Author Topic: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?  (Read 1734 times)

dismalist

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #135 on: January 11, 2022, 02:08:55 PM »
Why would you want Democrats to give up Waters? She's close to retirement. Make Dems give up an up and comer like AOC.

Naah, keep them both. Like red flags to a bull for the Republicans! :-)
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
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mahagonny

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #136 on: January 11, 2022, 03:23:27 PM »
Why would you want Democrats to give up Waters? She's close to retirement. Make Dems give up an up and comer like AOC.

Naah, keep them both. Like red flags to a bull for the Republicans! :-)

Hillary Clinton with a twenty year head start. Her new riff, 'you're angry because you're not good enough to get me in the sack' is still playing out.
Grouchy about Dr. Fauci

dismalist

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #137 on: January 11, 2022, 09:19:18 PM »
It is bad to let oneself get sucked into party politics. Better to think of structure. I like symmetry.

Many of us think a return to the center is a good answer. The center being the median voter on any particular issue. On a single issue, the median always wins [well, conditional on technical stuff].

But what if the median voters are few in number? We essentially have that now: A bimodal distribution of preferences.

But bimodal can mean a lot -- big differences in modes? Steep change of number of voters away from median preferences? Looks like neither side has an incentive to move to the median on account they'd lose more voters [staying home, protesting, and so on] than gaining them.

An extreme case was slavery. Median voter might have wanted a little slavery. But there were very few of those, so no, it took a civil war.

Abortion rights contemporaneously are similar. Let's not have a civil war over that.

This shows that in an electorate with bi-modally dispersed preferences -- us -- nobody is happy with the democratic outcome, even if it's fair and square.

Hence, a democratic cure might be more federalism. It can't be a uniform standard on everything.

But this at least explains the noise, trying to pull voters into one or the other camp with words rather than policy promises. The words cost nothing.



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mahagonny

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #138 on: January 11, 2022, 11:51:58 PM »
Symmetry/reciprocity are good. It would be good to agree it's unacceptable to invade the Capitol Buildings or other government property with talk of hanging Mike Pence because you have doubts about vote tabulating, and it would be good to agree it's unacceptable to pointedly neglect law enforcement, public safety or encourage burglary of retail and setting fire to police precinct/cruisers and other places because George Floyd was brutalized and died in police custody. We won't get one without an agreement to both.
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dismalist

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2022, 09:21:41 AM »
It is bad to let oneself get sucked into party politics. Better to think of structure. I like symmetry.

Many of us think a return to the center is a good answer. The center being the median voter on any particular issue. On a single issue, the median always wins [well, conditional on technical stuff].

But what if the median voters are few in number? We essentially have that now: A bimodal distribution of preferences.

But bimodal can mean a lot -- big differences in modes? Steep change of number of voters away from median preferences? Looks like neither side has an incentive to move to the median on account they'd lose more voters [staying home, protesting, and so on] than gaining them.

An extreme case was slavery. Median voter might have wanted a little slavery. But there were very few of those, so no, it took a civil war.

Abortion rights contemporaneously are similar. Let's not have a civil war over that.

This shows that in an electorate with bi-modally dispersed preferences -- us -- nobody is happy with the democratic outcome, even if it's fair and square.

Hence, a democratic cure might be more federalism. It can't be a uniform standard on everything.

But this at least explains the noise, trying to pull voters into one or the other camp with words rather than policy promises. The words cost nothing.

Looks like Hilary Clinton disagrees. She is setting herself up to run in 2024. She sees her chance in moving to the center.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-2024-comeback-president-biden-harris-democrat-nominee-race-2022-midterm-loss-11641914951
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
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kaysixteen

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #140 on: January 12, 2022, 10:50:48 PM »
I did not get past the three or four sentence free part before the paywall hit, but, well... the Democrats would just insult Americans if they attempted to foist Hillary-- whom I reluctantly voted for in the 2016 general-- on us again.   Millions of Americans have voted for Dem presidential candidates and would easily be convinced to do so again, but do not want Hillary Clinton ever to be president.  That may offend some secular denizens of Cambridge and Wellesley faculty lounges, but true enough it remains, and a party coup replacing Biden/ Harris with her would almost certainly give us more Trump... or someone much much worse.

mamselle

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #141 on: January 13, 2022, 07:39:52 PM »
The founder of Oath Keepers has been charged with seditious conspiracy:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7-KxEIeeqQ

M.
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Sun_Worshiper

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2022, 06:32:23 AM »
There is a good discussion of this topic on the latest 538 podcast. The professor they interview notes (as some posters here have) that the quality of US democracy has declined according to every measure that researchers use. The host pushes back in a pretty smart, data driven way.

Ruralguy

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2022, 06:46:47 AM »
A number of sources are dismissing the Hillary thing.

My guess is that this is trolling (by Fox News sources) that is mainly meant to promote nasty infighting (and outfighting that can get the Republican base all bothered when there isn't a rebellion to defend).

marshwiggle

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2022, 08:10:01 AM »
A number of sources are dismissing the Hillary thing.

My guess is that this is trolling (by Fox News sources) that is mainly meant to promote nasty infighting (and outfighting that can get the Republican base all bothered when there isn't a rebellion to defend).

As far as the state of democracy, in the remote possibility that 2024 once more was Trump vs. Clinton, THAT would indicate a very sad state of affairs. On both sides.
It takes so little to be above average.

mamselle

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2022, 10:38:40 AM »
Clinton is principled, experienced, and savvy.

So one part of that statement needs re-consideration.

M.
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Reprove not a scorner, lest they hate thee: rebuke the wise, and they will love thee.

Give instruction to the wise, and they will be yet wiser: teach the just, and they will increase in learning.

dismalist

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2022, 10:50:44 AM »
A number of sources are dismissing the Hillary thing.

My guess is that this is trolling (by Fox News sources) that is mainly meant to promote nasty infighting (and outfighting that can get the Republican base all bothered when there isn't a rebellion to defend).

As far as the state of democracy, in the remote possibility that 2024 once more was Trump vs. Clinton, THAT would indicate a very sad state of affairs. On both sides.

Nah, it would be a lot of fun watching the replay!
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
--Pogo

marshwiggle

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2022, 11:01:16 AM »
Clinton is principled, experienced, and savvy.

So one part of that statement needs re-consideration.

M.

I believe you have to go back to 1956 to find someone who lost an election who was brought back as the candidate for a subsequent one. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing again and expecting a different result.
It takes so little to be above average.

mahagonny

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2022, 11:02:54 AM »
I would hope for Hillary to get the nomination rather than Biden. She's smarter, at least.
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jimbogumbo

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Re: How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2022, 11:10:13 AM »
Clinton is principled, experienced, and savvy.

So one part of that statement needs re-consideration.

M.

I believe you have to go back to 1956 to find someone who lost an election who was brought back as the candidate for a subsequent one. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing again and expecting a different result.

Nixon lost in 1960, and then won in1968.