses on schedule. I don't have a a clear idea of what went wrong-- betting on the wrong vaccines? Just not procuring enough doses?

The world distribution of vaccines doesn't always track that much with what you might expect, e.g., EU not so great, Mongolia fantastic. Others make sense-- small, relatively wealthy countries have generally done well.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

And then there's Bhutan, poor, mountainous, largely roadless, and more than 60% vaccinated in a week-long campaign-- fascinating story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/world/asia/bhutan-vaccines-covid.html?searchResultPosition=2

What went wrong is the US is not sending us the doses we purchased.

The federal government bought 400 million doses. But we have no domestic vaccine manufacturing because the Conservatives sold it off thirty years ago. So we're currently relying on doses from Europe, which have been delayed a bunch.

The federal government had an agreement in place early on the pandemic with China that would have restored a measure of domestic vaccine-making, but China scuppered it because Trump dragged us into the Huawei thing and kept us there.

It was decided to stagger doses by 16 weeks a while ago so that we could maximize the number of first doses administered, given our supply shortages.

Yes, our overall vaccination rate (total injections/capita) is about the same as Germany (which is relatively decent), we have just made a conscious decision to prioritize the first dose and delay the second shot (a smart choice IMO).  So, it is not that we are "doing poorly" getting the second dose out, we just made this decision based on the availability.  On this front, we are doing very well and are now ahead of the USA.  Ultimately, it looks like our vaccination rate will be substantially higher than the US (Especially red states...).

As for our overall success (or lack thereof) in getting vaccines quickly, as you mention this is really our own fault and the lack of domestic manufacturing capacity as a result of both major parties and their lack of vision/diligence (likewise with our flawed PPE stockpiles).  I hear a lot of people blaming the government for our lack of access, but this is a decades old problem and the fact that we are on par with Germany for doses/person when we have no manufacturing capacity and they do seems to suggest the government has actually done well on that front given the cards they were dealt.  I do question why we still dont have capacity given that we are over a year into the pandemic, but that is a slightly different thing.

As for the US not releasing doses, I also understand this policy but am surprised how slow they are to release them now given their current situation.  Especially the millions of astrazenica doses since they have not even approved it....

I am also surprised to see China, Russia, India, and the EU sending doses around the world before they are vaccinated themselves.  The US seems to be the outlier on this front despite the general love of full on capitalism.

 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on May 27, 2021, 11:55:33 AM
It now appears that the decision to delay the second shot has the unintentional side effect of actually producing a better immune response than the classic 3- or 4-week wait. Being a bit immune-deficient myself, I have a little bit of envy for the people who have an added boost to their immunity.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Stockmann on June 02, 2021, 06:34:47 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on May 27, 2021, 08:38:58 AM
I am also surprised to see China, Russia, India, and the EU sending doses around the world before they are vaccinated themselves.  The US seems to be the outlier on this front despite the general love of full on capitalism.

Russians seem to be very wary of the Russian vaccine - given the legacy of Chernobyl, Lysenkoism, etc, it's misguided but understandable. I know, anecdotally, through the grapevine, that some clearly high-risk Russians would rather wait for as long as it takes for foreign vaccines to become available rather than take Sputnik V. So exporting it when your own population doesn't want it makes sense.

Here in Shitty Location, I've finally gotten a jab - but it's not available to my wife and may not be for a long time. Since there are no appointments for US visas available here until 2022, getting immunized in the US is not an option. I know Russia immunizes foreigners for a very modest fee, and I in fact know someone here who will get vaccinated in Russia, but there are various logistical problems with that for me. Reportedly Cuba will offer its vaccinations to tourists, that might also be an option as and if more is known about the Cuban vaccines, and if we become desperate enough.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on June 06, 2021, 09:41:08 AM
I finally got Pfizer #1 yesterday. Arm is pretty sore, but otherwise fine. Except I took two very satisfying couch-naps, and even for me on a Sunday that's an unusually large number of couch-naps.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on June 06, 2021, 07:21:07 PM
Maryland will close their mass vaccination sites by next month:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/06/maryland-winding-down-most-mass-vaccination-clinics/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/06/maryland-winding-down-most-mass-vaccination-clinics/)
From WTOP Radio online (6/3/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on June 07, 2021, 07:54:19 AM
Yesterday our pastor encouraged vaccination, even if you aren't afraid of COVID yourself, or ARE afraid of the vaccine.  We're not doing it for ourselves, we're doing it for the sake of allaying concerns in other people.  He pointed out the example of Timothy, a New Testament Christian who agreed as an adult to be circumcised in order not to give offense to Jewish communities he worked with.  As the pastor put it, a sore arm doesn't seem like such a big deal compared to volunteering to be circumcised as an adult!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on June 07, 2021, 11:33:34 AM
It is very good that your pastor did this-- I would very much like mine to do so, but someone would probably have to convince him to get vaccinated first--- how did the congregation react to it?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on June 07, 2021, 01:55:43 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 07, 2021, 11:33:34 AM
It is very good that your pastor did this-- I would very much like mine to do so, but someone would probably have to convince him to get vaccinated first--- how did the congregation react to it?

I don't know.  I'll probably find out Wednesday evening.  He may get some critical comments, but I doubt anybody will make trouble over it. 

I'd been wanting him to say something along those lines myself.  I knew he wasn't against vaccination--he got vaccinated sometime back, around the time I did.  Our society's growing habit of turning matters that shouldn't be a matter of political posturing into intensely polarized and divisive identity issues has made it extremely hard for ministers to address things like this.  So I didn't pressure him. 

Notice how he addressed the issue.  He didn't deny or belittle the reasons--"I'm not afraid of getting COVID" or "I AM afraid of getting the vaccine"--why so many are resistant to vaccination.  He simply pointed out that vaccination is a good thing to do out of consideration for others.  Which is thoroughly consistent with the emphasis he has always placed in his messages on living our lives for God by living them for other people, as opposed to merely living for ourselves.  Which in turn comes, you know, from the New Testament.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Langue_doc on June 07, 2021, 08:04:00 PM
Sign on the door to the coffee shop announced that "maskless employees" have been vaccinated and that patrons who were vaccinated didn't have to wear masks. I heard at least a couple of customers ask for clarification as the customers didn't have to show proof of vaccination. It's almost the same policy in the hotel where I'm staying as the person at the front desk told me that I didn't need to wear a mask anywhere on the premises and also in most of the places in town.

The protocols in NY, according to the twice-weekly email from the guv sent today:

"Per the CDC, New York has done more shots in arms per capita than any big state in the country—68.6 percent of adults have at least one dose of the COVID vaccine. Today I announced that once we hit 70 percent, most of the remaining COVID-19 restrictions will be lifted. This includes industry-specific capacity restrictions, social distancing, as well as other protocols in place. Until more New Yorkers are vaccinated, large-scale event venues, public transit, and pre-K to 12 schools still must follow the State's guidelines."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on June 08, 2021, 04:40:21 AM
Several countries now allow people from the US to visit just with a negative PCR COVID test done within 72 hours of arrival.

Private companies are charging $200-400 for those tests.

If you go to a testing site with a sore throat and ask for a PCR test, how soon do you get the results?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on June 08, 2021, 06:58:09 AM
Quote from: downer on June 08, 2021, 04:40:21 AM
Several countries now allow people from the US to visit just with a negative PCR COVID test done within 72 hours of arrival.

Private companies are charging $200-400 for those tests.

If you go to a testing site with a sore throat and ask for a PCR test, how soon do you get the results?

The last time we did one of these it was a less than 24 hour turnaround time.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on June 08, 2021, 11:39:46 AM
Any suggestions?:

I am in one of those Red States that has dictated that masks in public buildings are NOT required. 
Fine.
I am not exactly sure yet what the total ramifications will be.
My Sister In Law is in one of the OTHER red states that makes the news.
At the university she works, you can not require a mask.  (Vaccinated people are not required to wear one, but non-vaccinated ones should).  HOwever, you can not in any way ask for proof, one way or the other.  She reports that faculty are not able to require students to wear masks EVEN in their offices.

That is my problem. I will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall. Fine!.
I have been vaccinated, BUT I have multiple comorbidities.  Even IF I would have 'less critical' reactions to getting sick, it is very likely that I will still have a MORE serious reaction than an otherwise healthy person.

So what do I do?  I will be glad to provide masks to students that want to meet with me in my office, but if they refuse the mask, What do I do?

(Currently, i fear that I will become suddenly nauseous and require to cancel my office hours and go home, where I will be glad to meet with the maskless and other students online/via WebEx.... I think that I can throw up on demand, though Im not sure I have mastered that 'skill'). 

Anyone else facing similar governmental mandates?  What are your contingency plans?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Morden on June 08, 2021, 12:17:07 PM
QuoteI will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall.
Do you have to have in person office hours in your office? Could you have them in a larger, better ventilated (or even outdoor) location?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on June 08, 2021, 12:54:58 PM
Quote from: Morden on June 08, 2021, 12:17:07 PM
QuoteI will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall.
Do you have to have in person office hours in your office? Could you have them in a larger, better ventilated (or even outdoor) location?

Cant you refuse to work if you feel the conditions are unsafe (not familiar with US policy on this)?  If so, I would do so to elevate the concern.

Of course, this assumes you are tenured or secure in your position...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on June 08, 2021, 01:16:04 PM
QuoteCant you refuse to work if you feel the conditions are unsafe

They are equally free to refuse to Pay me!!

I am working another 1302 days (according to the countdown calendar). At that point I have health insurance paid by the state in retirement (and could retire then, assuming my portfolios hold their values by then).

I could try to use the conference room near my office to meet with students at a greater distance. However, in the past, i have used that room to do other things (as it was a slack resource) only to have a busy body associate dean ask, "What do you need for us  to help you with to allow you to work in your office?"  I replied, "What is the issue with using a slack resource? I need space, and my office is not big enough to spread out as I need to do this work (at 4 pm and later  in the afternoon!)"

Outside is probably not an option.  While I dont think that they are checking for my presence in the office, I have the office next to the Dean's Suite, so all of the admincritters would have to stop outside my door to open the suite door!  It is hard to hide my absence! 

Otherwise, even in the fall, it is hot, humid  and windy here.  We USE ac here and would not live here without it!.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Antiphon1 on June 12, 2021, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: clean on June 08, 2021, 01:16:04 PM
QuoteCant you refuse to work if you feel the conditions are unsafe

They are equally free to refuse to Pay me!!

I am working another 1302 days (according to the countdown calendar). At that point I have health insurance paid by the state in retirement (and could retire then, assuming my portfolios hold their values by then).

I could try to use the conference room near my office to meet with students at a greater distance. However, in the past, i have used that room to do other things (as it was a slack resource) only to have a busy body associate dean ask, "What do you need for us  to help you with to allow you to work in your office?"  I replied, "What is the issue with using a slack resource? I need space, and my office is not big enough to spread out as I need to do this work (at 4 pm and later  in the afternoon!)"

Outside is probably not an option.  While I dont think that they are checking for my presence in the office, I have the office next to the Dean's Suite, so all of the admincritters would have to stop outside my door to open the suite door!  It is hard to hide my absence! 

Otherwise, even in the fall, it is hot, humid  and windy here.  We USE ac here and would not live here without it!.

Also in a no refusal possible state.  Last fall I asked the students to stand or sit in the hall outside my door while we talked.  If we needed to discuss a sensitive topic, we took a walk around the outside of the building.  From those of us who are in the same position, my most sincere empathy.  Hopefully clearer heads will turn this argument.  Or require vaccinations. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on June 12, 2021, 07:22:55 PM
Yesterday, Gov. Northam announced the health emergency will end June 30th:
https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/06/northam-will-let-virginia-coronavirus-state-of-emergency-expire-june-30/ (https://wtop.com/virginia/2021/06/northam-will-let-virginia-coronavirus-state-of-emergency-expire-june-30/)
Posted on WTOP Radio online (6/11/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on June 13, 2021, 05:49:15 AM
Quote from: clean on June 08, 2021, 11:39:46 AM
[. . .]

I will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall.

[. . . ]

Place yourself in your office while students meet with you via Webex. You will be on campus in your designated workspace. Your students prefer the convenience of Webex. Who are you to insist on providing them with inferior customer service by forcing them to be physically present at times that are inconvenient for them?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on June 13, 2021, 06:22:09 AM
The President is likely to make a Mission Accomplished speech on July 4 or so. After this, most states remaining in a state of emergency will declare it to be over at the end of July. This assume no resurgence back to pre vaccine levels of disease. Nobody will arrest you for wearing a mask, but it will be almost impossible for you to enforce any measures on your own in US after August 1, or so I predict anyway.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pink_ on June 14, 2021, 11:59:04 AM
Quote from: spork on June 13, 2021, 05:49:15 AM
Quote from: clean on June 08, 2021, 11:39:46 AM
[. . .]

I will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall.

[. . . ]

Place yourself in your office while students meet with you via Webex. You will be on campus in your designated workspace. Your students prefer the convenience of Webex. Who are you to insist on providing them with inferior customer service by forcing them to be physically present at times that are inconvenient for them?

This.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on June 14, 2021, 05:04:29 PM
Quote from: clean on June 08, 2021, 11:39:46 AM
Any suggestions?:

I am in one of those Red States that has dictated that masks in public buildings are NOT required. 
Fine.
I am not exactly sure yet what the total ramifications will be.
My Sister In Law is in one of the OTHER red states that makes the news.
At the university she works, you can not require a mask.  (Vaccinated people are not required to wear one, but non-vaccinated ones should).  HOwever, you can not in any way ask for proof, one way or the other.  She reports that faculty are not able to require students to wear masks EVEN in their offices.

That is my problem. I will be required to have in person office hours in the Fall. Fine!.
I have been vaccinated, BUT I have multiple comorbidities.  Even IF I would have 'less critical' reactions to getting sick, it is very likely that I will still have a MORE serious reaction than an otherwise healthy person.

So what do I do?  I will be glad to provide masks to students that want to meet with me in my office, but if they refuse the mask, What do I do?

(Currently, i fear that I will become suddenly nauseous and require to cancel my office hours and go home, where I will be glad to meet with the maskless and other students online/via WebEx.... I think that I can throw up on demand, though Im not sure I have mastered that 'skill'). 

Anyone else facing similar governmental mandates?  What are your contingency plans?

Just say in class on the first day that you have some health conditions which is why you're still wearing masks in small enclosed spaces like offices. Then say something like "Because of that if you want to come to office hours, I would really appreciate it if you could wear a mask, I'll have some at the door in case you don't have one with you. If you don't want to wear a mask for some reason, I'm also going to be having simultaneous zoom hours, that might be more convenient for some of you regardless. If you do want to meet in person, but would prefer to do it without a mask, we could schedule a meeting out at the tables outside the building, or if you just tell me when you'll be there at office hours we could go out then."

Then when students come to office hours politely hand them the mask and just say, "oh would you mind wearing the mask, sorry I know it can be annoying, but I have some health conditions..."

I think its very unlikely with all of that anyone is going to show up at your office and just refuse to wear a mask. Its your space, you are in a position of authority, you are putting it in terms of health. I doubt it will be a problem. If someone really won't wear one, just walk with them to the outside or the atrium or wherever you feel more comfortable.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on June 14, 2021, 05:12:40 PM
Most would just not show up, but those that do would probably wear the mask without trouble.
I don't think you have to worry about legalities. No one is going to go after individuals.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on June 14, 2021, 05:17:36 PM
Quote from: Ruralguy on June 14, 2021, 05:12:40 PM
Most would just not show up, but those that do would probably wear the mask without trouble.
I don't think you have to worry about legalities. No one is going to go after individuals.

Yeah, as long as you offer options, you can make requests of people who come in to your office based on medical needs. If you were really allergic to certain kinds of perfumes you could ask a student wearing one if they'd mind meeting outside, for example.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on June 15, 2021, 11:26:38 AM
Earlier today, Gov. Hogan announced the health emergency will end in MD July 1st:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/06/gov-hogan-md-state-of-emergency-will-end-july-1/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/06/gov-hogan-md-state-of-emergency-will-end-july-1/)
Posted on WTOP Radio (6/15/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 03, 2021, 05:51:10 PM
I don't think anyone reported on this yet.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210623/indiana-university-covid-vaccine-mandate-lawsuit

Seems particularly related to Indiana law.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 09, 2021, 10:22:11 AM
I can't recall if it was mentioned above, but I'm seeing several churches of various denominations announcing themselves as town vaccination sites in a couple of places.

That seems wise, it tends to give more support to the program from the ecclesial side of things, might be useful in places where hesitation has been tied to theological non-issues.

M. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 09, 2021, 08:45:06 PM
Following up on mamselle's point here, anyone have any experience/ resources, designed to help people convince conservative Christians or other conservative religionists to actually get the damn vax?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 10, 2021, 05:57:35 AM
Places to look would be WCC, denominational/confessional group websites, and interfaith clergy group sites.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 10, 2021, 07:08:16 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 09, 2021, 08:45:06 PM
Following up on mamselle's point here, anyone have any experience/ resources, designed to help people convince conservative Christians or other conservative religionists to actually get the damn vax?

Well, using more diplomatic language would help.

As mamselle notes, you can find resources on various church web sites.  As far as I know, not a single large Christian denomination, liberal, conservative, or otherwise, has come out against any of the vaccines currently used in the U.S., or against vaccination in general.  Pointing out that denominational leaders see nothing wrong with it could be helpful.

I mentioned above that our pastor urged vaccinations in a sermon some time back.  This was an unusual step on his part--he has always tried to stay out of the cultural wars and the sorts of things that so many people have turned into shibboleths.  However, he has always very consistently taught that as Christians we must always remember that our lives are not about ourselves and following our own preferences.  We have to live in a way that shows consideration for others.  Based on this, his reasoning on vaccination went something like this:

We look to God for our protection and our health, and yet we have a responsibility to do whatever we can to protect our health.  We are also responsible for being considerate toward others.  If you depend on God to keep you safe from COVID, then that's very well, but going ahead and getting the vaccine is not a display of unbelief.  If you fear the vaccine, you should remember that God is able to protect you against any problems the vaccine may cause.  If you resent feeling like you're being pushed into doing something--well, it's not all about you and what you want.  Since so many people around us are very deeply worried about COVID, and about others who are not vaccinated, the considerate thing to do is to get vaccinated.  And showing consideration for others always honors God.

I should note that our pastor is not some politically correct "progressive" minister who long ago threw away the Bible in order to stay abreast of the received secular wisdom of the moment at all times.  He is a very conservative, Bible-believing, hellfire-and-damnation (Sometimes--that's part of the New Testament message, not all of it) preacher.  Sometimes following the Bible makes him sound "conservative."  Sometimes it makes him sound "progressive" (He's very uncompromising in his denunciations of racism and bad treatment of immigrants, for example).  Any minister whose statements are predictable in terms of our society's "conservative/progressive" spectrum is probably following some authority other than God's Word.  Its teachings are very much the beat of a different drummer.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on July 10, 2021, 08:45:31 AM
The Gods help those who help themselves.

Natural selection takes care of the rest.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

For this reason, I would not shed a tear, if the delta variant wiped out large swaths of anti-vaxxers.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: waterboy on July 12, 2021, 06:30:35 AM
After walking into a Sam's Club yesterday, and seeing the big sign touting free COVID vaccinations, I'm now 100% in the group of no sympathy for those who can get the vaccine, but don't. You're playing Russian Roulette with serious illness and/or death. Good luck.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.

Certainly can contribute to transmission, although most good studies show that they tend to transmit less than adults. Not arguing against vaccinating kids.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 12, 2021, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.

Certainly can contribute to transmission, although most good studies show that they tend to transmit less than adults. Not arguing against vaccinating kids.

According to a 7/12/2021 Washington Post article, 99.5 percent of all Covid-19-related deaths in the United States occur among unvaccinated people; 0.5 percent of Covid deaths occur among vaccinated people.

According to a recent Post-ABC News poll, 86 percent of Democrats have received at least one vaccine dose, while only 45 percent of Republicans have done so.

It's hard to know for sure, but I will go out on a limb and speculate that it's mainly the people who would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic, in order to make a political statement, who are the ones that are dying.

If this is the case, this will all work itself out naturally, as these lunatics die out one at a time, and lose their political power, one vote at a time.

I think that any political leadership trying to convince these lunatics to get vaccinated is pointless. Efforts should be directed to see if the Delta Variant and others pose a danger and to further protect the vaccinated population with boosters, if necessary. Bring on the super-spreader events, and let the anti-vaxxers learn their lessons the hard way. When they start to see that they are losing votes, the nut jobs that run CPAC will be changing their tune.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 12, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
QuoteIf this is the case, this will all work itself out naturally, as these lunatics die out one at a time, and lose their political power, one vote at a time.

Those dead lunatics were all old. We'll get old, too. Maybe we'll become lunatics as well. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 05:43:40 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 12, 2021, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.

Certainly can contribute to transmission, although most good studies show that they tend to transmit less than adults. Not arguing against vaccinating kids.

According to a 7/12/2021 Washington Post article, 99.5 percent of all Covid-19-related deaths in the United States occur among unvaccinated people; 0.5 percent of Covid deaths occur among vaccinated people.

According to a recent Post-ABC News poll, 86 percent of Democrats have received at least one vaccine dose, while only 45 percent of Republicans have done so.

It's hard to know for sure, but I will go out on a limb and speculate that it's mainly the people who would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic, in order to make a political statement, who are the ones that are dying.

If this is the case, this will all work itself out naturally, as these lunatics die out one at a time, and lose their political power, one vote at a time.

I think that any political leadership trying to convince these lunatics to get vaccinated is pointless. Efforts should be directed to see if the Delta Variant and others pose a danger and to further protect the vaccinated population with boosters, if necessary. Bring on the super-spreader events, and let the anti-vaxxers learn their lessons the hard way. When they start to see that they are losing votes, the nut jobs that run CPAC will be changing their tune.

The problem is that it doesn't work this way, either in terms of the deadliness of the disease or who is vaccinated. When I look at vaccination rates in my area, I certainly see a lot of low vaccination areas among rural republican voters, but there are also a lot among poor minority communities.

The other issue is that vaccines work a lot better when they reduce the incidence of disease. Breakthrough infections are mild and non concerning for  most people, but there are people who are still at risk and will continue to be as long as long as there's a lot of Covid out there.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 12, 2021, 06:20:21 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 05:43:40 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 12, 2021, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.

Certainly can contribute to transmission, although most good studies show that they tend to transmit less than adults. Not arguing against vaccinating kids.

According to a 7/12/2021 Washington Post article, 99.5 percent of all Covid-19-related deaths in the United States occur among unvaccinated people; 0.5 percent of Covid deaths occur among vaccinated people.

According to a recent Post-ABC News poll, 86 percent of Democrats have received at least one vaccine dose, while only 45 percent of Republicans have done so.

It's hard to know for sure, but I will go out on a limb and speculate that it's mainly the people who would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic, in order to make a political statement, who are the ones that are dying.

If this is the case, this will all work itself out naturally, as these lunatics die out one at a time, and lose their political power, one vote at a time.

I think that any political leadership trying to convince these lunatics to get vaccinated is pointless. Efforts should be directed to see if the Delta Variant and others pose a danger and to further protect the vaccinated population with boosters, if necessary. Bring on the super-spreader events, and let the anti-vaxxers learn their lessons the hard way. When they start to see that they are losing votes, the nut jobs that run CPAC will be changing their tune.

The problem is that it doesn't work this way, either in terms of the deadliness of the disease or who is vaccinated. When I look at vaccination rates in my area, I certainly see a lot of low vaccination areas among rural republican voters, but there are also a lot among poor minority communities.

The other issue is that vaccines work a lot better when they reduce the incidence of disease. Breakthrough infections are mild and non concerning for  most people, but there are people who are still at risk and will continue to be as long as long as there's a lot of Covid out there.

OK. You have a point about poor minority populations. Certainly, leadership can be applied there.

However, the last time I was paying attention, it wasn't the poor minority communities who were making a public stink about refusing vaccines, and staking their identity to their refusal.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 12, 2021, 06:44:59 PM
Well I have thought about moving on from this congregation, yes, but I do have some reasons for sticking it out, some of which reasons are good, others sadly not so good.  I was the only person who obeyed the vax mandate when it was still in force, before the vax was available-- that elderly couple I referred to simply did not attend service until they were vaxxed up-- this is why I asked for any suggestions regarding how to convince these folks to vax.  We will see what happens...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 13, 2021, 08:35:33 AM
Taking a different tack, I've been following this family over the past few months, but somehow missed this entry in their work:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnbOKH9Oe9s

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 16, 2021, 10:55:57 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 12, 2021, 06:20:21 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 05:43:40 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 12, 2021, 02:56:32 PM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 07:03:25 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 12, 2021, 06:59:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2021, 06:21:51 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 11, 2021, 09:58:19 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2021, 07:45:47 PM
Forget about any sources from *anything* like the WCC, or any denomination that would be a member thereof.   My pastor, a 65yo guy who has had two *series* of open heart surgeries over the last 15 years, amongst other surgeries and med procedures, refuses to vax, and says so from the pulpit.  I suspect that most congregants have done similarly, and I know of only one couple, both 80+, whom I know to have vaxxed.   I confess I am underwhelmed and am fighting the tendency to think that should pastor or his wife get covid, I will not have much sympathy for them.   They are unambiguously anti-vax, and consume large quantities of propaganda.   They would only listen to sources that come from perspectives/ people, they respect.

Your pastor is a piece of work. Have you considered leaving that congregation?

Sometimes, people have to learn the hard way.

Unfortunately, there are many young children who are still not vaccinated, all of whom are too young to advocate for themselves.

\

Agree with all the rest of this, but we need to stop using young children as an example of people at particular risk from Covid. They are at very low risk of serious disease. Don't need to scare parents unnecessarily.

But, they (kids) are a great source of mild cases that can be passed on to people who had poor responses to the vaccine or who can't get a vaccine for some reason. And a great pool to develop new variants.

Certainly can contribute to transmission, although most good studies show that they tend to transmit less than adults. Not arguing against vaccinating kids.

According to a 7/12/2021 Washington Post article, 99.5 percent of all Covid-19-related deaths in the United States occur among unvaccinated people; 0.5 percent of Covid deaths occur among vaccinated people.

According to a recent Post-ABC News poll, 86 percent of Democrats have received at least one vaccine dose, while only 45 percent of Republicans have done so.

It's hard to know for sure, but I will go out on a limb and speculate that it's mainly the people who would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic, in order to make a political statement, who are the ones that are dying.

If this is the case, this will all work itself out naturally, as these lunatics die out one at a time, and lose their political power, one vote at a time.

I think that any political leadership trying to convince these lunatics to get vaccinated is pointless. Efforts should be directed to see if the Delta Variant and others pose a danger and to further protect the vaccinated population with boosters, if necessary. Bring on the super-spreader events, and let the anti-vaxxers learn their lessons the hard way. When they start to see that they are losing votes, the nut jobs that run CPAC will be changing their tune.

The problem is that it doesn't work this way, either in terms of the deadliness of the disease or who is vaccinated. When I look at vaccination rates in my area, I certainly see a lot of low vaccination areas among rural republican voters, but there are also a lot among poor minority communities.

The other issue is that vaccines work a lot better when they reduce the incidence of disease. Breakthrough infections are mild and non concerning for  most people, but there are people who are still at risk and will continue to be as long as long as there's a lot of Covid out there.

OK. You have a point about poor minority populations. Certainly, leadership can be applied there.

However, the last time I was paying attention, it wasn't the poor minority communities who were making a public stink about refusing vaccines, and staking their identity to their refusal.

A July 6 LA Times article released results of a WP-ABC news poll and gives a few more clues about who is refusing vaccines. Well, I'm not so sure we need clues about this, since some in the Republican party are so pronounced about their views on vaccines.

" . . . according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll released over the weekend.

Vaccine hesitancy is much more prevalent among Republicans than Democrats. Only 6% of Democrats said they probably won't get vaccinated, while 47% of Republicans said the same."


It just gets nuttier. There are Republican lawmakers on the state level who are pushing to cast vaccine refusal as a civil right. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/16/republicans-covid-19-vaccine-refusal-legal-protections


Objecting to the vaccine is a political issue for the Republicans.


But there are definitely subtleties when it comes to minority populations, and that shouldn't be discounted.

According to the Kaiser Family Foundation polling results published on June 11,

"There were also discrepancies between unvaccinated respondents who said they would 'definitely not' get the vaccine and those who just plan to 'wait and see': The 'definitely not' group is overwhelmingly more white (70% of respondents), Republican (67%) and concentrated in the 30-49 age group (48%)."


"The 'wait and see' group, by contrast, is more evenly divided politically—39% are Democrats and 41% Republicans—and are slightly more likely to be Black or Hispanic (22% Black and 20% Hispanic, versus 5% and 11% in the "definitely not group"), though 72% are still between the ages of 18 and 49."

Minority populations are not completely opposed to vaccines. They are simply being cautious and waiting to see if the vaccines are really safe. Considering things like the Tuskegee Experiments and others, I can't say I blame them. But, at least they are 'wait and see.' It's not a political issue to them.

So, we have a pretty good idea about who is refusing vaccines and possibly why, endangering the USA's climb out of the pandemic. It's a mistake to cast minority populations with Republicans (especially rural Republicans) and casting them both as vaccine objectors. Vaccine objection is a problem of Republican doing and IMO opinion is the biggest obstacle to the easiest solution to getting out of the pandemic.

Here's the fun speculative part, where I introduce my own conspiracy theory: many Republicans see COVID-19 as a manufactured crisis that was created to bring down Trump, so the MAGA Republicans and possibly most Republicans want to bring down Biden with COVID-19, in the same way it brought down Trump. Objecting to the vaccine (like objections to masking) is an objection to Biden & Democrats and is seen as a tool on the path to 2022 and 2024 Republican victories, especially if the USA has to go on lockdown again and the economy tanks and people start losing their jobs.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 16, 2021, 10:35:35 PM
Perhaps, but what is really much more likely to occur is that in Red State America, these sorts of killer 4th waves are already breaking, whereas here in more cerulean areas, well...  and one might also ask whether a voter living in a place like Tennessee, with its current, ahem, retrograde attitudes towards vaxxing, would see such a disaster as a fault of the Democrats, even if that voter is an up-to-now dedicated Trumper?   And especially  if he is not.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on July 18, 2021, 08:13:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 09, 2021, 08:45:06 PM
Following up on mamselle's point here, anyone have any experience/ resources, designed to help people convince conservative Christians or other conservative religionists to actually get the damn vax?

https://baptistnews.com/article/my-life-as-a-bad-baseball-player-and-why-you-should-get-vaccinated/ (https://baptistnews.com/article/my-life-as-a-bad-baseball-player-and-why-you-should-get-vaccinated/)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Morden on July 18, 2021, 08:33:08 AM
I don't know if this is helpful.
Quotehttps://www.christiansandthevaccine.com/
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 20, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
Do you have to be vaccinated as a faculty member to go to campus in the fall? Has anyone said what will happen to those who refuse to do so?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on July 20, 2021, 03:08:49 PM
Quote from: downer on July 20, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
Do you have to be vaccinated as a faculty member to go to campus in the fall? Has anyone said what will happen to those who refuse to do so?

At my university, both employees and students are required to be vaccinated. We have to submit proof. I suppose refusal could be classified as insubordination, resulting in termination.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 20, 2021, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: downer on July 20, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
Do you have to be vaccinated as a faculty member to go to campus in the fall? Has anyone said what will happen to those who refuse to do so?

Yes, everyone on campus has to be, unless they obtain a medical or religious exemption. Students cannot enroll without it (international students returning without a US approved vaccine can get one on campus the first day back). I'm not sure what would happen to faculty and staff who don't (and staff and contract faculty have unions which may have a say in that), but it is unlikely to be much of an issue as 90% of both faculty/staff and students have already submitted their documentation according to our data dashboard. I'm willing to bet most of the remaining 10% are also vaccinated but haven't submitted their documentation yet.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: OneMoreYear on July 20, 2021, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: downer on July 20, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
Do you have to be vaccinated as a faculty member to go to campus in the fall? Has anyone said what will happen to those who refuse to do so?

Nope. It is "recommended" but not required that students and faculty are vaccinated, because vaccination is "a personal choice." All classroom are back to normal/pre-COVID capacity settings. Theoretically, unvaccinated people are supposed to continue to wear masks inside and to continue physical distancing (though how they expect unvaccinated students to physically distance when classroom are back to full capacity has not been explained).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 20, 2021, 04:20:10 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on July 20, 2021, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: downer on July 20, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
Do you have to be vaccinated as a faculty member to go to campus in the fall? Has anyone said what will happen to those who refuse to do so?

Nope. It is "recommended" but not required that students and faculty are vaccinated, because vaccination is "a personal choice." All classroom are back to normal/pre-COVID capacity settings. Theoretically, unvaccinated people are supposed to continue to wear masks inside and to continue physical distancing (though how they expect unvaccinated students to physically distance when classroom are back to full capacity has not been explained).

Same here. Our state doesn't want to infringe on anyone's 'freedom' to be unvaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 20, 2021, 04:32:41 PM
Got my second dose yesterday--Pfizer first, Moderna second. It's earlier than I thought it would be, so that's nice.

So far, nothing's required at my institution. But that may change as we get closer to the fall.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 20, 2021, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 20, 2021, 04:32:41 PM
Got my second dose yesterday--Pfizer first, Moderna second. It's earlier than I thought it would be, so that's nice.

So far, nothing's required at my institution. But that may change as we get closer to the fall.

https://xkcd.com
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 20, 2021, 04:54:27 PM
Our state has seen a significant spike in vaccination numbers in the past couple of days.  Looks like the new surge of COVID cases has gotten some waverers' and laggers' attention.  The vaccination numbers still aren't what they should be.

We're one of several states that has tried to bribe people to get vaccinated using a lottery.  The grand prize has now been won by an out-of-stater.  Guess that's what we get for using bribery to try to get people to do what they should be doing anyway.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 20, 2021, 04:56:30 PM
QuoteGuess that's what we get for using bribery to try to get people to do what they should be doing anyway.

No, the problem is the lottery. Give them sufficient cash with certainty and they will come!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 21, 2021, 06:56:46 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

That's good. My impression is that while there are some people who actually believe vaccines have chips or are magnetized, there are lots more who have basically reasonable concerns and questions which can be engaged with and addressed.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Parasaurolophus on July 21, 2021, 07:04:40 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 20, 2021, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 20, 2021, 04:32:41 PM
Got my second dose yesterday--Pfizer first, Moderna second. It's earlier than I thought it would be, so that's nice.

So far, nothing's required at my institution. But that may change as we get closer to the fall.

https://xkcd.com

Bwaha, that was great, thank you!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 21, 2021, 07:11:47 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 21, 2021, 07:04:40 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 20, 2021, 04:47:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 20, 2021, 04:32:41 PM
Got my second dose yesterday--Pfizer first, Moderna second. It's earlier than I thought it would be, so that's nice.

So far, nothing's required at my institution. But that may change as we get closer to the fall.

https://xkcd.com

Bwaha, that was great, thank you!

But Zabdiel Boylston wouldn't understand....

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 21, 2021, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 21, 2021, 03:01:42 PM
Quote from: lightning on July 21, 2021, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.


Better yet, start a conspiracy theory that anti-vax conspiracy theories are a deep state false flag operation to wipe out the conservatives by persuading them not to get the vaccine so they die from COVID.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 21, 2021, 03:14:36 PM
SO's Mom won't get vaccinated. We're not sure why. She voted for the Mighty Orange Turd, but doesn't like him. Go figure. She also thinks the vaccine works, so she's not buying into conspiracy theories.

We've tried gentle persuasion, but in the end it's totally up to her. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 21, 2021, 03:40:58 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 21, 2021, 03:14:36 PM
SO's Mom won't get vaccinated. We're not sure why. She voted for the Mighty Orange Turd, but doesn't like him. Go figure. She also thinks the vaccine works, so she's not buying into conspiracy theories.

We've tried gentle persuasion, but in the end it's totally up to her. Any suggestions?

Have you tried asking her why in a non-judgmental way and then just listening? It's hard to know what to do if you don't know what the problem is.

Maybe she's afraid of needles. That can be a very strong phobia for some people. If that's the case reassuring her it is a very small needle you hardly feel and she can look away so she doesn't even have to see it may help.

Maybe she's afraid of side-effects. Understanding that nearly all side effects are just your immune system doing what it is supposed to do and not anything dangerous, and that they don't generally last more than a day, may help.

Maybe she just isn't sure how to go about getting it and is embarrassed to ask. Older people will often come up with excuses not to do things that don't make a lot of sense, when the real issue is that it is too hard or confusing for them, but they don't like admitting that.
If that's the case, if you live nearby could offer to go with her and take her for a nice (outdoor) meal or other treat afterward to celebrate. Or if you don't you could still make all the arrangements and explain the process to her, with a promise of a celebration when you see her next.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Morden on July 21, 2021, 03:43:58 PM
My SO's mom was also very reluctant--scared of needles and distrustful of medical practitioners. We used the "well, we won't be able to come visit you then because we don't want to be responsible if you get sick" card.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 21, 2021, 04:43:00 PM
She's not afraid of needles- she's donated blood. Unfortunately, she won't go into the why. SO mentioned that she won't be able to volunteer with preemies until she gets a shot. I really don't know why she's reluctant.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 22, 2021, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 21, 2021, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on July 22, 2021, 07:26:01 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 22, 2021, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 21, 2021, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.

My brother told me his daughters haven't been vaccinated--including a nurse and a pharmacy tech! They are clearly NOT Trump voters. But they are young and uncertain about the mRNA technology. They talk about "I Am Legend," a movie in which a vaccine turns everyone into zombies--which my brother points out is NOT a documentary.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 22, 2021, 08:02:32 AM
Quote from: pgher on July 22, 2021, 07:26:01 AM


My brother told me his daughters haven't been vaccinated--including a nurse and a pharmacy tech! They are clearly NOT Trump voters. But they are young and uncertain about the mRNA technology. They talk about "I Am Legend," a movie in which a vaccine turns everyone into zombies--which my brother points out is NOT a documentary.

What's weird about this sort of skepticism is the way a lot of people are uninterested in sorting out their concerns. If we put aside the zombie stuff, there's nothing absurd about having some questions about novel medical drugs and technologies. If I go to my doctor with some issue and he suggests some new drug or treatment, it would be quite reasonable for me to have some questions, like "How safe is it? Would there be any reason to be concerned about long term effects? How does it compare to the old treatments?"

What I don't really understand is just saying "I'm uncertain about mRNA technology," as if that is just an impossible thing to learn more about. That's especially baffling if you're a nurse or pharmacy tech and presumably can understand medical literature and have very easy access to people with expertise who would presumably be happy to answer your questions and address your concerns. I don't know, maybe that's one of those things where it can be hard for academic types to understand people who, faced with some question, wouldn't try to work it out with research?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on July 22, 2021, 08:42:00 AM
Today's post on Your Local Epidemiologist has some great info on talking to the vaccine hesitant:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/vaccine-hesitant-how-can-you-help

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 22, 2021, 08:42:02 AM
I don't find scepticism about vaccines puzzling at all.

For one thing, medicine does not have everything worked out. It is constantly revising and refining its base of knowledge. Some parts of medical knowledge are more squishy than others. New innovations are more likely to turn out to have unexpected downsides.

Then there's Big Pharma, which has a scandalously bad record. There have been some great discoveries that have saved millions of lives, but there have been plenty of cases of inadequately researched drugs that often have terrible side effects or are far less effective than claimed.

The scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

Nurses and doctors are closest to the medical field, and see how imperfect it is. They don't trust it very much.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

(Less than half of doctors are willing to be organ donors -- more than the general population but still significantly low given the desparate need for organs.)

The medical establishment has been facing a crisis of trustworthiness for a long time.

Having said all that, I think it is worth taking the risk of getting the vaccine, versus the risk of getting the virus, and I am vaccinated. But people are famously not very good at assessing and comparing probabilities. The main info they are given is that the vaccines are totally safe, and many don't really believe that. That's where they get stuck.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 22, 2021, 09:52:38 AM
QuoteThe scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

It's the lure of profits that has made the miracles of modern drugs. The drugs work only when the science is sound.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 22, 2021, 05:32:50 PM
Quote from: downer on July 22, 2021, 08:42:02 AM
I don't find scepticism about vaccines puzzling at all.

For one thing, medicine does not have everything worked out. It is constantly revising and refining its base of knowledge. Some parts of medical knowledge are more squishy than others. New innovations are more likely to turn out to have unexpected downsides.

Then there's Big Pharma, which has a scandalously bad record. There have been some great discoveries that have saved millions of lives, but there have been plenty of cases of inadequately researched drugs that often have terrible side effects or are far less effective than claimed.

The scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

Nurses and doctors are closest to the medical field, and see how imperfect it is. They don't trust it very much.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

(Less than half of doctors are willing to be organ donors -- more than the general population but still significantly low given the desparate need for organs.)

The medical establishment has been facing a crisis of trustworthiness for a long time.

Having said all that, I think it is worth taking the risk of getting the vaccine, versus the risk of getting the virus, and I am vaccinated. But people are famously not very good at assessing and comparing probabilities. The main info they are given is that the vaccines are totally safe, and many don't really believe that. That's where they get stuck.

On some level, I agree with you. I don't have some large scale belief in science or medicine. That said, it isn't like most vaccine skeptics have some better alternative. If they got sick, they'd go see a doctor. They do believe in the medical system.

It would be like if you went to three different doctors and they all said that some course of treatment was the one they would recommend, and agreed that it carried low risks and after that you just said "nah, I think I won't do it, might be too dangerous, I've sort of heard that on the internet" Well, why are you bothering to go to the doctors in the first place?

I think you're right. It is about pervasive skepticism and doubt about institutions and experts. But the part I can never quite get is how weirdly selective that doubt is and how people seem to have a hard time testing their concerns. In some sense, I have an easier time understanding the hardcore anti-vaccine people. They have ridiculous ideas, but I can get being unwilling to drop a set of beliefs or ideology. People who just have vague "concerns," that they won't try to address confuse me. I get that lots of people have limited access to doctors, and could be persuaded if they thought their concerns were being listened to and addressed. It doesn't make much sense to me if you're a nurse...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on July 22, 2021, 09:39:28 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 22, 2021, 07:16:57 AM
Quote from: lightning on July 21, 2021, 02:29:45 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2021, 06:46:33 AM
This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.

I did that already.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 23, 2021, 08:38:48 AM
Looks like we're getting two vaccine-hesitant staff members vaccinated.  One got it just yesterday on her day off, and is here today, so she must not be feeling serious side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 24, 2021, 04:43:06 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/education/vaccine-mandate-indiana-university.html

The challenges to the legality and morality of vaccine mandates are interesting. But I can't get over the hypocrisy of the politicians who want to forbid businesses from mandating vaccines when they have previously been all about supporting business rights to do whatever they want.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on July 24, 2021, 06:27:01 AM
Current FB meme asks why folks who scarf down fast food chicken nuggets and burgers and tuna salad sandwiches, all of questionable provenance,  worry about the ingredients in the covid vax.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on July 24, 2021, 10:37:15 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on July 24, 2021, 06:27:01 AM
Current FB meme asks why folks who scarf down fast food chicken nuggets and burgers and tuna salad sandwiches, all of questionable provenance,  worry about the ingredients in the covid vax.

Probably because the risks of those foods are pretty predictable (food poisoning, high cholesterol, etc.) and are considered acceptable since they're either relatively rare or something that won't affect the consumer immediately (i.e., "I'll start eating better tomorrow but right now I'm hungry and this tastes good").  I'm not justifying or agreeing with that logic, but I get it.

Particularly with the mRNA vaccines, there's probably a big element of not understanding the basic science and then being skeptical/suspicious of it.  Heck, I get that, too--given a reasonable choice, I wasn't wild about getting the mRNA vaccine (simply because of family health problems and the genetic bases of those, and an admittedly irrational/somewhat superstitious aversion to doing anything that might remotely have a chance of further screwing with my already screwy profile).  But weighing my DNA worries against the very real and immediate possibility of getting COVID and (due to several comorbidities) dying from it, it was a no-brainer to get vaccinated.

In essence, that "fancy science" is more ripe for suspicion and conspiracy theories, since "they" (the scientists) know something "I" don't, and thus "they" cant be trusted to try to put one over on "us" and "we" can't check up on them.  And since science says those bad foods are bad for me, but I've eaten them for years and am just fine, there's more proof that I shouldn't listen to the scientists when they say the shots are good and I should take them.  (At least, I'd imagine that's the thinking.) 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 24, 2021, 11:00:52 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on July 24, 2021, 10:37:15 AM
Heck, I get that, too--given a reasonable choice, I wasn't wild about getting the mRNA vaccine (simply because of family health problems and the genetic bases of those, and an admittedly irrational/somewhat superstitious aversion to doing anything that might remotely have a chance of further screwing with my already screwy profile).  But weighing my DNA worries against the very real and immediate possibility of getting COVID and (due to several comorbidities) dying from it, it was a no-brainer to get vaccinated.

I assume you know this by now and are just your earlier thoughts, but just to make sure someone else reading doesn't get confused-- mRNA vaccines cannot change your DNA-- they can't even get into the nucleus where the DNA is, and they certainly can't insert themselves into your DNA. They are just protein factories to make antibodies, and the mRNA doesn't last long in your body, only a few days (indeed, the thing that took so long to figure out-- and remember mRNA vaccine research was going on for a decade or more pre-pandemic-- was how to get it to last long enough to make enough antibodies).

The link secundem_artem posted earlier has a good explainer near the bottom, plus some tips on now to talk to the hesitant.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
What I said on the Coronavirus thread: For a healthy young person, the chance of getting killed by Corona is about one in 1000. A person facing those odds who does not get vaccinated, is merely less risk averse than most people on this board, including me. But such people are not necessarily stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational. Some people like going to Las Vegas, others don't. People differ.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on July 24, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
What I said on the Coronavirus thread: For a healthy young person, the chance of getting killed by Corona is about one in 1000. A person facing those odds who does not get vaccinated, is merely less risk averse than most people on this board, including me. But such people are not necessarily stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational. Some people like going to Las Vegas, others don't. People differ.

First, many people are basing their decisions about the vaccine on misinformation and a misunderstanding of risk, as opposed to the probability based approach that you suggest. Second, as you surely know, a healthy young person is more likely to get covid and be asymptomatic, but also pass it on to others who are vulnerable. This dynamic leads to unnecessary deaths and hospitalizations, which are costly in economic and noneconomic terms for the country, and make it very difficult for society to get back to normal. So not all healthy young people who get the vaccine are doing so because they are evil or anti-science, but they are being selfish and destructive for no good reason.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on July 24, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
What I said on the Coronavirus thread: For a healthy young person, the chance of getting killed by Corona is about one in 1000. A person facing those odds who does not get vaccinated, is merely less risk averse than most people on this board, including me. But such people are not necessarily stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational. Some people like going to Las Vegas, others don't. People differ.

First, many people are basing their decisions about the vaccine on misinformation and a misunderstanding of risk, as opposed to the probability based approach that you suggest. Second, as you surely know, a healthy young person is more likely to get covid and be asymptomatic, but also pass it on to others who are vulnerable. This dynamic leads to unnecessary deaths and hospitalizations, which are costly in economic and noneconomic terms for the country, and make it very difficult for society to get back to normal. So not all healthy young people who get the vaccine are doing so because they are evil or anti-science, but they are being selfish and destructive for no good reason.

You mean "don't get the vaccine", don't you? All that would be completely true in the absence of vaccines. But now they are plentifully available. This means anyone who doesn't like the risk can get vaccinated at zero monetary cost. The hospitalization cost for the others will be low from now on, for the vulnerable have been largely vaccinated.

And, most people are selfish most of the time. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 11:27:41 AM
My sense is that (many) people seem to simultaneously overestimate the risks of  dying of COVID and underestimate the other risks associated with even "mild" cases of COVID. As a fully vaccinated person, I have essentially no fear of dying of COVID. I am concerned about one or more of the following:

My mother in law has stage 4 cancer, and had a suboptimal response to her vaccination. My risk tolerance for giving her COVID is extremely low. So even thoughI understand that if I get COVID it's likely to be a mild case and be less transmissable, I'm still masking in indoor spaces with people who are potentially unvaccinated.

I LOVE food. And loss of sense of smell is a common "mild" COVID symptom. I saw how much my grandfather's quality of life went down when he lost his sense of smell (not COVID  related) and am simply not willing to risk that given the mild inconvenience of masking in indoor spaces with people who are potentially unvaccinated.

I have dear friends whose kids are below the age for vaccination. While the kids themselves are at low risk of death, they could still get mild cases that could be passed on to people with suboptimal vaccine responses, or have a "mild" long term sequelae that affect their quality of life. I am am simply not willing to risk that given the mild inconvenience of masking in indoor spaces with people who are potentially unvaccinated.

I think that people who are SIMULTANEOUSLY unwilling to vaccinate themselves AND unwilling to continue masking are, in fact some combination of

Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 24, 2021, 11:35:53 AM
Over 34 million people in the US have had COVID-19. I'd be interested to know the vaccination rate among that group. I suspect it is less than the general population.

If you have (some) immunity from having had COVID, and you don't want to get the vaccine, is that irresponsible? I guess we can argue that it is still better to get the vaccine even if you have had COVID, but is it fair to lump them with the group who never had COVID and won't get the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 11:44:59 AM
Quote from: downer on July 24, 2021, 11:35:53 AM
If you have (some) immunity from having had COVID, and you don't want to get the vaccine, is that irresponsible? I guess we can argue that it is still better to get the vaccine even if you have had COVID, but is it fair to lump them with the group who never had COVID and won't get the vaccine?

Yup, depending on their willingness to mask. Increasing evidence (discussed here (https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/) among other places) suggests that vaccination provides significantly better immunity to newly emerging variants. I stand by my belief that people need to be willing either to get vaccinated or to mask indoors to avoid me labeling them as selfish.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:52:12 AM
QuoteMy sense is that (many) people seem to simultaneously overestimate the risks of  dying of COVID...

That would indeed be typical of human attitudes toward unfamiliar low risks. If it applied here, I think a lot more people would be vaccinated. It might not apply here because healthy young  people have learned by observation over the last year or so that the risk is low.
Quote
... underestimate the other risks associated with even "mild" cases of COVID

If that risk were high, yes. But it's not, for healthy young people.

For the vulnerable, something like their behavior toward flu might be a model.




Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 12:09:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:52:12 AM
QuoteMy sense is that (many) people seem to simultaneously overestimate the risks of  dying of COVID...

That would indeed be typical of human attitudes toward unfamiliar low risks. If it applied here, I think a lot more people would be vaccinated. It might not apply here because healthy young  people have learned by observation over the last year or so that the risk is low.
Quote
... underestimate the other risks associated with even "mild" cases of COVID

If that risk were high, yes. But it's not, for healthy young people.

For the vulnerable, something like their behavior toward flu might be a model.

In a study of medical professionals with mild COVID (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778528) (median age in early 40s) over one in 10 reported at least one moderate to severe symptom that persisted over at least 8 months.

And, lack of risk to self does not reduce my perception that unvaccinated people who are not willing to mask present a risk to others, both through the risk of passing COVID on to someone who is vulnerable through no fault of their own, and on a societal level by serving as a breeding ground for future variants that will be more infectious, able to infect vaccinated people, and more dangerous. Or all three.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 12:30:46 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 12:09:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:52:12 AM
QuoteMy sense is that (many) people seem to simultaneously overestimate the risks of  dying of COVID...

That would indeed be typical of human attitudes toward unfamiliar low risks. If it applied here, I think a lot more people would be vaccinated. It might not apply here because healthy young  people have learned by observation over the last year or so that the risk is low.
Quote
... underestimate the other risks associated with even "mild" cases of COVID

If that risk were high, yes. But it's not, for healthy young people.

For the vulnerable, something like their behavior toward flu might be a model.

In a study of medical professionals with mild COVID (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778528) (median age in early 40s) over one in 10 reported at least one moderate to severe symptom that persisted over at least 8 months.

And, lack of risk to self does not reduce my perception that unvaccinated people who are not willing to mask present a risk to others, both through the risk of passing COVID on to someone who is vulnerable through no fault of their own, and on a societal level by serving as a breeding ground for future variants that will be more infectious, able to infect vaccinated people, and more dangerous. Or all three.

But it's the unvaccinated who suffer the problems of mild cases! What costs society is hospitalization and such, not an eight month pain of an unvaccinated individual.

The breeding ground, too, will hurt the unvaccinated, not the vaccinated.

As for vulnerable populations, something can be done short of requiring everyone to be vaccinated. I doubt it could be enforced, by the way.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 12:42:42 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 12:30:46 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 12:09:57 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:52:12 AM
QuoteMy sense is that (many) people seem to simultaneously overestimate the risks of  dying of COVID...

That would indeed be typical of human attitudes toward unfamiliar low risks. If it applied here, I think a lot more people would be vaccinated. It might not apply here because healthy young  people have learned by observation over the last year or so that the risk is low.
Quote
... underestimate the other risks associated with even "mild" cases of COVID

If that risk were high, yes. But it's not, for healthy young people.

For the vulnerable, something like their behavior toward flu might be a model.

In a study of medical professionals with mild COVID (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778528) (median age in early 40s) over one in 10 reported at least one moderate to severe symptom that persisted over at least 8 months.

And, lack of risk to self does not reduce my perception that unvaccinated people who are not willing to mask present a risk to others, both through the risk of passing COVID on to someone who is vulnerable through no fault of their own, and on a societal level by serving as a breeding ground for future variants that will be more infectious, able to infect vaccinated people, and more dangerous. Or all three.

But it's the unvaccinated who suffer the problems of mild cases! What costs society is hospitalization and such, not an eight month pain of an unvaccinated individual.

The breeding ground, too, will hurt the unvaccinated, not the vaccinated.

As for vulnerable populations, something can be done short of requiring everyone to be vaccinated. I doubt it could be enforced, by the way.

Vaccinated people get mild cases and have sequelae. The vaccines are >90% effective against SEVERE cases, but much less effective against mild cases, especially for more transmissible variants like delta. Very few vaccinated people end up in the hospital, but mild cases (which are basically defined as cases that don't lead to hospitalization) still can cause symptoms like fatigue, anosmia, vascular issues etc. in vaccinated people.

The breeding ground issue WILL affect vaccinated people once the unvaccinated pool throws off a variant that evades immunity from the current vaccines.

I agree that anything that would prevent this is likely unenforceable.I am simply saying that I personally think poorly of people who BOTH refuse to get vaccinated AND refuse to mask in public, and that I am in support of public health mandates (requiring masking of everyone or allowing refusal of service to the unmasked vaccinated) that would reduce the transmission if the variants we have or the production of new, scarier variants.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 01:16:56 PM
QuoteThe breeding ground issue WILL affect vaccinated people once the unvaccinated pool throws off a variant that evades immunity from the current vaccines.

And we know nothing, just speculation.  And that is where we humans go for equal-probability-of-the-unknown without further evidence. We're built that way.

Given what is known about other virus mutations, I'd say the probability of a Black Swan is very low. Opinions can differ. And the reactions can differ, too. Which was my original point.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on July 25, 2021, 09:21:14 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 24, 2021, 11:44:59 AM
Quote from: downer on July 24, 2021, 11:35:53 AM
If you have (some) immunity from having had COVID, and you don't want to get the vaccine, is that irresponsible? I guess we can argue that it is still better to get the vaccine even if you have had COVID, but is it fair to lump them with the group who never had COVID and won't get the vaccine?

Yup, depending on their willingness to mask. Increasing evidence (discussed here (https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/) among other places) suggests that vaccination provides significantly better immunity to newly emerging variants. I stand by my belief that people need to be willing either to get vaccinated or to mask indoors to avoid me labeling them as selfish.

I don't place much stock in "increasing evidence" when the evidence seems also point in other directions.
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html

Given that vaccinated can also get COVID no one is absolutely safe. I'm more incline to place those who have had COVID already in the same category as those who are vaccinated.

But I'm also pretty much in favor of vaccine mandates from employers and schools. My main worry is pragmatic. If mandates generate resentment and resistance, then there may be greater problems in the future, when a more serious viral pandemic hits us.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on July 25, 2021, 01:25:35 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on July 24, 2021, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 24, 2021, 11:04:51 AM
What I said on the Coronavirus thread: For a healthy young person, the chance of getting killed by Corona is about one in 1000. A person facing those odds who does not get vaccinated, is merely less risk averse than most people on this board, including me. But such people are not necessarily stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational. Some people like going to Las Vegas, others don't. People differ.

First, many people are basing their decisions about the vaccine on misinformation and a misunderstanding of risk, as opposed to the probability based approach that you suggest. Second, as you surely know, a healthy young person is more likely to get covid and be asymptomatic, but also pass it on to others who are vulnerable. This dynamic leads to unnecessary deaths and hospitalizations, which are costly in economic and noneconomic terms for the country, and make it very difficult for society to get back to normal. So not all healthy young people who get the vaccine are doing so because they are evil or anti-science, but they are being selfish and destructive for no good reason.

You mean "don't get the vaccine", don't you? All that would be completely true in the absence of vaccines. But now they are plentifully available. This means anyone who doesn't like the risk can get vaccinated at zero monetary cost. The hospitalization cost for the others will be low from now on, for the vulnerable have been largely vaccinated.

And, most people are selfish most of the time. :-)

There are people who cannot get vaccinated, of course, for example because they have some health condition. There is also the issue of variants.

And you can write off the issue of selfishness as being just a part of the human condition, but lots of us who are young and in good shape/health have gotten vaccinated in order to protect others. People who refuse to do their part are hurting the rest of the country by ensuring that the economy/society cannot return to normal.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 02:12:35 PM
The situation is symmetric. If one forces vaccines on people, one is taking something away from them. If one gives freedom of choice, one is taking something away from others.

Because we live in a regime of  non-vaccination allowed, I would be for bribing people people to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: onthefringe on July 25, 2021, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 02:12:35 PM
The situation is symmetric. If one forces vaccines on people, one is taking something away from them. If one gives freedom of choice, one is taking something away from others.

Because we live in a regime of  non-vaccination allowed, I would be for bribing people people to get vaccinated.

Alternate plan: freedom of choice but choices have consequences (eg, needing to mask, not being able to enter some businesses, not being able to take classes in some formats at some schools)

+bribing is fine. I have no problems with both carrots and sticks.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 02:42:41 PM
Quote from: onthefringe on July 25, 2021, 02:37:40 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 02:12:35 PM
The situation is symmetric. If one forces vaccines on people, one is taking something away from them. If one gives freedom of choice, one is taking something away from others.

Because we live in a regime of  non-vaccination allowed, I would be for bribing people people to get vaccinated.

Alternate plan: freedom of choice but choices have consequences (eg, needing to mask, not being able to enter some businesses, not being able to take classes in some formats at some schools)

+bribing is fine. I have no problems with both carrots and sticks.

I agree with both. The bribes are consequences of the right not to vaccinate. The sticks suggested here are consequences of freedom of association. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Stockmann on July 25, 2021, 08:13:45 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on July 25, 2021, 08:13:45 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.

Yup. Never gonna happen though.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on July 26, 2021, 05:25:38 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on July 25, 2021, 08:13:45 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 25, 2021, 07:34:55 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.

Yup. Never gonna happen though.

And that assumes they have health insurance to begin with.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: spork on July 26, 2021, 05:43:23 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on July 26, 2021, 09:31:33 PM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2021, 05:43:23 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).

Yup, I couldn't perform better on account I was already performing at the optimum. Had I had more autonomy --not just the sense of it -- I would have performed even better!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Vkw10 on July 27, 2021, 05:25:23 AM
Quote from: spork on July 26, 2021, 05:43:23 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 25, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).

Wonder if that's the book about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation I read a couple of decades ago? I picked it up because it was being quoted as saying that rewarding kids for doing things in programs like Accelerated Reader was counterproductive, but found the book I read more nuanced. As I recall, occasional bribes worked to get people to do a single thing but repeated bribes to get them to develop a habit rarely worked long-term. If it's the same book, it's worth reading.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 27, 2021, 06:25:51 AM
I remember that from fresman-level Psych 101.

Inconsistent, infrequent reinforcement correlated more closely with learned behaviors than either consistent rewards, or more frequent ones.

I've got the book, could probably look up the citations.

I use it myself when teaching all the time. "Yes, correct, good" said neutrally in an even, mildly interested voice is the badeline; where the difficulty of the issue or the ingenuity of the answer call for it, I let my enthusiasm for that work show.

Otherwise, the learned expectation of a consistent or highly frequent/predictable reinforcement causes extinction of the response over time...

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 27, 2021, 07:15:30 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

Yeah, it was a really different experience knowing exactly why I was feeling crummy. In normal circumstances, if I'd just spiked a 103 degree fever I would have been pretty alarmed, but as it was it just felt strange. I have a fair amount of health anxiety and it was interesting to realize how much of getting sick is the worry that it could be more serious, the uncertainty about how long it might last, etc.

Of course, we have the benefit of being able to take a day off work in anticipation of symptoms. I actually just decided to cancel my classes the following day too since even though I was feeling much better, I was still a bit tired. Some people really can't just take a day off work.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 27, 2021, 07:16:34 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on July 27, 2021, 07:17:59 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 27, 2021, 07:15:30 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

Yeah, it was a really different experience knowing exactly why I was feeling crummy. In normal circumstances, if I'd just spiked a 103 degree fever I would have been pretty alarmed, but as it was it just felt strange. I have a fair amount of health anxiety and it was interesting to realize how much of getting sick is the worry that it could be more serious, the uncertainty about how long it might last, etc.

Of course, we have the benefit of being able to take a day off work in anticipation of symptoms. I actually just decided to cancel my classes the following day too since even though I was feeling much better, I was still a bit tired. Some people really can't just take a day off work.

Which is why I've long since assured everybody that if they take the vaccine and have a reaction, they're welcome to take off for it.  Nobody has done so, but they know it's there for them if they need it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on July 27, 2021, 08:03:49 AM
A friend and her husband are dealing with a seriously sub-optimal scenario related to this.

She was recently diagnosed with 3(-) breast CA, thankfully no mets except to a lymph node, and was working towards a treatment plan that would start with regular chemo and might go further as a participant in a clinical trial, if needed (they live in Houston and have M. D. Anderson connections via his position at a local univ., and their church). As worrying as the diagnosis was, she was thinking at least this was the best-hope scenario for care.

Then last Friday, although they've both been vaccinated for a couple of months now, she and her husband tested Covid-positive, and while she's currently asymptomatic, he's down with a serious fever at the moment.

Her chemo has been postponed until the quarantine is up, and some side issues may call her participation in any later trials into question, which is worrying her in case the chemo alone is not effective.

There are only a couple ways they could have caught the virus, they went masked everywhere despite their vax status, but however it happened, it happened.

Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water...

M. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 27, 2021, 08:26:40 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 27, 2021, 08:03:49 AM
A friend and her husband are dealing with a seriously sub-optimal scenario related to this.

She was recently diagnosed with 3(-) breast CA, thankfully no mets except to a lymph node, and was working towards a treatment plan that would start with regular chemo and might go further as a participant in a clinical trial, if needed (they live in Houston and have M. D. Anderson connections via his position at a local univ., and their church). As worrying as the diagnosis was, she was thinking at least this was the best-hope scenario for care.

Then last Friday, although they've both been vaccinated for a couple of months now, she and her husband tested Covid-positive, and while she's currently asymptomatic, he's down with a serious fever at the moment.

Her chemo has been postponed until the quarantine is up, and some side issues may call her participation in any later trials into question, which is worrying her in case the chemo alone is not effective.

There are only a couple ways they could have caught the virus, they went masked everywhere despite their vax status, but however it happened, it happened.

Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water...

M.

Well, 90 percent effectiveness means you will see some breakthrough infections and unfortunately the vaccine isn't as effective for people with some conditions. Hopefully, the vaccine keeps her asymptomatic and keeps him from having a bad case.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on July 28, 2021, 10:08:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 27, 2021, 07:16:34 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.

What I'm suggesting is that there is more education that it isn't a sign something is wrong. You don't have to be a science nerd to understand a simple message that these are just symptoms of your body responding well to the vaccine, and yes it may be unpleasant for a day but isn't it amazing that your immune system is getting ready to protect you.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on July 28, 2021, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 28, 2021, 10:08:08 AM
Quote from: apl68 on July 27, 2021, 07:16:34 AM
Quote from: Puget on July 26, 2021, 09:25:36 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 26, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.

What I'm suggesting is that there is more education that it isn't a sign something is wrong. You don't have to be a science nerd to understand a simple message that these are just symptoms of your body responding well to the vaccine, and yes it may be unpleasant for a day but isn't it amazing that your immune system is getting ready to protect you.

The thing I never really appreciated before all this is how cool immune systems are. Most experts I follow seem pretty convinced that the vaccines will be effective against current and future mutations because of how multilayered the immune response to the vaccine is. It's pretty incredible that you basically just show your immune system a virus through the vaccine and it builds up this hugely complex set of defenses that protect you from future exposure to the actual virus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on July 30, 2021, 09:31:19 PM
It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on July 31, 2021, 06:15:08 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2021, 09:31:19 PM
It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)

K16.....not trying to be snarky.  Why do you continue to attend a church where congregants seem not to value the health of other congregants?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 01, 2021, 06:23:35 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 30, 2021, 09:31:19 PM
It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)

Actual mandatory vaccine mandates would be practically unenforceable, would involve an unacceptable level of coercion and wouldn't be effective. Employer and school mandates, on the other hand, would almost certainly make a huge difference and don't involve all of the problems.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on August 01, 2021, 09:08:55 PM
Nice weather we're having.

Pastor today asked for prayer as he decides whether to get the vax.   After service I told him he, esp given his personal circumstances, needs to vax up.   I do not think my view is the majority one here.   I did put mask back on today, and got several respectful comments.... but of course I was alone.   Delta was talked about, it may well be a potential tipping point, but there was also a guy, 60-something, whose daughter has just caught covid... this guy planned to go online today to purchance hydroxycloroquine, and that heartworm drug (ivomectrin?) that is also all the rage amongst the anti-knowledge set, for her.

Nice weather we're having.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on August 02, 2021, 06:29:47 AM
K16......I am a heathen, but I know that your faith and your church are important to you.  I regret your situation.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on August 02, 2021, 07:31:34 AM
Church is a form of family.  We can't just give up on family.  We don't want them to give up on us either, when we're in a bad place.

I've been fortunate in having a church family and pastor that have taken COVID much more seriously.  One of the first super-spreader events in our state was a church that got blindsided by COVID very early in the pandemic.  They lost a respected older member from that early outbreak.  That convinced a lot of churches to recognize that it was a real problem.  Our pastor got vaccinated himself fairly quickly once it became widely available, but spent some weeks weighing the consequences of making a pulpit appeal for vaccination.  I'd rather he had done so earlier, myself, but I understand his reluctance to use his position to make an appeal on a secular subject that has--needlessly--gotten so wrapped up in emotions and controversy.

Sounds like kay's pastor is going through a similar development, but is much farther behind in it.  His reluctance to see reason is deeply regrettable, but if there's evidence that he might still do so, then he needs to be encouraged, not condemned.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 02, 2021, 08:19:44 AM
Some important context. Vaccines are working very well to prevent infection.

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1421934766505398272/photo/1
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 02, 2021, 05:02:23 PM
I found out today that some of the student gardeners are not vaccinated. Some of them are afraid to receive the vaccine. Any suggestions on how to encourage them to get one?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on August 02, 2021, 06:22:06 PM
Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 02, 2021, 07:11:58 PM
Quote from: clean on August 02, 2021, 06:22:06 PM
Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.

People getting sick from the vaccine for weeks and then dying was mentioned. I think they're more afraid of getting sick from the vaccine than the actual virus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on August 02, 2021, 08:41:04 PM
Pray yes, of course.   But we must find some way to cut through the disinformation and groupthink biases (Rachel Maddow has reported that some folks in Missouri are actually arranging secret vaccination sessions, lest they be seen entering vax site, getting vaxxed, etc).  There is also the reality that people, as they age, more or less always get less flexible in their thinking, and more set/ reinforced in those thought processes--- especially when they are in a closed feedback-loop environment such as a small religious congregation.  It probably would not do for me to talk about everything my pastor has said from the pulpit over the last 15+ months (or even before covid, for that matter), nor even more so about what is normal thinking on most of  the congregants' part-- heck, the pastor had to preach against Qanon some months back.   Some of my motivations for remaining in this congregation are not good, but some are, and in any case, one does not just abandon one's church, go back on one's membership vows, for less than serious reasons.

All that said, I reallllllyyyyy would like to know how to teach these folks better...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 03, 2021, 06:10:27 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 02, 2021, 07:11:58 PM
Quote from: clean on August 02, 2021, 06:22:06 PM
Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.

People getting sick from the vaccine for weeks and then dying was mentioned. I think they're more afraid of getting sick from the vaccine than the actual virus.

Would it help for them to talk to a doctor? If your student health is decent you could encourage them to make an appointment to discuss it. That fear isn't irrational-it isn't like they are saying they think there's a microchip in the vaccines. You would think that if the fear is just about the possible side effects, than they would be open to hearing about what the risks of serious side effects from the vaccines are compared to the risk of getting the virus, as well as the risks of spreading it to others.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: larryc on August 03, 2021, 06:45:34 AM
David Frum (I know, I know) had a good column about using our economic power to encourage more vaccinations. Making an appointment for a haircut, medical procedure, restaurant? Ask "Now are all of your employees vaccinated?" If they say anything other than yes, call someone else. When you order an Uber text the driver the same question. Cancel the ride if the answer is no. If Uber tries to charge you take it up with them on social media.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on August 03, 2021, 07:05:59 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 02, 2021, 08:41:04 PM
Pray yes, of course.   But we must find some way to cut through the disinformation and groupthink biases (Rachel Maddow has reported that some folks in Missouri are actually arranging secret vaccination sessions, lest they be seen entering vax site, getting vaxxed, etc).  There is also the reality that people, as they age, more or less always get less flexible in their thinking, and more set/ reinforced in those thought processes--- especially when they are in a closed feedback-loop environment such as a small religious congregation.  It probably would not do for me to talk about everything my pastor has said from the pulpit over the last 15+ months (or even before covid, for that matter), nor even more so about what is normal thinking on most of  the congregants' part-- heck, the pastor had to preach against Qanon some months back.   Some of my motivations for remaining in this congregation are not good, but some are, and in any case, one does not just abandon one's church, go back on one's membership vows, for less than serious reasons.

All that said, I reallllllyyyyy would like to know how to teach these folks better...

If your church has an Adult Ed program, you could either offer to teach a course series on something broader (like, say, "Luke the Physician: Medicinal Plants, Miracles, and Healing Procedures Detailed in Scripture*" or invite two or three speakers in to do a panel discussion (online, of course).

As I wrote that, I said to myself, "Oh, but the tech itself might be self-selecting, if those who know how to/are willing to use Zoom are the same sub-group of that population more open to discussion rather than determinism...." so maybe not, but you mentioned teaching them...and those are bona fide, accepted ways that laity give instruction in religious settings I'm familiar with, and at least some folks might warm to it, and get the discussion going--so it might be worth a thought (WITH your pastor's knowledge, help, approval, etc., of course...).

There are many Latin texts on this (the Beneventan monastic, Constantinus Africanus; Latin translations of Galen and Sydenham, which were in colonial ministers' libraries (see 'The Angelical Conjunction,' for example); as well as online digitized copies of things like Benjamin Wadsworth's 'simples' book), so you could have fun with those, as well.

Anyway, just a random, brainstorm-y, possible thought. 

M. (veteran teacher of many Ad.Ed programs, topical Bible Studies, and retreat workshops who knows they don't all go smoothly, too.)

*There are many books on these from all perspectives including more conservative Christian publishing houses (Logos, Zondervan, and IVP come to mind) and a six-weeks syllabus might be interesting to put together from your own perspective as well. The "plants" part alone might draw gardeners interested in historic gardens (local historical societies often have groups and interested guest speakers) and the caring professions include many folks who can speak from a Scriptural as well as a cultural basis of respect and agreement. - M.   
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on August 03, 2021, 07:25:22 AM
Quote from: mamselle on August 03, 2021, 07:05:59 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 02, 2021, 08:41:04 PM
Pray yes, of course.   But we must find some way to cut through the disinformation and groupthink biases (Rachel Maddow has reported that some folks in Missouri are actually arranging secret vaccination sessions, lest they be seen entering vax site, getting vaxxed, etc).  There is also the reality that people, as they age, more or less always get less flexible in their thinking, and more set/ reinforced in those thought processes--- especially when they are in a closed feedback-loop environment such as a small religious congregation.  It probably would not do for me to talk about everything my pastor has said from the pulpit over the last 15+ months (or even before covid, for that matter), nor even more so about what is normal thinking on most of  the congregants' part-- heck, the pastor had to preach against Qanon some months back.   Some of my motivations for remaining in this congregation are not good, but some are, and in any case, one does not just abandon one's church, go back on one's membership vows, for less than serious reasons.

All that said, I reallllllyyyyy would like to know how to teach these folks better...

If your church has an Adult Ed program, you could either offer to teach a course series on something broader (like, say, "Luke the Physician: Medicinal Plants, Miracles, and Healing Procedures Detailed in Scripture*" or invite two or three speakers in to do a panel discussion (online, of course).

As I wrote that, I said to myself, "Oh, but the tech itself might be self-selecting, if those who know how to/are willing to use Zoom are the same sub-group of that population more open to discussion rather than determinism...." so maybe not, but you mentioned teaching them...and those are bona fide, accepted ways that laity give instruction in religious settings I'm familiar with, and at least some folks might warm to it, and get the discussion going--so it might be worth a thought (WITH your pastor's knowledge, help, approval, etc., of course...).

There are many Latin texts on this (the Beneventan monastic, Constantinus Africanus; Latin translations of Galen and Sydenham, which were in colonial ministers' libraries (see 'The Angelical Conjunction,' for example); as well as online digitized copies of things like Benjamin Wadsworth's 'simples' book), so you could have fun with those, as well.

Anyway, just a random, brainstorm-y, possible thought. 

M. (veteran teacher of many Ad.Ed programs, topical Bible Studies, and retreat workshops who knows they don't all go smoothly, too.)

*There are many books on these from all perspectives including more conservative Christian publishing houses (Logos, Zondervan, and IVP come to mind) and a six-weeks syllabus might be interesting to put together from your own perspective as well. The "plants" part alone might draw gardeners interested in historic gardens (local historical societies often have groups and interested guest speakers) and the caring professions include many folks who can speak from a Scriptural as well as a cultural basis of respect and agreement. - M.

While you could your create some interesting programs with that approach, I doubt it's going to find much interest in a congregation of people who are not academically inclined.  The approach I've seen that works best is what I described our pastor doing above--reminding church members that everything we do is not for ourselves alone, but for others as well.  We get vaccinated (and take other precautions against the spread of disease) for others, not just for ourselves.  We may not feel a need to become vaccinated for our own sake.  We may even resent the way others have tried to guilt or manipulate us into it.  But if there's a chance that it could benefit others, or even allay their anxieties, then it becomes us to do it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Morden on August 03, 2021, 09:13:48 AM
QuotePeople getting sick from the vaccine for weeks and then dying was mentioned. I think they're more afraid of getting sick from the vaccine than the actual virus.

I got really sick from the second dose of Moderna, but during it, I kept thinking "Wow. If this is what Covid is like, I'm so glad I got the vaccine. And I know this is just my immune system learning to fight." Maybe you could find some videos saying something similar?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on August 03, 2021, 10:34:21 PM
apl is right, of course, but even more so one needs to acknowledge that one cannot  teach someone who does not agree with basic presuppositions, basic facts.   This is the issue here.   And the totally *independent* nature of this congregation means that there are no outside sources of authority, or even consultation, to which the pastor is accountable.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on August 05, 2021, 03:28:30 PM
Earlier today, Gov. Hogan announced mandatory vaccinations or regular testing for MD state employees:
https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/08/maryland-coronavirus-update-august-5-2/ (https://wtop.com/maryland/2021/08/maryland-coronavirus-update-august-5-2/)
Posted on WTOP Radio online (8/5/21)
Note: there's a link to a news announcement by Gov. Ralph Northam for VA state employees, comparable to Hogan's. Scroll past ad breaks to view article.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on August 05, 2021, 03:45:08 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 03, 2021, 10:34:21 PM
apl is right, of course, but even more so one needs to acknowledge that one cannot  teach someone who does not agree with basic presuppositions, basic facts.   This is the issue here.   And the totally *independent* nature of this congregation means that there are no outside sources of authority, or even consultation, to which the pastor is accountable.

I really, really, really hate to point out that Charlie Darwin will take care of all of us.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 06, 2021, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: dismalist on August 05, 2021, 03:45:08 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 03, 2021, 10:34:21 PM
apl is right, of course, but even more so one needs to acknowledge that one cannot  teach someone who does not agree with basic presuppositions, basic facts.   This is the issue here.   And the totally *independent* nature of this congregation means that there are no outside sources of authority, or even consultation, to which the pastor is accountable.

I really, really, really hate to point out that Charlie Darwin will take care of all of us.

Ugh, I really hate this sort of pop social darwinism.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Ruralguy on August 06, 2021, 07:34:55 AM
I hate social Darwinism too, but as I say to my students when they ask me what in the class is optional, I say : "Everything in life is optional, including breathing (but then it won't last much longer)." So, if they want to make the vaccine optional for themselves, let them. I think we can try some convincing from time to time, but short of forcing them, which I am against in the public sector (private companies have more freedom), what can you really do that will have an effect? I'm not without human sympathy, but I can already see that at least some see the madness they've helped to create and are getting the vaccine.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on August 11, 2021, 11:55:34 AM
I meant to post this yesterday. Mayor Bowser announced vaccines are required for DC government employees:
https://wtop.com/dc/2021/08/bowser-issues-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-for-dc-gov-workers/ (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/08/bowser-issues-covid-19-vaccine-mandate-for-dc-gov-workers/)
Scroll past ad breaks to read full article. Posted on WTOP Radio (8/10/21)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on August 12, 2021, 05:13:49 PM
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/12/teachers-union-aft-punts-on-vaccine-mandates-504164
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on August 17, 2021, 06:14:13 AM
It was announced in yesterday's opening session that all faculty who present proof of vaccination will get $500 cash.  Students will get $300. 

I wonder if/how many will enroll, get the vaccine money, then drop? (We have extremely high numbers of students who show up until census date, when they get their loan refund checks, and then disappear.) I guess at least it might increase the vaccination numbers, which are very bad around my campus.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on August 17, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 17, 2021, 08:09:13 AM
Quote from: downer on August 17, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mouseman on August 18, 2021, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: Caracal on August 17, 2021, 08:09:13 AM
Quote from: downer on August 17, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.

On the other hand I heard that Moderna provides better protection against Delta, while Pfizer is better against the earlier variants. So having both may provide wider protection.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on August 18, 2021, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: mouseman on August 18, 2021, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: Caracal on August 17, 2021, 08:09:13 AM
Quote from: downer on August 17, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.

On the other hand I heard that Moderna provides better protection against Delta, while Pfizer is better against the earlier variants. So having both may provide wider protection.

There has also been some research suggesting that mixing one dose of an adenovirus vaccine with one dose of an mRNA vaccine gives better protection than either alone.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 19, 2021, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: mouseman on August 18, 2021, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: Caracal on August 17, 2021, 08:09:13 AM
Quote from: downer on August 17, 2021, 07:23:59 AM
Boosters!
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/us/politics/booster-shots.html?referringSource=articleShare

I heard that some people (Angela Merkel?) got one each of Moderna and Pfizer which is mean to be more effective. Would it make sense to get a different booster from the vaccine you originally got? I got Moderna, so should I get a Pfizer booster?

I don't think there's any evidence for that. Important to realize that the benefit for most people is likely to be fairly marginal and the most important protection is probably pretty long lasting.

On the other hand I heard that Moderna provides better protection against Delta, while Pfizer is better against the earlier variants. So having both may provide wider protection.

I think there was one study that supposedly showed that, but honestly, I would take that as evidence that the study was probably screwed up. Pfizer and Moderna are incredibly similar, and they have performed similarly in almost every way.

I'm not a STEM person, but my sense is that this illustrates a real divide between the way experts in these fields look at research and the way it gets communicated and viewed by non experts. If one study comes out and it seems to not fit with previous evidence and assumptions, it doesn't mean that you should just toss out all of those priors. I'm sure there's a complicated balancing act, because you don't want to get locked into believing something when new evidence points to a different conclusion, but if one study shows some weird thing that doesn't really make a lot of sense, and that finding isn't replicated in other studies, it may not even be worth bothering to pursue it.

That study got a lot of press and I've had friends mention it to me, but the expert types I follow on twitter seem to have mostly ignored it. I'm not sure it really even makes sense for people in the field to spend time analyzing wonky results when they seem to be confined to one study. I imagine you just put it in the category of "doesn't make sense, probably means they screwed up in their study design" and only come back to it if you see that result somewhere else.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:59:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

So what would be a good plan? They have to have their first shot by ... Sept 30, and second shot by... Nov 15 ?

Hopefully the requirement of lots of places, that if they don't have the vaccination they have to get weekly COVID test has already prompted a good proportion to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: saffie on August 23, 2021, 10:10:17 AM
Students here have already been heavily encouraged to be vaccinated to avoid mandatory testing for in-person or hybrid classes.

With the FDA approval, the mandate to vaccinate kicks in here too -- first Moderna shot within 3 days of FDA approval, first Pfizer within 10 days, or J & J within 30 days to meet deadline to be fully vaccinated and avoid possible withdrawal from classes. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on August 23, 2021, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on August 24, 2021, 05:43:39 AM
University of Virginia "disenrolled" students who were not vaxxed.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on August 24, 2021, 06:56:39 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on August 23, 2021, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on August 24, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 24, 2021, 06:56:39 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on August 23, 2021, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.

Yeah, it is pretty easy I guess and the record keeping apparatus should be setup.  Here (Canada) there are enough loopholes that students could exploit (religious exemptions etc.)  to avoid the requirement, but I suppose that is part of the system (I assume this is the same in the US).  However, I suspect it is easier to just get vaccinated and all but the most ardent anti-vaxxer would just get it done to avoid paperwork.   
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Stockmann on August 24, 2021, 12:09:49 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on August 24, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 24, 2021, 06:56:39 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on August 23, 2021, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Puget on August 23, 2021, 07:49:31 AM
Quote from: downer on August 23, 2021, 07:10:18 AM
Now that Pfizer vaccine has been officially approved, some vaccine mandates kick in. For example, the whole SUNY system. But it is close to the start of the semester. Many places have started already. Students don't have time to get two shots before the start of the semester. So how is the mandate going to work? Has anyone in charge thought it through?

It doesn't seem that complicated-- you just set a deadline that requires them to have initiated vaccination within the next few weeks. Many requirements have deadlines in future rather than going into effect immediately.

Our university mandated vaccines for all staff l, students, and faculty .  It was announced a couple weeks ago, so obviously there would not be enough time to do the full course in time.  They have simply set a deadline to have your first shot (beginning of the semester here).  Then, to continue having access, we have to have our second shot by another date (mid octoberish).

It is really pretty simple in principle.  Operationalizing and enforcing it could be a challenge, but just making it required will likely get most people to comply anyway.

Enforcement is actually super easy for a university compared to most other settings-- you can turn off their cards (no dinning hall meals, often no building access) and then unenroll them if that fails.

Yeah, it is pretty easy I guess and the record keeping apparatus should be setup.  Here (Canada) there are enough loopholes that students could exploit (religious exemptions etc.)  to avoid the requirement, but I suppose that is part of the system (I assume this is the same in the US).  However, I suspect it is easier to just get vaccinated and all but the most ardent anti-vaxxer would just get it done to avoid paperwork.   

In addition to the paperwork, you could just require the unvaccinated to get tested at least weekly, maybe twice weekly if local cases are pretty bad, no exceptions, enforced through disenrollment. Only the most dedicated anti-vaxxers would fake an exemption and go through that, and people who genuinely fell in an exemption category. You could also implement a rule that the unvaccinated, even with an exemption, can only take a f2f class if there are no online or hybrid options. I don't think the problem is legal or logistical, I think the problem is administrative inertia, potential political interference and poor institutional leadership.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on August 24, 2021, 12:25:18 PM
I think the problem is that they don't want to scare students away and lose the revenue. Not that they are profiteering — just that the millions already lost have sent most universities into a (justified) panic, and they are trying to coax students into doing the safest thing rather than hassling them to do it, which could well make the students cranky and inclined to disenroll and go elsewhere. Hence my own university's stance of "We require all students to be vaccinated, unless they have an objection." In other words, "Do it unless you don't want to."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Stockmann on August 24, 2021, 12:46:04 PM
It's not so straightforward, though. These measures could re-assure students worried about Covid (and/or their parents), which might make them more likely to enroll in that particular institution, live in dorms, etc. Also, if an outbreak does happen, that's going to lead to having to make some pretty unpalatable choices. Finally, there's the potential for faculty taking measures of their own, including malicious compliance, which won't be enough to force admins to change course but can create disruption and all sorts of problems down the line. If the institution is already seriously under threat financially, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back and causes significant numbers to leave - why would you risk your health for a job that is just a temp job even if you're tenured?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on August 24, 2021, 12:56:29 PM
What would malicious compliance be?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Stockmann on August 24, 2021, 01:01:32 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on August 24, 2021, 12:56:29 PM
What would malicious compliance be?

For instance, if admin says you can't enforce masks or vaccinations and they tell you to "work with students" you could do that by quietly dropping any required attendance, with online makeup quizes, tests, etc and if lots of students don't show up for class much, well, that's an unfortunate side-effect.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on August 24, 2021, 01:11:11 PM
That seems like a reasonable decision, rather than something undertaken maliciously, i.e. just out of a desire for spite. I would actually encourage faculty to allow this option generally during present conditions. (Our ICU is full and patients have died in the waiting room waiting for a bed. Not the time to go taking risks, in my opinion, though not in the opinion of our administration.)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 24, 2021, 02:12:03 PM
We can't ask students about vaccination status (which makes sense) or make anyone wear a mask. We can only encourage mask-wearing and getting a vaccine.

One third of my class was maskless today.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on August 24, 2021, 03:20:31 PM
I spent a while today helping out with Covid testing so students could get their dorm keys (for those who have not send in their vax confirmation). For the un-vaxed, we tell them where the clinic is and advise them to get over there pronto. The staff member running the  process told me he mentioned this to one fresh-peep.  What which point peep's father shot a dirty look and said, "Back off."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on August 24, 2021, 04:00:51 PM
Everyone here (students, faculty and staff) is required to be fully vaccinated (or in the case of international students who need US approved vaccines, be scheduled for the first dose) or be approved for an exemption (which I think they are giving very few of) by the first day of classes Thursday. So far the dashboard reports 95% for faculty/staff and 93% for students. Some percentage of the remainder just haven't uploaded their cards yet.

So far so good-- 5000+ tests so far in the past week (required of all students twice a week and faculty/staff once a week) and only 9 positives (0.17%).

With near 100% vaccination, testing, tracing, and continued indoor masking I expect campus to be just about the safest place around this fall.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on August 24, 2021, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on August 24, 2021, 03:20:31 PM
I spent a while today helping out with Covid testing so students could get their dorm keys (for those who have not send in their vax confirmation). For the un-vaxed, we tell them where the clinic is and advise them to get over there pronto. The staff member running the  process told me he mentioned this to one fresh-peep.  What which point peep's father shot a dirty look and said, "Back off."

They should have waited to give the advice, after the idiot father left.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on August 24, 2021, 05:27:27 PM
Probably.

But so often, idiots forget to put on the tags they're supposed to wear, identifying them as idiots, and one makes the simple error of mistaking them for normal people.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on August 24, 2021, 05:48:01 PM
New term: "spreadnecks."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on August 25, 2021, 07:06:28 AM
QuoteWe can't ask students about vaccination status (which makes sense) or make anyone wear a mask. We can only encourage mask-wearing and getting a vaccine.

One third of my class was maskless today.

we are in the same boat, but I think that my first day experience was the opposite - only about 1/3 wore a mask.  I will count again today.

I know that last week at our college meetings, only about 1/3 of the faculty (and NO chairs) wore masks!
We are not going to be Leading By Example! 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 26, 2021, 05:31:19 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on August 24, 2021, 03:20:31 PM
I spent a while today helping out with Covid testing so students could get their dorm keys (for those who have not send in their vax confirmation). For the un-vaxed, we tell them where the clinic is and advise them to get over there pronto. The staff member running the  process told me he mentioned this to one fresh-peep.  What which point peep's father shot a dirty look and said, "Back off."

I think an appropriate response would have been to tell this guy that this is a university protocol, the kid is an adult, and if the father is going to behave in an inappropriate and confrontational way with staff doing their job, he'll have to leave.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on August 26, 2021, 10:55:25 AM
Yesterday I saw a chair yesterday walking to the bathroom WEARING A MASK!!

Later in the day, I got a report from a coworker that the dean had tested positive! 

Maybe it will help to inspire mask wearing, but it seems that yesterday had only 1/3 or so of the students masked.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: waterboy on August 26, 2021, 10:56:49 AM
We have the option of gently asking them to leave if maskless, then we can call campus police and/or cancel class. I won't call the cops on anyone for that, but hopefully canceling class puts a lot of peer pressure on a person. 1st class was 100% masked. Hoping that continues.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: the_geneticist on August 26, 2021, 11:11:40 AM
We have not been told anything about if we can ask students to put on masks, ask them to leave, etc.  I'm most worried about the graduate TAs who do a lot of the teaching in our labs & discussions.  They are going to want to know if they can require students to put on masks (or if they will personally be in trouble if they DON'T require students to put on masks).  It's honestly a lose-lose situation unless we have 100% mask compliance.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on August 26, 2021, 11:14:59 AM
QuoteWe have the option of gently asking them to leave if maskless, then we can call campus police and/or cancel class. I won't call the cops on anyone for that, but hopefully canceling class puts a lot of peer pressure on a person. 1st class was 100% masked. Hoping that continues.

Our options are far more limited.  We can ask once, and offer a mask, but if the student refuses, we are directed to move on- nothing more.
We CAN use a seating chart, but the provost explicitly noted that we can not discriminate by mask choice (like move the massless to the back of the room.) 

From what I understand, we can not even keep maskless people out of our offices!  Im not too worried that anyone will visit my office, either with or without a mask!  but IF I do feel uncomfortable with a maskless person, I will just announce that Im not feeling well and have to go to the bathroom.  Once I return, I will announce that I am going home.  That is my thinking anyway.  I have plenty of sick leave and I will certainly document it so that I am more protected from retaliation. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on August 26, 2021, 01:00:39 PM
Quote from: clean on August 26, 2021, 10:55:25 AM
Yesterday I saw a chair yesterday walking to the bathroom WEARING A MASK!!

Later in the day, I got a report from a coworker that the dean had tested positive! 

Maybe it will help to inspire mask wearing, but it seems that yesterday had only 1/3 or so of the students masked.

Sorry, but this visually-motivated individual read your first line as the description of a four-legged piece of furniture walking with a mask somewhere on its upper regions.

A burst of guffaws ensued when my double-take was over and I'd re-read it properly, in context.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on August 26, 2021, 02:20:36 PM
QuoteSorry, but this visually-motivated individual read your first line as the description of a four-legged piece of furniture walking with a mask somewhere on its upper regions.

Well, they are often wooden faced, inflexible, and only marginally of benefit to faculty.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on August 28, 2021, 08:05:09 AM
Quote from: clean on August 26, 2021, 11:14:59 AM
QuoteWe have the option of gently asking them to leave if maskless, then we can call campus police and/or cancel class. I won't call the cops on anyone for that, but hopefully canceling class puts a lot of peer pressure on a person. 1st class was 100% masked. Hoping that continues.

Our options are far more limited.  We can ask once, and offer a mask, but if the student refuses, we are directed to move on- nothing more.
We CAN use a seating chart, but the provost explicitly noted that we can not discriminate by mask choice (like move the massless to the back of the room.) 

From what I understand, we can not even keep maskless people out of our offices!  Im not too worried that anyone will visit my office, either with or without a mask!  but IF I do feel uncomfortable with a maskless person, I will just announce that Im not feeling well and have to go to the bathroom.  Once I return, I will announce that I am going home.  That is my thinking anyway.  I have plenty of sick leave and I will certainly document it so that I am more protected from retaliation.

Having a mask mandate is so much simpler, easier and reduces conflict. I've had no problems at all with compliance because its just the rule in all classes. When you make it about the individual choices of professors and students, you just get a set up designed to have conflicts and issues.

If you think about it, in the absence of a university wide rule, it is sort of weird to have an instructor urging students to put something on their face. A student is going to find it invasive and controlling. That's why public health and safety measures have to be enforced on an institution wide scale. Nobody thinks it would be a good idea for instructors to ask students about their vaccination records or whether they have had a TB test. That's not supposed to be our job.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: waterboy on September 27, 2021, 08:50:55 AM
Although painful, perhaps this is the only way to reduce the number of medical "professionals" that don't actually believe in science.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on September 27, 2021, 01:49:49 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

We have some of this in Canada as well.  I would guess it is more prevelant in the USA (and in particular some specific states/regions), but that is just a guess based on the general attitudes of the populations.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hibush on September 27, 2021, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: waterboy on September 27, 2021, 08:50:55 AM
Although painful, perhaps this is the only way to reduce the number of medical "professionals" that don't actually believe in science.
In my town, the school I'm at has ~2% unvaccinated, but the hospital has almost 20%. You'd think the hospital could beat us in vaccination, but they are apparently less health oriented.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on September 28, 2021, 05:42:30 AM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Our regional medical system is not requiring vaxxes for its staff.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 06:43:54 AM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

Less good.

I don't think it makes much sense to think of this in isolation to other factors involving labor and employment, however. You don't see many stories about people working at tech companies refusing to comply with vaccine mandates. There aren't that many people who are willing to give up jobs that pay well and have good working conditions regardless of whatever dumb ideas they might have about the vaccine. If they do quit, those companies aren't likely to have much trouble finding people who would take those jobs.

I doubt that nurses are more anti-science than anyone else. I suspect people unwilling to get the vaccine to keep their jobs are mostly not particularly happy with their job in the first place-which is probably about pay, working conditions and particular stresses of covid.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 28, 2021, 07:05:58 AM
There's definitely a big discussion to be had about the role of nurses and health care in US society. I teach nurses-in-training regularly. Most of the classes are 80% women or more. Health care is a massive industry in the US -- isn't it the largest one by some estimates? Why is the health of the US population so bad? Many things point to a drastic need for a change in social priorities.

The health care system in the US is barely functional for those who are not wealthy and it doesn't take more than a small bump to cause major disturbances.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 07:15:50 AM
QuoteThe health care system in the US is barely functional for those who are not wealthy

For the uninsured, 9% of the population.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.

Mercy, friends! Total health care spending in the US amounts to about 18% of total income or output.  That's about half more as a share than in civilized countries. How much more do you want?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.

Mercy, friends! Total health care spending in the US amounts to about 18% of total income or output.  That's about half more as a share than in civilized countries. How much more do you want?

How much of that healthcare spending goes to...

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.

Mercy, friends! Total health care spending in the US amounts to about 18% of total income or output.  That's about half more as a share than in civilized countries. How much more do you want?

How much of that healthcare spending goes to...


  • Insurance companies for overhead?
  • Prescrition drugs at "full retail" expense, including the advertising campaigns?
  • Specialty care because people put off routine care until it becomes a crisis?

I appreciate any thoughts that don't just say I want more.

-Unnecessary overhead, probably, yeah, something not trivial, but not too big.
-New drugs are unnecessarily expensive for regulatory reasons. And one can have all the cheap old drugs one wants.
-Putting off, sure for the non-insured, the 9% of the population.

Fascinating in policy discussions is that overhead or the uninsured are not addressed except for the request for more. Idiotic regulations, including for new drugs, are never addressed.

So, in international comparison, I am sure it's not a question of money. Yet everyone wants more, just like two year olds.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 07:41:41 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.

Mercy, friends! Total health care spending in the US amounts to about 18% of total income or output.  That's about half more as a share than in civilized countries. How much more do you want?

How much of that healthcare spending goes to...


  • Insurance companies for overhead?
  • Prescrition drugs at "full retail" expense, including the advertising campaigns?
  • Specialty care because people put off routine care until it becomes a crisis?

I appreciate any thoughts that don't just say I want more.

-Unnecessary overhead, probably, yeah, something not trivial, but not too big.
-New drugs are unnecessarily expensive for regulatory reasons. And one can have all the cheap old drugs one wants.
-Putting off, sure for the non-insured, the 9% of the population.

Fascinating in policy discussions is that overhead or the uninsured are not addressed except for the request for more. Idiotic regulations, including for new drugs, are never addressed.

So, in international comparison, I am sure it's not a question of money. Yet everyone wants more, just like two year olds.

So you think that medical professionals can just do more with fewer people?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 08:03:25 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 07:41:41 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Quote from: dismalist on September 28, 2021, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 28, 2021, 05:32:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on September 28, 2021, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: downer on September 28, 2021, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 28, 2021, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: lightning on September 27, 2021, 06:23:44 PM
Quote from: downer on September 27, 2021, 07:42:22 AM
I've been seeing news reports and also hearing from people I know locally that a lot of nurses are refusing to get vaccinated and are willing to be laid off rather than get the vaccine. Today is the deadline for the federal mandate for health care workers, and it is a big problem for many places that rely on nurses, because there is already a nursing shortage.

Is the USA the only country to be going through this insanity of health care workers refusing the vaccine?

Good riddance. Most medical professionals believe in the vaccine. Those that do and get vaccinated will probably be glad that they no longer have to work with anti-vaxxers.

I guess there are some concerns about actual shortages when you combine this with burnout and already existing nursing shortages. I am pretty much in agreement with this though. When I end up in the hospital someday, I don't want to be treated by someone who is uninterested in avoiding infecting with me a dangerous disease.

How do you feel about ending up in hospital with a serious staffing shortage of nurses and other workers?
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/09/27/1041047608/vaccine-deadlines-hospitals-fear-staffing-shortages

not as uncomfortable as getting treated by un-vaccinated nurses

Let this play out.

Perhaps this will also result in improved funding and access to medical training for all health care workers, from nurses to PAs, NPs and even MDs. Spaces are limited in programs due to cost, and then practical training is limited again, due to limited resources available to train new employees.

Mercy, friends! Total health care spending in the US amounts to about 18% of total income or output.  That's about half more as a share than in civilized countries. How much more do you want?

How much of that healthcare spending goes to...


  • Insurance companies for overhead?
  • Prescrition drugs at "full retail" expense, including the advertising campaigns?
  • Specialty care because people put off routine care until it becomes a crisis?

I appreciate any thoughts that don't just say I want more.

-Unnecessary overhead, probably, yeah, something not trivial, but not too big.
-New drugs are unnecessarily expensive for regulatory reasons. And one can have all the cheap old drugs one wants.
-Putting off, sure for the non-insured, the 9% of the population.

Fascinating in policy discussions is that overhead or the uninsured are not addressed except for the request for more. Idiotic regulations, including for new drugs, are never addressed.

So, in international comparison, I am sure it's not a question of money. Yet everyone wants more, just like two year olds.

So you think that medical professionals can just do more with fewer people?

Nope. They can do more with more doctors, driving down their wages. :-) The control of doctor supply by the Council on Graduate Medical Education, a cartel of the AMA and the US government, restricts supply. Imagine that for plumbers, or lecturers!

Giving medical professionals without a medical school degree rights to do stuff on own account would be a real boon. [Their wages would rise, by the way.]

The political problem is us: Most people are quite happy with their health insurance, thank you very much.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on September 28, 2021, 09:24:44 PM
Boy, if most people are happy with their health insurance, they're not the people I know. Most people with some kind of health insurance are very aware of how lucky they are not to be completely unprotected, but everyone I know is appalled at the cost, infuriated by the bureaucracy, and terrified of being denied coverage when something expensive comes up.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on September 28, 2021, 10:59:06 PM
And many of those who are happy with their health ins do not actually know how bad that ins is, largely because they have never had a significant health issue whilst on it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on September 28, 2021, 11:28:43 PM
After I first graduated, before I headed back into academia, I worked at one of the big health insurance companies. The company occupied a huge building in a major city. i found that an entire floor of the building was dedicated to people whose entire job was figuring out how to deny people coverage when they made claims. Finding loopholes, obfuscating, etc. For-profit health insurance — well, I believe the technical term is "evil in action."
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on September 29, 2021, 05:22:49 AM
 I grew up in Canada and lived in the US for a while.  I was pretty shocked when I went to the doctors and got a prescription, then got a bill.  I naively assumed that since I had insurance it would be covered, but apparently I went to the wrong hospital or had a co-pay, or something.  It was a very nice hospital, but the diagnosis and treatment were pretty standard.

I think what is missing from this discussion about health care costs is the extra price incurred by delayed treatment and stress.  If people are not seeking treatment early for fear of bills, the ultimate cost to them and the system are greater.  After my experience with my co-pay or whatever it was, I can see how it would discourage early diagnosis and treatment.  Likewise, a patient recovering from cancer surgery or the like, should be focussed on recovery, not stressing about the bill

So, my point is that money can be saved without actually investing "more", simply by changing the mindset.  Now that I am back in Canada, I do not hesitate to get things checked out early and this is key to efficient medical outcomes and cost reductions.  In fact, I have a minor surgery coming up that will cost me nothing.  If I were in the IS, I could see delaying this particular surgery and only dealing with it when it actually causes problems for me, which would be a worse outcome for me and the system.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 29, 2021, 05:50:21 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 29, 2021, 05:22:49 AM
I grew up in Canada and lived in the US for a while.  I was pretty shocked when I went to the doctors and got a prescription, then got a bill.  I naively assumed that since I had insurance it would be covered, but apparently I went to the wrong hospital or had a co-pay, or something.  It was a very nice hospital, but the diagnosis and treatment were pretty standard.

I think what is missing from this discussion about health care costs is the extra price incurred by delayed treatment and stress.  If people are not seeking treatment early for fear of bills, the ultimate cost to them and the system are greater.  After my experience with my co-pay or whatever it was, I can see how it would discourage early diagnosis and treatment.  Likewise, a patient recovering from cancer surgery or the like, should be focussed on recovery, not stressing about the bill

So, my point is that money can be saved without actually investing "more", simply by changing the mindset.  Now that I am back in Canada, I do not hesitate to get things checked out early and this is key to efficient medical outcomes and cost reductions.  In fact, I have a minor surgery coming up that will cost me nothing.  If I were in the IS, I could see delaying this particular surgery and only dealing with it when it actually causes problems for me, which would be a worse outcome for me and the system.

That's a good point. I've had a pain in my knee for the last 1.5 years which isn't very significant. I thought it would go away on its own but it hasn't. My deductible is $4500 so I'm not getting it checked out until it actually starts disabling me.

There are problems when it is very easy to visit the doctor. UK doctors do get quite a few patients who come for no good reason. They are basically lonely or hypochondriacs. They go because it is free to visit and someone pays attention to them. That cuts down on efficiency.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on September 29, 2021, 06:00:43 AM
Quote from: downer on September 29, 2021, 05:50:21 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 29, 2021, 05:22:49 AM
I grew up in Canada and lived in the US for a while.  I was pretty shocked when I went to the doctors and got a prescription, then got a bill.  I naively assumed that since I had insurance it would be covered, but apparently I went to the wrong hospital or had a co-pay, or something.  It was a very nice hospital, but the diagnosis and treatment were pretty standard.

I think what is missing from this discussion about health care costs is the extra price incurred by delayed treatment and stress.  If people are not seeking treatment early for fear of bills, the ultimate cost to them and the system are greater.  After my experience with my co-pay or whatever it was, I can see how it would discourage early diagnosis and treatment.  Likewise, a patient recovering from cancer surgery or the like, should be focussed on recovery, not stressing about the bill

So, my point is that money can be saved without actually investing "more", simply by changing the mindset.  Now that I am back in Canada, I do not hesitate to get things checked out early and this is key to efficient medical outcomes and cost reductions.  In fact, I have a minor surgery coming up that will cost me nothing.  If I were in the IS, I could see delaying this particular surgery and only dealing with it when it actually causes problems for me, which would be a worse outcome for me and the system.

That's a good point. I've had a pain in my knee for the last 1.5 years which isn't very significant. I thought it would go away on its own but it hasn't. My deductible is $4500 so I'm not getting it checked out until it actually starts disabling me.

There are problems when it is very easy to visit the doctor. UK doctors do get quite a few patients who come for no good reason. They are basically lonely or hypochondriacs. They go because it is free to visit and someone pays attention to them. That cuts down on efficiency.

Yes, it isn't perfect, but I suspect the in efficiency from lonely patients is a drop in the bucket (cost wise) compared to the savings of early diagnosis and preventative health care (something no one is great at).  This is one of those points that I feel gets overblown.

This is similar to vaccinations.  They have calculated that a Covid patient that gets hospitalized costs the system about $23,000 here.  Even just from a financial standpoint, vaccines make sense.  This is the argument they should be making to the anti-vax conservatives...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 29, 2021, 06:10:03 AM
COVID treatment is no longer free in the US, I believe. Or at least I heard something like that. I am not sure if it ever really was, but it was meant to be.

One issue is whether insurance rates should be higher for those who choose to be not vaccinated -- and what about people have have immunity because they already had COVID and recovered? And whether Medicare and Medicaid should provide full coverage for those who choose to remain vulnerable to infection.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: marshwiggle on September 29, 2021, 06:10:35 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on September 29, 2021, 06:00:43 AM

This is similar to vaccinations.  They have calculated that a Covid patient that gets hospitalized costs the system about $23,000 here.  Even just from a financial standpoint, vaccines make sense.  This is the argument they should be making to the anti-vax conservatives...

I hadn't heard that number. Even if the hospitalization rate of people who get covid is 1/20, then that averages out to $1000 per person cost of getting covid, versus 20$ (?) for two vaccinations. A 50x ROI isn't bad.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 29, 2021, 01:00:48 PM
Quote from: downer on September 29, 2021, 06:10:03 AM
COVID treatment is no longer free in the US, I believe. Or at least I heard something like that. I am not sure if it ever really was, but it was meant to be.

One issue is whether insurance rates should be higher for those who choose to be not vaccinated -- and what about people have have immunity because they already had COVID and recovered? And whether Medicare and Medicaid should provide full coverage for those who choose to remain vulnerable to infection.

It's always good to be able to charge more for insurance on those who take more risks. It charges more to those who create more costs and it deters. It's been done successfully with smoking, with the extra health care costs covered in the higher tax, and the rate of smoking declining significantly. Higher rates for the unvaccinated should be easy to implement [though not instantaneously, in the middle of a contract period] by offering lower rates for the vaccinated.  But then I would do the same for other life choices that add to costs. Obesity is probably top of the list. Also easy to implement. Health insurance premia would depend on BMI.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on September 29, 2021, 01:34:07 PM
Except that BMI is only very loosely correlated with health, that that is inherently unfair. You need an accurate measure.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on September 29, 2021, 01:59:07 PM
Quote from: downer on September 29, 2021, 01:34:07 PM
Except that BMI is only very loosely correlated with health, that that is inherently unfair. You need an accurate measure.

Like smoking and vaccination. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on November 11, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
What's up with this?
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/medical/health-canada-adds-autoimmune-disorder-warning-to-astrazeneca-j-j-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAQvG5g

I thought the majority view was that the vaccines are not only safe, but incapable of having long term health ill effects, because they just were not that sort of chemical. The only effects they could have would be short term. But apparently not.

Can we expect similar warnings for Moderna and Pfizer?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on November 11, 2021, 03:47:11 PM
Quote from: downer on November 11, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
What's up with this?
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/medical/health-canada-adds-autoimmune-disorder-warning-to-astrazeneca-j-j-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAQvG5g

I thought the majority view was that the vaccines are not only safe, but incapable of having long term health ill effects, because they just were not that sort of chemical. The only effects they could have would be short term. But apparently not.

Can we expect similar warnings for Moderna and Pfizer?

Doubtful. The Atrazeneca vaccine is not mRNA based (Pfizer and Moderna), bur rather is an adenovirus vector vaccine like Johnson and Johnson.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on November 14, 2021, 04:58:11 AM
I live in a purple state but in MAGA territory.  Our covid rate is 4X that of the state.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on December 01, 2021, 09:46:26 AM
Scheduled for a booster shot tomorrow.  Here's hoping it goes as smoothly as the original shots did.  I really don't need to be out of commission for a couple of days.  Especially not Saturday, when I need to be available to help set up and staff a special event.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 01, 2021, 09:50:51 AM
All good thoughts.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on December 01, 2021, 09:55:23 AM
I am teaching from the couch today 36 hours post booster.  None of the individual symptoms are too bad, but collectively, they are too much.

Pretty much the same as shot #2
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 01, 2021, 04:32:16 PM
I got boosted a few weeks ago. My only side effect was a sore arm for a few days (Pfizer for all three shots). My wife got the Moderna after having had J&J - no side effects.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 02, 2021, 10:16:49 AM
Quote from: downer on November 11, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
What's up with this?
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/health/medical/health-canada-adds-autoimmune-disorder-warning-to-astrazeneca-j-j-covid-19-vaccines/ar-AAQvG5g

I thought the majority view was that the vaccines are not only safe, but incapable of having long term health ill effects, because they just were not that sort of chemical. The only effects they could have would be short term. But apparently not.


I don't think that's exactly right. They say cases show up within a few weeks. Other rare side effects of vaccines like blood clots or heart problems could certainly also cause longer term health problems. The point scientists have made about long term effects is that there are no mechanisms by which side effects are going to show up months or years after people get vaccines. All of the very rare side effects, including this one, are things that happen shortly after you get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on December 03, 2021, 06:35:02 AM
I only seem to have a sore shoulder, as I did when I got my first shots.  The nurse who gave me the shot says that she has been giving a lot of them.  There was a steady stream going through when I was there.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 03, 2021, 11:23:33 AM
got boosted today.  the location is at a mall.  lines not too, too long but parking was scarce!

hopefully it will be a minimal reaction!  I dont want to be out of it the weekend before Exams!!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AvidReader on December 04, 2021, 01:42:46 PM
Got boosted last week (Moderna after Pfizer, thanks to Puget & secundem_artem).

Pfizer second shot (in the Spring) was quite bad: I was in bed with fever & chills 8 hours after the shot and manifested every side effect on the list for the next 48 hours, with muscle & lymph pain, fatigue, and arm soreness lingering for the week following. During the initial 48 hours, I managed to stagger to the bathroom only with assistance and could not stand up unsupported.

Moderna booster (last week) was a welcome change. Fever & chills didn't come for almost 24 hours after the shot, and lasted only about 24 hours. Much less nausea and no vomiting. No dizziness, and I was even able to stand and walk to the bathroom without assistance. Muscle and lymph pain, while still severe, only lingered about 5 days (about the same as my flu shot this year). So much better! I'm hoping that any future boosters will be a similar half-dose and inspire similarly less severe reactions.

AR.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 04, 2021, 03:09:33 PM
it has been 29 hours, and I dont think that i have had any side effects.  my arm hurts at the injection site only if I rub it.  (So dont touch!)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on December 05, 2021, 05:47:11 AM
When I got the first Pfizer shot, the jabber told me to move my arm around, pump it up and down, etc.  I did so for both vaxxes, the booster, and my flu shot, and had very, very little discomfort at the site of the injection or in my arm.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 06, 2021, 08:03:21 AM
I got flu shot and a tetanus booster at my physical last week - one in each arm. Same side effects as Covid shot, meaning I had two sore arms all weekend.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 06, 2021, 07:39:06 PM
I was in a meeting this morning to discuss vaccine issues here in the State of Artem.  One person on the call is a public health nurse in one of our southern tier counties.  It's where the stupid starts in our state until you cross the border and enter a state where the real crazy begins.

Said nurse mentioned that in her community, the locals will talk endlessly about their rights - right to carry a gun, right to refuse to wear a mask, right to refuse a vaccine, rights rights rights morning till night.  Cause is says so in the Constitution.  Never a mention of any attendant responsibilities such FREEEEEEDOM types keep rabbiting on about.

Having grown up outside these here Excited States this simply confirms my bias that the US Constitution is primarily a fetish object to fuel the masturbatory fantasies of a bunch of wooly hatted mouth breathers.

Once upon a time, every American thought they were a constitutional scholar.  Now, they're all epidemiologists too.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on December 06, 2021, 09:54:37 PM
Reminds me of the excellent critique of the US that Solzhenitsyn offered to the Harvard campus soon after coming here, namely that Americans are all about rights, and ignore responsibilities.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on December 07, 2021, 05:43:34 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 06, 2021, 07:39:06 PM
I was in a meeting this morning to discuss vaccine issues here in the State of Artem.  One person on the call is a public health nurse in one of our southern tier counties.  It's where the stupid starts in our state until you cross the border and enter a state where the real crazy begins.

Said nurse mentioned that in her community, the locals will talk endlessly about their rights - right to carry a gun, right to refuse to wear a mask, right to refuse a vaccine, rights rights rights morning till night.  Cause is says so in the Constitution.  Never a mention of any attendant responsibilities such FREEEEEEDOM types keep rabbiting on about.

Having grown up outside these here Excited States this simply confirms my bias that the US Constitution is primarily a fetish object to fuel the masturbatory fantasies of a bunch of wooly hatted mouth breathers.



Once upon a time, every American thought they were a constitutional scholar.  Now, they're all epidemiologists too.

We must live in the same area.  My little blood red county had 60 new cases last week.....just as Christmas parades and events are underway.  Unmasked, of course.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hibush on December 07, 2021, 05:46:16 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 06, 2021, 09:54:37 PM
Reminds me of the excellent critique of the US that Solzhenitsyn offered to the Harvard campus soon after coming here, namely that Americans are all about rights, and ignore responsibilities.
I think a lot of Americans were taken aback by Solzhenitsyn's critiques. Exposing Soviet abuses did not make him gauge the US by those measures alone.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 06:50:41 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on December 07, 2021, 05:43:34 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 06, 2021, 07:39:06 PM
I was in a meeting this morning to discuss vaccine issues here in the State of Artem.  One person on the call is a public health nurse in one of our southern tier counties.  It's where the stupid starts in our state until you cross the border and enter a state where the real crazy begins.

Said nurse mentioned that in her community, the locals will talk endlessly about their rights - right to carry a gun, right to refuse to wear a mask, right to refuse a vaccine, rights rights rights morning till night.  Cause is says so in the Constitution.  Never a mention of any attendant responsibilities such FREEEEEEDOM types keep rabbiting on about.

Having grown up outside these here Excited States this simply confirms my bias that the US Constitution is primarily a fetish object to fuel the masturbatory fantasies of a bunch of wooly hatted mouth breathers.



Once upon a time, every American thought they were a constitutional scholar.  Now, they're all epidemiologists too.

We must live in the same area.  My little blood red county had 60 new cases last week.....just as Christmas parades and events are underway.  Unmasked, of course.

Really not worth worrying about anything outside, that's not the risk.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hibush on December 07, 2021, 11:37:53 AM
BMJ (Formerly the British Medical Journal) has a nice interactive f (https://sandpit.bmj.com/graphics/2021/transEmbed/index.html)or checking the effect of various scenarios on transmission.
https://sandpit.bmj.com/graphics/2021/transEmbed/index.html (https://sandpit.bmj.com/graphics/2021/transEmbed/index.html)

Singing is crazy transmissive...unless you wear an N95 mask. That sounds like a difficult combination to pull off. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
I've seen a couple church services using them.

A good singer can support their sound well enough to be heard.

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on December 07, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
I've seen a couple church services using them.

A good singer can support their sound well enough to be heard.

M.

Our church and community choirs (same director) use special singing masks. Extra thick fabric but structure that gets it away from your mouth. I use mine for teaching also. The biggest problem is hearing the people around you because we space out, too.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: aside on December 08, 2021, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 07, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
I've seen a couple church services using them.

A good singer can support their sound well enough to be heard.

M.

Our church and community choirs (same director) use special singing masks. Extra thick fabric but structure that gets it away from your mouth. I use mine for teaching also. The biggest problem is hearing the people around you because we space out, too.

My university's choirs wear these as well.  I also wear one while teaching (because masking is required in the classroom), and it does a much better job of not fogging up my glasses.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on December 08, 2021, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: aside on December 08, 2021, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 07, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
I've seen a couple church services using them.

A good singer can support their sound well enough to be heard.

M.

Our church and community choirs (same director) use special singing masks. Extra thick fabric but structure that gets it away from your mouth. I use mine for teaching also. The biggest problem is hearing the people around you because we space out, too.

My university's choirs wear these as well.  I also wear one while teaching (because masking is required in the classroom), and it does a much better job of not fogging up my glasses.

I just saw these on TV last night: https://vocaleasemask.com/ (https://vocaleasemask.com/). Pricey but I might get one anyway.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: aside on December 08, 2021, 10:21:23 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 08, 2021, 09:49:04 AM
Quote from: aside on December 08, 2021, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 07, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: mamselle on December 07, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
I've seen a couple church services using them.

A good singer can support their sound well enough to be heard.

M.

Our church and community choirs (same director) use special singing masks. Extra thick fabric but structure that gets it away from your mouth. I use mine for teaching also. The biggest problem is hearing the people around you because we space out, too.

My university's choirs wear these as well.  I also wear one while teaching (because masking is required in the classroom), and it does a much better job of not fogging up my glasses.

I just saw these on TV last night: https://vocaleasemask.com/ (https://vocaleasemask.com/). Pricey but I might get one anyway.

Thanks for the link.  These look even larger (and less duck-bill-like) than the ones I have now, so I might look into one also.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: smallcleanrat on December 08, 2021, 11:20:26 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 06:50:41 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on December 07, 2021, 05:43:34 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 06, 2021, 07:39:06 PM
I was in a meeting this morning to discuss vaccine issues here in the State of Artem.  One person on the call is a public health nurse in one of our southern tier counties.  It's where the stupid starts in our state until you cross the border and enter a state where the real crazy begins.

Said nurse mentioned that in her community, the locals will talk endlessly about their rights - right to carry a gun, right to refuse to wear a mask, right to refuse a vaccine, rights rights rights morning till night.  Cause is says so in the Constitution.  Never a mention of any attendant responsibilities such FREEEEEEDOM types keep rabbiting on about.

Having grown up outside these here Excited States this simply confirms my bias that the US Constitution is primarily a fetish object to fuel the masturbatory fantasies of a bunch of wooly hatted mouth breathers.



Once upon a time, every American thought they were a constitutional scholar.  Now, they're all epidemiologists too.

We must live in the same area.  My little blood red county had 60 new cases last week.....just as Christmas parades and events are underway.  Unmasked, of course.

Really not worth worrying about anything outside, that's not the risk.

Is outside still considered low risk in a closely packed crowd? Consider a crowd that's turned out to watch a parade. Isn't it pretty common for people to be standing shoulder-to-shoulder (talking, shouting, and cheering) for an hour or more?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 14, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
A student told me yesterday she got a fever from the (3rd) booster. And that's a 20-year-old. I've had the two, spouse wants be to get the third. But I may not. Do you think they'll be pressuring us to get a fourth shot later on? Enough already.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 14, 2021, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 14, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
A student told me yesterday she got a fever from the (3rd) booster. And that's a 20-year-old. I've had the two, spouse wants be to get the third. But I may not. Do you think they'll be pressuring us to get a fourth shot later on? Enough already.

A fever is just a sign that your immune system is responding to the vaccine as it should, it isn't anything to worry about.

Preliminary evidence is that boosters double efficacy against omicron compared to 2 doses. They don't just re-up antibodies, they help you develop broader antibodies, that are more protective against multiple variants (immune systems are cool that way!).

And so what if you need a fourth shot later on? Do you have the same attitude toward the flu shot, which you need every year?

Look, you've been offered a freaking miracle of science that can literarily save your life. For free. At your local pharmacy. If you don't want it because you're afraid of some minor side effects or just can't be bothered, I guess nothing I can say is going to change that.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hibush on December 14, 2021, 05:06:35 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 14, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
A student told me yesterday she got a fever from the (3rd) booster. And that's a 20-year-old. I've had the two, spouse wants be to get the third. But I may not. Do you think they'll be pressuring us to get a fourth shot later on? Enough already.

By "they" you mean the sars-cov variants. The answer is yes.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support.  The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 08:10:35 AM
QuoteA fever is just a sign that your immune system is responding to the vaccine as it should, it isn't anything to worry about.

Amazing the things you can learn by hanging out with real academics!

Quote from: Hibush on December 14, 2021, 05:06:35 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 14, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
A student told me yesterday she got a fever from the (3rd) booster. And that's a 20-year-old. I've had the two, spouse wants be to get the third. But I may not. Do you think they'll be pressuring us to get a fourth shot later on? Enough already.

By "they" you mean the sars-cov variants. The answer is yes.

Personification gets you an additional three points. Well done.

Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support.  The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

I've got that one solved. If I die, nobody will have to live without me who doesn't deserve to.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on December 15, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
I wouldn't expect an anti-vaxxer would buy life insurance due to Covid. The ones I've known believe that their manly immune systems are enough to fight off this minor virus that is "no worse than the flu." And I always remember the precept: "Many people fail because they conclude that fundamentals simply do not apply in their case." Life insurance and vulnerability to death being among those fundamentals.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.

Still swinging and missing. Hey, you are entertaining again!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 15, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
I wouldn't expect an anti-vaxxer would buy life insurance due to Covid. The ones I've known believe that their manly immune systems are enough to fight off this minor virus that is "no worse than the flu." And I always remember the precept: "Many people fail because they conclude that fundamentals simply do not apply in their case." Life insurance and vulnerability to death being among those fundamentals.

I'm stealing that. That's an erudite way of explaining why some people say and do stupid things.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 15, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
I wouldn't expect an anti-vaxxer would buy life insurance due to Covid. The ones I've known believe that their manly immune systems are enough to fight off this minor virus that is "no worse than the flu." And I always remember the precept: "Many people fail because they conclude that fundamentals simply do not apply in their case." Life insurance and vulnerability to death being among those fundamentals.

so you're sorting people into two categories, the smart people and the anti-vaxxers. love that nuance.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:47:47 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 15, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
I wouldn't expect an anti-vaxxer would buy life insurance due to Covid. The ones I've known believe that their manly immune systems are enough to fight off this minor virus that is "no worse than the flu." And I always remember the precept: "Many people fail because they conclude that fundamentals simply do not apply in their case." Life insurance and vulnerability to death being among those fundamentals.

so you're sorting people into two categories, the smart people and the anti-vaxxers. love that nuance.

Give it up, clown. Putting words in my mouth won't help your cause, and proceeding further only dooms you to being a living example of the quote in question. Hey, have you taken my suggestion from last summer, yet, and pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and doubled down on your efforts to get on the tenure track and get tenured, so you can stand up to all of your left-wing woke enemies at those "woke" training sessions?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 12:53:55 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.


So he could hang around for another twenty years, to further oppress women, gays and racial minorities? Hardly seems worth it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Kron3007 on December 15, 2021, 02:37:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.

Still swinging and missing. Hey, you are entertaining again!

I dont know abotu that.  I know some pretty woke folk who are quite anti-vax.  They will just yoga their way through it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 02:49:25 PM
Quote from: Kron3007 on December 15, 2021, 02:37:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.

Still swinging and missing. Hey, you are entertaining again!

I dont know abotu that.  I know some pretty woke folk who are quite anti-vax.  They will just yoga their way through it.

Let 'em. There are always exceptions (that's why I used "most likely").
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 15, 2021, 02:53:00 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 12:53:55 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.


So he could hang around for another twenty years, to further oppress women, gays and racial minorities? Hardly seems worth it.

Sounds like a dream job for you. I say follow your passions and go for it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on December 15, 2021, 06:00:29 PM
At the risk of sounding like mahagonny, I am also not thrilled about the idea of getting a booster.  I felt sick enough after the second shot that I couldn't manage to find the thermometer or take a fever-reducing medicine.  Yes, it was "only" a fever, but I was miserable.

Still, I'll probably get a booster over the break when I can plan for two consecutive days with no responsibilities.

Quote from: Kron3007 on December 15, 2021, 02:37:44 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 15, 2021, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 15, 2021, 10:38:57 AM
Quote from: apl68 on December 15, 2021, 06:20:34 AM
Most people I know personally have been vaccinated.  But I do know or know of several families who've suffered losses due to vaccine refusal.  One man has left a widow and two children with no means of support. The other losses were older people who died after protracted attempts to save their lives.

Was that guy anti-life-insurance, too?

One would think that guy would at least have just enough brain power to get a cheap term life insurance policy, before playing anti-vax roulette. Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

or maybe, applying woke wisdom to his situation, he reasoned that for the head of the male household to buy life insurance in the event of untimely death is just more toxic male patriarchy.

Woke wisdom does not apply in this situation. If he was "woke," he would have most likely been vaccinated.

Still swinging and missing. Hey, you are entertaining again!

I dont know abotu that.  I know some pretty woke folk who are quite anti-vax.  They will just yoga their way through it.

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 15, 2021, 06:00:29 PM

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on December 16, 2021, 05:14:14 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 15, 2021, 06:00:29 PM

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.

Oh my goodness.  I don't know where you got any of that from what I actually wrote.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 06:23:54 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 16, 2021, 05:14:14 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 15, 2021, 06:00:29 PM

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.

Oh my goodness.  I don't know where you got any of that from what I actually wrote.

It's not an interpretation of what you wrote. It's just a continuing of the discussion. I'll skip the quotation next time. That was just to show that I read you. People using the 'ignore' function 'round here and all.
I sometimes read people I have on the ignore setting. Even when it's painful. For example this:

QuoteAlso, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

...is in the same category with 'showing up on time is racist.'

But it would be interesting if there are wokelings who are against anyone getting vaccinated and there are wokelings who are against anyone being able to not get vaccinated, and they met up and destroyed each other.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 16, 2021, 05:14:14 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 15, 2021, 06:00:29 PM

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.

Oh my goodness.  I don't know where you got any of that from what I actually wrote.

I'm sure it is useless to try to inform mahagonny of anything and I should probably stop, but the mRNA covid vaccines are *way* more efficacious than flu vaccines, even in a good year (remember, they have to guess what flu strains will be circulating way in advance, because *unlike mRNA vaccines* they have to be grown in eggs way in advance). Yes, there are still break-through infections, like with any vaccine (but was your colleague boosted? Much rarer after boosting), but efficacy against hospitalization and death is high.

Current estimates are that vaccines have saved a million lives in the US so far, and that would be much higher if everyone had been vaccinated! Most covid deaths are now preventable.

When people like me say we're running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate we're mostly saying we're tired of having to alter our own lives because some people, for reasons that make no sense, would apparently rather die than get vaccinated.
And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on December 16, 2021, 06:40:05 AM
My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: aside on December 16, 2021, 08:51:28 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 16, 2021, 06:40:05 AM
My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

Mine did this as well.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 16, 2021, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: aside on December 16, 2021, 08:51:28 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 16, 2021, 06:40:05 AM
My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

Mine did this as well.

Here as well. They've done several booster clinics on campus so a high proportion have already gotten theirs. The rest have until early February, or one month after their 6 month eligibility date if it is later.

For those interested in learning more about boosters and why they are so important, I thought this was a good article: https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/15/will-we-always-need-covid-19-boosters-experts-have-theories/

Short version: The immune system doesn't respond to a booster just like to a primary dose-- because it is re-encountering the antigen after the initial doses lead to creation of memory B cells, the booster generates a much broader antibody response. That is, with a booster you make antibodies that will be effective against multiple variants. This is probably why boosters seem to be so effective against omicron, and why we probably don't need an omicron specific booster-- it's not just that they were more recent, but that they produce more cross-immunity. This is also probably why the answer to the question in the article title is "no"-- there may turn out to be benefit from a forth dose, but once the immune response has matured, it will probably suffice (unless there is real immune escape from another variant, in which case a variant specific booster will be needed. Good news is with mRNA technology we could have on in 90 days).

Really short version: Immune systems are amazing! Get your booster!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Anon1787 on December 16, 2021, 04:22:22 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on December 16, 2021, 05:35:22 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 16, 2021, 04:22:22 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.

The above discussion has moved from disease spillovers to money spillovers. Even if hospitals can't take the non-covid cases on account of the covid cases overwhelming systems, a bigger health care sector would do the trick! No different in principle from obesity or diabetes. Just pay, or not. Whatever one likes, votes for or against, or whatever is one's taste.

What is being forgotten is that the vaccines have ended the most serious parts of the epidemiological problem, the disease spillover, the stuff that kills us. What's left is the kind of garbage diseases we have floating around  in the atmosphere anyway. Should emergency rooms have to treat those with flu, or the effects of diabetes? The law says yes. It is not concerned with the cause.

[Given all the other crap in the US health system, my personal opinion is "yes" as well. Others may have a different opinion, but it won't be about chancing a cause of death, on which we all agree.]
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 07:45:18 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on December 16, 2021, 04:22:22 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 16, 2021, 06:39:55 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 16, 2021, 06:27:21 AM

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.

...Yet it doesn't matter whether people who avoid unhealthy habits such as poor diet are willing to accept the lifelong consequence of higher premiums to cover the high amount of treatments for hip and knee replacement, diabetes, heart disease, bypass surgery, etc. that the unfortunate folks with chronic weight issues are much more likely to need. If these people without the weight problems want health insurance they will pay what it costs. We don't really run it like auto insurance where the person who drives  badly pays more because he causes more than his share of calamity. So how would it be consistent to require vaccinations, as some want the government to do?  We have already accepted that people can live unhealthily and society does its best, together, after the fact, to clean up the mess.
Also, letting the government control your behavior to this degree is a slippery slope in my arrogant opinion. Especially considering the nutty ideas some of the democrats entertain. For example, if we let that 'genius' (according to NPR, who now abuses the reputation it once earned as a reliable news organization in favor of partisan propagandizing) Ibram Kendi have his way, his cult gets to decide which mission statement, individual's utterance or policy is implicated (according to the cult, no verification through data provided nor even asked for) in producing a racially unequal outcome and require it to be silenced or changed to what they approve. And other insanity. Of course, people who don't care for this approach could resign their government bureaucracy positions, leaving government to be run completely by the woke movement and cults that they elect. Which they might as well, because their expertise will already have been subjugated to a radical agenda.
So, even if the government requiring vaccinations were a good idea, it's too late, because other tyranny being floated would then more likely get a green light.
ETA: There are, of course, some among us who would be happy to give up all freedom. They are known as 'husbands.'    Thinking for oneself involves work.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on December 16, 2021, 10:25:29 PM
The pandemic is going on two years by now, and we just passed the 1-year anniversary of the introduction of the first vax.  We now know 1) the things work, really well, 2) there are no appreciable side effects from them, and 3) almost all the current covid deaths and serious hospitalization-requiring cases are in the unvaxxed.   Add this to the depressing ability of the covid virus to mutate much more effectively in a semi-vaxxed population, and to the reality that we still cannot vax small children or people with medical reasons prohibiting it (I have a disabled friend who cannot take it due to many crippling allergies, for instance), and the pandemic seems destined to endure far longer than it needs to have, with all the attendant death and misery.   IOW, I am well-nigh done with 'libertarian' evasions here-- as an aside it does sicken me how much libertarianism, generally an atheistic phenomenon anyhow, has infected my evangelical coreligionists.   I am reminded of one Union general who hailed from Virginia (guy's name escapes me) who was one of a decent-sized number of professional US Army officers from the South who stayed loyal to the Union, who said 'I am sick of hearing about States' Rights-- what about the Federal Government's Rights' (paraphrase).   I am sick and tired myself about hearing about individual rights not to vax-- what about society's rights to save lives and hopefully speed up the end of the pandemic?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 17, 2021, 03:52:34 AM
Believe it or not, kaysixteen I get it. However...
Well, I'm sick and tired or hearing about women's rights to control their body. If something inside you is moving and it's not you doing it, then there's one explanation. It's alive. So what happened to society's right to protect the innocent. And now, suddenly, it's paramount?
Social media and other modern phenomena (including this forum), partisan news outlets screaming at you 24/7, etc. have accelerated our exposure to high pitched rhetoric, contact with strangers and our public debate. So we're all getting sick and tired of something. In many cases, each other.
As for me, sick and tired of academics with relatively cushy jobs that provide sick day pay and health insurance telling temp workers they need to arrange their schedules in order to get additional vaccines, when some of us have different outlooks. You don't know me. I could be a suicide attempt survivor.
etc.

OK, someone else's turn next.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 17, 2021, 07:05:54 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 17, 2021, 03:52:34 AM
Believe it or not, kaysixteen I get it. However...
Well, I'm sick and tired or hearing about women's rights to control their body. If something inside you is moving and it's not you doing it, then there's one explanation. It's alive. So what happened to society's right to protect the innocent. And now, suddenly, it's paramount?
Social media and other modern phenomena (including this forum), partisan news outlets screaming at you 24/7, etc. have accelerated our exposure to high pitched rhetoric, contact with strangers and our public debate. So we're all getting sick and tired of something. In many cases, each other.
As for me, sick and tired of academics with relatively cushy jobs that provide sick day pay and health insurance telling temp workers they need to arrange their schedules in order to get additional vaccines, when some of us have different outlooks. You don't know me. I could be a suicide attempt survivor.
etc.

OK, someone else's turn next.

No, I'm good...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: newprofwife on December 17, 2021, 08:24:00 AM
Just got the booster. There was a mixup at the site so I had to mix it up. I told the nurse to give me whatever she had (except J &J). So far, no symptoms.

My husband got his booster yesterday too and he feels fine. He had a fever during the second shot and was down for the count so we are glad that he is feeling fine.

We had hoped that the summer would have been "hot girl summer" being vaxxed all but we all know how that turned out.

Yes, I feel a little like a lab rat with seeing how the mixed vaccines go but this is the choice I had to take. I'd rather be a lab rat than a plague rat. When I got the shots, I was scared but I kept thinking of all those kids and parents in the 50s/the 60s who were brave trailblazers and took the "experimental" polio shot.

I work in person with all the kids and am so glad to have the booster and the flu shot. I am also so glad to work in a place that has mask and vaccine mandates.

None of my co-workers or students are dead from Covid which is good news. We made it to the end of the semester and survived.

Now that I'm boosted, I do plan to go out to bars and fly and see family but I will continue to mask up in crowded indoor places.     

   
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 17, 2021, 01:58:45 PM
Quote from: newprofwife on December 17, 2021, 08:24:00 AM

Yes, I feel a little like a lab rat with seeing how the mixed vaccines go but this is the choice I had to take.

Good news-- there is actually some data (consistent with how we know the immune system works) that mixing is beneficial. Seeing slightly different version of the antigen seems to help develop broader immunity. I chose to mix for that reason.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on December 18, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
Thanks to newprofwife....

I'd rather be a lab rat than a plague rat.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Larimar on December 18, 2021, 09:30:22 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on December 18, 2021, 05:57:09 AM
Thanks to newprofwife....

I'd rather be a lab rat than a plague rat.

That's a good line.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 18, 2021, 11:32:33 AM
Jesus.... I just found out that my brother and his family are not vaccinated. And they want us to come over there for Xmas. My mother is insisting that we all go over there. Good Lord. I just can't deal with the stupidity.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 18, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 18, 2021, 11:32:33 AM
Jesus.... I just found out that my brother and his family are not vaccinated. And they want us to come over there for Xmas. My mother is insisting that we all go over there. Good Lord. I just can't deal with the stupidity.

Don't go. If it's their right not to get vaccinated, it's your right to refuse to visit them.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 18, 2021, 11:59:47 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 18, 2021, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 18, 2021, 11:32:33 AM
Jesus.... I just found out that my brother and his family are not vaccinated. And they want us to come over there for Xmas. My mother is insisting that we all go over there. Good Lord. I just can't deal with the stupidity.

Don't go. If it's their right not to get vaccinated, it's your right to refuse to visit them.

Did I mention that they're all crazy? My brother and his wife got Covid last year and have 'natural immunity.'
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 18, 2021, 03:20:56 PM
If they DID have COVID, then why wouldnt they have natural immunity and be just as safe as the rest of us with 'un natural immunity'?

I replied to the Venting post to fake a car problem, but IF they have acquired 'natural immunity' what is the issue? 

there are a lot of reasons not to go, but if they did have COVID, the vaccination seems to be a lower level reason.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 18, 2021, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: clean on December 18, 2021, 03:20:56 PM
If they DID have COVID, then why wouldnt they have natural immunity and be just as safe as the rest of us with 'un natural immunity'?

I replied to the Venting post to fake a car problem, but IF they have acquired 'natural immunity' what is the issue? 

there are a lot of reasons not to go, but if they did have COVID, the vaccination seems to be a lower level reason.

Not remotely true-- "natural immunity" does't provide anything close to the same level of protections as vaccination.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on December 18, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 18, 2021, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: clean on December 18, 2021, 03:20:56 PM
If they DID have COVID, then why wouldnt they have natural immunity and be just as safe as the rest of us with 'un natural immunity'?

I replied to the Venting post to fake a car problem, but IF they have acquired 'natural immunity' what is the issue? 

there are a lot of reasons not to go, but if they did have COVID, the vaccination seems to be a lower level reason.

Not remotely true-- "natural immunity" does't provide anything close to the same level of protections as vaccination.

Natural immunity may well be stronger immunity.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x)

Sources differ. My Bayesian prior, determined by, at this stage, necessarily noisy information, is that natural and artificial immunity are equal.

No reason to panic.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on December 18, 2021, 05:43:47 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 18, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 18, 2021, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: clean on December 18, 2021, 03:20:56 PM
If they DID have COVID, then why wouldnt they have natural immunity and be just as safe as the rest of us with 'un natural immunity'?

I replied to the Venting post to fake a car problem, but IF they have acquired 'natural immunity' what is the issue? 

there are a lot of reasons not to go, but if they did have COVID, the vaccination seems to be a lower level reason.

Not remotely true-- "natural immunity" does't provide anything close to the same level of protections as vaccination.

Natural immunity may well be stronger immunity.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x)

Sources differ. My Bayesian prior, determined by, at this stage, necessarily noisy information, is that natural and artificial immunity are equal.

No reason to panic.

Assuming you didn't die first.

Natural immunity didn't work so well for the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, Polio...
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on December 18, 2021, 06:14:01 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 18, 2021, 05:43:47 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 18, 2021, 03:48:07 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 18, 2021, 03:32:01 PM
Quote from: clean on December 18, 2021, 03:20:56 PM
If they DID have COVID, then why wouldnt they have natural immunity and be just as safe as the rest of us with 'un natural immunity'?

I replied to the Venting post to fake a car problem, but IF they have acquired 'natural immunity' what is the issue? 

there are a lot of reasons not to go, but if they did have COVID, the vaccination seems to be a lower level reason.

Not remotely true-- "natural immunity" does't provide anything close to the same level of protections as vaccination.

Natural immunity may well be stronger immunity.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02795-x)

Sources differ. My Bayesian prior, determined by, at this stage, necessarily noisy information, is that natural and artificial immunity are equal.

No reason to panic.

Assuming you didn't die first.

Natural immunity didn't work so well for the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, Polio...

What one must understand is that not everyone who catches Covid, vaccinated, unvaccinated, or previously infected, will suffer or die from it. Natural vs. vaccinated immunity to Covid is like putting you into two different gambling joints, each with different odds. Plague, 1918 Flu, and obviously polio, and all the rest are different gambling joints -- they have different propagation and morbidity and mortality properties. My guess, from the noisy data coming in, is the odds for Covid are the same in the natural and vaccinated joints. Others may have different guesses.

Guarantees there are not. Get used to it.

I am here to convey, not to convince. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 19, 2021, 06:57:51 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 16, 2021, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: aside on December 16, 2021, 08:51:28 AM
Quote from: pgher on December 16, 2021, 06:40:05 AM
My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

Mine did this as well.

Here as well.

Mine too. Just announced. This helps Joe Biden politically, which all of our college presidents want. Which isn't a good reason not to get the booster shot, but it is something to notice.

Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 19, 2021, 08:10:17 AM
What's the given rationale for colleges requiring people to get boosters. Is there evidence that people who get boosters are less likely to infect others? Or are colleges aiming to reduce the burden on hospitals?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 19, 2021, 08:35:18 AM
Quote from: downer on December 19, 2021, 08:10:17 AM
What's the given rationale for colleges requiring people to get boosters. Is there evidence that people who get boosters are less likely to infect others? Or are colleges aiming to reduce the burden on hospitals?

Boosters reduce infections, so yes, that reduces transmission. Two doses is not enough with omicron-- the data on that is pretty clear now.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 19, 2021, 08:35:58 AM
QuoteNatural immunity didn't work so well for the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, Polio...

Im not sure what you are saying.   Generally speaking immunity means that you can not get the same illness twice. It does not mean that you can not get sick in the first instance! So someone that gets and survives the Black Plague or polio would not be able to get it again.  That does not mean that they were protected in the first place!

I am not aware of any cases of people getting any of those illnesses listed twice. 

However, I will concede that viruses mutate, so it is possible that one could catch a variant of the disease once it sufficiently mutates. However, that would be true o the COVID vaccine and perhaps the Omicron variant, or whatever comes next.  After all, we get an annual flu shot. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 19, 2021, 08:42:17 AM
Quote from: clean on December 19, 2021, 08:35:58 AM
QuoteNatural immunity didn't work so well for the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, Polio...

Im not sure what you are saying.   Generally speaking immunity means that you can not get the same illness twice. It does not mean that you can not get sick in the first instance! So someone that gets and survives the Black Plague or polio would not be able to get it again.  That does not mean that they were protected in the first place!

I am not aware of any cases of people getting any of those illnesses listed twice. 

However, I will concede that viruses mutate, so it is possible that one could catch a variant of the disease once it sufficiently mutates. However, that would be true o the COVID vaccine and perhaps the Omicron variant, or whatever comes next.  After all, we get an annual flu shot.

There are pathogens where infection confers life-long immunity, but unfortunately covid isn't one of them.  There is pretty good evidence that (a) natural immunity from covid declines fairly quickly (within months), and (b) infection with prior variants seems to confer limited protection against omicron. So you really don't want to be counting on "natural immunity" alone. Now, there is evidence that "hybrid immunity" (vax followed by breakthrough infection) is really good, better than either alone. But you want it in that order, not risking infection without vaccine first.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Caracal on December 19, 2021, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: clean on December 19, 2021, 08:35:58 AM
QuoteNatural immunity didn't work so well for the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, Polio...

Im not sure what you are saying.   Generally speaking immunity means that you can not get the same illness twice. It does not mean that you can not get sick in the first instance! So someone that gets and survives the Black Plague or polio would not be able to get it again.  That does not mean that they were protected in the first place!

I am not aware of any cases of people getting any of those illnesses listed twice. 

However, I will concede that viruses mutate, so it is possible that one could catch a variant of the disease once it sufficiently mutates. However, that would be true o the COVID vaccine and perhaps the Omicron variant, or whatever comes next.  After all, we get an annual flu shot.

Interesting article on this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/sterilizing-immunity-myth-covid-19-vaccines/620023/

Basically, it isn't really clear that immunity ever provides some sort of complete protection from infection.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on December 19, 2021, 04:27:14 PM
Downer asked why colleges would require boosters. I think it's clear that it's because those provide significantly better protection against omicron. After all, schools and universities require a variety of other immunizations. However low the COVID fatality rate for college-age students, it is not zero, so it makes sense to make students as protected as vaccination can make them.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: hmaria1609 on December 20, 2021, 11:54:28 AM
Earlier today, Mayor Muriel Bowser has reinstated the indoor mask mandate for DC:
https://wtop.com/dc/2021/12/bowser-reinstates-indoor-mask-mandate-for-dc/ (https://wtop.com/dc/2021/12/bowser-reinstates-indoor-mask-mandate-for-dc/)
Scroll past ad breaks to read full article. Posted on WTOP Radio 12/20/21
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 20, 2021, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2021, 04:27:14 PM
Downer asked why colleges would require boosters. I think it's clear that it's because those provide significantly better protection against omicron. After all, schools and universities require a variety of other immunizations. However low the COVID fatality rate for college-age students, it is not zero, so it makes sense to make students as protected as vaccination can make them.

If the reason is not to prevent infection of other students, staff and faculty, and the functioning of the college, then the college is being highly paternalistic.

Could a college ever be sued by students for not taking enough measures to protect them from an infectious disease that can cause great harm?
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on December 20, 2021, 03:12:29 PM
Quote from: downer on December 20, 2021, 03:03:32 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 19, 2021, 04:27:14 PM
Downer asked why colleges would require boosters. I think it's clear that it's because those provide significantly better protection against omicron. After all, schools and universities require a variety of other immunizations. However low the COVID fatality rate for college-age students, it is not zero, so it makes sense to make students as protected as vaccination can make them.

If the reason is not to prevent infection of other students, staff and faculty, and the functioning of the college, then the college is being highly paternalistic.

Could a college ever be sued by students for not taking enough measures to protect them from an infectious disease that can cause great harm?

I don't think anyone is saying it isn't for those reasons, just that it *also* protects the students themselves.
I'm sure they could be sued. Whether or not that would be successful is another question, but in other instances (hazing deaths etc.) courts have recognized a special obligation of colleges to protect the health and welfare of their students.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Hegemony on December 20, 2021, 04:27:48 PM
Quote from: downer on December 20, 2021, 03:03:32 PM

If the reason is not to prevent infection of other students, staff and faculty, and the functioning of the college, then the college is being highly paternalistic.


Colleges routinely require meningitis vaccines, even though meningitis is much less contagious than Omicron. It does kill around 10% of the people who contract it. 

As for paternalism, yes, colleges are often seen as in loco parentis.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 20, 2021, 11:45:13 PM
Quote from: Hegemony on December 20, 2021, 04:27:48 PM
As for paternalism, yes, colleges are often seen as in loco parentis.

There are limits to this. A major preventable health problem in the US is obesity, yet I've never seen a college do much, or indeed anything, to target that problem in students. The risk of COVID to health for 18-22 year olds is pretty low. The far larger worry is that they will pass it on to older or frail family members. But colleges are not in loco parentis of family members.

Colleges are not in loco parentis for faculty or staff.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ergative on December 21, 2021, 05:03:47 AM
My UG institution required that students either pass a physical fitness test or else take a certain number of credit hours of PE. Also, lots of colleges advertise healthy options in the dining halls. (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/slideshows/colleges-that-offer-unique-healthy-dining-options)

They're not forcing students to go to regular weigh-ins or anything, but they certainly aren't ignoring obesity as a student health concern.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 21, 2021, 06:15:47 AM
Trouble brewing

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/conservative-website-the-daily-wire-sues-biden-admin-calls-osha-enforced-employer-vaccine-mandate-unconstitutional/ar-AAQkak6
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 21, 2021, 08:23:57 AM
I don't think people have an appreciation for how ugly it is going to be in the next couple of months: We should be ready to see 1m cases per day in the US. On the up-side, the death rate should be lower than in earlier waves, given higher immunity from vaccines and earlier infections, but we'll still probably be looking at 3000-to-5000 deaths per day, plus the excess deaths that don't make it into official stats.

Boosters are obviously the best way out of this, but so far less than 20% of Americans have them and that will be a tough number to budge up, given vaccine skepticism and general apathy from the public.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 09:50:27 AM
Here in Artem State, Delta remains the most common variant, although Omicron has been found.

I had a conversation with a friend who has an anti-vax co-worker at his job.  Said co-worker came down the Covid a couple of weeks ago.  He was flat on his back for 3 days, had a number of unpleasant effects and now, a couple of weeks later, still has shortness of breath.

And the take home point is that since this dude did not end up in the hospital, this would be considered a mild case.

If you are still waiting to see if the vaccine is safe and effective, please understand this - that means you are in the control group.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: FishProf on December 21, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
A friend of MrsFishProf will be visiting the area over Christmas.  She and her latest beau are unvaccinated and were VERY upset that we wouldn't have them over.  She said "It's our choice whether to get vaccinated or not!"  to which I replied "and it is OUR choice whether to expose our family to that; and we choose not".

When pressed as to WHY they didn't choose to get vaccinated, they said "because of all the people getting sick from the vaccine".  When I pushed for examples, it turned out she was referring to people having the expected immune response to the vaccine, as if that were a cause for concern. 

It works, as advertised, and you are treating a feature as if it were a fatal bug.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
Sarah Palin says she'll get Covid vaccine 'over my dead body' (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/21/sarah-palin-covid-vaccine-coronavirus)

Challenge accepted!

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 21, 2021, 04:01:35 PM
Quote from: FishProf on December 21, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
A friend of MrsFishProf will be visiting the area over Christmas.  She and her latest beau are unvaccinated and were VERY upset that we wouldn't have them over.  She said "It's our choice whether to get vaccinated or not!"  to which I replied "and it is OUR choice whether to expose our family to that; and we choose not".

When pressed as to WHY they didn't choose to get vaccinated, they said "because of all the people getting sick from the vaccine".  When I pushed for examples, it turned out she was referring to people having the expected immune response to the vaccine, as if that were a cause for concern. 

It works, as advertised, and you are treating a feature as if it were a fatal bug.

Are they masking, at least?

If not, they definitely won't be going to these places:

   https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2021/12/21/massachusetts-mask-advisory/

besides having already opted out of these:

      https://www.wcvb.com/article/greater-boston-city-leaders-vaccine-requirement-intent-dec-20-2021/38569541

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 21, 2021, 06:10:34 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

NPR is infallible, I thought....;-)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.

I'm not questioning a relationship between vax rates and death rates, but rather between Trump rates and death rates. [Just off the cuff, I was thinking that the Trump rates are a confounder! :-)] The newspaper article is to be appreciated for showing the scatter plots in an informative way. But it ain't good statistical analysis. Don't have to publish their detailed results in a newspaper article, but could refer to a working paper or something.

One mustn't think that everybody at any university knows everything. What's needed is arguments, not testimonials.

It's not preponderance of the evidence -- it's misleading at best, wrong at worst. My guess is it's meaningless.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mamselle on December 21, 2021, 07:36:50 PM

QuoteMy guess is it's meaningless.


Eponymously...

;--}

M.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on December 22, 2021, 06:13:07 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.

I'm not questioning a relationship between vax rates and death rates, but rather between Trump rates and death rates. [Just off the cuff, I was thinking that the Trump rates are a confounder! :-)] The newspaper article is to be appreciated for showing the scatter plots in an informative way. But it ain't good statistical analysis. Don't have to publish their detailed results in a newspaper article, but could refer to a working paper or something.

One mustn't think that everybody at any university knows everything. What's needed is arguments, not testimonials.

It's not preponderance of the evidence -- it's misleading at best, wrong at worst. My guess is it's meaningless.

I may not always agree with you, but I appreciate and respect your clear, rational posts, which are neither snippy nor snarky.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 07:35:56 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.

I'm not questioning a relationship between vax rates and death rates, but rather between Trump rates and death rates. [Just off the cuff, I was thinking that the Trump rates are a confounder! :-)] The newspaper article is to be appreciated for showing the scatter plots in an informative way. But it ain't good statistical analysis. Don't have to publish their detailed results in a newspaper article, but could refer to a working paper or something.

One mustn't think that everybody at any university knows everything. What's needed is arguments, not testimonials.

It's not preponderance of the evidence -- it's misleading at best, wrong at worst. My guess is it's meaningless.

I wouldn't say it is meaningless or misleading. It is a piece of evidence that would be a starting point for doing a more sophisticated statistical analysis - one that would include control variables and thoughtful model specifications. That said, it is certainly the case that this is not particularly convincing. I actually do an exercise in my stats class where students find and present plots like this one from the news media and we break down what they can and cannot tell us as a class. I'd bet this is the thing that stays with students most after the semester is over.


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

Republicans are older than democrats.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/
"The median age among all registered voters increased from 44 in 1996 to 50 in 2019. It rose from 43 to 52 among Republican registered voters and from 45 to 49 among Democratic registered voters."
Older people are much more likely to die when they get COVID than are younger ones.
Also, more men than women voted for Trump. Men have lower life expectancy.

ETA: Does living longer mean you're smarter?

Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 07:35:56 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.

I'm not questioning a relationship between vax rates and death rates, but rather between Trump rates and death rates. [Just off the cuff, I was thinking that the Trump rates are a confounder! :-)] The newspaper article is to be appreciated for showing the scatter plots in an informative way. But it ain't good statistical analysis. Don't have to publish their detailed results in a newspaper article, but could refer to a working paper or something.

One mustn't think that everybody at any university knows everything. What's needed is arguments, not testimonials.

It's not preponderance of the evidence -- it's misleading at best, wrong at worst. My guess is it's meaningless.

I wouldn't say it is meaningless or misleading. It is a piece of evidence that would be a starting point for doing a more sophisticated statistical analysis - one that would include control variables and thoughtful model specifications. That said, it is certainly the case that this is not particularly convincing. I actually do an exercise in my stats class where students find and present plots like this one from the news media and we break down what they can and cannot tell us as a class. I'd bet this is the thing that stays with students most after the semester is over.


Are you sure?


Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

Republicans are older than democrats.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/
"The median age among all registered voters increased from 44 in 1996 to 50 in 2019. It rose from 43 to 52 among Republican registered voters and from 45 to 49 among Democratic registered voters."
Older people are much more likely to die when they get COVID than are younger ones.
Also, more men than women voted for Trump. Men have lower life expectancy.

ETA: Does living longer mean you're smarter?



Your point about confounding variables is valid and (as I noted above) these scatterplots and descriptive statistics should be scrutinized and critiqued. But there have been plenty of studies (which include control variables) showing that vaccines save lives. If Trump voters are getting vaccinated at lower rates, then they are consequently dying at higher rates - even while holding things like age and gender constant.

Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 04:04:26 PM

Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 07:35:56 AM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 07:27:04 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 07:07:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on December 21, 2021, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM
...

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

If I understand correctly, the county averages are multiplied by county population. This biases standard errors, which are not reported, downwards.

Proper weighted regression would use population size to correct the variance.

Little need to get technical: Look at the scatter plots. The high Trump voting counties have death rates all over the map. That's a clue that the statistical analysis is pure genius, lucky, or wrong. :-)

Not as much noise looking at the lower vax rates in Trumpish counties.  You can argue fine points of methodology (that said, they had some number crunchers from Johns Hopkins as advisers) but the trends seem clear to me.  It's clear that vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization and death.  So lower vax rates can be reasonably correlated with higher death rates.

Beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not.  The preponderance of the evidence?  Yes.

I'm not questioning a relationship between vax rates and death rates, but rather between Trump rates and death rates. [Just off the cuff, I was thinking that the Trump rates are a confounder! :-)] The newspaper article is to be appreciated for showing the scatter plots in an informative way. But it ain't good statistical analysis. Don't have to publish their detailed results in a newspaper article, but could refer to a working paper or something.

One mustn't think that everybody at any university knows everything. What's needed is arguments, not testimonials.

It's not preponderance of the evidence -- it's misleading at best, wrong at worst. My guess is it's meaningless.

I wouldn't say it is meaningless or misleading. It is a piece of evidence that would be a starting point for doing a more sophisticated statistical analysis - one that would include control variables and thoughtful model specifications. That said, it is certainly the case that this is not particularly convincing. I actually do an exercise in my stats class where students find and present plots like this one from the news media and we break down what they can and cannot tell us as a class. I'd bet this is the thing that stays with students most after the semester is over.


Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure I would bet that this is the case.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 07:25:33 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

Republicans are older than democrats.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/
"The median age among all registered voters increased from 44 in 1996 to 50 in 2019. It rose from 43 to 52 among Republican registered voters and from 45 to 49 among Democratic registered voters."
Older people are much more likely to die when they get COVID than are younger ones.
Also, more men than women voted for Trump. Men have lower life expectancy.

ETA: Does living longer mean you're smarter?



Your point about confounding variables is valid and (as I noted above) these scatterplots and descriptive statistics should be scrutinized and critiqued. But there have been plenty of studies (which include control variables) showing that vaccines save lives. If Trump voters are getting vaccinated at lower rates, then they are consequently dying at higher rates - even while holding things like age and gender constant.

But if that would mean (1) Darwin's principle is at work, then one should note most of the  people dying of COVID are late in childbearing years or past those years.
(2) people who choose vaccination are doing so because they are smarter, as opposed to simply having a different outlook, then I can show you people who are 90, 95, 100 years old or more who wouldn't impress you that they done the intelligent thing by living so long.

As for the bet -- you're on. I don't think you can hide your far left politics, but maybe I'm wrong.*

*e.g. you might be looking for ways to prove or reinforce the perception that Trump voters are stupid.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 08:13:28 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 07:25:33 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on December 22, 2021, 06:15:53 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on December 21, 2021, 03:30:59 PM

Counties that voted for Trump have disproportionately lower vax rates & higher death rates. (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate)

Darwin at work.

Republicans are older than democrats.  https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/26/what-the-2020-electorate-looks-like-by-party-race-and-ethnicity-age-education-and-religion/
"The median age among all registered voters increased from 44 in 1996 to 50 in 2019. It rose from 43 to 52 among Republican registered voters and from 45 to 49 among Democratic registered voters."
Older people are much more likely to die when they get COVID than are younger ones.
Also, more men than women voted for Trump. Men have lower life expectancy.

ETA: Does living longer mean you're smarter?



Your point about confounding variables is valid and (as I noted above) these scatterplots and descriptive statistics should be scrutinized and critiqued. But there have been plenty of studies (which include control variables) showing that vaccines save lives. If Trump voters are getting vaccinated at lower rates, then they are consequently dying at higher rates - even while holding things like age and gender constant.

But if that would mean (1) Darwin's principle is at work, then one should note most of the  people dying of COVID are late in childbearing years or past those years.
(2) people who choose vaccination are doing so because they are smarter, as opposed to simply having a different outlook, then I can show you people who are 90, 95, 100 years old or more who wouldn't impress you that they done the intelligent thing by living so long.

As for the bet -- you're on. I don't think you can hide your far left politics, but maybe I'm wrong.*

e.g. you might be looking for ways to prove Trump voters stupid.

Your two points are so poorly worded that I can't entirely understand what you are trying to say, but I'm pretty sure neither are sensible responses to my post. This is probably because you don't understand statistics and, therefore, are not capable of carrying on a conversation about control variables.

I also never said anything about Trump voters being stupid. Just that they are dying at higher rates because many of them refuse to get vaccinated. Some people might think that refusing to take a life saving vaccine is stupid, but I did not say that.

I'm in a redish state and have taught plenty of conservative students. Nobody has ever mention my politics in teaching evaluations. I'm also amused that you think I'm "far left," since I support free trade/investment/migration.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 09:20:26 PM
I have never taken a course in statistics, it's true. It wasn't you who posted 'Darwin at work' but you think the comment is fine, apparently.

QuoteI'm in a redish state and have taught plenty of conservative students. Nobody has ever mention my politics in teaching evaluations. I'm also amused that you think I'm "far left," since I support free trade/investment/migration.

Enjoy your state of amusement, then.

ETA: I would be interested in what they might say in, say, five years.





Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 23, 2021, 09:58:31 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 22, 2021, 09:20:26 PM
I have never taken a course in statistics, it's true. It wasn't you who posted 'Darwin at work' but you think the comment is fine, apparently.

QuoteI'm in a redish state and have taught plenty of conservative students. Nobody has ever mention my politics in teaching evaluations. I'm also amused that you think I'm "far left," since I support free trade/investment/migration.

Enjoy your state of amusement, then.

ETA: I would be interested in what they might say in, say, five years.

That was me.  If you want somebody to argue with, at least pick the right interlocutor.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 23, 2021, 04:12:42 PM
I hesitated. Without remembering specifics, I have little reason to 'call out this' poster. I like them.

I find ridicule of Trump voters and the condoning of it a very sad comment on our times. I have a colleague at work, well an administrator whom I run into now and then, who voted for Trump. She's not stupid or bigoted. She just didn't like the alternative. She's pro-vaccination for everyone, but doesn't mean she's in favor of government or employer's overreach. We have had a total of three conversations, but for some reason she sensed that she could tell me. It's not something you ever hear from anyone at work. However, even in our very blue state, (and you could count the Trump bumper stickers on autos in our town on one hand) many actually did vote for Trump. Maybe one in five, one in four. I wonder if she feels isolated.

If I misread and it wasn't ridicule, then sorry, disregard.

Of course, some Trump voters sometimes ridicule Biden or Hillary voters. I wonder if it will always be like this.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: kaysixteen on December 23, 2021, 10:05:23 PM
Look, plenty of folks in my orbit were 2-time Trump voters too, including more or less everyone at my church (one guy voted for Hillary but does not say whether he voted for DT last year, merely that he didn't vote for JB).   I get this, but I gotsta say that it is really really realllly hard to respect this obviously lack of discernment decision.   And, esp if the Trumper in question also regularly self-propagandizes himself with nonsense, and also often regales all and sundry with said nonsense, well....
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mleok on December 24, 2021, 01:46:22 AM
While not every Trump voter is a covidiot, but it certainly seems that every covidiot was a Trump voter.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 24, 2021, 02:50:04 AM
I got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.

(BTW, the COVID-19 shot left me really sore this morning, just like the 2nd dose, while the flu shot left negligible soreness in my arm.)



Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on December 24, 2021, 03:47:41 AM
My vaccinated and boosted sister's east European boyfriend refuses to get vaccinated. He says that it's not what his people do. He wants to move in with her. She said he has to be vaccinated in order to move in. They may split up. They split up and get back together fairly often.

I'm not sure that she will be at any more risk if he moves in. I have thought she should ditch him for some time -- they don't work well together. It's her problem. But it makes for crappy holiday arguments.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 24, 2021, 04:40:12 AM
Quote from: mleok on December 24, 2021, 01:46:22 AM
While not every Trump voter is a covidiot, but it certainly seems that every covidiot was a Trump voter.
One of my best friends is a two time against-Trump voter but she is planning to refuse the third booster even though our employer is now requiring it. She's just a strong-willed gal who doesn't get told what to do. Go figure, as they say.
I'm not convinced there's any guarantee when or if COVID will go away for good if everyone gets vaccinated. It's just we're hearing from people who are perhaps too afraid to go on living without lashing out at someone, or people who enjoy thinking they are smarter than everyone else, which has been an often noticed feature of the left.
Same people who say things like 'so if you're against abortion, don't have one.' Whereas I say 'if you're against abortion, don't get aborted.'
I guess many of us make fun of others after deciding they're asking for it.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: mahagonny on December 24, 2021, 06:50:22 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on December 24, 2021, 04:40:12 AM
Quote from: mleok on December 24, 2021, 01:46:22 AM
While not every Trump voter is a covidiot, but it certainly seems that every covidiot was a Trump voter.
One of my best friends is a two time against-Trump voter but she is planning to refuse the third booster even though our employer is now requiring it. She's just a strong-willed gal who doesn't get told what to do. Go figure, as they say.
I'm not convinced there's any guarantee when or if COVID will go away for good if everyone gets vaccinated. It's just we're hearing from people who are perhaps too afraid to go on living without lashing out at someone, or people who enjoy thinking they are smarter than everyone else, which has been an often noticed feature of the left.
Same people who say things like 'so if you're against abortion, don't have one.' Whereas I say 'if you're against abortion, don't get aborted.'
I guess many of us make fun of others after deciding they're asking for it.

Quote from: lightning on December 24, 2021, 02:50:04 AM
I got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.
I would schedule them two weeks apart.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: clean on December 24, 2021, 07:29:38 AM
QuoteI got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.

In October I got the Shingles, pneumonia and tetnis vaccines on the same day.  Shingles was in one arm and the others in the other arm.  It was not too bad, but the shingles one had the most side effects. 

On the one hand, they would probably like to have you do one at a time, but as a practical matter, when I asked about it, they said, "you are here now, and this will mean fewer visits and we know that you can get them if we do it today".
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: ciao_yall on December 24, 2021, 08:35:06 AM
Quote from: clean on December 24, 2021, 07:29:38 AM
QuoteI got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.

In October I got the Shingles, pneumonia and tetnis vaccines on the same day.  Shingles was in one arm and the others in the other arm.  It was not too bad, but the shingles one had the most side effects. 

On the one hand, they would probably like to have you do one at a time, but as a practical matter, when I asked about it, they said, "you are here now, and this will mean fewer visits and we know that you can get them if we do it today".

1) You can put all the shots in one arm. I assume they pick different spots.

2) May as well get it done, and get all the side effects at once.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: secundem_artem on December 24, 2021, 09:31:02 AM
Quote from: lightning on December 24, 2021, 02:50:04 AM
I got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.

(BTW, the COVID-19 shot left me really sore this morning, just like the 2nd dose, while the flu shot left negligible soreness in my arm.)

Still in the arm, but an inch or two away from the first site. 
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: lightning on December 24, 2021, 10:37:45 AM
Quote from: clean on December 24, 2021, 07:29:38 AM
QuoteI got two shots last night--one for the flu and one for COVID-19 (booster shot). I asked for one shot in each upper arm.

I'm thinking that if I ever have to get a 3rd shot for something else at the same time as the other two, where would they stick the 3rd needle? My leg? Serious question.

In October I got the Shingles, pneumonia and tetnis vaccines on the same day.  Shingles was in one arm and the others in the other arm.  It was not too bad, but the shingles one had the most side effects. 

On the one hand, they would probably like to have you do one at a time, but as a practical matter, when I asked about it, they said, "you are here now, and this will mean fewer visits and we know that you can get them if we do it today".

Right now, just thinking about two shots in one arm makes me sore.

I suppose that's the price I have to pay, if I don't want to make multiple trips to the clinic for multiple vaccinations.   
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Juvenal on December 26, 2021, 02:57:54 PM
Is there something wrong with my arm?  In the past year: Shingerix, tetanus, flu, B12, and all three Pfizers.  No after-effects, save an afternoon's fatigue with Pfizer2.  It would seem that either my body is rejecting these prophylaxes--"Ho, hum"--or they are being carefully stored for future needs.  Time will tell (and that means if I sicken or not).  I'd also say that although I was raised in the era of smallpox vaxxing, I can find no sign of the little arm scar that was its token.  Hmm.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: nebo113 on December 27, 2021, 05:34:40 AM
Juvenal......My little sign of smallpox vax has also evaporated.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: sinenomine on December 27, 2021, 06:45:49 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on December 27, 2021, 05:34:40 AM
Juvenal......My little sign of smallpox vax has also evaporated.

Mine (on my leg) has also faded away.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: AmLitHist on December 27, 2021, 06:47:23 AM
I never got the scab from the smallpox vax when I was little.  They gave me the shot twice, to be sure, and neither one reacted.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: dismalist on January 08, 2022, 02:33:21 PM
Maybe we've found the optimal policy to induce vaccination. Quebec experienced a fourfold increase in the daily rate of first vaccinations upon implementing it.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadruple-in-quebec-ahead-of-restrictions-at-liquor-and-cannabis-stores-1.5731327 (https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/first-dose-vaccinations-quadruple-in-quebec-ahead-of-restrictions-at-liquor-and-cannabis-stores-1.5731327)
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Juvenal on January 09, 2022, 11:32:29 AM
Oh, wow!
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: jimbogumbo on January 13, 2022, 02:24:38 PM
More from Quebec: https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072775645/quebec-covid-19-unvaccinated-tax
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on February 05, 2022, 05:16:10 AM
Four Ohio universities sued by students, employees challenging schools' COVID-19 policies
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/education/2022/01/08/students-employees-four-ohio-colleges-sue-over-covid-19-policies/9045575002/

This is mainly about the vaccine mandate from some private universities. It will be interesting to see if the lawsuits get anywhere.

I can't help but notice the other headline for an article linked to in the piece: Greater Columbus colleges cautiously approach spring semester as COVID-19 cases surge.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: pgher on February 05, 2022, 05:27:24 AM
Quote from: downer on February 05, 2022, 05:16:10 AM
Four Ohio universities sued by students, employees challenging schools' COVID-19 policies
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/education/2022/01/08/students-employees-four-ohio-colleges-sue-over-covid-19-policies/9045575002/

This is mainly about the vaccine mandate from some private universities. It will be interesting to see if the lawsuits get anywhere.

I can't help but notice the other headline for an article linked to in the piece: Greater Columbus colleges cautiously approach spring semester as COVID-19 cases surge.

Slight correction: they are suing public universities.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on February 05, 2022, 05:43:20 AM
Yes, my mistake. Thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: downer on February 25, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
Religious exemptions for COVID vaccines: I've seen recent claims that refers to "the use of cell lines from aborted fetuses in the research, development and production of vaccines."

https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-lawsuit-religious-exemption-vaccine-connecticut-20220224-qwqb5txhezgeblrn74llld23ou-story.html

Anyone know which vaccines that was for? Seems like it would have been a big issue if it is true and had been widely known.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Puget on February 25, 2022, 12:15:20 PM
Quote from: downer on February 25, 2022, 11:23:49 AM
Religious exemptions for COVID vaccines: I've seen recent claims that refers to "the use of cell lines from aborted fetuses in the research, development and production of vaccines."

https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-lawsuit-religious-exemption-vaccine-connecticut-20220224-qwqb5txhezgeblrn74llld23ou-story.html

Anyone know which vaccines that was for? Seems like it would have been a big issue if it is true and had been widely known.

Early stages of development of most vaccines involves cell lines derived from long-ago aborted fetuses. The production of the vaccines does not.
The same is true of most medications, including most common over the counter medications that everyone raising this issue no doubt uses. If you want a religious exemption based on this, fine, but you also have to stop using most modern medicine then.
Title: Re: Vaccination nation
Post by: Liquidambar on February 25, 2022, 12:41:23 PM
The J&J COVID vaccine uses fetal cell lines for production, in contrast to the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines that used fetal cell lines for development but not for production.  (source (https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-johnson-aborted/fact-check-johnson-johnsons-covid-19-vaccine-does-not-contain-aborted-fetal-cells-idUSL1N2LU1T9) re COVID vaccines and another source (https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/fetal-tissues) mentioning some other vaccines)  Some people draw an ethical distinction based on whether the fetal cell use is in previous testing or whether it's actively being used to produce something that will be injected into them.