A computer question for the savants amongst us:
When I got this machine, I was able to access a free one hour Xfinity wifi pass, and that allowed me to sign up for wifi passes monthly. I also have cable from Comcast, so I decided today to head down to the local Comcast office and see if I could bundle the two, perhaps save myself some money. The young woman ended up offering me a plan that would have saved me maybe $20 a month.... but then the deal fell apart when she asked me whether I needed the modem with it, which would of course be extra. Initially I said no, assuming that I must have one built into the laptop, else how would I have been using the net for the last four months here? But talking with her, she tells me, and I think I believe her, that I do not have linked internet access (which is obviously true, no cable connects my computer to anything), so therefore I must be simply getting wifi access because my apt. must be part of some 'wifi hotspot'. So I told her to forget the whole thing, because there was no cable/ wifi pass bundle option available. As long as the wifi still works, which it clearly does, I guess I will just keep it as is, because I surely do need it. Is she right, about this hotspot thing? Obviously I am not paying for any hotspot access from anyone, only for the wifi monthly charge from Comcast/ Infinity, and I do not want to pay for cabled modem-ed internet access, unless I have to. I have had no problems accessing any websites whatsoever, since I have been using the wifi service (May).
And one more question:
I felt like an idiot standing at the Comcast office next to a woman obviously young enough to be my daughter, who seemed to be frustrated that a guy like me, older than her but obviously not an elderly person who might be presumed not to know the answer to such a question. But on reflection it was my fault... I did not snip at her, yell at her, etc., but I almost melted down. And I am wondering something-- it is obvious to me (esp as I try to learn enough Zoom to do these free short-term courses for the older folks through the local foundation in my city, set to start in a week), that I am deeply ignorant of many if not most of modern computer stuff, including most of what my new computer and new phone, both dating to this spring, could do, and I am not someone who is likely going to be able to teach himself many of these techniques by watching youtube videos. I am, for all the advanced humanities education and c. 2000-era aging MLS skills, really about the most mechanically-/ technically-disinclined guy I have ever met. Thus, I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how I might get the skills I need here, something I could perhaps do myself without spending significant amounts of money I do not quite frankly have? Also, has anyone taken advantage of things like computer skills classes at local public libraries, when/ if available, and what would any vets of such courses feedback be? Thanks as always.
Take the courses offered at the public library. Most of them are designed with relative novices like you in mind and generally are friendly places to ask the basic questions.
I understand your feelings about your interaction with the Comcast rep. Part of the problem is that, not infrequently, the Comcast rep is working from a script and lacks a true grasp of the company's options. Comcast is an unpleasant company to deal with. Ask me how I know......
Free public library courses are usually good. I find that the instructor often adapts to people attending, so if the class has several people struggling at a basic level, the pace will slow down. However, I also find that instructors are often willing to provide some individual help after class. And if you attend several, you may find you're recognized and get a bit more help, as library staff seem to reward effort.
Your question is an extremely common one: "How can I get internet access without getting ripped off? I don't need to know the details of how it works."
That is a really difficult question to get answered.
Quote from: Vkw10 on September 17, 2020, 06:07:31 AM
Free public library courses are usually good. I find that the instructor often adapts to people attending, so if the class has several people struggling at a basic level, the pace will slow down. However, I also find that instructors are often willing to provide some individual help after class. And if you attend several, you may find you're recognized and get a bit more help, as library staff seem to reward effort.
It's been said that libraries "give nothing for nothing." We don't usually have the staff to do it for you, but we can meet you halfway by helping you to figure it out. Or sometimes even 3/4 of the way.
I understand the frustration of dealing with the cable company and feeling like an idiot for not being more tech savvy. Try having to deal with the internet provider on behalf of a library that has staff and patrons depending on maintenance of service, in a region where the internet grid is atrocious!
I am thinking I will sign up for a library class like this, as soon as such classes again become available in my area. And I will also be able to get access to some Zoom assistance as well. I am going to try to man up and deal with Zoom for the volunteer thing I am supposed to start doing next week, based largely on the very limited amount of effective assistance the foundation that I am doing it for has been able to provide. Sadly, that is not very much. I had hoped to be able to go there and interact with an actual human being ftf, but no such luck. The older woman who runs the foundation does so herself, and has admitted in the mass emails sent out to the lot of us that we are in untested waters here, especially since all the students are 50+ folks, some quite a bit older than that. The board of the foundation only decided to go Zoom about 6 weeks ago, and is more or less winging it.
I share nebo's deep underwhelmedness with Comcast, and assessment of the sales rep I was working with. Obviously I am ignorant, but it probably would have been nice had she been more able to deal with things, but yes, 'working with a script' sounds about right. I am probably stuck with this until something better arrives-- a follow-up question would thus be, 'if Comcast is the local cable tv provider in my area, which of course it is, are there any other companies which would be able to sell me internet access in my apt, and would that be different from 'wifi hotspot' access? No other firms have ever sent junk mail to my house here, offering such.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 17, 2020, 11:28:18 AM
I share nebo's deep underwhelmedness with Comcast, and assessment of the sales rep I was working with. Obviously I am ignorant, but it probably would have been nice had she been more able to deal with things, but yes, 'working with a script' sounds about right. I am probably stuck with this until something better arrives-- a follow-up question would thus be, 'if Comcast is the local cable tv provider in my area, which of course it is, are there any other companies which would be able to sell me internet access in my apt, and would that be different from 'wifi hotspot' access? No other firms have ever sent junk mail to my house here, offering such.
The wifi signal has to come from someplace, and it can come from essentially two places:
1. Option 1: Cable. You buy a plan from your cable company. The physical set-up consists of your cable wire, connected to a cable modem (smallish box with flashing lights), which is then connected to (or integrated with) a wifi router (another smallish box, this one with one or more antennas sticking out). When the Comcast person asked if you had a modem and router, she was referring to these -- you can either own your own or rent them from Comcast or whoever your cable company is. Generally renting is NOT a good deal (you end up paying much more over the life of the product than if you just bought it).
2. Option 2: Cellular data. You buy a data plan from your cell phone company. The physical set-up is a small device that receives the cell signal and transmits it as a wifi signal (similar to how the router takes the cable signal and transmits it as a wifi signal). You may also be able to use your cell phone itself as the transmitter (e.g., on iPhones you can turn your phone into a mobile wifi hotspot).
There are pros and cons for each, but a lot comes down to pricing and what is available in your area. If Comcast is the only cable company in your area and you're not happy with them, you might want to consider bundling with your cell service rather than your cable and see how that compares.
And actually there is option 3 if you only need occasional access and don't need high speeds, which is seemingly what you've been using so far-- find an open wifi hotspot from someone else's router and use that. The Xfinity hotspots are set up by Comcast as part of the deal if you buy their internet service, but I don't know if they have any plan that lets you use them without having cable internet through them. Of course, many businesses, and public places, have open wifi networks for customers to use. It's important to keep in mind that that open networks are not secure, and are prone to be slow and break down from time to time, so you shouldn't rely on them if you need internet for work or sensitive tasks.
Comcast/Xfinity has hotspots all over the U.S. Generally you only have access if you have Comcast cable or if you pay specifically for the hotspot, but for the pandemic, they have been made free. So this may be where you are getting your wifi access, if you happen to be within an Xfinity hotspot. One caveat is that it will make your data more vulnerable if you're doing banking online and things like that; other people using the hotspot can "listen in" on your transactions and passwords. Apart from that, free is good.
You can buy a modem for $50: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N7QK8Z5/
I can't imagine doing a Zoom call via one of those free wifi hotspots. Anything on WiFi seems to lead to choppy video/audio -- and the problem is that the person talking never realizes how choppy they are to everyone else. WiFi is great for browsing the web and even video streaming, since that's pre-loading the data before you play. But anything that requires real-time performance suffers greatly. This is true even if you have a router at home.
Buy an ethernet cable for $5 and plug your laptop directly into the modem. Or if you want your own WiFi signal, buy a router, plug that into the modem, and plug your laptop into the router. Physical cables will always be faster than anything that travels through the air, even in the very best of conditions.
Apologies, I first read this thread as wife hotspots! :-)
Hmmm... more of my being an idiot here....
1) I am not paying for the cabled internet access, which I refused to do, esp since I would have to either rent or acquire a modem, and the deal bundled with cable wasn't that great.
2) But I am obviously able to access the hotspot with this computer, which I am indeed using right now. I am paying a monthly fee for the pass, and the only free pass I was able to get, back in May, was for one hour only. I tried then to get more time free, but I had to pay. And keep on paying now.
3) I am not that motivated to buy a cable, get a modem, etc., just to perhaps improve my Zoom performance for a 6 week long volunteer thing I am going to get paid precisely nothing for. Perhaps later on, if I find myself in need of serious Zoom access, but not now. Question here, I have never done Skype for anything, but am I correct to assume it pretty much requires the same tech and is essentially similar to Zoom?
4) As to why this is a hotspot, I do have cabled Comcast tv. I also have a cellphone, but am not paying for it myself, merely having been added to a relative's plan (relative does not live in my city). I shall have to ask her about what is and is not available with it/ its plan, the next time I see her. The phone itself is some sort of Samsung thing with a Verizon plan, so this is different from Comcast, right? I am definitely buying the computer wifi pass through Xfinity. But would the phone plan also be able to be added onto the computer?
Boy I am a tech naif. I am going to have to enroll in such a class as soon as the library can offer one. I will ask the librarian their plans for such the next time I go in there to return books, next week.
Thanks again to all.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 17, 2020, 05:37:24 PM
Hmmm... more of my being an idiot here....
1) I am not paying for the cabled internet access, which I refused to do, esp since I would have to either rent or acquire a modem, and the deal bundled with cable wasn't that great.
2) But I am obviously able to access the hotspot with this computer, which I am indeed using right now. I am paying a monthly fee for the pass, and the only free pass I was able to get, back in May, was for one hour only. I tried then to get more time free, but I had to pay. And keep on paying now.
3) I am not that motivated to buy a cable, get a modem, etc., just to perhaps improve my Zoom performance for a 6 week long volunteer thing I am going to get paid precisely nothing for. Perhaps later on, if I find myself in need of serious Zoom access, but not now. Question here, I have never done Skype for anything, but am I correct to assume it pretty much requires the same tech and is essentially similar to Zoom?
4) As to why this is a hotspot, I do have cabled Comcast tv. I also have a cellphone, but am not paying for it myself, merely having been added to a relative's plan (relative does not live in my city). I shall have to ask her about what is and is not available with it/ its plan, the next time I see her. The phone itself is some sort of Samsung thing with a Verizon plan, so this is different from Comcast, right? I am definitely buying the computer wifi pass through Xfinity. But would the phone plan also be able to be added onto the computer?
Boy I am a tech naif. I am going to have to enroll in such a class as soon as the library can offer one. I will ask the librarian their plans for such the next time I go in there to return books, next week.
Thanks again to all.
2) So, you are paying to use the Comcast hotspots, which means you'll have wifi so long as you are in range of one of their routers, which it sounds like you are at home. That may be good enough for your modest demands.
3) Yes, in terms of bandwidth needed, all video conferencing software is going to be about the same.
4) Not sure what you're asking in the last question-- are you asking if you can use your phone for internet access on your computer? If you have an unlimited data plan you may be able to use your phone as a hotspot. However, it may be too slow for Zoom, or video streaming, so depends on what you are trying to do. Many cell companies now also offer home internet service (as I described before) which would be faster and which you may be able to bundle with your existing phone plan at a discount.
For the Zoom meeting, find out if someone is projecting slides or other visuals so that you would need video over internet.
Many of the telecons are a much better experience by just calling in with a regular phone as a conference call and skipping the video entirely. A foundation that wants you to participate as a new volunteer may be willing to email slides so you can flip through them on your own computer while listening on the phone. We've been doing a lot of telecons that way recently.
Just to mention that generally, unlimited data plans do not allow you to use your phone as a hotspot. They specifically hinder that, for the predictable reasons.
My branch manager used Jitsi Meet (https://meet.jit.si (https://meet.jit.si)) for our online staff meetings while our library system was closed. It's free, secure, no account sign up required, no time limits, and generous attendance levels. (There's a mobile app available) It's comparable to Google Meet for those who've used that.
Quote from: Hegemony on September 17, 2020, 06:52:28 PM
Just to mention that generally, unlimited data plans do not allow you to use your phone as a hotspot. They specifically hinder that, for the predictable reasons.
T-mobile allows it. One of the many reasons I will never switch back to Verizon.
Quote from: hmaria1609 on September 17, 2020, 07:26:01 PM
My branch manager used Jitsi Meet (https://meet.jit.si (https://meet.jit.si)) for our online staff meetings while our library system was closed. It's free, secure, no account sign up required, no time limits, and generous attendance levels. (There's a mobile app available) It's comparable to Google Meet for those who've used that.
Jitsi crashed Safari on my Mac desktop. The crash was so hard that I was logged out of the machine entirely, which has never happened previously for anything. Eventually, Jitsi worked on Firefox on Mac, but it's not as good as WebEx or Zoom for a real meeting. I have not been impressed watching Blocky's online classes using Google Meet, either.
QuoteT-mobile allows it. One of the many reasons I will never switch back to Verizon.
I'm on Verizon, and we use our phones as hotspots all the time. It's not good enough for a full-length Zoom class though.
Quote from: fourhats on September 18, 2020, 07:30:28 AM
QuoteT-mobile allows it. One of the many reasons I will never switch back to Verizon.
I'm on Verizon, and we use our phones as hotspots all the time. It's not good enough for a full-length Zoom class though.
Good to know-- at the time I switched, they wanted a lot extra for using your phone as a hotspot after a small pot of "shared" data was used up, plus was more expensive even without that.
Quote from: polly_mer on September 18, 2020, 05:56:58 AM
Jitsi crashed Safari on my Mac desktop. The crash was so hard that I was logged out of the machine entirely, which has never happened previously for anything. Eventually, Jitsi worked on Firefox on Mac, but it's not as good as WebEx or Zoom for a real meeting. I have not been impressed watching Blocky's online classes using Google Meet, either.
I'm sorry about that. There's no perfect system!
Our online staff meetings were half hour to an hour; my Mac Book held up well during these sessions.
Quote from: pigou on September 17, 2020, 02:55:42 PM
You can buy a modem for $50: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07N7QK8Z5/
You can, but be very precise about what you are buying. Spouse and I have moved a lot recently, and have not been able to keep our existing internet providers for any move. This has led to our modem collection. We have at least 4: A Verizon, a Comcast, a CenturyLink, and one that I can't remember. Each one seems to have proprietary limitations that keep you from reusing it at the next place. However, quite a few people in our situation seem to sell used modems on eBay, so if you end up deciding to buy a modem, I recommend asking the provider to write down all the specifications for you, and then buying it online from someone who has recently left that service.
--
Unrelated: I have never been able to take a video call from a hotspot, and am impressed by those of you who can.
AR.
Quote from: hmaria1609 on September 18, 2020, 10:12:35 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on September 18, 2020, 05:56:58 AM
Jitsi crashed Safari on my Mac desktop. The crash was so hard that I was logged out of the machine entirely, which has never happened previously for anything. Eventually, Jitsi worked on Firefox on Mac, but it's not as good as WebEx or Zoom for a real meeting. I have not been impressed watching Blocky's online classes using Google Meet, either.
I'm sorry about that. There's no perfect system!
Our online staff meetings were half hour to an hour; my Mac Book held up well during these sessions.
There's no perfect system, true. However, it's beyond old to have to wrestle with a new program every time we turn around.
For example, we had a parent-teacher conference* yesterday where the teachers insisted on Google Meet. Mr. Mer's desktop has regularly used Zoom with no problem for other meetings we've had for many consumer experiences, but Chrome and Google Meets couldn't work the camera. The teachers asserted that we couldn't go forward if they couldn't see us so we transitioned to Blocky's school-issued Chromebook.
Yeah, why wouldn't we want to gather around that tiny screen to look at the required documents being projected on only half the screen and two small faces on the side instead of being at the large screen where the text was clearly visible? The teacher initially was jokey about only seeing the tops of heads and it turned out that the tiny couple pixels in the corner was our view of ourselves.
It was a crap experience that was horrible compared to the bazillion WebExes and Zooms I do for work and outreach every week where only the speaker/host projects the material and the rest of us watch on our devices and talk/text to interact.
Video calls are great for one place to one place like the Sunday afternoon Skypes we have to speak with grandparents. It's really unnecessary to be looking at random talking heads.
* Blocky tested into an advanced group, so we had to meet about additional expectations about being pulled out of the regular remote class.
What was the school's rationale for requiring use of Google Meet? What advantages does this program have?
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 20, 2020, 08:19:57 PM
What was the school's rationale for requiring use of Google Meet? What advantages does this program have?
The school district bought Chromebooks for all students, faculty, and staff and went all in to standardize on Google products in an effort to reduce IT support needs for everyone at home. I assume the district got a good deal by bundling everything.
I don't care about requiring using the standard program for a one-off meeting so much as I remain annoyed that we couldn't go forward all just looking at the paperwork with the insistence on video all around when the camera had an issue and doing so made seeing the only necessary visual harder.
After that horrible meeting, Blocky is getting a big external monitor and keyboard (he already had the mouse) to improve his daily experience. Blocky didn't complain, but when we asked if he'd like a bigger screen, he agreed that would be nice.
I'm mortified by people who work all day on laptop screens and without an external keyboard & mouse. Can't possibly be good for their eyes or hands.
I just picked up this external monitor which, although a little pricy, is a complete game-changer: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B083TDZJD7/
32" is the perfect size to use the side-by-side mode in Windows -- effectively giving you two monitors in one. But much easier on the eyes than using two separate monitors.
WRT Zoom, I confess I am less than impressed with this foundation I am doing the volunteer senior citizens courses for. My two courses are set to start Thursday, and I do not yet know if this is going to work. I get that the foundation board was essentially winging it last minute in late July when they decided to go online this fall, and the director asked if I could do that. I asked the tech person who gave me the machine if it could do Zoom, and learning that it could, I agreed to do the classes. But the foundation director promised to provide Zoom training, which I told her then that I wanted and would need. She dilly-dallied for several links and then sent, as 'training', links to a couple of youtube videos. I was able to sign up for Zoom account with this info (but of course I could have located the info myself), but I have gotten no assistance beyond this, certainly no access to a local tech person to see if this is going to work. And when I registered for Zoom last week, the Zoom screen offered me a chance to do a demo meeting.... I have asked the foundation director to set something up for me to do so, but gotten no response. Unless I very much miss my guess, a 'demo meeting' actually requires at least one other person somewhere else working with me to do it, it cannot be done by myself? If I cannot do a demo mtg by Thursday, the first class is going to end up as the demo, and we will see what happens.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 21, 2020, 11:27:37 AM
WRT Zoom, I confess I am less than impressed with this foundation I am doing the volunteer senior citizens courses for. My two courses are set to start Thursday, and I do not yet know if this is going to work. I get that the foundation board was essentially winging it last minute in late July when they decided to go online this fall, and the director asked if I could do that. I asked the tech person who gave me the machine if it could do Zoom, and learning that it could, I agreed to do the classes. But the foundation director promised to provide Zoom training, which I told her then that I wanted and would need. She dilly-dallied for several links and then sent, as 'training', links to a couple of youtube videos. I was able to sign up for Zoom account with this info (but of course I could have located the info myself), but I have gotten no assistance beyond this, certainly no access to a local tech person to see if this is going to work. And when I registered for Zoom last week, the Zoom screen offered me a chance to do a demo meeting.... I have asked the foundation director to set something up for me to do so, but gotten no response. Unless I very much miss my guess, a 'demo meeting' actually requires at least one other person somewhere else working with me to do it, it cannot be done by myself? If I cannot do a demo mtg by Thursday, the first class is going to end up as the demo, and we will see what happens.
Ideally you'd have some people to demo on, but you can test out a lot of stuff for yourself-- just start a meeting with just you, practice screen sharing your slides (if you are using them), check your camera and mic are working, practice muting and unmuting yourself, etc. There is a pretty extensive user's guide on the zoom website, and it's really not that bad-- a lot more user friendly than some other platforms I've had to use.
Quote from: pigou on September 21, 2020, 08:16:39 AM
I'm mortified by people who work all day on laptop screens and without an external keyboard & mouse. Can't possibly be good for their eyes or hands.
Now that people are working from home in their jammies, they can also work from bed, propping the laptop on their tummy. An external keyboard and monitor really don't make that better for the eye or hands.
But how do I get to check the camera and the mic if no one is watching?
I do not need much, as there will be no slides, videos, etc., here, more or less just me talking and as much as possible others talking back. The students are all seniors, and as the director of the foundation well noted in her mass email to all students and teachers, this is very much indeed a work in progress for all of us, as we all essentially have no experience at this. We will see. But even if this week does not work, I guess the foundation should be able to see what works and does not work, and fix things going forward? Truth be told, am not absolutely sure this computer I have will actually work, because of the hotspot issues. I am not going to pay any money for cabled modem access, not for a volunteer effort I am not going to be paid for, and there seems no consensus on the fora that I will be able to do this with wifi...
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 21, 2020, 05:56:30 PM
But how do I get to check the camera and the mic if no one is watching?
I do not need much, as there will be no slides, videos, etc., here, more or less just me talking and as much as possible others talking back. The students are all seniors, and as the director of the foundation well noted in her mass email to all students and teachers, this is very much indeed a work in progress for all of us, as we all essentially have no experience at this. We will see. But even if this week does not work, I guess the foundation should be able to see what works and does not work, and fix things going forward? Truth be told, am not absolutely sure this computer I have will actually work, because of the hotspot issues. I am not going to pay any money for cabled modem access, not for a volunteer effort I am not going to be paid for, and there seems no consensus on the fora that I will be able to do this with wifi...
You'll be able to see yourself on camera just like in a meeting with people. You can test your mic and connection by joining a test meeting (no other live humans are involved): https://zoom.us/test
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 21, 2020, 05:56:30 PM
But how do I get to check the camera and the mic if no one is watching?
I do not need much, as there will be no slides, videos, etc., here, more or less just me talking and as much as possible others talking back. The students are all seniors, and as the director of the foundation well noted in her mass email to all students and teachers, this is very much indeed a work in progress for all of us, as we all essentially have no experience at this. We will see. But even if this week does not work, I guess the foundation should be able to see what works and does not work, and fix things going forward? Truth be told, am not absolutely sure this computer I have will actually work, because of the hotspot issues. I am not going to pay any money for cabled modem access, not for a volunteer effort I am not going to be paid for, and there seems no consensus on the fora that I will be able to do this with wifi...
Option 1 (easier): Ask a friend to do a test Zoom meeting with you. The software is free to download and install.
Option 2 (solo): If you don't have friends with Zoom, do I remember on another thread that you said you had recently gotten a smart phone? You can do this test yourself if you have two devices with wifi and a door that you can close anywhere in your house. It will be easier if you also have a radio / TV. You'll also need to download Zoom on both devices.
Start the meeting on the device that you plan to use to host the meeting. Face the camera towards the TV / radio (or anything that makes noise). Keep the meeting unmuted with video running. Write down the Meeting ID and pass code.
Walk out of the room and close the door. Log into Zoom on the other device, and enter the meeting code and password. If you can see and hear the video in the other room, you are in good shape.
Don't walk back into the first room unless you leave the meeting or mute your second device and turn off its sound.
AR.
Good news-- it worked. I am not entirely sure how it worked, in the sense that I did not have the chance to test it (I appreciate the suggestions for doing so that were made here but lack the phone to do it, and probably lack the tech expertise to do some of the things as well-- I am certainly going to go ahead and sign up for a serious library tech class asap), and I was concerned that use of the wifi hotspot was not adequate, but both worked well. Thanks again to all for all the help.
Now one more question wrt Zoom--- how exactly is Zoom different from Skype? Can a job interview be conducted on Zoom, or would Skype be different (and better?) somehow?
Zoom is more commonly used for multiple sites (e.g., all twenty of us are in different places) than Skype (the free version of Skype is maybe capable of a three-way telecon).
For a job interview, any of the standard programs work well enough as long as everyone can call in and the host performs the expected duties regarding permissions.