Author Topic: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian  (Read 966 times)

marshwiggle

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2022, 01:29:55 PM »
High things near the water block the view from lower things behind. It becomes a height arms race. The problem with completely unfettered markets is that it allows the richest jerks to basically screw everyone else.
I'm not a socialist by any means, but just allowing the richest and most powerful to do whatever they want doesn't make for a pleasant society.

Never meant to imply a Houston, which works because it is surrounded by desert. If you don't build up, completely fettered, not unfettered, markets make sure the original owners win, and politicos make sure it's kept that way.

Building up is going to be part of the solution, but it needs to be done carefully so that it doesn't just shaft people willy-nilly. Part of the point of regulation is to have a long term plan, which is public, so everyone can plan ahead about where things are going, rather than waking up one morning and finding out some developer has just blown the whole existing vibe to pieces.
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dismalist

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2022, 01:39:14 PM »
High things near the water block the view from lower things behind. It becomes a height arms race. The problem with completely unfettered markets is that it allows the richest jerks to basically screw everyone else.
I'm not a socialist by any means, but just allowing the richest and most powerful to do whatever they want doesn't make for a pleasant society.

Never meant to imply a Houston, which works because it is surrounded by desert. If you don't build up, completely fettered, not unfettered, markets make sure the original owners win, and politicos make sure it's kept that way.

Building up is going to be part of the solution, but it needs to be done carefully so that it doesn't just shaft people willy-nilly. Part of the point of regulation is to have a long term plan, which is public, so everyone can plan ahead about where things are going, rather than waking up one morning and finding out some developer has just blown the whole existing vibe to pieces.

Look at it the other way around: The property owners get their way, unhindered by politicos. The low paid move out, putting upward pressure on their wages in Monaco or Vancouver. The low paid then become higher paid and can then afford to live there. Once again, a self correcting problem.

What, me worry? :-)
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
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Kron3007

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2022, 02:18:02 PM »
High things near the water block the view from lower things behind. It becomes a height arms race. The problem with completely unfettered markets is that it allows the richest jerks to basically screw everyone else.
I'm not a socialist by any means, but just allowing the richest and most powerful to do whatever they want doesn't make for a pleasant society.

Never meant to imply a Houston, which works because it is surrounded by desert. If you don't build up, completely fettered, not unfettered, markets make sure the original owners win, and politicos make sure it's kept that way.

Building up is going to be part of the solution, but it needs to be done carefully so that it doesn't just shaft people willy-nilly. Part of the point of regulation is to have a long term plan, which is public, so everyone can plan ahead about where things are going, rather than waking up one morning and finding out some developer has just blown the whole existing vibe to pieces.

Look at it the other way around: The property owners get their way, unhindered by politicos. The low paid move out, putting upward pressure on their wages in Monaco or Vancouver. The low paid then become higher paid and can then afford to live there. Once again, a self correcting problem.

What, me worry? :-)

Except that it isn't self correcting, or not at a quick enough rate to really help (self correcting in this sense is reactive).  If salaries were keeping pace with housing, this would not be an issue, but they are not.   

As for the claim that demand is going up because we are getting richer, that could be partially true but prices are out-pacing salary growth so it is only part of the story.  Sure, we are getting richer (you could argue that has stalled given inflation), but not as fast as prices are rising. 

Personally, I feel this is all a result of poor planning and regulation.  We know the population growth since it is almost entirely fueled through immigration (which should be largely tied to housing demand), yet we failed to ensure there is adequate housing development to supply the easily predicted need.  There is also a case to prevent foreign buyers (in some regions where this is a real issue) and tax people more on housing they are using as rental properties. 

It all just depends on priorities.  The issue with our democracies is that their priority is largely being re-elected.  This makes them very unlikely to make tough decisions that piss people off but are the best choice for the country in the longer term.  I feel this is one reason China is overtaking the West in many regards....

   

 

dismalist

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2022, 02:28:16 PM »
High things near the water block the view from lower things behind. It becomes a height arms race. The problem with completely unfettered markets is that it allows the richest jerks to basically screw everyone else.
I'm not a socialist by any means, but just allowing the richest and most powerful to do whatever they want doesn't make for a pleasant society.

Never meant to imply a Houston, which works because it is surrounded by desert. If you don't build up, completely fettered, not unfettered, markets make sure the original owners win, and politicos make sure it's kept that way.

Building up is going to be part of the solution, but it needs to be done carefully so that it doesn't just shaft people willy-nilly. Part of the point of regulation is to have a long term plan, which is public, so everyone can plan ahead about where things are going, rather than waking up one morning and finding out some developer has just blown the whole existing vibe to pieces.

Look at it the other way around: The property owners get their way, unhindered by politicos. The low paid move out, putting upward pressure on their wages in Monaco or Vancouver. The low paid then become higher paid and can then afford to live there. Once again, a self correcting problem.

What, me worry? :-)

Except that it isn't self correcting, or not at a quick enough rate to really help (self correcting in this sense is reactive).  If salaries were keeping pace with housing, this would not be an issue, but they are not.   

As for the claim that demand is going up because we are getting richer, that could be partially true but prices are out-pacing salary growth so it is only part of the story.  Sure, we are getting richer (you could argue that has stalled given inflation), but not as fast as prices are rising. 

Personally, I feel this is all a result of poor planning and regulation. We know the population growth since it is almost entirely fueled through immigration (which should be largely tied to housing demand), yet we failed to ensure there is adequate housing development to supply the easily predicted need.  There is also a case to prevent foreign buyers (in some regions where this is a real issue) and tax people more on housing they are using as rental properties. 

It all just depends on priorities.  The issue with our democracies is that their priority is largely being re-elected.  This makes them very unlikely to make tough decisions that piss people off but are the best choice for the country in the longer term.  I feel this is one reason China is overtaking the West in many regards....

 

Yup, totally agreed: Bad regulation in the face of increasing demand. Don't build near me.

[Please do not worry about China. Perhaps subject of another thread, perhaps not.]
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
--Pogo

marshwiggle

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2022, 04:17:00 AM »

As for the claim that demand is going up because we are getting richer, that could be partially true but prices are out-pacing salary growth so it is only part of the story.  Sure, we are getting richer (you could argue that has stalled given inflation), but not as fast as prices are rising. 

Personally, I feel this is all a result of poor planning and regulation.  We know the population growth since it is almost entirely fueled through immigration (which should be largely tied to housing demand), yet we failed to ensure there is adequate housing development to supply the easily predicted need.  There is also a case to prevent foreign buyers (in some regions where this is a real issue) and tax people more on housing they are using as rental properties. 

It all just depends on priorities.  The issue with our democracies is that their priority is largely being re-elected.  This makes them very unlikely to make tough decisions that piss people off but are the best choice for the country in the longer term.  I feel this is one reason China is overtaking the West in many regards....


The biggest driver of rising house prices is the sustained period of historically low interest rates. When interest rates finally rise, prices will have to come down. People can take on monstrous amounts of debt because it's so cheap to carry right now. When I bought my first car, it was the other end of the interest rate spectrum, and I was paying 20% interest. When mortgage rates rise to something more like a 20 year average, there will be a big "correction".
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dismalist

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Re: American far right isn't fascist, it's libertarian
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2022, 02:18:59 PM »

As for the claim that demand is going up because we are getting richer, that could be partially true but prices are out-pacing salary growth so it is only part of the story.  Sure, we are getting richer (you could argue that has stalled given inflation), but not as fast as prices are rising. 

Personally, I feel this is all a result of poor planning and regulation.  We know the population growth since it is almost entirely fueled through immigration (which should be largely tied to housing demand), yet we failed to ensure there is adequate housing development to supply the easily predicted need.  There is also a case to prevent foreign buyers (in some regions where this is a real issue) and tax people more on housing they are using as rental properties. 

It all just depends on priorities.  The issue with our democracies is that their priority is largely being re-elected.  This makes them very unlikely to make tough decisions that piss people off but are the best choice for the country in the longer term.  I feel this is one reason China is overtaking the West in many regards....


The biggest driver of rising house prices is the sustained period of historically low interest rates. When interest rates finally rise, prices will have to come down. People can take on monstrous amounts of debt because it's so cheap to carry right now. When I bought my first car, it was the other end of the interest rate spectrum, and I was paying 20% interest. When mortgage rates rise to something more like a 20 year average, there will be a big "correction".

Low interest rates make owning all long-lived goods more lucrative. How's the price explosion in machine tools coming along? In computing power?

Of course demand for such stuff goes up, but in housing, supply does not seem to follow. Housing starts in the US are at about the same level as in the 1950's. Yet we are far richer and have far more people. It's political control by homeowners that causes this. Zoning, democratically decided by small groups.
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
--Pogo