This was one of my favorites from the original Fora:
Quote from: rowan1 on October 06, 2009, 08:17:29 AM
Yes we have the favorite conversations and favorite emails and even the worse student sentences thread - but I thought I would pause for a moment, after wiping the blood off my desk and head to reach out to others who surely feel as I do at times that the light bulbs will never never never go on.
To my dear sweet YOUNG students - you have to read beyond the text! You have to be able to imagine the world of the characters. You have to be able to see the subtext. these questions are designed to help you with that, and no, choosing to not answer them because "I didn't see anything in the script that told me what she wanted" does not work! The whole entire play is about what she wants! For gosh sakes - it is a freaking Neil Simon play - it ain't that deep! What are you going to do with your final when we are working on "deep" plays?
Thank you, I will now return to grading these incredibly perceptive character analysis and try not to give myself a concussion.
My current head-banging moment:
A colleague sent me a puzzled email asking why so many students were begging to take their midterm on another day.
"I did not realize on time that scheduling an exam on Friday night was not a good idea."
Really? You didn't realize that non-majors wouldn't want to stay around on a Friday for an exam?
It's midterm for us, so it's time to resurrect this thread. Based on my students graphing abilities, time is dependent variable to temperature. I know that time flies when you are having fun, but you CAN have fun a cold temp too.
S: "Is there any way to practice problems at home?"
M: "Sure. Just do the problem sets in your textbook--there are lots."
S: "What textbook?"
M: "The one for this class. [Name.]"
S: "There's no textbook for this class."
M: "Yes, there is."
S: "How do I find it?"
M: "It's on the Moodle page."
S: "No, it isn't."
M: "Yes, it is. It's free, open-source, and online. There's a link to it on the syllabus. I posted a full copy on Moodle. And I posted each individual chapter on Moodle, too."
S: "So I have to buy it?"
...
It's five weeks in. Come on. I know you've checked the Moodle page before, because that's where the weekly quizzes are, and you completed them.
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 03, 2019, 12:00:48 PM
S: "Is there any way to practice problems at home?"
M: "Sure. Just do the problem sets in your textbook--there are lots."
S: "What textbook?"
M: "The one for this class. [Name.]"
S: "There's no textbook for this class."
M: "Yes, there is."
S: "How do I find it?"
M: "It's on the Moodle page."
S: "No, it isn't."
M: "Yes, it is. It's free, open-source, and online. There's a link to it on the syllabus. I posted a full copy on Moodle. And I posted each individual chapter on Moodle, too."
S: "So I have to buy it?"
...
It's five weeks in. Come on. I know you've checked the Moodle page before, because that's where the weekly quizzes are, and you completed them.
As part of a similar discussion this week, I learned that all of my students that purchased their books at the bookstore were sold a "required" study guide. I have never required a study guide, or even listed one under the recommended materials. My students were wondering how they should be using it. I'm wondering why nobody mentioned it on the first day of class when I went through the list of things they needed to buy for my class and that wasn't one of them.
In my online Sophomore level writing for the major course, students had to take a quiz about Plagiarism. They had access to the course video and the relevant university policy on Plagiarism. This is a 10 question quiz with such great questions as True or False: You get a pass on plagiarism if it is unintentional.
The quiz is untimed and they have 5 attempts to earn a perfect score. They cannot submit any subsequent assignments until they earn said perfect score.
I now have at least 7 students who need more than 5 attempts. One student is on attempt #8! Apparently the question about recycling your own writing for other courses is a real stumper!
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2019, 01:24:09 PM
In my online Sophomore level writing for the major course, students had to take a quiz about Plagiarism. They had access to the course video and the relevant university policy on Plagiarism. This is a 10 question quiz with such great questions as True or False: You get a pass on plagiarism if it is unintentional.
The quiz is untimed and they have 5 attempts to earn a perfect score. They cannot submit any subsequent assignments until they earn said perfect score.
I now have at least 7 students who need more than 5 attempts. One student is on attempt #8! Apparently the question about recycling your own writing for other courses is a real stumper!
To be fair, on the old fora there were lots of discussions about whether "self-plagiarism" is even possible. Using the same stuff in multiple courses may be forbidden by other rules, but that's a different issue.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 14, 2019, 01:59:34 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2019, 01:24:09 PM
In my online Sophomore level writing for the major course, students had to take a quiz about Plagiarism. They had access to the course video and the relevant university policy on Plagiarism. This is a 10 question quiz with such great questions as True or False: You get a pass on plagiarism if it is unintentional.
The quiz is untimed and they have 5 attempts to earn a perfect score. They cannot submit any subsequent assignments until they earn said perfect score.
I now have at least 7 students who need more than 5 attempts. One student is on attempt #8! Apparently the question about recycling your own writing for other courses is a real stumper!
To be fair, on the old fora there were lots of discussions about whether "self-plagiarism" is even possible. Using the same stuff in multiple courses may be forbidden by other rules, but that's a different issue.
Agreed-- I wouldn't call this plagiarism-- to me those policies exist because it defeats the purpose of learning something new in each course, and I only enforce them to the extent that that's the case. I had a student in my seminar last year who was very concerned that it wouldn't be OK for her to write papers for my psych class and a linguistics class (both about language development)-- I told her it was actually awesome that she was making connections across the curriculum and going deep from two different disciplinary perspectives on the same topic.
Don't most colleges have explicit rules against doing this, however? Indeed, how is writing one paper for two classes adequately fulfilling the need to do work for each course?
Regardless if if it's plagiarism, it's prohibited by the university policy on plagiarism, which was the primary reading assignment for the quiz.
On a different note: I just graded a "paper" that seems to have been written by auto-complete. My favorite statement: "Many countries are under international pressure or have beef."
I have no idea what he meant to say. But, technically he's right: Many countries DO have beef. Maybe most of them. So half credit?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 14, 2019, 09:43:48 PM
Don't most colleges have explicit rules against doing this, however? Indeed, how is writing one paper for two classes adequately fulfilling the need to do work for each course?
Yes, but I think there's a big difference between literally turning in the same paper (hard to imagine that working unless the assignment was *very* open ended anyway) and building on/looking at from another disciplinary perspective the same topic across classes, which is something I wish happened a lot more. If they want to do that I'm all for it and I'm not going to worry about whether some bits of text end up appearing in both papers. After all, the goal is learning, not producing widgets (at least my goal).
Puget, this issue that we have is actually the first. Our senior capstone is essentially open topic and we have had a run of students who take a paper that they wrote for a previous class, add a few paragraphs to it, and resubmit it. I have had them get flagged by Turnitin as 80% match or more! Hence the emphasis on this being a punishable offence. It's one of the many ways that our senior capstone course does not work the way it is intended to. But that's another issue.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 15, 2019, 08:16:59 AM
Puget, this issue that we have is actually the first. Our senior capstone is essentially open topic and we have had a run of students who take a paper that they wrote for a previous class, add a few paragraphs to it, and resubmit it. I have had them get flagged by Turnitin as 80% match or more! Hence the emphasis on this being a punishable offence. It's one of the many ways that our senior capstone course does not work the way it is intended to. But that's another issue.
The fact that "adding a few paragraphs" to a paper would satisfy the requirements of a
senior capstone course says more about the course than the students.
Like I said, that's a whole other issue.
All I am going to say is that if you meet the following criteria
- You are an uncle
- You live in Georgia
- Your niece or nephew is in one my classes
then you are a dead man walking. On a positive note: Grandmothers, and aunts in Alabama, seem to be surviving quite well this semester.
Quote from: fishbrains on October 15, 2019, 09:41:08 AM
All I am going to say is that if you meet the following criteria
- You are an uncle
- You live in Georgia
- Your niece or nephew is in one my classes
then you are a dead man walking. On a positive note: Grandmothers, and aunts in Alabama, seem to be surviving quite well this semester.
It seems to be spreading north. My first exam killed a grandma, a grandpa, and caused an unspecified "family emergency."
With the U.S. continuing into Stage III of the Demographic Transition, we will be seeing steadily increasing numbers of "old person - linked" student absenteeism/tardiness/non-completion.
This will not affect individual mortality. A person can only expire once.
Quote from: Aster on October 16, 2019, 09:50:32 AM
With the U.S. continuing into Stage III of the Demographic Transition, we will be seeing steadily increasing numbers of "old person - linked" student absenteeism/tardiness/non-completion.
This will not affect individual mortality. A person can only expire once.
There is, if one looks at death from another perspective It is possible to "die" twice.
Once, of course, is the traditional death: vigil, wake, flowers, service, burial/cremation, stone or tablet.
Then there's the other: "One is not truly dead until there is no one alive who remembers you." I sort of go with that.
The valiant taste of death but once. -S.
M.
"You only live twice:
Once when you are born
And once when you look death in the face"
-Ian Fleming
(To die twice, you should logically have to live twice first.)
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
The sheer number of recent military veterans with mental health problems is staggering. Virtually all of my classes have military veterans in them, and often they are the better students (or at least average). But over the last 3-4 years I am losing quite a few from excessive class absences. Those students are serving as caregivers to other military veterans with severe mental trauma. They literally have to drop everything when their friends are put on suicide watch, get sent into rehab, are hospitalized, etc...
I currently have one student who keeps missing classes because one of his friends recently killed himself, and another of his friends is in hospice care with no family support. He will unfortunately not be completing his courses with me as he is far too behind in his work.
Was it always this bad serving in the U.S. military? Or getting discharged from the U.S. military?
A friend of mine is a founding chaplain of Wounded Warriors.
It's becoming more possible to be more open about difficult issues as such groups expand their ministry; they may be able to comment on the patterns or levels of difficulty as they have unfolded over time, and whether the experiences have increased, or simply an increased level of reportage has made it more publicly apparent.
They are also available to help those in need of getting services, finding counseling, etc.
https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/?utm_expid=.YZjiD6riSxaXpkYaPbpn5A.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
If someone you know needs a direct contact, PM me.
M.
Quote from: Aster on October 17, 2019, 09:34:58 AM
The sheer number of recent military veterans with mental health problems is staggering. Virtually all of my classes have military veterans in them, and often they are the better students (or at least average). But over the last 3-4 years I am losing quite a few from excessive class absences. Those students are serving as caregivers to other military veterans with severe mental trauma. They literally have to drop everything when their friends are put on suicide watch, get sent into rehab, are hospitalized, etc...
I currently have one student who keeps missing classes because one of his friends recently killed himself, and another of his friends is in hospice care with no family support. He will unfortunately not be completing his courses with me as he is far too behind in his work.
Was it always this bad serving in the U.S. military? Or getting discharged from the U.S. military?
Yes but alcoholism and wife-beating were considered socially acceptable outlets for mental trauma caused by war.
Quote from: downer on October 17, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
I'm always confused about the skepticism. I have uncles. At the moment, they are all fine, as far as I know, but someday, they won't be. And when that happens, I might have to cancel class to go to a funeral. People, unfortunately, do commit suicide, and die of drug overdoses. Some of those people might be close to my students. Students also have concussions, especially if they play sports, and they tend to get diagnosed more now, and taken more seriously.
Perhaps, it helps that I'm always flexible about due dates and have an attendance policy that doesn't distinguish between excused and unexcused absences. It leaves me free to believe what my students tell me, which seems like a better way to go through life.
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2019, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: downer on October 17, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
I'm always confused about the skepticism. I have uncles. At the moment, they are all fine, as far as I know, but someday, they won't be. And when that happens, I might have to cancel class to go to a funeral. People, unfortunately, do commit suicide, and die of drug overdoses. Some of those people might be close to my students. Students also have concussions, especially if they play sports, and they tend to get diagnosed more now, and taken more seriously.
Perhaps, it helps that I'm always flexible about due dates and have an attendance policy that doesn't distinguish between excused and unexcused absences. It leaves me free to believe what my students tell me, which seems like a better way to go through life.
So I don't have any rules about absences or attendance. Just do the work and if you can't make it to class one day, that's your business. However, they do choose let me know what's going on if there is something big in their lives.
One day I noticed that it was my low-income students of color who tended to have aunts, uncles, and parents die. Statistically it makes sense as demographically that group has lower life expectancy so a 20 year-old student is more likely to have a 40-50-something parent.
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2019, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: downer on October 17, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
I'm always confused about the skepticism. I have uncles. At the moment, they are all fine, as far as I know, but someday, they won't be. And when that happens, I might have to cancel class to go to a funeral. People, unfortunately, do commit suicide, and die of drug overdoses. Some of those people might be close to my students. Students also have concussions, especially if they play sports, and they tend to get diagnosed more now, and taken more seriously.
Perhaps, it helps that I'm always flexible about due dates and have an attendance policy that doesn't distinguish between excused and unexcused absences. It leaves me free to believe what my students tell me, which seems like a better way to go through life.
I'm not saying that I'm always skeptical when students give me such excuses. I do think that low-performing students with a history of spotty attendance and shoddy work tend to fall back on "excuses" that have the strong emotional component: death in the family, debilitating injury, etc. Those students used to use "dead grandma" as an excuse. Now, I think it's concussions. So the student who didn't turn in Scaffolding Assignment 1 because they had to rush their friend to the hospital, and didn't take Midterm Exam because of their childhood best friend killed themselves (requiring a flight home), now wants a three-week extension on Major Writing Project because of a concussion. It's usually at this point that I tell them a medical or hardship withdrawal might be appropriate, given that they've turned in zero major work in 8 weeks.
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2019, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: downer on October 17, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
I'm always confused about the skepticism. I have uncles. At the moment, they are all fine, as far as I know, but someday, they won't be. And when that happens, I might have to cancel class to go to a funeral. People, unfortunately, do commit suicide, and die of drug overdoses. Some of those people might be close to my students. Students also have concussions, especially if they play sports, and they tend to get diagnosed more now, and taken more seriously.
Perhaps, it helps that I'm always flexible about due dates and have an attendance policy that doesn't distinguish between excused and unexcused absences. It leaves me free to believe what my students tell me, which seems like a better way to go through life.
I'm not saying that I'm always skeptical when students give me such excuses. I do think that low-performing students with a history of spotty attendance and shoddy work tend to fall back on "excuses" that have the strong emotional component: death in the family, debilitating injury, etc. Those students used to use "dead grandma" as an excuse. Now, I think it's concussions. So the student who didn't turn in Scaffolding Assignment 1 because they had to rush their friend to the hospital, and didn't take Midterm Exam because of their childhood best friend killed themselves (requiring a flight home), now wants a three-week extension on Major Writing Project because of a concussion. It's usually at this point that I tell them a medical or hardship withdrawal might be appropriate, given that they've turned in zero major work in 8 weeks.
Yeah, I've obviously had those students too. Most of the time I doubt that they are actually lying. It is just that they are easily derailed and I suspect they are making excuses to themselves as well as me. Sometimes this is about attitude. Other times, it might have more to do with the structure around them.
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2019, 06:03:03 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2019, 12:16:49 PM
Quote from: downer on October 17, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on October 17, 2019, 07:11:11 AM
If this year is any indication, concussions and best-friend suicides are the new dead grandmothers.
I would probably come down hard on a student if I found they lied about a suicide. It would really bother me.
I'm always confused about the skepticism. I have uncles. At the moment, they are all fine, as far as I know, but someday, they won't be. And when that happens, I might have to cancel class to go to a funeral. People, unfortunately, do commit suicide, and die of drug overdoses. Some of those people might be close to my students. Students also have concussions, especially if they play sports, and they tend to get diagnosed more now, and taken more seriously.
Perhaps, it helps that I'm always flexible about due dates and have an attendance policy that doesn't distinguish between excused and unexcused absences. It leaves me free to believe what my students tell me, which seems like a better way to go through life.
I'm not saying that I'm always skeptical when students give me such excuses. I do think that low-performing students with a history of spotty attendance and shoddy work tend to fall back on "excuses" that have the strong emotional component: death in the family, debilitating injury, etc. Those students used to use "dead grandma" as an excuse. Now, I think it's concussions. So the student who didn't turn in Scaffolding Assignment 1 because they had to rush their friend to the hospital, and didn't take Midterm Exam because of their childhood best friend killed themselves (requiring a flight home), now wants a three-week extension on Major Writing Project because of a concussion. It's usually at this point that I tell them a medical or hardship withdrawal might be appropriate, given that they've turned in zero major work in 8 weeks.
Yeah, I've obviously had those students too. Most of the time I doubt that they are actually lying. It is just that they are easily derailed and I suspect they are making excuses to themselves as well as me. Sometimes this is about attitude. Other times, it might have more to do with the structure around them.
It's less about whether or not the student is telling the truth and more about whether or not they actually deliver the work.
My rule was that I didn't take anything late. They had to turn in their notes if that was all they had, and I graded those. Sometimes there was enough good content to pull out a C or D.
And for exams they were allowed to do them as take-homes if they wanted. They would be open book, open note anyway so not as though they could cheat.
For extreme situations I would allow the final to count for the full midterm or interim paper grade.
By the time the final exam/paper rolled around (1) I knew who was generally going to fail anyway and not worth the trouble, versus who was generally doing a good job and (2) They knew the drill for late work (NO).
So if they did ask for flexibility at that point I asked them what they needed. And as long as they delivered on their self-declared deadline and it didn't hold up any of my grading or reporting, whatevs.
Now I'm confused. If a student says someone close to them died so they could not come to class, and in fact no one close to them died, isn't that lying?
I don't care about most lying, and I also engage in my own lying sometimes. I am bothered by some lies though, such as ones about suicide.
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2019, 07:55:41 AM
Now I'm confused. If a student says someone close to them died so they could not come to class, and in fact no one close to them died, isn't that lying?
I don't care about most lying, and I also engage in my own lying sometimes. I am bothered by some lies though, such as ones about suicide.
What would you have to go through to prove whether or not the student was, in fact lying? Do you want to go through that effort?
If not, you have a choice. Believe them, or don't believe them but act as if you believe them, figuring that if they were the kind of person to lie about something like that they probably had bigger problems in their lives than your class.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 18, 2019, 07:59:12 AM
Quote from: downer on October 18, 2019, 07:55:41 AM
Now I'm confused. If a student says someone close to them died so they could not come to class, and in fact no one close to them died, isn't that lying?
I don't care about most lying, and I also engage in my own lying sometimes. I am bothered by some lies though, such as ones about suicide.
What would you have to go through to prove whether or not the student was, in fact lying? Do you want to go through that effort?
This is critical. Do you want someone to have to produce the death certificate of their best friend or parent just so you know they're telling the truth? I don't.
With many of these kinds of rules, the problem is that the difficulty it creates for the people
with legitimate claims is big, while it ultimately has little effect on the scammers who'll just try to game the system some other way.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 18, 2019, 07:59:12 AM
What would you have to go through to prove whether or not the student was, in fact lying? Do you want to go through that effort?
If not, you have a choice. Believe them, or don't believe them but act as if you believe them, figuring that if they were the kind of person to lie about something like that they probably had bigger problems in their lives than your class.
Exactly. And if you have a set procedure for dealing with requests than you are free to believe them, because it wouldn't really matter if you didn't. My policy is kind of exactly the opposite of Ciao's, I will always grant an extension, within reason. It accomplishes the same thing though. I'll give you the extension if you just managed your time poorly, so if you're really lying about your dead relative, then you're just being weird.
For me, this isn't an issue of "I think they're lying, let's nail them." My policies, and those of the department, are structured in such a way that I don't need to see doctors' notes or other sorts of documentation. A student missing the midterm is a student misses the midterm, whether he said it's because of a friend's death, mono, or that they overslept. My point is that the students who are doing poorly in the class for reasons such as "not showing up" or " never buying the book" are also the students who have excuses with the most pathos, be it the Dead Grandmothers of 1999 or the Concussions of 2018. Sure, that might mean that these students are the ones who have lots of extracurricular issues that result in such dramatic events. Or, these students (and, if I might generalize, they're almost always fraternity boys) have found that such excuses usually forestall any questions of documentation.
So, no. I don't ask them for documentation. And, yes, I apply my makeup policies consistently. It's just the trends I'm noticing, and I suspect that it's also respective to my university.
The issue of proof of an excuse is critical, I agree. I try to avoid it whenever possible. But there are times when it is unavoidable.
When necessary, I'm happy to ask to see doctor's notes, hospital bills, accident reports, court documents, and I have asked for death notices too. If I trust the student, I will let it slide. If I strongly suspect the student is lying, I will push hard.
When I first started teaching I would worry about whether a student was telling the truth or not, and required that they produce some sort of proof, but eventually decided for my own sanity that I was not going to put myself in the position of being the excuse police. I have policies in my syllabus for most scenarios of late work, missed labs, missed exams, etc. I'm sure some of them are lying, but if they are, then they have their reasons. And sometimes I get information that I really didn't need to know, supported by paperwork including "I was in jail," and "here's a link to the news article about my car wreck." One of the funnier incidents was when a student emailed saying he was missing lecture because he had "the flue" and couldn't be around people for 48 hours. I replied and told him to consult the syllabus for the official policy when classes are missed, and that I hoped he felt better soon. Not even two hours later, I was leaving the grocery store as he was walking in laughing and joking with some friends, not looking at all like he was ill. He saw me, looked appalled, and I just nodded, said hi, and kept walking. I guessed that he just didn't feel like coming to class that day, and it was his choice.
Quote from: RatGuy on October 18, 2019, 09:26:54 AM
For me, this isn't an issue of "I think they're lying, let's nail them." My policies, and those of the department, are structured in such a way that I don't need to see doctors' notes or other sorts of documentation. A student missing the midterm is a student misses the midterm, whether he said it's because of a friend's death, mono, or that they overslept. My point is that the students who are doing poorly in the class for reasons such as "not showing up" or " never buying the book" are also the students who have excuses with the most pathos, be it the Dead Grandmothers of 1999 or the Concussions of 2018. Sure, that might mean that these students are the ones who have lots of extracurricular issues that result in such dramatic events. Or, these students (and, if I might generalize, they're almost always fraternity boys) have found that such excuses usually forestall any questions of documentation.
So, no. I don't ask them for documentation. And, yes, I apply my makeup policies consistently. It's just the trends I'm noticing, and I suspect that it's also respective to my university.
I tended to have different policies for classes with different goals (e.g., science for teachers has a very different goal than thermodynamics for engineers). I agree that consistency is the key.
However, I did have to sometimes apply CC_Alan's "when you wear the big hat, then you get to decide what constitutes needing an exception for exceptional circumstances".
For example, I remember the tragedy that was a group house filled with students that burned down one night. I had several students show up for class the next day long enough to turn in their completed work (culmination of a few weeks so most people would have been done before the news spread) and then leave immediately in tears. I even accepted emailed submissions when I generally don't because anyone who is making any kind of an effort is getting a pass at this point. Documentation is irrelevant at this point and it's just cruel to those who need a little break.
As another example, I had an excellent student who had a very poorly timed, bad 48 hours that included the day the big project was due. She showed up an hour late in tears with a practically empty binder and a stack of unpunched papers to go in the binder. Her printer died. Her car died. The loaner car died. The second loaner car got stuck in the traffic behind an accident on the one road into town. It took three tries to find a printer on campus that worked because we were having network outages.
The whole class looked at me in shock because they knew that I had been death on deadlines all term and had rejected assignments all term for being 10 minutes late or in an improper format. Was I really going to have the A student drop to a C- because of a bad day?
No, I handed the student my three-hole punch and said, life happens; go sit with your group and get the papers punched to turn in the final portfolio. Since this was the science for teachers course, I also gave a little spiel on this being one common enough situation for which I, as the teacher, had structured the course to be a continuously improving portfolio. Someone who had been keeping up all along will be fine as long as they turn in something better than the last revision (hence the printing again). The learning has already been accomplished by keeping up all term and doing revisions based on feedback so applying the penalty now is just being punitive instead of helping the student learn.
We then joked to cheer up the student with oops, that one's punched crooked, gonna fail for sure now, and similar silliness.
In contrast, I had several people over the years who took three tries to get through the class because they didn't believe that a string of zeros would result in an F. Excused, unexcused, not turned in, or just plain bad doesn't matter. People who don't demonstrate mastery of the work don't pass, even when I know how hard their life is this term. I helped more than one student file for a medical or other hardship withdrawal because that's more important than this term's grade.
Like others, my current policy doesn't delineate between excused vs. unexcused absences. Students do the work or they don't. I'll be flexible up to a point.
I changed my policy when, because of the "excused" vs. "unexcused" silliness, I had to challenge a student's assertion that her father her had died and that's why she hadn't been in class for over three weeks. She couldn't produce a funeral flyer, obituary, or death notice. She couldn't tell me the name of the funeral home or where he was buried. Nothing. I was 98.3% sure that she was lying, but, more importantly, I was 100% sure that I didn't care. Hence the change in policy. I gave her the chance to turn in the late work (there was that 1.7% chance that I would end up looking like Satan himself); but, you know, lying slackers gotta keep-on slacking and lying, and she didn't pass.
Caracal, all I'm sayin' is that I'm glad your uncles are all fine, but it's probably because they aren't in the throes of the deadly combination of living in Alabama and your being in my class at same time. Ain't no cure for that.
Quote from: fishbrains on October 19, 2019, 09:17:53 AM
but, you know, lying slackers gotta keep-on slacking and lying, and she didn't pass.
Indeed. If you'd sooner make up a story that your father died than do the work or accept the penalty for not doing it, you probably are not the kind of person who is going to actually ever get the thing done. You might be the kind of person who will then plagiarize the whole paper, but that's a separate issue...
Quote from: Caracal on October 19, 2019, 11:13:18 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on October 19, 2019, 09:17:53 AM
but, you know, lying slackers gotta keep-on slacking and lying, and she didn't pass.
Indeed. If you'd sooner make up a story that your father died than do the work or accept the penalty for not doing it, you probably are not the kind of person who is going to actually ever get the thing done. You might be the kind of person who will then plagiarize the whole paper, but that's a separate issue...
This was a lesson I learned from my first dean: Don't get sucked into the personal drama of excused vs. unexcused. Just give them the second chance and 75% won't do the work, 15% will cut and paste from Wikipedia and make Turnitin blush, and 10% will do the work and be eternally grateful for the 2nd chance (your results may vary). Any way it works out, I look good with very little effort on my part.
Note: My CC is big on the "working with students" thing, although I'm not sure it does much good for the students overall.
To whoever is telling my students that I will be impressed if they keep coming to me to ask for more resources to help them practice:
Please update your message to reflect that I will NOT be impressed if their answer to the question of whether they have tried using the resources I have already provided is consistently "no."
More boneheaded plagiarism. Totally incoherent essay contains a few surprisingly cogent lines, about material not covered in the class.
Encyclopedia Britannica. Bam!
Dear student,
Yes, now that you have the letter from the Disabilities Services Office, you get the accommodations of extra time on exams and quizzes.
No, they are not retroactive.
No, time and a half doesn't make the 15 min quiz a 30 min quiz for you.
No, I don't want to talk to your mom about what they did in high school for accommodations.
Fishprof
Student whose undergrad dissertation I am meant to be supervising didn't show to the group mentoring session today (I have 6 supervisees). Writes to ask if he "missed anything important". Please help me draft a reply.
"yes"
I had one of my worst teaching days in years yesterday. Upper level methods course that I haven't taught in awhile. Full of students forced to take it b/c for various reasons, it's the only methods course offered in the department this semester. Most of these kids I've had in other classes and like them. Some are good, some are very good. Multiple ones have anxiety issues and miss class a lot and/or need lots of reassurance. One is new and very defensive about everything.
There are three reports due. First one was due 2 weeks ago. I know they waited until the last minute b/c they created a group chat mostly for access to the lab and I'm in on that. Lots of messages at midnight the day before it was due about requirements. Fine. Then I began grading. Each took me an hour, each was awful. No interpretation, despite a month of how to interpret results and 3 class periods devoted to basic descriptive statistics, plus readings and in-class exercises on how to do that, and homework, and lots of positive feedback. So, downhearted, I created a homework in which they could re-do the results section, with a handout that showed them how, to earn back the lost points. My focus is on making sure they learn to do this correctly.
In class I quickly realize how much I underestimated their abilities and how much more convoluted their analyses were. I was shocked. They averaged things that can't be averaged. They ran analyses on data from different data sets, but condensed the sets. I had to scramble in class while defensive guy is making loud noises about how it's so unfair to redo it all. Same defensive guy that sent midnight texts and blames me for all of this.
Last night, after anxious student sends three panicked emails about how she has a 4.0 and is going to fail and she just can't do it, I rewrite the handout to make it even simpler, and give an extra day to turn it in. I want to scrap the entire semester, and there is another lab report to go (with more detailed instructions) and a final paper. God help me. I'm going to redo this whole class after this semester.
It doesn't help that this state graduates almost anyone from HS so they can show a high graduation rate; that this university is the flagship of a sinking ship we call the state, and that my department doesn't allow any prerequisites so we keep class numbers up and students don't feel intimidated and drop out of the major. Ugh.
I was grading homework today. It was well evident that most people who actually turned it in (many did not) spent only a fraction of the required time to do it.
Indeed, it was painfully obvious that most assignments submitted this week were done in their car right before class, or literally in the few minutes in the physical classroom before I started collecting the assignments. The handwriting were very hasty scrawls. Complex components were almost all missing. Much of what was submitted showed evidence that the instructions had only been superficially skimmed.
On the plus side, this new low to student investment is much easier for me. It is much faster for me to grade mostly incomplete homework than it is for me to grade plagiarized or copied homework.
I realize that spending 5-8 hours glued to one's smartphone screen is a new normal for today's youth, but it's not doing any favors to improving academic performance or time to graduation.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on October 29, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
Student whose undergrad dissertation I am meant to be supervising didn't show to the group mentoring session today (I have 6 supervisees). Writes to ask if he "missed anything important". Please help me draft a reply.
Did I Miss Anything? (https://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/013.html)
Quote from: bacardiandlime on October 29, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
Student whose undergrad dissertation I am meant to be supervising didn't show to the group mentoring session today (I have 6 supervisees). Writes to ask if he "missed anything important". Please help me draft a reply.
Dear Stu,
Well, what do you think the purpose of the group mentoring session was today?
That's what you missed.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 01, 2019, 12:37:30 PM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on October 29, 2019, 03:37:26 PM
Student whose undergrad dissertation I am meant to be supervising didn't show to the group mentoring session today (I have 6 supervisees). Writes to ask if he "missed anything important". Please help me draft a reply.
Did I Miss Anything? (https://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/013.html)
"You were the only student who did not attend the mentoring session. Everyone else made significant progress on their dissertations and is in good shape for completing before the deadline. You're now far behind. You might want to think about changing programs."
Quote from: Aster on November 01, 2019, 12:11:05 PM
I was grading homework today. It was well evident that most people who actually turned it in (many did not) spent only a fraction of the required time to do it.
Indeed, it was painfully obvious that most assignments submitted this week were done in their car right before class, or literally in the few minutes in the physical classroom before I started collecting the assignments.
[. . .]
I set assignment deadlines several hours before class for this reason. Anything not submitted by the deadline, barring extreme exceptional circumstances, gets a zero.
Quote from: spork on November 01, 2019, 03:37:45 PM
"You were the only student who did not attend the mentoring session. Everyone else made significant progress on their dissertations and is in good shape for completing before the deadline. You're now far behind. You might want to think about changing programs."
I wish I had the nerve to send this.
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding (my fingers were crossed) and after a long discussion about modern scholarly concepts of "inherent", stu was happy to leave with a lot of references to neuroscience relating to crime. I'm banging my head over the prof, not the stu.
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 10, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and p]evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding
My guess is that the prof probably actually said "deontology". Although I have zero confidence that someone teaching criminology has a good handle on that ethical theory.
Although demonology would be great...
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 10, 2019, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 10, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding
My guess is that the prof probably actually said "deontology". Although I have zero confidence that someone teaching criminology has a good handle on that ethical theory.
Although demonology would be great...
Duh! I'm going to confirm with the stu, but I'll bet you're right! That actually makes some sense, particularly if the prof falsely assumed that the stu meant good and evil of the actions rather than the person. Since she had in mind the person (I had to convince her that she was not going to successfully prove that most crime in Canada is caused by the fundamentally evil character of the criminals, which was what she wanted to do, especially in a sociology rather than religious studies course), "demonology" seems almost eggcorn-like in terms of how she leaped to that mishearing.
Problem student-athlete turns in annotated bibliography with citation errors we have discussed how to correct in class. Since student-athlete rarely listens in class (persistently checking their phone), this isn't really surprising, but when errors are pointed out, they blow it off with "That's the way my advisor said to do it."
Me: "Your advisor isn't responsible for learning how to do this. You are. And your advisor shouldn't be telling you how to complete your assignments."
Student-athlete: "She just helped me."
Student-athlete obviously knows that athletic academic advisors (or whatever they're called) aren't supposed to be doing students' work for them, but I'd bet money that's pretty much what happened in this case.
>headdesk<
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 12, 2019, 04:23:19 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 10, 2019, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 10, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding
My guess is that the prof probably actually said "deontology". Although I have zero confidence that someone teaching criminology has a good handle on that ethical theory.
Although demonology would be great...
Duh! I'm going to confirm with the stu, but I'll bet you're right! That actually makes some sense, particularly if the prof falsely assumed that the stu meant good and evil of the actions rather than the person. Since she had in mind the person (I had to convince her that she was not going to successfully prove that most crime in Canada is caused by the fundamentally evil character of the criminals, which was what she wanted to do, especially in a sociology rather than religious studies course), "demonology" seems almost eggcorn-like in terms of how she leaped to that mishearing.
Most moral philosophy ends up with a Platonic view that everyone aims at their conception of the good, which makes it hard for them to provide an account of evil actions or persons. They tend to end up saying it is due to the agent's ignorance. I've always liked the idea of demons who fully embrace evil, with no confusion or ignorance of what is good. So she might be better off with demonology than deontology. But she will still need a theory of how demonic possession works.
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 10, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding (my fingers were crossed) and after a long discussion about modern scholarly concepts of "inherent", stu was happy to leave with a lot of references to neuroscience relating to crime. I'm banging my head over the prof, not the stu.
When I worked for a university library, I felt like banging my head over profs as much as over students quite often.
Grading exams. I've been using the same type of question for 5 years; it is linked to the same reading/homework and in-class activity. We spend a whole day in class covering this concept. Every other year 90% of the students get a C or higher on this question. It's supposed to be a gimme that separates those who studied from those who didn't. This year about 40% of the students bombed it (D or below).
I have no clue what is going on. Attendance is somewhat low and I've got a few who are glued to their computers, but not 40%.
Sometimes a class will just behave anomalously.
I lost a third of a class this week to later-term Withdrawals. On average it's usually only about a quarter.
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 12, 2019, 04:23:19 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 10, 2019, 09:29:50 AM
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 10, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
I hope you'll accept a librarian's "teaching" in this thread. I had a student come to me for help finding sources for her paper. Intro criminology class, choose a theory from the class and apply it to modern crime in Canada. She wanted to do "inherent good and evil" - her prof told her to research "demonology". I persuaded stu that he was kidding
My guess is that the prof probably actually said "deontology". Although I have zero confidence that someone teaching criminology has a good handle on that ethical theory.
Although demonology would be great...
Duh! I'm going to confirm with the stu, but I'll bet you're right! That actually makes some sense, particularly if the prof falsely assumed that the stu meant good and evil of the actions rather than the person. Since she had in mind the person (I had to convince her that she was not going to successfully prove that most crime in Canada is caused by the fundamentally evil character of the criminals, which was what she wanted to do, especially in a sociology rather than religious studies course), "demonology" seems almost eggcorn-like in terms of how she leaped to that mishearing.
Just wanted to give you all the followup. The stu actually had this in email, and the prof indeed wrote "demonology" and had a followup verbal discussion that reaffirmed that. Just reinforces for the nth time in my career that it's good to get unusual requests/orders/statements in writing in case of later dispute.
Wow. I'm glad you followed up!
But now I'm left with so many questions...
In a student resume, in the top of page skills summary "adequate GPA".
Now don't all hurt yourself fighting over who gets to hire this particular student!
It starts. My first "what can I do to get my grade up?" email for the last two weeks of the semester came in today.
Suggestions: time travel and do the work from the beginning?
I so often want to write back and ask "I don't know, what do YOU think you can do to get your grade up?"
-Sneezy
Quote from: mythbuster on November 18, 2019, 01:08:40 PM
In a student resume, in the top of page skills summary "adequate GPA".
Now don't all hurt yourself fighting over who gets to hire this particular student!
Oh, he's already been hired. In fact, he's my boss now and reports directly to the provost.
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 16, 2019, 09:22:42 AM
Just wanted to give you all the followup. The stu actually had this in email, and the prof indeed wrote "demonology" and had a followup verbal discussion that reaffirmed that. Just reinforces for the nth time in my career that it's good to get unusual requests/orders/statements in writing in case of later dispute.
I wonder if the student is just not explaining the assignment well? Or has gotten a garbled idea of what they are supposed to be doing? The idea that bad actions were the result of people coming under the influence of the devil was, at various points, a widely accepted explanation for crime. Plenty of people still believe that in some form. In some sense, it isn't all that different than believing that someone's childhood traumas predispose them to Commit crimes. Obviously demonic influence isn't really going to be an explanation that would fly in the field of criminology, but maybe the point is to explore how ideas about crime might change depending on what theories are adopted? Demonology is a weird word to use though.
Small thing but frustrating.
In a class of mixed majors:
When the education major ignores the assignment instructions which I intentionally structured so that they had ample guidance but I could evaluate and give feedback to all 60 quickly. Yes, fill out the project worksheet making sure you identify all the details you will need. No, don't post me that, only post answers to the few short questions in the actual online assignment so that I know you are on track. It's in the instructions. I said it in class.
"Just wait until you have students of your own..."
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/15738/just-wait-till-you-have-children-of-your-own-by-erma-bombeck-and-bil-keane/
At least make it difficult for me to find the document you plagiarized from so that I can just grade the assignment and move right along. But now I have to have the conversation, give the zero, and initiate Student Code of Conduct.
I had FOUR students in my Brit Lit class do the reading today. Four out of a class that has twenty-one on the rolls (although one of them has never showed up, and some of the others stopped showing up weeks ago). The reading was a very easy-to-read contemporary short story (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/aug/20/featuresreviews.guardianreview18) that I think many of them would actually like.
We had kind of a limping and anemic class discussion with the four, and then I gave them the instructions for the final exam-period activity, which I think was the only reason most of them showed up at all, and then they spent the next half hour being SOOOO CONFUSED about the activity (which requires them to read a couple of texts they haven't seen before without knowing the title or author, and to respond to them from the perspective of a magazine editor in the early twentieth century, and to have some ideas about how these two texts might relate to some of the other things we've read). In other words, if you do not know how to read or interpret literature and you haven't been paying attention all semester, you're screwed, and the SparkNotes won't help you. Good luck.
My provost just sent me an email from a "concerned parent" about an instructor in one of my [Introductory Basketweaving I] sections (I'm the chair). One head bang for each of the following:
1) The complaint doesn't concern "her daughter" who is doing fine, although it is her only class that isn't an A;
2) She is concerned for the other students;
3) The majority of the class is failing (they aren't);
4) The last exam had an average of a 38 (it didn't, it had a 62 - for a practical exam. The LOW was a 6);
5) The professor in question was "fired" from his previous position (he wasn't);
6) The students are "afraid to come forward" (they weren't, they just complained to their department chair, who came to me. I sent her away to tell the students to talk to the professor, then me);
7) There is tutoring available, which indicates how bad the class is since tutoring was needed (that's not how tutoring works) but it was set up so late - the week before Thanksgiving, that is isn't much help (it started Oct 17th);
8) Other sections with other professors have 75-80% averages (they don't);
9) My provost sent it to me, just as an FYI, but didn't respond to the parent. (I certainly am not going to do so)
10) Number of student complaints about [Introductory Basketweaving I] this semester = 4. Number for THIS professor = 0.
What a waste of my emotional time and energy.
Quote from: FishProf on December 06, 2019, 10:44:29 AM
My provost just sent me an email from a "concerned parent" about an instructor in one of my [Introductory Basketweaving I] sections (I'm the chair). One head bang for each of the following:
1) The complaint doesn't concern "her daughter" who is doing fine, although it is her only class that isn't an A;
2) She is concerned for the other students;
3) The majority of the class is failing (they aren't);
4) The last exam had an average of a 38 (it didn't, it had a 62 - for a practical exam. The LOW was a 6);
5) The professor in question was "fired" from his previous position (he wasn't);
6) The students are "afraid to come forward" (they weren't, they just complained to their department chair, who came to me. I sent her away to tell the students to talk to the professor, then me);
7) There is tutoring available, which indicates how bad the class is since tutoring was needed (that's not how tutoring works) but it was set up so late - the week before Thanksgiving, that is isn't much help (it started Oct 17th);
8) Other sections with other professors have 75-80% averages (they don't);
9) My provost sent it to me, just as an FYI, but didn't respond to the parent. (I certainly am not going to do so)
10) Number of student complaints about [Introductory Basketweaving I] this semester = 4. Number for THIS professor = 0.
What a waste of my emotional time and energy.
If I am reading this right, the provost did the right thing by informing you of this, but is neither scolding you nor asking that you respond to this parent. It's just a heads-up for you to file away and keep in mind if you get jumped on the telephone or in your office by some random irate citizen.
And yes, I most definitely would not respond to this parent. That helicopter parent is trolling your college hard to punish you for not giving her perfect daughter an "A". I would not be surprised if this creature copy/pasted these same nastygrams to various college review sites. Anyone writing the provost directly to complain about something as trivial as this this has one enormously hyper-inflated opinion of herself.
My objection is the Provost sent it on, without responding to parent at all.
Quote from: FishProf on December 06, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
My objection is the Provost sent it on, without responding to parent at all.
Well, having had nutjob parents email Board members, etc, and then having provost types eagerly try to please that nutjob parent, I would be grateful the provost let me decide how to handle it.
Quote from: ciao_yall on December 06, 2019, 01:27:47 PM
Quote from: FishProf on December 06, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
My objection is the Provost sent it on, without responding to parent at all.
Well, having had nutjob parents email Board members, etc, and then having provost types eagerly try to please that nutjob parent, I would be grateful the provost let me decide how to handle it.
I would prefer the provost simply reply "The student needs to discuss this with the professor. IF that is unsatisfactory, they should go to the chair of the department". Ya know - follow the procedure laid out in the student handbook.
Student writes me last week right before class asking when the final exam is. In class that day I pull up the exam lookup sheet from the registrar's page and we all look at when our final exam is. I don't respond to student since I figure the question has been answered. Student writes again asking same question before class on Monday. I'm busy and grumpy about this and don't write back right away. In Monday's class another student asks about the final and I pull the thing up again and show them when it is. Yesterday same student writes me with the subject line "no response?" and complains that the final time is not on the syllabus and I haven't written her back. I went back and looked at the attendance. Student hasn't been in class for the last two weeks. Really?
I'm grading essay questions. The students had the question on Wednesday for a Friday exam. An open-note exam.
And yet, they write nonsensical sentences, often misspelling words that are in the question itself.
How is this even possible?
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2019, 10:14:22 AM
Student writes me last week right before class asking when the final exam is. In class that day I pull up the exam lookup sheet from the registrar's page and we all look at when our final exam is. I don't respond to student since I figure the question has been answered. Student writes again asking same question before class on Monday. I'm busy and grumpy about this and don't write back right away. In Monday's class another student asks about the final and I pull the thing up again and show them when it is. Yesterday same student writes me with the subject line "no response?" and complains that the final time is not on the syllabus and I haven't written her back. I went back and looked at the attendance. Student hasn't been in class for the last two weeks. Really?
Last semester, our student advising adminicritter sent an email to all students suggesting they email their instructors to learn their final times. All the students. That was fun. Note: We aren't allowed to change our final exam days or times. When we asked her why she didn't simply attach the final exam schedule to her email, she just sat there blinking.
To her credit, she's good at what she does; but that email won't go on her highlight reel.
"And yet, they write nonsensical sentences, often misspelling words that are in the question itself. How is this even possible?"
I wondered this until I had a child with some ADHD and some dyslexia. He is now 18. He spells his own name wrong a good deal of the time. He can also quote reams of Shakespeare and tell you a good amount of subtle details of ancient history. Yet his spelling remains completely wonky. So as to how it's possible, I'd say that some people's brains are constructed differently from ours.
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2019, 10:14:22 AM
Student writes me last week right before class asking when the final exam is. In class that day I pull up the exam lookup sheet from the registrar's page and we all look at when our final exam is. I don't respond to student since I figure the question has been answered. Student writes again asking same question before class on Monday. I'm busy and grumpy about this and don't write back right away. In Monday's class another student asks about the final and I pull the thing up again and show them when it is. Yesterday same student writes me with the subject line "no response?" and complains that the final time is not on the syllabus and I haven't written her back. I went back and looked at the attendance. Student hasn't been in class for the last two weeks. Really?
Next semester put a line on your syllabus to the effect that all students must have/find/make at least one pal in class with whom they have shared basic contact information, such that when they have to miss class they can get notes & find out other important information. Then, if and only if they don't understand it, they are allowed (and expected) to ask you questions for clarification.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 07, 2019, 04:50:43 PM
"And yet, they write nonsensical sentences, often misspelling words that are in the question itself. How is this even possible?"
I wondered this until I had a child with some ADHD and some dyslexia. He is now 18. He spells his own name wrong a good deal of the time. He can also quote reams of Shakespeare and tell you a good amount of subtle details of ancient history. Yet his spelling remains completely wonky. So as to how it's possible, I'd say that some people's brains are constructed differently from ours.
A reasonable hypothesis, and likely true in some cases. In these cases however, it is ONLY the technical term in the question that gets butchered. In some cases, it is clear that a few students studied together because they butchered the same word in the same way.
Today I learned that the hormone that affects masculinization/feminization in the embryo: Testostrogen.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on December 08, 2019, 07:51:40 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2019, 10:14:22 AM
Student writes me last week right before class asking when the final exam is. In class that day I pull up the exam lookup sheet from the registrar's page and we all look at when our final exam is. I don't respond to student since I figure the question has been answered. Student writes again asking same question before class on Monday. I'm busy and grumpy about this and don't write back right away. In Monday's class another student asks about the final and I pull the thing up again and show them when it is. Yesterday same student writes me with the subject line "no response?" and complains that the final time is not on the syllabus and I haven't written her back. I went back and looked at the attendance. Student hasn't been in class for the last two weeks. Really?
Next semester put a line on your syllabus to the effect that all students must have/find/make at least one pal in class with whom they have shared basic contact information, such that when they have to miss class they can get notes & find out other important information. Then, if and only if they don't understand it, they are allowed (and expected) to ask you questions for clarification.
This seems like an antiquated faculty way of thinking to insist that everyone exchange contact information in case of missing a class instead of using the CMS (out here it would be a wiki/Slack channel/Confluence page) to have any member of the group post useful information that the group needs to know so that missing one day or having one overfull brain during crunch time is a minor thing.
Modeling effective communication is something we employers would very much like faculty members to take seriously and promote.
Quote from: polly_mer on December 09, 2019, 05:03:58 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on December 08, 2019, 07:51:40 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2019, 10:14:22 AM
Student writes me last week right before class asking when the final exam is. In class that day I pull up the exam lookup sheet from the registrar's page and we all look at when our final exam is. I don't respond to student since I figure the question has been answered. Student writes again asking same question before class on Monday. I'm busy and grumpy about this and don't write back right away. In Monday's class another student asks about the final and I pull the thing up again and show them when it is. Yesterday same student writes me with the subject line "no response?" and complains that the final time is not on the syllabus and I haven't written her back. I went back and looked at the attendance. Student hasn't been in class for the last two weeks. Really?
Next semester put a line on your syllabus to the effect that all students must have/find/make at least one pal in class with whom they have shared basic contact information, such that when they have to miss class they can get notes & find out other important information. Then, if and only if they don't understand it, they are allowed (and expected) to ask you questions for clarification.
This seems like an antiquated faculty way of thinking to insist that everyone exchange contact information in case of missing a class instead of using the CMS (out here it would be a wiki/Slack channel/Confluence page) to have any member of the group post useful information that the group needs to know so that missing one day or having one overfull brain during crunch time is a minor thing.
Modeling effective communication is something we employers would very much like faculty members to take seriously and promote.
Of course in this case, all the information the student needed was a google search away so there was really no need to be contacting anyone. I just always find this kind of thing a bit perplexing. Before I would even think about writing my chair or an administrator or anyone with some logistical question, I'm going to see if I can find an answer myself because I don't want to have to wait for a response and I also don't want to be bothering someone with a dumb question.
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
Our exam schedule is determined about a month before the exam date.
I am at a place where final exam schedules are finalized well in advance of the beginning of the semester, and I do put, the date/time/place of the exam on the syllabus. And announce it in class. And on the syllabus. And still people ask.
That said, I sympathize with the generalized annoyance of multiple email questions that make me want to reply "Yes, I can find the answer to this, but you have access to the exact same internet that I do."
Tragically, in the last two weeks, 70% of email triggering this response came from faculty colleagues, not students...
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
Our exam schedule came out just last week. One prof was scheduled for two of her final exams at the same time! She sent out an email requesting other faculty to cover because we do not have TAs.
Quote from: xerprofrn on December 09, 2019, 07:52:09 PM
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
Our exam schedule came out just last week. One prof was scheduled for two of her final exams at the same time! She sent out an email requesting other faculty to cover because we do not have TAs.
What. The. Hell. That is clear-cut administrative incompetence. Is this a public university? A regionally accredited university?
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
I too am at an institution that does not post a final exam schedule until late in the semester. Also, we have to request to have a final, it's not automatically assumed you will be giving one. As soon as the exam schedule is posted, I add the date/time to our CMS - but the students don't always bother to read it so I ask them a couple times during the last weeks of class, "When is our final?" "In what room is our final?" because I teach mutiple sections of a single course and all their finals take place at the same time in one of the big lecture halls.
At my undergrad institution, the exam schedule was fixed, for example, all MWF 8 AM classes will have their final on Tuesday from 10-11:50 AM. My graduate institution did something similar to what we do here, faculty requested to have an exam, and at some point during the semester, the schedule was posted.
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 10, 2019, 06:47:36 AM
I too am at an institution that does not post a final exam schedule until late in the semester. Also, we have to request to have a final, it's not automatically assumed you will be giving one. As soon as the exam schedule is posted, I add the date/time to our CMS - but the students don't always bother to read it so I ask them a couple times during the last weeks of class, "When is our final?" "In what room is our final?" because I teach mutiple sections of a single course and all their finals take place at the same time in one of the big lecture halls.
That is extraordinarily generous, not requiring college courses to have final exams, or even final exam dates. This is the first time I have heard of such a practice, defaulted across an entire institution. Is this a U.S. university?
I've worked at three public universities and one private across four different states, and final exams were expected and assumed at all of them. For the three public universities, faculty were even harangued by the senior administration to ensure that they at least met with students for the final exam date.
At Big Urban College, our final exam schedule for NEXT SPRING was posted back in early October. We needed that date so that we could put it onto our Spring syllabus schedules.
Quote from: Aster on December 13, 2019, 08:03:54 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 10, 2019, 06:47:36 AM
I too am at an institution that does not post a final exam schedule until late in the semester. Also, we have to request to have a final, it's not automatically assumed you will be giving one. As soon as the exam schedule is posted, I add the date/time to our CMS - but the students don't always bother to read it so I ask them a couple times during the last weeks of class, "When is our final?" "In what room is our final?" because I teach mutiple sections of a single course and all their finals take place at the same time in one of the big lecture halls.
That is extraordinarily generous, not requiring college courses to have final exams, or even final exam dates. This is the first time I have heard of such a practice, defaulted across an entire institution. Is this a U.S. university?
I've worked at three public universities and one private across four different states, and final exams were expected and assumed at all of them. For the three public universities, faculty were even harangued by the senior administration to ensure that they at least met with students for the final exam date.
At Big Urban College, our final exam schedule for NEXT SPRING was posted back in early October. We needed that date so that we could put it onto our Spring syllabus schedules.
Yes, it is a US institution, mid-sized and private. Most regular courses do have final exams, but not all. For example, in my senior level engineering elective course, there is no final exam because they have an intensive project that they present in the last two lab sessions of the semester. Some of the "welcome to college" type courses for freshmen don't have final exams. I know some of our other engineering courses have projects instead of finals. My freshman course has both a project and a final. I think they phrase it as having some sort of "meaningful activity" at the end of the semester, but it doesn't have to be an exam.
Oh. I misread you. I thought you wrote that your entire institution defaulted to opting out of final exams unless the professor intervened.
Yeah, for certain course types and disciplines (e.g. creative writing, project courses), it is normal to not have a final exam (or if there is one, it's completed earlier to allow grading time).
Quote from: Aster on December 13, 2019, 10:57:46 AM
Oh. I misread you. I thought you wrote that your entire institution defaulted to opting out of final exams unless the professor intervened.
Yeah, for certain course types and disciplines (e.g. creative writing, project courses), it is normal to not have a final exam (or if there is one, it's completed earlier to allow grading time).
Well, we do have to specifically request a final. It's simple to do though. We receive a message during the semester that says basically, "Are you giving a final, yes or no?" We click a link, insert any special requests (such as if you teach multiple sections of a course, do you want multiple exam times, or do you want all sections to take the final at the same time), and then several weeks later the class you requested a final for shows up on the final exam schedule with a date, time, and location.
I'm thinking that I should make all the final due date, including the final exam and the final paper, for 2 weeks before the end of the semester.
Then when all the students email me about how desparately they need to pass, keep their scholarships, or get their lives together, then there will still be time for them to do something about it.
I just had the "You are not passing and now you are not graduating" talk. Bleah.
Stu Dent failed three of five major assessments and ended up with a high D. But not a borderline D. Not that anyone has any obligation to bump-up borderline grades, but that wasn't even a situation in this instance.
Explaining that "needing 1.5% percentage points" is not at all the same thing as "needing just 1.5 points" should not be something that professional educators at universities should be doing. Not when the course is made up of several hundred points and each point bears only a fractional amount to a course percentage point. It is also peculiar that certain students only exhibit confusion and ignorance of percentages at the end of an academic term, and only when a letter grade approaches the next higher tier of letter grade.
No, there is no more extra credit. And you still failed most of your major exams. Heck, two of the exam grades were F's. Yes, I double-checked your final exam for scoring errors. Heck, I was generous in grading your final exam.
I am very sorry, but I am still not changing your grade to passing.
This was a very painful conversation. Stu Dent literally fell down on his knees and squeezed his head with both hands. All of his friends passed the class and are moving on.
I wonder if Stu Dent will magically receive a passing grade from a benevolent Dean. The pressure on our college to crank out graduates is pretty high.
Quote from: downer on December 16, 2019, 02:00:59 PM
I'm thinking that I should make all the final due date, including the final exam and the final paper, for 2 weeks before the end of the semester.
Then when all the students email me about how desparately they need to pass, keep their scholarships, or get their lives together, then there will still be time for them to do something about it.
Yes, I got a raft of those before I turned in grades. Inevitably they were all from people who had missed tons of class. Is there anything I can do, can I get extra credit? No, the extra credit is the 15 percent of the grade that you get if you just come to class and do the reading responses. Also we did have extra credit. It was in class, you probably weren't there. Perhaps you could take up all of this with your past self.
Quote from: Caracal on December 17, 2019, 03:15:57 PM
Quote from: downer on December 16, 2019, 02:00:59 PM
I'm thinking that I should make all the final due date, including the final exam and the final paper, for 2 weeks before the end of the semester.
Then when all the students email me about how desparately they need to pass, keep their scholarships, or get their lives together, then there will still be time for them to do something about it.
Yes, I got a raft of those before I turned in grades. Inevitably they were all from people who had missed tons of class. Is there anything I can do, can I get extra credit? No, the extra credit is the 15 percent of the grade that you get if you just come to class and do the reading responses. Also we did have extra credit. It was in class, you probably weren't there. Perhaps you could take up all of this with your past self.
I might try it as a one off, and see what happens. Although it might cause some consternation that I'm ending the semester 2 weeks early, so maybe at a time when I am ready to let go of that job. If I also tried to cram the same amount of work into the semester as usual, it would be a bit hard on the students since each week would be harder than usual, until we finish 2 weeks early. My guess is that failers are gonna fail, whatever I do.
I want to beat my head against the wall. Grades just posted for the quarter and I've already gotten the first email questioning my grading ability and how many points were taken for formatting. But if you do one essay and I'm lenient about the grading but make TONS of specific comments about how to format in this particular style for next time AND provide examples and links, I really do expect you to make changes for next time. Not get "Oh, I didn't realize how serious you were." I'm pretty transparent. I explain things in class (also on the powerpoint handout you get), provide rubrics so you can see how many points for each aspect, and give specific comments on earlier papers. *sigh*
(This is a GRADUATE class, by the way)
Well I just got my first "offer" email.
"...is there anyway I could possibly get it up to an 87 to boost my grade to a B+ or is there anything that I could do for you before 4 o'clock today."
Yikes.
My friend got a course evaluation complaining that he is too "nick picky."
Well, it was the first really cold day of the year. As usual I was filling in for a regular teacher at a high school. In one of the class periods [block style] a female asked if she could keep warm by sitting in a small alcove behind the teacher's desk that had a little space heater there. In a proximate block I fell, evidently, into a deep sleep and was video recorded as being such, and this was recorded on "SNAP CHAT", and was available for viewing by the entire student body and faculty/administration. An, in my opinion, young dependable, upperclassman remarked at a time proximate to the my sleeping/student taping event, that, when I yawned, the yawn was so deep and large that he "felt" it!
Now, this would not normally be note worthy, as I certainly have nodded off a little bit in classes previously during my 15 years of teaching; however, there was a report on National Public Radio in late November or early December which gave me the idea of a connection between the experience of a middle school school bus driver and my sleeping in school incident. It seems that the bus driver felt overwhelmed by noxious fumes which he (or she?) attributed to a newly popular deodorant which students [also at schools I have taught in] slathered on themselves (I believe it is called AXE). To encapsulate the event by accusation, I think the students that videotaped me gassed me with the stuff by heating it in my desk area. And, this caused me to be rebuked by my supervisor in front of the High School Principal! I might be reaching, but I felt that I should make others aware that they might possibly have something similar happen them.
This was reported during a NPR humor show. The panel members on that show did keep things light by remarking that the bus might have even become more noxious had the middle school students on board not been wearing that deodorant.
Quote from: Aster on December 10, 2019, 06:04:54 AM
Quote from: xerprofrn on December 09, 2019, 07:52:09 PM
Quote from: Aster on December 09, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Is there some reason why you can't just put the final exam date on the course syllabus?
Does the university not notify all faculty the final exam scheduling times for all courses before the term begins?
Our exam schedule came out just last week. One prof was scheduled for two of her final exams at the same time! She sent out an email requesting other faculty to cover because we do not have TAs.
What. The. Hell. That is clear-cut administrative incompetence. Is this a public university? A regionally accredited university?
Small, upper-division, private specialty school that has been around more than 100 years. On top of that, the registrar sent an email about room changes to some final exams at 6 p.m. on the day before finals were to begin. Faculty were then responsible for ensuring their students were in the right place.
Tuesday:
Stu Dent [strolls into class a few minutes early]: "What are we supposed to do today?"
Me [having distributed the syllabus in print & on the LMS last week]: Did you check the syllabus?
Stu: No.
Me: There's a reading assignment and some questions in your book.
Stu: I left the book in my room.
Me: Uh-huh. Well, do the best you can.
In class Tuesday, I give the class a writing assignment for Thursday that does NOT require reference to this book. This writing assignment is posted on the LMS.
Wednesday night:
Stu [email]: Hey professor 0susanna it turns out I don't actually have the book because it's on backorder. How can I get it so I can write the essay?
Me [receiving this email Thursday AM, and after banging head on desk]: politely sends lying, clueless Stu the necessary info, urging him to read his syllabus.
Thursday: Stu is absent.
The rest of the students in this class seem pretty good, and I'm happy to be working with them. I'm worried about Stu, though.
Quote from: 0susanna on January 16, 2020, 10:06:33 AM
Tuesday:
Stu Dent [strolls into class a few minutes early]: "What are we supposed to do today?"
Me [having distributed the syllabus in print & on the LMS last week]: Did you check the syllabus?
Stu: No.
Me: There's a reading assignment and some questions in your book.
Stu: I left the book in my room.
Me: Uh-huh. Well, do the best you can.
In class Tuesday, I give the class a writing assignment for Thursday that does NOT require reference to this book. This writing assignment is posted on the LMS.
Wednesday night:
Stu [email]: Hey professor 0susanna it turns out I don't actually have the book because it's on backorder. How can I get it so I can write the essay?
Me [receiving this email Thursday AM, and after banging head on desk]: politely sends lying, clueless Stu the necessary info, urging him to read his syllabus.
Thursday: Stu is absent.
The rest of the students in this class seem pretty good, and I'm happy to be working with them. I'm worried about Stu, though.
Wow. You know, I hate it when I confuse the books in my room with my books that are on backorder.
Quote from: 0susanna on January 16, 2020, 10:06:33 AM
I'm worried about Stu, though.
If you're lucky, he'll drop the course soon. If not, don't worry much about him as long as you're upholding standards and doing your job. One student like this can consume far too much of your time if you let that happen and are hyper-responsive to his emails. Maybe he has personal problems, have the Counseling Center number handy.
In my classes (especially the online one) I use online quizzes to keep everyone on task and get a feel for class progress. When I have students with time accommodations, they need a way to know that the quiz time for them has been extended appropriately. So, I give them the accommodation rounded up to the next Prime number (i.e 10 minutes becomes 17, 15 becomes 23, etc). After three days of back and forth with a student who is despairing over being sure her quizzes are the right length, I sent this: "As I have stated, when you look at the time allowed for the quiz, IF it is a PRIME number, then the quiz has been set correctly for you".
Of course, I get the response: "What is a Prime number"?
Oh dear student, if you had typed that into Google instead of your email, you'd already know the answer.
We're in week three of the term.
Stu Dent comes up to me after class and wants to know if he has to take the final exam.
Me: "Yes. Final exams are mandatory."
Stu Dent: "I will be out of the country two weeks before then. Can't you set something up for me?" Yeah, he actually used those words.
Me: "No. The final exam schedule is on the syllabus. I do not even *make* the final exam until after the last class meeting of the term has finished. If you did not intend to be here at the end of the term, you should not have signed up for this course."
I suppose I'll have to see if he's got legit documentation for leaving the country. But dang, jumping me at the end of class and asking for special treatment over the final exam was not the ideal way to get a desirable outcome.
Hold firm.
M.
Offer that he could take a final exam 3 weeks early. Just use one from a previous year. I tell students they can always take exams early, since the penalty is baked right in.
Stu Dent argues that he absolutely needs to be in my class to maintain his study permit eligibility because he dropped another class in favour of mine on the assumption that he would get in. *facepalm*
Worse, he made the assumption he'd get in the day after add/drop, when my waitlist went from 35 students (down from 75!) to him and someone else. *facepalm again*
(Why the waitlist doesn't automatically go to 0 after add/drop, I don't know.)
Quote from: mythbuster on January 22, 2020, 02:57:43 PM
Offer that he could take a final exam 3 weeks early. Just use one from a previous year. I tell students they can always take exams early, since the penalty is baked right in.
If word of that were to get out, at least 20% of the student body at Big Urban College would demand that they be allowed to take their final exams early.
And Big Urban College would have a seizure over students not meeting their minimum course contact hours. The administration is extremely anal about that.
And then most of the faculty would use this as an excuse to no longer hold final exams. We already have a significant problem with a lot of professors who frequently cancel classes without administrative approval, especially near the end of term.
College policy is for all faculty to hold final exams, and to hold those exams at specified calendar times that cap off the contact hour requirement. I think that the college does this specifically in response to irresponsible professor behaviors (not holding finals) and to protect faculty against coercion from students.
Dear Dr. Mode,
I know in the instructions on Canvas it said to do [very particular and necessary thing]. But I did [something it specifically said not to do]. Is that why I am getting this error message [includes screen grab]? Can you help me with this?
Best regards,
Stu
AARRRRGGGGHHH!!! At least he was polite about it. But he's a senior. He should have learned how to read and follow instructions by now.
Quote from: Aster on January 22, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
And then most of the faculty would use this as an excuse to no longer hold final exams. We already have a significant problem with a lot of professors who frequently cancel classes without administrative approval, especially near the end of term.
College policy is for all faculty to hold final exams, and to hold those exams at specified calendar times that cap off the contact hour requirement. I think that the college does this specifically in response to irresponsible professor behaviors (not holding finals) and to protect faculty against coercion from students.
Is it a significant problem if it helps the college move away from the mandatory final exam policy? Other than fulfilling the contact hours requirement, why is it so important for every course to have a final exam? Why not let faculty choose what requirements are best for their own courses? Couldn't the hours requirement be fulfilled by using another class activity?
Quote from: Cheerful on January 23, 2020, 07:34:41 AM
Quote from: Aster on January 22, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
And then most of the faculty would use this as an excuse to no longer hold final exams. We already have a significant problem with a lot of professors who frequently cancel classes without administrative approval, especially near the end of term.
College policy is for all faculty to hold final exams, and to hold those exams at specified calendar times that cap off the contact hour requirement. I think that the college does this specifically in response to irresponsible professor behaviors (not holding finals) and to protect faculty against coercion from students.
Is it a significant problem if it helps the college move away from the mandatory final exam policy? Other than fulfilling the contact hours requirement, why is it so important for every course to have a final exam? Why not let faculty choose what requirements are best for their own courses? Couldn't the hours requirement be fulfilled by using another class activity?
I think "final exam" in this case can be read "final exam or other culminating experience". I certainly have used the final exam period for presentations of semester long work.
Quote from: Cheerful on January 23, 2020, 07:34:41 AM
Quote from: Aster on January 22, 2020, 03:36:14 PM
And then most of the faculty would use this as an excuse to no longer hold final exams. We already have a significant problem with a lot of professors who frequently cancel classes without administrative approval, especially near the end of term.
College policy is for all faculty to hold final exams, and to hold those exams at specified calendar times that cap off the contact hour requirement. I think that the college does this specifically in response to irresponsible professor behaviors (not holding finals) and to protect faculty against coercion from students.
Is it a significant problem if it helps the college move away from the mandatory final exam policy? Other than fulfilling the contact hours requirement, why is it so important for every course to have a final exam? Why not let faculty choose what requirements are best for their own courses? Couldn't the hours requirement be fulfilled by using another class activity?
We're not a high quality institution. Most of our professors are part-timers that string together other part-time teaching gigs across four counties. We have a lot of professors that don't come to class, stop the terms early, are late to class, don't answer emails, etc...
Many of our tenure track professors do the same thing. String together extra jobs at other institutions, stop the terms early, are late to class, don't answer emails, etc...
Ive long observed an inverse relationship between the quality of an academic institution and the overall bureaucracy and red tape of the institution. At low-quality institutions with a lot of bureaucracy, much of the bureaucracy is required just to hold a minimum level of basic accountability of college employees.
Mandatory final exams are one of the lines in the sand that Big Urban College has made to keep the bad professors more accountable. Having worked here for a while, I can't really disagree with the reasoning anymore.
Quote from: Aster on January 22, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
We're in week three of the term.
Stu Dent comes up to me after class and wants to know if he has to take the final exam.
Me: "Yes. Final exams are mandatory."
Stu Dent: "I will be out of the country two weeks before then. Can't you set something up for me?" Yeah, he actually used those words.
Me: "No. The final exam schedule is on the syllabus. I do not even *make* the final exam until after the last class meeting of the term has finished. If you did not intend to be here at the end of the term, you should not have signed up for this course."
I suppose I'll have to see if he's got legit documentation for leaving the country. But dang, jumping me at the end of class and asking for special treatment over the final exam was not the ideal way to get a desirable outcome.
I'd smile and say "Sure! If you are passing the class when it's time for the final, then you take an Incomplete and take the final exam when you return. Please send me documentation of your confirmed travel plans no later than [date]." Contact their academic advisor to let them know about this student's plans. They may be hoping to somehow just skip out on a huge chunk of all of their classes with no repercussions.
My brain needs a solid break from critically evaluating student work, even if it's just whether their answer is correct or wrong.
back to grading...
I suspected that some students weren't taking notes or doing the reading for this course, but the answers on the first exam are surprisingly bad.
QuoteQ: Define "Visible Sanctity" and explain how it applies to Rowlandson's captivity narrative?
A: She's a liar and everyone knows that she's a liar but now she's in the public eye and we know it.
QuoteQ: List some of the main tenets of Enlightenment thinking and explain how either Paine or Franklin demonstrate those tenets.
A: Paine says that we should do what makes us feel good, like Buddhism.
QuoteQ: What was the spiritual and emotional movement that arose in the 1730s in response to Enlightenment thinking?
A: Somnambulism
QuoteQ: Where does Crevecouer argue that Americans get their "goodness and virtue?"
A: In the essay.
QuoteQ: Define "perverse" and explain how it applies to Charles Brockden Brown's story?
A: Charles says that we have to perverse our way of life and make America great again
.
Quote from: Aster on January 23, 2020, 10:58:08 AM
We're not a high quality institution. Most of our professors are part-timers that string together other part-time teaching gigs across four counties. We have a lot of professors that don't come to class, stop the terms early, are late to class, don't answer emails, etc...
Many of our tenure track professors do the same thing. String together extra jobs at other institutions, stop the terms early, are late to class, don't answer emails, etc...
Ive long observed an inverse relationship between the quality of an academic institution and the overall bureaucracy and red tape of the institution. At low-quality institutions with a lot of bureaucracy, much of the bureaucracy is required just to hold a minimum level of basic accountability of college employees.
This is very true, in my experience. Every dollar saved by the elimination of tenure-track appointments gets spent on yet more administrators to make the adjuncts play nice. On the other hand, college exists to provide an outlet for administrative work (right?), so carry on.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 01, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
I suspected that some students weren't taking notes or doing the reading for this course, but the answers on the first exam are surprisingly bad.
QuoteQ: Define "Visible Sanctity" and explain how it applies to Rowlandson's captivity narrative?
A: She's a liar and everyone knows that she's a liar but now she's in the public eye and we know it.
QuoteQ: List some of the main tenets of Enlightenment thinking and explain how either Paine or Franklin demonstrate those tenets.
A: Paine says that we should do what makes us feel good, like Buddhism.
QuoteQ: What was the spiritual and emotional movement that arose in the 1730s in response to Enlightenment thinking?
A: Somnambulism
QuoteQ: Where does Crevecouer argue that Americans get their "goodness and virtue?"
A: In the essay.
QuoteQ: Define "perverse" and explain how it applies to Charles Brockden Brown's story?
A: Charles says that we have to perverse our way of life and make America great again
.
OMG. At least the third one sounds like the student was making a joke on purpose, but the others ... ouch.
Proctoring an exam for an upper level course for majors, one of the exam questions was something like "Name 2 molecules that are essential for Biological Process X."
I had over a dozen students wave me over so they could ask: "Does a protein count as a molecule?"
It got worse.
One student asked me, "Is a cell considered a molecule?"
Another student: "When the exam says 'molecule', does that mean, like, a certain population of cells?"
If this were a gen ed course for non-majors I would find these questions disappointing. As a required course aimed at juniors and seniors in the major, I find them rather frightening. It's not like "molecule" is some obscure technical term. Is it not typical for the concept of molecules to be taught at least by the end of middle school? Certainly by the end of high school, I would hope. And they must have encountered the word many times over in their first two years of college science courses... What happened?
We learned it in seventh-grade science.
By the 10th grade, we had to write down 10 cell organelles and define them (some of which had been identified and described only a few years before....). I could probably still do them....we had an exigent biology teacher.
My 11th grade English composition paper was on the "Chronological History of the Discovery of the Chemical Elements" (my 10th grade paper was on the history of ballet..).
So...yeah.
M.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2020, 10:02:25 AM
Proctoring an exam for an upper level course for majors, one of the exam questions was something like "Name 2 molecules that are essential for Biological Process X."
I had over a dozen students wave me over so they could ask: "Does a protein count as a molecule?"
It got worse.
One student asked me, "Is a cell considered a molecule?"
Another student: "When the exam says 'molecule', does that mean, like, a certain population of cells?"
If this were a gen ed course for non-majors I would find these questions disappointing. As a required course aimed at juniors and seniors in the major, I find them rather frightening. It's not like "molecule" is some obscure technical term. Is it not typical for the concept of molecules to be taught at least by the end of middle school? Certainly by the end of high school, I would hope. And they must have encountered the word many times over in their first two years of college science courses... What happened?
This is modern America. Many secondary schools no longer teach basic chemistry. Or they do teach it, but a high percentage of high school students flunk it, but those students are given a high school diploma anyway.
But you said that you were proctoring an
upper division majors course, so I'm not sure how any of these students got through freshman biology. They could not have passed freshman biology with the level of knowledge gaps you are describing. It would just not be possible.
They would also have been required to have anywhere between 1-2 years of chemistry already as well if they were junior/senior biology majors.
So unless they took their science courses fully online at Grand Canyon or Keiser and were just a money funnel for the corporate shareholders, these students should be not only exposed to basic freshman biology/chemistry vocabulary but well also well familiar with it.
If these unfortunately incompetent students took their freshman biology and chemistry at your university, then your university has a very serious problem with some of its faculty.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 02, 2020, 10:02:25 AM
Proctoring an exam for an upper level course for majors, one of the exam questions was something like "Name 2 molecules that are essential for Biological Process X."
I had over a dozen students wave me over so they could ask: "Does a protein count as a molecule?"
It got worse.
One student asked me, "Is a cell considered a molecule?"
Another student: "When the exam says 'molecule', does that mean, like, a certain population of cells?"
If this were a gen ed course for non-majors I would find these questions disappointing. As a required course aimed at juniors and seniors in the major, I find them rather frightening. It's not like "molecule" is some obscure technical term. Is it not typical for the concept of molecules to be taught at least by the end of middle school? Certainly by the end of high school, I would hope. And they must have encountered the word many times over in their first two years of college science courses... What happened?
Honestly, I'm not too surprised. They might have been having a panic-ing moment of uncertainty. I'm sure they remember that an ion is a molecule, but might be forgetting that a protein is a molecule too. For the whole "is a population of cells a molecule?" student, I have no idea. I pity whoever has to grade that question.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 01, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
I suspected that some students weren't taking notes or doing the reading for this course, but the answers on the first exam are surprisingly bad.
QuoteQ: Define "Visible Sanctity" and explain how it applies to Rowlandson's captivity narrative?
A: She's a liar and everyone knows that she's a liar but now she's in the public eye and we know it.
QuoteQ: List some of the main tenets of Enlightenment thinking and explain how either Paine or Franklin demonstrate those tenets.
A: Paine says that we should do what makes us feel good, like Buddhism.
QuoteQ: What was the spiritual and emotional movement that arose in the 1730s in response to Enlightenment thinking?
A: Somnambulism
QuoteQ: Where does Crevecouer argue that Americans get their "goodness and virtue?"
A: In the essay.
QuoteQ: Define "perverse" and explain how it applies to Charles Brockden Brown's story?
A: Charles says that we have to perverse our way of life and make America great again
.
Reminds me of the Colonial Latin America course I assisted with years ago. We gave an exam that yielded all kinds of nuggets like this. This was at a "U.S. News & World Report" top 25 university, too.
Love the one about Thomas Paine and Buddhism.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 01, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
I suspected that some students weren't taking notes or doing the reading for this course, but the answers on the first exam are surprisingly bad.
QuoteQ: Where does Crevecouer argue that Americans get their "goodness and virtue?"
A: In the essay.
I like the one about "perverse"-ing our culture.
But I have to admit I had a brain cramp with the one above. Did you mean "where" as in "in what work" did he describe it or where as in "from where" do Americans get their goodness?
The answer is wrong in both cases, but it's also a pretty cute way to acknowledge "I can't remember" if you wanted the title of the essay...
Quote from: onthefringe on February 03, 2020, 11:29:44 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 01, 2020, 09:41:59 AM
I suspected that some students weren't taking notes or doing the reading for this course, but the answers on the first exam are surprisingly bad.
QuoteQ: Where does Crevecouer argue that Americans get their "goodness and virtue?"
A: In the essay.
I like the one about "perverse"-ing our culture.
But I have to admit I had a brain cramp with the one above. Did you mean "where" as in "in what work" did he describe it or where as in "from where" do Americans get their goodness?
The answer is wrong in both cases, but it's also a pretty cute way to acknowledge "I can't remember" if you wanted the title of the essay...
I was hoping for "the soil" or "geography" or somewhere in that ballpark. It's a literal "where," but I guess I'll have to reword that question for future exams.
To smallclean rat. I just wrote my exam for upper level (Jr/Sr majors) microbiology. One question asks them to rank items in order of increasing size. The terms include glucose (a molecule), hemoglobin ( a protein), a bacteria, and a human cell. I know from past experience that many students fell this is one of the hardest test questions I have ever written!
So it's not just you.
Quote from: Aster on February 03, 2020, 10:51:45 AM
...
So unless they took their science courses fully online at Grand Canyon or Keiser and were just a money funnel for the corporate shareholders, these students should be not only exposed to basic freshman biology/chemistry vocabulary but well also well familiar with it.
If these unfortunately incompetent students took their freshman biology and chemistry at your university, then your university has a very serious problem with some of its faculty.
This was exactly why I was so perplexed and, frankly, disturbed. They had to have read/heard about molecules so many times to get to this course. Like the_geneticist suggests, some of this could have simply been exam nerves making them second-guess themselves; and I've definitely blanked on basic knowledge when in a state of high anxiety. But I was surprised by the sheer number of students who seemed to have stumbled upon reading this question. Perhaps, since proteins are so often composed of subunits, they weren't sure if a protein would be considered a single molecule?
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 03, 2020, 10:55:53 AM
Honestly, I'm not too surprised. They might have been having a panic-ing moment of uncertainty. I'm sure they remember that an ion is a molecule, but might be forgetting that a protein is a molecule too. For the whole "is a population of cells a molecule?" student, I have no idea. I pity whoever has to grade that question.
As for the "population of cells" query...the only thing I can think of is the possibility the student somehow muddled "molecule" with "module" (as in a network of cells/cell populations contributing to a particular physiological function). But that seems a bit of a stretch...
Generally, I'm not supposed to help students with definitions during exams, but the first student asking the question surprised me so much, I said, "Wha..? Yes! A protein is a molecule!" before I could stop myself. So for the sake of fairness, I verified this for everyone that asked. For the students who wondered whether cells are molecules: "N-no...no, they're made of
lots of molecules aren't they? Think smaller..."
Quote from: mythbuster on February 03, 2020, 12:37:53 PM
To smallclean rat. I just wrote my exam for upper level (Jr/Sr majors) microbiology. One question asks them to rank items in order of increasing size. The terms include glucose (a molecule), hemoglobin ( a protein), a bacteria, and a human cell. I know from past experience that many students fell this is one of the hardest test questions I have ever written!
So it's not just you.
Hmm...which comparison do you suppose they are finding the trickiest? My guess would be bacteria vs. human cell; since they are both cells perhaps students imagine them as about the same size? I would hope that nobody thought glucose or hemoglobin would be bigger than a cell...
They find the sub cellular components more difficult, since we overtly discussed the difference between prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells in lecture. But the difference in size between one glucose and a hemoglobin protein they find really difficult to grasp.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2020, 03:16:10 PM
This was exactly why I was so perplexed and, frankly, disturbed. They had to have read/heard about molecules so many times to get to this course. Like the_geneticist suggests, some of this could have simply been exam nerves making them second-guess themselves; and I've definitely blanked on basic knowledge when in a state of high anxiety. But I was surprised by the sheer number of students who seemed to have stumbled upon reading this question. Perhaps, since proteins are so often composed of subunits, they weren't sure if a protein would be considered a single molecule?
Or perhaps they were thinking that proteins are composed of amino acids, and not remembering that the protein is a single molecule even though it can be broken apart. That's a bit less reassuring.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2020, 03:16:10 PM
Generally, I'm not supposed to help students with definitions during exams, but the first student asking the question surprised me so much, I said, "Wha..? Yes! A protein is a molecule!" before I could stop myself. So for the sake of fairness, I verified this for everyone that asked. For the students who wondered whether cells are molecules: "N-no...no, they're made of lots of molecules aren't they? Think smaller..."
My usual answer would be, "What do you think?" If I'm generous, I might follow up with "Go with that" if it's appropriate or "Keep thinking about it." But I can easily imaging being surprised enough to answer more directly.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 03, 2020, 12:37:53 PM
To smallclean rat. I just wrote my exam for upper level (Jr/Sr majors) microbiology. One question asks them to rank items in order of increasing size. The terms include glucose (a molecule), hemoglobin ( a protein), a bacteria, and a human cell. I know from past experience that many students fell this is one of the hardest test questions I have ever written!
This is a cool visualization:
https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/cells/scale/
I try to emphasize paying attention to the general size or number of things, but most students find it difficult. When I ask questions that rely on that perspective, even to within one or two orders of magnitude, they tend to have a hard time with them and consider them to be mean or unfair. I also expect junior and senior bio majors to know basic SI prefixes, but I have learned that many of them don't know what micro- means and some of them can't reliably convert between milli-things, centi-things, and deci-things. I should probably make a handout listing things like that which they should already know and post it on the CMS at the start of each term so they can't say they weren't warned.
This may be similar to the named book up thread, but this issue made me think of Kees Boeke' 1957 book, " The Cosmic view," too...
M.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 03, 2020, 03:16:10 PM
Quote from: Aster on February 03, 2020, 10:51:45 AM
...
So unless they took their science courses fully online at Grand Canyon or Keiser and were just a money funnel for the corporate shareholders, these students should be not only exposed to basic freshman biology/chemistry vocabulary but well also well familiar with it.
If these unfortunately incompetent students took their freshman biology and chemistry at your university, then your university has a very serious problem with some of its faculty.
This was exactly why I was so perplexed and, frankly, disturbed. They had to have read/heard about molecules so many times to get to this course. Like the_geneticist suggests, some of this could have simply been exam nerves making them second-guess themselves; and I've definitely blanked on basic knowledge when in a state of high anxiety. But I was surprised by the sheer number of students who seemed to have stumbled upon reading this question.
Are you new at this institution? I ask because I, too, was horrified at what upper-division biology students didn't know in their major that should have been well established in their minds by the end of high school. I was not at all surprised to learn that even seniors didn't always graduate (not just on-time, but failing enough courses that they just went away) and almost no recent biology graduates were in jobs that required a college degree, let alone one using their major.
At least at Super Dinky, the meme was true that students majored in biology because STEM means a high-paying job, but they really didn't learn or like biology nor did they manage to pick up much along the way for other parts of STEM.
The upside to working at a 4-year university is that you can calibrate your freshman classes to properly teach your students what you expect out of them for upper division classes. And you can calibrate your upper division courses to align properly with where the freshman classes end off.
So if your microbiology students are shockingly bad at basic level freshman content, your department can get its act together and make sure that essential freshman-level content is taught. Or the department can decide that some basic-level stuff will now be taught at the upper divisional level. Either way, there is a mechanism in place to correct for upper division course expectations.
The ideal situation at 4-year universities is for most faculty to periodically rotate through freshman level classes. This gives professors direct experience in understanding and shaping lower division curricula to optimally align with upper division curricula.
I have taught this computer art class for five years now and this was, by far, the saddest set of first projects I have ever had. I always expect a couple of stinkers as many students have not used the computer as an art tool before but holy cow. It's not so much the lack of technical ability it is the almost across the board ignoring of all the warnings I gave about the process.
Changing your idea multiple times before the project is due is a terrible idea, didn't stop a third of the class from doing it. Missing the critique is a terrible idea, didn't stop multiple students from doing it. Not doing multiple test prints to adjust your color before presenting for critique is a terrible idea. Telling me that you had the project finished at home but your laptop failed so now you don't have your file does not, in fact, make me sympathetic. I told you at the beginning of the class that losing your files was equivalent to telling me that the dog ate your homework.
I believe in giving students room to fail and boy did some of you take me up on that. I do appreciate that the majority of you had the decency to at least look embarrassed when we hung the work up.
Aster, that is all great in theory. But the reality hear at Compass Point State is that over half of our majors transfer in. So all that hard work you put into the intro courses may all be for nothing, since you have to re-teach it all to the other 60+%.
Our university is making a switch to offering students ebook rental at a flat annual rate. As far as I can tell so far, 10 percent of students take advantage of this service to save money on textbooks, and the rest of them use it as cover for not accessing any of the books at all.
For nearly the entirety of an hour and a half lecture today, one guy sitting near the front had his finger so far up his nose I was afraid that the sharp-toothed snail Shel Silverstein warns about (https://i2.wp.com/thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Warning-Poem.jpg) was going to bite it right off.
So a student filed a grade appeal stating that the reason she plagiarized the second Comp. II essay (she never submitted the first one) in my class last semester . . . as in didn't remove the hyperlinks from all the cutting and pasting, didn't have a single citation, and didn't have a works cited page . . . was that I hadn't taught her MLA formatting and that she hadn't learned it in Comp. I either. So it's the college's fault she didn't know what she was doing.
But wait, it gets even more stupider: Adminicritter Columbo discovered that she had attended only two times in the Comp. I class, failed it, and shouldn't have been allowed into my Comp. II class in the first place.
I've been told not to worry about it, so I'm not.
Oops. Didn't mean to double post.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 13, 2020, 06:27:17 AM
I have taught this computer art class for five years now and this was, by far, the saddest set of first projects I have ever had. I always expect a couple of stinkers as many students have not used the computer as an art tool before but holy cow. It's not so much the lack of technical ability it is the almost across the board ignoring of all the warnings I gave about the process.
Changing your idea multiple times before the project is due is a terrible idea, didn't stop a third of the class from doing it. Missing the critique is a terrible idea, didn't stop multiple students from doing it. Not doing multiple test prints to adjust your color before presenting for critique is a terrible idea. Telling me that you had the project finished at home but your laptop failed so now you don't have your file does not, in fact, make me sympathetic. I told you at the beginning of the class that losing your files was equivalent to telling me that the dog ate your homework.
I believe in giving students room to fail and boy did some of you take me up on that. I do appreciate that the majority of you had the decency to at least look embarrassed when we hung the work up.
I changed the science-for-teachers course I inherited because warnings were not nearly as effective as scaffolded do-it-this-way-to-be-on-track TODO lists. Some people still failed spectacularly, but my conscience was clear.
I was watching video interviews for prospective new hires last week.
One applicant explained how he would run his class backwards. He then explained that this would be done by...
1. Not writing a syllabus until after the class had already met
2. During the first week or two of class, the students would co-create a custom curricular plan for what they wanted to get out of the class
3. Whatever the students and professor had agreed on would go into a custom-made, late syllabus
4. Repeat same process for all major exams.
Needless to say, it was obvious that this applicant had never taught at a U.S. college before, unless maybe at Weird Niche University.
Aster, what you are describing is one of the latest fads! The CHE had an article a few weeks back about people who take 3-4 WEEKS working with students to design the syllabus. The article claimed it really gave students "ownership" of the course. I've never seen so far back in my head as when I read that one.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 17, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
Aster, what you are describing is one of the latest fads! The CHE had an article a few weeks back about people who take 3-4 WEEKS working with students to design the syllabus. The article claimed it really gave students "ownership" of the course. I've never seen so far back in my head as when I read that one.
As a graduate student, I took a couple of logic and mathematics classes designed this way, and it worked OK. The instructor came up with a giant ur-syllabus, and we selected units and readings from that list. We had it all done by the second week.
Like I said, it was OK. No better or worse thany any other course. But what works out OK for graduate students might not work out so well for
undergraduates.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 17, 2020, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 17, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
Aster, what you are describing is one of the latest fads! The CHE had an article a few weeks back about people who take 3-4 WEEKS working with students to design the syllabus. The article claimed it really gave students "ownership" of the course. I've never seen so far back in my head as when I read that one.
As a graduate student, I took a couple of logic and mathematics classes designed this way, and it worked OK. The instructor came up with a giant ur-syllabus, and we selected units and readings from that list. We had it all done by the second week.
Like I said, it was OK. No better or worse thany any other course. But what works out OK for graduate students might not work out so well for undergraduates.
Yes, a graduate elective can work like that. Even an undergraduate elective could work under specific circumstances.
However, I wouldn't try it as a regular practice at a non-elite institution where faculty are hired as experts in the field who know what students generally need in the order they likely need it.
Under no circumstances should constructing the syllabus together take more than a week of class time. A wiki for a joint document is a good way to get a document in a timely manner.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 17, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
Aster, what you are describing is one of the latest fads! The CHE had an article a few weeks back about people who take 3-4 WEEKS working with students to design the syllabus. The article claimed it really gave students "ownership" of the course. I've never seen so far back in my head as when I read that one.
I would have been really irritated in any one of my programs had the instructor wasted that much time creating a syllabus with us. Just tell us what you want us to do and get on with the content of the course.
FFS.
I'm on the quarter system - 11 week terms or so. I can't decide if the idea of spending three WEEKS agreeing on a syllabus makes me laugh hysterically or go purple with anger. Probably depends on how important the course is to future studies.
Stu Dent: "I wanted to let you know that I won't be able to take the exam today."
So she didn't give a reason, and didn't even ask for a makeup exam opportunity (per policy).
I will lay down actual money that this is a snowflake who is ditching college to take a very early Spring Break.
I smell an F in the air.
Dear students,
When the test prompt tells you that Steve contracted cholera, do NOT answer the question with a long explanation of how NO, he did not contact cholera but really got norovirus instead. Believe what you are told in the test prompt, please!
For the first time ever, in many many years of giving tests, I had a student who answered the multiple choice test on the Scantron by giving 2 answers to a lot of the question. The student is from a distant land, so maybe there is some cultural difference, but I have never had any other students from that person's country ever do that before.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2020, 08:25:25 AM
For the first time ever, in many many years of giving tests, I had a student who answered the multiple choice test on the Scantron by giving 2 answers to a lot of the question. The student is from a distant land, so maybe there is some cultural difference, but I have never had any other students from that person's country ever do that before.
I see it fairly often. You just have to decide ahead of time how to grade it.
Both choices incorrect = incorrect (totally easy)
One choice correct + one incorrect = what? I have colleagues that say it's incorrect because otherwise a student could just bubble in all choices and get 100% and/or incorrect for not following directions. Others will say it's correct since they did find the correct answer. Your choice.
Personally, I'd look at the Scantron to see if maybe they had tried to erase one choice and just didn't do a great job with the eraser.
I don't have time to inspect all the answers. That's why I use a Scantron.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2020, 09:46:41 AM
I don't have time to inspect all the answers. That's why I use a Scantron.
I do too. I set it up to pause for "multiple marks".
I think we all see something "that we've never seen before" at some point in our careers.
I had someone last year who marked an entire exam in pen.
Once I had someone who only completed 47 out of 50 questions because she "didn't know that there were extra questions on the back side".
Somebody in the ROTC fully illustrated the margins of a scantron with every single military tradition at our college.
I'm sure I've had people mark multiple answer responses on a scantron before, but it's been so long that I can't remember. I'll probably have it happen next week now.
I've seen a LOT of weird things on scantrons:
the typical - no name or no student ID or no exam version (grrr!)
completed in pen (why?)
no last name, no student ID, but put on their cell number (should I text you?)
skipped questions (meh)
skipped entire pages (oops)
multiple answers selected (really?)
form is so mangled it won't scan (how? did you chew on it?)
marked the WRONG test version (don't ask)
testing center uses the wrong exam form even though we gave them a huge stack of the correct ones (sigh)
cheated off a friend with the other test version, got upset about their low grade, and earned an F for academic dishonesty . . . (WTF)
The multiple answers to the scantron doesn't seem that weird to me since I can think of many online venues in which "select all that apply" is standard practice.
I also used to give "mark all that apply" questions in classes small enough that I was marking all the exams by hand any way for the problems and short answers. In that case, I used a grading scheme of "each choice has to be in the correct state". For example, if the question was worth 5 points, one for each letter, and the correct answers were A and C, then marking A, C, and D is 4 points (A, B, C, and E are in the right states, but D is not).
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 27, 2020, 11:25:54 AM
I've seen a LOT of weird things on scantrons:
the typical - no name or no student ID or no exam version (grrr!)
completed in pen (why?)
no last name, no student ID, but put on their cell number (should I text you?)
skipped questions (meh)
skipped entire pages (oops)
multiple answers selected (really?)
form is so mangled it won't scan (how? did you chew on it?)
marked the WRONG test version (don't ask)
testing center uses the wrong exam form even though we gave them a huge stack of the correct ones (sigh)
cheated off a friend with the other test version, got upset about their low grade, and earned an F for academic dishonesty . . . (WTF)
Sigh. I've done all I can to make things as fool-proof as possible (but that means less than 100% so, alas). I pre-number the "Scantrons" in pencil in the appropriate field (we use something generic), and since I also put this number on the accompanying blue book AND since I quick-eyescan each "Scantron" when submitted for missing (occasional) answers and duplicates (never for some years), and since they have two places to put their name--"Scantron" and blue book, both co-numbered, I have not lost track in a long time. Yes, yes, work for me, but work then saves gnashing later.
I allow one redo of an assignment in the quarter (grad school). They have to do it within a certain time frame after receiving initial feedback and the final grade for that assignment is the average of the two grades (so you can't completely phone it in on the first go-round and then end up with a really good score on the redo). One student who took me up on this had received a 50% on an assignment because she didn't do a big portion of it (the assignment had 3 sections, and she didn't do the smallest section and didn't do a stellar job on the others). She redid the assignment... and didn't do the missing part again. Really?
Dear students,
There are seats open in this class. Yes I know you don't want to take lab that late. I don't want to offer labs that late either. But I DO NOT have the ability to increase the class sizes in the lab rooms. The fire marshal says 24 students total. Period. Your options are to register for an evening lab, take your chances on the waitlists for the earlier labs (VERY unlikely to get in), or take the class another term. I cannot "just squeeze you in" or "find you a seat". Stop asking.
Dr. Geneticist
Middle of the semester, and a totally apathetic student chooses to fill out his scantron in bright blue pen.
Buddy, all that does is waste 5 minutes of my time, and turn your F into a slightly bigger F.
The complaining students have been coming out of the woodwork this past week or so.
Trust me, kiddies, I would NOT have said "this paper contains extensive de facto plagiarism" if (1) it didn't, (2) I hadn't pointed out the same damned problems on your previous paper with a stern warning that "repeating such mistakes will warrant a zero for plagiarism on future work," (3) the academic integrity/plagiarism weren't printed in the syllabus in boldface, italics, and underlined, and (4) we hadn't spent the past 7 weeks beating plagiarism avoidance and MLA documentation skills into the ground.
I have it down to something of a science by now; I can just copy and paste the email text, with a few minor personalizations, to respond to students. And my chair has my back, and that of other colleagues seeing the same kind of grief.
Then again, it's not as bad as the student who came in with Mom and Dad (both lawyers, as they repeatedly told me--is that supposed to scare me?) in tow a few weeks ago. Student gave consent to waive FERPA, and Mom lost her shit on me for pointing out extremely egregious plagiarism (again, after extensive avoidance training in this 8-week section). Dad tried to calm Mom down, but then Mom started shrieking, yelling, and calling me a wide variety of particularly vulgar names. When I'd had enough and said, "This conversation is over until someone can speak to me with respect," Mom took a swing at me--thank whatever that Dad stopped her, because I came very close to backhanding her. (It was clear in the course of the conversation that Daughter hadn't disclosed the paper or my extensive comments on it, or any of the other relevant lessons/documentation, to Mom and Dad before they all showed up looking for my head on a platter). I was really calm until I realized how close I'd been to decking the mom.
And they say nothing exciting ever happens around here. Sigh. I could do with some dullness and boredom right about now.
In their minds you're that mean ol' second-grade teacher who sicced the bully on them in the playground 39 years ago.....
They're just now getting their own back...
M.
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 10, 2020, 08:30:37 AM
The complaining students have been coming out of the woodwork this past week or so.
Trust me, kiddies, I would NOT have said "this paper contains extensive de facto plagiarism" if (1) it didn't, (2) I hadn't pointed out the same damned problems on your previous paper with a stern warning that "repeating such mistakes will warrant a zero for plagiarism on future work," (3) the academic integrity/plagiarism weren't printed in the syllabus in boldface, italics, and underlined, and (4) we hadn't spent the past 7 weeks beating plagiarism avoidance and MLA documentation skills into the ground.
I have it down to something of a science by now; I can just copy and paste the email text, with a few minor personalizations, to respond to students. And my chair has my back, and that of other colleagues seeing the same kind of grief.
Then again, it's not as bad as the student who came in with Mom and Dad (both lawyers, as they repeatedly told me--is that supposed to scare me?) in tow a few weeks ago. Student gave consent to waive FERPA, and Mom lost her shit on me for pointing out extremely egregious plagiarism (again, after extensive avoidance training in this 8-week section). Dad tried to calm Mom down, but then Mom started shrieking, yelling, and calling me a wide variety of particularly vulgar names. When I'd had enough and said, "This conversation is over until someone can speak to me with respect," Mom took a swing at me--thank whatever that Dad stopped her, because I came very close to backhanding her. (It was clear in the course of the conversation that Daughter hadn't disclosed the paper or my extensive comments on it, or any of the other relevant lessons/documentation, to Mom and Dad before they all showed up looking for my head on a platter). I was really calm until I realized how close I'd been to decking the mom.
And they say nothing exciting ever happens around here. Sigh. I could do with some dullness and boredom right about now.
Wow! That is actually scary. Did you call security?
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 10, 2020, 08:30:37 AM
The complaining students have been coming out of the woodwork this past week or so.
Trust me, kiddies, I would NOT have said "this paper contains extensive de facto plagiarism" if (1) it didn't, (2) I hadn't pointed out the same damned problems on your previous paper with a stern warning that "repeating such mistakes will warrant a zero for plagiarism on future work," (3) the academic integrity/plagiarism weren't printed in the syllabus in boldface, italics, and underlined, and (4) we hadn't spent the past 7 weeks beating plagiarism avoidance and MLA documentation skills into the ground.
I have it down to something of a science by now; I can just copy and paste the email text, with a few minor personalizations, to respond to students. And my chair has my back, and that of other colleagues seeing the same kind of grief.
Then again, it's not as bad as the student who came in with Mom and Dad (both lawyers, as they repeatedly told me--is that supposed to scare me?) in tow a few weeks ago. Student gave consent to waive FERPA, and Mom lost her shit on me for pointing out extremely egregious plagiarism (again, after extensive avoidance training in this 8-week section). Dad tried to calm Mom down, but then Mom started shrieking, yelling, and calling me a wide variety of particularly vulgar names. When I'd had enough and said, "This conversation is over until someone can speak to me with respect," Mom took a swing at me--thank whatever that Dad stopped her, because I came very close to backhanding her. (It was clear in the course of the conversation that Daughter hadn't disclosed the paper or my extensive comments on it, or any of the other relevant lessons/documentation, to Mom and Dad before they all showed up looking for my head on a platter). I was really calm until I realized how close I'd been to decking the mom.
And they say nothing exciting ever happens around here. Sigh. I could do with some dullness and boredom right about now.
Holy crap. I hope you did some kind of incident report. That mom needs to be banned from campus.
Although your student should still get an F for plagiarism, I feel bad for Stu. Can you imagine what it's like to be this person's child?
God, I'm so pissed right now!!!!! Somebody either talk me through it or at least bash me in the head with a baseball bat!
(Full disclosure: I posted this on reddit as well, thinking it would be therapeutic. It's not working!!!! I'll post here to see if I can get a richer data set.)
tl;dr - Class A grade grubber decides to take it up a notch and appeal his grade with no grounds. Appeals committee sides with student without even talking to me. I'm pissed as hell and worried that this is a black mark on my record. What happens now?
------
Mostly, I suppose this is just a vent, but perhaps also a request to talk me down as well as a request for some of your own experiences.
Last semester (which ended OVER THREE MONTHS AGO), I had a student in my class of 150 (which I have taught for 15 years now) who was a special kind of grade grubber. This person always had some reason why his grade should be higher, and it never had anything to do with the class. He signed up late, some stuff about his feelings, vague notions of fairness, etc...... I reconsidered EVERY one of his quizzes, exams, assignments, etc. I gave him a HUGE benefit of the doubt on everything because I'm a big softie (an attitude which I resolve to change today). I bent over backwards to give this student as much consideration as possible.
As it turns out, he did quite well in my class, finishing in the middle of the B range. His incessant grubbing brought that up from a borderline B-/B. Apparently that wasn't enough. He wanted an A, so he filed a grade appeal with the university ombudsman - three weeks past when the grade appeals are due. After two months of dealing with this and DAYS of work lost, the ombuds sided with the student and actually raised his grade EVEN MORE. The appeal committee was supposed to call me to get my side of the story, and they didn't. They just listened to the student, who probably gave the same incoherent ramblings he gave me. I never even had a chance to speak to the committee.
I got an email today stating the committe decided that the student's grade was "arbitrarily determined." (Damn right it was! He should have had a LOWER grade!) The student's grade was raised EVEN MORE. When I asked about the rationale for that decision, I got no reply. After all of this:
- I feel professionally insulted more than I've ever been in my life. Like you all, I AGONIZE over the grades I assign. These are not things I take lightly, but this guy wasn't even borderline.
- I'm livid. I can feel my blood pressure in my head, and I can taste blood in my mouth.
- I find myself really hoping this student asks me for a reference letter, so I can write one.
- I want to email the rest of the class to let them know that if they don't like their grade for whatever reason, they should appeal it. At least that would be fair.
- I might as well just turn in ALL of my grading to the appeals committee, because apparently they know more about my field than I do.
- I want to know who was on the grade appeals committee. I want their addresses.
- I have a reputation for being a nice teacher. Those days are now over. From now on, I'm going to be the biggest hard-ass SOB at the university.
- There's no booze left in the house.....
- I want the student to pay for the time he cost me. I want my lost time back!
- I don't want to work at this university anymore. (The last straw was about 200 straws ago.....)
Can I ask you all:
Is this a black mark on my record?
- Should I let this go?
- Should I talk to my chair?
- I really want to email my whole class and give them the same opportunity that this little weasel got. It sounds like it might be a bad idea, but that's the only fair and ethical thing I can think of. What's your opinion?
- Somebody talk me down, man! Talk me down!
- What is your experience with this sort of thing?
I'm done ranting, and I do NOT feel better.
Stay healthy everyone!
Quote from: Clark_Kent on March 26, 2020, 01:44:56 PM
God, I'm so pissed right now!!!!! Somebody either talk me through it or at least bash me in the head with a baseball bat!
(Full disclosure: I posted this on reddit as well, thinking it would be therapeutic. It's not working!!!! I'll post here to see if I can get a richer data set.)
tl;dr - Class A grade grubber decides to take it up a notch and appeal his grade with no grounds. Appeals committee sides with student without even talking to me. I'm pissed as hell and worried that this is a black mark on my record. What happens now?
------
Mostly, I suppose this is just a vent, but perhaps also a request to talk me down as well as a request for some of your own experiences.
Last semester (which ended OVER THREE MONTHS AGO), I had a student in my class of 150 (which I have taught for 15 years now) who was a special kind of grade grubber. This person always had some reason why his grade should be higher, and it never had anything to do with the class. He signed up late, some stuff about his feelings, vague notions of fairness, etc...... I reconsidered EVERY one of his quizzes, exams, assignments, etc. I gave him a HUGE benefit of the doubt on everything because I'm a big softie (an attitude which I resolve to change today). I bent over backwards to give this student as much consideration as possible.
As it turns out, he did quite well in my class, finishing in the middle of the B range. His incessant grubbing brought that up from a borderline B-/B. Apparently that wasn't enough. He wanted an A, so he filed a grade appeal with the university ombudsman - three weeks past when the grade appeals are due. After two months of dealing with this and DAYS of work lost, the ombuds sided with the student and actually raised his grade EVEN MORE. The appeal committee was supposed to call me to get my side of the story, and they didn't. They just listened to the student, who probably gave the same incoherent ramblings he gave me. I never even had a chance to speak to the committee.
I got an email today stating the committe decided that the student's grade was "arbitrarily determined." (Damn right it was! He should have had a LOWER grade!) The student's grade was raised EVEN MORE. When I asked about the rationale for that decision, I got no reply. After all of this:
- I feel professionally insulted more than I've ever been in my life. Like you all, I AGONIZE over the grades I assign. These are not things I take lightly, but this guy wasn't even borderline.
- I'm livid. I can feel my blood pressure in my head, and I can taste blood in my mouth.
- I find myself really hoping this student asks me for a reference letter, so I can write one.
- I want to email the rest of the class to let them know that if they don't like their grade for whatever reason, they should appeal it. At least that would be fair.
- I might as well just turn in ALL of my grading to the appeals committee, because apparently they know more about my field than I do.
- I want to know who was on the grade appeals committee. I want their addresses.
- I have a reputation for being a nice teacher. Those days are now over. From now on, I'm going to be the biggest hard-ass SOB at the university.
- There's no booze left in the house.....
- I want the student to pay for the time he cost me. I want my lost time back!
- I don't want to work at this university anymore. (The last straw was about 200 straws ago.....)
Can I ask you all:
Is this a black mark on my record?
- Should I let this go?
- Should I talk to my chair?
- I really want to email my whole class and give them the same opportunity that this little weasel got. It sounds like it might be a bad idea, but that's the only fair and ethical thing I can think of. What's your opinion?
- Somebody talk me down, man! Talk me down!
- What is your experience with this sort of thing?
I'm done ranting, and I do NOT feel better.
Stay healthy everyone!
Can you bring this up with your Faculty Senate or Faculty Union? I'm seeing issues of academic freedom.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 26, 2020, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: Clark_Kent on March 26, 2020, 01:44:56 PM
God, I'm so pissed right now!!!!! Somebody either talk me through it or at least bash me in the head with a baseball bat!
(Full disclosure: I posted this on reddit as well, thinking it would be therapeutic. It's not working!!!! I'll post here to see if I can get a richer data set.)
tl;dr - Class A grade grubber decides to take it up a notch and appeal his grade with no grounds. Appeals committee sides with student without even talking to me. I'm pissed as hell and worried that this is a black mark on my record. What happens now?
------
Mostly, I suppose this is just a vent, but perhaps also a request to talk me down as well as a request for some of your own experiences.
Last semester (which ended OVER THREE MONTHS AGO), I had a student in my class of 150 (which I have taught for 15 years now) who was a special kind of grade grubber. This person always had some reason why his grade should be higher, and it never had anything to do with the class. He signed up late, some stuff about his feelings, vague notions of fairness, etc...... I reconsidered EVERY one of his quizzes, exams, assignments, etc. I gave him a HUGE benefit of the doubt on everything because I'm a big softie (an attitude which I resolve to change today). I bent over backwards to give this student as much consideration as possible.
As it turns out, he did quite well in my class, finishing in the middle of the B range. His incessant grubbing brought that up from a borderline B-/B. Apparently that wasn't enough. He wanted an A, so he filed a grade appeal with the university ombudsman - three weeks past when the grade appeals are due. After two months of dealing with this and DAYS of work lost, the ombuds sided with the student and actually raised his grade EVEN MORE. The appeal committee was supposed to call me to get my side of the story, and they didn't. They just listened to the student, who probably gave the same incoherent ramblings he gave me. I never even had a chance to speak to the committee.
I got an email today stating the committe decided that the student's grade was "arbitrarily determined." (Damn right it was! He should have had a LOWER grade!) The student's grade was raised EVEN MORE. When I asked about the rationale for that decision, I got no reply. After all of this:
- I feel professionally insulted more than I've ever been in my life. Like you all, I AGONIZE over the grades I assign. These are not things I take lightly, but this guy wasn't even borderline.
- I'm livid. I can feel my blood pressure in my head, and I can taste blood in my mouth.
- I find myself really hoping this student asks me for a reference letter, so I can write one.
- I want to email the rest of the class to let them know that if they don't like their grade for whatever reason, they should appeal it. At least that would be fair.
- I might as well just turn in ALL of my grading to the appeals committee, because apparently they know more about my field than I do.
- I want to know who was on the grade appeals committee. I want their addresses.
- I have a reputation for being a nice teacher. Those days are now over. From now on, I'm going to be the biggest hard-ass SOB at the university.
- There's no booze left in the house.....
- I want the student to pay for the time he cost me. I want my lost time back!
- I don't want to work at this university anymore. (The last straw was about 200 straws ago.....)
Can I ask you all:
Is this a black mark on my record?
- Should I let this go?
- Should I talk to my chair?
- I really want to email my whole class and give them the same opportunity that this little weasel got. It sounds like it might be a bad idea, but that's the only fair and ethical thing I can think of. What's your opinion?
- Somebody talk me down, man! Talk me down!
- What is your experience with this sort of thing?
I'm done ranting, and I do NOT feel better.
Stay healthy everyone!
Can you bring this up with your Faculty Senate or Faculty Union? I'm seeing issues of academic freedom.
I'm seeing issues of not following established policy for grade appeals. The Ombusperson does not have the authority to personally change grades (at least not where I work).
But, take a step back.
Has giving this one student an A when they barely earned a B opened any doors for them that should have stayed closed? No
Do you really want to spend any more time/energy/brainspace on what has already been a long, miserable experience? Probably not.
I'd say you should be upset, feel the heck out of your feelings, and walk away.
Have you brought this up with your chair or dean? At the very least, it seems like the policy for investigating the appeal has not been followed.
And, work out a fair, consistent policy for considering regrade requests. I tell my students I'll consider it, but they have to make their request in writing, and they have to provide me with evidence to support their claim. (In my field, this could be from my textbook, lecture notes, or a reputable online source. In a humanities field, perhaps this could be evidence from their paper or something like that?)
A standard stratagem is to receive the appeal in writing, with objections to the grade being specific, and then to state that the whole exam would be regraded. Worked wonders!
Quote from: Clark_Kent on March 26, 2020, 01:44:56 PM
- I want to email the rest of the class to let them know that if they don't like their grade for whatever reason, they should appeal it. At least that would be fair.
- I have a reputation for being a nice teacher. Those days are now over. From now on, I'm going to be the biggest hard-ass SOB at the university.
Don't let all kinds of other students pay the price for the actions of one jerk and several clueless decision-makers. They dont deserve it, and most of them probably would have sided with you anyway.
Remember the main reason to do this job is for the people who actually care enough to take it seriously. The boneheads are more obvious, but they're
not the majority. (At least in my experience.)
It's possible that the student is a child of a major donor.
Quote from: spork on March 27, 2020, 10:07:09 AM
It's possible that the student is a child of a major donor.
I would imagine that that major donor would be horrified to learn their progeny was behaving this way. Not everyone grew up in the Trump household.
Appreciate the advice everyone! The whole situation is getting more sordid as I investigate further. While the appeals committee refuses to share their reason behind the decision, I did find out that they changed the original accusation against me without telling me. In short, they made an entirely new appeals case on the fly. It's as though they were searching for an excuse to raise this kid's grade.
I never thought about the parents being major donors scenario. I'm a bit sorry I started thinking about it, because - being the typical academic - I got curious and started researching. While I don't know if this kid's parents are donors, it turns out he's quite well off. This pisses me off further because midway through the semester, he didn't turn in a homework assignment. His excuse was that he couldn't afford the online homework subscription. Indeed it is steep, but his online presence indicates he could have afforded it (think Rich Kids of Instagram). Being the big wuss that I am, I managed to get him one myself. I want my money back..... This kid played me good! I can only assume that he lied to the appeals committee as well.
This planet needs a good, solid asteroid strike.
The kryptonite he dangled before your eyes made you do it.
;--}
M.
Quote from: Clark_Kent on March 27, 2020, 02:17:55 PM
Appreciate the advice everyone! The whole situation is getting more sordid as I investigate further. While the appeals committee refuses to share their reason behind the decision, I did find out that they changed the original accusation against me without telling me. In short, they made an entirely new appeals case on the fly. It's as though they were searching for an excuse to raise this kid's grade.
I never thought about the parents being major donors scenario. I'm a bit sorry I started thinking about it, because - being the typical academic - I got curious and started researching. While I don't know if this kid's parents are donors, it turns out he's quite well off. This pisses me off further because midway through the semester, he didn't turn in a homework assignment. His excuse was that he couldn't afford the online homework subscription. Indeed it is steep, but his online presence indicates he could have afforded it (think Rich Kids of Instagram). Being the big wuss that I am, I managed to get him one myself. I want my money back..... This kid played me good! I can only assume that he lied to the appeals committee as well.
This planet needs a good, solid asteroid strike.
Are you tenured? If so, is there a grievance process for filing a complaint about policy not being followed?
Yeah, tenured and full. I'm tenured enough to just send all my grading next year to the grade appeals committee and tell them to assign whatever grade they like and see how that goes over. It's only 750 exams.......
For a second-year class...
The essay prompts and instructions I gave you exist for a reason. Just. Follow. The. Instructions. ARGH!
Digital Native my %$.
I have held 8 advising meetings so far. Students were emails a link to sign up, a link to download the fillable PDF form for registration, and an attached version of the form. So far 2 of the 8 have managed to fill out the form and send it to me (4 sent back blank forms, 2 could't "find" the forms"). And one student just emailed me that she went to the Zoom website but I wasn't there (I am not using Zoom for these meetings).
The tech idiocy continues. Send me the filled form as an attachment does NOT mean:
Send me a google link
Send me a screenshot of your screen
Send me a picture of your screen
Send me a scan of the printed out form
Send me a picture of a handwritten form
Email me a list of courses you want
Again: 1) Save the form. 2) Fill out the form. 3) Save it with the name I sent in the email. 4) Email me that saved form.
On the plus side, online advising means no form = no emailed link. I don't allow advisees to meet without the form. Harder to do in an office setting (they just show ip)
I am many things, but I am not psychic! I do not get notified when/if students appear or disappear on my class waitlists. If you decide to try and register for a class on the FRIDAY of week 2 of the quarter, DO NOT act shocked that you have missed class materials. Welcome to college!
Quote from: FishProf on April 09, 2020, 06:50:35 AM
Again: 1) Save the form. 2) Fill out the form. 3) Save it with the name I sent in the email. 4) Email me that saved form.
I remember one spectacular end-of-semester when I was in charge of collecting information from faculty and nearly everyone failed on these four steps. I ended up visiting nearly every office to sit with them to ensure the form (an Excel table in that case) was returned to me in a format I could use. The next term, I started early with "Shall we make an appointment to fill out the table together again or will you get it to me by <date>?" Amazing how many people didn't need me to sit with them a second time, although a couple people did request it because they so seldom used Excel or indeed tables at all.
For several terms, I was the point of contact to collect all the senior capstone papers to be used for assessment. It was very illuminating information on how many average times I bounced back the submission with "please follow the file naming convention: lastName_firstName_term" along with how many people ended up not sending it to me at all until the registrar refused to accept their graduation form because they didn't yet meet all the graduation requirements.
The names of people who got it right on the first go tended to correlate well with the people who showed up on the career services first destination survey as having a college-degree-required job or other good first destination after college.
Whenever I ask students to send me a published paper (e.g., a source they've found for a class project), a lot of them send me a link to the journal's website instead of attaching a pdf. Okay, I get that the link works when we're on campus, and they probably live on campus, so it probably doesn't occur to them that the link won't work for me at my house. However, campus is shut down now! Nobody is accessing any of these papers without going through our library's website. Why are they still sending me links to papers?
While I'm complaining, what's up with students not knowing how to "reply all"? I e-mailed a group of students about their group project since they wanted to set up a meeting. I asked what times the whole group is available. One student replied (not copying the others) and set up a meeting with me. I assumed she was speaking for their group. No, the next day the others were upset because they didn't know the meeting had been scheduled and then weren't available at the time the first student had picked.
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 20, 2020, 01:45:27 PM
Whenever I ask students to send me a published paper (e.g., a source they've found for a class project), a lot of them send me a link to the journal's website instead of attaching a pdf. Okay, I get that the link works when we're on campus, and they probably live on campus, so it probably doesn't occur to them that the link won't work for me at my house. However, campus is shut down now! Nobody is accessing any of these papers without going through our library's website. Why are they still sending me links to papers?
While I'm complaining, what's up with students not knowing how to "reply all"? I e-mailed a group of students about their group project since they wanted to set up a meeting. I asked what times the whole group is available. One student replied (not copying the others) and set up a meeting with me. I assumed she was speaking for their group. No, the next day the others were upset because they didn't know the meeting had been scheduled and then weren't available at the time the first student had picked.
You mean "digital natives" aren't all tech savvy???? Not possible!!!!
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 20, 2020, 01:45:27 PM
[. . .]
Why are they still sending me links to papers?
[. . . ]
This might sound facetious, but it's not meant to be. They are sending links because they can. You can solve the problem by attaching a grade to their performance of this task. Not a pdf? Zero.
Spork is right, mostly. I have that policy. It helps. But it is not foolproof.
Quote from: spork on April 20, 2020, 02:31:31 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on April 20, 2020, 01:45:27 PM
[. . .]
Why are they still sending me links to papers?
[. . . ]
This might sound facetious, but it's not meant to be. They are sending links because they can. You can solve the problem by attaching a grade to their performance of this task. Not a pdf? Zero.
It's not graded, though. These are heavily scaffolded projects, and I'm trying to help them in the ways that I normally would through office hours. I guess I could just refuse to help. I hate to do that, though. Working on projects with them is the fun part of teaching.
TAing a gen ed course linking the arts/aesthetics to psychology and neuroscience. Most of the students are Freshman performing arts majors. At the end of term, they need to have completed a term paper on a topic of their own choosing (essentially a literature review; they need to look up articles from academic journals and give an overview on the scientific research related to their topic).
Recently I've been trying to gauge how much guidance the students in my discussion sections are going to need during the writing process. When I asked if any of them had written a research paper before (i.e. a paper in which they had to organize and summarize information from multiple sources) only 1 out of 25 said they had (in high school). Everyone else looked bewildered.
For context, this is at a highly-ranked, selective public university, supposedly one of the best in state. Entering students should have had relatively rigorous college prep during high school.
Is it not typical for students to write term papers in high school? I recall having to write at least one every year for English classes.
I'm a bit surprised they didn't have to write a research paper in Fall or Winter term courses.
How much is reasonable to expect from a Freshman? I don't want them to feel completely adrift, but I also didn't expect to potentially have to hold their hands through every step (in addition to helping them understand the actual course material). We've added scaffolding milestones at my suggestion so we can offer them guidance as they write, the professor sent a link to the university writing center to all the students, I've demonstrated how to use online databases for their literature search, but many students still seem daunted and a bit clueless.
How much should I help with the basics of how to write a term paper, and how much should the students be responsible for utilizing the writing center and other student resources for this?
This will mostly depend on the academic selectivity of your institution. R1 students on average are much better academically prepared average R2 students, R2 students are on average much better academically prepared than students at open enrollment institutions, etc...
If you're at an open enrollment institution, Don't expect anything from 1st semester freshmen, other than the most basic literacy and math skills.
Whereas it would be unusual to find a freshman at an R1 institutions who did not have at least some practice writing essays, report, and term papers.
When in doubt, ask your PI or department head about local institutional norms.
Hi Smallcleanrat, It's worthwhile considering that different disciplines go about writing papers differently. If these are performing arts students, they may be a lot more comfortable writing "an essay" than a "term paper" that summarizes different articles like a literature review. There are a number of online resources to help undergraduates write a literature review like https://advice.writing.utoronto.ca/types-of-writing/literature-review/ (https://advice.writing.utoronto.ca/types-of-writing/literature-review/)
/https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/literature-reviews/ (https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/literature-reviews/)
Maybe you could direct your students to them.
Quote from: Aster on April 21, 2020, 08:37:52 AM
This will mostly depend on the academic selectivity of your institution. R1 students on average are much better academically prepared average R2 students, R2 students are on average much better academically prepared than students at open enrollment institutions, etc...
If you're at an open enrollment institution, Don't expect anything from 1st semester freshmen, other than the most basic literacy and math skills.
Whereas it would be unusual to find a freshman at an R1 institutions who did not have at least some practice writing essays, report, and term papers.
When in doubt, ask your PI or department head about local institutional norms.
We are an R1.
The professor is leaving a lot of judgments like this up to the discretion of the TAs to be based on our experiences with the students during discussion sections.
I'm not sure how best to respond when students email me questions like "Can you help me come up with a topic?" without giving me any info about what they've come up with so far from their own brainstorming and readings. Sometimes they have a broad topic but will ask something like "But it's a big topic. What should I put in the actual paper?"
I've been directing them to type key terms regarding their topic of interest into the databases of scholarly journals (to which I already devoted a significant portion of a discussion session explaining) and to read through review papers and the titles/abstracts of research articles to get a sense of what kind of questions are active areas of inquiry, come up with a list of some of these more specific questions that they find interesting, and then come back to me if they want more help focusing their ideas. So far I haven't heard back from any of these students.
Quote from: Morden on April 21, 2020, 08:47:23 AM
Hi Smallcleanrat, It's worthwhile considering that different disciplines go about writing papers differently. If these are performing arts students, they may be a lot more comfortable writing "an essay" than a "term paper" that summarizes different articles like a literature review. There are a number of online resources to help undergraduates write a literature review like https://advice.writing.utoronto.ca/types-of-writing/literature-review/ (https://advice.writing.utoronto.ca/types-of-writing/literature-review/)
/https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/literature-reviews/ (https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/literature-reviews/)
Maybe you could direct your students to them.
Fair point, Morden. But I would have thought in the arts there are still times in which the students would have to do some reading from multiple sources and synthesize? I'm thinking analysis of the works of specific artists or styles, topics in history of the arts, etc... would have involved this kind of writing? Or are the educational experiences of performing arts majors quite different from, say, someone pursuing art history or literary criticism?
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 21, 2020, 08:28:30 AM
TAing a gen ed course linking the arts/aesthetics to psychology and neuroscience. Most of the students are Freshman performing arts majors. At the end of term, they need to have completed a term paper on a topic of their own choosing (essentially a literature review; they need to look up articles from academic journals and give an overview on the scientific research related to their topic).
Recently I've been trying to gauge how much guidance the students in my discussion sections are going to need during the writing process. When I asked if any of them had written a research paper before (i.e. a paper in which they had to organize and summarize information from multiple sources) only 1 out of 25 said they had (in high school). Everyone else looked bewildered.
For context, this is at a highly-ranked, selective public university, supposedly one of the best in state. Entering students should have had relatively rigorous college prep during high school.
Is it not typical for students to write term papers in high school? I recall having to write at least one every year for English classes.
I'm a bit surprised they didn't have to write a research paper in Fall or Winter term courses.
How much is reasonable to expect from a Freshman? I don't want them to feel completely adrift, but I also didn't expect to potentially have to hold their hands through every step (in addition to helping them understand the actual course material). We've added scaffolding milestones at my suggestion so we can offer them guidance as they write, the professor sent a link to the university writing center to all the students, I've demonstrated how to use online databases for their literature search, but many students still seem daunted and a bit clueless.
How much should I help with the basics of how to write a term paper, and how much should the students be responsible for utilizing the writing center and other student resources for this?
In my experience even quite good undergrads need a LOT of scaffolding to do this type of scientific writing passably well. (We all did once, we've just forgotten). Even if they've done other sorts of papers, I can almost guarantee they never had to do a lit review of primary scientific literature in high school, and that is a very different type of writing (and reading).
None of this is really in your control since you are the TA (though if you can offer them some models and scaffolding that would be very appreciated I'm sure), but just for future use or anyone who might find it useful--
I've been teaching the same advanced seminar every spring for the past four years, with a lit review paper as the major assessment (30% of the final grade), and every one of the first three I added more scaffolding (and these are mainly upperclassman and generally very strong students).
I now have them do 5 scaffolding interactive lessons starting early in the semester, that take them through how to read a journal article, picking a topic, doing a lit search and making an outline, how to do synthesis, evaluation and connections to theory, and revising. They also turn in paragraph paper proposal, a detailed outline, and a self-evaluation of their draft (using the grading rubric-- this is my trick to get them to pay attention to the rubric and how they are currently falling short on it) throughout the semester. This has the added benefit of making sure no one waits to start their paper until the week before it is due, which would be disastrous.
I also give them example outlines and papers from previous students who did really well (with their permission of course), so they know what they are aiming for. We do individual paper conferences when they are at the drafting stage, and I often end up meeting with quite a few of the students individually at other times as well.
This is admittedly a fair amount of work for me, and a few students may be annoyed at these "hoops", but most seem relieved to have clear direction and structure, they learn more, and I get papers which are much less painful to read and sometimes downright delightful. Since a good chunk of these students will end up as someone's grad student, and publishing papers, I also consider it service to the field ;-)
In terms of where my responsibility ends and the writing center's begins, I think everything field-specific is my responsibility and anything that applies to any document in English is there's-- so if they have problems with syntax, sentence structure, punctuation, word use etc. (mostly but not exclusively international students) I suggest they go to the writing center. Our librarians are also very helpful with search strategies, especially the science librarian.
I don't think all students realize that with online classes I can easily tell if they have accessed an assignment. I know that most students are honest and with nearly 1000 of them in my classes there will be outliers, but it's still a bit of a surprise to me that students will just outright lie. I've had a few emails this week from students claiming that the course website wouldn't load or that the assignment wasn't available. Both of these are easy to check (and it's suspicious when only ONE student sends an email about an assignment not being available).
Their requests to do something to make up the points disappeared when I showed them their user logs showing they hadn't even logged in to the class on those days.
I know they are stressed, I know they might be in a bit of a panic over forgetting a deadline, but I'd prefer they were honest.
"Professor for the assignments where do we find the underwater basket-weaving examples."
Dear Student,
In the book we are reading for these last weeks of class, titled Underwater Basket-Waving: A book of examples.
Sigh. I get the stress and asking before thinking. It's just so disconcerting when they forget/avoid some of the core cultural practices of education - read the book and use the course materials for the assignments.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 22, 2020, 03:04:50 PM
I don't think all students realize that with online classes I can easily tell if they have accessed an assignment. I know that most students are honest and with nearly 1000 of them in my classes there will be outliers, but it's still a bit of a surprise to me that students will just outright lie. I've had a few emails this week from students claiming that the course website wouldn't load or that the assignment wasn't available. Both of these are easy to check (and it's suspicious when only ONE student sends an email about an assignment not being available).
Their requests to do something to make up the points disappeared when I showed them their user logs showing they hadn't even logged in to the class on those days.
I know they are stressed, I know they might be in a bit of a panic over forgetting a deadline, but I'd prefer they were honest.
After about 10 years of anecdotally tracking this across two different institutions, I can reasonable state that my percentage of "documented liars" ranges between 10-15%. It's on the higher end for the general education classes, and for classes that have lots of online homework. It's generally on the lower end for classes with less than 15 people, and majors-level courses where students have already completed at least one majors per-requisite course.
But then when most studies of college cheating and academic dishonesty report sky-high levels, I'm not surprised at all.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 22, 2020, 03:04:50 PM
I've had a few emails this week from students claiming that the course website wouldn't load or that the assignment wasn't available. Both of these are easy to check (and it's suspicious when only ONE student sends an email about an assignment not being available).
Unfortunately, it's much harder to check that an individual browser has cache or other issues so that items legitimately won't load. I've put in more than one phone call to IT for a website that I use all the time that has somehow become dysfunctional by being open too long in the computer that I only restart after power outages, an update that I couldn't control while it was open, or something else that means the website that worked last night is not working this morning.
I have nothing for you, though, if the assignment was open for a week and students didn't contact you immediately several days before the assignment was due with questions about not loading/not available.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 21, 2020, 12:28:22 PM
Fair point, Morden. But I would have thought in the arts there are still times in which the students would have to do some reading from multiple sources and synthesize? I'm thinking analysis of the works of specific artists or styles, topics in history of the arts, etc... would have involved this kind of writing? Or are the educational experiences of performing arts majors quite different from, say, someone pursuing art history or literary criticism?
Ask your counterparts who do the first-year writing courses at your institution what reasonable expectations are for students who successfully completed their courses.
I received far fewer college student complaints with learned helplessness regarding activities my small, rural middle school required* when I showed students the statement from the writing folks on what was taught in their classes and therefore what a successful pass should mean in terms of knowing about citation, avoiding plagiarism, and structuring different types of writing assignments. One particular regional comprehensive university started requiring writing samples from the local CC transfer students before awarding credit in the relevant courses because so few of those students were able to do what we expected from our native students.
While I have had to scaffold papers as Puget writes, I also know that the step-by-step, hard-to-fail-unless-the-student-does-literally-nothing scaffolding was only necessary for my science for teachers classes that had a lot of first-year students and the research methods class for graduating seniors in STEM. The research methods class was indeed teaching a very different way of thinking/reading than skimming some mass media articles to summarize the filtered-by-non-experts, generally-agreed-upon-state-of-the-field-applied-to-a-given-common-question. Trying to get students to dig in and question the reported results for every paper is much harder than summarizing articles that all say approximately the same thing or are very clear that X is still an open question with several likely hypotheses still under research.
* I remember having to write a literature research paper in 7th grade art class on Paul Klee and art was a required-for-all class, just like home ec, shop, and study skills. That was not the first paper I ever had to do and was far from the last paper before going to college.
A student e-mailed me wanting a copy of his graded midterm so he can study for the final. I was perplexed because I uploaded all the graded midterms to the CMS last week, so he should already have it. No, it turns out he wanted the first midterm, from pre-COVID, because he skipped class all the times I tried to hand it back and didn't bother to ask me about it until now.
Lucky for him, the exam happened to be in my binder so I scanned it. If it had been in my office, I wasn't going to campus just to retrieve it for him.
Yesterday, I did some work setting up the Moodle pages for my summer courses.
Today, I awoke to find that IT had deleted them entirely.
That's horrible!
Is there any chance they actually exist but you don't have access and they can get the back for you?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 30, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
Yesterday, I did some work setting up the Moodle pages for my summer courses.
Today, I awoke to find that IT had deleted them entirely.
I needed a place to say that the undergrad research student who I keep telling no really you've done enough this term you've passed we can't do the original plan no really you've done enough the disruptions have caused massive changes for the research and teaching/advising has to get done first, keeps asking to do a paper to earn passing credit. Which I've already said they have.
Quote from: teach_write_research on May 01, 2020, 04:24:01 PM
That's horrible!
Is there any chance they actually exist but you don't have access and they can get the back for you?
Nope, straight-up fully deleted. It wasn't a ton of work, and IT did manage to re-instate it from a backup server (with no explanation but with the implication that it was all my fault somehow). It's just completely inscrutable from this end, especially since there's no maintenance or anything scheduled until a week from now.
Quote from: teach_write_research on May 01, 2020, 04:24:01 PM
I needed a place to say that the undergrad research student who I keep telling no really you've done enough this term you've passed we can't do the original plan no really you've done enough the disruptions have caused massive changes for the research and teaching/advising has to get done first, keeps asking to do a paper to earn passing credit. Which I've already said they have.
Ugh. Enough already!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 30, 2020, 10:09:03 AM
Yesterday, I did some work setting up the Moodle pages for my summer courses.
Today, I awoke to find that IT had deleted them entirely.
That's horrendous. It's another sort of reason I try to have most of material up on my own Google drive as shared documents with links from the LMS.
My students are such bad cheaters.
Now, they shall fail.
Quote from: FishProf on May 09, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
My students are such bad cheaters.
Now, they shall fail.
But just recall that prisons are full of failed criminals. The successful ones go from strength to strength. Well, maybe after CV. Virus infects the just and the unjust alike.
I just had a student try to argue that the Quizlet cards I say she copied are ones she created!
Two years ago. When she was in high school.
A white belt in Google-Fu could catch these.
Student who had been doing quite well before pandemic/remote teaching transition, and even then submitted acceptable online discussion posts for the first couple of times. Ze went dark for a couple weeks, then submitted a series of assignments--three discussion posts and two essays--that had clearly been run through paraphrasing machines. I gave the assignments zeros and explained why, but refrained from submitting them to the usual academic dishonesty routine, because of the circumstances. I explained to student that while the circumstances might be stressful, plagiarism was still unacceptable. I found the sources for most of the material, but really didn't want deal with the rigamarole myself right now.
What response did I get from Stu Dent?
"I read your comments on my assignments, and I wanted to explain that because English is my second language, I often write assignments in [my language] and then run them through a translation generator."
Take the zero, young person. You do not want to pursue this.
Quote from: 0susanna on May 11, 2020, 11:16:11 AM
Student who had been doing quite well before pandemic/remote teaching transition, and even then submitted acceptable online discussion posts for the first couple of times. Ze went dark for a couple weeks, then submitted a series of assignments--three discussion posts and two essays--that had clearly been run through paraphrasing machines. I gave the assignments zeros and explained why, but refrained from submitting them to the usual academic dishonesty routine, because of the circumstances. I explained to student that while the circumstances might be stressful, plagiarism was still unacceptable. I found the sources for most of the material, but really didn't want deal with the rigamarole myself right now.
What response did I get from Stu Dent?
"I read your comments on my assignments, and I wanted to explain that because English is my second language, I often write assignments in [my language] and then run them through a translation generator."
Take the zero, young person. You do not want to pursue this.
I'd believe the student. It's pretty common for non-native speakers to write in their native language and run it through Google Translate or some other program. The clever ones will then clean it up a bit before submitting or ask a native speaker to proof-read.
Yes, the first time I ran into this with a student whose native language was Spanish.
I truly thought he was on drugs....total nonsequiturs about the artworks (of scenes in his own country) that I'd asked him to visit in the nearby museum.
Then I had a Russian ESL/citizenship exam tutoring client who tried to use one of the little handheld translators to do her work, while I was in the room.
I kept trying to show her how it gave her wrong answers, and made mush of her sentences.
Then I realized that was probably what the other student was doing.
Waste of their money and time....the result is a mess, AND you don't learn anything by letting the machine (try to) do the work for you.
But they were both convinced they couldn't survive without them.
M.
Everything is taking forever and it's nobody's fault but my own. Urrrrrgh!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 11, 2020, 04:20:07 PM
Everything is taking forever and it's nobody's fault but my own. Urrrrrgh!
+1
Quote from: sprout on May 11, 2020, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 11, 2020, 04:20:07 PM
Everything is taking forever and it's nobody's fault but my own. Urrrrrgh!
+1
Yup, cold have posted the same thing. Prep is taking longer and I definitely got through less material in the remote version of my 3 hour class. Though I don't have the official notification, this will likely be my last semester teaching for this university (and possibly ever, given current status of higher ed). I usually really like the classes I'm teaching this summer, and I did not want to go out like this, feeling like my teaching is barely approaching acceptable. It's the last
one more year in my moniker.
I'm sorry to hear that.
I hope you find your next path soon, and that it proves to be satisfying.
We learn perfection by moving in and out of it. (T'ao Ch'ien, I believe)
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 11, 2020, 06:36:02 PM
I'm sorry to hear that.
I hope you find your next path soon, and that it proves to be satisfying.
We learn perfection by moving in and out of it. (T'ao Ch'ien, I believe)
M.
Thanks mamselle. Sorry for the derail by going a little too despairy on this thread. I'm going to stick with the fun and games & cats threads for now.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 11, 2020, 11:31:29 AM
I'd believe the student. It's pretty common for non-native speakers to write in their native language and run it through Google Translate or some other program. The clever ones will then clean it up a bit before submitting or ask a native speaker to proof-read.
This is generally good/humane advice, but 0susanna noted...
Quote from: 0susannaI found the sources for most of the material
...which implies, alas, that it was not the student's own work being translated/paraphrased and the student is misrepresenting their efforts.
Quote from: namazu on May 12, 2020, 11:31:16 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 11, 2020, 11:31:29 AM
I'd believe the student. It's pretty common for non-native speakers to write in their native language and run it through Google Translate or some other program. The clever ones will then clean it up a bit before submitting or ask a native speaker to proof-read.
This is generally good/humane advice, but 0susanna noted...
Quote from: 0susannaI found the sources for most of the material
...which implies, alas, that it was not the student's own work being translated/paraphrased and the student is misrepresenting their efforts.
Ah, I missed that key detail. In that case, give them the 0 and send it to the honor board.
I don't know how they can so misunderstand. I posted this:
"In the gradebook , if you see:
1) a number, it has been graded.
2) a blank, It has been received, but not yet graded
3) a Zero. I don't have it. Email it.
ALSO - IF you choose to rewrite you rough draft to a Final paper, please submit via email."
So I get this email this morning:
"I submitted the portfolio today but I noticed that it also shows it as a zero on blackboard so I am also emailing it to you."
Did you think it would automatically update the Blackboard Gradebook the moment you sent me an email?
Quote from: FishProf on May 13, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I don't know how they can so misunderstand. I posted this:
"In the gradebook , if you see:
1) a number, it has been graded.
2) a blank, It has been received, but not yet graded
3) a Zero. I don't have it. Email it.
ALSO - IF you choose to rewrite you rough draft to a Final paper, please submit via email."
So I get this email this morning:
"I submitted the portfolio today but I noticed that it also shows it as a zero on blackboard so I am also emailing it to you."
Did you think it would automatically update the Blackboard Gradebook the moment you sent me an email?
To be fair, zero is a number... perhaps they did not get to option 3 before emailing you? <ducks and runs>
Quote from: FishProf on May 13, 2020, 07:25:54 AM
I don't know how they can so misunderstand. I posted this:
"In the gradebook , if you see:
1) a number, it has been graded.
2) a blank, It has been received, but not yet graded
3) a Zero. I don't have it. Email it.
ALSO - IF you choose to rewrite you rough draft to a Final paper, please submit via email."
So I get this email this morning:
"I submitted the portfolio today but I noticed that it also shows it as a zero on blackboard so I am also emailing it to you."
Did you think it would automatically update the Blackboard Gradebook the moment you sent me an email?
FWIW, when classes began on Monday, I sent my students an email explaining (just in case it wasn't yet clear) that our classes were all asynchronous, but that I'd hold office hours live via WebEx. I
immediately got six emails telling me that the WebEx link wasn't working (it wasn't time for my office hours!) and asking how they could access the class.
I don't blame them for it (yet!), but I do think it's indicative of the care with which emails are generally read.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 11, 2020, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: 0susanna on May 11, 2020, 11:16:11 AM
Student who had been doing quite well before pandemic/remote teaching transition, and even then submitted acceptable online discussion posts for the first couple of times. Ze went dark for a couple weeks, then submitted a series of assignments--three discussion posts and two essays--that had clearly been run through paraphrasing machines. I gave the assignments zeros and explained why, but refrained from submitting them to the usual academic dishonesty routine, because of the circumstances. I explained to student that while the circumstances might be stressful, plagiarism was still unacceptable. I found the sources for most of the material, but really didn't want deal with the rigamarole myself right now.
What response did I get from Stu Dent?
"I read your comments on my assignments, and I wanted to explain that because English is my second language, I often write assignments in [my language] and then run them through a translation generator."
Take the zero, young person. You do not want to pursue this.
I'd believe the student. It's pretty common for non-native speakers to write in their native language and run it through Google Translate or some other program. The clever ones will then clean it up a bit before submitting or ask a native speaker to proof-read.
I would believe the student if I had seen signs in assignments submitted before The Plague that ze was translating the material--awkward phrasing, etc. This student frequently participated in f2f class discussions and submitted written work that seemed quite competent, even during the first two weeks of remote learning/online discussions. As I mentioned, the key evidence of actual plagiarism was suddenly discussion posts were much longer than ever before, and passages in those posts can be traced to some of the usual suspects--eNotes, Schmoop, etc. An essay that was supposed to discuss a film was actually about the book, and several times "paraphrased" the author's name to a synonym (e.g., Young -> Youthful). In this case, I believe it was a case of stress--"I have to post something, but I haven't read the assignment. Here's some analysis...paraphrase-generator...that'll do."
Here's one: the accessibility office sent me a note a few days ago concerning a hearing-impaired student, and the accommodations they'd need. I thought, cool, I'm already in compliance.
Today I heard back from the student, and discovered that the note I got had not taken remote learning into consideration. Which, you know, I had sort of assumed it would. You'd think they'd be on top of that... sigh.
I'm sure it's not going to be too hard to figure out a solution, but the accessibility office seems to have offloaded that responsibility onto the student and her advisor, judging from the email I just got. Which seems like a job rather poorly done, and gives me today's dose of despair.
I set up an online discussion board so that students in the online summer course can ask questions. I'm encouraging them to post there (so others can see the answers too) rather than email me.
Student asks on the board "Hey, can we make a GroupMe for the course, so we can ask each other stuff?" "That's what this forum is for."
They'd rather ask each other questions than ask the instructor?
Apparently, the question the student wanted to ask the others on the GroupMe was "what does CST mean?" I learned this when the above student submitted his assignment 2 hours late "because no one knew that CST was about time zones."
For my formal methods class (which satisfies the university's quantitative reasoning distribution requirement), my introductory video has 50 views. After that, the lecture videos (in which I show them how to do stuff) have... 2-4ish views. One has 8. These are short videos (~6 mins.), and we're three weeks in. Nobody is going to be able to catch up.
Why am I doing all this, again? I might as well just put up the course shell, make the textbook, quizzes, and exam available, and just sit back.
When's the midterm?
They probably all plan to catch up on everything then.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 28, 2020, 07:52:49 PM
When's the midterm?
They probably all plan to catch up on everything then.
M.
This
is the mid-term (well, the point, not the exam; they have weekly tests but no midterm exam).
Oh well. I guess that's online courses for you.
Ah. Got it.
They do seem to need inbuilt traffic signals to motivate confrontations with reality.
I'm trying to think if I've ever taught a class without a midterm exam.
Not sure how I'd do that....
If it's methods work, are these grad students?
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 29, 2020, 05:19:08 AM
If it's methods work, are these grad students?
Oh no, not at all. It's gen-ed quantitative reasoning at the first-year level.
Quote from: RatGuy on May 28, 2020, 04:49:55 PM
I set up an online discussion board so that students in the online summer course can ask questions. I'm encouraging them to post there (so others can see the answers too) rather than email me.
Student asks on the board "Hey, can we make a GroupMe for the course, so we can ask each other stuff?" "That's what this forum is for."
They'd rather ask each other questions than ask the instructor?
Apparently, the question the student wanted to ask the others on the GroupMe was "what does CST mean?" I learned this when the above student submitted his assignment 2 hours late "because no one knew that CST was about time zones."
Aren't you in CDT now?
Every semester, my students have to take a syllabus quiz and get 100% in order to access the rest of the course material.
Every semester, some students take it and get less than 100% and then stop (instead of retaking it).
This semester, I got this (in an online class): "I can't see any of the quizzes except the syllabus quiz"? The students grade on the syllabus quiz? NOT TAKEN.
The ONE thing you can see to do, which says you MUST do it, and you haven't bothered.
Bang!Bang!Bang!
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2020, 06:41:59 AM
Every semester, my students have to take a syllabus quiz and get 100% in order to access the rest of the course material.
Every semester, some students take it and get less than 100% and then stop (instead of retaking it).
This semester, I got this (in an online class): "I can't see any of the quizzes except the syllabus quiz"? The students grade on the syllabus quiz? NOT TAKEN.
The ONE thing you can see to do, which says you MUST do it, and you haven't bothered.
Bang!Bang!Bang!
This gives me an idea: Set up a form on the web page which says:
"DO NOT CLICK THIS BUTTON! IT WILL DROP YOU FROM THE COURSE!"
And of course, the people who don't pay attention to instructions will click it and no longer be a problem!
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2020, 06:41:59 AM
Every semester, my students have to take a syllabus quiz and get 100% in order to access the rest of the course material.
Every semester, some students take it and get less than 100% and then stop (instead of retaking it).
This semester, I got this (in an online class): "I can't see any of the quizzes except the syllabus quiz"? The students grade on the syllabus quiz? NOT TAKEN.
The ONE thing you can see to do, which says you MUST do it, and you haven't bothered.
Bang!Bang!Bang!
For some assignments like that I have made the actual name of the assignment "Syllabus quiz (MUST GET 100% TO CONTINUE IN COURSE)"
That's BRILLIANT!! I am so stealing that.
The same student is now insisting that the problem is that Blackboard isn't working, not that it isn't working FOR HER or ON HER COMPUTER.
I've suggested a browser change, but she insists it works on Chrome (but not for her).
I don't know how to fix a tech issue when the student won't try any of the suggestions.
Quote from: kiana on May 30, 2020, 07:57:43 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2020, 06:41:59 AM
Every semester, my students have to take a syllabus quiz and get 100% in order to access the rest of the course material.
Every semester, some students take it and get less than 100% and then stop (instead of retaking it).
This semester, I got this (in an online class): "I can't see any of the quizzes except the syllabus quiz"? The students grade on the syllabus quiz? NOT TAKEN.
The ONE thing you can see to do, which says you MUST do it, and you haven't bothered.
Bang!Bang!Bang!
For some assignments like that I have made the actual name of the assignment "Syllabus quiz (MUST GET 100% TO CONTINUE IN COURSE)"
Heh — someone else with shouty assignment titles. I do that!
And in one of my courses that has daily readings, only some of which require a reading response, some of the reading files are called things like "Fringe et al. 2018 RESPONSE DUE BEFORE CLASS"
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2020, 09:37:20 AM
That's BRILLIANT!! I am so stealing that.
The same student is now insisting that the problem is that Blackboard isn't working, not that it isn't working FOR HER or ON HER COMPUTER.
I've suggested a browser change, but she insists it works on Chrome (but not for her).
I don't know how to fix a tech issue when the student won't try any of the suggestions.
Can you cc or bcc your IT department help desk on your latest exchange, or just forward your email string to them and say, " I don't know what else to tell her, can you pick this up?"
'Cause it's their job, not yours, to sort out that stuff...and it covers you when they say all the same things....
M.
One of my colleagues has a "system" for this type of student/situation.
When a student complains about a tech issue, he requires them to submit a cell phone picture of the computer screen that clearly shows the problem (e.g. a non-working browser). He also requires the student to submit a ticket request to the relevant tech service (e.g. IT, CMS support, publisher), and for himself to be CC'd in that ticket request along with the screen photo(s) of the problem. My colleague provides a listing of all relevant tech representatives as a reference so that students can't delay by either not being able to locate the right tech representative to contact, or to pretend that they can't locate the right tech representative to contact.
My colleague says his procedure works almost every time in either helping the student quickly get the tech problem corrected, or outing students who don't really have a problem but are just being whiny butts about doing their work.
That belongs on the Jedi Mind Tricks thread.
M.
A number of students in my quantitative reasoning course are asking for my lectures "notes". I narrate PowerPoint slides and make them short videos demonstrating various principles. They have access to all of that.
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
A number of students in my quantitative reasoning course are asking for my lectures "notes". I narrate PowerPoint slides and make them short videos demonstrating various principles. They have access to all of that.
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
The mythical ones! Those that list the really important points that will be on the test, have the important vocabulary highlighted, and generally allow them to distinguish the wheat of the course from the chaff. This is vitally important because it allows them to focus their studies on learning how to excel in the class without bothering to learn all the useless stuff you cover, too.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
A number of students in my quantitative reasoning course are asking for my lectures "notes". I narrate PowerPoint slides and make them short videos demonstrating various principles. They have access to all of that.
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
Is this the same class where they are not viewing the videos (reported up-thread)? There may be a technical issue here, as I have had students report that they did not even know there were videos associated with my on-line class because they had not flipped some widget that allowed the videos to show in Canvas (I think it was a preference in their web browser, as opposed to something in Canvas). If not technical in the technical sense, it is probably "technical" insofar as they are not seeing your "notes" because they are not watching the videos. You might send a class-wide announcement with the positive spin that you are looking forward to reading the class discussion that expounds upon xyz from this week's video (and, of course, follow-up with an actual discussion question based on ideas in the video).
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
Students do so little public speaking that they cannot fathom people knowing the material enough to just talk.
Students do so little public speaking on topics they know that they can't fathom just putting together slides from memory instead of having pages and pages of recent reading with highlighting.
I've handed students my lecture notes and they've been surprised at how little is there other than worked problems with a reminder like 'pause here and reemphasize what the problem statement has'.
Yep, because I know what 'tell the four rules joke' means.
I can also do the problems without the notes, but the step-by-step reminders to show every single step is to the benefit of the students since then I pause and go slowly while writing on the board or equivalent.
Quote from: arcturus on May 31, 2020, 09:38:51 AM
Is this the same class where they are not viewing the videos (reported up-thread)? There may be a technical issue here, as I have had students report that they did not even know there were videos associated with my on-line class because they had not flipped some widget that allowed the videos to show in Canvas (I think it was a preference in their web browser, as opposed to something in Canvas). If not technical in the technical sense, it is probably "technical" insofar as they are not seeing your "notes" because they are not watching the videos. You might send a class-wide announcement with the positive spin that you are looking forward to reading the class discussion that expounds upon xyz from this week's video (and, of course, follow-up with an actual discussion question based on ideas in the video).
This might well be the issue (although I've uploaded things to YouTube, so there's really no LMS-based reason they can't see it all). I'm going to make some inquiries to try to ascertain if that's the problem, then follow up with a gentle announcement, as you suggest.
Quote from: polly_mer on May 31, 2020, 10:09:01 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
Students do so little public speaking that they cannot fathom people knowing the material enough to just talk.
Students do so little public speaking on topics they know that they can't fathom just putting together slides from memory instead of having pages and pages of recent reading with highlighting.
I've handed students my lecture notes and they've been surprised at how little is there other than worked problems with a reminder like 'pause here and reemphasize what the problem statement has'.
Yep, because I know what 'tell the four rules joke' means.
I can also do the problems without the notes, but the step-by-step reminders to show every single step is to the benefit of the students since then I pause and go slowly while writing on the board or equivalent.
I don't want to believe that this is what's happening, but I confess that I've been thinking along the same lines.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 31, 2020, 08:47:27 AM
A number of students in my quantitative reasoning course are asking for my lectures "notes". I narrate PowerPoint slides and make them short videos demonstrating various principles. They have access to all of that.
What on earth do they mean by my "notes"? There are no notes. The lectures are the notes. What other notes could there be?
I always have a few people who never come to class, and blindly ask for "class notes" near exam times. Asking for "class notes" seems to be a default behavior for a subset of students who have no idea what's happening in a course and have no interest in finding out what's happening in a course, but they'll ask for "class notes" as a Hail Mary.
I always say, to that specific request (as opposed to the Ppts, discussed above...not the same, in my mind),
"Class notes are notes students taken in class. When you miss a class, you're expected to get class notes from someone else. In the first week of class, I asked you to identify someone you could do that with on an 'easily-asked-for-and-given' basis.
You need to go to that person now and ask to copy their notes."
M.
Hard drive crash.
Hours of teaching videos lost, permanently.
Videos needed for the class I am teaching right NOW, so I must redo them, now.
Time I do not have.
[Power failure, WHILE copying the files to the multitude of backups.)
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 04:35:59 AM
Hard drive crash.
Hours of teaching videos lost, permanently.
Videos needed for the class I am teaching right NOW, so I must redo them, now.
Time I do not have.
(Power failure, WHILE copying the files to the multitude of backups.)
That's one of those nightmare scenarios.....
My sympathies.
Oh! Some of the files passed through Google Drive at some point! I can recover those....
Not all, but some.
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:08:29 AM
Oh! Some of the files passed through Google Drive at some point! I can recover those....
Not all, but some.
"Some" >>> "none"
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 05:10:53 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:08:29 AM
Oh! Some of the files passed through Google Drive at some point! I can recover those....
Not all, but some.
"Some" >>> "none"
I was promised there would be no math.....
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:36:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 05:10:53 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:08:29 AM
Oh! Some of the files passed through Google Drive at some point! I can recover those....
Not all, but some.
"Some" >>> "none"
I was promised there would be no math.....
Your frat buddy Carl is not a reliable source since he so seldom came to class and accessed zero of the online videos.
Quote from: polly_mer on June 10, 2020, 06:34:02 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:36:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 10, 2020, 05:10:53 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 05:08:29 AM
Oh! Some of the files passed through Google Drive at some point! I can recover those....
Not all, but some.
"Some" >>> "none"
I was promised there would be no math.....
Your frat buddy Carl is not a reliable source since he so seldom came to class and accessed zero of the online videos.
But everyone I talked to said that
no-one watched the videos!
Quote from: FishProf on June 10, 2020, 04:35:59 AM
Hard drive crash.
Hours of teaching videos lost, permanently.
Videos needed for the class I am teaching right NOW, so I must redo them, now.
Time I do not have.
[Power failure, WHILE copying the files to the multitude of backups.)
How's it going?
Were you able to scrape enough off G-Drive to make it work?
There are online recovery systems for XHDDs that are pretty good: I used one a year ago that recovered most of my materials just a week before one of my 3-week study trips for which I reallllllly needed them.
I'll have to poke around in my emails to locate the site: they survey your XHDD to see if the files are recoverable, tell you the diagnosis, and let you decide before charging you (it was 65.00 then) and starting the recovery.
It's not fast-- I had a lot of files and had to leave it setup over night--and not everything is recovered (and not all your deeply nested files may come through in full) but it was more than good enough to work with.
M.
I think I recovered the important stuff that wasn't already backed up elsewhere, but had to spend the day redoing the work that had been done.
So a win, of sorts.
So, I found the recovery service I used last year, just in case it's useful to someone:
Your EaseUS Data Recovery Wizard Professional (12.8 was the version they were using then),
it was listed as belonging to Cleverbridge, and the link was:
https://www.easeus.com/download.htm
M.
Got an email last night... about 40 minutes before the first quiz was due. Apparently, this student is having difficulties and lives out in the middle of nowhere with an internet speed of 6 Mb/s.
This is first contact. Hu's been in the class for over a week.
I don't know if it's despair; it's probably more extreme annoyance but since I can't say anything to this student without causing hell to rain down on me for not be supportive enough and student-centered during this stressful time, please allow me to vent here and skip this post if you don't want a vent.
Dear graduate student,
I recognize that this a stressful time, and there are deadlines that need to be met. Thus, I am working on the weekend even though I should instead be modeling appropriate self-care. Given that, when you send me a document for review on Friday afternoon, I do not need a follow-up email less than 24 hours later on Saturday afternoon, and I especially don't need an email that begins "I would like to remind you that. . ."
I would like to remind you that you are the one who caused this tight deadline by not getting this document to me in a timely manner in the 1st place and by not bothering to read the document specifications when you submitted your initial draft.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 20, 2020, 11:12:47 AM
. . . even though I should instead be modeling appropriate self-care.
This is a wonderful phrase that I shall henceforth use as an introductory clause whenever appropriate.
Even though I should instead be modeling appropriate self-care, I will unload the dishwasher.
Even though I should instead be modeling appropriate self-care, I will attend your committee meeting.
Even though I should instead be modeling appropriate self-care, I will take five minutes and make some Black Lives Matter noises on Twitter lest I be sent to a concentration camp.
I love it!
"Book is great source for studying and preparing for exam instead of reading."
From comments I solicited from the students this summer term. (I don't use textbooks for non-formal classes; I just post the articles I want them to read, so that (1) I can tailor the class to the topics and authors I want them to read, and (2) they don't have to spend $100+ on a textbook.)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
"Book is great source for studying and preparing for exam instead of reading."
Well...maybe the student was just trying to say that the book was a useful source, but not something that the student found enjoyable to read.
Quote from: apl68 on June 27, 2020, 09:12:30 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
"Book is great source for studying and preparing for exam instead of reading."
Well...maybe the student was just trying to say that the book was a useful source, but not something that the student found enjoyable to read.
I first thought of that but then re-read the post. It's a little unclear, but it looks like there was no book required for the course to begin with, suggesting that maybe the evaluation was stock text the student has developed to include on all their evals, or something.
Maybe our pointy-headed hadrosaurid friend can elucidate??
;--》
M.
Interesting. I interpreted it as the student saying they would have preferred a textbook because it would be easier to study compared to the assorted readings assigned in the course.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
"Book is great source for studying and preparing for exam instead of reading."
From comments I solicited from the students this summer term. (I don't use textbooks for non-formal classes; I just post the articles I want them to read, so that (1) I can tailor the class to the topics and authors I want them to read, and (2) they don't have to spend $100+ on a textbook.)
Depends on the level of student and the subject area.
A survey course such as Intro to Business, etc really needs a textbook to create a consistent framework. A collection of articles won't use the same themes or definitions... or different enough as to feel disjointed for a student.
Advanced students who have a solid framework can do fine on a collection of articles... but then the objectives are different.
Quote from: mamselle on June 27, 2020, 10:04:32 AM
I first thought of that but then re-read the post. It's a little unclear, but it looks like there was no book required for the course to begin with, suggesting that maybe the evaluation was stock text the student has developed to include on all their evals, or something.
Maybe our pointy-headed hadrosaurid friend can elucidate??
Right. There's no textbook.
What kills me is the "instead of reading".
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 27, 2020, 03:20:23 PM
Quote from: mamselle on June 27, 2020, 10:04:32 AM
I first thought of that but then re-read the post. It's a little unclear, but it looks like there was no book required for the course to begin with, suggesting that maybe the evaluation was stock text the student has developed to include on all their evals, or something.
Maybe our pointy-headed hadrosaurid friend can elucidate??
Right. There's no textbook.
What kills me is the "instead of reading".
You've mentioned teaching foreign nationals. My bet is this response was written by someone with a native language that doesn't have articles and does have a casual approach to plurals.
Thus, "readings" would not be a thing for someone who thinks one reading, two reading. As one colleague explained, I already told you there were two; why the need for changing the noun?
That would also explain "Book" instead of "A book is a great source...instead of <just> readings"
Agree with Morden and polly_mer, the student seems to prefer a book over having to retrieve assorted readings from Blackboard.
I just had a conversation with an angry student who is failing my class because she hasn't done any of the lab assignments. Why not?
"The class is online. How an there be labs?"
Oh, I don't know. Maybe read the syllabus where it is explained, or watch the first class meeting video, where it is explained. Or open the assigned instructions for an individual lab, where it is explained. Or watch the "how to take practical exams" video, where it is explained. Or ask, sometime before the last 2 days of the semester, about those announcements you don't understand.
The Fall is looking worse and worse.
Really get annoyed when students try to throw me under the bus.
"Sorry this is late, Professor, but my TA did not tell me we had to get it in on [Due Date]."
Em...actually, I did. Verbally in section and again in an email.
Also, the professor himself made a verbal announcement in class and posted an announcement to the class forum (which should have also been sent automatically to your email). When you had three different ways to get the information from the professor, did you really think pinning your ignorance of the due date on me was going to absolve you of all responsibility? He knows he made an announcement...
Ah, smallcleanrat, welcome to teaching.
I've had students tell me I didn't make an announcement that was still written on the board in the announcement area where I put the daily announcements.
My favorite example of students flat out failing in attention was the third time in a row that a nearly identical question was asked. One of the best students exploded with, "Dr. Mer literally spent the last ten minutes on that question. Weren't you paying attention to the last two questions? That's the third time someone asked that same question!"
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 26, 2020, 06:00:19 PM
"Book is great source for studying and preparing for exam instead of reading."
I think that's actually the definition of a textbook.
Yes, reading/readings confusion does seem likely. That's some comfort, thank you.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on June 28, 2020, 01:44:31 PM
Really get annoyed when students try to throw me under the bus.
"Sorry this is late, Professor, but my TA did not tell me we had to get it in on [Due Date]."
Em...actually, I did. Verbally in section and again in an email.
Also, the professor himself made a verbal announcement in class and posted an announcement to the class forum (which should have also been sent automatically to your email). When you had three different ways to get the information from the professor, did you really think pinning your ignorance of the due date on me was going to absolve you of all responsibility? He knows he made an announcement...
As Polly said, "Welcome to teaching!". I am occasionally amazed by students who don't realize that instructors & TAs 1) know each other and 2) do talk about the class together. In fact, we cc each other or forward emails from students to each other. Lots of students will try the "if the instructor says no, ask the TA" strategy.
I need to revisit the Jedi Mind Tricks thread. I'm trying to condition my students to start their work EARLY. We're halfway through a seven week term and they are waiting to the absolute last minute to contact me with questions.
I just received an email asking for help on a lab that is due in the next 40 minutes. I'm not responding to it until tomorrow.
Double post.
I think I was accidentally included on an email to the class asking for answers...WWTFD?
Reply "all" and let them know they're all busted.
M.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Double post.
I think I was accidentally included on an email to the class asking for answers...WWTFD?
Reply all with a verbatim quote of your plagiarism/cheating statement from your syllabus, and possibly the academic integrity statement from your school's student handbook, with consequences laid out, and throw in a short discussion of professional expectations for good measure, tailored to whatever profession your students are most likely going into, if it's that sort of course.
Quote from: sprout on July 02, 2020, 12:20:06 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2020, 08:55:39 PM
Double post.
I think I was accidentally included on an email to the class asking for answers...WWTFD?
Reply all with a verbatim quote of your plagiarism/cheating statement from your syllabus, and possibly the academic integrity statement from your school's student handbook, with consequences laid out, and throw in a short discussion of professional expectations for good measure, tailored to whatever profession your students are most likely going into, if it's that sort of course.
This. And document it (save the email). Forward it to your department chair to let them know what's happening. This is a time to CYA in advance in case there are student complaints.
Currently grading Astronomy midterms. Student misidentifies the Sun's corona as the asteroid belt.
What makes it worse?
Apparently, the asteroid belt is made of stars and the Sun is a planet.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 04, 2020, 05:27:52 PM
Currently grading Astronomy midterms. Student misidentifies the Sun's corona as the asteroid belt.
What makes it worse?
Apparently, the asteroid belt is made of stars and the Sun is a planet.
At least green cheese didn't show up.
Quote from: Juvenal on July 05, 2020, 07:29:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 04, 2020, 05:27:52 PM
Currently grading Astronomy midterms. Student misidentifies the Sun's corona as the asteroid belt.
What makes it worse?
Apparently, the asteroid belt is made of stars and the Sun is a planet.
At least green cheese didn't show up.
My teachers always said I should be an astronaut because all I did was take up space in school.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 04, 2020, 05:27:52 PM
Currently grading Astronomy midterms. Student misidentifies the Sun's corona as the asteroid belt.
What makes it worse?
Apparently, the asteroid belt is made of stars and the Sun is a planet.
That reminds me of Catherynne Valente's beautiful vision of our solar system in
Radiance.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 04, 2020, 05:27:52 PM
Currently grading Astronomy midterms. Student misidentifies the Sun's corona as the asteroid belt.
What makes it worse?
Apparently, the asteroid belt is made of stars and the Sun is a planet.
Some of these students of outer space give the impression of kind of being there already.
I have a student who is perplexed about why I am saying he didn't do all the quizzes. I dunno, maybe it is the 33 assignments with no grade.
Seriously, how do you miss that?
You took quizzes for HALF of the chapters. How is it confusing that you have Zeros for the ones you didn't take?
He read E. Nesbit's "Half Magic," and is trying to make it come true?
M.
Quote from: FishProf on July 07, 2020, 12:46:45 PM
I have a student who is perplexed about why I am saying he didn't do all the quizzes. I dunno, maybe it is the 33 assignments with no grade.
Seriously, how do you miss that?
You took quizzes for HALF of the chapters. How is it confusing that you have Zeros for the ones you didn't take?
I have one of those now, too. He wanted to know why he got 0/10 for participation, so I pointed out that while we're online, participation = 1 post in the discussion forum per week (for 1.5 points each!), and that he'd contributed 0 posts.
Now he says he remembers writing them but they've mysteriously disappeared, and maybe he erased them. smh
Half Magic was by Edward Eager, although he was trying to recreate the atmosphere of E. Nesbitt.
Now I want to go read the whole oeuvre of each of them.
Thanks!
Yes, in elementary school our librarian had a list of those books, and anything on pioneers that I hadn't read, and she knew to hold them for me until our class library time each week.
Sometimes she even saw me in the hall and let me know they were in....bad habits start young...
;--》
But yes, that's how long ago it's been...thank for the correction!
I'd forgotten the correct author.
M.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 08, 2020, 02:55:44 AM
Half Magic was by Edward Eager, although he was trying to recreate the atmosphere of E. Nesbitt.
Now I want to go read the whole oeuvre of each of them.
I saw a copy of
Half Magic while I was in fifth grade and thought it looked interesting, but never got around to reading it. Until about four or five years ago. Not sure whether to be proud of that or embarrassed.
Just be glad you got to read them, maybe?
One thing I recall that seemed important about those books was that "the magic had rules" and part of the interest was figuring out what the "rules" were, and how they "worked."
It wasn't just run-of-the-mill, open-ended magic, there was structure and texture to it.
You entered into a conversation with its mysterious nature, you didn't just "get your own way" with it.
The magic had integrity.
M.
This time a different student emailed the class about 'being stuck.' I had open question time on Webex today for over an hour- TWICE! Student was in both sessions.
I emailed the first student who emailed the class since that email was 'looking for answers.' This one just asked for 'help.' Not sure what to do. I could send a warning, but that may just drive them to not include me in the mass email. SMDH.
Quote from: mamselle on July 08, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Just be glad you got to read them, maybe?
One thing I recall that seemed important about those books was that "the magic had rules" and part of the interest was figuring out what the "rules" were, and how they "worked."
It wasn't just run-of-the-mill, open-ended magic, there was structure and texture to it.
You entered into a conversation with its mysterious nature, you didn't just "get your own way" with it.
The magic had integrity.
M.
Yes, for a story that goes beyond basic fairy tale stuff having the magic follow some kind of discernible pattern is part of the fun.
It has been said that, just as sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Yum!
^Like!
M.
Quote from: apl68 on July 09, 2020, 07:45:13 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 08, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Just be glad you got to read them, maybe?
One thing I recall that seemed important about those books was that "the magic had rules" and part of the interest was figuring out what the "rules" were, and how they "worked."
It wasn't just run-of-the-mill, open-ended magic, there was structure and texture to it.
You entered into a conversation with its mysterious nature, you didn't just "get your own way" with it.
The magic had integrity.
M.
Yes, for a story that goes beyond basic fairy tale stuff having the magic follow some kind of discernible pattern is part of the fun.
It has been said that, just as sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology.
I absolutely loved Edward Eager's books. I can't count how many times I read and reread Knight's Castle.
I've just found that you can "borrow" Knight's Castle for two weeks over at Archive.org. I'm now on Chapter 4.
I am teaching an online graduate course, and the students are reading a controversial opinion article this week on a hot topic. It usually generates a very polar response (students totally agree or disagree with this author). A student just posted something like "WOW! I cannot believe this author has the audacity to make this argument! This is why I am using so many apostrophes!" I wrote the student an email suggesting hu meant exclamation points instead of apostrophes and that hu could edit the post on the discussion board. I did not realize graduate students might confuse these two punctuation marks.
Also interesting is that at least three students assumed the author is male which is not the case. I asked one to please explain why hu made that assumption, which has actually created some interesting side discussions.
Next semester, I am putting something in my syllabi that basically state that I am not answering any questions the day something is due. I have been receiving just an amazing amount of email today about a lab that is due tonight. Judging by some of the emails, they are JUST starting the lab.
Banging head.
This is administrative despair as much as anything, but...
I was slated to teach a class at our satellite campus for high school students looking to earn university credit. It was slated to be mixed-modality, with much smaller enrollment, and paid (and loaded) as 1.5 courses (due to the modality and travel involved). The whole thing has been a bit of an administrative disaster so far, including several meetings trying to hammer out a theme (because they want the whole suite of courses offered at the satellite campus to pick up on a theme of interest to the local population), only to be told repeatedly by our liaison that the "theme" is "university courses for credit at the high school". 0_o
Anyway. I checked my enrollments today. I have as many students enrolled as I normally do. Fully 90% of them are international students from our main campus, and the other 10% are domestic students from our main campus. So: I have 0 students from the satellite campus. And as far as I'm aware, it's still slated to be mixed-mode.
*headdesk*
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 15, 2020, 05:27:56 PM
Next semester, I am putting something in my syllabi that basically state that I am not answering any questions the day something is due. I have been receiving just an amazing amount of email today about a lab that is due tonight. Judging by some of the emails, they are JUST starting the lab.
Banging head.
That's why I never have late night or evening due dates. I'm not going to spend my weekend answering work emails or staying up late just in case they might have a question. But I've taken over a course that has assignments due at midnight on Saturdays [bang! bang! bang!].
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 20, 2020, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 15, 2020, 05:27:56 PM
Next semester, I am putting something in my syllabi that basically state that I am not answering any questions the day something is due. I have been receiving just an amazing amount of email today about a lab that is due tonight. Judging by some of the emails, they are JUST starting the lab.
Banging head.
That's why I never have late night or evening due dates. I'm not going to spend my weekend answering work emails or staying up late just in case they might have a question. But I've taken over a course that has assignments due at midnight on Saturdays [bang! bang! bang!].
Our department has 'encouraged' us to have 11:59pm as the due date time. Sigh.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 20, 2020, 02:18:34 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 20, 2020, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 15, 2020, 05:27:56 PM
Next semester, I am putting something in my syllabi that basically state that I am not answering any questions the day something is due. I have been receiving just an amazing amount of email today about a lab that is due tonight. Judging by some of the emails, they are JUST starting the lab.
Banging head.
That's why I never have late night or evening due dates. I'm not going to spend my weekend answering work emails or staying up late just in case they might have a question. But I've taken over a course that has assignments due at midnight on Saturdays [bang! bang! bang!].
Our department has 'encouraged' us to have 11:59pm as the due date time. Sigh.
I put a line in the syllabus about how I do not answers emails after 4:00pm or on weekends. My thought is, if the students want to procrastinate, then me not being available to answer questions at the stroke of midnight is the price they are willing to pay.
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 20, 2020, 03:47:52 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 20, 2020, 02:18:34 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 20, 2020, 12:02:47 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 15, 2020, 05:27:56 PM
Next semester, I am putting something in my syllabi that basically state that I am not answering any questions the day something is due. I have been receiving just an amazing amount of email today about a lab that is due tonight. Judging by some of the emails, they are JUST starting the lab.
Banging head.
That's why I never have late night or evening due dates. I'm not going to spend my weekend answering work emails or staying up late just in case they might have a question. But I've taken over a course that has assignments due at midnight on Saturdays [bang! bang! bang!].
Our department has 'encouraged' us to have 11:59pm as the due date time. Sigh.
I put a line in the syllabus about how I do not answers emails after 4:00pm or on weekends. My thought is, if the students want to procrastinate, then me not being available to answer questions at the stroke of midnight is the price they are willing to pay.
This is what I will start putting in my syllabus. I already have a statement about not answering email on weekends.
Student contacts me TODAY and wants to make up THREE tests for the summer semester. Insert any and all excuses, which may or may not be true. I have sympathy, but I looked and the student has been accessing the course throughout the entire semester, so I'm not sure about the 'broken computer' excuse.
Finals start next week. It's a little late to ask me about making up three tests and homework that occurred last month.
Bang. Bang. Bang.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 09:44:41 AM
Student contacts me TODAY and wants to make up THREE tests for the summer semester. Insert any and all excuses, which may or may not be true. I have sympathy, but I looked and the student has been accessing the course throughout the entire semester, so I'm not sure about the 'broken computer' excuse.
Finals start next week. It's a little late to ask me about making up three tests and homework that occurred last month.
Bang. Bang. Bang.
We have a LOT of students taking their online classes entirely on their smartphones. Not ideal, but sometimes a phone is the only internet access that is entirely theirs (e.g. one computer in the household is shared with working parents and/or homeschooled siblings). Does your school rent or loan computers? If so, it's a kindness to tell the student.
As for making up work more than a month late, that's entirely your call (I'd say "no", but that's because my syllabus says late assignments earn a 0).
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 22, 2020, 10:00:35 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 09:44:41 AM
Student contacts me TODAY and wants to make up THREE tests for the summer semester. Insert any and all excuses, which may or may not be true. I have sympathy, but I looked and the student has been accessing the course throughout the entire semester, so I'm not sure about the 'broken computer' excuse.
Finals start next week. It's a little late to ask me about making up three tests and homework that occurred last month.
Bang. Bang. Bang.
We have a LOT of students taking their online classes entirely on their smartphones. Not ideal, but sometimes a phone is the only internet access that is entirely theirs (e.g. one computer in the household is shared with working parents and/or homeschooled siblings). Does your school rent or loan computers? If so, it's a kindness to tell the student.
As for making up work more than a month late, that's entirely your call (I'd say "no", but that's because my syllabus says late assignments earn a 0).
I'm aware of this; however, we use Respondus and webcams for tests and I saw this student on the first test using a laptop. Yes, it could have broken in that time, but this is the first I am hearing about it. I'm sympathetic, but since the end of the semester is right around the corner, there really isn't anything I can do that doesn't go against my syllabus policies and the Department policies.
I suggested that the student investigate a hardship withdrawal.
If their phone is working, can't it be tethered to the computer as a hotspot?
M.
Not sure if this is a head-bang or a vent.
I took over a class last-minute in Week 2 of the term due to a colleague leaving sooner than expected. I was told that the class was "entirely ready to-go". What I wasn't told is that half the materials are no longer available (broken links), the learning goals don't match with the assignments, the assignments don't match the materials, and students were straight up told that attendance is optional. It's just a mess.
But, as it's not my class, I have to just roll with it and only fix the most glaring issues.
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
See The Syllabus.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
Dear Student,
Thank you for your email. Please read the syllabus for what will be on your exam.
Dr. Evil_Physics_Witchcraft
Well, it's the end of the semester and the stress levels are high. Student #3 emailed me about 3 hours ago. I've been busy since then and just got back to my computer and see... another email from Student #3 with the same questions. Oh, and Student #3 is responding to an email from July 7th.
Sigh. I know they're all freaking out, but for the love of all that is holy, they need to take some chill pills.
I hate it when students think I'm stupid or unobservant. It's the end of my Writing in Science class. The last assignment is to revise their paper based on the extensive feedback given my myself and their peers. Students were warned that my primary criteria for the grade would be "evidence of revision". I even suggest students include a cover note detailing their revisions.
One student revised her title (fixed the typos only) and added one sentence to the abstract. All the typos in the body? or suggestions of places to expand her analysis?, or any of the myriad other needed fixes? Totally ignored. So her grade on the paper is now the only one that has dropped. I put good odds on a whiny email at the end of the semester about this.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
I've found that "review sheets" are helpful. The review sheet is nothing but a listing of the topics and readings we covered taken off the syllabus. It takes about 2 minutes to put together. For some reason, students seem to like this and I don't get those questions.
Quote from: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
I've found that "review sheets" are helpful. The review sheet is nothing but a listing of the topics and readings we covered taken off the syllabus. It takes about 2 minutes to put together. For some reason, students seem to like this and I don't get those questions.
Posted to the Jedi mind tricks (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=10.0) thread.
Quote from: Caracal on July 29, 2020, 12:44:45 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 22, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
That sucks, the_geneticist.
In other news, I have received several emails from students regarding 'what's on the test.' 'What's on the test' is clearly outlined in the syllabus. I need to find a tactful way to saying this. Any suggestions?
I've found that "review sheets" are helpful. The review sheet is nothing but a listing of the topics and readings we covered taken off the syllabus. It takes about 2 minutes to put together. For some reason, students seem to like this and I don't get those questions.
I usually post topics on the board, but since we've been online I sort of forgot... I plan to prepare a few review pdfs for next semester.
So I just accidentally brushed the ESC key (I think) and lost a Canvas message to a student that took 20 minutes to draft. It just disappeared *poof*
WHY CANT THEY AUTOSAVE OR AT LEAST HAVE MORE SAFEGUARDS!?!?!?!?!?
Quote from: Diogenes on July 30, 2020, 06:12:16 PM
So I just accidentally brushed the ESC key (I think) and lost a Canvas message to a student that took 20 minutes to draft. It just disappeared *poof*
WHY CANT THEY AUTOSAVE OR AT LEAST HAVE MORE SAFEGUARDS!?!?!?!?!?
I draft a lot of things in a non-online program and then cut-and-paste after a couple experiences like that. I have no idea why more portals don't autosave, but it's annoyingly common.
Yeah, I type up everything in another program (MSW, or a text program), or do a "select all" if it's getting long, and copy it to paste into an email to myself as a form of backup, for the same reason.
It's truly maddening.
M.
P.S. Sometimes for forum posts I've discovered I can use the back arrow on the page to get the frame back with the text in it. But not always... - M.
This one's a real gem.
I had a student take a final exam... on a plane because family bought surprise tickets to <insert special Florida vacation spot>. Student had to turn off the lockdown and webcam.
Hmm....
Student who took only one test (but didn't turn in any answers) out of four and did not take the final wants to 'talk.'
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 03, 2020, 03:41:16 PM
Student who took only one test (but didn't turn in any answers) out of four and did not take the final wants to 'talk.'
I'd direct them to the syllabus, their advisor, and the registrar's policies on late Withdrawl. If the student had an emergency or crisis, there are resources to help them. If they just "forgot" that they were enrolled, that's another issue.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 31, 2020, 04:29:38 PM
This one's a real gem.
I had a student take a final exam... on a plane because family bought surprise tickets to <insert special Florida vacation spot>. Student had to turn off the lockdown and webcam.
Hmm....
If ever there would be a good time for a student to say "No, Parental Units, I cannot take a vacation during finals week," it would be when the parental units are suggesting the student
fly to
Florida during a pandemic.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 03, 2020, 03:43:44 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 03, 2020, 03:41:16 PM
Student who took only one test (but didn't turn in any answers) out of four and did not take the final wants to 'talk.'
I'd direct them to the syllabus, their advisor, and the registrar's policies on late Withdrawl. If the student had an emergency or crisis, there are resources to help them. If they just "forgot" that they were enrolled, that's another issue.
Right. I already had a discussion with the student two weeks ago with these same talking points. Student suggested that I allow stu to take all missed tests in a day. I said, 'No.' I'm thinking the student wants to try again for a Hail Mary.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 03, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 03, 2020, 03:43:44 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 03, 2020, 03:41:16 PM
Student who took only one test (but didn't turn in any answers) out of four and did not take the final wants to 'talk.'
I'd direct them to the syllabus, their advisor, and the registrar's policies on late Withdrawl. If the student had an emergency or crisis, there are resources to help them. If they just "forgot" that they were enrolled, that's another issue.
Right. I already had a discussion with the student two weeks ago with these same talking points. Student suggested that I allow stu to take all missed tests in a day. I said, 'No.' I'm thinking the student wants to try again for a Hail Mary.
If they missed the final exam, just submit their course grade as a 0 and be done with it. The class is over. You don't have to meet with them.
I just "graded" the dumbest essay of the year . . . at least so far. Pretty much along the lines of "A Modest Proposal" being immoral because "eating babies is plainly wrong and we just don't do things like that in today's times." It's not just that she missed the point of the essay (which is not that unusual for the Swift essay), but it's like she read the first paragraph of a plot summary on CheatEssays.com and made a guess at what might have offended her. In 3rd grade English. I mean, she was pretty steamed about a work she hadn't read. Just saddening and bizarre.
Dear Provost,
We worked to get the Fall schedule setup so that
1)Sections 1-4 of [Basketweaving I] was for Major X Freshpeeps ONLY, all Instructor A.
2) Sections 5-6 of [Basketweaving I] was for Major Y Freshpeeps ONLY, All instructor B.
3) Sections 7 of [Basketweaving I] was for anyone else who needs it for (other than FishProfU) programs. Instructor C.
YOU wanted this to cut down on complaints about disparities in teaching b/w sections.
So we did.
Now, at the first whiny complaint from a [non-major X/Y] student, you want me to let them (and anyone else) in? Why did we bother with all that rigamarole in the first place?
Student emails me with a question about Respondus. However, the student is asking about a Communications class.... which I do not teach......
The graduate student who appeared to ignore most of my emails and almost flunked class, only to inform me on the very last day of the quarter that his university email had not been reinstated after he took an extended leave of absence.
The other graduate student who did almost nothing all quarter (in spite of a formal warning plan and a whole lot more encouragement and grace from me than she should have gotten) and then AFTER the course ended emailed me and asked if we could come to "some kind of agreement" that would allow her to pass class. Um, no. You'll get your 36% transformed into a grade. See you again for the same class next time!
I get the hybrid format is new and confusing, but I'm getting way too many emails asking me a variation on "where is the reading?" There's a reading list on the syllabus and it contains authors, titles, and page numbers. And yet students apparently a) don't realize that there's a textbook b) bought the wrong textbook c) got an earlier edition of the textbook so the page numbers don't align d) the ebook doesn't have page numbers or some combination of the above.
I understand that it is the first week of the semester and you may still be learning about the LMS. However, please check that the file you have uploaded actually contains your work. We cannot grade what we cannot see.
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 12:54:50 PM
I understand that it is the first week of the semester and you may still be learning about the LMS. However, please check that the file you have uploaded actually contains your work. We cannot grade what we cannot see.
Not to be too cynical, but this is a classic stalling technique to get more time.
My solution is to have them upload something in Week 1 for points. If they can do it once on a small/easy assignment, then I know they can do it for a bigger assignment.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 28, 2020, 01:46:15 PM
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 12:54:50 PM
I understand that it is the first week of the semester and you may still be learning about the LMS. However, please check that the file you have uploaded actually contains your work. We cannot grade what we cannot see.
Not to be too cynical, but this is a classic stalling technique to get more time.
My solution is to have them upload something in Week 1 for points. If they can do it once on a small/easy assignment, then I know they can do it for a bigger assignment.
Every semester I send class-wide announcements urging students to verify that the documents they upload to the LMS contain the content they would like to have considered for a grade. Every semester, however, numerous students submit blank documents. While it can be a stalling tactic, many of these documents are submitted well in advance of the deadline. So it appears to be a technology challenge, not a "I failed at time management" challenge.
As a separate (but related) wail of woe, why can't students use the template documents we provide (which makes grading easier, since all will have similar formats) rather than creatively constructing their own? We have space for you to answer questions 1, 2, and 3 in nice, clearly separate, formats. Bunching your responses in a single paragraph (with 10 point font, to boot) makes it very difficult to evaluate your work.
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
As a separate (but related) wail of woe, why can't students use the template documents we provide (which makes grading easier, since all will have similar formats) rather than creatively constructing their own? We have space for you to answer questions 1, 2, and 3 in nice, clearly separate, formats. Bunching your responses in a single paragraph (with 10 point font, to boot) makes it very difficult to evaluate your work.
If you come up with a solution to this, please let me know. It's so bewildering when I have clearly laid out "Answer questions 1, 2, 3, and 4" and I get a five-paragraph essay in response!
Quote from: sprout on August 28, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
As a separate (but related) wail of woe, why can't students use the template documents we provide (which makes grading easier, since all will have similar formats) rather than creatively constructing their own? We have space for you to answer questions 1, 2, and 3 in nice, clearly separate, formats. Bunching your responses in a single paragraph (with 10 point font, to boot) makes it very difficult to evaluate your work.
If you come up with a solution to this, please let me know. It's so bewildering when I have clearly laid out "Answer questions 1, 2, 3, and 4" and I get a five-paragraph essay in response!
This. This this this. And I feel kind of bad about it because I don't really want to say to them, "don't you dare find your own way to demonstrate this," but it takes so much longer to grade. I have had some luck lessening the occurrences of this by explaining in the assignment directions and in class that it takes me much longer to grade when they don't use the template, and could they please use the template as a courtesy to me.
Quote from: Bonnie on August 28, 2020, 03:24:38 PM
Quote from: sprout on August 28, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
As a separate (but related) wail of woe, why can't students use the template documents we provide (which makes grading easier, since all will have similar formats) rather than creatively constructing their own? We have space for you to answer questions 1, 2, and 3 in nice, clearly separate, formats. Bunching your responses in a single paragraph (with 10 point font, to boot) makes it very difficult to evaluate your work.
If you come up with a solution to this, please let me know. It's so bewildering when I have clearly laid out "Answer questions 1, 2, 3, and 4" and I get a five-paragraph essay in response!
This. This this this. And I feel kind of bad about it because I don't really want to say to them, "don't you dare find your own way to demonstrate this," but it takes so much longer to grade. I have had some luck lessening the occurrences of this by explaining in the assignment directions and in class that it takes me much longer to grade when they don't use the template, and could they please use the template as a courtesy to me.
Irrelevant story ahead.
Back in the dark ages (1981-82), my English comp prof told my class about a research study demonstrating that faculty gave typed papers a half-letter grade higher marks on average than handwritten papers. He speculated that the grade difference was due to unconscious tendency to perceive an essay to be better written when it was easier to read. He also volunteered that the library had typewriters available. He had a copy of the journal article on reserve in the library, which I signed out and read. Several weeks later, he mentioned that I was the first student in three years to sign that reserve article out, which in his opinion indicated I was headed for a faculty career.
What? I warned you it was irrelevant!
How many professors today, in 2020, would still accept a handwritten term paper?
Quote from: arcturus on August 28, 2020, 02:44:34 PM
Every semester I send class-wide announcements urging students to verify that the documents they upload to the LMS contain the content they would like to have considered for a grade. Every semester, however, numerous students submit blank documents. While it can be a stalling tactic, many of these documents are submitted well in advance of the deadline. So it appears to be a technology challenge, not a "I failed at time management" challenge.
I think it's very useful to emphasize "paste your content into the text box" as well. If they don't do it and the document's blank, it's on them for not following instructions. If they do it and the document's blank, you have verification that they had the work done on time.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 29, 2020, 01:30:45 AM
How many professors today, in 2020, would still accept a handwritten term paper?
I don't know about term papers, but I was in a department workshop about five years ago in which we worked with partners on developing expectations for lab reports. When it was time to report out, a lot of the other members of the department were shocked (and opposed to the suggestion) when my partner and I said we expected lab reports to be typed.
Quote from: Chemystery on August 29, 2020, 07:39:56 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 29, 2020, 01:30:45 AM
How many professors today, in 2020, would still accept a handwritten term paper?
I don't know about term papers, but I was in a department workshop about five years ago in which we worked with partners on developing expectations for lab reports. When it was time to report out, a lot of the other members of the department were shocked (and opposed to the suggestion) when my partner and I said we expected lab reports to be typed.
I would also expect lab reports to be typed. Especially if you have a class set of laptops, campus computer labs, and a library.
As a counter-point, I typically expect my students to hand-draw graphs and figures in lab. Why? One, we don't have a class set of computers or easy access to a printer. Two, the students have to think through what the graph should look like (what goes on the X axis? how to scale the Y axis? etc). Three, I know it's their own work and not an automatically generated graph from Excel (which can also be appallingly bad).
No, I would not accept a hand-written term paper. Why? I would have the students go through multiple drafts and include proper citations. I want it typed so it's easier to make comments & edits.
My LVL lit class got Zoom-bombed yesterday about 10 minutes into our class meeting. This, even when I'd set up an encrypted link, password, and waiting room--the 12-15 bombers broke through everything. Dammit.
My students got on their mics and told the bombers to get out, as I was individually removing them from the room. That endeared my students to me! Luckily, it was just a bunch of idiots making silly faces and talking gibberish. Still, I have at least two students who are underage, so happily there wasn't anything x-rated, but I'm not going to take the chance.
Back to Collaborate, much as I hate our iteration of it: people constantly get bounced out, can't see or hear the moderator, etc. But since the institution has heavily recommended its use, if things go south on Collaborate, I'll have a leg to stand on when I protest that trying to teach synchronously is not working.
We're supposed to be getting MS Teams, but like most things, they told us about this during Service Week and got everyone excited to use it--and then said, "We hope to have it ready for use by Spring." Um, yay?
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 29, 2020, 01:30:45 AM
How many professors today, in 2020, would still accept a handwritten term paper?
Very few. Most schools expect that student go through plagiarism detection. Even if the school does not require it, most professors do.
I had not thought of that. I have never used this myself, nor taught anywhere where its use is mandated (or even widely promoted). Anyone work somewhere where they are supposed to use it? How high would professor obedience to such mandates be?
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 02, 2020, 12:27:13 PM
I had not thought of that. I have never used this myself, nor taught anywhere where its use is mandated (or even widely promoted). Anyone work somewhere where they are supposed to use it? How high would professor obedience to such mandates be?
We use plagiarism detection regularly for lab reports since it will check against all previously submitted versions from other students in the course along with online sources. We tell the students before hand that we're going to use it. It's not mandated, just another tool to use or not at our discretion.
OK I can see this. My only concern would be creating an atmosphere of presumed guilt/ treat 'em like their cheaters, etc., that standardized use of such software tools implies. Or is this my elite slac background clouding my judgment wrt how many actual undergrad cheaters there are, taken as a whole, nationally?
We've been discussing Turnitin since I joined the old forum c. 2007 or so.
So it's evolved a bit, and the cheaters try to get ahead of it.
But it's hardly new, and students would hardly, at this point, be surprised to learn it's in use.
One can also just suss out copied text by hearing a false tone to its voice in context.
Which I've also done.
The jurisprudence of establishing a system by which one catches cheaters is complex, but it does include having a way of confirming or denying the accusation.
One could also use Sister Mary Anthroid's Black Binders o' Doom.....
M.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 02, 2020, 06:24:22 PM
OK I can see this. My only concern would be creating an atmosphere of presumed guilt/ treat 'em like their cheaters, etc., that standardized use of such software tools implies.
How is it different from requiring that your licence plate be visible? The vast majority of drivers aren't criminals, but that requirement benefits everyone by making it easier to catch the ones who are.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 02, 2020, 06:24:22 PM
OK I can see this. My only concern would be creating an atmosphere of presumed guilt/ treat 'em like their cheaters, etc., that standardized use of such software tools implies. Or is this my elite slac background clouding my judgment wrt how many actual undergrad cheaters there are, taken as a whole, nationally?
I bet there's a cheater in almost every general ed. class, on average, even at a SLAC (and I say this as someone who also attended a SLAC, though not an elite one). But beyond that, there are many other uses for the software. I allow students to see their reports as a teaching device. Besides catching cheaters, Turnitin is useful for lots of things: showing students that they have relied too heavily on a single source (for instance, in a paper requiring 4 sources where 3/4 of the paper exclusively deals with one), helping them see when paraphrased material has not been paraphrased adequately, reminding students to cite when they legitimately forgot, and--my personal favorite--letting students see if a revision is actually adequate. I had a professor who used Turnitin for mandatory revisions, and the visuals for students who just change single words are spectacular (and much easier to grade). One school at which I taught also subscribed to the grammar service, and it would pre-mark grammatical errors across student submissions. One in every ten was wrong, but it saved me tons of time regardless; I could just cancel the wrong or overwhelming ones and focus my own comments on content and structural issues.
AR.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 02, 2020, 11:11:26 AM
My LVL lit class got Zoom-bombed yesterday about 10 minutes into our class meeting. This, even when I'd set up an encrypted link, password, and waiting room--the 12-15 bombers broke through everything. Dammit.
My students got on their mics and told the bombers to get out, as I was individually removing them from the room. That endeared my students to me! Luckily, it was just a bunch of idiots making silly faces and talking gibberish. Still, I have at least two students who are underage, so happily there wasn't anything x-rated, but I'm not going to take the chance.
Back to Collaborate, much as I hate our iteration of it: people constantly get bounced out, can't see or hear the moderator, etc. But since the institution has heavily recommended its use, if things go south on Collaborate, I'll have a leg to stand on when I protest that trying to teach synchronously is not working.
We're supposed to be getting MS Teams, but like most things, they told us about this during Service Week and got everyone excited to use it--and then said, "We hope to have it ready for use by Spring." Um, yay?
My very limited experience with Microsoft Teams is that it tries to do a combination of what Slack and Zoom do, but in a more complicated, less user-friendly fashion.
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 08:41:29 AM
My very limited experience with Microsoft Teams is that it tries to do a combination of what Slack and Zoom do, but in a more complicated, less user-friendly fashion.
Spork, I haven't used it yet, but that's my fear. IMO, a lot of what MS comes out with tries to cash in on the work that other products have done, puts a twist on it to make it their own, and screws it up/amounts to an inferior final product.
The last thing on the planet my students (not to mention most of my colleagues, and I) need is something that's more complicated and less user-friendly. The basics--Word, Excel, and PPt--are fine, for the most part. I wish MS would just stick to those and improve them, instead of getting into everybody else's games.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 03, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Quote from: spork on September 03, 2020, 08:41:29 AM
My very limited experience with Microsoft Teams is that it tries to do a combination of what Slack and Zoom do, but in a more complicated, less user-friendly fashion.
Spork, I haven't used it yet, but that's my fear. IMO, a lot of what MS comes out with tries to cash in on the work that other products have done, puts a twist on it to make it their own, and screws it up/amounts to an inferior final product.
My understanding is that Microsoft bought Skype, which was peer-to-peer, so NOT needing any server, changed it to REQUIRE their servers, and put in into Teams. So, exactly as stated above.
Thanks for that, Marshwiggle--I thought I'd heard there was a connection to Skype but didn't dig into it. I wasn't a fan of Skype to start with, so. . . .
"I don't have enough time to watch the lecture videos because it is taking me so long to do the homework."
Kiana- by chance might the lecture videos. . . explain how to do the homework?
Quote from: mythbuster on September 04, 2020, 08:24:33 AM
Kiana- by chance might the lecture videos. . . explain how to do the homework?
*gasp* What a revolutionary idea!
Quote from: kiana on September 04, 2020, 06:30:45 AM
"I don't have enough time to watch the lecture videos because it is taking me so long to do the homework."
I recently took some online courses, which was a great opportunity to see things through a student's eyes. I quickly realized how much I disliked video lectures; where transcripts were available, I used those. As an instructor, I now provide transcripts of all videos that I make for my courses.
Quote from: sinenomine on September 04, 2020, 09:15:58 AM
Quote from: kiana on September 04, 2020, 06:30:45 AM
"I don't have enough time to watch the lecture videos because it is taking me so long to do the homework."
I recently took some online courses, which was a great opportunity to see things through a student's eyes. I quickly realized how much I disliked video lectures; where transcripts were available, I used those. As an instructor, I now provide transcripts of all videos that I make for my courses.
For some subjects maybe; for math they do really, really badly at reading it in text.
But if someone hated videos they could easily get the information they wanted by turning on CC and fastforwarding through.
Quote from: kiana on September 04, 2020, 11:55:40 AM
But if someone hated videos they could easily get the information they wanted by turning on CC and fastforwarding through.
This is how I do all my college-mandated idiotic training classes (one or two out of the 15+ we're required to take every year is worthwhile; the others, idiotic: "When speaking with a student in a wheelchair, do not put your foot on the arm of the wheelchair, as this might be seen as offensive"). I either do the closed-caption fast reading, or I let the audio run and work on something else, then take te quiz when the talking stops. (These are all set so that the video must run the entire allotted time before we can take the quiz.)
Blackboard (including Collaborate, but also simple things like "create thread" buttons in discussion boards and portions of my instructions for assignments randomly disappearing) is going to be the death of me.
This qualifies for Favorite Student Emails, but it has me banging my head on the desk. We are now in week 3 of the semester. I received this last night.
Good evening, professor, I can't access the blackboard content for this class.
Well. After not even logging on by the end of week 1, he received a message from me urging him to do so, with explicit instructions for logging into...ahem...Canvas and finding the course there. Thus the head-banging.
I did expect some confusion during the first week, because our school is transitioning from Blackboard to Canvas this fall, with some instructors sticking with Blackboard just for this semester. However, I told him exactly what to do to find the course, and still he cannot manage to do it. And it is week 3! How can he not have figured this out by now? All the other students have managed to do so.
Students attending remote online class meeting while working. Huh. interesting decision. That can't be good for learning. or for work!
Then again, I have to simultaneously teach and parent so maybe who am I to judge?
Somebody joined my remote class meeting today while *driving her car*.
How do you even do that?
M.
We have a faculty member who has joined the last two full-time faculty meetings while driving. I think our supervisor is not entirely impressed...
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 10, 2020, 05:42:07 PM
We have a faculty member who has joined the last two full-time faculty meetings while driving. I think our supervisor is not entirely impressed...
Sober, or DUI?
Quote from: Aster on September 10, 2020, 03:02:11 PM
Somebody joined my remote class meeting today while *driving her car*.
I've got that one on my bingo board too. My reply when Dear Student said they were in the car and couldn't get to the breakout rooms was, Ok I just hope you aren't driving. Oh I am. Uh. *Be safe*
I suppose they could have the phone plugged in to the car system and using voice control.
No. No. I am not resetting your deadlines so you can do the homeworks in your own time zone. Do them the night before. Everything is open for AT LEAST A WEEK and the late penalty is very generous.
No. No. I am not taking the photographs you sent via email and figuring out which problems they should be attached to. The late penalty is very generous.
Students email me to say they can't access the course Moodle, which just isn't showing up for them (it shows up for some, but not everyone).
I tell them to ask IT.
IT tells them they can't do anything about it's, it's all down to me because I never made the course visible.
Of course I made the course visible. It's been visible for weeks. Besides which, most students can see it--so the problem is not that I failed to make it visible. Ball's in your court, IT.
(We've been having lots of issues with Moodle this week, including incredibly slow loading speeds. But why are we having Moodle problems? Surely most/all of these issues could easily have been anticipated?)
I also had a student who joined our Zoom meeting while driving. I had to turn off the video of her myself. We don't need to see that!
First exam of the semester today in Microbiology for Nurses and Public Health majors. So kinda relevant and maybe important to know right now? There is only so far that I can dilute this down, and I thought I had. So far the high is an 80 and there are waaay too many scores below 40.
It's going to be a long semester.
Most of the people in my remote classes this week turned in their homework. 90% or higher submission rates. That's pretty decent.
...except for one class section, which only has a 75% submission rate.
These classes are basically all identical to one another in pretty much every way. Instructions, postings, CMS layouts, the works.
This 75% class is upsetting my groove.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 05, 2020, 10:10:55 AM
Quote from: kiana on September 04, 2020, 11:55:40 AM
But if someone hated videos they could easily get the information they wanted by turning on CC and fastforwarding through.
This is how I do all my college-mandated idiotic training classes (one or two out of the 15+ we're required to take every year is worthwhile; the others, idiotic: "When speaking with a student in a wheelchair, do not put your foot on the arm of the wheelchair, as this might be seen as offensive"). I either do the closed-caption fast reading, or I let the audio run and work on something else, then take te quiz when the talking stops. (These are all set so that the video must run the entire allotted time before we can take the quiz.)
Your mandatory videos just run for the full time? We have a new management team who were on to the ability to fast forward or letting video run into the background. Thus, the new mandatory trainings on the same topics have interactive parts where the buttons to go forward to the next two-minute video don't appear until you have successfully interacted. The two-minute videos mostly read the words on the screen to us and again, the button for the next video/interactive part doesn't appear until the video finishes.
Good rules follower that I am, I wouldn't mind so much except it's so much slower than I can read, even while taking notes on the most important points that will matter to my job. In addition, the interactive parts mostly didn't let me explore all the paths and answers to really learn the material.
I didn't try it on the training videos, but many informational videos from my employer will stop playing if one clicks away from the browser to do something else, even taking typed notes from the video.
Mythbuster (and everyone), I would make it an explicit point in the syllabus that if they have Zoom on while driving, they fail the day's assignment, or whatever you can fail them on. It is dangerous both to the student and to others on the road. Please do not let them get away with this. It is absolutely unacceptable.
Quote from: polly_mer on September 11, 2020, 09:55:04 PM
Your mandatory videos just run for the full time? We have a new management team who were on to the ability to fast forward or letting video run into the background. Thus, the new mandatory trainings on the same topics have interactive parts where the buttons to go forward to the next two-minute video don't appear until you have successfully interacted. The two-minute videos mostly read the words on the screen to us and again, the button for the next video/interactive part doesn't appear until the video finishes.
Good rules follower that I am, I wouldn't mind so much except it's so much slower than I can read, even while taking notes on the most important points that will matter to my job. In addition, the interactive parts mostly didn't let me explore all the paths and answers to really learn the material.
I didn't try it on the training videos, but many informational videos from my employer will stop playing if one clicks away from the browser to do something else, even taking typed notes from the video.
Yeah, that's NOT what I'm trying to do. I hate that shit as much as everyone else. If they already know this part of the class AND are able to do the problems correctly using proper notation and they want to do it themselves and just fast-forward through looking for the couple of vocabulary items I asked for, idgaf.
It's the people that are guessing and pattern-matching their way to the correct answer and then giving me garbage on the handwritten items instead of just. copying. the. examples. that are frustrating me.
Ugh. Student just emails me to say that hu hasn't bought the text yet. Um, we're in the fourth week of class and you're telling me this now? I know the world is basically on fire (well on the West coast in the U.S.) and we're in the middle of a pandemic, but why wait until the fourth week to tell me?
Student should be fine though. Intro Physics hasn't changed in a long time, so really any Calc-based text is fine. I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
How do you and others cope with the workload, especially if you are teaching online for the first time?
Quote from: Anon1787 on September 13, 2020, 08:20:42 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
How do you and others cope with the workload, especially if you are teaching online for the first time?
I have taught online in the past, maybe 2 classes at a time- six is new for me. So, I am familiar with the interface, posting content, creating content, etc.
Here, most faculty have 5-6 (we focus on teaching not research) in the fall unless you can get a course release. How am I coping with it? Hmm, that's a good question. Right now, I've been trying to schedule specific hours for 'teaching' so that everything doesn't blur together (I have no weekends). Talking to other faculty helps. Most people I know are overwhelmed.
A student just tried in a response paper to convince me that there's a direct and obvious line connecting Anne Bradstreet's "To My Dear and Loving Husband" and Cardi B's "W.A.P."
I'm sure Mrs. Bradstreet is spinning in her grave, and I'm ready to join her, since I've now apparently seen everything.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 08:31:41 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on September 13, 2020, 08:20:42 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
How do you and others cope with the workload, especially if you are teaching online for the first time?
I have taught online in the past, maybe 2 classes at a time- six is new for me. So, I am familiar with the interface, posting content, creating content, etc.
Here, most faculty have 5-6 (we focus on teaching not research) in the fall unless you can get a course release. How am I coping with it? Hmm, that's a good question. Right now, I've been trying to schedule specific hours for 'teaching' so that everything doesn't blur together (I have no weekends). Talking to other faculty helps. Most people I know are overwhelmed.
I have been bundling my response to emails about the same topic from multiple students. E.g., putting an announcement about course exams on the LMS instead of replying to every student who has some kind of test-taking accommodation.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 16, 2020, 02:19:40 PM
A student just tried in a response paper to convince me that there's a direct and obvious line connecting Anne Bradstreet's "To My Dear and Loving Husband" and Cardi B's "W.A.P."
I'm sure Mrs. Bradstreet is spinning in her grave, and I'm ready to join her, since I've now apparently seen everything.
I don't know Cardi B's piece, but I recite Anne Bradstreet's poem--a favorite--weekly in summers when there is no virus about to prevent me, at her father's homesite (it's too noisy to be heard well, where she and Simon lived).
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 16, 2020, 08:44:25 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 16, 2020, 02:19:40 PM
A student just tried in a response paper to convince me that there's a direct and obvious line connecting Anne Bradstreet's "To My Dear and Loving Husband" and Cardi B's "W.A.P."
I'm sure Mrs. Bradstreet is spinning in her grave, and I'm ready to join her, since I've now apparently seen everything.
I don't know Cardi B's piece, but I recite Anne Bradstreet's poem--a favorite--weekly in summers when there is no virus about to prevent me, at her father's homesite (it's too noisy to be heard well, where she and Simon lived).
M.
You probably would walk around reciting Cardi B's; at least not around other people.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 17, 2020, 04:53:53 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 16, 2020, 08:44:25 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 16, 2020, 02:19:40 PM
A student just tried in a response paper to convince me that there's a direct and obvious line connecting Anne Bradstreet's "To My Dear and Loving Husband" and Cardi B's "W.A.P."
I'm sure Mrs. Bradstreet is spinning in her grave, and I'm ready to join her, since I've now apparently seen everything.
I don't know Cardi B's piece, but I recite Anne Bradstreet's poem--a favorite--weekly in summers when there is no virus about to prevent me, at her father's homesite (it's too noisy to be heard well, where she and Simon lived).
M.
You probably would walk around reciting Cardi B's; at least not around other people.
Do you mean "would"? Or "wouldn't"?
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 17, 2020, 05:21:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 17, 2020, 04:53:53 AM
Quote from: mamselle on September 16, 2020, 08:44:25 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 16, 2020, 02:19:40 PM
A student just tried in a response paper to convince me that there's a direct and obvious line connecting Anne Bradstreet's "To My Dear and Loving Husband" and Cardi B's "W.A.P."
I'm sure Mrs. Bradstreet is spinning in her grave, and I'm ready to join her, since I've now apparently seen everything.
I don't know Cardi B's piece, but I recite Anne Bradstreet's poem--a favorite--weekly in summers when there is no virus about to prevent me, at her father's homesite (it's too noisy to be heard well, where she and Simon lived).
M.
You probably would walk around reciting Cardi B's; at least not around other people.
Do you mean "would"? Or "wouldn't"?
M.
Sorry;
wouldn't. (Unless you were trying to provoke reactions...)
Well, for starters, my 18th c. character wouldn't know about Cardi B, anyway, so there's that....
M.
Maybe this should be in the emails thread. These are all emails. But they induce head-banging, so there's that, too.
This week our university has been open, remote, and closed, all on different days, but never with more than 8 hours' warning (administration emails dept. chairs about the next day's teaching status each afternoon, and then the chairs have to forward the emails on to us). This has been all kinds of exhausting and frustrating.
Also, I am substituting for a colleague on extended sick leave. She has a strong "no late work" policy posted on the syllabus, on every assignment sheet, and on every CMS page. (I don't like the policy as stated, but that's a different issue).
9 a.m. yesterday, Student email [paraphrased]: I uploaded my paper [due at midnight] to the CMS last night at 10 p.m., but when I double-checked this morning, it was gone! Can I email you my paper now?
I checked the course logs. Student was not logged into my colleague's CMS between 6 p.m. the night of the deadline and five minutes before student emailed me. IT verifies that the student was not logged in to the CMS for any course at the entire university between those times. IT is very very confident that the logs were not malfunctioning yesterday. This is now going to be lots of fun paperwork for me, and probably a huge fuss from my very entitled student, who already hates me and the course policies, because wearing a mask on one's face, especially covering one's nose, is so UNFAIR and UNPLEASANT even though it is both a state and university requirement.
---
12 noon email (same day): Email from a parent wanting to know why I haven't responded to her child's email from two days ago (it's a "getting to know you" assignment that most students did on the same day, so I have over 100 of these to answer) and telling me that her child has been unable to access parts of the CMS because of the permissions settings on child's laptop. What am *I* going to do about it, she wonders?
Answer: FERPA, thank heavens. And I did email the student directly, recommending IT services for the laptop issue.
I think I have finally put out this morning's new fires, so I am going to write for a few hours to clear my head. I can't do parents on top of all the rest of this semester's crazy; that's the biggest reason I left secondary education.
AR.
This is sort of a blanket head-bang based on the trajectory of most of my classes.
I've seen an uptick in plagiarism -- more cases sent to the Dean's Office in 4 weeks than I've had in the last 4 semesters combined. Even though the assignment sheet says "use book and notes, but no internet sources," students are just copying (bad) answers from online sources.
I've seen an uptick in "I don't have the textbook yet" type emails. Still. One student even wanted me to delay the first exam because she hasn't bought the book yet.
In my synchronous online courses, I've seen attendance problems. Generally 12 out of 35 attend each meeting.
The kids who don't come, don't have books, and/or plagiarize are the ones complaining about their exam grades. One student just now told me "you must have graded it wrong."
My F2F and hybrid classes don't have these problems at all.
I had a student today who emailed after class to apologize for the background noise from his phone (I had to mute him mid presentation). The reason why- he was on his phone, in a car, with a bunch of other people at the time.
I'm sure his retention of the material was fabulous.
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I had a student today who emailed after class to apologize for the background noise from his phone (I had to mute him mid presentation). The reason why- he was on his phone, in a car, with a bunch of other people at the time.
At least he was trying to be in class. I think we are going to have a HUGE problem with online learning simply because it doesn't feel "real" compared to an in person class.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
It might have been more inclusive to have females like Marie Cure or Hedy Lamarr in the list with their notable discoveries.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 18, 2020, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I had a student today who emailed after class to apologize for the background noise from his phone (I had to mute him mid presentation). The reason why- he was on his phone, in a car, with a bunch of other people at the time.
At least he was trying to be in class. I think we are going to have a HUGE problem with online learning simply because it doesn't feel "real" compared to an in person class.
Yep. Mine are complaining that they want to be more engaged, but their cameras are off, their mics are muted and they are driving, doing dishes, whatever instead of participating in discussion or breakout activities.
Mamselle, Hedy Lamar, Marie Curie etc did not contribute to Microbiology. Specifically, this was the unit on Germ Theory. So this is Pasteur, Koch, Lister etc. As much as I would love to highlight a woman, there just isn't one. I figured I was acknowledging the issue. My students are so resistant to learning the names of people as it is that I think they would also balk at adding extras such as Noguchi, who discovered syphilis for the sake of increased diversity.
Sorry, I didn't see a reference to Micro.
Noguchi sounds like a good start, though.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 18, 2020, 06:19:22 PM
Sorry, I didn't see a reference to Micro.
Noguchi sounds like a good start, though.
M.
Fanny Hesse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Hesse)? Alice Catherine Evans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Catherine_Evans)? Lady Montagu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Mary_Wortley_Montagu)?
Dear students: when you state that you will use "credible sources" for your project, this is a clear indication to me that you have not started working on this project at all. This defeats the whole point of providing scaffolding assignments to assist you in completing a long term project. Also, let me be specific: if the prompt requests a timeline with dates, you should provide a timeline, with dates. Merely stating that "I will complete the project using credible sources by the due date" is not an adequate response.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
I find the phrase "dead old white guy" offensive. A similar phrase was discussed on another thread some months ago. Why not state "match the person with their scientific discovery"?
If you are a Hispanic female, do you want to be remembered as a "dead old Hispanic female?" If you had a beloved father who reached old age, would you want him remembered as a "dead old____guy?"
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
Ugh. Student just emails me to say that hu hasn't bought the text yet. Um, we're in the fourth week of class and you're telling me this now? I know the world is basically on fire (well on the West coast in the U.S.) and we're in the middle of a pandemic, but why wait until the fourth week to tell me?
Student should be fine though. Intro Physics hasn't changed in a long time, so really any Calc-based text is fine. I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
Would the OpenStax book do the trick? Free to download the pdf or read it through a web browser.
https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-1
I don't know how good the physics book is, but I know of some chemistry departments that use the general chemistry book and consider it to be similar in quality to print texts from major publishers.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
I would probably avoid that wording.
Instead, I might put an explanatory two or three sentence preamble acknowledging that the reason that most of the notable scientists and scientific discoveries in microbiology (and most other scientific disciplines) were white males was that they were the only ones allowed to participate in science, etc. Then just ask the matching question without the embedded commentary.
That way, you wouldn't be asking students to decode the message of the prompt. We have all heard that terminology before and automatically read it as shorthand for acknowledging historical (as well as current) inequities. However, students may or may not be as familiar with the idea or the way we use the phrase.
But perhaps you have already had that discussion with your class in more detail and the student who took offense was just not paying attention...
Quote from: Cheerful on September 20, 2020, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
I find the phrase "dead old white guy" offensive. A similar phrase was discussed on another thread some months ago. Why not state "match the person with their scientific discovery"?
If you are a Hispanic female, do you want to be remembered as a "dead old Hispanic female?" If you had a beloved father who reached old age, would you want him remembered as a "dead old____guy?"
Ah, it's no worse than if the Nazis had said "Match the Jew with their scientific discovery."
It serves the same purpose....
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 20, 2020, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Cheerful on September 20, 2020, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 18, 2020, 02:12:09 PM
I was also informed today that one of my students took offence to the question prompt: "Match the dead old white guy with their scientific discovery."
Huh? I figured this was the opposite of offensive- it acknowledges the lack of diversity in the early days of the field.
I find the phrase "dead old white guy" offensive. A similar phrase was discussed on another thread some months ago. Why not state "match the person with their scientific discovery"?
If you are a Hispanic female, do you want to be remembered as a "dead old Hispanic female?" If you had a beloved father who reached old age, would you want him remembered as a "dead old____guy?"
Ah, it's no worse than if the Nazis had said "Match the Jew with their scientific discovery."
It serves the same purpose....
The Nazis actually would have said "Match the Jew with their
Jewish scientific discovery". Hence, the contemporary equivalent would be "Match the white man with his
white scientific discovery.
Quote from: Biologist_ on September 20, 2020, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 13, 2020, 07:41:28 PM
Ugh. Student just emails me to say that hu hasn't bought the text yet. Um, we're in the fourth week of class and you're telling me this now? I know the world is basically on fire (well on the West coast in the U.S.) and we're in the middle of a pandemic, but why wait until the fourth week to tell me?
Student should be fine though. Intro Physics hasn't changed in a long time, so really any Calc-based text is fine. I've been inundated by student email all day, so I suppose I'm just grumpy. Teaching six classes online doesn't help either...
Would the OpenStax book do the trick? Free to download the pdf or read it through a web browser.
https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-1
I don't know how good the physics book is, but I know of some chemistry departments that use the general chemistry book and consider it to be similar in quality to print texts from major publishers.
Thanks. At the time, I was overwhelmed (well, still am) and frustrated. The student had another book that should work, so the issue was resolved.
I have no words. Granted, I'm pretty frustrated at the moment. Astronomy lab report. Student has to answer questions about objects in the sky using a flow chart (in order to identify the object).
When you answer 'yes' to a question, you either have one more question to answer, or you're done. What does the student do? Student goes to the opposite side of the flow chart (after answering yes) and then proceeds to answer 'no' to the remaining questions. Did the student identify the object correctly?
Student #2 is supposed to take make angular distance measurements (hand in different positions) of objects with their hands in the pics. What does student send me? Pictures of the objects, but no hand.
Banging. My. Head.
This seems pertinent:
It is the week before midterms here.
All the textbooks seem to be rentals. (I tried to buy a copy of the book before I started this job so I could prep my syllabus, and it was impossible to purchase one.)
This year, all textbooks were pre-bundled by student number, and students drove through a car line to have those bundles dropped into their cars.
Yesterday, a student showed up in one of my classes for the first time. He did not have the book. He also informed me that he had not "bought" the book. Given this structure, this likely also means he has none of his other books for any other classes either.
AR.
He's waiting for the elves and fairies to drop it off through the ventilator system the way Santa Claus does Christmas gifts down the chimney.
Modernized expectations, and all that...
M.
Not entirely a bang, because I actually found this really funny, although I was poleaxed for a second when it happened:
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
Must be an esports major! (Interthreaduality, see Adrian - liberal arts.)
Quote from: Cheerful on September 22, 2020, 06:13:30 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
Must be an esports major! (Interthreaduality, see Adrian - liberal arts.)
The Digital Native strikes again!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Not entirely a bang, because I actually found this really funny, although I was poleaxed for a second when it happened:
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
This is the first I've heard of this game. How interesting. I did manage to get there, but I had to skip the links about pronunciation and so on. There was a bit of a loop in which an IPA pronunciation link sent me to the IPA page which sent me to linguistics over and over again. It's like an emergent wiki version of the Collatz conjecture. I wonder if it's an accident that this result leads to an entry about knowledge in a wiki that is about storing knowledge. If there were a different wiki of a comparable complexiity--such as TV Tropes---would all paths end up leading to the entry for 'television' or something? Or is it an accident, and if Wikipedia were regrown from scratch we'd find that all paths end up leading to some similarly well-linked article, like 'language' or 'biology' or something, and it's just an accident that philosophy specifically ends up the target in this universe?
This is the first I've heard of getting to philosophy through Wikipedia links. Wikipedia is my go-to first stop for general knowledge and I don't think I've ever ended up on a philosophy page by following links unless I started on a directly related page.
I suppose this could be on the email thread, but I'm banging my head over it.
The first major assignment for one of my classes (graduate level) is due today. I've been fielding emails over the last 48 hours (the task requires an integration of several skills, so I expect questions). However, last night, I received an email that essentially asked if I was grading on accuracy. Umm, yes?
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2020, 01:47:29 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Not entirely a bang, because I actually found this really funny, although I was poleaxed for a second when it happened:
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
This is the first I've heard of this game. How interesting. I did manage to get there, but I had to skip the links about pronunciation and so on. There was a bit of a loop in which an IPA pronunciation link sent me to the IPA page which sent me to linguistics over and over again. It's like an emergent wiki version of the Collatz conjecture. I wonder if it's an accident that this result leads to an entry about knowledge in a wiki that is about storing knowledge. If there were a different wiki of a comparable complexiity--such as TV Tropes---would all paths end up leading to the entry for 'television' or something? Or is it an accident, and if Wikipedia were regrown from scratch we'd find that all paths end up leading to some similarly well-linked article, like 'language' or 'biology' or something, and it's just an accident that philosophy specifically ends up the target in this universe?
Yeah, you have to click on the first link that's not a footnote, in italics, or in brackets. Pronunciation stuff is typically in brackets.
The explanation I've seen is twofold. Partly, it's because philosophy is more or less the ur-discipline for most of the academy, and its subject matter is highly general and highly fundamental stuff, so there's always something philosophical in the vicinity of any subject.
More importantly, it's just got to do with Wikipedia's architecture. I don't remember how it's structured, but it's something to the effect that the structure prioritizes as top-level content the kinds of very general subject pages that are the bread and butter of philosophy (like 'knowledge' or 'logic', etc.). (Ironically, the logic page sends you on an infinite loop now. It didn't used to.)
There's another neat structural feature, although I can't find the confirmation of it any more: from any given wikipedia page, you can get to philosophy (or maybe it's a topic in philosophy?) within something like seven clicks (not nevessarily by clicking on the first link each time, though).
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2020, 01:47:29 AM
This is the first I've heard of this game. How interesting. I did manage to get there, but I had to skip the links about pronunciation and so on. There was a bit of a loop in which an IPA pronunciation link sent me to the IPA page which sent me to linguistics over and over again. It's like an emergent wiki version of the Collatz conjecture. I wonder if it's an accident that this result leads to an entry about knowledge in a wiki that is about storing knowledge. If there were a different wiki of a comparable complexiity--such as TV Tropes---would all paths end up leading to the entry for 'television' or something? Or is it an accident, and if Wikipedia were regrown from scratch we'd find that all paths end up leading to some similarly well-linked article, like 'language' or 'biology' or something, and it's just an accident that philosophy specifically ends up the target in this universe?
From TV Tropes I got to a page that compares TV Tropes to Wikipedia....https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/ThereIsNoSuchThingAsNotability
I tried it with something really non-academic: Kermit the Frog. I get stuck in a loop between fiction, non-fiction and document. Worked like a charm with Louis Pasteur though.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 24, 2020, 06:39:57 AM
The first major assignment for one of my classes (graduate level) is due today. I've been fielding emails over the last 48 hours (the task requires an integration of several skills, so I expect questions). However, last night, I received an email that essentially asked if I was grading on accuracy. Umm, yes?
Grading on accuracy? During a pandemic? That's mean!
Graduate level? Wow.
Quote from: Cheerful on September 24, 2020, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 24, 2020, 06:39:57 AM
The first major assignment for one of my classes (graduate level) is due today. I've been fielding emails over the last 48 hours (the task requires an integration of several skills, so I expect questions). However, last night, I received an email that essentially asked if I was grading on accuracy. Umm, yes?
Grading on accuracy? During a pandemic? That's mean!
Graduate level? Wow.
I usually put off accuracy till at least the end of the term.. :-)
Quote from: mythbuster on September 24, 2020, 01:39:33 PM
I tried it with something really non-academic: Kermit the Frog. I get stuck in a loop between fiction, non-fiction and document. Worked like a charm with Louis Pasteur though.
Hehe
I suppose 3% of entries is actually quite a lot of entries.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 24, 2020, 07:24:20 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 24, 2020, 01:47:29 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 22, 2020, 05:43:29 PM
Not entirely a bang, because I actually found this really funny, although I was poleaxed for a second when it happened:
Last week was the first week of my intro to metaphysics and epistemology, and the topic was 'What is philosophy?'. Among other things, I introduced students (asynchronously) to the Wikipedia philosophy game ([urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/.../Wikipedia:Getting_to_Philosophy]you know the one[/url]). In their weekly quiz, I had them play two rounds of the game for pre-selected Wikipedia pages.
In today's live Q&A, the first question was: "I don't get it. How do I download the game?"
This is the first I've heard of this game. How interesting. I did manage to get there, but I had to skip the links about pronunciation and so on. There was a bit of a loop in which an IPA pronunciation link sent me to the IPA page which sent me to linguistics over and over again. It's like an emergent wiki version of the Collatz conjecture. I wonder if it's an accident that this result leads to an entry about knowledge in a wiki that is about storing knowledge. If there were a different wiki of a comparable complexiity--such as TV Tropes---would all paths end up leading to the entry for 'television' or something? Or is it an accident, and if Wikipedia were regrown from scratch we'd find that all paths end up leading to some similarly well-linked article, like 'language' or 'biology' or something, and it's just an accident that philosophy specifically ends up the target in this universe?
Yeah, you have to click on the first link that's not a footnote, in italics, or in brackets. Pronunciation stuff is typically in brackets.
The explanation I've seen is twofold. Partly, it's because philosophy is more or less the ur-discipline for most of the academy, and its subject matter is highly general and highly fundamental stuff, so there's always something philosophical in the vicinity of any subject.
More importantly, it's just got to do with Wikipedia's architecture. I don't remember how it's structured, but it's something to the effect that the structure prioritizes as top-level content the kinds of very general subject pages that are the bread and butter of philosophy (like 'knowledge' or 'logic', etc.). (Ironically, the logic page sends you on an infinite loop now. It didn't used to.)
There's another neat structural feature, although I can't find the confirmation of it any more: from any given wikipedia page, you can get to philosophy (or maybe it's a topic in philosophy?) within something like seven clicks (not nevessarily by clicking on the first link each time, though).
I found this interesting video on it in case anyone else is interested:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0418hfr
Quote from: Cheerful on September 24, 2020, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 24, 2020, 06:39:57 AM
The first major assignment for one of my classes (graduate level) is due today. I've been fielding emails over the last 48 hours (the task requires an integration of several skills, so I expect questions). However, last night, I received an email that essentially asked if I was grading on accuracy. Umm, yes?
Grading on accuracy? During a pandemic? That's mean!
Graduate level? Wow.
To be fair, there are things I don't grade on accuracy, like discussion posts. I just grade them on whether the student appears to have done the reading. If they seem like they have, but have misunderstood it, that's still full credit.
Quote from: Caracal on September 25, 2020, 05:08:51 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on September 24, 2020, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 24, 2020, 06:39:57 AM
The first major assignment for one of my classes (graduate level) is due today. I've been fielding emails over the last 48 hours (the task requires an integration of several skills, so I expect questions). However, last night, I received an email that essentially asked if I was grading on accuracy. Umm, yes?
Grading on accuracy? During a pandemic? That's mean!
Graduate level? Wow.
To be fair, there are things I don't grade on accuracy, like discussion posts. I just grade them on whether the student appears to have done the reading. If they seem like they have, but have misunderstood it, that's still full credit.
Yes, I can appreciate that. I have a couple classes with assignments like that--journal entries, mini reading responses, weekly application questions--as long as it's good faith effort, you are generally going to get full credit; it's a minimal part of the grade total. This is not that assignment. It's worth 10% of the grade, has serious scaffolding, and there are objectively correct/incorrect answers. I've just never had a grad student ask me if accuracy mattered before, especially in this class. But, remote teaching is a new game, maybe I wasn't as explicit as usual. I answered the question as non-snarkily as possible.
I'm also getting questions (again grad level) about why I don't have participation credit in my classes. Umm, because coming to class prepared and being actively engaged in the class is expected. Again, I know there are course/discipline differences and I've got a rep as a hard-a**, but I just can't believe that most grad courses in this Basketweaving subfield are assigning participation points.
I have participation points in my one graduate seminar course I teach. I rationalize it as the "carrot and stick" model of rewards. Graduate students ought to attend class, stay actively engaged, and ask thoughtful questions. Most of them are good participants. But bad behavior is contagious. One person trying to "multitask" by answering emails/texting/whatever leads to more folks being disengaged.
I'm really worried that teaching the class online will only make this worse . . . .
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 25, 2020, 12:24:19 PM
I have participation points in my one graduate seminar course I teach. I rationalize it as the "carrot and stick" model of rewards. Graduate students ought to attend class, stay actively engaged, and ask thoughtful questions. Most of them are good participants. But bad behavior is contagious. One person trying to "multitask" by answering emails/texting/whatever leads to more folks being disengaged.
I'm really worried that teaching the class online will only make this worse . . . .
OK, well maybe I need to rethink. Thanks for the perspective.
I will say that some of my classes have actually been more participatory/engaged online (even the dreaded methods class) because they are using the chat feature to ask questions/given examples/make comments/send me cat emojis in response to my attempts at jokes. They are also using the break-out rooms effectively, especially if there is a task to complete. I would even be willing to continue online for some of my classes after we are cleared to go back to in-person, except for the one class that has no business being taught online, but we are doing it anyway.
I honestly wish I could tell students how they are wasting my time and their time when they cheat. Student copies and pastes from multiple websites. So, now I have to do paperwork and waste my time writing this crap up. Student wasted hu's time by copying and hoping that I wouldn't notice.
I have a student who did well on the exam but does none of the chapter activities and rarely attends our synchronous class meetings. This is a weird profile so I'm pondering what direction I want to go with it. Have you seen this and what did you do to follow-up?
- It's a small class at a small college. We've communicated and I know they're having a hard time with remote learning. I've already notified support people that the student is off track.
- I checked and you could pay $50 (on sale!) for the textbook test bank. So that's a temptation. The student's essay answer though doesn't match the test bank and isn't lifted from the textbook (exam is open book open note with more than enough time).
- I've considered that maybe they had someone else take the exam for them. We don't have remote proctoring. I use the activities and participation in the meetings to confirm that the real students are making progress. I don't have that data for this student.
- Maybe they did the activities but couldn't figure out how to submit them through the phone app.
- Maybe they are repeating the class and used old materials. Technically that's cheating too because I did not teach the Spring class.The chapter activities and participation (synchronously or asynchronous options) are also 50% of the grade so they're currently failing.
- They got lucky.
- Maybe the chapter activities are actually distractions and I just overloaded and confused the other students. Ha-ha
Thanks for your thoughts
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 26, 2020, 10:37:41 AM
I honestly wish I could tell students how they are wasting my time and their time when they cheat. Student copies and pastes from multiple websites. So, now I have to do paperwork and waste my time writing this crap up. Student wasted hu's time by copying and hoping that I wouldn't notice.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 26, 2020, 10:37:41 AM
I honestly wish I could tell students how they are wasting my time and their time when they cheat. Student copies and pastes from multiple websites. So, now I have to do paperwork and waste my time writing this crap up. Student wasted hu's time by copying and hoping that I wouldn't notice.
I do explicitly tell them that. I'm not sure it registers with the ones who need to hear it.
I also tell them that if they put as much effort into following the instructions and writing a paper as they did into covering up the cheating, they'd do better (and probably even get a bare pass, at least in some cases!). But that, too, goes largely unheard in the relevant quarters.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 24, 2020, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 24, 2020, 01:39:33 PM
I tried it with something really non-academic: Kermit the Frog. I get stuck in a loop between fiction, non-fiction and document. Worked like a charm with Louis Pasteur though.
Hehe
I suppose 3% of entries is actually quite a lot of entries.
Yes, 3% of 6M English articles is 180 000.
By clicking on the first link in the Wikipedia article, I did get to philosophy eventually for nearly everything I tried this week. However, the average was about 30 clicks.
There's no logical reason I would have clicked on most of the first links that get quickly to philosophy because they were mostly big, broad categories like information, knowledge, science, or mathematics. The more an article was written like an old-school encyclopedia article, the more likely that the first link was one of the big, broad categories that no one should need to look up instead of being something possibly new or hardly recognized that is worth clicking to learn more.
In today's help session, a student asked for help figuring out where the brackets go when we translate sentences from English to our formal language. I explained that they're used to disambiguate, and showed them how to do it. I then figured: what the hell, let's do a really tough one. So I came up with an inordinately complex sentence in English on the fly, and proceeded to show the class how to translate it, with all my tips and tricks. This took... ages. I must have spent at least ten minutes on it.
Only to discover, at the end, that it wasn't well-formed in English to begin with because it was missing an entire disjunct.
D'oh! *headdesk*
Para, do you mind sharing with us the model English sentence you came up with, and why you think it was a malformed English one? I am not sure a sentence missing a 'disjunct', if we are using the term correctly, is necessarily a malformed sentence, but I would be interested in your sentence, and why you think it was badly formed? Also, for extra emphasis, the French translation you offered?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 05, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
Para, do you mind sharing with us the model English sentence you came up with, and why you think it was a malformed English one? I am not sure a sentence missing a 'disjunct', if we are using the term correctly, is necessarily a malformed sentence, but I would be interested in your sentence, and why you think it was badly formed? Also, for extra emphasis, the French translation you offered?
Just to be clear, we're translating into a
formal language (in this case, propositional logic), not a
natural language. So, from English into letters and symbols.
When you introduce a disjunction, it should have at least two disjuncts, otherwise it isn't a disjunction. This one contained a properly-formed nested disjunction, but no second disjunct for the main disjunction. Total bozo move on my part.
I don't have the sentence any more, and I don't remember it at all, but imagine something along the lines of "Either Argle goes to the grocery store if Bargle doesn't and either Cargle needs sugar or Dargle needs plums". It was much longer and had many more sub-clauses, but the effect was the same. It needs another disjunct after the large conditional.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 05, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
Para, do you mind sharing with us the model English sentence you came up with, and why you think it was a malformed English one? I am not sure a sentence missing a 'disjunct', if we are using the term correctly, is necessarily a malformed sentence, but I would be interested in your sentence, and why you think it was badly formed? Also, for extra emphasis, the French translation you offered?
Just to be clear, we're translating into a formal language (in this case, propositional logic), not a natural language. So, from English into letters and symbols.
When you introduce a disjunction, it should have at least two disjuncts, otherwise it isn't a disjunction. This one contained a properly-formed nested disjunction, but no second disjunct for the main disjunction. Total bozo move on my part.
I don't have the sentence any more, and I don't remember it at all, but imagine something along the lines of "Either Argle goes to the grocery store if Bargle doesn't and either Cargle needs sugar or Dargle needs plums". It was much longer and had many more sub-clauses, but the effect was the same. It needs another disjunct after the large conditional.
I'd like to sign up for your class, please! As an undergrad, I would have found the translation in to a formal language absolutely intriguing.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 05, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
Para, do you mind sharing with us the model English sentence you came up with, and why you think it was a malformed English one? I am not sure a sentence missing a 'disjunct', if we are using the term correctly, is necessarily a malformed sentence, but I would be interested in your sentence, and why you think it was badly formed? Also, for extra emphasis, the French translation you offered?
Just to be clear, we're translating into a formal language (in this case, propositional logic), not a natural language. So, from English into letters and symbols.
When you introduce a disjunction, it should have at least two disjuncts, otherwise it isn't a disjunction. This one contained a properly-formed nested disjunction, but no second disjunct for the main disjunction. Total bozo move on my part.
I don't have the sentence any more, and I don't remember it at all, but imagine something along the lines of "Either Argle goes to the grocery store if Bargle doesn't and either Cargle needs sugar or Dargle needs plums". It was much longer and had many more sub-clauses, but the effect was the same. It needs another disjunct after the large conditional.
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 05, 2020, 06:39:19 PM
Para, do you mind sharing with us the model English sentence you came up with, and why you think it was a malformed English one? I am not sure a sentence missing a 'disjunct', if we are using the term correctly, is necessarily a malformed sentence, but I would be interested in your sentence, and why you think it was badly formed? Also, for extra emphasis, the French translation you offered?
Just to be clear, we're translating into a formal language (in this case, propositional logic), not a natural language. So, from English into letters and symbols.
When you introduce a disjunction, it should have at least two disjuncts, otherwise it isn't a disjunction. This one contained a properly-formed nested disjunction, but no second disjunct for the main disjunction. Total bozo move on my part.
I don't have the sentence any more, and I don't remember it at all, but imagine something along the lines of "Either Argle goes to the grocery store if Bargle doesn't and either Cargle needs sugar or Dargle needs plums". It was much longer and had many more sub-clauses, but the effect was the same. It needs another disjunct after the large conditional.
Reminds me of the computer programmer joke:
Wife: When you are at the grocery store, please buy a loaf of bread. And if they have those eggs I like, get a dozen.
Husband comes home with 12 loaves of bread and 0 eggs.
Wife: Uh, why did you buy 12 loaves of bread?
Husband: They have those eggs you like.
Quote from: traductio on October 06, 2020, 10:24:30 AM
I'd like to sign up for your class, please! As an undergrad, I would have found the translation in to a formal language absolutely intriguing.
I can always send you the links to my terribad YouTube lectures. =p
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 06, 2020, 12:16:56 PM
Reminds me of the computer programmer joke:
Wife: When you are at the grocery store, please buy a loaf of bread. And if they have those eggs I like, get a dozen.
Husband comes home with 12 loaves of bread and 0 eggs.
Wife: Uh, why did you buy 12 loaves of bread?
Husband: They have those eggs you like.
That was brilliant, thank you!
It's also going on their final exam. I'm adding it as we speak!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
She's not a fan of Husserl, then, I suppose?
(Sorry if no one else finds that funny. My kids have informed me that my jokes aren't funny, but when I'm tired at the end of the day, I make them anyway.)
I loved the formal logic course I took in college. I spend a lot of time programming now, so I frequently encounter 12 loaves of bread problems.
Ah, formal logic. 'Disjunct' means something very different in linguistics, and would not have caused the problem you alluded to. Thanks.
Quote from: traductio on October 06, 2020, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
She's not a fan of Husserl, then, I suppose?
(Sorry if no one else finds that funny. My kids have informed me that my jokes aren't funny, but when I'm tired at the end of the day, I make them anyway.)
It went over my head but grazed my hair--I recognized Husserl's name without remembering anything about him. Either I didn't pay enough attention in Intro to Philosophy, or it's been too long.
Quote from: apl68 on October 07, 2020, 07:05:49 AM
Quote from: traductio on October 06, 2020, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
She's not a fan of Husserl, then, I suppose?
(Sorry if no one else finds that funny. My kids have informed me that my jokes aren't funny, but when I'm tired at the end of the day, I make them anyway.)
It went over my head but grazed my hair--I recognized Husserl's name without remembering anything about him. Either I didn't pay enough attention in Intro to Philosophy, or it's been too long.
Husserl's key idea is that of the
epoche, which is often translated as a form of bracketing off of reality. He's a continental philosopher, rather than analytic, which is what makes my joke so obscure! Also, I should listen to my kids, who tell me I'm not as funny as I think I am.
Edited to add: I'm not a philosopher, just a dabbler. I read widely, which is how I worked through a lot of Husserl in grad school.
A student emailed me this week asking if I could send him all of my lectures for the lab class.
It took me a while to wrap my head around this bizarre question, but my response email was satisfyingly short.
"Dear Stu Dent, there are no lectures for this course. This is a laboratory course."
Quote from: traductio on October 06, 2020, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
She's not a fan of Husserl, then, I suppose?
(Sorry if no one else finds that funny. My kids have informed me that my jokes aren't funny, but when I'm tired at the end of the day, I make them anyway.)
Actually, that's the only bracketing she'll allow!
I am SO sick of the snotty emails I'm getting from students over the past few weeks. IHE, I think, did an article on this a few days ago; I'm trying to get ready to teach (between answering snotty emails), so I'll try to find and link later.
I get the whole "screen bravado" thing, and "they're stressed," but dammit, so am I. Our customer-first place generally expects us to be happy punching bags, which I've never gone along with, but even for this place, I've never had so many over-the-top messages this early, or even in an entire semester, as I've had since mid-September.
My responses are getting increasingly snarky, BCC'd to my chair and dean, who have been supportive. I'm not mean, but I'm giving these students chapter-and-verse of why I'm not putting up with the attitudes (e.g., they turn in crap work that ignores instructions--or, my favorite, NO work--then bitch about grades; one turned in a paper late on Sunday, then raised hell because it wasn't graded and returned by Tuesday morning).
Grrr. Sorry. Off to teach two LVL classes where I'm the only one talking again. Surprise, kiddies: if you won't talk, I have lots of writing ready for you to do instead.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 08, 2020, 06:20:06 AM
I am SO sick of the snotty emails I'm getting from students over the past few weeks. IHE, I think, did an article on this a few days ago; I'm trying to get ready to teach (between answering snotty emails), so I'll try to find and link later.
I get the whole "screen bravado" thing, and "they're stressed," but dammit, so am I. Our customer-first place generally expects us to be happy punching bags, which I've never gone along with, but even for this place, I've never had so many over-the-top messages this early, or even in an entire semester, as I've had since mid-September.
My responses are getting increasingly snarky, BCC'd to my chair and dean, who have been supportive. I'm not mean, but I'm giving these students chapter-and-verse of why I'm not putting up with the attitudes (e.g., they turn in crap work that ignores instructions--or, my favorite, NO work--then bitch about grades; one turned in a paper late on Sunday, then raised hell because it wasn't graded and returned by Tuesday morning).
Grrr. Sorry. Off to teach two LVL classes where I'm the only one talking again. Surprise, kiddies: if you won't talk, I have lots of writing ready for you to do instead.
Yeah, I'm about to send a few "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I need you to submit the work if you want to even attempt to pass the class" emails myself.
I also like to channel my inner Data (from Star Trek) for my fantasy responses: "I am incapable of fully understanding the inappropriate and immature emotions within your email; nonetheless, your late work will go to the bottom of my grading pile, where it belongs." I absolutely love the way Data includes final moral judgments at the end of his sentences. He's pretty cool, for an android.
Quote from: onthefringe on September 19, 2020, 01:40:12 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 18, 2020, 06:19:22 PM
Sorry, I didn't see a reference to Micro.
Noguchi sounds like a good start, though.
M.
Fanny Hesse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Hesse)? Alice Catherine Evans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Catherine_Evans)? Lady Montagu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Mary_Wortley_Montagu)?
And now--more females!!
https://www.reuters.com/article/nobel-prize-chemistry-idUSKBN26S1HF
M.
Fishbrains and Amlihist, I'm with you. A good portion of my students didn't seem to get that remote instruction meant wore work on their part, not less. Many of them seem convinced that since it's pandemic is mean of us to expect them to do any work at all.
I had a student ask in the review session for the second exam if he should be studying the video lectures that I have put together on each topic. Why else would I have created them?
Quote from: mythbuster on October 08, 2020, 09:07:50 AM
I had a student ask in the review session for the second exam if he should be studying the video lectures that I have put together on each topic. Why else would I have created them?
Most of mine don't watch the video lectures because they are "boring." Yes, the "how to make a works cited entry for the website you needed to include" video was not as exciting as writing the works cited entry in class with me would surely(!) have been. I omit my scintillating(!) wit and humor so videos will be shorter. I recommend that, when possible, they watch the video while doing the activity shown in another window, on another device, or even on a piece of paper, pausing as needed. They could also use the textbook, but that is "boring" too. Guess how the works cited entries turned out?
Would anyone like to make an exciting citation music video with me?
(Actually, it's probably already been done).
AR.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 08, 2020, 09:07:50 AM
Many of them seem convinced that since it's pandemic is mean of us to expect them to do any work at all.
I might have commented on this elsewhere, but my wife supervises students in a non-academic unit on campus. Her student workers have repeatedly said "this semester doesn't count" and they believe that the university will make a last-minute change to P/F. If this mindset is widespread, then even the A students aren't putting forth their normal effort because "it doesn't matter."
I've had students tell me in emails that I "graded their exam wrong." I've been hearing all sorts of complaints, both at my university and on social media, about the snark of student emails. I'd yet to hear about BCCing the chair until this thread.
Here's the item, "Keyboard Courage (https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/keyboard-courage)," from the 10/5/2020 IHE.
I actually resorted to calling students by name in my 102 LVL this morning. I hate that; it feels so third-grade-ish. But after waiting them out for 2 1/2 minutes on a simple question ("Who is shown in this visual argument? Describe the people."--about a photo of football players and coaches, some kneeling, presented in the textbook), I'd had enough. I still barely got any responses. It ticks me off; students usually love the chapter on visual arguments because it's fun, it's something they have experience with and think they know all about, and so on. Not this bunch, though. They're working my last nerve.
RatGuy, I'm the one BCC'ing my chair and dean--that way, when either one answers the phone with a shrieking student on the other end, they'll have some background.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 08, 2020, 11:05:22 AM
I'm the one BCC'ing my chair and dean--that way, when either one answers the phone with a shrieking student on the other end, they'll have some background.
As a chair, I very much appreciate when faculty do this.
After a couple of unproductive emails, I advise the student to talk to the Chair, cc'd on the email.
It's not unusual that I have several students that failed to take their exams last week.
It *is* pretty weird that not a single one of those students has contacted me to ask for a makeup. I wonder what happened to these people...
I know.
In another situation, when I realized a friend hadn't replied to an email in a week, I first went to their church website to see if they were on the prayer list as being ill.
There are so many different parameters and expectations at present.
M.
Lemme guess: LVL = 'live video lecture'?
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 08, 2020, 06:20:06 AM
I am SO sick of the snotty emails I'm getting from students over the past few weeks. IHE, I think, did an article on this a few days ago; I'm trying to get ready to teach (between answering snotty emails), so I'll try to find and link later.
I get the whole "screen bravado" thing, and "they're stressed," but dammit, so am I. Our customer-first place generally expects us to be happy punching bags, which I've never gone along with, but even for this place, I've never had so many over-the-top messages this early, or even in an entire semester, as I've had since mid-September.
My responses are getting increasingly snarky, BCC'd to my chair and dean, who have been supportive. I'm not mean, but I'm giving these students chapter-and-verse of why I'm not putting up with the attitudes (e.g., they turn in crap work that ignores instructions--or, my favorite, NO work--then bitch about grades; one turned in a paper late on Sunday, then raised hell because it wasn't graded and returned by Tuesday morning).
Grrr. Sorry. Off to teach two LVL classes where I'm the only one talking again. Surprise, kiddies: if you won't talk, I have lots of writing ready for you to do instead.
I'm sorry I'm so late to this discussion, but "happy punching bag" is exactly how I've been feeling.
I may have to revisit the Student Conduct Code and brush up on the policies for verbal and written harassment.
Being extra nice and accommodating to students this semester certainly has an abusive downside. I feel like a high school teacher at a charter school.
Stu Dent, how in the whole galaxy worth of worlds did you place into my class? I am aware that you are ESL, but you should still have the language skills to write a coherent basic sentence, in fact, an entire coherent basic paragraph! I am then asking you to put several of those together into an essay. You also should have the skills to read the assignment sheet that I posted online. If I ask you for an essay on an abstract concept, using a source text, don't just latch on to one detail in the source text and turn in error-riddled meanderings about only that, ignoring the actual topic, and completely lacking in documentation.
Grr. Argh.
At least this was easy to grade.
Dear graduate TA,
If you do not know the answer to a very essential topic (think "how to weave reed baskets" in a Basketweaving 101 class), then I expect you to:
read the background materials
read the relevant parts of the textbook
watch the short video on that topic
try the practice problems
grade yourself with the answer key
and TELL ME you need some help
Do not, I repeat, do not just make up an answer to tell your students since you "aren't sure the answer key is correct" (spoiler alert: it's correct).
You are going to have to re-grade all of those assignments.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 06, 2020, 03:28:08 PM
Quote from: reverist on October 06, 2020, 11:59:57 AM
As a fellow philosopher, I smiled when I saw "brackets." :)
:)
My partner's a continental (I'm an analytic). Talk of brackets and bracketing makes her apoplectic.
I love it! I believe I saw elsewhere that you're teaching a metaphysics and epistemology class. I'll stop the derailment of the thread here, but I am wrapping up a PhD thesis dealing with, amongst other things, the metaphysics of causation.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 08, 2020, 06:20:06 AM
I am SO sick of the snotty emails I'm getting from students over the past few weeks. IHE, I think, did an article on this a few days ago; I'm trying to get ready to teach (between answering snotty emails), so I'll try to find and link later.
I get the whole "screen bravado" thing, and "they're stressed," but dammit, so am I. Our customer-first place generally expects us to be happy punching bags, which I've never gone along with, but even for this place, I've never had so many over-the-top messages this early, or even in an entire semester, as I've had since mid-September.
My responses are getting increasingly snarky, BCC'd to my chair and dean, who have been supportive. I'm not mean, but I'm giving these students chapter-and-verse of why I'm not putting up with the attitudes (e.g., they turn in crap work that ignores instructions--or, my favorite, NO work--then bitch about grades; one turned in a paper late on Sunday, then raised hell because it wasn't graded and returned by Tuesday morning).
Grrr. Sorry. Off to teach two LVL classes where I'm the only one talking again. Surprise, kiddies: if you won't talk, I have lots of writing ready for you to do instead.
I feel this so much. I had a student who simply sent me the following: "Just to think I worked so hard on this paper and you grade it so hard. Unrealistic."
The student received a B, and for easily documentable reasons. I decided to be nice, and wrote something like: "I can see that you are frustrated, and frustration often comes when our expectations don't align with outcomes. You did receive a good grade, and it was not a bad paper! It was just X, Y, and Z. Hope this helps!"
This is an adult woman who is probably a good 15-20 years older than I am, not an entitled youngin. Who knows what's going on there!
Quote from: reverist on October 09, 2020, 10:54:16 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 08, 2020, 06:20:06 AM
I am SO sick of the snotty emails I'm getting from students over the past few weeks. IHE, I think, did an article on this a few days ago; I'm trying to get ready to teach (between answering snotty emails), so I'll try to find and link later.
I get the whole "screen bravado" thing, and "they're stressed," but dammit, so am I. Our customer-first place generally expects us to be happy punching bags, which I've never gone along with, but even for this place, I've never had so many over-the-top messages this early, or even in an entire semester, as I've had since mid-September.
My responses are getting increasingly snarky, BCC'd to my chair and dean, who have been supportive. I'm not mean, but I'm giving these students chapter-and-verse of why I'm not putting up with the attitudes (e.g., they turn in crap work that ignores instructions--or, my favorite, NO work--then bitch about grades; one turned in a paper late on Sunday, then raised hell because it wasn't graded and returned by Tuesday morning).
Grrr. Sorry. Off to teach two LVL classes where I'm the only one talking again. Surprise, kiddies: if you won't talk, I have lots of writing ready for you to do instead.
I feel this so much. I had a student who simply sent me the following: "Just to think I worked so hard on this paper and you grade it so hard. Unrealistic."
The student received a B, and for easily documentable reasons. I decided to be nice, and wrote something like: "I can see that you are frustrated, and frustration often comes when our expectations don't align with outcomes. You did receive a good grade, and it was not a bad paper! It was just X, Y, and Z. Hope this helps!"
This is an adult woman who is probably a good 15-20 years older than I am, not an entitled youngin. Who knows what's going on there!
Where else do you think entitled youngins come from?
Just a possible explanation.
Quote from: fishbrains on October 09, 2020, 11:09:42 AM
Where else do you think entitled youngins come from?
Just a possible explanation.
Fair enough, haha!
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 08, 2020, 07:32:18 PM
Lemme guess: LVL = 'live video lecture'?
Sorry I'm just getting back, Kay.
LVL= Live Virtual Lecture = the bane of my (and most faculty colleagues') existence = colossal waste of time.
--Many students won't (can't? I haven't heard about problems) log in.
--If/when they do log in, they walk off, go to sleep, or otherwise disappear during the session.
--They won't turn on their cameras (and we can't make them, as it might "cause embarrassment for other students to know an individual doesn't have a camera or to see his/her living situation").
--They're apparently deathly afraid of speaking into a mic to talk during class.
Thus, it's 75 minutes of me hearing myself talk/ask them questions that go unanswered, even when I call people by name. I'm hearing similar results from many other faculty. I would SO rather be teaching these online, where I've a long and proven track record of success. Students can't be getting much, if any, value added out of these sections as they now work.
The great irony is that I'm teaching remotely to students that rarely even log in, yet I'm enrolled in a professional development module where some edu-wonk dude is explaining just how wonderful it is for professors to engage their students with active questioning, and how all of us should do this.
Yeah okay, edu-wonk man. Whatever you say.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 09, 2020, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 08, 2020, 07:32:18 PM
Lemme guess: LVL = 'live video lecture'?
Sorry I'm just getting back, Kay.
LVL= Live Virtual Lecture = the bane of my (and most faculty colleagues') existence = colossal waste of time.
--Many students won't (can't? I haven't heard about problems) log in.
--If/when they do log in, they walk off, go to sleep, or otherwise disappear during the session.
--They won't turn on their cameras (and we can't make them, as it might "cause embarrassment for other students to know an individual doesn't have a camera or to see his/her living situation").
--They're apparently deathly afraid of speaking into a mic to talk during class.
Thus, it's 75 minutes of me hearing myself talk/ask them questions that go unanswered, even when I call people by name. I'm hearing similar results from many other faculty. I would SO rather be teaching these online, where I've a long and proven track record of success. Students can't be getting much, if any, value added out of these sections as they now work.
Well there are lots of reasons to not mandate camera use beyond the one you cite. Bandwidth. Privacy (is my younger sibling e-learning near me and visible? is the only space I have that can be quiet so I can focus my bedroom?). But it does seem for me to be more exhausting to speak to a gallery of black squares with white text.
For participation, I am having a lot of luck using chat for participation. Lots going on in there. And I pull comments/questions out of it to share with group, which frequently leads to voice and typing chat from even more students. Can that be done in your LVL structure?
Quote from: reverist on October 09, 2020, 10:54:16 AM
I feel this so much. I had a student who simply sent me the following: "Just to think I worked so hard on this paper and you grade it so hard. Unrealistic."
The student received a B, and for easily documentable reasons. I decided to be nice, and wrote something like: "I can see that you are frustrated, and frustration often comes when our expectations don't align with outcomes. You did receive a good grade, and it was not a bad paper! It was just X, Y, and Z. Hope this helps!"
This is an adult woman who is probably a good 15-20 years older than I am, not an entitled youngin. Who knows what's going on there!
What a Karen. Did she ask to see your manager?
Quote from: Bonnie on October 09, 2020, 02:28:21 PM
For participation, I am having a lot of luck using chat for participation. Lots going on in there. And I pull comments/questions out of it to share with group, which frequently leads to voice and typing chat from even more students. Can that be done in your LVL structure?
I also ask them at the beginning to use the chat box if they don't want to deal with microphones. I read out the questions and comments and then answer them. Sometimes I ask questions and give them time to type. I'm in the humanities, so where lots of appropriate responses are possible, I sometimes also say things like "I won't keep going in the lecture until 5 of you have given me an example of X." I did this more at the beginning, and now I don't need to do it nearly as much.
I also have been celebrating the students who choose to upload photos to our video software (Google Meet, which puts up colored circles for non-video participants). I have been praising the photos quietly and pointing out that it is nicer to stare at anything that is not a colored circle (don't want your face on screen? A cat is cute too).
AR.
Dear Cheaty McCheaterson of the oh-so-blatant dishonesty,
You can hide, but you can't run. And you can't hide forever.
It sounds a lot like enrolled people don't want to participate in their own education and aren't even trying to fake it for several of the recent posts.
We have seminars all the time with just projected slides and the presenter speaking with a lively chat box for the audience. There are no black boxes.
We have meetings with no video and just discussion, possibly with someone calling on volunteers in order to ensure quality audio. Again, no black boxes because most people are just calling in.
College: A place where many would prefer to not to get full value for their money.
Quote from: polly_mer on October 10, 2020, 05:30:00 PM
It sounds a lot like enrolled people don't want to participate in their own education and aren't even trying to fake it for several of the recent posts.
We have seminars all the time with just projected slides and the presenter speaking with a lively chat box for the audience. There are no black boxes.
We have meetings with no video and just discussion, possibly with someone calling on volunteers in order to ensure quality audio. Again, no black boxes because most people are just calling in.
College: A place where many would prefer to not to get full value for their money.
Same here. If students are just phoning it in at best, why should I be spending so much time creating materials that 75%+ of students ignore until an exam when they frantically try to search them for answers (or worse, plagiarize from sites after a quick Google search)?
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 10, 2020, 08:58:04 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 10, 2020, 05:30:00 PM
It sounds a lot like enrolled people don't want to participate in their own education and aren't even trying to fake it for several of the recent posts.
We have seminars all the time with just projected slides and the presenter speaking with a lively chat box for the audience. There are no black boxes.
We have meetings with no video and just discussion, possibly with someone calling on volunteers in order to ensure quality audio. Again, no black boxes because most people are just calling in.
College: A place where many would prefer to not to get full value for their money.
Same here. If students are just phoning it in at best, why should I be spending so much time creating materials that 75%+ of students ignore until an exam when they frantically try to search them for answers (or worse, plagiarize from sites after a quick Google search)?
I agree with you both, Polly and Anon. Bonnie, I've done all of what you suggest: chat, group breakouts and report-back, in-session Bb writing assignments/quizzes (all of which provide evidence of minimal/no effort from all but one or two students). And I do get the idea about not requiring cameras, though I do think having them on would provide more incentive and a sense of responsibility on students' part.
I get this kind of group in F2F classes sometimes, but there it's easier to get a feel for who's willing to be nudged into participating but might just be a little shy. Here, I can't read that, and when I've tried all the tricks that to get things started, nothing works. I do have one guy in this class--a HS dual enrolled student--who occasionally talks, but I'm sure he feels awkward after awhile, when all his older classmates are dead silent. (For what it's worth, he's a really good writer and has a high A going into midterm.)
I'll say, too, that I'm hearing from my chair and others in my department, and others, that they're all having similar classes.
I really am trying to roll with it and trying to keep things interesting, but I feel like I'm wasting my time and not doing anybody any good in these classes. I know: I can't care more than they do. Still, it seems pretty clear that I do. I'm going to talk with my chair at midterm to see if I can convert to a quasi-online format--maybe meeting one day a week for workshops on papers, etc. But if they won't talk/participate, that's not going to solve anything either.
Mainly I'm just trying to keep up my own motivation and remind myself that things will get better someday (I hope).
So sorry AmLitHist. Teaching to such unengaged students would be very draining, I think. I hope you get the ok to change fyour format.
The apathy and whininess is so much higher this term that I've started looking at buying these T-shirts.
It Was In The Syllabus T-Shirt Funny Gift T-Shirt
https://www.amazon.com/Was-Syllabus-T-Shirt-Funny-Gift/dp/B07GX514SY/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=its+on+the+syllabus+t-shirt&qid=1602451692&sr=8-13
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2020, 02:45:49 PM
The apathy and whininess is so much higher this term that I've started looking at buying these T-shirts.
It Was In The Syllabus T-Shirt Funny Gift T-Shirt
https://www.amazon.com/Was-Syllabus-T-Shirt-Funny-Gift/dp/B07GX514SY/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=its+on+the+syllabus+t-shirt&qid=1602451692&sr=8-13
Funny. Do you plan to do any video chats wearing it?
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 11, 2020, 07:29:38 AM
I really am trying to roll with it and trying to keep things interesting, but I feel like I'm wasting my time and not doing anybody any good in these classes. I know: I can't care more than they do. Still, it seems pretty clear that I do. I'm going to talk with my chair at midterm to see if I can convert to a quasi-online format--maybe meeting one day a week for workshops on papers, etc. But if they won't talk/participate, that's not going to solve anything either.
The longer I'm out of academia, especially the institution category where so few students wanted to learn anything, and the longer I spend with my international colleagues who have the attitude that university should be limited to people who are succeeding at learning, the more I wonder whether the programs/institutions that close in the next two years will actually be the ones objective observers would chose as serving too few people who are benefiting from college versus which institutions just ran out of money first.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2020, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2020, 02:45:49 PM
The apathy and whininess is so much higher this term that I've started looking at buying these T-shirts.
It Was In The Syllabus T-Shirt Funny Gift T-Shirt
https://www.amazon.com/Was-Syllabus-T-Shirt-Funny-Gift/dp/B07GX514SY/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=its+on+the+syllabus+t-shirt&qid=1602451692&sr=8-13
Funny. Do you plan to do any video chats wearing it?
The only reason I haven't bought this mug yet is because we call it a course handbook, rather than a syllabus, at my institution:
https://www.effinbirds.com/products/syllabus-mug?variant=56066899970
I have a mask that says it.
Also: Dude, you didn't take the quizzes. Don;t give t=me that BULL that they weren't available (2/3 of the class did it), or that you didn't see the announcements (they are STILL up).
YOU dropped the ball. Pick it up and commence to a-runnin'.
Student gets a 9% on the Midterm. Wow...
Dear class,
Two of you showed up to our synchronous class meeting. TWO. Less than 10%.
I explained how to complete the lab that everyone struggles with, but you won't hear that in time to complete the lab b/c the recording won't post until later this evening. And there won't be an extension on the due date because you won't have been there to get one.
Seriously. We meet ONE night a week. If you can't commit to that, you shouldn't have taken the course.
No love,
Fishprof
Student fails an open-book, open-notes final exam that I warn class from day 1 is a test that requires diligent note taking and some time spent studying for. I remind them of this exam routinely, provide a condensed review on the last class, and post slides of said review on the LMS.
Student who failed is baffled they failed and emails demanding I "call and explain." Honestly, I'm baffled, too. :shrug:
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 13, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
Sounds like the same anxiety dream I used to have (And still do, occasionally, some years after taking my last class of any kind). It wasn't always a math class. And I literally never missed a class in real life!
Amazing that this could actually happen to anybody. Is the student's "surprise" class online? I can sort of see how an online-only class could get lost in the shuffle. Some of the recent stories on this thread tend to confirm my suspicion that many students really need face-to-face classes to help them stay accountable.
Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 06:35:24 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 13, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
Sounds like the same anxiety dream I used to have (And still do, occasionally, some years after taking my last class of any kind). It wasn't always a math class. And I literally never missed a class in real life!
Amazing that this could actually happen to anybody. Is the student's "surprise" class online? I can sort of see how an online-only class could get lost in the shuffle. Some of the recent stories on this thread tend to confirm my suspicion that many students really need face-to-face classes to help them stay accountable.
I once had to deal with a professor who 'forgot' she was teaching an online course that term after setting up the course, posting a couple weeks of material, and responding to student posts/questions for the first week. At week five of an eight-week term, the students contacted me because they couldn't get any response from the professor.
That was just a big pain all around and this was a new TT faculty member who had experience with online teaching elsewhere. The letter that went into her file her first year was very blunt, especially when the remainder of her online course stayed under the microscope and the course was also a fail on sufficient content for three credits.
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 13, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
I still get that dream! Only now it's with the twist that I'm teaching the class. Or that I'm both taking it AND teaching it. Dreams are so weird.
I had a friend in grad school who had the opposite happen. He forgot to formally register for a class. He went to every class and earned an A. It was a team taught class so the instructor in charge never checked the roster until they were entering final grades. I remember the pile of paperwork to retro-actively add him in was significant!
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
I had a friend in grad school who had the opposite happen. He forgot to formally register for a class. He went to every class and earned an A. It was a team taught class so the instructor in charge never checked the roster until they were entering final grades. I remember the pile of paperwork to retro-actively add him in was significant!
There's a good reason for that. It would be a good strategy to "forget" to register for a course until finding out whether the final grade was acceptable or not, and then only "remembering" in the former case.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
I had a friend in grad school who had the opposite happen. He forgot to formally register for a class. He went to every class and earned an A. It was a team taught class so the instructor in charge never checked the roster until they were entering final grades. I remember the pile of paperwork to retro-actively add him in was significant!
It's been too long to recall the exact details, but I did something like that as an undergrad. A week or two into class the prof took me aside and let me know that I wasn't registered. We got it all straightened out. It was an undergrad philosophy class.
I got an A. But 30-odd years later I still can't tell you anything about Husserl except his last name.
I am giving my 1st Online Practical exam (we've had a dozen quizzes so far). Three of my students couldn't find the exam (it is 20% of their grade). Turns out, they haven't taken the syllabus quiz and earned 100% yet, so they haven't seen or done ANYTHING in the class so far.
It is the midterm point. How can anyone be this clueless?
Quote from: FishProf on October 14, 2020, 10:54:30 AM
I am giving my 1st Online Practical exam (we've had a dozen quizzes so far). Three of my students couldn't find the exam (it is 20% of their grade). Turns out, they haven't taken the syllabus quiz and earned 100% yet, so they haven't seen or done ANYTHING in the class so far.
It is the midterm point. How can anyone be this clueless?
Grade of F is a teachable moment.
Quote from: spork on October 14, 2020, 11:06:40 AM
Quote from: FishProf on October 14, 2020, 10:54:30 AM
I am giving my 1st Online Practical exam (we've had a dozen quizzes so far). Three of my students couldn't find the exam (it is 20% of their grade). Turns out, they haven't taken the syllabus quiz and earned 100% yet, so they haven't seen or done ANYTHING in the class so far.
It is the midterm point. How can anyone be this clueless?
Grade of F is a teachable moment.
Except when they don't login to check their grade.......
Spork - Yep
Marshwiggle - Ha!
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 14, 2020, 11:09:02 AM
Quote from: spork on October 14, 2020, 11:06:40 AM
Quote from: FishProf on October 14, 2020, 10:54:30 AM
I am giving my 1st Online Practical exam (we've had a dozen quizzes so far). Three of my students couldn't find the exam (it is 20% of their grade). Turns out, they haven't taken the syllabus quiz and earned 100% yet, so they haven't seen or done ANYTHING in the class so far.
It is the midterm point. How can anyone be this clueless?
Grade of F is a teachable moment.
Except when they don't login to check their grade.......
That is pretty amazing. You'd think they'd have noticed the lack of course content by now.
Sounds like maybe a lot of students are going to be having that nightmare we talked about. Except it's turning out all too real.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 14, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
That is pretty amazing. You'd think they'd have noticed the lack of course content by now.
You'd like to think that, wouldn't You?!
It is truly mind-boggling. The zeros keep mounting in the gradebook, and they just don't notice.
I am not a fan of having to send out mid-term failure warnings, but it is increasingly necessary just to get some students to notice the semester has started.
We are about half way through our semester here and I still have two students who have never logged into the course shell. I sent them personalized email during the second week of the course and have filled out all of the various student-warning notification software in use at my school. Other students have told me that they plan to drop the course (explaining their lack of participation) but have not yet done so. My current average GPA for work completed in this class is below a C. Usually it is around a C+ at this point in the semester. This is an online course and students have always struggled to realize that online courses require them to take more responsibility for their learning; the final class GPA is usually slightly higher, as they get into the groove as the semester progresses. This year, I suspect that I will be awarding many "barely passing" grades based on the lack of participation.
Meanwhile, I am waiting in a zoom room for a student to meet with me regarding academic misconduct associated with plagiarizing a discussion post....I am starting to think that she may not show up for the mandatory conference as it has already been 40 minutes post our scheduled meeting time.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
I had a friend in grad school who had the opposite happen. He forgot to formally register for a class. He went to every class and earned an A. It was a team taught class so the instructor in charge never checked the roster until they were entering final grades. I remember the pile of paperwork to retro-actively add him in was significant!
I was co-teaching an Introductory Biology class a few years ago and had a student who attended every class, took all the exams, completed all the labs, etc. He registered late and had to fill out a form to Add the class. When we were submitting final course grades, we noticed he wasn't registered. He'd filled out the paper form but DIDN'T TURN IT IN to the Registrar.
The mind boggles.
The Dean of the College had to sign off on his "go ahead and get him registered after the final exam" paperwork. That was an awkward conversation.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 14, 2020, 08:41:48 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 13, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
I still get that dream! Only now it's with the twist that I'm teaching the class. Or that I'm both taking it AND teaching it. Dreams are so weird.
Oh wow! I have alarms on my phone for class times. I've not missed one myself but I have heard rare first hand accounts from colleagues.
The first time I experienced a student never coming to class except for the exams I was stunned, oh, that's not just a nightmare? that can be real? ack.
Quote from: apl68 on October 14, 2020, 06:35:24 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 13, 2020, 10:05:22 PM
I met with an advisee today who's been struggling. The student did not realize they were registered in a math class this term and we are half way, oh my! I had to take a moment because my grad school anxiety nightmare was having to take a final exam for a math class I never attended. oh. my.
Sounds like the same anxiety dream I used to have (And still do, occasionally, some years after taking my last class of any kind). It wasn't always a math class. And I literally never missed a class in real life!
Amazing that this could actually happen to anybody. Is the student's "surprise" class online? I can sort of see how an online-only class could get lost in the shuffle. Some of the recent stories on this thread tend to confirm my suspicion that many students really need face-to-face classes to help them stay accountable.
We are remote online. Faculty were asked to create calendar events for class meetings. So either the professor did not do that or the student missed it. But well, there still is the student's official class schedule and the fact that the student created their schedule...
Summer session, first day of class. Student in my Basketweaving class was quite disruptive until I realized that hu's name wasn't on my roster and sent Student to the Registrar's office to see if hu was enrolled in another section. A few days later, I happened to see Student who informed me that hu was enrolled in Bridgebuilding. Student hadn't realized that hu was in the wrong class despite spending an hour in class going over the syllabus and course-related activites that were not even remotely related to bridge building.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 14, 2020, 09:43:14 AM
I had a friend in grad school who had the opposite happen. He forgot to formally register for a class. He went to every class and earned an A. It was a team taught class so the instructor in charge never checked the roster until they were entering final grades. I remember the pile of paperwork to retro-actively add him in was significant!
Yes! The dangers of adding a student to the LMS to help them get access to the assignments while they take care of adding but then they neglect to register. And the importance of midsem grades, advising, etc.
Quote from: FishProf on October 14, 2020, 12:54:38 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 14, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
That is pretty amazing. You'd think they'd have noticed the lack of course content by now.
You'd like to think that, wouldn't You?!
It is truly mind-boggling. The zeros keep mounting in the gradebook, and they just don't notice.
I am not a fan of having to send out mid-term failure warnings, but it is increasingly necessary just to get some students to notice the semester has started.
I do a CYA (well, CMA) by having the system send auto emails when they do not turn in stuff, take quizzes, etc. on D2L. This way if they start wailing about not knowing that something was due, (besides having the information posted in a myriad of places like, I don't know- the syllabus?) I can point to these emails.
I tend to get a lot of emails that make me shake my head (literally) and pull my hair (literally, bad coping mechanism) when students ask me how to do simple tasks that are in the syllabus, like write a formal lab report (painfully detailed in the syllabus).
If someone has an answer to this question, PLEASE TELL ME.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 14, 2020, 07:51:00 PM
I do a CYA (well, CMA) by having the system send auto emails when they do not turn in stuff, take quizzes, etc. on D2L. This way if they start wailing about not knowing that something was due, (besides having the information posted in a myriad of places like, I don't know- the syllabus?) I can point to these emails.
Hmmm. I usually don't deploy the due date system in Blackboard. I might have to rethink that.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 14, 2020, 07:30:46 PM
Summer session, first day of class. Student in my Basketweaving class was quite disruptive until I realized that hu's name wasn't on my roster and sent Student to the Registrar's office to see if hu was enrolled in another section. A few days later, I happened to see Student who informed me that hu was enrolled in Bridgebuilding. Student hadn't realized that hu was in the wrong class despite spending an hour in class going over the syllabus and course-related activites that were not even remotely related to bridge building.
My record on students in the wrong class on the first day was an hour and a half into the two-hour session. Science for teachers apparently seemed like intro to psychology until we reorged into the second set of small groups for another what-do-you-know-about-the-state-k-8-science-standards activity.
We all watched the guy exclaim "this can't be intro to psychology!" and walk all the way across the clearly physics/astronomy lab to the door. The comments were pretty good along the lines of the announcement of the class name on the board, the handouts, the syllabus, and nearly every minute for the first ten of "In Science for Teachers this semester, we will..." should have been clues.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I noticed that I can't look up any of my quizzes in the online gradebook." RED FLAG #1.
Me: "Can you not click on the quizzes in your online gradebook?"
Stu Dent: "No. I mean, there's nothing there." RED FLAG #2
I check my Excel gradebook. Yup, this guy hasn't submitted anything for weeks. Let's see where this discussion goes...
Me: "Oh. If nothing is there, that means that nothing was submitted. You need to submit a quiz in order to review it later."
Stu Dent: "I'm pretty sure I took at least some of these. I'm going to contact BlackBoard support to see what happened." Pretty sure that you took some quizzes? And you're going to contact IT support *now* in the middle of the semester?? What are they going to do, conjure up some grades for you?? RED FLAG #3 and RED FLAG #4
What do you folks think are the odds that this student will even contact IT support? Myself, I call BS and give it 50/50.
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 07:01:35 AM
What do you folks think are the odds that this student will even contact IT support? Myself, I call BS and give it 50/50.
I am a regular reader of the funny customer-service share-your-stories-here genre. I bet he does contact IT support and generates another entry there along the lines of "Can you make it look like I took many of these quizzes and got a 6 or 8 out of 10? Why not?! My tuition pays your salary!"
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 07:22:37 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 07:01:35 AM
What do you folks think are the odds that this student will even contact IT support? Myself, I call BS and give it 50/50.
I am a regular reader of the funny customer-service share-your-stories-here genre. I bet he does contact IT support and generates another entry there along the lines of "Can you make it look like I took many of these quizzes and got a 6 or 8 out of 10? Why not?! My tuition pays your salary!"
We had a student who never turned in the major writing assignment for an intro class and then subsequently failed the course by a couple of points. This student's mother demanded that IT look into it as she was 100 percent certain that the student had turned it in. Turns out that not only had the student never submitted the paper the student have never even clicked on the assignment in Blackboard. IT did show that the instructor had entered the "0" after the assignment was not turned in, and that the "0" had sat there for over a month before the semester ended.
The mother then insisted that the system was broken and offered, as proof, that the student's advisor never got an email she had sent. Since email didn't work then obviously Blackboard didn't work either. The last email I received from her (several paragraphs long) accused me, among other things, of stealing money from a hard working family as their student was going to have to retake a class they should have passed.
Probably more like a, 'This is so disappointing moment.'
Student in a Physics II course does not know what the exponential function is...
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 07:22:37 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 07:01:35 AM
What do you folks think are the odds that this student will even contact IT support? Myself, I call BS and give it 50/50.
I am a regular reader of the funny customer-service share-your-stories-here genre. I bet he does contact IT support and generates another entry there along the lines of "Can you make it look like I took many of these quizzes and got a 6 or 8 out of 10? Why not?! My tuition pays your salary!"
One thing I like about online assignments is that I can easily check if a student attempted an assignment, when they saved it, etc. Sending them a screenshot of the access log is a great way to counter the "But I know I turned it in! On time!" or the "I didn't see the announcement" emails.
I get a lot of "Uh, maybe I was thinking of a quiz in another class" sort of apologies.
In grad school, a colleague was TAing for PHIL 200: Intro to Philosophy. I was in the lounge/office when, a month in, a student who'd been diligently attending his discussion sessions dropped in with his first (failed!) test to get some help.
It quickly emerged, in the subsequent discussion, that the student was actually enrolled in PHIL 210: Intro logic, had attended the normal logic class sessions, but had been attending my colleague's discussion sessions for Intro philosophy.
I confess we had a laugh, afterwards, imagining the guy's confusion in the discussion sessions, which obviously were going over very, very different material.
The poor guy, though!
At least it got sorted early. I believe he went on to do well in the class.
Stu Dent asked me in class a couple of days ago whether he should take the feedback I had given him on his first paper and the feedback from the tutoring center and apply it to his next paper.
Sarcastic answer that I didn't actually say: No, Stu, you should ignore what you're supposed to be learning in this class and just make the same mistakes over and over.
My actual answer: Yes, absolutely!
Apparently this cohort of students has been taught not to think or breathe before asking first.
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 12:02:29 PM
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
Navigational skills?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 12:02:29 PM
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
We had an advisor in academic success who would regularly override the Calculus prereq because, and I quote, "The math requirement is stupid. No one need Calculus."
All in the name of student retention and graduation rate.
Quote from: FishProf on October 15, 2020, 12:45:43 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 12:02:29 PM
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
We had an advisor in academic success who would regularly override the Calculus prereq because, and I quote, "The math requirement is stupid. No one need Calculus."
All in the name of student retention and graduation rate.
May that administrator fly in an airplane designed by engineers who didn't need Calculus.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 15, 2020, 12:49:39 PM
Quote from: FishProf on October 15, 2020, 12:45:43 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 12:02:29 PM
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
We had an advisor in academic success who would regularly override the Calculus prereq because, and I quote, "The math requirement is stupid. No one need Calculus."
All in the name of student retention and graduation rate.
May that administrator fly in an airplane designed by engineers who didn't need Calculus.
Indeed. Said admin was let go after several families threatened to sue over their offsprings' delayed graduation b/c of this.
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 06:01:44 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 14, 2020, 07:30:46 PM
Summer session, first day of class. Student in my Basketweaving class was quite disruptive until I realized that hu's name wasn't on my roster and sent Student to the Registrar's office to see if hu was enrolled in another section. A few days later, I happened to see Student who informed me that hu was enrolled in Bridgebuilding. Student hadn't realized that hu was in the wrong class despite spending an hour in class going over the syllabus and course-related activites that were not even remotely related to bridge building.
My record on students in the wrong class on the first day was an hour and a half into the two-hour session. Science for teachers apparently seemed like intro to psychology until we reorged into the second set of small groups for another what-do-you-know-about-the-state-k-8-science-standards activity.
We all watched the guy exclaim "this can't be intro to psychology!" and walk all the way across the clearly physics/astronomy lab to the door. The comments were pretty good along the lines of the announcement of the class name on the board, the handouts, the syllabus, and nearly every minute for the first ten of "In Science for Teachers this semester, we will..." should have been clues.
As a grad student, we had someone who came in about 5 minutes late, sat down, and took diligent notes for the entire class. It was graduate level algebra class ... she was looking for her college algebra class. We figured it out at the end when she came up looking for a syllabus ... she was really tremendously relieved though, she said "Oh my God I was thinking I made a huge mistake not taking intermediate algebra."
Quote from: kiana on October 15, 2020, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 06:01:44 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 14, 2020, 07:30:46 PM
Summer session, first day of class. Student in my Basketweaving class was quite disruptive until I realized that hu's name wasn't on my roster and sent Student to the Registrar's office to see if hu was enrolled in another section. A few days later, I happened to see Student who informed me that hu was enrolled in Bridgebuilding. Student hadn't realized that hu was in the wrong class despite spending an hour in class going over the syllabus and course-related activites that were not even remotely related to bridge building.
My record on students in the wrong class on the first day was an hour and a half into the two-hour session. Science for teachers apparently seemed like intro to psychology until we reorged into the second set of small groups for another what-do-you-know-about-the-state-k-8-science-standards activity.
We all watched the guy exclaim "this can't be intro to psychology!" and walk all the way across the clearly physics/astronomy lab to the door. The comments were pretty good along the lines of the announcement of the class name on the board, the handouts, the syllabus, and nearly every minute for the first ten of "In Science for Teachers this semester, we will..." should have been clues.
As a grad student, we had someone who came in about 5 minutes late, sat down, and took diligent notes for the entire class. It was graduate level algebra class ... she was looking for her college algebra class. We figured it out at the end when she came up looking for a syllabus ... she was really tremendously relieved though, she said "Oh my God I was thinking I made a huge mistake not taking intermediate algebra."
On the opposite side of this, as a senior in college, I went to the first day of an advanced science seminar course (discussion and presentation based) but decided it wasn't for me and dropped it. Since this was before computers (well, before easy things like computer access to your course schedule), I never realized the the registrar didn't process the drop until my grades came (in the mail — I'm old).
No harm no foul though, since I got an A.
I now vaguely assume the faculty member in question just gave everyone an A and didn't realize he had assigned more grades than he had students who attended?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 09:18:08 AM
Probably more like a, 'This is so disappointing moment.'
Student in a Physics II course does not know what the exponential function is...
Not unusual. We Math profs get blamed a lot, even though we cover it extensively.
Don't worry about the student. A job as a Presidential advisor awaits.
Someone emailed me today asking me how to solve for a simple math equation where the technique to solve it is normally taught in junior high school, or 9th grade, tops. He wanted to know if you completed math equations within parentheses before equations that weren't in parentheses.
I don't believe that in my entire 20+ years of teaching has any college student ever contacted me for help on how to do this. I'm now wondering if all of the high school seniors for 2020 were just passed diplomas carte blanche.
I mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 03:42:34 PM
Someone emailed me today asking me how to solve for a simple math equation where the technique to solve it is normally taught in junior high school, or 9th grade, tops. He wanted to know if you completed math equations within parentheses before equations that weren't in parentheses.
I don't believe that in my entire 20+ years of teaching has any college student ever contacted me for help on how to do this. I'm now wondering if all of the high school seniors for 2020 were just passed diplomas carte blanche.
I mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally from left to right was seventh grade when I learned it.
My current seventh grader demonstrated it last week when we were reviewing his recent classwork for a different reason.
QuoteI mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
What are parentheses?
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 03:42:34 PM
Someone emailed me today asking me how to solve for a simple math equation where the technique to solve it is normally taught in junior high school, or 9th grade, tops. He wanted to know if you completed math equations within parentheses before equations that weren't in parentheses.
I don't believe that in my entire 20+ years of teaching has any college student ever contacted me for help on how to do this. I'm now wondering if all of the high school seniors for 2020 were just passed diplomas carte blanche.
I mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
Yeah, but...
Mine always struggle with the brackets in intro logic. When I tell them to think of BEDMAS/order of operations, it helps a few. But most of them seem even more confused. It inevitably ends up being a 10+ minute conversation about starting with atomic sentences and building out to more and more complex expressions.
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 04:35:41 PM
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally from left to right was seventh grade when I learned it.
Hah! I don't think I ever heard that one.
It's the second quarter of entirely online classes here. I got an email from a TA that said one of her students is colorblind and can't tell the difference between any of the colors in the videos, graphs, & simulations in this class. It's really, really rare to have complete lack of color vision, but it is possible (1 in 50,000 people).
Student - why did you wait until NOW to bring this up? Online learning must be awful for you! Please, please contact the student resource center.
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 03:42:34 PM
Someone emailed me today asking me how to solve for a simple math equation where the technique to solve it is normally taught in junior high school, or 9th grade, tops. He wanted to know if you completed math equations within parentheses before equations that weren't in parentheses.
I don't believe that in my entire 20+ years of teaching has any college student ever contacted me for help on how to do this. I'm now wondering if all of the high school seniors for 2020 were just passed diplomas carte blanche.
I mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
Yep.
I saw that and immediately said, "Commutative and Associative Rules," and pictured our 8th grade math classroom with the historical mathematicians like Newton and Leibniz on the bulletin board as I said it to myself.
M.
Quote from: FishProf on October 15, 2020, 12:45:43 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 15, 2020, 12:02:29 PM
Grading these tests is... painful.
How do students with zero basic Math skills get into Calculus-based Physics? How???
We had an advisor in academic success who would regularly override the Calculus prereq because, and I quote, "The math requirement is stupid. No one need Calculus."
All in the name of student retention and graduation rate.
Yep. Wouldn't be surprised if they do that here too.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 04:48:21 PM
It's the second quarter of entirely online classes here. I got an email from a TA that said one of her students is colorblind and can't tell the difference between any of the colors in the videos, graphs, & simulations in this class. It's really, really rare to have complete lack of color vision, but it is possible (1 in 50,000 people).
Student - why did you wait until NOW to bring this up? Online learning must be awful for you! Please, please contact the student resource center.
On a side note, I've been going through modules here about adapting to online learning, and the thing that jumps out at me is that so much of the information about how to make online learning engaging basically ignores (or even contradicts!) accessability guidelines. I realize this was thrown together for covid, but it's kind of unsettling.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 15, 2020, 04:48:21 PM
It's the second quarter of entirely online classes here. I got an email from a TA that said one of her students is colorblind and can't tell the difference between any of the colors in the videos, graphs, & simulations in this class. It's really, really rare to have complete lack of color vision, but it is possible (1 in 50,000 people).
Student - why did you wait until NOW to bring this up? Online learning must be awful for you! Please, please contact the student resource center.
I'm only partially color blind, and I occasionally have trouble with color-coded graphics. The one time I went to New York City some years ago I had trouble reading the subway maps. It's an often overlooked issue.
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 07:01:35 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I noticed that I can't look up any of my quizzes in the online gradebook." RED FLAG #1.
Me: "Can you not click on the quizzes in your online gradebook?"
Stu Dent: "No. I mean, there's nothing there." RED FLAG #2
I check my Excel gradebook. Yup, this guy hasn't submitted anything for weeks. Let's see where this discussion goes...
Me: "Oh. If nothing is there, that means that nothing was submitted. You need to submit a quiz in order to review it later."
Stu Dent: "I'm pretty sure I took at least some of these. I'm going to contact BlackBoard support to see what happened." Pretty sure that you took some quizzes? And you're going to contact IT support *now* in the middle of the semester?? What are they going to do, conjure up some grades for you?? RED FLAG #3 and RED FLAG #4
What do you folks think are the odds that this student will even contact IT support? Myself, I call BS and give it 50/50.
So, Stu Dent contacted me today claiming this.
"I have contacted blackboard and they said they are not sure what to do for the missing assignments for the previous weeks, they stated that if the grades did not show or were not received it is your Professors choice to reopen the previous assignments/quizzes and allow me to resubmit them. Please let me know if you have received my course work from this week."So I ran a full LMS access check for this student. Not only did he never even log in for the first two weeks of class, he's also not submitted a single thing all term. His LMS access shows that he only even activated three assessments, but each event lasted for "0:00" or "0:01" hours. I had to calculate what "0:01" hours even was because it was such a small number. Heh,
0:01 hours is 36 seconds.
I copied the student's log-in access report and emailed it back to him. Currently, he has a
0 in the class. I wonder if he actually thinks that I'll reopen all of his missed work for him? What do I look like, a sweatshop professor at University of Phoenix ?
I'm bracing myself for a similar situation.
My student has, however, taken one quiz out of five, plus the midterm exam. He has missed all discussion board assignments, plus the one major written assignment so far. His average is 35%. He had trouble logging on the first week of classes, then was confused about whether we were on Blackboard or Canvas (our university is transitioning). But even after that was cleared up, he continued to do no work. He's claiming difficulty with the internet, and while I do feel some sympathy for those working from home with shaky internet connections, the fact remains that if you are going to take an online course, you have to be able to get online. Oddly, he seems to be able to get online to send me the occasional email.
I have been brutally frank with him (as well as his adviser) about his chances of passing. I will send another message just a day or two before the withdrawal deadline urging him to withdraw or risk an F. Sigh...
Quote from: polly_mer on October 15, 2020, 04:35:41 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 15, 2020, 03:42:34 PM
Someone emailed me today asking me how to solve for a simple math equation where the technique to solve it is normally taught in junior high school, or 9th grade, tops. He wanted to know if you completed math equations within parentheses before equations that weren't in parentheses.
I don't believe that in my entire 20+ years of teaching has any college student ever contacted me for help on how to do this. I'm now wondering if all of the high school seniors for 2020 were just passed diplomas carte blanche.
I mean crud, the Parentheses Rule is taught in junior high school, isn't it?
Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally from left to right was seventh grade when I learned it.
My current seventh grader demonstrated it last week when we were reviewing his recent classwork for a different reason.
Perhaps I should get a seventh grader to guest lecture some of my students.
One of my head-banging moments was with a recent quiz question - literally all they had to do was multiply two numbers together, both of which were given in the question. The formula is one we've covered, and that is on the class materials they could look at during the quiz. It's also in the textbook and isn't obscure. Yet some managed to get the question wrong. In another head-banging moment, I had an email from a student who got a question wrong because she used diameter instead of radius. I get not noticing the number given is a diameter rather than a radius as an oversight with the clock ticking, but she claimed that she'd checked the question again and was getting the same answer.
Like some of the rest of you, I'm starting to hear from the "mathematically impossible to pass" students, but not nearly enough of them.
One guy emailed overnight, begging for me not to drop him. (We can't drop anyone--trust me, Stu, if we could, you've have been gone weeks ago.) He emailed because an advisor contacted him yesterday saying that I'm going to fail him. This guy has been to maybe 3 of 16 Collaborate sessions ("live virtual lecture"); he's tuned in nary a word all semester, including the required in-class assignments; and now he's promising to have all the work from the first 8 weeks turned in to me by Monday morning.
Nope. This is midterm, and I have a ton of work from serious students coming in this weekend, and I have to get grades to the registrar by 5 Monday afternoon. Besides being impossible to do all that work, even if he could, there's a no late work policy in place, and also, I have real work to do.
Funny, too, that he was completely fine with ignoring my 3 emails earlier across the semester, the previous 2 calls from an advisor, and the detailed email I sent him this week, explaining complete with the numbers why he can't pass this class. Of course, the upshot in this guy's version will be that I'm a mean, evil, uncooperative old witch.
Whatever, guy. I'm not even banging my head anymore; they're just all getting to be a real drag, and there are a lot more of this kind this fall than in recent semesters. And, yippee, I have two 8-week Comp I classes starting on Monday. Woo-hoo. Pfft.
Oh man, you're using the Collaborate platform?
My deepest sympathies.
My sympathies too. The first time I used it, I found myself in one classroom and the students in another. After communicating through email for about 20 minutes, I had to resort to using the discussion board for the rest of the class session. The students survived, but I changed the format. Never again!
The Collaborate system is so lousy that many of the professors at Big Urban College opted to purchase their own personal Zoom accounts.
About a month after we were using Collaborate, there were enough complaints that our institution bought a separate Zoom license as a substitute.
We are being "strongly encouraged" to use collaborate, thankfully I already have Zoom account so my wife can talk to her family that lives over 2,000 miles away. I had a training meeting via collaborate with our distance education team and the meeting was a mess from start to finish. We are all in on Blackboard as an institution though so I expect that we will end up expanding the mandatory certification to collaborate as well.
I have my own Zoom, too, but got heavily Zoom-bombed on the second day of the semester--about a dozen bombers broke through the password and the waiting room. Since I have some underaged HS dual-enrolled students, that was the end of Zoom for me.
I hate Collaborate, not least because it's our required tool and with so many of us on at the same time/days, it's even clunkier than usual.
The folk dance class I take was Zoom-bombed the second week because they'd had the links up on Facebook for weeks (so easily available.)
They went to putting the links in a more protected space, and having a volunteer moderator staff tbe waiting room, who could only let in the folks who'd previously registered for the clsss.
No problems since, and that was months ago.
Also, Zoom's newest iteration (#5?) has more secure features, enforced waiting room, etc..
So if there's some way to use those things, you might be able to use it after all.
M.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
I have my own Zoom, too, but got heavily Zoom-bombed on the second day of the semester--about a dozen bombers broke through the password and the waiting room. Since I have some underaged HS dual-enrolled students, that was the end of Zoom for me.
I hate Collaborate, not least because it's our required tool and with so many of us on at the same time/days, it's even clunkier than usual.
How did they get through the waiting room? They shouldn't be able to get in unless you let them. Is this a case where you're being targeted because of the class title? Obviously it can happen, but my impression is that the chances are pretty slim unless you get targeted by some terrible corner of the internet.
We had a meeting Zoom-bombed when the link to a meeting with zero protections somehow got emailed out to a broad mailing list.
Suddenly we had all sorts of Cyrillic names, loud Russian music and they took over the screen and started flashing crazy images.
It was like being in an Eastern European disco.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on October 19, 2020, 05:54:15 AM
We are all in on Blackboard as an institution though so I expect that we will end up expanding the mandatory certification to collaborate as well.
We're a BlackBoard institution also, but we still purchased a Zoom license after so many people hated Collaborate.
Just like Collaborate, it's easy to code a direct Zoom interface within the BlackBoard LMS.
The biggest haters of Collaborate were our senior admin, who couldn't get basic meetings to work with anywhere near the ease as was done by using Zoom.
Now, most all of the staff and admin use Zoom. And at least half of the faculty use Zoom. The Collaborate users are mostly confined to our adjunct professors.
Gave an exam in the dreaded methods class. Had several strong As! Where is that classroom victories thread?
But, then there is a student who responded a short answer question about a landmark study in the field with this: "Lol um? I don't remember." Ok, so I guess points for not trying to bullshit, but seriously? I am not laughing out loud.
Quote from: Caracal on October 19, 2020, 08:23:27 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 19, 2020, 07:31:38 AM
I have my own Zoom, too, but got heavily Zoom-bombed on the second day of the semester--about a dozen bombers broke through the password and the waiting room. Since I have some underaged HS dual-enrolled students, that was the end of Zoom for me.
I hate Collaborate, not least because it's our required tool and with so many of us on at the same time/days, it's even clunkier than usual.
How did they get through the waiting room? They shouldn't be able to get in unless you let them. Is this a case where you're being targeted because of the class title? Obviously it can happen, but my impression is that the chances are pretty slim unless you get targeted by some terrible corner of the internet.
We (some colleagues and I) never did figure it out for sure. The link was provided in Blackboard (secured) as was the Zoom password. A student in the class could have shared both, but the waiting room should have stopped the bombers' entering, since I always set it so that I as moderator have to click to allow them into the room one by one.
I did get an email this week about a Zoom-sponsored meeting tomorrow, explaining those new security features. It's too late to switch back this fall (my 2 LVL classes are very small, and it's less hassle to just stay in Collaborate for the duration), but I hope to go back to Zoom come Spring '21.
ETA: this was an Early American Lit/American Lit I class, so there wouldn't seem to be a particular draw there for bombers--unless they had a burning desire to learn about Bradford's
Plimouth Plantation or the sermons of Winthrop, Wigglesworth, and Edwards!
Well, I would have bombed into that class, too but only to listen in and enjoy it!
I don't think the topic is the point of interest....they just wanna blow up something with their mad skillz, you know?
Like, I don't think our folk dance class discriminates against or for Macedonian, Balkan, Greek, Lithuanian, Portuguese, Castilian, Spanish, Breton, Scots, or Irish dances: we usually have a fair balance of each in any given week.
Kids these days...
M.
the eternal struggle of the LMS 11:59pm deadline vs "midnight"
No, Dear Students, the assignment is not set to "midnight". It is set to Weds Oct 21, 11:59pm.
Quote from: teach_write_research on October 20, 2020, 10:50:00 PM
the eternal struggle of the LMS 11:59pm deadline vs "midnight"
No, Dear Students, the assignment is not set to "midnight". It is set to Weds Oct 21, 11:59pm.
Yes, very familiar. I've considered making the deadline something like 8pm just to avoid this problem. Or maybe 2pm, so I'm around when I get the emails saying submission won't work for them, and I can sort it out then. But I find that often students experiencing a crisis still only check their email ever 4 days, so it probably isn't worth it.
I've had mine set to the end of my work day for years. Students get used to it after a few weeks. Hardly anybody sends me the standard late-night "but I couldn't get anything to work blah blah blah I'm making this all up cuz I know you're not online so now I should get an extension" BS from early years working with online LMS platforms.
No kiddos, this junk's due at the end of my office hours. And I'm watching my email for those last few hours to fix any *actual* problems that you might have.
Miraculously, most of the so-called late-night "tech issues" have evaporated since I started doing this.
I also have my deadlines set at the end of my work day (and all assignments are due on weekdays) for my online courses. I get the standard "I thought it was due at midnight" complaints during the first few weeks, but the students usually adjust. I also provide a 15 minute "technology glitch" extension to the submission window (not stated explicitly) so that those submitting right at the deadline don't send me panicked emails that they had the work done but could not get the LMS to accept the file in time. I see enough work marked "late" by the LMS with a time stamp that is precisely the submission deadline to know that students really do try to push it to the very last minute.
I did have a student who wanted me to change the submission deadline (for the entire class!) to be midnight the night before. I have since adopted this as a standard class announcement: if you prefer midnight deadlines, then you can set the work for this class as being due on X, Y, and Z at midnight, and consider that you will get an automatic extension to L, M, and N at COB.
If a student complains about the Friday COB deadline, I point out that I think it is important for students to have their Friday evenings (and weekends) free to do other things.
This is starting to convince me that I should make my deadlines at some point in the afternoon, at least as an experiment. Actually, the best time for me would be about 8AM. I wonder how that would work for the students.
Quote from: arcturus on October 21, 2020, 05:39:56 AM
If a student complains about the Friday COB deadline, I point out that I think it is important for students to have their Friday evenings (and weekends) free to do other things.
During covid, I'm having everything due Thursday evening, and nothing closes Friday or opens Monday, so I don't get email panic over the weekend about what is late or imminent. It makes the beginning and end of the work week much less stressful.
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2020, 05:48:05 AM
This is starting to convince me that I should make my deadlines at some point in the afternoon, at least as an experiment. Actually, the best time for me would be about 8AM. I wonder how that would work for the students.
I routinely use 8 AM deadlines for major projects, including final projects, and have even been known to have 8 AM Monday deadlines. I will set the dropbox to have the due date/time at 8 AM on Monday, and the actual closure of the dropbox, when work can no longer be uploaded, at 12 noon that same day for late work (with a penalty). I rarely have panicked emails or last-minute questions since I started doing this and the majority of the work is turned in by the previous Friday - guess they don't want to work over the weekend. For smaller projects during the semester, they are almost always due by the beginning time of the lab where we start the next topic, so if they know when class starts, they know when their work is due.
I recommend that if you set an online submission deadline, that you set it at a time when you will be available to check your LMS right before the deadline timer ticks down.
Being available at these times means that you can field any *appropriate* help messages from students before the assignment is due. This greatly reduces the pressure on you to grant extensions. You can also often see and troubleshoot more technical problems better in an assessment that's still active and running vs. one that's completed and shut down.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 21, 2020, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2020, 05:48:05 AM
This is starting to convince me that I should make my deadlines at some point in the afternoon, at least as an experiment. Actually, the best time for me would be about 8AM. I wonder how that would work for the students.
I routinely use 8 AM deadlines for major projects, including final projects, and have even been known to have 8 AM Monday deadlines. I will set the dropbox to have the due date/time at 8 AM on Monday, and the actual closure of the dropbox, when work can no longer be uploaded, at 12 noon that same day for late work (with a penalty). I rarely have panicked emails or last-minute questions since I started doing this and the majority of the work is turned in by the previous Friday - guess they don't want to work over the weekend.
Sounds like you've taught them a useful lesson in the value of planning right there!
I took over a class last-minute over the summer that had 11:59pm SUNDAY deadlines. (WHY???).
It was awful. So. Many. Emails.
I make a rule to have all deadlines during "normal business hours M-F". I'm not going to answer emails after 5:00pm and I'm certainly not staying up until midnight just in case a student has a panicking last minute question.
Quote from: Aster on October 21, 2020, 07:16:59 AM
I recommend that if you set an online submission deadline, that you set it at a time when you will be available to check your LMS right before the deadline timer ticks down.
Being available at these times means that you can field any *appropriate* help messages from students before the assignment is due. This greatly reduces the pressure on you to grant extensions. You can also often see and troubleshoot more technical problems better in an assessment that's still active and running vs. one that's completed and shut down.
I get the logic, but I only want to do that if it isn't going to result in more problems for me and the students. Most of my students work and have a lot of stuff going on, so I often try to have things due at the end of the weekend rather than the beginning to give them more flexibility. Some students have told me that having a few extra hours to finish something up after they put their kids to bed on Sunday night, or after work can be a big help. However, if I have class on Monday afternoon, I don't want to make something due at 10 am on Monday, because then everyone is trying to finish the assignment at the last minute, nobody does the reading for class and we have a lousy discussion.
I usually just rely on students who finish early as an alert system in case I've screwed up something with the submission, but I also just don't really care about giving extensions. I always tell the whole class that I'm fine with granting extensions, so it doesn't really matter to me if someone claims that they had an issue submitting. You don't have to lie to me to get a 12 hour extension, so if you want to, that's your business.
Quote from: Caracal on October 22, 2020, 06:05:12 AM
I get the logic, but I only want to do that if it isn't going to result in more problems for me and the students. Most of my students work and have a lot of stuff going on, so I often try to have things due at the end of the weekend rather than the beginning to give them more flexibility. Some students have told me that having a few extra hours to finish something up after they put their kids to bed on Sunday night, or after work can be a big help. However, if I have class on Monday afternoon, I don't want to make something due at 10 am on Monday, because then everyone is trying to finish the assignment at the last minute, nobody does the reading for class and we have a lousy discussion.
Sort of related to this; when I used to give exams, I
didn't hold office hours the day before the exam. (I was readily available before that.) The only people who show up the day before the exam are the ones who have blown things off all term, and now want you to teach them the whole course in an hour. ( A few good students may have minor questions, but they'll be fine anyway.)
Quote from: Caracal on October 22, 2020, 06:05:12 AM
Quote from: Aster on October 21, 2020, 07:16:59 AM
I recommend that if you set an online submission deadline, that you set it at a time when you will be available to check your LMS right before the deadline timer ticks down.
Being available at these times means that you can field any *appropriate* help messages from students before the assignment is due. This greatly reduces the pressure on you to grant extensions. You can also often see and troubleshoot more technical problems better in an assessment that's still active and running vs. one that's completed and shut down.
I get the logic, but I only want to do that if it isn't going to result in more problems for me and the students. Most of my students work and have a lot of stuff going on, so I often try to have things due at the end of the weekend rather than the beginning to give them more flexibility. Some students have told me that having a few extra hours to finish something up after they put their kids to bed on Sunday night, or after work can be a big help. However, if I have class on Monday afternoon, I don't want to make something due at 10 am on Monday, because then everyone is trying to finish the assignment at the last minute, nobody does the reading for class and we have a lousy discussion.
I usually just rely on students who finish early as an alert system in case I've screwed up something with the submission, but I also just don't really care about giving extensions. I always tell the whole class that I'm fine with granting extensions, so it doesn't really matter to me if someone claims that they had an issue submitting. You don't have to lie to me to get a 12 hour extension, so if you want to, that's your business.
For your students, that sounds like a very reasonable way to set the deadlines. Mine are mostly traditional age, full-time students without kids.
If I tried an 11:59pm Sunday deadline with my students, I'd get a TON of panicked emails at 11:45pm on Sunday from students who had just opened the assignment and realized they couldn't finish in 15 minutes. The first two weeks would be really rough, but I suppose they'd get it figured out.
My deadlines are 10 pm on Sunday. I don't mind answering emails on Sunday, but 10 pm means neither I nor they have to stay up till midnight.
My fully-online courses use 11:59pm on Sunday as the standard due date; new stuff opens up every Monday. Students have the full assignment schedule from day one. I definitely do not stay up until after midnight waiting for student emails.
A lot of the "last-minute panic" emails go away after a bit, especially since I have the following (very clear) policies: there is a 3-day "grace period" so even if the LMS marks your submission late, you don't receive a penalty; I do not check email or course messages between 8p-7a [this is actually a much more recent policy, as going fully online meant I needed stronger boundaries around time]; I will answer your message in 24-48 hours; college is for figuring out your own time-management and professional communication skills, it's ok to mess up a few times, learning from your mistakes is part of being a grown-up.
I find that if you set the policy, communicate it clearly, and then stick to it you don't end up with a huge amount of panicky emails, upset students, etc. The deadlines are always the same so there's not a question about when things are due. Students can plan around their lives/jobs/whatever. It all works itself out. (I teach at a CC and we are roughly 30% online courses in non-pandemic times.)
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
In response to an assignment to discuss the value of literature, a student gives as their example the lyrics from a One Direction song. In apparent sincerity.
And this is one of the better students in the class.
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
In response to an assignment to discuss the value of literature, a student gives as their example the lyrics from a One Direction song. In apparent sincerity.
And this is one of the better students in the class.
Well, some institutions (perhaps not yours) have played into this by "diversifying" their definitions of literature to include movies, popular music, etc. Especially modern, urban, etc.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 27, 2020, 06:05:23 AM
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
In response to an assignment to discuss the value of literature, a student gives as their example the lyrics from a One Direction song. In apparent sincerity.
And this is one of the better students in the class.
Well, some institutions (perhaps not yours) have played into this by "diversifying" their definitions of literature to include movies, popular music, etc. Especially modern, urban, etc.
I'm fine with including movies, pop music, and whatever. There are many great works in there. I'm not happy with someone who thinks that the lyrics of One Direction have any literary value.
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:10:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 27, 2020, 06:05:23 AM
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
In response to an assignment to discuss the value of literature, a student gives as their example the lyrics from a One Direction song. In apparent sincerity.
And this is one of the better students in the class.
Well, some institutions (perhaps not yours) have played into this by "diversifying" their definitions of literature to include movies, popular music, etc. Especially modern, urban, etc.
I'm fine with including movies, pop music, and whatever. There are many great works in there. I'm not happy with someone who thinks that the lyrics of One Direction have any literary value.
Would lyrics by Kendrick Lamar?
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
Having hired several recent high school graduates who failed spectacularly in the work place, I wonder the same thing.
We're having a practical exam in lab today. The instructions say [do technical thing] to ALL the [parts]. And it is in all caps, bolded, and underlined on the instructions. Stu raises his hand, I walk over to his table, and he asks "When the instructions say to do [thing] to all the parts. Does that mean this one too?" and he points to a part. I replied "All means all."
**sigh** I think we've reached the point of the semester when even the good students (and faculty too) are having a hard time getting multiple brain cells to work in unison.
Quote from: apl68 on October 27, 2020, 07:31:47 AM
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
Having hired several recent high school graduates who failed spectacularly in the work place, I wonder the same thing.
That indicates being in a bad K-12 system or at a college where the admissions filters are more "will you figure out how to pay tuition and get us money in a timely manner" and less "we need to limit ourselves to only N students, so let's be sure we get the students we need for the orchestra and be on the lookout for more of the majors we're trying to grow".
Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize in literature for his songs. How many professors back in the 1960s would have rolled their eyes and sighed about a paper with Dylan lyrics?
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 27, 2020, 07:42:11 AM
We're having a practical exam in lab today. The instructions say [do technical thing] to ALL the [parts]. And it is in all caps, bolded, and underlined on the instructions. Stu raises his hand, I walk over to his table, and he asks "When the instructions say to do [thing] to all the parts. Does that mean this one too?" and he points to a part. I replied "All means all."
**sigh** I think we've reached the point of the semester when even the good students (and faculty too) are having a hard time getting multiple brain cells to work in unison.
I'm more sympathetic to the clarifications for what should be very clear now that I've had far more experiences than I'd like with "Dear manager, did you really mean I should do this very costly thing that is blatantly stupid instead of doing this more reasonable thing for much less cost?" It has saved my neck to have in writing that I am indeed to spend several hours at $250/hour to document why these $10 were not misspent.
It has also saved my neck to have in writing, "No, that policy doesn't apply here. Please do X instead of Y", when it turned out Y was indeed absolutely required.
I have also been relieved to get in writing, "Oh, no, no. Let's loop in the relevant decision maker to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that Y is not right and you should to do X" with a confirmation in writing by the decision maker to save much effort and money because no one thought of the edge cases or hadn't updated the policy as technology changed or had cut and pasted without updating.
I am no longer surprised on what was once bolded, underlined, in red, and in extra large font that is no longer applicable and no one noticed for six months or a year because most people don't actually read all the instructions. My training leader is no longer surprised by the string of emails I send while doing annual training and has a couple times sent me materials before posting so I can provide feedback early enough to matter.
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:10:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 27, 2020, 06:05:23 AM
Quote from: downer on October 27, 2020, 06:00:30 AM
I do wonder what students learn in high school, or indeed any courses.
In response to an assignment to discuss the value of literature, a student gives as their example the lyrics from a One Direction song. In apparent sincerity.
And this is one of the better students in the class.
Well, some institutions (perhaps not yours) have played into this by "diversifying" their definitions of literature to include movies, popular music, etc. Especially modern, urban, etc.
I'm fine with including movies, pop music, and whatever. There are many great works in there. I'm not happy with someone who thinks that the lyrics of One Direction have any literary value.
Yeah, I have a digital painting project where the prompt is essentially just to try out making your own brushes in Photoshop and make a simple digital painting. Students are required to research three painters, two contemporary and one historical, and draw on those painters as a source of inspiration. It's a super-simple assignment to get students a bit familiar with some of the painting tools in Photoshop and to introduce them to the idea of basic research in creating art. One student came back with their final as almost a direct copy of this:
https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Wolf-howling-at-the-moon-by-SennoxDesign/49126312.NL9AC (https://www.redbubble.com/i/t-shirt/Wolf-howling-at-the-moon-by-SennoxDesign/49126312.NL9AC)
Not surprisingly this was the same student who refused to meet with me to discuss sketches (which they never turned in) and was otherwise non-communicative for several weeks. They were surprised to learn that plagiarism does indeed apply to the visual arts.
I wanted to reply to the post from last month about the student who skipped class to attend office hours and then wanted the office hour professor to verify the excuse and times, but I can't. Here's mine anyway:
Student in an online course emailed to ask if student could attend my in-person office hours, (our school is still on campus, so I offer both online and in person office hours). Yes, of course. I pointed out my existing hours (some in the morning, some in the mid-afternoon) and said that if those didn't work because of other commitments and classes, I could meet at any time on a different day.
Student showed up at office hours, with a friend (also in my class). Still fine. They had questions about their essays. Yay! We talked about essays and chatted for a bit. I remarked that I was surprised to see them, since I thought they had other morning classes. (Spoiler: they did).
Both students are not only in my class, but in my *dual enrollment* class. Their high school is having classes every day, and this was not a work-at home-day. Both students played hooky to come to my office hours.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on October 27, 2020, 08:44:06 AM
Both students played hooky to come to my office hours.
AR.
That's hilarious!
I detest grading formal lab reports. Why? A majority of the students do not READ the directions or follow the format. Not surprising. One of the requests that I have of students is that they LOOK at the files they turn in online to make sure they don't have any formatting errors. Do they do it? NOPE.
Student #1 has formatting errors AND over 300% error. Hmm.
This is just painful.
Edit: I just looked at another part of the lab and the student has 765% error...................
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 12:46:37 PM
I detest grading formal lab reports. Why? A majority of the students do not READ the directions or follow the format. Not surprising. One of the requests that I have of students is that they LOOK at the files they turn in online to make sure they don't have any formatting errors. Do they do it? NOPE.
Student #1 has formatting errors AND over 300% error. Hmm.
This is just painful.
Edit: I just looked at another part of the lab and the student has 765% error...................
At least it wasn't negative.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 12:46:37 PM
I detest grading formal lab reports. Why? A majority of the students do not READ the directions or follow the format. Not surprising. One of the requests that I have of students is that they LOOK at the files they turn in online to make sure they don't have any formatting errors. Do they do it? NOPE.
Student #1 has formatting errors AND over 300% error. Hmm.
This is just painful.
Edit: I just looked at another part of the lab and the student has 765% error...................
One time, in a HS physics lab exam, I had 1000+% error. I performed all the steps correctly, but... The teacher couldn't figure out what went wrong, so I re-did the exam under his supervision, repeating all the same steps I'd meticulously logged earlier. That time everything went smoothly, so he put it down to equipment failure. (I suspect it wasn't, but I have no idea what I did wrong.)
FWIW, my assignments come with a cover page of instructions. Not only does almost nobody follow them, but I get *many* students emailing me to ask what the assignment topics are. The answer is always the same: look at the second page.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 27, 2020, 02:25:24 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 12:46:37 PM
I detest grading formal lab reports. Why? A majority of the students do not READ the directions or follow the format. Not surprising. One of the requests that I have of students is that they LOOK at the files they turn in online to make sure they don't have any formatting errors. Do they do it? NOPE.
Student #1 has formatting errors AND over 300% error. Hmm.
This is just painful.
Edit: I just looked at another part of the lab and the student has 765% error...................
One time, in a HS physics lab exam, I had 1000+% error. I performed all the steps correctly, but... The teacher couldn't figure out what went wrong, so I re-did the exam under his supervision, repeating all the same steps I'd meticulously logged earlier. That time everything went smoothly, so he put it down to equipment failure. (I suspect it wasn't, but I have no idea what I did wrong.)
FWIW, my assignments come with a cover page of instructions. Not only does almost nobody follow them, but I get *many* students emailing me to ask what the assignment topics are. The answer is always the same: look at the second page.
The student made an egregious unit conversion error. It was just a simple time constant calculation (time constant = RC) where R = resistance and C = capacitance. Both values were GIVEN.
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
<facepalm>
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
How does one get an error rate greater than 100%? Am I missing something?
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I get it. Earlier this evening, I wrote a how-to guide on how to calculate natural log of a number on a calculator (students asked). I'm not kidding.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 27, 2020, 07:56:09 PM
How does one get an error rate greater than 100%? Am I missing something?
Yes, you can calculate a percent error over 100%. It's basically the difference between the measured and accepted values divided by the accepted value, then multiply by 100 to get a percentage. Typical error for an intro lab should be under 20%. If a student calculates a value that is multiple times the accepted value, then stu will get a very large percent error (over 100%). That is not a good sign.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 10:24:11 PM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I get it. Earlier this evening, I wrote a how-to guide on how to calculate natural log of a number on a calculator (students asked). I'm not kidding.
I had a student who had supposedly passed high school physics who couldn't handle the simple lens equation, i.e.
1/i + 1/o = 1/f
(for those unfamiliar with it).
Actually the number of STEM students who can't handle
fractions is non-negligible.
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
- 15, right?
And I'm in the arts...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on October 28, 2020, 05:59:24 AM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
- 15, right?
And I'm in the arts...
M.
This is an elementary school problem. Everyone who has passed the seventh grade ought to be able to do it and even lower grades should be able to do it if x is replaced by a blank and students are told to put 2 in the blank.
This is not advanced math in any sense of the term.
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I am curious- did you ask the student how stu got that answer?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 27, 2020, 07:56:09 PM
How does one get an error rate greater than 100%? Am I missing something?
Yes. You haven't had to supervise some of the recent high school graduates that I mentioned in my above post. They were quite capable of doing so.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
The student made an egregious unit conversion error. It was just a simple time constant calculation (time constant = RC) where R = resistance and C = capacitance. Both values were GIVEN.
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
That sort of very basic error doesn't happen only in academia. A high school classmate who went on to teach in a vo-tech school once had a student who used the wrong unit in adjusting a tool. He applied 16 times the torque needed to the bolts he was locking down. He sheared the heads off of all of them, one after another. You'd think he would have at least realized he'd made some kind of mistake after the first one.
Quote from: apl68 on October 28, 2020, 07:04:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
The student made an egregious unit conversion error. It was just a simple time constant calculation (time constant = RC) where R = resistance and C = capacitance. Both values were GIVEN.
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
That sort of very basic error doesn't happen only in academia. A high school classmate who went on to teach in a vo-tech school once had a student who used the wrong unit in adjusting a tool. He applied 16 times the torque needed to the bolts he was locking down. He sheared the heads off of all of them, one after another. You'd think he would have at least realized he'd made some kind of mistake after the first one.
Makes me think of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXRM3lFRwRI
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 28, 2020, 05:41:46 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 10:24:11 PM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I get it. Earlier this evening, I wrote a how-to guide on how to calculate natural log of a number on a calculator (students asked). I'm not kidding.
I had a student who had supposedly passed high school physics who couldn't handle the simple lens equation, i.e.
1/i + 1/o = 1/f
(for those unfamiliar with it).
Actually the number of STEM students who can't handle fractions is non-negligible.
Yep, and wait until you ask them to ADD or MULTIPLY those fractions!
I have a lesson designed to teach students about WHEN to add vs multiply for calculating probabilities.
But I also have to get a fresher about HOW to add and HOW to multiply fractions.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 28, 2020, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 28, 2020, 05:41:46 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 10:24:11 PM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I get it. Earlier this evening, I wrote a how-to guide on how to calculate natural log of a number on a calculator (students asked). I'm not kidding.
I had a student who had supposedly passed high school physics who couldn't handle the simple lens equation, i.e.
1/i + 1/o = 1/f
(for those unfamiliar with it).
Actually the number of STEM students who can't handle fractions is non-negligible.
Yep, and wait until you ask them to ADD or MULTIPLY those fractions!
I have a lesson designed to teach students about WHEN to add vs multiply for calculating probabilities.
But I also have to get a fresher about HOW to add and HOW to multiply fractions.
It's really sad. Somehow, they missed out on those lessons, didn't have good teachers, or who knows what? I've had questions in Physics II lectures asking me how I got common denominators............
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 28, 2020, 06:57:32 AM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I am curious- did you ask the student how stu got that answer?
They forgot or didn't notice the minus sign, did 8 divided by 2 instead of times 2, and then added 1.
With prompting they were able to get that -8*2 = -16. But then we went to add 1 and things went astray again.
"-17?"
I draw a number line with -17, -16, -15, and explain how because we are adding instead of subtracting we are going in the positive direction.
"Oh so it's positive 17?"
Quote from: kiana on October 28, 2020, 07:11:03 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 28, 2020, 06:57:32 AM
Quote from: kiana on October 27, 2020, 07:34:50 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 27, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
This student is, unfortunately, one of those students who really does not know what is going on (I have had numerous conversations with stu) and I feel bad for the student, but MAN oh MAN, does this student make me want to bang my head- and not in a good way.
I've got one of those too. A recent interaction:
Me: So if f(x) = -8x + 1, what is f(2)?
Student: 5?
This is not a developmental class. This is college algebra.
I am curious- did you ask the student how stu got that answer?
They forgot or didn't notice the minus sign, did 8 divided by 2 instead of times 2, and then added 1.
With prompting they were able to get that -8*2 = -16. But then we went to add 1 and things went astray again.
"-17?"
I draw a number line with -17, -16, -15, and explain how because we are adding instead of subtracting we are going in the positive direction.
"Oh so it's positive 17?"
Wow. Was stu just guessing? Sometimes I wonder if they're thinking or just guessing.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 28, 2020, 07:27:24 PM
Wow. Was stu just guessing? Sometimes I wonder if they're thinking or just guessing.
I really think they might have dyscalculia although as far as I know there are no accommodations on file. They have submitted handwritten work and it is complete nonsense. Numbers, variables, and operations drift randomly around the page so that while it bears some superficial resemblance to the examples it is utterly meaningless.
Six emails from one student who was dropped for non-attendance in first week of 8-week class. All within a 62-minute span between 5:15 and 6:18 p.m. Tuesday. Within the six messages, I was informed:
(1) She didn't miss class (it's online, and there's no record of any log-in at all during the first 10 days before she was dropped.
(2) She did all the assignments in Google Docs because she doesn't have Word. (Huh?)
(3) She couldn't log in because her phone doesn't have Windows.
(4) Her computer was running slow and she couldn't do her work.
(5) She bought a new computer and can't get it to turn on.
(6) She can't afford a computer and has never owned one and can't buy one now (sent AFTER #5).
(7) "you nead do sum about my asingmets" [verbatim]
The first five emails included the same line ("may you plez putt me in my clas"), so I guess that makes everything OK. (The class is an 8-week Comp I.)
Thud.
Quote from: AmLitHist on October 30, 2020, 08:17:30 AM
Six emails from one student who was dropped for non-attendance in first week of 8-week class. All within a 62-minute span between 5:15 and 6:18 p.m. Tuesday. Within the six messages, I was informed:
(1) She didn't miss class (it's online, and there's no record of any log-in at all during the first 10 days before she was dropped.
(2) She did all the assignments in Google Docs because she doesn't have Word. (Huh?)
(3) She couldn't log in because her phone doesn't have Windows.
(4) Her computer was running slow and she couldn't do her work.
(5) She bought a new computer and can't get it to turn on.
(6) She can't afford a computer and has never owned one and can't buy one now (sent AFTER #5).
(7) "you nead do sum about my asingmets" [verbatim]
The first five emails included the same line ("may you plez putt me in my clas"), so I guess that makes everything OK. (The class is an 8-week Comp I.)
Thud.
For some reason, these kinds of emails always bother me. I wonder if the student is having some kind of emotional or mental breakdown, if the student really just doesn't understand what is happening around them, if the College hasn't really informed them about being purged and the consequences of being purged, etc. I find such confusion of the mind a little disturbing, and very sad.
That said, I wouldn't really touch the emails with a ten-foot pole, but might tell her to call Admissions or her advisor for further guidance since you can't readmit her into the class.
I would flag this student to the advisor, Dean of Students, and/or Student health. Whomever is appropriate at your college.This is clearly a much bigger issue than just your course.
Agreed: the issue is that this student is on the (so far) 16-year plan, with only 15 credit hours and an 0.73 GPA to show for it. She has dropped 28 classes over the years, and earned D/F in another 22, according to Navigate. That's a personal high for me: I've never had a student with that kind of D/F/W record, though a colleague beat it a couple of years back.
I initially talked to counseling and our disabilities offices, both of whom immediately knew her. Apparently she's been trying to scam both of them over the years to get accommodations and services, with no basis for any special treatment according to testing, her physicians, etc. As I was talking to the lead counselor a bit, I was reminded that I had to deal with this student on a faculty member's behalf, way back when I was chair in 2009-11.
She likes us. She really, really likes us. And since the checks keep clearing (she has to be self-paid, with such a low completion rate and progress to degree), Admin keeps taking her money.
Oh, Lordy. AmLitHist, I offer you the drink of your choice.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 30, 2020, 02:10:24 PM
Oh, Lordy. AmLitHist, I offer you the drink of your choice.
I'm on Eastern time and it's past 5:00 PM here, so I'll start drinking until AmLitHist has access. Just another service I offer.
I wonder if a college has ever been sued for taking advantage of students with disabilities (diagnosed or not)--of taking students' money even though they clearly lack the ability to succeed.
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
Quote from: FishProf on November 01, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
Figure out the average score and then assign it to everyone? =p
Quote from: FishProf on November 01, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
Is there any way to trace them using your IT Department? That might be too much of a hassle though.
One of my early class announcements is that I auction off any unsigned work, and that the good ones go high.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 01, 2020, 08:25:56 PM
Quote from: FishProf on November 01, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
Is there any way to trace them using your IT Department? That might be too much of a hassle though.
I could figure it out. By why would I do that?
Quote from: FishProf on November 02, 2020, 03:55:58 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 01, 2020, 08:25:56 PM
Quote from: FishProf on November 01, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
Is there any way to trace them using your IT Department? That might be too much of a hassle though.
I could figure it out. By why would I do that?
That looks like a learning opportunity for many folks on dealing with the zero.
In my science writing course, students must complete a unit on paraphrasing and plagiarism. They must take a quiz about these topics and earn a score of 100% to be able to submit their papers. This all happens the week before the paper is due.
And yet, I just completed filling out the misconduct form for THREE students in this class with blatant, egregious plagiarism. One has a Turnitin matching score of 85%! Another retained the references from the original sources in the sentence text, but of course did not reference those papers in her references list.
Stu is taking my class, a requirement for his major, for the second time. The first time he stopped showing up about midway through, didn't answer emails expressing concern over his grade, and he failed the course. He's enrolled in it again, his attendance is sporadic, and his current grade is quickly reaching the point where passing may not be numerically possible. He still doesn't respond to emails or flags in our system. But, he has been going to a tutor. On the last tutor log I received about him (students can indicate whether they want their professors to know they're going to a tutor, or not), it said he was there to receive help preparing for an upcoming practical quiz. He then proceeded to skip class the day of the practical and didn't respond to my "Dear Stu, you missed the practical, here's how you can make it up," email. **sigh** If he fails again, he'll have to petition to take it for a third time.
Why do you keep trying to schedule late night lab sections paired with an 8:00am lecture?!
Students hate them, TAs hate them, I hate dealing with the emails from the TAs and students that hate these lab times.
Late evening lab times are always the last to fill and the hardest to find TAs to teach.
Yes, classes are online, but they are synchronous. No one wants to have lab until 10:00pm and then have lecture at 8:00am.
Can we PLEASE double-up on the lab times that are popular?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 03, 2020, 08:55:58 AM
Why do you keep trying to schedule late night lab sections paired with an 8:00am lecture?!
Students hate them, TAs hate them, I hate dealing with the emails from the TAs and students that hate these lab times.
Late evening lab times are always the last to fill and the hardest to find TAs to teach.
Yes, classes are online, but they are synchronous. No one wants to have lab until 10:00pm and then have lecture at 8:00am.
Can we PLEASE double-up on the lab times that are popular?
Or at least pair unpopular lecture slots with popular lab slots and vice versa?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 03, 2020, 08:55:58 AM
Why do you keep trying to schedule late night lab sections paired with an 8:00am lecture?!
Students hate them, TAs hate them, I hate dealing with the emails from the TAs and students that hate these lab times.
Late evening lab times are always the last to fill and the hardest to find TAs to teach.
Yes, classes are online, but they are synchronous. No one wants to have lab until 10:00pm and then have lecture at 8:00am.
Can we PLEASE double-up on the lab times that are popular?
That's just weird, even if you were teaching astronomy where late nights are standard.
Although, I'll have to say that I didn't care much more for the "lecture at 10 AM, lab runs that night from 7-9 PM" combo that I ended up with one year as an undergrad. I much preferred terms where we had labs in the morning and lectures mid afternoon.
Quote from: polly_mer on November 04, 2020, 04:55:15 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 03, 2020, 08:55:58 AM
Why do you keep trying to schedule late night lab sections paired with an 8:00am lecture?!
Students hate them, TAs hate them, I hate dealing with the emails from the TAs and students that hate these lab times.
Late evening lab times are always the last to fill and the hardest to find TAs to teach.
Yes, classes are online, but they are synchronous. No one wants to have lab until 10:00pm and then have lecture at 8:00am.
Can we PLEASE double-up on the lab times that are popular?
That's just weird, even if you were teaching astronomy where late nights are standard.
Although, I'll have to say that I didn't care much more for the "lecture at 10 AM, lab runs that night from 7-9 PM" combo that I ended up with one year as an undergrad. I much preferred terms where we had labs in the morning and lectures mid afternoon.
It's a huge class so we normally have 6 lab sections every day, sometimes more. I just hate that the way registration works the preferred lab times are reserved for the Learning Communities. The students who are academically behind or needing to repeat the class get last choice of lab sections. It's particularly hard on commuters. I wish they would "spread the pain" and make the LC students take an occasional evening lab.
But since we're online, I got my wish! We doubled up on the popular lab slots & eliminated the late labs!
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 03, 2020, 08:55:58 AM
Why do you keep trying to schedule late night lab sections paired with an 8:00am lecture?!
Students hate them, TAs hate them, I hate dealing with the emails from the TAs and students that hate these lab times.
Late evening lab times are always the last to fill and the hardest to find TAs to teach.
Yes, classes are online, but they are synchronous. No one wants to have lab until 10:00pm and then have lecture at 8:00am.
Can we PLEASE double-up on the lab times that are popular?
We mostly stopped offering 8am, remote classes on my campus this semester, because students just weren't signing up for them, and we predicted atrocious attendance.
But our late night, remote classes are doing very well with both enrollments and attendance, so we're keeping those courses on the books next term.
Quote from: Aster on November 04, 2020, 11:00:47 AM
We mostly stopped offering 8am, remote classes on my campus this semester, because students just weren't signing up for them, and we predicted atrocious attendance.
But our late night, remote classes are doing very well with both enrollments and attendance, so we're keeping those courses on the books next term.
My 8 a.m. class this semester has had far better attendance and retention than my noon class (same course). I've asked for all morning classes next semester.
AR
[/quote]
My 8 a.m. class this semester has had far better attendance and retention than my noon class (same course). I've asked for all morning classes next semester.
AR
[/quote]
I've observed this in my classes over time too. I hypothesize that the early classes attract the go-getters and the people who actually want to be there. (Okay, also those for whom it's the only section that fits their schedule.)
The worst time slot I've observed is 11am. Classes meeting in that time slot appear to attract the slackers and partiers and those who are only in college because their parents made them enroll.
Of course there are plenty of exceptions to both of these, but that's the impression I've gotten. I always ask for morning classes too, saying, "The earlier, the better".
My favorite time to teach is 9:00am. It gives me a small window of time to do any last-minute class prep and it's over well before lunch. My least favorite time to teach is after 5:00pm. My brain officially shuts off about 5:00 and all I want to think about is non-work stuff like cooking.
Quote from: Larimar on November 04, 2020, 02:50:24 PM
Quote
My 8 a.m. class this semester has had far better attendance and retention than my noon class (same course). I've asked for all morning classes next semester.
AR
I've observed this in my classes over time too. I hypothesize that the early classes attract the go-getters and the people who actually want to be there. (Okay, also those for whom it's the only section that fits their schedule.)
The worst time slot I've observed is 11am. Classes meeting in that time slot appear to attract the slackers and partiers and those who are only in college because their parents made them enroll.
Of course there are plenty of exceptions to both of these, but that's the impression I've gotten. I always ask for morning classes too, saying, "The earlier, the better".
Yep. My first semester teaching I had a mid-day class. "So, why are you taking this class?"
Um, it's not too early in the morning.
In my early days of teaching, my supervisors loved me because I always volunteered for the early classes. My children had to be at the bus stop at 7am, so teaching early morning through very early afternoon allowed me to get home in time for them to come home from school. And yes, my 8:00 and 9:00 classes were usually quite good, as they tended to attract eager beavers and morning people. But of course, I also had the sleepyheads who couldn't get into a later section.
Quote from: cathwen on November 05, 2020, 07:26:33 AM
In my early days of teaching, my supervisors loved me because I always volunteered for the early classes. My children had to be at the bus stop at 7am, so teaching early morning through very early afternoon allowed me to get home in time for them to come home from school. And yes, my 8:00 and 9:00 classes were usually quite good, as they tended to attract eager beavers and morning people. But of course, I also had the sleepyheads who couldn't get into a later section.
I love early classes. A few years ago, I taught at a school in a large urban area that offered 6 a.m. and 7 a.m. classes. I was asked if I would be willing to teach one of these, and I agreed, figuring that I would get nontraditional students who wanted to finish class and commute to work.
Nope.
I had two proactive commuters and a whole host of the "sleepyheads who couldn't get into a later section." Attendance dropped alarmingly after Week 3.
AR.
One of the best classes I ever taught began at 6:30 am. There were only 12 students to start off, and this dwindled to 8 or 9 as the semester progressed. Those 8 or 9 students, however, were morning people and/or go-getters, and were awake and participating. We had great discussions.
This did mean I had to get up at 4 am, but I'm a morning person too (less so of late...), and I liked seeing the sun rise in the cool, crisp mornings, and commute to campus in virtually no traffic and always get the best parking spot when I got there.
That semester was a dream.
Larimar
Quote from: FishProf on November 01, 2020, 07:24:09 PM
How, dear students, do you expect me to give you the points for a lab that does not have your name on it anywhere? Not in the document. Not in the file name.
Think McFly! What am I gonna do with 30 labs all labelled "lab 3" with no names?
I wish the LMS would let me enforce rules on file names. Maximum number of characters, no periods, etc.
Moodle allows the instructor to restrict file types and sizes for each assignment but not file names. It also adds "firstname_lastname_code#_assignsubmission_file_" to the beginning of each file name. It's good to have the student's name in there, but I once had a file submission with a path length so long that I couldn't copy it from one folder to another on my computer until I changed the file name.
I guess I could set a policy on file names and make it part of the scoring for the assignment.
Quote from: Biologist_ link=topic=72.msg50432#msg50432 date=
I guess I could set a policy on file names and make it part of the scoring for the assignment.
I strongly recommend doing so. Save your sanity. Teach a useful lesson. Win-win.
Damn it student! What part of "using your knowledge from today's class, explain [how to build a purple basket]".
Copying and pasting definitions of "purple" or "baskets" from Wikipedia is:
1. academic dishonesty
2. not even a valid answer
Congratulations! You've earned a 0 and my intense scrutiny of the rest of your assignments this term.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 05, 2020, 02:01:44 PM
Damn it student! What part of "using your knowledge from today's class, explain [how to build a purple basket]".
Copying and pasting definitions of "purple" or "baskets" from Wikipedia is:
1. academic dishonesty
2. not even a valid answer
Congratulations! You've earned a 0 and my intense scrutiny of the rest of your assignments this term.
As artificial intelligence gets better at parsing language, organic stupidity gets worse, by basically just doing a keyword search.
Yes. Technology is supposed to augment, not substitute. Hence the designation "dumber than a box of hammers".
Dear student, it's less than optimal when you ask in the afternoon me for a LOR that you need that same day. It's worse when you ask me if I can find another LOR writer for you. Then it turns out it's not actually needed for the same day. I'd had same-day LOR requests before, but never including recruiting another LOR writer.
*unrelated*
Dear other student, yeah, I sent you the forms for you to, you know, fill them in. I explained what they're for and everything, so I'm not sure why there would be any confusion. I don't go around randomly sending forms to people for the sheer hell of it.
What the hell are my Astronomy students smoking? This is 'baby' Astronomy. Simple Astronomy.
Gimme Question: "List the four main layers of Earth's atmosphere. In which layer does weather occur?"
Student#1 response: "Magnetosphere, crust, hydrosphere. Atmosphere is where weather occurs."
Student #2 response: "Mantle, crust, inner core, outer core. Crust is where weather occurs."
I don't think I'm asking for too much here. Am I?
Well, to no.. 2, I suppose tectonic plate movement is a kind of weather...I mean, stuff moves around, you know?
Just, like, very slowly. In the crust.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on November 06, 2020, 10:59:08 PM
Well, to no.. 2, I suppose tectonic plate movement is a kind of weather...I mean, stuff moves around, you know?
Just, like, very slowly. In the crust.
M.
:)
Maybe some of these students confused "astronomy" with "geology?"
Quote from: apl68 on November 07, 2020, 06:36:16 AM
Maybe some of these students confused "astronomy" with "geology?"
I think it more likely that the students memorized something in Nth grade science and blindly repeat back the memory when prompted by the similar prompt.
I was amazed the first time I encountered a student who could give a fabulous oral overview of certain topics in general science, but were unable to write a coherent paragraph on other topics including What I Did Last Summer. I am no longer amazed because it tends to correlate with having had a teacher at some point who made the student essentially memorize the overview verbatim without any effort to teach them the actual scientific thinking or material beyond the fabulous overview.
One of the biggest frustrations I had while trying to teach elementary science to aspiring K-8 teachers and those who wanted the "easiest" gen ed lab course was getting people to let go of those carefully memorized isolated bits in favor of new material, let alone actual scientific thinking.
Every term, we spent much of the term (even beyond the physics unit) reinforcing the difference between velocity and acceleration, difference between mass and weight, and the observable effects of gravity (the big one being that shape of an object is important to falling speed on Earth while weight doesn't matter at all because of air resistance). When I asked the question using exactly the same words that the students memorized, almost everyone got it right almost every time.
When I used slightly different words, most of the time the students picked the standard fallacy instead of the simple restatement of the observable science, even when we had done many activities so they could observe for themselves. I continue to wonder how people can't learn from their own direct experience, but some people cannot and will pick a comfortable remembered (even when inapplicable) response over applying something new.
They have to think too hard to think.
M.
A grade grubbing student answers a multiple choice question one way but then in part of the answer to an essay question (just 2 questions later) says the exact opposite. Do students not remember what they said 2 minutes ago?
Quote from: Anon1787 on November 08, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
A grade grubbing student answers a multiple choice question one way but then in part of the answer to an essay question (just 2 questions later) says the exact opposite. Do students not remember what they said 2 minutes ago?
I've seen this so many times I can't hardly even roll my eyes at it anymore. Did you
read that answer you just wrote down?
Quote from: sprout on November 08, 2020, 03:41:13 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on November 08, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
A grade grubbing student answers a multiple choice question one way but then in part of the answer to an essay question (just 2 questions later) says the exact opposite. Do students not remember what they said 2 minutes ago?
I've seen this so many times I can't hardly even roll my eyes at it anymore. Did you read that answer you just wrote down?
Nope.
In a handwritten test I will often use (for example) the same quadratic in different parts of the test. If they're paying enough attention to realize that they've just factored it for one, they don't HAVE to redo the whole thing. About 10% notice and those are usually getting A's.
If they do corrections (I usually allow this for fractional points) about 25% realize on the corrections.
Dear Stu
You dropped 3 courses and have a D or an F in the remaining 2. I really don't think a double major PLUS a minor is in the cards for your immediate future as you work your way to becoming a cardiac surgeon.
Dr Artem
Dear Grad Student,
You earned a C on this assignment because because you were not paying attention. No, I am not going to spend 10 hours creating another version of this assignment so you can do the assignment again. I gave you the opportunity to do the assignment correctly the first time. Please do let me know what my chair says when you tell them how mean I am.
Dr. OMY
Quote from: Anon1787 on November 08, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
A grade grubbing student answers a multiple choice question one way but then in part of the answer to an essay question (just 2 questions later) says the exact opposite. Do students not remember what they said 2 minutes ago?
Some students remember exactly what they wrote and are hedging their bets because they noticed the questions are similar, but they don't actually know the correct answer. At least, that was the answer students gave when I asked the direct question of "how did you know the answer here, but not there?"
Those students were proud of their strategy in getting at least one answer right, even though they didn't know the material. I started requiring explanations for multiple guess and T/F answers to limit the ability to hedge that way. Most students were appreciative of the opportunity to get partial credit by having a good explanation of a not-quite-right answer. The hedgers were not at all happy.
Dear Stu,
No, you cannot resubmit your work from earlier in the semester because you just now, when you noticed you were close to failing, got around to reading the feedback on the grading rubrics and "hadn't realized you were doing [thing] wrong on multiple assignments." Also, every dropbox page reminds students to do [thing]. You can still pass if you do the rest of the work correctly this semester.
All the best,
Dr. Mode
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 08, 2020, 05:39:37 PM
Dear Grad Student,
You earned a C on this assignment because because you were not paying attention. No, I am not going to spend 10 hours creating another version of this assignment so you can do the assignment again. I gave you the opportunity to do the assignment correctly the first time. Please do let me know what my chair says when you tell them how mean I am.
Dr. OMY
Yeah, buddy. I'm teaching at the freshizzle level, and apparently I'm inflicting the same kind of meanness on my hapless students--or at least those students who took a four-week absence in the middle of the semester and now have "no idea at all what's going on." I'm pretty cool, but even I can't recreate lost time.
How. The. Fuck. Do you get into a college algebra class and not understand how to round.
I understand occasional "Oh damnit I feel dumb now" errors. I understand not reading the directions and rounding to the wrong place.
But literally not understanding how to round 4.71 to the nearest tenth?
Them: Is it 4.8?
Me: So the number after 7 is 1. Is 1 smaller or bigger than 5?
Them: Smaller (thank goodness).
Me: So does it round up or down?
Them: So it's ... 3?
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:02:40 AM
How. The. Fuck. Do you get into a college algebra class and not understand how to round.
I understand occasional "Oh damnit I feel dumb now" errors. I understand not reading the directions and rounding to the wrong place.
But literally not understanding how to round 4.71 to the nearest tenth?
Them: Is it 4.8?
Me: So the number after 7 is 1. Is 1 smaller or bigger than 5?
Them: Smaller (thank goodness).
Me: So does it round up or down?
Them: So it's ... 3?
I wonder if this person went to the same school as one of my students years ago who submitted a problem set that was just bizarrely wrong.
I asked the student to show me how she entered the numbers on her calculator. She replied, "Oh, I didn't do that; I just guessed". She...just...guessed on math computations. Didn't estimate. Didn't round. Didn't have an entry error. Didn't fail on order of operations. Didn't misread the questions.
She...just...guessed random numbers for basic arithmetic. The point of the assignment was to establish where the math skills were before we jumped into unit conversions because I'm accustomed to having to teach order of operations and even how to use a scientific calculator.
She...just...guessed numbers with no estimate on order of magnitude.
I got nothing for someone who refuses to believe that math is a thing.
Quote from: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 10:11:34 AM
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:02:40 AM
How. The. Fuck. Do you get into a college algebra class and not understand how to round.
I understand occasional "Oh damnit I feel dumb now" errors. I understand not reading the directions and rounding to the wrong place.
But literally not understanding how to round 4.71 to the nearest tenth?
Them: Is it 4.8?
Me: So the number after 7 is 1. Is 1 smaller or bigger than 5?
Them: Smaller (thank goodness).
Me: So does it round up or down?
Them: So it's ... 3?
I wonder if this person went to the same school as one of my students years ago who submitted a problem set that was just bizarrely wrong.
I asked the student to show me how she entered the numbers on her calculator. She replied, "Oh, I didn't do that; I just guessed". She...just...guessed on math computations. Didn't estimate. Didn't round. Didn't have an entry error. Didn't fail on order of operations. Didn't misread the questions.
She...just...guessed random numbers for basic arithmetic. The point of the assignment was to establish where the math skills were before we jumped into unit conversions because I'm accustomed to having to teach order of operations and even how to use a scientific calculator.
She...just...guessed numbers with no estimate on order of magnitude.
I got nothing for someone who refuses to believe that math is a thing.
I am so grateful to my first college physics professor who made us estimate "how big" our answer should be. Like, how big is the fountain in the main square? Should your answer be closer to 10 meters squared or 1 kilometer squared?
Same for a graduate microbiology class where the professor said "There is no such thing as 'luck' in genetics. If you have 10X more positive examples than you estimated, you didn't get 'lucky', you made a bad assumption. Find it!"
I know that logic is a learned skill and that estimations are part logic & part experience, but I've heard some doozies too.
And yet there are folks who work in construction and have had no formal math past grade school who can frame a house, tell you exactly how much cement you'll need to pour a pathway, or determine how many gallons of paint you'll need to repaint your living room. I bet a lot of our students would benefit from some "real life" apprenticeships with construction companies.
Upon inspection of my post history I also posted about them about 2 weeks ago.
I really think they're dyscalculic and what I want to know is how the hell they got placed into this class.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 09, 2020, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 08, 2020, 05:39:37 PM
Dear Grad Student,
You earned a C on this assignment because because you were not paying attention. No, I am not going to spend 10 hours creating another version of this assignment so you can do the assignment again. I gave you the opportunity to do the assignment correctly the first time. Please do let me know what my chair says when you tell them how mean I am.
Dr. OMY
Yeah, buddy. I'm teaching at the freshizzle level, and apparently I'm inflicting the same kind of meanness on my hapless students--or at least those students who took a four-week absence in the middle of the semester and now have "no idea at all what's going on." I'm pretty cool, but even I can't recreate lost time.
Maybe we should add this as a required skill for tenure-track job applicants. It would certainly make the applicant pool more manageable. I think upper-administration would approve of this requirement as being "student-centered."
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 09, 2020, 10:36:20 AM
I am so grateful to my first college physics professor who made us estimate "how big" our answer should be. Like, how big is the fountain in the main square? Should your answer be closer to 10 meters squared or 1 kilometer squared?
Same for a graduate microbiology class where the professor said "There is no such thing as 'luck' in genetics. If you have 10X more positive examples than you estimated, you didn't get 'lucky', you made a bad assumption. Find it!"
I know that logic is a learned skill and that estimations are part logic & part experience, but I've heard some doozies too.
And yet there are folks who work in construction and have had no formal math past grade school who can frame a house, tell you exactly how much cement you'll need to pour a pathway, or determine how many gallons of paint you'll need to repaint your living room. I bet a lot of our students would benefit from some "real life" apprenticeships with construction companies.
When I teach engineering cost estimating, I use a made-up term I call "the reasonableness factor." If they're trying to calculate the cost of machine time per part, is $1.2 million even reasonable? How about $1.20? Or 12 cents? Just because the calculator, or the spreadsheet, gave you an answer, doesn't mean it's anywhere close to correct. Check and see if it's reasonable.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 09, 2020, 12:12:12 PM
When I teach engineering cost estimating, I use a made-up term I call "the reasonableness factor." If they're trying to calculate the cost of machine time per part, is $1.2 million even reasonable? How about $1.20? Or 12 cents? Just because the calculator, or the spreadsheet, gave you an answer, doesn't mean it's anywhere close to correct. Check and see if it's reasonable.
I call this the JAR check; Just Ain't Right.
And if you fail the JAR check you aren't eligible for partial credit.
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 12:31:36 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 09, 2020, 12:12:12 PM
When I teach engineering cost estimating, I use a made-up term I call "the reasonableness factor." If they're trying to calculate the cost of machine time per part, is $1.2 million even reasonable? How about $1.20? Or 12 cents? Just because the calculator, or the spreadsheet, gave you an answer, doesn't mean it's anywhere close to correct. Check and see if it's reasonable.
I call this the JAR check; Just Ain't Right.
And if you fail the JAR check you aren't eligible for partial credit.
Absolutely. A little note along the lines of "I don't know what went wrong and I'm out of time, but this can't be the answer because <it just ain't right>" tended to go a long way towards partial credit for a failed calculation that was an entry error, flipped digits, or missed sign.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 09, 2020, 10:36:20 AM
Quote from: polly_mer on November 09, 2020, 10:11:34 AM
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:02:40 AM
How. The. Fuck. Do you get into a college algebra class and not understand how to round.
I understand occasional "Oh damnit I feel dumb now" errors. I understand not reading the directions and rounding to the wrong place.
But literally not understanding how to round 4.71 to the nearest tenth?
Them: Is it 4.8?
Me: So the number after 7 is 1. Is 1 smaller or bigger than 5?
Them: Smaller (thank goodness).
Me: So does it round up or down?
Them: So it's ... 3?
I wonder if this person went to the same school as one of my students years ago who submitted a problem set that was just bizarrely wrong.
I asked the student to show me how she entered the numbers on her calculator. She replied, "Oh, I didn't do that; I just guessed". She...just...guessed on math computations. Didn't estimate. Didn't round. Didn't have an entry error. Didn't fail on order of operations. Didn't misread the questions.
She...just...guessed random numbers for basic arithmetic. The point of the assignment was to establish where the math skills were before we jumped into unit conversions because I'm accustomed to having to teach order of operations and even how to use a scientific calculator.
She...just...guessed numbers with no estimate on order of magnitude.
I got nothing for someone who refuses to believe that math is a thing.
I am so grateful to my first college physics professor who made us estimate "how big" our answer should be. Like, how big is the fountain in the main square? Should your answer be closer to 10 meters squared or 1 kilometer squared?
Same for a graduate microbiology class where the professor said "There is no such thing as 'luck' in genetics. If you have 10X more positive examples than you estimated, you didn't get 'lucky', you made a bad assumption. Find it!"
I know that logic is a learned skill and that estimations are part logic & part experience, but I've heard some doozies too.
And yet there are folks who work in construction and have had no formal math past grade school who can frame a house, tell you exactly how much cement you'll need to pour a pathway, or determine how many gallons of paint you'll need to repaint your living room. I bet a lot of our students would benefit from some "real life" apprenticeships with construction companies.
Reminds me of a spring break mission trip I participated in one year while I was in grad school. Some of the undergrads I was with were engineering majors. They brought their HP engineering calculators and pulled them out when we were planning out our week's construction projects. I and another student who actually had construction experience just figured in our heads. Guess who got the figures right?
On one occasion I and another student with relevant experience did a quick calculation that we needed 20 bags of sack-crete to pour a short stretch of walk for a wheelchair. We sent the others off to fetch the necessary materials. They came back with eight bags. They had figured that we didn't need 20 bags. We had to send them back for the other 12, all of which we did in fact end up needing.
And I had to mix 20 bags of sack-crete by hand because nobody else had the experience to do it.
Quote from: polly_mer on November 08, 2020, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on November 08, 2020, 03:29:18 PM
A grade grubbing student answers a multiple choice question one way but then in part of the answer to an essay question (just 2 questions later) says the exact opposite. Do students not remember what they said 2 minutes ago?
Some students remember exactly what they wrote and are hedging their bets because they noticed the questions are similar, but they don't actually know the correct answer. At least, that was the answer students gave when I asked the direct question of "how did you know the answer here, but not there?"
Those students were proud of their strategy in getting at least one answer right, even though they didn't know the material. I started requiring explanations for multiple guess and T/F answers to limit the ability to hedge that way. Most students were appreciative of the opportunity to get partial credit by having a good explanation of a not-quite-right answer. The hedgers were not at all happy.
I learned that the student is on track to become an education major. So if Stu becomes a teacher, Stu can teach that exam strategy and the fine art of grade grubbing to Stu's own students!
Quote
And yet there are folks who work in construction and have had no formal math past grade school who can frame a house, tell you exactly how much cement you'll need to pour a pathway, or determine how many gallons of paint you'll need to repaint your living room. I bet a lot of our students would benefit from some "real life" apprenticeships with construction companies.
This reminds me of the year-end assignment in my sixth grade math class: Build a swimming pool. We were given the dimensions, and then had to calculate how much of one building material, how much of another, and so on, and how much water it would hold. I can't remember all the details (that was about 60 years ago), but I do remember how hard I worked on it. And I remember the debriefing after we handed our papers in, which included a little lecture about how math actually applies to life.
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Upon inspection of my post history I also posted about them about 2 weeks ago.
I really think they're dyscalculic and what I want to know is how the hell they got placed into this class.
If stu has the $$$, then the Registrar puts them in whatever class they want. I've had students in Calc-based Physics who only had Algebra!- no Precal even!!!
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 12:31:36 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 09, 2020, 12:12:12 PM
When I teach engineering cost estimating, I use a made-up term I call "the reasonableness factor." If they're trying to calculate the cost of machine time per part, is $1.2 million even reasonable? How about $1.20? Or 12 cents? Just because the calculator, or the spreadsheet, gave you an answer, doesn't mean it's anywhere close to correct. Check and see if it's reasonable.
I call this the JAR check; Just Ain't Right.
And if you fail the JAR check you aren't eligible for partial credit.
We call it a 'Sanity Check.'
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 10, 2020, 08:29:44 AM
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Upon inspection of my post history I also posted about them about 2 weeks ago.
I really think they're dyscalculic and what I want to know is how the hell they got placed into this class.
If stu has the $$$, then the Registrar puts them in whatever class they want. I've had students in Calc-based Physics who only had Algebra!- no Precal even!!!
That sounds . . . not in the best interest of the student. Were you required to pass them? Or could you hold the line?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 10, 2020, 08:35:12 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 10, 2020, 08:29:44 AM
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Upon inspection of my post history I also posted about them about 2 weeks ago.
I really think they're dyscalculic and what I want to know is how the hell they got placed into this class.
If stu has the $$$, then the Registrar puts them in whatever class they want. I've had students in Calc-based Physics who only had Algebra!- no Precal even!!!
That sounds . . . not in the best interest of the student. Were you required to pass them? Or could you hold the line?
Not required to pass. When I realized the Registrar was doing this with transient students, I started polling my classes about how much Math they had. It was eye-opening to say the least. How the hell are you supposed to get through basic Physics if you don't know basic trig functions?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 10, 2020, 10:03:56 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 10, 2020, 08:35:12 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 10, 2020, 08:29:44 AM
Quote from: kiana on November 09, 2020, 10:51:09 AM
Upon inspection of my post history I also posted about them about 2 weeks ago.
I really think they're dyscalculic and what I want to know is how the hell they got placed into this class.
If stu has the $$$, then the Registrar puts them in whatever class they want. I've had students in Calc-based Physics who only had Algebra!- no Precal even!!!
That sounds . . . not in the best interest of the student. Were you required to pass them? Or could you hold the line?
Not required to pass. When I realized the Registrar was doing this with transient students, I started polling my classes about how much Math they had. It was eye-opening to say the least. How the hell are you supposed to get through basic Physics if you don't know basic trig functions?
I don't know. I'm required to teach stats to students who cannot add single digit numbers, so let me know if you figure this out.
My solution to large numbers of students who simply did not have the background was to leave the classroom instead of trying to do an impossible job.
It's one reason why I really like teaching beginning algebra. Even if they don't know arithmetic, they're somewhere within shouting distance of the course materials.
Banging my head on the wall.
TWO Physics students turned in 'formal' lab reports using the lab template (which is just a doc file for their data. results, etc.) even though it states in all caps AND is highlighted to NOT turn the template in as a formal lab report.
Ugh!
Gah! Friggin grad students! What could you possibly be thinking when you decided to plagiarize this small stakes assignment? This is a scaffolded assignment. The point of this part is to write an initial draft can so you can get feedback for the next draft. Now, I've got to have meetings to figure out what to do with both of you.
Dear We-thought-you-wouldn't-notice students -
If we set the Discussion submission rules such that you must post before you can see other students contributions, that is because we want you to think about the prompt and come up with your own individualized response. Submitting a blank (or nonsense) response with the plan to edit it after you have seen the other contributions is academic misconduct. Fortunately, we turned off the edit option, so we now have a record of both your first submission and the second one you crafted after seeing what other students wrote. We will grade based on that first submission. Welcome to the world of zeros.
Sincerely,
Prof I-wasn't-born-yesterday.
Quote from: arcturus on November 11, 2020, 06:45:18 PM
Dear We-thought-you-wouldn't-notice students -
If we set the Discussion submission rules such that you must post before you can see other students contributions, that is because we want you to think about the prompt and come up with your own individualized response. Submitting a blank (or nonsense) response with the plan to edit it after you have seen the other contributions is academic misconduct. Fortunately, we turned off the edit option, so we now have a record of both your first submission and the second one you crafted after seeing what other students wrote. We will grade based on that first submission. Welcome to the world of zeros.
Sincerely,
Prof I-wasn't-born-yesterday.
Wow. I'm glad my students don't seem to have thought of that trick, at least this time. Will need to incorporate countermeasures for next semester. Thanks for the heads-up.
Quote from: Larimar on November 12, 2020, 05:16:45 AM
Quote from: arcturus on November 11, 2020, 06:45:18 PM
Dear We-thought-you-wouldn't-notice students -
If we set the Discussion submission rules such that you must post before you can see other students contributions, that is because we want you to think about the prompt and come up with your own individualized response. Submitting a blank (or nonsense) response with the plan to edit it after you have seen the other contributions is academic misconduct. Fortunately, we turned off the edit option, so we now have a record of both your first submission and the second one you crafted after seeing what other students wrote. We will grade based on that first submission. Welcome to the world of zeros.
Sincerely,
Prof I-wasn't-born-yesterday.
Wow. I'm glad my students don't seem to have thought of that trick, at least this time. Will need to incorporate countermeasures for next semester. Thanks for the heads-up.
I called out one of my students on that earlier this semester; she never did it again.
In a similar vein to arcturus' little sneaks, I think I posted here last spring? last fall? about one of mine who tried to meet a minimum word count creatively: he submitted a paper that was about 3/4 of a page, but the word count showed it was something like 2300 words. I kept highlighting the brief text and getting that same count. Finally I did "page down" and ended up at the end of page 5. Turns out the guy had copied and pasted gibberish, selected it, and changed the font to white.
If they'd put that much effort into actually doing the work. . . . (and yes, that was an interesting conversation when I asked him about it).
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 12, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
In a similar vein to arcturus' little sneaks, I think I posted here last spring? last fall? about one of mine who tried to meet a minimum word count creatively: he submitted a paper that was about 3/4 of a page, but the word count showed it was something like 2300 words. I kept highlighting the brief text and getting that same count. Finally I did "page down" and ended up at the end of page 5. Turns out the guy had copied and pasted gibberish, selected it, and changed the font to white.
If they'd put that much effort into actually doing the work. . . . (and yes, that was an interesting conversation when I asked him about it).
Yes, that has been a common tactic among freshpeeps my my school -- they must hear it from someone, and they always seem baffled when I catch them. For what its worth, they've added "flags" to Turnitin, and white text is one of the things it is supposed to catch. (Aside: I think that's useless, since it generally highlights white text as matching anyway).
Other such shenanigans include using white quotation marks around everything. It's supposed to fool TII if the instructor has "ignore quotes" turned on. Also students have been using 0ther charac+er$ instead of letters. Some fonts make it a little more subtle than others.
When I send you the link to sign up for registration and, for whatever reason on YOUR system, it isn't a hyperlink, you can STILL copy the address and paste it in your browser.
'Digital natives' my ass.
QuoteYes, that has been a common tactic among freshpeeps my my school -- they must hear it from someone, and they always seem baffled when I catch them. For what its worth, they've added "flags" to Turnitin, and white text is one of the things it is supposed to catch. (Aside: I think that's useless, since it generally highlights white text as matching anyway).
Other such shenanigans include using white quotation marks around everything. It's supposed to fool TII if the instructor has "ignore quotes" turned on. Also students have been using 0ther charac+er$ instead of letters. Some fonts make it a little more subtle than others.
After making all the white text visible for a recent (male) student essay, I had the pleasure of reading sentences that all revolved around the word "penis." Think "I love my penis," or just "penis penis penis."
Was this choice of gibberish meant as some kind of subliminal influence? Bodily self-affirmation? A glimpse into the interior monologue of young men today?
To cap this off, much of the black text was plagiarized.
Quote from: lilyb on November 13, 2020, 09:15:46 AM
QuoteYes, that has been a common tactic among freshpeeps my my school -- they must hear it from someone, and they always seem baffled when I catch them. For what its worth, they've added "flags" to Turnitin, and white text is one of the things it is supposed to catch. (Aside: I think that's useless, since it generally highlights white text as matching anyway).
Other such shenanigans include using white quotation marks around everything. It's supposed to fool TII if the instructor has "ignore quotes" turned on. Also students have been using 0ther charac+er$ instead of letters. Some fonts make it a little more subtle than others.
After making all the white text visible for a recent (male) student essay, I had the pleasure of reading sentences that all revolved around the word "penis." Think "I love my penis," or just "penis penis penis."
Was this choice of gibberish meant as some kind of subliminal influence? Bodily self-affirmation? A glimpse into the interior monologue of young men today?
To cap this off, much of the black text was plagiarized.
Maybe he's studying Jeanne de Montbaston?
https://readingmedievalbooks.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/jeanne-de-montbaston-penis-trees-against-the-misogynists/
;--}
M.
Quote from: lilyb on November 13, 2020, 09:15:46 AM
QuoteYes, that has been a common tactic among freshpeeps my my school -- they must hear it from someone, and they always seem baffled when I catch them. For what its worth, they've added "flags" to Turnitin, and white text is one of the things it is supposed to catch. (Aside: I think that's useless, since it generally highlights white text as matching anyway).
Other such shenanigans include using white quotation marks around everything. It's supposed to fool TII if the instructor has "ignore quotes" turned on. Also students have been using 0ther charac+er$ instead of letters. Some fonts make it a little more subtle than others.
After making all the white text visible for a recent (male) student essay, I had the pleasure of reading sentences that all revolved around the word "penis." Think "I love my penis," or just "penis penis penis."
Was this choice of gibberish meant as some kind of subliminal influence? Bodily self-affirmation? A glimpse into the interior monologue of young men today?
To cap this off, much of the black text was plagiarized.
Okay, so you MUST tell us how the conversation went!
Student turns in a 30+ page lab report with over 20 screenshots (only needed 5). Stu also measured things that weren't required to be measured.
This is painful.
God, I hate the grade complainers who are convinced I'm unjustly depriving them of the grade they deserve. I get like one of these students every 4 semesters or so and they take up an inordinate amount of my time and energy. It always starts with complaints on the first exam, and then escalates to more complaints about every subsequent exam. I sense this student is going to eventually be sending emails to my chair.
Yes, you seem to suck at this. Get better at it. Or don't and get a C. I don't care, but stop bothering me.
I once had a student complain about the grading policy in the syllabus. Stu, grading policies are not decided by consensus during the third week of class.
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 15, 2020, 07:30:04 AM
I once had a student complain about the grading policy in the syllabus. Stu, grading policies are not decided by consensus during the third week of class.
Actually, I
have heard people advocating that sort of crowd-sourced grading during the first class; typically in the kind of course where they are "creating knowledge together".
I used to get the wish for a 90-80-70 scale as "more fair."
When I explained that the curved scale worked in their favor, they'd still complain, because, like, they had to do the MATH to figure out how to improve their grade..
I'd say, "No, you just have to do the WORK...." but they didn't seem to get it.
M.
Quote from: ciao_yall on November 13, 2020, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: lilyb on November 13, 2020, 09:15:46 AM
QuoteYes, that has been a common tactic among freshpeeps my my school -- they must hear it from someone, and they always seem baffled when I catch them. For what its worth, they've added "flags" to Turnitin, and white text is one of the things it is supposed to catch. (Aside: I think that's useless, since it generally highlights white text as matching anyway).
Other such shenanigans include using white quotation marks around everything. It's supposed to fool TII if the instructor has "ignore quotes" turned on. Also students have been using 0ther charac+er$ instead of letters. Some fonts make it a little more subtle than others.
After making all the white text visible for a recent (male) student essay, I had the pleasure of reading sentences that all revolved around the word "penis." Think "I love my penis," or just "penis penis penis."
Was this choice of gibberish meant as some kind of subliminal influence? Bodily self-affirmation? A glimpse into the interior monologue of young men today?
To cap this off, much of the black text was plagiarized.
Okay, so you MUST tell us how the conversation went!
I just flatly asked,"why, when I make this text visible, do we have all this talk of penises?" He was embarrassed and couldn't really answer.
The plagiarism issue was much more serious.
His last essay certainly appears to be his own work. He has been much more engaged since that talk and has a chance now of passing the class.
Actually, I am really rooting for him to make it--not just my class, but college in general.
I'm in a pit of grading mediocre essays that miss the main point and the evidence included is summarized based on the article abstract. Why am I wasting my life on this? ok I know why, because I assigned the work, and designed the learning objectives it connects to, but still...
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 15, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
I'm in a pit of grading mediocre essays that miss the main point and the evidence included is summarized based on the article abstract. Why am I wasting my life on this? ok I know why, because I assigned the work, and designed the learning objectives it connects to, but still...
I'm heading down into that pit myself this week. It's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck...
Quote from: histchick on November 16, 2020, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 15, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
I'm in a pit of grading mediocre essays that miss the main point and the evidence included is summarized based on the article abstract. Why am I wasting my life on this? ok I know why, because I assigned the work, and designed the learning objectives it connects to, but still...
I'm heading down into that pit myself this week. It's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck...
The other day, colleague and I were having a virtual sanity-check meeting, and colleague said "guess that's why they pay us the big bucks." [where is that sarcasm font?] So far, we've survived two rounds of retrenchment, so I guess that's something.
Quote from: histchick on November 16, 2020, 07:40:04 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 15, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
I'm in a pit of grading mediocre essays that miss the main point and the evidence included is summarized based on the article abstract. Why am I wasting my life on this? ok I know why, because I assigned the work, and designed the learning objectives it connects to, but still...
I'm heading down into that pit myself this week. It's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck, it's for the paycheck...
My mantra has long been, "I go to work to earn the money to buy the dog food to feed the dog. I go to work to earn the money to buy the dog food to feed the dog." I just keep saying it over and over until the urge to start crying passes.
"This job keeps me in the top 10% worldwide. There are people who work much, much harder than I do for a lot less money. And I have the calendar schedule of a schoolchild. Git 'er done."
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 15, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
I'm in a pit of grading mediocre essays that miss the main point and the evidence included is summarized based on the article abstract. Why am I wasting my life on this? ok I know why, because I assigned the work, and designed the learning objectives it connects to, but still...
I try to reframe this sort of abysmal failure as an "opportunity for learning", but it can be really hard to convince myself sometimes.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 16, 2020, 08:54:09 AM
"This job keeps me in the top 10% worldwide. There are people who work much, much harder than I do for a lot less money. And I have the calendar schedule of a schoolchild. Git 'er done."
While I don't have the schedule of a schoolchild, the rest of this is very much true.
The learning opportunity aspect only works if you think they will look at your feedback. One the last assignment of the semester, that all goes out the window.
I had a long email tale of woe today from a student who is "having difficulty with the deadlines" in my class. This for a class where all material, assignments, deadlines etc was laid out on the first day. If you wanted, you could get way far ahead.
I need a giant blinking billboard that says "YES! you can complete assignments BEFORE the deadline!"
Quote from: mythbuster on November 16, 2020, 09:52:57 AM
The learning opportunity aspect only works if you think they will look at your feedback. One the last assignment of the semester, that all goes out the window.
I had a long email tale of woe today from a student who is "having difficulty with the deadlines" in my class. This for a class where all material, assignments, deadlines etc was laid out on the first day. If you wanted, you could get way far ahead.
I need a giant blinking billboard that says "YES! you can complete assignments BEFORE the deadline!"
So true! And sadly this is why online learning is hard for many students. They have to be so much more organized and self-reliant.
Quote from: mythbuster on November 16, 2020, 09:52:57 AM
The learning opportunity aspect only works if you think they will look at your feedback. One the last assignment of the semester, that all goes out the window.
I had a long email tale of woe today from a student who is "having difficulty with the deadlines" in my class. This for a class where all material, assignments, deadlines etc was laid out on the first day. If you wanted, you could get way far ahead.
I need a giant blinking billboard that says "YES! you can complete assignments BEFORE the deadline!"
In one of my classes, I write on the board DUE date does not equal DO date. Probably doesn't reach the one who need to hear it most, but at least I've made a public service announcement.
Quote from: mythbuster on November 16, 2020, 09:52:57 AM
I need a giant blinking billboard that says "YES! you can complete assignments BEFORE the deadline!"
I've been grading so much, I read this as "a giant bikini billboard."
Hmmmmm . . . which might actually work. Nothing like a 55-year-old pudgy dude in a bikini up on a billboard to drive home a point to students.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 16, 2020, 10:43:33 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on November 16, 2020, 09:52:57 AM
I need a giant blinking billboard that says "YES! you can complete assignments BEFORE the deadline!"
I've been grading so much, I read this as "a giant bikini billboard."
Not exactly the same thing, but some years ago the news in our state capital reported on a local billboard (Advertising a radio station, IIRC) that caused controversy with a likeness of a woman in a very low-cut outfit. She ended up getting a change of wardrobe.
A student who has missed the last month of labs emailed to say that they need "just until tomorrow" to turn in all of their missed assignments.
They also failed the 1st midterm and the second one is tomorrow.
But they do not want to drop the class.
And another student who I've been playing email tag with to let them know that they STILL need to register has now declared that they don't want to register if they can't be excused from ALL of their missing assignments because it would "hurt their GPA".
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2020, 09:29:37 AM
A student who has missed the last month of labs emailed to say that they need "just until tomorrow" to turn in all of their missed assignments.
They also failed the 1st midterm and the second one is tomorrow.
But they do not want to drop the class.
I am also getting these extremely impractical catch-up schedules.
Like, if you are 6 weeks behind, no, you cannot catch up by the end of the week. It's not because I won't let you. It's because there is no possible way to complete the work that fast unless you already know it, which both of us know by now that you do not.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2020, 09:29:37 AM
A student who has missed the last month of labs emailed to say that they need "just until tomorrow" to turn in all of their missed assignments.
They also failed the 1st midterm and the second one is tomorrow.
But they do not want to drop the class.
And another student who I've been playing email tag with to let them know that they STILL need to register has now declared that they don't want to register if they can't be excused from ALL of their missing assignments because it would "hurt their GPA".
Sounds like you are falling into the "no good deed goes unpunished" section of hell.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 17, 2020, 10:15:01 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2020, 09:29:37 AM
A student who has missed the last month of labs emailed to say that they need "just until tomorrow" to turn in all of their missed assignments.
They also failed the 1st midterm and the second one is tomorrow.
But they do not want to drop the class.
And another student who I've been playing email tag with to let them know that they STILL need to register has now declared that they don't want to register if they can't be excused from ALL of their missing assignments because it would "hurt their GPA".
Sounds like you are falling into the "no good deed goes unpunished" section of hell.
Very, very much so. This student has ignored all emails saying that they need to register and are instead throwing a fit that they now have to fill out a special form to register.
Quote from: kiana on November 17, 2020, 10:08:24 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2020, 09:29:37 AM
A student who has missed the last month of labs emailed to say that they need "just until tomorrow" to turn in all of their missed assignments.
They also failed the 1st midterm and the second one is tomorrow.
But they do not want to drop the class.
I am also getting these extremely impractical catch-up schedules.
Like, if you are 6 weeks behind, no, you cannot catch up by the end of the week. It's not because I won't let you. It's because there is no possible way to complete the work that fast unless you already know it, which both of us know by now that you do not.
Sounds like a lot of magical thinking--like the students imagine that if only they can shovel out
something for each of the assignments, it will equal completing the course requirements and passing.
It reminds me of the guys I saw broken down on the side of the road that day who had two and a half tons of bricks loaded in a little single-axle trailer. If you could fit it all inside the available volume, then surely it would work, right?
I have a student who copied and pasted answers to questions on TWO of their last assignments. Blatant, super obvious copies (different font, way too well-written, didn't really answer the question, etc).
Did their TA catch it? No.
How did I catch it? Looking at a bunch of student answers to decide how to update the grading guide.
I don't know who's head I want to bang harder, the undergraduate student's or the TA's.
Maybe bang them together?
In the way the old Chip 'n' Dale characters used to bump heads when they'd both try to go into a hole at the same time?
In other news: who knew office equipment could be so much fun?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPEvVEhVIMA
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 18, 2020, 03:46:15 PM
I have a student who copied and pasted answers to questions on TWO of their last assignments. Blatant, super obvious copies (different font, way too well-written, didn't really answer the question, etc).
Did their TA catch it? No.
How did I catch it? Looking at a bunch of student answers to decide how to update the grading guide.
I don't know who's head I want to bang harder, the undergraduate student's or the TA's.
What would be worse: TA didn't catch it because they didn't read it? or TA didn't catch it because when they did read it they didn't see anything wrong?
Student just emailed me (for the 1st time) about a lab due in less than 3 hours. Apparently student thinks that stu has the wrong link to the simulation. Stu emailed me the link. Link works. Stu just didn't click on the right thing.
No, stu. You just didn't follow the directions.
Ugh.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on November 18, 2020, 05:29:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 18, 2020, 03:46:15 PM
I have a student who copied and pasted answers to questions on TWO of their last assignments. Blatant, super obvious copies (different font, way too well-written, didn't really answer the question, etc).
Did their TA catch it? No.
How did I catch it? Looking at a bunch of student answers to decide how to update the grading guide.
I don't know who's head I want to bang harder, the undergraduate student's or the TA's.
What would be worse: TA didn't catch it because they didn't read it? or TA didn't catch it because when they did read it they didn't see anything wrong?
Reading it and seeing nothing wrong is worse. Not reading it is lazy, seeing no issue with blatant plagiarism is unethical.
From what I know about the TA, I'm assuming it's because they are new to teaching and probably thought the student just had a really good answer. I really, really hope that it's not that they think this sort of cheating is OK. We are meeting to have a chat later.
Mine is an accelerated Comp 1 course, 8 weeks long & synchronous online meeting (counted as extra credit) each week. Important to note that we are in Week 6, with Week 8 being truncated for finals (& Week 7 for Turkey Day). There is very little time left in the course.
Student has not attended since week 1 and has submitted nothing. (Literally
nothing.) I send out an "alert" email to remind failing students of the upcoming last drop date. Student emails back & says she has tried to drop the course but "that's not working." So, helpfully, I loop Student's assigned advisor in to assist. Next morning, advisor emails to say "class dropped, all good" -- and
nearly simultaneously, Student emails with the following (some items altered for privacy):
QuoteClearly at this point I'm very far behind. Is there a way I would be able to catch up? Or an assignment that I could do to at least get me to a C? Maybe a paper or a few different ones? If I drop the class then I take the chance of losing [scholarship]. Anything would help at this point.
So not only is she already actually no longer enrolled in the course, but... "
an assignment I could do"? I'm going to create a magical assignment worth 700 points for you alone? Yeah, no. That's not a thing. "Maybe a paper or a few different ones?" Oh, I don't know, how about a few of the ALREADY ASSIGNED AND UNSUBMITTED PAPERS.
Often at this point my response (if they're still in the class) is "go ahead and submit whatever you finish." Then they fail anyway, but I'm the nice guy. I rarely tell students "No, seriously, it's time to throw in the towel." But that's exactly what I did this time. Sorry, Student. The actually better outcome for you in several ways is to have dropped this course now. (A withdrawal before drop date won't hit their GPA. I suspect Student is saying they will lose their scholarship without this course because they are also failing others.)
Phew - a request for a single extra credit assignment that will turn your 0% into a 70% That's a bold ask.
Quote from: rhetoricae on November 20, 2020, 11:35:55 AM
Phew - a request for a single extra credit assignment that will turn your 0% into a 70% That's a bold ask.
Perhaps something like this (https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/final_exam.png)
It's so sad to hear about students on scholarship just blowing off classes like that. They're throwing away a chance they won't get again.
Quote from: apl68 on November 20, 2020, 12:50:13 PM
It's so sad to hear about students on scholarship just blowing off classes like that. They're throwing away a chance they won't get again.
And a chance/scholarship that someone else (who really cared and wanted to succeed) could have used.
Students, this is the third major paper out of four for the semester. Documentation of sources has always been required. The assignment sheet says that if you are reviewing a movie, video game, or whatever for this paper, that thing you are reviewing is a source and therefore must be documented. Why aren't you listening?????
An essay question was taken directly from the study guide on an open book exam and yet nearly half of the answers demonstrated little or no familiarity with the assigned readings (that were also covered in the lectures).
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
Quote from: RatGuy on November 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
Fantasy answer to this: "That is something I can't do anything about. The exam will still occur as scheduled."
Quote from: Larimar on December 01, 2020, 05:23:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on November 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
Fantasy answer to this: "That is something I can't do anything about. The exam will still occur as scheduled."
Why is that a fantasy?
Quote from: RatGuy on November 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
"I would suggest you ask your parents to Fed Ex them overnight to you."
Persistent complainer submitted an assignment with an extra page, acknowledging that this was not part of the requirement, but asking for feedback on the same.
Stu, you know from experience that assignments that do not conform to the written requirements will lose points. I am not giving you feedback on a page that was not required.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 01, 2020, 05:39:35 AM
Quote from: Larimar on December 01, 2020, 05:23:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on November 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
Fantasy answer to this: "That is something I can't do anything about. The exam will still occur as scheduled."
Why is that a fantasy?
Because I am an adjunct, and being that blunt, "unhelpful", "mean", and "inflexible" in how I phrase things would not be politic, especially "during these difficult times".
I allow students to earn a "second chance card" to take a new version of one of the first two exams during finals by watching my nifty study strategies video and meeting with me to discuss how they will study differently this time. This is not itself what my head banging is about-- I like doing this both because I truly believe in second chances, and because it solves so many headaches for me (whatever their sad story is, there is a one-size, pre-made solution and I don't have to listen to special pleading).
The head banging is this-- I've had to talk three students who have an A- and one with a B+ in the course so far out of doing this to themselves rather than just focusing on the third exam and final assignment (and all their other classes, and you know, sleep and life). I have a whole song and dance about perfectionism I can do in my sleep now, but I wish I didn't have to do it so often.
Meanwhile, I have students with Ds who have not responded to repeated entreaties to meet with me before the end of the week to earn said second chance card, when the really, really need that second chance.
Same thing happens if I offer extra credit-- students with As do it, students who really need it do not. It's perverse, if predictable.
Quote from: Puget on December 01, 2020, 07:24:25 PM
Meanwhile, I have students with Ds who have not responded to repeated entreaties to meet with me before the end of the week to earn said second chance card, when the really, really need that second chance.
Same thing happens if I offer extra credit-- students with As do it, students who really need it do not. It's perverse, if predictable.
Decades ago, when my mom was an elementary school teacher, her lament about parents' night was that the parents of kids who were doing well always showed up, whereas the parents she really wanted to see, (i.e. those of kids who were struggling), never did.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 01, 2020, 05:39:35 AM
Quote from: Larimar on December 01, 2020, 05:23:35 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on November 30, 2020, 02:21:17 PM
A dishearteningly number of students are telling me "I know you said that the final would be open book and comprehensive, but I left my textbooks when I came home for Thanksgiving."
Fantasy answer to this: "That is something I can't do anything about. The exam will still occur as scheduled."
Why is that a fantasy?
Indeed. If that answer is too cruel to be delivered, we really are lost. I've heard worse from kindergarten teachers.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 02, 2020, 05:06:45 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 01, 2020, 07:24:25 PM
Meanwhile, I have students with Ds who have not responded to repeated entreaties to meet with me before the end of the week to earn said second chance card, when the really, really need that second chance.
Same thing happens if I offer extra credit-- students with As do it, students who really need it do not. It's perverse, if predictable.
Decades ago, when my mom was an elementary school teacher, her lament about parents' night was that the parents of kids who were doing well always showed up, whereas the parents she really wanted to see, (i.e. those of kids who were struggling), never did.
Which, of course, suggests something about why the struggling students were struggling.
That said, we do hear stories on this thread now and then about "helicopter" parents who are, if anything, TOO involved in their students' work.
Next week (Dec 7-11) is finals week here. I have individual virtual meetings with students in one of my classes during finals week. I sent an email to a student asking them to sent their availability during finals week. Students sends back their availability for the week of December 14th. I know I've seriously hit a wall, but how can you not know that next week is finals week? I hope this student will sit for their finals. I did clarify which week was finals week for the student in hopes that that information will help them.
I just got a notice of accommodation for a student who hasn't handed a single thing in all semester. I just figured she'd dropped.
I suppose an email to the student is in order. Ugh. (It's no big deal or anything, I just hate doing this sort of thing.)
At both current school and most recent past school, accommodations letters say and have said very clearly that they do not work retroactively. Hope yours works that way as well.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on December 02, 2020, 05:17:10 PM
At both current school and most recent past school, accommodations letters say and have said very clearly that they do not work retroactively. Hope yours works that way as well.
AR.
I wouldn't really mind that--most of the stuff would be auto-graded anyway. It's just a weird time to get the letter, and I don't relish the prospect of checking in with the student and then having more emails to deal with. (But I'm being a baby. It's fine! Just tired today...)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 02, 2020, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on December 02, 2020, 05:17:10 PM
At both current school and most recent past school, accommodations letters say and have said very clearly that they do not work retroactively. Hope yours works that way as well.
AR.
I wouldn't really mind that--most of the stuff would be auto-graded anyway. It's just a weird time to get the letter, and I don't relish the prospect of checking in with the student and then having more emails to deal with. (But I'm being a baby. It's fine! Just tired today...)
Maybe the student is hoping for a last minute "If I do AMAZINGLY well on the final exam, I'll pass the class" sort of miracle.
Is it even mathematically possible for them to pass after missing that much of the class?
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 03, 2020, 08:36:00 AM
Maybe the student is hoping for a last minute "If I do AMAZINGLY well on the final exam, I'll pass the class" sort of miracle.
Is it even mathematically possible for them to pass after missing that much of the class?
Haha, no, it's too many zeroes. The best they could hope for at this point is 35%. And I think that would be obvious to anyone looking, including the student. I would have thought it was an automatic notification and that the student wasn't involved at all, except that it's weird for an automatic notification like that to happen in the last two weeks of the semester, as opposed to the first two.
Gah! I have no idea what these students are trying to say in these research papers. It should be that hard to tell me what is know about your topic, what the gap in the literature is, and how your study is going to address that. I know I'm grading while sick, but it should not take me this long to try to figure out what you are talking about. I would bang my head, but I already have a massive headache, so I don't think that would help.
Students, I know you are stressed, but THREE of you have now asked me for an extension I already gave everyone in a course announcement email last week. You know, the email with the subject head starting "PLEASE READ CAREFULLY"?
A student turned in a file with the name: "PLEASE HELP!" No email, just a long statement about how stu doesn't understand the lab that stu just turned in and could I 'please teach it?'
Not sure how to respond to this one.
Part of my students' final project is to specify materials to be used in their design of a [nerdy engineering thing]. I keep getting questions via email and on Zoom during remote lab that are basically "Hey, Dr. Mode, what materials are we supposed to use for the [part]?"
I keep telling them that that's part of the assignment, they're supposed to choose the materials themselves based on what we've learned all semester and the parameters of the project. They've had to choose materials before. It's on the assignment itself on the list of requirements, to choose appropriate materials. There are points on the rubric for material choice. Aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhh!!!!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 03, 2020, 09:40:37 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 03, 2020, 08:36:00 AM
Maybe the student is hoping for a last minute "If I do AMAZINGLY well on the final exam, I'll pass the class" sort of miracle.
Is it even mathematically possible for them to pass after missing that much of the class?
Haha, no, it's too many zeroes. The best they could hope for at this point is 35%. And I think that would be obvious to anyone looking, including the student. I would have thought it was an automatic notification and that the student wasn't involved at all, except that it's weird for an automatic notification like that to happen in the last two weeks of the semester, as opposed to the first two.
I have a student in a similar situation—a string of zeroes. Right before the withdrawal period, I wrote to him (copied to his adviser) urging him to withdraw, as his chances of passing were virtually zero. (I'll add that I had been in touch with him periodically since the second week of the semester, and had sent his adviser an Early Alert—so his dire situation could not have been news to him.).
Rather than withdraw, he changed his grade option to S/U. His current average is 46%. Even a 100% on the final will not save him, but I'm betting that he thinks it will.
I have a fun students tussle in progress. Steps involved.
1) Student took capstone seminar with me 2 years ago (only class with me). Student was meh.
2) Student contacted me for Letter of Rcommendation (LOR) in subfield as far from mine as possible (Think, Department of Containers - LOR for Fine China and Glassware, Me - Precast Septic tanks.)
3) I tell student he should find another recommended who knows him better and is familiar with his work in chosen subarea.
4) Students insists, and says I need 3, you'll be fine. I reluctantly agree and send my instructions on what I need from him.
5) Student submits application and gets LOR requests sent to me with < 1week to do.
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
7) I write a meh letter, but when I go to submit, student has not waived right to see letter (my instructions say no waiver, no letter).
8) I contact student and inform him he needs to change the waiver.
9) Student argues.
10) I don't reply.
11) Deadline passes.
12) Student argues again. I resend letter at #8.
13) Student finally changes forms today.
14) Now has emailed me 3x since 6am b/c my letters are "late".
15) Submit letters.
16) bang head*
*Optional at every step of process
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
I have a fun students tussle in progress. Steps involved.
1) Student took capstone seminar with me 2 years ago (only class with me). Student was meh.
2) Student contacted me for Letter of Rcommendation (LOR) in subfield as far from mine as possible (Think, Department of Containers - LOR for Fine China and Glassware, Me - Precast Septic tanks.)
3) I tell student he should find another recommended who knows him better and is familiar with his work in chosen subarea.
4) Students insists, and says I need 3, you'll be fine. I reluctantly agree and send my instructions on what I need from him.
5) Student submits application and gets LOR requests sent to me with < 1week to do.
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
7) I write a meh letter, but when I go to submit, student has not waived right to see letter (my instructions say no waiver, no letter).
8) I contact student and inform him he needs to change the waiver.
9) Student argues.
10) I don't reply.
11) Deadline passes.
12) Student argues again. I resend letter at #8.
13) Student finally changes forms today.
14) Now has emailed me 3x since 6am b/c my letters are "late".
15) Submit letters.
16) bang head*
*Optional at every step of process
So, Step 14a was to revise letter to say that there is no way they should admit this student, right?
You are much more patient than I, FishProf. I would have stopped at Step 3.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 03, 2020, 07:03:19 PM
A student turned in a file with the name: "PLEASE HELP!" No email, just a long statement about how stu doesn't understand the lab that stu just turned in and could I 'please teach it?'
Not sure how to respond to this one.
Did Stu go to lab? Come to your office hours? Email to ask questions before the due date?
If yes to any of those, I'd be more inclined to offer to meet and chat ('cause I'm kind of a softie for offering one-on-one help).
Do you have a late work policy? Maybe tell them to read/watch/etc the prep materials & come to you with specific questions?
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 04, 2020, 08:52:36 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 03, 2020, 07:03:19 PM
A student turned in a file with the name: "PLEASE HELP!" No email, just a long statement about how stu doesn't understand the lab that stu just turned in and could I 'please teach it?'
Not sure how to respond to this one.
Did Stu go to lab? Come to your office hours? Email to ask questions before the due date?
If yes to any of those, I'd be more inclined to offer to meet and chat ('cause I'm kind of a softie for offering one-on-one help).
Do you have a late work policy? Maybe tell them to read/watch/etc the prep materials & come to you with specific questions?
Nope, nope and nope.
I do have a late work policy, but I gave stu a 50% and moved on.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 04, 2020, 07:54:10 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
I have a fun students tussle in progress. Steps involved.
1) Student took capstone seminar with me 2 years ago (only class with me). Student was meh.
2) Student contacted me for Letter of Rcommendation (LOR) in subfield as far from mine as possible (Think, Department of Containers - LOR for Fine China and Glassware, Me - Precast Septic tanks.)
3) I tell student he should find another recommended who knows him better and is familiar with his work in chosen subarea.
4) Students insists, and says I need 3, you'll be fine. I reluctantly agree and send my instructions on what I need from him.
5) Student submits application and gets LOR requests sent to me with < 1week to do.
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
7) I write a meh letter, but when I go to submit, student has not waived right to see letter (my instructions say no waiver, no letter).
8) I contact student and inform him he needs to change the waiver.
9) Student argues.
10) I don't reply.
11) Deadline passes.
12) Student argues again. I resend letter at #8.
13) Student finally changes forms today.
14) Now has emailed me 3x since 6am b/c my letters are "late".
15) Submit letters.
16) bang head*
*Optional at every step of process
So, Step 14a was to revise letter to say that there is no way they should admit this student, right?
You are much more patient than I, FishProf. I would have stopped at Step 3.
Think of all the time and effort saved by not accepting the student's original request in the first place.
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
Busy weekend.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 04, 2020, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
Busy weekend.
I am so glad I am not the only one who thought this. :D
Quote from: reverist on December 04, 2020, 10:35:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 04, 2020, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
Busy weekend.
I am so glad I am not the only one who thought this. :D
Is it the pandemic? I haven't laughed so much in months. I think it was the explaining to the student part that did me in.
Quote from: Cheerful on December 04, 2020, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: reverist on December 04, 2020, 10:35:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 04, 2020, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
Busy weekend.
I am so glad I am not the only one who thought this. :D
Is it the pandemic? I haven't laughed so much in months. I think it was the explaining to the student part that did me in.
I would hope, under the circumstances, that the explanation to the student would clarify the importance of wearing masks. Safety first.
Quote from: cathwen on December 04, 2020, 07:15:08 AM
I have a student in a similar situation—a string of zeroes. Right before the withdrawal period, I wrote to him (copied to his adviser) urging him to withdraw, as his chances of passing were virtually zero. (I'll add that I had been in touch with him periodically since the second week of the semester, and had sent his adviser an Early Alert—so his dire situation could not have been news to him.).
Rather than withdraw, he changed his grade option to S/U. His current average is 46%. Even a 100% on the final will not save him, but I'm betting that he thinks it will.
0_o
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 03, 2020, 03:39:54 PM
Gah! I have no idea what these students are trying to say in these research papers. It should be that hard to tell me what is know about your topic, what the gap in the literature is, and how your study is going to address that. I know I'm grading while sick, but it should not take me this long to try to figure out what you are talking about. I would bang my head, but I already have a massive headache, so I don't think that would help.
I keep telling my students that their papers are not research papers, that they can only discuss material that's on the syllabus (i.e. that we've gone over together). I tell them over and over. In bold. In caps. In emails. In class. I attached a 10% penalty for not following the instructions and going to outside sources.
I'd say about 95% of them still end up trying to write a research paper. I really don't get it, because what I'm asking them to do is a lot
easier...
Quote from: Puget on December 03, 2020, 04:27:44 PM
Students, I know you are stressed, but THREE of you have now asked me for an extension I already gave everyone in a course announcement email last week. You know, the email with the subject head starting "PLEASE READ CAREFULLY"?
I have this image in my head of students reading the subject line as
Please read: "Carefully," then saying the word "Care-ful-ly" very slowly, and then not reading the actual email at all.
It's been a long semester.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 04, 2020, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2020, 07:35:31 AM
6) Student emails me EVERY DAY leading up to deadline (I explain that I am doing hos and several others over the weekend and they will be done on time.
Busy weekend.
Too busy for proofreading, to be sure.
I really don't want to be a total tool, but Damn! I suppose my patience has run out, since I've been in limbo with this damn health issue and well, the rest of what's been going on in the world doesn't help.
Stu emails me a lab report and I don't accept them through email because if I did, then I'd be getting over 100 emails a week with files. This is the 2nd time I have had stu do this and I know I'm just extra aggravated.
But, I was nice in my response. Only a week to go. I can do this.
Quote from: fishbrains on December 04, 2020, 12:53:40 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 03, 2020, 04:27:44 PM
Students, I know you are stressed, but THREE of you have now asked me for an extension I already gave everyone in a course announcement email last week. You know, the email with the subject head starting "PLEASE READ CAREFULLY"?
I have this image in my head of students reading the subject line as Please read: "Carefully," then saying the word "Care-ful-ly" very slowly, and then not reading the actual email at all.
It's been a long semester.
Haha-- like "speak friend and enter". More plausibly, they simply do not read their emails at all, though you would think at the point that they open their email to email me begging for an extension, they might take a moment to scan all those unread emails to see if they are missing important information?
It will surprise no one here that I have since fielded multiple emails from students saying they know I already gave everyone an extension but they really need an additional extension because [reasons]. In a few cases [reason] seems legitimate and serious and I've granted it, but in most cases [reason] is basically that they are trying to do it last minute after I've been been telling them since Nov. 1st that they need to be making steady progress, and explicitly told them this would not end well for them if they put it off till the last week. They may not like me, but they can't say I didn't tell them the truth.
Last month, multiple students in one class emailed to tell me that they were stressed about a Friday deadline (say the 13th, though it wasn't). We had had a lot of weather at the time, and some didn't have internet, so I said okay, and gave them a Monday extension. Emailed out a big announcement.
I went to enter the extension into the CMS, and the activity was due a week later (e.g. Friday the 20th). Then I had to send a new email.
All that to say: can you give your last-minute students who didn't read the email an extension that ends before the class-wide extension?
AR.
I just had a student email me and tell me that I needed to document exactly where I think she plagiarized an entire paragraph in her essay. She says Turnitin just states, "Submitted to PodunkUniversity," and that means nothing.
I replied that if I had to go so far as to document where the paragraph came from when I'm trying to help her, I might as well just fill out the Student Misconduct paperwork for her at the same time. Silence so far.
And I'm 93.4% sure the plagiarized passage came from a fairly famous essay written about the work, but I doubt she has read that essay.
Weird. [sigh]
I know that I'm frustrated and I didn't get much sleep last night, but damn, Stu! Read the syllabus! Student emails me to ask if the final exam was the last test they just took. Noooooooo. I've only been emailing you, posting announcements (and it's in the syllabus) and screaming from the tops of the rafters that the final exam starts on Tuesday!
Dear student, I have no clue what to offer you as feedback on that question that is both personal and beyond my professional specialization. I recognize that you are reaching out to someone you trust, but that's too much. Thanks for the practice in maintaining my boundaries?
Quote from: teach_write_research on December 07, 2020, 12:27:18 PM
Dear student, I have no clue what to offer you as feedback on that question that is both personal and beyond my professional specialization. I recognize that you are reaching out to someone you trust, but that's too much. Thanks for the practice in maintaining my boundaries?
Time for an email like:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. It sounds like you are having a hard time due to [health issues; family issues; etc.]. If you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you to please contact your [academic advisor; counselor; etc.] as they can discuss options for how to complete your coursework. Also, the [student counseling center; ombudsperson; student health center; national crisis line] is free and offers help for students in your situation [link to website].
Best,
Dr. t_w_r
+1
Keep it about them, not you.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 07, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on December 07, 2020, 12:27:18 PM
Dear student, I have no clue what to offer you as feedback on that question that is both personal and beyond my professional specialization. I recognize that you are reaching out to someone you trust, but that's too much. Thanks for the practice in maintaining my boundaries?
Time for an email like:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. It sounds like you are having a hard time due to [health issues; family issues; etc.]. If you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you to please contact your [academic advisor; counselor; etc.] as they can discuss options for how to complete your coursework. Also, the [student counseling center; ombudsperson; student health center; national crisis line] is free and offers help for students in your situation [link to website].
Best,
Dr. t_w_r
This, but also if you have a way of alerting these people yourself (we have a form we can fill out to mobilize a care team), it is good to offer to do so for them-- if a student really is in crisis, they are often too overwhelmed to do the reaching out themselves. I've done one care team form and one informal referral email to a colleague I know in the counseling center (with student cc'ed) so far this week, and in both cases the student was relieved and thankful for the offer to help connect them with resources.
Quote from: Puget on December 07, 2020, 03:23:58 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 07, 2020, 01:11:59 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on December 07, 2020, 12:27:18 PM
Dear student, I have no clue what to offer you as feedback on that question that is both personal and beyond my professional specialization. I recognize that you are reaching out to someone you trust, but that's too much. Thanks for the practice in maintaining my boundaries?
Time for an email like:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. It sounds like you are having a hard time due to [health issues; family issues; etc.]. If you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you to please contact your [academic advisor; counselor; etc.] as they can discuss options for how to complete your coursework. Also, the [student counseling center; ombudsperson; student health center; national crisis line] is free and offers help for students in your situation [link to website].
Best,
Dr. t_w_r
This, but also if you have a way of alerting these people yourself (we have a form we can fill out to mobilize a care team), it is good to offer to do so for them-- if a student really is in crisis, they are often too overwhelmed to do the reaching out themselves. I've done one care team form and one informal referral email to a colleague I know in the counseling center (with student cc'ed) so far this week, and in both cases the student was relieved and thankful for the offer to help connect them with resources.
I would also alert the Chair and ask for suggestions.
Some of the students live in such dysfunctional households that their professor is the only person they can talk to. Usually listening to them with compassion and referring them to the right office/resources is the best thing we can do for these students.
Quote from: Puget on December 06, 2020, 02:04:25 PM
It will surprise no one here that I have since fielded multiple emails from students saying they know I already gave everyone an extension but they really need an additional extension because [reasons]. In a few cases [reason] seems legitimate and serious and I've granted it, but in most cases [reason] is basically that they are trying to do it last minute after I've been been telling them since Nov. 1st that they need to be making steady progress, and explicitly told them this would not end well for them if they put it off till the last week. They may not like me, but they can't say I didn't tell them the truth.
Assignment was due at 5 PM today and [reasons] have escalated. I'm sure some of these are legitimate, and everyone got the benefit of the doubt with a two day extension and instructions to contact their advisor if they end up needing more than that, but but it is fascinating how hazardous an assignment deadline is for students and all their friends and relations.So far I have gotten:
1.Great-grandmother admitted to hospital and "family tradition requires we all wait outside the hospital"
2. Had "heart palpitations" and mother took to hospital (panic attack if true. . .brought on by not having finished her assignment?)
3. Friend was visiting from out of town and had a torn esophagus requiring student to wait at hospital without computer (I have thoughts about visiting friends in a pandemic, plus what hospitals currently allow non-patients inside??)
4. Long tale of family woe that is probably actually true
5. Mom has COVID and now she is feeling sick too (probably true)
6. Multiple non-specific claims of "not feeling well" or "being sick for the last few days" (I'm sure some of these are true, others not so much, but I refuse to try to determine which).
^ I usually respond with "All assignments were available at the beginning of the semester."
. . .
I am increasingly unable to determine whether students aren't reading at all or *think* they are reading but lack basic reading comprehension skills. For example, a book about basket-weaving traditions in Peru, Malaysia, and India, successive chapters of which have been assigned each week of the semester, and I'm still getting writing assignments that read like "Baskets from these countries hold things and I feel as though that makes them important" or "The people who live in the province of Peru in Malaysia are known for making baskets."
Writing class. After taking ans passing the plagiarism quiz. Student's paper is flagged by Turnitin as 60% match. Yup. Blatant plagiarism. I fill out appropriate forms, have tearful Zoom call wih said student, recommend using the writing center etc. etc. etc.
Student submission of the revised research paper. . . now a 57% match. And not just to previously submitted paper. It matches the original sources once again.
Quote from: mythbuster on December 08, 2020, 09:02:41 AM
Writing class. After taking ans passing the plagiarism quiz. Student's paper is flagged by Turnitin as 60% match. Yup. Blatant plagiarism. I fill out appropriate forms, have tearful Zoom call wih said student, recommend using the writing center etc. etc. etc.
Student submission of the revised research paper. . . now a 57% match. And not just to previously submitted paper. It matches the original sources once again.
Some possibilities: student inadvertently submitted wrong version of revised paper, student doesn't understand what constitutes plagiarism, Turnitin flagging nonproblems, student doesn't care.
Likely the last. This course is required for the major, so she will get to take it again and learn to care.
Quote from: Cheerful on December 08, 2020, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on December 08, 2020, 09:02:41 AM
Writing class. After taking ans passing the plagiarism quiz. Student's paper is flagged by Turnitin as 60% match. Yup. Blatant plagiarism. I fill out appropriate forms, have tearful Zoom call wih said student, recommend using the writing center etc. etc. etc.
Student submission of the revised research paper. . . now a 57% match. And not just to previously submitted paper. It matches the original sources once again.
Some possibilities: student inadvertently submitted wrong version of revised paper, student doesn't understand what constitutes plagiarism, Turnitin flagging nonproblems, student doesn't care.
FWIW: I found students generally refused to discard their plagiarized work and start over. They just tried to take what they had and make it less "plagiarizy." So I started requiring students to write on completely different topics with new research if they want to do a rewrite. The ones that take me up on the offer tend to do much better than they would if they tried to revise what they plagiarized.
Yeah, the revision is a major part of the assignment for everyone, as it's one of the skills we are practicing in this course. Most students think that revision = fix the typos. It does not. I have a picture of one of Obama's speech drafts that I use to illustrate what good revision REALLY looks like.
The thing that kills me about this student is that she was given the full report with all the plagiarized parts highlighted. So it's pretty easy from there to at least attempt to fix the relevant sentences. She didn't even attempt that.
Quote from: mythbuster on December 08, 2020, 12:51:13 PM
Yeah, the revision is a major part of the assignment for everyone, as it's one of the skills we are practicing in this course. Most students think that revision = fix the typos. It does not. I have a picture of one of Obama's speech drafts that I use to illustrate what good revision REALLY looks like.
The thing that kills me about this student is that she was given the full report with all the plagiarized parts highlighted. So it's pretty easy from there to at least attempt to fix the relevant sentences. She didn't even attempt that.
I see this is graduate students too. I have them write quiz questions for their labs and send them to me for feedback before giving them to their students. I've had TAs that would keep sending me the same terrible questions with slightly different wording, even with feedback that the questions were not answerable/too challenging/not even a question and instructions to delete them and start over.
Let's see. Over the past 20 or so days:
--The curse of the white font has returned. A guy submitted a homework assignment targeted at 400-600 words that showed a word count of 5xx. Yet the text was about 3/5 of a page long, double-spaced, including header. Yep, I did "select all" and changed the font to red, and found strings of 2-character chunks of gibberish at the end of every line, including the header. I returned it with a zero and the comment that when he decided to get serious about trying to actually do some work, I'd get serious about reading and grading it.
--After returning that to the student, with the usual announcement instructing them to review both the grade and my feedback, the essay was due < 24 hours later. Yep--same a**hole did the same damned thing on the essay. This time, on a target of 1200 words, 28% of it was white-font gibberish. That got him an official misconduct complaint (for all the good it will amount to), and he dropped the class without a word. (Or maybe there were words, but they were white, and I couldn't see them......)
--In the absolutely ridiculous mandated Comp I course of record, the developer put in a research paper at the end of the term, with clear examples and instruction about plagiarism avoidance. As a result, I've graded many papers down heavily for missing documentation in that section of the rubric (to be warm and fuzzy rather than giving the zeros they've earned), and I've put way too much time in feedback and commentary to show how and where they should have cited. That's fine. . . except for the TWO nearly completely copied and pasted submissions I graded yesterday--two different students in the same section. Both are awful writers who magically turned into published authors and then back again, within their single papers. So, I ended up spending much more time filing the plagiarism cases on these two characters than either of them put in to create their submissions.
--One of these plagiarists was after me on email all morning while I was teaching: she had no idea she couldn't do that, is sure that if she could just go back in and put quotes around the stolen text (we're talking literally multiple paragraphs cut ad pasted in their original sequence) it would be OK, it really doesn't need citations (which is beside the point, and yes, it does), etc. In the second round, I was frustrated and said, "Look, you committed theft, and you got caught. Somebody had to research and write that stuff, and you stole it, turned it in with your name on it, and clearly expected me to give you a good grade when you didn't do a damned thing--you couldn't even be bothered to change a word here and there. This is the very definition of 'intent to deceive,' and saying 'I didn't know' doesn't shield you--you had tons of reading and homework assignments on it, and you did fine on those. Just being lazy and then trying to weasel your way out of it is too bad." THAT she finally got, and she finally apologized.
Damn to hell. This semester needs to be done already. I haven't smoked in nearly 9 years or had a drink in many more years than that, but I'm really missing my Marlboros and bourbon these days.
The good news is, I'm past caring at this point. I'm sure I'll hear from the other plagiarist, and I'm braced for more fun and games in the other sections. At this point, they've beaten me down. I'll grade and comment as needed and then forget about it. At least I have plenty of appropriate comments (and email material) so that I can just copy and paste, myself. (My chair is aware of all this and is ready, should any more come up about it. He's made clear that I've been a lot nicer than he would/will be.)
Wow. What a mess. My sympathies.
Daaayum, AmLitHist. That's some crap!
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 08, 2020, 01:56:52 PM
Let's see. Over the past 20 or so days:
--The curse of the white font has returned. A guy submitted a homework assignment targeted at 400-600 words that showed a word count of 5xx. Yet the text was about 3/5 of a page long, double-spaced, including header. Yep, I did "select all" and changed the font to red, and found strings of 2-character chunks of gibberish at the end of every line, including the header. I returned it with a zero and the comment that when he decided to get serious about trying to actually do some work, I'd get serious about reading and grading it.
--After returning that to the student, with the usual announcement instructing them to review both the grade and my feedback, the essay was due < 24 hours later. Yep--same a**hole did the same damned thing on the essay. This time, on a target of 1200 words, 28% of it was white-font gibberish. That got him an official misconduct complaint (for all the good it will amount to), and he dropped the class without a word. (Or maybe there were words, but they were white, and I couldn't see them......)
--In the absolutely ridiculous mandated Comp I course of record, the developer put in a research paper at the end of the term, with clear examples and instruction about plagiarism avoidance. As a result, I've graded many papers down heavily for missing documentation in that section of the rubric (to be warm and fuzzy rather than giving the zeros they've earned), and I've put way too much time in feedback and commentary to show how and where they should have cited. That's fine. . . except for the TWO nearly completely copied and pasted submissions I graded yesterday--two different students in the same section. Both are awful writers who magically turned into published authors and then back again, within their single papers. So, I ended up spending much more time filing the plagiarism cases on these two characters than either of them put in to create their submissions.
--One of these plagiarists was after me on email all morning while I was teaching: she had no idea she couldn't do that, is sure that if she could just go back in and put quotes around the stolen text (we're talking literally multiple paragraphs cut ad pasted in their original sequence) it would be OK, it really doesn't need citations (which is beside the point, and yes, it does), etc. In the second round, I was frustrated and said, "Look, you committed theft, and you got caught. Somebody had to research and write that stuff, and you stole it, turned it in with your name on it, and clearly expected me to give you a good grade when you didn't do a damned thing--you couldn't even be bothered to change a word here and there. This is the very definition of 'intent to deceive,' and saying 'I didn't know' doesn't shield you--you had tons of reading and homework assignments on it, and you did fine on those. Just being lazy and then trying to weasel your way out of it is too bad." THAT she finally got, and she finally apologized.
Damn to hell. This semester needs to be done already. I haven't smoked in nearly 9 years or had a drink in many more years than that, but I'm really missing my Marlboros and bourbon these days.
The good news is, I'm past caring at this point. I'm sure I'll hear from the other plagiarist, and I'm braced for more fun and games in the other sections. At this point, they've beaten me down. I'll grade and comment as needed and then forget about it. At least I have plenty of appropriate comments (and email material) so that I can just copy and paste, myself. (My chair is aware of all this and is ready, should any more come up about it. He's made clear that I've been a lot nicer than he would/will be.)
Was all the white text about penises? (Interthreaduality)
M.
That is awful, AmLitHist. I will sip a whisky in your honor tonight. I hope it gets better.
My most recent plagiarist (who also recently emailed to complain) also does not believe the numerous copied and pasted sentences--with ONE citation in the whole essay, which says just (JSTOR)--count as plagiarism. Fortunately, I require all my Comp 1 students to take the plagiarism test offered through Indiana University. I really want to write my own (theirs is in APA and the answers are becoming increasingly easier to Google search) but I never have the time--or stay at a university long enough--to do it. It is (a little too) hard: they try it once, we discuss the results in class, and then they have another week to pass. This makes my next steps much easier.
AR.
Sorry for the double post. This was going to go on the "grading" thread, but I am mostly just annoyed with myself for creating extra work, so it came here instead.
One of my classes had to upload a list of sources for their final research essay, and I stupidly told them that they could either list the information or required or submit a works cited page. I would only grade the sources, I said, but could give feedback on the works cited pages if they wanted to double-check.
Foolish me! Now I have a whole host of works cited pages copied and pasted from various auto-citation generators. I can tell because many errors are standard, but I can also tell because various entries are in (many) different citation styles, even within a single works cited page. There is no way to specify "If you actually tried to do your citations yourself, I will look at them, but if you copy & paste the library citation or use a citation generator, you are responsible for the errors it introduces" when I offer to look over works cited pages. Obviously I can type (and am typing) a version of the latter half of that into many of my comments, but it's mindboggling that they don't even notice the differences. I may not offer to give feedback on these next semester. Maybe I will instead have them evaluate the accuracy of a library-generated citation against the MANY excellent resources I have provided that they have clearly all ignored. Ugh!
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on December 09, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Sorry for the double post. This was going to go on the "grading" thread, but I am mostly just annoyed with myself for creating extra work, so it came here instead.
One of my classes had to upload a list of sources for their final research essay, and I stupidly told them that they could either list the information or required or submit a works cited page. I would only grade the sources, I said, but could give feedback on the works cited pages if they wanted to double-check.
Foolish me! Now I have a whole host of works cited pages copied and pasted from various auto-citation generators. I can tell because many errors are standard, but I can also tell because various entries are in (many) different citation styles, even within a single works cited page. There is no way to specify "If you actually tried to do your citations yourself, I will look at them, but if you copy & paste the library citation or use a citation generator, you are responsible for the errors it introduces" when I offer to look over works cited pages. Obviously I can type (and am typing) a version of the latter half of that into many of my comments, but it's mindboggling that they don't even notice the differences. I may not offer to give feedback on these next semester. Maybe I will instead have them evaluate the accuracy of a library-generated citation against the MANY excellent resources I have provided that they have clearly all ignored. Ugh!
AR.
It's disturbing to think that behaviors like this are so widespread. So much of what's on this thread is an effort to substitute token compliance with the letter of the instructions for actual, substantial effort. It's as if it has become a ingrained behavior for large numbers of students. Like it's all they know how to do. Imagine the sorts of things that this mentality must lead to outside the classroom.
Dear students,
Due to previous students saying it would have been really great to have more time on the last project, we moved the start of the project a week earlier this term. You have had the guidelines, grading rubric, 2 full class periods, and 3 weeks to work on it. I've held office hours, your TAs have held office hours. You've had lots of time to think and work and ask questions. Most of you have done a fantastic job. But some of you have decided to wait until the night before/morning of to finish. Not a good plan on your part and not an emergency on my part. I'll answer your emails, but not at 2:00am since I'm asleep (and you should be too!).
Quote
It's disturbing to think that behaviors like this are so widespread. So much of what's on this thread is an effort to substitute token compliance with the letter of the instructions for actual, substantial effort. It's as if it has become a ingrained behavior for large numbers of students. Like it's all they know how to do. Imagine the sorts of things that this mentality must lead to outside the classroom.
Agreed. I made the mistake of using a text where there are a lot of summaries that contain enough information that could be plausibly connected to the assignment question and a fairly large number of students more or less copied those summaries without adding much of anything to make that connection.
Quote from: Puget on December 07, 2020, 05:43:46 PM
3. Friend was visiting from out of town and had a torn esophagus requiring student to wait at hospital without computer (I have thoughts about visiting friends in a pandemic, plus what hospitals currently allow non-patients inside??)
I received a long email from a student patiently explaining to me how everything I do is wrong. One of my many transgressions is that the amount of time he has to spend studying for my class stops him from getting together with his friends on the weekend and having a social life.
I really wanted to respond with something to the effect of "Given that we are in the midst of a global pandemic and should not be getting together with others outside our households, I will read this as 'your class may have saved my life.' You're welcome."
Quote from: Chemystery on December 09, 2020, 07:40:00 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 07, 2020, 05:43:46 PM
3. Friend was visiting from out of town and had a torn esophagus requiring student to wait at hospital without computer (I have thoughts about visiting friends in a pandemic, plus what hospitals currently allow non-patients inside??)
I received a long email from a student patiently explaining to me how everything I do is wrong. One of my many transgressions is that the amount of time he has to spend studying for my class stops him from getting together with his friends on the weekend and having a social life.
I really wanted to respond with something to the effect of "Given that we are in the midst of a global pandemic and should not be getting together with others outside our households, I will read this as 'your class may have saved my life.' You're welcome."
LOL! I like this response!
I have a student that contributed very little to a group project and missed the presentation. I'm giving them a chance to earn a better grade than their current 0*, but they have until 4:00 today. Haven't heard from them yet and the clock is ticking.
*Why? Because I want it documented that I gave them an opportunity to succeed. Well-prepared students would have already done the make-up presentation or at least sent an email to say "thank you, may I present at X time?".
Sorry to double-post:
The student was a no-show and didn't even contact me*. Time to put that very well-earned 0 in the grade book and save those emails.
*In an ironic twist, they did text their group members to beg them to "write down what to say" about the project. They declined (and forwarded me the messages).
We were in some training session (I think it was about gen-ed something-or-other) way back when, and faculty were lamenting/whining about how much time we spend within our syllabi and our professional lives acting as if we teach to classrooms full of sociopaths.
The trainer pointed out that if 1% to 5% of the general population consists of sociopaths, mathematically, faculty had damn-well better keep covering their a$$es.
That response has always stuck with me.
A few days ago, a couple days before the deadline, a student emailed me a draft of their paper to read. (So many have done this, despite repeated warning that I won't do it, and that the whole point of giving them the topics on the first day of class and allowing them to rewrite their papers is to give those who need it a chance to consider my feedback. Anyway.) I took pity on her and gave it a quick skim. Good thing I did, because she wasn't citing properly, was citing external sources (which I've forbidden), and wasn't discussing the article I required them to discuss in the first place.
Yesterday--which was a day after the deadline!--I got another email from her begging me to look at another draft. I refused, but I was curious so I checked it out. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed--including the fact that it's still not actually the assignment I assigned. WTF? Come on!
I suspect there are a fair few of them like that, lurking in the pile. Sigh.
Last week: meeting with student regarding cheating on the final project. Student appears appropriately contrite.
This week: now scheduling a meeting with same student regarding plagiarism on the very last assignment in this class.
<bang>
<head>
<desk>
As I do every semester, students are grouped into teams for projects and there is a teammate evaluation at the end of the semester in which students rank each other's contributions. I compute an average ranking for each person on each team, which contributes a minimal amount toward the course grade. The whole process is outlined in the syllabus and in the quiz on the syllabus. The evaluation form I send out (a Google Form) contains explicit directions, such as "you have 10 points to distribute among all members of your team, including yourself, however you see fit. If the scores you assign total more than 10, your response will be discarded."
So of course I get students doing things like awarding 7, 8, 9, or 10 points to everyone on their team. Or not completing the evaluation at all. Or being willfully ignorant of terms like "average." Or refusing to understand that all points earned contribute to the course grade whereas a less than perfect score does not translate into being penalized by having points they never earned taken away.
And of course I begin receiving email complaints from students -- all of whom "just don't understand" how they could not be regarded as the most valuable member of their respective teams -- within seconds of posting scores in the LMS gradebook this morning.
Student with a D who has never responded to any of my messages all semester does not turn in final assignment (worth 10% of grade), and does not respond to my messages informing her that she is losing 10% in late penalties every day and that Friday is the last day to turn it in for any points (40% late penalty). Then she submits the assignment at 4:30 AM this Morning, which is no longer Friday even if the sun isn't up yet. And TurnItIn shows she's plagiarized 20% of it from the sources. Now I have to decide whether to just give her a zero or fill out an academic misconduct report. Probably I'll just give her a zero, explain why and warn her never to do it again, not that I have much confidence she'll read or attend to that message either.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 11, 2020, 11:40:42 AM
A few days ago, a couple days before the deadline, a student emailed me a draft of their paper to read. (So many have done this, despite repeated warning that I won't do it, and that the whole point of giving them the topics on the first day of class and allowing them to rewrite their papers is to give those who need it a chance to consider my feedback. Anyway.) I took pity on her and gave it a quick skim. Good thing I did, because she wasn't citing properly, was citing external sources (which I've forbidden), and wasn't discussing the article I required them to discuss in the first place.
Yesterday--which was a day after the deadline!--I got another email from her begging me to look at another draft. I refused, but I was curious so I checked it out. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed--including the fact that it's still not actually the assignment I assigned. WTF? Come on!
And again, a third time.
Quote from: Puget on December 12, 2020, 10:39:17 AM
Student with a D who has never responded to any of my messages all semester does not turn in final assignment (worth 10% of grade), and does not respond to my messages informing her that she is losing 10% in late penalties every day and that Friday is the last day to turn it in for any points (40% late penalty). Then she submits the assignment at 4:30 AM this Morning, which is no longer Friday even if the sun isn't up yet. And TurnItIn shows she's plagiarized 20% of it from the sources. Now I have to decide whether to just give her a zero or fill out an academic misconduct report. Probably I'll just give her a zero, explain why and warn her never to do it again, not that I have much confidence she'll read or attend to that message either.
What to do about the plagiarized work that won't be eligible for a grade is a common quandary. Because the process at my school requires a meeting with the student as the first step in any academic misconduct filing, I have come to the decision that it is not worth my time to file misconduct reports for work that will not be graded (also, my misconduct sanctions are almost always a zero on the assignment, so that is equivalent to the grade they earned). At the same time, I am aware that it is important to get this information on the record, as it is both a learning opportunity for the student, and important for the University to see the pattern of behavior if it is repeated in other classes. My large scale solution to this problem is to not allow students to submit late work, so therefore I cannot see work that will not be graded. However, I have a few exceptions to this rule, and I always kick myself when it results in this situation.
Stu who uploaded the peer review pages instead of hu's draft and failed to see my comments regarding the wrong submission has now sent four emails since 7 PM yesterday along the lines of "woe is me, I don't have any feedback on my draft, I'm at a disadvantage, please look at my draft now and give me feedback". Stu, read my comments. I alerted you on Wednesday and completed reviewing the drafts on Thursday. What were you doing on Friday? Thursday evening? I am not a 24-hour 800 number customer service person. Aaargh!!!
Multiple students who took incompletes for a class in the Spring term were emailing within 1-2 days of the due date for their incomplete work (which included a final term paper). Between the end of Spring and the due date they have had roughly six months to finish their work.
-"What were the requirements for the paper again? I forget what we're supposed to write about."
-"I can't find the outline I made in the Spring. Do you have any notes on what I was going to write about?"
-"So, it's like an essay or something right?"
[I remind them they're supposed to write a literature review]
-"Could you explain again what a literature review is supposed to look like?"
I was getting stressed just reading their questions. I get waiting until the last minute to finish the writing, but not for 1) getting familiar with the assignment's requirements and 2) extracting and synthesizing information from a couple dozen research articles.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on December 13, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
Multiple students who took incompletes for a class in the Spring term were emailing within 1-2 days of the due date for their incomplete work (which included a final term paper). Between the end of Spring and the due date they have had roughly six months to finish their work.
-"What were the requirements for the paper again? I forget what we're supposed to write about."
-"I can't find the outline I made in the Spring. Do you have any notes on what I was going to write about?"
-"So, it's like an essay or something right?"
[I remind them they're supposed to write a literature review]
-"Could you explain again what a literature review is supposed to look like?"
I was getting stressed just reading their questions. I get waiting until the last minute to finish the writing, but not for 1) getting familiar with the assignment's requirements and 2) extracting and synthesizing information from a couple dozen research articles.
Are these the students who were told by a TA that they did not have to complete a term paper? I think I remember something about that and was curious the outcome.
The final paper for my research class was due yesterday. Students have known about it all semester, samples from previous students were provided, and we have been working on it in staged steps for two months. Yesterday, 50 minutes before it was due, a student emailed me to say he wasn't clear in what the paper is supposed to be about and could I clarify. Sigh.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 14, 2020, 06:15:20 AM
The final paper for my research class was due yesterday. Students have known about it all semester, samples from previous students were provided, and we have been working on it in staged steps for two months. Yesterday, 50 minutes before it was due, a student emailed me to say he wasn't clear in what the paper is supposed to be about and could I clarify. Sigh.
I've always wanted to reply to these with just, "Bruh . . ."
I usually just suggest they review my videos and my emails on the topic and let me know where exactly they are getting lost. I'm not spending my time reviewing weeks' worth of information and inserting it into their heads. This ain't
The Matrix.
Quote from: Charlotte on December 14, 2020, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on December 13, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
Multiple students who took incompletes for a class in the Spring term were emailing within 1-2 days of the due date for their incomplete work (which included a final term paper). Between the end of Spring and the due date they have had roughly six months to finish their work.
-"What were the requirements for the paper again? I forget what we're supposed to write about."
-"I can't find the outline I made in the Spring. Do you have any notes on what I was going to write about?"
-"So, it's like an essay or something right?"
[I remind them they're supposed to write a literature review]
-"Could you explain again what a literature review is supposed to look like?"
I was getting stressed just reading their questions. I get waiting until the last minute to finish the writing, but not for 1) getting familiar with the assignment's requirements and 2) extracting and synthesizing information from a couple dozen research articles.
Are these the students who were told by a TA that they did not have to complete a term paper? I think I remember something about that and was curious the outcome.
About half of them were. The other half were students in my sections, who knew about the paper but filed for Incompletes before end of Spring term. The students who were told they didn't have to complete the term paper got surprise, retroactive Incompletes.
I think only one student failed to get their paper in this time. And the Prof. seemed to be considering capping the lowest possible grade at a C (even though, technically, no final paper would lead to an F).
I suspect a paper written that last minute has a higher chance of containing plagiarism, but I doubt the professor will spend much time following up with something like that. I think everyone involved just wants everything related to this course to be concluded.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on December 15, 2020, 11:58:33 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on December 14, 2020, 04:15:59 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on December 13, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
Multiple students who took incompletes for a class in the Spring term were emailing within 1-2 days of the due date for their incomplete work (which included a final term paper). Between the end of Spring and the due date they have had roughly six months to finish their work.
-"What were the requirements for the paper again? I forget what we're supposed to write about."
-"I can't find the outline I made in the Spring. Do you have any notes on what I was going to write about?"
-"So, it's like an essay or something right?"
[I remind them they're supposed to write a literature review]
-"Could you explain again what a literature review is supposed to look like?"
I was getting stressed just reading their questions. I get waiting until the last minute to finish the writing, but not for 1) getting familiar with the assignment's requirements and 2) extracting and synthesizing information from a couple dozen research articles.
Are these the students who were told by a TA that they did not have to complete a term paper? I think I remember something about that and was curious the outcome.
About half of them were. The other half were students in my sections, who knew about the paper but filed for Incompletes before end of Spring term. The students who were told they didn't have to complete the term paper got surprise, retroactive Incompletes.
I think only one student failed to get their paper in this time. And the Prof. seemed to be considering capping the lowest possible grade at a C (even though, technically, no final paper would lead to an F).
I suspect a paper written that last minute has a higher chance of containing plagiarism, but I doubt the professor will spend much time following up with something like that. I think everyone involved just wants everything related to this course to be concluded.
The professor made this problem, it's his job to deal with it. Just forward all emails directly to him. You can always cc him in a reply:
Dear student,
Thank you for your email. I have forwarded your questions about how to resolve your Incomplete to Dr. [Whatever].
Best of luck with your exams.
Smallcleanrat
One of my students, whose grades on the major assignments this semester were: B, C+, C-, D+, and D+, emailed me today to ask if she could rewrite the final paper because she "really wants an A- for the class." My fantasy reply would include a mention of a flux capacitor....
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 06:33:41 PM
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
That is Hall of Fame worthy right there. Do you know how the student managed to do that?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 15, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 06:33:41 PM
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
That is Hall of Fame worthy right there. Do you know how the student managed to do that?
I didn't look into it since I was speed grading. I may go back and investigate more. At first glance it appeared to be an error with logarithms.
Edit: I went back and looked because I was curious and I knew that the student totally beefed this report. Student didn't convert units correctly and plotted the wrong things. The slope was used to calculate a linear mass density and that didn't really happen.
Final exam requires students to evaluate documents and produce a recommendation. Directions for the exam include statements to cite sources and "Your work will be assessed by the rubric below." Rubric shows that 40% of exam grade is based on how well cited course readings are used.
Six of the seven exams submitted so far contain zero references to course readings. The seventh has a few random, out-of-context quotations from readings. So, at this point, the highest grade on the exam is a 60.
One student has already sent an email to complain -- literally within seconds of me posting his final exam grade on the LMS.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 15, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 06:33:41 PM
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
That is Hall of Fame worthy right there. Do you know how the student managed to do that?
I didn't look into it since I was speed grading. I may go back and investigate more. At first glance it appeared to be an error with logarithms.
Edit: I went back and looked because I was curious and I knew that the student totally beefed this report. Student didn't convert units correctly and plotted the wrong things. The slope was used to calculate a linear mass density and that didn't really happen.
And no comment at all on the million percent error? As a terrible lab scientist during student times, nearly every lab report included an analysis of why my error was 50 to 100% (turns out I have poor enough color vision that I can't accurately titrate with an indicator; I have shaky hands so doing something in triplicate doesn't tighten the error bars at all especially that time I dropped the strain gauge and then glued its replacement to my finger).
I passed those lab courses on excellent notebooks and error analysis. I got nothing but a big ol' F for someone who plots the wrong things and didn't even ping that a million percent error is very unlikely.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 15, 2020, 05:19:03 PM
One of my students, whose grades on the major assignments this semester were: B, C+, C-, D+, and D+, emailed me today to ask if she could rewrite the final paper because she "really wants an A- for the class." My fantasy reply would include a mention of a flux capacitor....
I wonder what went wrong with this student after what seemed like a good start.
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 06:14:32 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 15, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 06:33:41 PM
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
That is Hall of Fame worthy right there. Do you know how the student managed to do that?
I didn't look into it since I was speed grading. I may go back and investigate more. At first glance it appeared to be an error with logarithms.
Edit: I went back and looked because I was curious and I knew that the student totally beefed this report. Student didn't convert units correctly and plotted the wrong things. The slope was used to calculate a linear mass density and that didn't really happen.
And no comment at all on the million percent error? As a terrible lab scientist during student times, nearly every lab report included an analysis of why my error was 50 to 100% (turns out I have poor enough color vision that I can't accurately titrate with an indicator; I have shaky hands so doing something in triplicate doesn't tighten the error bars at all especially that time I dropped the strain gauge and then glued its replacement to my finger).
I passed those lab courses on excellent notebooks and error analysis. I got nothing but a big ol' F for someone who plots the wrong things and didn't even ping that a million percent error is very unlikely.
Yikes! I have sympathy for students who are riding out the learning curve of how to have good "lab hands". I was miserably bad at titrations, but I at least knew enough to estimate what the volume ought to be when setting up the assay.
If the student had at least written some sort of note to say "my answer seems really, really wrong since it ought to be more like X than Y" I'd give them some pity points.
Quote from: polly_mer on December 16, 2020, 06:14:32 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 15, 2020, 07:14:53 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2020, 06:33:41 PM
Well, a student finally did it. This person got over 1 MILLION percent error on a lab report. Didn't email me about it, just reported it.
Gotta' wonder what they're thinking...
That is Hall of Fame worthy right there. Do you know how the student managed to do that?
I didn't look into it since I was speed grading. I may go back and investigate more. At first glance it appeared to be an error with logarithms.
Edit: I went back and looked because I was curious and I knew that the student totally beefed this report. Student didn't convert units correctly and plotted the wrong things. The slope was used to calculate a linear mass density and that didn't really happen.
And no comment at all on the million percent error? As a terrible lab scientist during student times, nearly every lab report included an analysis of why my error was 50 to 100% (turns out I have poor enough color vision that I can't accurately titrate with an indicator; I have shaky hands so doing something in triplicate doesn't tighten the error bars at all especially that time I dropped the strain gauge and then glued its replacement to my finger).
I passed those lab courses on excellent notebooks and error analysis. I got nothing but a big ol' F for someone who plots the wrong things and didn't even ping that a million percent error is very unlikely.
Are you referring to the student? Stu never emailed me about it. Again, I have to wonder what they're thinking when they record these things.
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Maybe Dunning-Kruger effect? The
inability to grasp the level of performance required to pass makes them think that it just requires a little more effort than in the past.
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Likewise. And I had told her, with advisor cc'ed, that there was no mathematical way for her to pass. A lot of magical thinking going on there. . .
Quote from: Puget on December 17, 2020, 06:33:26 AM
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Likewise. And I had told her, with advisor cc'ed, that there was no mathematical way for her to pass. A lot of magical thinking going on there. . .
Question: Has anyone who has students'
cumulative grades (as opposed to
average grades) displayed had this problem? The math is much more obvious that way. ("Right now you have 17/100. The final is worth 20/100, so the maximum you can get is 37/100; i.e. an F.")
Quote from: Puget on December 17, 2020, 06:33:26 AM
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Likewise. And I had told her, with advisor cc'ed, that there was no mathematical way for her to pass. A lot of magical thinking going on there. . .
Last day of attendance for financial aid?
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 17, 2020, 06:44:41 AM
Question: Has anyone who has students' cumulative grades (as opposed to average grades) displayed had this problem? The math is much more obvious that way. ("Right now you have 17/100. The final is worth 20/100, so the maximum you can get is 37/100; i.e. an F.")
While it helps, I have still had students hoping they could get 450/200 on a final to just barely pass.
Quote from: kiana on December 17, 2020, 06:55:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 17, 2020, 06:33:26 AM
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Likewise. And I had told her, with advisor cc'ed, that there was no mathematical way for her to pass. A lot of magical thinking going on there. . .
Last day of attendance for financial aid?
That was my guess too. I had at least one student per year when I taught intro classes at as a graduate student who would attend the 1st class (I assume to get the syllabus) and the final exam for financial aid attendance purposes.
I remember I was TAing a large intro class, and we had one student who appeared to be using this strategy as they had not taken any of the 1st 3 tests (class was graded on 4 exams, 25% each). The student showed up for the final, bubbled in the scantron ABCD all the way down, and walked out after 5 minutes. The professor of the course had a policy that no one could enter the exam after someone had left (as an attempt at an anti-cheating measure). Four students showed up about 10 minutes late, citing a city bus delay. We, of course, followed our syllabus policy and refused to let them take the exam. :) [/i]
No, of course we let them take the exam. But one of them appeared to be in full panic mode as they (highly observant student) saw that an exam had already been turned in.
Quote from: kiana on December 17, 2020, 06:55:48 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 17, 2020, 06:33:26 AM
Quote from: cathwen on December 17, 2020, 06:21:46 AM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 05:41:30 AM
I just wonder why the student whose total grade before the final is 4% bothers to submit the final. That work was an F too.
I had one like that, too. He went into the final with a 36% average, but took it anyway. He did osss the final, tu it wasn't nearly enough.
Likewise. And I had told her, with advisor cc'ed, that there was no mathematical way for her to pass. A lot of magical thinking going on there. . .
Last day of attendance for financial aid?
In this case, no-- Stu after not responding to any of my or advisors messages all semester had sent a long wall of text email that morning with a tale of mental health woe (which I don't doubt) asking to make up the entire semester of work now. As gently as possible I informed her that wasn't possible and cc'ed her advisor for the two of them to discuss a retroactive medical leave (since she was indeed absent all semester, at least in my class). She either didn't read that email, or didn't believe me, and took the exam anyway (and failed it of course). I feel bad for her, but she needs to get it through her head that she can't get credit for a course she didn't actually take.
For my student, I need to work out whether to give him a F grade or a withdraw/fail grade. Since according to university regs he seems to qualify for withdraw/fail, I will probably do that.
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 08:43:39 AM
For my student, I need to work out whether to give him a F grade or a withdraw/fail grade. Since according to university regs he seems to qualify for withdraw/fail, I will probably do that.
How would someone who has taken the whole course earn a W/F? I'm accustomed to that being the grade recorded about midterms or the last financial aid check date for someone has missed enough consecutive assignments with no contact. I'm accustomed to students being awarded that grade well before finals to prevent the financial aid shenanigans with only appearing for first meeting and the final exam.
Someone who made it to the end, but only had a 4% gets an F.
I teach a sophomore majors course at a CC of which part of the curriculum is college success. So I give every student 5 points to NOT grade grovel. That's less than any assignment and it's more of a tongue-in-cheek way to have a talking point about taking initiative and ownership of your own success. There are also other ways I give students freebies and passes to account for life getting in the way of the occasional assignment.
It's finally happened. And it hit every mark.
Stu: "I know that you hate when people do this and that the 5 extra credit points might be lost but I had to ask...I'm not looking for a hand out I'm willing to work for it but I'm on academic probation and a lot rides on me passing this class I'm normally too prideful to ask for help but my academic future is kind of on the line so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to pass?"
Quote from: Diogenes on December 18, 2020, 04:30:46 AM
I teach a sophomore majors course at a CC of which part of the curriculum is college success. So I give every student 5 points to NOT grade grovel. That's less than any assignment and it's more of a tongue-in-cheek way to have a talking point about taking initiative and ownership of your own success. There are also other ways I give students freebies and passes to account for life getting in the way of the occasional assignment.
It's finally happened. And it hit every mark.
Stu: "I know that you hate when people do this and that the 5 extra credit points might be lost but I had to ask...I'm not looking for a hand out I'm willing to work for it but I'm on academic probation and a lot rides on me passing this class I'm normally too prideful to ask for help but my academic future is kind of on the line so I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to pass?"
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Quote from: Caracal on December 18, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Rarely, but when it worked for them in high school, they haven't really internalized that the rules are different.
Quote from: kiana on December 18, 2020, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 18, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Rarely, but when it worked for them in high school, they haven't really internalized that the rules are different.
Parents who have guarded them against failure and consequences probably have something to do with it too.
Quote from: apl68 on December 18, 2020, 11:25:13 AM
Quote from: kiana on December 18, 2020, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 18, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Rarely, but when it worked for them in high school, they haven't really internalized that the rules are different.
Parents who have guarded them against failure and consequences probably have something to do with it too.
The triumph of hope over logic or reason?
The mindset of "it never hurts to ask"?
Quote from: kiana on December 18, 2020, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 18, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Rarely, but when it worked for them in high school, they haven't really internalized that the rules are different.
I've definitely seen the giving out of extra credit at the end of the semester due to student requests. In a few cases, it was due to administrative pressure (luckily rarely). In one place I worked, a colleague had an optional extra credit assignment on the syllabus that was worth 20% of the course points. So, if the student had a final grade of 65% (D), if they earned 80% on the extra credit assignment, they'd end up with a B (81%) in the course. So, maybe students have taken classes with my previous colleague. That syllabus had departmental approval, so I guess no one was concerned about this. But, having the extra credit specified on the syllabus, I realize is a different issue than creating a new assignment at the end of the semester.
Quote from: polly_mer on December 17, 2020, 04:19:01 PM
Quote from: downer on December 17, 2020, 08:43:39 AM
For my student, I need to work out whether to give him a F grade or a withdraw/fail grade. Since according to university regs he seems to qualify for withdraw/fail, I will probably do that.
How would someone who has taken the whole course earn a W/F? I'm accustomed to that being the grade recorded about midterms or the last financial aid check date for someone has missed enough consecutive assignments with no contact. I'm accustomed to students being awarded that grade well before finals to prevent the financial aid shenanigans with only appearing for first meeting and the final exam.
Someone who made it to the end, but only had a 4% gets an F.
It sounds like the student may have missed a large proportion of the class sessions on the way to the 4% grade. Perhaps the student hadn't shown up for many weeks before taking the final exam?
Quote from: kiana on December 18, 2020, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 18, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
Do you think there are instructors who actually give extra credit in response to that kind of thing? In general I'm pretty flexible and am willing to help students over the line when they've been in touch with me or are having some problem right at the end of class, but I'm never going to just give out some random extra credit assignment to keep someone from failing. Its one of those cases where my moral incentives align very well with the practical ones-I don't want to create and grade something extra from a bad student on top of my mountain of grading.
Rarely, but when it worked for them in high school, they haven't really internalized that the rules are different.
This is probably a big part of it. I had a high school student taking my class last year who, after the grades were reported, claimed to be shocked that she only got an A-. If she had known,
the parent who was using her email account she assured me, she would have asked me for an extra assignment to bring her grade up. This took me by surprise because the way it was stated made it apparent that the student didn't even consider it possible that I would not have created more work for
myself her so that she could avoid the shame of earning an A- in a college chemistry course during her junior year of high school.
This semester my sophomores are attempting to guilt me into raising their grades. Our class ended up being online due to COVID. That means they can't ask questions when they watch my lecture videos (and apparently cannot email them to me or ask them in our multiple live Zoom sessions each week) and I can't see their face to know they're confused (see above re: not being able to tell me this, also I COULD see your faces in our Zoom sessions if you would turn your cameras on). The list goes on and on about all the things they are doing right and that I am being too hard-nosed about. They do not like my insistence that the grades I record are tied to proficiency, not effort, nor their worldview that a good student cannot earn an A- (or worse, a B), in organic chemistry.
I received a report of student evaluations of my teaching today. Sadly, they retain the good/bad split of prior reports. I am both the best and worse teacher they have ever had. I respond promptly and helpfully to emails and also take a very long time to respond and the response is not helpful. The LMS pages are both very well organized and the least favorite thing about the course. The assignments are both clearly described and very confusing. The regular schedule for assignments was helpful to keeping up with the material while it was also overwhelming to have work due every week. In sum, some students enjoyed the class and got something out of it, while others hated it and everything associated with it. Frankly, it is not clear from any of these comments how I could/should improve the course given these diametrically opposite evaluations of various components of the class. Thus, my plan to improve this course is only going to be based on my own evaluation as to whether specific activities appear to be achieving the specified learning outcomes based on the work submitted, not based on the students' evaluation of their experience in the course. On the positive side, I am pretty pleased with the course organization in the LMS and at least one student approved. So that's a win.
When were the evaluations submitted? After students knew midterm and/or assignment grades?
If yes, that's the answer key.
Quote from: arcturus on December 22, 2020, 04:30:00 PM
I received a report of student evaluations of my teaching today. Sadly, they retain the good/bad split of prior reports. I am both the best and worse teacher they have ever had. I respond promptly and helpfully to emails and also take a very long time to respond and the response is not helpful. The LMS pages are both very well organized and the least favorite thing about the course. The assignments are both clearly described and very confusing. The regular schedule for assignments was helpful to keeping up with the material while it was also overwhelming to have work due every week. In sum, some students enjoyed the class and got something out of it, while others hated it and everything associated with it. Frankly, it is not clear from any of these comments how I could/should improve the course given these diametrically opposite evaluations of various components of the class. Thus, my plan to improve this course is only going to be based on my own evaluation as to whether specific activities appear to be achieving the specified learning outcomes based on the work submitted, not based on the students' evaluation of their experience in the course. On the positive side, I am pretty pleased with the course organization in the LMS and at least one student approved. So that's a win.
Just came from reading my course evaluations and experienced the same. In particular there was one student who said I was rude, unprofessional, and took points off for no reason. They said the evaluation should go to someone high up because I need to be fired. First semester teaching here so a little concerned but also upset because I worked really hard to be kind and helpful. I provided specific feedback, went above and beyond to find resources to help students, generous with grades, responded quickly to questions, and yet this one student apparently hates me.
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
There's a non-zero chance that this is a mostly disengaged student who has mixed you up with another instructor! (This has happened to me more than once, not just being confused with other women profs, but even being emailed assignments intended for male colleagues - our names are nothing alike - so nothing is outside the realm of possibility when it comes to student confusion).
Quote from: bacardiandlime on December 23, 2020, 05:17:15 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
There's a non-zero chance that this is a mostly disengaged student who has mixed you up with another instructor! (This has happened to me more than once, not just being confused with other women profs, but even being emailed assignments intended for male colleagues - our names are nothing alike - so nothing is outside the realm of possibility when it comes to student confusion).
So you expect that by the end of the course all of the students should know your name? That's a pretty high bar for some.
(I had an end-of-term lab survey given out in multiple sections. One question was: Who was your TA? M/C "Bob - Alice -I don't know" There were people who picked "I don't know".)
Science labs are for teaching people to be keen observers.
Professors whose institutions place undue weight on student evaluations should examine this website: https://benschmidt.org/profGender/#
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
Quote from: arcturus on December 22, 2020, 04:30:00 PM
I received a report of student evaluations of my teaching today. Sadly, they retain the good/bad split of prior reports. I am both the best and worse teacher they have ever had. I respond promptly and helpfully to emails and also take a very long time to respond and the response is not helpful. The LMS pages are both very well organized and the least favorite thing about the course. The assignments are both clearly described and very confusing. The regular schedule for assignments was helpful to keeping up with the material while it was also overwhelming to have work due every week. In sum, some students enjoyed the class and got something out of it, while others hated it and everything associated with it. Frankly, it is not clear from any of these comments how I could/should improve the course given these diametrically opposite evaluations of various components of the class. Thus, my plan to improve this course is only going to be based on my own evaluation as to whether specific activities appear to be achieving the specified learning outcomes based on the work submitted, not based on the students' evaluation of their experience in the course. On the positive side, I am pretty pleased with the course organization in the LMS and at least one student approved. So that's a win.
Just came from reading my course evaluations and experienced the same. In particular there was one student who said I was rude, unprofessional, and took points off for no reason. They said the evaluation should go to someone high up because I need to be fired. First semester teaching here so a little concerned but also upset because I worked really hard to be kind and helpful. I provided specific feedback, went above and beyond to find resources to help students, generous with grades, responded quickly to questions, and yet this one student apparently hates me.
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
I got this kind of response a few times my first year. Some students were under the impression that the course I was teaching required no work. I discovered later that some previous instructors in fact were teaching it at a 9th grade level. Once I got a reputation the students who registered for my sections were more serious. But since this is a one-off I would ignore it.
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
Just came from reading my course evaluations and experienced the same. In particular there was one student who said I was rude, unprofessional, and took points off for no reason. They said the evaluation should go to someone high up because I need to be fired. First semester teaching here so a little concerned but also upset because I worked really hard to be kind and helpful. I provided specific feedback, went above and beyond to find resources to help students, generous with grades, responded quickly to questions, and yet this one student apparently hates me.
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
It's long been a running joke that if I don't get either an evaluation or a nasty email to the chair/dean like the bolded, I'm clearly not doing my job. Don't sweat it--you'll be fine (and congrats on making it through your first semester!).
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 23, 2020, 08:15:56 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
Just came from reading my course evaluations and experienced the same. In particular there was one student who said I was rude, unprofessional, and took points off for no reason. They said the evaluation should go to someone high up because I need to be fired. First semester teaching here so a little concerned but also upset because I worked really hard to be kind and helpful. I provided specific feedback, went above and beyond to find resources to help students, generous with grades, responded quickly to questions, and yet this one student apparently hates me.
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
It's long been a running joke that if I don't get either an evaluation or a nasty email to the chair/dean like the bolded, I'm clearly not doing my job. Don't sweat it--you'll be fine (and congrats on making it through your first semester!).
Welcome to the club, Charlotte! My first semester of teaching, I received an evaluation that stated I was the worst professor they had ever had, and I should be immediately fired. In my case, it was not unexpected, as I had a student who challenged my teaching and policies from Day 1. That student had disagreed with one of my syllabus policies, and emailed my chair to insist that the chair make me change the policy (chair told me it was my discretion). So, I was prepared for the eval. I'm sorry yours came as a shock. As AmLitHist says, don't sweat it, it happens. Celebrate the end of the semester with a beverage (and/or cookies) of your choice. Once you've had a break, take a look at the evals as a whole and see if there is anything you'd like to try adjust next time. Remember, this semester is an outlier for so many reasons and will likely not be reflective of your teaching career.
Yes. Ignore the one complainer.
If used seriously at all, multiple evals should be viewed over multiple semesters and only then be used to address patterns in the complaints. For example, if the evals repeatedly suggest an instructor's grading is unclear, then it's worth looking into and seeing what could be improved in that one area. But if it's just a few students who are whining about how their grade doesn't match the image they have of themselves, then no.
And it's very unusual for a student to hate you on a personal level because they don't really know you. They may hate some concept or idea or process that they think you represent, but it's not really you on a personal level. And you really can't change this hostility housed in a few students, no matter what you see in the movies.
You survived your first semester of teaching. You win!
Another Welcome to the Club, Charlotte. Evaluations like that can really hurt. Even if there are a bunch of good ones, it's the bad one that sticks with you. Back when I was a graduate TA, I had one student who wrote, in teeny-tiny writing, an entire essay on why I was such a horrible teacher. She even criticized the way I dressed! Ironically, I had gone out of my way to help her, as she was having a hard time. Office hours, extra hours, etc.
And I know who it was, because in those days, the instructor just collected the forms, took them home and read them, and then turned them in to the office the next day. I recognized the handwriting. This is the only evaluation that I have ever destroyed. I crumpled it up and tossed it into the wood stove.
My annual review meeting will be interesting in light of my evals. Response rates were much lower than normal. The eval scores weren't much lower than other terms, but there were more negative comments. Most of them were the "he takes a gen-ed class too seriously" and "he's too hard for a lower level class." One comment was long and incoherent (much like that student's essay submissions). Yet this class had more misconduct cases than the past 3 years, and the bifurcated final grades show a high number of both As and low Fs. The big picture really helps contextualize some of the nastiness. So, to the OP: as others have said, a few more terms will help you develop a bigger picture.
Chacun a son gout.
Some loved me: "Best ever;" some--well, words can hardly express the hate.
What do eighteen-year-olds really know? What they like; what they do not? Sure! But are their criteria "informed"? OK, OK--let them say what they think. Maybe they are more percipient than not.
They are gone next semester; you remain. And yet...
Quote from: Charlotte on December 23, 2020, 04:50:42 AM
I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I am. First semester teaching and I thought I did better... or at least taught in such a way that no students would hate me!
Just to re-iterate what everyone else said, I get how this feels sucky, but it is not a reflection of you at all. Everyone gets negative evaluations like this, and negative comments stand out more than positive ones even if there is only one negative evaluation and many that say all kinds of nice things (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negativity_bias)). I'm impressed that it was just the one student during your first year of teaching!
Also, it can actually be helpful to have negative evaluations during the first year, because that makes it easier to show improvement over time. That's preferable to doing fabulously your first year and then getting worse evaluations after that.
Quote from: Juvenal on December 24, 2020, 10:22:01 AM
What do eighteen-year-olds really know? What they like; what they do not? Sure! But are their criteria "informed"? OK, OK--let them say what they think. Maybe they are more percipient than not.
They are gone next semester; you remain. And yet...
I would like to see student evaluations that are not written until the end of the following semester. After emotions cooled and they saw whether or not it better prepared them for the next step.
Quote from: Diogenes on December 27, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on December 24, 2020, 10:22:01 AM
What do eighteen-year-olds really know? What they like; what they do not? Sure! But are their criteria "informed"? OK, OK--let them say what they think. Maybe they are more percipient than not.
They are gone next semester; you remain. And yet...
I would like to see student evaluations that are not written until the end of the following semester. After emotions cooled and they saw whether or not it better prepared them for the next step.
What I'd be genuinely curious to see is evaluations a decade after students graduate. There were courses that frustrated the crap out of me as an undergrad or grad student that, years later, came to appear as foundational in my thinking. The frustration was very productive, but also a very slow burn.
Quote from: Diogenes on December 27, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on December 24, 2020, 10:22:01 AM
What do eighteen-year-olds really know? What they like; what they do not? Sure! But are their criteria "informed"? OK, OK--let them say what they think. Maybe they are more percipient than not.
They are gone next semester; you remain. And yet...
I would like to see student evaluations that are not written until the end of the following semester. After emotions cooled and they saw whether or not it better prepared them for the next step.
I would like to see evaluations of students. "Zachary Olsen's performance in Basketweaving 101 was lackluster, perhaps due to spotty attendance and a lack of note-taking." The results get compiled every semester and are sent to the student's respective advisor, other relevant parties, and to the student in the form of a running dossier.
Quote from: spork on December 27, 2020, 10:29:35 AM
I would like to see evaluations of students. "Zachary Olsen's performance in Basketweaving 101 was lackluster, perhaps due to spotty attendance and a lack of note-taking." The results get compiled every semester and are sent to the student's respective advisor, other relevant parties, and to the student in the form of a running dossier.
Some schools do this. (https://www.evergreen.edu/evaluations)
Quote from: sprout on December 28, 2020, 09:58:53 AM
Quote from: spork on December 27, 2020, 10:29:35 AM
I would like to see evaluations of students. "Zachary Olsen's performance in Basketweaving 101 was lackluster, perhaps due to spotty attendance and a lack of note-taking." The results get compiled every semester and are sent to the student's respective advisor, other relevant parties, and to the student in the form of a running dossier.
Some schools do this. (https://www.evergreen.edu/evaluations)
That sounds like an incredibly tedious process.
Boarding schools do this as a matter of course. It's one of their key selling points. Whether the average undergraduate, c. 2020, could also use such services is perhaps a matter of debate, but I tend to vote yes.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 28, 2020, 10:46:36 PM
Boarding schools do this as a matter of course. It's one of their key selling points. Whether the average undergraduate, c. 2020, could also use such services is perhaps a matter of debate, but I tend to vote yes.
From the article:
Quote
All the work you do is potentially part of your evaluation. Faculty will look at the assignments, tests, presentations, and other projects as they prepare to evaluate your work.
The narrative evaluation is a dialogue. You'll get more feedback with how well you're doing, so you know where to go next, and what you're prepared for. The level of detail in an evaluation can go far beyond a single letter or number. It can help you improve over the course of your college career and do your best.
Students and faculty are encouraged to meet during Evaluation Week to share what they've written. This is an opportunity for you to talk in person about what will go into your transcript.
Yes this would be wonderful to do for each and every one of the hundreds of students an instructor has each term.
How many ft tt profs really teach hundreds of students per year or semester, and how many of these do so without TAs? On the contrary, however, most public hs teachers certainly have triple digit student counts, usually without any paraprofessional aid, which is of course why those prep schools can and do offer so much more intensive teacher feedback regimens.
I typically have 80 students per term. If I had time to give them more individual attention than I currently do, there are a lot of things I'd help them with, starting with the mechanics and organization of their writing, which are on average pretty lackluster. More individualized evaluation at the end would be pretty useless, comparatively speaking. In general they know what parts of the course they're not so good at. What they lack is one or both of the following: guidance to improve the skills they're weak on; the motivation to care.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 29, 2020, 09:26:48 PM
How many ft tt profs really teach hundreds of students per year or semester, and how many of these do so without TAs?
TAs aren't going to help at all with the "personalized" feedback; that's going to have to be done by the prof. As for how common it is, in lots of places all of the first year courses have hundreds of students, and in those programs it's not until 4th year that students will possibly experience a course with single-digit enrolment. In those places basically all of the profs will have hundreds of students.
Quote
On the contrary, however, most public hs teachers certainly have triple digit student counts, usually without any paraprofessional aid, which is of course why those prep schools can and do offer so much more intensive teacher feedback regimens.
For years here, the report cards have been created using software, which includes lists of comments teachers can pick from. They're only "personalized" by which comments a teacher picks for a given student.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 30, 2020, 05:05:38 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 29, 2020, 09:26:48 PM
How many ft tt profs really teach hundreds of students per year or semester, and how many of these do so without TAs?
TAs aren't going to help at all with the "personalized" feedback; that's going to have to be done by the prof. As for how common it is, in lots of places all of the first year courses have hundreds of students, and in those programs it's not until 4th year that students will possibly experience a course with single-digit enrolment. In those places basically all of the profs will have hundreds of students.
Well, when I was a TA we were required to at least try to provide substantial personalized feedback. Whether it was worth as much as what the prof could give is another matter.
Quote from: apl68 on December 30, 2020, 08:08:43 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 30, 2020, 05:05:38 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 29, 2020, 09:26:48 PM
How many ft tt profs really teach hundreds of students per year or semester, and how many of these do so without TAs?
TAs aren't going to help at all with the "personalized" feedback; that's going to have to be done by the prof. As for how common it is, in lots of places all of the first year courses have hundreds of students, and in those programs it's not until 4th year that students will possibly experience a course with single-digit enrolment. In those places basically all of the profs will have hundreds of students.
Well, when I was a TA we were required to at least try to provide substantial personalized feedback. Whether it was worth as much as what the prof could give is another matter.
If the prof has to sit down and discuss with each student, s/he will still have to spend significant time going over whatever feedback the TAs have given about each student, which will still be incredibly time-consuming.
I have eight classes of 35, although they're usually over-enrolled by 5-10. Say ~160 per semester, ~320 per year. No TAs or grading support.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 30, 2020, 10:11:37 AM
I have eight classes of 35, although they're usually over-enrolled by 5-10. Say ~160 per semester, ~320 per year. No TAs or grading support.
Ouch. That makes the work you describe in the research threads all the more impressive.
Quote from: traductio on December 27, 2020, 08:50:52 AM
Quote from: Diogenes on December 27, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
Quote from: Juvenal on December 24, 2020, 10:22:01 AM
What do eighteen-year-olds really know? What they like; what they do not? Sure! But are their criteria "informed"? OK, OK--let them say what they think. Maybe they are more percipient than not.
They are gone next semester; you remain. And yet...
I would like to see student evaluations that are not written until the end of the following semester. After emotions cooled and they saw whether or not it better prepared them for the next step.
What I'd be genuinely curious to see is evaluations a decade after students graduate. There were courses that frustrated the crap out of me as an undergrad or grad student that, years later, came to appear as foundational in my thinking. The frustration was very productive, but also a very slow burn.
I got an email from a student a few years back that said something along the lines of, "I took Clog Dancing and Society from you 3 years ago. At the time, I thought you were crazy. Now that I am a senior, I get what you were talking about back then."
Course evaluations are a blend of what gets asked, who gets asked and when they get asked. Even if the "what" is addressed by using psychometrically validated instruments, the "who" and "when" are usually 18-22 year olds who are stressed out of their minds with final essays, capstones, exams etc. No wonder the results are often not pretty.
I learned a long time ago that comments like "everybody in the class thought...." means "me and 2 friends". I'm grateful my department heads have historically known how to sort the signal from the noise in my evals.
Quote"I took Clog Dancing and Society from you 3 years ago."
I'm going to guess that was a stand-in for the ubiquitous Basket-weaving meme....
But I did a double take when I saw it. I actually was the TA for course with almost that title.
Part of my job was the accordion accompaniment.
;--}
DL
I am contracted for 5 writing classes with purported caps of 26 each semester, though these caps are actually quite flexible: this fall, 137 students started with me and a few dropped out along the way. I don't have the Spring enrollment yet, but am expecting (hoping for) it to be a little lower. Fingers crossed.
AR.
Back at it. Today was our first day of Spring semester. No Spring Break so we will be done by tax day! Both of my classes are remote and I started with Breakout Rooms to come up with suggestions of how to make the most of a Zoom based course.
Course 1 is a senior/grad level elective. They had good constructive ideas. Course 2 is a requirement for the major (that they generally enjoy), and one they often take fresh out of the Intro series. Its much more a mix of Sophomores through Seniors. They spent all their time urging me to not overwork them and remember that they "have a life too". Sigh.
Quote from: AvidReader on December 30, 2020, 04:58:49 PM
I am contracted for 5 writing classes with purported caps of 26 each semester, though these caps are actually quite flexible: this fall, 137 students started with me and a few dropped out along the way. I don't have the Spring enrollment yet, but am expecting (hoping for) it to be a little lower. Fingers crossed.
AR.
Ugh. My sympathies. I'm sure you are doing good and valuable work, but you just can't possibly teach writing classes as they should be taught with those sort of numbers. I taught classes of 13 for a few semesters and they were taking me more time than my three other classes and other 100 students combined.
Plagiarism. Three cases and counting on the first assignment.
The kicker?
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Plagiarism. Three cases and counting on the first assignment.
The kicker?
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Ha!
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Ha! The only way to make that better is for it to read "The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong because I put up the fake answer to test them!"
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Plagiarism. Three cases and counting on the first assignment.
The kicker?
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Wow, that is . . . special. The first assignment? Got to imagine that the 1st assignment is pretty low-stakes. I can understand (though certainly not condone) panic plagiarism, but the 1st assignment has got to be pure laziness.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 11, 2021, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Plagiarism. Three cases and counting on the first assignment.
The kicker?
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Wow, that is . . . special. The first assignment? Got to imagine that the 1st assignment is pretty low-stakes. I can understand (though certainly not condone) panic plagiarism, but the 1st assignment has got to be pure laziness.
It's low-stakes in that most of the points are just for showing your work. Looks like all 3 cheaters are repeating the course too.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 02:22:10 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 11, 2021, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2021, 11:25:35 AM
Plagiarism. Three cases and counting on the first assignment.
The kicker?
The online answer they used on Chegg is wrong.
Wow, that is . . . special. The first assignment? Got to imagine that the 1st assignment is pretty low-stakes. I can understand (though certainly not condone) panic plagiarism, but the 1st assignment has got to be pure laziness.
It's low-stakes in that most of the points are just for showing your work. Looks like all 3 cheaters are repeating the course too.
Imagine that.
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
It's the first week of class over here and I'm trying to nudge them all towards just taking the attendance and syllabus quizzes. Some of them are in both lecture and lab and 'didn't know' that they had to take these quizzes for BOTH courses. Content remains locked until they take the quizzes. It's all in the syllabi- if they even read them.
SMDH.
I HATE those "course prep/study aid" websites (CourseHero, Chegg, etc.). Partially because they encourage cheating, partially because they claim to NOT be encouraging cheating, and partially because they make students pay for the content. But mostly because they are uncooperative when it comes to tracking down who posted the damn content in the first place.
I can put it requests to remove content since it is all copy-write protected, but they insist on having an official "on University letterhead, signed by [a chair/Dean/etc.], formal charge of Academic Misconduct" before they will divulge any user information. If I knew the student's name, then I wouldn't need to ask for the information. I get the privacy concerns, but they are encouraging dishonest behavior.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 13, 2021, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
I've had some luck with the "send email to students when available" option. Plus listing in the syllabus. Plus stating in a "Welcome to Class" Announcement.
But I still have folks who "Didn't know there was a quiz/worksheet/syllabus"
Maybe make the directions shorter? Bullet points? Record them as a video?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 13, 2021, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
I'll let you know if I discover some kind of trick. I set up automated email to annoy the hell out of them until they take the quizzes. But, it they don't check their email, well, I'm not sure what to do.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 05:23:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 13, 2021, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
I'll let you know if I discover some kind of trick. I set up automated email to annoy the hell out of them until they take the quizzes. But, it they don't check their email, well, I'm not sure what to do.
Well did you TEXT them? /sarcasm
Quote from: kiana on January 14, 2021, 08:27:22 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 05:23:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 13, 2021, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
I'll let you know if I discover some kind of trick. I set up automated email to annoy the hell out of them until they take the quizzes. But, it they don't check their email, well, I'm not sure what to do.
Well did you TEXT them? /sarcasm
How about a short video on TikTok? Checking email is so old school.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 05:23:18 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 13, 2021, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2021, 07:25:45 AM
How can I get my students to read the damned directions?
Please please please PM me your solution when you find one! =p Nothing I've tried works very well.
I'll let you know if I discover some kind of trick. I set up automated email to annoy the hell out of them until they take the quizzes. But, it they don't check their email, well, I'm not sure what to do.
Students who claim to not know what's due are usually engaged in self delusion, I think. They don't know things are due because they are checked out or overwhelmed. Its a symptom of larger problems.
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
Quote from: Caracal on January 14, 2021, 08:38:20 AM
Students who claim to not know what's due are usually engaged in self delusion, I think. They don't know things are due because they are checked out or overwhelmed. Its a symptom of larger problems.
Huge difference between
didn't know and
couldn't know.
Quote from: mythbuster on January 14, 2021, 08:38:44 AM
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
Sounds like a good Jedi mind trick.
Quote from: mythbuster on January 14, 2021, 08:38:44 AM
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
I need to start doing that when we are back in person giving print exams. It's a real pain when they bubble in the wrong ID number, especially when the wrong number happens to belong to another student in the class.
Quote from: Biologist_ on January 15, 2021, 02:58:50 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on January 14, 2021, 08:38:44 AM
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
I need to start doing that when we are back in person giving print exams. It's a real pain when they bubble in the wrong ID number, especially when the wrong number happens to belong to another student in the class.
Or...are they trying to take that person's exam for them...?
M.
Quote from: mythbuster on January 14, 2021, 08:38:44 AM
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
My college physics professor had a policy that if you forgot to bubble your ID, the only way you could get credit for the quiz was to come to his office and identify your quiz. I forgot once. His office, it turned out, was inside a secure building on campus. If you walked in the front door, you were immediately greeted by a receptionist who asked your name and why you had entered the building. The receptionist then verified that my professor was, indeed, in his office, gave me specific directions on how to get there, and watched me to make sure I did not go elsewhere.
I left mildly curious about what was housed in the building besides my professor's office, but I did not forget my ID again.
Quote from: Chemystery on January 15, 2021, 08:23:24 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on January 14, 2021, 08:38:44 AM
The best luck I've had is making reading and following the directions worth points. For example students in My Intro Bio course get points for properly bubbling in their student ID on the exam scantron. I then make a big deal after the fact about the number of students who lost the totally free points! I report how many their were after each exam to the class. Not who they were, but just how many.
My college physics professor had a policy that if you forgot to bubble your ID, the only way you could get credit for the quiz was to come to his office and identify your quiz. I forgot once. His office, it turned out, was inside a secure building on campus. If you walked in the front door, you were immediately greeted by a receptionist who asked your name and why you had entered the building. The receptionist then verified that my professor was, indeed, in his office, gave me specific directions on how to get there, and watched me to make sure I did not go elsewhere.
I left mildly curious about what was housed in the building besides my professor's office, but I did not forget my ID again.
I had a colleague who would deduct points for incorrect or missing ID, only to have the same students miss points for it on every exam.
Quote from: mamselle on January 15, 2021, 04:05:41 PM
Quote from: Biologist_ on January 15, 2021, 02:58:50 PM
I need to start doing that when we are back in person giving print exams. It's a real pain when they bubble in the wrong ID number, especially when the wrong number happens to belong to another student in the class.
Or...are they trying to take that person's exam for them...?
M.
No. Just copying the wrong number from the list.
We have learned that we can't expect students to remember their 9-digit student IDs, so we provide a list of 3 digit exam IDs they can enter on their exams. In a large class, there are always a few students who enter the number incorrectly and there is usually at least one student who copies the wrong number from the list. The latter is worse because their score ends up counting for another student and then that student's exam doesn't get scored at all.
We also get a few on every exam who write the numbers in above the bubbles and then don't bubble them in. As much as I want to make each offending student come to my office and bubble in the number properly, that would be a hassle for me to schedule and it would delay the rest of my grading workflow so I just fill them in myself.
We do have assistance with grading in the large classes but some of these issues come to light after the handoff from the student assistant when I download the data.
If bubbling in the correct number counted for a couple of points, I wouldn't mind as much.
Quote from: Biologist_ on January 19, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
We have learned that we can't expect students to remember their 9-digit student IDs, so we provide a list of 3 digit exam IDs they can enter on their exams.
Really? Here they're expected to include it on pretty much
every assignment, paper, etc. in
every course, so by a few weeks into 1st year it should be burned into their brains.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 19, 2021, 11:56:02 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on January 19, 2021, 11:27:10 AM
We have learned that we can't expect students to remember their 9-digit student IDs, so we provide a list of 3 digit exam IDs they can enter on their exams.
Really? Here they're expected to include it on pretty much every assignment, paper, etc. in every course, so by a few weeks into 1st year it should be burned into their brains.
Really. I used the 9-digit student IDs for a few years but I always had a printed list for students to check when they turned in their exams. Only a few of them actually knew their student ID's. My sample included freshmen through seniors.
Our campus runs a lot of small classes and lab sections and not very many large lectures. Perhaps that explains the difference in ID usage for exams and assignments?
I gave up the Student Number ID for exams--saved a couple of minutes of fumbling in bags and wallets. Very little effort for me to pencil in 1, 2, 3, etc. And I put the same number on the Blue Books and exam, assembled the individual bundles, and ready to go. You might say, "You are wasting your precious time," but it saves some time for the student and should a name get forgotten on Scantron or Blue Book--the duplication was a fail safe in one or two cases a semester.
Well I guess I will keep answering your questions even though my answers are pretty much, yes that is what the instructions say, you understand correctly. I get it, it's a pandemic, you are a first year college student, but maybe let's have more confidence in your basic sentence comprehension skills and consider some better coping strategies for your (apparent) anxiety...
Students were required to upload a Word document for an assignment. Students were given a formatted Word template along with the directions for this assignment. The template was also included in this week's module.
Student A emailed a PDF attachment after the deadline complaining that Canvas wouldn't accept Stu's assignment. The directions are very clear about uploading a Word document and only a Word document. Course policy is very clear about submitting assignments (only on Canvas, in the assigned format, and by the deadline) and about emailed attachments (will not be opened or graded).
Email from Student B who failed to submit either of the two assignments for the week, which I will open/read only on Monday (I can guess the content as students who did not submit their assignments by Friday PM were given a score of zero with a comment that the assignment was not submitted.)
Students, you had all week to review the directions for the assignments and also complete them.
ETA: Subject line of Stu A's email: Submition
Head bang!
Very often though, students need only one warning/zero to understand the importance of reading directions and keeping track of deadlines. These are low-stakes assignments.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 23, 2021, 05:38:52 PM
Very often though, students need only one warning/zero to understand the importance of reading directions and keeping track of deadlines. These are low-stakes assignments.
This. Coupled with a firm "no" when the student asks to resubmit.
Colleague-induced rather than student-induced despair:
Today I had yet another international student pop in and tell me that the reason they and their friends like my courses is that I'm friendly to them. This is, like, at least the tenth time I've heard this. WTF is going on in all their other classes, that mine stand out in this way?!
(I don't think 'friendly' means 'easy' in this case, since my grade distributions are all normal. Then again, it may well be that elsewhere in the university the distributions are really skewed.)
International students often pick up, quite accurately, on instructors who demean them for various reasons. Some don't hide their "America first" attitudes, others have no patience with those who speak English as a second, third, or fifth language, others are only very thinly (or not at all) disguised racists.
I mean, you probably know this, but it sounds as if your students appreciate your open-minded, more generous spirit in this regard and want you to know they are grateful for it. I've seen struggling students in several different schools who never did as well as they might have, but were truly committed to learning for its own sake and for the values they could absorb in the situations in which they found themselves. I was glad to have them in class.
But I agree, it does make one wonder...
M.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 25, 2021, 10:59:05 AM
Colleague-induced rather than student-induced despair:
Today I had yet another international student pop in and tell me that the reason they and their friends like my courses is that I'm friendly to them. This is, like, at least the tenth time I've heard this. WTF is going on in all their other classes, that mine stand out in this way?!
(I don't think 'friendly' means 'easy' in this case, since my grade distributions are all normal. Then again, it may well be that elsewhere in the university the distributions are really skewed.)
I worked with a dude who literally wouldn't learn how to pronounce international students names. We're not talking about a "bless your heart, you tried" where your tongue simply won't make the sound, he wouldn't even try.
Quote from: mamselle on January 25, 2021, 11:29:26 AM
International students often pick up, quite accurately, on instructors who demean them for various reasons. Some don't hide their "America first" attitudes, others have no patience with those who speak English as a second, third, or fifth language, others are only very thinly (or not at all) disguised racists.
I mean, you probably know this, but it sounds as if your students appreciate your open-minded, more generous spirit in this regard and want you to know they are grateful for it. I've seen struggling students in several different schools who never did as well as they might have, but were truly committed to learning for its own sake and for the values they could absorb in the situations in which they found themselves. I was glad to have them in class.
But I agree, it does make one wonder...
M.
Yeah, that seems right to me. I've heard some... questionable... things said in faculty-wide meetings, so I'm not entirely surprised, but still. I guess I'm starting to suspect there might be a much bigger, more widespread problem.
I mean, I'm not in love with my job, but I can't imagine my experience would be improved by being palpably unfriendly in class and to my students, or by pretending I had a different student population. Surely it would be significantly worse! *shudder*
Quote from: kiana on January 25, 2021, 02:34:53 PM
I worked with a dude who literally wouldn't learn how to pronounce international students names. We're not talking about a "bless your heart, you tried" where your tongue simply won't make the sound, he wouldn't even try.
Ugh!
I've had a TON of plagiarists this quarter in labs. This wasn't a problem in face-to-face labs because students were given a hard copy of the worksheet and turned it in at the end of lab. It was really obvious if a student was looking at their phone & copying information.
Now that everything is online, I've have 8-10 cases every week. And it's really obvious stuff: answers to the previous versions of questions, answers that are copied & pasted from websites, answers that show another student's name on them.
Granted, with a class of more than 200, that means that most students are being honest. But I feel like I'm playing "whack a mole" with getting my materials removed from Chegg & CourseHero. And I'm spending way more time that I ever thought filing paperwork to deal with this.
Quote from: kiana on January 25, 2021, 02:34:53 PM
I worked with a dude who literally wouldn't learn how to pronounce international students names. We're not talking about a "bless your heart, you tried" where your tongue simply won't make the sound, he wouldn't even try.
Since I mostly do labs, I rarely have reason to refer to anyone by name, because I'm speaking to them face-to-face. So I have no idea how lots of names are pronounced, but it's pretty irrelevant. (And since students usually work with a partner, in many cases I don't know which student is which either.) If the later work for me as a TA, or take a small course with fewer students, then the situation will be different.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 26, 2021, 09:07:54 AMBut I feel like I'm playing "whack a mole" with getting my materials removed from Chegg & CourseHero. And I'm spending way more time that I ever thought filing paperwork to deal with this.
Yes, this pretty much sums up the experience of my colleagues who are teaching large lower-division classes, but even our large upper-division classes as well. It is incredibly soul draining.
I'm teaching my remote synchronous class as a flipped class and have been working hard to plan activities for it. One student needed a disability accommodation to be able to participate in real time in Zoom. Our accommodations office has been working hard to arrange that. Now, however, the student has made a last minute switch to a different section since he/she just wants to watch prerecorded lectures. Sigh...
Cheating is probably rampant in at least one of my classes, and there's basically nothing I can reasonably do about it. The various constraints I'm operating under all basically favor cheating.
On top of that, apathy is rampant in at least one of my classes - I officially have 50 students but some of my videos have been watched as few a 10 times, and I have only 20ish students showing up for our zoom sessions. Taking tests and quizes has much higher numbers but, well, see above.
I'm adding a copyright statement to everything this term since that's the mechanism for coursehero to take stuff down. Well, that's what they say...
Quote from: mleok on January 26, 2021, 12:37:00 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 26, 2021, 09:07:54 AMBut I feel like I'm playing "whack a mole" with getting my materials removed from Chegg & CourseHero. And I'm spending way more time that I ever thought filing paperwork to deal with this.
Yes, this pretty much sums up the experience of my colleagues who are teaching large lower-division classes, but even our large upper-division classes as well. It is incredibly soul draining.
Quote from: Stockmann on January 26, 2021, 04:06:06 PM
Cheating is probably rampant in at least one of my classes, and there's basically nothing I can reasonably do about it. The various constraints I'm operating under all basically favor cheating.
On top of that, apathy is rampant in at least one of my classes - I officially have 50 students but some of my videos have been watched as few a 10 times, and I have only 20ish students showing up for our zoom sessions. Taking tests and quizes has much higher numbers but, well, see above.
For some of my videos (especially the ones demonstrating how to do proofs) I have about 30 views across what is, at this point, three semesters and five sections. =p
I guess we don't have a thread for what students say in their online discussions. Maybe we should.
Student asks this question in a discussion which hadn't been going in this direction: Why would God "make the male g-spot in the prostate, inside the rectum"?
I'm not sure it will be helpful to unpack that one.
Quote from: teach_write_research on January 26, 2021, 06:10:45 PM
I'm adding a copyright statement to everything this term since that's the mechanism for coursehero to take stuff down. Well, that's what they say...
Quote from: mleok on January 26, 2021, 12:37:00 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 26, 2021, 09:07:54 AMBut I feel like I'm playing "whack a mole" with getting my materials removed from Chegg & CourseHero. And I'm spending way more time that I ever thought filing paperwork to deal with this.
Yes, this pretty much sums up the experience of my colleagues who are teaching large lower-division classes, but even our large upper-division classes as well. It is incredibly soul draining.
It works. I've added a copyright statement to everything I share with the students. And put in some boilerplate language in the syllabus that ALL course materials (readings, worksheets, quiz questions, etc.) are copyright protected.
CourseHero does remove the specific materials you request, but that doesn't stop someone else from posting it again. Same with Chegg.
Our conduct office says Chegg will run a usage report that gives the usernames & IP addresses of who posted questions & answers & when they did it. You just have to send them an official letter with the links to the material on their website.
Blackboard collaborate: invented by Satan?
Has anyone NOT had a nightmare using this for teaching?
Quote from: bacardiandlime on February 04, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Blackboard collaborate: invented by Satan?
Has anyone NOT had a nightmare using this for teaching?
Our school pushed using Blackboard collaborate hard for a few weeks last semester. Our folks in charge of distance education hosted several training meetings with it and not once did it go well at all. Since then I haven't heard any major push to use it...
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 05, 2021, 06:08:20 AM
Quote from: bacardiandlime on February 04, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Blackboard collaborate: invented by Satan?
Has anyone NOT had a nightmare using this for teaching?
Our school pushed using Blackboard collaborate hard for a few weeks last semester. Our folks in charge of distance education hosted several training meetings with it and not once did it go well at all. Since then I haven't heard any major push to use it...
Hah! I remember Blackboard Collaborate. Students were in one virtual classroom and I was in another. Instruction (and communication) was through emails during that class. That was the end of Blackboard Collaborate for me and the class that semester.
I'm banging my head as I just spent half an hour writing an email to two cheaters who submitted identical assignments. I had to painstakingly flag the numerous errors and typos. Both students write that "X decibels himself after leaving Y". I asked Stus to explain this sentence as well as the often hilarious other errors.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on February 04, 2021, 11:39:22 AM
Blackboard collaborate: invented by Satan?
Has anyone NOT had a nightmare using this for teaching?
We're using it, as it's integrated into the LMS, though we do have the option of using another system that is not integrated into the LMS. The Collaborate version we have is not good for group discussion, as you can only see about 4 people at a time, so I don't like it for my seminar class, but we're dealing with it. I find it cumbersome to use when switching back and forth to different files/media/applications. I teach basketweaving application lab & basketweaving stats, which have been complicated enough anyway to teach remotely. If all my classes were straight lecture with a powerpoint, Collaborate would be OK. So, it's not a nightmare, it's just not particularly user friendly. What's the nightmare on your end?
I just reported more than 20 students to the conduct board for potential academic dishonesty. They copied answers from a "study-help" website. It was really obvious too since they didn't even properly answer the question that was asked. Most of them are also re-taking the course.
Big Urban College adopted BlackBoard Collaborate for about two weeks into the pandemic.
After the utter miserableness of that lamentable platform, Big Urban College co-adopted the Zoom platform. Now, just about everybody except for the adjuncts use the Zoom platform. We got it linked into our BlackBoard LMS without much fuss too.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 05, 2021, 09:28:52 AM
I just reported more than 20 students to the conduct board for potential academic dishonesty. They copied answers from a "study-help" website. It was really obvious too since they didn't even properly answer the question that was asked. Most of them are also re-taking the course.
Yikes!
How do students get into Calculus-based Physics II if they can't take a damned derivative? Someone, please tell me.
Probably the same way they get into Comp 2 without being able to recognize a run-on sentence or a fragment.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 05, 2021, 01:16:21 PM
How do students get into Calculus-based Physics II if they can't take a damned derivative? Someone, please tell me.
Chegging calculus and calc-based physics 1 last fall?
I have a feeling we're going to see some catastrophic failure rates when we finally do go back to in-person tests, and unfortunately those are going to be people with about 3 semesters of cheating stacked up and therefore no real possibility of ever passing the course in question.
Quote from: kiana on February 05, 2021, 04:25:06 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 05, 2021, 01:16:21 PM
How do students get into Calculus-based Physics II if they can't take a damned derivative? Someone, please tell me.
Chegging calculus and calc-based physics 1 last fall?
I have a feeling we're going to see some catastrophic failure rates when we finally do go back to in-person tests, and unfortunately those are going to be people with about 3 semesters of cheating stacked up and therefore no real possibility of ever passing the course in question.
Last semester's trig-based physics 1 had a large-scale Chegg outbreak, and the academic integrity people let the students off easy, so they are in physics 2 (of which I am teaching a section) in spite of doing little of their own work in physics 1. We are normally having Zoom class, but we are insisting that they will come to campus for exams, reserving multiple classrooms to allow for plenty of distance. They are very aware of why we are insisting on this. I am sure it will be lots of fun, but so far there is only one student who seems to have learned absolutely nothing from the first semester (as in, W = mg was not a familiar concept).
Quote from: PScientist on February 05, 2021, 08:58:26 PM
Quote from: kiana on February 05, 2021, 04:25:06 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 05, 2021, 01:16:21 PM
How do students get into Calculus-based Physics II if they can't take a damned derivative? Someone, please tell me.
Chegging calculus and calc-based physics 1 last fall?
I have a feeling we're going to see some catastrophic failure rates when we finally do go back to in-person tests, and unfortunately those are going to be people with about 3 semesters of cheating stacked up and therefore no real possibility of ever passing the course in question.
Last semester's trig-based physics 1 had a large-scale Chegg outbreak, and the academic integrity people let the students off easy, so they are in physics 2 (of which I am teaching a section) in spite of doing little of their own work in physics 1. We are normally having Zoom class, but we are insisting that they will come to campus for exams, reserving multiple classrooms to allow for plenty of distance. They are very aware of why we are insisting on this. I am sure it will be lots of fun, but so far there is only one student who seems to have learned absolutely nothing from the first semester (as in, W = mg was not a familiar concept).
Daaang.
Tungsten = milligrams?
Not a familiar concept to me either.
weight= mass* gravity.
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 06, 2021, 11:06:54 AM
Tungsten = milligrams?
Not a familiar concept to me either.
Lol! Unfortunately, a lot of my students think that W = mg means to put the mass in milligrams.
I'm sure this has been posted before - TFW when you forget you have multiple tabs open in the LMS, score everything, and then notice that none of the scores registered.
UGH! The worst!
AR.
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 06, 2021, 11:06:54 AM
Tungsten = milligrams?
Not a familiar concept to me either.
When you're making a batch of steel, I'd think you'd want more than just milligrams of tungsten.
Face to face class. 85% of students show up.
Remainder send email: I can't find the Zoom link.
Well, Duh. There isn't one for a f2f class. AND the syllabus clearly specifies BBCollaborate for remote stuff (like Student Hours, or help sessions)
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2021, 09:11:09 AM
Face to face class. 85% of students show up.
Remainder send email: I can't find the Zoom link.
Well, Duh. There isn't one for a f2f class. AND the syllabus clearly specifies BBCollaborate for remote stuff (like Student Hours, or help sessions)
And this is one reason I'm not looking forward to Fall. I just really, really hope that the Department can make it really clear before students register whether a class is in-person ONLY or remote ONLY. No weird hybrid/flexible nonsense.
It was REALLY CLEAR.
Luckily, I just found out that we will be in-person, f2f in the fall with no Social Distancing.
If you'd like to be just like FishProfU. I am happy to share the formula.....
Somebody save me from yet another essay that opens "from the beginning of time, man has....." or "Webster's dictionary defines x as...."
Today I discovered that "religion means a belief in a superhuman being".
Quote from: bacardiandlime on February 09, 2021, 10:09:55 AM
Somebody save me from yet another essay that opens "from the beginning of time, man has....." or "Webster's dictionary defines x as...."
Quoting the dictionary that way annoys me to no end. And so many article and book writers do it!
QuoteToday I discovered that "religion means a belief in a superhuman being".
Okay...if your definition of religion insists on some sort of deity(s), that's not exactly wrong....
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 10:26:12 AM
Okay...if your definition of religion insists on some sort of deity(s), that's not exactly wrong....
Kinda misses faiths like Shinto which are animistic. Seems to assume a monotheistic worldview....
Or lotsa Marvel Universe folks...sometimes I don't think they get the difference between transcendent beings and superheroes...
M.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on February 09, 2021, 01:32:15 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 09, 2021, 10:26:12 AM
Okay...if your definition of religion insists on some sort of deity(s), that's not exactly wrong....
Kinda misses faiths like Shinto which are animistic. Seems to assume a monotheistic worldview....
Hence the "if" there.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 05, 2021, 06:28:06 AM
I'm banging my head as I just spent half an hour writing an email to two cheaters who submitted identical assignments. I had to painstakingly flag the numerous errors and typos. Both students write that "X decibels himself after leaving Y". I asked Stus to explain this sentence as well as the often hilarious other errors.
Update on cheaters who despite evidence to the contrary claim not to have cheated and want the assignment to be graded.
I should have reported both students for cheating (our institution comes down heavily on cheaters and plagiarists), but softie that I am, gave them the option of accepting the zero or letting the higher-ups decide whether or not their identical assignments would be considered to be cheating.
The head bang is for responding to the emails and giving both Stus another chance.
You have to find a place from which to like yourself for being firm with people when it's clear they've erred.
It's not about being proud to be mean or anything, it's just about keeping the world spinning as evenly as it can without wobbling.
Accountability (as we're now seeing in the Senate) is a hard lesson to learn late.
Much better they learn it early.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 09, 2021, 09:41:01 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2021, 09:11:09 AM
Face to face class. 85% of students show up.
Remainder send email: I can't find the Zoom link.
Well, Duh. There isn't one for a f2f class. AND the syllabus clearly specifies BBCollaborate for remote stuff (like Student Hours, or help sessions)
And this is one reason I'm not looking forward to Fall. I just really, really hope that the Department can make it really clear before students register whether a class is in-person ONLY or remote ONLY. No weird hybrid/flexible nonsense.
My school has a policy that any in-person component must have an online alternative. The intent, of course, was so that students who are in quarantine or students with health issues or other concerns that would otherwise not be able to take the course have an option. In actuality, our students have used this as a way to sign up for classes that would normally conflict with each other. We are planning to be back to "normal" in the fall. I'm afraid that this year's freshmen are going to have a hard time adjusting both to learning that they can only take one class in a given timeslot and that there will not automatically be an alternative option if they choose not to show up.
Trying to not bang my head on the wall...
Two students want to EMAIL me their lab reports. Of course, I said, 'Hell no!' in the nicest way possible. I don't want to deal with the CF of moving files, etc.
So, now I just got an email saying that the system isn't letting them submit another file. Don't know why. They have unlimited attempts and everything is saved. Everyone else in this lab section, except for the two of you figured it out.
Ugh!
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
You have to find a place from which to like yourself for being firm with people when it's clear they've erred.
It's not about being proud to be mean or anything, it's just about keeping the world spinning as evenly as it can without wobbling.
Accountability (as we're now seeing in the Senate) is a hard lesson to learn late.
Much better they learn it early.
M.
Both students let me know that they accepted the zeros and didn't want this to be bumped up. Reporting is rather time-consuming as I have to download the assignments and attach them along with a lengthy explanation. So all's well as the students seem to have learned their lesson.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 09, 2021, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
You have to find a place from which to like yourself for being firm with people when it's clear they've erred.
It's not about being proud to be mean or anything, it's just about keeping the world spinning as evenly as it can without wobbling.
Accountability (as we're now seeing in the Senate) is a hard lesson to learn late.
Much better they learn it early.
M.
Both students let me know that they accepted the zeros and didn't want this to be bumped up. Reporting is rather time-consuming as I have to download the assignments and attach them along with a lengthy explanation. So all's well as the students seem to have learned their lesson.
The students learned something. That sounds like a classroom victory!
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 09, 2021, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
You have to find a place from which to like yourself for being firm with people when it's clear they've erred.
It's not about being proud to be mean or anything, it's just about keeping the world spinning as evenly as it can without wobbling.
Accountability (as we're now seeing in the Senate) is a hard lesson to learn late.
Much better they learn it early.
M.
Both students let me know that they accepted the zeros and didn't want this to be bumped up. Reporting is rather time-consuming as I have to download the assignments and attach them along with a lengthy explanation. So all's well as the students seem to have learned their lesson.
At my school, said students could appeal the sanction you applied (awarding zeros) if the proper paperwork was not submitted to the office of student ethics within the appropriate time window. And, yes, students have done this successfully, even after appearing to accept the zeros at the time. So, while you may think that the students have learned their lesson, that remains to be seen.
Sorry to put a damper on your story, but it is almost always better to fill out the paperwork.
Quote from: arcturus on February 10, 2021, 07:58:33 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 09, 2021, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on February 09, 2021, 07:23:25 PM
You have to find a place from which to like yourself for being firm with people when it's clear they've erred.
It's not about being proud to be mean or anything, it's just about keeping the world spinning as evenly as it can without wobbling.
Accountability (as we're now seeing in the Senate) is a hard lesson to learn late.
Much better they learn it early.
M.
Both students let me know that they accepted the zeros and didn't want this to be bumped up. Reporting is rather time-consuming as I have to download the assignments and attach them along with a lengthy explanation. So all's well as the students seem to have learned their lesson.
At my school, said students could appeal the sanction you applied (awarding zeros) if the proper paperwork was not submitted to the office of student ethics within the appropriate time window. And, yes, students have done this successfully, even after appearing to accept the zeros at the time. So, while you may think that the students have learned their lesson, that remains to be seen.
Sorry to put a damper on your story, but it is almost always better to fill out the paperwork.
They wouldn't get very far given the institution's policies, the constant reminders in the course policies and modules, and the fact that the assignments are identical, including the numerous errors and typos.
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
If such calculus knowledge was not taught or assumed for the Physics I class, what is done to ensure that students entering the Physics II class have the requisite calc knowledge needed for success in the class? Are the physics professors expected to teach it?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's
algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I don't know about the situation in Canada, but in the U.S. it's not at all unusual for students to graduate high school without ever having taken anything other than elementary arithmetic. Innumeracy is an even greater problem here than illiteracy. This is no doubt a big part of what polly has in mind when she speaks of the disgraceful state of American K-12 education.
Quote from: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I don't know about the situation in Canada, but in the U.S. it's not at all unusual for students to graduate high school without ever having taken anything other than elementary arithmetic. Innumeracy is an even greater problem here than illiteracy. This is no doubt a big part of what polly has in mind when she speaks of the disgraceful state of American K-12 education.
That's horrible. Here (as far as I know in all provinces) students have to take math until about Grade 9 or so, which includes 2 or 3 years of algebra. Functions* and Trig are optional, but everyone (in principle) has completed algebra.
*Functions is typically required for certain STEM programs though.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 09:00:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I don't know about the situation in Canada, but in the U.S. it's not at all unusual for students to graduate high school without ever having taken anything other than elementary arithmetic. Innumeracy is an even greater problem here than illiteracy. This is no doubt a big part of what polly has in mind when she speaks of the disgraceful state of American K-12 education.
That's horrible. Here (as far as I know in all provinces) students have to take math until about Grade 9 or so, which includes 2 or 3 years of algebra. Functions* and Trig are optional, but everyone (in principle) has completed algebra.
*Functions is typically required for certain STEM programs though.
Personally, I think we need to start teaching Algebra in elementary school. Maybe start Calculus in middle school? There is too much emphasis on memorization and not enough on critical thinking.
Quote from: Aster on February 12, 2021, 07:06:58 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
They could always buy another copy of the book. It's cheaper than failing!
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 12, 2021, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 12, 2021, 07:06:58 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
They could always buy another copy of the book. It's cheaper than failing!
Aren't we supposed to provide 24-hour customer support?
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 12, 2021, 09:43:40 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 12, 2021, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 12, 2021, 07:06:58 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
They could always buy another copy of the book. It's cheaper than failing!
Aren't we supposed to provide 24-hour customer support?
Oh... so that's why a student recently asked me to send them a copy of the first five chapters in the required textbook.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 12, 2021, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 12, 2021, 07:06:58 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
They could always buy another copy of the book. It's cheaper than failing!
And one would think that if traveling to and from Europe is a possibility for this student, then buying another textbook would be financially feasible.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 09:00:39 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I don't know about the situation in Canada, but in the U.S. it's not at all unusual for students to graduate high school without ever having taken anything other than elementary arithmetic. Innumeracy is an even greater problem here than illiteracy. This is no doubt a big part of what polly has in mind when she speaks of the disgraceful state of American K-12 education.
That's horrible. Here (as far as I know in all provinces) students have to take math until about Grade 9 or so, which includes 2 or 3 years of algebra. Functions* and Trig are optional, but everyone (in principle) has completed algebra.
*Functions is typically required for certain STEM programs though.
Getting through algebra is supposed to be the norm here too. In practice, a lot of students never get past year after year of arithmetic and remedial arithmetic. We have millions of high school graduates who've never mastered the three Rs. MOST graduates nationwide aren't that dire, but the debasement of the high school diploma is so widespread as to throw doubt upon anybody who has only that to show on a resume. Speaking as an employer, all a high school diploma tells me for certain about a job candidate is that the candidate has a high school diploma.
This is part of the reason why any job position that requires a modicum of skill at reading and writing is likely to require a college degree. Which in turn helps to explain the idea that one "must" have a college diploma to get anything beyond entry-level work...which in turn explains why so many unprepared and unmotivated students are being pushed into college. College is the new high school for much of the American workforce.
Quote from: apl68 on February 12, 2021, 10:37:24 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 12, 2021, 09:40:49 AM
Quote from: Aster on February 12, 2021, 07:06:58 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I just arrived in Europe and I forgot my textbook. Can you send my a copy of the chapters that we are covering this week?"
Me: "Emergency replacement chapters are no longer available after the first two weeks of the term."
St Dent: "So am I just going to have to get a 0?"
Wow.
They could always buy another copy of the book. It's cheaper than failing!
And one would think that if traveling to and from Europe is a possibility for this student, then buying another textbook would be financially feasible.
Hmmmm . . .
Pre-COVID, I started having a minor problem with students going on cruises in the middle of the semester and saying they won't have internet access because it costs extra on a cruise. I finally put a blurb in the syllabus stating that I can't help people who don't plan for internet access during trips after having this conversation with a student (edited for brevity):
Stu: "So I won't have internet access for about two weeks. What should I do?"
Me: "Get two weeks ahead in the class. What else can you do?"
Stu: "I don't have time for that."
Me: "Why do you think you will have time to catch up on two-weeks of work
after the cruise?"
Stu: [
Grunt and eye-roll]
Me: [
Shoulder shrug] "I'm not sure what you want me to say . . ."
To their credit (I guess), the student pulled out a low C. I'm finding that parents are putting the squeeze on their community college kids with vacation plans--especially when the College's Spring/Fall Break dates don't match with those of the local high schools.
Sorry if I'm side-tracking here.
Teaching despair, but perhaps managed? second course with student who avoids all the work until they are clearly failing.
Dear Student, I will re-open the quiz for you. But, let's make a deal in your best interests. First you need to solve how to manage the assignments and deadlines.
There is a solution - sync your Canvas calendar feed to your Outlook calendar. You will also see that in your Teams calendar. Follow the instructions linked below. Take a photo or screen grab showing me that you have your Canvas calendar showing in your Outlook/Teams calendar. Message back with that photo attached. Then I will open the Quiz with us both having the reassurance that you will be on track for the rest of the term.
https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Student-Guide/How-do-I-subscribe-to-the-Calendar-feed-using-Outlook-as-a/ta-p/531
That belongs on the Jedi tricks thread!!
M.
This half belongs here and half in the Things you wish you say thread.
Dear students, you are all college seniors or graduate students. Therefore, you all sound really stupid when you get pentagon, pentagram, pentane, and pentahex (?!?) confused. If you don't knw the terms, just say it had 5 identical units. A much better approach than making up words.
I really wish I could mark off for this, but I know my institution and what's tolerated. So I won't. But it's frustrating.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I took Algebra in 9th grade and I'm sure there was a time when I learned how to do that, but I had certainly forgotten that by college and couldn't do it now. Of course, I wasn't taking optics courses, so there wasn't much need for me to remember. I can solve a simple equation for x, but after that, I've lost it all.
Quote from: Caracal on February 16, 2021, 11:26:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 12, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 11, 2021, 07:31:24 PM
Just got an email from a student in my Calculus-based Physics II course...
This is the first line:
"Please teach me how to do these integral things."
I'm guessing even Stu's algebra is nothing to write home about........
I once had to fail a student in an optics class becuase he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
I took Algebra in 9th grade and I'm sure there was a time when I learned how to do that, but I had certainly forgotten that by college and couldn't do it now. Of course, I wasn't taking optics courses, so there wasn't much need for me to remember. I can solve a simple equation for x, but after that, I've lost it all.
I'm genuinely concerned about how much I've forgotten from school. I've been trying to figure out ways to relearn some of it. I just discovered Khan Academy and spend some time each morning studying before I start my day.
Start tutoring inner-city kids on your off-hours, the basics come back quickly!
This is one non-profit student tutoring site:
https://www.evkids.org/our-impact/programs/tutoring.html
They list on-site tutoring but I'm pretty sure that right now they're doing it virtually.
If that's not directly of interest (it's a faith-based group), the founders are well-connected and can refer prospective tutors to other places.
Just an idea...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on February 16, 2021, 12:30:16 PM
Start tutoring inner-city kids on your off-hours, the basics come back quickly!
This is one non-profit student tutoring site:
https://www.evkids.org/our-impact/programs/tutoring.html
They list on-site tutoring but I'm pretty sure that right now they're doing it virtually.
If that's not directly of interest (it's a faith-based group), the founders are well-connected and can refer prospective tutors to other places.
Just an idea...
M.
This is a great idea! I hadn't thought about that. I've been wanting to become more involved in volunteer work and this sounds perfect. Thank you for suggesting it!
I worked for a Saturday program once, had great fun creating competitions between, for example, small triadic groups to graph y = mx + b equations, etc.
Three persons to a team, two or three teams spaced around the whiteboard, and they each took turns doing a) putting the equation into standard form; b) setting up a quick table to get the coordinates needed, and c) plotting the points and graphing the line (yardsticks provided).
...and I still remember how to graph those equations, at least....
;--}
M.
I added this to Jedi Mind tricks but the update shows that you shouldn't get your hopes up too high :-)
Dear Student met with me after class (virtually) and we uncovered that they were only using their phone and looks like you can only snag the calendar feed on a computer. Which *are* available on campus if Student doesn't want to deal with their old slow computer; Student is living on campus. They did not actually go and do that and I understand it's not simple - COVID protocols mean planning ahead, making an appt., and student is struggling with time management... as evidenced by the stack of incomplete small assignments and the missed quiz. The Student also didn't follow up with me until I asked them to meet after class. Sigh. I opened the quiz answers because I wasn't going to hold up everyone else. Next up - will I offer an all-essay makeup quiz or change the weight of the later quizzes or leave Dear Student to cope with the 0?
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 12, 2021, 12:28:54 PM
Teaching despair, but perhaps managed? second course with student who avoids all the work until they are clearly failing.
Dear Student, I will re-open the quiz for you. But, let's make a deal in your best interests. First you need to solve how to manage the assignments and deadlines.
There is a solution - sync your Canvas calendar feed to your Outlook calendar. You will also see that in your Teams calendar. Follow the instructions linked below. Take a photo or screen grab showing me that you have your Canvas calendar showing in your Outlook/Teams calendar. Message back with that photo attached. Then I will open the Quiz with us both having the reassurance that you will be on track for the rest of the term.
https://community.canvaslms.com/t5/Student-Guide/How-do-I-subscribe-to-the-Calendar-feed-using-Outlook-as-a/ta-p/531
I spent my entire summer of 2020, modifying all of my Fall 2020 courses , for effective online delivery. A lot of students b*tched, and said they learn better in-person, and want the college experience that they are paying for.
So, I agreed to teach both of my Spring 2021 courses as socially distanced, low-enrollment courses, putting my own health at risk. As the semester goes on, more and more students are requesting Zoom links, citing anything from actually having COVID-19, to being near someone who was diagnosed with COVID-19, to being generally sick, to cars not starting, to slipping on the ice and hurting their back so they can't come in-person, to some excuse tangentially related to COVID-19 . . . you get the idea. Halfway through February, the majority of the students in these in-person classes are voting with their feet and revealing that they really wanted online instruction.
From this flip-flop experience, I gather that my online classes in Fall 2020 were not easy enough for them, so they wanted to blame their general dumbness on the online delivery mode, but when time came to give them the in-person experience they were asking for, they revealed in their actions that they wanted Zoom so they could zone out.
QuoteI once had to fail a student in an optics class because he couldn't do algebra. (Specific example: the thin lens equation 1/i +1/o = 1/f for people unfamiliar with it.) How he got through high school I'll never know.
Well, if i = square root of minus one, and o = zero, I'd be really stumped, too. :-)
Quote from: lightning on February 16, 2021, 09:47:47 PM
From this flip-flop experience, I gather that my online classes in Fall 2020 were not easy enough for them, so they wanted to blame their general dumbness on the online delivery mode, but when time came to give them the in-person experience they were asking for, they revealed in their actions that they wanted Zoom so they could zone out.
Sadly I suspect administrators will start catering to this type of student demand mid-semester in the future. Call it "CryptoFlex."
Quote from: Zeus Bird on February 17, 2021, 05:43:39 AM
Quote from: lightning on February 16, 2021, 09:47:47 PM
From this flip-flop experience, I gather that my online classes in Fall 2020 were not easy enough for them, so they wanted to blame their general dumbness on the online delivery mode, but when time came to give them the in-person experience they were asking for, they revealed in their actions that they wanted Zoom so they could zone out.
Sadly I suspect administrators will start catering to this type of student demand mid-semester in the future. Call it "CryptoFlex."
In my case, administration at the departmental and college level have had my back. My situation is similar to Lightning; Fall '20 I had gen-ed courses that were synchronous online, and I had one (honors) course in which 10 students met in person one day, and the other 10 zoomed in. By the midterm, 4 of the 20 had started attending every day (there was space in the classroom), and maybe 6 or 7 only attended via zoom. Students were allowed an online-only option for health or other reasons. ALL the students who chose zoom-only scored 75 or lower on the final (take home) exam.
The department saw many such grade distributions across the board, and as the university pushed for more in-person courses, the department leadership told us "If you don't want to use a zoom component, don't. There are online sections for students who want to choose that. Maintain social distancing in classrooms, but you are free to organize your courses to eliminate a zoom component." That means as the struggling students start to request online-only access, I'm allowed to tell them "this class is not set up for zoom, and we covered this extensively on the syllabus and before the drop window closed." So far there's been no pushback from above.
Quote from: lightning on February 16, 2021, 09:47:47 PM
I spent my entire summer of 2020, modifying all of my Fall 2020 courses , for effective online delivery. A lot of students b*tched, and said they learn better in-person, and want the college experience that they are paying for.
So, I agreed to teach both of my Spring 2021 courses as socially distanced, low-enrollment courses, putting my own health at risk. As the semester goes on, more and more students are requesting Zoom links, citing anything from actually having COVID-19, to being near someone who was diagnosed with COVID-19, to being generally sick, to cars not starting, to slipping on the ice and hurting their back so they can't come in-person, to some excuse tangentially related to COVID-19 . . . you get the idea. Halfway through February, the majority of the students in these in-person classes are voting with their feet and revealing that they really wanted online instruction.
From this flip-flop experience, I gather that my online classes in Fall 2020 were not easy enough for them, so they wanted to blame their general dumbness on the online delivery mode, but when time came to give them the in-person experience they were asking for, they revealed in their actions that they wanted Zoom so they could zone out.
Sounds like they really wanted in-person classes, all right, and then dropped them when they found that they couldn't make them work out like they'd hoped. The end result is the same, I guess.
I have a very anxious student, who is driving me batshit crazy. I'm not one to judge, since I am very familiar with the burdens that anxiety brings (maybe stu's anxiety is resonating with mine?). But this kid is driving me nuts! I met with stu for 45 minutes this morning over the computer. Stu emailed me an hour later (TWICE) because stu forgot what we discussed about the lab. I mean, I get the anxiety, but DAMN, I need a break. This student wants to talk for an hour (at least) every week and I've obliged since it's during my office hours (sometimes not). Maybe I need to cut the time short, but I don't want to be an asshole about it. I thought stu was getting it because stu would cut time at 30 minutes and make statements about taking too long.
I can't dump it all on stu. Life has been stressful, but I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.
Have Stu email you a list of questions in advance. Then you can run them down quickly. Then have Stu repeat back what you just told them, or have them show you their notes. Hold up the paper to the web cam or the like. Force Stu be be more organized and not just camp out in your virtual office.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 17, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
I have a very anxious student, who is driving me batshit crazy. I'm not one to judge, since I am very familiar with the burdens that anxiety brings (maybe stu's anxiety is resonating with mine?). But this kid is driving me nuts! I met with stu for 45 minutes this morning over the computer. Stu emailed me an hour later (TWICE) because stu forgot what we discussed about the lab. I mean, I get the anxiety, but DAMN, I need a break. This student wants to talk for an hour (at least) every week and I've obliged since it's during my office hours (sometimes not). Maybe I need to cut the time short, but I don't want to be an asshole about it. I thought stu was getting it because stu would cut time at 30 minutes and make statements about taking too long.
I can't dump it all on stu. Life has been stressful, but I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.
I had a version of this in January. I was tearing my hair out. I vented and took deep breaths and reminded myself to be kind and also respect my own limits. My replies usually included some sort of general reassurance. I realized the other day the student has not been obsessively messaging me. I don't think it was anything I did, so consider that. You don't have to fix it, you just need to manage expectations and your own peace of mind. My current torture is a student who can't find the new assignment on Canvas but doesn't stay on the chat long enough to actually troubleshoot and solve the problem. "That doesn't work".
Quote from: mythbuster on February 17, 2021, 01:32:04 PM
Have Stu email you a list of questions in advance. Then you can run them down quickly. Then have Stu repeat back what you just told them, or have them show you their notes. Hold up the paper to the web cam or the like. Force Stu be be more organized and not just camp out in your virtual office.
Right. I think the problem is the going off on tangents. Stu is a good student, shows notes, etc. We share screens and I doodle notes about problems. Stu has A LOT of questions. I've had to put off answering the emails until the next day (since we have the 24 hr. rule).
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 17, 2021, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 17, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
I have a very anxious student, who is driving me batshit crazy. I'm not one to judge, since I am very familiar with the burdens that anxiety brings (maybe stu's anxiety is resonating with mine?). But this kid is driving me nuts! I met with stu for 45 minutes this morning over the computer. Stu emailed me an hour later (TWICE) because stu forgot what we discussed about the lab. I mean, I get the anxiety, but DAMN, I need a break. This student wants to talk for an hour (at least) every week and I've obliged since it's during my office hours (sometimes not). Maybe I need to cut the time short, but I don't want to be an asshole about it. I thought stu was getting it because stu would cut time at 30 minutes and make statements about taking too long.
I can't dump it all on stu. Life has been stressful, but I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.
I had a version of this in January. I was tearing my hair out. I vented and took deep breaths and reminded myself to be kind and also respect my own limits. My replies usually included some sort of general reassurance. I realized the other day the student has not been obsessively messaging me. I don't think it was anything I did, so consider that. You don't have to fix it, you just need to manage expectations and your own peace of mind. My current torture is a student who can't find the new assignment on Canvas but doesn't stay on the chat long enough to actually troubleshoot and solve the problem. "That doesn't work".
I hear ya! I suppose I'm in an odd place now with other stressors. I just need to handle what I can and leave the rest to the student. I can't change the student's behavior, but I can change how and
when I respond to it.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 17, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
I have a very anxious student, who is driving me batshit crazy. I'm not one to judge, since I am very familiar with the burdens that anxiety brings (maybe stu's anxiety is resonating with mine?). But this kid is driving me nuts! I met with stu for 45 minutes this morning over the computer. Stu emailed me an hour later (TWICE) because stu forgot what we discussed about the lab. I mean, I get the anxiety, but DAMN, I need a break. This student wants to talk for an hour (at least) every week and I've obliged since it's during my office hours (sometimes not). Maybe I need to cut the time short, but I don't want to be an asshole about it. I thought stu was getting it because stu would cut time at 30 minutes and make statements about taking too long.
I can't dump it all on stu. Life has been stressful, but I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.
Do you have a Tutoring or Study Help center on your campus? If the student is that disorganized/distracted/stressed, they need some help that is beyond your training. Maybe the counseling center would help too?
I get it. Anxiety sucks. But if it takes up that much brain space and time for just ONE class, the student is going to have a really rough time.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 17, 2021, 02:40:19 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 17, 2021, 01:10:18 PM
I have a very anxious student, who is driving me batshit crazy. I'm not one to judge, since I am very familiar with the burdens that anxiety brings (maybe stu's anxiety is resonating with mine?). But this kid is driving me nuts! I met with stu for 45 minutes this morning over the computer. Stu emailed me an hour later (TWICE) because stu forgot what we discussed about the lab. I mean, I get the anxiety, but DAMN, I need a break. This student wants to talk for an hour (at least) every week and I've obliged since it's during my office hours (sometimes not). Maybe I need to cut the time short, but I don't want to be an asshole about it. I thought stu was getting it because stu would cut time at 30 minutes and make statements about taking too long.
I can't dump it all on stu. Life has been stressful, but I'm sure everyone here can attest to that.
Do you have a Tutoring or Study Help center on your campus? If the student is that disorganized/distracted/stressed, they need some help that is beyond your training. Maybe the counseling center would help too?
I get it. Anxiety sucks. But if it takes up that much brain space and time for just ONE class, the student is going to have a really rough time.
We do. I advertise for the Tutoring Center (all online now) and I also have TAs in both of my sections who have review hours online. Stu already attends.
Stu Dent: "Professor, can you make a PowerPoint presentation for us to use for studying? It's hard for me to figure out out a lot of this stuff in the book. Can you like, make a presentation for us to use that has pictures with labels?"
This student is currently asking about her laboratory course.
I have a few students who have stopped attending lab, haven't turned in an assignment for the last few weeks, but are still registered. One of them emailed to ask if they could get half credit for their missed assignments so they "won't fail".
Even if I did allow that (which I won't), half credit. is. still. failing.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
I have a few students who have stopped attending lab, haven't turned in an assignment for the last few weeks, but are still registered. One of them emailed to ask if they could get half credit for their missed assignments so they "won't fail".
Even if I did allow that (which I won't), half credit. is. still. failing.
But they will if the ace the final!!!!
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 18, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
I have a few students who have stopped attending lab, haven't turned in an assignment for the last few weeks, but are still registered. One of them emailed to ask if they could get half credit for their missed assignments so they "won't fail".
Even if I did allow that (which I won't), half credit. is. still. failing.
But they will if the ace the final!!!!
Not mathematically possible. And given their current performance, it's also highly improbable.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:53:06 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 18, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
I have a few students who have stopped attending lab, haven't turned in an assignment for the last few weeks, but are still registered. One of them emailed to ask if they could get half credit for their missed assignments so they "won't fail".
Even if I did allow that (which I won't), half credit. is. still. failing.
But they will if the ace the final!!!!
Not mathematically possible. And given their current performance, it's also highly improbable.
Well, you've already established that math isn't going to get in the way of
wishful thinking optimism.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 18, 2021, 11:08:14 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:53:06 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 18, 2021, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 18, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
I have a few students who have stopped attending lab, haven't turned in an assignment for the last few weeks, but are still registered. One of them emailed to ask if they could get half credit for their missed assignments so they "won't fail".
Even if I did allow that (which I won't), half credit. is. still. failing.
But they will if the ace the final!!!!
Not mathematically possible. And given their current performance, it's also highly improbable.
Well, you've already established that math isn't going to get in the way of wishful thinking optimism.
Indeed! Looks like I'll being seeing the student again for Spring term.
I'm having the hardest time getting my students to practice scanning some papers to a multipage pdf. They will need to do this tomorrow for an exam. I made a "practice exam" that involves doing this and have been nagging them about it all week. 25% of them still haven't done it successfully. One student just submitted a second try with exactly the same problem I pointed out on his first try. Do they want to fail the real exam because they can't figure out how to upload their work while the timer is counting down?
The really annoying thing is they probably think I'm a jerk for nagging them rather than realizing I'm being nice because I want them to be successful.
Quote from: Liquidambar on February 18, 2021, 06:02:27 PM
I'm having the hardest time getting my students to practice scanning some papers to a multipage pdf. They will need to do this tomorrow for an exam. I made a "practice exam" that involves doing this and have been nagging them about it all week. 25% of them still haven't done it successfully. One student just submitted a second try with exactly the same problem I pointed out on his first try. Do they want to fail the real exam because they can't figure out how to upload their work while the timer is counting down?
The really annoying thing is they probably think I'm a jerk for nagging them rather than realizing I'm being nice because I want them to be successful.
I am apparently the only one in my small department requiring students to scan documents and merge multiple pages to a single PDF. I talked about it in the first day of class. I gave them a "quiz" requiring them to scan a multi-page document together (easy points here!). Some students scanned & uploaded the quiz as multiple separate pages and wrote that they did not know how to merge. In the next synchronous class, I threw the question to the students and had them tell each other how to do it (yay! multiple ideas came in the chat and students raised their hands to add others). One student even offered to be a tech consultant to their classmates to show them how (small advanced class). Everyone managed to scan the next assignment as a single PDF! Success!
I realize my comment helps you not in the slightest as your exam is tomorrow. I hope your students manage to scan their exams and not fail for a stupid reason.
Thanks, OneMoreYear. If I ever have to do this remote teaching stuff again (which I really hope to avoid!), I should follow your lead and have them talk to each other about it in a synchronous class. Your class sounds like a good group.
I should note that my other class, which seems to be much stronger, managed to figure out scanning without my nagging them incessantly.
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 19, 2021, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Yes we do. The thing is, this student is doing well in the course! So, it's not that stu isn't 'getting it.' Stu is just very, very anxious (my opinion).
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 19, 2021, 06:31:19 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 19, 2021, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Yes we do. The thing is, this student is doing well in the course! So, it's not that stu isn't 'getting it.' Stu is just very, very anxious (my opinion).
Are you required to respond to multiple emails from a student on a daily basis? Perhaps tell the student to write down the questions in a notebook and email you at the end of the day? Could some of these questions be posted on the Discussion Board?
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 19, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 19, 2021, 06:31:19 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 19, 2021, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Yes we do. The thing is, this student is doing well in the course! So, it's not that stu isn't 'getting it.' Stu is just very, very anxious (my opinion).
Are you required to respond to multiple emails from a student on a daily basis? Perhaps tell the student to write down the questions in a notebook and email you at the end of the day? Could some of these questions be posted on the Discussion Board?
The admin rule about email is to respond within 24 hours. I'll try to talk to stu and mention that I do receive a large volume of email, so compiling a list would be a good idea. I know I was venting earlier, it has been a long, long week.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 19, 2021, 06:42:33 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 19, 2021, 06:31:19 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 19, 2021, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Yes we do. The thing is, this student is doing well in the course! So, it's not that stu isn't 'getting it.' Stu is just very, very anxious (my opinion).
Are you required to respond to multiple emails from a student on a daily basis? Perhaps tell the student to write down the questions in a notebook and email you at the end of the day? Could some of these questions be posted on the Discussion Board?
I once had great success with this with a student who would email me a question, then a few minutes later often email again to say never mind she figured it out. It seemed like just writing it down helped her focus and figure it out. I asked her to write down her question, then spend 10 min. trying to figure out out herself, and then if she still couldn't figure it out she could email me-- volume went way down.
Make it a quiz worth points to do this.
[/quote]
...I know I was venting earlier, it has been a long, long week.
[/quote]
So much truth. Too many emails from a student doing well in the course = do something to take care of yourself. Venting here is welcome. Waiting until Monday to reply to the student seems reasonable.
If you can muster the energy send in the early warning message - even though the student is fine academically it's a potential mental health flag. The advisor folks can put it in context and follow-up as needed. I have a definite uptick in accommodations that are likely anxiety/depression related.
Quote from: Caracal on February 16, 2021, 11:26:54 AM
I took Algebra in 9th grade and I'm sure there was a time when I learned how to do that, but I had certainly forgotten that by college and couldn't do it now. Of course, I wasn't taking optics courses, so there wasn't much need for me to remember. I can solve a simple equation for x, but after that, I've lost it all.
I keep finding small, niche everyday math situations where I don't remember how to perform the exact operation required, but I have enough of a weird patchwork knowledge left that I can reason out a more complicated way to the right answer. It feels really weird when it happens.
One of the things I most look forward to about hatching an egg is having to re-learn all that basic math. Maybe it'll stick the second time around.
Quote from: teach_write_research on February 20, 2021, 10:36:36 AM
...I know I was venting earlier, it has been a long, long week.
[/quote]
So much truth. Too many emails from a student doing well in the course = do something to take care of yourself. Venting here is welcome. Waiting until Monday to reply to the student seems reasonable.
If you can muster the energy send in the early warning message - even though the student is fine academically it's a potential mental health flag. The advisor folks can put it in context and follow-up as needed. I have a definite uptick in accommodations that are likely anxiety/depression related.
[/quote]
Early warning would be a good idea especially if the student is emailing all the professors. It also puts the student on notice that multiple emails on any given day are too many and might make the student come across as unprofessional.
My headbanging: I invariably get emails from students when I'm grading as they can see my comments. I was dreading grading today until I got around my "visibility" on Canvas by selecting the "hide grades" features. I now have my magic cloak of invisibility and can grade in peace.
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 19, 2021, 06:31:19 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 19, 2021, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 18, 2021, 08:44:30 PM
My anxious student has been emailing me all day today. I answered twice, then gave up since I had a stack of things to do.
Do you have an early alert for student success system (or some similar title) at your place (ours is run through the retention office)? We can sent the alert for students who are struggling (it's required if they are not attending, but can be sent for other concerns) and someone from student success and the student's advisor are looped in to the concern so they can provide assistance. The faculty member does not always get a lot of feedback about it, but at least the student is on the radar of people who can help.
Yes we do. The thing is, this student is doing well in the course! So, it's not that stu isn't 'getting it.' Stu is just very, very anxious (my opinion).
You should ask stu how many times a day hu calls or texts hu's mother. My guess is double digits.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
[. . .]
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
When grading in Canvas, I've been frequently pasting the pre-written comment of "See the rubric and assignment directions." No other comment.
Quote from: spork on February 21, 2021, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
[. . .]
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
When grading in Canvas, I've been frequently pasting the pre-written comment of "See the rubric and assignment directions." No other comment.
This is a good idea. I try to personalize comments, but it is so time-consuming.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 21, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: spork on February 21, 2021, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
[. . .]
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
When grading in Canvas, I've been frequently pasting the pre-written comment of "See the rubric and assignment directions." No other comment.
This is a good idea. I try to personalize comments, but it is so time-consuming.
I'm told that I must provide detailed, personal feedback to each student's assignment. But that means I'm essentially just quoting the assignment instructions. So frustrating to have to spend so much time on it.
Maybe you do this already, Charlotte, but I create a new document for each assignment or type of assignment and copy and paste my feedback into it, adding new responses as needed. For major work, I try to give every student 3 pieces of feedback. My school also likes personalized feedback, so a response might say: "Stu, this essay has many sentence fragments, such as the sentence that says [QUOTATION]. This is a fragment because it does not have a verb. In future, make sure every sentence has a subject and a verb. If you would like to review this, there are some practice questions on pages 508-515 in the textbook."
Then when I find another essay with major sentence fragments, I copy this example, paste the new student's example into it, and maybe add or update the "how to fix" sentence. For assignment directions, you can have a sentence for each assignment direction that is commonly skipped, paste an example from the student's work, and add a sentence (reproduce for each student) suggesting that they read the directions more carefully on the next assignment.
AR.
We are past halfway done with Winter quarter. The "What is my grade?/Can I pass?" emails are starting to come in.
Some are from students where it is not mathematically possible for them to earn a passing grade.
Some are from students who can earn a passing grade, but they will have to do a bit better on the final than the first exams.
And one was from a panicking student* who is earning a B+ and was wondering if they were failing. They were all ready to fill out the paperwork to drop, but thankfully their advisor said to check their current grade first.
Students, learn to calculate a weighted average! A low score on one quiz that is worth 5% of your grade does not equal automatic failure! You could fail two or three of them and still pass the class. However, failing all of the midterm exams does make it rather likely you will fail the class.
Quote from: Charlotte on February 21, 2021, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 21, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: spork on February 21, 2021, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
[. . .]
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
When grading in Canvas, I've been frequently pasting the pre-written comment of "See the rubric and assignment directions." No other comment.
This is a good idea. I try to personalize comments, but it is so time-consuming.
I'm told that I must provide detailed, personal feedback to each student's assignment. But that means I'm essentially just quoting the assignment instructions. So frustrating to have to spend so much time on it.
I usually provide detailed comments for writing-intensive assignments. This semester though I have several students in this course who cannot even put together a sentence, don't know the difference between nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc, and are unfamiliar with what one would consider basic vocabulary, and who think that reading the directions or even the examples included in the directions are unimportant.
We are also expected to provide detailed feedback. I don't mind writing the comments as students usually read them and try to incorporate the feedback in subsequent assignments. This semester though, there must be something in the air or the water because I've never encountered such a large number of unprepared students in a single class.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 22, 2021, 12:09:39 PM
Quote from: Charlotte on February 21, 2021, 02:29:21 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 21, 2021, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: spork on February 21, 2021, 12:24:17 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 20, 2021, 11:35:05 AM
[. . .]
The headbanging is for the quality of the submissions and the students' unfamiliarity with the detailed directions for the assignments. Read the directions, Stus, don't just scroll through them without stopping to make sure you know what is expected of you.
When grading in Canvas, I've been frequently pasting the pre-written comment of "See the rubric and assignment directions." No other comment.
This is a good idea. I try to personalize comments, but it is so time-consuming.
I'm told that I must provide detailed, personal feedback to each student's assignment. But that means I'm essentially just quoting the assignment instructions. So frustrating to have to spend so much time on it.
I usually provide detailed comments for writing-intensive assignments. This semester though I have several students in this course who cannot even put together a sentence, don't know the difference between nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc, and are unfamiliar with what one would consider basic vocabulary, and who think that reading the directions or even the examples included in the directions are unimportant.
We are also expected to provide detailed feedback. I don't mind writing the comments as students usually read them and try to incorporate the feedback in subsequent assignments. This semester though, there must be something in the air or the water because I've never encountered such a large number of unprepared students in a single class.
Many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I started teaching, the feedback I gave one particularly egregious assignment was as follows: "You should sue your high school English department for malpractice."
I've gotten better at providing feedback and I find I can type comments into online assignments in Blackboard faster than I can write them on hard copy assignments. But some work is so fracked up that all the comments in the world won't help.
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 22, 2021, 01:01:00 PM
Many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I started teaching, the feedback I gave one particularly egregious assignment was as follows: "You should sue your high school English department for malpractice."
Ouch! But I know what you mean. There was a time or two when I was TAing in history when I felt like telling students to do that to our institution's own English department.
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 22, 2021, 01:01:00 PM
Many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I started teaching, the feedback I gave one particularly egregious assignment was as follows: "You should sue your high school English department for malpractice."
Ouch! But I know what you mean. There was a time or two when I was TAing in history when I felt like telling students to do that to our institution's own English department.
I recently told two students that their first project was not college level work. Sometimes if a student completely blows it there just isn't a nice way to let them know. Heck, I would feel worse if someone didn't let them know. I usually only resort to that when I see a lack of effort coupled with the lack of skill.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 22, 2021, 10:20:34 AM
We are past halfway done with Winter quarter. The "What is my grade?/Can I pass?" emails are starting to come in.
Some are from students where it is not mathematically possible for them to earn a passing grade.
Some are from students who can earn a passing grade, but they will have to do a bit better on the final than the first exams.
And one was from a panicking student* who is earning a B+ and was wondering if they were failing. They were all ready to fill out the paperwork to drop, but thankfully their advisor said to check their current grade first.
Students, learn to calculate a weighted average! A low score on one quiz that is worth 5% of your grade does not equal automatic failure! You could fail two or three of them and still pass the class. However, failing all of the midterm exams does make it rather likely you will fail the class.
I usually add a grade item for "overall course grade so far" or something like that. Then I update it each time I upload grades for other items. I always hope that it will help to keep students from fixating on their low exam grades and realize how much the higher grades from homework and lab assignments help their average. It can be hard to get a good estimate when two thirds of the grades in one category have come in and only a third of the grades in another category have come in and the grades tend to be much higher one category than the other.
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 22, 2021, 09:06:46 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 22, 2021, 10:20:34 AM
We are past halfway done with Winter quarter. The "What is my grade?/Can I pass?" emails are starting to come in.
Some are from students where it is not mathematically possible for them to earn a passing grade.
Some are from students who can earn a passing grade, but they will have to do a bit better on the final than the first exams.
And one was from a panicking student* who is earning a B+ and was wondering if they were failing. They were all ready to fill out the paperwork to drop, but thankfully their advisor said to check their current grade first.
Students, learn to calculate a weighted average! A low score on one quiz that is worth 5% of your grade does not equal automatic failure! You could fail two or three of them and still pass the class. However, failing all of the midterm exams does make it rather likely you will fail the class.
I usually add a grade item for "overall course grade so far" or something like that. Then I update it each time I upload grades for other items. I always hope that it will help to keep students from fixating on their low exam grades and realize how much the higher grades from homework and lab assignments help their average. It can be hard to get a good estimate when two thirds of the grades in one category have come in and only a third of the grades in another category have come in and the grades tend to be much higher one category than the other.
These students had to pass college algebra to take this class. They should be able to calculate a weighted average without hand holding.
Panicky student probably thinks that a B is "failing" based on her behavior at office hours.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 23, 2021, 08:31:32 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 22, 2021, 09:06:46 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 22, 2021, 10:20:34 AM
We are past halfway done with Winter quarter. The "What is my grade?/Can I pass?" emails are starting to come in.
Some are from students where it is not mathematically possible for them to earn a passing grade.
Some are from students who can earn a passing grade, but they will have to do a bit better on the final than the first exams.
And one was from a panicking student* who is earning a B+ and was wondering if they were failing. They were all ready to fill out the paperwork to drop, but thankfully their advisor said to check their current grade first.
Students, learn to calculate a weighted average! A low score on one quiz that is worth 5% of your grade does not equal automatic failure! You could fail two or three of them and still pass the class. However, failing all of the midterm exams does make it rather likely you will fail the class.
I usually add a grade item for "overall course grade so far" or something like that. Then I update it each time I upload grades for other items. I always hope that it will help to keep students from fixating on their low exam grades and realize how much the higher grades from homework and lab assignments help their average. It can be hard to get a good estimate when two thirds of the grades in one category have come in and only a third of the grades in another category have come in and the grades tend to be much higher one category than the other.
These students had to pass college algebra to take this class. They should be able to calculate a weighted average without hand holding.
Panicky student probably thinks that a B is "failing" based on her behavior at office hours.
I've had dozens of these students. A B+ is "failing" and now they will never get into med school and will end up living under a bridge. I estimate I succeed about 1/3 of the time in calming them down. I make a lot of referrals to the counseling center.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on February 22, 2021, 02:10:33 PM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2021, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on February 22, 2021, 01:01:00 PM
Many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I started teaching, the feedback I gave one particularly egregious assignment was as follows: "You should sue your high school English department for malpractice."
Ouch! But I know what you mean. There was a time or two when I was TAing in history when I felt like telling students to do that to our institution's own English department.
I recently told two students that their first project was not college level work. Sometimes if a student completely blows it there just isn't a nice way to let them know. Heck, I would feel worse if someone didn't let them know. I usually only resort to that when I see a lack of effort coupled with the lack of skill.
I sent a polite version of this to a student today, with suggestions on what to do to about the lack of skills. Effort was evident, but misplaced.
A student who asked me about integrals upthread left me a cute note in stu's hw.
"Pls teach me how to do these. Email me!!!"
I have already had contact with the student and asked to get more info and got a response, but about something unrelated.
WWTFD?
Edit: I forgot to mention that the first sentence was underlined heavily (at least 3 times).
Double post.
The same student who cannot do integrals just sent me a lengthy email telling me that I do not provide resources for the course, except for one "lecture slide with really complex integration." So, apparently, I have just one lecture slide up for this section.
I was also told that I should have weekly meetings. I cannot do this since the course is asynchronous and our department basically forbid us from doing anything else.
Stu admits that stu doesn't read the slides, on some weeks, and just goes to Utube. Hmm.
Stu also knows that the entire class is in the same boat. Hmm.
I'm pretty pissed at this student. Why? Stu's been putting the blame on me this entire semester. Stu turns in EIGHT files when the limit was two for an assignment (but I accepted them with a warning). Stu wants me to email stu, reach out to stu and I guess hold stu's hand through the course. I have emailed stu, but stu doesn't email me back in a timely manner or answer the questions I've asked.
This kid doesn't help with my stress levels and when I thought I wouldn't need surgery, now I may have to have it. I guess that's what I'll do over Spring Break if I can schedule it.
Any advice on how to deal with this stu would be appreciated. Currently, I plan to email stu back tomorrow, during working hours since stu emailed me at 10:45pm, and make a list answering each question.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 23, 2021, 08:34:13 PM
Double post.
The same student who cannot do integrals just sent me a lengthy email telling me that I do not provide resources for the course, except for one "lecture slide with really complex integration." So, apparently, I have just one lecture slide up for this section.
I was also told that I should have weekly meetings. I cannot do this since the course is asynchronous and our department basically forbid us from doing anything else.
Stu admits that stu doesn't read the slides, on some weeks, and just goes to Utube. Hmm.
Stu also knows that the entire class is in the same boat. Hmm.
I'm pretty pissed at this student. Why? Stu's been putting the blame on me this entire semester. Stu turns in EIGHT files when the limit was two for an assignment (but I accepted them with a warning). Stu wants me to email stu, reach out to stu and I guess hold stu's hand through the course. I have emailed stu, but stu doesn't email me back in a timely manner or answer the questions I've asked.
This kid doesn't help with my stress levels and when I thought I wouldn't need surgery, now I may have to have it. I guess that's what I'll do over Spring Break if I can schedule it.
Any advice on how to deal with this stu would be appreciated. Currently, I plan to email stu back tomorrow, during working hours since stu emailed me at 10:45pm, and make a list answering each question.
I would send a terse email reminding Stu that Stu is required to read the slides and all course-related materials. Perhaps suggest a workbook so that Stu can catch up on the proficiency levels for your course? Stu absolutely needs to respond to your questions. In your email tomorrow I would remind Stu that you are waiting for Stu's responses and that the class is not taught through emails (I once had to send a similar email). I would also submit a midsemester appraisal right away; otherwise, email Stu with a list of things Stu should be doing in your course. Under no circumstances would I respond to multiple emails from a single student; even daily emails to a student would be way beyond your pay grade. Could you bump this up to your chair? Perhaps copy your chair on the email to the student so that your chair is aware of the amount of handholding the student expects from you? You might have to write that you are responding to Stu's X number of emails and that Stu hasn't responded to your questions; in any case some higher up needs to know that Stu is bombarding you with emails instead of reading the slides and making an effort to work on the course materials.
Good luck with this student. Remind yourself that you are paid to teach courses, and not to tutor individual students through emails in addition to teaching your courses. Stu can meet with you for a 20 or 30-minute slot once a week.
Since it's a math issue- do you have a math tutoring center on campus that you can send them too?
I agree about refusing to teach via email. Remind Stu of when your office hours are and how to make an appointment if those don't work. This is passive-aggressive blaming of you for their problems.
I would also make sure my chair is in the loop at this point. This is exactly the type of student who likes to jump up the chain. Last semester I had one who initiated a phone calling campaign to my chair by several of their friends. He was NOT amused and threatened them with disciplinary action based on how pushy/bullying they were in their phone calls!
Quote from: mythbuster on February 24, 2021, 12:53:38 PM
Since it's a math issue- do you have a math tutoring center on campus that you can send them too?
I agree about refusing to teach via email. Remind Stu of when your office hours are and how to make an appointment if those don't work. This is passive-aggressive blaming of you for their problems.
I would also make sure my chair is in the loop at this point. This is exactly the type of student who likes to jump up the chain. Last semester I had one who initiated a phone calling campaign to my chair by several of their friends. He was NOT amused and threatened them with disciplinary action based on how pushy/bullying they were in their phone calls!
Yep. I responded to the student and let stu know that we also have a TA for the course who holds sessions going over material online. So, pleeeennnnty of resources.
Dang! Yep. Students do some crazy stuff. Sounds like the chair shut that down fast. I plan to email my chair in a few minutes.
Double-post.
I have not heard back from the student who wanted me to hold weekly synchronous classes in an asynchronous course. I'm sure I'll get some kind of crappy evaluation from stu saying that I wouldn't 'work' with students.
This summer is still virtual and I may create some kind of course introduction pdf that really goes into how the course is asynchronous (and what that means), etc. I mean, it's in the syllabus, but I doubt they're reading it. Not sure they would read the extra pdf, but I can try.
We're heading back in the fall (face-to-face), so it should be interesting.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 09:41:26 AM
Double-post.
I have not heard back from the student who wanted me to hold weekly synchronous classes in an asynchronous course. I'm sure I'll get some kind of crappy evaluation from stu saying that I wouldn't 'work' with students.
This summer is still virtual and I may create some kind of course introduction pdf that really goes into how the course is asynchronous (and what that means), etc. I mean, it's in the syllabus, but I doubt they're reading it. Not sure they would read the extra pdf, but I can try.
We're heading back in the fall (face-to-face), so it should be interesting.
Maybe make a "Welcome to Class!" video. Students are very likely to watch a short video. Plus, it's an actual demonstration of what "asynchronous" means since you aren't live-streaming the video.
Not teaching despair so much as teaching puzzlement.
I'm grading midterm papers. They are all mediocre, but so it goes.
One pattern I'm seeing (that I have seen in other classes, too) is that students are choosing to cite obscurely published versions of the articles or book chapters I assign (in little known anthologies, for example), instead of the originals, despite the fact that next to the title of each reading in the syllabus is a link (blue, underlined, and labeled "link") that, if they click on it, will take them directly to a PDF through the library website.
In other words, instead of clicking on the link I've provided (one click, or perhaps a second depending on how the library stores the document), they're -- what -- googling the author and title (always abbreviated on my syllabi, at any rate) and searching for free PDFs housed elsewhere? I'm deeply puzzled -- I arrange my readings so they have free access to everything through the library.
What gives?
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
In other words, instead of clicking on the link I've provided (one click, or perhaps a second depending on how the library stores the document), they're -- what -- googling the author and title (always abbreviated on my syllabi, at any rate) and searching for free PDFs housed elsewhere? I'm deeply puzzled -- I arrange my readings so they have free access to everything through the library.
What gives?
My guess is that they are using a citation generator so they don't have to look up how to cite it themselves. There are websites you can type in the title and the website writes the citation up according to the specified style (MLA, APA, etc.).
I'm seeing some really odd citations because of this.
Quote from: Charlotte on March 03, 2021, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
In other words, instead of clicking on the link I've provided (one click, or perhaps a second depending on how the library stores the document), they're -- what -- googling the author and title (always abbreviated on my syllabi, at any rate) and searching for free PDFs housed elsewhere? I'm deeply puzzled -- I arrange my readings so they have free access to everything through the library.
What gives?
My guess is that they are using a citation generator so they don't have to look up how to cite it themselves. There are websites you can type in the title and the website writes the citation up according to the specified style (MLA, APA, etc.).
I'm seeing some really odd citations because of this.
That could be. I've seen enough citations of the same documents in the same weird ways to investigate whether they're using the auto-generated citations from the publishers (all of which are in the Sage / Routledge / etc. family), and it's clear that despite my warnings about their inaccuracies, a number of students are going that route.
I'm still puzzled by the ones who find the anthologized versions and then cite those page numbers, too. It just seems like extra work for everyone (me for incorporating the links in the first place, them for doubling up my work).
It would help if I had a few more "A" papers to read, though. I feel like I'm grumpy because these papers are just blah. Not terrible, at least, but, well,
blah.
The students are probably feeling pretty blah, by and large. Lot of that going around this year.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 03, 2021, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 09:41:26 AM
Double-post.
I have not heard back from the student who wanted me to hold weekly synchronous classes in an asynchronous course. I'm sure I'll get some kind of crappy evaluation from stu saying that I wouldn't 'work' with students.
This summer is still virtual and I may create some kind of course introduction pdf that really goes into how the course is asynchronous (and what that means), etc. I mean, it's in the syllabus, but I doubt they're reading it. Not sure they would read the extra pdf, but I can try.
We're heading back in the fall (face-to-face), so it should be interesting.
Maybe make a "Welcome to Class!" video. Students are very likely to watch a short video. Plus, it's an actual demonstration of what "asynchronous" means since you aren't live-streaming the video.
I like this idea!
Quote from: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 01:08:06 PM
The students are probably feeling pretty blah, by and large. Lot of that going around this year.
So true! I've been trying to cut them some slack. I think the average on my midterms will be in the low-B range. We'll make it through.
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 01:39:59 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 03, 2021, 01:08:06 PM
The students are probably feeling pretty blah, by and large. Lot of that going around this year.
So true! I've been trying to cut them some slack. I think the average on my midterms will be in the low-B range. We'll make it through.
Yes. I blame online teaching. The dropoff is really high this year because they don't have the focused connections they usually have. And they are just not learning as much. So there.
I am slightly dreading my Spring quarter. I'm teaching a Freshman class. On the plus side, they've had a year of remote classes in high school and 2 quarters on online college so they should be comfortable with online classes. On the minus side, the prerequisite classes were all asynchronous and many were self-paced. This one is taught "live" on Zoom. I'm pulling out a lot from my bag of tricks to make the materials more interactive and fun.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 01:19:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 03, 2021, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 09:41:26 AM
Double-post.
I have not heard back from the student who wanted me to hold weekly synchronous classes in an asynchronous course. I'm sure I'll get some kind of crappy evaluation from stu saying that I wouldn't 'work' with students.
This summer is still virtual and I may create some kind of course introduction pdf that really goes into how the course is asynchronous (and what that means), etc. I mean, it's in the syllabus, but I doubt they're reading it. Not sure they would read the extra pdf, but I can try.
We're heading back in the fall (face-to-face), so it should be interesting.
Maybe make a "Welcome to Class!" video. Students are very likely to watch a short video. Plus, it's an actual demonstration of what "asynchronous" means since you aren't live-streaming the video.
I like this idea!
You could also put some spin on it and highlight that you hold "synchronous student help hours". Heck you could even rebrand for the rest of your term. Dear Students, I am re-opening my office hours as synchronous student help hours. Looking forward to you dropping in, small groups welcome!
Then we can start a betting pool on whether or not the student ever attends?
Quote from: teach_write_research on March 03, 2021, 06:19:24 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 01:19:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 03, 2021, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 03, 2021, 09:41:26 AM
Double-post.
I have not heard back from the student who wanted me to hold weekly synchronous classes in an asynchronous course. I'm sure I'll get some kind of crappy evaluation from stu saying that I wouldn't 'work' with students.
This summer is still virtual and I may create some kind of course introduction pdf that really goes into how the course is asynchronous (and what that means), etc. I mean, it's in the syllabus, but I doubt they're reading it. Not sure they would read the extra pdf, but I can try.
We're heading back in the fall (face-to-face), so it should be interesting.
Maybe make a "Welcome to Class!" video. Students are very likely to watch a short video. Plus, it's an actual demonstration of what "asynchronous" means since you aren't live-streaming the video.
I like this idea!
You could also put some spin on it and highlight that you hold "synchronous student help hours". Heck you could even rebrand for the rest of your term. Dear Students, I am re-opening my office hours as synchronous student help hours. Looking forward to you dropping in, small groups welcome!
Then we can start a betting pool on whether or not the student ever attends?
:)
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 03, 2021, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
In other words, instead of clicking on the link I've provided (one click, or perhaps a second depending on how the library stores the document), they're -- what -- googling the author and title (always abbreviated on my syllabi, at any rate) and searching for free PDFs housed elsewhere? I'm deeply puzzled -- I arrange my readings so they have free access to everything through the library.
What gives?
My guess is that they are using a citation generator so they don't have to look up how to cite it themselves. There are websites you can type in the title and the website writes the citation up according to the specified style (MLA, APA, etc.).
I'm seeing some really odd citations because of this.
That could be. I've seen enough citations of the same documents in the same weird ways to investigate whether they're using the auto-generated citations from the publishers (all of which are in the Sage / Routledge / etc. family), and it's clear that despite my warnings about their inaccuracies, a number of students are going that route.
I'm still puzzled by the ones who find the anthologized versions and then cite those page numbers, too. It just seems like extra work for everyone (me for incorporating the links in the first place, them for doubling up my work).
It would help if I had a few more "A" papers to read, though. I feel like I'm grumpy because these papers are just blah. Not terrible, at least, but, well, blah.
I provide the citations for all course readings at the end of my syllabus in a reference list formatted by the stylistic guidelines used in my field. Students often decide to ignore what I provided and make up their own citations. I have no idea why.
Quote from: darkstarrynight on March 04, 2021, 09:05:17 AM
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Charlotte on March 03, 2021, 11:20:15 AM
Quote from: traductio on March 03, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
In other words, instead of clicking on the link I've provided (one click, or perhaps a second depending on how the library stores the document), they're -- what -- googling the author and title (always abbreviated on my syllabi, at any rate) and searching for free PDFs housed elsewhere? I'm deeply puzzled -- I arrange my readings so they have free access to everything through the library.
What gives?
My guess is that they are using a citation generator so they don't have to look up how to cite it themselves. There are websites you can type in the title and the website writes the citation up according to the specified style (MLA, APA, etc.).
I'm seeing some really odd citations because of this.
That could be. I've seen enough citations of the same documents in the same weird ways to investigate whether they're using the auto-generated citations from the publishers (all of which are in the Sage / Routledge / etc. family), and it's clear that despite my warnings about their inaccuracies, a number of students are going that route.
I'm still puzzled by the ones who find the anthologized versions and then cite those page numbers, too. It just seems like extra work for everyone (me for incorporating the links in the first place, them for doubling up my work).
It would help if I had a few more "A" papers to read, though. I feel like I'm grumpy because these papers are just blah. Not terrible, at least, but, well, blah.
I provide the citations for all course readings at the end of my syllabus in a reference list formatted by the stylistic guidelines used in my field. Students often decide to ignore what I provided and make up their own citations. I have no idea why.
That gets to the heart of the puzzle! I'm pretty sure that would happen if I gave them a list, too.
It's useful for me sometimes to recall that students lead lives that remain secret to us (just as we led lives secret to our professors) and that their motivations, from their perspective, are completely rational. I try to bear this in mind as I read their work, a practice that I hope makes me a more generous interlocutor.
Right after I wrote this, a student emailed me to check her citation for a chapter in my syllabus reference list. I referred her to the syllabus.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 03, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
I am slightly dreading my Spring quarter. I'm teaching a Freshman class. On the plus side, they've had a year of remote classes in high school and 2 quarters on online college so they should be comfortable with online classes. On the minus side, the prerequisite classes were all asynchronous and many were self-paced. This one is taught "live" on Zoom. I'm pulling out a lot from my bag of tricks to make the materials more interactive and fun.
What if you asked them what has been effective for them so far in remote classes?
Quote from: bopper on March 05, 2021, 06:42:32 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 03, 2021, 03:51:09 PM
I am slightly dreading my Spring quarter. I'm teaching a Freshman class. On the plus side, they've had a year of remote classes in high school and 2 quarters on online college so they should be comfortable with online classes. On the minus side, the prerequisite classes were all asynchronous and many were self-paced. This one is taught "live" on Zoom. I'm pulling out a lot from my bag of tricks to make the materials more interactive and fun.
What if you asked them what has been effective for them so far in remote classes?
That is an excellent idea! I know that my previous students have liked watching videos, working in teams to make slides in Google Drive, and having more interactive activities in Zoom like brief polls.
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Maybe modify the assignment and tell them that they need to send the revised version, the original version, and a list of the changes they made. The added effort of making them list the revisions is probably enough of a deterrent to stop them from just turning in the same thing again.
Got the love the student who changed the font! "OK, so submitting in Ariel was so-so. Curlz? Too silly. Book Antiqua? Too serious. I need something modern yet timeless. I bet you'll LOVE it in Calibri!"
I require students to submit a list of changes with any revisions they do for me. They can also explain why they chose not to apply a particular piece of feedback.
I also make heavy use of the "track changes" function in Word when I grade revisions that are lightly or not revised. I open both in "Compare documents" view and can see immediately what is different. If something is a PDF and I the changes are unclear, I will paste it into Word for the comparison.
I had a mentor quite some time ago who used Turnitin the same way but for revision activities where the goal was substantial revision(s). He would make the percentages visible and encourage students to resubmit if they were above a certain threshold.
AR.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Do they really think that they're going to get a higher grade just for submitting the same thing a second time? Are they really that clueless about what "revision" actually means?
Quote from: apl68 on March 10, 2021, 09:42:45 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Do they really think that they're going to get a higher grade just for submitting the same thing a second time? Are they really that clueless about what "revision" actually means?
Maybe they found that it worked sometimes in the past, and there's no cost in giving it a try. It's like playing the lottery.
Playing the lottery sounds more like it.
I'm sneaky--I use two computers to grade revised assignments so that I can compare both assignments. I have no idea what the students were thinking when the directions referred them to the handouts on the differences between global and local revisions, and that revisions had to be substantial rather than cosmetic in order to earn higher scores. I have never had so many students submit identical assignments thinking that I wouldn't catch the absence of revisions.
the_geneticist, all the assignments are on Canvas. The assignment folders are very specific: for example, "topic1" followed by "topic1 Revise and Resubmit" once I have completed grading "topic1". The directions for the revised assignments require students to read my comments and revise accordingly.
Thanks, all for your suggestions. I will be requiring students to upload a document explaining how they revised their assignments. This is a writing course, so revisions are mandatory.
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
The midterm was open last week from 8 a.m. Monday to 11:59 p.m. Friday.
Stu emailed at 11:40 p.m. Friday with a sob story about how Stu had lost internet and couldn't take it after all. Ten minutes later, Stu logged in to the midterm and failed to submit anything before 11:59 hit.
Since Stu had already seen the midterm, I said Stu could come to any of my four blocks of office hours (8 hrs. total) with a blue book and write a make-up exam in person. Stu was most grateful. I sent a list of my office hours: before classes even begin on Mon and Wed and immediately after Stu's class meets on the same two afternoons.
Yesterday, Stu emailed me in the middle of Stu's class (not attending) to explain that Stu couldn't make it to campus for my last available office hour block (that afternoon). Could Stu take it next Monday instead? No. Could Stu take it today? No. New email from Stu suggests tomorrow instead. No. Somehow I am confident that Stu's inability to take the exam will all be my fault.
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work.
Why, after all these years of being post-college, do I still have nightmares about being in that situation? Including the one just last night! And I never, ever let that happen to me in real life.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 10, 2021, 12:08:27 PM
Thanks, all for your suggestions. I will be requiring students to upload a document explaining how they revised their assignments. This is a writing course, so revisions are mandatory.
I do this, but almost nobody follows my instructions. They also struggle with local vs. global revisions.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
I wonder if you told them "Imagine it is the last day of classes. You are not happy with your grade. You ask me, "What can I do to improve my grade?" This, this is what you can do to improve your grade."
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
The midterm was open last week from 8 a.m. Monday to 11:59 p.m. Friday.
Stu emailed at 11:40 p.m. Friday with a sob story about how Stu had lost internet and couldn't take it after all. Ten minutes later, Stu logged in to the midterm and failed to submit anything before 11:59 hit.
Since Stu had already seen the midterm, I said Stu could come to any of my four blocks of office hours (8 hrs. total) with a blue book and write a make-up exam in person. Stu was most grateful. I sent a list of my office hours: before classes even begin on Mon and Wed and immediately after Stu's class meets on the same two afternoons.
Yesterday, Stu emailed me in the middle of Stu's class (not attending) to explain that Stu couldn't make it to campus for my last available office hour block (that afternoon). Could Stu take it next Monday instead? No. Could Stu take it today? No. New email from Stu suggests tomorrow instead. No. Somehow I am confident that Stu's inability to take the exam will all be my fault.
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
AR.
Ugh. Better document all of this just in case you have to kick it up the chain of command.
I'd tell Stu to chat with their academic advisor since if they are having this much trouble completing one class, it is most likely true for all of their classes. And say that it is not mathematically possible for Stu to pass the class - they should withdraw or drop.
Quote from: bopper on March 11, 2021, 10:56:13 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
I wonder if you told them "Imagine it is the last day of classes. You are not happy with your grade. You ask me, "What can I do to improve my grade?" This, this is what you can do to improve your grade."
How much of this is just the Dunning-Kruger effect? If they understood what it was
supposed to be, they would have done that originally. The less
specific the feedback, the less likely it is that there will be appropriate revisions. (And what counts as "specific" to the prof isn't remotely what counts as "specific" to students, especially the weaker ones.)
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2021, 11:27:18 AM
Ugh. Better document all of this just in case you have to kick it up the chain of command.
I'd tell Stu to chat with their academic advisor since if they are having this much trouble completing one class, it is most likely true for all of their classes. And say that it is not mathematically possible for Stu to pass the class - they should withdraw or drop.
I think the email chain documents it pretty well, but also . . . I have no chain of command, and this is not Stu's first attempt at the course. Stu did not pass any classes last semester. I am sure the advisor is aware that there are issues.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
The midterm was open last week from 8 a.m. Monday to 11:59 p.m. Friday.
Stu emailed at 11:40 p.m. Friday with a sob story about how Stu had lost internet and couldn't take it after all. Ten minutes later, Stu logged in to the midterm and failed to submit anything before 11:59 hit.
Since Stu had already seen the midterm, I said Stu could come to any of my four blocks of office hours (8 hrs. total) with a blue book and write a make-up exam in person. Stu was most grateful. I sent a list of my office hours: before classes even begin on Mon and Wed and immediately after Stu's class meets on the same two afternoons.
Yesterday, Stu emailed me in the middle of Stu's class (not attending) to explain that Stu couldn't make it to campus for my last available office hour block (that afternoon). Could Stu take it next Monday instead? No. Could Stu take it today? No. New email from Stu suggests tomorrow instead. No. Somehow I am confident that Stu's inability to take the exam will all be my fault.
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
AR.
Alas, I remember when there used to be honor among slackers. Standards, lines you wouldn't cross, maybe a fleeting sense of shame passing through at times . . . like . . . you know . . .
Quote from: fishbrains on March 11, 2021, 11:59:58 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
.
.
.
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
AR.
Alas, I remember when there used to be honor among slackers. Standards, lines you wouldn't cross, maybe a fleeting sense of shame passing through at times . . . like . . . you know . . .
That was before the age of "everyone-is-a-victim". Now it's fashionable to make all of ones' failures results of bad public school, undiagnosed learning disability, inadequate parental support, etc. even if the main problem was missing all Friday classes and tests due to being passed out and hungover after Thursday night parties...... (They're a thing here where many students go home to nearby big city on weekends, so the big party night isn't Friday or Saturday.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 11, 2021, 12:25:35 PM
Quote from: fishbrains on March 11, 2021, 11:59:58 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
.
.
.
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
AR.
Alas, I remember when there used to be honor among slackers. Standards, lines you wouldn't cross, maybe a fleeting sense of shame passing through at times . . . like . . . you know . . .
That was before the age of "everyone-is-a-victim". Now it's fashionable to make all of ones' failures results of bad public school, undiagnosed learning disability, inadequate parental support, etc. even if the main problem was missing all Friday classes and tests due to being passed out and hungover after Thursday night parties...... (They're a thing here where many students go home to nearby big city on weekends, so the big party night isn't Friday or Saturday.)
I don't know. Maybe. The rules for teaching have changed a bit as well . . . probably for the better.
Dean Wormer's comment in
Animal House that "Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son" was something I could imagine a professor actually saying to at least one of my fellow non-achieving students back in the early 80's. My high school teachers certainly had no hesitation in telling us when we were being total f*ck-ups.
At any rate, life is good right here and now.
Our group project in the midst of remote pandemic learning is hobbling along and then someone has to go and be That Student.
Frustrated Student: Silent Student isn't doing anything!
Me: Ok, thanks for letting me know. I'll check into it ... Did you see their chat message letting you know they had an athletics competition today? I see they attended this set of meetings but these others were athletics travel conflicts. Do you see their contributions in the shared doc?
Frustrated Student: Silent Student never talks during our meetings! We do all the work!
I dig into logs and such. Silent Student has a strong A. Regularly messages me. Participates in the whole class remote meeting. Ohhhh. Frustrated Student missed meetings, late assignments, lower grade. Ah. Perhaps that frustration is a bit misdirected?
Closing scene.
Frustrated Student: I will miss class on Monday and the final project presentation because of athletics travel.
Me: flails to rid myself of young adult drama by dumping it on the fora, thanks for reading!
Is Frustrated Student even an athlete? Or are they just trying for what they perceive to be special consideration?
Of course, the professor is also allowing Silent Student, an A student who is also an athlete, to not do anything on group project.
Another reason to hate group work. Except in certain fields/ courses where the actual skill of group work effort is itself being taught, why does anyone bother with assigning such projects, when we all know that there will be freeloaders therein.
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 12, 2021, 09:51:48 PM
Of course, the professor is also allowing Silent Student, an A student who is also an athlete, to not do anything on group project.
Another reason to hate group work. Except in certain fields/ courses where the actual skill of group work effort is itself being taught, why does anyone bother with assigning such projects, when we all know that there will be freeloaders therein.
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 12, 2021, 09:51:48 PM
Of course, the professor is also allowing Silent Student, an A student who is also an athlete, to not do anything on group project.
Another reason to hate group work. Except in certain fields/ courses where the actual skill of group work effort is itself being taught, why does anyone bother with assigning such projects, when we all know that there will be freeloaders therein.
I can't tell if this post is sarcastic or assuming I'm being irresponsible with directing the group project and holding students accountable.
Yes, this is a group project because we are exactly in a field that heavily uses collaboration and they need to learn these basics, including effective communication and conflict resolution, for a later course in the major. We then advise them on how to transfer those skills to their next steps after college.
Frustrated student is definitely an athlete; it's a simple check of the team roster and the coach's travel/competition notification.
Absolutely you need to have a system for hearing what the students are experiencing. I don't have them specifically "grade" each other but they do reflect on and rate their individual contributions and the group experience. That, along with multiple individual assignments, helps me detect slackers and adjust scores when needed, or identify students with legitimate reasons to finish independently.
What else do folks do that helps students have a reasonably successful group project experience?
So how do you deal with the freeloader problem? Denying its existence, or requiring undergrads to solve it themselves, both are more or less nonstarters. Even in fields that require collaborative skills.
Mine all are in a group to share research, but they all turn in their own paper. So, they don't have to share their work with someone who doesn't do anything, right?
I had one student offer to wash the cars of his teammates when they told him to go **** off.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 14, 2021, 09:12:32 PM
Mine all are in a group to share research, but they all turn in their own paper. So, they don't have to share their work with someone who doesn't do anything, right?
I had one student offer to wash the cars of his teammates when they told him to go **** off.
Wow. Funny, but not too surprising.
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2021, 08:06:04 PM
So how do you deal with the freeloader problem? Denying its existence, or requiring undergrads to solve it themselves, both are more or less nonstarters. Even in fields that require collaborative skills.
I have teams sign a contract saying who is responsible for which tasks, when the tasks will be completed, the date of their next team meeting, etc.
I also build in time during class for them to work with their teams (reduces the "we couldn't find a time to meet!" issue).
Students that really do not contribute are the ones who typically drop the class.
Bang! It's midterm time, so notices went out to students who are not doing well, so they can make a decision about stepping it up or withdrawing before the deadline. I had a conversation with a graduate student, which included such revelations as: the syllabus does in fact provide the specifications for the major assignment for the course, perhaps purchasing the required course text would be helpful, and maybe it would be important to concentrate on the required classes for the program rather than taking fun electives during the semester in which you are scheduled to take one of the "hardest" courses in the program.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on March 13, 2021, 05:24:45 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 12, 2021, 09:51:48 PM
Of course, the professor is also allowing Silent Student, an A student who is also an athlete, to not do anything on group project.
Another reason to hate group work. Except in certain fields/ courses where the actual skill of group work effort is itself being taught, why does anyone bother with assigning such projects, when we all know that there will be freeloaders therein.
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
I've done two approaches, separately, both imperfect but both help I think:
-Peer review. Their grade has a component determined by the average grade given, anonymously, by their team mates.
-The other one is what I like to think of as "real world rules" - freelancing or starting your own business are not theoretical constructs in all fields, and neither are quitting or getting fired. Thus I let those who want to to go it alone, and they can also subdivide the original team however they choose. Thus while the initial teams are assigned to them, they don't have to stay intact.
Quote from: Stockmann on March 15, 2021, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on March 13, 2021, 05:24:45 AM
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
I've done two approaches, separately, both imperfect but both help I think:
-Peer review. Their grade has a component determined by the average grade given, anonymously, by their team mates.
-The other one is what I like to think of as "real world rules" - freelancing or starting your own business are not theoretical constructs in all fields, and neither are quitting or getting fired. Thus I let those who want to to go it alone, and they can also subdivide the original team however they choose. Thus while the initial teams are assigned to them, they don't have to stay intact.
I came up with something like this a few years ago for a course where students do a project with a partner. So far no-one's ever taken that option, so I haven't seen it in practice.
I'd be interested to hear more about options like this, because I think it's a good idea.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 16, 2021, 04:12:23 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on March 15, 2021, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on March 13, 2021, 05:24:45 AM
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
I've done two approaches, separately, both imperfect but both help I think:
-Peer review. Their grade has a component determined by the average grade given, anonymously, by their team mates.
-The other one is what I like to think of as "real world rules" - freelancing or starting your own business are not theoretical constructs in all fields, and neither are quitting or getting fired. Thus I let those who want to to go it alone, and they can also subdivide the original team however they choose. Thus while the initial teams are assigned to them, they don't have to stay intact.
I came up with something like this a few years ago for a course where students do a project with a partner. So far no-one's ever taken that option, so I haven't seen it in practice.
I'd be interested to hear more about options like this, because I think it's a good idea.
Except in cases where projects
must be done in groups (which is rare in my courses), I always give students the option of working alone or in a group. I do this for papers, too, especially now during online teaching -- my approach to cheating is simply to say any resource or friend they want to consult is fair game (within the rules of academic honesty), and then to write exams that require them to synthesize ideas. The idea is that having Wikipedia at your fingertips won't help or hinder your work, since the answers won't be found there anyway. The same idea for working in self-formed groups, if they so choose -- there's value in having someone to develop ideas with. As long as group-members know they're getting the exact same grade and the exact same feedback from me (something I tell them upfront), I'm fine with that. It puts the onus on them to choose groups wisely, if they want to choose them at all, and then to find ways to work together productively.
For the last set of papers I just finished grading, about 10 papers (of 65) were co-written. Added bonus: fewer papers for me to grade.
Quote from: traductio on March 16, 2021, 05:26:23 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 16, 2021, 04:12:23 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on March 15, 2021, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on March 13, 2021, 05:24:45 AM
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
I've done two approaches, separately, both imperfect but both help I think:
-Peer review. Their grade has a component determined by the average grade given, anonymously, by their team mates.
-The other one is what I like to think of as "real world rules" - freelancing or starting your own business are not theoretical constructs in all fields, and neither are quitting or getting fired. Thus I let those who want to to go it alone, and they can also subdivide the original team however they choose. Thus while the initial teams are assigned to them, they don't have to stay intact.
I came up with something like this a few years ago for a course where students do a project with a partner. So far no-one's ever taken that option, so I haven't seen it in practice.
I'd be interested to hear more about options like this, because I think it's a good idea.
Except in cases where projects must be done in groups (which is rare in my courses), I always give students the option of working alone or in a group. I do this for papers, too, especially now during online teaching -- my approach to cheating is simply to say any resource or friend they want to consult is fair game (within the rules of academic honesty), and then to write exams that require them to synthesize ideas. The idea is that having Wikipedia at your fingertips won't help or hinder your work, since the answers won't be found there anyway. The same idea for working in self-formed groups, if they so choose -- there's value in having someone to develop ideas with. As long as group-members know they're getting the exact same grade and the exact same feedback from me (something I tell them upfront), I'm fine with that. It puts the onus on them to choose groups wisely, if they want to choose them at all, and then to find ways to work together productively.
For the last set of papers I just finished grading, about 10 papers (of 65) were co-written. Added bonus: fewer papers for me to grade.
The interesting thing in Stockman's rules is the chance for groups to dissolve
during the project; so that people don't have to stay in a group that turned out to be dysfunctional. Having people start out as individuals is much easier.
A student who has been giving me crap all semester is now waiting in my WebEx (I just got an email).
Um, it's Spring Break and I'm having surgery tomorrow, so NO, I am not meeting you. You didn't follow directions. You didn't email me. You tried to turn in labs over a month late.
Just NO!
Quote from: traductio on March 16, 2021, 05:26:23 AM
For the last set of papers I just finished grading, about 10 papers (of 65) were co-written. Added bonus: fewer papers for me to grade.
I had a similar proportion in math projects. Added bonus: The ones that were done in groups tended to have the very best scores; most students who worked as individuals did not come anywhere near the quality.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 16, 2021, 08:56:23 AM
A student who has been giving me crap all semester is now waiting in my WebEx (I just got an email).
Um, it's Spring Break and I'm having surgery tomorrow, so NO, I am not meeting you. You didn't follow directions. You didn't email me. You tried to turn in labs over a month late.
Just NO!
Put your email in vacation mode so it auto replies that you are not available. Or reply with some boilerplate "Course grades have been submitted to the registrar."
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 16, 2021, 04:12:23 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on March 15, 2021, 04:36:12 PM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on March 13, 2021, 05:24:45 AM
I never assign group projects without incorporating an element of anonymous peer review that is factored into a student's grade. It doesn't solve the problem of freeloading entirely, but does provide an incentive for students not to slack off.
I've done two approaches, separately, both imperfect but both help I think:
-Peer review. Their grade has a component determined by the average grade given, anonymously, by their team mates.
-The other one is what I like to think of as "real world rules" - freelancing or starting your own business are not theoretical constructs in all fields, and neither are quitting or getting fired. Thus I let those who want to to go it alone, and they can also subdivide the original team however they choose. Thus while the initial teams are assigned to them, they don't have to stay intact.
I came up with something like this a few years ago for a course where students do a project with a partner. So far no-one's ever taken that option, so I haven't seen it in practice.
I'd be interested to hear more about options like this, because I think it's a good idea.
In this particular course, for logistical reasons the enrolled students were divided into teams of 4. In the Before Times, students self-assembled into these teams, and I don't think there was ever an instance of them breaking them up, though it was always an option. Since we've been doing this online, the "teams" have been assigned to them and some students have indeed gone it alone or split the original team into smaller teams. Nothing is set in stone about the teams until their reports are submitted; in that sense there is no default - they are in a "team" in that they have common deadlines and data sets but they can work from the start as a team or not.
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 14, 2021, 08:06:04 PM
So how do you deal with the freeloader problem? Denying its existence, or requiring undergrads to solve it themselves, both are more or less nonstarters. Even in fields that require collaborative skills.
That must be difficult if you deny the freeloader problem or require students to solve it themselves.
I use a definition of freeloader
1. multiple students in the group report concerns
2. student has multiple missing individual assignments
3. student shows no efforts to catch-up or participate
4. my communication/meeting with the student shows no major disruptions - one person's perception of a freeloader might actually be a student in crisis
The consequence is then point adjustments such that they only get credit for the parts of the project they contributed to, with an opportunity to complete it independently.
Writing class was given an exercise on in-text citations. The exercise and the answer key are on the MLA website. Guess how many students found the answer key and used that information to complete their assignment? Guess how I found that the students had found the answer key? The directions were to correct the mistakes in the paragraph. The answer key also included explanations for the mistakes. The explanations are in boxes in the margins. Student assignments also contain explanations identical or almost identical to those in the answer key in boxes in the margins. The directions did not ask for explanations. One student uploaded the answer key as Stu's assignment, so now I have to report Stu. Argh!!!!!
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 16, 2021, 06:05:03 PM
Writing class was given an exercise on in-text citations. The exercise and the answer key are on the MLA website. Guess how many students found the answer key and used that information to complete their assignment? Guess how I found that the students had found the answer key? The directions were to correct the mistakes in the paragraph. The answer key also included explanations for the mistakes. The explanations are in boxes in the margins. Student assignments also contain explanations identical or almost identical to those in the answer key in boxes in the margins. The directions did not ask for explanations. One student uploaded the answer key as Stu's assignment, so now I have to report Stu. Argh!!!!!
Dang!!!
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Same class, yet another opportunity to revise an essay for a higher grade.
Other than moving a few words around in the introductory paragraph, "revised" essays are identical to the original essays. One supposedly "revised" essay now has a missing title.
If students refuse to read the feedback and waste their time merely shuffling a few words around intead of actually revising, which would help with their upcoming assignments, it's their tuition money going down the toilet. I'm paid to give detailed comments, so I'm not complaining.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 23, 2021, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Same class, yet another opportunity to revise an essay for a higher grade.
Other than moving a few words around in the introductory paragraph, "revised" essays are identical to the original essays. One supposedly "revised" essay now has a missing title.
If students refuse to read the feedback and waste their time merely shuffling a few words around intead of actually revising, which would help with their upcoming assignments, it's their tuition money going down the toilet. I'm paid to give detailed comments, so I'm not complaining.
Are there any high schools where points are given for merely
submitting a "revised" version of something, regardless of whether anything was changed? It seems to me there must be something in these students' pasts making them think this will work.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2021, 06:34:16 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 23, 2021, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Same class, yet another opportunity to revise an essay for a higher grade.
Other than moving a few words around in the introductory paragraph, "revised" essays are identical to the original essays. One supposedly "revised" essay now has a missing title.
If students refuse to read the feedback and waste their time merely shuffling a few words around intead of actually revising, which would help with their upcoming assignments, it's their tuition money going down the toilet. I'm paid to give detailed comments, so I'm not complaining.
Are there any high schools where points are given for merely submitting a "revised" version of something, regardless of whether anything was changed? It seems to me there must be something in these students' pasts making them think this will work.
It makes you wonder, all right.
Understand that there are high schools where submitting
anything for an assignment is basically passing work. A lot of posters here at The Fora deal with students who have been accustomed to having to clear a very, very low bar in all sorts of things.
I've worked in high schools for our dual enrollment program where the lowest grade a teacher would give on an assignment was a 60. The policy was actually that the teacher couldn't assign a final grade for the course lower than a 60 without the special permission of the principal; but, of course, the grade book had to involve some kind of math to justify the final grade coming out to a 60. (Note: This policy obviously didn't apply to dual enrollment).
My dual enrollment students often complained about some of their other HS classes where students would just put their names on blank pieces of paper, hand them in, and receive a 60 for a grade; these slackers would then suddenly work "hard" the last few weeks to bring the grade up to something that was barely passing. My students questioned the value of receiving the same high school diploma as these students. I pointed out that this might be one of the reasons they were taking a dual enrollment course--that they were playing the long-qame. They were not amused.
Oddly enough, the "60" policy has a certain logic. If a student earns less than a 60 in a given quarter, there would be no reason for that student to even try for the next quarter because the averaged grades couldn't be passing no matter what the student did for the next quarter. What a mess.
Quote from: fishbrains on March 24, 2021, 10:15:33 AM
I've worked in high schools for our dual enrollment program where the lowest grade a teacher would give on an assignment was a 60. The policy was actually that the teacher couldn't assign a final grade for the course lower than a 60 without the special permission of the principal; but, of course, the grade book had to involve some kind of math to justify the final grade coming out to a 60. (Note: This policy obviously didn't apply to dual enrollment).
My dual enrollment students often complained about some of their other HS classes where students would just put their names on blank pieces of paper, hand them in, and receive a 60 for a grade; these slackers would then suddenly work "hard" the last few weeks to bring the grade up to something that was barely passing. My students questioned the value of receiving the same high school diploma as these students. I pointed out that this might be one of the reasons they were taking a dual enrollment course--that they were playing the long-qame. They were not amused.
Oddly enough, the "60" policy has a certain logic. If a student earns less than a 60 in a given quarter, there would be no reason for that student to even try for the next quarter because the averaged grades couldn't be passing no matter what the student did for the next quarter. What a mess.
In practice, I don't really give grades lower than 60 if a student has made something vaguely approaching a good faith effort to do the assignment. Lower than that is for when the student turned something in, but the thing was so deeply inadequate that the credit they get for that should be limited. However, if you don't enforce that very low standard you end up with ridiculous results. I'm fine with students who get a C in my course with a pretty minimal amount of effort and application, but you do have to do that minimum.
Student who is a little older than traditional students just shared that, because she was homeschooled and just took a few odd community college classes when she turned 18, this was her. First. Group. Project. Ever.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 24, 2021, 04:38:22 PM
Student who is a little older than traditional students just shared that, because she was homeschooled and just took a few odd community college classes when she turned 18, this was her. First. Group. Project. Ever.
Hopefully, she participated in a good homeschool situation and not a bad one.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2021, 06:34:16 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 23, 2021, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Same class, yet another opportunity to revise an essay for a higher grade.
Other than moving a few words around in the introductory paragraph, "revised" essays are identical to the original essays. One supposedly "revised" essay now has a missing title.
If students refuse to read the feedback and waste their time merely shuffling a few words around intead of actually revising, which would help with their upcoming assignments, it's their tuition money going down the toilet. I'm paid to give detailed comments, so I'm not complaining.
Are there any high schools where points are given for merely submitting a "revised" version of something, regardless of whether anything was changed? It seems to me there must be something in these students' pasts making them think this will work.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that as I do get the occasional student submitting the same assignment, fingers crossed that I won't see the absence of any revisions. With this particular class, this was the third instance of several students submitting unrevised assignments The earlier submissions were given detailed feedback and the class was also shown the difference between global and local revisions. These students have a chat room and seem to come up with ways to game the system as I found out when several of them submitted the same response for another assignment.
High school teachers probably do give points for submitting what students claim are revised versions. Teachers don't have the time to grade or even read all the assignments as the class size is around 26 (according to students in an earlier class) and the teacher has to teach 5 or 6 sections of English on any given day. In our city and state, students can submit all their "missed" assignments before the end of the school year.
I had to remind students some years ago at another institution that attending high school is a requirement, but that college is a choice and that the students have to decide if it's worth their while to not take their education seriously. In this institution, students for the most part are quite motivated. I've never had such an unmotivated class in at least a decade.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 24, 2021, 06:49:40 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2021, 06:34:16 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 23, 2021, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 09, 2021, 08:00:25 PM
Students were given the opportunity to revise a couple of assignments for higher grades. Guess how many of them were actual revisions? One student was creative enough to use a different font for the same assignment.
I'll have to start taking off points for submitting so-called "revised" assignments.
The head bang is for the time I spent comparing the "revised" assignments with the original ones.
Same class, yet another opportunity to revise an essay for a higher grade.
Other than moving a few words around in the introductory paragraph, "revised" essays are identical to the original essays. One supposedly "revised" essay now has a missing title.
If students refuse to read the feedback and waste their time merely shuffling a few words around intead of actually revising, which would help with their upcoming assignments, it's their tuition money going down the toilet. I'm paid to give detailed comments, so I'm not complaining.
Are there any high schools where points are given for merely submitting a "revised" version of something, regardless of whether anything was changed? It seems to me there must be something in these students' pasts making them think this will work.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that as I do get the occasional student submitting the same assignment, fingers crossed that I won't see the absence of any revisions. With this particular class, this was the third instance of several students submitting unrevised assignments The earlier submissions were given detailed feedback and the class was also shown the difference between global and local revisions. These students have a chat room and seem to come up with ways to game the system as I found out when several of them submitted the same response for another assignment.
High school teachers probably do give points for submitting what students claim are revised versions. Teachers don't have the time to grade or even read all the assignments as the class size is around 26 (according to students in an earlier class) and the teacher has to teach 5 or 6 sections of English on any given day. In our city and state, students can submit all their "missed" assignments before the end of the school year.
I had to remind students some years ago at another institution that attending high school is a requirement, but that college is a choice and that the students have to decide if it's worth their while to not take their education seriously. In this institution, students for the most part are quite motivated. I've never had such an unmotivated class in at least a decade.
Well, it's good to hear that this class has been an outlier. Maybe a lot of them have hit their walls in this pandemic year.
Quote from: ciao_yall on March 24, 2021, 04:38:22 PM
Student who is a little older than traditional students just shared that, because she was homeschooled and just took a few odd community college classes when she turned 18, this was her. First. Group. Project. Ever.
That's kind of hard to imagine. She's never been in a group project at church? With her family? At a job? With volunteer or mission work? At a home-school camp? It's not like most home-schoolers just sit around the house in total isolation. Even the wacky Adam-and-Eve-rode-dinosaurs-to-church homeschool crowd does group projects with their kids.
Anyway, I've heard stranger things I guess.
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
[. . . ]
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
Stu continues to email 2-3 times per week asking that I reopen different, random past assignments. I do not accept late work, as is clearly stated in the syllabus. I repeatedly reply with the same two sentences reminding Stu of this policy.
Midterm grades just went out, and I sent a class announcement telling students how many points they should have by now in order to have a chance of passing (or in order to have a shot at each grade tier).
Stu's response to the class announcement:
hey how you doing [avid] i just making sure you said if i turn in missing assignments right?
I am just exhausted.
AR.
That sounds really aggravating AR.
I guess I'm in a grumpy mood and I think I have a good reason to be. Stu who has been driving me nuts all semester wanted me to give stu a 'point for fun' on a test even though stu didn't know the answer. Um, no. You're a pain in my ass.
A la Seinfeld, "No point for you!"
I suspect you may well find that most hs students do little, if any group work, more or less ever. I cannot recall ever assigning such efforts there, at least not at all often. There are many reasons why this does not fly in most hss. One, students are often unable to get together regularly or reliably with classmates outside of school, and there is *nothing* teachers could do about this. Two, the slackers as freeloaders problem would be very much magnified in hs contexts, as would the expected complaints from high achievers and/or their parents. Three, some hss students will be noticeably *brighter* than others, and the less bright groupmates, however they may try, well....
There really is no pedagogical reason to force groupwork in hs, and little reason for most undergrad courses either.
Quote from: AvidReader on March 25, 2021, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on March 11, 2021, 09:40:20 AM
Student who has never attended class and has not turned in a single piece of work all semester, large or small, decided last week that it would be nice to take the midterm. I don't know why.
[. . . ]
Stu has missed 7 weeks of work. Stu cannot pass even if Stu takes the midterm. If Stu wants credit for doing something, Stu could come to class or submit a different assignment. There are dozens of other available items.
Stu continues to email 2-3 times per week asking that I reopen different, random past assignments. I do not accept late work, as is clearly stated in the syllabus. I repeatedly reply with the same two sentences reminding Stu of this policy.
Midterm grades just went out, and I sent a class announcement telling students how many points they should have by now in order to have a chance of passing (or in order to have a shot at each grade tier).
Stu's response to the class announcement:
hey how you doing [avid] i just making sure you said if i turn in missing assignments right?
I am just exhausted.
AR.
Stu sounds like a PITA. I would send a terse response advising Stu to refer to the policies in the syllabus and also to your responses to Stu's emails (include a number here) on this topic. I would add a sentence to the effect that you will no longer be responding to emails about late or missing assignments. You could also submit a progress report if your institution allows you to do so after the mid-term evaluations
evil_physics_witchcrafts, that is nuts. Perhaps you can tell your student that he/she can add the grade "for fun" in his/her own head.
I am handling my Stu by copy-pasting past email responses that encourage Stu to withdraw. I don't think I am allowed to stop answering student emails, but I do let each one wait 6-8 hours. Sometimes more arrive in the meantime. Stu is in a remedial course with mandatory attendance, so not having turned in any assignments is only one part of Stu's problem.
Stu had a paper due the day the midterm report went out, but --shockingly!-- chose not to submit that one either.
AR.
Re: group work: I graduated HS in 1971, and group work was never a part of our schooling experience that I recall.
In college (Ohio State), where I started in 1973 (took a year off to work and go to Europe in between) and finished in 1976, group work was never mentioned except in the theatre directing classes where we did scenes with other students in the class, and that was pretty clearly meted out by the parts they had: if you learned your part, took your blockings, and delivered your lines as directed--or not--you were graded appropriately. No room for fudging.
My grad work in one setting (1980s) included four expressive therapies programs which involved group projects but those were very professionally handled because most of the other students were experienced practitioners with strong ideas and willing input, making it very enjoyable and, I found, a good learning context for creating the workshops and seminars in the liturgical arts that I was offering at the time.
My later grad work (1990s), was nearly all guided independent studies within a structurally dysfunctional department that offered good reasons for students to collaborate informally, for their own sanity (I set up a dissertation reading group to this end, for example), but did not usually require group projects by its very nature.
Group work had become a teaching tool "thing" for undergraduates by that time, however: as a TA I was assigned to assist with group work and mostly did so by setting up a couple of 15-min. group meetings during class. I listened closely to their conversations, monitoring for one or two predominant voices.
In those cases, I'd pointedly ask the outliers for their ideas about what had just been said a couple times, to help integrate them into the conversation (some unbalanced "leader-follower" setups result from the leader's lack of group involvement skills: those limping along behind may have never been looped in to begin with). Modeling the expectation that all were to be included may have helped teach that skill to the leaders who lacked it, and put potential slackers on notice that someone was watching, and not to play that game.
I've also used it in choreographic settings, eliciting phrases and suggestions for how to join them together within a dance composition, and in music theory classes, where we often compose a piece together. But then, I'm usually the leader, and can be sure all are engaged directly. And grades aren't involved, the continuity, flow, and depth of communicativity in the dance itself is the judge of the group's success.
In adjuncting, I've found it less useful since, with 50 people in an Intro to Art Class, it's just not practical, and with 15 in a French I class, there aren't enough people to make more than 2-3 groups, although I would split them into small conversational groups about once a week to encourage interchanges in the language in class.
Again, I'd wander around the class, dropping in a word here or there or asking a question of an apparent non-contributor to keep them engaged.
Someone also told me once of their group work grading structure, but I've never had call to use it: I could look it up if it's useful, it's designed to balance point offerings among the individual members and the group as a whole, to correct for freeloaders.
Just musing, since it's now a "thing" with a history.
M.
I never did any kind of group work, either in K-12, undergrad (3 degrees), or grad school (MA-Research and ABD). Maybe disciplines have something to do with it? (BS Accounting, BA English, BA Biology, MA English, PhD work American Studies) The closest I came was having a lab partner in the biology degree, and even then, only in Gen Bio and Gen Chem; we also had the option of working alone if we wanted, and I usually did, because I did that degree as a non-trad. older student with kids (and thus it was easier to work alone than trying to schedule odd-scheduled follow ups around my/kids' schedules with a lab partner).
I've assigned some group work to students over the years, but all that remains now is the online/asynchronous peer editing in Comp classes. Virtually all my English colleagues have done the same.
YMMV, of course. I'd imagine there are some fields where group work is much more useful/necessary.
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 26, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
I've assigned some group work to students over the years, but all that remains now is the online/asynchronous peer editing in Comp classes. Virtually all my English colleagues have done the same.
Yup, this is the only group work I assign in my online asynchronous classes. In classroom classes I have students work in groups on short ungraded assignments. One student from each group makes a report to the class. This is rather painless for the students as they don't have to coordinate schedules outside of class and also don't have to put up with classmates who don't contribute to the assignment.
Students worked together to answer a question on a low-stakes assignment. Their answer, conceptually, made no sense for the topic. Like, no idea what someone was thinking. The question was a simple reading comprehension that could be answered from the textbook. Well that all took a lot more of my time than it needed to given that it was a simple low stakes reading comprehension assignment. Sigh. It would have been easier if they had just skipped it or said I don't have the book.
Quote from: teach_write_research on March 28, 2021, 01:45:51 PM
Students worked together to answer a question on a low-stakes assignment. Their answer, conceptually, made no sense for the topic. Like, no idea what someone was thinking. The question was a simple reading comprehension that could be answered from the textbook. Well that all took a lot more of my time than it needed to given that it was a simple low stakes reading comprehension assignment. Sigh. It would have been easier if they had just skipped it or said I don't have the book.
What's the point of making that group work? I sometimes break students into groups, but its usually to discuss some short piece of reading or document and answer some conceptual questions on it that should require a bit of thought. Mostly, I'm just trying to break up the flow of class and create conditions in which some of the students who don't talk much in class will engage a bit.
Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.
Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.
Time for a post-midterm warning.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 30, 2021, 05:53:01 AM
Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.
Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.
Time for a post-midterm warning.
I have Stu's twin in one of my engineering courses. He consistently loses points for not using the correct template files. They're located in a "Classwork and Homework Standard Files" folder on our LMS. Other courses use the same or similar templates because we, as a faculty, developed some standard formatting rules for CAD drawings, lab reports, etc. In fact, he was in one of my courses last semester that used templates. He's told his advisor (who is a friend of mine) that 'Dr. Mode is MEAN and takes off points for nothing. It's just because she doesn't like me.' He showed his advisor the graded work, and his advisor told him that perhaps he should read the instructions and the rubric and if he follows the rules that will earn him more points. So far, he hasn't.
One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.
In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.
In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.
Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.
But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 30, 2021, 07:18:22 AM
One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.
In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.
In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.
Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.
But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.
M.
Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.
After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."
You should wear a wire and replay the tape to the first class of each term.
;--}
M.
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 30, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own.
I bet they sometimes make up some interesting symbols on their own.
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 30, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."
For one of my advanced technical courses, on the first day, I do a talk about the strategies to succeed in the this course and the importance of the skills they will learn in this course for their professional development. All information is based on feedback from previous students about how they made it through the difficult material and how they are using it now in their internship/jobs. I probably need to record the previous students themselves talking about these things--maybe students will believe it then.
I actually do an anonymous survey with my seniors and they give feedback on what was useful from the introductory classes, what they've used at work and in their upper-division courses, etc., and share that with the first years. I think they pay a wee bit of attention to it, but I share it with them at the beginning of the semester. I'm thinking of also coming back to the survey results and sharing some of them again mid-semester to see if it helps reinforce the importance of standards.
And yes, some of the self-made symbols are quite entertaining!
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 30, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 30, 2021, 07:18:22 AM
One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.
In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.
In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.
Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.
But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.
M.
Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.
After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."
Yeah, I think its legitimately hard to see the point of these sorts of things until you've been in a setting where you are reading and using other people's work in order to do your job and its much harder to do when they haven't done things carefully in the right format.
Few things are more maddening than reading a book or article where the author casually throws off some extremely relevant piece of information that could solve a problem you've been encountering in your work, you go look at the footnote, dig some book from the 1950s out of the library, go to the cited page and find....nothing relevant. Did they get the page wrong? Do I have to browse through this entire book to see if its in there somewhere? Did the writer screw up their notes and cite the wrong book? Or was this actually just a drug fueled hallucination they had?
Quote from: Caracal on March 31, 2021, 05:21:07 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 30, 2021, 08:28:48 AM
Quote from: mamselle on March 30, 2021, 07:18:22 AM
One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.
In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.
In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.
Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.
But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.
M.
Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.
After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."
Yeah, I think its legitimately hard to see the point of these sorts of things until you've been in a setting where you are reading and using other people's work in order to do your job and its much harder to do when they haven't done things carefully in the right format.
That's one reason why it's advantageous for students to have had some kind of serious work experience before beginning their undergrad education. They've already had a chance to become familiar with the realities of having to follow procedures at work.
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 30, 2021, 05:53:01 AM
Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.
Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.
Time for a post-midterm warning.
Dumb question so I beg your indulgence.
Why do faculty stress so heavily on reference formatting conventions? They are really only ever used in academic writing which few students will do after they graduate. Those who go on to graduate school are presumably bright enough to learn the convention of their particular discipline and use it in their academic work. Undergrads who may be taking courses across STEM, the liberal arts, the social sciences and the health sciences are often faced with having to figure out multiple reference formats in a single semester.
My response to this is that I prefer students to use NLM, but they can use any format they are comfortable with and mistakes in formatting will not be held against them as long as I can find the original citation with minimal effort.
This seems to lower students' blood pressure and I can generally figure out where their source material came from easily enough. I'll leave it to their graduate advisors to sort out the rest.
Learning to follow directions, even ones that seem arbitrary, are a good life skill. Most jobs have SOPs and forms that have to be completed in a certain way and by a certain time. Charting patient records, entering insurance information, cashing in and out a cash register, logging food temperatures in a restaurant, etc. Doing it they same way every time ensures consistency, will keep you from getting fired for not doing your job, and can CYA if there is a discrepancy or concern.
I used to spend lots of time in class going over citation format and I used to mark down students who got it wrong.
I still knock off points for egregious errors, and I do insist that giving a URL is not enough.
But I have become much more relaxed about citation format. I just say I need to have all the relevant info about the citation, and recommend APA.
I feel good about letting that part go. It allows me to focus more on other stuff.
Quote from: downer on March 31, 2021, 10:56:44 AM
I used to spend lots of time in class going over citation format and I used to mark down students who got it wrong.
I still knock off points for egregious errors, and I do insist that giving a URL is not enough.
But I have become much more relaxed about citation format. I just say I need to have all the relevant info about the citation, and recommend APA.
I feel good about letting that part go. It allows me to focus more on other stuff.
Following citation conventions, whether MLA or APA, is a requirement for composition classes in our institution as well as in a couple of others where I've taught. A grade appeal was summarily dismissed a few years ago because the student had failed to follow even the most basic conventions. The student was also told that the grade should have been even lower because of the failure to follow the conventions in the final paper.
One year I forgot to teach specific documentation formats in a comp class (because of a combination of factors including trying to make up for sick time, fire drills, etc.) The assignment prompt still included the direction to use APA or MLA format. I noticed no difference whatsoever in the essays that came in.
I used to spend way too much time fixating on the specific details of citation, and not nearly enough time on the purpose of citation--it's there for the reader to be able to learn more about the topic if they choose to. And different discourse communities use shorthand because it's more efficient.
In my 100-level large enrollment general education course, I often get citations to "nasa.gov". This is essentially useless as a citation, as NASA has thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of pages on the internet. I need the full link to verify the source. Other than that, though, I am willing to consider any reasonable format for citations, as I know that the field norms vary significantly.
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 31, 2021, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 30, 2021, 05:53:01 AM
Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.
Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.
Time for a post-midterm warning.
Dumb question so I beg your indulgence.
Why do faculty stress so heavily on reference formatting conventions? They are really only ever used in academic writing which few students will do after they graduate. Those who go on to graduate school are presumably bright enough to learn the convention of their particular discipline and use it in their academic work. Undergrads who may be taking courses across STEM, the liberal arts, the social sciences and the health sciences are often faced with having to figure out multiple reference formats in a single semester.
My response to this is that I prefer students to use NLM, but they can use any format they are comfortable with and mistakes in formatting will not be held against them as long as I can find the original citation with minimal effort.
This seems to lower students' blood pressure and I can generally figure out where their source material came from easily enough. I'll leave it to their graduate advisors to sort out the rest.
In practice, I don't actually take off points for citation errors as long as the student has made a reasonable attempt to cite their sources. I do feel compelled to tell them how to do it correctly, however, because I know that other instructors do care and I don't want them to be blindsided in another class. Also, if they do something like a senior thesis it really will matter. Broadly, I also agree that its important that students learn about conventions.
I'm with you, however, that I don't know how much value there is in taking a really hard line on it. One thing I've noticed is that students really fixate on citation rules and formats, often far more than they worry about following the rest of the instructions for the paper or making an argument, or backing up their points with evidence. If they did all that stuff well, maybe I'd spend more time teaching citing.
Quote from: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 05:24:22 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on March 28, 2021, 01:45:51 PM
Students worked together to answer a question on a low-stakes assignment. Their answer, conceptually, made no sense for the topic. Like, no idea what someone was thinking. The question was a simple reading comprehension that could be answered from the textbook. Well that all took a lot more of my time than it needed to given that it was a simple low stakes reading comprehension assignment. Sigh. It would have been easier if they had just skipped it or said I don't have the book.
What's the point of making that group work? I sometimes break students into groups, but its usually to discuss some short piece of reading or document and answer some conceptual questions on it that should require a bit of thought. Mostly, I'm just trying to break up the flow of class and create conditions in which some of the students who don't talk much in class will engage a bit.
It was an individual assignment outside of class time. Working on it together was not a good decision for multiple reasons. Though it did give me a relatively accurate signal that they collectively had not done the reading!
Quote from: secundem_artem on March 31, 2021, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on March 30, 2021, 05:53:01 AM
Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.
Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.
Time for a post-midterm warning.
Dumb question so I beg your indulgence.
Why do faculty stress so heavily on reference formatting conventions? They are really only ever used in academic writing which few students will do after they graduate. Those who go on to graduate school are presumably bright enough to learn the convention of their particular discipline and use it in their academic work. Undergrads who may be taking courses across STEM, the liberal arts, the social sciences and the health sciences are often faced with having to figure out multiple reference formats in a single semester.
My response to this is that I prefer students to use NLM, but they can use any format they are comfortable with and mistakes in formatting will not be held against them as long as I can find the original citation with minimal effort.
This seems to lower students' blood pressure and I can generally figure out where their source material came from easily enough. I'll leave it to their graduate advisors to sort out the rest.
This course, one of several sections, requires students to use either the MLA or APA formatting for their assignments. The requirement is stated in the syllabus and also announced on the first day of class. I give students formatted templates so that their blood pressure doesn't go up.
Quote from: teach_write_research on March 31, 2021, 03:17:24 PM
Quote from: Caracal on March 30, 2021, 05:24:22 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on March 28, 2021, 01:45:51 PM
Students worked together to answer a question on a low-stakes assignment. Their answer, conceptually, made no sense for the topic. Like, no idea what someone was thinking. The question was a simple reading comprehension that could be answered from the textbook. Well that all took a lot more of my time than it needed to given that it was a simple low stakes reading comprehension assignment. Sigh. It would have been easier if they had just skipped it or said I don't have the book.
What's the point of making that group work? I sometimes break students into groups, but its usually to discuss some short piece of reading or document and answer some conceptual questions on it that should require a bit of thought. Mostly, I'm just trying to break up the flow of class and create conditions in which some of the students who don't talk much in class will engage a bit.
It was an individual assignment outside of class time. Working on it together was not a good decision for multiple reasons. Though it did give me a relatively accurate signal that they collectively had not done the reading!
Oh I see, sorry I'd gotten confused. That is a terrible decision...Don't copy the homework from someone who hasn't done the reading...
No, just No! I am not offering attendance points in this class! Your grade is based on your ability to demonstrate the competencies described in the course objectives by completing and submitting the assignments by the deadlines indicated in the syllabus. If other instructor wants to offer you points because you signed into the LMS during classtime and were not disruptive, then so be it. I'm not in charge of their class.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 01, 2021, 10:05:05 AM
If other instructor wants to offer you points because you signed into the LMS during classtime and were not disruptive, then so be it. I'm not in charge of their class.
Heh. We're not even allowed to measure attendance that way anymore at my place. According to last year's federal financial aid reporting requirements, merely logging into a CMS does not qualify as attendance.
But oddly, if a student shows up to class in an actual classroom, then that's okay.
Quote from: Aster on April 01, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 01, 2021, 10:05:05 AM
If other instructor wants to offer you points because you signed into the LMS during classtime and were not disruptive, then so be it. I'm not in charge of their class.
Heh. We're not even allowed to measure attendance that way anymore at my place. According to last year's federal financial aid reporting requirements, merely logging into a CMS does not qualify as attendance.
But oddly, if a student shows up to class in an actual classroom, then that's okay.
I suppose just logging in to the LMS during class is the online equivalent of signing the attendance sheet and then leaving. I'd expect a student to accomplish a task before I'd give any points. Logging in or setting foot in the room is the first step, not the final goal.
Sorry for the double-post.
Our transition to Canvas is making me bang my head in despair!
For whatever reasons, rather than updating immediately when a student registers, there is a lag so that students can't access Canvas until the day after they register.
And if a student changes sections, they are still listed in both sections.
And if a student drops the class, they are still listed as a user even though we're still in the "add, drop period".
So.
Many.
Emails.
"Help! I registered but I can't see the class!"; "Help! My class is meeting RIGHT NOW and I can't find it!"; "Help! I thought I changed sections, but I see both. Which one do I go to?"; "Why am I getting emails? I'm not in your class!"
Oh, and I have over 500 students in 20 class sections. And another class with 150 students in 6 class sections. I'm going to send them all an email saying "you need to tell me your user ID, the course name, and course section number in your emails. I need to know WHO you are WHAT class you are taking to help you."
And the kicker?
I have to fill out a trouble ticket to fix each and every one of these issues.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
We have a delay because the registration system needs to roll over that day's drop/adds to the LMS. I thankfully don't have that many students but I still keep a copy-paste of "Yes, that's normal. You should see your access update by tomorrow. It is fine and you will start on the first day you have access to the course."
Our drops don't get cleaned up from the LMS until after drop/add is over. It does make for a chaotic start to the term.
Ours happen ever 6 hours (~ish) so there is a minor delay between registration and access.
That can be a problem for a student who belatedly registers TODAY for a class TONIGHT.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 02, 2021, 09:50:49 AM
Sorry for the double-post.
Our transition to Canvas is making me bang my head in despair!
For whatever reasons, rather than updating immediately when a student registers, there is a lag so that students can't access Canvas until the day after they register.
And if a student changes sections, they are still listed in both sections.
And if a student drops the class, they are still listed as a user even though we're still in the "add, drop period".
So.
Many.
Emails.
"Help! I registered but I can't see the class!"; "Help! My class is meeting RIGHT NOW and I can't find it!"; "Help! I thought I changed sections, but I see both. Which one do I go to?"; "Why am I getting emails? I'm not in your class!"
Oh, and I have over 500 students in 20 class sections. And another class with 150 students in 6 class sections. I'm going to send them all an email saying "you need to tell me your user ID, the course name, and course section number in your emails. I need to know WHO you are WHAT class you are taking to help you."
And the kicker?
I have to fill out a trouble ticket to fix each and every one of these issues.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
What about assigning the task to the small army of TAs that your university has undoubtedly put at your disposal?
Quote from: Anon1787 on April 03, 2021, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 02, 2021, 09:50:49 AM
Sorry for the double-post.
Our transition to Canvas is making me bang my head in despair!
For whatever reasons, rather than updating immediately when a student registers, there is a lag so that students can't access Canvas until the day after they register.
And if a student changes sections, they are still listed in both sections.
And if a student drops the class, they are still listed as a user even though we're still in the "add, drop period".
So.
Many.
Emails.
"Help! I registered but I can't see the class!"; "Help! My class is meeting RIGHT NOW and I can't find it!"; "Help! I thought I changed sections, but I see both. Which one do I go to?"; "Why am I getting emails? I'm not in your class!"
Oh, and I have over 500 students in 20 class sections. And another class with 150 students in 6 class sections. I'm going to send them all an email saying "you need to tell me your user ID, the course name, and course section number in your emails. I need to know WHO you are WHAT class you are taking to help you."
And the kicker?
I have to fill out a trouble ticket to fix each and every one of these issues.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
What about assigning the task to the small army of TAs that your university has undoubtedly put at your disposal?
I do have a small army of TAs who teach the lab sections and do the grading, but they do not have access to the necessary information or forms to handle registration issues.
A student who has not attended class or submitted work since early Feb, now has a couple recent small assignments submitted for me to grade and scheduled an appointment for this week. I think I'm just despairing at my capacity to be professional and calm about it. I'm still stuck on, WTF!? No! Why?! What did you think that constant string of 0s meant?? I know there could be all kinds of legitimate problems that created the situation, but there is no path to complete the course at this point and I am worn out from being patient and professional.
Do not underestimate the need to fail a class properly to be eligible for financial aid. My school has a requirement that we record the last date of attendance for students who fail due to non-attendance. I once had a student submit no work other than taking the midterm and final (maximum total of 30% of the available points) and yet contact me to complain that he had internet problems while taking the final exam (which was online). Despite the fact that this student did not really attend my class at all (i.e., did not even attempt sufficient assignments to achieve a passing grade), I could not report him for non-attendance since he "attended" the final exam.
Ah, right, I was not thinking of the financial aid requirements. Much more manageable as just documenting an end of term last date attended. Next despair, determining that the enrolled student is the person actually submitting the work...
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 05, 2021, 02:50:00 PM
Ah, right, I was not thinking of the financial aid requirements. Much more manageable as just documenting an end of term last date attended. Next despair, determining that the enrolled student is the person actually submitting the work...
How would you make that determination? If you suspect dishonesty, then shouldn't you just pass it off to the conduct folks? Also, if the student isn't going to pass, then why waste your time on a "what if"?
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 05, 2021, 09:57:29 AM
I do have a small army of TAs who teach the lab sections and do the grading, but they do not have access to the necessary information or forms to handle registration issues.
At least you have a small army of TAs. I pity those who don't.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 05, 2021, 03:00:24 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 05, 2021, 02:50:00 PM
Ah, right, I was not thinking of the financial aid requirements. Much more manageable as just documenting an end of term last date attended. Next despair, determining that the enrolled student is the person actually submitting the work...
How would you make that determination? If you suspect dishonesty, then shouldn't you just pass it off to the conduct folks? Also, if the student isn't going to pass, then why waste your time on a "what if"?
If you have conduct folks to pass it to that would be an option.
The student scheduled an appointment with me so I will start with a conversation.
You ask an interesting question about checking for dishonesty when students aren't likely to pass. Should we skip it or do we still go through the whole reporting process?
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 05, 2021, 10:06:39 PM
You ask an interesting question about checking for dishonesty when students aren't likely to pass. Should we skip it or do we still go through the whole reporting process?
Given all of the bother involved, I wouldn't bother. (Clearly, a student who put in that little effort isn't cheating in a manner which is likely to result in academic success.)
If there were a way to report suspicions, accompanied by documentation, that would be considered if further instances came up, it would be much more reasonable to report. As it is, if the reporting causes a complicated, time-consuming and adversarial process, it's simply not worth it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 06, 2021, 03:47:19 AM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 05, 2021, 10:06:39 PM
You ask an interesting question about checking for dishonesty when students aren't likely to pass. Should we skip it or do we still go through the whole reporting process?
Given all of the bother involved, I wouldn't bother. (Clearly, a student who put in that little effort isn't cheating in a manner which is likely to result in academic success.)
This is interesting because a fairly new online school for which I taught for a while has been going through its accreditation process, and one of the requirements is that faculty must check to make sure that each student in each class is the enrolled student (photo or video verification matched to a government ID). However, my current brick and mortar school with hybrid and hyflex classes for COVID has no such guidelines. I can see photos of about half my students through the university registration system, but the students were allowed/asked to upload their own photos this year to avoid long lines in front of the ID office. When I see the students in class, their faces are covered by masks. When students attend online, many keep their cameras off. If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Online meeting with Pre-Physician Assistant student. Who doesn't want to get the vaccine because........just doesn't wanna.
I confess, I wasn't my usual patient and nurturing self.
The default settings in Blackboard have changed. I used to be able to have the site automatically send a reminder email when an assignment became available. The students really, really like this feature!
But now I can't! I can have it post an Announcement, but I can't tell it to email about said announcement because the "date selected is in the future". Yes, I know it's in the future! I want the email send in the future! You know, when the d@mn assignment is available!
I don't know if this is the best place, but I just got an email from a student who has made my semester 'interesting.'
Stu literally writes that stu found out today that stu lost two children, a wife and a dog in a 'tragic boating accident' and would like an extension on the homework.
Now, if this is true, then yes, it's horrific and I would certainly allow extra time. However, I am very skeptical considering the history I have had with this student and what stu thinks is 'funny.' How would you approach this?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 06, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
I don't know if this is the best place, but I just got an email from a student who has made my semester 'interesting.'
Stu literally writes that stu found out today that stu lost two children, a wife and a dog in a 'tragic boating accident' and would like an extension on the homework.
Now, if this is true, then yes, it's horrific and I would certainly allow extra time. However, I am very skeptical considering the history I have had with this student and what stu thinks is 'funny.' How would you approach this?
I would be very sympathetic but at the same time copy the advisor or your chair. You could tell the student that you are copying the advisor so that the student can give them the documentation regarding the tragedy.
I also would be sympathetic in my response and include information about how they can get help through whatever office at your university that deals with student issues. My school has an office for students in crisis (or possible crisis), where the student talks with just one person in that office and that person then reaches out to all of the student's professors, so the student does not have to keep repeating their story to lots of different people. They handle students with a range of issues, from death in the family to roomate squabbles. I would not indicate any actual change in deadlines or requirements in my response to the student, but simply state that you will work with them (the student) and the student-in-crisis-office to find the best path forward in these difficult times.
I would then, myself, report the student to our student-in-crisis office, because they are in crisis whether the story is true or if they have made it up.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 06, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
I don't know if this is the best place, but I just got an email from a student who has made my semester 'interesting.'
Stu literally writes that stu found out today that stu lost two children, a wife and a dog in a 'tragic boating accident' and would like an extension on the homework.
Now, if this is true, then yes, it's horrific and I would certainly allow extra time. However, I am very skeptical considering the history I have had with this student and what stu thinks is 'funny.' How would you approach this?
If true, it would have been on the news.
Quote from: arcturus on April 06, 2021, 10:15:55 PM
I also would be sympathetic in my response and include information about how they can get help through whatever office at your university that deals with student issues. My school has an office for students in crisis (or possible crisis), where the student talks with just one person in that office and that person then reaches out to all of the student's professors, so the student does not have to keep repeating their story to lots of different people. They handle students with a range of issues, from death in the family to roomate squabbles. I would not indicate any actual change in deadlines or requirements in my response to the student, but simply state that you will work with them (the student) and the student-in-crisis-office to find the best path forward in these difficult times.
I would then, myself, report the student to our student-in-crisis office, because they are in crisis whether the story is true or if they have made it up.
This is exactly what I do-- if the student is really in crisis, they are grateful that the care team has been activated (they often are too stressed to remember they can do this themselves). If they are not, they back peddle swiftly (has only happened once or twice).
I agree in this case the story seems unlikely, and even more unlikely that if it was true their first thought would be assignment extensions. However, it is also odd behavior if the student is just looking for an excuse (why not just kill off a grandparent like normal?) so as arcturus suggests that in itself may warrant an alert on the student-- my report would simply state what the student had told me, note that I don't know that it is true or not, and provide any context on other odd student behavior you've observed. Keep the tone observational and non-judgmental. Then let the experts sort it out from there.
Good points. Thanks everyone. My instinct was to check the news and I saw nada, rien, zip, zilch- big fat goose egg (interthreaduality?).
But..... just in case, I will cc the proper authorities when I respond to kidlet.
Quote from: Puget on April 07, 2021, 06:16:23 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 06, 2021, 10:15:55 PM
I also would be sympathetic in my response and include information about how they can get help through whatever office at your university that deals with student issues. My school has an office for students in crisis (or possible crisis), where the student talks with just one person in that office and that person then reaches out to all of the student's professors, so the student does not have to keep repeating their story to lots of different people. They handle students with a range of issues, from death in the family to roomate squabbles. I would not indicate any actual change in deadlines or requirements in my response to the student, but simply state that you will work with them (the student) and the student-in-crisis-office to find the best path forward in these difficult times.
I would then, myself, report the student to our student-in-crisis office, because they are in crisis whether the story is true or if they have made it up.
This is exactly what I do-- if the student is really in crisis, they are grateful that the care team has been activated (they often are too stressed to remember they can do this themselves). If they are not, they back peddle swiftly (has only happened once or twice).
I agree in this case the story seems unlikely, and even more unlikely that if it was true their first thought would be assignment extensions. However, it is also odd behavior if the student is just looking for an excuse (why not just kill off a grandparent like normal?) so as arcturus suggests that in itself may warrant an alert on the student-- my report would simply state what the student had told me, note that I don't know that it is true or not, and provide any context on other odd student behavior you've observed. Keep the tone observational and non-judgmental. Then let the experts sort it out from there.
I have had a few other interactions with this student and 'odd' is an appropriate descriptor of stu's behavior.
I agree with alerting ALL of the helpful services: crisis response team, counseling center, their academic advisor, Dean of Students, etc.
Either the student is in a true crisis and needs the help or they don't realize that you don't joke about these matters and this will be quite the wake-up call.
Sort of like how some folks don't realize that pulling a fire alarm as a "joke" when there is no fire means the fire department will still show up. And in many places colleges & universities are given high priority and the firefighters will leave or delay responding to other calls. That means fines and possible jail time for fake alarms.
Same class, different assignment. I gave extensive feedback on drafts. Guess how many students submitted the same old drafts?
Guess how many students have even looked at the modules or the directions for this and other assignments?
I spent 1/2 hour, twice, going over a student's draft in architecture history. The second version had only incorporated a few of my not-just-sugggested-but-necessary changes (No, that church building was constructed in the 1830s, you CAN'T call it "colonial" even if their materials try to make you think it is...and I already said that when you first asked me about doing a paper on it!)
Her final draft, turned in, still incorporated none of the required changes. So I gave her a D.
Guess which student went to the chair and complained about her grade, didn't mention the two meetings, and blamed me for being an "unkind teacher"?
Yup.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on April 07, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
Guess which student went to the chair and complained about her grade, didn't mention the two meetings, and blamed me for being an "unkind teacher"?
Fortunately, "kindness" is not a valid metric to measure a professor's effectiveness. Equity, yes. Accessibility, yes. Punctuality, yes.
Heck, I actually prefer hiring the "mean" professors when given the option. Most of my "mean" professors don't grade inflate assessments out the wazoo, don't dole out "attendance grades", and aren't in fear for their future employment if god forbid they don't give 80% of their students A's and B's.
Not that I'm claiming you're a mean professor. I just find it funny that any student would walk into a department head or dean's office, complain about a professor being "unkind", and expecting anything out of that other than a quiet stare-down and maybe an internal head shake. Lol.
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
In the BBC cop shows that would be an arrestable offence for "wasting police time," as well as all the concern, empathy, and worry you might have expended on the student.
I'm very sorry that you had to even consider dealing with such a scenario, and very angry at the student (on your behalf) for being so cynically cruel.
M.
While I am glad to hear that your student responded that they are ok, you should still report them to your university's Care team. If they made it up, it is not normal behavior. If it is true, they really do need the support available. In other words, I would interpret this as a cry for help.
Quote from: AvidReader on April 06, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
<snip> If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Yes. I had a highly likely case in the Fall. I include an academic integrity statement on exams. During the testing window for the third of four exams, the student contacted me to report that they were tempted to act unethically (the statement says to contact me in such cases). I was not surprised since they had excellent scores on the previous exams but were otherwise failing from a lack of other work and lack of attendance. Now of course I can't say that my assignments are so perfectly crafted to predict exam scores, but that profile is a pretty clear flag. The student completely withdrew around the point I was considering how to formally report it.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
Breathe through that insanity.
You can still report it as a concerning behavior. I mean, we are all in the middle of collective trauma so jokes about extreme trauma, especially if trying to manipulate a professor, are inappropriate and borderline lacking in integrity. If it is maybe a real trauma, then this overly casual reaction is still a concern.
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
Breathe through that insanity.
You can still report it as a concerning behavior. I mean, we are all in the middle of collective trauma so jokes about extreme trauma, especially if trying to manipulate a professor, are inappropriate and borderline lacking in integrity. If it is maybe a real trauma, then this overly casual reaction is still a concern.
Yep. Stu is sending more email. SO thinks that stu is looking for attention. I'm leaving it until tomorrow.
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 06, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
<snip> If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Yes. I had a highly likely case in the Fall. I include an academic integrity statement on exams. During the testing window for the third of four exams, the student contacted me to report that they were tempted to act unethically (the statement says to contact me in such cases). I was not surprised since they had excellent scores on the previous exams but were otherwise failing from a lack of other work and lack of attendance. Now of course I can't say that my assignments are so perfectly crafted to predict exam scores, but that profile is a pretty clear flag. The student completely withdrew around the point I was considering how to formally report it.
Didn't someone on the old forum have a doozy of a case like that?
I can't recall details now, but it seems like it came down to requiring them to bring in high school yearbook photos of themselves, or passports, or something, to establish their actual appearance tied to their "in-class identity"?
And then someone bolted, a fairly clear admission of guilt that was never confirmed.
It wasn't on the order of Anthroid's Binders of Doom, but it was close.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on April 07, 2021, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 06, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
<snip> If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Yes. I had a highly likely case in the Fall. I include an academic integrity statement on exams. During the testing window for the third of four exams, the student contacted me to report that they were tempted to act unethically (the statement says to contact me in such cases). I was not surprised since they had excellent scores on the previous exams but were otherwise failing from a lack of other work and lack of attendance. Now of course I can't say that my assignments are so perfectly crafted to predict exam scores, but that profile is a pretty clear flag. The student completely withdrew around the point I was considering how to formally report it.
Didn't someone on the old forum have a doozy of a case like that?
I can't recall details now, but it seems like it came down to requiring them to bring in high school yearbook photos of themselves, or passports, or something, to establish their actual appearance tied to their "in-class identity"?
And then someone bolted, a fairly clear admission of guilt that was never confirmed.
It wasn't on the order of Anthroid's Binders of Doom, but it was close.
M.
I'm glad I was spared that! It helped that the student previously took a class with me and I'm at a small college. I had enough information to know those exams scores were not legit, but not enough information to unmask the cheating. I was leaning towards a family member who thought helping the student pass the exams was sufficient to pass the class. A mental health crisis was involved too. Hard times.
Quote from: mamselle on April 07, 2021, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 06, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
<snip> If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Yes. I had a highly likely case in the Fall. I include an academic integrity statement on exams. During the testing window for the third of four exams, the student contacted me to report that they were tempted to act unethically (the statement says to contact me in such cases). I was not surprised since they had excellent scores on the previous exams but were otherwise failing from a lack of other work and lack of attendance. Now of course I can't say that my assignments are so perfectly crafted to predict exam scores, but that profile is a pretty clear flag. The student completely withdrew around the point I was considering how to formally report it.
Didn't someone on the old forum have a doozy of a case like that?
Are you thinking of the Fake Jake saga?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
Breathe through that insanity.
I would report this student and let the higher-up decide what kind of support the student needs. Stu should not be sending those emails to anyone, let alone a professor. I would bump this up the chain of command and refuse to engage with this student.
You can still report it as a concerning behavior. I mean, we are all in the middle of collective trauma so jokes about extreme trauma, especially if trying to manipulate a professor, are inappropriate and borderline lacking in integrity. If it is maybe a real trauma, then this overly casual reaction is still a concern.
Yep. Stu is sending more email. SO thinks that stu is looking for attention. I'm leaving it until tomorrow.
Quote from: namazu on April 07, 2021, 11:50:26 PM
Quote from: mamselle on April 07, 2021, 08:48:53 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:42:12 PM
Quote from: AvidReader on April 06, 2021, 08:46:47 AM
<snip> If a student wanted to send in a ringer, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do so at any stage of the process.
AR.
Yes. I had a highly likely case in the Fall. I include an academic integrity statement on exams. During the testing window for the third of four exams, the student contacted me to report that they were tempted to act unethically (the statement says to contact me in such cases). I was not surprised since they had excellent scores on the previous exams but were otherwise failing from a lack of other work and lack of attendance. Now of course I can't say that my assignments are so perfectly crafted to predict exam scores, but that profile is a pretty clear flag. The student completely withdrew around the point I was considering how to formally report it.
Didn't someone on the old forum have a doozy of a case like that?
Are you thinking of the Fake Jake saga?
That's it.
How did that go? (Bewails, once again, the loss of the Old Forum as a research tool).
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 08, 2021, 05:17:25 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 07, 2021, 06:54:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
Breathe through that insanity.
I would report this student and let the higher-up decide what kind of support the student needs. Stu should not be sending those emails to anyone, let alone a professor. I would bump this up the chain of command and refuse to engage with this student.
You can still report it as a concerning behavior. I mean, we are all in the middle of collective trauma so jokes about extreme trauma, especially if trying to manipulate a professor, are inappropriate and borderline lacking in integrity. If it is maybe a real trauma, then this overly casual reaction is still a concern.
Yep. Stu is sending more email. SO thinks that stu is looking for attention. I'm leaving it until tomorrow.
I seem to have inserted my post in EPW's post. Here it is again: I would report this student and let the higher-up decide what kind of support the student needs. Stu should not be sending those emails to anyone, let alone a professor. I would bump this up the chain of command and refuse to engage with this student.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
I responded to the student who 'lost a wife, 2 kids and a dog in a tragic boating accident.' I supplied links to counseling, withdrawal, etc. Stu emails me back with, 'Nah. I'm fine. I realized we didn't have anything due this week.'
Wtf student? God, I'm just so very tired of all of this. I'm 99.99999999999999999999% sure that stu is just full of shit, but for the love of everything that is holy, why do I have to get the psychopaths?
Report it to ALL of the support folks. That is not something to joke about. Stu is either an immature prankster and needs to grow up or they have some issues that are way above your pay grade to handle.
Stu needs to have the equivalent of a support SWAT team kick in their door.
Edit: I forgot I already posted that stu responded with 'Nah, I'm fine.'
Shaking my damn head.
Stu then responded again telling me that stu 'found' the missing family members.
I'm at a loss for words. And I'm tired, so tired of this crap.
I would not engage with this student. See the_geneticist's post above.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 08, 2021, 07:52:05 PM
I would not engage with this student. See the_geneticist's post above.
I agree and I haven't. I'm just going to report to the higher ups.
Look here TA, it's the end of week 2 and you have done ZERO grading. The agenda for our end of the week meeting in week 1, and your contract, and my emails all included "all grades to be posted within 1 week of assignment due dates". You are failing to do your job and being unfair to your students. Emailing me today to ask "where are the answer keys" that I shared with you a week ago is not making me feel any better about your capabilities.
I will be checking the grade book to make sure that you hold to your promise of finishing grading TODAY. And I'll be cc'ing our emailed conversations up the chain of command. Don't make me escalate this.
Bang! Bang!
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 09, 2021, 02:48:48 PM
Look here TA, it's the end of week 2 and you have done ZERO grading. The agenda for our end of the week meeting in week 1, and your contract, and my emails all included "all grades to be posted within 1 week of assignment due dates". You are failing to do your job and being unfair to your students. Emailing me today to ask "where are the answer keys" that I shared with you a week ago is not making me feel any better about your capabilities.
I will be checking the grade book to make sure that you hold to your promise of finishing grading TODAY. And I'll be cc'ing our emailed conversations up the chain of command. Don't make me escalate this.
Bang! Bang!
I do not usually have a TA's assistance, but my department head offered to hire a doctoral student for five hours a week to help me grade my largest course (40 masters students in that one online). The TA seemed great initially, but soon I got emails from students telling me the TA called them different students' names in the class when grading, so they were not sure if they received the correct grade and feedback. It is so embarrassing because students attribute this sloppiness to my teaching. The TA apologized to students via email, but now I have to grade certain people who the TA upset previously. I asked the TA to stop using names in comments to avoid this since it happened multiple times (I did not go back and check how bad it was). Even though it helps when the TA grades 20 students' work since I have two other graduate classes that are quite large, the TA grades more slowly and cannot keep names straight (which are in the LMS at the top when grading a specific student's work, so I am not sure how it is even possible to pick another student's name and write it in the comment box). Sigh.
Is it possible that the TA is copying and pasting feedback? I keep a file of paper comments and have had to train myself to add student names only after importing any of these because I had a few near misses. Right now I am grading something that students worked on in groups and I am pasting the same two sentences describing a recurring error into every single comment box.
AR.
My Lost Student has lost it totally as Stu is now uploading assignments that are off-topic. For one assignment, instead of uploading the annotated bibliography, Lost Stu uploaded an annotated reading. There are a couple more such mis-assignments.
Quote from: AvidReader on April 12, 2021, 09:18:24 AM
Is it possible that the TA is copying and pasting feedback? I keep a file of paper comments and have had to train myself to add student names only after importing any of these because I had a few near misses.
+1
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 09, 2021, 02:48:48 PM
Look here TA, it's the end of week 2 and you have done ZERO grading. The agenda for our end of the week meeting in week 1, and your contract, and my emails all included "all grades to be posted within 1 week of assignment due dates". You are failing to do your job and being unfair to your students. Emailing me today to ask "where are the answer keys" that I shared with you a week ago is not making me feel any better about your capabilities.
I will be checking the grade book to make sure that you hold to your promise of finishing grading TODAY. And I'll be cc'ing our emailed conversations up the chain of command. Don't make me escalate this.
Bang! Bang!
They actually finished! They stayed up until nearly midnight, but they are caught up for now.
They have another set of worksheets to grade before tomorrow that they haven't started yet. Sigh. Time for another reminder email . . .
Quote from: AvidReader on April 12, 2021, 09:18:24 AM
Is it possible that the TA is copying and pasting feedback? I keep a file of paper comments and have had to train myself to add student names only after importing any of these because I had a few near misses. Right now I am grading something that students worked on in groups and I am pasting the same two sentences describing a recurring error into every single comment box.
AR.
I do not think so, only because the TA asked me to provide samples for grading and feedback on the various assignments as hu is not familiar with my subject area (a niche of hu's broad area). I do not have a bank of feedback (I know, I know, this would probably speed my grading up but I give very personalized feedback).
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 05, 2021, 01:46:22 PM
A student who has not attended class or submitted work since early Feb, now has a couple recent small assignments submitted for me to grade and scheduled an appointment for this week. I think I'm just despairing at my capacity to be professional and calm about it. I'm still stuck on, WTF!? No! Why?! What did you think that constant string of 0s meant?? I know there could be all kinds of legitimate problems that created the situation, but there is no path to complete the course at this point and I am worn out from being patient and professional.
arcturus posted a helpful reply on this situation, reminding me that the registrar and financial aid offices would need to confirm last date of attendance. So the student reappearing after a looooong silent period makes some sense.
But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.
I had a student submit work from early in the semester today. They got 55% on it before the late penalty. With the late penalty they got 0%. Hopefully they learned something though. They will certainly fail unless they withdraw.
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 14, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.
I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.
Quote from: Puget on April 14, 2021, 06:46:34 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 14, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.
I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.
Ah, the "what do I have to lose?" case.
I have had some really, truly miserable student life-events this semester. It is awful, but it does help me to keep perspective.
>>>>>>>>>
By contrast to the people with real problems, Mr.-Charming-Mostly-Comes-To-Class-and-Asks-Questions-Into-the-Zoom-Void.
CMCTCAAQITZV, after literally months of my attempts to intervene, to the point where I have tried to find out how to administratively drop a student from my class...
CMCTCAAQITZV pipes up, at the end of a Zoom class when there are still about a dozen folks listening in: "I can't pass this course, can I?"
Well... NO! NO, no you cannot. You couldn't tomorrow, cannot today, could not 2 MONTHS AGO when we had the very same conversation.
...
So, now it's out in the open. I said it. We all heard it.
<beat>
Stu's response...
"So, I'll see you at the final?"
Quote from: Puget on April 14, 2021, 06:46:34 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 14, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.
I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if you followed students like this along with a comparison group of students who simply vanished at some point in the semester. I wonder if the vanishing students would be more likely to eventually get their act together and graduate. It probably isn't a good decision to enroll in courses and then not finish, but at least the vanishing students aren't lying to themselves
Quote from: Caracal on April 15, 2021, 05:09:09 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 14, 2021, 06:46:34 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 14, 2021, 03:23:25 PM
But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.
I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if you followed students like this along with a comparison group of students who simply vanished at some point in the semester. I wonder if the vanishing students would be more likely to eventually get their act together and graduate. It probably isn't a good decision to enroll in courses and then not finish, but at least the vanishing students aren't lying to themselves
They may not be that different. The vanishing students may have been "planning" to write the final, and then forgot about it, or slept in, or whatever.
My hunch would be ones who stop participating partway through but
don't actually drop the course are in some serious form of denial, regardless of whether they make some sort of "Hail Mary" effort at the bitter end.
I have a student with a 17% average in the course. He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm. However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons? Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.
Quote from: cathwen on April 15, 2021, 06:28:55 AM
I have a student with a 17% average in the course. He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm. However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons? Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.
Could be. Who knows? I have a lab student who only does prelab quizzes despite me sending email about not turning in labs. Stu never responds (or reads email?).
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 15, 2021, 08:03:33 AM
Quote from: cathwen on April 15, 2021, 06:28:55 AM
I have a student with a 17% average in the course. He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm. However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons? Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.
Could be. Who knows? I have a lab student who only does prelab quizzes despite me sending email about not turning in labs. Stu never responds (or reads email?).
Students sometimes have reasons for sticking with courses that they know they will fail, and it isn't always magical thinking.
Financial aid is a possibility. So is an International visa. So is maintaining a course load so that they can keep their housing.
And sometimes they know that they are going to have to pass the class eventually, so they might as well get something out of it this time around. Just knowing what the assignments and exams look like is a huge benefit.
I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.
Quote from: apl68 on April 15, 2021, 12:40:52 PM
I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.
I think that some students are forced into uncomfortable ethical dilemmas based on the restrictions surrounding financial support for higher education. If you are trying to pay your own way, by working 20-40 hours per week, but you only qualify for scholarships or merit aid if you are "full-time" (usually at least 12 credit hours), then there is not sufficient time in the week to do well in all of your classes. If schools were more flexible about providing aid to part-time students, students might make different choices.
Of course, there will always be some students who make bad choices, regardless of how the system is structured.
I have a student who has now missed their 8th class of the semester. We have very few in-person classes and the caps are very limited so I am annoyed that this student is taking the spot of someone who could have really benefitted from the class. It's an elective but several of our four-year partners want the class for transfer.
Quote from: apl68 on April 15, 2021, 12:40:52 PM
I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.
Just in case others are having similar thoughts: Taking on financial aid debt is not a scam. apl68 seems to be inferring rampant scamming from a few isolated cases that are clustering together in a conversation on teaching frustrations. Slow down any rush to judgment.
The students are following the federal regulations and institutional policies as best they can while caught in family disruptions and deaths, illness, concussions, mental health crises, etc. that do not adhere to the limited academic term. I usually estimate about 20% of students in my classes each term are going to need accommodations, 5% or less are going to have extreme crises that require a close look at institutional policies and procedures and federal regulations. It's definitely higher with COVID.
So back to the frustration. cathwen - yes, totally puzzling. I think mainly it's the lack of communication that frustrates me as I try to balance reasonable flexibility and sticking to course policies.
Most of my TAs are responsible, organized, and need little supervision.
But yikes do I have a few that need to step it up.
I provide answer keys and grading guides. Do they follow them? sort of
Are they at least consistent in how they don't follow them? nope
Do they at least finish their grading by the expected deadline? nope
I need to have a private Zoom chat with some of them. The points will not "even out" if you are tougher grading one week than another. No, you can't give students more points if they "wrote a lot". Yes, you do have to give feedback so students know what they missed. If I tell you that you need to go back and rescore a certain question, I mean it.
I know it takes time & training to be a consistent grader, but I'm starting to suspect that two of them are just inattentive/lazy.
Quote from: arcturus on April 15, 2021, 12:49:10 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 15, 2021, 12:40:52 PM
I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.
I think that some students are forced into uncomfortable ethical dilemmas based on the restrictions surrounding financial support for higher education. If you are trying to pay your own way, by working 20-40 hours per week, but you only qualify for scholarships or merit aid if you are "full-time" (usually at least 12 credit hours), then there is not sufficient time in the week to do well in all of your classes. If schools were more flexible about providing aid to part-time students, students might make different choices.
Of course, there will always be some students who make bad choices, regardless of how the system is structured.
Well, and I think the problem is that these choices are going to have different sorts of long term effects depending on the student's circumstances. 18-21 year olds don't always make good decisions. I have a family member who was trying to balance various life events and parental expectations and handled it by just vanishing from all of his classes. In the end it was fine, he took a couple of years off and by the time he went back to school he was older and better able to manage things. However, he wasn't facing financial pressures, didn't have any student loans, had a supportive family network and all the rest. If he had been in a more marginal position, that kind of decision could have resulted in real problems.
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 15, 2021, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: apl68 on April 15, 2021, 12:40:52 PM
I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.
Just in case others are having similar thoughts: Taking on financial aid debt is not a scam. apl68 seems to be inferring rampant scamming from a few isolated cases that are clustering together in a conversation on teaching frustrations. Slow down any rush to judgment.
The students are following the federal regulations and institutional policies as best they can while caught in family disruptions and deaths, illness, concussions, mental health crises, etc. that do not adhere to the limited academic term. I usually estimate about 20% of students in my classes each term are going to need accommodations, 5% or less are going to have extreme crises that require a close look at institutional policies and procedures and federal regulations. It's definitely higher with COVID.
Actually I was suspecting (hoping, anyway) that something like this was the case. In making my comment I was hoping to elicit a corrective response like this. Thank you.
I'm really hoping that a) these cases aren't as common as the comments on the threads sometimes make them seem and b) that most have more innocent explanations. Although the incidence of students' educations being disrupted by family problems, etc. does seem worryingly high.
I just had a student spend an hour and a half of his lab time working on the least important part of the final project - something that is only worth 3% of the project grade. I prompted him a few times, "Shouldn't you be working on [hard part that takes the most time]?" His answer was "Yeah, I'll get to that." This is the same student who continually asks things like, "What units should we use?" and I reply, "What does it say on the instructions?" I'm pretty sure he'll pass the class, but he'll spend the last lab of the semester next week panicking as to whether he's going to get done or not.
I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."
I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."
I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.
Another concern: I wouldn't talk to the student on the phone at all because there would be no record of the conversation. I would record a Zoom or do it through email.
My general experience with students who send "I don't understand anything about the assignment" emails is that they are fishing for future excuses ("I asked Dr. DSN to call me and help me but they refused!") or seeing if the instructor will complete half the work for them. I could easily be wrong, but I'd still want a record of my discussions with the student.
Quote from: fishbrains on April 21, 2021, 08:08:50 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."
I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.
Another concern: I wouldn't talk to the student on the phone at all because there would be no record of the conversation. I would record a Zoom or do it through email.
My general experience with students who send "I don't understand anything about the assignment" emails is that they are fishing for future excuses ("I asked Dr. DSN to call me and help me but they refused!") or seeing if the instructor will complete half the work for them. I could easily be wrong, but I'd still want a record of my discussions with the student.
+1 to this.
I had a student send me an email at 8pm on a Friday night asking me to send them a Zoom invite so we could meet right then. They seemed to think that because it was an online course that meant that I needed to be accessible all the time.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 21, 2021, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on April 21, 2021, 08:08:50 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."
I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.
Another concern: I wouldn't talk to the student on the phone at all because there would be no record of the conversation. I would record a Zoom or do it through email.
My general experience with students who send "I don't understand anything about the assignment" emails is that they are fishing for future excuses ("I asked Dr. DSN to call me and help me but they refused!") or seeing if the instructor will complete half the work for them. I could easily be wrong, but I'd still want a record of my discussions with the student.
+1 to this.
I had a student send me an email at 8pm on a Friday night asking me to send them a Zoom invite so we could meet right then. They seemed to think that because it was an online course that meant that I needed to be accessible all the time.
And that is why my syllabus includes my availability.
QuoteKnow how & when to contact your instructors. We are not "on call" 24/7. Plan accordingly.
and
QuoteStudents should contact Dr. Geneticist [email] using their official [campus] student email address. If you email during office hours, you will get a reply during office hours or soon after. If you email between 9:00am & 4:00pm Monday-Friday, you can expect to get a reply the same day. If you email at other times Monday-Friday, then you can expect a response within 24 hours. Dr. Geneticist does not answer emails over the weekends.
Has indenting paragraphs died? Because none of my students do it anymore. So everything looks like on giant run on blob. I'm here to mourn for the old school carriage return.
Based on some of my students' papers -- yes, indenting paragraphs is no more. I have continually commented on it and I finally had one student tell me he didn't know how to do that.
I've noticed a quite interesting--and, if I'm honest, logical--pattern in some of my students.
For paragraphs that belong in what we would call a subsection, they do a single return (and, sometimes, even indent). For paragraphs that span a larger topic shift, they do a double-return. Effectively they've intuited that certain topic shifts are bigger than other topic shifts, but they haven't been taught sections and subsections (and those would be silly in a 1200-word paper anyway), so they've invented a new way of signaling structure.
I mean, it's wrong, of course, but also at a more abstract, functional level, not wrong.
When I look at the online material students read, there are rarely indented paragraphs in it. Even when students access short stories and other academic material online, the preferred style seems to be adding an extra space between paragraphs instead of indenting for a new paragraph. The same goes for library database material when they research, packaged online material from "book" publishers, or, for that matter, even writing in online forums like this one).
First the young-uns stopped writing in cursive. Now they aren't indenting for paragraphs. Pretty soon these young whippersnappers won't know how to tan their own leather or fix a damn wagon-wheel! :)
Quote from: mythbuster on April 21, 2021, 12:22:55 PM
Has indenting paragraphs died? Because none of my students do it anymore. So everything looks like on giant run on blob. I'm here to mourn for the old school carriage return.
Block paragraph changes has been accepted style for over 20 years now. There should indeed be paragraphs when the main topic of the discussion changes, but indentions, while possible in MSWord, etc., are not accepted or expected style in written work now.
I know because when I indented something on a job I typed for someone over 20 years ago they yelled at me to get with the program...
(Sorry...)
M.
I long ago adapted to the double line space rather than indentation to signal paragraph changes. The problem now is that in some platforms, when I hit return to create a apace to indicate a new paragraph, whatever I've written is immediately published in text, or WhatsApp, or whatever. Drives me crazy.
And I just submitted the paperwork for "alleged academic misconduct" for a student who posted each and every single exam question on Chegg.
What the student doesn't know is that there are 8x more possible question combinations than students in the class. So, it wasn't hard to find them, even in a class of more than 500.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 21, 2021, 11:17:32 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 21, 2021, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on April 21, 2021, 08:08:50 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:38:35 AM
I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."
I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.
Another concern: I wouldn't talk to the student on the phone at all because there would be no record of the conversation. I would record a Zoom or do it through email.
My general experience with students who send "I don't understand anything about the assignment" emails is that they are fishing for future excuses ("I asked Dr. DSN to call me and help me but they refused!") or seeing if the instructor will complete half the work for them. I could easily be wrong, but I'd still want a record of my discussions with the student.
+1 to this.
I had a student send me an email at 8pm on a Friday night asking me to send them a Zoom invite so we could meet right then. They seemed to think that because it was an online course that meant that I needed to be accessible all the time.
And that is why my syllabus includes my availability.
QuoteKnow how & when to contact your instructors. We are not "on call" 24/7. Plan accordingly.
and
QuoteStudents should contact Dr. Geneticist [email] using their official [campus] student email address. If you email during office hours, you will get a reply during office hours or soon after. If you email between 9:00am & 4:00pm Monday-Friday, you can expect to get a reply the same day. If you email at other times Monday-Friday, then you can expect a response within 24 hours. Dr. Geneticist does not answer emails over the weekends.
I definitely need to work on my boundaries. My spouse thinks I am terrible at this. All of my evening optional zooms have had very low attendance, plus we have two different doctoral programs that have monthly evening meetings. I have 7 PM meetings two times a week it seems. I am so over it. My spouse told me I should not do evening optional zooms after this semester. I started doing them last summer during the pandemic because students were so disconnected from other humans. They were really successful in the summer but I suppose not so much in Fall or Spring, even when I featured guest speakers. I do answer emails on nights and weekends because most of my students are distance students and work full-time. I believe that if they are emailing me about an assignment, they are likely working on it then so I respond on nights and weekends.
However, in this student's case, hu wrote me tonight (24 hours after my response for more options) that hu is only free in the evenings so I need to let hu know when I can call hu when I am available in the evening. Hu still did not provide any specific questions about the assignment. Sigh.
Listen to your spouse!
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:55:32 PM
All of my evening optional zooms have had very low attendance,
Not trying to be snarky, but my immediate response on seeing this was, "How is this a surprise?????"
Students avoid "optional" things like the plague, and especially during non-class time.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2021, 04:12:52 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:55:32 PM
All of my evening optional zooms have had very low attendance,
Not trying to be snarky, but my immediate response on seeing this was, "How is this a surprise?????"
Students avoid "optional" things like the plague, and especially during non-class time.
Sometimes it's a feature, not a bug.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2021, 09:39:03 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2021, 04:12:52 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on April 21, 2021, 07:55:32 PM
All of my evening optional zooms have had very low attendance,
Not trying to be snarky, but my immediate response on seeing this was, "How is this a surprise?????"
Students avoid "optional" things like the plague, and especially during non-class time.
Sometimes it's a feature, not a bug.
Sure, but not something to sacrifice personal time and space to provide.
Dear graduate students (yes, multiple),
That assignment has been on the syllabus since day 1 of this semester, with the required components spelled out in the syllabus. I provided you with examples of the assignment. I gave you an opportunity to submit a draft for my feedback (Did you take me up on that? No?) Four weeks ago, I spent class time describing the assignment again, because so many of you were "confused." Complaining that "I don't know what you want" means that you have ignored all of the above. It is due next week. If you have not started the assignment, then, yes, you should be a little stressed. Frankly, if you don't know how to write a reasonable attempt as this assignment, you should not pass this class. Unfortunately, it is possible to pass this class if you fail this assignment--I will be remedying that next year.
Also, the TAs are on to you. They are not going to do it for you. I put the kabash on the type of "help" you were requesting.
See you at the final exam!
Dr. Year
.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 22, 2021, 07:02:03 PM
Dear graduate students (yes, multiple),
That assignment has been on the syllabus since day 1 of this semester, with the required components spelled out in the syllabus. I provided you with examples of the assignment. I gave you an opportunity to submit a draft for my feedback (Did you take me up on that? No?) Four weeks ago, I spent class time describing the assignment again, because so many of you were "confused." Complaining that "I don't know what you want" means that you have ignored all of the above. It is due next week. If you have not started the assignment, then, yes, you should be a little stressed. Frankly, if you don't know how to write a reasonable attempt as this assignment, you should not pass this class. Unfortunately, it is possible to pass this class if you fail this assignment--I will be remedying that next year.
Also, the TAs are on to you. They are not going to do it for you. I put the kabash on the type of "help" you were requesting.
See you at the final exam!
Dr. Year
.
This resonates with me very much right now.
Probably no mercy for grad students like this. One might ask how they got into grad school, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and grad/ professional ed is one of those somewheres.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 22, 2021, 10:07:00 PM
Probably no mercy for grad students like this. One might ask how they got into grad school, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and grad/ professional ed is one of those somewheres.
My department is pretty choosy about accepting PhD students, but we can't even choose which master's students to admit, because that happens at the College level. Master's students are an enormous revenue source, so TPTB don't want to turn them away.
It is regularly the case that our advanced undergrads are far more capable and diligent than our master's students.
Good Grief SENIORS! Read the damn directions!
Instruction: Assignment for Mock Interviews:
1. A current resume or CV
2. A job description for the position sought
3. A cover letter addressing the application.
4. One letter of recommendation from a recent supervisor or professor.
5.
Application components must be in PDF format and follow the naming convention of: [applicant's last name] – [name of document]. For example, a cover letter from Dwayne Johnson would be labeled: Johnson - Cover Letter.pdf.
Number of Students = 54
Number successful on 1st submission attempt: 44
Number not submitting ALL document: 4
Number not submitting in PDF: 6
Number leaving the brackets in the submitted file: 4
Number not submitting in PDF in 2nd attempt: 4
Number not including name in file submission: 3
Number not naming document in file submission:2
So ~ 20% of our graduating seniors would have failed at the very first step of job application. When I have to report job placement success, can I normalize the results in light of this fact?
We're multiple weeks into the term and missing student shows up to let me know they are ready to succeed in class, but are a little confused about where to start. Building a time machine would be a good start.
I use a grading contract and students are allowed to submit late work, although each number of weeks of late work drop them down a grade level, they also have to participate in weekly discussions and each week of missed discussions (with some grace built in) drops them down a grade level.
In addition to referencing that grading contract which identifies a C (the lowest passing grade for this class) as the best they can do at this point, I've mapped out a detailed list of all the work they must complete to even get to that point, including the project draft due next week with a reminder that I'm teaching the class again in Fall and the drop deadline is today and maybe they should focus on their personal burdens, which they cite in their email as the rationale for not coming to class.
Will they drop? No they will not.
Will there be more fun emails in my future? Yes there will.
Quote from: FishProf on April 23, 2021, 05:44:52 AM
Good Grief SENIORS! Read the damn directions!
Instruction: Assignment for Mock Interviews:
1. A current resume or CV
2. A job description for the position sought
3. A cover letter addressing the application.
4. One letter of recommendation from a recent supervisor or professor.
5.
Application components must be in PDF format and follow the naming convention of: [applicant's last name] – [name of document]. For example, a cover letter from Dwayne Johnson would be labeled: Johnson - Cover Letter.pdf.
Number of Students = 54
Number successful on 1st submission attempt: 44
Number not submitting ALL document: 4
Number not submitting in PDF: 6
Number leaving the brackets in the submitted file: 4
Number not submitting in PDF in 2nd attempt: 4
Number not including name in file submission: 3
Number not naming document in file submission:2
So ~ 20% of our graduating seniors would have failed at the very first step of job application. When I have to report job placement success, can I normalize the results in light of this fact?
Well, at least they're getting a final chance to see what they're doing wrong before they start having to try it for real.
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 23, 2021, 07:34:49 AM
We're multiple weeks into the term and missing student shows up to let me know they are ready to succeed in class, but are a little confused about where to start. Building a time machine would be a good start.
I wonder if anyone has ever researched the idea of a "
Virtual Sunk Cost Fallacy". So in a case like this, the person sees how long they have been "taking" a course as an investment, even if they haven't, in fact,
done much of anything yet.
Quote from: ergative on April 22, 2021, 11:07:58 PM
It is regularly the case that our advanced undergrads are far more capable and diligent than our master's students.
This is true for us as well, even though we do select our MA students and are reasonably selective about it, the best of our undergrads put many of the MA students to shame, and there is always at least one MA student who is a complete train reck every year-- I've got one in seminar now and it is an open question if she can squeeze through with the B- that is the lowest passing grade for grad students here. That said, the best of the masters students are equal to our beginning PhD students, so there is a wide range.
505 students in a class with a midterm exam.
501 took the exam
1 dropped the class
1 slept through the exam & emailed in a panic
1 claimed the exam was "invisible" and didn't take it (it was locked until the start time)
1 missing student who won't reply to emails
Honestly, that's kind of a victory, but still a bit annoying to mop up the outliers.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 23, 2021, 11:12:51 AM
505 students in a class with a midterm exam.
501 took the exam
1 dropped the class
1 slept through the exam & emailed in a panic
1 claimed the exam was "invisible" and didn't take it (it was locked until the start time)
1 missing student who won't reply to emails
Honestly, that's kind of a victory, but still a bit annoying to mop up the outliers.
That's INCREDIBLY impressive. I see similar numbers missing it in a class of 20.
Quote from: kiana on April 23, 2021, 11:22:45 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 23, 2021, 11:12:51 AM
505 students in a class with a midterm exam.
501 took the exam
1 dropped the class
1 slept through the exam & emailed in a panic
1 claimed the exam was "invisible" and didn't take it (it was locked until the start time)
1 missing student who won't reply to emails
Honestly, that's kind of a victory, but still a bit annoying to mop up the outliers.
That's INCREDIBLY impressive. I see similar numbers missing it in a class of 20.
Agreed, you have only 1 ghost student in a class of 505?! What is this magic?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2021, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 23, 2021, 07:34:49 AM
We're multiple weeks into the term and missing student shows up to let me know they are ready to succeed in class, but are a little confused about where to start. Building a time machine would be a good start.
I wonder if anyone has ever researched the idea of a "Virtual Sunk Cost Fallacy". So in a case like this, the person sees how long they have been "taking" a course as an investment, even if they haven't, in fact, done much of anything yet.
When I taught a first-year experience course, I use to ask my students if they would prepay for gas and drive off before filling their tank, or if they would buy a plane ticket and skip the flight. I tried to use those examples so they understand the "loss" of paying tuition and fees and then not trying to learn or participate in classes.
Quote from: FishProf on April 23, 2021, 05:44:52 AM
Good Grief SENIORS! Read the damn directions!
Instruction: Assignment for Mock Interviews:
1. A current resume or CV
2. A job description for the position sought
3. A cover letter addressing the application.
4. One letter of recommendation from a recent supervisor or professor.
5.
Application components must be in PDF format and follow the naming convention of: [applicant's last name] – [name of document]. For example, a cover letter from Dwayne Johnson would be labeled: Johnson - Cover Letter.pdf.
Number of Students = 54
Number successful on 1st submission attempt: 44
Number not submitting ALL document: 4
Number not submitting in PDF: 6
Number leaving the brackets in the submitted file: 4
Number not submitting in PDF in 2nd attempt: 4
Number not including name in file submission: 3
Number not naming document in file submission:2
So ~ 20% of our graduating seniors would have failed at the very first step of job application. When I have to report job placement success, can I normalize the results in light of this fact?
Perhaps follow up mock job apps with the students now being the employer and they are graded on following HR procedures. "Well team we had 54 applicants who opened the application but looks like we only have 54-n after we eliminate all of the incomplete and noncompliant applications." Then give a second chance to resubmit? That's the piece that will pretty much never exist in the work world.
There is a little search committee joy when you see an incomplete app and can trim down your workload (with regret that it might have been a great applicant). Maybe the role play will give them some practice with that perspective shift.
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 23, 2021, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: FishProf on April 23, 2021, 05:44:52 AM
Good Grief SENIORS! Read the damn directions!
Instruction: Assignment for Mock Interviews:
1. A current resume or CV
2. A job description for the position sought
3. A cover letter addressing the application.
4. One letter of recommendation from a recent supervisor or professor.
5.
Application components must be in PDF format and follow the naming convention of: [applicant's last name] – [name of document]. For example, a cover letter from Dwayne Johnson would be labeled: Johnson - Cover Letter.pdf.
Number of Students = 54
Number successful on 1st submission attempt: 44
Number not submitting ALL document: 4
Number not submitting in PDF: 6
Number leaving the brackets in the submitted file: 4
Number not submitting in PDF in 2nd attempt: 4
Number not including name in file submission: 3
Number not naming document in file submission:2
So ~ 20% of our graduating seniors would have failed at the very first step of job application. When I have to report job placement success, can I normalize the results in light of this fact?
Perhaps follow up mock job apps with the students now being the employer and they are graded on following HR procedures. "Well team we had 54 applicants who opened the application but looks like we only have 54-n after we eliminate all of the incomplete and noncompliant applications." Then give a second chance to resubmit? That's the piece that will pretty much never exist in the work world.
There is a little search committee joy when you see an incomplete app and can trim down your workload (with regret that it might have been a great applicant). Maybe the role play will give them some practice with that perspective shift.
I know that throwing out the complete no-hope applications is usually a quick way to cut our library's applicant pool down to size. Unfortunately that sometimes leaves us with little to go with in the interview stage.
I once sent the head of our local vo-tech school an analysis of our fifty most recent applicants--their education levels, work experience, etc. She told me that it helped to make the point that she had been making to community leaders about the need for more workforce development in our community. Our local pool of potential employees is broad but very, very shallow.
I know you guys see this all the time, but I just got my first-ever case of an author (of an academic article) being called 'the narrator'.
Quote from: robear on April 21, 2021, 03:56:30 PM
I long ago adapted to the double line space rather than indentation to signal paragraph changes. The problem now is that in some platforms, when I hit return to create a apace to indicate a new paragraph, whatever I've written is immediately published in text, or WhatsApp, or whatever. Drives me crazy.
In many platforms, one can hold down the shift key and press enter to create a line break without submitting prematurely.
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 24, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Yep. I once had a student not show up for the final exam (worth 20% of the course grade) because he already had a 92% average and didn't want to blow it. He wasn't so happy with that "C." [
sigh]
Quote from: fishbrains on April 24, 2021, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 24, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Yep. I once had a student not show up for the final exam (worth 20% of the course grade) because he already had a 92% average and didn't want to blow it. He wasn't so happy with that "C." [sigh]
I don't show their cumulative
average; I show their cumulative
grade. So it's easy to explain: "If you don't hand anything else in, this is the grade you'll get." At any point, everything they do will
raise their cumulative grade.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 23, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
I know you guys see this all the time, but I just got my first-ever case of an author (of an academic article) being called 'the narrator'.
At least they didn't call it a novel...
Students are often incredibly confused in intro level courses about academic articles. Weird things they do:
1. Call the author by their first name.
2. Assume the author is arguing for the thing they are writing about. "Stephanie really thinks it's terrible how everyone is drinking so much and wants it to stop." Well, no she's an academic writing about drinking habits in the first half of the 19th century.
The lab final states on EACH question AND on the page they click before starting that their work MUST be in the quiz and not submitted anywhere else.
Student emails me at 1:30 this morning with the work for the lab final. Why the hell do they do this?
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2021, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 23, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
I know you guys see this all the time, but I just got my first-ever case of an author (of an academic article) being called 'the narrator'.
At least they didn't call it a novel...
Students are often incredibly confused in intro level courses about academic articles. Weird things they do:
1. Call the author by their first name.
2. Assume the author is arguing for the thing they are writing about. "Stephanie really thinks it's terrible how everyone is drinking so much and wants it to stop." Well, no she's an academic writing about drinking habits in the first half of the 19th century.
Repeatedly, despite reminders to refer to authors/writers by their full name or last name.
Refer to short stories as novels. Course specifically and repeatedly refers to the former as "short stories". What these students were doing in their high school English classes is a mystery.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 25, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
The lab final states on EACH question AND on the page they click before starting that their work MUST be in the quiz and not submitted anywhere else.
Student emails me at 1:30 this morning with the work for the lab final. Why the hell do they do this?
Hah! You have no idea how my emails I get from students with their assignments attached. I got one a week ago despite repeated reminders of the policy on when and where to submit assignments. My standard reply is that the only place for assignments is the relevant assignment folder on Canvas. If I'm feeling kind-hearted, I open a folder for the student so that the student can submit their "late" assignment.
As to your question, these students are trained by their parents, teachers, and some of their professors that it never hurts to keep doing the same dumb thing. Some professors do accept emailed assignments.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 25, 2021, 06:25:56 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2021, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 23, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
I know you guys see this all the time, but I just got my first-ever case of an author (of an academic article) being called 'the narrator'.
At least they didn't call it a novel...
Students are often incredibly confused in intro level courses about academic articles. Weird things they do:
1. Call the author by their first name.
2. Assume the author is arguing for the thing they are writing about. "Stephanie really thinks it's terrible how everyone is drinking so much and wants it to stop." Well, no she's an academic writing about drinking habits in the first half of the 19th century.
Repeatedly, despite reminders to refer to authors/writers by their full name or last name.
Refer to short stories as novels. Course specifically and repeatedly refers to the former as "short stories". What these students were doing in their high school English classes is a mystery.
Probably same thing they are doing in their college classes, not paying much attention. I try to provide lots of signposts and contexts but there is a certain kind of student who just puts all readings in the category of "stuff I have to read for class" and never even considers what the hell they are reading.
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2021, 05:35:31 AM
Students are often incredibly confused in intro level courses about academic articles. Weird things they do:
1. Call the author by their first name.
2. Assume the author is arguing for the thing they are writing about. "Stephanie really thinks it's terrible how everyone is drinking so much and wants it to stop." Well, no she's an academic writing about drinking habits in the first half of the 19th century.
Yeah, mine do this all the time. I can count the number of students who
don't do (1) on the fingers of half a hand; in my case, I assume it's because their mother tongue has somewhat different conventions, but maybe that's too generous. (2) I chalk up to the same problem people have understanding that conditionals are conditional.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 25, 2021, 06:20:36 AM
The lab final states on EACH question AND on the page they click before starting that their work MUST be in the quiz and not submitted anywhere else.
Student emails me at 1:30 this morning with the work for the lab final. Why the hell do they do this?
I get so many emailed assignments. At this point I just reply with 'thank you, can you please submit it through the folder on Moodle?'
I really didn't think it would be this complicated. Oh how I underestimated my students. A 2nd student emailed me work because it was 'too difficult' to enter work in the quiz. Now, I'm not asking them to integrate anything, they just have to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Each problem states that they must enter their work in the quiz box. It's also on the first page of the quiz in capital letters and bolded. Maybe I'll grade their emailed submissions with a 20% penalty. What irks me is that they're trying to make up their own rules instead of following mine.
I do not accept emailed work. Period. First and foremost is that I don't want students claiming that they had emailed me a draft and were waiting for a response, so they should be allowed to submit work late. Second, I don't want to download material onto my computer - it should all remain in the LMS. If students cannot follow directions to upload work to the LMS, they receive the 0 that they have earned.
Students sometimes view my course policies as draconian. However, having regularlized course policies (no late work, all work submitted through the LMS, specific assignment-types due every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday, etc) is the only way to stay sane with large classes.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 25, 2021, 02:43:16 PM
I really didn't think it would be this complicated. Oh how I underestimated my students. A 2nd student emailed me work because it was 'too difficult' to enter work in the quiz. Now, I'm not asking them to integrate anything, they just have to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Each problem states that they must enter their work in the quiz box. It's also on the first page of the quiz in capital letters and bolded. Maybe I'll grade their emailed submissions with a 20% penalty. What irks me is that they're trying to make up their own rules instead of following mine.
I get
so many emails saying that the LMS wouldn't accept their essay so here it is.
The LMS wouldn't accept their essay
because it only accepts PDFs. I say so on the syllabus, on the assignment instructions, in class, and in bold caps right under the link to the folder.
It drives me nuts, too. But: shrug. You can only do so much!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 25, 2021, 03:05:17 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 25, 2021, 02:43:16 PM
I really didn't think it would be this complicated. Oh how I underestimated my students. A 2nd student emailed me work because it was 'too difficult' to enter work in the quiz. Now, I'm not asking them to integrate anything, they just have to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Each problem states that they must enter their work in the quiz box. It's also on the first page of the quiz in capital letters and bolded. Maybe I'll grade their emailed submissions with a 20% penalty. What irks me is that they're trying to make up their own rules instead of following mine.
I get so many emails saying that the LMS wouldn't accept their essay so here it is.
The LMS wouldn't accept their essay because it only accepts PDFs. I say so on the syllabus, on the assignment instructions, in class, and in bold caps right under the link to the folder.
It drives me nuts, too. But: shrug. You can only do so much!
Same! "Student, you're trying to upload a .zip folder filled with .heic files. That's why it won't work." "Student, the assignment is closed as it clearly says. That's why it won't work."
Or they just stick it in the comments on the assignment. Why the hell is there no option to disable student file attachmentS?!
That's another sort of issue that I sometimes find having a "Problem Solving" discussion forum on the LMS helps with. The students help each other out. I just tell them that they will get an email saying their assignment has been successfully submitted from the LMS when it is successfully submitted. They need to watch the help videos and go to the help desk if they have trouble. Or get help from other students. I am not the help facility.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 25, 2021, 03:05:17 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 25, 2021, 02:43:16 PM
I really didn't think it would be this complicated. Oh how I underestimated my students. A 2nd student emailed me work because it was 'too difficult' to enter work in the quiz. Now, I'm not asking them to integrate anything, they just have to add, subtract, multiply and divide. Each problem states that they must enter their work in the quiz box. It's also on the first page of the quiz in capital letters and bolded. Maybe I'll grade their emailed submissions with a 20% penalty. What irks me is that they're trying to make up their own rules instead of following mine.
I get so many emails saying that the LMS wouldn't accept their essay so here it is.
The LMS wouldn't accept their essay because it only accepts PDFs. I say so on the syllabus, on the assignment instructions, in class, and in bold caps right under the link to the folder.
It drives me nuts, too. But: shrug. You can only do so much!
Yep. Same. All lab assignment templates have required info at the top, but they still forget to include it. Tests have instructions in bold, capital letters. It's in the syllabus. It's in multiple places. It just boggles the mind when they don't follow directions.
Quote from: fishbrains on April 24, 2021, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 24, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Yep. I once had a student not show up for the final exam (worth 20% of the course grade) because he already had a 92% average and didn't want to blow it. He wasn't so happy with that "C." [sigh]
This is the only thing about Canvas that bugs the hell out of me. The course grading scale is in the syllabus. There are questions in the quiz on the syllabus about how the course grade is calculated. The Canvas gradebook shows the number of points earned, which is what determines the course grade. No matter how many times I tell students "any percentages you see in the gradebook are meaningless," they willfully remain ignorant.
I might have discovered a work around -- setting the point value in Canvas for every assignment as "0" but continue using rubrics in Speedgrader that generate points. Need to figure out for the fall semester if this destroys Canvas's default.
My homework is due, uploaded before class, each week. We are now almost finished with the semester. It's a pretty standard routine by now.
A student is claiming he needs an extension because the Canvas app didn't notify him that the homework was due.
Quote from: spork on April 25, 2021, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: fishbrains on April 24, 2021, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 24, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Yep. I once had a student not show up for the final exam (worth 20% of the course grade) because he already had a 92% average and didn't want to blow it. He wasn't so happy with that "C." [sigh]
This is the only thing about Canvas that bugs the hell out of me. The course grading scale is in the syllabus. There are questions in the quiz on the syllabus about how the course grade is calculated. The Canvas gradebook shows the number of points earned, which is what determines the course grade. No matter how many times I tell students "any percentages you see in the gradebook are meaningless," they willfully remain ignorant.
I might have discovered a work around -- setting the point value in Canvas for every assignment as "0" but continue using rubrics in Speedgrader that generate points. Need to figure out for the fall semester if this destroys Canvas's default.
I turn off the Canvas total grade as it does bizarre meaningless things. I use a straight point scale. They can look in the Grades and see the list of assignments, their Score, and how many points it was Out of <those are the Canvas column titles>. When students freak out about not knowing their grade I would get super exasperated at what I thought was math avoidance. Ok, some is still that. Some is wanting a quick answer when they look at the mobile app. But most of the time it's just that they didn't realize I'm using a regular cumulative point scale. They think I have some more complicated percentages system. Of course it's in the syllabus but in the middle of the term when they are staring at the mobile app and it shows a grade for three classes and N/A for mine, I get it, they aren't thinking about navigating through however many clicks to get to the syllabus.
Quote from: spork on April 25, 2021, 04:22:47 PM
I might have discovered a work around -- setting the point value in Canvas for every assignment as "0" but continue using rubrics in Speedgrader that generate points. Need to figure out for the fall semester if this destroys Canvas's default.
"Treat all unassigned grades as 0" is an option in our LMS; I just can't figure out if or how I can have that the default for all of my courses. That's general frustration I have - I'd really like to have all kinds of defaults like that that would automatically get used for any courses created for me, or that I could globally copy from others.
Not exactly teaching, but it seems to go here. I'm once again in charge ("since you did such a nice job with it last year"-- that will teach me!) of putting together the giant powerpoint for our online department diploma ceremony (100+ grads).
So I send out an email with a google form link for them to provide their preferred name, pronunciation guide, and upload their photo. Both email and form specify the required dimensions of said photo.
I'd say only about a third of students have uploaded a photo in anything like the correct dimensions, so I've been spending lots of time I don't have cropping and resizing them.
About 25 students did not respond at by the deadline, and I have to try to track them down to give them one last chance.
Another three emailed saying they didn't have permission to access the form and I had to give them directions for switching from their personal to campus google accounts, which after FOUR YEARS of having to be logged into their campus account for nearly everything I just don't comprehend.
You are graduating seniors, follow the freaking directions!
Quote from: teach_write_research on April 25, 2021, 08:46:31 PM
Quote from: spork on April 25, 2021, 04:22:47 PM
Quote from: fishbrains on April 24, 2021, 06:35:57 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 24, 2021, 05:30:02 PM
I think I give up on allowing students to see their cumulative score to date. Too few understand what they're seeing or how the math works.
Yep. I once had a student not show up for the final exam (worth 20% of the course grade) because he already had a 92% average and didn't want to blow it. He wasn't so happy with that "C." [sigh]
This is the only thing about Canvas that bugs the hell out of me. The course grading scale is in the syllabus. There are questions in the quiz on the syllabus about how the course grade is calculated. The Canvas gradebook shows the number of points earned, which is what determines the course grade. No matter how many times I tell students "any percentages you see in the gradebook are meaningless," they willfully remain ignorant.
I might have discovered a work around -- setting the point value in Canvas for every assignment as "0" but continue using rubrics in Speedgrader that generate points. Need to figure out for the fall semester if this destroys Canvas's default.
I turn off the Canvas total grade as it does bizarre meaningless things. I use a straight point scale. They can look in the Grades and see the list of assignments, their Score, and how many points it was Out of <those are the Canvas column titles>. When students freak out about not knowing their grade I would get super exasperated at what I thought was math avoidance. Ok, some is still that. Some is wanting a quick answer when they look at the mobile app. But most of the time it's just that they didn't realize I'm using a regular cumulative point scale. They think I have some more complicated percentages system. Of course it's in the syllabus but in the middle of the term when they are staring at the mobile app and it shows a grade for three classes and N/A for mine, I get it, they aren't thinking about navigating through however many clicks to get to the syllabus.
I use a straight point scale also. And on my end, I set the gradebook's right-most column to "display as points." But students don't pay attention to that; they fixate on information in the adjacent Assignments column, which shows a percentage. I would really like to render that percentage invisible to students but as far as I know it's not an option.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 25, 2021, 06:25:56 AM
Quote from: Caracal on April 25, 2021, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 23, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
I know you guys see this all the time, but I just got my first-ever case of an author (of an academic article) being called 'the narrator'.
At least they didn't call it a novel...
Students are often incredibly confused in intro level courses about academic articles. Weird things they do:
1. Call the author by their first name.
2. Assume the author is arguing for the thing they are writing about. "Stephanie really thinks it's terrible how everyone is drinking so much and wants it to stop." Well, no she's an academic writing about drinking habits in the first half of the 19th century.
Repeatedly, despite reminders to refer to authors/writers by their full name or last name.
Refer to short stories as novels. Course specifically and repeatedly refers to the former as "short stories". What these students were doing in their high school English classes is a mystery.
Their high school English teachers may have been just as puzzled by those students.
I just spent 45 minutes replying to emails that came in over the weekend, every single one of which contained questions that were answered with some version "refer to the assignment instructions..." and "refer to page X of the syllabus..."
Quote from: Puget on April 26, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Not exactly teaching, but it seems to go here. I'm once again in charge ("since you did such a nice job with it last year"-- that will teach me!) of putting together the giant powerpoint for our online department diploma ceremony (100+ grads).
So I send out an email with a google form link for them to provide their preferred name, pronunciation guide, and upload their photo. Both email and form specify the required dimensions of said photo.
I'd say only about a third of students have uploaded a photo in anything like the correct dimensions, so I've been spending lots of time I don't have cropping and resizing them.
About 25 students did not respond at by the deadline, and I have to try to track them down to give them one last chance.
Another three emailed saying they didn't have permission to access the form and I had to give them directions for switching from their personal to campus google accounts, which after FOUR YEARS of having to be logged into their campus account for nearly everything I just don't comprehend.
You are graduating seniors, follow the freaking directions!
Forget the photos. Just create a list of names. No photos in the presentation because students didn't follow directions. Same for those who don't respond at all -- not included in the list. Or maybe next to an asterisk: "*did not respond"
Quote from: spork on April 26, 2021, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 26, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Not exactly teaching, but it seems to go here. I'm once again in charge ("since you did such a nice job with it last year"-- that will teach me!) of putting together the giant powerpoint for our online department diploma ceremony (100+ grads).
So I send out an email with a google form link for them to provide their preferred name, pronunciation guide, and upload their photo. Both email and form specify the required dimensions of said photo.
I'd say only about a third of students have uploaded a photo in anything like the correct dimensions, so I've been spending lots of time I don't have cropping and resizing them.
About 25 students did not respond at by the deadline, and I have to try to track them down to give them one last chance.
Another three emailed saying they didn't have permission to access the form and I had to give them directions for switching from their personal to campus google accounts, which after FOUR YEARS of having to be logged into their campus account for nearly everything I just don't comprehend.
You are graduating seniors, follow the freaking directions!
Forget the photos. Just create a list of names. No photos in the presentation because students didn't follow directions. Same for those who don't respond at all -- not included in the list. Or maybe next to an asterisk: "*did not respond"
Or swap in a picture of the school mascot for the missing student pictures.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 26, 2021, 09:33:28 AM
Quote from: spork on April 26, 2021, 08:47:19 AM
Quote from: Puget on April 26, 2021, 06:13:08 AM
Not exactly teaching, but it seems to go here. I'm once again in charge ("since you did such a nice job with it last year"-- that will teach me!) of putting together the giant powerpoint for our online department diploma ceremony (100+ grads).
So I send out an email with a google form link for them to provide their preferred name, pronunciation guide, and upload their photo. Both email and form specify the required dimensions of said photo.
I'd say only about a third of students have uploaded a photo in anything like the correct dimensions, so I've been spending lots of time I don't have cropping and resizing them.
About 25 students did not respond at by the deadline, and I have to try to track them down to give them one last chance.
Another three emailed saying they didn't have permission to access the form and I had to give them directions for switching from their personal to campus google accounts, which after FOUR YEARS of having to be logged into their campus account for nearly everything I just don't comprehend.
You are graduating seniors, follow the freaking directions!
Forget the photos. Just create a list of names. No photos in the presentation because students didn't follow directions. Same for those who don't respond at all -- not included in the list. Or maybe next to an asterisk: "*did not respond"
Or swap in a picture of the school mascot for the missing student pictures.
Their picture gets replaced with the university seal if they don't submit one. I can't mess with anything--all departments have to use the exact template.
I caught yet another student posting questions from the exam of Chegg DURING their exam. Even with cheating, they barely passed the exam. Now, they are going to fail the course.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 26, 2021, 03:53:36 PM
I caught yet another student posting questions from the exam of Chegg DURING their exam. Even with cheating, they barely passed the exam. Now, they are going to fail the course.
I see this as too light a punishment. Is there a process that can lead to expulsion?
I've forgotten, does Chegg pay them?
(If not, what in the world would the motivation be, to do this kind of thing?)
M.
Quote from: mamselle on April 26, 2021, 04:47:22 PM
I've forgotten, does Chegg pay them?
(If not, what in the world would the motivation be, to do this kind of thing?)
M.
Students have to pay to have a Chegg account. They see it as a "study help" site.
I see it as a copywriter violation and cheating site.
Why? To get answers for free. Some students claim they just wanted to "double check" or "see if there is a better way to say it".
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 26, 2021, 03:53:36 PM
I caught yet another student posting questions from the exam of Chegg DURING their exam. Even with cheating, they barely passed the exam. Now, they are going to fail the course.
I had this issue too, back when the pandemic started and we were not allowed to require webcams and proctoring (don't ask). It's frustrating to say the least and generates mounds of paperwork and lost time. Sorry you're dealing with it.
Two more students emailed me their work instead of following the directions and putting it in the quiz. So, these students have created more work for me. I swear, I'm just going to make a multiple choice final and be done with it.
We should get a forum Chegg account so we can all check without paying them individually.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2021, 07:59:31 PM
Two more students emailed me their work instead of following the directions and putting it in the quiz. So, these students have created more work for me. I swear, I'm just going to make a multiple choice final and be done with it.
I have a student who has gone to the Dean b/c I will NOT accept their work via email (and with the wrong name and the wrong format). They are stubbornly refusing to use the CMS to submit the work. I cannot wrap my head around this. They have now tried 5 times.
Each time, they get back "Please submit on Blackboard using the link HERE (under assignments tab) . Use the submission guidelines in the syllabus (HERE). Emailed assignments are NOT accepted".
Could it be that they don't want their work run through a plagiarism checker?
Quote from: FishProf on April 27, 2021, 03:58:08 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2021, 07:59:31 PM
Two more students emailed me their work instead of following the directions and putting it in the quiz. So, these students have created more work for me. I swear, I'm just going to make a multiple choice final and be done with it.
I have a student who has gone to the Dean b/c I will NOT accept their work via email (and with the wrong name and the wrong format). They are stubbornly refusing to use the CMS to submit the work. I cannot wrap my head around this. They have now tried 5 times.
Each time, they get back "Please submit on Blackboard using the link HERE (under assignments tab) . Use the submission guidelines in the syllabus (HERE). Emailed assignments are NOT accepted".
Could it be that they don't want their work run through a plagiarism checker?
Some professors accept emailed assignments, so the students think that you're the exception to the norm and a meanie if you ask them to follow the course guidelines. I once had a student who would refuse to bring the printout of her assignments for peer review claiming that she had the assignment on her laptop and that other professors allowed her to bring her laptop. I had to remind her that her assignment could be peer-reviewed only if the reviewer had a physical copy.
Quote from: FishProf on April 27, 2021, 03:58:08 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2021, 07:59:31 PM
Two more students emailed me their work instead of following the directions and putting it in the quiz. So, these students have created more work for me. I swear, I'm just going to make a multiple choice final and be done with it.
I have a student who has gone to the Dean b/c I will NOT accept their work via email (and with the wrong name and the wrong format). They are stubbornly refusing to use the CMS to submit the work. I cannot wrap my head around this. They have now tried 5 times.
Each time, they get back "Please submit on Blackboard using the link HERE (under assignments tab) . Use the submission guidelines in the syllabus (HERE). Emailed assignments are NOT accepted".
Could it be that they don't want their work run through a plagiarism checker?
So annoying. In my case, this is a test and there is simple Math involved. I don't know what they do in the time between submitting the quiz and emailing me their work.
I'm banging my head due to my own decision making. In one of my "hard" courses, students were decidedly not pleased that we were teaching it online this Spring and the anxiety and downright hostility was palpable. So, we made some adjustments prior to the semester and built in opportunities to improve performance if initial assignments were not passing, increased the weight of smaller assignments & reduced the weight of exams, and, against my better judgement, created opportunities for "extra" points. Students still complained up the chain about how "unreasonable" we were being. Now, as we are nearing the end, it appears we have overcorrected, and students who really should not pass are going to pass the course based on their point total. So, we are going to send them off to the next stage, when we really should not. The only positive is that we won't have the amount of grade appeals we were predicting.
QuoteI once had a student who would refuse to bring the printout of her assignments for peer review claiming that she had the assignment on her laptop and that other professors allowed her to bring her laptop. I had to remind her that her assignment could be peer-reviewed only if the reviewer had a physical copy.
Pre-Covid/in person: When my students brought the assignment on their devices for peer review, they had to pass their device around and have a variety of people use it. Some really didn't care; others brought paper versions the next time.
OneMoreYear, I had a similar overcorrection in one of my courses. I had anticipated widespread issues with attending the Zoom sessions that just never happened. I had built in so many "slush points" for my in class activities that almost everyone ended up with 100% in that category
Now I find it telling that none of my students had done the math to figure out when they could STOP doing the assignments since they had already accumulated the 100 points. So I should stop worrying so much about students "gaming the system" in that regard.
My advice, just let it go. This entire year is not one to hold up as a model of anything other than muddling through.
Quote from: mythbuster on April 27, 2021, 09:01:09 AM
OneMoreYear, I had a similar overcorrection in one of my courses. I had anticipated widespread issues with attending the Zoom sessions that just never happened. I had built in so many "slush points" for my in class activities that almost everyone ended up with 100% in that category
Now I find it telling that none of my students had done the math to figure out when they could STOP doing the assignments since they had already accumulated the 100 points. So I should stop worrying so much about students "gaming the system" in that regard.
My advice, just let it go. This entire year is not one to hold up as a model of anything other than muddling through.
I did something similar. Too many bailouts, and a lot of people getting higher grades than usual. However, also a lot of straight F, around the number that I would get for fully online courses.
Quote from: FishProf on April 27, 2021, 03:58:08 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2021, 07:59:31 PM
Two more students emailed me their work instead of following the directions and putting it in the quiz. So, these students have created more work for me. I swear, I'm just going to make a multiple choice final and be done with it.
I have a student who has gone to the Dean b/c I will NOT accept their work via email (and with the wrong name and the wrong format). They are stubbornly refusing to use the CMS to submit the work. I cannot wrap my head around this. They have now tried 5 times.
Each time, they get back "Please submit on Blackboard using the link HERE (under assignments tab) . Use the submission guidelines in the syllabus (HERE). Emailed assignments are NOT accepted".
Could it be that they don't want their work run through a plagiarism checker?
Yes. This is how I caught my last cheater. They were quite surprised I was able to upload their emailed essay into Turnitin from my computer and get the same report (85% copied in this case).
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 27, 2021, 05:59:48 AM
Some professors accept emailed assignments, so the students think that you're the exception to the norm and a meanie if you ask them to follow the course guidelines.
I am a meanie in that regard. But this is a departmental policy (although not universally applied).
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 27, 2021, 05:59:48 AM
I once had a student who would refuse to bring the printout of her assignments for peer review claiming that she had the assignment on her laptop and that other professors allowed her to bring her laptop.
Snowflakery, at its finest.
Not despair, just puzzlememt:
I just marked an essay in which a student cited me a few times. Sure, fine. Except that I've never written anything on the subject, certainly not with that title, and not in that German journal. I do have one publication in that journal, but it's on a completely different topic (e.g. it's on Moctezuma's baskets, whereas the course--and the cited title--pertains to haute couture). Nor do I recall saying any of the things attributed to me.
Weirdly, all of the other citations appear to be perfectly appropriate and legitimate. So what's with this made-up one? *scratches head*
Quote from: Morden on April 27, 2021, 08:36:08 AM
QuoteI once had a student who would refuse to bring the printout of her assignments for peer review claiming that she had the assignment on her laptop and that other professors allowed her to bring her laptop. I had to remind her that her assignment could be peer-reviewed only if the reviewer had a physical copy.
Pre-Covid/in person: When my students brought the assignment on their devices for peer review, they had to pass their device around and have a variety of people use it. Some really didn't care; others brought paper versions the next time.
Mine get points for bringing
two printed-out copies of their essays for peer review. Then everyone does two peer reviews each and I glance over the first round of peer reviews, especially citation and grammar feedback, and check off strong recommendations and cross out responses with which I disagree. Bringing a computer would make this impossible.
. . .
Today I'm grading research essays. Students can choose from five general topics and then have to narrow down their chosen topics to a specific issue. Ten chose a topic that can veer towards a debate over the right to privacy, and half of these are writing about this narrower problem, which is fine. All five frequently allude to the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution, but have, instead of quoting or discussing the actual Amendment (~50 words?), chosen to quote and incorporate philosophical scholarly articles about the amendment, some of which are 40+ pages long and clearly well over the students' heads. Sigh.
In happy news, I have fewer than 200 essays left to grade this semester. Haven't run the actual count in a while.
AR.
We had finals last week. The University deadline to submit final grades is Tuesday at 10am. I inform students when I posted final grades on Sunday that if they had an issue the HAD to contact me before Tuesday at 10am. I even had a Zoom hour on Monday just in case.
Now, Tuesday at 4pm I get emails from both D students and another who really wants an A-. The A- I can blow off. But the D's I will be expected to at least meet with. I HATE this part of the job.
I had our conduct folks request a "user" report from Chegg to determine who posted (or viewed) exam questions on Chegg. Importantly, it includes the day, time, and IP address for all users.
I identified the student who posted the questions (already suspected, but this confirms it).
And learned about an additional group of students who looked at the questions & answers while they were taking the exam.
I'm off to file another round of misconduct reports.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
I feel like telling the students that time I have to spend dealing with this means less time for me to make their labs more fun & interesting. It takes time to create content. I can do the "bare facts, good enough" version, but I like to include material that they ask about or current events or new case studies.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 28, 2021, 04:50:14 PM
I had our conduct folks request a "user" report from Chegg to determine who posted (or viewed) exam questions on Chegg. Importantly, it includes the day, time, and IP address for all users.
I identified the student who posted the questions (already suspected, but this confirms it).
And learned about an additional group of students who looked at the questions & answers while they were taking the exam.
I'm off to file another round of misconduct reports.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
I feel like telling the students that time I have to spend dealing with this means less time for me to make their labs more fun & interesting. It takes time to create content. I can do the "bare facts, good enough" version, but I like to include material that they ask about or current events or new case studies.
So tired of this. I've filed more misconduct reports this year than in all the years I've been teaching previously.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 28, 2021, 04:50:14 PM
I had our conduct folks request a "user" report from Chegg to determine who posted (or viewed) exam questions on Chegg. Importantly, it includes the day, time, and IP address for all users.
I identified the student who posted the questions (already suspected, but this confirms it).
And learned about an additional group of students who looked at the questions & answers while they were taking the exam.
I'm off to file another round of misconduct reports.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
I feel like telling the students that time I have to spend dealing with this means less time for me to make their labs more fun & interesting. It takes time to create content. I can do the "bare facts, good enough" version, but I like to include material that they ask about or current events or new case studies.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just state (point blank), that if you post questions on Chegg, you will be caught and you will get a zero? I mean, I do have statements similar to this in my syllabus, but I don't mention specific websites.
It is a pain in the ass and I'm sorry you're dealing with it. I had to create new content after my questions were posted on Chegg, so I am familiar with what you're going through.
This is a vent. Skip if you need to:
Damn it, grad student! Why did you do this to yourself?! You needed a C on this final paper to pass this class, so basically, you needed to turn in something not awful, and you would have passed. Now, you have plagiarized in the stupidest way possible, and you are going to fail the course and possibly get booted from the program because you did not bother to write 5 pages in your own words. Any what is the name of all things holy made you think I would not notice? I gave you the frakkin example that you plagiarized from! I know I am entirely burnt out and dealing with long-term brain fog from covid effects, but even in my current state, I am still not that clueless.
That's the kind of case Pry used to describe as "flunking cheating."
M.
For just one class, I'd like to try telling everyone that I will accede to all their grade-grubbing and quiz and exam retaking demands (because it's their last semester!)--on the condition that I will publicly post their request on the LMS for everyone to see. I know I can't, though.
I think that what I will do, henceforth, is anonymize and save the requests in a file, and read them out loud to my classes and ask what they think I should have done. Should be a fun case study for my ethics classes. Perhaps when they see te sheer volume of grubbing, they'll think twice about doing it themselves.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 28, 2021, 09:43:44 PM
For just one class, I'd like to try telling everyone that I will accede to all their grade-grubbing and quiz and exam retaking demands (because it's their last semester!)--on the condition that I will publicly post their request on the LMS for everyone to see. I know I can't, though.
I think that what I will do, henceforth, is anonymize and save the requests in a file, and read them out loud to my classes and ask what they think I should have done. Should be a fun case study for my ethics classes. Perhaps when they see te sheer volume of grubbing, they'll think twice about doing it themselves.
What's the over/under on this experiment increasing the flow instead? ("People can do that? I should, too!)
I'm going with the over.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 29, 2021, 04:56:54 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 28, 2021, 09:43:44 PM
For just one class, I'd like to try telling everyone that I will accede to all their grade-grubbing and quiz and exam retaking demands (because it's their last semester!)--on the condition that I will publicly post their request on the LMS for everyone to see. I know I can't, though.
I think that what I will do, henceforth, is anonymize and save the requests in a file, and read them out loud to my classes and ask what they think I should have done. Should be a fun case study for my ethics classes. Perhaps when they see te sheer volume of grubbing, they'll think twice about doing it themselves.
What's the over/under on this experiment increasing the flow instead? ("People can do that? I should, too!)
I'm going with the over.
That was my immediate thought too. Put my money with yours.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 28, 2021, 09:43:44 PM
For just one class, I'd like to try telling everyone that I will accede to all their grade-grubbing and quiz and exam retaking demands (because it's their last semester!)--on the condition that I will publicly post their request on the LMS for everyone to see. I know I can't, though.
The problem I see with this is that students who ask for one exception often don't stop at one. So you'd get:
1) Dear Prof, my life is so hard and I forgot the quiz; can I pleeeeease have extra time.
2) Dear Prof, I didn't see your email and I missed the window you gave me but I can take it tonight (sent at 11 pm Monday night)
3) Dear Prof, I can't take it on Tuesdays because I work. Can I take it tomorrow instead?
4) Dear Prof, I took the quiz but it says I failed but I know I put the rite answer for question 4. Can you fix this, please?
5) Dear Prof, as you know, I couldn't take last week's quiz until Wednesday, so I didn't have any time to study for today's quiz. Could I please take it next week instead?
Giving extra time on no. 1 doesn't take much time. Dealing with the full sequence (x even half your students) gets exhausting.
AR.
Quote from: mamselle on April 28, 2021, 07:56:13 PM
That's the kind of case Pry used to describe as "flunking cheating."
M.
Oh, yeah, definitely. Although, as it was so easy to find, it did not take hours of searching the interwebs to locate the source and document the similarities.
The count is now 2. One with egregious plagiarism that prompted the original vent, and one with "minor" plagiarism that will probably result in a failure of the assignment, but still an opportunity to pass the course (yes, I know, at the graduate level, that is too mild a consequence, but we work within the system we've got). The 2nd one also plagiarized from the example.
So the student who has now missed a third of our figure drawing classes this semester wants to know if they can make up the work by drawing their boyfriend. Student tells me that the boyfriend is totally willing to pose nude so isn't that just as good as working from the nude model in class?
I let the student know, that as per our syllabus, I do not accept work done outside of the classroom as part of their portfolio. Yeesh.
Quote from: dr_codex on April 29, 2021, 04:56:54 AM
What's the over/under on this experiment increasing the flow instead? ("People can do that? I should, too!)
I'm going with the over.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2021, 05:38:51 AM
That was my immediate thought too. Put my money with yours.
Quote from: AvidReader on April 29, 2021, 05:52:02 AM
The problem I see with this is that students who ask for one exception often don't stop at one. So you'd get:
1) Dear Prof, my life is so hard and I forgot the quiz; can I pleeeeease have extra time.
2) Dear Prof, I didn't see your email and I missed the window you gave me but I can take it tonight (sent at 11 pm Monday night)
3) Dear Prof, I can't take it on Tuesdays because I work. Can I take it tomorrow instead?
4) Dear Prof, I took the quiz but it says I failed but I know I put the rite answer for question 4. Can you fix this, please?
5) Dear Prof, as you know, I couldn't take last week's quiz until Wednesday, so I didn't have any time to study for today's quiz. Could I please take it next week instead?
Giving extra time on no. 1 doesn't take much time. Dealing with the full sequence (x even half your students) gets exhausting.
AR.
It might. I'd still like to experiment with the shaming, however.
After a night's sleep, I still think it's a good idea to show them a semester's worth of anonymized grubbing, so I'll start collecting the emails. (Which, FTR, literally say things like 'Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease'. Ugh.)
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 29, 2021, 08:03:53 AM
So the student who has now missed a third of our figure drawing classes this semester wants to know if they can make up the work by drawing their boyfriend. Student tells me that the boyfriend is totally willing to pose nude so isn't that just as good as working from the nude model in class?
I let the student know, that as per our syllabus, I do not accept work done outside of the classroom as part of their portfolio. Yeesh.
I can see how maybe trying to cover the life-drawing requirement with some random unauthorized nude person could potentially create...issues.
Quote from: apl68 on April 29, 2021, 09:38:02 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on April 29, 2021, 08:03:53 AM
So the student who has now missed a third of our figure drawing classes this semester wants to know if they can make up the work by drawing their boyfriend. Student tells me that the boyfriend is totally willing to pose nude so isn't that just as good as working from the nude model in class?
I let the student know, that as per our syllabus, I do not accept work done outside of the classroom as part of their portfolio. Yeesh.
I can see how maybe trying to cover the life-drawing requirement with some random unauthorized nude person could potentially create...issues.
The mind boggles at the possibilities.
I said in the syllabus, and explained on the first day of class, that students needed to earn 50 quiz points throughout the semester. If students earn fewer, their quiz grade will be calculated as a percentage out of 50. This is also stated in the syllabus. There's a column in our CMS that has a total number of quiz points. Okay, I didn't name the column "Total number of quiz points." I just called it "Quiz points." It seemed pretty clear to me, though.
Now a student is upset because quizzes are 15% of the grade. When he saw that the "Quiz points" column had reached 15, he decided he was done and stopped taking quizzes. Today he was looking at the syllabus and realized his error. No, I will not let him go back and take half a semester's worth of quizzes right now.
Quote from: kiana on April 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 28, 2021, 04:50:14 PM
I had our conduct folks request a "user" report from Chegg to determine who posted (or viewed) exam questions on Chegg. Importantly, it includes the day, time, and IP address for all users.
I identified the student who posted the questions (already suspected, but this confirms it).
And learned about an additional group of students who looked at the questions & answers while they were taking the exam.
I'm off to file another round of misconduct reports.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
I feel like telling the students that time I have to spend dealing with this means less time for me to make their labs more fun & interesting. It takes time to create content. I can do the "bare facts, good enough" version, but I like to include material that they ask about or current events or new case studies.
So tired of this. I've filed more misconduct reports this year than in all the years I've been teaching previously.
Same here. I've done 2 today and have 4 more waiting.
We have to contact the student and give them time to respond BEFORE we can file the reports. I've just pre-filled the forms so they are ready to go either when I hear back from the student or when the waiting time is up.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 29, 2021, 06:53:08 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 28, 2021, 07:56:13 PM
That's the kind of case Pry used to describe as "flunking cheating."
M.
Oh, yeah, definitely. Although, as it was so easy to find, it did not take hours of searching the interwebs to locate the source and document the similarities.
The count is now 2. One with egregious plagiarism that prompted the original vent, and one with "minor" plagiarism that will probably result in a failure of the assignment, but still an opportunity to pass the course (yes, I know, at the graduate level, that is too mild a consequence, but we work within the system we've got). The 2nd one also plagiarized from the example.
OMG! Another one with egregious copying from an example. I think I just need to stop grading. If I don't find the plagiarism, then nobody plagiarized, right?
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:07:31 PM
Quote from: kiana on April 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM
So tired of this. I've filed more misconduct reports this year than in all the years I've been teaching previously.
Same here. I've done 2 today and have 4 more waiting.
We have to contact the student and give them time to respond BEFORE we can file the reports. I've just pre-filled the forms so they are ready to go either when I hear back from the student or when the waiting time is up.
The part that really pisses me off is the indignant liars. Sure Johnny, tell me how you learned all about derivatives when you're in remedial algebra because you haven't taken a math class in 20 years.
Quote from: kiana on April 29, 2021, 05:51:40 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:07:31 PM
Quote from: kiana on April 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM
So tired of this. I've filed more misconduct reports this year than in all the years I've been teaching previously.
Same here. I've done 2 today and have 4 more waiting.
We have to contact the student and give them time to respond BEFORE we can file the reports. I've just pre-filled the forms so they are ready to go either when I hear back from the student or when the waiting time is up.
The part that really pisses me off is the indignant liars. Sure Johnny, tell me how you learned all about derivatives when you're in remedial algebra because you haven't taken a math class in 20 years.
Yep. What's that 'S-shaped symbol mean?' That was an actual question in one of my Calc-based Physics lecture. The Registrar lets anyone in.
One student wrote in their end-of-semester reflection that they didn't realize a class with [subtype of baskets] in the title would be about Basket-Weaving.
These are going to be interesting evaluations. In a small class, about 1/2 took the class because they were actually interested in the sub-topic and about 1/2 took it because it was the only available option to fill the last requirement for their major.
Quote from: statsgeek on April 30, 2021, 05:03:25 AM
One student wrote in their end-of-semester reflection that they didn't realize a class with [subtype of baskets] in the title would be about Basket-Weaving.
These are going to be interesting evaluations. In a small class, about 1/2 took the class because they were actually interested in the sub-topic and about 1/2 took it because it was the only available option to fill the last requirement for their major.
I see a bimodal grade distribution in your future....
Quote from: kiana on April 29, 2021, 05:51:40 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 29, 2021, 03:07:31 PM
Quote from: kiana on April 28, 2021, 04:56:00 PM
So tired of this. I've filed more misconduct reports this year than in all the years I've been teaching previously.
Same here. I've done 2 today and have 4 more waiting.
We have to contact the student and give them time to respond BEFORE we can file the reports. I've just pre-filled the forms so they are ready to go either when I hear back from the student or when the waiting time is up.
The part that really pisses me off is the indignant liars. Sure Johnny, tell me how you learned all about derivatives when you're in remedial algebra because you haven't taken a math class in 20 years.
Oh I do enjoy those students. I handle the first level student grievances and I just got brought in on a dispute where the student clearly plagiarized a paper that was well beyond their understanding of the subject matter. Instead of shutting up and taking the "0" (first offense) the student in question decided to grab themselves a shovel and start digging. You see, the student took band in middle school, so they definitely knew what they are talking about. How dare the instructor, who has a Doctorate in music theory, call them a liar and impugn their character.
Unfortunately for the student they have been obnoxious enough in their replies that they are now being referred to the office of civility for possible disciplinary actions. No, no, dig up stupid!
Oh my dear sweet Lord! Some of these final exam answers are painful to read. One student tried to calculate the range of a projectile using the volume equation for a cylinder. Stu thought that the radius was the range.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 01, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
Oh my dear sweet Lord! Some of these final exam answers are painful to read. One student tried to calculate the range of a projectile using the volume equation for a cylinder. Stu thought that the radius was the range.
This demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of mathematical principles going back to at least junior high.
Quote from: spork on May 02, 2021, 05:19:47 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 01, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
Oh my dear sweet Lord! Some of these final exam answers are painful to read. One student tried to calculate the range of a projectile using the volume equation for a cylinder. Stu thought that the radius was the range.
This demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of mathematical principles going back to at least junior high.
But least the student might know the alphabet, as range and radius do both start with "r"
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 02, 2021, 05:38:14 AM
Quote from: spork on May 02, 2021, 05:19:47 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 01, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
Oh my dear sweet Lord! Some of these final exam answers are painful to read. One student tried to calculate the range of a projectile using the volume equation for a cylinder. Stu thought that the radius was the range.
This demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of mathematical principles going back to at least junior high.
But least the student might know the alphabet, as range and radius do both start with "r"
And velocity and volume both start with "v", so won't any formula including "v" and"r" work?????
Students were asked to pick a new, public-facing audience and revise a previous essay from my class for that audience. We looked at dozens of examples of research and scholarship compressed for the modern reader: newspaper articles, blogs, textbook summaries, even cover letters. I stress that most revisions will be shorter and simpler. The rubric states that the revision should be 50% different from the original.
Stu chose to transform a grandiloquent essay on rhetoric in an early American sermon for an audience of children 3 - 7 years old. Stu added three words and definitions of three rhetorical terms (the original essay forgot to mention rhetoric). Stu submitted the purported revision with the explanation that nothing else needed to be changed because keeping the original essay would "advance the cranial development of prepubescents."
I am so done with this semester.
AR.
If that was Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," it should explain somewhere that over-anthologizing a non-representative outlier from the preacher's homiletic corpus seriously skews modern-day understandings of dubious terms like "The Great," and the "Second Great Awakening" and unfairly leverages late 19th-century Unitarian historical proclivities to demean their so-called Puritan ancestors (Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist, not a Puritan) in a revisionist effort to maintain competing claims for primitive arrival narratives while also upholding unitarian theological constructions as inherent in the earliest arrivants' intentions (they were not, as covenantal formulae and doxological suffixes to Psalmody show.)
If they got that straight, then, fine, pass 'em.
But not otherwise...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 04:43:04 AM
If that was Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," it should explain somewhere that over-anthologizing a non-representative outlier from the preacher's homiletic corpus seriously skews modern-day understandings of dubious terms like "The Great," and the "Second Great Awakening" and unfairly leverages late 19th-century Unitarian historical proclivities to demean their so-called Puritan ancestors (Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist, not a Puritan) in a revisionist effort to maintain competing claims for primitive arrival narratives while also upholding unitarian theological constructions as inherent in the earliest arrivants' intentions (they were not, as covenantal formulae and doxological suffixes to Psalmody show.)
If they got that straight, then, fine, pass 'em.
But not otherwise...
M.
LOL! Mamselle, I love it! Thank you for brightening my morning with this hilarious paragraph--and for teaching me something new, as I didn't know Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist (which I'll go look up in more detail this afternoon). It was actually an extract from a sermon by John Cotton.
AR.
With the semester's end upon us, another stu trying to use the "screenshot defense from stu's computer" to explain why stu's series of weekly online assignments were not actually submitted weeks after the due date but were in fact uploaded to the LMS on time.
LMS analytics show stu went over a month without uploading anything.
Once upon a time vendors said that LMS platforms were supposed to solve these types of issues.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2021, 06:57:35 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 02, 2021, 05:38:14 AM
Quote from: spork on May 02, 2021, 05:19:47 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 01, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
Oh my dear sweet Lord! Some of these final exam answers are painful to read. One student tried to calculate the range of a projectile using the volume equation for a cylinder. Stu thought that the radius was the range.
This demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of mathematical principles going back to at least junior high.
But least the student might know the alphabet, as range and radius do both start with "r"
And velocity and volume both start with "v", so won't any formula including "v" and"r" work?????
Ha! This student has performed abysmally throughout the semester. Just had no clue.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 03, 2021, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 04:43:04 AM
If that was Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," it should explain somewhere that over-anthologizing a non-representative outlier from the preacher's homiletic corpus seriously skews modern-day understandings of dubious terms like "The Great," and the "Second Great Awakening" and unfairly leverages late 19th-century Unitarian historical proclivities to demean their so-called Puritan ancestors (Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist, not a Puritan) in a revisionist effort to maintain competing claims for primitive arrival narratives while also upholding unitarian theological constructions as inherent in the earliest arrivants' intentions (they were not, as covenantal formulae and doxological suffixes to Psalmody show.)
If they got that straight, then, fine, pass 'em.
But not otherwise...
M.
LOL! Mamselle, I love it! Thank you for brightening my morning with this hilarious paragraph--and for teaching me something new, as I didn't know Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist (which I'll go look up in more detail this afternoon). It was actually an extract from a sermon by John Cotton.
AR.
Glad to have made someone smile today!
Now back to sorting out whether there were, or should be, or should have been, any theological, philosophical, or historical objections to the interpretations in some quarters (mostly N. French, but some Roman) of Palm Sunday processions as representational, presentational, allegorical, anagogical, analogical, metaphoric, or politially subversive to nearby underling monastic emplantations who routinely challenged the authority of the archbishops in whose towns they were emplanted.
All in a day's work...
;--}
M.
P. S. Oh, and OK, then, yes, John Cotton can be taken as Puritan: the marker for his home, uphill from King's Chapel, uses his Old England title of "vicar," consistent with the eponymous desire to purify the Anglican church from within.
He did Anne Hutchinson a poor turn, pulling the theological Turkeywork rug he'd hooked at St. Botolph's, Lincolnshire out from under her when she took his "law/grace" formulation at face value and tried to hold him to its application in a new context, but he had the rest of the Boston clergy yelling at him, so maybe supporting her in the first part of her trial was all he could do....
Which sermon?
Oh, and (to save you the trouble...) New-Light Congregationalists (and Baptists) and New-Plan Presbyterians were those influenced by George Whitfield's preaching campaigns (despite the discouraging treatment of Whitfield by the established clergy, who didn't much like being told that their studious effort to produce well-researched, well-thought-out sermons as they'd been taught--whether at Harvard, Yale (by then) or one of the Cambridge, (Cambridge. England) colleges--was insufficient as compared with the heart-warmed experiences the Wesleys and others proffered as "proof" of a saving faith).
Both together might have been (and still are, in some quarters) very good.
Polarizing the two formed the roots of the "head-vs.-heart" dichotomy that we still see playing up in American politics today.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 04:43:04 AM
If that was Edwards' "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," it should explain somewhere that over-anthologizing a non-representative outlier from the preacher's homiletic corpus seriously skews modern-day understandings of dubious terms like "The Great," and the "Second Great Awakening" and unfairly leverages late 19th-century Unitarian historical proclivities to demean their so-called Puritan ancestors (Edwards was a New-Light Congregationalist, not a Puritan) in a revisionist effort to maintain competing claims for primitive arrival narratives while also upholding unitarian theological constructions as inherent in the earliest arrivants' intentions (they were not, as covenantal formulae and doxological suffixes to Psalmody show.)
If they got that straight, then, fine, pass 'em.
But not otherwise...
M.
He's a very misunderstood figure, all right.
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 08:25:21 AM
Which sermon?
It's an extract from Cotton's
A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace in which he describes hypocrites as swine and goats: https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html (https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html). It is not in my area of expertise, but great for rhetorical analyses. (Except this student couldn't find any rhetorical appeals or devices
anywhere in the text).
I have very happy memories of sitting on a bench in Krakow some time ago, only to have one of the Palm Sunday processions walk right past me. It was amazing to see, and that paper sounds fascinating.
AR.
I've been meeting with students who used Chegg on their exam (despite explicit instructions that using Chegg or similar site is considered cheating and will result in an F).
To a person they are SHOCKED that I caught them. Mostly shocked that I BOTHERED to catch them. Their attitude is that online classes mean that everyone is cheating anyway, regardless of any proctoring.
I wish there was a way that we could anonymously survey the students to get data to show the higher admin folks that students see online classes as an invitation to cheat.
I really, really hope that my classes are back to in person in Fall so that it's back to the staring at students while they take exams in person.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2021, 10:40:29 AM
I've been meeting with students who used Chegg on their exam (despite explicit instructions that using Chegg or similar site is considered cheating and will result in an F).
To a person they are SHOCKED that I caught them. Mostly shocked that I BOTHERED to catch them. Their attitude is that online classes mean that everyone is cheating anyway, regardless of any proctoring.
I wish there was a way that we could anonymously survey the students to get data to show the higher admin folks that students see online classes as an invitation to cheat.
I really, really hope that my classes are back to in person in Fall so that it's back to the staring at students while they take exams in person.
Oh god yes. Except our brilliant college has decided that all online classes will continue to have online exams, and we're mandated to have at least one online section of each class.
I'm very seriously considering resurrecting oral exams.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2021, 10:40:29 AM
I've been meeting with students who used Chegg on their exam (despite explicit instructions that using Chegg or similar site is considered cheating and will result in an F).
To a person they are SHOCKED that I caught them. Mostly shocked that I BOTHERED to catch them. Their attitude is that online classes mean that everyone is cheating anyway, regardless of any proctoring.
I wish there was a way that we could anonymously survey the students to get data to show the higher admin folks that students see online classes as an invitation to cheat.
I really, really hope that my classes are back to in person in Fall so that it's back to the staring at students while they take exams in person.
Daaamn. Really makes you wonder what the point of teaching (online) is sometimes....
Quote from: AvidReader on May 03, 2021, 10:01:04 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 08:25:21 AM
Which sermon?
It's an extract from Cotton's A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace in which he describes hypocrites as swine and goats: https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html (https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html). It is not in my area of expertise, but great for rhetorical analyses. (Except this student couldn't find any rhetorical appeals or devices anywhere in the text).
Wow. The student really failed to grasp it.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 03, 2021, 10:01:04 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 03, 2021, 08:25:21 AM
Which sermon?
It's an extract from Cotton's A Treatise of the Covenant of Grace in which he describes hypocrites as swine and goats: https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html (https://www.bartleby.com/400/prose/78.html). It is not in my area of expertise, but great for rhetorical analyses. (Except this student couldn't find any rhetorical appeals or devices anywhere in the text).
I have very happy memories of sitting on a bench in Krakow some time ago, only to have one of the Palm Sunday processions walk right past me. It was amazing to see, and that paper sounds fascinating.
AR.
Thanks!
That would be so cool, to be taken by surprise by a procession like that...
M.
Student in a class where it is like pulling teeth to get students to participate or to ask questions wants to know if I am going to hold a review session before the final exam. If I call every remaining class meeting a "review session," will those magical words induce them to ask more questions?
A "review session" is merely a meeting where you tell the class what's going to be on the exam.
I had a "review session" for a class last night. As I told them, repeatedly, in advance: You have to ask questions. If you don't ask questions, the meeting ends. If you run out of questions, the meeting ends.
We met for 4 minutes.
Students goes to Dean of Students and my direct supervisor to say I'm "out to get them." Their words. They failed to mentioned they missed 7 weeks in a row. That was easily cleared up.
Quote from: FishProf on May 04, 2021, 03:41:40 AM
I had a "review session" for a class last night. As I told them, repeatedly, in advance: You have to ask questions. If you don't ask questions, the meeting ends. If you run out of questions, the meeting ends.
We met for 4 minutes.
They can't help it if they already have it all down. Should be an easy exam to grade, right?
Quote from: apl68 on May 04, 2021, 10:50:14 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 04, 2021, 03:41:40 AM
I had a "review session" for a class last night. As I told them, repeatedly, in advance: You have to ask questions. If you don't ask questions, the meeting ends. If you run out of questions, the meeting ends.
We met for 4 minutes.
They can't help it if they already have it all down. Should be an easy exam to grade, right?
Based on history, it'll take a bottle and a half.
Quote from: Diogenes on May 04, 2021, 07:26:36 AM
Students goes to Dean of Students and my direct supervisor to say I'm "out to get them." Their words. They failed to mentioned they missed 7 weeks in a row. That was easily cleared up.
These are actually kind of fun--as long as you have a decent dean and supervisor.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 03, 2021, 12:00:18 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2021, 10:40:29 AM
I've been meeting with students who used Chegg on their exam (despite explicit instructions that using Chegg or similar site is considered cheating and will result in an F).
To a person they are SHOCKED that I caught them. Mostly shocked that I BOTHERED to catch them. Their attitude is that online classes mean that everyone is cheating anyway, regardless of any proctoring.
I wish there was a way that we could anonymously survey the students to get data to show the higher admin folks that students see online classes as an invitation to cheat.
I really, really hope that my classes are back to in person in Fall so that it's back to the staring at students while they take exams in person.
Daaamn. Really makes you wonder what the point of teaching (online) is sometimes....
And I've just filed reports for 7 more who viewed answers while taking the exam.
Now to contact the ones who also used it for their assignments. Some of the questions are so darn basic that it's honestly insulting that they are asking for assistance (You have learned about 3 main types of [elements in basket patterns]. Here is a [basket pattern]. Please find and circle examples of the element in the pattern). A student who either paid attention in class or bothered to look at the posted slides should easily be able to answer the question.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 09:45:31 AM
Now to contact the ones who also used it for their assignments. Some of the questions are so darn basic that it's honestly insulting that they are asking for assistance (You have learned about 3 main types of [elements in basket patterns]. Here is a [basket pattern]. Please find and circle examples of the element in the pattern). A student who either paid attention in class or bothered to look at the posted slides should easily be able to answer the question.
In beginning algebra, I have notetaking guides for them to complete. They are fill in the blank and mostly to ensure they at least OPENED the fucking video.
People google them. Seriously. It is a sentence with blanks taken word-for-word from what I said in the video which is CAPTIONED, and you are so damn lazy you can't turn on closed captioning and fast-forward?
Wow. That's an impressive amount of work to avoid, you know, doing work.
Quote from: kiana on May 05, 2021, 09:55:10 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 09:45:31 AM
Now to contact the ones who also used it for their assignments. Some of the questions are so darn basic that it's honestly insulting that they are asking for assistance (You have learned about 3 main types of [elements in basket patterns]. Here is a [basket pattern]. Please find and circle examples of the element in the pattern). A student who either paid attention in class or bothered to look at the posted slides should easily be able to answer the question.
In beginning algebra, I have notetaking guides for them to complete. They are fill in the blank and mostly to ensure they at least OPENED the fucking video.
People google them. Seriously. It is a sentence with blanks taken word-for-word from what I said in the video which is CAPTIONED, and you are so damn lazy you can't turn on closed captioning and fast-forward?
A recent
open-book reading quiz:
Which of the following are true of the article by [author] assigned for class today?
1) It is one page long
2) It has more than three paragraphs
3) It includes parenthetical citations
4) It has a works cited page
5) The title is [title]
6) The author is [not author]
Not one student got this entirely correct. They had two tries. More than half picked all as true the first time and all as false the second time, which averaged out (in both cases) to 0 points, since 3 were true and 3 were not.
AR.
OK, I think I might need to create a list or video of things are are considered academic dishonesty for my students.
Posting exam questions, even if you "didn't have enough time to get all of the answers"
Letting someone else use your Chegg.com account while they take an exam
Using Chegg.com to "double check" your answer if you're unsure
Looking at answers to all of the exam questions because you're "going through a crisis"
Only using it for answers to some of the questions, but not all of them
I hate my new pandemic hobby of chasing down academic dishonesty. And this class will be online again in Summer.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 01:39:26 PM
OK, I think I might need to create a list or video of things are are considered academic dishonesty for my students.
Posting exam questions, even if you "didn't have enough time to get all of the answers"
Letting someone else use your Chegg.com account while they take an exam
Using Chegg.com to "double check" your answer if you're unsure
Looking at answers to all of the exam questions because you're "going through a crisis"
Only using it for answers to some of the questions, but not all of them
I hate my new pandemic hobby of chasing down academic dishonesty. And this class will be online again in Summer.
Same, except it's fucking photomath for me. And I'll be teaching online again in summer. FML.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 01:39:26 PM
I hate my new pandemic hobby of chasing down academic dishonesty. And this class will be online again in Summer.
This seems to be my hobby too. I've filed more reports this semester than in the past 10 or so semesters.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 05, 2021, 02:33:16 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 01:39:26 PM
I hate my new pandemic hobby of chasing down academic dishonesty. And this class will be online again in Summer.
This seems to be my hobby too. I've filed more reports this semester than in the past 10 or so semesters.
We are about to have a school wide reckoning with plagiarism. It's been unevenly enforced
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on May 05, 2021, 02:41:59 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 05, 2021, 02:33:16 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 05, 2021, 01:39:26 PM
I hate my new pandemic hobby of chasing down academic dishonesty. And this class will be online again in Summer.
This seems to be my hobby too. I've filed more reports this semester than in the past 10 or so semesters.
We are about to have a school wide reckoning with plagiarism. It's been unevenly enforced
You might discover that some students have been purchasing boilerplate or bespoke essays since high school. My wife discovered this recently, due to the stupidity of the students she caught. "But I've been getting help from the same 'writing tutor' since high school, and so has Josh."
Whelp. Looks like all my (times!) exams are on Chegg. Sigh.
Guess I should make trap questions, or demand a share of the revenue or something.
Can you post incorrect answers? I always though that would be a fun way to thwart the cheating
Quote from: FishProf on May 07, 2021, 03:40:58 AM
Can you post incorrect answers? I always though that would be a fun way to thwart the cheating
Other things that can be done:
Change the question so that it's superficially similar, but the Chegg answer is wrong.
Search Chegg for good questions in your discipline (people write excellent questions!) with wrong answers. Put those questions on the test.
What I like about these two approaches is that while they will screw over anyone who's Chegging it, honest students are not harmed.
Yes, I'll have to do something like that, and set other traps. I'll also have to find a way to see the Chegg answers, however.
I recently emailed someone I knew professionally because I stumbled on a recent page on a cheating site that provided the answers for their quizzes.
I was a bit worried that it would seem strange that I would do that, but I imagine that most people would not be upset.
I keep checking for my stuff on Chegg, but I've never found it. I'm not sure if I'm being naive or if my students really aren't cheating. I've been giving a larger number of short, low stakes exams. My hope is that it's easier to just solve the problems yourself than to get someone to solve them for you.
Chegg.com will take down questions from your exams, quizzes, etc. Just copy the link and paste in a submission form. It's under "copyright protection" or a similar link at the bottom of their website.
The other way to check is to just do a Google search for your questions. If it's on CourseHero or Chegg, it will pop up as one of the first hits.
My current head banging moment is learning that one of my most experienced TAs (not trained by me, but that's another story) has been telling students the answers to their assignments before they turn them in. As in, the student emails to say "Is the answer to question 1 [incorrect answer]?" and the TA writes back "The answer to question 1 is [correct answer]. And here's the answer to question 2." Student "Oh thank you! You are so helpful!"
Seriously?! Why do you think this is OK?
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 09:25:06 AM
Chegg.com will take down questions from your exams, quizzes, etc. Just copy the link and paste in a submission form. It's under "copyright protection" or a similar link at the bottom of their website.
The other way to check is to just do a Google search for your questions. If it's on CourseHero or Chegg, it will pop up as one of the first hits.
My current head banging moment is learning that one of my most experienced TAs (not trained by me, but that's another story) has been telling students the answers to their assignments before they turn them in. As in, the student emails to say "Is the answer to question 1 [incorrect answer]?" and the TA writes back "The answer to question 1 is [correct answer]. And here's the answer to question 2." Student "Oh thank you! You are so helpful!"
Seriously?! Why do you think this is OK?
Get a new TA.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 07, 2021, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 09:25:06 AM
Chegg.com will take down questions from your exams, quizzes, etc. Just copy the link and paste in a submission form. It's under "copyright protection" or a similar link at the bottom of their website.
The other way to check is to just do a Google search for your questions. If it's on CourseHero or Chegg, it will pop up as one of the first hits.
My current head banging moment is learning that one of my most experienced TAs (not trained by me, but that's another story) has been telling students the answers to their assignments before they turn them in. As in, the student emails to say "Is the answer to question 1 [incorrect answer]?" and the TA writes back "The answer to question 1 is [correct answer]. And here's the answer to question 2." Student "Oh thank you! You are so helpful!"
Seriously?! Why do you think this is OK?
Get a new TA.
I do not want to ever work with this one again. But it's not entirely my choice since TAs are assigned by a committee.
We had a follow-up email where the TA said that when students email right before the assignment is due, that they just don't have the time to meet with the student, so the TA thought it was best to just tell the student the answer. You know, so the student won't "feel bad".
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 12:19:18 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 07, 2021, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 09:25:06 AM
Chegg.com will take down questions from your exams, quizzes, etc. Just copy the link and paste in a submission form. It's under "copyright protection" or a similar link at the bottom of their website.
The other way to check is to just do a Google search for your questions. If it's on CourseHero or Chegg, it will pop up as one of the first hits.
My current head banging moment is learning that one of my most experienced TAs (not trained by me, but that's another story) has been telling students the answers to their assignments before they turn them in. As in, the student emails to say "Is the answer to question 1 [incorrect answer]?" and the TA writes back "The answer to question 1 is [correct answer]. And here's the answer to question 2." Student "Oh thank you! You are so helpful!"
Seriously?! Why do you think this is OK?
Get a new TA.
I do not want to ever work with this one again. But it's not entirely my choice since TAs are assigned by a committee.
We had a follow-up email where the TA said that when students email right before the assignment is due, that they just don't have the time to meet with the student, so the TA thought it was best to just tell the student the answer. You know, so the student won't "feel bad".
zomfg
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 12:19:18 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 07, 2021, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 07, 2021, 09:25:06 AM
Chegg.com will take down questions from your exams, quizzes, etc. Just copy the link and paste in a submission form. It's under "copyright protection" or a similar link at the bottom of their website.
The other way to check is to just do a Google search for your questions. If it's on CourseHero or Chegg, it will pop up as one of the first hits.
My current head banging moment is learning that one of my most experienced TAs (not trained by me, but that's another story) has been telling students the answers to their assignments before they turn them in. As in, the student emails to say "Is the answer to question 1 [incorrect answer]?" and the TA writes back "The answer to question 1 is [correct answer]. And here's the answer to question 2." Student "Oh thank you! You are so helpful!"
Seriously?! Why do you think this is OK?
Get a new TA.
I do not want to ever work with this one again. But it's not entirely my choice since TAs are assigned by a committee.
We had a follow-up email where the TA said that when students email right before the assignment is due, that they just don't have the time to meet with the student, so the TA thought it was best to just tell the student the answer. You know, so the student won't "feel bad".
Sad to say, I had a
prof back around 1980 that would give an assignment on Tuesday, that was due on Thursday, and would provide "hints" on Wednesday to help the people who weren't getting it. It seemed to me as a student it was just a way of telling students, "Don't start the assignment until after the 'hints' on Wednesday."
The TA is too young to have had that prof, but is certainly in the same pedagogical lineage.....
I have a student (online class) who first missed assignments and notified me it was because he had to take care of his daughter since his wife had COVID. I gave an extension. He missed the deadline, asked for another extension he said because his wife had died. I gave an extension with my condolences. He missed that because he said his daughter died. I gave an open ended extension and recommended he make an appointment with counseling/academic advisors, etc.
Now, after not having turned any of those assignments in and submitting the occasional minor assignment since then, he emails to tell me he needs a D in my class and he has cancer.
Now, if all this is true then I'm terribly sorry. But is anyone else suspecting this might not be true? I don't want to look heartless by requiring proof but what are the chances of this man in his early twenties having cancer in addition to losing his wife and daughter all within a couple months?
I would bump this up the chain. You could be very sympathetic, and advise Stu that you are copying (advisor/chair/dean) who could refer him to the counseling center and also advise the professors in his other classes.
At this point you would need documentation of some sort.
Quote from: Charlotte on May 08, 2021, 01:46:19 PM
I have a student (online class) who first missed assignments and notified me it was because he had to take care of his daughter since his wife had COVID. I gave an extension. He missed the deadline, asked for another extension he said because his wife had died. I gave an extension with my condolences. He missed that because he said his daughter died. I gave an open ended extension and recommended he make an appointment with counseling/academic advisors, etc.
Now, after not having turned any of those assignments in and submitting the occasional minor assignment since then, he emails to tell me he needs a D in my class and he has cancer.
Now, if all this is true then I'm terribly sorry. But is anyone else suspecting this might not be true? I don't want to look heartless by requiring proof but what are the chances of this man in his early twenties having cancer in addition to losing his wife and daughter all within a couple months?
This sounds like one to direct to the Dean's office (or whoever deals with that). If this student is taking more than one course, then if it's true, there should be similar issues in all courses. (And then puts the verification on the Dean's office.)
on edit: What Langue_doc said.
I agree with the above. If all this is true, your student probably needs a retroactive withdrawal more than a D.
If you are curious, most obituaries are posted online and searchable via Google these days. Also, most obituaries include the names of immediate family members, so you likely don't even need to know the name of the wife or daughter.
AR.
Quote from: kiana on May 03, 2021, 11:08:20 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2021, 10:40:29 AM
I've been meeting with students who used Chegg on their exam (despite explicit instructions that using Chegg or similar site is considered cheating and will result in an F).
To a person they are SHOCKED that I caught them. Mostly shocked that I BOTHERED to catch them. Their attitude is that online classes mean that everyone is cheating anyway, regardless of any proctoring.
I wish there was a way that we could anonymously survey the students to get data to show the higher admin folks that students see online classes as an invitation to cheat.
I really, really hope that my classes are back to in person in Fall so that it's back to the staring at students while they take exams in person.
Oh god yes. Except our brilliant college has decided that all online classes will continue to have online exams, and we're mandated to have at least one online section of each class.
I'm very seriously considering resurrecting oral exams.
I did oral exams on Zoom in several classes over the past year. It was very time-consuming for the class with 30+ students, but I was certain that the answers were coming from the brains of the students, at least in most cases.
I love oral exams. They take longer to administer, but moments to grade.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 09, 2021, 06:40:26 AM
I love oral exams. They take longer to administer, but moments to grade.
AR.
How would you ever handle a grade appeal for one? That's my fear. If you have a fixed set of questions that you ask every student, there's the possibility of cheating by early students letting the questions out, but if you have different questions for different students it seems that would leave you wide open to charges of unfairness.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2021, 06:58:46 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on May 09, 2021, 06:40:26 AM
I love oral exams. They take longer to administer, but moments to grade.
AR.
How would you ever handle a grade appeal for one? That's my fear. If you have a fixed set of questions that you ask every student, there's the possibility of cheating by early students letting the questions out, but if you have different questions for different students it seems that would leave you wide open to charges of unfairness.
I don't think this is that much different than having a question bank that is larger than the number of questions being asked, as long as you can prove that you are not giving "easier" questions to your "favorite" students. (I've also never had a grade appeal, although I have sometimes recommended that dissatisfied students should appeal.) I'm in humanities.
I've done these a few different ways.
1. Students receive a list of essay-styled questions/topics. They prepare a presentation on one and deliver the presentation to me, after which point I ask questions about it (if I can rope a colleague in to also ask questions, this also cuts down on possible bias). They have a set list of required components (e.g. clear claim, X number of examples, or whatever I want to achieve). After the Q&A, I choose a separate question from the same list, and they have to answer that one impromptu, with slightly gentler requirements. (If observing and critiquing in tandem, colleague and I will discuss which second question would be most appropriate based on student's focus on Q1). I have sometimes drawn Q2 out of a hat, but prefer to choose the topic that is least similar to the original presentation. I suppose you could also have a list of related questions, e.g. if the student presents on option 1, you will ask about option 4.
2. Students have a wider choice of topics and present on one in front of the class. Again, there is a list of required components. After the presentation, classmates ask questions (these questions count towards the exam grade) and I ask questions at the end.
3. I have a set list of questions batched by type and ask one question from each batch, rotating the questions. Again, each answer should have certain components (e.g. an example from class, an example from a primary text, etc.).
For those three types, I have a rubric with the list of components and a pre-designated number of points for each element, so having an example from a primary source might earn 5 points, and a thoughtful explanation of that example could earn up to 15. I like these because I can ask clarifying questions that help them earn more points; if they can't answer the clarifying questions, I can note that when record the points earned per question. I'll also jot down their general answer (at least a keyword).
4. For more fact-driven classes (mostly languages, but some survey courses), I've done finals with set time frames but an open-ended number of points. I'll have a series of required questions (usually the hardest things we've covered) and they need to answer a certain number of those (my selection, but usually random). For a language class, this is usually a translation. If a student gets stuck, the student can earn partial points for clarifying questions ("even if you don't know what this word means, do you know what part of speech it is? Is it the subject or the direct object? Does it modify any other words?"). I can also provide a definition or part of speech (with an automatic deduction) that will then allow the student to puzzle out the rest of the sentence. If I ask the student to conjugate a verb to work out the correct pronoun or tense for a word, the student would earn points for that also. So the set translation might be worth 200 points if completed perfectly; the student might ask for 5 definitions and get a few tenses wrong, but the student might also conjugate a verb in several tenses and define a participle along the way, earning another (say) 30 points in the process. Assuming the student didn't have any errors on the additional questions, I would divide 230 (translation + additional explanations) by the number of points earned and make that the grade.
In all of these cases, I make and print a rubric with the required components or available points and fill it out for every student, and I save this just as I would save a final exam sheet.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 09, 2021, 02:30:02 PM
In all of these cases, I make and print a rubric with the required components or available points and fill it out for every student, and I save this just as I would save a final exam sheet.
AR.
That makes sense. You give a lot of direction as to what is expected; when I've heard other people talk about oral exams it sounded a lot more wide open.
Students are taking their second midterm exam. After catching so many cheaters on the first midterm, I sent out a stern warning about what they can and cannot use during the exam and to let them know that yes I do check and yes I do report folks.
And I just found a question from the 2nd exam on Chegg.com
Gah! This class cannot end soon enough. I am looking forward to being back in the lab and being grouchy about reminding students that their goggles have to be on their face, not on top of their heads.
And... somebody just tried to log into today's remote class session.
Except that class sessions ended over a week ago, the final exam ended last Friday, and the course officially shut down yesterday and was announced as such.
Quote from: Aster on May 11, 2021, 10:02:42 AM
And... somebody just tried to log into today's remote class session.
Except that class sessions ended over a week ago, the final exam ended last Friday, and the course officially shut down yesterday and was announced as such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umj0gu5nEGs
STOP fixating on nickel and diming your goddamn homework grade. START trying to study hard for the TEST. You know, the one that's 30% of your grade, that will determine if you pass or fail?
Quote from: Aster on May 11, 2021, 10:02:42 AM
And... somebody just tried to log into today's remote class session.
Except that class sessions ended over a week ago, the final exam ended last Friday, and the course officially shut down yesterday and was announced as such.
I think students have a whole bunch of different zoom links to deal with and have trouble keeping them straight. I get email notifications* when someone logs into one of my Zoom sessions and have noticed that students often join on the wrong day of the week and/or the wrong time of day. But perhaps your class session is not on Zoom or there's something that makes it extra-peculiar...
I keep a list of Zoom links in a tab/document that's always open on my computer. I have to pay attention to make sure that I copy or click the right link from the list. If I'm sitting in office hours and no one shows up, I usually double-check that I'm in the right Zoom session.
(*I only see the notification if/when my email is open; I have all of the alerts turned off.)
Quote from: kiana on May 11, 2021, 10:49:02 AM
STOP fixating on nickel and diming your goddamn homework grade. START trying to study hard for the TEST. You know, the one that's 30% of your grade, that will determine if you pass or fail?
Yes. And quite asking for extra credit when you haven't done the original f-ing credit.
Quote from: fishbrains on May 11, 2021, 05:48:49 PM
Quote from: kiana on May 11, 2021, 10:49:02 AM
STOP fixating on nickel and diming your goddamn homework grade. START trying to study hard for the TEST. You know, the one that's 30% of your grade, that will determine if you pass or fail?
Yes. And quite asking for extra credit when you haven't done the original f-ing credit.
I know!
Quote from: fishbrains on May 11, 2021, 05:48:49 PM
Quote from: kiana on May 11, 2021, 10:49:02 AM
STOP fixating on nickel and diming your goddamn homework grade. START trying to study hard for the TEST. You know, the one that's 30% of your grade, that will determine if you pass or fail?
Yes. And quite asking for extra credit when you haven't done the original f-ing credit.
When I was working at a place where
requests demands for extra credit were frequent and I got so tired of having the extra credit conversation, I put something my syllabus about extra credit, which said something like "Extra credit policy: Extra credit is designed for academic enrichment, If you have mastered the course material, as demonstrated by your performance on class assignments and exams, you may request to meet with me to discuss additional opportunities to go beyond the requirements of this course to further your knowledge about [course subject]." I think I had exactly one student meet with me to actually discuss this version of extra credit--I later wrote a rec for them for grad school.
I came across a plagiarized paper while grading today. It sucks the energy out of me. Since our institution will not pay for plagiarism detection software, I did my own detective work through Internet searches. The paper consisted of completely copied material from at least eight articles and web sites that I could find (regarding content that had nothing to do with my assignment, of course). I referred it to the academic integrity office and gave the student a zero. This student is in my elective course, so hu might have to retake it since the zero knocked hu to a final grade of F, and the student also has to take my required course for the program eventually also. Sigh.
Student talks can be painful. Due to Covid restrictions, my seniors had to record their talks and upload them. I would think students would re-record bad talks, but no. They were mostly one-offs that were awful.
I just finished a 7 minute talk about Cryotherapy, which is apparently pronounced KREE-Oh-Therapy.
Ouch
Quote from: FishProf on May 12, 2021, 06:14:42 AM
Student talks can be painful. Due to Covid restrictions, my seniors had to record their talks and upload them. I would think students would re-record bad talks, but no. They were mostly one-offs that were awful.
I just finished a 7 minute talk about Cryotherapy, which is apparently pronounced KREE-Oh-Therapy.
Ouch
FishProf, get out of my life! OK, I know we're at different places since you're on semesters and I'm on quarters, but I am moderating recorded undergraduate research talks. I feel like a good mentor needs to teach students how to pronounce important words, like the scientific name of the critter they studied.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 11, 2021, 06:32:57 PM
Quote from: fishbrains on May 11, 2021, 05:48:49 PM
Quote from: kiana on May 11, 2021, 10:49:02 AM
STOP fixating on nickel and diming your goddamn homework grade. START trying to study hard for the TEST. You know, the one that's 30% of your grade, that will determine if you pass or fail?
Yes. And quite asking for extra credit when you haven't done the original f-ing credit.
When I was working at a place where requests demands for extra credit were frequent and I got so tired of having the extra credit conversation, I put something my syllabus about extra credit, which said something like "Extra credit policy: Extra credit is designed for academic enrichment, If you have mastered the course material, as demonstrated by your performance on class assignments and exams, you may request to meet with me to discuss additional opportunities to go beyond the requirements of this course to further your knowledge about [course subject]." I think I had exactly one student meet with me to actually discuss this version of extra credit--I later wrote a rec for them for grad school.
I guess I should have realized this by now, after all the references to it I've seen here--but it just now clicked with me that so many students see "extra credit" as an opportunity for a second chance to make up credit they've blown off, rather than the "enrichment opportunity" to go above and beyond that you're talking about. I wonder when the latter transitioned into the former in student understanding? Or is that pretty much how they've always seen "extra credit?"
I've been telling students for 20 years (in my syllabus, so they probably never saw it) that: "What most students mean by EXTRA-CREDIT is, in fact, ALTERNATIVE CREDIT (i.e. points for doing something NOT part of the class to make up for not doing what IS part of the class). In this course, there is no Alternative Credit. Don't ask."
At one time, I did allow real Extra Credit. I don't do that anymore.
I'm pretty sure that students see extra credit as "bonus points" or "last minute please raise my grade" and not an opportunity for growth.
I tell students that I do NOT offer any extra credit. But if I need student responses on say, what topic they want for a particular module, or who has bean seeds available for a plant project, then I will give a tiny amount of extra credit for completing the survey in a certain timeframe.
Or when we had in-person labs, the only way to get students to actually take apart and examine flowers was to offer them a whopping 1 extra credit point (in a lab with more than 300 graded points). It was weird, they were willing to give up existing points on the worksheet since they didn't want to "destroy" a flower for normal credit, but offering them 1 extra credit and they happily dove right in.
I had two students this term that failed to submit their final exams, but strangely completed the small extra credit assignment that was assigned the same day as the exams.
In both cases, the students would have received passing grades if they took their final exams. But they didn't, and one student has a D and the other has an F. The extra credit that they completed was irrelevant.
Extra credit is the junk food of academic curriculum.
Quote from: Aster on May 12, 2021, 11:18:30 AM
I had two students this term that failed to submit their final exams, but strangely completed the small extra credit assignment that was assigned the same day as the exams.
In both cases, the students would have received passing grades if they took their final exams. But they didn't, and one student has a D and the other has an F. The extra credit that they completed was irrelevant.
Extra credit is the junk food of academic curriculum.
Yep, had a student complete a very small extra credit assignment at the end of the semester rather than turn in a major project. If they had turned in anything remotely close to passing on the major project they would have passed the class. I generally offer just a few small extra credit assignments. Since I'm in the arts I like to post cultural events and similar opportunities for students to attend and earn a few points.
My experience has been that when a student asks me for extra credit what they mean is that they would like the same grade but for less work.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 12, 2021, 10:51:22 AM
Or when we had in-person labs, the only way to get students to actually take apart and examine flowers was to offer them a whopping 1 extra credit point (in a lab with more than 300 graded points). It was weird, they were willing to give up existing points on the worksheet since they didn't want to "destroy" a flower for normal credit, but offering them 1 extra credit and they happily dove right in.
Wonder how many points it would take to get them to take apart and examine a lab rat?
Sorry...random thought.
Quote from: apl68 on May 12, 2021, 01:31:37 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 12, 2021, 10:51:22 AM
Or when we had in-person labs, the only way to get students to actually take apart and examine flowers was to offer them a whopping 1 extra credit point (in a lab with more than 300 graded points). It was weird, they were willing to give up existing points on the worksheet since they didn't want to "destroy" a flower for normal credit, but offering them 1 extra credit and they happily dove right in.
Wonder how many points it would take to get them to take apart and examine a lab rat?
So much for their "morals"... ha ha.
Quote from: Aster on May 12, 2021, 11:18:30 AM
Extra credit is the junk food of academic curriculum.
I agree and wish that more faculty would cut back or drop it entirely from their menu offerings.
I don't offer extra credit. I include a sentence in my syllabi stating that there is no extra credit. I also remind students that "extra" means "in addition to", and not " instead of ".
And yet another TA who just doesn't get the idea of fair & equitable grading.
No, you can't just be super lenient/lazy with grading because you "forgot" to do it on time. Giving full points for incorrect answers means that the students have no idea that their answers were incorrect. How is that helping them learn?
Yes I do notice and yes you will have to go back and RE-GRADE all of the damn assignments. I don't care that the students will be upset with you when they see their lower scores. I am upset with you and I have the power to block you from teaching this class again.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 12, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
And yet another TA who just doesn't get the idea of fair & equitable grading.
No, you can't just be super lenient/lazy with grading because you "forgot" to do it on time. Giving full points for incorrect answers means that the students have no idea that their answers were incorrect. How is that helping them learn?
Yes I do notice and yes you will have to go back and RE-GRADE all of the damn assignments. I don't care that the students will be upset with you when they see their lower scores. I am upset with you and I have the power to block you from teaching this class again.
I have one TA who went too far the other way, and repeatedly flunked perfectly acceptable responses, two years in a row. I had to make him go back and regrade them all, both times. The second time he tried to argue with me, so then I had to shut him down about that too.
This year, a colleague suggested getting him to help out with final exam grading, but I shut that idea down right away.
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 05:32:44 AM
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
That's why red pens are forbidden! (This was a discussion on the old Fora, I believe.......)
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 05:32:44 AM
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
I'm assuming that's someone's bad interpretation of a theory. It is really misplaced for writing courses. When I taught writing, I made a point to emphasize to students that drafts weren't supposed to be good. We all write crummy drafts which then need to be turned into something decent. Becoming a better writer is mostly about accepting that everything needs revision and learning how to do it.
Quote from: Caracal on May 13, 2021, 06:51:20 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 05:32:44 AM
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
I'm assuming that's someone's bad interpretation of a theory. It is really misplaced for writing courses. When I taught writing, I made a point to emphasize to students that drafts weren't supposed to be good. We all write crummy drafts which then need to be turned into something decent. Becoming a better writer is mostly about accepting that everything needs revision and learning how to do it.
Kind of an aside, but one of the practical problems here in
teaching is that the good students will often work very hard on the first "draft" and so what they hand in
originally is better than what many weaker students hand in
after revision, and so if they actually get graded on changes they make then they actually have to "mess up" their draft intentionally in order to have things to "improve".
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2021, 06:11:05 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 05:32:44 AM
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
That's why red pens are forbidden! (This was a discussion on the old Fora, I believe.......)
Well, I have to admit that when I was a TA grading essays with a red pen it sometimes looked like somebody had been murdered like Marat while grading the paper.
Quote from: ergative on May 13, 2021, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 12, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
And yet another TA who just doesn't get the idea of fair & equitable grading.
No, you can't just be super lenient/lazy with grading because you "forgot" to do it on time. Giving full points for incorrect answers means that the students have no idea that their answers were incorrect. How is that helping them learn?
Yes I do notice and yes you will have to go back and RE-GRADE all of the damn assignments. I don't care that the students will be upset with you when they see their lower scores. I am upset with you and I have the power to block you from teaching this class again.
I have one TA who went too far the other way, and repeatedly flunked perfectly acceptable responses, two years in a row. I had to make him go back and regrade them all, both times. The second time he tried to argue with me, so then I had to shut him down about that too.
Getting the level of grading strictness just about right is a tough skill to acquire. I recall struggling with it as a TA.
All of you struggle to catch all the Chegg cheaters, don't despair! Help is at hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I)
(Brought to you by Chegg. Having created the problem, we know the solution!)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 13, 2021, 06:51:20 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2021, 05:32:44 AM
I once had a TA who told me that hu had "philosophical objections to writing on students' papers". This was a writing class; I told the TA that writing, aka correcting/giving feedback was required for the job and to let me know whether hu could do the job. Some "education" schools apparently believe that corrections are detrimental to students' self-esteem!
I'm assuming that's someone's bad interpretation of a theory. It is really misplaced for writing courses. When I taught writing, I made a point to emphasize to students that drafts weren't supposed to be good. We all write crummy drafts which then need to be turned into something decent. Becoming a better writer is mostly about accepting that everything needs revision and learning how to do it.
Kind of an aside, but one of the practical problems here in teaching is that the good students will often work very hard on the first "draft" and so what they hand in originally is better than what many weaker students hand in after revision, and so if they actually get graded on changes they make then they actually have to "mess up" their draft intentionally in order to have things to "improve".
I don't understand the logic of grading a final draft based on changes made. The final paper should be graded on its quality.
That said, I haven't ever graded any paper or draft from a student that couldn't have been improved substantially. That's true even of exceptionally good papers. Its actually much easier as an editor to help students take something good they have worked hard on, and make it better.
Quote from: Caracal on May 13, 2021, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Kind of an aside, but one of the practical problems here in teaching is that the good students will often work very hard on the first "draft" and so what they hand in originally is better than what many weaker students hand in after revision, and so if they actually get graded on changes they make then they actually have to "mess up" their draft intentionally in order to have things to "improve".
I don't understand the logic of grading a final draft based on changes made. The final paper should be graded on its quality.
I agree. I grade the draft and final the same way, and if students are happy with the grade they get on the draft, they don't need to revise it.
Quote
That said, I haven't ever graded any paper or draft from a student that couldn't have been improved substantially. That's true even of exceptionally good papers. Its actually much easier as an editor to help students take something good they have worked hard on, and make it better.
Sure. It's more a matter of how they want to spend their time; whether it's worth doing incremental improvements on this versus putting more time into something else. (Especially late in the term as they get busy.)
One of my "D" students has been emailing my Chair about a grade change. I feel bad for the student, but this student does not know Physics and it was a miracle that stu got a "D." Stu wants 'extra credit' so that stu can get a "C" in the course.
Waiting to hear my Chair's response...
Quote from: ergative on May 13, 2021, 01:16:38 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 12, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
And yet another TA who just doesn't get the idea of fair & equitable grading.
No, you can't just be super lenient/lazy with grading because you "forgot" to do it on time. Giving full points for incorrect answers means that the students have no idea that their answers were incorrect. How is that helping them learn?
Yes I do notice and yes you will have to go back and RE-GRADE all of the damn assignments. I don't care that the students will be upset with you when they see their lower scores. I am upset with you and I have the power to block you from teaching this class again.
I have one TA who went too far the other way, and repeatedly flunked perfectly acceptable responses, two years in a row. I had to make him go back and regrade them all, both times. The second time he tried to argue with me, so then I had to shut him down about that too.
This year, a colleague suggested getting him to help out with final exam grading, but I shut that idea down right away.
I had two TAs at the same time that were polar opposites: one "I can't take off points! That's just mean!" and one "I dislike your choice of pen color! 0 points". Neither of them was willing to follow the rubric and I had to regrade everything. If I could have just kept ONE of them, at least it would have been consistently skewed.
Dear Cheaty Snowflake,
Ignoring the emails doesn't make it go away any more than refusing to sign a speeding ticket invalidates it.
Pro-tip: If you design two fun co-curricular assignments that are supposed to be easy-to-complete grade boosters, more students than you anticipated will forget to submit these assignments at the end of the semester (despite repeated reminders), thus harming their grades rather than helping.
And I'm the one who ends up feeling guilty about it!!
Quote from: dr_codex on May 13, 2021, 07:56:54 AM
All of you struggle to catch all the Chegg cheaters, don't despair! Help is at hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I)
(Brought to you by Chegg. Having created the problem, we know the solution!)
And we PROMISE to not post your questions during a 6 hour time period (of your choosing!).
If I rolled by eyes any harder, they'd get stuck.
I'd offer to test out the feature by showing them that a clever student will post any of the following to get around their "restrictions":
a screen capture of the question (it's not the question, it's a picture of the question!)
the question with a word or two added, removed, or changed (it's not THE question, it's just 99.99% similar!)
a rewritten question stem with the answers listed (it's not THAT question, it's a similar question with the same answers!)
And got to love how Chegg makes no mention of what they will do with your questions after the exam ends.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2021, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 13, 2021, 07:56:54 AM
All of you struggle to catch all the Chegg cheaters, don't despair! Help is at hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I)
(Brought to you by Chegg. Having created the problem, we know the solution!)
And we PROMISE to not post your questions during a 6 hour time period (of your choosing!).
If I rolled by eyes any harder, they'd get stuck.
I'd offer to test out the feature by showing them that a clever student will post any of the following to get around their "restrictions":
a screen capture of the question (it's not the question, it's a picture of the question!)
the question with a word or two added, removed, or changed (it's not THE question, it's just 99.99% similar!)
a rewritten question stem with the answers listed (it's not THAT question, it's a similar question with the same answers!)
And got to love how Chegg makes no mention of what they will do with your questions after the exam ends.
Sounds like a lot of what Chegg does ought to be opposable on intellectual property violation grounds.
Quote from: apl68 on May 18, 2021, 10:20:45 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2021, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on May 13, 2021, 07:56:54 AM
All of you struggle to catch all the Chegg cheaters, don't despair! Help is at hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJA32WsIS-I)
(Brought to you by Chegg. Having created the problem, we know the solution!)
And we PROMISE to not post your questions during a 6 hour time period (of your choosing!).
If I rolled by eyes any harder, they'd get stuck.
I'd offer to test out the feature by showing them that a clever student will post any of the following to get around their "restrictions":
a screen capture of the question (it's not the question, it's a picture of the question!)
the question with a word or two added, removed, or changed (it's not THE question, it's just 99.99% similar!)
a rewritten question stem with the answers listed (it's not THAT question, it's a similar question with the same answers!)
And got to love how Chegg makes no mention of what they will do with your questions after the exam ends.
Sounds like a lot of what Chegg does ought to be opposable on intellectual property violation grounds.
Yes, I am constantly asking for my course materials to be removed based on a violation of copyright. If you write the questions, then they are yours. Students are free to share their answers, since those are their property. But the answers are often useless without the questions so they generally post the questions too.
If publishers bother to check, they could also get their materials removed too.
I just graded a lackluster paper about cancer. The student chose the topic because his parent died of cancer. I felt bad giving him the grade the paper warranted, but I did it anyway. Ugh.
Others of you are probably more accustomed to grading papers on topics that students have a strong emotional connection to. Usually my students' emotional connections are more like "I'm writing my paper about sharks because sharks are cool."
I had a student who wanted to do a research project on genital herpes because she contracted it when she was raped. I successfully talked her out of that idea.
Quote from: Liquidambar on May 18, 2021, 06:38:43 PM
Usually my students' emotional connections are more like "I'm writing my paper about sharks because sharks are cool."
The best possible reason there is. We should all be so lucky to have such students.
Quote from: mythbuster on May 18, 2021, 07:35:59 PM
I had a student who wanted to do a research project on genital herpes because she contracted it when she was raped. I successfully talked her out of that idea.
Why did you think that was such a bad idea? Lots of people become interested in a topic because of a traumatic personal experience of some sort.
Quote from: Liquidambar on May 18, 2021, 06:38:43 PM
I just graded a lackluster paper about cancer. The student chose the topic because his parent died of cancer. I felt bad giving him the grade the paper warranted, but I did it anyway. Ugh.
Others of you are probably more accustomed to grading papers on topics that students have a strong emotional connection to. Usually my students' emotional connections are more like "I'm writing my paper about sharks because sharks are cool."
I've had to grade worse than mediocre papers on similar topics. While the emotional connection is strong, the quality of writing is weak. I give extensive feedback on how to revise these assignments.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 19, 2021, 06:31:18 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on May 18, 2021, 06:38:43 PM
I just graded a lackluster paper about cancer. The student chose the topic because his parent died of cancer. I felt bad giving him the grade the paper warranted, but I did it anyway. Ugh.
Others of you are probably more accustomed to grading papers on topics that students have a strong emotional connection to. Usually my students' emotional connections are more like "I'm writing my paper about sharks because sharks are cool."
I've had to grade worse than mediocre papers on similar topics. While the emotional connection is strong, the quality of writing is weak. I give extensive feedback on how to revise these assignments.
This was the final version--no chance for revisions. I looked at my old emails to verify that the student had ignored multiple suggestions from me to discuss his progress and get feedback.
Quote from: ergative on May 19, 2021, 01:37:31 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on May 18, 2021, 06:38:43 PM
Usually my students' emotional connections are more like "I'm writing my paper about sharks because sharks are cool."
The best possible reason there is. We should all be so lucky to have such students.
One student was particularly known for this. He wrote papers about sharks for all his classes.
Two students writing about a particular text both began their paper with a long discussion of the superego, which was completely irrelevant to the topic. I was confused by the first one, but when I came across a second paper doing the same thing, I was truly baffled. So I went back to check the reading I'd given them--maybe the assigned text actually did go on some bizarre tangent about the superego that I'd just forgotten??
Turns out, the reading I had given the students was a pdf scanned from a book. The book in question was a reader with a bunch of excerpts. The excerpt I had assigned them to read began on the right-hand side of the first page of the pdf, the assigned excerpt clearly marked by a heading with the author's name and title. The left-hand side of the scan was occupied by the tail-end of whatever the previous excerpt was in the reader, which appears to have been something by Freud.
I had thought myself well-apprised of the foibles of the modern student, but it really had not occurred to me that this could be confusing.
Quote from: qualiyah on May 27, 2021, 03:59:34 PM
Two students writing about a particular text both began their paper with a long discussion of the superego, which was completely irrelevant to the topic. I was confused by the first one, but when I came across a second paper doing the same thing, I was truly baffled. So I went back to check the reading I'd given them--maybe the assigned text actually did go on some bizarre tangent about the superego that I'd just forgotten??
Turns out, the reading I had given the students was a pdf scanned from a book. The book in question was a reader with a bunch of excerpts. The excerpt I had assigned them to read began on the right-hand side of the first page of the pdf, the assigned excerpt clearly marked by a heading with the author's name and title. The left-hand side of the scan was occupied by the tail-end of whatever the previous excerpt was in the reader, which appears to have been something by Freud.
I had thought myself well-apprised of the foibles of the modern student, but it really had not occurred to me that this could be confusing.
Lol!
I've occasionally been caught up by that, and started reading at the tail end of whatever, although I was always quick to notice my mistake.
(Also, that's a very well-chosen moniker!)
One of my teaching assistants found some of our course material on one of the infamous "we are here to help you learn" websites. I have notified the website of the posting of academic course material, so we will see if it gets removed. However, from the student perspective, this was a waste of energy since, for this assessment, we allow an infinite number of attempts with the same question and the same multiple choice answers (re-shuffled). So, really, looking for the answers on the internet is much more work than just clicking, and then clicking again.
Seriously?! Seriously?! This is graduate school. I don't think I should have to even say "don't plagiarize." I'm pretty sure you should know that by now, but in order to make sure that you know what is expected in this course and that I'm not making assumptions about what you do or do not know after two semesters of graduate school (and because of all the crap that when down last semester, when I had 3 academic integrity cases in a class of 20 graduate students), I have:
1. put the academic integrity policy on the syllabus
2. conducted a paraphrasing exercise during the 1st day of class for the relevant citation style for this course
3. put on the assignment--summarize the article "in your own words" as a reminder
And still! STILL! You copy and paste entire sentences! Did you not think I would notice? Did you not think I would care? Are you really going to fail this class because you could not bother to write a brief summary of 4 articles?
I would have thought the rumor mill about how much I am a hardass about this would be enough to clue you in that I am actually series, but apparently not because this is just egregious and now I have to spend my holiday documenting this crap so I'm ready to have a meeting this and give you an opportunity to explain what the heck you were thinking before I take this to student conduct. Gah!
Quote from: qualiyah on May 27, 2021, 03:59:34 PM
Two students writing about a particular text both began their paper with a long discussion of the superego, which was completely irrelevant to the topic. I was confused by the first one, but when I came across a second paper doing the same thing, I was truly baffled. So I went back to check the reading I'd given them--maybe the assigned text actually did go on some bizarre tangent about the superego that I'd just forgotten??
Turns out, the reading I had given the students was a pdf scanned from a book. The book in question was a reader with a bunch of excerpts. The excerpt I had assigned them to read began on the right-hand side of the first page of the pdf, the assigned excerpt clearly marked by a heading with the author's name and title. The left-hand side of the scan was occupied by the tail-end of whatever the previous excerpt was in the reader, which appears to have been something by Freud.
I had thought myself well-apprised of the foibles of the modern student, but it really had not occurred to me that this could be confusing.
This happened for the first time, that I can remember, in an undergrad class. I assigned a research article from Science. The article ended at the top of page 3 with a second article at the bottom. Ok, the second article was on a similar topic but clearly different given the style of the article title in larger bold font and the different authors. I was going crazy trying to find the obviously-quoted material in the assigned article. It was from the unassigned article of course. Next time I will explain the different parts of the article or insert a white box to cover the unassigned article. On one hand, what?!?! On the other hand, not everyone is an observant reader.
Haha! You're giving me flashbacks to my first term as a freshman. I was taking a class that said the reading for week 1 was 1-12 in the book. I got through Chapter 7 or so of taking careful notes & trying the practice problems and had a bit of a panic since it covered SO MUCH material. College was supposed to be hard, but I didn't think it meant 1/3 of the textbook in a week. I then realized the reading was PAGES 1-12, aka chapter 1.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 31, 2021, 08:12:45 AM
Haha! You're giving me flashbacks to my first term as a freshman. I was taking a class that said the reading for week 1 was 1-12 in the book. I got through Chapter 7 or so of taking careful notes & trying the practice problems and had a bit of a panic since it covered SO MUCH material. College was supposed to be hard, but I didn't think it meant 1/3 of the textbook in a week. I then realized the reading was PAGES 1-12, aka chapter 1.
Wow! I will always remember that now when writing out the reading instructions and be reassured that the extra few minutes to be specific are worth it for students :-)
Dear students,
Your final exam is Friday. Yes, I know that [other class] also has a final exam on Friday. No, you cannot take the final exam for this class another day. Your exam is available ALL DAY on Friday. You can choose what time to take it. I suggest you use your time wisely.
Dr. Geneticist
Students are required to upload their working for exams, in addition to submitting the answers directly. No working, no points. They're supposed to use their full name as file name. Some didn't but wrote down their names in their submissions. But someone didn't put down their name anywhere. Since there are two exams missing a submission, it's not immediately obvious whose is it. I'm not really willing to do the detective work needed to try and figure it out; I uploaded a list of grades, expecting that seeing a zero would make the anonymous student contact me. Nope.
Lab reports are submitted via Blackboard, with a required naming and format convention. If it isn't followed, they aren't accepted.
The first lab report had 100% compliance (a first!). The second, only 33%. Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth commence.
The final exam was last week Friday. I contacted the handful of folks who missed it, but still showed as registered for the class. All except 1 got back to me to say that they had filed for a late withdrawal & still waiting for the form to be proceeded.
The 1 student emailed me YESTERDAY to say they "didn't realize" the class had a final exam and were "completely unaware" that they'd missed it and could they please take it on Friday after they finish the rest of their exams.
I'm so tempted to let that 0 stand.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 10:46:53 AM
The final exam was last week Friday. I contacted the handful of folks who missed it, but still showed as registered for the class. All except 1 got back to me to say that they had filed for a late withdrawal & still waiting for the form to be proceeded.
The 1 student emailed me YESTERDAY to say they "didn't realize" the class had a final exam and were "completely unaware" that they'd missed it and could they please take it on Friday after they finish the rest of their exams.
I'm so tempted to let that 0 stand.
Assuming that you had alerted students about the exam and made it clear from the start that there would be an exam, the NO answer seems straightforward. A student would have to work to win me over to let them take it. I had a slightly similar case last semester and eventually the student's tale of woe was enough to convince me.
I received this on Tuesday.
Hi, I'm enrolled in your College Comp II class. I'm emailing you to make sure you received my final draft for the standard argument titled "College Debate". It says it was submitted successfully but I unfortunately sent my rough draft to you as well titled "College Argument". I just wanted to clear up any confusion and make sure you grade the right essay, because I worked very hard on it. Thank you for your time and you have a good one.
Well. . . .
-- 1. Spring semester ended May 15.
-- 2. I don't recognize the student's name.
-- 3. We use a mandatory "course of record" for Comp II online, and there's no essay by that title. The first essay in the semester is sort of related though--which again begs the question: the semester's done a month ago, and this maybe-related paper was due in Week 3 of that semester.
-- 4. I got to looking further, and this guy took the class from me in Spring 2020.
Seriously?
It's waited this long. It can wait awhile longer. . . .
Quote from: downer on June 10, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 10:46:53 AM
The final exam was last week Friday. I contacted the handful of folks who missed it, but still showed as registered for the class. All except 1 got back to me to say that they had filed for a late withdrawal & still waiting for the form to be proceeded.
The 1 student emailed me YESTERDAY to say they "didn't realize" the class had a final exam and were "completely unaware" that they'd missed it and could they please take it on Friday after they finish the rest of their exams.
I'm so tempted to let that 0 stand.
Assuming that you had alerted students about the exam and made it clear from the start that there would be an exam, the NO answer seems straightforward. A student would have to work to win me over to let them take it. I had a slightly similar case last semester and eventually the student's tale of woe was enough to convince me.
It was on the syllabus on the first day of class. I posted a study guide. I sent out reminder emails.
The student claims that they thought that they had already taken it since they remember taking an exam that day. I checked and they did have a midterm in a DIFFERENT CLASS.
The student has now emailed to apologize, begged for a second chance, and promised to buy and use a paper day planner from now on.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 02:43:18 PM
Quote from: downer on June 10, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 10:46:53 AM
The final exam was last week Friday. I contacted the handful of folks who missed it, but still showed as registered for the class. All except 1 got back to me to say that they had filed for a late withdrawal & still waiting for the form to be proceeded.
The 1 student emailed me YESTERDAY to say they "didn't realize" the class had a final exam and were "completely unaware" that they'd missed it and could they please take it on Friday after they finish the rest of their exams.
I'm so tempted to let that 0 stand.
Assuming that you had alerted students about the exam and made it clear from the start that there would be an exam, the NO answer seems straightforward. A student would have to work to win me over to let them take it. I had a slightly similar case last semester and eventually the student's tale of woe was enough to convince me.
It was on the syllabus on the first day of class. I posted a study guide. I sent out reminder emails.
The student claims that they thought that they had already taken it since they remember taking an exam that day. I checked and they did have a midterm in a DIFFERENT CLASS.
The student has now emailed to apologize, begged for a second chance, and promised to buy and use a paper day planner from now on.
I'd just let them take it. My feeling about boneheaded mistakes is that a basically conscientious student will learn their lesson from something like this. If the problem goes beyond organization and attention to important details, the student is going to reap the consequences of that. You don't have to impose a punishment.
Quote from: Caracal on June 11, 2021, 07:01:21 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 02:43:18 PM
Quote from: downer on June 10, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 10, 2021, 10:46:53 AM
The final exam was last week Friday. I contacted the handful of folks who missed it, but still showed as registered for the class. All except 1 got back to me to say that they had filed for a late withdrawal & still waiting for the form to be proceeded.
The 1 student emailed me YESTERDAY to say they "didn't realize" the class had a final exam and were "completely unaware" that they'd missed it and could they please take it on Friday after they finish the rest of their exams.
I'm so tempted to let that 0 stand.
Assuming that you had alerted students about the exam and made it clear from the start that there would be an exam, the NO answer seems straightforward. A student would have to work to win me over to let them take it. I had a slightly similar case last semester and eventually the student's tale of woe was enough to convince me.
It was on the syllabus on the first day of class. I posted a study guide. I sent out reminder emails.
The student claims that they thought that they had already taken it since they remember taking an exam that day. I checked and they did have a midterm in a DIFFERENT CLASS.
The student has now emailed to apologize, begged for a second chance, and promised to buy and use a paper day planner from now on.
I'd just let them take it. My feeling about boneheaded mistakes is that a basically conscientious student will learn their lesson from something like this. If the problem goes beyond organization and attention to important details, the student is going to reap the consequences of that. You don't have to impose a punishment.
I'm letting them take it. I also hope they have learned the lesson of "know what is due in your classes".
The part I'm boggled about is, don't you have to study differently for a different test?
Wouldn't you remember which test you studied for?
Wouldn't you want to be sure you studied for the right one to begin with?
I think I'm more confused by this, possibly, than they seem to be, or to have been...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on June 11, 2021, 11:01:56 AM
The part I'm boggled about is, don't you have to study differently for a different test?
Wouldn't you remember which test you studied for?
Wouldn't you want to be sure you studied for the right one to begin with?
I think I'm more confused by this, possibly, than they seem to be, or to have been...
M.
I would have thought so too! But I'm learning that will 500+ freshmen students in a class, you just get more of the rare & unusual things. . . .
My money is on this student being a borderline passing student at best anyway. Good students get their calendar se in the first week. It's easier all around to just let them take it, and let the chips fall where they may.
I would let them take it, but with some % penalty right off the top. Just to get their attention a bit.
Quote from: mythbuster on June 11, 2021, 12:37:51 PM
My money is on this student being a borderline passing student at best anyway. Good students get their calendar se in the first week. It's easier all around to just let them take it, and let the chips fall where they may.
I certainly never did that, but I obsessively checked what was due in the last couple of weeks.
What if the student takes the test and gets a very solid A, esp if he has not been carrying anything resembling an A average to date? What then?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 30, 2021, 07:20:28 PM
Seriously?! Seriously?! This is graduate school. I don't think I should have to even say "don't plagiarize." I'm pretty sure you should know that by now, but in order to make sure that you know what is expected in this course and that I'm not making assumptions about what you do or do not know after two semesters of graduate school (and because of all the crap that when down last semester, when I had 3 academic integrity cases in a class of 20 graduate students), I have:
1. put the academic integrity policy on the syllabus
2. conducted a paraphrasing exercise during the 1st day of class for the relevant citation style for this course
3. put on the assignment--summarize the article "in your own words" as a reminder
And still! STILL! You copy and paste entire sentences! Did you not think I would notice? Did you not think I would care? Are you really going to fail this class because you could not bother to write a brief summary of 4 articles?
I would have thought the rumor mill about how much I am a hardass about this would be enough to clue you in that I am actually series, but apparently not because this is just egregious and now I have to spend my holiday documenting this crap so I'm ready to have a meeting this and give you an opportunity to explain what the heck you were thinking before I take this to student conduct. Gah!
I know that pain! A colleague of mine just had the same (graduate) student I had earlier in the year. The same student that you seem to be describing here. When the student was (again) caught plagiarizing, commented that they had gotten the same feedback in another class. Then they asked if the prof could again explain what plagiarizing was. I walked them through it the first time. Did I mention this is graduate school?
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 13, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
What if the student takes the test and gets a very solid A, esp if he has not been carrying anything resembling an A average to date? What then?
I've only seen that happen once. And it's because the student was not great at molecular bio, but was fantastic at stats. He switched to a math major.
The student this Spring got a C+ on the final exam, same score as on the midterms.
Not my problem, but it's still aggravating... I have recorded, in no less than three different places, the correct file format for lab reports. Miraculously, 95% of the class follows the directions, but there are always those who do not. Why, student, are you sending me a file with a 'pages' extension? Why?
We are approaching the last week of summer online classees, and suddenly Miss Mediocrity s constantly emailing with important questions that are answered in the syllabus, such as what is due today, and where is the reading. Although student does not have time to zoom or read my comments on their work, I sent screenshots of the syllabus and relevant tabs in the LMS, then resorted to a hotlink, but they still can't be bothered. I suspect they never purchased the reader, and only the extra readings are posted online, by that's a different issue. Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
We are approaching the last week of summer online classees, and suddenly Miss Mediocrity s constantly emailing with important questions that are answered in the syllabus, such as what is due today, and where is the reading. Although student does not have time to zoom or read my comments on their work, I sent screenshots of the syllabus and relevant tabs in the LMS, then resorted to a hotlink, but they still can't be bothered. I suspect they never purchased the reader, and only the extra readings are posted online, by that's a different issue. Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
But that would mean actually
reading, something that many college students go to great lengths to avoid!
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
At that stage I have no interest in engaging in any dialog with them. It is too late.
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
I second this request.
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 08:01:11 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
I second this request.
Me too!
Our summer classses are "pay as you go" so I've been told I can't drop non-attending students because they have paid to take the class. Even if the waitlist is full and dropping them would open a seat for a student who actually showed up.
Quote from: downer on June 17, 2021, 07:22:51 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
At that stage I have no interest in engaging in any dialog with them. It is too late.
Exactly. That's the point. You don't field the response.
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 10:49:36 AM
Quote from: downer on June 17, 2021, 07:22:51 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
At that stage I have no interest in engaging in any dialog with them. It is too late.
Exactly. That's the point. You don't field the response.
Nobody should field the response, other than to say "The course is being offered again next year. You're welcome to sign up and
do the work then."
Quote from: marshwiggle on June 17, 2021, 10:54:50 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 10:49:36 AM
Quote from: downer on June 17, 2021, 07:22:51 AM
Quote from: dr_codex on June 17, 2021, 07:11:39 AM
Quote from: FishProf on June 17, 2021, 05:58:14 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 17, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
Why, oh why, can't they read the syllabus?
Wrong question. Why WON'T they read it. They choose to not do so.
Which is why I have a syllabus quiz.
Hmmmm. Even then, some don't even read the announcements enough to know there IS a syllabus quiz. I had a student last week (week 4of7) asking when he would see a quiz to take and why his grade was showing up as a Zero.
I would be lying if I said it was the first time I've seen this happen.
This is why we need Administrative Drops. Notifications from the Registrar that you've been removed from a course tend to get a response.
At that stage I have no interest in engaging in any dialog with them. It is too late.
Exactly. That's the point. You don't field the response.
Nobody should field the response, other than to say "The course is being offered again next year. You're welcome to sign up and do the work then."
Not quite.
Non-attendance isn't the same thing as attending and failing, as far as things like financial aid are concerned. But it is an administrative issue, not an instructional one.
Ha! I do have a syllabus quiz, and I would sorely love to ignore the emails. Sadly, the department has an exceptionally low tolerance for student complaints, and their b.s. meter is busted. Miss Mediocrity has now advanced to arguing about the grades after scouring the comments they've ignored for weeks.
Quote from: peitho on June 18, 2021, 12:52:24 AM
Ha! I do have a syllabus quiz, and I would sorely love to ignore the emails. Sadly, the department has an exceptionally low tolerance for student complaints, and their b.s. meter is busted. Miss Mediocrity has now advanced to arguing about the grades after scouring the comments they've ignored for weeks.
And THAT is why my syllabus says you've got a week to challenge a grade, then we move on.
Quote from: FishProf on June 18, 2021, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 18, 2021, 12:52:24 AM
Ha! I do have a syllabus quiz, and I would sorely love to ignore the emails. Sadly, the department has an exceptionally low tolerance for student complaints, and their b.s. meter is busted. Miss Mediocrity has now advanced to arguing about the grades after scouring the comments they've ignored for weeks.
And THAT is why my syllabus says you've got a week to challenge a grade, then we move on.
Mine too. And mine also says that I can regrade the entire assignment.
Quote from: FishProf on June 18, 2021, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: peitho on June 18, 2021, 12:52:24 AM
Ha! I do have a syllabus quiz, and I would sorely love to ignore the emails. Sadly, the department has an exceptionally low tolerance for student complaints, and their b.s. meter is busted. Miss Mediocrity has now advanced to arguing about the grades after scouring the comments they've ignored for weeks.
And THAT is why my syllabus says you've got a week to challenge a grade, then we move on.
+1. I also have students revise their graded essays one more time for a small grade, so I can make sure they understand what I've noted and see if they have any questions about the grade (I teach mostly Comp.). This has helped eliminate end-of-semester grade grubbing to about zero.
My instructions: You will be provided with X on the exam. You are not expected to create X for the exam.
Student question: Just to be clear, we do not have to create X for the exam?
How could I have been more clear?
OK students, just because it's POSSIBLE to take both [pottery II with lab] and [10 weeks of baskets III with lab crammed into 5 weeks] in the summer, doesn't mean that you should.
Unless you:
1) have ZERO other commitments (no job, no kids, no commuting, heck no real hobbies either)
2) LOVE [pottery & baskets]
3) are super-organized & a self-motivated student who needs little guidance
and
4) enjoy/don't hate all online classes.
then just DON'T DO IT. Just take 1 or the other. Taking both & failing one or both is worse than taking just 1 and passing.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 18, 2021, 12:46:32 PM
My instructions: You will be provided with X on the exam. You are not expected to create X for the exam.
Student question: Just to be clear, we do not have to create X for the exam?
How could I have been more clear?
This used to drive me batty(er) until I took an online class (just for funzies) with a professor who would constantly send out conflicting emails. For example, one email would say, "X will be provided" and the next one would say, "Don't forget to find and attach X when you submit." It was quite unnerving, even for an experienced student like myself.
While such student emails still make me a little bonkers, I remind myself of what students sometimes see in other courses.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 21, 2021, 09:40:19 AM
OK students, just because it's POSSIBLE to take both [pottery II with lab] and [10 weeks of baskets III with lab crammed into 5 weeks] in the summer, doesn't mean that you should.
Unless you:
1) have ZERO other commitments (no job, no kids, no commuting, heck no real hobbies either)
2) LOVE [pottery & baskets]
3) are super-organized & a self-motivated student who needs little guidance
and
4) enjoy/don't hate all online classes.
then just DON'T DO IT. Just take 1 or the other. Taking both & failing one or both is worse than taking just 1 and passing.
I've noticed over here over the years that there seems to be a chronic problem with students overloading themselves on commitments, for whatever reason. I guess they're in a real hurry to pass and have it all done.
Quote from: apl68 on June 22, 2021, 07:28:20 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 21, 2021, 09:40:19 AM
OK students, just because it's POSSIBLE to take both [pottery II with lab] and [10 weeks of baskets III with lab crammed into 5 weeks] in the summer, doesn't mean that you should.
Unless you:
1) have ZERO other commitments (no job, no kids, no commuting, heck no real hobbies either)
2) LOVE [pottery & baskets]
3) are super-organized & a self-motivated student who needs little guidance
and
4) enjoy/don't hate all online classes.
then just DON'T DO IT. Just take 1 or the other. Taking both & failing one or both is worse than taking just 1 and passing.
I've noticed over here over the years that there seems to be a chronic problem with students overloading themselves on commitments, for whatever reason. I guess they're in a real hurry to pass and have it all done.
Our students aren't necessarily in a hurry to graduate, but they often have "complicated" lives where they have important commitments other than just being a student & are not on track to graduate in 4 years. They are hoping to get caught up by taking an overload in the summer.
Many of them have jobs, family obligations, commute, etc. Add in the fact that many do not have their own computer or reliable internet and online classes are just a recipe for disaster. Even when classes are in person, the summer accelerated classes have a really high failure rate since missing a day or two is the equivalent of being a week behind. It's brutal.
I give my students a "get out of jail free" card which allows them to submit one assignment a week late. At least in some classes. Not all. It works pretty well.
Procurement - I hate you.
This isn't hard. I do it every non-Covid semester.
1) I schedule my final at [Regional Museum]
2) You buy tickets using the lab fees we charged students.
3) We go to museum and I run the final.
4) You reimburse for mileage and parking.
End
When Covid closed the museums, we couldn't go b/c the Museum wouldn't let us. You probably wouldn't have let us either, but that was moot.
NOW, the state has lifted most restrictions. The museum is open. They won't let us have a large group, but they are OK with a small one.
They recommend family-only groups (of 6 or less).
So why are you denying me taking my class to the museum? You say it is b/c the Uni's policy says to follow all local and CDC guidelines. We are.
You say these student groups break the museums families-only RULE.
I say RECOMMENDATION.
The museum says RECOMMENDATION.
Also, why did it take 3-weeks to process the paperwork to say no?
Quote from: FishProf on June 24, 2021, 07:28:12 AM
Procurement - I hate you.
This isn't hard. I do it every non-Covid semester.
1) I schedule my final at [Regional Museum]
2) You buy tickets using the lab fees we charged students.
3) We go to museum and I run the final.
4) You reimburse for mileage and parking.
End
When Covid closed the museums, we couldn't go b/c the Museum wouldn't let us. You probably wouldn't have let us either, but that was moot.
NOW, the state has lifted most restrictions. The museum is open. They won't let us have a large group, but they are OK with a small one.
They recommend family-only groups (of 6 or less).
So why are you denying me taking my class to the museum? You say it is b/c the Uni's policy says to follow all local and CDC guidelines. We are.
You say these student groups break the museums families-only RULE.
I say RECOMMENDATION.
The museum says RECOMMENDATION.
Also, why did it take 3-weeks to process the paperwork to say no?
Sorry to hear that FishProf. Our procurement folks added eleventy-billion extra steps to get reimbursed for anything this year. Our theory is that they hope people will give up and the University will use the money not claimed to pay for our athletic programs or one of the newly hired administrators.
Your museum final sounds awesome (I think you've described it before on the fora).
If your students paid lab fees to in part pay for their museum experience, will they get their lab fees returned since procurement won't let them go to the museum?
Ah-ha.
I wonder if the procurement people really want to generate a scenario in which already-paid student funds are returned to them....
....maybe a bit of leverage, there...?
(no, I am neither crafty, nor cynical)...
M.
Student in accelerated summer session just contacted me to let me know that they are likely to be missing assignments or turning them in late because reasons.
"Many thanks in advance, as I know this may be upsetting."
Not upsetting for me, but probably for you when you re-read the syllabus language I just sent you about late and missing work. I actually have a lot of humane practices built in (dropping lowest couple of assignments, one exam replacement, revision opportunities) but not so humane that you can just not do the work.
Quote from: Istiblennius on June 24, 2021, 09:35:46 AM
Student in accelerated summer session just contacted me to let me know that they are likely to be missing assignments or turning them in late because reasons.
"Many thanks in advance, as I know this may be upsetting."
Not upsetting for me, but probably for you when you re-read the syllabus language I just sent you about late and missing work. I actually have a lot of humane practices built in (dropping lowest couple of assignments, one exam replacement, revision opportunities) but not so humane that you can just not do the work.
The student may need a reminder that getting behind in an accelerated class is a VERY BAD plan. We have classes here that are: "Welcome to Accelerated Basketweaving with Lab! Your first exam is Thursday afternoon".
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 24, 2021, 10:20:18 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on June 24, 2021, 09:35:46 AM
Student in accelerated summer session just contacted me to let me know that they are likely to be missing assignments or turning them in late because reasons.
"Many thanks in advance, as I know this may be upsetting."
Not upsetting for me, but probably for you when you re-read the syllabus language I just sent you about late and missing work. I actually have a lot of humane practices built in (dropping lowest couple of assignments, one exam replacement, revision opportunities) but not so humane that you can just not do the work.
The student may need a reminder that getting behind in an accelerated class is a VERY BAD plan. We have classes here that are: "Welcome to Accelerated Basketweaving with Lab! Your first exam is Thursday afternoon".
Yes. The policy I add for short summer courses: "If you are not ahead in the class, you are behind in the class. There is no such thing as being 'caught-up' in an accelerated course."
Quote from: Istiblennius on June 24, 2021, 09:35:46 AM
Student in accelerated summer session just contacted me to let me know that they are likely to be missing assignments or turning them in late because reasons.
"Many thanks in advance, as I know this may be upsetting."
Not upsetting for me, but probably for you when you re-read the syllabus language I just sent you about late and missing work. I actually have a lot of humane practices built in (dropping lowest couple of assignments, one exam replacement, revision opportunities) but not so humane that you can just not do the work.
I hate when students think I'm going to have a lot of feelings about their performance or work. Sure, its satisfying when students do well and work hard, but I'm not personally offended when they don't. That's their business.
When students apologize to me for not doing work I tell them not to. I emphasize they are doing the work for themselves, not for me.
I refrain from telling them that I am always grateful to have less student work to grade.
Friends and neighbors, we have a drop! I can't believe one of them actually took to heart that maybe their plan to do accelerated summer session wasn't aligned with their plan to turn in all their work late.
Quote from: Istiblennius on June 25, 2021, 12:22:26 PM
Friends and neighbors, we have a drop! I can't believe one of them actually took to heart that maybe their plan to do accelerated summer session wasn't aligned with their plan to turn in all their work late.
Great! If you could bottle that, and sell it to instructors everywhere to spritz on their classes during the first week, you could make billions!
Dear student, the calculation for your final grade is very clearly spelled out in the syllabus. Why are you asking questions like, "If I get a 75% in video quizzes, and that's 25% of the final grade, then that's like getting 18.75 points out of a hundred towards my final grade, right?"
Technically, yes. Practically, so what? Why are you asking? And why did you think trying to run through THREE DIFFERENT EXAMPLES of this was worthwhile in preparing for the final.
It isn't hard:
1) Complete any remaining quizzes to the best of your ability.
2) Get the highest score you can on the final.
3) Let the chips fall where they may.
That's it. There isn't any other strategy to employ.
This is like planning strategy in the 100m hurdles. Run as fast as you can, jump over each hurdle, cross the finish line first. THERE IS NO OTHER STRATEGY.
Why the hell do students write little passive-aggressive notes to me in their lab reports? Why not just send me an email and ask your damn questions instead of stating that I need to make a video, hold your hand and walk you through the lab.
JC!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 26, 2021, 02:24:02 PM
Why the hell do students write little passive-aggressive notes to me in their lab reports? Why not just send me an email and ask your damn questions instead of stating that I need to make a video, hold your hand and walk you through the lab.
JC!
So, it's not just me then? My basketweaving statistics students did the same thing this year on their homework answers, complaining that the questions were unclear or too hard. One student decided to leave me snarky comments in their final exam answers, despite the fact that I was proctoring the final through the LMS and could have answered their questions during the exam.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 27, 2021, 10:47:42 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 26, 2021, 02:24:02 PM
Why the hell do students write little passive-aggressive notes to me in their lab reports? Why not just send me an email and ask your damn questions instead of stating that I need to make a video, hold your hand and walk you through the lab.
JC!
So, it's not just me then? My basketweaving statistics students did the same thing this year on their homework answers, complaining that the questions were unclear or too hard. One student decided to leave me snarky comments in their final exam answers, despite the fact that I was proctoring the final through the LMS and could have answered their questions during the exam.
Nope, not just you. I wish I knew why they did this! I post numerous announcements, reminders, etc. All they have to do is ask.
*Fantasy response sung to the tune of the Daria theme song*
You need to drop the course.
La la la.
You haven't done any work.
You need to drop the courrrsssse.
La la la la la.
More head banging and I'm not even listening to metal. Ba dum bum!
Anyway, a student turned in a lab report with 885 % error. Hmm. Stu also reported a measurement from a graph, but there's no graph on this report.
Sigh. These lab reports are seriously depressing the hell out of me.
And these are the folks who will become the bench scientists who will design and test our vaccines in the future.
Just to put it all in a more cheerful context...
;--}
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 01, 2021, 04:59:17 PM
And these are the folks who will become the bench scientists who will design and test our vaccines in the future.
Just to put it all in a more cheerful context...
;--}
M.
I really hope not. Well, I hope that their critical thinking skills improve by at least 885%.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 07:19:45 PM
I really hope not. Well, I hope that their critical thinking skills improve by at least 885%.
And 885% of 0 is ...
Quote from: kiana on July 02, 2021, 09:19:03 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 07:19:45 PM
I really hope not. Well, I hope that their critical thinking skills improve by at least 885%.
And 885% of 0 is ...
Lol. I don't think their skills are nonexistent (close maybe), but I get your point.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
More head banging and I'm not even listening to metal. Ba dum bum!
Anyway, a student turned in a lab report with 885 % error. Hmm. Stu also reported a measurement from a graph, but there's no graph on this report.
Sigh. These lab reports are seriously depressing the hell out of me.
EPW, I hereby award you "The Most Head Banged Professor of the Year" medal of honor.
ETA Hope you have better students next semester.
Grrr. My pandemic incomplete student just won't go away! Over one year after getting an incomplete because student got stuck in a Caribbean country over Spring Beak 2020 (not a smart move!), I now have a panicked email about why do I have an F?! It's because you only get 1 year to complete the remaining assignments! If it were up to me you would only get 2 months!
Thankfully I can now dump her on the Dean of Students. She really should just retake the class at this point I sincerely doubt that she remembers any of it.
Quote from: mythbuster on July 02, 2021, 10:47:40 AM
Grrr. My pandemic incomplete student just won't go away! Over one year after getting an incomplete because student got stuck in a Caribbean country over Spring Beak 2020 (not a smart move!), I now have a panicked email about why do I have an F?! It's because you only get 1 year to complete the remaining assignments! If it were up to me you would only get 2 months!
Thankfully I can now dump her on the Dean of Students. She really should just retake the class at this point I sincerely doubt that she remembers any of it.
Wowsers. Just . . . wowsers!
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 02, 2021, 10:43:35 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 01, 2021, 04:13:25 PM
More head banging and I'm not even listening to metal. Ba dum bum!
Anyway, a student turned in a lab report with 885 % error. Hmm. Stu also reported a measurement from a graph, but there's no graph on this report.
Sigh. These lab reports are seriously depressing the hell out of me.
EPW, I hereby award you "The Most Head Banged Professor of the Year" medal of honor.
ETA Hope you have better students next semester.
Lol. Thanks.
Quote from: mythbuster on July 02, 2021, 10:47:40 AM
Grrr. My pandemic incomplete student just won't go away! Over one year after getting an incomplete because student got stuck in a Caribbean country over Spring Beak 2020 (not a smart move!), I now have a panicked email about why do I have an F?! It's because you only get 1 year to complete the remaining assignments! If it were up to me you would only get 2 months!
Thankfully I can now dump her on the Dean of Students. She really should just retake the class at this point I sincerely doubt that she remembers any of it.
Daaaaang!
Quote from: mythbuster on July 02, 2021, 10:47:40 AM
Grrr. My pandemic incomplete student just won't go away! Over one year after getting an incomplete because student got stuck in a Caribbean country over Spring Beak 2020 (not a smart move!), I now have a panicked email about why do I have an F?! It's because you only get 1 year to complete the remaining assignments! If it were up to me you would only get 2 months!
Thankfully I can now dump her on the Dean of Students. She really should just retake the class at this point I sincerely doubt that she remembers any of it.
Facing a mini-version of this. Stu failed the class months ago, but "only just now" noticed that Stu had "an incomplete".
To say that Stu took a lot for granted, including a passing grade, would be an understatement.
Quote from: mythbuster on July 02, 2021, 10:47:40 AM
Grrr. My pandemic incomplete student just won't go away! Over one year after getting an incomplete because student got stuck in a Caribbean country over Spring Beak 2020 (not a smart move!), I now have a panicked email about why do I have an F?! It's because you only get 1 year to complete the remaining assignments! If it were up to me you would only get 2 months!
Thankfully I can now dump her on the Dean of Students. She really should just retake the class at this point I sincerely doubt that she remembers any of it.
Mine should commence a-screamin' in a couple of weeks--no quarantine in a foreign country, but similar cluelessness, I anticipate. I've sent reminders at the end of last fall and this spring semesters--crickets. Let it turn to an F, though, and I'm sure all hell will break loose. (Then I'll have another one, come the end of fall, when hers also turns to an F.)
I can count on two fingers the times I've agreed to incompletes over my 24 years of teaching, before these two. This kind of thing is exactly why I don't give them.
Student has not done any work so far in the class and we are halfway through. Emailed me to say that they didn't complete any work this past week because it was the 90 day deadline for them to file some legal paperwork and they have limited access to computers. Can they make up the work?
What about the other weeks of class you missed? Why did you wait until the end of the 90 days to complete the paperwork? Why did you take an online class if you have such limited access to a computer?
Quote from: Charlotte on July 04, 2021, 03:38:36 PM
Student has not done any work so far in the class and we are halfway through. Emailed me to say that they didn't complete any work this past week because it was the 90 day deadline for them to file some legal paperwork and they have limited access to computers. Can they make up the work?
What about the other weeks of class you missed? Why did you wait until the end of the 90 days to complete the paperwork? Why did you take an online class if you have such limited access to a computer?
These are good questions that the student should address.
Lord, have mercy! A student wants to know what 'g' is. We are more than halfway through our intro Physics course. You should know that g is the acceleration due to gravity!
Sigh...
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
Ha! Poor E P W!
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2021, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
It sounds depressingly like an invitation to grade grub and/or appeal. "I was REALLY close to passing!!!!! Can't you just bump me up?????"
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2021, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
My current institution has
four grade bands that count as failing, complete with + and - variants on them. In a way, it's satisfying not only to flunk and assignment, but to give a grade that shows the student just how badly they flunked. But on the other hand, it really does seem excessive. Once I've decided an assignment does not merit a passing grade, I don't want to have to continue evaluating it!
Quote from: ergative on July 07, 2021, 12:22:40 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2021, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
My current institution has four grade bands that count as failing, complete with + and - variants on them. In a way, it's satisfying not only to flunk and assignment, but to give a grade that shows the student just how badly they flunked. But on the other hand, it really does seem excessive. Once I've decided an assignment does not merit a passing grade, I don't want to have to continue evaluating it!
I did my masters in a place that used a 1 - 7 scale. 1,2,3 were 3 different kinds of failing. After that, 4 through 7 were roughly the same as a US A B C D scale but there were no +/- grades.
Now I'm intrigued. Are these the categories?
a. Failing because the work handed in was unsatisfactory.
b. Failing because not enough work was handed in, but the work handed in was satisfactory.
c. Failing due to non-attendance.
b and c could overlap though.
I am not sure I can think of other ways.
I generally only see the regular F and then something like c. (Unofficial withdrawal.) I generally just give F grades for all fails, unless the student asks or I see some reason to use the other version of fail. No one really tells me what implications have for the student, so I assume there is none.
Quote from: downer on July 07, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
Now I'm intrigued. Are these the categories?
a. Failing because the work handed in was unsatisfactory.
b. Failing because not enough work was handed in, but the work handed in was satisfactory.
c. Failing due to non-attendance.
b and c could overlap though.
I am not sure I can think of other ways.
I generally only see the regular F and then something like c. (Unofficial withdrawal.) I generally just give F grades for all fails, unless the student asks or I see some reason to use the other version of fail. No one really tells me what implications have for the student, so I assume there is none.
We have regular fail and fail for nonattendance. For nonattendance fails we have to indicate the last week of attendance, which has financial aid implications, so it's not hugely uncommon for students who ghost to come back and "take" the final in order to get a "regular" fail.
Our non attendance fail generally has to happen at the request of the Prof, and well before the final.
In fact, if withdrawn for this reason with a failing grade, he or she may not take the final.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 07, 2021, 08:20:22 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2021, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
It sounds depressingly like an invitation to grade grub and/or appeal. "I was REALLY close to passing!!!!! Can't you just bump me up?????"
That's what I would expect.
Quote from: downer on July 07, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
Now I'm intrigued. Are these the categories?
a. Failing because the work handed in was unsatisfactory.
b. Failing because not enough work was handed in, but the work handed in was satisfactory.
c. Failing due to non-attendance.
b and c could overlap though.
I am not sure I can think of other ways.
I generally only see the regular F and then something like c. (Unofficial withdrawal.) I generally just give F grades for all fails, unless the student asks or I see some reason to use the other version of fail. No one really tells me what implications have for the student, so I assume there is none.
The final grade is always a straightforward weighted average of the individual course components, so the degrees of failing are awarded to individual assignments.
The lowest level is 'didn't hand it in' or 'plagiarized so badly it's a 0' or 'turned it in so late that late penalties ate all the credit you earned'.
One level up is for things like 'answered a different question' or 'wrote a couple of lines to restate the prompt and then gibberish'.
Above that we have 'answered the question--or at least
read the question and
tried to answer it, but was wildly wrong and bad.'
Then the highest level of fail is 'engaged with the question in good faith, but showed insufficient evidence of understanding for a passing grade.'
Because of the weighted average of the final grade, someone who has a few of the high-fails can still manage to pass the class with a reasonable exam or final essay score, but someone who has low-fails might not be able to recover with a good final essay or exam. I think this philosophy works pretty well, in the end. Even if an individual effort doesn't pass muster, we want to reward it in some way at the end of term, and treated zero-assed gibberish the same as good-faith-but-half-assed not-quite-gibberish seems unfair.
Quote from: ergative on July 08, 2021, 02:02:52 AM
Because of the weighted average of the final grade, someone who has a few of the high-fails can still manage to pass the class with a reasonable exam or final essay score, but someone who has low-fails might not be able to recover with a good final essay or exam. I think this philosophy works pretty well, in the end. Even if an individual effort doesn't pass muster, we want to reward it in some way at the end of term, and treated zero-assed gibberish the same as good-faith-but-half-assed not-quite-gibberish seems unfair.
So basically it's just doing with letter grades what would happen automatically with percentages; i.e. 45% on a test is still better than 20% since it gets averaged with other things.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 05, 2021, 07:09:13 PM
Lord, have mercy! A student wants to know what 'g' is. We are more than halfway through our intro Physics course. You should know that g is the acceleration due to gravity!
Sigh...
I first encountered F
g = (Gm
1m
2)/r
2 in 10th grade high school physics class. This is now considered optional knowledge for taking Intro Physics in college?
Quote from: downer on July 07, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
Now I'm intrigued. Are these the categories?
a. Failing because the work handed in was unsatisfactory.
b. Failing because not enough work was handed in, but the work handed in was satisfactory.
c. Failing due to non-attendance.
b and c could overlap though.
I am not sure I can think of other ways.
I generally only see the regular F and then something like c. (Unofficial withdrawal.) I generally just give F grades for all fails, unless the student asks or I see some reason to use the other version of fail. No one really tells me what implications have for the student, so I assume there is none.
I just looked them up again. I cannot imagine a faculty member making such fine distinctions between types of failures. Were it me, I'd just slap an F on it and move on to the next student.
1. Fail. Fails to demonstrate most or all of the basic requirements of the course.
2. Fail. Demonstrates clear deficiencies in understanding and applying fundamental concepts; communicates information or ideas in ways that are frequently incomplete or confusing and give little attention to the conventions of the discipline.
3. Fail. Demonstrates superficial or partial or faulty understanding of the fundamental concepts of the field of study and limited ability to apply these concepts; presents undeveloped or inappropriate or unsupported arguments; communicates information or ideas with lack of clarity and inconsistent adherence to the conventions of the discipline.
Quote from: ergative on July 08, 2021, 02:02:52 AM
Quote from: downer on July 07, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
Now I'm intrigued. Are these the categories?
a. Failing because the work handed in was unsatisfactory.
b. Failing because not enough work was handed in, but the work handed in was satisfactory.
c. Failing due to non-attendance.
b and c could overlap though.
I am not sure I can think of other ways.
I generally only see the regular F and then something like c. (Unofficial withdrawal.) I generally just give F grades for all fails, unless the student asks or I see some reason to use the other version of fail. No one really tells me what implications have for the student, so I assume there is none.
The final grade is always a straightforward weighted average of the individual course components, so the degrees of failing are awarded to individual assignments.
The lowest level is 'didn't hand it in' or 'plagiarized so badly it's a 0' or 'turned it in so late that late penalties ate all the credit you earned'.
One level up is for things like 'answered a different question' or 'wrote a couple of lines to restate the prompt and then gibberish'.
Above that we have 'answered the question--or at least read the question and tried to answer it, but was wildly wrong and bad.'
Then the highest level of fail is 'engaged with the question in good faith, but showed insufficient evidence of understanding for a passing grade.'
Because of the weighted average of the final grade, someone who has a few of the high-fails can still manage to pass the class with a reasonable exam or final essay score, but someone who has low-fails might not be able to recover with a good final essay or exam. I think this philosophy works pretty well, in the end. Even if an individual effort doesn't pass muster, we want to reward it in some way at the end of term, and treated zero-assed gibberish the same as good-faith-but-half-assed not-quite-gibberish seems unfair.
"Wrote a couple of lines to restate the prompt and then gibberish" sounds familiar.
QuoteIt sounds depressingly like an invitation to grade grub and/or appeal. "I was REALLY close to passing!!!!! Can't you just bump me up?????"
The place I did my PhD used to be on a 9 point scale; 1-4 were failing grades. The coordinator of graduate students told all TAs not to use 4 when grading. Wise man.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 07, 2021, 08:20:22 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2021, 08:06:50 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 05, 2021, 09:44:55 PM
Maybe they're worried it's the grade after "f"...
M.
I'm just glad that anything below a D- is an F. My last job has F+ as a possible grade. Why?? It's still failing. Does the plus sign make students feel slightly better?
It sounds depressingly like an invitation to grade grub and/or appeal. "I was REALLY close to passing!!!!! Can't you just bump me up?????"
Ironically, the most requested grade adjustment is from a C- to Failing (or to "bump them up to a B").
Why? Because we only allow students to re-take a class they have failed.
A grade of C- and higher is passing.
The panicked "But I'm a premed! This C will RUIN MY LIFE!" students would rather repeat a class (and possibly get behind on their progress to graduate) than have a low grade on their transcript.
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 08, 2021, 10:53:39 AM
The panicked "But I'm a premed! This C will RUIN MY LIFE!" students would rather repeat a class (and possibly get behind on their progress to graduate) than have a low grade on their transcript.
At FishProf U, the retake would change the GPA calculation, but the original grade remains on the transcript. Is that not usually the case?
Quote from: FishProf on July 08, 2021, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 08, 2021, 10:53:39 AM
The panicked "But I'm a premed! This C will RUIN MY LIFE!" students would rather repeat a class (and possibly get behind on their progress to graduate) than have a low grade on their transcript.
At FishProf U, the retake would change the GPA calculation, but the original grade remains on the transcript. Is that not usually the case?
It would stay on their transcript here too. But they don't necessarily know (or believe) that's the case.
Quote from: FishProf on July 08, 2021, 02:24:12 PM
At FishProf U, the retake would change the GPA calculation, but the original grade remains on the transcript. Is that not usually the case?
At our place, the original grade is removed from the official transcript. The fact that the course had been taken in a previous term is there, but with a grade of 'R' for "repeat."
I expect that is interpreted as a Fail in med school and similar applications.
How in the bloody hell can you be in a Physics course and NOT know how to take log of a number?
Why, you just take an axe out in the forest and find a tree, and....
You mean, there's some other kind of log?
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 09:57:38 AM
Why, you just take an axe out in the forest and find a tree, and....
You mean, there's some other kind of log?
M.
Lol. :)
I know that logarithms aren't utilized much in daily life, but still... Banging my head over here!
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Very cool. I've never had a slide rule, but I thought about getting one just for fun.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Very cool. I've never had a slide rule, but I thought about getting one just for fun.
A slide rule works even when the battery runs out! :-)
Yes, as long as you know how to use it correctly...!
M.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 09:57:38 AM
Why, you just take an axe out in the forest and find a tree, and....
You mean, there's some other kind of log?
M.
Lol. :)
I know that logarithms aren't utilized much in daily life, but still... Banging my head over here!
I thought a logarithm was a birth control device for Catholic lumberjacks. 8-)
(I'll see myself out.....)
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 19, 2021, 03:43:09 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 09:58:42 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 09:57:38 AM
Why, you just take an axe out in the forest and find a tree, and....
You mean, there's some other kind of log?
M.
Lol. :)
I know that logarithms aren't utilized much in daily life, but still... Banging my head over here!
I thought a logarithm was a birth control device for Catholic lumberjacks. 8-)
(I'll see myself out.....)
That was bad and you should feel bad. Ha!
Quote from: dismalist on July 19, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Very cool. I've never had a slide rule, but I thought about getting one just for fun.
A slide rule works even when the battery runs out! :-)
So does a codex.
Quote from: apl68 on July 19, 2021, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 19, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Very cool. I've never had a slide rule, but I thought about getting one just for fun.
A slide rule works even when the battery runs out! :-)
So does a codex.
To multiply by using logs? Who knew? :-)
Quote from: apl68 on July 19, 2021, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 19, 2021, 01:32:13 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 19, 2021, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: mamselle on July 19, 2021, 10:04:52 AM
I've actually still got my dad's slide rule.
Tried using it for a math exam once but I must not have gotten the hang of it completely.
I did all the problems both ways, and used the ones I got by hand, just to be safe.
Good thing. My slide-rule answers were 'way off....
M.
Very cool. I've never had a slide rule, but I thought about getting one just for fun.
A slide rule works even when the battery runs out! :-)
So does a codex.
That's true.
I'm fueled by beer.
I'm doing a lab grading marathon today and here are some of the more 'interesting' highlights:
I have a student who thinks that % error has units!!!
Students do not know how to calculate percent error.
Students will not ask me why they have 500% error.
Apparently average deviation can be larger than all deviations (by an order of magnitude).
Units? We don't need no stinkin' units!
I just got a gem of an email from a student who bitched at me for a lab that is 'ridiculously confusing and hard for no reason.' Of course, this student decided to email me 15 minutes before the lab is due despite having a week and a half to complete the lab.
I will be so happy when this semester is over.
QuoteUnits? We don't need no stinkin' units!
Welcome to the club.
She's baaack- my student with the never ending incomplete! She "earned" the incomplete in Spring of 2020, so the one year statute has come and gone. But, because of COVID, our admins keep giving her more time, which means weeks go by with nothing happening.
She emails me today (the first day of Fall classes), because the Canvas course has expired and will no longer let her take the final exam. And of course she "needs" to take it today to make some deadline for grade changes so she can graduate. Never mind the lab report she still needs to submit. I doubt our Canvas IT folks will even get to my request today, as I'm sure they are dealing with much more urgent first day of class issues.
I'm also skeptical of her passing the final exam, which would make the entire year+ saga a waste of time. I told her at the start that I recommended just retaking the course (which is required for her med school dreams).
Dear Students
The textbook is the textbook. You need to acquire a copy. I do not care if you get it through the University bookstore or Amazon. There might even be an electronic version of it, instead of the physical copy that should be at the bookstore, available for purchase today for the Reading assignment due tomorrow.
Also, please note that the list of "Materials you will need for this course" includes access to a computer to view course content and to complete course activities. Please do not attempt to complete this online course using only your SmartPhone. It is not smart enough.
Sincerely
Prof who is surprised to learn that students do not know how to acquire a textbook
Dear prep folks,
I know that you are suddenly very busy getting ready for Fall. You knew that all labs would be back to in person. Why you did not plan ahead and work on things in advance is not really my concern. Don't act surprised that I'm asking for things - I took over this class a YEAR AGO. I will give you exact number of what we need, use your checklist-style prep sheets, and write out protocols that you should already know how to follow (You've been prepping this type of class for YEARS. Are you really going to pretend you've forgotten how to make solutions or pour plates?). Just. Do. Your. Job.
P.S. Classes don't start for over a MONTH. You have time.
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
You should show up in a purple cloak with an astrolabe and tell 'em your name is Laurie Cabot ...
M.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
At least there won't be any math! <<Leaves room with evil laughter...>>
My best GenEd student quote was something along the lines of "this is the third astrology course I've taken and I still can't pass." Which was almost as good as the student at an elite university that said, during office hours, "I don't understand 4 pi r squared. I read greek and that does not make any sense."
Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2021, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
At least there won't be any math! <<Leaves room with evil laughter...>>
My best GenEd student quote was something along the lines of "this is the third astrology course I've taken and I still can't pass." Which was almost as good as the student at an elite university that said, during office hours, "I don't understand 4 pi r squared. I read greek and that does not make any sense."
Good Lord! Don't get me started. I had students complain in the past that I was teaching a Math class instead of Astronomy. Their Math skills are abysmal. Can't add fractions, find a common denominator, do basic Algebra... Nope!
Quote from: mamselle on August 30, 2021, 06:28:38 PM
You should show up in a purple cloak with an astrolabe and tell 'em your name is Laurie Cabot ...
M.
Ha! I blow their minds when I tell them there is a 13th constellation of the Zodiac and they get all anxious about their signs changing.
Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2021, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
At least there won't be any math! <<Leaves room with evil laughter...>>
My best GenEd student quote was something along the lines of "this is the third astrology course I've taken and I still can't pass." Which was almost as good as the student at an elite university that said, during office hours, "I don't understand 4 pi r squared. I read greek and that does not make any sense."
Because pi r not square. Pie are round.
Quote from: ciao_yall on August 30, 2021, 08:58:40 PM
Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2021, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
At least there won't be any math! <<Leaves room with evil laughter...>>
My best GenEd student quote was something along the lines of "this is the third astrology course I've taken and I still can't pass." Which was almost as good as the student at an elite university that said, during office hours, "I don't understand 4 pi r squared. I read greek and that does not make any sense."
Because pi r not square. Pie are round.
Ummmm. Debatable. https://momath.org/square-pie/
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: mamselle on August 30, 2021, 06:28:38 PM
You should show up in a purple cloak with an astrolabe and tell 'em your name is Laurie Cabot ...
M.
Ha! I blow their minds when I tell them there is a 13th constellation of the Zodiac and they get all anxious about their signs changing.
All I know is that if the Age of Aquarius dawned decades ago like the song says, it hasn't lived up to expectations.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: mamselle on August 30, 2021, 06:28:38 PM
You should show up in a purple cloak with an astrolabe and tell 'em your name is Laurie Cabot ...
M.
Ha! I blow their minds when I tell them there is a 13th constellation of the Zodiac and they get all anxious about their signs changing.
You could always go all Harry Potter style astronomy and tell them that they all need to buy telescopes & meet you on top of the tallest tower at midnight.
Quote from: arcturus on August 30, 2021, 07:09:35 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 30, 2021, 05:04:37 PM
Holy cannoli!
How many students are going to call astronomy --> 'astrology?'
Ugh!
At least there won't be any math! <<Leaves room with evil laughter...>>
My best GenEd student quote was something along the lines of "this is the third astrology course I've taken and I still can't pass." Which was almost as good as the student at an elite university that said, during office hours, "I don't understand 4 pi r squared. I read greek and that does not make any sense."
Maybe they're reading Pythagoras, who would've surely agreed pi, being irrational, is ridiculous and can't exist.
Send them to the University of Bern, which has just used math to solve an astronomy problem....
https://phys.org/news/2021-08-mathematical-solutions-problem-astronomy.html
A-hem...
M.
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
What
is a prelab? About a billion years ago we had these labs in which test tubes were made to clash and then we reported the results. Is this, like, pre-clash? :-)
Quote from: dismalist on August 31, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
What is a prelab? About a billion years ago we had these labs in which test tubes were made to clash and then we reported the results. Is this, like, pre-clash? :-)
It's a quiz that they take after reading the background material for the lab. It's outlined in the syllabus. :)
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: dismalist on August 31, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
What is a prelab? About a billion years ago we had these labs in which test tubes were made to clash and then we reported the results. Is this, like, pre-clash? :-)
It's a quiz that they take after reading the background material for the lab. It's outlined in the syllabus. :)
Got it: It's the entrance ticket to the lab! :-)
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
I've had to explain that the entire point of the quiz at the start of lab is to motivate students to show up prepared for lab. Yes, I know that students will do better on the quiz at the end of lab since they will have certainly read the lab materials by then. No, students cannot take the quiz at the end of lab.
The kicker: I had to explain this to the lab TA
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 31, 2021, 03:27:32 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on August 31, 2021, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
I feel your pain. I had someone ask me what a 'prelab' was today.
I've had to explain that the entire point of the quiz at the start of lab is to motivate students to show up prepared for lab.
Been there, done that. You have my sympathy.
[quote.
Yes, I know that students will do better on the quiz at the end of lab since they will have certainly read the lab materials by then. No, students cannot take the quiz at the end of lab.
[/quote]
Mine close before the labs start for the week to make this clear. (Of course, that doesn't mean everyone gets it.)
Quote
The kicker: I had to explain this to the lab TA
Ow! I did have a TA just not show up to a lab and then when I checked my email he had emailed that he skipped the lab to study for his midterm. I hope he's never an air traffic controller or firefighter.
Quote from: dismalist on August 31, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
About a billion years ago we had these labs in which test tubes were made to clash and then we reported the results.
A combination music and science lab? Sounds like an interesting pedagogical experiment!
No student. You cannot 'pause' the quiz and go back to it on another day. It doesn't work that way. SMDH.
Ugh! If one more person asks for the data that I explained how to find in the introduction to the lab, answered three times already while we were doing the lab, and IS WRITTEN a) in the procedure and b) at the top of the data table, my head will explo....BOOM!
Quote from: apl68 on September 01, 2021, 06:37:01 AM
Quote from: dismalist on August 31, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
About a billion years ago we had these labs in which test tubes were made to clash and then we reported the results.
A combination music and science lab? Sounds like an interesting pedagogical experiment!
I've always bounced both ways! :-)
I have an assignment due tomorrow that uses expensive, complicated, software that is supposed to be available to all students at this university for free. The IT folks removed it from the university computers last night. In the middle of the term. With no notification. When queried, the IT folks said that the students should just download the software and install it on their own computers. As if all of our students have their own personal computers that have space and sufficient compute power to run this software. No. Just no.
You have permission to not only bang your head on the desk, but tear your hair out, start dancing complicated steps on the IT room's collective desks to loud drumbeat tapes, and run screaming up and down the hall until they re-load the software.
I'd start now if I were you.
Sheesh.
M.
Thank you, mamselle. I have started screaming up the chain-of-command. It will not rescue this assignment, but may cause them to re-install the software in time for the next one. I don't know what I will do if they don't...this software is integral to my class.
They have ways of looking at user stats to determine density of use; it's a bit early in the semester to be getting rid of stuff without, say, checking last semester's stats, or those of two years ago (or whenever the class last ran) to see when it was being accessed over the term and how many were using it.
Or, just, like, ask?
I mean, it suggests communication and contacting a professor and all, but they should know how to do that with all their high-falutin' equipment, I should think....
M.
Quote from: waterboy on August 31, 2021, 11:59:14 AM
New complaint - does anyone read the freaking syllabus anymore? Even after I told them multiples times? Anybody? Anywhere? Class time is CLEARLY marked. Hmmppff.
In fairness, even
I don't read the syllabus--at least, not the mandatory 12 pages of blather which aren't the schedule of readings and the assignments.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 01, 2021, 07:04:57 AM
No student. You cannot 'pause' the quiz and go back to it on another day. It doesn't work that way. SMDH.
I had two students this week that opened up their online assignments (which are not timed), and then continued to leave them open until their LMS accounts timed out and the assignments auto-submitted.
Sometimes I forget that there must still be some students entering college that have never used an LMS in their K-12 system. Ah well, they tend to pick it up pretty quick.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I don't have my textbook, so I didn't do any of the assigned work from this week and last week. Once I get the book, can you let me take all of the work again?"
Wow. This kid is really leaving that pretty open-ended isn't he? Whenever he gets the book? Jeez.
Now if only he came to class or followed directions, he'd know that copies of the first chapters of the textbook are posted online. Or maybe he does know, and is just a slacker. Eh, I don't care. That's three zeroes in the gradebook.
Quote from: Aster on September 04, 2021, 04:21:46 AM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I don't have my textbook, so I didn't do any of the assigned work from this week and last week. Once I get the book, can you let me take all of the work again?"
Wow. This kid is really leaving that pretty open-ended isn't he? Whenever he gets the book? Jeez.
Now if only he came to class or followed directions, he'd know that copies of the first chapters of the textbook are posted online. Or maybe he does know, and is just a slacker. Eh, I don't care. That's three zeroes in the gradebook.
I have one of those students. It's hard not to respond with, "Hopefully, you'll have the book in time to successfully retake the course next semester." But I'm pretty sure that's not how we are supposed to "work with students."
Errr, how many hs students have used a college-style learning management software set-up?
Uhm.... the students who completed dual credit or perhaps the students who have been working online for the last 18 or so months? I am in no way defending the sleep walkers and/or chronically distracted people who take online education less than seriously. But really, many of my students have used an LMS because of remote learning. Which doesn't mean the student was the person completing the work just that they were enrolled in class offered on a platform.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 05, 2021, 07:17:21 PM
Errr, how many hs students have used a college-style learning management software set-up?
Loads of them do, especially over the last two years. And the LMS that many students are best acquainted with is
Canvas. It was originally designed for high schools, and prototyped in high schools. Higher Ed adopted it later. One of the legacy "tells" that betrays it's high school origins is how professors are labeled as "teachers." This bothers some of my colleagues to no end.
Canvas is adopted in school districts in all 50 U.S. states, and is now used in middle schools as well as high schools. Over a dozen states have adopted it as their LMS standard for their public high schools systems.
Awright, I have not been associated with a public hs in almost 30 years, and I get that many such schools, along with likely not a few elite private ones, use such software. This is however another example of the enormous differences between those American hss who are the haves, and those that are not.
Unrelated to the LMS discussion above.
Gah! A group of graduate students have completely bombed a quiz in a manner very similar to each other. I now have to determine if the driver is a) they failed cheating; b) they have really poor foundational math skills (possible in this program, but usually not at this rate); c) they have really poor critical thinking skills (seriously, did those answers make a lick of sense?); or d) a combination of the above. What in the Sam Hill is going on here?
I am teaching an online summer course that I have taught many times before. Each time is much the same, except that I try to sharpen the parts that work and pare back on the parts that don't. So in theory the course should be getting better and better. And it is a non-required course on a great subject, so everyone who enrolls wants to be there, which usually makes for a great, engaged group of students.
This pandemic summer, a few of the students are great and engaged. Many of the rest are falling apart. I have a policy where anyone who asks can turn in anything late without penalty. Nevertheless a lot of students are just failing to turn things in, and taking 0's for assignments. Four of them just stopped showing up — too late to drop — and are not responding to emails. Then I have a raft of students who are asking to turn things in late, and their emails sound as if they're just coming apart at the seams. "I just can't concentrate, I'm so sorry." I mean, not that I blame them. I feel much the same way. It's just a really noticeable difference from the usual experience.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 06, 2021, 07:41:51 PM
Unrelated to the LMS discussion above.
Gah! A group of graduate students have completely bombed a quiz in a manner very similar to each other. I now have to determine if the driver is a) they failed cheating; b) they have really poor foundational math skills (possible in this program, but usually not at this rate); c) they have really poor critical thinking skills (seriously, did those answers make a lick of sense?); or d) a combination of the above. What in the Sam Hill is going on here?
I suppose the main question is whether you've used similar question before without getting similar results. Even with essay exams, often when I swap in a new question, students screw up in very similar ways and I start wondering if there was some sort of collaboration, but they usually screw it up again in the same way next semester. There's just a way that a student who is half listening to class can misunderstand something and a different way a student who is taking a lot of notes but failing to actually think about the material can misunderstand something and it is remarkably consistent.
Problem student emails me and asks if we need to turn in the prelab. Um, yes, that's what we've been doing since the semester started. Why would it be different this week? SMDH.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 06, 2021, 07:41:51 PM
Gah! A group of graduate students have completely bombed a quiz in a manner very similar to each other. I now have to determine if the driver is a) they failed cheating; b) they have really poor foundational math skills (possible in this program, but usually not at this rate); c) they have really poor critical thinking skills (seriously, did those answers make a lick of sense?); or d) a combination of the above. What in the Sam Hill is going on here?
I am seeing signs of this also, in certain classes. Preliminary investigations are pointing towards two possible contributing factors.
1. Larger groups of students committing less numerical time into their weekly learning plans.
2. More students trying to cheat online but sucking at it.
Dear Student -
The fact that you are asking these questions means that you did not watch the video that provides the answers to these questions. You also did not open the posted slides associated with that video that *also* contain the answers to these questions. Really, you must make some effort other than writing to the instructors asking what are the answers to these questions. Since we already give you the answers to these questions in video and pptx form, we are not going to write them in an email so you can copy and paste our words (i.e., complete sentences) into your document. This class is not that hard. Please try to do *something* on your own to earn a passing grade.
Prof I-am-not-going-to-have-students-plagiarise-my-words
Quote from: Caracal on September 07, 2021, 06:06:08 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 06, 2021, 07:41:51 PM
Unrelated to the LMS discussion above.
Gah! A group of graduate students have completely bombed a quiz in a manner very similar to each other. I now have to determine if the driver is a) they failed cheating; b) they have really poor foundational math skills (possible in this program, but usually not at this rate); c) they have really poor critical thinking skills (seriously, did those answers make a lick of sense?); or d) a combination of the above. What in the Sam Hill is going on here?
I suppose the main question is whether you've used similar question before without getting similar results. Even with essay exams, often when I swap in a new question, students screw up in very similar ways and I start wondering if there was some sort of collaboration, but they usually screw it up again in the same way next semester. There's just a way that a student who is half listening to class can misunderstand something and a different way a student who is taking a lot of notes but failing to actually think about the material can misunderstand something and it is remarkably consistent.
Those are good points. Last year, no one messed it up this badly. Though I couldn't completely rule-out cheating, I made the assumptions of poor math/critical thinking skills, did a targeted concept review in class, called a mulligan, and allowed them to resubmit. I'm following my general rule during COVID times--vent if needed (to colleagues and on the fora) but err on the side of grace.
Stu Dent: "Professor, I ordered the textbook through Amazon, but it said it won't be here until next week."
Me: "You can't order it from Amazon. It is a custom product only carried by our campus bookstore."
Stu Dent: "Well, I did it. I typed in the ISBN and ordered it. But it's not here yet. How can I do my work?"
Me: "Telling me about this now is too late. The book has been required for two weeks already. Cancel your Amazon order and go to the campus bookstore and buy the book there."
So I went on Amazon and typed in the ISBN (there's a section for it on Amazon). No result. This student either lied to me, or ordered something else that doesn't match the ISBN on the syllabus.
You are probably right, but is there *no chance* that Amazon somehow has gotten a hold of this book, perhaps via a 3d party vendor selling used copies?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 06, 2021, 07:41:51 PM
Gah! A group of graduate students have completely bombed a quiz in a manner very similar to each other. I now have to determine if the driver is a) they failed cheating; b) they have really poor foundational math skills (possible in this program, but usually not at this rate); c) they have really poor critical thinking skills (seriously, did those answers make a lick of sense?); or d) a combination of the above. What in the Sam Hill is going on here?
Graduate students? 😬
Quote from: Aster on September 09, 2021, 02:06:47 PM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I ordered the textbook through Amazon, but it said it won't be here until next week."
Me: "You can't order it from Amazon. It is a custom product only carried by our campus bookstore."
Stu Dent: "Well, I did it. I typed in the ISBN and ordered it. But it's not here yet. How can I do my work?"
Me: "Telling me about this now is too late. The book has been required for two weeks already. Cancel your Amazon order and go to the campus bookstore and buy the book there."
So I went on Amazon and typed in the ISBN (there's a section for it on Amazon). No result. This student either lied to me, or ordered something else that doesn't match the ISBN on the syllabus.
My money is on the student not wanting to admit they forgot to buy the book and they are lying. The "waiting for Amazon" excuse might work in other classes so they tried it.
Classic case of "you can't care more than they do". You told them where to get the book. It's on them to go buy it.
Quote from: Aster on September 09, 2021, 02:06:47 PM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I ordered the textbook through Amazon, but it said it won't be here until next week."
Me: "You can't order it from Amazon. It is a custom product only carried by our campus bookstore."
Stu Dent: "Well, I did it. I typed in the ISBN and ordered it. But it's not here yet. How can I do my work?"
Me: "Telling me about this now is too late. The book has been required for two weeks already. Cancel your Amazon order and go to the campus bookstore and buy the book there."
So I went on Amazon and typed in the ISBN (there's a section for it on Amazon). No result. This student either lied to me, or ordered something else that doesn't match the ISBN on the syllabus.
Wonder what would happen if you asked for a screenshot of the Amazon page showing the book for sale. Or of their order confirmation.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 09, 2021, 09:30:00 PM
You are probably right, but is there *no chance* that Amazon somehow has gotten a hold of this book, perhaps via a 3d party vendor selling used copies?
It's very
remotely possible, but even in the unlikely event of that, the student would be running afoul of a *different* course policy. These are laboratory manual workbooks. The syllabus policy clearly states in giant letters that only new, unmarked books may be purchased. Previously owned, used books are not allowed.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 10, 2021, 07:33:06 AM
Quote from: Aster on September 09, 2021, 02:06:47 PM
Stu Dent: "Professor, I ordered the textbook through Amazon, but it said it won't be here until next week."
Me: "You can't order it from Amazon. It is a custom product only carried by our campus bookstore."
Stu Dent: "Well, I did it. I typed in the ISBN and ordered it. But it's not here yet. How can I do my work?"
Me: "Telling me about this now is too late. The book has been required for two weeks already. Cancel your Amazon order and go to the campus bookstore and buy the book there."
So I went on Amazon and typed in the ISBN (there's a section for it on Amazon). No result. This student either lied to me, or ordered something else that doesn't match the ISBN on the syllabus.
My money is on the student not wanting to admit they forgot to buy the book and they are lying. The "waiting for Amazon" excuse might work in other classes so they tried it.
Classic case of "you can't care more than they do". You told them where to get the book. It's on them to go buy it.
Ha. That was what the bookstore manager said to me today.
I have 3 students pulling the "Amazon won't have it in stock until...."
I know. That's why the link I gave you was...
1) to the publisher,
2) who has it in stock,
3) for less than Amazon,
4) and it includes instant e-book access,
5) or you can buy the e-book only for about 2/3 of the book price.
Quote from: FishProf on September 11, 2021, 07:26:26 AM
I have 3 students pulling the "Amazon won't have it in stock until...."
I know. That's why the link I gave you was...
1) to the publisher,
2) who has it in stock,
3) for less than Amazon,
4) and it includes instant e-book access,
5) or you can buy the e-book only for about 2/3 of the book price.
6) and, why I tell you you can fake your homework off the online PPTs for the first few weeks until your book comes in.
Two of my students didn't know we had a test today. One 'forgot' and the other asked me if the test date 'was written down somewhere.'
Um...... why yes, it's called a syllabus.
Since high schools don't use syllabi, it really does behoove the professor in first-semester intro courses to walk through the syllabus effectively the first day, not just the syllabus itself, but more importantly the *concept* of a syllabus, what it tells you and why you would want to look at it regularly. This is the sort of thing that should appear in 'college 101'-style prep courses, but perhaps most frosh do not actually have to take one of these...
Umm...I've both subbed in and been a student in high school courses with syllabi.
Still have some in the files of my notes, in fact.
M.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 14, 2021, 10:29:35 PM
Since high schools don't use syllabi, it really does behoove the professor in first-semester intro courses to walk through the syllabus effectively the first day, not just the syllabus itself, but more importantly the *concept* of a syllabus, what it tells you and why you would want to look at it regularly. This is the sort of thing that should appear in 'college 101'-style prep courses, but perhaps most frosh do not actually have to take one of these...
That's what most of us do in every single class, every semester. It's probably a requirement these days. Most students also get a quiz on the syllabus.
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 15, 2021, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 14, 2021, 10:29:35 PM
Since high schools don't use syllabi, it really does behoove the professor in first-semester intro courses to walk through the syllabus effectively the first day, not just the syllabus itself, but more importantly the *concept* of a syllabus, what it tells you and why you would want to look at it regularly. This is the sort of thing that should appear in 'college 101'-style prep courses, but perhaps most frosh do not actually have to take one of these...
That's what most of us do in every single class, every semester. It's probably a requirement these days. Most students also get a quiz on the syllabus.
Yep. I go through it on Day #1. They have a syllabus quiz. I make announcements in class regarding due dates. What's that saying about leading a horse to water? :)
You can lead a human to knowledge, but you can't make them think.
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 14, 2021, 10:29:35 PM
Since high schools don't use syllabi, it really does behoove the professor in first-semester intro courses to walk through the syllabus effectively the first day, not just the syllabus itself, but more importantly the *concept* of a syllabus, what it tells you and why you would want to look at it regularly. This is the sort of thing that should appear in 'college 101'-style prep courses, but perhaps most frosh do not actually have to take one of these...
My high school used syllabi and I'm not early career. Our freshmen do take a "how to student 101" class too. By the time I get them, they have had a few quarters of college to knock most of the bad habits out.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 14, 2021, 02:56:15 PM
Two of my students didn't know we had a test today. One 'forgot' and the other asked me if the test date 'was written down somewhere.'
Um...... why yes, it's called a syllabus.
I
was that student in undergrad. More than once, I walked into class and saw my classmates cramming for a quiz/test and had an "oh crap" moment. Of course, I just took the exam/quiz without alerting my professor that I had forgotten. My problem was usually that I had lost the syllabus. I think it would have helped me a lot to have it posted on the LMS (I'm assuming you did have it posted, EPW).
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 14, 2021, 10:29:35 PM
Since high schools don't use syllabi
My spouse has taught middle and high school English for nearly 20 years in five different states and a syllabus has been required by each district. Is this happenstance, or is no syllabus the norm for most high schools?
My son just graduated from high school, and they had no syllabi. In fact every teacher had a different way of putting up assignments, on a different platform/website. Yep, it was chaos all right.
Is there a variation in high school syllabus use between public and private schools, or rural/urban?
I've only been in urban public settings, maybe there are variables to consider; in any case, it doesn't seem like it's generalizable across states/towns/?countries/sites.
Some do, some don't, is what it sounds like, which could account for some of the confusion, in fact.
Students used to them don't have to become acclimated to their use and the idea of their central importance to a satisfying experience of the course.
Those without that experience have to become acculturated, and they can be in the same classes with those who 'know' from the start what they are and how to use them.
Maybe something to ask about, or for a show of hands at the first class for first-year courses, so you know the lay of the land....
M.
Quote from: wwwdotcom on September 15, 2021, 07:47:12 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on September 14, 2021, 10:29:35 PM
Since high schools don't use syllabi
My spouse has taught middle and high school English for nearly 20 years in five different states and a syllabus has been required by each district. Is this happenstance, or is no syllabus the norm for most high schools?
I'm starting to wonder that too. Until it was mentioned here, I don't recall ever hearing of high schools using a syllabus. I suppose it's one of those changes that has occurred since my day. Now I wonder how widespread the practice is. It evidently varies quite a bit from district to district. Kay's point that not all students come into college familiar with the concept of a syllabus stands.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 15, 2021, 07:43:46 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 14, 2021, 02:56:15 PM
Two of my students didn't know we had a test today. One 'forgot' and the other asked me if the test date 'was written down somewhere.'
Um...... why yes, it's called a syllabus.
I was that student in undergrad. More than once, I walked into class and saw my classmates cramming for a quiz/test and had an "oh crap" moment. Of course, I just took the exam/quiz without alerting my professor that I had forgotten. My problem was usually that I had lost the syllabus. I think it would have helped me a lot to have it posted on the LMS (I'm assuming you did have it posted, EPW).
Yep. I have the syllabus plus lots of course content posted online. Every online assignment has the due date in its title. Due dates and upcoming exams are mentioned in class often. We even had a short review session the day before the test!
Hmmm... I have taught at 5 different hss over the last thirty years, pub and private, and in none of them did I ever write a syllabus nor see any colleague do so. The exception, sorrta, is with AP Latin, where the syllabus is given to the teacher by the college board, which expects teachers to follow it as the gentleman's agreement allowing hss to list 'AP' on transcripts-- this allows the CB to help sell the value of a passing AP exam score, to colleges. But the students never see the syllabus, and the last time I taught AP, the syllabus more or less just told me how many vv of Vergil to read, and which ones.
Of course, the main reason I do not write syllabi for hss, is the same reason my *language* classes syllabi (as opposed to other subjects I have taught) in college is that I practice a mastery approach to fl learning, and really do not care overmuch how much 'material' is covered, so long as it is learned effectively (this is, for various reasons, not the case in something like ancient history). And this philosophy is even more effective and important for hss fl classes, than it is for undergrad ones.
If I recall, magistra on the old forum, and others discussed this issue with language teaching, as well. Too bad we can't pull those threads up now.
It may also be a more recent development; my own French and Latin teachers in high school (in the 1970s) did structured handouts, but the Spanish classes thought we were too fastidious in a number of ways, that one included; it was just becoming a 'thing' to trickle down into high schools, probably.
I subbed for Latin and French (and some Chinese, when they couldn't get anyone else...) classes in jr. high and high school within the past 5 years, in an urban setting. Those classes all had syllabi set out on top of the daily calendar book as required--all teachers had to supply subs with certain materials and have them out before they left the day before a planned day out, or available for the department chair or principal to put out in case of illness.
I usually followed those pretty closely, since they were keyed to the textbooks, the homework was due and needed to be reviewed, etc. None were AP classes that I recall, but that would have been under the same requirements, which were system-wide. The state had just started state tests, too, so a lot of tight fitting of topics and skills would have been jiggered out of place if I hadn't, and I'd have heard about it.
The Chinese class was kind of fun; I'd been told to just give them a study hall if I didn't have any chops in Mandarin; instead, I had them teach me what they knew and thought I'd need to know to go to a major town in China on the train from the airport, and order a hamburger.
They went to the board and put up the five tones for me to practice from, and wrote the words I'd need to use, and taught me how to pronounce them. We had a blast, and since I told them if I correctly learned my sentences to the satisfaction of the two native Mandarin speakers in the class, they'd all get a passing mark for the day.
We all passed.
But the point was that there was content being conveyed, we reviewed skills and codified grammar points, and they demonstrated proficiency in useful terms and concepts--and they were within the parameters of the course content--I'd checked before making the assignment.
Smiling, now...almost as good as the day I took my recorder to a high school physics class and made them figure out the acoustic ratios for the notes I played, and why they worked, and what made them louder and softer--we ended up with words like 'amplitude,' 'frequency,' 'Hz' and 'additive waves' on the board....all terms in the chapter they were working on.
And they got all the assigned problems correct after that, too.
Subversive, self-serving use of syllabi, perhaps...but it was fun.
Like jazz riffs on a set chord structure.
M.
It really should not matter if you had a syllabus in HS or not. Students SHOULD be able to realize that a document handed out on day one (yep I hand out print copies), with all the due dates on it (front page- no excuses that you missed seeing that page), that the prof then spends time discussing and has a quiz on is important!
Quote from: mythbuster on September 16, 2021, 02:23:32 PM
It really should not matter if you had a syllabus in HS or not. Students SHOULD be able to realize that a document handed out on day one (yep I hand out print copies), with all the due dates on it (front page- no excuses that you missed seeing that page), that the prof then spends time discussing and has a quiz on is important!
You are able to get the dates on the first page? I have so much required stuff to put in early on that I'm lucky if I can get the schedule on Page 3.
But I think your point is right. If the students are so clueless that they can't work out what a syllabus is and that it is impotant, then they probably shouldn't be in college.
Quote from: downer on September 16, 2021, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on September 16, 2021, 02:23:32 PM
It really should not matter if you had a syllabus in HS or not. Students SHOULD be able to realize that a document handed out on day one (yep I hand out print copies), with all the due dates on it (front page- no excuses that you missed seeing that page), that the prof then spends time discussing and has a quiz on is important!
You are able to get the dates on the first page? I have so much required stuff to put in early on that I'm lucky if I can get the schedule on Page 3.
But I think your point is right. If the students are so clueless that they can't work out what a syllabus is and that it is impotant, then they probably shouldn't be in college.
I put all of the assignments, due dates & point values on the last page. That way they can at least scroll to the end to find it quickly. I also have so much "boilerplate" and "policies" that MUST be included that my syllabus is now 12 pages. It's so pointless! I know they won't read it for all of their classes.
What mythbuster, downer, and the_geneticist said.
The departments and the college require us to include certain information on the syllabi. Mine is four full pages of course information, assignment and attendance policies, and the required boilerplate material, and two pages of the weekly course outlines and assignments. We are also required to email a copy of the syllabus to the department which I suspect emails them all up the food chain.
On the first day of class, I have students take turns reading the syllabus, especially the first four pages. I get to know the students as they have to introduce themselves, or at least say their names before reading.
College is not high school; there is no excuse for students to assume that college is an extension of their high school.
Quote from: downer on September 16, 2021, 02:32:33 PM
If the students are so clueless that they can't work out what a syllabus is and that it is impotant, then they probably shouldn't be in college.
So sorry to be that person, but... 😄
Quote from: Charlotte on September 16, 2021, 06:36:35 PM
Quote from: downer on September 16, 2021, 02:32:33 PM
If the students are so clueless that they can't work out what a syllabus is and that it is impotant, then they probably shouldn't be in college.
So sorry to be that person, but... 😄
😄 😄 😄 😄 😄
Ok, but what mamselle is talking about is a 'lesson plan', which most hss require teacher to write weekly, and give to some adminiscritter. This tells what is to be done that day, and is especially useful for when there is a sub. But this is not usually written more than a week in advance, and definitely allows a teacher with my philosophy to operate effectively (that said, I do admit to more or less writing minimalist lesson plans and departign from them as needed, in accordance with this philosophy).
No, I was also given lesson plans in some cases, where the instructor anticipated the need. But there was also a syllabus.
With state testing, the coverage of all the concepts on that year's test were micromanaged down to a muon's breadth of space. Every day was focused on a concept and one could not deviate.
M.
Had a problem set due today at the beginning of lab, and as usual, before the students turn in their work, we go over some of the problems and give them a chance to correct errors. I always walk around the room during the first minute or two of class, glance at their work, and put a checkmark in the corner to signify they've made a noble attempt at the work. This also gives me a chance to check quickly which problem(s) had the most errors and those are the ones we discuss. Well, today a student who has only been to class twice (it's the end of week 4) seemed surprised when I did not put a checkmark on his paper... he had only copied the diagrams and made no attempt at the solutions. Not sure what he planned to do for solutions to the problems we didn't go over.
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
Quote from: ergative on September 18, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
We use Canvas for our LMS and its "Inbox" provides name of student and course as the title of the email sent to my regular email account and the course is attached to the student's name in the "Inbox" itself. I insist that all students communicate with us using thie Canvas tool. This not only makes it easier to identify relevant course, but also to share emails and responses with the other instructors involved in the course.
Quote from: ergative on September 18, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
It suggests that these students have an awfully narrow focus on themselves and their own interests, to the point of having disturbingly little awareness of anything beyond these. I'm pretty sure that when I was in college and grad school the average student was at least somewhat aware of the fact that their particular class wasn't all the prof had to deal with.
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 21, 2021, 11:40:59 AM
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
Haha, that's great. There is no way I would let that be in my syllabus, I would go find another job first. I can't imagine how that statement would help
anything.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 21, 2021, 11:40:59 AM
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
That must come from some sort of for profit model, right?
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 21, 2021, 11:40:59 AM
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
Haha, that's great. There is no way I would let that be in my syllabus, I would go find another job first. I can't imagine how that statement would help anything.
I don't know what they think it's helping. I'm in an applied field, and we never use that language in our department. I'm hoping this one is an aberration for the other department, but I'm concerned it's not.
Quote from: Caracal on September 22, 2021, 07:18:20 AM
That must come from some sort of for profit model, right?
It may come for a for-profit model, but I'm working at a public university (and other department is at the same university).
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 22, 2021, 08:23:18 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 21, 2021, 11:40:59 AM
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
Haha, that's great. There is no way I would let that be in my syllabus, I would go find another job first. I can't imagine how that statement would help anything.
I don't know what they think it's helping. I'm in an applied field, and we never use that language in our department. I'm hoping this one is an aberration for the other department, but I'm concerned it's not.
Quote from: Caracal on September 22, 2021, 07:18:20 AM
That must come from some sort of for profit model, right?
It may come for a for-profit model, but I'm working at a public university (and other department is at the same university).
Not to derail this too much, but I fear something similar as we undergo an overhaul of our gen-ed requirements. Currently there's a plan for a faculty senate vote to approve new curricula that would allow for the thematizing of students' courses of study. So they might take a history, philosophy, or English courses in "environmental sustainability" or "social justice" or whatever. Admin is selling this as a way for students to have agency over their educations. Students like it because they feel like customers getting their money's worth. And faculty have been told that faculty senate will be the final vote -- the full voting faculty won't weigh in.
I have a bad feeling about this.
I "thematized" my undergraduate course of study--it was called a "Personalized Study Program," and my committee made it quite rigorous.
Which was fine with me, they required three added art history courses, one in aesthetics, and some other stuff, all of which I continue to be grateful for.
So focused, individualized work is not automatically the 'get out of jail free' card you fear it could be.
It's just different.
M.
It's not automatically rigorous either.
The Devil is in the details.
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 12:59:02 PM
I "thematized" my undergraduate course of study--it was called a "Personalized Study Program," and my committee made it quite rigorous.
Which was fine with me, they required three added art history courses, one in aesthetics, and some other stuff, all of which I continue to be grateful for.
So focused, individualized work is not automatically the 'get out of jail free' card you fear it could be.
It's just different.
M.
I think the concern is that the students are deciding what themes get chosen, even if its through an administrative fiat. "We polled students and x% want to take the history of Wall Street and another y% don't want to take literature. Due to low enrollment, faculty lines in English have been cut, and the rest now grade for the new Business Writing course."
Quote from: RatGuy on September 22, 2021, 12:25:11 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 22, 2021, 08:23:18 AM
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on September 22, 2021, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 21, 2021, 11:40:59 AM
We are working on increasing collaboration with another department and the possibility of dual-degree programs, so we have been exchanging current syllabi. The one I looked at today explicitly stated that "[Course] has been designed with the assumption that you are our customer."
Are faculty actually required to put this on syllabi now?
Haha, that's great. There is no way I would let that be in my syllabus, I would go find another job first. I can't imagine how that statement would help anything.
I don't know what they think it's helping. I'm in an applied field, and we never use that language in our department. I'm hoping this one is an aberration for the other department, but I'm concerned it's not.
Quote from: Caracal on September 22, 2021, 07:18:20 AM
That must come from some sort of for profit model, right?
It may come for a for-profit model, but I'm working at a public university (and other department is at the same university).
Not to derail this too much, but I fear something similar as we undergo an overhaul of our gen-ed requirements. Currently there's a plan for a faculty senate vote to approve new curricula that would allow for the thematizing of students' courses of study. So they might take a history, philosophy, or English courses in "environmental sustainability" or "social justice" or whatever. Admin is selling this as a way for students to have agency over their educations. Students like it because they feel like customers getting their money's worth. And faculty have been told that faculty senate will be the final vote -- the full voting faculty won't weigh in.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Ah, Brown University comes to the masses!
Quote from: arcturus on September 18, 2021, 03:50:02 AM
We use Canvas for our LMS and its "Inbox" provides name of student and course as the title of the email sent to my regular email account and the course is attached to the student's name in the "Inbox" itself. I insist that all students communicate with us using thie Canvas tool. This not only makes it easier to identify relevant course, but also to share emails and responses with the other instructors involved in the course.
I tend to prefer a regular email to an email that comes through the LMS.
If the student sends a regular email, they usually include a useful subject header. If the student sends a message through the LMS, the subject header is "Student name (class number - class name) just sent you a message in LMS" which doesn't tell me anything about what the content of the message or the action that will be required when I open it. I don't see the topic until I open the email.
Perhaps this difference in preference reflects well on the students at my institution and their typical email habits, or perhaps it shows that I avoid the LMS inbox and rely on my email interface to read and answer messages.
Five weeks into the semester and less than 2 hours before the exam, a student (who claims economic hardship) informs me that Stu does not have the textbook. I'm not a wizard who can waive a magic wand or Dr. Evil with many minions at my beck and call to provide you with the textbook on such short notice (even if you happen to be a speed reader).
Right.
What ever happened to minions?
We used to have several. Did they all graduate, or levitate, or whatever it is minions do for advancement?
(Or did they just not make it past the Great Divide Between the Fora?)
Or...maybe Dr. Evil could lend you a couple on a short-term contract?
M.
Yeah... we're in Week 6 of 18 and a student just asked me how he could read the e-book that he bought from the bookstore.
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 04:55:40 PM
Right.
What ever happened to minions?
We used to have several. Did they all graduate, or levitate, or whatever it is minions do for advancement?
(Or did they just not make it past the Great Divide Between the Fora?)
Or...maybe Dr. Evil could lend you a couple on a short-term contract?
M.
As a library director I have several of them. Handy to have, but they do create...issues that have to be dealt with. It took a long, long time to assemble a fairly good team of them from the random assortment of applicants on offer.
I've had to gently shoo away packs of students hanging out near the lab doors. The doors all say "Labs start the week of September 27-30", but the students "aren't sure if maybe they have lab".
The door is locked. The room is empty. The sign says your lab starts next week.
I suppose I should be glad that they have found the room, but they need to trust the information in the syllabus (and emails and announcements).
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 23, 2021, 10:15:31 AM
I've had to gently shoo away packs of students hanging out near the lab doors. The doors all say "Labs start the week of September 27-30", but the students "aren't sure if maybe they have lab".
The door is locked. The room is empty. The sign says your lab starts next week.
I suppose I should be glad that they have found the room, but they need to trust the information in the syllabus (and emails and announcements).
Sounds like a lot of worry and insecurity in that group of students. At least they're not just complacently blowing off their work.
Ugh. Had the worst class I've taught in a while. The students were brain dead. I was brain dead. I handed out the wrong assignment information. I couldn't get things back on track. I need a do-over.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 23, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
Ugh. Had the worst class I've taught in a while. The students were brain dead. I was brain dead. I handed out the wrong assignment information. I couldn't get things back on track. I need a do-over.
My sympathies. We've all been there, done that. It will get better.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 23, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
Ugh. Had the worst class I've taught in a while. The students were brain dead. I was brain dead. I handed out the wrong assignment information. I couldn't get things back on track. I need a do-over.
You need a stiff drink; the do-over can wait.
I'm entering feedback on a short daily assignment where students need to apply what they are reading in the assigned required book to a journal article. I'm very tempted to post "Tell me you don't have the book without telling me you don't have the book." but I'll stick with "How is it going reading X?"
It's a very short, $15* e-book.
*acknowledging that $15 can be a lot for some.
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 04:55:40 PM
Right.
What ever happened to minions?
We used to have several. Did they all graduate, or levitate, or whatever it is minions do for advancement?
(Or did they just not make it past the Great Divide Between the Fora?)
Or...maybe Dr. Evil could lend you a couple on a short-term contract?
M.
I've never had any minions. Having a couple around here could come in handy.
I know the Fiona had one or more, and Pry had one....was it mountainguy?
I wasn't ever keeping track but it was mentioned from time to time.
Dr. Evil may have had a couple, too, and Vox was always in touch with a dicey character known as Igor, who liked sharp, rusty, pointy things....(polite shudder) but the suggestion was also made that Igor was a sock, too, I think.
But...we haven't seen those spirits at this hotel since 1974....
And snarks are boojums, and...and....anyway, I don't know how minions were even acquired, really, they were already in place by the time I'd joined (c. 2009 or so, I think).
Hmmm....
Should we start a thread? Or two?
"Minions Wanted," or "Minions for Hire," or...maybe just one as a clearinghouse?
And so as not to hijack this thread too badly, although perhaps despair is always seeking some kind of hijack.....
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on September 23, 2021, 01:09:08 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 23, 2021, 12:46:17 PM
Ugh. Had the worst class I've taught in a while. The students were brain dead. I was brain dead. I handed out the wrong assignment information. I couldn't get things back on track. I need a do-over.
You need a stiff drink; the do-over can wait.
I came home to a new batch of punch in the fridge. We were out of rum--apparently this batch is tequila.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 22, 2021, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 12:59:02 PM
I "thematized" my undergraduate course of study--it was called a "Personalized Study Program," and my committee made it quite rigorous.
Which was fine with me, they required three added art history courses, one in aesthetics, and some other stuff, all of which I continue to be grateful for.
So focused, individualized work is not automatically the 'get out of jail free' card you fear it could be.
It's just different.
M.
I think the concern is that the students are deciding what themes get chosen, even if its through an administrative fiat. "We polled students and x% want to take the history of Wall Street and another y% don't want to take literature. Due to low enrollment, faculty lines in English have been cut, and the rest now grade for the new Business Writing course."
In theory, I wouldn't mind the idea of students being able to choose themes that are relevant to their majors and possible careers. The problem I see with the way our gen ed courses work is that the whole structure basically encourages students to see the whole thing as a pointless hoop to jump through. Mostly students seem to choose which classes they take based on convenience rather than any interest in the subject. That makes these classes pretty depressing. I'd much sooner teach the History of American Capitalism to business majors or the History of Health and Body Reforms to public health majors than something random to a bunch of people who have no investment in it.
As you say though, this all assumes this isn't just an excuse to water down requirements and marginalize less "profitable" majors. There's actually no reason you couldn't have a class about business in literature. Great Expectations, (or lots of Dickens Death of a Salesman, almost anything by Raymond Chandler, and that's just my crummy non-expert list.
Quote from: Caracal on September 24, 2021, 04:26:57 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 22, 2021, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 12:59:02 PM
I "thematized" my undergraduate course of study--it was called a "Personalized Study Program," and my committee made it quite rigorous.
Which was fine with me, they required three added art history courses, one in aesthetics, and some other stuff, all of which I continue to be grateful for.
So focused, individualized work is not automatically the 'get out of jail free' card you fear it could be.
It's just different.
M.
I think the concern is that the students are deciding what themes get chosen, even if its through an administrative fiat. "We polled students and x% want to take the history of Wall Street and another y% don't want to take literature. Due to low enrollment, faculty lines in English have been cut, and the rest now grade for the new Business Writing course."
In theory, I wouldn't mind the idea of students being able to choose themes that are relevant to their majors and possible careers. The problem I see with the way our gen ed courses work is that the whole structure basically encourages students to see the whole thing as a pointless hoop to jump through. Mostly students seem to choose which classes they take based on convenience rather than any interest in the subject. That makes these classes pretty depressing. I'd much sooner teach the History of American Capitalism to business majors or the History of Health and Body Reforms to public health majors than something random to a bunch of people who have no investment in it.
As you say though, this all assumes this isn't just an excuse to water down requirements and marginalize less "profitable" majors. There's actually no reason you couldn't have a class about business in literature. Great Expectations, (or lots of Dickens Death of a Salesman, almost anything by Raymond Chandler, and that's just my crummy non-expert list.
I think the concern is that the "tracks" will essentially be created by admin to placate students, based on some sort of poll or survey. And the idea isn't just that "you should offer a literature of Capitalism" course, but that there'll be an entire track through all gen-ed courses. With this comes a necessary drop in required hours at the 200 level, and the potentially reallocating those courses into other departments. So it may be that PHIL is required to offer X number of "philosophy of capitalism" classes, which are subsequently cancelled because the business school is offering their own version Business Ethics that satisfy the same requirements. I know that English is concerned that some of the soft-money lines for composition will be rerouted to the Business school, since under the new plan they'll be able to offer business courses that fulfill the freshman writing requirement.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 24, 2021, 06:30:07 AM
So it may be that PHIL is required to offer X number of "philosophy of capitalism" classes, which are subsequently cancelled because the business school is offering their own version Business Ethics that satisfy the same requirements. I know that English is concerned that some of the soft-money lines for composition will be rerouted to the Business school, since under the new plan they'll be able to offer business courses that fulfill the freshman writing requirement.
This issue is a complex one; when one department, such as math or English, teaches courses to serve other departments or faculties, there is often a point at which those other departments consider actually teaching the courses themselves.
Does it make sense for a department to exist primarily to provide very specific courses for others? If so, to what extent should the others dictate the content and approach in those courses?
Would this be a good discussion to have in its own thread?
Quote from: RatGuy on September 24, 2021, 06:30:07 AM
Quote from: Caracal on September 24, 2021, 04:26:57 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 22, 2021, 02:08:07 PM
Quote from: mamselle on September 22, 2021, 12:59:02 PM
I "thematized" my undergraduate course of study--it was called a "Personalized Study Program," and my committee made it quite rigorous.
Which was fine with me, they required three added art history courses, one in aesthetics, and some other stuff, all of which I continue to be grateful for.
So focused, individualized work is not automatically the 'get out of jail free' card you fear it could be.
It's just different.
M.
I think the concern is that the students are deciding what themes get chosen, even if its through an administrative fiat. "We polled students and x% want to take the history of Wall Street and another y% don't want to take literature. Due to low enrollment, faculty lines in English have been cut, and the rest now grade for the new Business Writing course."
In theory, I wouldn't mind the idea of students being able to choose themes that are relevant to their majors and possible careers. The problem I see with the way our gen ed courses work is that the whole structure basically encourages students to see the whole thing as a pointless hoop to jump through. Mostly students seem to choose which classes they take based on convenience rather than any interest in the subject. That makes these classes pretty depressing. I'd much sooner teach the History of American Capitalism to business majors or the History of Health and Body Reforms to public health majors than something random to a bunch of people who have no investment in it.
As you say though, this all assumes this isn't just an excuse to water down requirements and marginalize less "profitable" majors. There's actually no reason you couldn't have a class about business in literature. Great Expectations, (or lots of Dickens Death of a Salesman, almost anything by Raymond Chandler, and that's just my crummy non-expert list.
I think the concern is that the "tracks" will essentially be created by admin to placate students, based on some sort of poll or survey. And the idea isn't just that "you should offer a literature of Capitalism" course, but that there'll be an entire track through all gen-ed courses. With this comes a necessary drop in required hours at the 200 level, and the potentially reallocating those courses into other departments. So it may be that PHIL is required to offer X number of "philosophy of capitalism" classes, which are subsequently cancelled because the business school is offering their own version Business Ethics that satisfy the same requirements. I know that English is concerned that some of the soft-money lines for composition will be rerouted to the Business school, since under the new plan they'll be able to offer business courses that fulfill the freshman writing requirement.
Ugh, that doesn't sound good. It's a shame because there is an actual opportunity there for meaningful engagement but it sounds like it is just being rerouted into professionalism.
Marking a master's thesis right now. Student did very nicely with Figures 3-5--straightforward bar plots with multiple crossed factors, all well and good.
And now, suddenly, in Figure 6, she's smacking me in the face with 3d bars. Why? why why why? Curse you, Excel!
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 24, 2021, 07:21:59 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on September 24, 2021, 06:30:07 AM
So it may be that PHIL is required to offer X number of "philosophy of capitalism" classes, which are subsequently cancelled because the business school is offering their own version Business Ethics that satisfy the same requirements. I know that English is concerned that some of the soft-money lines for composition will be rerouted to the Business school, since under the new plan they'll be able to offer business courses that fulfill the freshman writing requirement.
This issue is a complex one; when one department, such as math or English, teaches courses to serve other departments or faculties, there is often a point at which those other departments consider actually teaching the courses themselves.
Does it make sense for a department to exist primarily to provide very specific courses for others? If so, to what extent should the others dictate the content and approach in those courses?
Would this be a good discussion to have in its own thread?
At our CC we also have an issue of transferability. Our clear Math, English, History, Econ, etc courses articulate directly to the state 4-year system. But we are technically only a 2 year college so we can only offer lower-division courses.
So when other departments decide to make their own versions of Math, etc, they often don't transfer and the student is the one stuck with wasted units and time.
Apparently, based on these papers I've been grading, students can now graduate from high school with absolutely no sense of what a research source is, much less ever having used one. Documentation is also a completely new word for them.
Argh!
Quote from: Larimar on September 24, 2021, 12:20:23 PM
Apparently, based on these papers I've been grading, students can now graduate from high school with absolutely no sense of what a research source is, much less ever having used one. Documentation is also a completely new word for them.
Argh!
Based on the most recent student submissions for a scaffolding assignment (first stage, leading up to a final paper) where they were told to state their sources, my students will be using "trusted sources" and "credible sources". So, yes, I am totally confident that they will be able to complete their work with such awesome sources at their fingertips. [/sarcasm]
Quote from: Larimar on September 24, 2021, 12:20:23 PM
Apparently, based on these papers I've been grading, students can now graduate from high school with absolutely no sense of what a research source is, much less ever having used one. Documentation is also a completely new word for them.
Argh!
I doubt that anyone really collects data on this stuff. From talking to a few people my impression is that the main motivation of administrators in HS is to get all the students graduated, no matter what.
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2021, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: Larimar on September 24, 2021, 12:20:23 PM
Apparently, based on these papers I've been grading, students can now graduate from high school with absolutely no sense of what a research source is, much less ever having used one. Documentation is also a completely new word for them.
Argh!
I doubt that anyone really collects data on this stuff. From talking to a few people my impression is that the main motivation of administrators in HS is to get all the students graduated, no matter what.
And the "everyone graduates" plus the pandemic means our freshmen have mostly had a really odd senior year of high school. They are going to need a lot of scaffolding and training.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 25, 2021, 07:49:32 AM
Quote from: downer on September 24, 2021, 04:35:09 PM
Quote from: Larimar on September 24, 2021, 12:20:23 PM
Apparently, based on these papers I've been grading, students can now graduate from high school with absolutely no sense of what a research source is, much less ever having used one. Documentation is also a completely new word for them.
Argh!
I doubt that anyone really collects data on this stuff. From talking to a few people my impression is that the main motivation of administrators in HS is to get all the students graduated, no matter what.
And the "everyone graduates" plus the pandemic means our freshmen have mostly had a really odd senior year of high school. They are going to need a lot of scaffolding and training.
This is the double edged sword of compulsory public education. When the government
has to essentially make sure everyone "graduates", it's vastly easier to lower the bar to "graduation" than deal with all of the complex, (and in some cases still unsolved), issues regarding academic achievement.
Dear TAs,
The graduate level course you are taking is only offered in person. You are all teaching your labs/discussions/whatever IN PERSON. No, I will not move the class to a hybrid format because "some of you might be in contact with immunocompromised folks/people over age 65/have children under age 12 that don't attend school". I'd change the class for documented need for accommodation (e.g. living with an immunocompromised partner/parent/roommate). But I'm not changing the format due to a hypothetical need. Yes, we will all wear masks. Yes, we can sanitize the surfaces. Yes, we can sit 6 feet apart. No, you cannot Zoom in. You can always drop the class & take it later.
Stu claims to have been so traumatized by an encounter with the police that Stu could not take the exam and could not notify me until a week after the exam. Yet Stu managed to endure the torture of me droning on in a Zoom session 2 days after the exam. Stu also has not completed any of the assignments or viewed any of the content modules beyond week 1.
Quote from: ergative on September 18, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
AAAAARARRRFHGHAGAHRARGHGHAH
Quote from: ergative on September 29, 2021, 12:20:11 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 18, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
AAAAARARRRFHGHAGAHRARGHGHAH
I get that all the time. I've started sending back a polite request for their class and section so I can promptly and accurately answer their question.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to help. Many students respond with "sorry, my name is Stu Dent." I didn't ASK for your NAME. Some respond with their class, but not their section which narrows it down, but I still have to hunt.
Student: "we've had the opportunity to study some unsocialized children like Tarzan."
Quote from: Charlotte on September 29, 2021, 07:26:48 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 29, 2021, 12:20:11 AM
Quote from: ergative on September 18, 2021, 12:29:37 AM
Too many times this week:
Hi, there,
I'm in your class, and I want to know [reasonable question].
Thanks!
Stu
WHICH CLASS, STU? WHICH CLASS? I'm responsible for eight different classes this year (well, five preps (3/2), but three of them are cross-listed UG and grad), and I'm teaching on two other courses. WHICH CLASS ARE YOU ASKING ABOUT?
AAAAARARRRFHGHAGAHRARGHGHAH
I get that all the time. I've started sending back a polite request for their class and section so I can promptly and accurately answer their question.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to help. Many students respond with "sorry, my name is Stu Dent." I didn't ASK for your NAME. Some respond with their class, but not their section which narrows it down, but I still have to hunt.
I put it in my syllabus that all email has to have the class number in the subject line. And that's always one of the questions in the quiz on the syllabus at the start of the semester.
If a student still fails to do that, I just reply "what class?" and press
send. If they do it again, I press
delete.
Quote from: Charlotte on September 29, 2021, 07:28:27 AM
Student: "we've had the opportunity to study some unsocialized children like Tarzan."
Yes.
They populate our classrooms.
M.
I teach a course focused on a theme — for the sake of anonymity, let's say that theme is basketweaving. This is the fourth week of the semester. At the end of today's class, a student came up to me to ask what the word was I kept using that starts with a b. I said, "basketweaving," and she replied, "What is that? I don't know that word."
The term has been defined, redefined, and discussed since the first day. And the students got to choose their course section by which theme drew their interest.
Just, wow.
We are 1/3 of the way through the semester, and 1/3 of the students in my online class have done ZERO work.
About 1/3 are on track for huge success, and the remainder are pathetic but not yet doomed.
So, business as usual.
Quote from: FishProf on October 06, 2021, 09:31:02 AM
We are 1/3 of the way through the semester, and 1/3 of the students in my online class have done ZERO work.
About 1/3 are on track for huge success, and the remainder are pathetic but not yet doomed.
So, business as usual.
It's week 2 here and we're in person for most all classes. Students in the non-majors lab are doing really well - turning things in on time, going to class, etc. Students in the majors lab, not so much. They are losing points for just not turning stuff in (or turning it in late).
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 06, 2021, 12:02:13 PM
Quote from: FishProf on October 06, 2021, 09:31:02 AM
We are 1/3 of the way through the semester, and 1/3 of the students in my online class have done ZERO work.
About 1/3 are on track for huge success, and the remainder are pathetic but not yet doomed.
So, business as usual.
It's week 2 here and we're in person for most all classes. Students in the non-majors lab are doing really well - turning things in on time, going to class, etc. Students in the majors lab, not so much. They are losing points for just not turning stuff in (or turning it in late).
Sometimes it's not perfectionism, but complacency, that is the enemy of the good.....not only does no system know what it doesn't know, but (perhaps as a corollary) no system (person) who thinks they know but are forgetting things, won't remember what they're forgetting...)
M.
This week's exam results are in. And the Apathy Meter is off the charts!
The average student missed two-thirds of all exam questions. Only three students answered about half of the exam questions correctly. Granted, it's a small class of less than 30 students. But the top scorers still missing approximately half of the exam? That's epic failure.
This might be the single worst performing class that I've ever had. I'm not thinking that I have any A or B-level students at all in this class this semester. That's just really weird.
Nearly a third of the class didn't even bother showing up for the exam. That's also really weird.
Similar apathy and in an upper division course in the major no less. Students did poorly on the first exam. I let them redo several questions to earn more points, but nearly 50% of the class didn't bother to do it.
Got an email yesterday morning from a student who said they were sick (fever, achy) & what should they do.
I told them to stay home, rest, and fill out [absence form].
They emailed back that they felt so much better after eating breakfast that they went class.
Argh!!
If you are sick, then stay home!
I really, really hope they didn't just infect that entire class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 08, 2021, 07:12:57 AM
Got an email yesterday morning from a student who said they were sick (fever, achy) & what should they do.
I told them to stay home, rest, and fill out [absence form].
They emailed back that they felt so much better after eating breakfast that they went class.
Argh!!
If you are sick, then stay home!
I really, really hope they didn't just infect that entire class.
Well, hopefully the student was just having a bit of a hypochondriac episode that was fixed by breakfast, and wasn't really sick in the first place.
Stu! I made step-by-step videos explaining the process. Among them I emphasized Thing and Right Way to Handle Thing. I had annotated slides that I presented in class, pointing out Thing and demonstrating Right Way To Handle Thing. Why are you emailing me, to say that you've just observed this odd pattern (which is Thing), and asking if you should proceed in Wrong Way to Handle Thing?
You've struck me as reasonably diligent and attentive in class. How did you miss Thing? Was it a brain fart? Or was it just a new experience to observe Thing in your own data rather than having it presented to you in the teaching materials? Or are you only giving the impression of being diligent and attentive, with all your questions and emails, when in fact you aren't at all?
Nearly half of one class did not bother submitting their online exam this week. And they had three days to do pick a time to complete it. And the deadline for requesting an extension on that exam is this afternoon. And so far, not a single person has requested an extension.
A zero on a major exam makes for an unrecoverable total course grade.
I may end up reporting at the end of the term that most of this class section will not have earned passing marks. The aggregate work ethic in certain types of students this semester is the worst that I can ever recall, even during the height of covid. My introductory courses for 1st-year students almost feel like they're a waste of time to even be offering, with so many of the students not seeming to care.
It seems the administration's ill-advised decision to allow students to lelct Pass-Fail AFTER the receive their final grade in the previous 3 covid-affected semesters has trained a non-trivial proportion of our students to expect that get-out-of-jail-free option this semester. That is not coming.
Steep learning curve ahead.
Student emails to ask if they can take their final exam online because flights are cheaper if they leave before our final exam. This is an in person class, all of our exams are in person, and university policy clearly states students need to plan their travel for after their last exam, but sure, why wouldn't I set up a special online exam just for your convenience /NOT.
I'm offering students extra credit if they bring a [thing] for lab. They have had a week to do so. There is a box outside my office to put [thing] in. I sent a reminder with a picture of the box for [thing] saying that they could drop off their [thing] any time before the deadline. The deadline is today at 4:00 (because I will be trying to leave campus by 5:00).
I got a panicked email from a student saying "You said to bring [thing] Monday at 4:00, but I have class. What do I do?!?"
Bang! Bang! Bang!
Do I need to write things differently so students don't think the "due date" is the day you do something?
Here's a new one. I got an email today from a student, in one of my online labs, who just realized that stu was emailing the WRONG professor about the Midterm exam. Really? How do you not know who teaches your class? Did you miss my name, in all caps, on the syllabus? Or maybe you missed it in all of the Announcements that I've been posting for the past 8 weeks in D2L?
Stu can't get Respondus to work and so can't take the Midterm. We've only had a practice quiz online since the first day of class. I've only been posting announcements about it for the past few weeks. It's only in the syllabus...
Am I expecting too much from them?
And of course, I'm the bad guy in all of this. Banging my head against the wall...
Double post.
I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...
I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.
Deliberately misunderstanding you may be a way of trying to push boundaries, not the result of illiteracy.
Not much more encouraging, but it gives you the option of misunderstanding them back...
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 08, 2021, 07:12:57 AM
Got an email yesterday morning from a student who said they were sick (fever, achy) & what should they do.
I told them to stay home, rest, and fill out [absence form].
They emailed back that they felt so much better after eating breakfast that they went class.
Argh!!
If you are sick, then stay home!
I really, really hope they didn't just infect that entire class.
Hmm, well if they actually took their temperature and had a fever that morning, obviously should stay home. Pre-covid, I sometimes had mornings where I wondered if I was coming down with something, but realized after breakfast and a cup of coffee that I was just loggy.
It can be easy to forget that students often have limited experience with being an adult human and deciding whether they are actually sick or not. I also vaguely recall that the 18-23 period was weird physically. If I tried to live the way I did then, now, I wouldn't make it, but I couldn't just ignore my body in the way I could when I was 16. At 16 I could get 3 hours of sleep, stagger to class and then just move along with the rest of my day. By 20, that didn't really work anymore. So, its possible your student finished a paper at 2 in the morning, then polished off a six pack with their roommates, got 2 hours of sleep, woke up not feeling great, and concluded they must be getting sick.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2021, 06:17:10 PM
Double post.
I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...
I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.
It's a combination of Stu using a phone for the course, not reading the announcements, and deciding that it doesn't hurt to ask just in case the instructor caves to these demands. I once had to use the analogy of a five-year-old repeatedly asking Mom for something that Mom had explicitly refused earlier. The students in this class had a sense of humor, so no one was offended when I pointed out that this sometimes works with Mom, but not with a professor.
Just got another email asking about extra credit to raise a 77% to a B. Nope. Sorry. That's not how it works.
I have noticed that a lot of these emails I've been getting are from high school kids taking college courses. Did they learn somewhere along the way that extra credit will save the day? SMH.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 12, 2021, 06:48:06 AM
Just got another email asking about extra credit to raise a 77% to a B. Nope. Sorry. That's not how it works.
I have noticed that a lot of these emails I've been getting are from high school kids taking college courses. Did they learn somewhere along the way that extra credit will save the day? SMH.
Remember that the students who bother you with this crap are a tiny percentage of the total. Most of them are just there doing their work, accepting their grades and letting you do your job.
Quote from: Caracal on October 12, 2021, 06:57:42 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 12, 2021, 06:48:06 AM
Just got another email asking about extra credit to raise a 77% to a B. Nope. Sorry. That's not how it works.
I have noticed that a lot of these emails I've been getting are from high school kids taking college courses. Did they learn somewhere along the way that extra credit will save the day? SMH.
Remember that the students who bother you with this crap are a tiny percentage of the total. Most of them are just there doing their work, accepting their grades and letting you do your job.
Point. I've just been really stressed the past few weeks, so the little stuff is getting to me.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 12, 2021, 06:48:06 AM
Just got another email asking about extra credit to raise a 77% to a B. Nope. Sorry. That's not how it works.
I have noticed that a lot of these emails I've been getting are from high school kids taking college courses. Did they learn somewhere along the way that extra credit will save the day? SMH.
I've taught college classes to high schoolers in three states. One of these states had a statewide lottery scholarship that gave students with a certain GPA and certain ACT score a lot of money towards college. My high school students panicked with anything below an A--on any work, not just in the course--because a lower GPA meant less or no money. A huge percentage dropped after receiving B's on Paper 2. And I was told (by teachers, not students) that some of the HS teachers
do use extra credit to help their students (which, in turn, also looks better for the school).
AR.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 12, 2021, 05:50:22 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2021, 06:17:10 PM
Double post.
I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...
I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.
It's a combination of Stu using a phone for the course, not reading the announcements, and deciding that it doesn't hurt to ask just in case the instructor caves to these demands. I once had to use the analogy of a five-year-old repeatedly asking Mom for something that Mom had explicitly refused earlier. The students in this class had a sense of humor, so no one was offended when I pointed out that this sometimes works with Mom, but not with a professor.
Good point about using a phone. The small screen makes it easy to overlook something and hard to read anything longer than a text message.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 12, 2021, 06:52:59 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 12, 2021, 05:50:22 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2021, 06:17:10 PM
Double post.
I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...
I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.
It's a combination of Stu using a phone for the course, not reading the announcements, and deciding that it doesn't hurt to ask just in case the instructor caves to these demands. I once had to use the analogy of a five-year-old repeatedly asking Mom for something that Mom had explicitly refused earlier. The students in this class had a sense of humor, so no one was offended when I pointed out that this sometimes works with Mom, but not with a professor.
Good point about using a phone. The small screen makes it easy to overlook something and hard to read anything longer than a text message.
Actually, I didn't mention that this student wanted to have stu's lab reports as a 'slide show' on another device for reference during the exam.
WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins. What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 12, 2021, 11:04:50 PM
What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?
In my experience, Professor X gets feeble pushback from HS admins, reminds them this is a college course, and that is the end of it.
Then again, I am no longer teaching Dual-Enrollment classes. I don't know if there is a link.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 12, 2021, 11:04:50 PM
WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins. What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?
I think there's nothing wrong with enforcing a stated syllabus policy. Using notes on a closed-book quiz is straightforwardly cheating. But I do think there are problems with professors not responding to emails, even if they're super annoying and repetitive. At a minimum, the professor should make a class-wide announcement (
in writing--by email or Moodle announcement, or whatever CMS there is) to say 'Hey, I'm getting lots of questions about open-notes on quizzes. Remember, this is bad and cheating and see pg 4 of the syllabus.'
It's such an easy step to take to avoid the hassle that might ensue if the professor ignores a student email and then punishes the student for doing the thing they said they would do in the email. Sure, probablyl in the end the grade appeal board or student conduct board or whatever will eventually agree with the professor. But why let it get to that stage, when answering emails with 'see pg 4 of the syllabus' or posting a periodic reminder to see pg 4 of the syllabus can head it all off at the pass?
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 12, 2021, 11:04:50 PM
WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins. What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?
I can't really understand how it would get to that point. Before I give an exam, I always say "please put everything away except x." (in my case, a blue book and a blank piece of paper for outlining) I then do a cursory scan to make sure everyone actually has put everything away. If a student isn't supposed to have anything on their desk and they have their notebook open, wouldn't you just come over and tell them to put it away before you handed out the exam?
Stu is taking my section of an introductory engineering course for the third time. He took it once with me and late dropped, took it with a colleague and failed, and now he's on his third and final chance. In our program, to take a class again after late dropping or failing twice requires forms and signatures from multiple people. So, Stu had to put in a lot of effort to take the class again. Wish he was putting in as much effort trying to actually pass it this time. He's worked his way down to a D, routinely skips lecture, has skipped a few labs, and I've flagged him in the early intervention system, talked to him about his lack of participation and its impact on his grade, and he doesn't seem that bothered. **sigh** I can't care more than he does, but if he fails again, he's out of engineering. The worst part, at least to me, is the work he does do is pretty good and he could easily pass. I just get the feeling that he doesn't want to be here.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2021, 10:05:56 AM
Stu is taking my section of an introductory engineering course for the third time. He took it once with me and late dropped, took it with a colleague and failed, and now he's on his third and final chance. In our program, to take a class again after late dropping or failing twice requires forms and signatures from multiple people. So, Stu had to put in a lot of effort to take the class again. Wish he was putting in as much effort trying to actually pass it this time. He's worked his way down to a D, routinely skips lecture, has skipped a few labs, and I've flagged him in the early intervention system, talked to him about his lack of participation and its impact on his grade, and he doesn't seem that bothered. **sigh** I can't care more than he does, but if he fails again, he's out of engineering. The worst part, at least to me, is the work he does do is pretty good and he could easily pass. I just get the feeling that he doesn't want to be here.
Stu does not want to be an engineer. Stu's
parents want him to be an engineer.
+1.
Capacity but no motivation = parental pressure. Does the school have an internship program in any aspect of engineering?
That might help weed out the true, aspiring engineers from the kids whose mommies and daddies told them it was a good job and that's what they should do.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on October 13, 2021, 11:51:16 AM
+1.
Capacity but no motivation = parental pressure. Does the school have an internship program in any aspect of engineering?
That might help weed out the true, aspiring engineers from the kids whose mommies and daddies told them it was a good job and that's what they should do.
M.
I teach in an allied health program that leads to professional licensure and good job opportunities. A while back, we had a student who very much did NOT want to pursue the degree we had on offer. She tried repeatedly to flunk out. Sadly, her mother was the Chair of the Board of Trustees and everybody on the faculty knew it. NOBODY was going to take the risk of flunking out the daughter of the board chair. We all found some excuse to heave the kid across the line and into the next course. She eventually graduated, but as far as anybody knows, is NOT working in the profession helicopter mommy chose for her.
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 13, 2021, 11:48:12 AM
Stu does not want to be an engineer. Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.
That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.
And to mamselle (can't figure out how to double quote), we do have internships, require them actually so the students can get a taste of the realities of the field, but they need to get past their first-year courses in order to apply. I hope this particular student (he's nice enough, and I've asked him before if he really wants to be here, and he's always said yes) figures out sooner rather than later what he would like to do other than be a mechanical engineer.
Yes, then he could add it to the list of, as Edison is said to have put it, includes the "499 things that don't work" for him.
M.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2021, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 13, 2021, 11:48:12 AM
Stu does not want to be an engineer. Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.
That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.
You have to feel sorry for a student in such a position. But you've seen evidence that the student can do good work when engaged? I wonder what the student
would like to do. Another STEM field? Something outside of STEM?
I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand. What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort. It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.
Quote from: apl68 on October 13, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2021, 12:03:20 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 13, 2021, 11:48:12 AM
Stu does not want to be an engineer. Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.
That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.
You have to feel sorry for a student in such a position. But you've seen evidence that the student can do good work when engaged? I wonder what the student would like to do. Another STEM field? Something outside of STEM?
I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand. What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort. It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.
I'm not sure what he wants because when I ask (politely and kindly) if he really wants to be here, or wants to do something else, he says that he does want to be here and study engineering. I've even suggested he go to our career counselors, etc. but no dice. That is why it truly makes it a bang my head in despair situation for me, he's smart, and capable when he wants to be, but is just floating along with no direction wasting his, or someone else's, money and taking up a seat someone else could have. But, I can't make his decisions for him, and there's only so much prodding I can do.
Quote from: apl68 on October 13, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand. What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort. It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.
The irony is that high school is very bad training for bright students. Its emphasis on getting the masses through means that good students can cruise through with little effort, so the ones who could most benefit from higher education have been prevented from developing decent work habits. This is why cutting funding for gifted programs because they're "elitist" is shooting society in the foot, because those are the people whose contributions society desperately needs. Gifted programs actually help students develop good habits
because they are at an appropriately challenging level.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 14, 2021, 06:13:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 13, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand. What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort. It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.
The irony is that high school is very bad training for bright students. Its emphasis on getting the masses through means that good students can cruise through with little effort, so the ones who could most benefit from higher education have been prevented from developing decent work habits. This is why cutting funding for gifted programs because they're "elitist" is shooting society in the foot, because those are the people whose contributions society desperately needs. Gifted programs actually help students develop good habits because they are at an appropriately challenging level.
I dunno, I think that the people society needs changes wildly depending on circumstances. The UK really, really needs a bunch of truck drivers right now, for example, and during peak lockdown society needed a whole bunch of people to pack and deliver groceries. There's a discussion to be had about whether gifted programs should be preserved, to be sure, but I think that basing that discussion on the assumption that society 'needs' the students who test into that program more than it 'needs' the students who wouldn't qualify runs into problems.
Quote from: ergative on October 14, 2021, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 14, 2021, 06:13:48 AM
Quote from: apl68 on October 13, 2021, 03:06:51 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand. What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort. It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.
The irony is that high school is very bad training for bright students. Its emphasis on getting the masses through means that good students can cruise through with little effort, so the ones who could most benefit from higher education have been prevented from developing decent work habits. This is why cutting funding for gifted programs because they're "elitist" is shooting society in the foot, because those are the people whose contributions society desperately needs. Gifted programs actually help students develop good habits because they are at an appropriately challenging level.
I dunno, I think that the people society needs changes wildly depending on circumstances. The UK really, really needs a bunch of truck drivers right now, for example, and during peak lockdown society needed a whole bunch of people to pack and deliver groceries. There's a discussion to be had about whether gifted programs should be preserved, to be sure, but I think that basing that discussion on the assumption that society 'needs' the students who test into that program more than it 'needs' the students who wouldn't qualify runs into problems.
It's not that society need them
more, so much as that society needs them to be able to
achieve up to their potential (in the same way as truck drivers), but that school often undermines that. For the truck drivers, school mainly has to provide basic literacy and numeracy; the skills they'll need for employment will be learned on the job. For students who are suited to more intellectual pursuits, the jobs skills they will need are the kind that education
should provide. If it doesn't, they will have a hard time overcoming that.
I have scaffolded assignments related to the major project in my class to encourage students to spread the work over the entire semester, rather than cramming it in at the end, when they have major assignments also due in their other classes. However, this does not work effectively when students submit "I have not made any progress yet on my project because I had midterm exams in my other classes this week." as their mid-semester update. Yes, you may have had exams in your other classes *this week*, but it has been *four weeks* since your last check-in on the project. You have had plenty of time (and notice) to make at least some progress. What is the point of scaffolding if students don't do the work associated with it?
I'm running into this as well, I give a series of low stakes assignments that are practice and build the skills and concepts needed to demonstrate understanding on our exams. For most students, if they have done the assignments, the exams are "surprisingly easy" because they have become familiar with what they need to do and have gotten feedback on misconceptions and common errors to help them improve. But I have a large group this term who seem to be putting off their assignment practice until the day of the exam, despite repeated reminders from me to spend about 30 minutes each day and do at least one practice assignment so you are on track.
Quote from: Istiblennius on October 18, 2021, 09:12:28 AM
I'm running into this as well, I give a series of low stakes assignments that are practice and build the skills and concepts needed to demonstrate understanding on our exams. For most students, if they have done the assignments, the exams are "surprisingly easy" because they have become familiar with what they need to do and have gotten feedback on misconceptions and common errors to help them improve. But I have a large group this term who seem to be putting off their assignment practice until the day of the exam, despite repeated reminders from me to spend about 30 minutes each day and do at least one practice assignment so you are on track.
And this is why I am NOT a fan of "self-paced" classes. Lots of students need the structure of regular due dates & deadlines to not fall behind. Trying to cram all of it in at once is also a really ineffective way to learn.
Quote from: arcturus on October 18, 2021, 08:55:58 AM
I have scaffolded assignments related to the major project in my class to encourage students to spread the work over the entire semester, rather than cramming it in at the end, when they have major assignments also due in their other classes. However, this does not work effectively when students submit "I have not made any progress yet on my project because I had midterm exams in my other classes this week." as their mid-semester update. Yes, you may have had exams in your other classes *this week*, but it has been *four weeks* since your last check-in on the project. You have had plenty of time (and notice) to make at least some progress. What is the point of scaffolding if students don't do the work associated with it?
That's why I usually try to make at least parts of the scaffolding full graded assignments. If students write a proposal or draft it usually counts for 5 percent of the overall grade or something. I'm pretty generous with the grading of these assignments, but it gets most students to make a good faith effort.
It is unfortunately true that unless it has points attached, many students do not see it as worth doing.
Oh, there are grades attached for the scaffolding. At percentage levels that are higher than the weekly assignments associated with my class. That does not mean that my students are doing the work, though.
Now that we're at the mid-point in the term and large numbers of students realize that they have no prayer of passing, I am receiving numerous requests to "help me pass".
Me: "How have you been doing on the practice tests?"
Stu Dent: "I didn't take them."
Every. Single. Time. This. Answer.
I just had to tell a graduate TA that they should not just email all of their students the answers to the practice problems.
The answers are posted for the students, they need to take the initiative to try the practice problems first.
I think I need to sit down with this TA and say "you can't learn it for them".
Yet another reason I do not share the exam questions with TAs before the exam. You can't share what you don't know . . . .
I gave a lecture today that wraps up the 1st half of the semester in advance of Friday's mid-term exam. If I didn't know better, I would think I was lecturing to the wrong class as they seemed to not have heard of ANYTHING I was talking about.
It was akin to lecturing on how the Krebs cycle works and students asking "what's an atom?".
I literally beat my head on the desk in front of my class today. They were amused.
The should, instead, be very afraid.
Quote from: FishProf on October 18, 2021, 06:08:25 PM
I gave a lecture today that wraps up the 1st half of the semester in advance of Friday's mid-term exam. If I didn't know better, I would think I was lecturing to the wrong class as they seemed to not have heard of ANYTHING I was talking about.
It was akin to lecturing on how the Krebs cycle works and students asking "what's an atom?".
I literally beat my head on the desk in front of my class today. They were amused.
The should, instead, be very afraid.
Ages ago, when I started teaching, I had a review session, the last meeting before the final exam. The idea was to have the kids ask questions from the material over the semester. I got floored right away: Could you go over Lecture 1, please? Went on in this vein, with the more significant interspersal of questions such as: What's really important in Lecture 1, you know, like, for an exam?
Well, I did this only once or twice, and then stopped.
We are entering our eighth week of the semester and Wow! I have one of my worst classes ever. They are generally nice people but barely competent. We keep going over...and over...and over...and over comma-splices...and every time we have to start from scratch. I mean, our kids are not the best students, but this is worse even than the classes at my old rural CC.
Then I had to send an email because so many had flunked or were on the verge of flunking because of the attendance policy. I offered a qualified amnesty for people who should now starting coming to class. It worked somewhat...
This morning I see a young stranger peering at my over the top of his mask. Had he made a mistake? No, he sits through class. As he stands up to leave I ask, "Excuse me, but are you in this class?"
He mumbles, "...yeah..." Yup, there's his name on my roster.
"You have missed the entire first seven weeks," I say. "The withdrawal date is the end of the month. You probably want to do that."
He sadly nods and mumbles, "...thank you..."
Argh! What the heckfire!!! Even the amnesty does not allow for missing literally half the semester.
So then a guest lecture in one of our grad classes. These are also a pretty lackluster bunch, although we have a couple who are smart enough...kind'a...
It does not stop some of them from being rude.
Maybe we are still underwater with COVID, but...I want this semester over, over, over.
Quote from: dismalist on October 18, 2021, 06:26:59 PM
Ages ago, when I started teaching, I had a review session, the last meeting before the final exam. The idea was to have the kids ask questions from the material over the semester. I got floored right away: Could you go over Lecture 1, please? Went on in this vein, with the more significant interspersal of questions such as: What's really important in Lecture 1, you know, like, for an exam?
Well, I did this only once or twice, and then stopped.
I have explicitly explained that they need to ask SPECIFIC questions at the review. "Can you go over X" is not a specific question.
Is THIS on the test? Strictly verboten.
Quote from: FishProf on October 19, 2021, 03:57:30 AM
Quote from: dismalist on October 18, 2021, 06:26:59 PM
Ages ago, when I started teaching, I had a review session, the last meeting before the final exam. The idea was to have the kids ask questions from the material over the semester. I got floored right away: Could you go over Lecture 1, please? Went on in this vein, with the more significant interspersal of questions such as: What's really important in Lecture 1, you know, like, for an exam?
Well, I did this only once or twice, and then stopped.
I have explicitly explained that they need to ask SPECIFIC questions at the review. "Can you go over X" is not a specific question.
Is THIS on the test? Strictly verboten.
I just did a review session yesterday where I had told them in advance that I would only answer specific questions and class would end early if they stopped asking questions. They managed to keep it up for a solid hour of the 90 min. block, so that was pretty good. However, I estimate 25% of the students there asked 75% or more of the questions. The rest sat there waiting to benefit from the superior preparation of their colleagues. Still others didn't come at all since I said it was optional. One guess as to who will do best on the exam tomorrow.
QuoteThis morning I see a young stranger peering at my over the top of his mask. Had he made a mistake? No, he sits through class. As he stands up to leave I ask, "Excuse me, but are you in this class?"
Ha! This reminded me of the (pre-COVID) time when a young man with very full and long beard showed up for the final exam; when I had last seen him, he had been clean shaven.
Dear TAs,
When I say "the only thing the students are allowed during the exam are [things]" and when I walk into the room and see several students with other items out while taking the exam, yes I am going to "look upset". At you. Because you should have noticed.
PS This class has a prerequisite of calculus. It is entirely reasonable to ask them to do elementary level math without a calculator (like "what is 400-40").
Quote from: FishProf on October 19, 2021, 03:57:30 AM
Is THIS on the test?
fringehusband insists you can shut down this behavior for an entire semester by cackling and saying "well, it is NOW" the first time someone asks a question in that format.
Quote from: onthefringe on October 19, 2021, 07:35:40 PM
Quote from: FishProf on October 19, 2021, 03:57:30 AM
Is THIS on the test?
fringehusband insists you can shut down this behavior for an entire semester by cackling and saying "well, it is NOW" the first time someone asks a question in that format.
Yep. Or you could say, 'Hmm. Now, that's a good idea. Thanks for reminding me to put it on the test.' They hate that.
I have 6 advisees this semester. (To give you an indication of the enrollment condition Paddington U is in, when I started - and for about 8 to 10 years after that - I would have about 15-20 advisees.) Half of my advisees have a D or are failing 2 or more classes. Maybe part of that could still be attributed to the pandemic or whatever, but.......that's not good.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 19, 2021, 08:03:10 PM
Yep. Or you could say, 'Hmm. Now, that's a good idea. Thanks for reminding me to put it on the test.' They hate that.
This belongs in a Sith Mind Tricks Thread.
I like it!
Student from last year in an online asynchronous class who was failing the course: "I think it's unfair that I have to learn in a format that isn't like a REAL classroom. I do better in a REAL class, not online."
Same student from last year who is now in one of my synchronous all-in-person classes, but hasn't shown up consistently: "Sorry I have not been showing up to class. Do you have any make-up assignments or extra credit, so I don't fail the class?"
Quote from: lightning on October 20, 2021, 09:17:51 AM
Student from last year in an online asynchronous class who was failing the course: "I think it's unfair that I have to learn in a format that isn't like a REAL classroom. I do better in a REAL class, not online."
Same student from last year who is now in one of my synchronous all-in-person classes, but hasn't shown up consistently: "Sorry I have not been showing up to class. Do you have any make-up assignments or extra credit, so I don't fail the class?"
Maybe mail them both back to him and ask for clarification? As in, "Ok, in what format DO you learn?"
Maybe not...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on October 20, 2021, 09:30:27 AM
Quote from: lightning on October 20, 2021, 09:17:51 AM
Student from last year in an online asynchronous class who was failing the course: "I think it's unfair that I have to learn in a format that isn't like a REAL classroom. I do better in a REAL class, not online."
Same student from last year who is now in one of my synchronous all-in-person classes, but hasn't shown up consistently: "Sorry I have not been showing up to class. Do you have any make-up assignments or extra credit, so I don't fail the class?"
Maybe mail them both back to him and ask for clarification? As in, "Ok, in what format DO you learn?"
Maybe not...
M.
Hybrid class!
Or, as a last resort if all else fails, old-fashioned mail correspondence course.
Quote from: onthefringe on October 19, 2021, 07:35:40 PM
Quote from: FishProf on October 19, 2021, 03:57:30 AM
Is THIS on the test?
fringehusband insists you can shut down this behavior for an entire semester by cackling and saying "well, it is NOW" the first time someone asks a question in that format.
I tried that once. The students roasted me in the evals for thinking I was being funny.
Quote from: apl68 on October 20, 2021, 10:14:19 AM
Quote from: mamselle on October 20, 2021, 09:30:27 AM
Quote from: lightning on October 20, 2021, 09:17:51 AM
Student from last year in an online asynchronous class who was failing the course: "I think it's unfair that I have to learn in a format that isn't like a REAL classroom. I do better in a REAL class, not online."
Same student from last year who is now in one of my synchronous all-in-person classes, but hasn't shown up consistently: "Sorry I have not been showing up to class. Do you have any make-up assignments or extra credit, so I don't fail the class?"
Maybe mail them both back to him and ask for clarification? As in, "Ok, in what format DO you learn?"
Maybe not...
M.
Hybrid class!
Or, as a last resort if all else fails, old-fashioned mail correspondence course.
I'm afraid to do either of what the both of you suggest because it might eventually entail letting him Zoom in--although thanks for raising the options.
However, that mail correspondence course sounds intriguing.
Yes, but (sorry to toss water on your parade) wasn't there a discussion awhile ago (Old forum, definitely, might have been Octo, who'd taught some, I think) that mail correspondence courses can't be used for college credit and there was some scandal about a school that was trying to do that, which was brought down with a 'THUMP' at one point?
Might have been about contact hours, or lecture time available, or something along those lines, but it was based on the difference between reading for oneself and having access to lectures, spoken responses, etc.
Too bad it can't be searched for now...but I'm sure I remember that conversation.
M.
Quote from: lightning on October 20, 2021, 09:17:51 AM
Student from last year in an online asynchronous class who was failing the course: "I think it's unfair that I have to learn in a format that isn't like a REAL classroom. I do better in a REAL class, not online."
Same student from last year who is now in one of my synchronous all-in-person classes, but hasn't shown up consistently: "Sorry I have not been showing up to class. Do you have any make-up assignments or extra credit, so I don't fail the class?"
What's sad is this might be the student "doing better" in person than online. Self-motivated, organized students do well in either format. Disorganized students who at least go to class do better in person. Students who don't bother to show up at all will do poorly no matter what the format.
Stu: I want to discuss my test with you, but your office hours don't work for me.
Me: OK, please send me a list of your available times and we'll find one that works.
Stu: Sends my list of times that *includes one of my office hours*.
Me: bangs head on desk, suggests Stu use the office hour time.
Quote from: Puget on October 22, 2021, 09:23:14 AM
Stu: I want to discuss my test with you, but your office hours don't work for me.
Me: OK, please send me a list of your available times and we'll find one that works.
Stu: Sends my list of times that *includes one of my office hours*.
Me: bangs head on desk, suggests Stu use the office hour time.
Student needs a meeting ASAP to discuss my entirely online class.
Student: "when are you available?"
Me: "use the link at the beginning of the syllabus to schedule a time"
Cue 3-4 back and forth emails clarifying 'syllabus' 'link' and 'schedule'
finally, he schedules a zoom meeting. In reply to the zoom meeting confirmation email, which says time, and the zoom link for the meeting: "where are me meeting?"
When we finally connect, he wants to know when I will start posting things to the course and why his grade is so lo when he hasn't failed anything (hint: he hasn't DONE anything)
I finally get him to understand that he has to take the syllabus quiz and get 100% before he can see anything else for the course. Once he does, he can see everything.
"How was I supposed to know that"?
Ahem. It is stated on
1) Class announcements on CMS five times.
2) on the syllabus itself
3) on the video that reviews the syllabus
4) at the syllabus quiz (which he took already)
Let's play a game. Guess who wants an extension on the December 18th due date....
Quote from: FishProf on October 22, 2021, 10:42:50 AM
Quote from: Puget on October 22, 2021, 09:23:14 AM
Stu: I want to discuss my test with you, but your office hours don't work for me.
Me: OK, please send me a list of your available times and we'll find one that works.
Stu: Sends my list of times that *includes one of my office hours*.
Me: bangs head on desk, suggests Stu use the office hour time.
Student needs a meeting ASAP to discuss my entirely online class.
Student: "when are you available?"
Me: "use the link at the beginning of the syllabus to schedule a time"
Cue 3-4 back and forth emails clarifying 'syllabus' 'link' and 'schedule'
finally, he schedules a zoom meeting. In reply to the zoom meeting confirmation email, which says time, and the zoom link for the meeting: "where are me meeting?"
When we finally connect, he wants to know when I will start posting things to the course and why his grade is so lo when he hasn't failed anything (hint: he hasn't DONE anything)
I finally get him to understand that he has to take the syllabus quiz and get 100% before he can see anything else for the course. Once he does, he can see everything.
"How was I supposed to know that"?
Ahem. It is stated on
1) Class announcements on CMS five times.
2) on the syllabus itself
3) on the video that reviews the syllabus
4) at the syllabus quiz (which he took already)
Let's play a game. Guess who wants an extension on the December 18th due date....
Your student has my student beat-- mine at least figured out how to use the link to schedule a slot without further assistance.
One the plus side, I got to send congratulatory messages to three students who scored above 100% with extra credit on the exam. I like sending those messages a lot more than the "I'm concerned about your progress in this course" messages.
Stu Dent waited after class to have a chat with me. She was very seriously puzzled as to why she is failing my college chemistry course. SHE HAS ONLY COMPLETED 7% OF THE ENTIRE COURSE!!!!!!!!!!! We are more than 2/3 of the way through the semester. She has completed 1 lab (out of 7 so far), 1 homework (out of 10 weekly assignments), 1 exam (out of 3), and 0 quizzes (out of 6). When I told her she is well past the point of no return and has zero hope of passing my course she looked at me like I had grown another head. She literally sat there and stared at me in uncomfortable silence for a full 60 seconds before I said I had to leave for another appointment.
Quote from: chemigal on October 25, 2021, 11:30:04 AM
Stu Dent waited after class to have a chat with me. She was very seriously puzzled as to why she is failing my college chemistry course. SHE HAS ONLY COMPLETED 7% OF THE ENTIRE COURSE!!!!!!!!!!! We are more than 2/3 of the way through the semester. She has completed 1 lab (out of 7 so far), 1 homework (out of 10 weekly assignments), 1 exam (out of 3), and 0 quizzes (out of 6). When I told her she is well past the point of no return and has zero hope of passing my course she looked at me like I had grown another head. She literally sat there and stared at me in uncomfortable silence for a full 60 seconds before I said I had to leave for another appointment.
Nine years after completing my last formal grad courses for my library degree, I continue to have nightmares about finding myself in this situation, on multiple courses, in college. It happened just last night.
And in real life I never missed a class or exam in four years of college, apart from the two weeks when I was on an international mission trip, with the school's knowledge and permission.
Mid-term open note essay exam.
Mean 57%, Range 13 - 80.5%
Did I mention this was Open Note?
Oddly, no individual question was particularly bad. Sometimes I'll have a stinker of a question that no one gets, but this time, there was no abysmal question, but also no one who hit on all cylinders.
The debrief on Wednesday will be interesting.
Today's quiz today.
Two students scored 1 out of 10 correct. On a multiple choice quiz.
Since we are still 100% online, I notice student learning is just not at the level it is when we are in the classroom. They really do bounce off each other in real life in such stronger ways that just staring at the Zoom screen and posting to discussion boards.
Quote from: Aster on October 25, 2021, 04:14:32 PM
Today's quiz today.
Two students scored 1 out of 10 correct. On a multiple choice quiz.
I feel ya' on this. A lot of my online students (about a third of the class on average out of three sections) have fallen off the face of the Earth, or are turning in things a week late (which results in a 70% deduction). The most recent lab has shown me that they cannot do Math. Period. Critical thinking? Hell no! Can they follow instructions? Hell no! Even though I give them a step-by-step tutorial? Hell no!
I had a question today about logarithms. All they have to do is enter a number and then push "log" (base 10) on the calculator. That's it! And someone still doesn't 'get it.'
I don't have the mental energy to deal with any of this.
Quote from: Aster on October 25, 2021, 04:14:32 PM
Today's quiz today.
Two students scored 1 out of 10 correct. On a multiple choice quiz.
How many choices per question and how many students in the class? This, this, this... could be what what one might expect! :-)
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 25, 2021, 08:22:43 PM
I had a question today about logarithms. All they have to do is enter a number and then push "log" (base 10) on the calculator. That's it! And someone still doesn't 'get it.'
It's the
ln button that confused everybody! :-)
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 25, 2021, 04:53:50 PM
Since we are still 100% online, I notice student learning is just not at the level it is when we are in the classroom. They really do bounce off each other in real life in such stronger ways that just staring at the Zoom screen and posting to discussion boards.
+1000
And they are so behind in their critical thinking, logic, etc skills when they come back to the in person classroom.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 25, 2021, 04:53:50 PM
Since we are still 100% online, I notice student learning is just not at the level it is when we are in the classroom. They really do bounce off each other in real life in such stronger ways that just staring at the Zoom screen and posting to discussion boards.
That lack of "bouncing off each other" opportunities is also why online professional "conferences" are turning out to be so much less satisfying and productive than face-to-face. At our latest online library "conference" we had a presentation on how to do better virtual presentations. Despite her best efforts, the presenter inadvertently demonstrated why virtual isn't really much of a substitute.
It might be the very different circumstances--scale, size of class, etc.--in which I'm teaching, but I find my private music students--all geeks or geeky-sweet children of geeks, or both--are doing fine with virtual instruction.
Only one of the 8 has asked if we might be doing in-person soon, but otherwise, they continue to grow in their work, and as I've mentioned before, the music theory class I'm teaching couldn't have happened in-person, given their schedules and different school locations, in any other way.
The online folk dance program I participate in has also now gone hybrid, and we have had both 20+ participants online and another 20 students in-person.
The only problems I've observed so far with hybrid otherwise is with a chapel service and a worship hour where the microphones aren't always made available to all speakers (so their voices 'bubble' in and out, making audibility hard) and cases where presenters don't put their chargers in: dependence on their battery alone seems to sap the vigor of the sound stream.
Both those are easily fixed, and usually are, once mentioned.
I've also attended three other online worship services (closest I get to classes, but the formats are very similar) in which good A-V prep and careful attention to listeners' needs have led to quite satisfactory participation as far as I'm concerned (and as a musician, I am picky about those issues, so I'm not just 'being nice.')
I didn't start using Zoom with any great expertise on my own (had a good bit of A-V work in other settings) and I agree it can be tiring, at times, but so is in-person teaching.
I'm actually looking at other options for things I can present or teach online that were not easily arranged for in the past. As an independent scholar, I want the work to be well-done and reliable--I also want to get it out there, and think exploring those options for their best capacities, rather than fussing about things that are hard, but can be fixed, might be more productive.
I've also pondered how I might teach other types of classes (like, say, the French I I've taught at one place, that gets about 15 students) and can see how it could work--I'd need to use breakout rooms for individual pronunciation work or create added challenges to spur students on, but that's not so much different than what I was heading towards when I started making dialogue slides in WordThread--and that school has someone who teaches French wholly online, with whom I considered consulting at one point, so that could be another way to go.
I don't mean to say I lack empathy with those who have much larger classes, etc., because I know that not all A-V support structures are created equal, and some can be doozies of inefficiency, mis-matched apps, etc., and it sounds like some departments are so flip-floppy that it must be awful to even know which way to jump.
So, I do get it, but I'm just wanting to point out that online and hybrid aren't all entirely bad, as it seems to me. For one thing, I save four hours at least in travel across town to teach in-person, and I can stay at home in peace and get more done, which is also happening, and for which I'm grateful.
<<ducks and runs...>>
M.
One Of My Students Insists On Writing Everything In Title Case. I Have Suggested Sentence Case And Even Other Students In Discussion Posts Have Suggested Her Writing Would Be More Readable If She Used Sentence Case. She Says She Is Well Aware And Continues.
She Just Wrote A Whole Paper. In Title Case. My Eyeballs Are Bleeding.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 28, 2021, 05:13:37 PM
She Just Wrote A Whole Paper. In Title Case. My Eyeballs Are Bleeding.
Wow, a multi-page title and no body text? Sounds easy to grade.
Had my first "What do I need to do to pass?" student of the semester come by office hours yesterday. This is a major course that students must earn a C in. I told Stu that if they earned 100% on everything for the rest of the semester, their grade would be 70.06% and that that wasn't realistic and they should talk to their advisor about the consequences of dropping the course now and focusing on the rest of their courses, or staying in to at least get a look at all the course content and trying again next semester, etc. Stu said, "You mean I can still earn a C, right?" I said, "Mathematically yes, realistically, no." Stu said, "I can do it!" Then didn't show up for yesterday afternoon's lab. **sigh**
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 29, 2021, 05:56:09 AM
Had my first "What do I need to do to pass?" student of the semester come by office hours yesterday. This is a major course that students must earn a C in. I told Stu that if they earned 100% on everything for the rest of the semester, their grade would be 70.06% and that that wasn't realistic and they should talk to their advisor about the consequences of dropping the course now and focusing on the rest of their courses, or staying in to at least get a look at all the course content and trying again next semester, etc. Stu said, "You mean I can still earn a C, right?" I said, "Mathematically yes, realistically, no." Stu said, "I can do it!" Then didn't show up for yesterday afternoon's lab. **sigh**
I'm pretty sure Stu couldn't do the math either.
I do an online lecture on logical fallacies that is in need of updating (When Bush the Younger is the President in your examples, it is time). I gave it to my experimental design class to watch and then they needed to come up with a NEW and CURRENT example for each of the fallacies. In the 'Correlation does not Equal Causation' slide, I refer to the real, but meaningless correlation between sunspot activity and the fashionable length of skirts. Like - REALLY obviously unrelated. Student wrote this:
"a) Original Example: "There is a correlation between sunspot activity and skirt length in America. They are not casual. Both fashion and sunspots follow a roughly 11 year cycle."
b) Updated Example: This example for causation and correlation should be updated because mentioning skirt length creates an uncomfortable atmosphere for the audience.
Instead, suggest the popular example of ice cream sales and shark attacks. There is a strong correlation between increasing ice cream sales and shark attacks at beaches, however these two variables do not cause one another to occur."
Shark attacks on people don't make people uncomfortable, but mentioning skirts does?
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 29, 2021, 05:56:09 AM
Had my first "What do I need to do to pass?" student of the semester come by office hours yesterday. This is a major course that students must earn a C in. I told Stu that if they earned 100% on everything for the rest of the semester, their grade would be 70.06% and that that wasn't realistic and they should talk to their advisor about the consequences of dropping the course now and focusing on the rest of their courses, or staying in to at least get a look at all the course content and trying again next semester, etc. Stu said, "You mean I can still earn a C, right?" I said, "Mathematically yes, realistically, no." Stu said, "I can do it!" Then didn't show up for yesterday afternoon's lab. **sigh**
I have one of these-- every time I or her advisor meets with her, she has a "solid plan to turn things around starting today". Then nothing changes. I had a final heart to heart with her last week in which we both agreed that if nothing had changed by the drop deadline on the 11th, she needs to drop. So far, nothing has changed. At least she isn't blaming anyone but herself for this.
Quote from: FishProf on October 29, 2021, 06:30:31 AM
I do an online lecture on logical fallacies that is in need of updating (When Bush the Younger is the President in your examples, it is time). I gave it to my experimental design class to watch and then they needed to come up with a NEW and CURRENT example for each of the fallacies. In the 'Correlation does not Equal Causation' slide, I refer to the real, but meaningless correlation between sunspot activity and the fashionable length of skirts. Like - REALLY obviously unrelated. Student wrote this:
"a) Original Example: "There is a correlation between sunspot activity and skirt length in America. They are not casual. Both fashion and sunspots follow a roughly 11 year cycle."
b) Updated Example: This example for causation and correlation should be updated because mentioning skirt length creates an uncomfortable atmosphere for the audience.
Instead, suggest the popular example of ice cream sales and shark attacks. There is a strong correlation between increasing ice cream sales and shark attacks at beaches, however these two variables do not cause one another to occur."
Shark attacks on people don't make people uncomfortable, but mentioning skirts does?
The "New Victorians" our society is producing clutch their pearls over virtually anything.
Quote from: Puget on October 29, 2021, 06:38:00 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 29, 2021, 05:56:09 AM
Had my first "What do I need to do to pass?" student of the semester come by office hours yesterday. This is a major course that students must earn a C in. I told Stu that if they earned 100% on everything for the rest of the semester, their grade would be 70.06% and that that wasn't realistic and they should talk to their advisor about the consequences of dropping the course now and focusing on the rest of their courses, or staying in to at least get a look at all the course content and trying again next semester, etc. Stu said, "You mean I can still earn a C, right?" I said, "Mathematically yes, realistically, no." Stu said, "I can do it!" Then didn't show up for yesterday afternoon's lab. **sigh**
I have one of these-- every time I or her advisor meets with her, she has a "solid plan to turn things around starting today". Then nothing changes. I had a final heart to heart with her last week in which we both agreed that if nothing had changed by the drop deadline on the 11th, she needs to drop. So far, nothing has changed. At least she isn't blaming anyone but herself for this.
Thankfully this student also isn't blaming anyone but himself, but I do worry that students like this, who seem to be living in their own fantasy land where things always turn out well. Some I see again in a future semester and they've turned things around, focus on their work, and pass. Some just drift away never to be seen again. I think this student just lacks the maturity to be at university right now.
Not really related to the topic at hand, but I saw this on a Scientific Sampler pinterest board the other day and truly loved it.
Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there.
Quote from: Istiblennius on October 29, 2021, 08:18:23 AM
Not really related to the topic at hand, but I saw this on a Scientific Sampler pinterest board the other day and truly loved it.
Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there.
I've seen that one. I quite like it.
Teaching "correlation does not imply causation" has led some of my students to conclude that things that cause something ARE NOT correlated with it.
Oddly, telling them it is a non-reciprocal syllogism doesn't seem to help.
Quote from: FishProf on October 30, 2021, 06:32:00 AM
Teaching "correlation does not imply causation" has led some of my students to conclude that things that cause something ARE NOT correlated with it.
Oddly, telling them it is a non-reciprocal syllogism doesn't seem to help.
It apparently also causes my students to say that you can't draw causal conclusions from *an experimental design* even when they correctly tell me they should randomly assign participants to conditions. A large percentage of them just got that one wrong on my exam. I'm beginning to think we've gone a bit overboard in getting students to be skeptical of research findings-- some skepticism is good of course, but you don't want them to start thinking things like that RCTs don't demonstrate causal effects. . .
I spent a LOT of my time collecting, inventorying, and organizing [basket making supplies] for your class [basketweaving project]. You had over 150 [types of supplies]. The idea was that each team would use a DIFFERENT set of [supplies]. Why on earth didn't you USE THEM?
TAs, this is YOUR fault. You were tasked with distributing the supplies.
Congratulations TAs, that means you are going to sit through some even more repetitive than usual student presentations on "here is my [basket]".
Quote from: Puget on October 30, 2021, 07:28:18 AM
Quote from: FishProf on October 30, 2021, 06:32:00 AM
Teaching "correlation does not imply causation" has led some of my students to conclude that things that cause something ARE NOT correlated with it.
Oddly, telling them it is a non-reciprocal syllogism doesn't seem to help.
It apparently also causes my students to say that you can't draw causal conclusions from *an experimental design* even when they correctly tell me they should randomly assign participants to conditions. A large percentage of them just got that one wrong on my exam. I'm beginning to think we've gone a bit overboard in getting students to be skeptical of research findings-- some skepticism is good of course, but you don't want them to start thinking things like that RCTs don't demonstrate causal effects. . .
You should send them this article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/) and this one (https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094) and confuse them even more!
How can students manage to write nothing at all in response to an essay question that is open book/note? I guess it's better than plagiarizing from an online source.
Read your email. Read your email. Read your email. You know those weekly emails I send around, with all the information about what's coming up, deadlines to remember, details about class meetings?
It really, really grinds my gears every time this happens:
Me, on Friday: 'Dear class, happy Friday! Remember X for next week.'
Stu, on Monday: 'Hey there, is X this week?'
It's not quite late enough in the semester to respond to queries with 'See Friday email'. But it is late enough for me to start being quite curt:
'Dear Stu, Yes. See Friday email. Regards, Dr. Ergative'
Most of the time I sign my emails with my first name. You only get 'Dr Ergative' in the signature if you really pissed me off.
Quote from: ergative on November 11, 2021, 02:47:01 AM
It's not quite late enough in the semester to respond to queries with 'See Friday email'.
Why? I start those responses in week 1.
I had to add the phrase "teach your assigned sections in person in the assigned classroom" to the TA contract.
Why?
I had a grad student ask if they could record their first discussion section and post the recording for their other sections.
No.
Just no.
Quote from: FishProf on November 11, 2021, 05:14:16 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 11, 2021, 02:47:01 AM
It's not quite late enough in the semester to respond to queries with 'See Friday email'.
Why? I start those responses in week 1.
Because they are baby, and underneath my curmudgeonly exterior I am made of marshmallow fluff.
Quote from: ergative on November 11, 2021, 07:59:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 11, 2021, 05:14:16 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 11, 2021, 02:47:01 AM
It's not quite late enough in the semester to respond to queries with 'See Friday email'.
Why? I start those responses in week 1.
Because they are baby, and underneath my curmudgeonly exterior I am made of marshmallow fluff.
You made me LOL. And AWWW.
The fourth instance of plagiarism from Stu in just two weeks reminded me of these lines from
Invictus:
Quote
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Two-thirds of the way through the semester, a student in *developmental* psychology wants to know if she has to learn the ages at which can do different things for the second exam. I'm honestly rather confused about how the answer to that could not be self-evident.
Piaget would say s/he hasn't gotten into the hypothetical-deductive thinking phase, I suspect....
M.
I cannot find a polite/professional way to say to a student: you need to create a time machine so that you can go back to the beginning of the semester and put sufficient time into this class so that you master the material in weeks 1-4. Without that background, there is no way for you to even understand what we are talking about now, because you do not have the basic vocabulary.
I have a student who's 'not in the right headspace' to do the assignment that is due tomorrow. Fortunately I have 0 control over the late submission penalty or extension policy, so I don't even have to think about his headspace. Policy is policy.
Quote from: arcturus on November 16, 2021, 11:38:49 AM
I cannot find a polite/professional way to say to a student: you need to create a time machine so that you can go back to the beginning of the semester and put sufficient time into this class so that you master the material in weeks 1-4. Without that background, there is no way for you to even understand what we are talking about now, because you do not have the basic vocabulary.
Let me know the magic words. I have at least three students who need to hear this.
Quote from: ergative on November 16, 2021, 11:44:34 AM
I have a student who's 'not in the right headspace' to do the assignment that is due tomorrow. Fortunately I have 0 control over the late submission penalty or extension policy, so I don't even have to think about his headspace. Policy is policy.
Hmm, either the assignment is so minor it won't matter if they do a not-that-great of a job OR it is a major assignment and they are so far behind they probably won't finish. I'd tell them "Look at the late penalty and decide if it's best to just turn in what you have".
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 16, 2021, 01:09:07 PM
Quote from: ergative on November 16, 2021, 11:44:34 AM
I have a student who's 'not in the right headspace' to do the assignment that is due tomorrow. Fortunately I have 0 control over the late submission penalty or extension policy, so I don't even have to think about his headspace. Policy is policy.
Hmm, either the assignment is so minor it won't matter if they do a not-that-great of a job OR it is a major assignment and they are so far behind they probably won't finish. I'd tell them "Look at the late penalty and decide if it's best to just turn in what you have".
Fortunately it is the former--only 10%. He can eat a 0 and still pass easily. Very low-stress, at least on my end.
<<This is related to above, but different students.>>
Dear slacker: it does not surprise me that <your computer crashed> <your best friend is sick> <you are in the hospital> as it was evident that you were not working on the final project throughout the semester, as was recommended/required. Indeed, your request (demand) for an extension was entirely predictable. However, course policies are clear and apply to everyone. While I am sorry to hear about your challenges, I will not arbitrarily give you more time to complete the project, particularly in consideration of fairness to the other 100+ students in this class who have completed the work on time (or in advance).
These papers are terrible! Awful! I've had a temporary admin position for the past two years so I was only teaching one class per semester. And I almost never had first-year students the past two years. These papers in a class of almost all first-year students are awful! There paragraphs are multiple pages long. They have no thesis. The students still have their final project in this class. I'm thinking of just making the final assignment be a re-write of this paper. But what about the few who received an A (or a B)? Should I ask them to re-write the paper too? There doesn't seem to be a point in that. Should I give them a separate assignment? That doesn't seem to be right either. Should I just say that those who did poorly (below a....C?) can re-write this paper and everyone else just has to finish the semester and they don't have a final assignment? Or should I just keep plowing through the semester as planned? Ugh. They're terrible!
You could say, "Everyone over a C, email me."
Then you email them back and tell them they're home free, but not to tell anyone else...
M.
I'm old enough to remember a few college courses where there would be one big test during finals week and that was most of your grade for the semester (with no freebie points for attendance throughout the semester because attendance was not mandatory).
I'm not allowed to do all-or-nothing, today, of course.
However, with all these students constantly badgering me for multiple extensions after extensions on assignments and rescheduling of tests for tests originally scheduled to be spread out throughout the semester, I'm tempted to tell them that they all get an extension on everything until the end of the semester, and they can take all their tests at the end of the semester. There is just one big deadline at the end of the course where you have to turn everything in and all the tests are taken at once at the end of the semester. I mean, that is what they want, isn't it? When they ask for deferment after deferment, eventually it all comes due at the same time at the end of the semester.
I actually did do that once, when too many students kept asking me to move deadlines later into the semester. Students were pissed, but I sure got my point across.
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea because it gives them time to sit down and revise with you available for questions. (although you will get a few "but the file is at home on my Mom's computer!" complaints).
I always require a revision in my writing classes. Students that have already done well choose a new audience and update the original paper so that it works for that new audience (no word counts, but citations if relevant). I like them to see that a piece of writing, once "good enough," can still benefit from revision--and some of the revisions have been fabulously creative: obituaries (not always of people), journalistic writing, brochures or museum captions, a rap, a sonnet, etc. Mine have to include a paragraph explaining the new audience, and detailing why the revision works better for that audience. So if you want the strong students still to do something, this could be a fun option.
AR.
I like Fishprof's idea. I know that some students have already made plans to go home before when our final would be, since we aren't meeting during finals week, they just have to submit their final assignment to the CMS. But I could be available the last week of class. Or cancel the last week of class and have more office hours for conferences. (Optional conferences? Required conferences?)
AvidReader, I've done the same in a few writing classes I've taught. (This class is an English class that's Gen Ed and can count in the major. But I have ZERO English majors in this class, so I'm not sure how much I should care that they can't write an essay. :) ) It does get them thinking about the needs of different audiences I can't decide whether I want the strong students do have a final assignment as well, or just say, "Hurray! You don't have a last assignment in this class!"
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 03:24:52 AM
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea. It gives everyone the same option. As long as it's clear that the final exam time is the only chance to rewrite. You could also say it's a "no penalty rewrite". As in, their grade either stays the same or goes up. If their revised version is somehow worse than the original (you know you've seen it happen), then their final grade doesn't go down.
I bet you'll have a lot of students happy to take their current grade and walk away.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2021, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 03:24:52 AM
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea. It gives everyone the same option. As long as it's clear that the final exam time is the only chance to rewrite. You could also say it's a "no penalty rewrite". As in, their grade either stays the same or goes up. If their revised version is somehow worse than the original (you know you've seen it happen), then their final grade doesn't go down.
I bet you'll have a lot of students happy to take their current grade and walk away.
Yes, I'm hoping that some will just accept their current grade. There's no final exam time for this class. I mean, there would be, but I said repeatedly throughout the semester - as people asked b/c they were making transportation arrangements - that we would not be meeting during exam week. So students could have until the final is due to rewrite their paper. Or not. :)
It is worth thinking about your grading load when determining how long they have to do rewrites.
Rewriting is a great idea for student education, but I would never give it as an option. Far too much work for me.
I do explicitly give the option for students to do drafts and in some classes I don't give a policy, but will comment on drafts if students ask.
I find that not many students give me drafts, so it does not involve much extra work.
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 07:08:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2021, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 03:24:52 AM
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea. It gives everyone the same option. As long as it's clear that the final exam time is the only chance to rewrite. You could also say it's a "no penalty rewrite". As in, their grade either stays the same or goes up. If their revised version is somehow worse than the original (you know you've seen it happen), then their final grade doesn't go down.
I bet you'll have a lot of students happy to take their current grade and walk away.
Yes, I'm hoping that some will just accept their current grade. There's no final exam time for this class. I mean, there would be, but I said repeatedly throughout the semester - as people asked b/c they were making transportation arrangements - that we would not be meeting during exam week. So students could have until the final is due to rewrite their paper. Or not. :)
If I did this, probably most students wouldn't have anything to gain from revising. We don't have + or - grades though so your mileage may vary. By the end of the semester, however, grades often get pretty stuck. If a student is averaging an 85 and they get an 84 on the draft which is worth 20 percent or something, they aren't going to be able to move that into B+ territory unless the revision moves the paper into the mid to high 90s, which would be pretty unusual.
You probably do have more to gain from this if you got a particularly crummy grade, so this might work quite well for your purposes.
Is it just me, or have all of your students apparently forgotten how to "student"? The number of class absences is far higher than in previous years. A few are Covid related but a lot of reasons are pretty vague.
Quote from: Caracal on November 17, 2021, 07:20:29 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 07:08:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2021, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 03:24:52 AM
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea. It gives everyone the same option. As long as it's clear that the final exam time is the only chance to rewrite. You could also say it's a "no penalty rewrite". As in, their grade either stays the same or goes up. If their revised version is somehow worse than the original (you know you've seen it happen), then their final grade doesn't go down.
I bet you'll have a lot of students happy to take their current grade and walk away.
Yes, I'm hoping that some will just accept their current grade. There's no final exam time for this class. I mean, there would be, but I said repeatedly throughout the semester - as people asked b/c they were making transportation arrangements - that we would not be meeting during exam week. So students could have until the final is due to rewrite their paper. Or not. :)
If I did this, probably most students wouldn't have anything to gain from revising. We don't have + or - grades though so your mileage may vary. By the end of the semester, however, grades often get pretty stuck. If a student is averaging an 85 and they get an 84 on the draft which is worth 20 percent or something, they aren't going to be able to move that into B+ territory unless the revision moves the paper into the mid to high 90s, which would be pretty unusual.
You probably do have more to gain from this if you got a particularly crummy grade, so this might work quite well for your purposes.
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
Quote from: Caracal on November 17, 2021, 07:20:29 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 07:08:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 17, 2021, 06:59:52 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 03:24:52 AM
I did this a few times. Students came to the 3-hour final. I gave them their rough drafts graded, as if they were final papers, and what grade that gave them in the course. They could choose to
1) Use the final to revise; or
2) Take the grade they had and go.
Some variation of that might work for you.
I like FishProf's idea. It gives everyone the same option. As long as it's clear that the final exam time is the only chance to rewrite. You could also say it's a "no penalty rewrite". As in, their grade either stays the same or goes up. If their revised version is somehow worse than the original (you know you've seen it happen), then their final grade doesn't go down.
I bet you'll have a lot of students happy to take their current grade and walk away.
Yes, I'm hoping that some will just accept their current grade. There's no final exam time for this class. I mean, there would be, but I said repeatedly throughout the semester - as people asked b/c they were making transportation arrangements - that we would not be meeting during exam week. So students could have until the final is due to rewrite their paper. Or not. :)
If I did this, probably most students wouldn't have anything to gain from revising. We don't have + or - grades though so your mileage may vary. By the end of the semester, however, grades often get pretty stuck. If a student is averaging an 85 and they get an 84 on the draft which is worth 20 percent or something, they aren't going to be able to move that into B+ territory unless the revision moves the paper into the mid to high 90s, which would be pretty unusual.
You probably do have more to gain from this if you got a particularly crummy grade, so this might work quite well for your purposes.
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
I'd give EVERYONE the option. Do you really want to get a grade challenge based on "But if I got 100% on my rewritten paper I could have earned a [fill in higher grade]! Dr. [whoever] is biased and mean and unfair." The student would win, even if you know that while it's mathematically possible for them to earn a higher grade that they realistically won't.
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
I've never understood the logic of this (so please explain it me). Why are the students who are doing well less deserving of the opportunity to improve?
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
I've never understood the logic of this (so please explain it me). Why are the students who are doing well less deserving of the opportunity to improve?
It is very tricky giving opportunities to some students and not others.
I can understand it in terms of time management. Students who do badly generally don't do much to improve their grades, while students who do well still want to improve them. So these offers generally involve little extra work for the instructor.
It can also be a lot more work explaining to a student how to get their paper from a B+ to an A than it is explaining how to get a C paper to a B.
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
I've never understood the logic of this (so please explain it me). Why are the students who are doing well less deserving of the opportunity to improve?
This. Plus pragmatically my whiniest students are generally B+ students who want an A (not an A-, an A)
I just finished grading a major exam in one of the first classes where our students have returned to campus and enrolled in "regular" classes. For most of the past year, our institution has been mostly closed and/or diverted into online instruction only.
Only 2 students earned passing marks on the latest exam. And both of those students just barely passed.
This is the same basic exam that I've been delivering for over a decade. Same instruction, also. There is no institutional reason why so few students performed adequately on this exam. There should have been a lot more passing scores.
Quote from: FishProf on November 17, 2021, 09:43:47 AM
Quote from: paddington_bear on November 17, 2021, 08:43:48 AM
I don't think I'd let students who have a B- or higher in the class have the re-write option -- regardless of the grade they got on their paper -- because it probably wouldn't be of significant help. But I think that a student who has a C or lower in the class AND who received a C or lower on their paper, could potentially improve their class grade by rewriting their paper. I have to give this more thought.
I've never understood the logic of this (so please explain it me). Why are the students who are doing well less deserving of the opportunity to improve?
Desire is understandable. If the lower performers get an extra chance, the higher performers need an extra chance to maintain distance. Allowing retakes, do-overs, improvement opportunities, and so on, just fuels the arms race.
Therefore, stop the arms race!
LOL that's one way of looking at it. Not my way. I'd allow rewrites if I had the time to look at them. Students learn from the process.
Quote from: downer on November 17, 2021, 03:28:11 PM
LOL that's one way of looking at it. Not my way. I'd allow rewrites if I had the time to look at them. Students learn from the process.
Absolutely! The trick is knowing when to stop.
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2021, 02:54:51 PM
Desire is understandable. If the lower performers get an extra chance, the higher performers need an extra chance to maintain distance. Allowing retakes, do-overs, improvement opportunities, and so on, just fuels the arms race.
Therefore, stop the arms race!
I'd be leery of any opportunity that allows the lower performing a chance to surpass the higher performing by dint of extra opportunity.
If Timmy earns a C and Stacy gets a B-, it seems grossly unfair that Timmy gets to rewrite and earn a B while Stacy just has to live with her mediocrity.
In my experience, the few who do rewrite isn't much of an additional burden, but SPADFY.
I allow rewrites on essays. Essays have to demonstrate that they have been revised and not just "touched up". I use two computers to grade these so that I can compare the original essays with the revised ones.
I would allow rewrites for all, but limit how much they can improve. I might say rewrite for a possible improvement of 1 full grade (eg. from C+ to B+ max). With this, most of the A- kids will skip it. This is also a way of rewarding those who put in a good effort the first time.
I also might include a calculation of how this potential change would impact the overall grade, if I really wanted to cut down on the number of submissions. Students for whom the course grade would not change then are even more likely to skip it at that point.
Quote from: Anon1787 on September 22, 2021, 04:53:09 PM
Five weeks into the semester and less than 2 hours before the exam, a student (who claims economic hardship) informs me that Stu does not have the textbook. I'm not a wizard who can waive a magic wand or Dr. Evil with many minions at my beck and call to provide you with the textbook on such short notice (even if you happen to be a speed reader).
You rang?
I also don't provide the text on short notice, or any notice, but my institution does usually have a copy of the text in the library. However, I had a student one term that refused to buy our in-house, inexpensive lab packet.
Nope. Nope, nope, nope. Not gonna do it.
Attendance points? At the graduate level. Not gonna happen. I don't assign attendance points in my undergrad classes, and I'm certainly not going to assign them here. Students should attend class because they want to learn this material, as it is related to their professional goals. Students earn points in my classes for demonstrating competency on assignments related to the course objectives.
I am required to have an attendance policy, so I have one. There is no requirement for me to assign points because students sat in chairs in the room where I was talking. No.
Quote from: FishProf on November 18, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2021, 02:54:51 PM
Desire is understandable. If the lower performers get an extra chance, the higher performers need an extra chance to maintain distance. Allowing retakes, do-overs, improvement opportunities, and so on, just fuels the arms race.
Therefore, stop the arms race!
I'd be leery of any opportunity that allows the lower performing a chance to surpass the higher performing by dint of extra opportunity.
If Timmy earns a C and Stacy gets a B-, it seems grossly unfair that Timmy gets to rewrite and earn a B while Stacy just has to live with her mediocrity.
In my experience, the few who do rewrite isn't much of an additional burden, but SPADFY.
This is getting us back to our discussion of test corrections for partial credit back. This situation is why I put a cap on the grade that could be earned by corrections when I was allowed to do this. E.g., if you got less than a 70, you could earn back credit
up to a 70. Applied here, that principle could be something like 'If you earn under a C+, you can rewrite to earn credit
up to a C+.'
Then Timmy can bump up his grade, but Stacey stays mediocrely ahead of him.
Quote from: ergative on November 18, 2021, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: FishProf on November 18, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2021, 02:54:51 PM
Desire is understandable. If the lower performers get an extra chance, the higher performers need an extra chance to maintain distance. Allowing retakes, do-overs, improvement opportunities, and so on, just fuels the arms race.
Therefore, stop the arms race!
I'd be leery of any opportunity that allows the lower performing a chance to surpass the higher performing by dint of extra opportunity.
If Timmy earns a C and Stacy gets a B-, it seems grossly unfair that Timmy gets to rewrite and earn a B while Stacy just has to live with her mediocrity.
In my experience, the few who do rewrite isn't much of an additional burden, but SPADFY.
This is getting us back to our discussion of test corrections for partial credit back. This situation is why I put a cap on the grade that could be earned by corrections when I was allowed to do this. E.g., if you got less than a 70, you could earn back credit up to a 70. Applied here, that principle could be something like 'If you earn under a C+, you can rewrite to earn credit up to a C+.'
Then Timmy can bump up his grade, but Stacey stays mediocrely ahead of him.
I'm sort of confused. Does "up to" refer to the
next letter grade? I would take that to mean everyone could in principle rewrite for an increase of exactly
one letter grade. Otherwise, everyone with less than an A+ could presumably correct up to an A+.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 19, 2021, 05:41:52 AM
Quote from: ergative on November 18, 2021, 11:01:39 PM
Quote from: FishProf on November 18, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: dismalist on November 17, 2021, 02:54:51 PM
Desire is understandable. If the lower performers get an extra chance, the higher performers need an extra chance to maintain distance. Allowing retakes, do-overs, improvement opportunities, and so on, just fuels the arms race.
Therefore, stop the arms race!
I'd be leery of any opportunity that allows the lower performing a chance to surpass the higher performing by dint of extra opportunity.
If Timmy earns a C and Stacy gets a B-, it seems grossly unfair that Timmy gets to rewrite and earn a B while Stacy just has to live with her mediocrity.
In my experience, the few who do rewrite isn't much of an additional burden, but SPADFY.
This is getting us back to our discussion of test corrections for partial credit back. This situation is why I put a cap on the grade that could be earned by corrections when I was allowed to do this. E.g., if you got less than a 70, you could earn back credit up to a 70. Applied here, that principle could be something like 'If you earn under a C+, you can rewrite to earn credit up to a C+.'
Then Timmy can bump up his grade, but Stacey stays mediocrely ahead of him.
I'm sort of confused. Does "up to" refer to the next letter grade? I would take that to mean everyone could in principle rewrite for an increase of exactly one letter grade. Otherwise, everyone with less than an A+ could presumably correct up to an A+.
No, sorry, the 'up to' refers to an absolute boundary, not a relative boundary . So the idea is that no one can rewrite for more than a C+. C+ is the absolute hard line and it applies to everyone equally--Timmy and Stacey both. If a student earned less than a C+ they can rewrite for a higher grade, but that higher grade won't go above a C+. So it's worth Timmy's time to rewrite, but it's not worth Stacey's time to rewrite, because her grade won't go above that original B-.
And if Hippolyta earned exactly a C+, then Timmy might catch up to her, but he'll have to do a rewrite to get there, while she's done with the assignment the first time.
Quote from: ergative on November 19, 2021, 06:14:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 19, 2021, 05:41:52 AM
I'm sort of confused. Does "up to" refer to the next letter grade? I would take that to mean everyone could in principle rewrite for an increase of exactly one letter grade. Otherwise, everyone with less than an A+ could presumably correct up to an A+.
No, sorry, the 'up to' refers to an absolute boundary, not a relative boundary . So the idea is that no one can rewrite for more than a C+. C+ is the absolute hard line and it applies to everyone equally--Timmy and Stacey both. If a student earned less than a C+ they can rewrite for a higher grade, but that higher grade won't go above a C+. So it's worth Timmy's time to rewrite, but it's not worth Stacey's time to rewrite, because her grade won't go above that original B-.
And if Hippolyta earned exactly a C+, then Timmy might catch up to her, but he'll have to do a rewrite to get there, while she's done with the assignment the first time.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm kind of curious; how do you determine the boundary for a particular assignment? Is there some non-arbitrary process (such as "the 75th percentile") or something like that?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on November 18, 2021, 05:53:24 PM
Nope. Nope, nope, nope. Not gonna do it.
Attendance points? At the graduate level. Not gonna happen. I don't assign attendance points in my undergrad classes, and I'm certainly not going to assign them here. Students should attend class because they want to learn this material, as it is related to their professional goals. Students earn points in my classes for demonstrating competency on assignments related to the course objectives.
I am required to have an attendance policy, so I have one. There is no requirement for me to assign points because students sat in chairs in the room where I was talking. No.
Ugh. I inherited a graduate course that has "participation points", which are basically for attendance. My thought is that if someone is present, but so disengaged that they are not participating, then they should leave. I agree that graduate courses should be graded on demonstrating skills, not just for showing up.
We had a required grad seminar where there were participation points, but it had to do with doing what Sewall called a "commonplace," (summarizing a reading, giving topic headings and a precis of each section, and then leading a short discussion on it)--sort of a mini-lecture, as it were, with each person doing that once in the semester...I think a similar format is used in some journal clubs.
They were assigned in advance, and you could flunk them, too. We had one guy come in who barely understood the reading enough to summarize it, just kept quoting parts of it in a monotone, and couldn't lead the discussion at all.
He disappeared the next term.
M.
Note to future students: If your professor contacts you about possible plagiarism in your work, with an option to resubmit without penalty, don't blow them off with a reply that states that you will not revise your work because the item in question is "from Google." That pretty much guarantees that the professor will be motivated enough to go through with the full academic misconduct reporting process, even though it is super annoying and time consuming.
Quote from: arcturus on November 19, 2021, 12:54:19 PM
Note to future students: If your professor contacts you about possible plagiarism in your work, with an option to resubmit without penalty, don't blow them off with a reply that states that you will not revise your work because the item in question is "from Google." That pretty much guarantees that the professor will be motivated enough to go through with the full academic misconduct reporting process, even though it is super annoying and time consuming.
This sounds like a student who is totally clueless about what plagiarism is. (This is NOT to imply that one or several instructors haven't explained it ad nauseum.) It almost sounds Stu thinks like "from Google" is like "from God" and quoting from
the definitive source is basically just like stating the definition.
Stu who was reported for two instances of plagiarism has submitted yet another assignment at least half of which is clearly plagiarized.
Stu must be a firm believer of "third time's a charm".
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 19, 2021, 01:15:02 PM
Stu who was reported for two instances of plagiarism has submitted yet another assignment at least half of which is clearly plagiarized.
Stu must be a firm believer of "third time's a charm".
I have someone now who has cheated on 7 assignments, is ghosting the AI process and skipping class, but continues to religiously turn in cheated assignments. WTF?
Quote from: kiana on November 19, 2021, 02:27:29 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 19, 2021, 01:15:02 PM
Stu who was reported for two instances of plagiarism has submitted yet another assignment at least half of which is clearly plagiarized.
Stu must be a firm believer of "third time's a charm".
I have someone now who has cheated on 7 assignments, is ghosting the AI process and skipping class, but continues to religiously turn in cheated assignments. WTF?
This is "a feature, not a bug" of us. The method is the easiest the student can employ to get some positive chance to graduate. Graduation is a signal.
Actually, this thread and the "Student favorite e-mails" thread are evidence.
Quote from: dismalist on November 19, 2021, 02:50:50 PM
Quote from: kiana on November 19, 2021, 02:27:29 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 19, 2021, 01:15:02 PM
Stu who was reported for two instances of plagiarism has submitted yet another assignment at least half of which is clearly plagiarized.
Stu must be a firm believer of "third time's a charm".
I have someone now who has cheated on 7 assignments, is ghosting the AI process and skipping class, but continues to religiously turn in cheated assignments. WTF?
This is "a feature, not a bug" of us. The method is the easiest the student can employ to get some positive chance to graduate.
I can't see how this could actually be true. Obviously plagiarizing is easier than doing a good job on an assignment, but it isn't really that much easier than doing a bad job. It also involves much higher risk of failing classes, getting thrown out of school, and dealing with the process involved. I suppose more sophisticated versions of cheating can be driven by calculations about the easiest means to an end, but mostly I think I think its about anxiety and panic.
Quote from: Caracal on November 20, 2021, 10:41:28 AM
I can't see how this could actually be true. Obviously plagiarizing is easier than doing a good job on an assignment, but it isn't really that much easier than doing a bad job. It also involves much higher risk of failing classes, getting thrown out of school, and dealing with the process involved. I suppose more sophisticated versions of cheating can be driven by calculations about the easiest means to an end, but mostly I think I think its about anxiety and panic.
Based on classroom behavior (before they started skipping all the classes to avoid me) I think that this student went to a high school where most assignments were graded on completion. When I would circulate around the classroom, they would be 3 pages ahead of everyone else, have written *something* on every question, but it would usually be taking all the numbers they could see and doing a random computation.
I also am not sure of their command of English. They appear ok for casual communication, but although they do submit the notetaking guides for the video lessons, fill-in-the-blank vocabulary questions usually have some random number or word that the teacher has written on the board that has no relationship to the question.
It is a pretty sad situation honestly.
I'm so very tired of the same students asking the same questions.
Will there be a study guide?
Do we have a final exam?
When is the final exam?
All of these questions are answered in the syllabus, but we know that nobody ever reads it.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 21, 2021, 08:30:10 AM
I'm so very tired of the same students asking the same questions.
Will there be a study guide?
Do we have a final exam?
When is the final exam?
All of these questions are answered in the syllabus, but we know that nobody ever reads it.
I do think it's helpful to have a "here is what the rest of the semester looks like" meeting a few weeks before the end of the term. Students are overwhelmed and stressed (for variety of reasons), and I'm not sure it's helpful to just point them to the syllabus. Spending 15 min in class explaining the final due dates for assignments, date and procedure of the final exam, procedure for Dead Week if applicable. Here, there's no new material the week before exams, and I do explain how and when we'll be studying. Such a meeting does wonders for their focus in my class, and we can usually proceed through the last weeks with an eye towards the end of the term.
For my classroom classes I generally start each class with a quick review of where we are and where we are going, what work is coming up.
For my online classes I have a week by week guide in addition to the syllabus. Basically it is a user-friendly guide that a syllabus should be, leaving out all the policies and boilerplate bullshit.
These do seem to reduce the number of stupid questions I get in email.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 22, 2021, 06:02:43 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 21, 2021, 08:30:10 AM
I'm so very tired of the same students asking the same questions.
Will there be a study guide?
Do we have a final exam?
When is the final exam?
All of these questions are answered in the syllabus, but we know that nobody ever reads it.
Students are overwhelmed and stressed (for variety of reasons), and I'm not sure it's helpful to just point them to the syllabus.
And what happens when said students graduate and are overwhelmed and stressed in the workplace or unfamiliar with a workplace rule that is stated clearly in the accessible employee handbook?
Nothing wrong with reviewing due dates in class. Otherwise, simply refer students to relevant pages of syllabus when they ask questions addressed in syllabus.
Quote from: RatGuy on November 22, 2021, 06:02:43 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 21, 2021, 08:30:10 AM
I'm so very tired of the same students asking the same questions.
Will there be a study guide?
Do we have a final exam?
When is the final exam?
All of these questions are answered in the syllabus, but we know that nobody ever reads it.
I do think it's helpful to have a "here is what the rest of the semester looks like" meeting a few weeks before the end of the term. Students are overwhelmed and stressed (for variety of reasons), and I'm not sure it's helpful to just point them to the syllabus. Spending 15 min in class explaining the final due dates for assignments, date and procedure of the final exam, procedure for Dead Week if applicable. Here, there's no new material the week before exams, and I do explain how and when we'll be studying. Such a meeting does wonders for their focus in my class, and we can usually proceed through the last weeks with an eye towards the end of the term.
This is for a 100% online course and I have announcements at least twice a week, but somehow students miss them.
Miss the announcements? They are probably choosing to ignore the announcements.
A student who will probably fail my class has asked to postpone the appointment he made to make up a quiz (he was "sick" when the quiz was given). His reason? "Something came up." He is actually the third student to cancel or not show up for a scheduled meeting today. I could have worked from home for another hour . . .
My head banging today comes not from the students but from the registrar's office. We start early registration for spring right after Thanksgiving. Spurred by a student email this morning that suggested the prerequisites for my spring seminar might not be clear in the course registration system (which was new as of last semester), I checked and discovered that the prerequisites were entirely missing!
And mine wasn't the only one in the department-- at least 4 other courses were also missing theirs. After a bunch of back and forth with the registrar's office, the staff member concluded that they were missing for "unknowable reasons". Not just unknown mind you (which might imply they should figure out what went wrong), but unknowable, one of the great mysteries of the universe. But not the worry she said, she would fix them now. Which is great and all, but if I hadn't noticed registration would have opened with these errors still there, and who knows how many there are for other departments?
This all could have been prevented if they had (a) checked the prerequisites in the new system against those listed in the old system/course descriptions, and/or (b) alerted faculty to check their course listing before the schedule was posted for students. But they did neither of these things. ARRRGG! NOT how I intended to spend my morning.
Quote from: filologos on November 22, 2021, 09:57:48 AM
A student who will probably fail my class has asked to postpone the appointment he made to make up a quiz (he was "sick" when the quiz was given). His reason? "Something came up." He is actually the third student to cancel or not show up for a scheduled meeting today. I could have worked from home for another hour . . .
"Something" = I still have not prepared for the quiz
Our registrar/Enrollment management division "updated" the software for catalogs and, in doing so, 'wiped a bunch of prerequisites that had gone through governance from the system. We protested but were told "the catalog is the official record".
I had to walk with last year's print catalog (the one they keep trying to retire) and show them what was required last year. Only then did the Registrar "get" the problem and promise to fix it. When I asked when, she said" after the semester ends (i.e. AFTER registration).
I told all the department chairs and we sent out a list of prerequisites and told our majors that, if they didn't have the prereqs by Jan 15, they would be dropped. We'll see what happens.
I am sure this was not Puget's intention, but "unknowable reasons" is now my go-to excuse for everything.
Why didn't I follow that procedure? Unknowable reasons, bruh.
Why am I not making dinner? Unknowable reasons.
Absolutely perfect.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 22, 2021, 03:27:44 PM
I am sure this was not Puget's intention, but "unknowable reasons" is now my go-to excuse for everything.
Why didn't I follow that procedure? Unknowable reasons, bruh.
Why am I not making dinner? Unknowable reasons.
Absolutely perfect.
You're welcome-- I'm glad some good could come of this fiasco.
Quote from: FishProf on November 22, 2021, 11:49:39 AM
Our registrar/Enrollment management division "updated" the software for catalogs and, in doing so, 'wiped a bunch of prerequisites that had gone through governance from the system. We protested but were told "the catalog is the official record".
I had to walk with last year's print catalog (the one they keep trying to retire) and show them what was required last year. Only then did the Registrar "get" the problem and promise to fix it. When I asked when, she said" after the semester ends (i.e. AFTER registration).
I told all the department chairs and we sent out a list of prerequisites and told our majors that, if they didn't have the prereqs by Jan 15, they would be dropped. We'll see what happens.
Good grief, Snoopy!
M.
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 22, 2021, 09:16:14 AM
Miss the announcements? They are probably choosing to ignore the announcements.
Yep. That's what I meant to say. It's usually the same people. They're just not reading. So frustrating.
Quote from: filologos on November 22, 2021, 09:57:48 AM
A student who will probably fail my class has asked to postpone the appointment he made to make up a quiz (he was "sick" when the quiz was given). His reason? "Something came up." He is actually the third student to cancel or not show up for a scheduled meeting today. I could have worked from home for another hour . . .
Put a 0 in the grade book and call it done.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 22, 2021, 03:27:44 PM
I am sure this was not Puget's intention, but "unknowable reasons" is now my go-to excuse for everything.
I'm adopting it as a bookend to "best practices"
*bang bang bang*
No, Stu, you can't reorder your dependent variable and then comment about how its growth pattern looks different. Of course it looks different! You changed your data! I could make it loop-the-loop if I wanted. Argh.
This isn't exactly despair, more like frustration (of my own making)......Students who did poorly on their writing assignments all semester currently still have low Bs or high Cs as their course grade because attendance/participation is worth almost half the total points. Obviously the students won't mind, but I'm irritated (with myself) that students who got Cs/Ds on their 3 papers are going to get low Bs or high Cs in the class. That also means that if I make a re-write of their most recent paper an option, most students won't take the option because, one, it probably won't raise their grade enough to make it worth it, but also because their course grade isn't necessarily that bad to begin with, despite the "bad" grades on their papers. I still might let the final paper be an optional re-write for everyone, though. I need to re-think my priorities before I design spring syllabi.
BANG! BANG! BANG! Plagiarism in a dissertation proposal. Some of it is poor paraphrasing, some of it is patchwork plagiarism, but some of it is direct sentence lifts. How do you get this far in grad school and not be able to paraphrase the literature that you are supposed to be an expert on because you area writing a dissertation on it?
Hobbit complains that hu cannot hear. Complains that hu has not fixed hu's hearing aids yet. Asks me to shout so hu can hear during class. Plays on hu's phone. It is week 2.
Week 14. Hu's presentation. Still no hearing aids. "Well, okay Hobbit, we're going to go with this...but this was not the assignment" (which is also spelled out in detail on Blackboard). "Why don't we go with this, okay."
Hobbit: "Oh my gosh, I am so, so sorry, I thought [misunderstanding the whole deal]."
Me: "It's okay, it's okay. We can go with this. Maybe just before the end of the semester you can [fill in the rest]."
As we are discussing hu's assignment with the class, I see the facemask below Hobbit's eyes start to darken with tears.
Oooooooohhhhhhhhhh......
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 03, 2021, 07:16:49 AM
BANG! BANG! BANG! Plagiarism in a dissertation proposal. Some of it is poor paraphrasing, some of it is patchwork plagiarism, but some of it is direct sentence lifts. How do you get this far in grad school and not be able to paraphrase the literature that you are supposed to be an expert on because you area writing a dissertation on it?
This may sound harsh, but is based on my own experience with this: file all the appropriate misconduct reports and apply all the appropriate sanctions. My experience was with a student who lifted full paragraphs from a web site in a draft of his dissertation. I caught the plagiarism the usual way: the text was much too polished compared the prior material submitted. I did not file any paperwork, but just had the student remove the plagiarized material. Six months later, during hu's defense, the student lied about one of the experiments and he lied about some of the work he claimed to have done. In retrospect, it would have been better for everyone had I filed the misconduct reports and had the student kicked out of the program at the time I saw he was plagiarizing in the dissertation.
Quote from: arcturus on December 03, 2021, 08:02:43 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 03, 2021, 07:16:49 AM
BANG! BANG! BANG! Plagiarism in a dissertation proposal. Some of it is poor paraphrasing, some of it is patchwork plagiarism, but some of it is direct sentence lifts. How do you get this far in grad school and not be able to paraphrase the literature that you are supposed to be an expert on because you area writing a dissertation on it?
This may sound harsh, but is based on my own experience with this: file all the appropriate misconduct reports and apply all the appropriate sanctions. My experience was with a student who lifted full paragraphs from a web site in a draft of his dissertation. I caught the plagiarism the usual way: the text was much too polished compared the prior material submitted. I did not file any paperwork, but just had the student remove the plagiarized material. Six months later, during hu's defense, the student lied about one of the experiments and he lied about some of the work he claimed to have done. In retrospect, it would have been better for everyone had I filed the misconduct reports and had the student kicked out of the program at the time I saw he was plagiarizing in the dissertation.
We are following procedure, which first involves meeting with the student (in this case, at the proposal meeting). The chair is looped in. I've filed paperwork before at both the undergraduate and graduate level, so I know the process. I don't think the student will be kicked out; there are a range of penalties we could enact. I'm just cranky it's gotten this far. I'm about to make it a requirement that if you want me to serve on your committee, you have to submit your draft to our version of Turn It In in advance of when it is distributed to the committee to document your proposal is written correctly, so I'm not catching it right before the meeting. I know for most students, this will be a non-issue, but this is not the 1st time I've caught plagiarism right before the thesis/dissertation meeting, and I'm tired of being the heavy.
I've had TWO graduate TAs contact me to say that the "messed up" and just assigned grades to presentations without using the provided rubric.
What?!
Why?!
Congratulations, TA. You now get to go back and regrade them using the rubrics, share the scored rubrics with me, and you're going to be the one the students are mad at if their scores are lower.
Stu who plagiarized at least three assignments and who hasn't bothered to respond to emails from the Academic Integrity office has, guess what, plagiarized again. Almost the entire discussion is from a website from which Stu plagiarized an earlier assignment.
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 03, 2021, 06:27:58 PM
Stu who plagiarized at least three assignments and who hasn't bothered to respond to emails from the Academic Integrity office has, guess what, plagiarized again. Almost the entire discussion is from a website from which Stu plagiarized an earlier assignment.
At least Stu is consistent.
Student who needs to pass my class to graduate and GO AWAY - and is a long shot to do that, just emailed me that he got himself suspended for the last week of the semester.
For gen-ed courses, I ask students to submit to me quiz-style questions in preparation for final exam review. Most of the time the review session consists of teams of students trying to stump other teams. I then collect those questions and post them all to the LMS as a study guide. Students seem to love it, and it's very little work for me.
I tried this for a class of majors this semester. Only 3 students submitted their questions to me (out of 28) enrolled, so the study guide was less than a page. Some (other) students are now complaining that "I promised a study guide" but the one posted is "insufficient." How is that my fault?
Online practical exam, fill-in-the-blank.
Instructions include - I program the correct answers into the grading system. It only recognizes EXACT spellings. However, AFTER everyone has taken the exam, I will go back through and manually give partial credit for close answers. Just be patient.
30 minutes after exam goes live (and it's 30 min long): "I just finished the inverts practical and there were two questions that I got wrong due to misspelling. I believed for question # 8 I put Crustacean instead of Crustacea and for # 12 I put Echinodea instead of Echinoidea. Is there any chance you can give me some partial credits for that?"
I so want to say: "Well, no. Not now. You didn't pay attention to the instructions."
FishProf, I don't understand the situation. Those wouldn't count for partial credit?
I feel a little bad for students with spelling difficulties. My son (college age) is as smart as they come, but sometimes he even spells his own name wrong. He would probably fail your subject on the spelling requirement alone.
Quote from: Hegemony on December 04, 2021, 08:51:51 AM
FishProf, I don't understand the situation. Those wouldn't count for partial credit?
I feel a little bad for students with spelling difficulties. My son (college age) is as smart as they come, but sometimes he even spells his own name wrong. He would probably fail your subject on the spelling requirement alone.
I think Fishprof is indicating that the answers are going to get partial/full credit, but due to Fishprof not having magical instant regrading abilities it might take more than 30 minutes for the updates to be made. And that Fishprof is frustrated with the student ignoring the directions that state "AFTER everyone has taken the exam, I will go back through and manually give partial credit for close answers. Just be patient"
I'm guessing the "not now" comment is a "wish I could say" thing not a "this is my plan" thing.
Thank you onthefringe, that is a perfect summary.
I have way to many legit emails to process and address at this time of year to waste time answering questions already answered.
I am just done.
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 10:56:17 AM
Thank you onthefringe, that is a perfect summary.
I have way to many legit emails to process and address at this time of year to waste time answering questions already answered.
I am just done.
FishProf, does you want the exam to release scores to students even before you've given partial credit for spelling errors? I have some exam items autograded, but I've set it up so it does not release to students until I've checked the exams (and corrected for issues that you described) as well as scored any questions that are not autograded. Do you want students to have immediate feedback (and their grades may go up after you give partial credit) or can you set your exams to not release grades until you've corrected them?
I am also very done this semester. But, it's mostly my own fault for not adjusting my classes correctly in the transition from fully online to hyflex.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 04, 2021, 11:53:58 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 10:56:17 AM
Thank you onthefringe, that is a perfect summary.
I have way to many legit emails to process and address at this time of year to waste time answering questions already answered.
I am just done.
FishProf, does you want the exam to release scores to students even before you've given partial credit for spelling errors? I have some exam items autograded, but I've set it up so it does not release to students until I've checked the exams (and corrected for issues that you described) as well as scored any questions that are not autograded. Do you want students to have immediate feedback (and their grades may go up after you give partial credit) or can you set your exams to not release grades until you've corrected them?
I am also very done this semester. But, it's mostly my own fault for not adjusting my classes correctly in the transition from fully online to hyflex.
Yes, I've found it reduces a lot of panicked emails if I delay releasing any grades until everything is checked and I've sent a course announcement with info about interpreting the grades. I also use this strategically to control when the panicked emails will arrive-- even if the grading is all done the evening after a test, I won't release them to the students until the next morning because I don't want a bunch of evening emails.
Perhaps I was too optimistic that my announcement both in class and written with the test instructions with allay any excessive concerns. So I was happy with them seeing the minimum score they were getting right away
Students in my class have a lab writeup due mid-term. if they submit it on time they are allowed to revise it and improve, but if they don't submit on time they can still turn it in late through the end of the term. A small handful of students did not submit writeups on time and I use our LMS to contact them on a weekly basis and remind them "your writeup is still missing, it must be submitted by X at X pm. I will not grade writeups after that. And of course three of them did not turn in the writeup by the end of the term and then emailed me the next morning to ask for an extension, which was turned down. But I still feel bad!! Does anyone else ever feel that trying to give students a lifeline (the extended deadline) inadvertently is giving them the rope to hang themselves?
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 06, 2021, 08:30:49 AM
Students in my class have a lab writeup due mid-term. if they submit it on time they are allowed to revise it and improve, but if they don't submit on time they can still turn it in late through the end of the term. A small handful of students did not submit writeups on time and I use our LMS to contact them on a weekly basis and remind them "your writeup is still missing, it must be submitted by X at X pm. I will not grade writeups after that. And of course three of them did not turn in the writeup by the end of the term and then emailed me the next morning to ask for an extension, which was turned down. But I still feel bad!! Does anyone else ever feel that trying to give students a lifeline (the extended deadline) inadvertently is giving them the rope to hang themselves?
No, I think it's a way to fully document that you gave them the opportunity to succeed, reminded them of said path, and documented the results of their choices. A student having a rough week, that is otherwise an organized & responsible student, would have turned in their report.
I have a similar method for the handful of students that were absent from their lab presentations. I contact them, tell them they can present to me (in person or on Zoom, or even send me a recording), and see what happens. As of today, only 1 of the 10 or so students has arranged to meet with me. The others are not responding. So, when I enter a grade of 0 points, I have documentation that I gave them the opportunity to succeed, but I'm not dragging them kicking and screaming into my office to show me their presentation.
Student's essay on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" argues that the greatest fear of the town residents was "airborne pathogens" and I wonder which story she read instead.
Quote from: RatGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:46:45 PM
Student's essay on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" argues that the greatest fear of the town residents was "airborne pathogens" and I wonder which story she read instead.
Sounds like, whatever it was, she slept through the class discussion...
M.
Quote from: RatGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:46:45 PM
Student's essay on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" argues that the greatest fear of the town residents was "airborne pathogens" and I wonder which story she read instead.
I'd guess it comes from the line "There was a contagion in the very air that blew from that haunted region; it breathed forth an atmosphere of dreams and fancies infecting all the land."
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 06, 2021, 07:03:39 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:46:45 PM
Student's essay on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" argues that the greatest fear of the town residents was "airborne pathogens" and I wonder which story she read instead.
I'd guess it comes from the line "There was a contagion in the very air that blew from that haunted region; it breathed forth an atmosphere of dreams and fancies infecting all the land."
Is there a term, kind of like memes, but for bad ideas *and/or incorrect information that gets distributed like a pathogen? If there isn't, there should be.
(*Maybe there need to be different terms for different kinds of things, like different virus types. So, for instance an unhealthy or unsafe fad would have a different term than an untruth like "vaccines cause autism".)
"Miasmas and fogs,"
(...actually the 19th c.medical rationale behind closing colonial burying grounds for public health reasons...)
M.
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Student who needs to pass my class to graduate and GO AWAY - and is a long shot to do that, just emailed me that he got himself suspended for the last week of the semester.
Like he can't go to class? Is that a thing?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on December 06, 2021, 07:03:39 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 06, 2021, 03:46:45 PM
Student's essay on "The Legend of Sleepy Hollow" argues that the greatest fear of the town residents was "airborne pathogens" and I wonder which story she read instead.
I'd guess it comes from the line "There was a contagion in the very air that blew from that haunted region; it breathed forth an atmosphere of dreams and fancies infecting all the land."
Yeah, we discussed that passage (and the one later where Knickerbocker says that even visitors aren't immune to the drowsy atmosphere of that sleepy region). In class I approached it from the vantage point of Irving's concept of mutability, and explaining why a place like Sleepy Hollow would stick to its local folklore while the rest of the country progressed after the Revolution. But the student doesn't quote the line in her essay, and she seems to think that the story is about a town beset by a plague. In another paragraph, she references Charles Brockden Brown, so I'm wondering now if she's confusing this story with
Ormond, without bothering to double-check the texts themselves.
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Student who needs to pass my class to graduate and GO AWAY - and is a long shot to do that, just emailed me that he got himself suspended for the last week of the semester.
Like he can't go to class? Is that a thing?
Yes, exactly. He has a hearing today, and a final Friday...
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 07:21:50 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Student who needs to pass my class to graduate and GO AWAY - and is a long shot to do that, just emailed me that he got himself suspended for the last week of the semester.
Like he can't go to class? Is that a thing?
Yes, exactly. He has a hearing today, and a final Friday...
Unless, the suspension is for dangerous or disruptive behavior in classes, that seems like a really bad policy. I know it isn't your policy...
ARG! This one is on me. I have two class sections - they have different meeting schedules, which means the University-posted final exam times are different for them. I always give them 24 hours surrounding the posted time to do their final in the LMS. But... I screwed up the LMS programming and accidentally programmed both sections to have the same timing. So students in one of the sections went to start their final last night (because of course they did) and discovered it was locked down. Cue panicked emails streaming in while I blissfully slept. I fixed the problem by apologizing profusely and giving them an extra 24 hours beginning this morning as soon as I saw their emails, but they didn't need that extra stress (neither did I).
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 07, 2021, 08:41:59 AM
ARG! This one is on me. I have two class sections - they have different meeting schedules, which means the University-posted final exam times are different for them. I always give them 24 hours surrounding the posted time to do their final in the LMS. But... I screwed up the LMS programming and accidentally programmed both sections to have the same timing. So students in one of the sections went to start their final last night (because of course they did) and discovered it was locked down. Cue panicked emails streaming in while I blissfully slept. I fixed the problem by apologizing profusely and giving them an extra 24 hours beginning this morning as soon as I saw their emails, but they didn't need that extra stress (neither did I).
This gave me flashbacks to last fall, when we used testing in the LMS because students were half remote. I set the LMS to give them access only during the assigned final exam block. In the middle of the final exam, the system suddenly kicked them all out of the test, saying their time was up. Cue mass panic. It turned out what had happened was an LMS server went down, and for some reason no one ever explained to me, the back-up server they switched to *had the wrong clock time*. I frantically re-set the system to give them a second attempt building on the first, with extra time added to make up for the delay and panic. Then it happened *again* half an hour later. Again, no one could ever explain why. We got through it, but I think it took several months off my life. So glad to be testing on paper this semester-- nothing can go wrong with paper technology (well, except students forgetting to bring pencils, that always happens).
When I teach the large intro class, I often bring extra pencils to exams. I collect leftover mechanical pencils from the teaching labs and keep a bundle of them sitting around. Then I just throw it in the box with the exams and answer sheets.
For exams in upper division classes, I always bring a couple of extra calculators.
I bring pencils and boxes of tissues. I leave the tissues in the classroom for the next set of students.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on December 03, 2021, 06:59:48 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 03, 2021, 06:27:58 PM
Stu who plagiarized at least three assignments and who hasn't bothered to respond to emails from the Academic Integrity office has, guess what, plagiarized again. Almost the entire discussion is from a website from which Stu plagiarized an earlier assignment.
At least Stu is consistent.
Yup. Just saw that the above-mentioned Stu has copied and pasted several sentences from the same website on yet another assignment.
Quote
Under the bludgeonings of chance [repeated plagiarism]
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 07:30:26 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 07:21:50 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 07, 2021, 06:48:45 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 04, 2021, 07:00:57 AM
Student who needs to pass my class to graduate and GO AWAY - and is a long shot to do that, just emailed me that he got himself suspended for the last week of the semester.
Like he can't go to class? Is that a thing?
Yes, exactly. He has a hearing today, and a final Friday...
Unless, the suspension is for dangerous or disruptive behavior in classes, that seems like a really bad policy. I know it isn't your policy...
Suspended is a pretty big deal, so it's not necessarily a bad policy. It's probably
intended to bring the student's studies to a screeching halt until the issue is resolved.
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
My "it's from google" plagiarist is back: hu would like to be given an extra credit opportunity since "...you took [X] points off of my final project and that took away a lot of points that I did not have originally." Hu seems to be missing the point of sanctions for academic misconduct...
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus. I can't really see the argument for not letting someone come to classes if the school is fine with them hanging out on campus. Suspension should be for something like starting fires where there's reason to believe the student's presence in the building might be dangerous to everyone else.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus. I can't really see the argument for not letting someone come to classes if the school is fine with them hanging out on campus. Suspension should be for something like starting fires where there's reason to believe the student's presence in the building might be dangerous to everyone else. All a temporary suspension from classes is likely to do is keep this student from passing classes.
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus.
Agreed. But he IS banned from campus. Today is the last class meeting and it is - PRESENTATIONS!
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus. I can't really see the argument for not letting someone come to classes if the school is fine with them hanging out on campus. Suspension should be for something like starting fires where there's reason to believe the student's presence in the building might be dangerous to everyone else. All a temporary suspension from classes is likely to do is keep this student from passing classes.
So what do you see as an alternative to suspension? Can the student continue with their studies and graduate without any sort of apology or punishment? The ability to suspend their studies is the only leverage an institution has unless criminal charges are laid.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 05:34:50 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus. I can't really see the argument for not letting someone come to classes if the school is fine with them hanging out on campus. Suspension should be for something like starting fires where there's reason to believe the student's presence in the building might be dangerous to everyone else. All a temporary suspension from classes is likely to do is keep this student from passing classes.
So what do you see as an alternative to suspension? Can the student continue with their studies and graduate without any sort of apology or punishment? The ability to suspend their studies is the only leverage an institution has unless criminal charges are laid.
Oh, well I'd assume he couldn't graduate anyway if he just ignored the disciplinary process. Graduation is dependent on being in good standing right? I dunno, just as a matter of fair process, it doesn't seem right to impose a harsher penalty before adjudication then is likely to be imposed after. As a first offense, I would assume this isn't the kind of thing that would usually get a student expelled. Legally, it is also pretty unlikely to lead to jail time or even a felony conviction, unless there is more to it.
I suppose it comes down to how you classify something like this and the details. If this doofus was doing burners in an empty parking lot, that's stupid and potentially really dangerous. I don't really think it goes to the level where its reasonable to decide that his presence on campus is a safety risk. If it looked like a fast and furious movie with innocent bystanders running for cover that would be different...
Quote from: FishProf on December 08, 2021, 05:34:07 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus.
Agreed. But he IS banned from campus. Today is the last class meeting and it is - PRESENTATIONS!
Fun, so you're left to try to figure out how to deal with this?
Yup. We can't even get an answer to whether he can continue to do online work, like quizzes.
Nor do we know if "suspended" is grounds for an "incomplete"
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 07:17:11 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 08, 2021, 05:34:07 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 07, 2021, 10:38:12 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 07, 2021, 10:32:19 AM
Marshwiggle - you just made an inadvertent pun.
The student says he was arrested and towed for doing burnouts in the parking lot. Maybe.
If I ever am allowed to know the truth, I'll pass it on.
Cool. Maybe I have psychic abilities I didn't know about.
Ha. That almost has to be true right? If the student did something worse they didn't want to tell you about, they would surely never make up such an embarrassing lie?
I still think the school suspending students from class over disciplinary issues is a stupid policy unless there are safety issues with allowing students to come to class or to be on campus.
Agreed. But he IS banned from campus. Today is the last class meeting and it is - PRESENTATIONS!
Fun, so you're left to try to figure out how to deal with this?
There is the option for a student to present to you individually on Zoom. I do that for students who were absent. It's a win-win: prepared students do a great job and are super thankful for the opportunity, unprepared students don't bother to show up and I have documentation that they declined my offer of a second chance.
Quote from: Caracal on December 08, 2021, 07:16:38 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2021, 05:34:50 AM
So what do you see as an alternative to suspension? Can the student continue with their studies and graduate without any sort of apology or punishment? The ability to suspend their studies is the only leverage an institution has unless criminal charges are laid.
Oh, well I'd assume he couldn't graduate anyway if he just ignored the disciplinary process. Graduation is dependent on being in good standing right? I dunno, just as a matter of fair process, it doesn't seem right to impose a harsher penalty before adjudication then is likely to be imposed after. As a first offense, I would assume this isn't the kind of thing that would usually get a student expelled. Legally, it is also pretty unlikely to lead to jail time or even a felony conviction, unless there is more to it.
I suppose it comes down to how you classify something like this and the details. If this doofus was doing burners in an empty parking lot, that's stupid and potentially really dangerous. I don't really think it goes to the level where its reasonable to decide that his presence on campus is a safety risk. If it looked like a fast and furious movie with innocent bystanders running for cover that would be different...
The specific offense isn't really the issue; the question is whether an institution can impose
any meaningful sanction for behaviour that doesn't count as criminal, short of expulsion. It's not clear that they have a lot of options. Precisely
because suspension could torpedo the current academic term it provides significant leverage. Anything that doesn't jeopardize academic standing isn't going to be very motivating.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 08, 2021, 07:25:07 AM
There is the option for a student to present to you individually on Zoom.
It is not clear that IS an option. I am awaiting a ruling on whether that is allowed.
Also, my final is an IN PERSON OFF SITE final. Not replicable via Zoom.
When will students learn how to do BASIC Math? I try to make final grade calculation easy. All they have to do is add up their points and divide by 10. Is it really that hard to do? I even have an example...
DON'T
[bang]
SPEND.
[bang]
THE FIRST HALF
[bang]
OF YOUR TALK
[bang]
WHEEDLING
[bang]
FOR
[bang]
MERCY.
There is none to be had.
Last day of class was yesterday. Student emails that she just noticed she had zeros for two lessons from much earlier in the semester, but she did them now so she should be all set, and sorry about that. I had to break it to her that these are due by the start of class each week and PER THE SYLLABUS there is no late credit. I had a syllabus quiz and everything. Sigh.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 09, 2021, 10:10:08 AM
When will students learn how to do BASIC Math? I try to make final grade calculation easy. All they have to do is add up their points and divide by 10. Is it really that hard to do? I even have an example...
I feel your pain-- I recently had a student ask what percent they got on a returned exam, where the score was reported out of 50 points. Not sure if the problem was in multiplying the result by 2 or a basic understanding of percents.
Quote from: Puget on December 09, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
Last day of class was yesterday. Student emails that she just noticed she had zeros for two lessons from much earlier in the semester, but she did them now so she should be all set, and sorry about that. I had to break it to her that these are due by the start of class each week and PER THE SYLLABUS there is no late credit. I had a syllabus quiz and everything. Sigh.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 09, 2021, 10:10:08 AM
When will students learn how to do BASIC Math? I try to make final grade calculation easy. All they have to do is add up their points and divide by 10. Is it really that hard to do? I even have an example...
I feel your pain-- I recently had a student ask what percent they got on a returned exam, where the score was reported out of 50 points. Not sure if the problem was in multiplying the result by 2 or a basic understanding of percents.
Or in realizing that dividing by 50 and then multiplying by 100 is the same as multiplying by 2.
Quote from: Puget on December 09, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
Last day of class was yesterday. Student emails that she just noticed she had zeros for two lessons from much earlier in the semester, but she did them now so she should be all set, and sorry about that. I had to break it to her that these are due by the start of class each week and PER THE SYLLABUS there is no late credit. I had a syllabus quiz and everything. Sigh.
I feel your pain on that one. I have students beg to turn in their missed pre-lab assignments at the end of the term. No. The entire point of the pre-lab assignment is to get you prepared for lab that day. It's in the syllabus. I also have a syllabus quiz.
I suppose student optimism knows no bounds.
Everything for the semester is due in 1.5 hours.
Cue the panicked emails about needing extensions.
I checked one such request. Reading quizzes attempted 1of21, Lecture quizzes 10f22, Video Quizzes 0of18.
Yeah. You can't salvage this at the 11th hour.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 09, 2021, 10:10:08 AM
When will students learn how to do BASIC Math? I try to make final grade calculation easy. All they have to do is add up their points and divide by 10. Is it really that hard to do? I even have an example...
[brag] I just had a student who did the math and used algebra to solve for x, so they realized they needed a 75% or better on the exam to pass.[/brag].
Then they emailed to ask what would happen if they failed the class, thus nuking all the good will they had earned from showing their algebraic skill, since the answer to that question is all in the course handbook. If I were less grumpy I would have told them what page to look on, but because I am more grumpy I just told them to look in the handbook.
Quote from: quasihumanist on December 09, 2021, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 09, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
Last day of class was yesterday. Student emails that she just noticed she had zeros for two lessons from much earlier in the semester, but she did them now so she should be all set, and sorry about that. I had to break it to her that these are due by the start of class each week and PER THE SYLLABUS there is no late credit. I had a syllabus quiz and everything. Sigh.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 09, 2021, 10:10:08 AM
When will students learn how to do BASIC Math? I try to make final grade calculation easy. All they have to do is add up their points and divide by 10. Is it really that hard to do? I even have an example...
I feel your pain-- I recently had a student ask what percent they got on a returned exam, where the score was reported out of 50 points. Not sure if the problem was in multiplying the result by 2 or a basic understanding of percents.
Or in realizing that dividing by 50 and then multiplying by 100 is the same as multiplying by 2.
DAMN YOUR LOGIC, SPOCK!
I was thinking (having subbed in local schools) that the student well might have gotten stuck on whether you multiply by 5 first, or 2...since some places don't seem to teach "add a zero," or "move the decimal place over" anymore.
In Trachtenberg's system (which I once got in trouble for trying to learn and use in a 5th grade math test) you do, in fact double and then multiply by 5. (In that system, you learn to look at figures and "halve" or "double" them in your head, so x 5 is half the figure times 10--same reasoning).
I flunked that test, got taken to the principal's office and yelled at (wanting to say, the whole time, "why aren't you praising me for doing something inventive?") and returned the book to the library.
Sic transit gloria mathematicus...
M.
(Yes, I know that's a neolatinism...)
Just got a begging and pleading email from a student who is on Academic Probation and heading to Academic Suspension for some work to do so she can pass the class (she even gave me a desired score). What makes her think that she can convince me she'll do this extra work when she's done only about a week's worth of the work for the class so far is beyond me. Apparently I'm the reason she's "kissing her education goodbye" and not the 11 classes she failed over the last year. You would think someone so desperate to avoid Suspension would maybe put a modicum of effort in.
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 10, 2021, 09:36:19 AM
Just got a begging and pleading email from a student who is on Academic Probation and heading to Academic Suspension for some work to do so she can pass the class (she even gave me a desired score). What makes her think that she can convince me she'll do this extra work when she's done only about a week's worth of the work for the class so far is beyond me. Apparently I'm the reason she's "kissing her education goodbye" and not the 11 classes she failed over the last year. You would think someone so desperate to avoid Suspension would maybe put a modicum of effort in.
Oh, they are putting lots of effort into begging for forgiveness/special treatment/no consequences.
Academic effort, not so much.
There are only so many times I can repeat that you have to sign up for a day when your presentation is due, and that the "participation" component of the class--which the university requires--is fulfilled by making at least one post a week in the discussion forum for ten weeks. It's on the syllabus. I sent out reminder emails. It's on the discussion forum--several times, because several people asked. I repeated it in our live sessions.
At some point, you do actually have to look at the syllabus.
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 10, 2021, 09:36:19 AM
Apparently I'm the reason she's "kissing her education goodbye" and not the 11 classes she failed over the last year.
Welcome to the Destroyer of Lives and Crusher of Dreams Society, Istiblennius!
Your official membership certificate is in the mail, and you can PM me for the instructions for the secret handshake.
Yours,
AmLitHist
Founding Member, DLCDS
Quote from: mamselle on December 10, 2021, 08:48:30 AM
I was thinking (having subbed in local schools) that the student well might have gotten stuck on whether you multiply by 5 first, or 2...since some places don't seem to teach "add a zero," or "move the decimal place over" anymore.
In Trachtenberg's system (which I once got in trouble for trying to learn and use in a 5th grade math test) you do, in fact double and then multiply by 5. (In that system, you learn to look at figures and "halve" or "double" them in your head, so x 5 is half the figure times 10--same reasoning).
I flunked that test, got taken to the principal's office and yelled at (wanting to say, the whole time, "why aren't you praising me for doing something inventive?") and returned the book to the library.
Sic transit gloria mathematicus...
M.
(Yes, I know that's a neolatinism...)
I think you are making this way more complicated than it is. If your score is 40/50, you just multiply the top number by 2 to get your score out of 100, which is your percent of course. There isn't any multiplying by 5 involved or moving decimal places involved. That's why it was surprising the student asked what their percent was.
This may be one of the students under the delusion that psychology doesn't involve math. Just wait until they get to stats and research methods. . .
I'm not making it more complex, that's how math is taught in public schools these days.
That's what I mean about having subbed in the schools--the students that aren't understanding percent conversions learned to do it in this squirrely way that bypasses all the simple, straightforward ways that might otherwise make sense.
I'm not saying one should do it that way, but that's how they've been taught to think about it.
M.
I temporarily swam up out of the sucking whirlpool of grading and feedback. The calendar tells me it is Dec 11, our family does Christmas, and holy hell I'm weighing my options with telling my youngest child that there isn't a Santa because it would take the pressure off of delivering holiday magic. I have not a single brain cell available.
If you wait another year, her school friends will tell her--if they haven't already.
Don't know if that alleviates or increases the pressure...
M.
Posted as announcement on Thursday (last day of semester) AND announced Thursday and at the Final on Friday:
"DO NOT PANIC!
If you see a 60% on your portfolio score, that is JUST A PLACEHOLDER to indicate I have received it. That is NOT yor grade (probably).
Don't email me in a lather.
In fact, don't email me at all UNTIL I post an announcement that everything is graded. THEN if you have a question you can email me"
One student has now emailed me 8 times begging for a higher grade and a chance to do some missed assignments. Oh Noes! She won't graduate if she doesn't pass!
I am currently on Radio Silence while I grade.
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Quote from: ergative on December 13, 2021, 08:44:32 AM
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Does your LMS let you restrict the file types that can be submitted? Moodle does, which is much easier than getting them to follow directions.
Quote from: Puget on December 13, 2021, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 13, 2021, 08:44:32 AM
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Does your LMS let you restrict the file types that can be submitted? Moodle does, which is much easier than getting them to follow directions.
TurnItIn does, too. You set it to only accept formats that it can access.
Quote from: dr_codex on December 13, 2021, 09:49:01 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 13, 2021, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 13, 2021, 08:44:32 AM
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Does your LMS let you restrict the file types that can be submitted? Moodle does, which is much easier than getting them to follow directions.
TurnItIn does, too. You set it to only accept formats that it can access.
Same with Canvas. They figure it out.
I use https://cloudconvert.com/ (https://cloudconvert.com/) to convert .pages to .docx documents. When I am in a good mood. Or just want to get the $hit graded. Better than trying to find a Mac.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 13, 2021, 01:16:39 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 13, 2021, 09:49:01 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 13, 2021, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 13, 2021, 08:44:32 AM
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Does your LMS let you restrict the file types that can be submitted? Moodle does, which is much easier than getting them to follow directions.
TurnItIn does, too. You set it to only accept formats that it can access.
Same with Canvas. They figure it out.
Yes, we use Moodle. The problem is that, depending on the class, sometimes we want students to submit things in different file formats (e.g., some classes need to accept 'all formats' because Moodle doesn't have a special ticky-box for .RData extensions), and our admin team really want to have a universal set-up that applies to all submission boxes. They still whine a bit when we try to suggest that not all classes have a midterm essay and final essay with identical due dates across the entire school, and dragged their feet removing those default submission portals from the Moodles. Students were quite grumpy this year with random deadlines popping up in their calendars saying 'Midterm essay due this week!' for classes with no midterm essay assignment on the syllabus. So for this class admin tried to use a default template submission portal that allowed all file formats to be submitted.
However, this particular .pages headache has impressed upon our admin team why it is, in fact, worth having separate submission settings for separate classes, and the other class that has a final exam due this week will properly restrict file formats.
Quote from: ergative on December 14, 2021, 01:50:36 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 13, 2021, 01:16:39 PM
Quote from: dr_codex on December 13, 2021, 09:49:01 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 13, 2021, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 13, 2021, 08:44:32 AM
Don't submit a .pages file for your final exam.
Don't submit a link to sharepoint document and then deny access for your final exam.
You have a student account to Office 365. The submission instructions say to upload a .docx or .pdf file. WE PROVIDE YOU WITH A TEMPLATE IN THE CORRECT FILE FOLDER THAT YOU JUST NEED TO FILL OUT AND UPLOAD.
And yet, somehow, emails are winging their way back and forth looking for staff members who have macs and can convert .pages to .pdf so the exam can be graded. If you weren't itty bitty baby first-year students I'd just flunk them all and be done with them. (Actually, access-denied sharepoint kid is flunking anyway.)
Does your LMS let you restrict the file types that can be submitted? Moodle does, which is much easier than getting them to follow directions.
TurnItIn does, too. You set it to only accept formats that it can access.
Same with Canvas. They figure it out.
Yes, we use Moodle. The problem is that, depending on the class, sometimes we want students to submit things in different file formats (e.g., some classes need to accept 'all formats' because Moodle doesn't have a special ticky-box for .RData extensions), and our admin team really want to have a universal set-up that applies to all submission boxes. They still whine a bit when we try to suggest that not all classes have a midterm essay and final essay with identical due dates across the entire school, and dragged their feet removing those default submission portals from the Moodles. Students were quite grumpy this year with random deadlines popping up in their calendars saying 'Midterm essay due this week!' for classes with no midterm essay assignment on the syllabus. So for this class admin tried to use a default template submission portal that allowed all file formats to be submitted.
However, this particular .pages headache has impressed upon our admin team why it is, in fact, worth having separate submission settings for separate classes, and the other class that has a final exam due this week will properly restrict file formats.
Weird! Faculty here would throw an absolute fit if anyone tried to tell them how to set up their LMS sites. A shell gets created for each class, but we're completely free to edit it. Certainly no one would think of creating submission portals for us!
Quote from: Puget on December 14, 2021, 06:21:49 AM
Weird! Faculty here would throw an absolute fit if anyone tried to tell them how to set up their LMS sites. A shell gets created for each class, but we're completely free to edit it. Certainly no one would think of creating submission portals for us!
To be honest, it's really, really nice not to have to keep track of who's got an extension and who needs which late penalties applied and who needs to be reminded that they missed a deadline and who needs help switching from the Tuesday to the Friday seminar section. I'm perfectly happy giving up a little bit of power in exchange for someone else dealing with the hassle and by the time our students are in their fourth year the consistency in policies means that they're quite well trained about things like applying for extensions and procedures for summer re-sits.
Good teaching practices (best?)
1) Give the students a Rubric when you assign X.
2) Give an example of X from previous years with feedback on its flaws (like, I dunno, the rubric)
3) Allow rough drafts for feedback.
Check. Check. And Check.
Good student practices.
1) Use the provided rubric to make sure you have completed the assignment as assigned.
2) Review the provided samples and the critiques.
3) Submit a rough draft so you can get feedback.
Nope. Nope. and Nope (except 1 student).
So NO ONE put an abstract worth 10% of the grade on their poster? SRSLY?
2) Look at previous examples
Not unlike the student who saw the quiz deadlines on the syllabus and the LMS (i.e. on the quizzes themselves) and figured that meant they opened on those dates and closed... never?
*headdesk*
Quote from: ergative on December 14, 2021, 07:47:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 14, 2021, 06:21:49 AM
Weird! Faculty here would throw an absolute fit if anyone tried to tell them how to set up their LMS sites. A shell gets created for each class, but we're completely free to edit it. Certainly no one would think of creating submission portals for us!
To be honest, it's really, really nice not to have to keep track of who's got an extension and who needs which late penalties applied and who needs to be reminded that they missed a deadline and who needs help switching from the Tuesday to the Friday seminar section. I'm perfectly happy giving up a little bit of power in exchange for someone else dealing with the hassle and by the time our students are in their fourth year the consistency in policies means that they're quite well trained about things like applying for extensions and procedures for summer re-sits.
Whoa, you don't determine your own extension and late policies?
Quote from: Caracal on December 14, 2021, 09:59:44 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 14, 2021, 07:47:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 14, 2021, 06:21:49 AM
Weird! Faculty here would throw an absolute fit if anyone tried to tell them how to set up their LMS sites. A shell gets created for each class, but we're completely free to edit it. Certainly no one would think of creating submission portals for us!
To be honest, it's really, really nice not to have to keep track of who's got an extension and who needs which late penalties applied and who needs to be reminded that they missed a deadline and who needs help switching from the Tuesday to the Friday seminar section. I'm perfectly happy giving up a little bit of power in exchange for someone else dealing with the hassle and by the time our students are in their fourth year the consistency in policies means that they're quite well trained about things like applying for extensions and procedures for summer re-sits.
Whoa, you don't determine your own extension and late policies?
No. Students apply to the program coordinator for extensions, and late policies are uniform across the college. It's glorious. No whining! No begging! No arguing! No dead grandmothers! (Well, maybe dead grandmothers, but if so it's the program coordinator who killed 'em, not me.)
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
Quote from: lightning on December 14, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
My university's policy is that an incomplete can be assigned only if the student would be passing the course at the moment the incomplete was requested and legitimate reasons for the incomplete were documented. I like this policy. A lot. It does not prevent the failing student from asking, yet all I have to do is refer to university policy.
Quote from: aside on December 14, 2021, 02:24:25 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 14, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
My university's policy is that an incomplete can be assigned only if the student would be passing the course at the moment the incomplete was requested and legitimate reasons for the incomplete were documented. I like this policy. A lot. It does not prevent the failing student from asking, yet all I have to do is refer to university policy.
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Quote from: aside on December 14, 2021, 02:24:25 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 14, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
My university's policy is that an incomplete can be assigned only if the student would be passing the course at the moment the incomplete was requested and legitimate reasons for the incomplete were documented. I like this policy. A lot. It does not prevent the failing student from asking, yet all I have to do is refer to university policy.
Similar policy here. Academic advisors can authorize a retroactive Withdrawal if needed due to unforeseen complications (e.g. major health crisis).
You have to be passing the course AND have instructor consent to get an Incomplete. Missing that much of the class means they need to take it again.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 14, 2021, 04:03:42 PM
Quote from: aside on December 14, 2021, 02:24:25 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 14, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
My university's policy is that an incomplete can be assigned only if the student would be passing the course at the moment the incomplete was requested and legitimate reasons for the incomplete were documented. I like this policy. A lot. It does not prevent the failing student from asking, yet all I have to do is refer to university policy.
Similar policy here. Academic advisors can authorize a retroactive Withdrawal if needed due to unforeseen complications (e.g. major health crisis).
You have to be passing the course AND have instructor consent to get an Incomplete. Missing that much of the class means they need to take it again.
Same here. I'm literally proctoring a final right now, and a student with a 40% in the class just asked if she can get an incomplete to make up all the work she's missed all semester. Sorry honey, doesn't work like that.
We have a similar incomplete policy. That's why I don't give a s**t. The flake student can whine all they want to an administrator.
Quote from: arcturus on December 14, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Agree. I have also signed off on them where a student had a mid-semester crisis, has been back and catching up, but not quite made it.
Quote from: kiana on December 15, 2021, 04:13:05 AM
Quote from: arcturus on December 14, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Agree. I have also signed off on them where a student had a mid-semester crisis, has been back and catching up, but not quite made it.
We switched to a new system this year with no W-- they can simply drop up to early November and it's like the class never existed. I think this is more humane-- noting getting credits for the class is punishment enough without permanently branding their transcript.
After that, they can't just drop, but there are ways to make classes go away in a crisis (often of the mental health variety) situation -- they can apply to take a medical underload, or withdraw from the semester entirely, right up until grades are due, and those classes can vanish. Luckily faculty don't have to make any decisions about that-- staff academic advisors and the dean of students office take care of that.
Quote from: arcturus on December 14, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
Quote from: aside on December 14, 2021, 02:24:25 PM
Quote from: lightning on December 14, 2021, 01:57:42 PM
Student ghosted on me about five weeks ago. He was failing anyway because he had not turned in any work for most of the semester.
He emailed me last night, asking for an Incomplete. The final was this morning.
Course eval window closed already and half of the administrators have already scrammed for the semester (well, they will still meet you via Zoom & check email, ha ha).
I think I'm just going to ignore him, after sending a one word reply consisting of my favorite word at this time of the semester. That favorite word is "no."
My university's policy is that an incomplete can be assigned only if the student would be passing the course at the moment the incomplete was requested and legitimate reasons for the incomplete were documented. I like this policy. A lot. It does not prevent the failing student from asking, yet all I have to do is refer to university policy.
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Same here. Our policy allows retroactive withdrawals or incomplete requests, but the bar is very high for approval of these and the decision does not rest entirely with me.
At my university, Incomplete is not an option for undergrads. Not allowing incompletes means no sob stories about why I should accept and grade a mound of back work during my vacation time.
If a student misses the final, I can give a grade that means "all but final exam," and there is a date established by the university by which it must be made up.
Quote from: ergative on December 14, 2021, 10:10:02 AM
Quote from: Caracal on December 14, 2021, 09:59:44 AM
Quote from: ergative on December 14, 2021, 07:47:53 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 14, 2021, 06:21:49 AM
Weird! Faculty here would throw an absolute fit if anyone tried to tell them how to set up their LMS sites. A shell gets created for each class, but we're completely free to edit it. Certainly no one would think of creating submission portals for us!
To be honest, it's really, really nice not to have to keep track of who's got an extension and who needs which late penalties applied and who needs to be reminded that they missed a deadline and who needs help switching from the Tuesday to the Friday seminar section. I'm perfectly happy giving up a little bit of power in exchange for someone else dealing with the hassle and by the time our students are in their fourth year the consistency in policies means that they're quite well trained about things like applying for extensions and procedures for summer re-sits.
Whoa, you don't determine your own extension and late policies?
No. Students apply to the program coordinator for extensions, and late policies are uniform across the college. It's glorious. No whining! No begging! No arguing! No dead grandmothers! (Well, maybe dead grandmothers, but if so it's the program coordinator who killed 'em, not me.)
Huh. I can see the benefits, but I'm the one who is running the class and grading work. I wouldn't like having someone else deciding things like extensions and late penalties. I design course polices to make my classes run smoothly for me. A bunch of centralized rules would make my life more of a pain...
Quote from: Puget on December 15, 2021, 06:21:47 AM
Quote from: kiana on December 15, 2021, 04:13:05 AM
Quote from: arcturus on December 14, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Agree. I have also signed off on them where a student had a mid-semester crisis, has been back and catching up, but not quite made it.
We switched to a new system this year with no W-- they can simply drop up to early November and it's like the class never existed. I think this is more humane-- noting getting credits for the class is punishment enough without permanently branding their transcript.
After that, they can't just drop, but there are ways to make classes go away in a crisis (often of the mental health variety) situation -- they can apply to take a medical underload, or withdraw from the semester entirely, right up until grades are due, and those classes can vanish. Luckily faculty don't have to make any decisions about that-- staff academic advisors and the dean of students office take care of that.
I like the idea of the option for a late withdrawal, but I think it would work better as complementary to an incomplete, rather than a replacement for it. I've had students who were getting As, and then had sudden medical or family crises right at the end of the semester and weren't able to take the final, or turn in their paper. In those sorts of circumstances, the student should be able to get credit for the course if they can turn in the work.
Quote from: Caracal on December 15, 2021, 08:22:32 AM
Quote from: Puget on December 15, 2021, 06:21:47 AM
Quote from: kiana on December 15, 2021, 04:13:05 AM
Quote from: arcturus on December 14, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
We have a similar policy. I also like it because it makes my life easier. We also had a similar policy regarding late-term withdrawals, when our automatic-W date was mid-semester (it is now on the last date that classes meet). However, there are occassions where I think it is appropriate to consider the last date the student was engaged in the course, rather than the date of the requested incomplete/withdrawal. In some circumstances (often associated with mental health), the student does not know that they need to file for the incomplete until they are in deep trouble. If a student has been doing well, but then suffers a crisis, I do not penalize them for waiting a few weeks to ask for help.
Agree. I have also signed off on them where a student had a mid-semester crisis, has been back and catching up, but not quite made it.
We switched to a new system this year with no W-- they can simply drop up to early November and it's like the class never existed. I think this is more humane-- noting getting credits for the class is punishment enough without permanently branding their transcript.
After that, they can't just drop, but there are ways to make classes go away in a crisis (often of the mental health variety) situation -- they can apply to take a medical underload, or withdraw from the semester entirely, right up until grades are due, and those classes can vanish. Luckily faculty don't have to make any decisions about that-- staff academic advisors and the dean of students office take care of that.
I like the idea of the option for a late withdrawal, but I think it would work better as complementary to an incomplete, rather than a replacement for it. I've had students who were getting As, and then had sudden medical or family crises right at the end of the semester and weren't able to take the final, or turn in their paper. In those sorts of circumstances, the student should be able to get credit for the course if they can turn in the work.
Oh, we do still have incompletes as well, but they have to be passing and just missing a final exam or final assignment to get one. I tell students an incomplete is not a time machine.
No, a priming effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between unprimed and primed trials.
No, a simon effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between congruent and incongruent trials.
No, a switch cost is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between switch trials and no-switch trials.
No, a semantic interference effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between semantically related and unrelated trials.
Are you sensing a trend, students? Because I am. I've done everything I possibly can to make this clear, but of course if you don't come to seminar or lecture then you're not actually going to learn that NOT EVERYTHING IS FUCKING REACTION TIME. I used to give praise sandwiches when marking experiment proposals, but I'm not doing that anymore. If my comment that you don't understand your dependent variable leaves you feeling bad, then GOOD. It SHOULD leave you feeling bad, because you have shown that you have not learned the material.
(And if this rant is too specific and reveals my specific subdiscipline, I don't care anymore. If you recognize enough of the terms in this rant to identify my specific subdiscipline, then you will sympathize all the more with my frustration.)
Ugh, I feel you.
No, student, your experimental hypothesis is NOT just the opposite of the Null Hypothesis for your statistical test (If I had a time machine, I would go back and make sure the stats folks used a different term).
No, your hypothesis isn't an if-then statement. (If you didn't get this over the course of the semester, I should just fail you and make you take the course again).
Quote from: ergative on December 17, 2021, 01:02:37 AM
No, a priming effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between unprimed and primed trials.
No, a simon effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between congruent and incongruent trials.
No, a switch cost is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between switch trials and no-switch trials.
No, a semantic interference effect is not the same as reaction time. It's the DIFFERENCE in reaction time between semantically related and unrelated trials.
Are you sensing a trend, students? Because I am. I've done everything I possibly can to make this clear, but of course if you don't come to seminar or lecture then you're not actually going to learn that NOT EVERYTHING IS FUCKING REACTION TIME. I used to give praise sandwiches when marking experiment proposals, but I'm not doing that anymore. If my comment that you don't understand your dependent variable leaves you feeling bad, then GOOD. It SHOULD leave you feeling bad, because you have shown that you have not learned the material.
(And if this rant is too specific and reveals my specific subdiscipline, I don't care anymore. If you recognize enough of the terms in this rant to identify my specific subdiscipline, then you will sympathize all the more with my frustration.)
Yes and Yes.
You have my sympathy. For some reason difference scores are hard. I had to stop mid-discussion section this semester when they were totally confused by a simple bar graph of difference scores and give them a mini
rant lecture on how important it is to learn to interpret graphs as this was a basic skill they were going to need in every future class.
Dear students,
Online learning is hard. I get it, I really do. You have to be a lot more organized & responsible than you do for in person classes. That's why I build in a lot of structure, consistency, and transparency about what you are learning and what do to earn points in this class. But when assignments are: in the syllabus, in the online Assignment list, on your online CMS calendar, and I sent you a reminder email; then I have ZERO SYMPATHY for you when you "forgot/didn't realize/didn't know".
Get a day planner or calendar. Write down/type in/import all of your assignments. Use it.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
P.S. Also, wake up on time to go to class on time. You would have earned a 0 on that quiz in person "oh, I slept in" students. Or you could take the quiz early. It's available 24 hours before it's due. Because I'm nice. I could make it available for just the 1st 10 minutes of your live class time.
Quote from: FishProf on December 17, 2021, 03:49:53 AM
Ugh, I feel you.
No, student, your experimental hypothesis is NOT just the opposite of the Null Hypothesis for your statistical test (If I had a time machine, I would go back and make sure the stats folks used a different term).
No, your hypothesis isn't an if-then statement. (If you didn't get this over the course of the semester, I should just fail you and make you take the course again).
Do I ever feel your pain... my students are convinced the predictions and hypotheses are interchangeable and it is sooooooo hard to disabuse them of this notion. Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 13, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
My problem isn't so much that, as the difficulty in getting them to understand that you can't legitimately conclude that two things are the same (well, with NHST you can't). You can find that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they're different, but that's not the same as concluding that they're the same. And then my students turn around and design experiments with Condition A and Condition B and say 'If my hypothesis is correct, then there should be no difference in reaction time between Condition A and Condition B.' And instead of assigning the B- for understanding what a condition is and moving on, I'm somehow still writing marginal comments earnestly trying to point out everything that's wrong with that statement.
(I don't dare give up the marginal comments, because these projects are feeders for senior year capstone projects, and if I don't get sufficiently discouraging now, I run the risk of ending up with students wanting me to supervise their capstone experiments that just reuse the same project design, complete with the same problems.)
Quote from: ergative on January 13, 2022, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 13, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
My problem isn't so much that, as the difficulty in getting them to understand that you can't legitimately conclude that two things are the same (well, with NHST you can't). You can find that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they're different, but that's not the same as concluding that they're the same. And then my students turn around and design experiments with Condition A and Condition B and say 'If my hypothesis is correct, then there should be no difference in reaction time between Condition A and Condition B.' And instead of assigning the B- for understanding what a condition is and moving on, I'm somehow still writing marginal comments earnestly trying to point out everything that's wrong with that statement.
(I don't dare give up the marginal comments, because these projects are feeders for senior year capstone projects, and if I don't get sufficiently discouraging now, I run the risk of ending up with students wanting me to supervise their capstone experiments that just reuse the same project design, complete with the same problems.)
Well, as you note you can't with NHST, but you could with Bayesian analysis (or at least that the differences is smaller than whatever you would consider a meaningful difference). But I'm assuming you don't want to go there with your students.
I currently have a related head bang, not from a student (presumably) but from a reviewer, who earnestly explains that a better way (compared to the correct way we used which they don't like because of bias against certain types of models) to test our hypothesis that [predictors] are related to the shared variance among [outcome variables] is to predict one outcome variable covarying all the others and if the effect of the predictor goes away that means it was due to the shared variance among the outcome variables. I don't really know how to explain the problem with using a null effect as evidence in this way without coming across as condescending and "unresponsive to reviews". Sigh. Hopefully one of my co-authors will come up with something diplomatic.
Quote from: Puget on January 13, 2022, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: ergative on January 13, 2022, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 13, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
My problem isn't so much that, as the difficulty in getting them to understand that you can't legitimately conclude that two things are the same (well, with NHST you can't). You can find that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they're different, but that's not the same as concluding that they're the same. And then my students turn around and design experiments with Condition A and Condition B and say 'If my hypothesis is correct, then there should be no difference in reaction time between Condition A and Condition B.' And instead of assigning the B- for understanding what a condition is and moving on, I'm somehow still writing marginal comments earnestly trying to point out everything that's wrong with that statement.
(I don't dare give up the marginal comments, because these projects are feeders for senior year capstone projects, and if I don't get sufficiently discouraging now, I run the risk of ending up with students wanting me to supervise their capstone experiments that just reuse the same project design, complete with the same problems.)
Well, as you note you can't with NHST, but you could with Bayesian analysis (or at least that the differences is smaller than whatever you would consider a meaningful difference). But I'm assuming you don't want to go there with your students.
I currently have a related head bang, not from a student (presumably) but from a reviewer, who earnestly explains that a better way (compared to the correct way we used which they don't like because of bias against certain types of models) to test our hypothesis that [predictors] are related to the shared variance among [outcome variables] is to predict one outcome variable covarying all the others and if the effect of the predictor goes away that means it was due to the shared variance among the outcome variables. I don't really know how to explain the problem with using a null effect as evidence in this way without coming across as condescending and "unresponsive to reviews". Sigh. Hopefully one of my co-authors will come up with something diplomatic.
Statistics as taught at Hogwarts. p<0.05 forever!!!
One of my students sent me an email and asked if we had class today since there was nobody else in the room. Um, YES, we DID have class- in the same room we've been having it in. Were you in the wrong room?
Banging my damn head.
Quote from: Puget on January 13, 2022, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: ergative on January 13, 2022, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 13, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
My problem isn't so much that, as the difficulty in getting them to understand that you can't legitimately conclude that two things are the same (well, with NHST you can't). You can find that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they're different, but that's not the same as concluding that they're the same. And then my students turn around and design experiments with Condition A and Condition B and say 'If my hypothesis is correct, then there should be no difference in reaction time between Condition A and Condition B.' And instead of assigning the B- for understanding what a condition is and moving on, I'm somehow still writing marginal comments earnestly trying to point out everything that's wrong with that statement.
(I don't dare give up the marginal comments, because these projects are feeders for senior year capstone projects, and if I don't get sufficiently discouraging now, I run the risk of ending up with students wanting me to supervise their capstone experiments that just reuse the same project design, complete with the same problems.)
Well, as you note you can't with NHST, but you could with Bayesian analysis (or at least that the differences is smaller than whatever you would consider a meaningful difference). But I'm assuming you don't want to go there with your students.
I currently have a related head bang, not from a student (presumably) but from a reviewer, who earnestly explains that a better way (compared to the correct way we used which they don't like because of bias against certain types of models) to test our hypothesis that [predictors] are related to the shared variance among [outcome variables] is to predict one outcome variable covarying all the others and if the effect of the predictor goes away that means it was due to the shared variance among the outcome variables. I don't really know how to explain the problem with using a null effect as evidence in this way without coming across as condescending and "unresponsive to reviews". Sigh. Hopefully one of my co-authors will come up with something diplomatic.
I actually put a parenthetical about Bayesian analysis into my original response, and then took it out because it was getting too convoluted already and I didn't feel like typing it out. Thank you very much for picking up the slack there.
I hear you about the reviewer problem. Good luck on diplomacy. I am never very good at that bit of this job.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2022, 07:44:56 PM
One of my students sent me an email and asked if we had class today since there was nobody else in the room. Um, YES, we DID have class- in the same room we've been having it in. Were you in the wrong room?
Banging my damn head.
I can't wait for the inevitable "the building was locked and I couldn't get in" emails this Monday, a federal holiday. Usually from students who have yet to attend.
Quote from: RatGuy on January 14, 2022, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2022, 07:44:56 PM
One of my students sent me an email and asked if we had class today since there was nobody else in the room. Um, YES, we DID have class- in the same room we've been having it in. Were you in the wrong room?
Banging my damn head.
I can't wait for the inevitable "the building was locked and I couldn't get in" emails this Monday, a federal holiday. Usually from students who have yet to attend.
I'm getting the "do we have lab next week?" emails. At least they are planning ahead, but it's in the syllabus. Or even better "does my [other class] meet next week?". How would I know?
If only there was some sort of summary document for you to check, like the syllabus.
Quote from: RatGuy on January 14, 2022, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 13, 2022, 07:44:56 PM
One of my students sent me an email and asked if we had class today since there was nobody else in the room. Um, YES, we DID have class- in the same room we've been having it in. Were you in the wrong room?
I can't wait for the inevitable "the building was locked and I couldn't get in" emails this Monday, a federal holiday. Usually from students who have yet to attend.
These sound like anecdotes from Louis Sachar's Wayside School stories.
Don't know if this belongs here, and maybe this guy WANTED to be suspended, but this is either a calculated attempt at surviving or a meltdown.
Trigger warning: Bad and non-PC language.
Ferris State Prof goes off. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD5VM0j2lps&t=207s)
Quote from: Puget on January 13, 2022, 03:00:18 PM
Quote from: ergative on January 13, 2022, 01:41:38 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 13, 2022, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 13, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on January 13, 2022, 09:50:53 AM
Largely due to the if-then fallacy that seems to have been drummed into them in high school.
I always start my lecture in experimental design and the scientific 'method' with "You were lied to in elementary, middle, and high school..."
Eventually I can get them to "If you are telling me WHAT will happen - THAT is your prediction. If you tell me WHY - THAT is your hypothesis (more or less)."
Don't even get me started on the difficultly in teaching them that you start with testing your Null Hypothesis. Why? Because if you run the stats and see NO DIFFERENCE between your data sets, you are done. No need to test for if X>Y if X is no different from Y.
My problem isn't so much that, as the difficulty in getting them to understand that you can't legitimately conclude that two things are the same (well, with NHST you can't). You can find that there is insufficient evidence to conclude that they're different, but that's not the same as concluding that they're the same. And then my students turn around and design experiments with Condition A and Condition B and say 'If my hypothesis is correct, then there should be no difference in reaction time between Condition A and Condition B.' And instead of assigning the B- for understanding what a condition is and moving on, I'm somehow still writing marginal comments earnestly trying to point out everything that's wrong with that statement.
(I don't dare give up the marginal comments, because these projects are feeders for senior year capstone projects, and if I don't get sufficiently discouraging now, I run the risk of ending up with students wanting me to supervise their capstone experiments that just reuse the same project design, complete with the same problems.)
Well, as you note you can't with NHST, but you could with Bayesian analysis (or at least that the differences is smaller than whatever you would consider a meaningful difference). But I'm assuming you don't want to go there with your students.
I currently have a related head bang, not from a student (presumably) but from a reviewer, who earnestly explains that a better way (compared to the correct way we used which they don't like because of bias against certain types of models) to test our hypothesis that [predictors] are related to the shared variance among [outcome variables] is to predict one outcome variable covarying all the others and if the effect of the predictor goes away that means it was due to the shared variance among the outcome variables. I don't really know how to explain the problem with using a null effect as evidence in this way without coming across as condescending and "unresponsive to reviews". Sigh. Hopefully one of my co-authors will come up with something diplomatic.
Simpson's Paradox? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUNuvOZPmzE&ab_channel=YouTubeMovies)
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 14, 2022, 10:10:04 AM
Don't know if this belongs here, and maybe this guy WANTED to be suspended, but this is either a calculated attempt at surviving or a meltdown.
Trigger warning: Bad and non-PC language.
Ferris State Prof goes off. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD5VM0j2lps&t=207s)
Maybe since he's tenured and retiring at the end of they year, he's hoping the institution won't want to face a lawsuit but will just relieve him of teaching effectively giving him an early start to his retirement.
It is kind of funny in a "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" kind of way. Especially since he blasts essentially everybody; clueless admins and entitled students.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 14, 2022, 11:37:27 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on January 14, 2022, 10:10:04 AM
Don't know if this belongs here, and maybe this guy WANTED to be suspended, but this is either a calculated attempt at surviving or a meltdown.
Trigger warning: Bad and non-PC language.
Ferris State Prof goes off. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD5VM0j2lps&t=207s)
Maybe since he's tenured and retiring at the end of they year, he's hoping the institution won't want to face a lawsuit but will just relieve him of teaching effectively giving him an early start to his retirement.
It is kind of funny in a "I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" kind of way. Especially since he blasts essentially everybody; clueless admins and entitled students.
Well it seems like that's probably worked as he's been suspended, though the article I read didn't say if it was with pay or not. Still, there have to be less crazy ways of getting out of teaching your last semester before retirement. It seems like medical leave for mental health reasons might have been a good idea for example.
The instructions say, and I mentioned, that in general your report should be 4-7 pages. Not 34 friggin' pages! This is not due an extensive bibliographical search or to extensive analysis. It's all filler, like tables and tables of raw data (of which plots are also included) and plotting data sets in separate figures when they really ought to be on the same set of axes.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Quote from: Stockmann on January 14, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
The instructions say, and I mentioned, that in general your report should be 4-7 pages. Not 34 friggin' pages! This is not due an extensive bibliographical search or to extensive analysis. It's all filler, like tables and tables of raw data (of which plots are also included) and plotting data sets in separate figures when they really ought to be on the same set of axes.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
"Revise & Resubmit"
Quote from: Stockmann on January 14, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
The instructions say, and I mentioned, that in general your report should be 4-7 pages. Not 34 friggin' pages! This is not due an extensive bibliographical search or to extensive analysis. It's all filler, like tables and tables of raw data (of which plots are also included) and plotting data sets in separate figures when they really ought to be on the same set of axes.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Things like this remind me of the undergrad Interlibrary Loan patron who requested all several hundred results of an online search for articles made using an overly broad set of keywords, instead of trying to refine her results. I've often wondered whether that led to an immensely long and incoherent paper, or whether the panicked student figured out how to ask for help in time to prevent that.
Or they figure, "Longer is better and will get me a higher grade."
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 14, 2022, 01:25:07 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on January 14, 2022, 12:20:07 PM
The instructions say, and I mentioned, that in general your report should be 4-7 pages. Not 34 friggin' pages! This is not due an extensive bibliographical search or to extensive analysis. It's all filler, like tables and tables of raw data (of which plots are also included) and plotting data sets in separate figures when they really ought to be on the same set of axes.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
"Revise & Resubmit"
I gave them a low, albeit passing, grade for it, with the chance to resubmit.
Day 1 of Spring. Online course, which runs pretty much every semester.
First Announcement in the Course Shell (Last Friday) - How to turn off the annoying emails (detailed instructions with pictures! on setting the course shell to ONLY deliver announcements I push).
Second Announcement in Course Shell (Yesterday) - Ignore all the upcoming annoucnements UNTIL I announce you should pay attention again. (Explains why course copy will generate FALSE announcements).
Then, I copy the course and turn off/delete the inappropriate/premature announcements.
Then, I send the announcement that NOW they should pay attention to the emails.
Guess how many of 30 students have emailed me about due dates they missed because they didn't know anything was due already!
Ugh, I've got an argumentative student this semester. He actually said the words "you're wrong" three different times this semester. He said I slandered the Puritans and that I was being insensitive to Puritans specifically and Christians more broadly. He said that since I didn't attend seminary he doesn't recognize my authority to speak to any religious matters (only historical ones). He said that the "Puritans believed that the Bible said 'love thy neighbor' so they didn't treat the natives badly." I'm afraid that this kid is only going to escalate his belligerency.
For what it's worth, I told him that I wasn't passing judgment on the Puritan writers we've been reading, only explaining their beliefs and thought processes as they are illustrated by the readings. I also explained that we weren't in a religion class, and that I'm not preaching dogma. I'm only examining the texts as we understand them. But I can tell by the way he's addressing me that this semester might not go all that well.
Since he clearly knows that you're wrong, ask him where his theology degree is from?
Quote from: RatGuy on January 19, 2022, 11:42:48 AM
Ugh, I've got an argumentative student this semester. He actually said the words "you're wrong" three different times this semester. He said I slandered the Puritans and that I was being insensitive to Puritans specifically and Christians more broadly. He said that since I didn't attend seminary he doesn't recognize my authority to speak to any religious matters (only historical ones). He said that the "Puritans believed that the Bible said 'love thy neighbor' so they didn't treat the natives badly." I'm afraid that this kid is only going to escalate his belligerency.
For what it's worth, I told him that I wasn't passing judgment on the Puritan writers we've been reading, only explaining their beliefs and thought processes as they are illustrated by the readings. I also explained that we weren't in a religion class, and that I'm not preaching dogma. I'm only examining the texts as we understand them. But I can tell by the way he's addressing me that this semester might not go all that well.
Which Puritan readers and works have you been reading? This used to be part of my area of expertise. Although I have to admit to having never been to seminary.
I'd like to think that this seminarian or ex-seminarian was taught to be more polite than that there.
I've PM'd you.
M.
Quote from: apl68 on January 19, 2022, 01:17:59 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on January 19, 2022, 11:42:48 AM
Ugh, I've got an argumentative student this semester. He actually said the words "you're wrong" three different times this semester. He said I slandered the Puritans and that I was being insensitive to Puritans specifically and Christians more broadly. He said that since I didn't attend seminary he doesn't recognize my authority to speak to any religious matters (only historical ones). He said that the "Puritans believed that the Bible said 'love thy neighbor' so they didn't treat the natives badly." I'm afraid that this kid is only going to escalate his belligerency.
For what it's worth, I told him that I wasn't passing judgment on the Puritan writers we've been reading, only explaining their beliefs and thought processes as they are illustrated by the readings. I also explained that we weren't in a religion class, and that I'm not preaching dogma. I'm only examining the texts as we understand them. But I can tell by the way he's addressing me that this semester might not go all that well.
Which Puritan readers and works have you been reading? This used to be part of my area of expertise. Although I have to admit to having never been to seminary.
I'd like to think that this seminarian or ex-seminarian was taught to be more polite than that there.
So far we've covered Winthrop's "a model of Christian charity" and Rowlandson's "the sovereignty and goodness of god"
I think he'll be quite interested in the readings (primary and secondary texts) on the Massacre at Mystic
Quote from: FishProf on January 18, 2022, 08:18:22 AM
Ignore all the upcoming annoucnements UNTIL I announce you should pay attention again.
But how can they learn the latter unless they've ignored the former?
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Quote from: ergative on January 20, 2022, 03:40:34 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 18, 2022, 08:18:22 AM
Ignore all the upcoming annoucnements UNTIL I announce you should pay attention again.
But how can they learn the latter unless they've ignored the former?
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Apparently, they can't.
And I've pondered how to address this issue in the past.
I suppose that back in October, before anyone was registered, I could have done the copy and editing, but I am not thinking of the Spring semester in October.
Perhaps I need to.
I don't publish my Canvas pages until they are showtime ready. So I do all the content copying behind the scenes. And even then I keep lots of the elements unpublished until I have triple checked due dates etc. So I recommend a similar approach- does your IT people not proves the shells for you in an unpublished state? If not I would heartily request it.
Quote from: FishProf on January 18, 2022, 08:18:22 AM
Day 1 of Spring. Online course, which runs pretty much every semester.
First Announcement in the Course Shell (Last Friday) - How to turn off the annoying emails (detailed instructions with pictures! on setting the course shell to ONLY deliver announcements I push).
Second Announcement in Course Shell (Yesterday) - Ignore all the upcoming annoucnements UNTIL I announce you should pay attention again. (Explains why course copy will generate FALSE announcements).
Then, I copy the course and turn off/delete the inappropriate/premature announcements.
Then, I send the announcement that NOW they should pay attention to the emails.
Guess how many of 30 students have emailed me about due dates they missed because they didn't know anything was due already!
This sounds like a nightmare to me. Why is your program sending out inappropriate and premature announcements? Why aren't the announcements in your complete control?
This would drive me nuts and make me avoid online teaching.
When you copy over a course shell, any active announcement gets sent.
I think I found a solution, but it won't manifest until next semester.
Your institution should switch to Canvas. I copy my courses, upload the current syllabi, change the assignment dates, manually delete the announcements, review the information in student view, and then publish the course.
Dear Graduate student,
Whoever told you it doesn't hurt to ask lied to you.
Dear other student,
I'm sorry you are having internet connection problems. However, I am confused by your email that internet connection problems prevented you from attending class. This is an in-person class. We are hy-flexing for students who cannot attend that day. And yes we realize that doing so has essentially turned this course into an online course. However, we are still teaching in the classroom. If your internet is not working, just come to class.
TGIF.
Dear Freshpeeps,
I make the instruction sheets for a reason. And most of you had me in class last semester so you're used to the format and what I expect to be done for this kind of assignment. For the love of all that's holy in engineering, stop asking "I know the instructions say not to [do things], but is it okay if I do it anyway?" No! It's not! Why are you asking me if it's okay to do something the instructions say not to do? **bang! bang! bang**
All the best,
Dr. Mode
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 21, 2022, 09:29:51 AM
Dear Freshpeeps,
I make the instruction sheets for a reason. And most of you had me in class last semester so you're used to the format and what I expect to be done for this kind of assignment. For the love of all that's holy in engineering, stop asking "I know the instructions say not to [do things], but is it okay if I do it anyway?" No! It's not! Why are you asking me if it's okay to do something the instructions say not to do? **bang! bang! bang**
All the best,
Dr. Mode
I really don't want to encounter structures, machinery, etc. built by engineers and contractors who think it's okay to go ahead and do things one knows one isn't supposed to do. Thank you for insisting on this.
Quote from: apl68 on January 21, 2022, 10:17:45 AM
I really don't want to encounter structures, machinery, etc. built by engineers and contractors who think it's okay to go ahead and do things one knows one isn't supposed to do. Thank you for insisting on this.
You're most welcome. This current batch of freshpeeps (right out of high school, having spent the last year in mostly remote learning) have really been trying my patience. They're not rude or particularly demanding, they are just really clueless and if they ever want to become mechanical engineers, they need to learn that rules are rules and are meant to be followed so things don't blow up, or collapse, or catch fire, and people don't die because of it. I often tell them that the big obvious mistakes, people usually catch, the small ones, then ones they get frustrated for losing points for (It was only a tiny mistake! Why did I lose points? **sad eyes**) are the ones that cause the biggest problems. I use the KC Hyatt Regency Skywalk collapse as an example all the time. "All" they did was change the fastener, which redistributed the load. No one caught the change and/or realized it was a very bad idea, and over a hundred people died.
Show them the Silver Bridge film.
M.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 21, 2022, 10:37:28 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 21, 2022, 10:17:45 AM
I really don't want to encounter structures, machinery, etc. built by engineers and contractors who think it's okay to go ahead and do things one knows one isn't supposed to do. Thank you for insisting on this.
You're most welcome. This current batch of freshpeeps (right out of high school, having spent the last year in mostly remote learning) have really been trying my patience. They're not rude or particularly demanding, they are just really clueless and if they ever want to become mechanical engineers, they need to learn that rules are rules and are meant to be followed so things don't blow up, or collapse, or catch fire, and people don't die because of it. I often tell them that the big obvious mistakes, people usually catch, the small ones, then ones they get frustrated for losing points for (It was only a tiny mistake! Why did I lose points? **sad eyes**) are the ones that cause the biggest problems. I use the KC Hyatt Regency Skywalk collapse as an example all the time. "All" they did was change the fastener, which redistributed the load. No one caught the change and/or realized it was a very bad idea, and over a hundred people died.
Good example.
My brother decided, fresh out of high school, that he wanted to be something called an "engineer." I think he thought it sounded cool, and it was supposed to be well-paid and respected and in demand. Then he found out that it required math that went way beyond anything that we'd both gotten As on in high school. He also found out, when he moved into a dorm, that he was temperamentally unsuited to making himself get up and go to class and work on homework promptly and consistently when there was nobody looking over his shoulder making him do it all the time. He ended up flunking out of everything and losing a four-year full-ride scholarship. Evidently learning that engineering is tougher than you think is not so unusual for traditional-age freshman engineering students.
He had the brains to have done it, by the way. After a successful career as an Army NCO, he went back to school as an adult and is now working in IT. He just needed more time to get that self-discipline thing going.
A student made a comment on my end-of-term TA evals saying:
"The TA was very knowledgeable about the subject and super helpful! I guess appearances can be deceiving! :)"
It's a positive comment, but it's very difficult not to wonder what "appearances" gave the impression I wouldn't know the subject or be helpful...
Those are the kind of evals where you take the good and, as the poem says, "with a breath of comfort, blow the rest away."
M.
Quote from: mamselle on January 21, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
Those are the kind of evals where you take the good and, as the poem says, "with a breath of comfort, blow the rest away."
M.
I'm not insulted by the comment, because I don't really know what specifically they are talking about.
But it's really hard not to be curious...
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2022, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 21, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
Those are the kind of evals where you take the good and, as the poem says, "with a breath of comfort, blow the rest away."
M.
I'm not insulted by the comment, because I don't really know what specifically they are talking about.
But it's really hard not to be curious...
Hi SCR. If you are a woman, it's could be that. If you are of a different ethnicity than the student, it could be that. If you look younger (or older) than they expected you should look, it could be that. And so on.
Quote from: Morden on January 22, 2022, 11:12:11 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on January 21, 2022, 04:49:13 PM
Quote from: mamselle on January 21, 2022, 04:10:22 PM
Those are the kind of evals where you take the good and, as the poem says, "with a breath of comfort, blow the rest away."
M.
I'm not insulted by the comment, because I don't really know what specifically they are talking about.
But it's really hard not to be curious...
Hi SCR. If you are a woman, it's could be that. If you are of a different ethnicity than the student, it could be that. If you look younger (or older) than they expected you should look, it could be that. And so on.
And most likely if they're in first year. If they're in STEM and have lots of labs, by their 3rd or 4th year they'll probably have had enough TAs of various shapes and sizes to have lost those "expectations".
Student turns in four jpeg files instead of ONE pdf file (according to the instructions in the syllabus, assignment, folder, my words in class, etc.).
Everyone else followed the directions. Thank God.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 21, 2022, 09:29:51 AM
Dear Freshpeeps,
I make the instruction sheets for a reason. And most of you had me in class last semester so you're used to the format and what I expect to be done for this kind of assignment. For the love of all that's holy in engineering, stop asking "I know the instructions say not to [do things], but is it okay if I do it anyway?" No! It's not! Why are you asking me if it's okay to do something the instructions say not to do? **bang! bang! bang**
All the best,
Dr. Mode
Ouch! I'm getting some of that, and some of "just didn't read", and some of "apparently can't handle even the slightest change in the directions", and some of "just double-checking that I really wanted them to do what I said to do", and.... I should go check my emails, b/c there's probably another variation on these in there by now.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 02:08:49 PM
Student turns in four jpeg files instead of ONE pdf file (according to the instructions in the syllabus, assignment, folder, my words in class, etc.).
Everyone else followed the directions. Thank God.
You could change the settings to only allow .pdf files to upload.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 23, 2022, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 02:08:49 PM
Student turns in four jpeg files instead of ONE pdf file (according to the instructions in the syllabus, assignment, folder, my words in class, etc.).
Everyone else followed the directions. Thank God.
You could change the settings to only allow .pdf files to upload.
+1
I used to get .pages files that couldn't be opened (on Canvas) until I changed the settings to allow only word files.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 23, 2022, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 02:08:49 PM
Student turns in four jpeg files instead of ONE pdf file (according to the instructions in the syllabus, assignment, folder, my words in class, etc.).
Everyone else followed the directions. Thank God.
You could change the settings to only allow .pdf files to upload.
:D
I've been so overwhelmed, that it didn't occur to me. Just did it. Thanks for refreshing my brain.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 23, 2022, 09:12:26 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 23, 2022, 07:55:15 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2022, 02:08:49 PM
Student turns in four jpeg files instead of ONE pdf file (according to the instructions in the syllabus, assignment, folder, my words in class, etc.).
Everyone else followed the directions. Thank God.
You could change the settings to only allow .pdf files to upload.
+1
I used to get .pages files that couldn't be opened (on Canvas) until I changed the settings to allow only word files.
There's a way to do that, but I can't remember it at the moment - google is our friend here, as are Mac users who can remember to follow the directions!
Dear Fresh-peeps:
When we say "Watch the video and report your observations" we mean that. We expect responses to be related to what we present in the video. Random responses - based on a google query - look really odd. And if your google'd response does not include a citation, that is academic misconduct. This really isn't hard. If you don't want to spend 6 minutes watching the video, we provide a pdf with stills of the most important parts of the video (i.e., those things we ask questions about). That is much less time consuming than going through the academic misconduct process at this school.
Signed.
Prof the-first-thing-that-comes-up-in-my-rate-my-professor-profile-is-that-I-will-file-academic-misconduct-on-almost-anything
Just. Go. Through. The. Fucking. Module. In. Order.
STOP emailing me and telling me that you can't access y. Yes you are right, and IN the picture that you sent me it says you have to do x first and gives you a clickable fucking link.
Dear anxious student,
Yes, the project is a signficant portion of your grade in this class. I understand that it is scary to have so much weight on an open-ended project (i.e., you have some choices). However, sending me an email asking what each of the learning outcomes means is a bit too much. These are words that have common usage in the English language. If they still don't make sense 10 weeks from now, after you have completed one of the specified projects, then we can talk. But, for now, please just use your best understanding of what these words might possibly mean in any reasonable context.
Signed.
Prof It-really-isn't-that-hard
Dear Anxious student number 2,
Please stop sending me emails asking if X is ok, when possible project X is described *exactly that way* in the list of possible projects for this class.
Signed.
Prof. Yes-it-really-isn't-that-hard
Dear graduate student,
Did you seriously send me an email telling me that you would not be able to turn in your project until 2 weeks after the due date and expect that would be OK? Let's see, at a 10% grade penalty per day, that would be -140% to start. But I'll be nice and just assign a 0.
I know we are encouraged to be flexible but sheesh.
Dear TA,
You showed up late to teach your lab, never picked up your keys, emailed me after class started to ask how to use the projector (which you don't need to use), and didn't notice that you had an EXTRA STUDENT until halfway through class. I'm concerned. As in, how on earth did you make it into graduate school?!?
Bang! Bang! Bang!
Digital natives, my rear end! Stu is almost 4 weeks late getting started on the discussion activity because they couldn't get into the online platform (supplementary to our LMS). Multiple un-returned emails and missed appointment later I finally get Stu on video call to see if I can help. All it took was trying a different browser.
We are past the drop deadline. 7 of 14 students haven't taken the syllabus quiz yet, which means they cannot do any of the work. Three weeks in and they have done nothing (and yes, this is the same class I posted about in student emails).
Note: If they had dropped before the deadline, they would not be on my roster.
They say they want online courses, but do they really?
Statsgeek, it's issues like that that made me drop all supplemental online platforms. They are great in theory, but the reality of getting everyone registered and logged in is just too much. My start of the semester is now much easier for everyone, even if it means I need to create some extra assignments myself.
Some supplementary platforms have the ability to integrate into your existing LMS -- how smooth the integration is may be another issue. But possibly worth checking out.
I did the independent supplementary thing once a couple of years ago. The supplementary resources were actually pretty good. But teaching the same course this semester, I decided against using it again. I will wait until the textbook publisher that does the platform gives me more incentive.
Quote from: FishProf on February 02, 2022, 08:12:38 AM
We are past the drop deadline. 7 of 14 students haven't taken the syllabus quiz yet, which means they cannot do any of the work. Three weeks in and they have done nothing (and yes, this is the same class I posted about in student emails).
Note: If they had dropped before the deadline, they would not be on my roster.
They say they want online courses, but do they really?
They want the convenience of having all the time in the world to not get around to doing the work.
My vent is that my students really don't understand that "online" does not necessarily mean "no due dates". The due dates are IN THE SYLLABUS. So is the policy on late work. No, I will not create an "alternative assignment" or "makeup assignment" - that's more work for me. No, I won't make an opportunity for "extra credit points" when you are not bothering to complete the already available normal credit points.
Now, a student has to really try to fail my classes. But I'm not dragging anyone kicking and screaming towards passing. Life is full of choices, choices have consequences.
[/quote]
They want the convenience of having all the time in the world to not get around to doing the work.
My vent is that my students really don't understand that "online" does not necessarily mean "no due dates". The due dates are IN THE SYLLABUS. So is the policy on late work. No, I will not create an "alternative assignment" or "makeup assignment" - that's more work for me. No, I won't make an opportunity for "extra credit points" when you are not bothering to complete the already available normal credit points.
Now, a student has to really try to fail my classes. But I'm not dragging anyone kicking and screaming towards passing. Life is full of choices, choices have consequences.
[/quote]
My hybrid students are already showing some signs of this too, during the second week of class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:41:44 PM
They want the convenience of having all the time in the world to not get around to doing the work.
This. So Much This.
I changed this class a few years ago to do away with a series of deadlines. That was so much work for me - dealing with the "I didn't know" emails. But now, I'm dealing with the 'doing no work until may, then begging for an extension b/c "This is my last class to graduate and/or I am very serious about my school work" emails'.
Response: "No, it isn't - you need one more, perhaps this one in Summer" OR "Clearly, you are not."
Quote from: FishProf on February 03, 2022, 07:57:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:41:44 PM
They want the convenience of having all the time in the world to not get around to doing the work.
This. So Much This.
I changed this class a few years ago to do away with a series of deadlines. That was so much work for me - dealing with the "I didn't know" emails. But now, I'm dealing with the 'doing no work until may, then begging for an extension b/c "This is my last class to graduate and/or I am very serious about my school work" emails'.
Several years ago, the university decided to make the final drop date for courses the last day of term. Some profs thought it would help since there wouldn't be pressure to get mid-terms written and graded before the drop date. However, there was so much end of term whining, (or whining by students who failed a course they forgot they were enrolled in), that they reverted back after only a year or two.
Something about giving people more rope to hang themselves.....
Quote from: FishProf on February 03, 2022, 07:57:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 02, 2022, 02:41:44 PM
They want the convenience of having all the time in the world to not get around to doing the work.
This. So Much This.
I changed this class a few years ago to do away with a series of deadlines. That was so much work for me - dealing with the "I didn't know" emails. But now, I'm dealing with the 'doing no work until may, then begging for an extension b/c "This is my last class to graduate and/or I am very serious about my school work" emails'.
Response: "No, it isn't - you need one more, perhaps this one in Summer" OR "Clearly, you are not."
FishProf - if none of the work is required unil May, how do you ensure that the students have meaningful peer-to-peer interactions, as is required (per my University's admin people) for accreditation purposes of online courses? My adminicritters are very very adamant that my students must engage with each other, not just me, for my asynchronous online course to count as normal college credit. I take the easy way out on this - weekly discussion questions - but it does mean that there is weekly work due in my class. For pedagogical reasons - and sanity in terms of grading workload - I also require other work to be handed in weekly, so it is not just discussion posts. But my query to you is how you get around the peer-to-peer interactions requirement given your class design?
I do hear you about the students who claim to be very serious about their school work, but have yet to hand anything in...
Ha! Standards for Online Courses? Not at FishProfU
I just looked and could find NOTHING in my accreditation agency about required Peer-to-peer interactions in Online classes (or any other, for that matter).
Quote from: FishProf on February 03, 2022, 11:51:10 AM
I just looked and could find NOTHING in my accreditation agency about required Peer-to-peer interactions in Online classes (or any other, for that matter).
Interesting! When I was designing my online course, I was informed that peer-to-peer interactions were critical to distinguish an accredited online course and a correspondence course (the latter of which is not eligible for federal financial aid). They also said that peer-to-peer was helpful for building student community and other pedagogical reasons, most of which I viewed as admin-speak with the expected null content. Nonetheless, I dutifully require my non-science gen ed students to post weekly discussions in my large enrollment 100-level science course. I have managed to find good discussion topics that tie our class material to their daily lives/potential career paths, but it is not something I would have included in the course design by choice.
I recall from the old forum that this was an issue in Accounting courses; Octoprof in particular was pointing out that there were many correspondence courses that would not qualify for financial aid on these grounds.
I wonder if it could vary by region; i.e., different regional accreditation boards pay/paid attention to it in different ways?
M.
QuoteI was informed that peer-to-peer interactions were critical to distinguish an accredited online course and a correspondence course (the latter of which is not eligible for federal financial aid).
Any argument that justifies and helps preserve the cartel is welcome -- to the cartel members.
Quote from: dismalist on February 03, 2022, 12:14:34 PM
QuoteI was informed that peer-to-peer interactions were critical to distinguish an accredited online course and a correspondence course (the latter of which is not eligible for federal financial aid).
Any argument that justifies and helps preserve the cartel is welcome -- to the cartel members.
On the other hand, this was one of my arguments to the dean that an online class required *more* resources than a similar in person class. For example, I can do think-pair-share with 200 in person students by letting them talk with each other for a few minutes while I check in with a handful of groups in real time and then have a class-wide discussion. Total time, perhaps 10 minutes. A similar exercise done with an online class requires me to read (and grade...since online students will not do anything unless points are associated with the activity...) 200 responses, which takes much more than 10 minutes!
I designed my course pre-COVID, so it is possible that the requirements have been relaxed substantially following the mass online migration in Spring 2020.
This may not work for other reasons, but for the think-pair-share component, if you had a capable TA (conjectural, I realize) who knew how to set up breakout rooms in advance (also conjectural) and assign them so they could put, if not 2, then maybe 4 students in each breakout room, that might be do-able.
They could report back by the chat, within a few moments, the TA could survey the chat notes and bump up the good ones to you for positive reinforcement, and then you could be on your way.
In a perfect Zoom-world, of course--maybe....
M.
Yes, the breakout rooms can mimic some aspects of an in person class. However, my online class is asynchronous, so no zooming...
Ah, got it.
Oh, well...
;--}
M.
I think there's definitely some variability amongst accreditors.
We were told that we needed to demonstrate regular, substantive interaction, but although we were strongly encouraged to include peer-to-peer it was not required.
That's a damn good thing because I was not looking forward to trying to cajole remedial algebra students into posting and responding on discussion boards.
Oh, dear.
Yes, things like "the existential value of using the letter n, m, and x over the use of a, b, and c in equation examples is highly overrated" might be a bit beyond them...
M.
Quote from: kiana on February 03, 2022, 02:20:05 PM
I think there's definitely some variability amongst accreditors.
We were told that we needed to demonstrate regular, substantive interaction, but although we were strongly encouraged to include peer-to-peer it was not required.
That's a damn good thing because I was not looking forward to trying to cajole remedial algebra students into posting and responding on discussion boards.
That makes sense. The correspondence course thing is weird and outdated and should be retired as a comparison, but the idea is that it was a format that had content delivery by an instructor and evaluation of student work, but not regular interaction. I suppose you could have had students mailing off reflection posts every week and the instructor mailing back comments, but that would have been logistically difficult, time consuming and inefficient.
It makes sense to say that an online class can't just be recorded lectures students watch, readings they are assigned and then exams with the added benefit that you can email the professor.
Quote from: Caracal on February 04, 2022, 06:02:50 AM
It makes sense to say that an online class can't just be recorded lectures students watch, readings they are assigned and then exams with the added benefit that you can email the professor.
Why does that make sense? For some courses (the algebra example above), the benefit of peer-to-peer interaction isn't obvious. It would be better (IMO) to not have the token interaction if it is only there to check an accreditation box.
One size fits all, usually doesn't.
Not despair, but funny enough to post:
Student submitted a short (1000 word) essay in single-spaced Arial. It has a separate works cited page containing one text (acceptable for this assignment) and a separate title page. So although the entirety of the essay is crammed onto 1.5 pages, the whole PDF is 4 pages. It feels so incongruous to see the four pages in a row.
AR.
Quote from: FishProf on February 04, 2022, 07:13:09 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 04, 2022, 06:02:50 AM
It makes sense to say that an online class can't just be recorded lectures students watch, readings they are assigned and then exams with the added benefit that you can email the professor.
Why does that make sense? For some courses (the algebra example above), the benefit of peer-to-peer interaction isn't obvious. It would be better (IMO) to not have the token interaction if it is only there to check an accreditation box.
One size fits all, usually doesn't.
I think that there is middle ground to be had.
We don't really have peer-to-peer interaction in the algebra classes, but there is plenty of professor-to-student interaction (one of the reasons even the online algebra classes are small at our CC). Students turn in something that is handwritten for feedback at least twice a week and the professor reads/comments. That's still interaction and it's a long way from a correspondence course.
Quote from: kiana on February 05, 2022, 09:27:34 AM
We don't really have peer-to-peer interaction in the algebra classes, but there is plenty of professor-to-student interaction (one of the reasons even the online algebra classes are small at our CC).
Out of curiosity, what does your admin consider small? I have an online writing-intensive course with a 25 cap. It's killing me.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 01, 2022, 10:16:47 AM
Dear TA,
You showed up late to teach your lab, never picked up your keys, emailed me after class started to ask how to use the projector (which you don't need to use), and didn't notice that you had an EXTRA STUDENT until halfway through class. I'm concerned. As in, how on earth did you make it into graduate school?!?
Bang! Bang! Bang!
And the finally noticed the fact that they had an extra student AFTER finishing grading. Thankfully, it's a student who just went to class on the wrong day, and not a student who was taking another class who got lost (it's happened before).
Quote from: lilyb on February 05, 2022, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: kiana on February 05, 2022, 09:27:34 AM
We don't really have peer-to-peer interaction in the algebra classes, but there is plenty of professor-to-student interaction (one of the reasons even the online algebra classes are small at our CC).
Out of curiosity, what does your admin consider small? I have an online writing-intensive course with a 25 cap. It's killing me.
20 in developmental, 25 in credit-bearing.
But these are not writing-intensive classes. I have assigned papers in my liberal arts classes and those take FOREVER to grade.
I am aware of the various web sites that sell papers, copies of assignments, etc. I have done my due diligence of googling my class name, number, etc and tried to convince these sites to remove my copyrighted content.
Today, however, a student informed me that she has always signed up for the GroupMe chats to which she has received an invitation (i.e., all of her classes since she started at this university). The invites are apparently based on the class rosters, which students can see in our LMS. Students are "sharing" their work on the assignments for my class in the GroupMe chats. While I actually want students to collaborate (building connections is a good thing, for a large enrollment online Gen Ed class...), this sounds like a place where they just copy each others work. Yet another example of the digital era making cheating a household name. Bang. Bang. Bang.
Lord have mercy!
Never ask introductory Astronomy students to do any kind of Math. It makes their heads explode.
Apparently, this student wanted to take an average of the average and was confused about how to do it. Yes, they do not know how to calculate averages. Combine this with a run-on sentence that is about a paragraph long and now I have an headache.
<snark warning>
What?!!! You use math in your astrology classes?
</snark>
My university has a finite math/calculus requirement for all undergrads, but many of my Gen Ed science students cannot do simple algebra. I do not know how they managed to pass their high school math classes, let alone the one they need to pass to graduate college.
Quote from: arcturus on February 07, 2022, 07:48:24 PM
<snark warning>
What?!!! You use math in your astrology classes?
</snark>
My university has a finite math/calculus requirement for all undergrads, but many of my Gen Ed science students cannot do simple algebra. I do not know how they managed to pass their high school math classes, let alone the one they need to pass to graduate college.
:D
I've had grown ass people call my Astronomy class an 'Astrology' class. Like do they think I have a crystal ball in my pocket (or I'm just happy to see them)? Maybe we'll do some phrenology too (good excuse to whack someone on the head?). Today, we will talk about that mysterious constellation in the Zodiac- Ophiuchus. When we talked about that in class, a few students looked a little panicked and wanted to know if their 'signs' would change.
YES! You too can learn how to read the Future! Take my class. :D
On a more serious note, it is sad that a lot of these kids cannot do a simple percentage or average. So much Math anxiety and shame about it...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 07, 2022, 07:21:56 PM
Lord have mercy!
Never ask introductory Astronomy students to do any kind of Math. It makes their heads explode.
Apparently, this student wanted to take an average of the average and was confused about how to do it. Yes, they do not know how to calculate averages. Combine this with a run-on sentence that is about a paragraph long and now I have an headache.
Yep. The average of 4 and 5 is apparently 6.5.
Quote from: kiana on February 08, 2022, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 07, 2022, 07:21:56 PM
Lord have mercy!
Never ask introductory Astronomy students to do any kind of Math. It makes their heads explode.
Apparently, this student wanted to take an average of the average and was confused about how to do it. Yes, they do not know how to calculate averages. Combine this with a run-on sentence that is about a paragraph long and now I have an headache.
Yep. The average of 4 and 5 is apparently 6.5.
I imagine this student is from Lake Wobegone.
Nah, then the average would be 3.5.
Quote from: kiana on February 08, 2022, 08:13:01 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 07, 2022, 07:21:56 PM
Lord have mercy!
Never ask introductory Astronomy students to do any kind of Math. It makes their heads explode.
Apparently, this student wanted to take an average of the average and was confused about how to do it. Yes, they do not know how to calculate averages. Combine this with a run-on sentence that is about a paragraph long and now I have an headache.
Yep. The average of 4 and 5 is apparently 6.5.
Well, there has been an awful lot of inflation lately. The student's trying to factor that in.
I have a new research student in my lab. Since the pandemic I have not been able to screen these students based on recommendations from lab instructors. It's showing.
This one is totally incapable of recall from one day to the next. She couldn't even remember the location (two doors down the hall!) of the primary piece of equipment that she's learning how to use. This after the entire lab walked over to see it together. And the printed protocol for the kit assay she's doing may as well be in ancient Sanskrit.
I'm now revising my expectations for this project down to zero.
Stu gets upset with me because stu didn't know that the graph needed to be turned in with the lab report. Um, why did I ask you to do the graph?- for fun? Ok, that could be a possibility, but the dropbox explicitly states that you need to attach your graph to the lab report. Oh, and it's in the syllabus and I mentioned it in lab... I could go on...
Sheesh!!!
The line at 2:33, and the section from there to about 2:55 seem to summarize some of the issues instructors also face these days....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM3GWjxIf2w
M.
We are 20 minutes into an exam. Instructions have been given out. Everyone is quietly puttering away. One student gets up and approaches me.
Stu Dent: "How much time left is there to take the exam?"
The student is literally standing 4 feet from a sign on the chalkboard stating when the exam is over. And a wall clock is above it and showing the correct time. Epic Fail #1. Can't Follow Child-Level Time Keeping.
Me: Pointing to sign on chalkboard. "You have until blah blah blah time to finish."
Stu Dent: "So how much time left is there to take the exam?" Epic Fail #2. Can't Follow Child-Level Time Keeping Even if Directly Prompted.
Me: Assuming that student cannot read an analog clock. "Well, it is blah blah time right now."
Stu Dent: "So how much time is left to take the exam?" Epic Fail #3. Inability to perform 3rd grade level subtraction.
Me: "If it's blah blah time right now, and you have until blah blah time to finish, then you've got blah blah minutes left."
Stu Dent: "Okay. Cool. Can I go to the bathroom?"
Perhaps this student's blood flow to the brain was redirected into bladder muscles.
Quote from: Aster on February 09, 2022, 07:27:57 AM
We are 20 minutes into an exam. Instructions have been given out. Everyone is quietly puttering away. One student gets up and approaches me.
Stu Dent: "How much time left is there to take the exam?"
The student is literally standing 4 feet from a sign on the chalkboard stating when the exam is over. And a wall clock is above it and showing the correct time. Epic Fail #1. Can't Follow Child-Level Time Keeping.
Me: Pointing to sign on chalkboard. "You have until blah blah blah time to finish."
Stu Dent: "So how much time left is there to take the exam?" Epic Fail #2. Can't Follow Child-Level Time Keeping Even if Directly Prompted.
Me: Assuming that student cannot read an analog clock. "Well, it is blah blah time right now."
Stu Dent: "So how much time is left to take the exam?" Epic Fail #3. Inability to perform 3rd grade level subtraction.
Me: "If it's blah blah time right now, and you have until blah blah time to finish, then you've got blah blah minutes left."
Stu Dent: "Okay. Cool. Can I go to the bathroom?"
Perhaps this student's blood flow to the brain was redirected into bladder muscles.
And this student
can is permitted to drive and use power tools.
I don't think I've ever encountered this problem before, and I don't think there's much I can do about it, so this may be more of a vent than anything. I've got a core group of students who are also taking another class. For some reason, they absolutely despise this other class and because it just happens to be held an hour before our session, they are coming in hot.
Not only is it taking some time and energy to overcome the grumpy attitudes so that we can engage positively in our discussion topics for the day, they have also taken to increasingly gossiping and grousing about the other instructor openly, which I don't care for. I know they've talked to the other instructor about their concerns, and I also know at least one of them has shared those concerns with our Department Head as well. I'd prefer to stay completely out of it, but their experience in this other class is becoming increasingly disruptive to my class. Our Department Head is excellent and now that the students have spoken with them, I'm optimistic things may improve, but it is just one more thing that is making this Winter term even more unbearable than usual.
Istiblennius, my suggestions come with a lot of caveats. IF you think these are fairly mature students, I might pull them aside after class and politely mention that their mood is impacting discussions. BUT I would only do that if you think you can avoid getting pulled into things and they would be receptive. No matter what, I would actively avoid making any commentary about other faculty members.
If not, I might just start a few classes with a short mindfulness activity to get everyone to refocus on the topic of your class. A short reflective writing can also work to get them to focus, or even just a fun YouTube clip that is on topic.
I do have some opening activities we usually do to get on track and those always help with the transition into classtime. Usually those are lightweight, but a more intentional metacognitive focus activity might make a difference as they have been getting more disgruntled.
Definitely have no interest in getting sucked into this quagmire. Last week, when I reminded them I was *right there* as they started to gossip, they kind of hemmed and hawed and then started griping some more. I suggested that while it is not possible to control how another person responds to you, you can certainly control your response and to focus on that, and that they should share their concerns directly with their instructor and then with the department head in that order.
Depending on the feeling overall, I might even take a stern tone with them for a moment and say something like, "Do you realize that part of your job as a student is to learn to learn from everyone, and whenever you block that learning by focusing on negative rather than positive inputs from an instructor, you are not doing your job?"
If the person is really egregiously bad, unnecessarily punitive, or even abusive, that's a different issue.
But if it's a matter of style or approach, they might do well with a reminder that real-world bosses, advanced class instructors, and others, may have more to offer than their tone or manner suggests, and the students need to think about that.
If it happened again, I'd probably say something like, "If this is such a distraction you can't pay attention in class, take it outside, and come back when you're ready to concentrate."
The rest of the class deserves not to be interrupted, after all.
M.
Oof, that sort of negative energy can really disrupt a class. Maybe try something that acknowledges their feelings & give them a bit of a transition?
You are upset.
You can be upset.
Let's take 2 minutes to write down everything that you are upset about.
Now, take that paper & crumple it up & throw it away.
Take a few deep breaths. [inhale 1, 2, 3, 4,; exhale 1, 2, 3, 4]
OK, so for today's class . . .
I would just say, "Back on topic. Now, as we saw last week..."
Can you briefly acknowledge, without getting involved, that the students are stressed/annoyed, and then tell them that learning to compartmentalize is a very useful professional skill? They will almost certainly have other instances in their lives in which they will need to transition between a tense/difficult situation and another unrelated activity with very little time to decompress. I would give them a few strategies for this decompression (including the excellent ones already on this thread) and then ask them to practice professionalism.
I've also used, "I completely understand why you are frustrated, and if you need to escalate this, you should talk to [appropriate admin, which it sounds as if they already have]. At this time, the school is paying me to teach you and your classmates [this class], and you and they are paying to receive this instruction, so I want to make sure I satisfy that obligation. Let's switch gears and talk about . . ."
AR.
If you have a group activity, I would also just split them up. Unless they are gossiping to each other fully across the room!
Lots of helpful feedback (and affirmations since the majority of suggestions align with what I'm already doing).
With our department head now contacted by a student, I suspect this is going to move on like the passing cloud that it is. Our department head is really good at hearing students and defusing situations, while not undermining instructors.
Knowing the students and instructor involved, it's a perfect storm of an instructor who does challenge students in positive ways, but is also themselves pretty disorganized so that can feel like a double standard (think no accommodations for late work from a person who is is themselves always late with pretty much everything).
Students, a positive COVID test is not a "get out of all assignments free" card.
One, vaccinated & asymptomatic folks aren't even required to isolate. It's recommended, but only for 5 days.
Two, I have created online versions of the assignments. You can still do them.
Three, I am not psychic. If you don't tell me you were absent AND you don't do the online assignment, the TA will just put a 0 in the grade book and call it done.
The students in my literature survey course have a paper due today; they've known about it for weeks and I ask in every class if there are questions I can answer about it. I got an email at 2:00 this morning from a student asking what I mean by saying that they can write about any reading on the syllabus — does that mean the two anthologies we're using as textbooks?
This is an upper-level course with students who should know how to read a syllabus and to budget their time to work on assignments...
Dear students,
When you make an online appointment to look at an issue within [software], please have [software] pulled up on your computer when you log into the appointment. Otherwise, you're just wasting both of our time.
Quote from: statsgeek on February 17, 2022, 05:30:07 AM
Dear students,
When you make an online appointment to look at an issue within [software], please have [software] pulled up on your computer when you log into the appointment. Otherwise, you're just wasting both of our time.
Wait...do you mean they should open [software] and not just a Google doc with screenshots from [software]?
Quote from: Biologist_ on February 17, 2022, 10:53:48 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on February 17, 2022, 05:30:07 AM
Dear students,
When you make an online appointment to look at an issue within [software], please have [software] pulled up on your computer when you log into the appointment. Otherwise, you're just wasting both of our time.
Wait...do you mean they should open [software] and not just a Google doc with screenshots from [software]?
Blurry cell phone shots of their computer screen displaying [software] but never the actual issues.
I had an appointment with my foot doctor this morning. I told my TR class that I'd be holding class via Teams today, even if the forecast storm would actually materialize, because we're already a week behind the schedule.
Got a text at 6:45 a.m.: school will be closed.
Sent a reminder email to my class about the lecture at 7:30--"log in if you want, or watch the recording later."
At 11, a couple signed in, and I recorded the entire lecture (about plagiarism avoidance and incorporating info effectively--which we should have been done with already last week).
At 12:25, I went to post the link to the recording in Blackboard, and Teams said, "There was an error in Teams and your meeting recording has not been processed."
So much for being student-centered, taking time on a day off to actually teach, etc. I should've just gone back to bed (esp. since the doc's office called and cancelled the appointment).
Thunk-thunk-THUD!
Ye-ow.
Sending sympathetic vibes your way.
M.
Foxtrot fun: https://www.gocomics.com/foxtrotclassics/2022/02/22
Stu enrolled in an online course writes in hu's essay:
Quote
Online courses can cause students to be less successful in their classes and do
not provide students with an overall college experience.
Stu, remind me again--why are you enrolled in an online course? Stu misses deadlines and seems to think that deadlines are optional because assignments can be sent as email attachments, right? Stu also thinks that discussion board assignments are optional, despite getting low or zero scores for the same. Aargh!!!
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 22, 2022, 03:47:54 PM
Stu enrolled in an online course writes in hu's essay:
Quote
Online courses can cause students to be less successful in their classes and do
not provide students with an overall college experience.
Stu, remind me again--why are you enrolled in an online course? Stu misses deadlines and seems to think that deadlines are optional because assignments can be sent as email attachments, right? Stu also thinks that discussion board assignments are optional, despite getting low or zero scores for the same. Aargh!!!
I feel you on this.
I just got an email from an online student asking if the Midterm exam is open notes (this is not the first one I've received about open notes either). I have in bolded capital letters that the Midterm is closed book and no open notes in the testing rules (provided BEFORE the exam) and on the exam itself. Does anyone read the damn testing rules?
I swear I feel like I'm talking to a wall with this class. When I think of the number of times I have posted announcements and emailed them about labs, etc. and they STILL ask these questions.
And one of my lab TAs just admitted that they "might have" turned off a piece of lab equipment that was essential to the protocol last week. They want to know how to grade their students (how many points to subtract for no [baskets]).
Better to tell me late than never, we can have students share data across sections, but why on earth do you think it's fair to subtract points when YOU guaranteed they would get no data?
Stu makes it abundantly clear that Stu thinks that GE courses are a waste of time and money. Stu: you may prefer sleeping during class but you are still required to buy and read the textbook and take your own notes rather than expect me to provide them. And I pray that your future coworkers in the field of aerospace engineering are able to make sense of your word salads so that airplanes don't fall from the sky.
I got a classic yesterday: "I don't know why I have to learn this. I'm never gonna need this".
Was I teaching differential equations? Archaic Urdu Poetry? How to rebuild a steam locomotive?
Nope. Viruses, Immune systems, and vaccines.
Why would ANYONE, much less a college student need to know anything about these topics?
SRSLY. GenEds are so stupid.
Quote from: FishProf on February 24, 2022, 04:47:29 AM
I got a classic yesterday: "I don't know why I have to learn this. I'm never gonna need this".
Was I teaching differential equations? Archaic Urdu Poetry? How to rebuild a steam locomotive?
Nope. Viruses, Immune systems, and vaccines.
Why would ANYONE, much less a college student need to know anything about these topics?
SRSLY. GenEds are so stupid.
I usually don't even respond to these messages. They go into my trash bin.
But when I do respond, it's something like... "College is a personal choice, that may or may not be suitable for everyone."
Or, "You enrolled in this course, therefore you DO have to learn it."
That student just seems to be performing dumbness as a method of voicing annoyance at being a student.
But there is a more general issue of when it is useful to explain the relevance of material. Sometimes I teach very abstract stuff and I do work at showing the relevance.
Warning, math-related head banging:
NO! NO! NO!
A regression analysis does not indicate causation. How many times do I have to say this? Your research design determines if you can make causal inference. Not the statistic you use. I swear I have said this eleventy billion times in the last 7 weeks. Why do you all not understand this at this point in the class?
And those of you who do not know the difference between a one-sample and independent sample t-test? GAH! The test was open-book! Seriously! It's t-testing! This is not that hard people!
I now return you to your non math-related banging.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on February 24, 2022, 08:57:34 AM
Warning, math-related head banging:
NO! NO! NO!
A regression analysis does not indicate causation.
What do you mean? It has "independent" and "DEPENDENT" variables right there!!!!
Dear colleague,
You can't accuse students of cheating when you don't bother to write your own exam questions and are shocked, shocked I say, to learn that the questions from the textbook/quizlet/AP study help/etc you used are posted online. Doesn't mean our students posted them. Doesn't mean our students looked at them during the exam. Not my problem to fix for you. But you could always, you know, write your own d@mn exam questions.
Quote from: downer on February 24, 2022, 07:01:59 AM
That student just seems to be performing dumbness as a method of voicing annoyance at being a student.
But there is a more general issue of when it is useful to explain the relevance of material. Sometimes I teach very abstract stuff and I do work at showing the relevance.
Now I'm wondering if there is a way a student can directly ask "why do I need to know this?" as a polite question and not a whining complaint?
Even said in a polite tone and without the overconfident ignorance of statements like "I'll never need this." it seems like the question itself can still come across as rude.
How could a student convey the message "I assume the prof is covering this topic for a good reason, but I don't see what that reason is and I wish someone would explain it to me?"
I think the closest I heard was a student saying "um...not to be rude, but what is the point of memorizing all these details when in the real world we can look things up?" Don't remember the prof's answer but do remember student seemed satisfied with it.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 24, 2022, 09:15:19 AM
Quote from: downer on February 24, 2022, 07:01:59 AM
That student just seems to be performing dumbness as a method of voicing annoyance at being a student.
But there is a more general issue of when it is useful to explain the relevance of material. Sometimes I teach very abstract stuff and I do work at showing the relevance.
Now I'm wondering if there is a way a student can directly ask "why do I need to know this?" as a polite question and not a whining complaint?
Even said in a polite tone and without the overconfident ignorance of statements like "I'll never need this." it seems like the question itself can still come across as rude.
How could a student convey the message "I assume the prof is covering this topic for a good reason, but I don't see what that reason is and I wish someone would explain it to me?"
I think the closest I heard was a student saying "um...not to be rude, but what is the point of memorizing all these details when in the real world we can look things up?" Don't remember the prof's answer but do remember student seemed satisfied with it.
If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the
idea even makes sense. (If a student
chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)
In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 24, 2022, 09:54:34 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 24, 2022, 09:15:19 AM
Quote from: downer on February 24, 2022, 07:01:59 AM
That student just seems to be performing dumbness as a method of voicing annoyance at being a student.
But there is a more general issue of when it is useful to explain the relevance of material. Sometimes I teach very abstract stuff and I do work at showing the relevance.
Now I'm wondering if there is a way a student can directly ask "why do I need to know this?" as a polite question and not a whining complaint?
Even said in a polite tone and without the overconfident ignorance of statements like "I'll never need this." it seems like the question itself can still come across as rude.
How could a student convey the message "I assume the prof is covering this topic for a good reason, but I don't see what that reason is and I wish someone would explain it to me?"
I think the closest I heard was a student saying "um...not to be rude, but what is the point of memorizing all these details when in the real world we can look things up?" Don't remember the prof's answer but do remember student seemed satisfied with it.
If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense. (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)
In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"
That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 24, 2022, 10:08:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 24, 2022, 09:54:34 AM
If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense. (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)
In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"
That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...
Not necessarily. Say there is an elective course on polling, which covers design of surveys, sampling, analysis, etc. It could appeal to (at least) poli sci students, math/stats students, business students, sociology or psychology students. (It could also be of interest to students in education, planning, or lots of other things where people may want to take surveys.)
In saying "Why are you taking the course?", it reflects the fact that all kinds of possible topics would be of interest to possibly only a subset of the students. (eg. Mathematical details of the analysis might only interest math/stats students, while details about sampling may not interest some students who are interested in surveying "captive audiences", where everyone in the population will be included.)
So depending on why the student took the course, the prof could admit that for this
particular student, this
specific topic isn't going to be very important
for their interest. Nevertheless the student still may be responsible for it on tests, assignments, etc.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 24, 2022, 10:20:17 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on February 24, 2022, 10:08:28 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 24, 2022, 09:54:34 AM
If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense. (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)
In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"
That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...
Not necessarily. Say there is an elective course on polling, which covers design of surveys, sampling, analysis, etc. It could appeal to (at least) poli sci students, math/stats students, business students, sociology or psychology students. (It could also be of interest to students in education, planning, or lots of other things where people may want to take surveys.)
In saying "Why are you taking the course?", it reflects the fact that all kinds of possible topics would be of interest to possibly only a subset of the students. (eg. Mathematical details of the analysis might only interest math/stats students, while details about sampling may not interest some students who are interested in surveying "captive audiences", where everyone in the population will be included.)
So depending on why the student took the course, the prof could admit that for this particular student, this specific topic isn't going to be very important for their interest. Nevertheless the student still may be responsible for it on tests, assignments, etc.
Sure, context matters.
Assuming the student's question is genuine (and not a thinly veiled complaint), it could still be educational for them to learn how specific topics are relevant to other interests besides their own.
In my experience, the vast majority of students who toss out the "this isn't relevant to me" complaint are 1st year students, a large proportion of which I'll never see at a graduation because they dropped out of college.
And that is fine. College is not for everyone. There are many fine employment opportunities in the world for people who only desire vocational and/or direct application-based knowledge.
Also in my experience, there is a vast difference between the types of students who complain about the relevancy of their curriculum, vs. the types of students who earnestly ask questions about the application of their curriculum.
The complaining students really don't give a crap. They're usually C-students at best, but more commonly are D and F students. The smarter ones take my advice, drop the class early, and either change majors or reevaluate their professional goals. But most of them are not that smart and will get the D or F.
The ones who earnestly inquire about curricula relevancy rarely ever make the inquiry during class time. They will ask during office hours, they'll be polite about it, they'll ask follow-up questions and also often segue directly into an academic advising session.
Quote from: Aster on February 24, 2022, 10:53:03 AM
In my experience, the vast majority of students who toss out the "this isn't relevant to me" complaint are 1st year students, a large proportion of which I'll never see at a graduation because they dropped out of college.
And that is fine. College is not for everyone. There are many fine employment opportunities in the world for people who only desire vocational and/or direct application-based knowledge.
Also in my experience, there is a vast difference between the types of students who complain about the relevancy of their curriculum, vs. the types of students who earnestly ask questions about the application of their curriculum.
The complaining students really don't give a crap. They're usually C-students at best, but more commonly are D and F students. The smarter ones take my advice, drop the class early, and either change majors or reevaluate their professional goals. But most of them are not that smart and will get the D or F.
The ones who earnestly inquire about curricula relevancy rarely ever make the inquiry during class time. They will ask during office hours, they'll be polite about it, they'll ask follow-up questions and also often segue directly into an academic advising session.
The multiple "head-desks" we've had just now involving students who are uninterested in going to the effort to study anything that they can't immediately see the use for, or stuff they think they could just easily "look up," points up the way so many college students have no interest in, or love for, learning in general. At least not the sort that college is supposed to provide. I guess there's not much sense in trying to force them through college if it's not what they really want.
It could perhaps be helpful for profs teaching things that aren't as obviously "relevant" to address areas of relevance that students might not be aware of already.
Quote from: apl68 on February 24, 2022, 11:24:09 AM
It could perhaps be helpful for profs teaching things that aren't as obviously "relevant" to address areas of relevance that students might not be aware of already.
Yeah.
At selective universities, there would likely be little need, as the vast majority of students attending those institutions are college-ready and had to compete to get in. The R1 and selective SLAC students will complain, but about other things generally.
But at non-selective universities where anyone with a heartbeat and a credit card can enroll, there may be a large subset of the student population that is neither college-ready nor so much motivated enough to complete the university experience. Professors employed at such institutions may need to exercise greater classroom management, yet still be prepared for ambush complaints during class time.
A good syllabus, which might include well-written Learning Objectives, is also a great tool in the toolbox.
Stu Dent:
"Professor, how is blah blah blah relevant to the course?"Me:
"You can find that posted in the Learning Objectives in the syllabus."Stu Dent:
"Professor, how is blah blah blah relevant to my major?"Me:
"You can find that posted in the course description in the syllabus."The
Batman slap meme generator is also great to use during 1st day orientation.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstfuhero.com%2F&psig=AOvVaw2reQTlzgcnxjTBSfTdVANZ&ust=1645822241314000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCKjZx-KbmfYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD
We ask our new TAs what they are doing that is helping their students learn. Most have really thoughtful, useful idea (write the schedule for class on the board, have students discuss ideas in groups, using a rubric for grading, etc.).
Others, not so much (make their own slide deck & repeat the lecture in discussion, see if anyone is nodding, give students even more papers to read).
And then we got this gem: "I tell students I am available 24/7 for their questions".
Telling students you are "available 24/7" is a recipe for burnout. Just saying.
Yes, I'm constantly finding I need to tell my TAs to QUIT VOLUNTEERING to work for free, and QUIT OFFERING to hold online lessons when they're too sick to come in to campus to teach their n-person seminars. My friend, if you're too sick to teach, then you should not be teaching.
It's sweet of them, but it is yet another of the numerous recipes for burnout.
I need to use that slap meme generator.
I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 25, 2022, 07:03:45 AM
I need to use that slap meme generator.
I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.
You mean the "due date" isn't the "do the assignment" date?!
Maybe try making the assignments due at midnight and make it clear you will not answer emails after 4:00.
If they want help, then they have to start at least a bit earlier.
I put up a discussion forum on the LMS where students can ask questions among each other about the work. Sometimes students are willing to help out other students, especially when I provide incentives for students to be helpful. The downside is when know-nothing students give wrong answers to other students, but that is rare.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 25, 2022, 07:19:05 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 25, 2022, 07:03:45 AM
I need to use that slap meme generator.
I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.
You mean the "due date" isn't the "do the assignment" date?!
Maybe try making the assignments due at midnight and make it clear you will not answer emails after 4:00.
If they want help, then they have to start at least a bit earlier.
I have a syllabus statement which says that I don't answer email after 5pm. We're going to have a 'Come to Jesus' talk next week.
Quote from: downer on February 25, 2022, 07:27:56 AM
I put up a discussion forum on the LMS where students can ask questions among each other about the work. Sometimes students are willing to help out other students, especially when I provide incentives for students to be helpful. The downside is when know-nothing students give wrong answers to other students, but that is rare.
I've been hanging out of the class Discord site and there are students who obviously don't pay attention or read the syllabus happily saying things like "we don't have a quiz!" or "does [assignment in other class] count for points in [this class]?" They can't keep track of the difference between their biology lecture, chemistry lecture, biology lab, and chemistry lab. And they have discussions too. Ironically, they do have separate Discord thread for each of these.
I feel for the students, I mean, it's a LOT to organize. But it's all in the syllabus. Get a calendar or day planner, write the stuff down.
Stu who waits until the deadline to submit assignments writes at 5:05 PM:
Quote
I tried every document formatting method, and I am still unable to, would you be able to reopen the assignment as a file upload?
The only file type allowed: Word document
File attached in Stu's email: PDF
Deadline: 5 PM
The class has been uploading Word documents since the first week of class.
The assignment was to submit the draft of a paper for peer review. The only place for submitting reviews is the assigned folder in Canvas.
Stu #2 at 5:04
Quote
I tried submitting the paper multiple times but it says it failed. I am so sorry I am not home but I will attach the essay here. So sorry I don't have wifi. I am using a hotspot.
Stu, you don't have wifi, but chose to enroll in an online course. Why would you rely on a hotspot to upload your assignment? Why wait until the deadline when you could have uploaded your assignment earlier as some of your classmates did?
Head bang, head bang, another head bang for a third stu's excuse. I am not responding to emails until 8 AM on Monday.
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I think the technical term for this type of request is "ave maria".
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I emphasize the protocol when reviewing the syllabus (there's even a syllabus quiz question on it). Students are only entitled to an accommodation if their disability is verified by the disability office prior to any test or assignment.
Quote from: Anon1787 on February 26, 2022, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I emphasize the protocol when reviewing the syllabus (there's even a syllabus quiz question on it). Students are only entitled to an accommodation if their disability is verified by the disability office prior to any test or assignment.
Yep. It's all in the syllabus. I posted an announcement about it, etc., etc., etc. They don't read.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on February 26, 2022, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I emphasize the protocol when reviewing the syllabus (there's even a syllabus quiz question on it). Students are only entitled to an accommodation if their disability is verified by the disability office prior to any test or assignment.
Yep. It's all in the syllabus. I posted an announcement about it, etc., etc., etc. They don't read.
Our disability office makes it very clear: accommodations must be documented and are not retroactive.
Unless you disability folks work on weekends ( highly doubtful ) it's too late to ask for documentation.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 26, 2022, 01:25:16 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I think the technical term for this type of request is "ave maria".
Yes, I agree, a "Hail Mary" pass just about characterizes it.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on February 27, 2022, 03:20:43 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 26, 2022, 01:25:16 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I think the technical term for this type of request is "ave maria".
Yes, I agree, a "Hail Mary" pass just about characterizes it.
M.
I wonder if a special "Hail Mary requests" thread would be worthwhile. Having them all collected might be entertaining. (And they are only one subset of head-banging requests.)
Go for it!
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 26, 2022, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on February 26, 2022, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I emphasize the protocol when reviewing the syllabus (there's even a syllabus quiz question on it). Students are only entitled to an accommodation if their disability is verified by the disability office prior to any test or assignment.
Yep. It's all in the syllabus. I posted an announcement about it, etc., etc., etc. They don't read.
Our disability office makes it very clear: accommodations must be documented and are not retroactive.
Unless you disability folks work on weekends ( highly doubtful ) it's too late to ask for documentation.
Since your field is physics perhaps they think you are Time Lord who can retroactively submit the necessary documentation?
Quote from: Anon1787 on February 27, 2022, 02:38:20 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 26, 2022, 09:09:21 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on February 26, 2022, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 26, 2022, 12:59:36 PM
I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.
Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.
I emphasize the protocol when reviewing the syllabus (there's even a syllabus quiz question on it). Students are only entitled to an accommodation if their disability is verified by the disability office prior to any test or assignment.
Yep. It's all in the syllabus. I posted an announcement about it, etc., etc., etc. They don't read.
Our disability office makes it very clear: accommodations must be documented and are not retroactive.
Unless you disability folks work on weekends ( highly doubtful ) it's too late to ask for documentation.
Since your field is physics perhaps they think you are Time Lord who can retroactively submit the necessary documentation?
Yeah. I think I need that Batman slap meme generator. The emails that I'm getting now are making me want to drink.
From a student today.
"Dear Dr. Fishprof,
I can not find the syllabus quiz on the blackboard. Could you tell me where I can find it on the website so I can get it done?
Thank you,
AWOL Student"
Yeah, that expired A MONTH AGO at the drop deadline. As in, do this, or drop the course.
He has now MISSED 40% of the course material (excluding the final).
Quote from: FishProf on February 28, 2022, 10:40:08 AM
From a student today.
"Dear Dr. Fishprof,
I can not find the syllabus quiz on the blackboard. Could you tell me where I can find it on the website so I can get it done?
Thank you,
AWOL Student"
Yeah, that expired A MONTH AGO at the drop deadline. As in, do this, or drop the course.
He has now MISSED 40% of the course material (excluding the final).
Yep. I have a student who currently has a 4.8% in the course.
It is students like this that make me waffle on course design for my online courses.
Do I:
1) Make everything due at the end, give them a suggested schedule and let 'er rip?; or
2) Do I give a series of due dates to move the class along (basically make the suggested schedule in #1 mandatory) and enforce them.
Issues
1) Leads to students not doing anything all semester and then begging for extensions. This does allow me to exercise my NO muscles.
2) A steady trickle of begging for extensions. Also good for my NO muscle.
I've tried both. Either way, poor students do poorly.
My online students can work ahead, but not behind. In other words, if they want to spend 48 hours straight focusing on my class, and my class only, then they can do that at the start of the semester and complete most of the weekly assignments in advance. The exams are specific 48 hour windows, and the discussions are weekly (but not worth many points), so they can't finish the entire course in the first week of school, but they can get a lot of it out of the way. However, I do not accept late work and the weekly assignments are designed to keep the course at a steady but reasonable pace. In my opinion, late work is a bad deal for the student (increases their work load, since they have to do the current work AND the past work) and the instructor (increases the grading load at the end of the semester). Just my 2 cents on the issue.
Quote from: FishProf on February 28, 2022, 11:17:47 AM
It is students like this that make me waffle on course design for my online courses.
Do I:
1) Make everything due at the end, give them a suggested schedule and let 'er rip?; or
2) Do I give a series of due dates to move the class along (basically make the suggested schedule in #1 mandatory) and enforce them.
Issues
1) Leads to students not doing anything all semester and then begging for extensions. This does allow me to exercise my NO muscles.
2) A steady trickle of begging for extensions. Also good for my NO muscle.
I've tried both. Either way, poor students do poorly.
I vote for #2.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 28, 2022, 06:53:40 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 28, 2022, 11:17:47 AM
It is students like this that make me waffle on course design for my online courses.
Do I:
1) Make everything due at the end, give them a suggested schedule and let 'er rip?; or
2) Do I give a series of due dates to move the class along (basically make the suggested schedule in #1 mandatory) and enforce them.
Issues
1) Leads to students not doing anything all semester and then begging for extensions. This does allow me to exercise my NO muscles.
2) A steady trickle of begging for extensions. Also good for my NO muscle.
I've tried both. Either way, poor students do poorly.
I vote for #2.
Having tried both, I concur.
On of my bright, geeky music students, who also takes music theory with me, is starting to figure out how to use online systems to create soundtracks.
He's fairly random about it, so his pieces have so far been, um, thick, dense, and interesting, but not quite yet coherent.
I suggested we take just four counts and pull apart the three lines that were sounding simultaneously, and try to make some sense out of them. I mentioned that one of them basically had an F Major chord, and if he wanted to apply the notes F, A, and C to the rhythms he had in the other lines, it might be one way to introduce some communicative integration into the piece.
"But see," he said, "that's the trouble. This stuff we learn in theory, I can't use it here. Take these parallel octaves, for example....I need to fix them..."
"Wait a minute," I said. "Parallel octaves? Where? How do you know about parallel octaves?"
"Uh--we covered them in...."
Silence. I waited it out. Finally, light dawns on marble head.
"Oh."
"So what do you do to fix them."
He did it.
"So, tell me again about music theory not being very useful in this environment....?"
He was gracious enough to admit that maybe, just maybe, there was a point to all that 'stuff' we'd been doing...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 01, 2022, 07:19:53 PM
On of my bright, geeky music students, who also takes music theory with me, is starting to figure out how to use online systems to create soundtracks.
He's fairly random about it, so his pieces have so far been, um, thick, dense, and interesting, but not quite yet coherent.
I suggested we take just four counts and pull apart the three lines that were sounding simultaneously, and try to make some sense out of them. I mentioned that one of them basically had an F Major chord, and if he wanted to apply the notes F, A, and C to the rhythms he had in the other lines, it might be one way to introduce some communicative integration into the piece.
"But see," he said, "that's the trouble. This stuff we learn in theory, I can't use it here. Take these parallel octaves, for example....I need to fix them..."
"Wait a minute," I said. "Parallel octaves? Where? How do you know about parallel octaves?"
"Uh--we covered them in...."
Silence. I waited it out. Finally, light dawns on marble head.
"Oh."
"So what do you do to fix them."
He did it.
"So, tell me again about music theory not being very useful in this environment....?"
He was gracious enough to admit that maybe, just maybe, there was a point to all that 'stuff' we'd been doing...
M.
Well, he did eventually get it, so I might consider that a win.
Yesterday we were covering a topic that students tend to struggle with. I had some people catch on with a few tips, but some others I would try to find a bunch of different ways to say the same thing and they were still lost. The most frustrating ones though were the ones in lab that didn't seem to trust what they were observing and wanted me to tell them what their observations should be.
You're right, and he always admits his errors with a good will and fixes them, so it really was a win.
It was just that the timing was so funny...
I'm still chuckling over the sort-of-silent "bad-a-ching!"
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 01, 2022, 07:19:53 PM
On of my bright, geeky music students, who also takes music theory with me, is starting to figure out how to use online systems to create soundtracks.
He's fairly random about it, so his pieces have so far been, um, thick, dense, and interesting, but not quite yet coherent.
I suggested we take just four counts and pull apart the three lines that were sounding simultaneously, and try to make some sense out of them. I mentioned that one of them basically had an F Major chord, and if he wanted to apply the notes F, A, and C to the rhythms he had in the other lines, it might be one way to introduce some communicative integration into the piece.
"But see," he said, "that's the trouble. This stuff we learn in theory, I can't use it here. Take these parallel octaves, for example....I need to fix them..."
"Wait a minute," I said. "Parallel octaves? Where? How do you know about parallel octaves?"
"Uh--we covered them in...."
Silence. I waited it out. Finally, light dawns on marble head.
"Oh."
"So what do you do to fix them."
He did it.
"So, tell me again about music theory not being very useful in this environment....?"
He was gracious enough to admit that maybe, just maybe, there was a point to all that 'stuff' we'd been doing...
M.
A few years ago, I was working with some students to create public health service announcements that would be played on radio stations in my fieldwork site in Central America. I contacted a faculty member in music and asked if she had any students who may be interested.
The one who showed up was, I strongly suspect, somewhere on the autism spectrum. We discussed what I needed -short, catchy jingles in a major key to which I could add the information. What I got were a half dozen compositions, each 15 minutes long, of beat heavy electronica. Too much Daft Punk for your average Mayan villager to process. I also told him I could pay $10 and hour to a maximum of $100. I think he invoiced me for something like 30 hours. Unlike your young lad, mine never quite understood the brief.
Oh, dear.
Sort of like milking the goose that laid the golden egg.
On the other hand, the student understood the need to be a good musical agent for oneself in billing one's hours...!
M.
Arghh!!
I have a TA that has good intentions (be supportive! help the students!), but really bad instincts.
Me: put students in their presentation teams this week. They have time in lab to work on their presentation.
TA: Do I form the teams or do they pick the teams?
Me: Either is fine. Your choice.
TA: Hey students! Email me by [several days after lab] to let me know who you'd like to work with! I'll put you in teams [blah blah]
Me: give students back their exam in lab this week. They need it for their reflection assignment due next week.
TA: Oh, I didn't have time to go through all the questions with them so I didn't give them back.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
So, the main point of scaffolding assignments in my class is to encourage students to spread the work out over the entire semester, and also to give me an opportunity to provide early feedback on some of their work related to the final project. One aspect of these scaffolding assignments is a timeline that shows when the work will be completed, so that students can monitor their own progress. While I realize that for most students the actual timeline is something along the lines of "24 hours before it is due, I will start the project", I maintain hope that the timeline requirement will give them ideas of how to be more responsible in the future. However, when a student submits a timeline with dates *after* the project is due to complete the work (and I do not accept late work in this class...), I am tempted to bang. bang. bang.
I inherited a class that had been set up with scaffolding (I was an adjunct teaching art history, and the architecture history prof was sent to long-term bedrest with serious mono....).
After the abysmal response to the 1st assignment, I stripped all the scaffolding out--I was already teaching 4 other courses (2 of Modern Art, 1 at night, one daytime, with only a dozen students each, so I'd accepted it as do-able, but the Intro classes and the now-added Arch. Hx. class were surveys with 25-50 each, and both were full, so the grading was very hard).
I didn't need the added grading and feedback, and figured they could structure things for themselves: I didn't have the bandwidth (I left the suggestion to meet the projected dates up to the students: i.e., if they wanted to do their bibs, intros, etc. as originally booked, I'd look at them and give feedback--1 or 2 did, but that was all.)
Got the same grade distributions, roughly, as I might have expected with all the hand-holding, the same strong students did the work, the same late-workers didn't.
So I decided I wasn't a fan of scaffolding until grad student levels made it likely they'd actually make use of the system as it was meant to be used.
And from what I gather, even that doesn't always work, so...cui bono?
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 07, 2022, 06:56:53 AM
Got the same grade distributions, roughly, as I might have expected with all the hand-holding, the same strong students did the work, the same late-workers didn't.
So I decided I wasn't a fan of scaffolding until grad student levels made it likely they'd actually make use of the system as it was meant to be used.
And from what I gather, even that doesn't always work, so...cui bono?
M.
I think most interventions have the biggest effect in the middle; as you say, the pro-active ones will do fine regardless, and the total slackers won't benefit. However, the ones who have moderate ability and motivation will get some benefit from having more feedback. (Even still, the effect will be relatively modest.)
That's my experience.
I have a student who is on a sports team who has been, shall we say, really trying to stretch the limit of "work with their instructors for how to make up missing work".
The final exam is online. It's open note. It's available ALL DAY. Your coach agreed that yes, you would have access to a quiet room with good internet and a table to sit at with your notes.
No, you cannot take it another day. I do not care that you would prefer next week Tuesday. I know you have finals in other classes. This is not up for negotiation.
Stop.
Emailing.
Me.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 10, 2022, 03:02:11 PM
I have a student who is on a sports team who has been, shall we say, really trying to stretch the limit of "work with their instructors for how to make up missing work".
The final exam is online. It's open note. It's available ALL DAY. Your coach agreed that yes, you would have access to a quiet room with good internet and a table to sit at with your notes.
Last year I had a student athlete who needed to take a final exam (online) on the same day as a regional track meet. Student was super proactive and confirmed things with me ahead of time; I was able to see the student log in to the exam at the appropriate time and all seemed to be going well.
Because all exams were online, I was available on Zoom for the entire exam period. Student logged in to ask a question towards the end of the exam period. Stu's camera was on. Stu was sitting on the ground behind a barn using a phone as a hot spot. It was windy, so Stu was using sticks and small rocks to keep stu's papers from flying away. I said, "You should have told me the conditions were so poor! We could have arranged another time." Stu said, "I just wanted to finish strong."
Sounds like your student athlete needs a little of my student athlete's grit.
AR.
Online exam has started. It's open note, any resources from the class website are allowed and they have 3 hours once they start.
I have students who are earning really low scores and finishing in less than an hour.
I just don't understand their mindset. The questions appear all at once, they can change answers before submitting, they can email me if they are confused or have questions. This is honestly the lowest stakes way I've ever offered a final exam. Why the rush?
Do they have other more urgent things to do? Probably not
Is this a case of "meh, no point stressing when a C is good enough"? Doubtful
"There is no way I'll learn all of this in 3 hours so I may as well just turn it in"? Maybe?
These students did the same thing for an in person exam earlier this quarter. They finished in like 20 minutes even though they had an hour. But then a whole bunch said that they didn't read carefully or really think about the questions. Argh!!
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2022, 11:26:51 AM
Online exam has started. It's open note, any resources from the class website are allowed and they have 3 hours once they start.
I have students who are earning really low scores and finishing in less than an hour.
I just don't understand their mindset. The questions appear all at once, they can change answers before submitting, they can email me if they are confused or have questions. This is honestly the lowest stakes way I've ever offered a final exam. Why the rush?
Do they have other more urgent things to do? Probably not
Is this a case of "meh, no point stressing when a C is good enough"? Doubtful
"There is no way I'll learn all of this in 3 hours so I may as well just turn it in"? Maybe?
These students did the same thing for an in person exam earlier this quarter. They finished in like 20 minutes even though they had an hour. But then a whole bunch said that they didn't read carefully or really think about the questions. Argh!!
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
We have the opposite students apparently. I give a non-cumulative regular third exam, the same length as the other 80 min. exams, during the 3-hour final exam block. A sizable number of students stay for the whole 3 hours. It is closed materials and proctored, so it's not as if they are looking things up. What are they doing for all that time? From observation, staring blankly at the paper hoping something will magically come to them, or triple checking things obsessively.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2022, 11:26:51 AM
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
I wonder how much of this is also attributable to "ooh the other kids haven't left yet I should still be working"?
Quote from: Puget on March 11, 2022, 01:08:30 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2022, 11:26:51 AM
Online exam has started. It's open note, any resources from the class website are allowed and they have 3 hours once they start.
I have students who are earning really low scores and finishing in less than an hour.
I just don't understand their mindset. The questions appear all at once, they can change answers before submitting, they can email me if they are confused or have questions. This is honestly the lowest stakes way I've ever offered a final exam. Why the rush?
Do they have other more urgent things to do? Probably not
Is this a case of "meh, no point stressing when a C is good enough"? Doubtful
"There is no way I'll learn all of this in 3 hours so I may as well just turn it in"? Maybe?
These students did the same thing for an in person exam earlier this quarter. They finished in like 20 minutes even though they had an hour. But then a whole bunch said that they didn't read carefully or really think about the questions. Argh!!
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
We have the opposite students apparently. I give a non-cumulative regular third exam, the same length as the other 80 min. exams, during the 3-hour final exam block. A sizable number of students stay for the whole 3 hours. It is closed materials and proctored, so it's not as if they are looking things up. What are they doing for all that time? From observation, staring blankly at the paper hoping something will magically come to them, or triple checking things obsessively.
Hoping for a blessing of divine inspiration from the gods of science? Like Darwin is going to speak directly to their brain or something.
Don't forget the endless foot tapping, nose rubbing, and shifting in the uncomfortable seats.
I've also seen students TAKE A NAP during the final. I ask TAs to gently wake them up to see if they are OK. They say they are fine, just needed a quick nap.
My head-banging is over a parent stomping into his kid's music theory class--with other students in attendance, on Zoom--and yelling very rudely at the kid, who's just told him that class is going on. (In past times, when I was teaching in their home, this would also happen, so it wasn't a one-off situation).
This is one of the bright, very good kids who's fighting several inner demons--and clearly, at least one outer one.
He turned off his screen and came back a bit later, very muted and fidgety. And then proceeded to nail all the chord identities once he'd calmed down.
Wish I could say: "Just because you engender someone doesn't mean you get to be nasty and mean to them."
What I will say: Nothing, because it would make things worse.
But I will need to let his mom (one of my adult students) know, because there have been ongoing issues around his mental health and the way his dad treats him--withdrawal is, after all, a sane response to attack, and a kid shouldn't have to fear his dad like this.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 11, 2022, 02:52:44 PM
My head-banging is over a parent stomping into his kid's music theory class--with other students in attendance, on Zoom--and yelling very rudely at the kid, who's just told him that class is going on. (In past times, when I was teaching in their home, this would also happen, so it wasn't a one-off situation).
This is one of the bright, very good kids who's fighting several inner demons--and clearly, at least one outer one.
He turned off his screen and came back a bit later, very muted and fidgety. And then proceeded to nail all the chord identities once he'd calmed down.
Wish I could say: "Just because you engender someone doesn't mean you get to be nasty and mean to them."
What I will say: Nothing, because it would make things worse.
But I will need to let his mom (one of my adult students) know, because there have been ongoing issues around his mental health and the way his dad treats him--withdrawal is, after all, a sane response to attack, and a kid shouldn't have to fear his dad like this.
M.
Not your fault, of course, but this is one of the things about online classes. For some kids, the best the thing about school is that it isn't in their house.
In this case, it's almost never in his dad's house (they're divorced now, thankfully) because of just this issue; his mom and I talked about it and recognized that it was asking too much of him to concentrate when he's in a constantly acidic, dripping, environment like that.
Just every now and again, when scheduling requires it, he's ended up at his dad's at a time when his lesson is set, and it's too late to change things.
But, yeah, I really wish for his sake that visiting rights for certain parents wasn't a thing.
I've dealt with one other situation, a longer time ago, that was worse: I had to throw a "social worker" (not really one, as it turned out) that the father had retained to GO IN THE MOM'S HOUSE AND WATCH WHAT THE KIDS WERE DOING ALL THE TIME so he could 'get dirt on her' to reduce her visiting rights and his alimony. (this was a well-paid commercial pilot who'd pinned her down on the floor and almost choked her to death in the kids' sight, then nearly thrown one of the kids over a chasm while the family was out skiing--but no, he didn't have 'anger issues').
I informed the putative "social worker" that, no, she couldn't be typing on her laptop while I was explaining seventh-chord arpeggios, it was distracting--and that, yes, we most often did the kid's lesson in French because the kids were trilingual (the mom was Polish, and they attended a French bilingual school).
In fact, it was so I could tell him without her listening in and reporting it, that I understood the degree of stress he was under and that he didn't have to put up with stuff like that, and that I wasn't going to, and we were going to have a good lesson in spite of anything.
After sitting on her hands, and putting up with a long explanation of the fingering of the various arpeggios, she left.
M.
Dear student,
No, I am not going to create additional assignments in this already assignment-heavy skills class because you did not complete the previous assignments that were listed on the syllabus. if you did not do the work I assigned previously, why should I assign you more work?
Dear colleagues,
I would never presume to tell you how to run your class, so I am asking you respectfully not to tell me how to run mine.
Dear other colleagues,
This, this is what you want to spend energy fighting about?! You have got way more mental space that I do and clearly a lot more free time on your hands. Can I interest you in some grading?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on March 16, 2022, 04:42:27 PM
Dear colleagues,
I would never presume to tell you how to run your class, so I am asking you respectfully not to tell me how to run mine.
Faculty colleagues can choose to be generous with their own time. They have no right to be generous with my own time.
Twenty years of teaching, and back-to-back sections of the exact same course still sometimes produce radically different levels of work, like I keep stepping through some rift in the space/time/basic skills continuum in the ten minutes between the two classes.
Quote from: fishbrains on March 19, 2022, 03:01:29 PM
Twenty years of teaching, and back-to-back sections of the exact same course still sometimes produce radically different levels of work, like I keep stepping through some rift in the space/time/basic skills continuum in the ten minutes between the two classes.
At least it's not just me experiencing this phenomenon. Most fall semesters I teach 4 lab sections of the same course. I always have one section (no consistency on time, day of the week, etc.) that will be 6-8 percentage points lower in their median grade than the three other sections that are typically within one point of each other.
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 21, 2022, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on March 19, 2022, 03:01:29 PM
Twenty years of teaching, and back-to-back sections of the exact same course still sometimes produce radically different levels of work, like I keep stepping through some rift in the space/time/basic skills continuum in the ten minutes between the two classes.
At least it's not just me experiencing this phenomenon. Most fall semesters I teach 4 lab sections of the same course. I always have one section (no consistency on time, day of the week, etc.) that will be 6-8 percentage points lower in their median grade than the three other sections that are typically within one point of each other.
These kinds of situations are great examples of why statistical sampling to get something "representative" or "unbiased" is so hard.
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 21, 2022, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on March 19, 2022, 03:01:29 PM
Twenty years of teaching, and back-to-back sections of the exact same course still sometimes produce radically different levels of work, like I keep stepping through some rift in the space/time/basic skills continuum in the ten minutes between the two classes.
At least it's not just me experiencing this phenomenon. Most fall semesters I teach 4 lab sections of the same course. I always have one section (no consistency on time, day of the week, etc.) that will be 6-8 percentage points lower in their median grade than the three other sections that are typically within one point of each other.
K-12 teachers will sometimes tell you that there are whole student cohorts that are like this all the way through school. Some years ago our local schools produced a cohort that was already notorious in grade school. Teachers in upper grades observed this group's gradual progress toward their own grades with growing dread. I think they've all now graduated--or otherwise concluded their schooling.
My own HS graduating class, and that of my brother, who graduated the following year, showed quite dramatic differences in post-K-12 educational and career achievement. I'm at a loss to explain the difference, in the absence of something obvious like a war or a depression that suddenly sabotaged the second group. I'm sure Malcolm Gladwell would be happy to identify a simple, plausible-sounding factor that explained all the differences, but I'd probably take whatever he found with a grain of salt.
Student emails me wanted to clear up 'confusion' about the lab. This lab was two months ago...
In out intro course we frequently see the lab sections that are "late additions" - those that open for enrollment the week before class starts are significantly worse performance wise than those sections that filled during standard registration. It can also be an issue if there is some other course that students often enroll in during the same semester. The scheduling of that other class may be selecting for all the better students to be in one time slot vs another.
Quote from: apl68 on March 21, 2022, 08:32:06 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on March 21, 2022, 06:28:29 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on March 19, 2022, 03:01:29 PM
Twenty years of teaching, and back-to-back sections of the exact same course still sometimes produce radically different levels of work, like I keep stepping through some rift in the space/time/basic skills continuum in the ten minutes between the two classes.
At least it's not just me experiencing this phenomenon. Most fall semesters I teach 4 lab sections of the same course. I always have one section (no consistency on time, day of the week, etc.) that will be 6-8 percentage points lower in their median grade than the three other sections that are typically within one point of each other.
K-12 teachers will sometimes tell you that there are whole student cohorts that are like this all the way through school. Some years ago our local schools produced a cohort that was already notorious in grade school. Teachers in upper grades observed this group's gradual progress toward their own grades with growing dread. I think they've all now graduated--or otherwise concluded their schooling.
My own HS graduating class, and that of my brother, who graduated the following year, showed quite dramatic differences in post-K-12 educational and career achievement. I'm at a loss to explain the difference, in the absence of something obvious like a war or a depression that suddenly sabotaged the second group. I'm sure Malcolm Gladwell would be happy to identify a simple, plausible-sounding factor that explained all the differences, but I'd probably take whatever he found with a grain of salt.
I would bet on some combination of random variation and observer bias. My guess is that the perception of groups of students is heavily influenced by the outliers-very talented students on one end-and on the other end students who cause problems on the other. At least in college teaching, classes usually work well when I have a few really good students who set the tone and encourage other students to participate. If there's just nobody who is willing to do that, or only one student who is, that can make things hard. On the other side, if you have a few students who are actively disruptive, it makes things much harder.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 21, 2022, 09:16:43 AM
In our intro course we frequently see the lab sections that are "late additions" - those that open for enrollment the week before class starts are significantly worse performance wise than those sections that filled during standard registration.
This specific issue has come up before on here; students who are not pro-active routinely perform worse than those who are.
My first post here and of course it's in this thread!
We have two sessions a week, a student came up to me at the end of our lecture on Thursday (end of week 7) worried because she didn't have a group for the assignment and she had only just found out it was a group assignment. When I pointed out that I told them in both sessions of the week1 that it was a group assignment and they needed to form groups, I reminded them again in week 2 and asked them to let me know who was in their groups. I went through the assignment in detail during our session in week 6 and held then held tutorials in week 6, the assignment details are in the course handbook and on Canvas! All she could do was stand there and say "I missed my tutorial and I didn't know about the assignment". I didn't know how to reply! I've put out a call via Canvas for anyone else without a group and asked everyone in our session on Monday. I've got a tutorial booked with her for Thursday before our lecture so I'll see what happens then!
How did she find out there's breakfast in the dining hall every morning?
(Or did she?)
M.
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron).
And M-C answers that are more than one word are too hard.
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 22, 2022, 11:20:56 AM
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron).
And M-C answers that are more than one word are too hard.
Dang, that's even worse than random guessing. You sure they didn't accidentally put the wrong version on their scantron?
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 22, 2022, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 22, 2022, 11:20:56 AM
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron).
And M-C answers that are more than one word are too hard.
Dang, that's even worse than random guessing. You sure they didn't accidentally put the wrong version on their scantron?
Even
that should still be about like random answers. Doing statistically worse than random requires
skills.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 22, 2022, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 22, 2022, 11:20:56 AM
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron).
And M-C answers that are more than one word are too hard.
Dang, that's even worse than random guessing. You sure they didn't accidentally put the wrong version on their scantron?
Nope. Stu also neglected to answer one of the essay questions (which was on the study guide almost verbatim). And to recall my previous post, Stu took at least 45 minutes to turn in their exam (not sure if Stu was embarrassed to turn it in sooner or worked all that time).
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2022, 11:26:51 AM
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
Maybe it is that in class they can compare themselves to everyone else...if everyone else is taking the full hour and they don't feel confident they would probably stay the full hour.
Quote from: bopper on March 23, 2022, 01:21:23 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 11, 2022, 11:26:51 AM
Students finish exams WAY faster online compared to in person. Does the exam not feel as "real" if it's online? Does bubbling in answers on paper really slow them down that much? Is offering an "open note" exam making students feel like they don't need to prepare?
I feel like there is a fundable study to get at these questions, but it's outside my area of expertise.
Maybe it is that in class they can compare themselves to everyone else...if everyone else is taking the full hour and they don't feel confident they would probably stay the full hour.
Ugh. Maybe that's why they all finished Midterm 1 in about 20 minutes in person. The first student just blasted through the exam and they knew they could take a bit of a break before the start of the lab activity. I should have told the TAs that no one leaves the room, even if they finish early. Learning to sit quietly and wait is a skill.
Quote...no one leaves the room, even if they finish early. Learning to sit quietly and wait is a skill.
Best to be careful. This could lead to a charge of false imprisonment.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 22, 2022, 12:38:55 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 22, 2022, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 22, 2022, 11:20:56 AM
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron)...
Dang, that's even worse than random guessing. You sure they didn't accidentally put the wrong version on their scantron?
Even that should still be about like random answers. Doing statistically worse than random requires skills.
Not the way I set up my exams. I try to make almost all of the answer choices different between versions. That way, if someone cheats from the wrong version, it's blatantly obvious. But I don't label the versions, so I fill in the version numbers myself after they turn them in.
Quote from: Biologist_ on March 23, 2022, 06:28:28 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 22, 2022, 12:38:55 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 22, 2022, 12:01:37 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on March 22, 2022, 11:20:56 AM
Stu earns the dubious distinction of getting only 5% correct on the multiple-choice section of an exam (cue blindfolded monkey throwing darts at a scantron)...
Dang, that's even worse than random guessing. You sure they didn't accidentally put the wrong version on their scantron?
Even that should still be about like random answers. Doing statistically worse than random requires skills.
Not the way I set up my exams. I try to make almost all of the answer choices different between versions. That way, if someone cheats from the wrong version, it's blatantly obvious. But I don't label the versions, so I fill in the version numbers myself after they turn them in.
That's interesting. I may try a variation on that.
In January, the department chair begged me to take a 100-level service class, at the last minute (this is one of the disadvantages of teaching in a unit that does not rely on an adjunct pool). I agreed to do it as long as I was never asked to do it again. It was for a section that was added at the last minute. This second section was created to accommodate over-enrollment from the first section, and additional anticipated demand during the first week of class.
My dropout rate is very high. It's actually embarrassingly high. Out of curiosity, I checked up on the academic records of the students who dropped. I was shocked to find out that, of the students who dropped, most of them had standardized test scores that were way below the threshold for minimum admissions standards. I'm not exactly sure what is going on here & how they even got into the university (they are not athletes, BTW), but it was a "Bang Your Head on Your Desk" moment. I think that a lot of the students in this class were dumped in there by advisors who knew that many of the students were a lost cause.
Quote from: lightning on March 24, 2022, 08:23:45 PM
In January, the department chair begged me to take a 100-level service class, at the last minute (this is one of the disadvantages of teaching in a unit that does not rely on an adjunct pool). I agreed to do it as long as I was never asked to do it again. It was for a section that was added at the last minute. This second section was created to accommodate over-enrollment from the first section, and additional anticipated demand during the first week of class.
My dropout rate is very high. It's actually embarrassingly high. Out of curiosity, I checked up on the academic records of the students who dropped. I was shocked to find out that, of the students who dropped, most of them had standardized test scores that were way below the threshold for minimum admissions standards. I'm not exactly sure what is going on here & how they even got into the university (they are not athletes, BTW), but it was a "Bang Your Head on Your Desk" moment. I think that a lot of the students in this class were dumped in there by advisors who knew that many of the students were a lost cause.
For the most part, why most students fail is a very-poorly kept secret, but it doesn't fit the political narrative that "anyone can be anything they want, and all they need is a little help".
The term used at our Uni for those kinds of admits is backfilling. They admit with the standards, see how they do in terms of yield and then backfill with transfers and other people who would not make the cut until we reach our enrollment goal! That way the enrollment services people always make their targets for an annual bonus. GRRR.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 25, 2022, 07:06:30 AM
The term used at our Uni for those kinds of admits is backfilling. They admit with the standards, see how they do in terms of yield and then backfill with transfers and other people who would not make the cut until we reach our enrollment goal! That way the enrollment services people always make their targets for an annual bonus. GRRR.
Many years ago, our department did an analysis of 10 years worth of data and found that of students coming in with less than a 70% average, not a single one had made it to 2nd year. NOT. A SINGLE. ONE. It was still a battle to get admissions to accept that.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 25, 2022, 07:14:37 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 25, 2022, 07:06:30 AM
The term used at our Uni for those kinds of admits is backfilling. They admit with the standards, see how they do in terms of yield and then backfill with transfers and other people who would not make the cut until we reach our enrollment goal! That way the enrollment services people always make their targets for an annual bonus. GRRR.
Many years ago, our department did an analysis of 10 years worth of data and found that of students coming in with less than a 70% average, not a single one had made it to 2nd year. NOT. A SINGLE. ONE. It was still a battle to get admissions to accept that.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 25, 2022, 07:06:30 AM
The term used at our Uni for those kinds of admits is backfilling. They admit with the standards, see how they do in terms of yield and then backfill with transfers and other people who would not make the cut until we reach our enrollment goal! That way the enrollment services people always make their targets for an annual bonus. GRRR.
For me, this has been a sobering reality check. The university proudly advertises the standardized test scores required to get into the university, but in reality, they do not enforce it, and they more-or-less admit anyone with a heartbeat. I thought I was no longer naive, but for some things, I still am. I suppose since I mainly deal with juniors and up within my degree program, the backfill admits rarely get to me.
I think Alma Mater may have been starting to stoop to backfilling shortly before my mother retired. She recalls at least one grossly, hopelessly underqualified student that she believed it was unethical for the school to have admitted. I hope this was and has been a rare exception there. Judging from some things I've seen here, it looks like backfilling is getting to be pretty common in some places that never had much of a reputation for selectivity to start with. Admitting students who pretty clearly have no chance of making it just so you can take their (usually borrowed) money is just appalling. It's taking money under false pretenses.
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2022, 10:39:02 AM
Admitting students who pretty clearly have no chance of making it just so you can take their (usually borrowed) money is just appalling. It's taking money under false pretenses.
Welcome to the world of open-enrollment CC's, like mine. (The only real control we have over this is in some grant-funded programs, but those of us in the gen ed classes they'll need to pass in order to get into those programs deal with tons of "no chance in the world" students as 50% or more of our enrollments. Of course, we then get ripped by Admin for our abysmal pass rates. Sigh.)
I caught a student plagiarizing a discussion via paraphrase tool. I knew it looked weird, read like it was written by a robot who didn't understand the prompt, and happened to see the Wikipedia on the broader topic and realized a few sentences in what had happened.
My question is this: what do you all do when you see that it is so paraphrased (or looks suspiciously like it is), but you can't seem to find the original source? All I feel like I can do if I can't locate it is dock them for readability/coherence and move on.
sorry double post, don't know how to delete.
Quote from: mythbuster on March 25, 2022, 07:06:30 AM
The term used at our Uni for those kinds of admits is backfilling. They admit with the standards, see how they do in terms of yield and then backfill with transfers and other people who would not make the cut until we reach our enrollment goal! That way the enrollment services people always make their targets for an annual bonus. GRRR.
My previous job was at a tiny SLAC. They claimed to have rigorous standards, but in reality would admit anyone willing to pay the stupidly high tuition. The also got rid of the math requirements by "coincidence" the same year they announced the start of a football program.
Lots of "backfilling" to get the numbers up there too.
The admin was always grumbling at the faculty due to the huge drop in students from year 1 to year 2. "where are they going? why are the leaving? what are YOU doing wrong?". Doubly true for BIPOC students & first-to-college.
Hmm, let's see.
Intro class sizes MUCH larger than the promised low student to faculty ratios? check
Really high tuition & cost of living? got it
Intro classes are just straight lecture? check
Students placed in classes they have no hope of passing? got it
Add in a big dash of small town racism and it's no wonder students just felt overwhelmed, unsupported, and didn't want to stay.
Quote from: reverist on March 25, 2022, 12:07:51 PM
I caught a student plagiarizing a discussion via paraphrase tool. I knew it looked weird, read like it was written by a robot who didn't understand the prompt, and happened to see the Wikipedia on the broader topic and realized a few sentences in what had happened.
My question is this: what do you all do when you see that it is so paraphrased (or looks suspiciously like it is), but you can't seem to find the original source? All I feel like I can do if I can't locate it is dock them for readability/coherence and move on.
Report them. And give them a low grade for not addressing the prompt. The conduct folks will decide if it's worth chasing down the original source.
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 25, 2022, 11:42:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2022, 10:39:02 AM
Admitting students who pretty clearly have no chance of making it just so you can take their (usually borrowed) money is just appalling. It's taking money under false pretenses.
Welcome to the world of open-enrollment CC's, like mine. (The only real control we have over this is in some grant-funded programs, but those of us in the gen ed classes they'll need to pass in order to get into those programs deal with tons of "no chance in the world" students as 50% or more of our enrollments. Of course, we then get ripped by Admin for our abysmal pass rates. Sigh.)
Come on, Administration! You can't have BOTH wide-open admissions standards, AND good pass and retention rates. It's like wanting a construction project to be fast, cheap, AND high-quality.
Quote from: reverist on March 25, 2022, 12:07:51 PM
I caught a student plagiarizing a discussion via paraphrase tool. I knew it looked weird, read like it was written by a robot who didn't understand the prompt, and happened to see the Wikipedia on the broader topic and realized a few sentences in what had happened.
My question is this: what do you all do when you see that it is so paraphrased (or looks suspiciously like it is), but you can't seem to find the original source? All I feel like I can do if I can't locate it is dock them for readability/coherence and move on.
I get this increasingly often. I don't normally report students, although I did in the spring for a particularly spectacular case. One thing about the paraphrasing tool is that you don't necessarily notice at first, and it is only after the student slips up that you notice. Then you go back to previous work by the student and you realize that they also used a paraphrasing too. I found a student near the end of the semester who had done that. So I reported them. But it didn't make a difference. I was not able to arrange an execution. I just failed them for the course.
For most cases I say "this looks like you used a plagiarism tool" and give the student a zero for the assignment. If they want to appeal to someone, bring it on. Generally they don't. Actually, they never appeal. Sometimes they moan but don't do anything.
Quote from: downer on March 25, 2022, 04:22:51 PM
Quote from: reverist on March 25, 2022, 12:07:51 PM
I caught a student plagiarizing a discussion via paraphrase tool. I knew it looked weird, read like it was written by a robot who didn't understand the prompt, and happened to see the Wikipedia on the broader topic and realized a few sentences in what had happened.
My question is this: what do you all do when you see that it is so paraphrased (or looks suspiciously like it is), but you can't seem to find the original source? All I feel like I can do if I can't locate it is dock them for readability/coherence and move on.
I get this increasingly often. I don't normally report students, although I did in the spring for a particularly spectacular case. One thing about the paraphrasing tool is that you don't necessarily notice at first, and it is only after the student slips up that you notice. Then you go back to previous work by the student and you realize that they also used a paraphrasing too. I found a student near the end of the semester who had done that. So I reported them. But it didn't make a difference. I was not able to arrange an execution. I just failed them for the course.
For most cases I say "this looks like you used a plagiarism tool" and give the student a zero for the assignment. If they want to appeal to someone, bring it on. Generally they don't. Actually, they never appeal. Sometimes they moan but don't do anything.
First year comp instructor and adjunct at a CC here. I don't dare fail a student if I just
think they plagiarized. I've seen enough tiger moms, and a belligerent student or two, who likely
would have come after me and gotten me fired if I didn't have
proof. My department also wants there to be proof to cover the institution's collective legal posteriors.
If I'm suspicious about a student's work, I keep looking until I find where they plagiarized from. Usually it doesn't take long. More often than not it'll be a cut and paste job from a known plagiarism site or some other web site. I admit that I am not the most tech-savvy of people. If the student has covered their tracks enough that I can't find where they're plagiarizing from, and the paper is in as much of a state of gobbledegook as the example given upthread, then I would fail them for that. The previous, already graded work I would just let go. Changing already established grades is problematic, and if the student is that dependent on cheating, they will likely keep doing it until they're caught. I would give that student's work extra scrutiny from then on!
Larimar
Quote from: Larimar on March 26, 2022, 06:31:41 AM
Quote from: downer on March 25, 2022, 04:22:51 PM
Quote from: reverist on March 25, 2022, 12:07:51 PM
I caught a student plagiarizing a discussion via paraphrase tool. I knew it looked weird, read like it was written by a robot who didn't understand the prompt, and happened to see the Wikipedia on the broader topic and realized a few sentences in what had happened.
My question is this: what do you all do when you see that it is so paraphrased (or looks suspiciously like it is), but you can't seem to find the original source? All I feel like I can do if I can't locate it is dock them for readability/coherence and move on.
I get this increasingly often. I don't normally report students, although I did in the spring for a particularly spectacular case. One thing about the paraphrasing tool is that you don't necessarily notice at first, and it is only after the student slips up that you notice. Then you go back to previous work by the student and you realize that they also used a paraphrasing too. I found a student near the end of the semester who had done that. So I reported them. But it didn't make a difference. I was not able to arrange an execution. I just failed them for the course.
For most cases I say "this looks like you used a plagiarism tool" and give the student a zero for the assignment. If they want to appeal to someone, bring it on. Generally they don't. Actually, they never appeal. Sometimes they moan but don't do anything.
First year comp instructor and adjunct at a CC here. I don't dare fail a student if I just think they plagiarized. I've seen enough tiger moms, and a belligerent student or two, who likely would have come after me and gotten me fired if I didn't have proof. My department also wants there to be proof to cover the institution's collective legal posteriors.
If I'm suspicious about a student's work, I keep looking until I find where they plagiarized from. Usually it doesn't take long. More often than not it'll be a cut and paste job from a known plagiarism site or some other web site. I admit that I am not the most tech-savvy of people. If the student has covered their tracks enough that I can't find where they're plagiarizing from, and the paper is in as much of a state of gobbledegook as the example given upthread, then I would fail them for that. The previous, already graded work I would just let go. Changing already established grades is problematic, and if the student is that dependent on cheating, they will likely keep doing it until they're caught. I would give that student's work extra scrutiny from then on!
Larimar
Also at a CC. I never bothered to report students. If I could figure out they plagiarized, they got a zero. If they wrote gobbledygook that didn't really address the question, they got a zero. If they managed to slip one past me, well, they wouldn't get away with it forever and it wasn't worth my pain sorrow and aggravation.
One student found an article in French, Google-translated it and submitted it. How did I catch it? First, I knew the subject area (foreign exchange rates) and when I asked her about it, she couldn't answer. Second, I recognized the "French accent" in the word choices, and being a French speaker, was able to reverse-engineer the article and found the original.
Re: plagiarism. I'm required to document the plagiarism, determine the initial penalty, meet with the student, and submit forms to student conduct. Students who disagree with the penalty I've assigned based on degree of problem/type of assignment/student level (which can range from a point deduction, a require to revise/resubmit, a 0 for the assignment, failure for the class) can appeal the decision to the student conduct office (no one has every done so). Students who are identified as repeat offenders by the student conduct office may have additional consequences above and beyond what I've assigned for my course (this is why they require us to file the report).
(not specifically plagiarism related) As a grad student TA, I observed a student use a cheat sheet on an exam. The professor told me to ignore it and to grade the exam as if the student had not cheated. The student passed the class. I learned many things not to do when I started teaching my own classes by TAing for that class. I think the professor may have been burnt out.
Our policy is similar to OneMoreYear's, and part of the goal is to determine whether a student has a pattern of plagiarizing. I teach grad students who are teachers and administrators and was disappointed to find that I have at least one case a year. Sometimes the student stops, but other times they plagiarize in their next classes. One department I taught in at another university had a reputation for ignoring cheating and plagiarizing in its doctoral program.
Quote from: AmLitHist on March 25, 2022, 11:42:31 AM
Quote from: apl68 on March 25, 2022, 10:39:02 AM
Admitting students who pretty clearly have no chance of making it just so you can take their (usually borrowed) money is just appalling. It's taking money under false pretenses.
Welcome to the world of open-enrollment CC's, like mine. (The only real control we have over this is in some grant-funded programs, but those of us in the gen ed classes they'll need to pass in order to get into those programs deal with tons of "no chance in the world" students as 50% or more of our enrollments. Of course, we then get ripped by Admin for our abysmal pass rates. Sigh.)
I feel that. We've had admin try to convince us to waive our pre-req from another department. The cynical side of me is that the other department doesn't want the poor pass rate and wants to send it to us.
The students I'm getting now are even worse than when I started here. I'm very discouraged.
None of my print requests arrived on time.
Not one.
So, I spent my morning frantically printing & copying lab manual protocols, worksheets and rosters.
Good thing I was suspicious that they wouldn't be delivered as promised and arrived early. . . .
I remember that run-around.
They want you to use the printing service. "It's cheaper. We get a better deal on paper, labor, etc., that way."
But when they don't deliver, it's the instructor's (or their EA's) labor, time, hidden paper stash, and good will fighting with the printer that get used up instead.
I have twice, in two different schools, had to print exams last-minute because of failures like these.
Such fun.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on March 28, 2022, 01:08:35 PM
I remember that run-around.
They want you to use the printing service. "It's cheaper. We get a better deal on paper, labor, etc., that way."
But when they don't deliver, it's the instructor's (or their EA's) labor, time, hidden paper stash, and good will fighting with the printer that get used up instead.
I have twice, in two different schools, had to print exams last-minute because of failures like these.
Such fun.
M.
I'm not convinced that it's any cheaper or convenient, especially given the hassle of needing more and more lead time to make sure jobs arrive on time.
I've also been told "the department copy machine will overheat if you print more than 100 pages".
Nope.
I can personally attest that it will handle that many no problems.
We used to be strongly encouraged to use the printing services, despite orders that didn't arrive, exams that weren't necessarily attributed to the right instructor, etc. Then someone pointed out that the department was charged the same whether we used the printing services or our local printers. Now we use the local printers.
Our R1 library was the printing service, as far as some faculty seemed to be concerned. Photocopies cost money, but printing from a library computer was free. If you could print a syllabus, flyer, etc. that way, you could print whole reams of paper for free. That said, it was the students who abused it much more than faculty members.
Our public library is now the printing service for our small town. Only yesterday a local business came by and did an astonishing amount of copying on our machines. We had to use both public and staff copiers to get them all done in a timely manner.
What is this printing service you all complain about? I have to wrangle with the 30 other members of my department for time on the one copy machine to print out the exams for my 200 person lecture myself. I have found before 8 am to be the best time to get the machine before it invariably breaks down right before finals. First world problems indeed.
One of the things every TT staff member I knew of had was a private personal printer.
At one place, IT didn't like it; they had to inventory them all and put serial numbers and security locks on them because most were paid for with grant funds.
A few people figured out that system and bought their own with their own money (some covered the ink themselves, as well).
Then they had to define they were NOT grant-funded items everytime a new IT person came around.
M.
I have a personal color printer in my office. My issue is that I have HUGE classes. I can't print & staple 500+ copies of a worksheet/lab assignment/etc. every week. And that's just for one class. Even if I had the time (ha ha), the department would get rather suspicious if I needed to order more ink that often.
TAs, the reason I said "NO SLIDES" for lab is because:
1. all images/tables the students need to see are in the lab manual
2. we expect students to read the protocols before lab
3. we expect students to read the syllabus before lab
4. I know that you will spend TOO MUCH TIME TALKING at the students
Do not tell me "oh, I thought it would be best if I go over the lab with them" and then wonder why they rushed to finish.
No.
Just no.
I'm going to unplug the projectors.
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
Do you have my student from last semester?
That student now wants to be a peer assistant for the class next fall. I tried my best to discourage him and got pretty blunt about how he would have to be far, far more independent than he was while taking the class. Stu does not read social cues well so I've found I have to be super direct but even then he often doesn't get it. He does well in terms of grades, but is very immature in his socio-emotional development.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
Given your moniker, I am surprised that you are not more sympathetic to students who channel wicked-witch-of-the-west as their alter ego. Such students are naturally afraid of water in all its forms. It is time for a new motto: Rain and snow ... stays these [students] from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.
Quote from: arcturus on April 05, 2022, 06:53:05 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
Given your moniker, I am surprised that you are not more sympathetic to students who channel wicked-witch-of-the-west as their alter ego. Such students are naturally afraid of water in all its forms. It is time for a new motto: Rain and snow ... stays these [students] from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.
True. I'm like a cat and hate getting wet, unless it is intentional.
I forgot to mention that this student has a new bit of drama almost every week and it's just exhausting dealing with stu. I need to disengage.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
I'm guessing this is just use-an-umbrella type of rain?
Not entire-roads-unusable-due-to-flooding type of rain?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
Wooow.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on April 05, 2022, 07:37:20 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
I'm guessing this is just use-an-umbrella type of rain?
Not entire-roads-unusable-due-to-flooding type of rain?
Correct. Well, we may have some 'severe' thunderstorms. My motto is 'When in doubt- stay home, but don't ask me if we're still having class. We will always have class unless the College cancels class.'
Stu must be from SoCal.....the only place I lived that has school cancellation reports on rainy or windy days.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 05, 2022, 06:20:56 AM
I have a student who is very, very needy and wants confirmation on everything. Stu asked if we are having class today since it's raining. Sigh. I can't wait for this semester to end. I need a break.
I think I have your student's clone. So. Many. Emails. And it's only week 2 for us . . .
I said they could bring in a [thing] for extra credit since they will need said [thing] for lab next week. Label it, put in the [designated spot] and I'll make sure it's in their lab next week.
They have asked: can I bring a [thing]?, can it be a [certain color of thing]?, do I need to put it in the [designated spot]? If they have lab on [Day B], can they bring it on [Day A]? If they have to commute to campus, can they bring it in the morning?
OMG. I've just been replying "see my announcement on the LMS".
We are switching to Canvas in June. The documentation our OE has developed for the training to make the switch is among the most mind-numbing, poorly written garbage I've ever read. Faculty are already panicking that they won't get their certification finished in time.
Originally the word from OE was that we had to be certified by December. However, last week we got an update that if we're teaching in summer, we have to be certified by May. Apparently those not teaching in summer can still teach the Fall semester without the training. Huh?
I finished my certification last weekend by skipping the instructional material and just doing the exercises and test by actually using the Canvas platform (i.e., building assignments and quizzes, grading mock submissions, etc.). So, I'm OK in terms of my own use of Canvas.
However, a colleague let slip that I'm already finished so--you guessed it--I'm being bombarded with requests for help from other faculty. I don't want to be rude, but let OE help them, since it's their bright idea (and lousy training materials) causing all the panic.
Between all this and the nightmare I foresee with students making the switch--Bang! Bang! Bang!
One school I'm teaching at is starting to require that faculty teaching online asynchronous have to go through their training and get certified. That starts with the fall semester.
When will they provide the training? In the fall, of course.
It boggles the mind.
What is this certification you speak of? We are provided with an empty Canvas shell for each of our classes (regardless of delivery mode) and we get occassional reminders to "publish your course" from the powers-that-be, but there is no required training. Perhaps this explains why my students are "impressed" that my course design is based on modules (one per week) with the lecture material and assignments organized within each module.
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 06, 2022, 01:48:09 PM
We are switching to Canvas in June. The documentation our OE has developed for the training to make the switch is among the most mind-numbing, poorly written garbage I've ever read. Faculty are already panicking that they won't get their certification finished in time.
Originally the word from OE was that we had to be certified by December. However, last week we got an update that if we're teaching in summer, we have to be certified by May. Apparently those not teaching in summer can still teach the Fall semester without the training. Huh?
I finished my certification last weekend by skipping the instructional material and just doing the exercises and test by actually using the Canvas platform (i.e., building assignments and quizzes, grading mock submissions, etc.). So, I'm OK in terms of my own use of Canvas.
However, a colleague let slip that I'm already finished so--you guessed it--I'm being bombarded with requests for help from other faculty. I don't want to be rude, but let OE help them, since it's their bright idea (and lousy training materials) causing all the panic.
Between all this and the nightmare I foresee with students making the switch--Bang! Bang! Bang!
Our IT support folks are trying to recruit faculty to help with the training. I went to one meeting. Nope. Not going to volunteer my time without some sort of official something to put on my cv. We don't have any sort of certification, but despite over a year of warnings that Blackboard is going away, very few courses have been using Canvas.
I'm also being asked to show folks how to do things in Canvas. For my TAs, sure. I'll teach you how to manage your grade book, send announcements, etc.
For other faculty?
Not. My. Job.
Digital natives my a**! How do you [students] not know the first thing about troubleshooting video files? You all are darn lucky that I am tech savvy enough that I can figure out what you are doing wrong and that I'm willing to fix it, so that we will all survive this semester.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 06, 2022, 03:08:30 PM
I'm also being asked to show folks how to do things in Canvas. For my TAs, sure. I'll teach you how to manage your grade book, send announcements, etc.
For other faculty?
Not. My. Job.
I'm often asked to help my fellow faculty with the LMS. We are a small department and our departmental support staff and teaching technology staff were decimated in the last round of cost-cutting, so I'm usually willing to help. But, I can't imagine the fall-out of switching our LMS. This does remind me that I need to back up all of my LMS-housed teaching videos, though.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 06, 2022, 07:47:16 PM
Digital natives my a**! How do you [students] not know the first thing about troubleshooting video files? You all are darn lucky that I am tech savvy enough that I can figure out what you are doing wrong and that I'm willing to fix it, so that we will all survive this semester.
Amen. When required to submit a video of weaving a basket, the vast majority of them will have the "camera" (i.e. phone) pointed at the floor, or ceiling, or will try to hold it in one hand while weaving with the other, or will be too close so it's out of focus or too far away so it's not visible, or obscured by their own body, or.......
PEOPLE: SET SOMETHING UP, TRY IT OUT, AND ADJUST IT UNTIL IT WORKS!!!!If it's not a selfie, they apparently have no idea how to film it.
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Stu, please watch the video.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 07, 2022, 06:51:36 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Stu, please watch the video.
That's basically what I said. I feel like I'm talking to a wall with this class.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Fortunately for me, my response would be: Dear Stu, I would be happy to meet with you during office hours to go over the key concepts of this activity. However, we do not accept late work in this class. Signed: Prof I-am-relentless-about-deadlines
Quote from: arcturus on April 07, 2022, 07:29:25 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Fortunately for me, my response would be: Dear Stu, I would be happy to meet with you during office hours to go over the key concepts of this activity. However, we do not accept late work in this class. Signed: Prof I-am-relentless-about-deadlines
:D
We are encouraged to accept late work and I do with a 20% penalty each day. Stu is looking at getting maybe 40% of potential points. Ugh.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 06, 2022, 07:47:16 PM
Digital natives my a**! How do you [students] not know the first thing about troubleshooting video files? You all are darn lucky that I am tech savvy enough that I can figure out what you are doing wrong and that I'm willing to fix it, so that we will all survive this semester.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 06, 2022, 03:08:30 PM
I'm also being asked to show folks how to do things in Canvas. For my TAs, sure. I'll teach you how to manage your grade book, send announcements, etc.
For other faculty?
Not. My. Job.
I'm often asked to help my fellow faculty with the LMS. We are a small department and our departmental support staff and teaching technology staff were decimated in the last round of cost-cutting, so I'm usually willing to help. But, I can't imagine the fall-out of switching our LMS. This does remind me that I need to back up all of my LMS-housed teaching videos, though.
Don't help. "They" will never replace your support staff, if you do the work of the support staff, in addition to your normal duties.
And, yeah, the promise and potential of teaching digital natives ended up being a crock. I can't believe how much time I waste dealing with students who can't do the most basic things with tech (beyond being consumers of digital content).
We've got a thread on that, somewhere....
M.
Filepaths, *sob* filepaths!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 07:44:38 AM
Quote from: arcturus on April 07, 2022, 07:29:25 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Fortunately for me, my response would be: Dear Stu, I would be happy to meet with you during office hours to go over the key concepts of this activity. However, we do not accept late work in this class. Signed: Prof I-am-relentless-about-deadlines
:D
We are encouraged to accept late work and I do with a 20% penalty each day. Stu is looking at getting maybe 40% of potential points. Ugh.
Dear stu, please see the policy in the syllabus for late work. Prof: Consistently-crushing-dreams-by-enforcing-due-dates
I officially dislike the policy that students can register themselves for classes until the end of the 2nd week of classes* without instructor consent. We are on 10 week quarters!
It's one thing if the student has been attending class, but just had a financial aid complication or other issue to resolve. It's quite another if the student has NEVER attended and wants to be caught up/excused from 2 weeks of material. I tell those students that they are not excused from the work and they should take the class another time. I've been nicer in the past, but these students always fail.
*The same policy is enforced in Summer when the class is compressed into 5 weeks. I wish I was joking.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 09:43:52 AM
*The same policy is enforced in Summer when the class is compressed into 5 weeks. I wish I was joking.
Tell me your college cares only about the tuition checks and not about the actual success without telling me ...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 07:26:20 AM
I feel like I'm talking to a wall with this class.
Same here, with every class. All my sections were doing OK until midterm (with, of course, the usual number of no-shows, no work turned in, and such students). I swear, though: we came back from spring break, and it's like 95% of them have never ever heard of ANY of the stuff we did earlier. You know, the foundational stuff they need to know to finish out the semester strong.
RE; the Canvas certification, our OE requires everyone to take training and pass two tests, one in best practices in OE, and the other in the LMS.
I completely agree with the Not. My. Job. comment, not because I don't want to help (and have consistently refused to participate in those college-wide volunteer groups--I got my fill of that crap years ago), but because we have IT people running out our ears around here. Not a month goes by that the BoT agenda doesn't have at least 2 or 3 new hires, from the most basic level up through Executive Grand Poobah of something we've never heard of. The lowest of the low make about $10K more than I do, and so on upward through the $150K-range. So let those guys do the training of faculty.
I envision a huge cluster--- come fall, because the new Canvas rollout hasn't been announced to students yet. And it takes even returning students here a couple of weeks to get their footing in Blackboard, which we've used for 20+ years. So something new? God help us (and the so-called digital natives). I can easily imagine students a month into the semester saying, "I don't know how to use Canvas"!
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 09:43:52 AM
I officially dislike the policy that students can register themselves for classes until the end of the 2nd week of classes* without instructor consent. We are on 10 week quarters!
It's one thing if the student has been attending class, but just had a financial aid complication or other issue to resolve. It's quite another if the student has NEVER attended and wants to be caught up/excused from 2 weeks of material.
I had a student who DEMANDED he be allowed into my online class after the add deadline. It was granted by the administration. He hasn't even done the syllabus quiz.
Quote from: FishProf on April 07, 2022, 10:06:29 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 09:43:52 AM
I officially dislike the policy that students can register themselves for classes until the end of the 2nd week of classes* without instructor consent. We are on 10 week quarters!
It's one thing if the student has been attending class, but just had a financial aid complication or other issue to resolve. It's quite another if the student has NEVER attended and wants to be caught up/excused from 2 weeks of material.
I had a student who DEMANDED he be allowed into my online class after the add deadline. It was granted by the administration. He hasn't even done the syllabus quiz.
I think some admin-critters need to be told that online =/= self-paced or no deadlines
Maybe if we forced them to take some of those online training programs. Earn a certificate in [online basket teaching]! Come to the synchronous meetings or watch the recordings! But the deadlines are pretty gosh darned firm.
Quote from: ergative on April 07, 2022, 09:19:00 AM
Filepaths, *sob* filepaths!
I was sort of thinking the same thing, but for me, it's filepaths you
S.O.B.!
Quote from: arcturus on April 07, 2022, 07:29:25 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 06:16:25 AM
Stu emails me at 2:30am and starts the email with a 'Good morning.' Well, technically, yes... it's morning. Of course, I was asleep at the time.
Apparently, stu is having difficulty understanding the lab that was due two days ago. Despite, the video (where I explained how to calculate certain things), a video SHOWING me calculating these values on a CALCULATOR, a pdf showing step-by-step instructions of the calculations and detailed instructions in the lab, the student asked "I was wondering if you could go into more detail on the calculation?"
I don't know how to respond to this question.
Fortunately for me, my response would be: Dear Stu, I would be happy to meet with you during office hours to go over the key concepts of this activity. However, we do not accept late work in this class. Signed: Prof I-am-relentless-about-deadlines
One of my students sent me a message @ 7am asking for an extension on a major assignment that was due at 12pm. Keep in mind that students had 5 weeks to complete the assignment and were reminded not to wait until the last minute to start.
Reason given for seeking an extension: Stu was too busy with other classes to start the assignment until one week before the due date (during spring break). Stu spent much of break celebrating Stu's 21st birthday and competing in a college athletic event and claims to have suffered an injury (unclear if the injury resulted from falling down drunk or the athletic competition though I'd guess the former), which prevented Stu from finishing the assignment on time.
Wow. "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
Quote from: kiana on April 07, 2022, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 09:43:52 AM
*The same policy is enforced in Summer when the class is compressed into 5 weeks. I wish I was joking.
Tell me your college cares only about the tuition checks and not about the actual success without telling me ...
Yep. Wow.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 02:31:52 PM
Wow. "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
I agree. I really wonder what some of them are thinking.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2022, 04:38:18 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 02:31:52 PM
Wow. "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
I agree. I really wonder what whether some of them are thinking.
Correction.
I have a student who is going to miss 2 weeks of class to go to an optional fun activity [sports training camp]. I warned them that since it's not a university-affiliated activity that their instructors have 0 obligation to allow them to make-up any missed work. I told them it's not a good use of their time to miss that much in all of their classes (2 labs, 1 exam, 2 quizzes, etc. and that's just the ones I know about). They are going anyway.
Congratulations student, you are going to have a hard time earning a passing grade in any of your classes. And you'll have an exam the day you get back.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 08, 2022, 04:38:18 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 07, 2022, 05:53:03 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 07, 2022, 02:31:52 PM
Wow. "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"
I agree. I really wonder what whether some of them are thinking.
Correction.
Good point. I just got an email from a student who is questioning stu's Midterm course grade. Um, that was about a month ago- why are you emailing me now???
I think some admin-critters need to be told that online =/= self-paced or no deadlines
[/quote]
Here admin-critters preach the gospel of "flexibility." They mean "flexibility" for admin-critters and for students. Flexibility for faculty in how to deal with the torrent of students trying to take in-person classes entirely online and trying to substitute unproctored assignments for in-class work? Not so much.
In one three-page paper, thirteen run-on sentences and fragments. This is two weeks after an extensive grammar lesson, a low-stakes practice worksheet, and having the PowerPoint I used uploaded on the LMS.
I believe Gandalf's most famous line from The Lord of the Rings applies here.
How do students like this graduate from high school?
Larimar
Quote from: Larimar on April 09, 2022, 05:46:01 AM
In one three-page paper, thirteen run-on sentences and fragments. This is two weeks after an extensive grammar lesson, a low-stakes practice worksheet, and having the PowerPoint I used uploaded on the LMS.
I believe Gandalf's most famous line from The Lord of the Rings applies here.
How do students like this graduate from high school?
Larimar
Exactly.
Quote from: Larimar on April 09, 2022, 05:46:01 AM
In one three-page paper, thirteen run-on sentences and fragments. This is two weeks after an extensive grammar lesson, a low-stakes practice worksheet, and having the PowerPoint I used uploaded on the LMS.
I believe Gandalf's most famous line from The Lord of the Rings applies here.
How do students like this graduate from high school?
Larimar
I once had a student whose essay consisted of run-ons and fragments, but not a single correct sentence. I sat down with the student and the tutor in the Writing Center and had the student write down each incorrect sentence and then the corresponding correct sentence with the help of the tutor. After about three sessions, the student's writing improved somewhat.
Schools stopped teaching grammar a long time ago because it was considered "prescriptive".
No cursive writing either in the schools. I have heard some teachers smuggle in grammar to their classes even if it is officially verboten. Of course, it is also partly due to the fact that a of students don't read anything beyond a couple of assigned books a year, and even then they will try to watch the movie instead.
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 09, 2022, 07:51:54 AM
Quote from: Larimar on April 09, 2022, 05:46:01 AM
In one three-page paper, thirteen run-on sentences and fragments. This is two weeks after an extensive grammar lesson, a low-stakes practice worksheet, and having the PowerPoint I used uploaded on the LMS.
I believe Gandalf's most famous line from The Lord of the Rings applies here.
How do students like this graduate from high school?
Larimar
I once had a student whose essay consisted of run-ons and fragments, but not a single correct sentence. I sat down with the student and the tutor in the Writing Center and had the student write down each incorrect sentence and then the corresponding correct sentence with the help of the tutor. After about three sessions, the student's writing improved somewhat.
Schools stopped teaching grammar a long time ago because it was considered "prescriptive".
Yipes. Glad you were able to help the student and that he or she listened at least somewhat. On my student's grade sheet I did say that she should come see me for help with sentence structure.
Grammar is prescriptive? As a serious question, what does that mean in context?
I thought they stopped teaching grammar because it's not on the standardized tests. Sounds like the problem might be more insidious than I thought.
Quote from: downer on April 09, 2022, 08:02:25 AM
No cursive writing either in the schools. I have heard some teachers smuggle in grammar to their classes even if it is officially verboten. Of course, it is also partly due to the fact that a of students don't read anything beyond a couple of assigned books a year, and even then they will try to watch the movie instead.
Grammar is contraband to be smuggled now?
Well, then, heh, heh, heh, let me get my pirate queen hat and practice some evil laughter. This could be fun! Yo ho ho and to the survival of comprehensible writing!
Larimar
Yes, diagramming sentences went out with memorizing the multiplication tables.
Rote learning has had a bad rap in some situations--don't know how one learns Latin (or other languages') verb parts without it, though....
M.
Quote from: Larimar on April 09, 2022, 08:22:32 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 09, 2022, 07:51:54 AM
Quote from: Larimar on April 09, 2022, 05:46:01 AM
In one three-page paper, thirteen run-on sentences and fragments. This is two weeks after an extensive grammar lesson, a low-stakes practice worksheet, and having the PowerPoint I used uploaded on the LMS.
I believe Gandalf's most famous line from The Lord of the Rings applies here.
How do students like this graduate from high school?
Larimar
I once had a student whose essay consisted of run-ons and fragments, but not a single correct sentence. I sat down with the student and the tutor in the Writing Center and had the student write down each incorrect sentence and then the corresponding correct sentence with the help of the tutor. After about three sessions, the student's writing improved somewhat.
Schools stopped teaching grammar a long time ago because it was considered "prescriptive".
Yipes. Glad you were able to help the student and that he or she listened at least somewhat. On my student's grade sheet I did say that she should come see me for help with sentence structure.
Grammar is prescriptive? As a serious question, what does that mean in context?
I thought they stopped teaching grammar because it's not on the standardized tests. Sounds like the problem might be more insidious than I thought.
Quote from: downer on April 09, 2022, 08:02:25 AM
No cursive writing either in the schools. I have heard some teachers smuggle in grammar to their classes even if it is officially verboten. Of course, it is also partly due to the fact that a of students don't read anything beyond a couple of assigned books a year, and even then they will try to watch the movie instead.
Grammar is contraband to be smuggled now?
Well, then, heh, heh, heh, let me get my pirate queen hat and practice some evil laughter. This could be fun! Yo ho ho and to the survival of comprehensible writing!
Larimar
There were several so-called studies claiming that using red ink to correct students' writing resulted in the instructors actively looking for errors. Writing was considered to be "finding one's voice", whatever that means. I recall a friend calling me in desperation because when she sent her students to the Writing Center, she was told that the tutors couldn't help the students with their sentences or grammar, as their mission was to help students find their voice. Her student papers, as I recall, included woulda, shoulda, and other expressions that are not used in academic writing in addition to the run-ons and fragments.
Here is an article from the NYT on why kids can't write:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/education/edlife/writing-education-grammar-students-children.html
Quote from: Langue_doc on April 09, 2022, 09:58:35 AM
There were several so-called studies claiming that using red ink to correct students' writing resulted in the instructors actively looking for errors.
I don't know about the red ink, but I think there's something to the idea that you can go too far in the direction of being fixated on grammar to the exclusion of content. I certainly see plenty of run on sentences and the like, but it isn't the biggest problem my students have with writing. What they really struggle with is making actual academic arguments. If I mark every grammatical mistake on papers, they think that's the main thing they need to work on.
TAs, I know you think you "explained everything clearly and perfectly", but we have mountains of evidence that demonstrates that people do not learn well just by listening!
Yes, they will still ask questions.
Yes, they will still make mistakes.
No, it is NOT a better plan for you to "just do [thing] for them".
No, they will NOT learn "how to use [science equipment]" by watching a video.
I know that YOU could do it "perfectly", but you are not the students. The point is that the students are learning. Mistakes are part of learning.
They need to touch and use the equipment to learn how to use it.
Let go of perfection and let the students TRY before you swoop in to save them.
My list of "never again, not even if you paid me more" TAs is getting longer.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 12, 2022, 05:02:43 PM
TAs, I know you think you "explained everything clearly and perfectly", but we have mountains of evidence that demonstrates that people do not learn well just by listening!
Yes, they will still ask questions.
Yes, they will still make mistakes.
No, it is NOT a better plan for you to "just do [thing] for them".
No, they will NOT learn "how to use [science equipment]" by watching a video.
I know that YOU could do it "perfectly", but you are not the students. The point is that the students are learning. Mistakes are part of learning.
They need to touch and use the equipment to learn how to use it.
Let go of perfection and let the students TRY before you swoop in to save them.
My list of "never again, not even if you paid me more" TAs is getting longer.
Did you try asking the TA how the TA learned how to use the equipment? Or does the TA have a complete lack of awareness?
Utter and complete lack of awareness.
That in itself would make an interesting Punnett chart...
M.
Stu missed a quiz today and asked for a makeup even though my syllabus says no makeups and even though we drop a couple quizzes.
On the other hand, he didn't turn in a major assignment last week, worth 20% of the grade, and I haven't heard a peep from him about that!
Today's honors seminar included a discussion of Harriet Jacobs's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl. We discussed the scene in which Mrs. Flint says she loves slave Nancy so much that she wants Nancy buried with her. Jacobs says that this illustrates the weird attachment and affection the owners have for their slaves. This exchange happened during the discussion:
Student: Of course Mrs. Flint feels attachment! If someone does favors for you her entire life, then you're going to feel affection for them.
Me: Not sure "favor" is the right word, because Nancy doesn't have any agency here.
Student: That's degrading! It's pretty racist for you to assume Nancy doesn't have agency.
Me: But that's one of the text's themes, of the perverse nature of having absolute control over someone else.
Student: It's not "absolute" control. There's always a choice.
Me: You're saying that Nancy chose to sleep outside of Flint's bedroom, and have a series of miscarriages over the course of her life?
Student: Yes.
Another student: Duuuuude
Student: She could have hidden or left, as Jacobs did. Slaves ran away all the time. Nancy chose to stay and help out Mrs. Flint, and you're racist if you think otherwise.
I mean, technically he's correct: there's no "absolute" control. But I don't know how to react to a "slaves chose to be slaves" rhetoric, especially when couched as "you're racist if you think slaves lacked agency." Anyone have experience diffusing such situations, or ways to avoid this kind of antagonism?
It might help to examine the cost of exerting that agency, which had to always be factored in: death, serious violent treatment, being sold away from family, and other costs were exacted from those who tried to take agency and failed.
One might also discuss studies of the Stockholm Syndrome, which examines agency, empathy with one's jailers/enslavers, and mitigated decision-making capacities.
The student is correct, one always wants to uphold the idea that agency is possible--I'd still be in an abusive marriage if it weren't, or dead--but circumstances and structures were often so seriously stacked against the potential agent that their capacity to exert that agency was severely curtailed, to the point that it became miniscule in the worst cases--and there were many worst cases.
I uphold absolutely the inclusion of the discussion of agency since it is one of the elements omitted from the narrative of enslavement, most often in the depiction of white (or simply more powerful, in other settings) allies as doing all the heavy lifting, which tends to de-emphasize the strenuous efforts blacks (and other individuals who have been oppressed in other ways) made to extricate themselves from enslavement, and create a 'hero-making' narrative that deflects value from those who did actively work to bring themselves out of their situations despite their structural disempowerment.
Another approach might be the parallels (such as they exist) with the Russian war on Ukraine. Allies like the US, UK, et al. may give munitions to the defenders, but it's primarily the Ukrainians who will have liberated themselves, as things appear at this point, if they can.
If the US/UK, et al. were to then claim they'd done all the work, the Ukrainians might have serious reason for complaint, right?
So that might help ventilate and elucidate the situation further.
M.
ETA: What Morden said, below, more succinctly.
QuoteAnyone have experience diffusing such situations, or ways to avoid this kind of antagonism?
I would probably try to reframe it as an example of the structure/agency debate in sociology.
Quote from: RatGuy on April 18, 2022, 10:40:43 AM
Today's honors seminar included a discussion of Harriet Jacobs's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl. We discussed the scene in which Mrs. Flint says she loves slave Nancy so much that she wants Nancy buried with her. Jacobs says that this illustrates the weird attachment and affection the owners have for their slaves. This exchange happened during the discussion:
Student: Of course Mrs. Flint feels attachment! If someone does favors for you her entire life, then you're going to feel affection for them.
Me: Not sure "favor" is the right word, because Nancy doesn't have any agency here.
Student: That's degrading! It's pretty racist for you to assume Nancy doesn't have agency.
Me: But that's one of the text's themes, of the perverse nature of having absolute control over someone else.
Student: It's not "absolute" control. There's always a choice.
Me: You're saying that Nancy chose to sleep outside of Flint's bedroom, and have a series of miscarriages over the course of her life?
Student: Yes.
Another student: Duuuuude
Student: She could have hidden or left, as Jacobs did. Slaves ran away all the time. Nancy chose to stay and help out Mrs. Flint, and you're racist if you think otherwise.
I mean, technically he's correct: there's no "absolute" control. But I don't know how to react to a "slaves chose to be slaves" rhetoric, especially when couched as "you're racist if you think slaves lacked agency." Anyone have experience diffusing such situations, or ways to avoid this kind of antagonism?
No advice here, but what a nutter!
Great support staff are amazing and hard to find. I have been working with someone who has been here "forever", but is not anyone's favorite choice. They have never worked in a molecular lab, but they are in charge of the prep for our intro molecular labs. They just don't seem to care that certain issues like broken equipment or not having the right size of racks to hold tubes makes it harder for the students to learn. Giving students things like a broken microscope or a leaking pipette means setting them up to fail. Giving students racks that easily tip over means we are losing money due to spills.
I'm tired of playing nice. I'm documenting everything. Our students deserve better!
Quote from: RatGuy on April 18, 2022, 10:40:43 AM
Today's honors seminar included a discussion of Harriet Jacobs's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl. We discussed the scene in which Mrs. Flint says she loves slave Nancy so much that she wants Nancy buried with her. Jacobs says that this illustrates the weird attachment and affection the owners have for their slaves. This exchange happened during the discussion:
Student: Of course Mrs. Flint feels attachment! If someone does favors for you her entire life, then you're going to feel affection for them.
Me: Not sure "favor" is the right word, because Nancy doesn't have any agency here.
Student: That's degrading! It's pretty racist for you to assume Nancy doesn't have agency.
Me: But that's one of the text's themes, of the perverse nature of having absolute control over someone else.
Student: It's not "absolute" control. There's always a choice.
Me: You're saying that Nancy chose to sleep outside of Flint's bedroom, and have a series of miscarriages over the course of her life?
Student: Yes.
Another student: Duuuuude
Student: She could have hidden or left, as Jacobs did. Slaves ran away all the time. Nancy chose to stay and help out Mrs. Flint, and you're racist if you think otherwise.
I mean, technically he's correct: there's no "absolute" control. But I don't know how to react to a "slaves chose to be slaves" rhetoric, especially when couched as "you're racist if you think slaves lacked agency." Anyone have experience diffusing such situations, or ways to avoid this kind of antagonism?
Depending on how "agency" is used, there's a distinction between "able to perform some action" and "agency." In philosophy, for example, if I place a gun to your head and tell you that you must transport these drugs across a border or I'll kill you, while you have the ability to refrain, you are not typically regarded to have moral agency; you're not held morally responsible. This is important because it can de-escalate the idea that it was the slaves' fault, or something. They could have left, but they're not responsible for not leaving. This preserves the intuition that they are not at fault for their own scenario while acknowledging the truth of action, and preserves the idea of supererogation, or moral heroism, for those who did escape and helped others escape.
Quote from: reverist on April 20, 2022, 07:27:48 AM
Depending on how "agency" is used, there's a distinction between "able to perform some action" and "agency." In philosophy, for example, if I place a gun to your head and tell you that you must transport these drugs across a border or I'll kill you, while you have the ability to refrain, you are not typically regarded to have moral agency; you're not held morally responsible.
Where does Stockholm Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome) come in this?
Stu! The course has 300 people in it! You emailed me once back in November to explain that you have been ill and fallen behind and have anxiety about contacting your professors and that's why things got worse for you. That is the extent of our interactions. TAs taught your seminar and graded your work. I don't know you from Adam.
Why are you giving out my name as a reference in your job applications?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2022, 07:36:59 AM
Quote from: reverist on April 20, 2022, 07:27:48 AM
Depending on how "agency" is used, there's a distinction between "able to perform some action" and "agency." In philosophy, for example, if I place a gun to your head and tell you that you must transport these drugs across a border or I'll kill you, while you have the ability to refrain, you are not typically regarded to have moral agency; you're not held morally responsible.
Where does Stockholm Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome) come in this?
That's a good question! I honestly hadn't thought of that. I'll have to think on it some more, or do what I usually do and copy and paste from Wikipedia...wait, that's our students who do that!
Quote from: reverist on April 20, 2022, 10:03:35 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 20, 2022, 07:36:59 AM
Quote from: reverist on April 20, 2022, 07:27:48 AM
Depending on how "agency" is used, there's a distinction between "able to perform some action" and "agency." In philosophy, for example, if I place a gun to your head and tell you that you must transport these drugs across a border or I'll kill you, while you have the ability to refrain, you are not typically regarded to have moral agency; you're not held morally responsible.
Where does Stockholm Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome) come in this?
That's a good question! I honestly hadn't thought of that. I'll have to think on it some more, or do what I usually do and copy and paste from Wikipedia...wait, that's our students who do that!
There's kind of interthreaduality with this thread about The Cruelty of the Adjunct System by Alexandra Bradner (https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2908.0).
Do adjuncts have agency? Do they have Stockholm syndrome?
'Agency' is a buzzword that I began to notice maybe three or four years ago. Like most all buzzwords, it is overused and rather pretentious, but the notion that undergirds it is real nonetheless. So what about adjuncts' 'agency'? Only those with full options to do x rather than negative-x, or even some alternative y, can really have 'agency' in any given realm of life. Most adjuncts, despite the rather strident rhetoric seen here (and elsewhere) by many people who seem to think that for many if not most of them, it is merely a matter of will to do it (i.e., 'agency'), that would ensure that any adjunct so wishing could simply decide to exercise that 'agency' and leave academia and get a great professional-type job elsewhere, really have no such serious, realistic options, thus have no real 'agency', at least in this regard.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 20, 2022, 11:34:19 PM
'Agency' is a buzzword that I began to notice maybe three or four years ago. Like most all buzzwords, it is overused and rather pretentious, but the notion that undergirds it is real nonetheless. So what about adjuncts' 'agency'? Only those with full options to do x rather than negative-x, or even some alternative y, can really have 'agency' in any given realm of life. Most adjuncts, despite the rather strident rhetoric seen here (and elsewhere) by many people who seem to think that for many if not most of them, it is merely a matter of will to do it (i.e., 'agency'), that would ensure that any adjunct so wishing could simply decide to exercise that 'agency' and leave academia and get a great professional-type job elsewhere, really have no such serious, realistic options, thus have no real 'agency', at least in this regard.
Does getting a degree, including an advanced one,
remove a person's agency? Given that a significant portion of the population has
no degree, how is it that a person with an advanced degree has
less agency?
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 20, 2022, 11:34:19 PM
'Agency' is a buzzword that I began to notice maybe three or four years ago. Like most all buzzwords, it is overused and rather pretentious, but the notion that undergirds it is real nonetheless. So what about adjuncts' 'agency'? Only those with full options to do x rather than negative-x, or even some alternative y, can really have 'agency' in any given realm of life. Most adjuncts, despite the rather strident rhetoric seen here (and elsewhere) by many people who seem to think that for many if not most of them, it is merely a matter of will to do it (i.e., 'agency'), that would ensure that any adjunct so wishing could simply decide to exercise that 'agency' and leave academia and get a great professional-type job elsewhere, really have no such serious, realistic options, thus have no real 'agency', at least in this regard.
Google search for "learned helplessness" or "sunk cost fallacy". Pretty sure that's what you are describing.
New rule from upper administration:
All full time faculty (NTT and TT) are expected to have 10 hours per week of in-person (in your campus office) office hours starting summer semester in which you are available for students to drop in. Office hours will be posted in some type of centralized website TBD.
10 hours? Who has a schedule that allows 10 hours of office hours per week? I currently have 4 posted in-person office hours. No one comes to them. They send questions by email, or I meet with them virtually, but not always at my posted times.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 21, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
New rule from upper administration:
All full time faculty (NTT and TT) are expected to have 10 hours per week of in-person (in your campus office) office hours starting summer semester in which you are available for students to drop in. Office hours will be posted in some type of centralized website TBD.
10 hours? Who has a schedule that allows 10 hours of office hours per week? I currently have 4 posted in-person office hours. No one comes to them. They send questions by email, or I meet with them virtually, but not always at my posted times.
Wow. That's going to make people so pissed off or they will just ingore it. Will campus security be assigned to checking faculty are in their offices?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 21, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
New rule from upper administration:
All full time faculty (NTT and TT) are expected to have 10 hours per week of in-person (in your campus office) office hours starting summer semester in which you are available for students to drop in. Office hours will be posted in some type of centralized website TBD.
10 hours? Who has a schedule that allows 10 hours of office hours per week? I currently have 4 posted in-person office hours. No one comes to them. They send questions by email, or I meet with them virtually, but not always at my posted times.
Wait, what?! Do they mean "you must be in your office at least 10 hours a week"? Or are they trying for the SLAC model of "keep your door open so students can just stop by" approach?
No way I'm devoting my time to being available for help than students are devoting to studying.
Quote from: downer on April 21, 2022, 11:32:21 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 21, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
New rule from upper administration:
All full time faculty (NTT and TT) are expected to have 10 hours per week of in-person (in your campus office) office hours starting summer semester in which you are available for students to drop in. Office hours will be posted in some type of centralized website TBD.
10 hours? Who has a schedule that allows 10 hours of office hours per week? I currently have 4 posted in-person office hours. No one comes to them. They send questions by email, or I meet with them virtually, but not always at my posted times.
Wow. That's going to make people so pissed off or they will just ingore it. Will campus security be assigned to checking faculty are in their offices?
Yes, pissed off seems to be the reaction so far. No clue if anyone will check.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 21, 2022, 12:12:31 PM
Wait, what?! Do they mean "you must be in your office at least 10 hours a week"? Or are they trying for the SLAC model of "keep your door open so students can just stop by" approach?
No way I'm devoting my time to being available for help than students are devoting to studying.
So far, it appears to be "10 hours of office hours for students." I think it's part of the "student success initiative" gone awry. We are definitely not a SLAC, and modeling any policies off of SLAC policies will lead to failure. What would actually lead to better student success would be hiring more faculty to improve the student-faculty ratio and reduce class sizes and course loads (and also make sure departments have adequate administrative support) but of course what the upper administration is going to do is try to get more work out of the current faculty until we fully burn out. But this problem is not only in my university. This is just the latest ill-conceived policy here.
Where the university sets a minimum, I see a maximum. I will be in my office NO MORE THAN 10 hours per week. Feel free to check.
"learned helplessness' and 'sunk cost fallacy' are two different things, but both may well be at play for many adjuncts. Still, my point is different, namely, that, however much 'agency' one assumes an adjunct has, he cannot just get that great non-academic job-- this is true for the vast majority of PhD possessing folks, esp those outside of STEM and those over 40. Really, they cannot. Learned helplessness and the sunk cost fallacy do not come into play here-- to assume that an adjunct failing to obtain such a job is sufffering from/ guilty of either of these, without evidence, is insulting.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 21, 2022, 09:30:52 PM
"learned helplessness' and 'sunk cost fallacy' are two different things, but both may well be at play for many adjuncts. Still, my point is different, namely, that, however much 'agency' one assumes an adjunct has, he cannot just get that great non-academic job
So are all of the great jobs that people with humanities BAs are supposed to be easily able to get much worse than the kind of jobs people with humanities PhDs should get?
If a BA gives a person lots of decent career options, and a PhD eliminates most of those while opening a very narrow
sliver of others, (i.e. academia), then it seems that mostly the PhD raises
expectations, while actually reducing
possibilities.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 21, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
New rule from upper administration:
All full time faculty (NTT and TT) are expected to have 10 hours per week of in-person (in your campus office) office hours starting summer semester in which you are available for students to drop in. Office hours will be posted in some type of centralized website TBD.
10 hours? Who has a schedule that allows 10 hours of office hours per week? I currently have 4 posted in-person office hours. No one comes to them. They send questions by email, or I meet with them virtually, but not always at my posted times.
Our CC requires 10 office hours per week, plus an additional hour for each overload section taught. Except for those of us teaching English courses--we get a 4/4 (rather than 5/5) load, but have to do an additional 3 office hours per week (so, 13).
Of course, CCs are much different than R1/"big" schools, but at 10 or 13, we're even on the high end of what I hear people at other CCs have to do. The thinking seems to be that CC students need more hand holding/face time, but even at that, I can count on one hand the number of students who have come to my office hours over each semester of the past five years. At least the requirement gives me some structured grading time.
I'm physically IN my office most of the time I'm on campus since my job is mostly administrative and project management. But I am busy! And my office door is by a main entrance to the building. I often close my door and act like I'm not here so that I don't get an endless stream of folks looking for bathrooms, classrooms, other faculty, etc.
I don't have 10 hours a week to be "on call" for questions. No one has that time! And 99% of the questions I get from students are about the things I mentioned above, not about course materials.
Marshwiggle is also correct to note that, for many non-academic or academic-adjacent employers, that humanities BA is a much better choice than the humanities PhD (unless said PhD has experience specific to the job in question). These people just aren't up for hiring that career-changing PhD, at least, not for the most part. There are of course a wide variety of reasons why this is the case, some more significant than others, but that it is, is without question.
Stu lied about attending a talk (wrote a bs summary about topics not discussed) for an extra credit assignment. How do I know? I was at the talk. Sigh. Why do they waste my time?
Since this was an extra credit assignment, what do you plan to do about this?
I plan to talk to the student to see if stu will 'fess up.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 24, 2022, 08:17:33 PM
Stu lied about attending a talk (wrote a bs summary about topics not discussed) for an extra credit assignment. How do I know? I was at the talk. Sigh. Why do they waste my time?
I've stopped being surprised about the blatant lies.
Stu missed the deadline for an assignment and claimed that the assignment was complete. The following day I advised Stu that I would extend the deadline. A day passes; crickets. I once again remind Stu that the deadline has been extended. Stu emails me to let me know that Stu needs several hours to complete the assignment, and later emails me the assignment as a file attachment. Course policies? All assignments must be uploaded in the assignment folders; no emailed attachment.
And if he doth not fess up? What kinds of punishments can be imposed for such misconduct on extra credit assignments?
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 25, 2022, 11:10:11 PM
And if he doth not fess up? What kinds of punishments can be imposed for such misconduct on extra credit assignments?
Zero credit.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 25, 2022, 11:10:11 PM
And if he doth not fess up? What kinds of punishments can be imposed for such misconduct on extra credit assignments?
Students who cheat on any assignment can be reported to the appropriate dean. Policies vary from place to place. At some places, students could given a failing grade for the course and a note in their transcript.
I don't want to say "I told you so" to a new instructor, but if you don't specify that students have to attend class to get participation points and use an online system that students can log into from anywhere, you are basically allowing students to earn credit for, you know, NOT participating. All they need is a reminder on their phone or a friend on Discord. It's not even cheating if you didn't make it clear that they could only earn points if they were physically in the room.
This is similar to cheating on the extra credit assignment. Students were required to write a brief proposal (which did not have strict formal requirements) for their term papers and Stu plagiarized from the fountain of all knowledge, Wikipedia. What to do?
Zero for the assignment, minimally.
Call them into the office and ask them to explain the W'pedia similarities (did they, perchance, write the W'pedia article?....ahem).
If they can't explain, it's to the ethics committee they go.
M.
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 25, 2022, 11:10:11 PM
And if he doth not fess up? What kinds of punishments can be imposed for such misconduct on extra credit assignments?
I follow university policies for all assignments that contain plagiarism/academic dishonesty, including extra credit. The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Consequences for plagiarism/academic dishonesty on
any assignment range from having to re-do the assignment (sometimes in our introductory courses if it's a citation problem) to failure of the course (and a marker on the transcript, as downer notes), per our University policies.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 26, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Look, I understand you're upset about this, but please don't break the universe for the rest of us.
Quote from: ergative on April 26, 2022, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 26, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Look, I understand you're upset about this, but please don't break the universe for the rest of us.
Oops, my goal today was to
not break the universe. Can I have a do-over?
Quote from: ergative on April 26, 2022, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 26, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Look, I understand you're upset about this, but please don't break the universe for the rest of us.
Unfortunately, several of my students have already broken the universe with their academic misconduct. Faking your data in a science class is not a good idea. For context, think: the day the Earth stood still. It is just not going to happen in real life, folks.
Quote from: ergative on April 26, 2022, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 26, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Look, I understand you're upset about this, but please don't break the universe for the rest of us.
I entered a denominator of 0 into my gradebook once. It broke my gradebook, but the universe was fine. The support staff for D2L were happy to tell me it was all my fault.
A particular student has complained multiple times about there being no videos for a particular chapter in my online class. Twice now, I've told him where they are (they are under a section labeled "Videos") and another instructor has also told him they are there. Seriously, this is why I drink, people!
In the last 2 days I have had to explain to 3 different students that next week is Final exam week. No we do not have a normal class schedule, you only show up to the designated exam time. These are juniors and seniors. We have been back to in person classes for over a year now, so COVID does not explain this level of confusion.
I also shocked a student when I explained that "walking" through graduation the day after finals ends does not necessarily guarantee that you have passed all your classes. She seriously thought that we stayed up all night grading the seniors papers so we could pull them out of the line if they failed. Oy!
Quote from: mythbuster on April 27, 2022, 12:42:03 PM
In the last 2 days I have had to explain to 3 different students that next week is Final exam week. No we do not have a normal class schedule, you only show up to the designated exam time. These are juniors and seniors. We have been back to in person classes for over a year now, so COVID does not explain this level of confusion.
I also shocked a student when I explained that "walking" through graduation the day after finals ends does not necessarily guarantee that you have passed all your classes. She seriously thought that we stayed up all night grading the seniors papers so we could pull them out of the line if they failed. Oy!
I had to do that at a previous job! Classes with "potentially graduating seniors" had to give early exams, report grades ASAP, and someone printed the diplomas the night before the ceremony. And the school president had to sign all of them (I would have invested in a stamp). We didn't pull the students out of line, but they found out if they actually graduated when they opened their diploma folder.
It's OK, I've had to explain to students that "taking" a class is not sufficient. You also have to earn a passing grade for it to count towards your degree. "But I took [basketweaving]! What do you mean I need X more credits?"
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 27, 2022, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on April 27, 2022, 12:42:03 PM
In the last 2 days I have had to explain to 3 different students that next week is Final exam week. No we do not have a normal class schedule, you only show up to the designated exam time. These are juniors and seniors. We have been back to in person classes for over a year now, so COVID does not explain this level of confusion.
I also shocked a student when I explained that "walking" through graduation the day after finals ends does not necessarily guarantee that you have passed all your classes. She seriously thought that we stayed up all night grading the seniors papers so we could pull them out of the line if they failed. Oy!
I had to do that at a previous job! Classes with "potentially graduating seniors" had to give early exams, report grades ASAP, and someone printed the diplomas the night before the ceremony. And the school president had to sign all of them (I would have invested in a stamp). We didn't pull the students out of line, but they found out if they actually graduated when they opened their diploma folder.
It's OK, I've had to explain to students that "taking" a class is not sufficient. You also have to earn a passing grade for it to count towards your degree. "But I took [basketweaving]! What do you mean I need X more credits?"
We have to grade graduating students early so their degrees can be verified for graduation, but we have several days at least to do so (we have a senior week after finals). Those short a few credits can still walk and then finish up with summer classes, which seems humane. No one gets the actual diploma at commencement, just the cover with a congratulatory message inside-- the real one they have to pick up from the registrar's office.
Exams end on a Friday and graduation is on either the Saturday or the Sunday. Everybody walks the stage, gets the grad photos, etc. But there's no diploma inside the folder. They will get that in the mail once all grades are in and, most importantly, when the uni has received any outstanding tuition payments, library fines, or parking tickets.
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 27, 2022, 02:41:54 PM
Exams end on a Friday and graduation is on either the Saturday or the Sunday. Everybody walks the stage, gets the grad photos, etc. But there's no diploma inside the folder. They will get that in the mail once all grades are in and, most importantly, when the uni has received any outstanding tuition payments, library fines, or parking tickets.
This is very different from the way it's done in Canada. Exams are in April, and graduation is typically in June, so the only people who get to walk across the stage and receive their actual diploma are those who completed all of the requirements. (That also means awards and so on can be presented based on that performance.)
And yes, if someone is from across the country (or even a different country) they can decide if it's worth their while to come to the ceremony or just get their degree in the mail. Some students go on a trip for a few weeks between exams and graduation, since they'll probably start full-time employment pretty soon after graduation.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 27, 2022, 03:41:30 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 27, 2022, 02:41:54 PM
Exams end on a Friday and graduation is on either the Saturday or the Sunday. Everybody walks the stage, gets the grad photos, etc. But there's no diploma inside the folder. They will get that in the mail once all grades are in and, most importantly, when the uni has received any outstanding tuition payments, library fines, or parking tickets.
This is very different from the way it's done in Canada. Exams are in April, and graduation is typically in June, so the only people who get to walk across the stage and receive their actual diploma are those who completed all of the requirements. (That also means awards and so on can be presented based on that performance.)
And yes, if someone is from across the country (or even a different country) they can decide if it's worth their while to come to the ceremony or just get their degree in the mail. Some students go on a trip for a few weeks between exams and graduation, since they'll probably start full-time employment pretty soon after graduation.
I did my undergrad at U Toronto and that was also my experience.
Unfortunately, Artem U is in a location that, once the little darlin's have buggered off, they're quite unlikely to come back for something as dull as presidential speeches and the rest of the less than thrilling events at convocation.
Quote from: secundem_artem on April 27, 2022, 04:08:50 PM
I did my undergrad at U Toronto and that was also my experience.
Unfortunately, Artem U is in a location that, once the little darlin's have buggered off, they're quite unlikely to come back for something as dull as presidential speeches and the rest of the less than thrilling events at convocation.
For various reasons, a lot of my students don't participate in graduation either. Then there's this speech that is given every. single. year. Yes, the same exact speech. That and rarely seeing my students participate makes graduation extra dull. I feel like a living prop - that's it, we're like movie extras.
It is the last day of the semester. 5 of 20 students have done NO WORK AT ALL. The rest are on pace to pass.
Of the 5, 3 have emailed begging nor an extension (no), one for an incomplete (also no) and one to complain that he was never given any work to do.
Guess which of those 5 never took the syllabus quiz.
I was about to bang my head, but then I realized 75% of my class are not screw-ups. That's a record!
Off to the Inhale thread.....
I write a word problem with three sentences for an exam, and many of my students apparently cannot understand the problem. They simply cannot read and keep in their heads three sentences of information.
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
Maybe I should tell them that, when I was an undergrad, some of my humanities classes required 150 or more pages of dense reading, reading that had to be understood reading carefully line by line, per week. I have a feeling half of them would drop dead on the spot from shock.
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
I write a word problem with three sentences for an exam, and many of my students apparently cannot understand the problem. They simply cannot read and keep in their heads three sentences of information.
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
Maybe I should tell them that, when I was an undergrad, some of my humanities classes required 150 or more pages of dense reading, reading that had to be understood reading carefully line by line, per week. I have a feeling half of them would drop dead on the spot from shock.
Key words are the work of Satan! In one study (don't have a citation) adults were asked to to do 10 simple problems. All contained two natural numbers, all contained the word "left", and none were subtraction problems. 80% of the subjects subtracted on all problems.
I also told my students I doubt they would have done so if the problem featured "Mr. Left" as the instance. The combo of key word instruction along with ALWAYS having one topic homework in school however was deadly to thinking.
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
I write a word problem with three sentences for an exam, and many of my students apparently cannot understand the problem. They simply cannot read and keep in their heads three sentences of information.
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
Maybe I should tell them that, when I was an undergrad, some of my humanities classes required 150 or more pages of dense reading, reading that had to be understood reading carefully line by line, per week. I have a feeling half of them would drop dead on the spot from shock.
In Piagetian terms, they haven't passed into the hypothetical-deductive thinking phase of development (usually thought to occur between ages 8-12 in the average population).
This theory is not everywhere accepted, but the idea was that one had to be able to maintain two variables in mind at the same time--say, height and width--and determine whether a tall container held more or less water than a wide one.
in some cases the amounts might be the same, or a counter-intuitive result (the tall one might hold less if it were narrower) might obtain; those who had reached that stage of thinking would multiply out the height by the width for each container and predict based on the result; those who were not at that point yet would predict on appearances alone, usually guessing, say, the taller one as holding more even if it were very narrow, etc.
Of course, we've also seen governmental figures in their 70s who can't hold two ideas in mind at the same time...
M.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 02, 2022, 01:14:39 PM
The combo of key word instruction along with ALWAYS having one topic homework in school however was deadly to thinking.
Yep. Also, I find autograded work very helpful for students who are learning computations, but this is one place where autograded homework w/multiple attempts is not helpful unless the problem is sufficiently randomized to where the same operation is not always required (which is extremely rare). They pick an operation, apply it to two numbers that they see, look at the answer, "Oh they added, I should have added" and continue with 0 understanding as to why they should have added.
And if it's not in the homework system, they just skip it and eat the point loss.
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
I write a word problem with three sentences for an exam, and many of my students apparently cannot understand the problem. They simply cannot read and keep in their heads three sentences of information.
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
Maybe I should tell them that, when I was an undergrad, some of my humanities classes required 150 or more pages of dense reading, reading that had to be understood reading carefully line by line, per week. I have a feeling half of them would drop dead on the spot from shock.
OK boomer. Long-form reading is sooo 20th century.
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
I write a word problem with three sentences for an exam, and many of my students apparently cannot understand the problem. They simply cannot read and keep in their heads three sentences of information.
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
That's incredibly stupid. At least a decade ago, when I was doing tutorials, I noticed that some textbooks are already including spurious information in problems to deal with this kind of approach. Just trying to find a formula with the "right" quantities in it won't work if you don't realize which quantities are necessary and which ones aren't. A pox on the high school teachers and/or eduwonks who "taught" students this idiotic approach.
One of my freshpeeps messaged me in Canvas telling me (not asking) that he would turn in his final project by midnight tonight, since that's when he thought the deadline was, instead of 8 AM yesterday. I replied and told him the dropbox was closed, to attach what he had finished to a reply to this message, and turn it in NOW, with a late penalty, or don't turn it in at all. He said it wasn't his fault for not knowing when the deadline was. It's been posted in the Canvas calendar since day 1 of the semester, and I reminded them all in lab last week of the due date/time, he was in class that day. My reply said, "Refer to the instructions in the previous message."
My class has 12 students in it. Five of them are out with Covid. The uni hosted its own superspreader event last week and the predictable happened.
Quote from: secundem_artem on May 03, 2022, 08:39:56 AM
My class has 12 students in it. Five of them are out with Covid. The uni hosted its own superspreader event last week and the predictable happened.
Our COVID cases and number of folks out with other non-COVID illness went up a week after masks become "encouraged" but no longer "required". And the switch from "take the Wellness survey every day" to "take this OTHER survey only if you are sick/to report a positive test/other" has made it really confusing for folks. It's a mess. I just hope to make it to the end of Spring.
Quote from: Chemystery on April 26, 2022, 07:47:57 PM
Quote from: ergative on April 26, 2022, 02:24:52 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on April 26, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
The student has submitted the assignment for a grade; it's just that the denominator in the grade book is 0.
Look, I understand you're upset about this, but please don't break the universe for the rest of us.
I entered a denominator of 0 into my gradebook once. It broke my gradebook, but the universe was fine. The support staff for D2L were happy to tell me it was all my fault.
I have multiple columns in my Excel gradebook with #DIV/0! errors in them right now. The errors will be resolved when the last item in that category is graded or when it's created and I know how many points are in it. There are other columns with formulas that avoid the errors so I can keep an eye on the grades as the term goes on.
Stu's revised term paper proposal should have been submitted nearly a month ago for my approval. Instead Stu emails me an outline of the final paper the day before it's due and wants to show up to my office hours--which are less than 2 hours before the deadline--so that I can provide feedback.
My email response time is one business day, so I will send a reply tomorrow (when the paper is due).
Argghh!
Students, safety goggles do not work if they are not ON YOUR FACE. Do I need to make an analogy to other safety equipment (seatbelts, bike helmets, lifejackets, etc.)? It doesn't protect you if you don't wear it properly.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2022, 04:46:15 PM
Argghh!
Students, safety goggles do not work if they are not ON YOUR FACE. Do I need to make an analogy to other safety equipment (seatbelts, bike helmets, lifejackets, etc.)? It doesn't protect you if you don't wear it properly.
If safety goggles are face masks, then wearing them is optional!
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 03, 2022, 04:46:15 PM
Argghh!
Students, safety goggles do not work if they are not ON YOUR FACE. Do I need to make an analogy to other safety equipment (seatbelts, bike helmets, lifejackets, etc.)? It doesn't protect you if you don't wear it properly.
And on your face does not mean protecting your forehead. I can relate.
I had a student tell me (note: tell, not ask) that they were going to make-up the exam a couple of days after originally scheduled. Another emailed to say that they finished the late work and they are ready to turn it in. It's been weeks since it was due. Is it the end of the term yet?
Todays office hours during finals week was the parade of begging and whining. I wish we had a tracker for when students access the Canvas gradebook. I wonder how many jus live in total denial all semester? The opposite of the grade obsessives.
Today included: Students who are convinced that if they are graduating this Friday, how can they fail the class? Walking through the ceremony and graduating are NOT the same thing.
The best is the kid who has a D in lab. He was incapable of showing up on time ever all semester. I know from talking to the lab instructor that this is NOT just a few minutes, but rather 30 minutes+ late. His poor lab attendance grade may be difference between passing and not. I have little sympathy as I know he was warned repeatedly about being late.
When I mentioned that punctuality is an important life skill, he grimaced. NOT the answer he was looking for.
Quote from: mythbuster on May 04, 2022, 02:13:40 PM
Todays office hours during finals week was the parade of begging and whining. I wish we had a tracker for when students access the Canvas gradebook. I wonder how many jus live in total denial all semester? The opposite of the grade obsessives.
What's really bad is when I go into their access record and see 90 accesses throughout the semester and yet apparently they didn't believe the <40% they kept seeing.
Primary source listed by Stu:
Quote
Steinbeck, John. The Chrysanthemums. Erscheinungsort nicht ermittelbar: Verlag nicht ermittelbar, 1938. Print.
Language used in this course: English
Language used in the modules, readings, videos, handouts, websites, and assignments: English
Are we using German in this course: No
All Stu had to do was to cite the PDF version of the story Stu downloaded from Canvas; Stu obviously didn't buy the textbook so couldn't follow the directions to look up this information on page x as directed (used books cost less than $10). Stu's shortcuts will be Stu's downfall.
Headbang, headbang, headbang!
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 05:35:10 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
That's incredibly stupid. At least a decade ago, when I was doing tutorials, I noticed that some textbooks are already including spurious information in problems to deal with this kind of approach. Just trying to find a formula with the "right" quantities in it won't work if you don't realize which quantities are necessary and which ones aren't. A pox on the high school teachers and/or eduwonks who "taught" students this idiotic approach.
It is incredibly stupid, but when you have students who are functionally illiterate and your job is to raise their scores on a standardized test by a couple points, this is the strategy that works.
And - complain all you want about the standardized tests - but before them, there were lots of poorly resourced schools where the students learned absolutely nothing, and, with the standardized tests, the students now actually learn not enough, but not absolutely nothing either.
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 04, 2022, 06:02:48 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 05:35:10 AM
Quote from: quasihumanist on May 02, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
Unfortunately, they have previously been taught to do word problems by finding the key words and using them to guess at what the problem meant.
That's incredibly stupid. At least a decade ago, when I was doing tutorials, I noticed that some textbooks are already including spurious information in problems to deal with this kind of approach. Just trying to find a formula with the "right" quantities in it won't work if you don't realize which quantities are necessary and which ones aren't. A pox on the high school teachers and/or eduwonks who "taught" students this idiotic approach.
It is incredibly stupid, but when you have students who are functionally illiterate and your job is to raise their scores on a standardized test by a couple points, this is the strategy that works.
And - complain all you want about the standardized tests - but before them, there were lots of poorly resourced schools where the students learned absolutely nothing, and, with the standardized tests, the students now actually learn not enough, but not absolutely nothing either.
FWIW, I'm not against standardized tests. One of the legitimate uses for standardized tests is to be able to identify how *schools are doing, and without the ability of individual teachers or administrators to fudge the grades.
(* Schools in lower SES regions typically don't do as well as schools in higher SES regions, for many reasons. David Johnson (https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/attachments/research_papers/mixed/policystudy_40.pdf) used census data to correlate Ontario test scores with SES, so that schools could be evaluated
relative to their SES. So, some schools in high SES areas do much worse
than expected, and some schools in low SES areas do much better
than expected. Those schools that do much better than expected are desirable, and those that do much worse than expected should be avoided.)
On Friday late afternoon, I'm chatting with our (fabulous) administrative assistant (who now has the work of 3 people) when a lost student wanders in looking for his professor for his summer course which starts Monday.
Professor is not in the building. Lost student says that he wants to tell his professor that he will need remote access to the course because of a conflict with his work schedule. Administrative assistant says that in-person courses are no longer required to have virtual access (BECAUSE WE ARE BACK TO NORMAL, PER ADMINSTRATION). Lost student replies "Well, he'll have to give me remote access or I'll be 45 minutes late to every class, and he'll just have to deal with it" and walks out.
Alrighty then. Good luck with that.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 08, 2022, 08:32:00 AM
On Friday late afternoon, I'm chatting with our (fabulous) administrative assistant (who now has the work of 3 people) when a lost student wanders in looking for his professor for his summer course which starts Monday.
Professor is not in the building. Lost student says that he wants to tell his professor that he will need remote access to the course because of a conflict with his work schedule. Administrative assistant says that in-person courses are no longer required to have virtual access (BECAUSE WE ARE BACK TO NORMAL, PER ADMINSTRATION). Lost student replies "Well, he'll have to give me remote access or I'll be 45 minutes late to every class, and he'll just have to deal with it" and walks out.
Alrighty then. Good luck with that.
Wtf? Entitled much? Damn. Well, we are in the
service industry.
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to try to use it to game the system.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to try to use it to game the system.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to feel comfortable asking for accommodations they otherwise wouldn't otherwise have the nerve to request.
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
I'm sure that many of the students who fail because of ghosting the class are having a tough time. People I know who did that in college were usually going through something. They either just got overwhelmed and quit trying, or they couldn't balance school with other stressors in their life, or they had other priorities but couldn't be honest with themselves and decide to either refocus or withdraw. Usually stuff like that is linked to anxiety or depression.
I try to make sure I'm giving the same sort of accommodations and flexibility to students with mental health issues as those with physical issues. The problem is that we can't really do anything for students who aren't communicating with us and trying to keep up throughout the semester. That's often really difficult for students struggling with anxiety or depression because the same things keeping them from doing the work are also keeping them from communicating with us.
Sometimes people probably just need to get to a crisis point to take action with mental health problems. Failing a semester of classes can make a student realize that they need to do something. That might be going to therapy and/or getting appropriate medication, but it could also be deciding they need to take some time away from school, or whatever.
Quote from: Caracal on May 09, 2022, 08:02:51 AM
I try to make sure I'm giving the same sort of accommodations and flexibility to students with mental health issues as those with physical issues.
This is why it's far better to have course policies like "2 lowest assignments get dropped" that apply to
everyone so that instructors aren't in the position of having to try and evaluate the legitimacy and the severity of every issue that may come up.
Any sort of judgement calls are going to lead to potential unfairness.
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 07:38:49 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to try to use it to game the system.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to feel comfortable asking for accommodations they otherwise wouldn't otherwise have the nerve to request.
I'm all for supporting student mental health, but an incomplete is not a reasonable accommodation if they have ghosted the whole semester. They cannot make up a whole semester for work after the fact. The compassionate option for these cases is to let them withdraw from the semester up through the last day of finals, which is what we do at my institution-- yes, they've wasted a semester of tuition, but that way it doesn't kill their GPA-- it is as if the classes never existed.
Quote from: Puget on May 09, 2022, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 07:38:49 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to try to use it to game the system.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to feel comfortable asking for accommodations they otherwise wouldn't otherwise have the nerve to request.
I'm all for supporting student mental health, but an incomplete is not a reasonable accommodation if they have ghosted the whole semester. They cannot make up a whole semester for work after the fact. The compassionate option for these cases is to let them withdraw from the semester up through the last day of finals, which is what we do at my institution-- yes, they've wasted a semester of tuition, but that way it doesn't kill their GPA-- it is as if the classes never existed.
And presumably in that case, it's done at the
institutional level, rather than by an individual instructor, which is the appropriate place since a problems like that will affect
all of a student's courses.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 10:34:02 AM
Quote from: Puget on May 09, 2022, 09:08:25 AM
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 07:38:49 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 07:30:56 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 09, 2022, 07:07:03 AM
Student who never came to class or accessed the LMS emailed me today asking for an incomplete. He claims that he has "severe anxiety" and "couldn't get out of bed" and "I know the semester is already over." I told him that's not what Incompletes are for.
But I'll say this -- I have 108 students across 4 classes, and the ones who failed are the ones who either ghosted or had shoddy attendance. Maybe 4 or 5 Fs in that batch of 108. All of them have requested a change to their final grades because they have some sort of anxiety (or, as they say "mental health reasons"). I'm not one who puts stock in the theory that COVID year ruined students, but maybe there's something to that.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to try to use it to game the system.
Or maybe they've all just heard enough talk about that to feel comfortable asking for accommodations they otherwise wouldn't otherwise have the nerve to request.
I'm all for supporting student mental health, but an incomplete is not a reasonable accommodation if they have ghosted the whole semester. They cannot make up a whole semester for work after the fact. The compassionate option for these cases is to let them withdraw from the semester up through the last day of finals, which is what we do at my institution-- yes, they've wasted a semester of tuition, but that way it doesn't kill their GPA-- it is as if the classes never existed.
And presumably in that case, it's done at the institutional level, rather than by an individual instructor, which is the appropriate place since a problems like that will affect all of a student's courses.
Correct, it goes through their staff advisor in academic services. The staff advisors are mostly great, and will work with the instructor and student when a student is struggling. Just emailed one today about a student who has totally ghosted their term paper and isn't responding to my messages.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 08:16:30 AM
This is why it's far better to have course policies like "2 lowest assignments get dropped" that apply to everyone so that instructors aren't in the position of having to try and evaluate the legitimacy and the severity of every issue that may come up. Any sort of judgement calls are going to lead to potential unfairness.
What seems more common (although it could just be my perception) is that students want make-ups for the assignments where I do drop the lowest. They'll say they had <some good reason>, so I'll respond, "Don't worry about it. That's why I drop a score." and they answer that they should still get a make-up.
As for the students that ghost most of the term - yep, send them to the office that handles late withdrawals. Incompletes aren't reasonable for those who miss half the term.
Quote from: dr_evil on May 09, 2022, 12:05:17 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 08:16:30 AM
This is why it's far better to have course policies like "2 lowest assignments get dropped" that apply to everyone so that instructors aren't in the position of having to try and evaluate the legitimacy and the severity of every issue that may come up. Any sort of judgement calls are going to lead to potential unfairness.
What seems more common (although it could just be my perception) is that students want make-ups for the assignments where I do drop the lowest. They'll say they had <some good reason>, so I'll respond, "Don't worry about it. That's why I drop a score." and they answer that they should still get a make-up.
Yes, I ran into this too at my old institution. The students felt wildly entitled there. My current institution is less grade-grubby, although I did get a grade complaint just today from a student who didn't like the grade they got on their essay that was returned a month ago.
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 02:04:30 PM
<snipped other quotes>
Yes, I ran into this too at my old institution. The students felt wildly entitled there. My current institution is less grade-grubby, although I did get a grade complaint just today from a student who didn't like the grade they got on their essay that was returned a month ago.
End of the term approaching? Suddenly, the students have realized they are in danger of not passing or not getting an A, which is when the grade grubbing really gets going.
The entitlement here has been growing. I've had multiple requests (different students) for "do overs" on assignments that they didn't like their grade on. They aren't arguing that the grade is wrong, but that they should get to redo it for a better grade.
Quote from: dr_evil on May 09, 2022, 02:19:42 PM
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 02:04:30 PM
<snipped other quotes>
Yes, I ran into this too at my old institution. The students felt wildly entitled there. My current institution is less grade-grubby, although I did get a grade complaint just today from a student who didn't like the grade they got on their essay that was returned a month ago.
End of the term approaching? Suddenly, the students have realized they are in danger of not passing or not getting an A, which is when the grade grubbing really gets going.
The entitlement here has been growing. I've had multiple requests (different students) for "do overs" on assignments that they didn't like their grade on. They aren't arguing that the grade is wrong, but that they should get to redo it for a better grade.
Just had a student send me an email with make up work attached at 5pm today. Any make-ups were due by 5pm last
Friday and they needed to be submitted in Blackboard...
My head banging moment: student who do not want to keep their graded assignments, even though they know that they have a midterm exam that is going to be very similar to the questions on their assignments. Then they say that they "don't know what to study". Aargh!
Quote from: dr_evil on May 09, 2022, 02:19:42 PM
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 02:04:30 PM
<snipped other quotes>
Yes, I ran into this too at my old institution. The students felt wildly entitled there. My current institution is less grade-grubby, although I did get a grade complaint just today from a student who didn't like the grade they got on their essay that was returned a month ago.
End of the term approaching? Suddenly, the students have realized they are in danger of not passing or not getting an A, which is when the grade grubbing really gets going.
The entitlement here has been growing. I've had multiple requests (different students) for "do overs" on assignments that they didn't like their grade on. They aren't arguing that the grade is wrong, but that they should get to redo it for a better grade.
I wonder if some of this is students trying to skimp on class effort, then seeing from their grades that they skimped too much and wanting a do-over.
Quote from: dr_evil on May 09, 2022, 02:19:42 PM
Quote from: ergative on May 09, 2022, 02:04:30 PM
<snipped other quotes>
Yes, I ran into this too at my old institution. The students felt wildly entitled there. My current institution is less grade-grubby, although I did get a grade complaint just today from a student who didn't like the grade they got on their essay that was returned a month ago.
End of the term approaching? Suddenly, the students have realized they are in danger of not passing or not getting an A, which is when the grade grubbing really gets going.
The entitlement here has been growing. I've had multiple requests (different students) for "do overs" on assignments that they didn't like their grade on. They aren't arguing that the grade is wrong, but that they should get to redo it for a better grade.
I really think a lot of schools used "letting them do it over" during COVID; I've started to run into students who are seemingly offended that I don't let them redo assignments over for a better grade, or who just sent it to me or upload it assuming I'll grade it much more than I ever have in the past (including in this job). I realize redoing assignments has a pedagogical value, but I've seen it abused too much ("I'll slack/plagiarize this, and if it gets through great, and if it doesn't I'll just do it over until I get a grade I like"). Plus, I teach five sections (38 students per section, at least at first) each semester of a fairly writing-intensive online course, and I simply don't have the time/energy to regrade dozens of do-overs for each assignment. So I drop one or two of everything instead.
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 04:23:48 PM
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Yes, and this must be worn on one's clothing where everybody can see it!
Now, that would be incentives to work wonders!
Actually, no. The difficulty is that many, many students don't actually have to learn anything at college to succeed in life. They just have to have been there. And they know it. Their behavior shows that they know it.
Sure, some of them are trying to game the system, but educators, whether k12 or higher ed, are probaby fooling themselves/ engaging in wishful thinking, when/if they assume that covid is all over, AND that the students, who of course had to go through the pandemic, should be just 'back to normal', with no ongoing educational, social, and psychological aftereffects or outright deficits (though, of course, not all of them will have such). We will have to make hard choices, and direct resources to ameliorating problems we are just not used to having to deal with.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 04:23:48 PM
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Actually, I have done a version of this, where I made assignments worth about 1030 points over the semester, then graded each assignment out of its total point value. At 600 points (well, 595), I tell a student he or she is passing. At 700, the student has "locked in" a C. One only needs to hit 900 points for an "A," but the extra 30 points above 1000 function as drop grades.
I have done it in graduate classes out of 100 points; once the students understand why the grade on the essay is in the teens (because it's out of 20 points) it works pretty well.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on May 10, 2022, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 04:23:48 PM
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Actually, I have done a version of this, where I made assignments worth about 1030 points over the semester, then graded each assignment out of its total point value. At 600 points (well, 595), I tell a student he or she is passing. At 700, the student has "locked in" a C. One only needs to hit 900 points for an "A," but the extra 30 points above 1000 function as drop grades.
I have done it in graduate classes out of 100 points; once the students understand why the grade on the essay is in the teens (because it's out of 20 points) it works pretty well.
AR.
I use cumulative grades as well, and I think they should be the norm. "This is what you would get on the course if you didn't do anything more after today." The only tricky part is making it clear how much runway they have left; i.e. "This is the highest grade you could get if you aced everything from this point on."
Quote from: AvidReader on May 10, 2022, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 04:23:48 PM
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Actually, I have done a version of this, where I made assignments worth about 1030 points over the semester, then graded each assignment out of its total point value. At 600 points (well, 595), I tell a student he or she is passing. At 700, the student has "locked in" a C. One only needs to hit 900 points for an "A," but the extra 30 points above 1000 function as drop grades.
I have done it in graduate classes out of 100 points; once the students understand why the grade on the essay is in the teens (because it's out of 20 points) it works pretty well.
AR.
I also use a point system similar to this. I thought it would make sense to students, but alas, some of them just do not get it. Maybe I could color code it? Some students seem to like anything but numbers.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 10, 2022, 10:11:18 AM
Quote from: AvidReader on May 10, 2022, 01:08:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 09, 2022, 04:23:48 PM
Maybe what we need is a mastery-based system where every student gets a "grade thermometer" like they use in fundraising campaigns, that shows YOUR CURRENT GRADE. As they hand in more stuff, the mercury rises until they get the grade they want and they can cash out. (They'd probably be amazed at how little some things move the scale.)
Actually, I have done a version of this, where I made assignments worth about 1030 points over the semester, then graded each assignment out of its total point value. At 600 points (well, 595), I tell a student he or she is passing. At 700, the student has "locked in" a C. One only needs to hit 900 points for an "A," but the extra 30 points above 1000 function as drop grades.
I have done it in graduate classes out of 100 points; once the students understand why the grade on the essay is in the teens (because it's out of 20 points) it works pretty well.
AR.
I also use a point system similar to this. I thought it would make sense to students, but alas, some of them just do not get it. Maybe I could color code it? Some students seem to like anything but numbers.
Yeah, I like the idea. I hate the "I was getting an A, but now I'm not" emails. However, students at my school have really come to expect to see their grade in that format, and I suspect I would be deluged with emails from students alarmed that their grade says they are failing the course and complaining about how unclear I am. If it was the norm, I think it would work, but it isn't worth it for me to try to go against the grain...
I had to turn OFF the "display grade in percent" feature since students would freak out that their A+ was now a B- after they turned in their second assignment. Uh, you had an A+ on the 5 point, open-note, highest of 2 attempts, syllabus quiz. You now have 18 of 20 possible points. There are over 400 in the course. Calm down.
I'm getting to the end of the term and it's time for the "magical thinking math" to begin! I honestly prefer when I can tell a student that it is not mathematically possible to pass compared to "it's technically, mathematically possible, but given that you earned a failing grade on the other exams, there is no way you'll earn 100% on the final". We are allowing very late drops with no penalty. I have never had to adjust my point cutoffs since there are a LOT of formative assessments built in (aka easy points to earn).
I am somehow the best expert on how to use our CMS for online exams. The fellow who's in charge of all the details told our admin team the wrong thing, and so the exam opened this morning and students weren't able to submit their answers and were freaking out.
'We need to change [setting],' said I.
'Oh, no!' said Admin person. '[Fellow in charge] said that we shouldn't change [setting] because [bad thing].'
'But look,' I said. 'I changed the setting, and now students who are having difficulties are no longer having difficulties and [bad thing] has not happened. Furthermore, here is [other setting] that is responsible for [bad thing]. See how [other setting] is different from [setting]?'
'Oh, you are such a whizz at this!' said Admin person. 'Will you please double check all these other classes that are not your responsibility to confirm that their settings are correct?'
THIS IS NOT MY JOB! THIS IS YOUR JOB! And yet, somehow, I am always cleaning up your mess. Every semester, somehow, there's something wrong with the exam settings on the CMS, and it's on me to clean it up. I'm so freaking sick of it.
I'm sick of telling our admin team how to do their jobs. I recognize it's my responsibility to make sure they're doing their job effectively when it comes to my class, but whenever I do that it just bleeds into checking their work for other classes that are not mine. *BANG* *BANG* *BANG* *BANG*
BANG!
Dear IT department, Yes, I do think there is actually something wrong with the LMS if I attempt to access the online meeting system embedded in my LMS course page, and it logs me in as a different faculty member. I used my login to access the classroom computer and my login to access the LMS. There should be no reason the system thinks I am someone else. I then had access to all of that faculty member's recordings and their upcoming meeting list and who knows what else. Why would there even be a way in the system for this to occur?! I don't care if you think this is user error, you need to fix this!
BANG BANG!
Dear grad student, I cannot believe that you are in the process of defending your dissertation and you still do not know how to cite a chapter in a book. Yes, we are an article field, but this cannot be the first time in 4 years that you have cited a chapter. Even if it is, you are a doctoral student! Open up the publication manual and figure it out!
BANG!
Dear graduate TAs,
I know you are busy. I know it's hard to balance your teaching & your research. But you are getting paid to teach. You are two weeks behind on grading and your students have an exam in a week. You must finish grading NOW. And return their graded assignments before Friday so they can use them to study. I don't care if that means you are holding extra office hours, or scan & email, but you MUST finish the grading.
No, you cannot just post an answer key. No, you cannot just grade "a representative sampling" and post comments. Stop coming up with creative ideas that do not involve you just finishing the grading.
Just. Finish. Grading.
Huuunh?
Kindergarten for grad student TAs?
Yuk!
M.
What will you be able to do to/with any TAs who do not comply?
How would you then deal with undergrad complaints that they could not appropriately study for their finals because the TAs did not grade their prior assignments on time?
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 10, 2022, 11:06:36 PM
What will you be able to do to/with any TAs who do not comply?
How would you then deal with undergrad complaints that they could not appropriately study for their finals because the TAs did not grade their prior assignments on time?
In my institution, nothing. Last year I had a grad TA who just felt overwhelmed and underprepared to grade, and rather than
telling me she felt that way, she just didn't grade. The deadline arrived, her batch of essays weren't graded, and so I had to grade them.
I told my Chair that under no circumstances did I want that TA again this year. My chair said she'd had a long talk with the TA who knew now that if she had difficulty she needed to ask for help rather than ghosting us, and that it would be fine.
To be fair, the TA was fine this year. It was a
different TA, whose grades were so arbitrary she might have been using the staircase method, whose work I had to redo.
Fortunately, I'm not in charge of that class again next year.
My current BANG BANG BANG--yes, a different one from last night!---relates to a student who doesn't like her essay grade. TA graded it (very good TA who did the grading perfectly), gave it a D+. I read the essay: Yup, solid D+. I email the student and explain that it's a D+ because they did things like fail to do
any external research beyond the course booklet, and consistently misused the terminology that we had gone over the first day of class. Seriously, half the first lecture was why we can't call a rabbit a smeerf in this field, and then throughout the entire essay smeerfs abound.
Student's defense: 'But you never said we needed to do external research! And I'm not a [subject] expert, so it's not fair to expect me to know not to call a rabbit a smeerf.'
This is a first-year intro class. Stu, you got a D+ not becuase you were graded against the expectations of subject experts, but because you were graded against the expectations of
having attended the first day of class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 10, 2022, 11:50:09 AM
I had to turn OFF the "display grade in percent" feature since students would freak out that their A+ was now a B- after they turned in their second assignment. Uh, you had an A+ on the 5 point, open-note, highest of 2 attempts, syllabus quiz. You now have 18 of 20 possible points. There are over 400 in the course. Calm down.
Yeah, I get that every semester. Yes, you were getting an A because you came to class and did a few reading responses. Then the first exam happened.
"I'm worried about my grade, I really want an A in the course and I'm at 89.something, is there anything I can do."
Well, the exam tomorrow counts for twenty percent of the grade so probably study for it and stop bothering me?
Quote from: Caracal on May 11, 2022, 05:12:33 AM
"I'm worried about my grade, I really want an A in the course and I'm at 89.something, is there anything I can do."
Well, the exam tomorrow counts for twenty percent of the grade so probably study for it and stop bothering me?
Depending on what the minimum percentage is to get an A and whether you give bonus points in the final exam, it is likely it is mathemtically impossible to get an A. Student may need a time machine.
Quote from: downer on May 11, 2022, 05:25:13 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 11, 2022, 05:12:33 AM
"I'm worried about my grade, I really want an A in the course and I'm at 89.something, is there anything I can do."
Well, the exam tomorrow counts for twenty percent of the grade so probably study for it and stop bothering me?
Depending on what the minimum percentage is to get an A and whether you give bonus points in the final exam, it is likely it is mathemtically impossible to get an A. Student may need a time machine.
Oh they are at 89.8 or something and I will round up. So, really they just need to not screw up the final.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 10, 2022, 11:06:36 PM
What will you be able to do to/with any TAs who do not comply?
How would you then deal with undergrad complaints that they could not appropriately study for their finals because the TAs did not grade their prior assignments on time?
As ergative said, not much other than to tell the department that they didn't fulfill their job requirements.
I can post all of the worksheet questions for the students along with the study guide and practice problems to help the students.
I'm not sure about the right place for this, but it is a bit of actual despair. I have a couple of overall quite good students who have taken a mental health downturn and are really struggling to make it to class and complete assignments. Even with a lot of flexibility built in, we're at an inflection point where they are likely to tank. I'm recommending withdrawal and checking in with our student success affairs office, but I've just run out of road. Of course I have the one or two students who have figured out how to use vague "my mental health is not good right now" excuses to seek adjustments, but I have a flexible enough syllabus that is pretty easy to manage. It's the students who had been doing well and hit some crisis point and can't even muster to try that have become more common and I can't come up with any way to help beyond telling them its okay to not be okay and getting them to the offices that can help. It just super sucks.
Quote from: Istiblennius on May 11, 2022, 10:55:48 AM
I'm not sure about the right place for this, but it is a bit of actual despair. I have a couple of overall quite good students who have taken a mental health downturn and are really struggling to make it to class and complete assignments. Even with a lot of flexibility built in, we're at an inflection point where they are likely to tank. I'm recommending withdrawal and checking in with our student success affairs office, but I've just run out of road. Of course I have the one or two students who have figured out how to use vague "my mental health is not good right now" excuses to seek adjustments, but I have a flexible enough syllabus that is pretty easy to manage. It's the students who had been doing well and hit some crisis point and can't even muster to try that have become more common and I can't come up with any way to help beyond telling them its okay to not be okay and getting them to the offices that can help. It just super sucks.
It is hard to see good students hit on hard times and drop out. Sounds like you have done all you can. Sometimes disabiliities offices are helpful too with helping students who have mental illness. At some point there's nothing more you can personally do.
Are they coming to see you physically, in your office?
If so, you could ask them if they'd walk over to the student care center with you to see if they could talk to someone or make an appointment there.
If online, could you possibly call the care center in advance, ask if someone might be available at some point, and then call/email/Zoom the student and see if you can make the connection that way?
If they're really seriously incapacitated, they may need help just getting to talk to someone, which can seem like an insurmountable cliff to climb when one is really seriously depressed.
It's not required, of course, but it might help.
M.
I have been able to walk students over to our counseling office on occasion, although more often the communication I am getting is electronic or no communication following an earlier reference to some mental health challenges. In that case, I keep trying to follow up with them electronically and make the referral (we have a pretty strong student of concern referral system in place) to someone in student affairs who will follow up as well. Even when taking these steps, which I know rationally is all I can do, I just hate feeling powerless. I still want to believe that if I just love teaching enough and put that into my time with them, it'll work. I rationally know that isn't the case.
That's the hardest part, when you do everything and you have to let them be who they are and do what they do, then.
Sounds like you're open to doing all the things you can; horses to water comes to mind, and the need to forgive yourself.
Letting them know you care and want to be supportive is the most important thing, and you're doing that.
To address your own despair, what refills your soul? A morning walk, a quiet coffee somewhere, a book of poems to read at your desk?
Do that, so that if they do reach out again, you won't be depleted as well.
M.
I've also asked students who were really in bad shape before if they would let me email the counseling service on their behalf and cc them so that the first contact was made.
Quote from: Caracal on May 11, 2022, 05:12:33 AM
"I'm worried about my grade, I really want an A in the course and I'm at 89.something, is there anything I can do."
Well, the exam tomorrow counts for twenty percent of the grade so probably study for it and stop bothering me?
Ha! I wish I could say that sometimes...
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
Seems like this might deserve its own thread.
I have never been authorized to withdraw non-attending students. But I do report never-attended students early in the semester. All places I teach at have a special fail grade due to no longer attending, where you give the last date of attendance. That's one of the reasons colleges emphasize the need to take attendance.
Quote from: downer on May 13, 2022, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
Seems like this might deserve its own thread.
I have never been authorized to withdraw non-attending students. But I do report never-attended students early in the semester. All places I teach at have a special fail grade due to no longer attending, where you give the last date of attendance. That's one of the reasons colleges emphasize the need to take attendance.
I've never heard of anything like this in Canada. Unless a student
chooses to withdraw, the institution can only de-register them for things like unpaid fees or lacking the required prerequisites. Profs and even
departments don't have that power. (If my experience is unusual, others can chime in.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2022, 06:25:41 AM
Quote from: downer on May 13, 2022, 05:59:08 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
Seems like this might deserve its own thread.
I have never been authorized to withdraw non-attending students. But I do report never-attended students early in the semester. All places I teach at have a special fail grade due to no longer attending, where you give the last date of attendance. That's one of the reasons colleges emphasize the need to take attendance.
I've never heard of anything like this in Canada. Unless a student chooses to withdraw, the institution can only de-register them for things like unpaid fees or lacking the required prerequisites. Profs and even departments don't have that power. (If my experience is unusual, others can chime in.)
I work at a Canadian university -- that's certainly the case for me. (Although I don't think I could drop people from my courses at my old U.S. university either.)
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
If a student does not attend the first week of class and does not contact me at all, I can send the info to the registrar and they can be dropped so someone else can add during the first week drop/add period. After that, we are encouraged to submit progress reports a couple times during the semester and I can note their non-attendance. When final grades are entered, if a student earns a failing grade, we're required to report whether they participated the entire semester, partial semester with last date of attendance, or if they never participated at all. But aside from that first week, I cannot drop them from the course.
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
Yes - we have to track/report attendance within the first 10 days of the term, as it's a requirement to receive federal financial aid of any kind. If student is not attending during the first 2 weeks of classes, they are dropped and that non-attendance is reported to Dept of Ed. Students absolutely do lose their funding; this report comes prior to disbursement of funds, so the money just never gets issued if they never attend. This has been the case (I think) for the entire decade I've been teaching, but I don't know if enforcement got ramped up at some point.
We cannot administratively drop students who stop showing up, but if they stopped attending prior to the last withdrawal date, they get a "UW" (Unofficial Withdrawal) instead of an F. We have to report the last day of attendance. I also tend to report it for students receiving an F, so they can't contest that they should get a UW instead. I've never had a problem with these -- it's the students who ghost for most of the term & then turn up in the last week to beg for an Incomplete that are my headache this academic year.
Thanks, that's what I was thinking of.
M.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
In New York State, we are required to report students who failed to attend classes during the first couple of weeks. This is done online, and is called "Verification of Attendance" or something similar. Depending on the institution, students who miss a certain number of classes can also be administratively dropped later on in the semester. We do have to keep track of attendance because the system requires us to enter the last date of attendance.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2022, 09:16:54 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
In New York State, we are required to report students who failed to attend classes during the first couple of weeks. This is done online, and is called "Verification of Attendance" or something similar. Depending on the institution, students who miss a certain number of classes can also be administratively dropped later on in the semester. We do have to keep track of attendance because the system requires us to enter the last date of attendance.
We do something similar, but ghost students know to show up the first two weeks, then they fall off the face of the Earth.
Similar at my university and the computer system allows instructors to drop students for non-attendance during the first two weeks of the course (which is why attendance rates are high during those first two weeks).
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 13, 2022, 09:16:54 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on May 13, 2022, 05:36:04 AM
How many of you are authorized to withdraw non-attending students from the courses you teach? My ghost-student rate for years (before pre-COVID) has been about 15%. Our uni talks a good game on social justice and compassion, but our admin is averse to do anything that might give these students pro-rated refunds for their courses. These students, who apparently are not in contact with advisors or student services, are repeatedly given grades of "unofficial withdrawal" with no credit earned, and just keep forking over money for this.
In New York State, we are required to report students who failed to attend classes during the first couple of weeks. This is done online, and is called "Verification of Attendance" or something similar. Depending on the institution, students who miss a certain number of classes can also be administratively dropped later on in the semester. We do have to keep track of attendance because the system requires us to enter the last date of attendance.
This ought to be tracked by law, given how many student loan borrowers are signing up for classes on the taxpayer's dime. This is one reason why, though I'm sympathetic to student loan forgiveness plans, I really don't believe that wholesale, no-questions-asked student loan forgiveness would be a good idea. We seem to have enough scam artists collecting student loan money for classes they don't really intend to take as it is.
One of my students last semester actually asked for an F instead of a UW (unofficial withdrawal), citing financial aid reasons. He had done some work, but very little, such that a UW would have been appropriate.
QuoteHello!
I am having trouble accessing the Essay Instruction and Topic file. It was sent as a file that cannot be opened using Word or even Notepad.
Can you send it as a PDF instead?
Thank you
The contents of the folder
is three PDFs.
I suspect that the student is clicking fruitlessly on the 'folder' icon on Moodle, not realizing that I've set the CMS to automatically display the folder's contents on the front page...
That, or they're clicking the 'download folder' button and don't know what to do with the zipped file it generates. In which case,
just click on the individual documents on the Moodle page. Sigh.
Ugh, yes, there are some students who are really clueless about technology. I suspect some of this is generational. I would never describe myself as good with computers-I don't really know what I'm doing, but I think those of us who came of age in the 90s and early 2000s learned how to troubleshoot, mostly because we had to. Most of my "troubleshooting" is based on the assumption that I'm doing something dumb. Is the file actually open but I can't find it because I have every file on earth open on my computer? Am I looking in the wrong place to open it? Where is the file anyway? Only if all of that doesn't help, do I even go into the restart everything, see if that fixes it-see if I can open it on my phone-check and see if there's some software update issue phase etc...
I think people who are 18-22 now are just used to things working in an intuitive way and when something doesn't work, they don't really have this kind of mental checklist to go through.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 14, 2022, 10:57:12 AM
QuoteHello!
I am having trouble accessing the Essay Instruction and Topic file. It was sent as a file that cannot be opened using Word or even Notepad.
Can you send it as a PDF instead?
Thank you
The contents of the folder is three PDFs.
I suspect that the student is clicking fruitlessly on the 'folder' icon on Moodle, not realizing that I've set the CMS to automatically display the folder's contents on the front page...
That, or they're clicking the 'download folder' button and don't know what to do with the zipped file it generates. In which case, just click on the individual documents on the Moodle page. Sigh.
Quote from: Caracal on May 15, 2022, 06:03:27 AM
Ugh, yes, there are some students who are really clueless about technology. I suspect some of this is generational. I would never describe myself as good with computers-I don't really know what I'm doing, but I think those of us who came of age in the 90s and early 2000s learned how to troubleshoot, mostly because we had to. Most of my "troubleshooting" is based on the assumption that I'm doing something dumb. Is the file actually open but I can't find it because I have every file on earth open on my computer? Am I looking in the wrong place to open it? Where is the file anyway? Only if all of that doesn't help, do I even go into the restart everything, see if that fixes it-see if I can open it on my phone-check and see if there's some software update issue phase etc...
I think people who are 18-22 now are just used to things working in an intuitive way and when something doesn't work, they don't really have this kind of mental checklist to go through.
And by "intuitive" what is really meant is "easy to do the thing that
most people want to do". AI in everything under the sun is good for doing "normal" stuff, but awful for things that are in any way non-standard. Young people are used to this kind of "no user-serviceable parts inside" approach to technology.
Does anyone offer students partial credit for leaving the answer blank to save you the time and irritation of having to read BS answers?
Quote from: Anon1787 on May 15, 2022, 04:08:01 PM
Does anyone offer students partial credit for leaving the answer blank to save you the time and irritation of having to read BS answers?
No, but I do say that everything that is written and not clearly crossed out will be graded, and anything that is irrelevant to the problem counts against them because it means that they don't actually know the answer to the question.
So at least the Bs answers tend to be short instead of rambling answers that are clearly "throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks"
Quote from: kiana on May 15, 2022, 05:09:02 PM
Quote from: Anon1787 on May 15, 2022, 04:08:01 PM
Does anyone offer students partial credit for leaving the answer blank to save you the time and irritation of having to read BS answers?
No, but I do say that everything that is written and not clearly crossed out will be graded, and anything that is irrelevant to the problem counts against them because it means that they don't actually know the answer to the question.
So at least the Bs answers tend to be short instead of rambling answers that are clearly "throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks"
I just graded a batch of exams this weekend, and in my rubric I had a specific row for 'relevance' because I was so annoyed by people trying to define irrelevant stuff in the hopes of partial credit. There were definitely cases where vague answers got better grades than answers which said all the same right stuff as the vague ones plus extra wrong/irrelevant stuff. Part of demonstrating knowledge is knowing what to leave out.
I usually grade essay exams as "points for everything you say that is both relevant and true". I am reconsidering adding a "minus the BS and Fluff"
I was recently doing some second marking for an exam that included a grammar component. The first marker gave a passing grade to a student for correctly identifying something as a noun phrase. I pointed out that the student called everything a noun phrase, so how much credit had that likely-accidentally-correct answer really merited?
Quote from: ergative on May 16, 2022, 06:42:18 AM
I was recently doing some second marking for an exam that included a grammar component. The first marker gave a passing grade to a student for correctly identifying something as a noun phrase. I pointed out that the student called everything a noun phrase, so how much credit had that likely-accidentally-correct answer really merited?
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day?
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 16, 2022, 12:44:38 PM
Quote from: ergative on May 16, 2022, 06:42:18 AM
I was recently doing some second marking for an exam that included a grammar component. The first marker gave a passing grade to a student for correctly identifying something as a noun phrase. I pointed out that the student called everything a noun phrase, so how much credit had that likely-accidentally-correct answer really merited?
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day?
I had a colleague who generated his exams randomly from an enormous, poorly curated pool of true/false and multiple choice questions, and sometimes his exams would end up having the same question twice. He always swore that when students asked what they should do about it during and exam he would answer "I guess that depends on how sure you are of your answer".
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2022, 06:01:30 AM
I usually grade essay exams as "points for everything you say that is both relevant and true". I am reconsidering adding a "minus the BS and Fluff"
So how much points do they get for "No studying, therefore don't know the answers"? It's both relevant and true...
Quote from: Stockmann on May 16, 2022, 05:27:59 PM
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2022, 06:01:30 AM
I usually grade essay exams as "points for everything you say that is both relevant and true". I am reconsidering adding a "minus the BS and Fluff"
So how much points do they get for "No studying, therefore don't know the answers"? It's both relevant and true...
But it's not relevant. The question is not asking about the student's study habits. It's asking about philology or chemistry or engineering or whatever. Remember, as we tell all those students who whine about how haaaaard they worked on their C- essay, we don't grade the process; we grade the results.
They might get one 'laugh-out-loud' point, depending on my mood at the time.
argh. plagiarism. There are a few authentic sentences in the paper that take some of the sting out of it and at least the topic is interesting so I got something out of looking at the original sources. It's sad that I could have given some substantive feedback on their ideas. Instead it was a very boring round of highlighting words in student paper and highlighting words in the source.
In the continuing trend of students asking to redo things, I had a student ask if they could retake the final. After the semester is over. SIGH.
And this is why I drink.
Quote from: Stockmann on May 16, 2022, 05:27:59 PM
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2022, 06:01:30 AM
I usually grade essay exams as "points for everything you say that is both relevant and true". I am reconsidering adding a "minus the BS and Fluff"
So how much points do they get for "No studying, therefore don't know the answers"? It's both relevant and true...
Many, many years ago, in my first college economics course, I finished the written final of four essay questions at least half an hour before the bell. Instructor, an adjunct, took me into his office, and graded my paper on the spot, giving a running commentary on my writings. Yes, yes, no, no, and such. Finally, he said: Great, but minus 10 points for bullshitting!
This was the same instructor who had earlier in the semester thrown a board eraser at me, frustrated that my thumbs up/thumbs down answers to the directional theory questions he asked were shooting 50/50. So much for class participation.
I loved every minute. Those were the days, my friends!
Quote from: FishProf on May 17, 2022, 01:44:00 PM
They might get one 'laugh-out-loud' point, depending on my mood at the time.
Yeah, I'd totally give a small amount of partial credit. The individual student's study habits are irrelevant to the question, but making the connection that to be able to learn the material, some studying is needed isn't irrelevant - at the very least, it is relevant to learning the course content. But really, my main motivation would be the refreshing change compared to hearing about the seventh death of a student's grandma or how their dog ate their icloud or whatever.
Not unrelated to my last post:
Today, two students told me the essay instructions were inaccessible (they're in a PDF). I asked for further explanation, and after some confusion one student tried accessing the file in front of me. When she clicked on it, a box popped up asking which program to use to open it. That was the stumbling block. *headdesk*
I asked whether she had a PDF reader installed. She didn't know what I meant. *headdesk*
I asked how she'd been accessing the reading up until now. She replied "the readings worked". Yeah, right. They're PDFs too, friend.
Stu who wrote:
Quote
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 04, 2022, 12:44:30 PM
First sentence in a Freshman Comp research paper:
Quote
In [Author's] ["Short Story"], a woman named Jane is married to a man named John.
is unhappy with hu's grade and wrote a long email informing me that
Quotebut I truly felt that this was an unfair grade and that I deserved at least a B
Stu's sentences quoted in the
Favorite Student Sentences thread do not demonstrate B level proficiency, alas.
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 08:46:33 AM
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
In addition to early reporting, we have to classify failing grades as they failed the work or they failed because they stopped coming to class. The latter impacts aid eligibility in the future and can also result in the financial aid office going after their current semester federal loans somehow.
Quote from: glowdart on May 19, 2022, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 08:46:33 AM
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
In addition to early reporting, we have to classify failing grades as they failed the work or they failed because they stopped coming to class. The latter impacts aid eligibility in the future and can also result in the financial aid office going after their current semester federal loans somehow.
I'd be curious how you classify this. In terms of failing students I basically have a couple types
1. Student never comes to class, or comes to class for the first week and then completely vanishes.
2. Student sometimes comes to class for a month, turns in some assignments, takes the first exam and then vanishes sometime after, never to be seen again.
3.Student's attendance is spotty from the beginning, they miss major assignments early, but never completely stop coming to class, they do show up for exams. Despite everything, they could have ended up with a C, but they don't turn in the last major assignment.
4. Student is doing fine-completely vanishes a week before the end of class, doesn't show up for the final, doesn't turn in last assignment despite me writing them to tell them I'll still accept it if they can turn it in.
1 and 2 are clear enough, but the variations on 3 and 4 can get complicated in terms of why the student failed.
Quote from: Caracal on May 19, 2022, 07:00:04 AM
Quote from: glowdart on May 19, 2022, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 08:46:33 AM
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
In addition to early reporting, we have to classify failing grades as they failed the work or they failed because they stopped coming to class. The latter impacts aid eligibility in the future and can also result in the financial aid office going after their current semester federal loans somehow.
I'd be curious how you classify this. In terms of failing students I basically have a couple types
1. Student never comes to class, or comes to class for the first week and then completely vanishes.
2. Student sometimes comes to class for a month, turns in some assignments, takes the first exam and then vanishes sometime after, never to be seen again.
3.Student's attendance is spotty from the beginning, they miss major assignments early, but never completely stop coming to class, they do show up for exams. Despite everything, they could have ended up with a C, but they don't turn in the last major assignment.
4. Student is doing fine-completely vanishes a week before the end of class, doesn't show up for the final, doesn't turn in last assignment despite me writing them to tell them I'll still accept it if they can turn it in.
1 and 2 are clear enough, but the variations on 3 and 4 can get complicated in terms of why the student failed.
They key is that financial aid will not pay if the student did not attend class.
3. Reads to me like the student failed due to poor performance. Attendance was a concern, but you can show that they were in class AND that what they turned in wasn't sufficient to pass.
4. Sounds like you need to contact their advisor due to a concern about a major life crisis. That's when you invoke the "medical hardship" or similar policy and financial aid should not be affected.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 19, 2022, 08:42:28 AM
4. Sounds like you need to contact their advisor due to a concern about a major life crisis. That's when you invoke the "medical hardship" or similar policy and financial aid should not be affected.
Yes, this would be a case where I'd contact the advisor, and if they couldn't get a response from the student either the care team would be alerted to track them down and make sure they are OK. Almost always in these situations where a student has been doing fine up to the end then disappears something major is going on, usually a mental health crisis. An excused incomplete is usually appropriate in those cases to give the student time to address the issue and hopefully successfully complete the final exam/project.
And the CMS is down. What are the students supposed to being doing today? A data analysis lab. Where is said data and links to all needed online tools? On the CMS.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
Quote from: Caracal on May 19, 2022, 07:00:04 AM
Quote from: glowdart on May 19, 2022, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 08:46:33 AM
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
In addition to early reporting, we have to classify failing grades as they failed the work or they failed because they stopped coming to class. The latter impacts aid eligibility in the future and can also result in the financial aid office going after their current semester federal loans somehow.
I'd be curious how you classify this. In terms of failing students I basically have a couple types
1. Student never comes to class, or comes to class for the first week and then completely vanishes.
2. Student sometimes comes to class for a month, turns in some assignments, takes the first exam and then vanishes sometime after, never to be seen again.
3.Student's attendance is spotty from the beginning, they miss major assignments early, but never completely stop coming to class, they do show up for exams. Despite everything, they could have ended up with a C, but they don't turn in the last major assignment.
4. Student is doing fine-completely vanishes a week before the end of class, doesn't show up for the final, doesn't turn in last assignment despite me writing them to tell them I'll still accept it if they can turn it in.
1 and 2 are clear enough, but the variations on 3 and 4 can get complicated in terms of why the student failed.
All of these things--students who just don't show up for most of the term, students who flunk, and students who derailed by sudden life crises--seem so much more common now than at either the SLAC where I was an undergrad or the R1 where I was a grad and TA. Of course I know COVID has created a spike in every kind of problem under the sun, but people here were already complaining about an awful lot of this sort of thing pre-COVID. Are they so much more common than in the 1980s and 1990s, or did I just attend schools where there wasn't so much of it? I must admit to having no experience of attending a public college as anything other than a part-time distance-ed student in a professional program.
Students (and others with anxiety/family crisis/mental health issues) didn't used to self-identify out of fear of derision or loss of face.
In fact, as I recall from what might be the same time period, being raised in a midwest state that was in some places slow on the uptake with acknowledging difference overall, it wasn't something you did until maybe the early-to-mid 70s.
I recall the difference between my own response to being invited to play for a benefit concert for an abused women's shelter in 1975--I played for it but wondered at the necessity--and, in a different state, five years later, finding it essential to make use of such a shelter myself.
My 'other-state,' earlier self would have never admitted the need.
My 'new-state,' later self was very glad it could be met.
So there may have been some regional, time- and culturally-related changes that have made things more visible, as well.
In many ways, the transparency and willingness to admit need is probably more healthy, even if it can on occasion be abused, or appear to be abused; more lives are probably saved and made better by the admission of need and its assuagement than before.
M.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 19, 2022, 08:42:28 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 19, 2022, 07:00:04 AM
Quote from: glowdart on May 19, 2022, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 13, 2022, 08:46:33 AM
If I recall from some old forum discussion, some of the need to track attendance and drop/not drop people (and some of the reasons they try to game this) has to do with maintaining their student loans.
There may be something like a threshold of missed classes or days of attendance before they either forfeit the loan or have to start paying on it, or something like that.
Sorry I'm vague about it, I never dealt with it personally, but I know people were taking out loans just to live on, without attending classes at all, and the loan grantors were using attendance records to catch up with them.
M.
In addition to early reporting, we have to classify failing grades as they failed the work or they failed because they stopped coming to class. The latter impacts aid eligibility in the future and can also result in the financial aid office going after their current semester federal loans somehow.
I'd be curious how you classify this. In terms of failing students I basically have a couple types
1. Student never comes to class, or comes to class for the first week and then completely vanishes.
2. Student sometimes comes to class for a month, turns in some assignments, takes the first exam and then vanishes sometime after, never to be seen again.
3.Student's attendance is spotty from the beginning, they miss major assignments early, but never completely stop coming to class, they do show up for exams. Despite everything, they could have ended up with a C, but they don't turn in the last major assignment.
4. Student is doing fine-completely vanishes a week before the end of class, doesn't show up for the final, doesn't turn in last assignment despite me writing them to tell them I'll still accept it if they can turn it in.
1 and 2 are clear enough, but the variations on 3 and 4 can get complicated in terms of why the student failed.
They key is that financial aid will not pay if the student did not attend class.
3. Reads to me like the student failed due to poor performance. Attendance was a concern, but you can show that they were in class AND that what they turned in wasn't sufficient to pass.
4. Sounds like you need to contact their advisor due to a concern about a major life crisis. That's when you invoke the "medical hardship" or similar policy and financial aid should not be affected.
Yes - we have a date of last attendance note to fill out, but occasionally the financial aid office calls to clarify which of the above it is — 4 wouldn't be an issue, and 3 wouldn't if they were making a lousy effort & had attendance problems.
Ugh. I'm grading a scaffolding assignment for a research project assignment over this long weekend, and it's making me wish I could just use multiple choice tests and be done with it.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 29, 2022, 09:05:47 AM
Ugh. I'm grading a scaffolding assignment for a research project assignment over this long weekend, and it's making me wish I could just use multiple choice tests and be done with it.
I'm starting my planning for next year and strategizing for what final work I can grade in the time we will have. Sanity says multiple choice tests but I'll be teaching project-focused courses that are usually papers or presentations. Oh man. I welcome any survival strategies.
Quote from: teach_write_research on May 29, 2022, 09:22:48 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 29, 2022, 09:05:47 AM
Ugh. I'm grading a scaffolding assignment for a research project assignment over this long weekend, and it's making me wish I could just use multiple choice tests and be done with it.
I'm starting my planning for next year and strategizing for what final work I can grade in the time we will have. Sanity says multiple choice tests but I'll be teaching project-focused courses that are usually papers or presentations. Oh man. I welcome any survival strategies.
Build in lots of checkpoints and scaffolding so that it's easy to guide students towards success on the final product. The only surprise will be if a student/team dramatically improves from the penultimate check.
But make the scaffold steps as simple to grade as as well-integrated as possible.
I inherited a horribly bad scaffold system once, when hired to take over a class whose instructor of note had been ordered to full bedrst with serious mono.
I was already teaching 4 classes (2 were smaller sections of the same class, one in the night school program) and was not going to grade 50 more submissions every 2 weeks, thankyouverymuch.
I had to re-group things, drop a couple grade-point assignments to pass/fail, and re-jigger the final total points required to keep my sanity.
So, don't go crazy with scaffolding, some students just blew it off because they'd seen how small the point-stakes were, and were already behind, just 2 weeks into the semester.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 30, 2022, 08:34:59 AM
But make the scaffold steps as simple to grade as as well-integrated as possible.
<snip>
So, don't go crazy with scaffolding, some students just blew it off because they'd seen how small the point-stakes were, and were already behind, just 2 weeks into the semester.
M.
So much this! Usually a few scaffolded assignments have served me well for getting students to the final project/paper. There's an uptick in students not doing those. Some seem to be just avoiding it while others have taken accommodations for flexible deadlines to an extreme. I'm planning to do some sort of written out agreement with everyone to spell out the purpose and consequences.
Quote from: teach_write_research on May 31, 2022, 05:54:36 PM
Quote from: mamselle on May 30, 2022, 08:34:59 AM
But make the scaffold steps as simple to grade as as well-integrated as possible.
<snip>https://thefora.org/Themes/default/images/bbc/list.gif
So, don't go crazy with scaffolding, some students just blew it off because they'd seen how small the point-stakes were, and were already behind, just 2 weeks into the semester.
M.
So much this! Usually a few scaffolded assignments have served me well for getting students to the final project/paper. There's an uptick in students not doing those. Some seem to be just avoiding it while others have taken accommodations for flexible deadlines to an extreme. I'm planning to do some sort of written out agreement with everyone to spell out the purpose and consequences.
To some extent, you can just let the natural consequences unfold. If students don't do the scaffolded assignments they don't get your feedback, they do everything at the last minute and it is usually reflected in their grade. Some students might be doing this strategically. My institution doesn't give + or - grades and I have students who seem to have calculated that they aren't willing to put in the work that would give them a chance to get an A, but have also figured out that they can skip some low stakes assignments, do a poor but not completely awful job on the major assignment and get a low B.
Whether this matters really depends on the class. If it's important for the class as a whole for students to do these sorts of assignments, you just need to make them worth enough that skipping them isn't going to be a good idea for anybody. If it isn't something that is going to mess up the functioning of the class, you can let students make their own choices.
OK, I guess my suspicious mind sees the scaffolding work as doing the student's job for them.
If I have to set up the dates, grade the submitted chunks, return the commented materials, and go over them, that's four times more work than my teachers ever did for me.
And since I was severely burned by a flaky-puff cheerleader who made me sit down twice with her for an hour each time, go over her paper, show her the errors and incomplete areas, and then have her turn the whole thing in without any corrections--and THEN go to the chair of the department to complain that I hadn't helped her, and have him believe her, but not me...well, let's just say I'm even less of a fan than I was to begin with.
I usually like working with students, going over their stuff, etc.
But that was something of an inoculatory experience.
M.
Dear graduate students,
Yes, professors in different courses will have different expectations for assignments. My assignment instructions for this course are appropriately detailed. No, I am not giving you an exact template. Yes, you must actually think in this course. Further, if you are "confused" about the instructions, the appropriate thing to do is to read the instructions, then contact me with your questions. It is not a helpful strategy to complain to each other about how you are all so confused without actually talking to me.
And yes, this is a 3 credit doctoral-level course, It's a full semester squished into 5.5 weeks. So, you will spend a significant number of hours per week on this course. If you were not prepared to do so, you should have dropped already.
How are such students accepted into a doctoral program? And, once in it, how do they stay there?
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 04, 2022, 10:47:48 PM
How are such students accepted into a doctoral program? And, once in it, how do they stay there?
And if this is a fully funded program, why didn't I apply there? Ha
Quote from: reverist on June 05, 2022, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 04, 2022, 10:47:48 PM
How are such students accepted into a doctoral program? And, once in it, how do they stay there?
And if this is a fully funded program, why didn't I apply there? Ha
Not fully funded. We have some fabulous students who could be admitted and be successful in any competitive doctoral program and other students who would definitely not be competitive and require more support. I hold the line regarding expectations when I can; it's a balance. And sometimes I vent here.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 05, 2022, 11:19:31 AM
Quote from: reverist on June 05, 2022, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 04, 2022, 10:47:48 PM
How are such students accepted into a doctoral program? And, once in it, how do they stay there?
And if this is a fully funded program, why didn't I apply there? Ha
Not fully funded. We have some fabulous students who could be admitted and be successful in any competitive doctoral program and other students who would definitely not be competitive and require more support. I hold the line regarding expectations when I can; it's a balance. And sometimes I vent here.
Sounds a bit (a lot) like my place. It's rewarding to watch some of the weaker students develop over time, so I try to keep an open mind when I'm not frustrated.
Ugh. Banging my head, but it's my fault.
I had the worst teaching day I think I've ever had. It felt the lecture going off the rails and could not save it. I could see I was losing them, and could not think on my feet quick enough to switch to an activity or something else that would bring it back. I called a class break (3 hour class, so we take 2 breaks anyway), then re-started with something entirely different that did not depend on the material I skipped, and said we'd get back to the part that wasn't working next class. I don't think I've just ditched a lecture part way through before. I hope it was the right choice not to power through.
I'm so burnt-out this semester.
But that's good.
You read the class and you made a change to reflect your reading of them.
You can figure out a different way to cover the rest of the material, or elide past it, or have them do it as a flipped assignment, or something--but you did pivot when you saw the way things were going.
That's the main thing.
You did right.
M.
Grades are in! Cue the "please round/bump/boost/adjust my grade" emails +/- a tale of sadness. The thing is, the vast majority of you passed this course! You did great! Call it done and go do something to relax.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 04, 2022, 08:11:50 AM
Dear graduate students,
Yes, professors in different courses will have different expectations for assignments. My assignment instructions for this course are appropriately detailed. No, I am not giving you an exact template. Yes, you must actually think in this course. Further, if you are "confused" about the instructions, the appropriate thing to do is to read the instructions, then contact me with your questions. It is not a helpful strategy to complain to each other about how you are all so confused without actually talking to me.
And yes, this is a 3 credit doctoral-level course, It's a full semester squished into 5.5 weeks. So, you will spend a significant number of hours per week on this course. If you were not prepared to do so, you should have dropped already.
I empathize with you.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 07, 2022, 03:48:41 PM
Ugh. Banging my head, but it's my fault.
I had the worst teaching day I think I've ever had. It felt the lecture going off the rails and could not save it. I could see I was losing them, and could not think on my feet quick enough to switch to an activity or something else that would bring it back. I called a class break (3 hour class, so we take 2 breaks anyway), then re-started with something entirely different that did not depend on the material I skipped, and said we'd get back to the part that wasn't working next class. I don't think I've just ditched a lecture part way through before. I hope it was the right choice not to power through.
I'm so burnt-out this semester.
Agree with Mamselle's assessment, as well as considering that there may well be merit in occasionally admitting to our students that yes, the stress is getting to us as well. Sometimes it can be advantageous for students to see us as people. It also sounds as if you're an extremely dedicated and skillful teacher if that description was indeed your all-time worst teaching day.
As for MY all-time worst... well, no, to share that with anyone, I'd have to get to know them for a while, and they'd have to buy the first round.
Quote from: little bongo on June 08, 2022, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 07, 2022, 03:48:41 PM
Ugh. Banging my head, but it's my fault.
I had the worst teaching day I think I've ever had. It felt the lecture going off the rails and could not save it. I could see I was losing them, and could not think on my feet quick enough to switch to an activity or something else that would bring it back. I called a class break (3 hour class, so we take 2 breaks anyway), then re-started with something entirely different that did not depend on the material I skipped, and said we'd get back to the part that wasn't working next class. I don't think I've just ditched a lecture part way through before. I hope it was the right choice not to power through.
I'm so burnt-out this semester.
Agree with Mamselle's assessment, as well as considering that there may well be merit in occasionally admitting to our students that yes, the stress is getting to us as well. Sometimes it can be advantageous for students to see us as people. It also sounds as if you're an extremely dedicated and skillful teacher if that description was indeed your all-time worst teaching day.
As for MY all-time worst... well, no, to share that with anyone, I'd have to get to know them for a while, and they'd have to buy the first round.
Thanks. I think it was the worst teaching day regarding material delivery. And, some hyperbole b/c I'm so burnt. The actual worst teaching day involving students trying to get me fired . . . well first round's on me.
A double post, about a week later.
It's not really despair, but I've discovered my students have an interesting sense of time.
I asked for a 5 minute recorded presentation, as we are having a virtual poster session. Presentation lengths submitted so far range from 3.5 minutes to 9.5 minutes. Perhaps the class average time will be 5 minutes?
That's truly annoying. I think it's I who should buy the first round; you've earned it.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2022, 06:29:13 AM
A double post, about a week later.
It's not really despair, but I've discovered my students have an interesting sense of time.
I asked for a 5 minute recorded presentation, as we are having a virtual poster session. Presentation lengths submitted so far range from 3.5 minutes to 9.5 minutes. Perhaps the class average time will be 5 minutes?
If you want them to be 5 minutes next time, tell them that you will stop the video and assign a grade at the 5:00 mark.
Quote from: Biologist_ on June 14, 2022, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2022, 06:29:13 AM
A double post, about a week later.
It's not really despair, but I've discovered my students have an interesting sense of time.
I asked for a 5 minute recorded presentation, as we are having a virtual poster session. Presentation lengths submitted so far range from 3.5 minutes to 9.5 minutes. Perhaps the class average time will be 5 minutes?
If you want them to be 5 minutes next time, tell them that you will stop the video and assign a grade at the 5:00 mark.
Right. Tell them you grade the first five minutes. They'll tighten up.
Quote from: FishProf on June 15, 2022, 08:11:25 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on June 14, 2022, 02:17:17 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2022, 06:29:13 AM
A double post, about a week later.
It's not really despair, but I've discovered my students have an interesting sense of time.
I asked for a 5 minute recorded presentation, as we are having a virtual poster session. Presentation lengths submitted so far range from 3.5 minutes to 9.5 minutes. Perhaps the class average time will be 5 minutes?
If you want them to be 5 minutes next time, tell them that you will stop the video and assign a grade at the 5:00 mark.
Right. Tell them you grade the first five minutes. They'll tighten up.
Yeah, I know. I said approximately 5 minutes and told them not to worry if it was between 4 and 6. I've used these instructions before with good success , and had not experienced submissions way outside the range before (occasionally someone clocks in at 7 minutes). This class has been so anxious about "what
exactly do you want Dr. OMY?!!!!" that I had not expected them to blow through the time requirements. But maybe it's the anxiety driving long presentations as they are trying to fit everything in. Eh, if we all survive the semester I'm counting it as a win this year. Everyone still enrolled is on track to pass.
Stu emailed me (for the first time) at 6pm today to let me know that stu hasn't done any of the work because stu is having financial issues. Now, I can sympathize/empathize with the situation, but we are at the END of week #2 of an online summer course that is only seven weeks long. I have to no show students and this person waited to the last damn minute.
Double post.
Only half of my online class took the first quiz, which is surprising. I posted numerous announcements, it's in the syllabus, yada, yada, yada. I haven't heard any complaints from anyone yet about me 'not telling them' they had a quiz.
Stu--you don't even know what your exam grade was, and already you want to formally contest it? Yes, it was pretty low--you figured that out from your course grade, which was lower than the stuff you'd already turned in. Good for you--I'm glad you can do math. But it's kind of a bad look to send an email saying, 'what was my grade i'm contesting it whatever it was I'm an A student how dare you.'
Also, I've heard from the school admin that you're doing the same thing in another course, for the same reason. Think, for a moment: Do you really think that my department and History are both pulling independent shenanigans with their grading processes? Have you considered the possibility that maybe you just didn't do so great on your exams this term?
Quote from: ergative on June 17, 2022, 08:32:46 AM
Stu--you don't even know what your exam grade was, and already you want to formally contest it? Yes, it was pretty low--you figured that out from your course grade, which was lower than the stuff you'd already turned in. Good for you--I'm glad you can do math. But it's kind of a bad look to send an email saying, 'what was my grade i'm contesting it whatever it was I'm an A student how dare you.'
Also, I've heard from the school admin that you're doing the same thing in another course, for the same reason. Think, for a moment: Do you really think that my department and History are both pulling independent shenanigans with their grading processes? Have you considered the possibility that maybe you just didn't do so great on your exams this term?
Oh, not *independent* shenanigans, but conspiratorial ones! /sarc
Quote from: ergative on June 17, 2022, 08:32:46 AM
Stu--you don't even know what your exam grade was, and already you want to formally contest it? Yes, it was pretty low--you figured that out from your course grade, which was lower than the stuff you'd already turned in. Good for you--I'm glad you can do math. But it's kind of a bad look to send an email saying, 'what was my grade i'm contesting it whatever it was I'm an A student how dare you.'
Also, I've heard from the school admin that you're doing the same thing in another course, for the same reason. Think, for a moment: Do you really think that my department and History are both pulling independent shenanigans with their grading processes? Have you considered the possibility that maybe you just didn't do so great on your exams this term?
Wow...
I once had a student yell at me because hu didn't get As. Helpful departmental assistant looked up Stu's grades in other courses. Lo and behold, they were mostly Cs and Ds. Stu then informed me that Chair had assured hu of a C in the course--this was before the midterm break. Stu dropped the course, much to everyone's relief.
One article I assigned makes a passing reference to a Nirvana lyric. So, so many students are saying "Kurt Cobain argues" in their essays and then attributing a number of things to him, as if (1) it were an argument, and (2) he was an eminent academic.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 22, 2022, 05:19:16 PM
One article I assigned makes a passing reference to a Nirvana lyrics. So, so many students are saying "Kurt Cobain argues" in their essays and then attributing a number of things to him, as if (1) it were an argument, and (2) he was an eminent academic.
But if that was Kurt's "lived experience", isn't that as good as an academic argument based on evidence and logic?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 22, 2022, 05:19:16 PM
One article I assigned makes a passing reference to a Nirvana lyrics. So, so many students are saying "Kurt Cobain argues" in their essays and then attributing a number of things to him, as if (1) it were an argument, and (2) he was an eminent academic.
I mean you don't have to be an academic to make an argument. If they were talking about an interview Cobain did where he made some sort of claim or laid out an idea, that would be fine. I agree that song lyrics aren't usually arguments, but I wouldn't really object to the idea that a song can make an argument or suggest one or something along those lines.
This is a version of something students often stuggle with, which is understanding who is writing something and what the genre is. The version I often get is when students read an academic article about something in the past and believe that the academic is writing at the same time as the events in question and engaging in debates with the historical figures. It is often like they literally believe the author is in conversation with their sources. They don't see that the author is actually someone who has selected particular quotes and events in order to make a particular argument. They just think of him as another person walking around in this scene.
Your students are doing something pretty similar. The author uses a Cobain lyric to make some point, but they think the argument is Cobain's, probably because they never quite figured out what this thing they were reading was and what it was trying to do.
Quote from: Caracal on June 23, 2022, 08:01:27 AM
I mean you don't have to be an academic to make an argument. If they were talking about an interview Cobain did where he made some sort of claim or laid out an idea, that would be fine. I agree that song lyrics aren't usually arguments, but I wouldn't really object to the idea that a song can make an argument or suggest one or something along those lines.
Of course. An argument is just a set of statements, at least one of which (a premise) is offered in support of another (a conclusion). They're found all over the place.
It's just that context makes it very clear that the students in question (1) don't know what an argument is or how to distinguish it from a statement, despite having gone over that in detail early on, (2) don't know who Kurt Cobain was (despite the article saying so), and (3) attribute the author's claims to Cobain. They routinely do this with people whose views are under discussion, but I've not seen them do it with a dead famous musician before.
Quote
Your students are doing something pretty similar. The author uses a Cobain lyric to make some point, but they think the argument is Cobain's, probably because they never quite figured out what this thing they were reading was and what it was trying to do.
Yeah. But they also clearly don't know who Cobain was. I'm optimistic that if it were someone still alive and on the pop radar they'd clue in to their mistake. Then again, maybe any proper name is fair game.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 22, 2022, 05:19:16 PM
One article I assigned makes a passing reference to a Nirvana lyrics. So, so many students are saying "Kurt Cobain argues" in their essays and then attributing a number of things to him, as if (1) it were an argument, and (2) he was an eminent academic.
Well, the the students are trying to figure out how to use information from/about the song lyrics in their essay. The probably don't know (rightly so) 1) Cobain considered the lyrics to be the least important part of his songs and often wrote them last and 2) Nirvana's songs try to provoke a response in their audience through the sounds more than the words.
I'd give the students credit for making a solid attempt rather than fussing about the exact phrasing.
What caused the headdesk is the conflation of an example from, with the author of, the article. They're analyzing the argument from a particular paper by Joe Schmoe, but have decided, based on Schmoe's example, that the paper is actually written by Cobain. It's a reading comprehension issue, and a new one this term (though as Caracal notes, it's very similar to calling everything you read 'a novel'). It's especially glaring because it involves a well-known public figure (though admittedly less well known today!).
I have a separate complaint about misuse of a technical term when they ought to know better, but that's not what caused my head to hit the desk.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on June 23, 2022, 12:20:30 PM
What caused the headdesk is the conflation of an example from, with the author of, the article. They're analyzing the argument from a particular paper by Joe Schmoe, but have decided, based on Schmoe's example, that the paper is actually written by Cobain. It's a reading comprehension issue, and a new one this term (though as Caracal notes, it's very similar to calling everything you read 'a novel'). It's especially glaring because it involves a well-known public figure (though admittedly less well known today!).
I have a separate complaint about misuse of a technical term when they ought to know better, but that's not what caused my head to hit the desk.
I think this is one of those things where you have technical problems with reading interacting with issues of motivation and effort. I sometimes assign a reading in an intro class and realize that students are struggling with it in a way I failed to anticipate and that I should have given them a framework to understand what they are reading. That's on me and it's something I keep trying to work on, because things like argument and genre and author can all be taught.
Other times, however, I have the same issue you are having here. I have spent time working on this stuff and students still screw it up. I think it's often just that you have to want to try to understand what you are reading. A student who doesn't start off with the reading comprehension skills to figure this stuff out can learn, but they have to be paying attention and applying the previous lessons to what they are reading. If they think of everything as just another thing to read for class and never stop to think things through when they get confused, there's not really much we can do.
Just got an email from a student:
Good Morning Mrs. Hist,
I have been reaching out to you everyday this week wether it has been an email or phone call. I am trying to regain access to your class. I need the credits and do no want to miss my window off opportunity. I did not know I had been removed from the class. I was trying to access canvas to check to see what I had due for the class yet I could not access it. How do I regain access to the class?
Thank you for your time.
--
Thank you,
Student
I think I showed great control in my response, particularly considering my mood at the time <interthreaduality>. I simply explained that at the end of Week 3, it's too late, especially since he was admin. dropped for never contacting me or turning in a damned thing until today. (I checked my office voice mail and all my Canvas and email in-boxes; crickets from him.)
I suppose we're supposed to just sit and wait until the urge to actually think about/do work for a class strikes them? Pfft. NOPE.
You've got to love some of these dingdong students. When shit hits the fan, they almost always put the onus on you to fix their problems.
We offer Summer term classes here. I got an email from a student asking if they could miss 1/3 of the lab course I teach because it conflicts with another class they are taking at another university. And they were already planning to skip the other class on the other 2/3 of the term (what? why?). And they NEED to take both because they have [big life goals] and [complicating issues]. They promise that they are a "very dedicated student". I'm not convinced. They missed the first day of lab & didn't do the make-up assignment that I offered. Fingers crossed that they drop.
Makes the "I didn't know classes started in Week 1" emails look easy to deal with!
Sadly, you win, the_geneticist! Put a pillow on your desk before you hurt yourself! (And if Murphy is any guide, that's the student who won't drop, come hell or high water.)
The student dropped!
I think I've used up all my good luck/karma. But it's worth it!
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 24, 2022, 03:06:32 PM
We offer Summer term classes here. I got an email from a student asking if they could miss 1/3 of the lab course I teach because it conflicts with another class they are taking at another university. And they were already planning to skip the other class on the other 2/3 of the term (what? why?). And they NEED to take both because they have [big life goals] and [complicating issues]. They promise that they are a "very dedicated student". I'm not convinced. They missed the first day of lab & didn't do the make-up assignment that I offered. Fingers crossed that they drop.
Makes the "I didn't know classes started in Week 1" emails look easy to deal with!
Wow! That's a new one. We're more likely at my college to get students who think they can take time off during the summer term for vacation. "But it's only a week." SIGH.
I once had a couple of students who were friends decide that one of them would attend class on Tuesdays and the other one on Thursdays. Why did they think that this was a good idea? Because according to the syllabus, students who miss a class should ask a classmate for their notes so they can come prepared for the next class. Both students failed; one complained to the chair who was most sympathetic when I showed Chair the attendance sheet and also the student's responses to the take-home final exam.
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 03, 2022, 09:47:53 AM
I once had a couple of students who were friends decide that one of them would attend class on Tuesdays and the other one on Thursdays. Why did they think that this was a good idea? Because according to the syllabus, students who miss a class should ask a classmate for their notes so they can come prepared for the next class. Both students failed; one complained to the chair who was most sympathetic when I showed Chair the attendance sheet and also the student's responses to the take-home final exam.
WOW. I'm trying to wrap my brain around how they came to the conclusion that they would succeed with this scheme.
Get notes from a classmate = we can alternate who skips!
To be fair, in my senior year of college I had a psychology course which met at 9:00 am, which was way too early for me to get up on a regular basis. The psychology course was the least science-y course that fulfilled our science requirement, so I had to take it (and pass it). I had a friend in the course who lent me her notes every week and let me know when the exams were. I showed up for the first class and the exams, and not for one other class session for the whole semester. But she took very good notes, and I studied them, and I passed. So it's possible with the right degree of focus.
I think the problem for your students, Langue_doc, was that they alternated coming. They needed to designate one student the official attendee, who would actually understand what was happening, and then the other student could just debrief the official attendee.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2022, 05:35:10 PM
I think the problem for your students, Langue_doc, was that they alternated coming. They needed to designate one student the official attendee, who would actually understand what was happening, and then the other student could just debrief the official attendee.
But then one of them would have to attend and do the work all the time! Who wants to do that for a college class?
Quote
I think the problem for your students, Langue_doc, was that they alternated coming. They needed to designate one student the official attendee, who would actually understand what was happening, and then the other student could just debrief the official attendee.
They could have passed the course if they had both taken notes, not only of the lectures but also of the discussions, reviewed each other's notes, and also reviewed the assigned readings. One of them had abysmal study habits, as I recall. The other didn't seem to benefit from Friend's notes as Friend was a poor note-taker.
Quote from: apl68 on July 07, 2022, 07:40:25 AM
But then one of them would have to attend and do the work all the time! Who wants to do that for a college class?
Of course — what was I thinking? <thunks self on head>
Quote from: Hegemony on July 07, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on July 07, 2022, 07:40:25 AM
But then one of them would have to attend and do the work all the time! Who wants to do that for a college class?
Of course — what was I thinking? <thunks self on head>
Ha!
I have a student who let me know that stu has 'fallen behind' because stu is taking four classes this summer. Stu wants to know if I can open up assignments so that stu can complete them.
*Sigh*
It's times like these that I wonder if I am evolving into an ancient, cantankerous, fossilized hard ass. I feel bad for them- I remember being a student, but I was anal retentive and stubborn as hell (I didn't fall weeks behind in my work), but I also remember how stressful it was.
Does anyone else kind of vacillate between, 'Damn, there's a lot of shit going on in the world, maybe I should cut this kid some slack? You know, everybody gets "one" freebie.' and 'Dammit! Why the hell are you telling me this now? I'm not responsible for you deciding to take FOUR classes over the summer!'
For sure, I experience that a lot. I'm not even particularly consistent in my responses to individual requests. But I do tend to distinguish between the student being unfortunate due to bad circumstances and the student making stupid decisions (like taking 4 summer courses they can't keep up with). Sometimes I have students taking 7 classes during the regular semester. Some carry it off, but not always. When they are the ones who are playing the high risk game, they have to take the consequences if it ends up being too much.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 09, 2022, 12:35:26 PM
Does anyone else kind of vacillate between, 'Damn, there's a lot of shit going on in the world, maybe I should cut this kid some slack? You know, everybody gets "one" freebie.' and 'Dammit! Why the hell are you telling me this now? I'm not responsible for you deciding to take FOUR classes over the summer!'
Rarely. I have cut some slack only for students who otherwise had a solid track record. Since I'm sure that you warned students ad nauseum about the pace and workload of your summer course, I would tell that student to consider dropping the course now so that they can concentrate on their remaining classes.
I checked and this ding dong missed half of the quizzes (really short tests). We are halfway through the summer semester. This kid's going to be pretty disappointed when I tell stu, 'No. I am not opening up half of the quizzes for you to take when everyone else paid attention and read the damn syllabus AND read my announcement reminders AND took the quizzes.' This kid's probably going to fail. Sheesh!
Quote from: downer on July 09, 2022, 01:13:24 PM
For sure, I experience that a lot. I'm not even particularly consistent in my responses to individual requests. But I do tend to distinguish between the student being unfortunate due to bad circumstances and the student making stupid decisions (like taking 4 summer courses they can't keep up with). Sometimes I have students taking 7 classes during the regular semester. Some carry it off, but not always. When they are the ones who are playing the high risk game, they have to take the consequences if it ends up being too much.
Yeah, I try to make those distinctions too, but it can get tricky. Sometimes its easy enough. Hospitalizations and concussions are obviously bad circumstances and I make allowances. It's all the other stuff that can be impossible to be consistent with. On some level, if you are failing a class because you aren't submitting things, there's probably
something going on. Mental health stuff gets tricky. My impulse is to tell students who have car issues and can't get to class for weeks that I already drop several assignments to account for this kind of thing and can't do much else about it, but I often worry that I bring my own standards to these things in unfair ways. If I got a serious illness, that would certainly keep me from coming to class. If my car breaks down, I'm still going to be there unless I'm on the side of the road when class is happening. But that's because I have enough financial security to pay for repairs to my car, get a new one if I have to and get to class while I'm dealing with the whole thing.
Have I mentioned that this is an online class? SMH. I guess I should be banging my head.
Ugh. I'm teaching a summer course that is about 1/4 students from [other major] who are taking this class to get ahead during the summer. These students are awesome. They are organized, thoughtful, and stay on task. They are also juniors taking a freshman level class so they are honestly too advanced to be taking it this late, but they are great students. The other 3/4 are students who have previously attempted the course and dropped or failed. Some of them more than once. The "go to class, turn stuff in" advice isn't sticking.
One repeater is upset that they scored a 0 on an assignment. Why? They turned in another student's work. They are claiming they "didn't know" it was supposed to be a picture and description of their (basket) as opposed to any (basket).
And no one is taking advantage of the extra credit that's due this week. I anticipate much whining.
It's a shame that it is frowned upon to reply to these students: Booooohooooo.
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 11, 2022, 07:54:19 AM
Ugh. I'm teaching a summer course that is about 1/4 students from [other major] who are taking this class to get ahead during the summer. These students are awesome. They are organized, thoughtful, and stay on task. They are also juniors taking a freshman level class so they are honestly too advanced to be taking it this late, but they are great students. The other 3/4 are students who have previously attempted the course and dropped or failed. Some of them more than once. The "go to class, turn stuff in" advice isn't sticking.
One repeater is upset that they scored a 0 on an assignment. Why? They turned in another student's work. They are claiming they "didn't know" it was supposed to be a picture and description of their (basket) as opposed to any (basket).
And no one is taking advantage of the extra credit that's due this week. I anticipate much whining.
How did you end up with 3/4 of your class being students who have been unsuccessful previously? Was this summer course added specifically to give students anther attempt? I would think that set-up would lead to a very low pass rate. At least you have the other 1/4 of the class who will likely pass!
This is an email series, in the order exchanged, but it really fits this thread:
#1:
Professor,
Is the points I got and will earn there not enough to pass? Did writing center points help me? I have been going a lot.
#2:
[Student],
As of the end of Module 2, you've earned 218 total points. To pass with the lowest C, you need at least 700 points, so you'd need an additional 482 points to pass. With only 470 points remaining in the semester, it's impossible for you to pass--even if you'd earn every one of those remaining points, it wouldn't be enough to bring your grade up to the 700 required.
No points are awarded to anyone for visiting the Writing Center. Working with them is an optional activity intended to improve your skills so that your scores on the regular assignments will improve.
Prof. [Hist]
#3:
Professor
I s there anything I can do to get a B?
Um. . . . . <thud - thud - thud> (though it probably explains why the grade is what it is)
Quote from: OneMoreYear on July 11, 2022, 08:34:55 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 11, 2022, 07:54:19 AM
Ugh. I'm teaching a summer course that is about 1/4 students from [other major] who are taking this class to get ahead during the summer. These students are awesome. They are organized, thoughtful, and stay on task. They are also juniors taking a freshman level class so they are honestly too advanced to be taking it this late, but they are great students. The other 3/4 are students who have previously attempted the course and dropped or failed. Some of them more than once. The "go to class, turn stuff in" advice isn't sticking.
One repeater is upset that they scored a 0 on an assignment. Why? They turned in another student's work. They are claiming they "didn't know" it was supposed to be a picture and description of their (basket) as opposed to any (basket).
And no one is taking advantage of the extra credit that's due this week. I anticipate much whining.
How did you end up with 3/4 of your class being students who have been unsuccessful previously? Was this summer course added specifically to give students anther attempt? I would think that set-up would lead to a very low pass rate. At least you have the other 1/4 of the class who will likely pass!
We offer this course every quarter. My university extended the drop dates until AFTER final exams due to COVID. Then put the drop date with no W as week 8 of 10. Normally, we only allow 2 attempts - fail twice and you get kicked out of the major. But the super late drop date meant I have students who didn't *technically* fail since they dropped. More than once for some of them. I think these students either ought to change majors or take a break from college, but I'm not an advisor.
I want them to succeed, but I'm not dragging them kicking and screaming towards passing. They have to come to class and turn stuff in.
Quote from: AmLitHist on July 11, 2022, 10:31:24 AM
This is an email series, in the order exchanged, but it really fits this thread:
#1:
Professor,
Is the points I got and will earn there not enough to pass? Did writing center points help me? I have been going a lot.
#2:
[Student],
As of the end of Module 2, you've earned 218 total points. To pass with the lowest C, you need at least 700 points, so you'd need an additional 482 points to pass. With only 470 points remaining in the semester, it's impossible for you to pass--even if you'd earn every one of those remaining points, it wouldn't be enough to bring your grade up to the 700 required.
No points are awarded to anyone for visiting the Writing Center. Working with them is an optional activity intended to improve your skills so that your scores on the regular assignments will improve.
Prof. [Hist]
#3:
Professor
I s there anything I can do to get a B?
Um. . . . . <thud - thud - thud> (though it probably explains why the grade is what it is)
You forgot to mention the easy extra credit assignment worth 500 points.
Maybe you needed to add "You Cannot Pass. You Shall Not Pass!"
Quote from: Anon1787 on July 11, 2022, 01:39:36 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on July 11, 2022, 10:31:24 AM
This is an email series, in the order exchanged, but it really fits this thread:
#1:
Professor,
Is the points I got and will earn there not enough to pass? Did writing center points help me? I have been going a lot.
#2:
[Student],
As of the end of Module 2, you've earned 218 total points. To pass with the lowest C, you need at least 700 points, so you'd need an additional 482 points to pass. With only 470 points remaining in the semester, it's impossible for you to pass--even if you'd earn every one of those remaining points, it wouldn't be enough to bring your grade up to the 700 required.
No points are awarded to anyone for visiting the Writing Center. Working with them is an optional activity intended to improve your skills so that your scores on the regular assignments will improve.
Prof. [Hist]
#3:
Professor
I s there anything I can do to get a B?
Um. . . . . <thud - thud - thud> (though it probably explains why the grade is what it is)
You forgot to mention the easy extra credit assignment worth 500 points.
At least it's mathematically impossible for your student to pass. That's an easier conversation than the "it's technically possible for you to pass, but not if you earn the same scores on the remaining work as your previous work. Realistically, you will not pass."
Maybe something like:
"A Hail Mary throw at the end of the game doesn't usually end up with a completed pass. Some poor receiver usually just winds up on their knees in the mud in the end zone..."
Just to put it in language they might understand...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 11, 2022, 03:50:10 PM
Maybe something like:
"A Hail Mary throw at the end of the game doesn't usually end up with a completed pass. Some poor receiver usually just winds up on their knees in the mud in the end zone..."
Just to put it in language they might understand...
M.
That's a decent metaphor. The only problem is that a football game is a discrete event, so there's no real cost to trying to throw the pass even if it is very unlikely to be successful. The players don't have other things they could be spending that 6 seconds doing, so they might as well give it a shot. A gambling/math metaphor about expected value captures the situation more accurately, but it is far more confusing than Mamselle's so much less useful.
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2022, 04:45:48 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 11, 2022, 03:50:10 PM
Maybe something like:
"A Hail Mary throw at the end of the game doesn't usually end up with a completed pass. Some poor receiver usually just winds up on their knees in the mud in the end zone..."
Just to put it in language they might understand...
M.
That's a decent metaphor. The only problem is that a football game is a discrete event, so there's no real cost to trying to throw the pass even if it is very unlikely to be successful. The players don't have other things they could be spending that 6 seconds doing, so they might as well give it a shot. A gambling/math metaphor about expected value captures the situation more accurately, but it is far more confusing than Mamselle's so much less useful.
Perhaps a better metaphor would be going to Vegas and spending all but your last $1, then going to the casino and using it in a slot machine to finance your trip home. Technically, it
could work, but it's a ridiculously bad strategy.
I've got fifteen students in my summer class. We're in week 2. Today I had a non-zero number of students need pens to take the quiz. The level of engagement is right about nil.
Apparently some people don't catch puns in midair, either.
;--}
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 12, 2022, 07:03:20 AM
Quote from: Caracal on July 12, 2022, 04:45:48 AM
Quote from: mamselle on July 11, 2022, 03:50:10 PM
Maybe something like:
"A Hail Mary throw at the end of the game doesn't usually end up with a completed pass. Some poor receiver usually just winds up on their knees in the mud in the end zone..."
Just to put it in language they might understand...
M.
That's a decent metaphor. The only problem is that a football game is a discrete event, so there's no real cost to trying to throw the pass even if it is very unlikely to be successful. The players don't have other things they could be spending that 6 seconds doing, so they might as well give it a shot. A gambling/math metaphor about expected value captures the situation more accurately, but it is far more confusing than Mamselle's so much less useful.
Perhaps a better metaphor would be going to Vegas and spending all but your last $1, then going to the casino and using it in a slot machine to finance your trip home. Technically, it could work, but it's a ridiculously bad strategy.
Its more like gambling the last 50 bucks on a long shot, hoping to recoup your losses, instead of using that money to buy your bus ticket home. It's bad that you've lost all your money, but you need to accept that, go home and rebuild things instead of chasing lost causes and ending up stuck in Vegas with no money.
Our first exam is next week. I think it's going to be a rude wake-up call for students who have been relying on their lab partners to answer the questions in their worksheets.
A student has cited an essay by studycorgi.com, which is apparently an essay writing service and "free essay database for inspiration" as a source in a research paper. The even worse part is that they are citing studycorgi b/c the free example paper has a graph from the US census (actually relevant to the student's topic). Instead of just going to the census site, so they could cite the graph correctly from the census, they cited it from studycorgi. Laziness? Absolute cluelessness? I don't know.
That's particularly egregious but as a librarian I can tell you I run into students, and sorry to say even faculty, who just do not want to hear that they should make the effort to find the original, when it's a reasonably widely published source. It comes up when they contact me asking how to cite in APA/MLA a quotation from an article/book that is itself a quotation from another source. And APA Manual doesn't help when it basically says don't do it and then gives the reference syntax for doing it anyway. Not talking about obscure/primary/private-communication originals here, but heaven forbid they should have to wait for an ILL request to go through so they can see the original text!
Quote from: mbelvadi on July 14, 2022, 07:50:31 AM
Not talking about obscure/primary/private-communication originals here, but heaven forbid they should have to wait for an ILL request to go through so they can see the original text!
Well, they may only have submitted the ILL request only a few days before their deadline to have it, not realizing that ILLs can take time. I recall patrons doing that when I worked in ILL.
And here it comes: Didn't do any work until the last day of the class, didn't do ANY Of the lecture quizzed, ended up with a 59.3%:
"Hi prof. hope you're well, I just need an explanation as to how I got an E in your class when I finished more than half of the assigned work. I'm not going to insult your intelligence but my grade should be at the lowest a C-."
Words fail me, for now.
Consider your intelligence insulted?
Really, though--sorry it comes to this.
Head-scratcher.
M.
Quote from: FishProf on July 14, 2022, 10:36:35 AM
And here it comes: Didn't do any work until the last day of the class, didn't do ANY Of the lecture quizzed, ended up with a 59.3%:
"Hi prof. hope you're well, I just need an explanation as to how I got an E in your class when I finished more than half of the assigned work. I'm not going to insult your intelligence but my grade should be at the lowest a C-."
Words fail me, for now.
Maybe tell Stu that you can't find a math error and ask Stu to show how s/h/it did those calculations?
Fantasy reply: I don't want to insult YOUR intelligence, but 59 < 60.
Quote from: FishProf on July 14, 2022, 11:44:54 AM
Fantasy reply: I don't want to insult YOUR intelligence, but 59 < 60.
Oh hell, I DO want to insult your intelligence, and 59 < 60.
I wouldn't give an open ended reply or invite any further discussion on the topic. I'd be reluctant to give an explanation at all, though there was one time when the student went to the chair after I said something like "The grade is correct. Bye." So maybe a minimal explanation.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 14, 2022, 11:43:34 AM
Quote from: FishProf on July 14, 2022, 10:36:35 AM
And here it comes: Didn't do any work until the last day of the class, didn't do ANY Of the lecture quizzed, ended up with a 59.3%:
"Hi prof. hope you're well, I just need an explanation as to how I got an E in your class when I finished more than half of the assigned work. I'm not going to insult your intelligence but my grade should be at the lowest a C-."
Words fail me, for now.
Maybe tell Stu that you can't find a math error and ask Stu to show how s/h/it did those calculations?
I doubt the student did any calculations. This sounds like the student believes that completion of half of the work (regardless of quality?) guarantees a passing grade.
Does the student have access to their scores/percent in the CMS? If so, I'd suggest a response inviting the student to review the scores and feedback on their work (letting you know, of course, if they find an error) and comparing it to the grading scale shown in the syllabus, which was provided to them on the first day of class.
Quote from: Chemystery on July 14, 2022, 12:24:19 PM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 14, 2022, 11:43:34 AM
Quote from: FishProf on July 14, 2022, 10:36:35 AM
And here it comes: Didn't do any work until the last day of the class, didn't do ANY Of the lecture quizzed, ended up with a 59.3%:
"Hi prof. hope you're well, I just need an explanation as to how I got an E in your class when I finished more than half of the assigned work. I'm not going to insult your intelligence but my grade should be at the lowest a C-."
Words fail me, for now.
Maybe tell Stu that you can't find a math error and ask Stu to show how s/h/it did those calculations?
I doubt the student did any calculations. This sounds like the student believes that completion of half of the work (regardless of quality?) guarantees a passing grade.
Does the student have access to their scores/percent in the CMS? If so, I'd suggest a response inviting the student to review the scores and feedback on their work (letting you know, of course, if they find an error) and comparing it to the grading scale shown in the syllabus, which was provided to them on the first day of class.
I completely agree that Stu probably didn't lift a finger to do anything besides complain!
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 14, 2022, 12:26:52 PM
Quote from: Chemystery on July 14, 2022, 12:24:19 PM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on July 14, 2022, 11:43:34 AM
Quote from: FishProf on July 14, 2022, 10:36:35 AM
And here it comes: Didn't do any work until the last day of the class, didn't do ANY Of the lecture quizzed, ended up with a 59.3%:
"Hi prof. hope you're well, I just need an explanation as to how I got an E in your class when I finished more than half of the assigned work. I'm not going to insult your intelligence but my grade should be at the lowest a C-."
Words fail me, for now.
Maybe tell Stu that you can't find a math error and ask Stu to show how s/h/it did those calculations?
I doubt the student did any calculations. This sounds like the student believes that completion of half of the work (regardless of quality?) guarantees a passing grade.
Does the student have access to their scores/percent in the CMS? If so, I'd suggest a response inviting the student to review the scores and feedback on their work (letting you know, of course, if they find an error) and comparing it to the grading scale shown in the syllabus, which was provided to them on the first day of class.
I completely agree that Stu probably didn't lift a finger to do anything besides complain!
I wouldn't invite further conversation. This isn't a negotiation, you are simply recording the score they have earned.
Dear stu,
Course grades have been submitted to the registrar. Please see the syllabus for the grade-cutoffs.
Dr. Fish_Prof
Then put in a fake auto reply if needed.
Actual response
Stu,
Per the syllabus, you needed a 60% to pass the course. You did not reach that mark.
If you wish to challenge the grade, you can contact the Department chair at ......
Fishprof
So far, crickets.....
I swear to everything that is holy... I just got an email from a student who 'just noticed' (not kidding, these words were used) that stu is 'not doing well.' Stu also acknowledged that stu missed 2 out of 7 quizzes (basically tests), among other things. Stu is worried about stu's grade.
Um, yeah, I would be worried too, but I also wouldn't have skipped 2 quizzes and 2 other assignments. Stu has a 21.6% in the class.
Sigh...
Edit: I just checked and the highest grade stu has on any quiz is a 44%. Stu should have dropped a loooooooong time ago.
I join you in your swearing, EPW:
A guy who'd had a low A in my online Comp I copied, nearly 100% verbatim, another student's original post to last week's discussion board. (Have I mentioned my loathing for DB's to begin with?) So I spent a couple of hours yesterday morning doing all the paperwork, reporting him to the office of the VC for Academics (a genuine d&^%e himself), cc'ing my dept chair, and emailing the student all the relevant documentation.
Late yesterday evening he emailed me in a somewhat indignant tone that "I don't cheat off of other's work. I always do my work then post it before checking the other's for peer review. I see how it looks like I plagerized" [um, maybe because you DID??] "and I'm sorry for that. From now on before I post I will look to make sure nothing is identical to anyone else's. I'm sorry for this inconvenience."
An inconvenience and aggravation for me, guy, but I hope it earns you a royal ass-chewing from the VCAA. And since you still seem clueless/in denial/don't give a damn, lotsa luck on your [sure to come] next go-round. I just hope you aren't in my class when you do it; if you are, I'll push hard for your suspension.
(For clueless/"accidental"/"unintentional" plagiarism, I can approach it as a teaching experience. For verbatim copying, I'm merciless. Not warm and fuzzy, I suppose, but I'm also not so stupid as they seem to think I am, that I won't notice it.)
Ugh.
You might try a plagiarism checker for BOTH of the students. They might have both copied from the same source materials.
I wish there was the option of automatically running every discussion post through turnitin.com.
Quote from: downer on July 18, 2022, 02:13:51 PM
I wish there was the option of automatically running every discussion post through turnitin.com.
That's a good idea. Someone make it so.
Damn ALH, that sucks. I don't understand students who do this. I mean how likely is it that he would come up with almost exactly the same discussion post? You and I both know it's very unlikely, but I swear some of these students are clueless. Do they honestly think that we won't notice these things?
Quote from: AmLitHist on July 18, 2022, 01:07:42 PM
I join you in your swearing, EPW:
A guy who'd had a low A in my online Comp I copied, nearly 100% verbatim, another student's original post to last week's discussion board. (Have I mentioned my loathing for DB's to begin with?) So I spent a couple of hours yesterday morning doing all the paperwork, reporting him to the office of the VC for Academics (a genuine d&^%e himself), cc'ing my dept chair, and emailing the student all the relevant documentation.
Late yesterday evening he emailed me in a somewhat indignant tone that "I don't cheat off of other's work. I always do my work then post it before checking the other's for peer review. I see how it looks like I plagerized" [um, maybe because you DID??] "and I'm sorry for that. From now on before I post I will look to make sure nothing is identical to anyone else's. I'm sorry for this inconvenience."
An inconvenience and aggravation for me, guy, but I hope it earns you a royal ass-chewing from the VCAA. And since you still seem clueless/in denial/don't give a damn, lotsa luck on your [sure to come] next go-round. I just hope you aren't in my class when you do it; if you are, I'll push hard for your suspension.
(For clueless/"accidental"/"unintentional" plagiarism, I can approach it as a teaching experience. For verbatim copying, I'm merciless. Not warm and fuzzy, I suppose, but I'm also not so stupid as they seem to think I am, that I won't notice it.)
Not sure on the timing or the circumstances, but is there any chance the copying could have gone the other way? I'm thinking of a friend who had a bizarre case where two students turned in almost identical papers and it turned out that one of the students lived across the hall from the other student and went into their room while they were taking a break from working on the paper, copied the paper, sent it to themselves, made some minor cosmetic changes and turned it in. The student who was copied from had no idea any of this had happened. Not saying this kind of thing is likely here, but if the student really claims to be totally confused, its always worth having a discussion with them to see if they could be telling the truth.
Students, if you thought the exam was "so hard" why didn't you spend more time answering the questions?
Might be time for a chat about expectations, time management, and exam strategies.
Quote from: downer on July 18, 2022, 02:13:51 PM
I wish there was the option of automatically running every discussion post through turnitin.com.
I switched some discussions to assignments to be able to do this. I'm tempted to change all of them; discussion boards are pretty much useless in my opinion (I teach all first-years in a 101-level course).
Quote from: fosca on July 19, 2022, 06:59:17 PM
Quote from: downer on July 18, 2022, 02:13:51 PM
I wish there was the option of automatically running every discussion post through turnitin.com.
I switched some discussions to assignments to be able to do this. I'm tempted to change all of them; discussion boards are pretty much useless in my opinion (I teach all first-years in a 101-level course).
Good point. You can use turnitin on assignments. Now, if I could just get my students to do them...
Got an email at 6am from a student who said that stu's parent has been ill. Unfortunately, stu has not turned in six lab reports (corresponding to the past three weeks) and wants to do it now. I asked for documentation. Student responded with pleading. I'm not sure what to believe, but why the hell do they wait until the last damn minute? Today is the last day of class.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 20, 2022, 06:25:40 AM
Got an email at 6am from a student who said that stu's parent has been ill. Unfortunately, stu has not turned in six lab reports (corresponding to the past three weeks) and wants to do it now. I asked for documentation. Student responded with pleading. I'm not sure what to believe, but why the hell do they wait until the last damn minute? Today is the last day of class.
Because they want an incomplete rather than an F. Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow?
Quote from: arcturus on July 20, 2022, 06:32:36 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 20, 2022, 06:25:40 AM
Got an email at 6am from a student who said that stu's parent has been ill. Unfortunately, stu has not turned in six lab reports (corresponding to the past three weeks) and wants to do it now. I asked for documentation. Student responded with pleading. I'm not sure what to believe, but why the hell do they wait until the last damn minute? Today is the last day of class.
Because they want an incomplete rather than an F. Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow?
Stu didn't ask for one, but maybe that was implied?
Edit: Actually, stu emailed me at 3:30 this morning. I plan to mention that there are emergency withdrawals (which can be taken a year after the fact), but I cannot accommodate missing three weeks of work.
At the start of any term, and especially in short ones, I emphasize at the start that students need to be in communication with me early on about problems they are experiencing that interferes with their work. When a student comes up with an excuse right at the end when they haven't been in communication with me, I say sorry, it's too late now. The only exceptions I allow are when the student gets their faculty advisor or some equivalent person to vouch for them, or they have strong documentation of their problems. Even then, I know the chances are that the Incomplete will just turn into a Fail.
The one time I had to take an incomplete, my instructor said, "Since these usually turn into 'F's,' my rule is that if the material isn't made up by mid-term week, it's an automatic fail."
I got it done and turned in a week later (which was all I'd needed, anyway).
M.
The (growing) disconnect between admin and faculty (and staff) is frustrating. How does the admin expect to keep asking faculty to do more with less? And then be surprised when faculty don't want to do more? "You don't want to take on this new service activity even though you won't get a course release and you will be taking a pay cut from another position you took?" "Your job is so important to the campus. Here are more things you can do in your job, even though we're not going to give you any support staff to help!!" Every time I start to regret that I didn't take some full-time opportunities on campus, I'm reminded by someone or something that for my own sanity, it's a good thing I didn't!
The bricks-and straw mismatch famously led one clientele of workers to depart.
If I recall, you've considered an Exodus of your own from time to time.
Has that time come?
(Prod-prod...)
M.
Quote from: mamselle on July 20, 2022, 03:58:09 PM
The bricks-and straw mismatch famously led one clientele of workers to depart.
If I recall, you've considered an Exodus of your own from time to time.
Has that time come?
(Prod-prod...)
M.
I know I just said that I'm glad that I didn't take the admin position - and I am - but I probably screwed myself. Every semester/year I'm not doing it, I'm losing experience that I could have used to show that I have X number of years experience. I don't know how I get more experience that other places want so I'll probably stay in the faculty ranks.
Or, are there any angled, lateral moves that might provide an off-ramp?
Just pondering...
M.
In my head there are! But I'm still on lots of job sites and I don't really come across them that often.
I had a student approach me about having a scheduling conflict for the midterms - saying she had a midterm at the same time as our Friday class and therefore a conflict between that midterm and our Friday quiz. This is slightly suspicious because most midterms are held after regular classes, but not all so it's possible in principle. This student, instead of talking to me, went to talk to administrators - who told her to talk to me. The real kicker? I've repeatedly announced in class, and it's on the syllabus, that we don't have a Friday quiz on midterms week. We have a midterm. On Wednesday. So there's no conflict in the first place.
Quote from: Stockmann on July 22, 2022, 07:35:10 AM
I had a student approach me about having a scheduling conflict for the midterms - saying she had a midterm at the same time as our Friday class and therefore a conflict between that midterm and our Friday quiz. This is slightly suspicious because most midterms are held after regular classes, but not all so it's possible in principle. This student, instead of talking to me, went to talk to administrators - who told her to talk to me. The real kicker? I've repeatedly announced in class, and it's on the syllabus, that we don't have a Friday quiz on midterms week. We have a midterm. On Wednesday. So there's no conflict in the first place.
So many possible reasons for this....
- Maybe she wanted a long weekend?
- Would a single much-improved quiz grade (due to some focused study) really change the class grade?
- Etc.
Instead, we learn that she doesn't read or remember the syllabus, doesn't have a planner to keep her organized & on track, doesn't pay attention in (or maybe attend?) class, and has no idea of how to correctly work with a chain-of-command.
One of the normal benefits of a traditional college experience is getting lots of opportunities to learn about all of these things in an environment that is usually lower-stakes and more supportive than an actual job traditionally is.
She does attend class, so I guess she just doesn't pay attention. Also, if she doesn't take the midterm, the final just replaces the midterm - and yes, it's in the syllabus - so even if she had had a conflict with the midterm, there's kind of an in-built solution.
Turns out that she has a conflict for the final instead - which is also kind of a non-issue since if she misses the final it's replaced by a weighted average of other stuff (yeah, policies for the recurring-covid-waves era...) - this is also on the syllabus.
<rant>Why am I spending hours gathering primary sources and ensuring that they have been edited down to bite-sized morsels when most students still won't read them? (The textbook is a useful supplement, not a substitute.)</rant>
I'm having to say "I can't care more than they do".
Almost 1/4 of the class hasn't turned in an easy assignment that they need as part of their class project. Their TAs reminded them, I reminded them. They can turn it in late with a small penalty.
They seem so ready to be done with Summer classes. I'm ready to be done too!
But the class has 4 more weeks.
I wish I could get one of my summer students to understand that assignments are due in class. He realizes that he's forgotten to do an assignment, so he scrambles in the wake of class to finish it. Then he does not put it in my mailbox in the department -- he just crams it in the crack in my office door. But I share an office with two other folks, and random papers sometimes gets lost. Now he's claiming he submitted his final paper (late) to my office door, but no one seems to know where it is.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 05, 2022, 05:44:25 AM
I wish I could get one of my summer students to understand that assignments are due in class. He realizes that he's forgotten to do an assignment, so he scrambles in the wake of class to finish it. Then he does not put it in my mailbox in the department -- he just crams it in the crack in my office door. But I share an office with two other folks, and random papers sometimes gets lost. Now he's claiming he submitted his final paper (late) to my office door, but no one seems to know where it is.
This is why I only allow submissions on the CMS (and tell them they are responsible for checking it actually went through)-- everything is logged and time stamped, so no arguments.
Quote from: Puget on August 05, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 05, 2022, 05:44:25 AM
I wish I could get one of my summer students to understand that assignments are due in class. He realizes that he's forgotten to do an assignment, so he scrambles in the wake of class to finish it. Then he does not put it in my mailbox in the department -- he just crams it in the crack in my office door. But I share an office with two other folks, and random papers sometimes gets lost. Now he's claiming he submitted his final paper (late) to my office door, but no one seems to know where it is.
This is why I only allow submissions on the CMS (and tell them they are responsible for checking it actually went through)-- everything is logged and time stamped, so no arguments.
Tell him to email it to you by a specific day and time (like 5:00 today). If he really wrote it, then it's no problem.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 05, 2022, 07:24:42 AM
Quote from: Puget on August 05, 2022, 07:23:03 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on August 05, 2022, 05:44:25 AM
I wish I could get one of my summer students to understand that assignments are due in class. He realizes that he's forgotten to do an assignment, so he scrambles in the wake of class to finish it. Then he does not put it in my mailbox in the department -- he just crams it in the crack in my office door. But I share an office with two other folks, and random papers sometimes gets lost. Now he's claiming he submitted his final paper (late) to my office door, but no one seems to know where it is.
This is why I only allow submissions on the CMS (and tell them they are responsible for checking it actually went through)-- everything is logged and time stamped, so no arguments.
Tell him to email it to you by a specific day and time (like 5:00 today). If he really wrote it, then it's no problem.
As a portfolio assignment with a few different components, this isn't just a Word doc they can send to me. Syllabus stipulates that assignments are submitted in class, and that students need to be in class to submit assignments.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 05, 2022, 11:50:22 AM
As a portfolio assignment with a few different components, this isn't just a Word doc they can send to me. Syllabus stipulates that assignments are submitted in class, and that students need to be in class to submit assignments.
Why do you accept late assignments that fail to meet that requirement? If you're willing to accept late assignments not submitted during class you should specify a clear procedure that students must follow (e.g., late assignments must be submitted to your mailbox to receive any credit).
Put a zero in the grade book and call it a day.
+1 to what others have suggested.
Stu wasn't in class, didn't submit hu's assignment, so assignment earns a zero.
You aren't responsible for assignments that are pushed through cracks in your office door instead of being submitted in person in the classroom.
Dear incoming graduate student, we still have two weeks until the semester starts and you are already on my list. Unless you demonstrate an immediate and significant improvement in your problem solving skills, I do not foresee you having the critical thinking skills to make it through one semester of this program, much less graduate.
Of note, I am the professor for two of your first year graduate courses. I am not your kindergarten teacher. "What should you do?" You should think.
Quote from: Langue_doc on August 06, 2022, 06:20:29 AM
+1 to what others have suggested.
Stu wasn't in class, didn't submit hu's assignment, so assignment earns a zero.
You aren't responsible for assignments that are pushed through cracks in your office door instead of being submitted in person in the classroom.
Whenever he swung by my office in the past, I took his stuff because it seemed cruel just to say "walk across the street and put it in my office box." It's easier just to take it then.
But the dude WAS in class. That's why it's so nutty. It's like he doesn't realize it's due until he sees everyone else turning it in. And a zero on the final project means an F in the class. And if that's run up the chain there's no guarantee that I'll not get in trouble for following my policies if I could have extended grace. I've been reprimanded before for entering a zero on a final project. That's just campus culture here.
Ye-ow. Reprimanded for giving the grade earned?
My sympathies.
M.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 06, 2022, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on August 06, 2022, 06:20:29 AM
+1 to what others have suggested.
Stu wasn't in class, didn't submit hu's assignment, so assignment earns a zero.
You aren't responsible for assignments that are pushed through cracks in your office door instead of being submitted in person in the classroom.
Whenever he swung by my office in the past, I took his stuff because it seemed cruel just to say "walk across the street and put it in my office box." It's easier just to take it then.
But the dude WAS in class. That's why it's so nutty. It's like he doesn't realize it's due until he sees everyone else turning it in. And a zero on the final project means an F in the class. And if that's run up the chain there's no guarantee that I'll not get in trouble for following my policies if I could have extended grace. I've been reprimanded before for entering a zero on a final project. That's just campus culture here.
Surely the student saved the files? I'm assuming this wasn't all written out by hand. Tell them to email you a new copy.
Quote from: RatGuy on August 06, 2022, 07:15:09 AM
But the dude WAS in class. That's why it's so nutty. It's like he doesn't realize it's due until he sees everyone else turning it in. And a zero on the final project means an F in the class. And if that's run up the chain there's no guarantee that I'll not get in trouble for following my policies if I could have extended grace. I've been reprimanded before for entering a zero on a final project. That's just campus culture here.
IMHO, your campus culture isn't doing students like this any favors. Be that as it may, why do you believe that Stu finished the assignment and forgot to submit it during class when it's more likely that Stu failed to finish it and has been playing for additional time (since that seems to be Stu's pattern of behavior)?
I would insist that Stu put another copy of the assignment in your mailbox (or in your hands directly) and the grace would be not to assess any additional penalty. Don't put yourself in the position of having to prove that you did not lose Stu's assignment.
OK, but wasn't part of the problem that it's a portfolio, not something that can be turned in online as such.
That usually implies (in the art world) a large 28" x 36" handled folder with contents that, these days, may also not just be 2-D, or may have parts that stick out, or whatever.
If it's some other discipline, the size or irregularity might be less of a factor, but a portfolio usually, still, can't be submitted online. It's not about sending a file, the work needs to be handed in by hand, is what it sounds like.
And if that's the case, then, you made yourself available for the handoff and the student wasn't there with the materials, so....that's it, usually.
M.
What did this incoming grad student do two weeks before the semester started to warrant such a rebuke, albeit on an anonymous ol forum?
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 06, 2022, 09:53:37 PM
What did this incoming grad student do two weeks before the semester started to warrant such a rebuke, albeit on an anonymous ol forum?
Ignored multiple emails from our department chair regarding important concepts such as class registration, claimed they must have never been sent such information (yes, they had been sent everything), asked me what they should do about it (read your emails!), then proceeded to ask questions that indicated they must have ignored a large portion of information about what they were signing up for when they enrolled in our program.
I'm not the chair, their advisor, or an administrative assistant (despite the fact that they continued to call me Mrs. Year in their emails). I'm an instructor who was sending information about book ordering b/c we have a new system this year, when I got caught up in an email exchange with this very lost student.
I was nice, kaysixteen, I helped them find the information, get set up, and answered their questions. If I was this student's advisor and they were coming in to our undergrad program straight from high school, some of their confusion would have been understandable. Not at the graduate level,
when all of the information they needed was already provided to them. The level of cluelessness and lack of problems-solving demonstrated in the email exchange was concerning, so I rant here.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on August 07, 2022, 06:18:18 AM
Ignored multiple emails from our department chair regarding important concepts such as class registration, claimed they must have never been sent such information (yes, they had been sent everything), asked me what they should do about it (read your emails!), then proceeded to ask questions that indicated they must have ignored a large portion of information about what they were signing up for when they enrolled in our program.
I'm not the chair, their advisor, or an administrative assistant (despite the fact that they continued to call me Mrs. Year in their emails). I'm an instructor who was sending information about book ordering b/c we have a new system this year, when I got caught up in an email exchange with this very lost student.
<snip> If I was this student's advisor and they were coming in to our undergrad program straight from high school, some of their confusion would have been understandable. Not at the graduate level, when all of the information they needed was already provided to them. The level of cluelessness and lack of problems-solving demonstrated in the email exchange was concerning, so I rant here.
If I were you, I would alert the student's advisor with a cc to the Graduate Studies director about this student's mode of operations. They may be able to give this student a clue or three before further damage occurs.
Our summer students have been really varied in their skills. The really good students are as good as ever, but the struggling students are shockingly bad at the basics. Things like reading directions, turning in assignments, checking their scores, reading feedback on their assignments. One TA asked for what to do for a student who didn't do a task in class (it's OK! The assignment was due the next day! They could do it from home!). The student was under the impression that if they "forgot" to do [task], then they would be excused from the assignment.
Uh, no. That's not how this works.
Some of this is the general diffs between how today's Gen Z kids were raised by parents and indulged (at parents' insistence, more or less, in hs), but methinks some of this is the result of the previous two years of pandemic schooling policies, which were very difficult in k12.
From much that I've seen and heard, educational standards in K-12 have slipped disastrously due to two years of pandemic-related disruptions. There are a lot of students who've pretty much been waved through to get them passed through the system. Schools tried hard to provide distance education on the fly after schools were locked down and locked out, but in so many cases it just wasn't possible to make it work.
Quote from: apl68 on August 10, 2022, 06:15:15 AM
From much that I've seen and heard, educational standards in K-12 have slipped disastrously due to two years of pandemic-related disruptions. There are a lot of students who've pretty much been waved through to get them passed through the system. Schools tried hard to provide distance education on the fly after schools were locked down and locked out, but in so many cases it just wasn't possible to make it work.
Another recent news article in that genre:
https://news.yahoo.com/didnt-really-learn-anything-covid-055456220.html?.tsrc=374 (https://news.yahoo.com/didnt-really-learn-anything-covid-055456220.html?.tsrc=374)
One might have thought we would, as a nation, have realized this by now, but given the mass aversion to taxes and spending on the part of one of our parties (which also is increasingly hostile to education), and the fact that large numbers of voters in the other party either use private schools or elite public schools in very wealthy suburb areas, it is not that hard to see why we did not-- we have to be willing to allocate enormous resources now to efforts at mass ameiioration of those pandemic educational deficits, esp amongst poorer and non-white kids.
Quote from: kaysixteen on August 10, 2022, 09:25:09 PM
One might have thought we would, as a nation, have realized this by now, but given the mass aversion to taxes and spending on the part of one of our parties (which also is increasingly hostile to education), and the fact that large numbers of voters in the other party either use private schools or elite public schools in very wealthy suburb areas, it is not that hard to see why we did not-- we have to be willing to allocate enormous resources now to efforts at mass ameiioration of those pandemic educational deficits, esp amongst poorer and non-white kids.
How many Republican lawmakers
don't have a post-secondary education? And if most of their supporters are against education, why would they vote for representatives with more of it? My impression is that much opposition isn't to education per se, but rather to the ever-expanding emphasis of social engineering under the guise of "education". I'd love to see an experiment where people were offered a school choice which avoided all kinds of ideological instruction for kids, which had strong academic standards and required good conduct of students, but without all of the political baggage. I think getting support for it from the supposedly "anti-education" people would be easy.
I wonder how the experiences of students in nations around the world compare to each other? I've heard lots about the problems of U.S. students due to COVID disruptions, but nothing about how students elsewhere have fared.
@ marshwiggle: You're saying that they're asking for a hermenutic-free presentation of history, sociology, and civics.
Theoretically and practically, that's impossible. What is omitted just reflects a different hermeneutic, not a purified one.
@ apl68: For some, their structures were already fairly stiffly in place (I'm thinking France, Germany, the UK, other upper-middle-class Euro-zone places). They might not have had all the computer options we have, but they have had a good basic educational structure all along so that even if things were left out, many (not all) would have the grounding from which either to learn on their own, or to catch up later. Some may have resisted, but the educational work ethic in many of the places I've seen is pretty strong, so I'm guessing they did OK.
For others, at the very lowest levels of socio-economic/class status, they might have had enough home-based teaching structures to do some work, and some local/regional resources from which to advance to a certain degree, but since many of those places only have limited electricity supplies and zero-to-few internet/cloud resources, they'd be dependent on whatever learning materials were already there: often very old books (which aren't always that bad) and siblings' notebooks, etc.
However, for that group, just surviving might have been the mandated activity, since if Covid hit, their access to healthcare was more limited, family resources were more threatened, and farming and basic food production had to take priority.
I'm picturing one place I worked where the grant one of the profs got was to follow up on a site where 30 computers had been delivered to a newly built adobe school in a tropical rainforest zone.
The previous grant recipient had signed off on their part of the award with a beautiful picture of kids sitting at their desktops with the new machines all set up and ready to go.
The part the picture didn't show was that all the connecters were dangling on the ground because no-one had checked to see if the place had electricity--they didn't--or wifi coverage--nope to that, too.
Our team's job was to go back in and figure out what to do instead...they were still debating whether to pick up the machines and sell them back and use the funds for books and a chalkboard, or to try to get power lines out to the remote area where the school was.
My assignment ended about then, so I never did learn what they did.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on August 11, 2022, 09:21:40 AM
@ marshwiggle: You're saying that they're asking for a hermenutic-free presentation of history, sociology, and civics.
Theoretically and practically, that's impossible. What is omitted just reflects a different hermeneutic, not a purified one.
Subjects like mathematics don't really involve any sort of hermaneutics. Attempts to impose all kinds of idiological baggage onto those are unnecessary and generate understandable hostility.
However, even for subjects such as those mentioned above, it is entirely possible, (and traditionally was considered preferable), to discuss them in a hermaneutically
open-ended manner. My daughter said she had a great history prof in university, but who never revealed his own personal leanings on things. In theology, one can discuss the Eucharist, and present the different positions about whether the elements are symbolic, or whether they actually become the body and blood of Christ, without trying to push one or the other on students.
It's only recently that some educators have started to see "activism" as essential to what they do. Unfortunately, this directly undermines development of students' own critical thinking skills since on any issue they are primed to recognize the "right answer", rather than trying to see it from multiple perspectives.
All things (including math examples) involve hermeneutics.
If you're saying they don't, it's only because you haven't examined your own to know what they are and how to recognize them.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on August 11, 2022, 02:17:53 PM
All things (including math examples) involve hermeneutics.
If you're saying they don't, it's only because you haven't examined your own to know what they are and how to recognize them.
M.
Here's an interesting example (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/defunding-police-course-1.6548690):
Quote
STU course to explore 'defunding the police'
Sulaimon Giwa has strong opinions on modern day policing from years of lived and academic experience.
He doesn't however, have a specific answer for what it means to defund the police.
"It's a question I've been trying to grapple with," he said. "Are we actually using the correct language to define and have meaningful conversations around this issue of police brutality and this issue of the police budget?"
Giwa's life and academic experience have formed his opinions on policing, but he will not be imposing a particular perspective on students, he said. Rather, he'll be facilitating critical conversations.
"It's really difficult to come into this space in a neutral sense, because I visualize as a Black, gay man, and these are realities for me as well as you on a day-to-day basis," he said.
"But I think it's really, really important that I'm not coming into that space with my own values and beliefs and having students take those positions necessarily."
This is what used to be considered the
goal for academics, rather than an aberation.
(He admits he has a perspective, but he wants to avoid trying to impose it on students.)
Dear students,
What part of "in-class oral presentation" makes it sound like physically being in class and talking is somehow optional? Yes, you also have to turn in your slides. But that is not sufficient to count as, you know, actually presenting about your research project. Turning in your slides is only 5 points. The presentation is scored out of 50 points.
And that is why the presentation guidelines include: "All team members need to present about their individual [basket]", "You need to talk through the information on your slides. It is NOT acceptable to simple show the slides and assume your audience will read them.", etc.
How does showing up and talking sound optional?!?
Bang! Bang! Bang!
Just spent my morning dealing with the student who missed the first week's lab due to transportation issues. Said student claims she did not realize that lab was in person (?!) will not have transportation to campus for over a month. Clue flagging the academic advisors and Dean of students.
This is the 4th student I've dealt with this week who could not decipher their course schedule!
Quote from: mythbuster on August 26, 2022, 08:26:59 AM
Just spent my morning dealing with the student who missed the first week's lab due to transportation issues. Said student claims she did not realize that lab was in person (?!) will not have transportation to campus for over a month. Clue flagging the academic advisors and Dean of students.
This is the 4th student I've dealt with this week who could not decipher their course schedule!
I feel your pain. I had TWO students on the first day of class who could not read their schedules. One of them wasn't sure what days class met. Um, don't you guys sign up for classes knowing what days they meet?
Thinking in a matrix of dates, days, and hours requires getting past the hypothetical-deductive stage of development (c. 8-12 years old)...one might have to induce that passage with a review of how to hold two things in mind at the same time, while working to compare them.
This could be valuable overall, since the same skills are required in the analysis of lab results, among other things....when only linear thinking is taught, emphasized, reinforced, or encouraged, it's more of a struggle to do that.
M.
Quote from: mythbuster on August 26, 2022, 08:26:59 AM
Just spent my morning dealing with the student who missed the first week's lab due to transportation issues. Said student claims she did not realize that lab was in person (?!) will not have transportation to campus for over a month. Clue flagging the academic advisors and Dean of students.
This is the 4th student I've dealt with this week who could not decipher their course schedule!
Wow. The lack of a Zoom link or online materials didn't clue them in either? Makes you wonder if they attended any of their classes. Our registration site has added a course modality column that says in-person or online. The exact type of online isn't specified (synchronous, asynchronous, self-paced, etc.), but at least the students know if they need to physically be in a particular room.
Just spent 20 minutes explaining a course calendar to a student. Yes, if it's listed on that date, that means we will do it that day. The CMS has the exact same organization as the syllabus. If it says "Reading" that means you need to read it. If is says "Assignment" that means you have an assignment to complete.
Like others, I blame the pandemic, but still....
It's the last day of Summer classes and the student who "had no idea they had missed X of Y assignments" is BEGGING for any way to make up the points/do more assignments/earn extra credit, sent a picture they say was their wrecked car from weeks ago (ironically, not a day they missed class), and claims all emails from me went to their Spam file.
Sigh. I'll be seeing them again in Fall.
Student claims she can't take an evening exam because her ADHD meds wear off at 5pm.
My fantasy response: Then how do you study or get homework done?!?
The reality- I likely need to make the alternate exam for this student to prevent sharing. Sigh.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 07, 2022, 01:21:30 PM
Student claims she can't take an evening exam because her ADHD meds wear off at 5pm.
My fantasy response: Then how do you study or get homework done?!?
The reality- I likely need to make the alternate exam for this student to prevent sharing. Sigh.
Does the student have accommodations for no evening exams? Where I am they would absolutely not get a different exam unless they had an accommodation letter saying so.
Yes, I have an ADHD student with similar timing issues--not in school, but for private music lessons--and he still has a couple of hours after his med levels start to drop before he really can't function.
He's also transparently honest about exactly how he's feeling, so I know he doesn't take advantage of the situation.
I'd ask for more specifics. And the accommodations letter, of course.
M.
I have the accommodation letter. No evening exams isn't even an option for accommodations. I know from experience that they would just call this one as being at my discretion. In other words- I'm a meanie if I say no.
The thing is, the proctoring service closes at 8pm, so the student would have to schedule the earlier than the regular class start of 7:30 anyway.
It's not worth the fight. I will scramble some of the questions on her version just to be safe.
She has now scheduled the exam to overlap with her Anatomy Lab. So I predict great things for this one!
I feel like COVID teaching has ruined them. I've had multiple students who can't read a syllabus, as in, they don't understand what "Read: Chapter 2, pages 25-33" means. I've had a few who have said they don't know when things are due - not only is every assignment listed next to its due date in bold, all the due dates are in the LMS and it emails you the day before they are due. Another student said that she didn't know what an essay question was. Finally, one student asked me if all of the assigned readings were power points. It's clear to me that this isn't because they are unintelligent; they just literally have no academic skills. How am I supposed to teach you to write a research paper when you can't read a syllabus, use a calendar or write a 2-paragraph essay, and haven't read anything longer than can be included on a power point slide?
So far I have kept my poker face and walked them through what "Read" means, but I'm about to lose it.
I got an email from the mom of an Access/disabilities services student, asking for an alternate reading assignment for her son, since the assigned text is "far beyond his comprehension." The current assignment scans to an 8.5 grade reading level.
This is Week 3, and the son had already requested an alternate "easier" assignment for the initial diagnostic writing sample (a low-stakes, softball short paper). I told him "no" then, in no uncertain terms.
I do NOT deal with parents, as a matter of policy, period--FERPA waiver or not, Access student or not. NO. The waiver says I can talk to a parent, not that I have to.
I politely explained to the mother that advocating for self and working directly with instructors is an important part of a student's growth, and told her to have him contact me.
Nope, nope, NOPE. We are not starting this crap. (BTW, I have the student's Access contact person in the loop, and she completely backs my position, and wonders along with me how/why this guy is even in College Comp I. There's a long history of students with severe mental disabilities being enrolled at our open enrollment CC, having their parents max out their grant and loan eligibility, and then disappearing.)
Quote from: artalot on September 08, 2022, 09:38:11 AM
I feel like COVID teaching has ruined them. I've had multiple students who can't read a syllabus, as in, they don't understand what "Read: Chapter 2, pages 25-33" means. I've had a few who have said they don't know when things are due - not only is every assignment listed next to its due date in bold, all the due dates are in the LMS and it emails you the day before they are due. Another student said that she didn't know what an essay question was. Finally, one student asked me if all of the assigned readings were power points. It's clear to me that this isn't because they are unintelligent; they just literally have no academic skills. How am I supposed to teach you to write a research paper when you can't read a syllabus, use a calendar or write a 2-paragraph essay, and haven't read anything longer than can be included on a power point slide?
So far I have kept my poker face and walked them through what "Read" means, but I'm about to lose it.
Yipes! This kind of thing really tries my patience too. Wishing you inner peace.
My vent: does
any of the technology on this blasted campus actually work?!
I hope the IT guy isn't too sick and tired of getting calls for help from me already. It's only the 2nd week of class!
I got an email last weekend from a student who addressed me properly and said hu is in my "Basketweaving class." Hu was very sorry to have turned in the first assignments late and wanted to see if they could make up points for late work. However, I am on sabbatical this semester and am not teaching anything! Since I have an auto-reply message that mentions current students should contact my department chair, the student forwarded the email hu sent me with no other words to the department chair, who responded with serious concerns as to how this student does not know whose class they are taking in third week. I could not stop laughing about this because it seems so absurd to me. This is a masters student who already has a masters degree!
Quote from: darkstarrynight on September 08, 2022, 09:13:16 PM
I got an email last weekend from a student who addressed me properly and said hu is in my "Basketweaving class." Hu was very sorry to have turned in the first assignments late and wanted to see if they could make up points for late work. However, I am on sabbatical this semester and am not teaching anything! Since I have an auto-reply message that mentions current students should contact my department chair, the student forwarded the email hu sent me with no other words to the department chair, who responded with serious concerns as to how this student does not know whose class they are taking in third week. I could not stop laughing about this because it seems so absurd to me. This is a masters student who already has a masters degree!
Standards are coming down more precipitously than I had expected!
Three meetings with student services, HOURS wrangling with YouTube for closed captioning, HOURS adapting lectures to be compatable with the system for captioning my live lectures and....
...the student didn't show to the first class.
Then they emailed asking for the Zoom link on Thursday (class is Wednesday, in person).
And they complained that their accomodations weren't being respected.
Ugh.
My master's students are freaking out about having to read an entire book for class next week. It is short (125 pages) and makes a straightforward argument. It's a communication theory course -- reading a book is not an unreasonable amount, especially for MA students, right?
Right?
Right?
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Ugh.
My master's students are freaking out about having to read an entire book for class next week. It is short (125 pages) and makes a straightforward argument. It's a communication theory course -- reading a book is not an unreasonable amount, especially for MA students, right?
Right?
Right?
They just have no idea. The moment I started my MA program in history, we had to read three to five books a week in one of my classes. And few of them were less than two to three hundred pages. That was
one of my first-semester classes in grad school.
Quote from: apl68 on September 09, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Ugh.
My master's students are freaking out about having to read an entire book for class next week. It is short (125 pages) and makes a straightforward argument. It's a communication theory course -- reading a book is not an unreasonable amount, especially for MA students, right?
Right?
Right?
They just have no idea. The moment I started my MA program in history, we had to read three to five books a week in one of my classes. And few of them were less than two to three hundred pages. That was one of my first-semester classes in grad school.
I had a little less to read than that -- usually a book a week for each of my classes. They were densely theoretical, and they took concerted effort. What I've tried explaining to my students is that my goal is for them to leave my class with the conceptual tools they need to do MA-level research, and that involves more than memorizing lecture notes. They need to see how writers build arguments, and how arguments move through material.
The level of freaking out over one 125-page book has me concerned about what the rest of this semester looks like.
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 01:43:09 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 09, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Ugh.
My master's students are freaking out about having to read an entire book for class next week. It is short (125 pages) and makes a straightforward argument. It's a communication theory course -- reading a book is not an unreasonable amount, especially for MA students, right?
Right?
Right?
They just have no idea. The moment I started my MA program in history, we had to read three to five books a week in one of my classes. And few of them were less than two to three hundred pages. That was one of my first-semester classes in grad school.
I had a little less to read than that -- usually a book a week for each of my classes. They were densely theoretical, and they took concerted effort. What I've tried explaining to my students is that my goal is for them to leave my class with the conceptual tools they need to do MA-level research, and that involves more than memorizing lecture notes. They need to see how writers build arguments, and how arguments move through material.
The level of freaking out over one 125-page book has me concerned about what the rest of this semester looks like.
Maybe they need a little more direction in creating study/jigsaw groups?
Could you provide study guides - not summaries, but setting up key questions to help them focus. What are author's key arguments? How are these framed? How do these contrast with other arguments you have seen/heard?
Quote from: ciao_yall on September 09, 2022, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 01:43:09 PM
Quote from: apl68 on September 09, 2022, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: traductio on September 09, 2022, 12:13:40 PM
Ugh.
My master's students are freaking out about having to read an entire book for class next week. It is short (125 pages) and makes a straightforward argument. It's a communication theory course -- reading a book is not an unreasonable amount, especially for MA students, right?
Right?
Right?
They just have no idea. The moment I started my MA program in history, we had to read three to five books a week in one of my classes. And few of them were less than two to three hundred pages. That was one of my first-semester classes in grad school.
I had a little less to read than that -- usually a book a week for each of my classes. They were densely theoretical, and they took concerted effort. What I've tried explaining to my students is that my goal is for them to leave my class with the conceptual tools they need to do MA-level research, and that involves more than memorizing lecture notes. They need to see how writers build arguments, and how arguments move through material.
The level of freaking out over one 125-page book has me concerned about what the rest of this semester looks like.
Maybe they need a little more direction in creating study/jigsaw groups?
Could you provide study guides - not summaries, but setting up key questions to help them focus. What are author's key arguments? How are these framed? How do these contrast with other arguments you have seen/heard?
That was actually my exact approach, although I gave them a bit more substance than that, since this is our first reading. (Our semester started Wednesday.) I said, "Here are the two questions the author is asking," and gave them the questions. I said to watch how the author answers them -- both in substance and in form.
They couldn't hear me though, it seemed, as the they seemed stuck on the idea of reading an entire book.
Tell them about the places where first-year freshers are given 1000 pages to read in a week.
M.
Humanities Master's here. 3-8 books per week per course (4-5 the norm), with another list of recommended supplemental reading.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on September 09, 2022, 03:42:28 PM
Humanities Master's here. 3-8 books per week per course (4-5 the norm), with another list of recommended supplemental reading.
AR.
When I was doing my PhD (in communication arts), I took a few doctoral courses in comp lit, mostly because I was working with questions of translation. Holy crap, but they had reading. And the students' comprehensive exam reading lists -- wow.
Quote from: artalot on September 08, 2022, 09:38:11 AM
I feel like COVID teaching has ruined them. I've had multiple students who can't read a syllabus, as in, they don't understand what "Read: Chapter 2, pages 25-33" means. I've had a few who have said they don't know when things are due - not only is every assignment listed next to its due date in bold, all the due dates are in the LMS and it emails you the day before they are due. Another student said that she didn't know what an essay question was. Finally, one student asked me if all of the assigned readings were power points. It's clear to me that this isn't because they are unintelligent; they just literally have no academic skills. How am I supposed to teach you to write a research paper when you can't read a syllabus, use a calendar or write a 2-paragraph essay, and haven't read anything longer than can be included on a power point slide?
So far I have kept my poker face and walked them through what "Read" means, but I'm about to lose it.
I get so much of all that, especially the thing about not knowing when things are due (or what topics are covered on the quizzes--despite the quizzes being explicitly labelled, and it should be obvious from context anyway that it covers everything we've learned since the last quiz...). Ugh.
On reading: just for a counterpoint, I'm in a discipline where even graduate courses usually only assign about 40-60 pages of reading a week, max. One or more books would be insane. But from what I've seen, we're responsible for the material in a different way from many other fields (i.e. in minute detail). I had several classes as an undergrad, master's, and PhD student where we spent the whole semester going through a single book, one line at a time. One of these books was quite short (~120 pages), the others pretty long (~400-600 pages).
That said, I see nothing wrong with assigning a 125-page book, especially when it's not a big departure from disciplinary norms. That's just 18 pages a day, after all, and even with very dense material--which it probably isn't, being a short book!--that's manageable (if tiring). And besides, traductio, you've been doing this long enough that you totally know what's appropriate, and what your students are capable of! I'd trust your judgement any day.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 10, 2022, 08:42:10 AM
I get so much of all that, especially the thing about not knowing when things are due (or what topics are covered on the quizzes--despite the quizzes being explicitly labelled, and it should be obvious from context anyway that it covers everything we've learned since the last quiz...). Ugh.
In fact, here's one now:
QuoteI hope you are doing good. I just have question regarding the syllabus as what is the syllabus for the quizzes, midterms and finals, etc. from where we can study to do them.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 10, 2022, 05:42:24 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 10, 2022, 08:42:10 AM
I get so much of all that, especially the thing about not knowing when things are due (or what topics are covered on the quizzes--despite the quizzes being explicitly labelled, and it should be obvious from context anyway that it covers everything we've learned since the last quiz...). Ugh.
In fact, here's one now:
QuoteI hope you are doing good. I just have question regarding the syllabus as what is the syllabus for the quizzes, midterms and finals, etc. from where we can study to do them.
Yikes!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 10, 2022, 05:42:24 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 10, 2022, 08:42:10 AM
I get so much of all that, especially the thing about not knowing when things are due (or what topics are covered on the quizzes--despite the quizzes being explicitly labelled, and it should be obvious from context anyway that it covers everything we've learned since the last quiz...). Ugh.
In fact, here's one now:
QuoteI hope you are doing good. I just have question regarding the syllabus as what is the syllabus for the quizzes, midterms and finals, etc. from where we can study to do them.
Yikes indeed!
Might it be that this student's first language is not English? I agree that what some students don't know comes very unexpectedly.
Is this a face to face class? Or online? In either case, it sounds like a one-on-one conversation with this particular student might yield better clarity than more written explanations that might spiral into their own communication gaps.
In any case I would love to know if you were able to clarify for this student and what it took to achieve clarity.
According to many of my students, there are 18 C between -1 C and 19 C. We're in a country that uses Celsius, so it's not a lack of familiarity with the scale.
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 08:51:53 AM
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
They might be doing order-of-operations errors with the calculator, and then believing whatever it tells them rather than thinking.
Quote from: poiuy on September 10, 2022, 11:47:44 PM
Might it be that this student's first language is not English? I agree that what some students don't know comes very unexpectedly.
Is this a face to face class? Or online? In either case, it sounds like a one-on-one conversation with this particular student might yield better clarity than more written explanations that might spiral into their own communication gaps.
In any case I would love to know if you were able to clarify for this student and what it took to achieve clarity.
Oh, definitely--and it may not even be their second or third. Something like 93%+ of my students are international (compared to ~25-30% for my colleagues), and it's not just because these are the online and asynchronous sections we're offering.
It's the weekend, however, so I'm not dealing with it until Monday. I expect the fix to be simple, though: they just want to know what's on the quizzes. The topics are clearly labelled, and they can access the quiz at any time (it's not timed) to see for themselves.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on September 11, 2022, 10:37:16 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 08:51:53 AM
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
They might be doing order-of-operations errors with the calculator, and then believing whatever it tells them rather than thinking.
It appears what actually occurred is that they divided by the number I used in the example in class, which was a smaller array, rather than dividing by the actual number of digits in the array for the homework. As they are grad students, I remain concerned. Admittedly we get a lot of math phobic grad students, but usually, they can take an average with the assistance of a calculator. This does not bode well.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on September 11, 2022, 10:37:16 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 08:51:53 AM
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
They might be doing order-of-operations errors with the calculator, and then believing whatever it tells them rather than thinking.
It appears what actually occurred is that they divided by the number I used in the example in class, which was a smaller array, rather than dividing by the actual number of digits in the array for the homework. As they are grad students, I remain concerned. Admittedly we get a lot of math phobic grad students, but usually, they can take an average with the assistance of a calculator. This does not bode well.
Wow. Just wow.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on September 11, 2022, 12:20:51 PM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on September 11, 2022, 10:37:16 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 08:51:53 AM
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
They might be doing order-of-operations errors with the calculator, and then believing whatever it tells them rather than thinking.
It appears what actually occurred is that they divided by the number I used in the example in class, which was a smaller array, rather than dividing by the actual number of digits in the array for the homework. As they are grad students, I remain concerned. Admittedly we get a lot of math phobic grad students, but usually, they can take an average with the assistance of a calculator. This does not bode well.
Wow. Just wow.
I teach in communication, so it's possible to get by without math. But the level of math-phobia rivals the level of reading-phobia (good lord, what am I doing here...). There's a classic text called "The Mathematics of Communication," in which Warren Weaver paraphrases and popularizes a much more complex theory of communication laid out by Claude Shannon. If you read Shannon's book, you need to understand logarithms, but I don't assign that book. I assign Weaver's text,
which does not include any actual math. I have had students simply shut down when they see the title -- "I don't do math," they tell me with what sounds like a hint of pride.
It's frustrating, and more than that, it's a reflection of a certain hostility to exploration for exploration's own sake.
I can certainly understand math phobia, and indeed I chose the undergraduate college that I did, above another similar college, because the one I chose had no math requirement. In my case, it was the result of years of terrible math teaching and shaming by math teachers. i clearly remember my third-grade teacher berating me for not understanding division. "You're just not trying! I know you're not as stupid as you're pretending!" she would say, the first in a long line of teachers who though they could shame me into magically understanding. So ... when I'm rebuked for not wanting to explore and play and feel the wonders of math, it's sort of the same feeling as a "The beatings will continue until morale improves" kind of thing.
I love numbers and math. I start my day with nerdle because I like to play around with numbers. But I realize that my students are not me, and it is likely that some of them have some math anxiety/phobia. We require the GRE (though possibly not in the future), but it's not unusual that we have admitted students who have earned GRE scores in the <5th% for quantitative.
But my students are entering a discipline where some ability to engage with numbers/statistics is necessary. And I teach the courses which most require this engagement. I do try to help students engage their logic--I did several examples of: here is an array of numbers, which of these scores could be the mean? OK, not that one b/c it's larger than the largest score and mean is a measure of central tendency. OK, now let's calculate and find out.
I'm always sad to hear stories like Hegemony's where students are shamed and scared off from math. My goal is that students are going to get reasonably comfortable, so they are not going to just skip the results section of any article. And, I'm often starting from the beginning with some students.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 08:51:53 AM
According to my students, the mean of a series of numbers in which the highest value is 25 is equal to values greater than 25. The logic is not strong with this group.
Damn.
Quote from: Hegemony on September 11, 2022, 01:21:05 PM
I can certainly understand math phobia, and indeed I chose the undergraduate college that I did, above another similar college, because the one I chose had no math requirement. In my case, it was the result of years of terrible math teaching and shaming by math teachers. i clearly remember my third-grade teacher berating me for not understanding division. "You're just not trying! I know you're not as stupid as you're pretending!" she would say, the first in a long line of teachers who though they could shame me into magically understanding. So ... when I'm rebuked for not wanting to explore and play and feel the wonders of math, it's sort of the same feeling as a "The beatings will continue until morale improves" kind of thing.
My 4th grade math teacher told me my writing looked like cockroach trailings amongst other derogatory comments. I didn't enjoy another math class until I took statistics many years later in college. I was genuinely surprised when I took that class that I was not, in fact, terrible at math. I ended up in the art field.
I make it a point to include the letter grade in the total column in blackboard as I have had students who were confused by just having the average number there (thinking they had a "C" when they had something like a 68 for example).
Today, I heard from a student who claimed that the potential answers on her multiple-choice quiz disappeared after a few words each.
So what was the problem? She didn't maximize the quiz popup window, or scroll to the right.
*headdesk*
How do you even Internet?
I was just informed by Student Accessibility that I need to have a Zoom session running in my face-to-face lecture for the student who will be sitting in the class.
Who will provide the laptop? Apparently I will.
This is not a straight lecture course. I have no idea how this is supposed to work.
How would it be your responsibility to provide a computer?
Well, when it doesn't happen and someone gets called on the carpet for not meeting ADA requirements, it's gonna be me. Ergo, my responsibility.
I now have to shift that responsibility to Student Services. Before Wednesday.
Quote from: FishProf on September 12, 2022, 08:42:07 AM
I was just informed by Student Accessibility that I need to have a Zoom session running in my face-to-face lecture for the student who will be sitting in the class.
Who will provide the laptop? Apparently I will.
This is not a straight lecture course. I have no idea how this is supposed to work.
That one seems strange. I am required to stream my class sessions through not-Zoom for a student who is attending all courses virtually, including my lab course. But, what is the accessibility reason for a Zoom session if the student is actually attending in-person? A remote interpreter? Student needs to be able to ask questions in the chat vs speaking them orally?
I would be surprised (though I probably shouldn't be anymore) if you as the instructor need to provide a laptop. I'd kick that one back to the student accessibility office, as it's their job to ensure appropriate access. I can't imagine the accommodation letter says: instructor must provide the student with a laptop.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 11, 2022, 05:26:58 PM
I love numbers and math. I start my day with nerdle because I like to play around with numbers. But I realize that my students are not me, and it is likely that some of them have some math anxiety/phobia. We require the GRE (though possibly not in the future), but it's not unusual that we have admitted students who have earned GRE scores in the <5th% for quantitative.
But my students are entering a discipline where some ability to engage with numbers/statistics is necessary. And I teach the courses which most require this engagement. I do try to help students engage their logic--I did several examples of: here is an array of numbers, which of these scores could be the mean? OK, not that one b/c it's larger than the largest score and mean is a measure of central tendency. OK, now let's calculate and find out.
I'm always sad to hear stories like Hegemony's where students are shamed and scared off from math. My goal is that students are going to get reasonably comfortable, so they are not going to just skip the results section of any article. And, I'm often starting from the beginning with some students.
This is a wonderful game! Thanks for mentioning it. :D
Quote from: FishProf on September 12, 2022, 08:42:07 AM
I was just informed by Student Accessibility that I need to have a Zoom session running in my face-to-face lecture for the student who will be sitting in the class.
Who will provide the laptop? Apparently I will.
This is not a straight lecture course. I have no idea how this is supposed to work.
Yikes. Our Accessibility folks make it clear that the student is responsible for getting their own laptop, recording device, etc.
Why on earth do you need to have Zoom open for a student who is actually in the room? Please tell me it's not so that they can type questions directly to you rather than speak. And if that's the reason, there are other ways to allow it like poll everywhere that would allow everyone to participate that way.
It's so someone somewhere else can listen in and transcribe for the student who has some hearing impairment.
I am meeting with the Accessibility Director this afternoon. She is usually reasonable and helpful.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 06:41:04 AM
It's so someone somewhere else can listen in and transcribe for the student who has some hearing impairment.
I am meeting with the Accessibility Director this afternoon. She is usually reasonable and helpful.
Oh, OK you are getting some type of remote CART service. That does make sense why you'd need to Zoom. Before we started Zooming everything, that type of service was in-person. But having a remote option does allow the CART provider to be someone who is not on campus, which does help with staffing. It still should not require you to provide equipment (hopefully). I hope your meeting goes well and you AD continues to be reasonable.
The best solution is no mask.
Administration has lost their mind on that suggestion.
Anyone got popcorn?
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 12:29:33 PM
The best solution is no mask.
Administration has lost their mind on that suggestion.
Anyone got popcorn?
I wear a mask with a clear center so students can read my lips. Would that be acceptable?
Sorry, double post for my own bang your head moment with a similar issue.
Student is now requesting my "lecture notes" prior to class as an accommodation.
I'm going to consult with my chair and the accessibility office. But even if I was willing to provide them, many of my notes are mostly a class plan: do mini lecture on X (in which I've already uploaded the powerpoint slides); do activity 1. Review activity, do activity 2. remember to discuss Z.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 13, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 12:29:33 PM
The best solution is no mask.
Administration has lost their mind on that suggestion.
Anyone got popcorn?
I wear a mask with a clear center so students can read my lips. Would that be acceptable?
According to the Accessibility folks, the masks did not help this student (fogging, transparent =/= clear etc). I asked my Union leaders who, JUST YESTERDAY, said faculty CANNOT be compelled to wear a mask, and they suggested I go to the President to request he lift the mask mandate campus-wide. SRSLY?
I'm a bit surprised there isn't an ADA override of the policy being suggested.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 06:41:04 AM
It's so someone somewhere else can listen in and transcribe for the student who has some hearing impairment.
I am meeting with the Accessibility Director this afternoon. She is usually reasonable and helpful.
On my campus, the solution to this problem would be to pay one of the other students in the class a small stipend to copy their class notes for the student each day. I understand that is not the same as a word-for-word transcription of everything you say in class, but it feels like the proposed solution is just using technology to make the situation far more complicated than it needs to be.
Quote from: FishProf on September 13, 2022, 06:41:04 AM
It's so someone somewhere else can listen in and transcribe for the student who has some hearing impairment.
I am meeting with the Accessibility Director this afternoon. She is usually reasonable and helpful.
It's odd that the CART person is able to be remote, but that seems reasonable. Your student won't be on Zoom (I assume). The transcription person will be typing in real time and your student will get a transcript from a software program. You could just have the audio available on Zoom and only to the transcription person. No video needed.
It's really not noticeable since it just looks like the student is taking notes on a laptop.
Isn't there closed captioning on your software?
They could just take notes from that, presumably, at least, unless they need the full transcript to study from, I guess.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on September 13, 2022, 06:53:46 PM
Isn't there closed captioning on your software?
So, yes. When I am actually using a computer to give a presentation. Which is only ~ 1/2 the time.
Today, for example, is a chalk talk. NO tech needed.
Except now, I have to have tech. So someone can listen (but not watch) and try to transcribe what I am saying.
We'll see how that goes.
In 2020 I taught hy-flex classes with Google Meet. It was awful for teaching, but it did have very good automatic captions and in my classroom it picked up a lot of the words from students who were attending in person and not particularly close to the microphone. I wonder if you could log in to a meeting, point the camera at a wall, and let the auto-captions generate behind you?
AR
Some automatic captions are reasonable and some are awful (one set of auto-captions for a lecture, for some reason, decided that there were multiple times I was saying vulgar words for people's anatomy, which was NOT a part of my lecture on research methods).
At my Uni, the automatic captions are not ADA compliant if the student has an accommodation for CART, closed captioning, or other types of transcripts. Rules could be different elsewhere. We are told we can use them in a pinch, but not as a consistent option.
I changed the microphone I was using and the automatic captions improved too!
I used the Zoom setup and the captioner did a great job, apparently, as my student is very pleased.
Its not ideal, but I didn't have to change the way I teach, so Win-Win.
Quote from: FishProf on September 14, 2022, 12:58:11 PM
I used the Zoom setup and the captioner did a great job, apparently, as my student is very pleased.
Its not ideal, but I didn't have to change the way I teach, so Win-Win.
This is the best possible outcome. You could teach the class in the manner is most effective for teaching the class and the student got the supports they needed to access the class. win-win indeed!
Bien fait.
M.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on September 14, 2022, 01:15:49 PM
Quote from: FishProf on September 14, 2022, 12:58:11 PM
I used the Zoom setup and the captioner did a great job, apparently, as my student is very pleased.
Its not ideal, but I didn't have to change the way I teach, so Win-Win.
This is the best possible outcome. You could teach the class in the manner is most effective for teaching the class and the student got the supports they needed to access the class. win-win indeed!
Excellent! Let the accommodations folks know that this worked very well for both you and the student. That way they will do it the same way the next time or in other classes.
Arghhh!
The new equipment we ordered for the teaching labs, which was supposed to arrive over a month ago, is now back-ordered. Were we told? Nope!
Do I have to redo the lab curriculum? Yes!
We've just finished week 4 of the semester and I have a student who has not attended any classes at all. Has Covid become the all purpose "get out of jail free" card??
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 22, 2022, 06:38:21 PM
We've just finished week 4 of the semester and I have a student who has not attended any classes at all. Has Covid become the all purpose "get out of jail free" card??
For 4 weeks???!!! Unless this person has some kind of incredibly serious immunocompromising condition, it's hard to see how that could work.
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 23, 2022, 05:20:09 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 22, 2022, 06:38:21 PM
We've just finished week 4 of the semester and I have a student who has not attended any classes at all. Has Covid become the all purpose "get out of jail free" card??
For 4 weeks???!!! Unless this person has some kind of incredibly serious immunocompromising condition, it's hard to see how that could work.
Reminds me of a student in one of my once-a-week four-hour class a few years ago. Stu went to the wrong classroom the first week, and then after receiving the early warning alert, emailed me after the fourth week about not being able to find the classroom which was in a very obvious building and in an equally obvious location. Stu was administratively dropped after four or five weeks.
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 22, 2022, 06:38:21 PM
We've just finished week 4 of the semester and I have a student who has not attended any classes at all. Has Covid become the all purpose "get out of jail free" card??
This happens frequently enough at my university that we have a special final grade designation for "fail - never attended". We don't do administrative drops here (although I wish we could).
The freshpeeps are using a computer program to do an assignment that I had just gone over in detail, including walking them through all the steps they needed to do to complete the task. I also gave them a handout with the steps on it and encouraged them to take additional notes.
Stu: What do I do now?
Me: What do you think you should do now?
Stu: [next step]
Me: Right
Stu: But how do I do that?
Me: What does it say on the handout?
Stu: To do [next step]
Me: Okay
Stu: But how do I get there?
Me: What do you think you should do? What options do you have on the screen? [Hoping Stu will notice the big green "OK" button that finishes that task, the same button in the same place he had to click more than once to get where he was at the moment.]
Stu: I don't know! [Starting to sound angry]
Me: How about you click the OK button, like it says to do in the handout and like I demonstrated not half an hour ago.
Stu: Fine [still sounding angry]
Digital natives, my a**. Could I have just said to click the OK button? Perhaps so, but when will they learn for themselves? Ugh. Isn't clicking an OK button to finish something universally understood?
Quote from: arcturus on September 23, 2022, 06:04:20 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on September 22, 2022, 06:38:21 PM
We've just finished week 4 of the semester and I have a student who has not attended any classes at all. Has Covid become the all purpose "get out of jail free" card??
This happens frequently enough at my university that we have a special final grade designation for "fail - never attended". We don't do administrative drops here (although I wish we could).
We have that too, although I've never used it and am not sure what it means. I'm guessing a student can claim they didn't know they were registered and could get it dropped form their record.
I got a pair of labs for a class I've never taught dropped in my lap 4d before the semester start.
There is a software package used in the class - it is excellent, but I've never used it.
Students are given info on how to purchase, install and test.
Week 1 and 2, we don;t use it b/c I have other assignments to give and I am not yet up to speed.
Week 3 (now) we are using it in lab.
35 students. 20 have purchased the software.
Of the 20, 15 show up to lab, purchase and install and get up and running (30 minutes late or so).
1 student has a 2012 Macbook and is angry that the software won't work. (Specs are in the syllabus)
2 Students bought the software outside of the LMS and without the school email, so they can't link it. Had to buy again and then argue with the company.
1 hadn't updated her computer in 2 years, so the software wouldn't run.
1 hadn't restarted her computer. Ever. So the software wouldn't run until she restarted and ran the automatic updates.
And ~ 15 complained with "why are we expected to know how to do this stuff". After 2 years of remote learning, and growing up with computers, SRSLY?
Digital natives my ass.
Quote from: FishProf on September 23, 2022, 06:14:21 AM
1 hadn't restarted her computer. Ever. So the software wouldn't run until she restarted and ran the automatic updates.
That truly boggles the mind.
Quote
Digital natives my ass.
I want that on a T-shirt to wear in computer labs.
Re: Digital natives [said with a tone of sarcasm], I've had students stare blankly at the screen and say they can't find the information that's there — because 1) they hadn't scrolled down, or 2) they hadn't clicked on embedded links.
Re: Excuses to skip classes, I just had to intervene with a student who was trying to use her accommodations letter to miss classes because she had cramps. That was not one of the accommodations.
The start of the term means I get lots of emails. Many of which can be answered by "read the syllabus".
Got this gem today (emphasis added):
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist]! I hope you're doing well! I was going over my course materials and it shows that I don't need a [thing the syllabus says you need]. I just wanted to confirm if we need a [thing the syllabus says you need]?
Maybe "read and understand the syllabus" would be better.
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 23, 2022, 09:22:45 AM
The start of the term means I get lots of emails. Many of which can be answered by "read the syllabus".
Got this gem today (emphasis added):
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist]! I hope you're doing well! I was going over my course materials and it shows that I don't need a [thing the syllabus says you need]. I just wanted to confirm if we need a [thing the syllabus says you need]?
Maybe "read and understand the syllabus" would be better.
Is it possible that 'course materials' means something like 'automated list provided by the campus bookstore when I put in my course code'? If so, this email might be a warning sign that the bookstore screwed up somewhere.
Quote from: ergative on September 23, 2022, 10:49:46 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on September 23, 2022, 09:22:45 AM
The start of the term means I get lots of emails. Many of which can be answered by "read the syllabus".
Got this gem today (emphasis added):
QuoteHi Dr. [Geneticist]! I hope you're doing well! I was going over my course materials and it shows that I don't need a [thing the syllabus says you need]. I just wanted to confirm if we need a [thing the syllabus says you need]?
Maybe "read and understand the syllabus" would be better.
Is it possible that 'course materials' means something like 'automated list provided by the campus bookstore when I put in my course code'? If so, this email might be a warning sign that the bookstore screwed up somewhere.
Turns out ergative called it! Damn.
Time to add "call the bookstore, get this fixed, send apologetic clarifying announcement to all students" to my to-do list.
My university's disabilities office is introducing a "streamlined process" (i.e. shifting more of the burden to faculty) for dealing with student absences due to a disability. Faculty are asked to consider the following questions in determining whether disability-related excused absences can be reasonably granted in your course:
Is attendance an essential part of the class? No. Faculty don't do much of anything during class, so there's no reason for anyone to bother to attend.
Do student contributions and interactions between the instructor-student and student-student constitute a significant component of the learning process? We have perfected the process of learning by osmosis so that students and faculty can be thousands of miles away from each other and have no interactions with each other whatsoever.
Quote from: Anon1787 on September 23, 2022, 05:11:45 PM
My university's disabilities office is introducing a "streamlined process" (i.e. shifting more of the burden to faculty) for dealing with student absences due to a disability. Faculty are asked to consider the following questions in determining whether disability-related excused absences can be reasonably granted in your course:
Is attendance an essential part of the class? No. Faculty don't do much of anything during class, so there's no reason for anyone to bother to attend.
Do student contributions and interactions between the instructor-student and student-student constitute a significant component of the learning process? We have perfected the process of learning by osmosis so that students and faculty can be thousands of miles away from each other and have no interactions with each other whatsoever.
Yes, it's interesting how many questions I field can be answered with, "Hey, f*ck you too." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr . . .
I suspect that students 20 years ago were actually much more 'digital natives than they are today. More complicated, less user friendly tech then, more need to know stuff, less mind-sapping distractive technologies/ gizmos, and much less (even more pandemic accelerated, too) coddling and helicoptering in school.
I had to teach student this week what the Tab button does in Word. He did at least know how to cut and paste.
My students don't know how to use it either.
I've had to teach this every semester.
Our campus is large and students love to ride their bicycles/scooters/skateboards. They are supposed to yield to pedestrians (hah!) and not bring their wheels inside. And the electric-scooters are technically banned on campus since they have top speeds above a certain threshold.
Today, I had to stop two students who were riding their electric-scooters down the hallway inside the building. Why did they think this was OK/safe/a good idea?
QuoteGood afternoon sir,
This is regarding our quiz one. After reading the instructions I thought like we could do multiple attempts end the highest grade will be counted. but right after my first submission I don't know why it's not allowing me to re-attempt the quiz.
I hope you'll understand my situation an suggest me what can I do.
The instructions explicitly state that students can open/close the quiz as many times as they like, and freely navigate between questions,
but can only submit one attempt.
Feeling everyone's pain.
I have a student who asked me 'Where do I start?' Um, did you read the file titled 'Module Instructions?' It tells you exactly what to do. There is even a video that I have apparently wasted my time creating considering that, so far, only one student has watched it. This video tells them what to do, in detail, for the lab. SMDH.
I am teaching a digital art class with participation assignments due each week. In addition to demonstrating in-class I also have follow-up videos in each week's module folder. Each folder has the due date in the title, and the assignment heading in blackboard also includes the due date. Each assignment has a very specific list of criteria, including the format, of what is to be submitted. When students go to submit the assignment there is a checklist all of these things.
In the past few weeks I have had:
Multiple missing files
Files submitted in the completely wrong format
Files submitted that have nothing to do with the assignment (this one is my favorite)
Files that are only half completed or are completely incorrect
About half of the class gets it right every time, I have no idea what the other half is doing sometimes. At this point the only thing that I am not doing is submitting the work for them...
Update on the student who doesn't know where to start...
Stu told me that stu is using an ipad that stu KNOWS (we already had this discussion) doesn't show all of the materials in the course. Stu has used another laptop in the past, but insists on using this damned ipad that isn't fully compatible.
Why??????????????????????????????????????????
I once had a student who tried to take the course on his cell phone. Needless to say, he was not successful and ended up dropping.
Quote from: cathwen on October 02, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
I once had a student who tried to take the course on his cell phone. Needless to say, he was not successful and ended up dropping.
Same here. Her weekly papers were screenshots of notes written on her phone. Once I pointed her to the computer lab and laid out clearer rules her work product and understanding of the class increased tremendously.
Not teaching a class this term, but I'd be head-banging the desk if this had happened to me....
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2022/09/28/publisher-blocks-access-ebooks-students-faculty-scramble
Has anyone else been affected?
M.
Quote from: mythbuster on September 24, 2022, 08:10:14 AM
I had to teach student this week what the Tab button does in Word. He did at least know how to cut and paste.
I wonder if this is because so many k-12 classrooms seem to use Google docs? My granddaughter was also flummoxed by Word.
Dammit Google Drive! If you are going to change the streaming function to "improve security", could you please just
1) TELL US you are doing it, and
2) DO it all at once, so I can fix it, once.
Quote from: cathwen on October 02, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
I once had a student who tried to take the course on his cell phone. Needless to say, he was not successful and ended up dropping.
I've had students using cell phones for their online composition courses, despite the first page explicitly informing them that they needed to use a computer for this course. Needless to say, they either learned fast that using a phone to write MLA or APA style assignments was not a good idea or ended up dropping the course after complaining about the "mean" professor.
Quote from: cathwen on October 02, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
I once had a student who tried to take the course on his cell phone. Needless to say, he was not successful and ended up dropping.
I had several of those during the pandemic. The tech support folks here said "well, they shouldn't", but you could only borrow a chrome book if you 1) could drive to campus and 2) had financial need and 3) could make a scheduled pickup time.
Way to exclude many students who don't have a car, are suddenly the sole income for their household, or live too far away. The IT folks finally relented and would mail students the chrome book if they lived outside of the city transit range.
Now that we're back to in person classes, I have less sympathy since there are many ways to borrow computers or use computers on campus.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 03, 2022, 05:47:29 AM
Quote from: cathwen on October 02, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
I once had a student who tried to take the course on his cell phone. Needless to say, he was not successful and ended up dropping.
I've had students using cell phones for their online composition courses, despite the first page explicitly informing them that they needed to use a computer for this course. Needless to say, they either learned fast that using a phone to write MLA or APA style assignments was not a good idea or ended up dropping the course after complaining about the "mean" professor.
I've heard that at for-profit and other schools with lots of first-generation students this is not uncommon. Anymore if the only tech one can afford to have is a phone, that's what one will have. And people accustomed to doing everything by phone, and not very well-versed on the needs and realities of higher education, just won't understand why the phone can't be enough until they've tried it.
We do not have class today because students are doing an outside group activity instead. This is stated on this week's section of the CMS and highlighted in bright yellow. They also signed up for their outside activity slots in their groups last week, and I reminded them this was in place of class. Yet two students have emailed me today to say they are "confused about whether there is class today". I'm honestly not sure how much clearer it could be.
So, in Google docs, how do you indent, or right justify if not with the tab button? I've never used Google docs, so I would likely also be flummoxed.
Google Docs is a nightmare, format-wise.
I refuse to use it or accept anything in it.
I realize collaborative writers might find it more helpful, but it makes me cross-eyed just to look at it.
M.
I think this is the first time I've seen a faculty member get sacked because a few students complained "It's toooo haaaaaarrrrdddd!" Can't help but think there's more to the story than what was printed in The Grey Lady.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html
A student who working in my research lab is also working as the Supplemental Instructor for Intro to physics. He was asking me today how to deal with the fact that no one seems to remember any of the terms since the last class period! He's truly stumped as to how to deal with this in a nice way. His statement was "I can't teach them if they don't understand the terms." So true.
I will take this as hope that at least a few of them get it. I knew he was good fit for my research lab!
Quote from: mythbuster on October 03, 2022, 08:28:58 AM
So, in Google docs, how do you indent, or right justify if not with the tab button? I've never used Google docs, so I would likely also be flummoxed.
You tab the same way you do in Word. But some funky stuff happens when students have to download their Google documents into Word format before putting them into D2L (don't know about other CMS's), so there might be a rub there.
The high schools around here give their students Chromebooks, so they are all using Google docs. Forewarned is forearmed and all that . . .
What do you say to a student who tells you 'then I got really sick...that's why I wasn't here for last week's...' and you saw them walking around campus hanging out with friends just outside the building as you went to lunch right after the class they didn't attend? I think of saying 'You know that staircase in the northern end of the building, the one that's all windows? How you can see people entering or leaving the building or congregating with friends just outside? And how your new hair color is so distinctive?'
See, when a student is gets sick, it sounds real when they tell you. Even if they're a crappy student. When it's a lie, it sounds too emphatic, or something. You can just tell.
I was doing some in-class problems yesterday to help students get ready for an upcoming quiz and lab assignment. I found out some of them are still confused about material from chapter 2 (we are in 4) and, even worse, think that it's just impossibly hhaaaaarrrrrrrdddd. As in, "how are we supposed to learn all this?" How about the same way I did back in high school? The way I've been telling you since we covered that in week 3.
Test 1, which might be the easiest of the term, was bad. I'm afraid of how bad exam 2 will be.
We changed the prerequisites for our [Baskets 101, 102, 103] courses so that students can start them sooner. Students can now take [Basic Basket Materials A] concurrently instead of as a prerequisite to [Baskets 101]. But, no one who is teaching [Baskets 101] made any changes to their course. What used to be a "quick review of [Basic Basket Materials A]" is now a speed lecture of content & concepts that the students HAVE NOT LEARNED YET.
It's bad. The students are freaked out. And the kicker is that one of the [Baskets 101] instructors was on the committee that proposed and approved this change.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 04, 2022, 10:38:10 AM
We changed the prerequisites for our [Baskets 101, 102, 103] courses so that students can start them sooner. Students can now take [Basic Basket Materials A] concurrently instead of as a prerequisite to [Baskets 101]. But, no one who is teaching [Baskets 101] made any changes to their course. What used to be a "quick review of [Basic Basket Materials A]" is now a speed lecture of content & concepts that the students HAVE NOT LEARNED YET.
It's bad. The students are freaked out. And the kicker is that one of the [Baskets 101] instructors was on the committee that proposed and approved this change.
Facepalm!
We are at the 1/4 semester mark, and 10 of 24 students in my Online course have not yet done ANYTHING.
Which, sadly, is about par for the course lately.
Oh lord. I think my 3rd year Master's student has gone off to cry in a corner. She was supposed to present a research paper today in lab meeting. She posted it up to the lab LMS so I looked at it this morning. It was very familiar. A quick search- yup, she presented the same paper almost exactly a year ago in lab meeting. I called in to my office before lab (so in private) an informed her that she should present a new and different paper next week instead. Her immediate response was to complain about the hours of work that went into this presentation. Sigh.
So either she thought I wouldn't notice, or she legit does not remember giving a hour presentation of this paper. Both are bad. And it's not a very good paper. Either way she's not looking so great right now.
Now I'm off to dig up some appropriate options for her for next week.
How did this woman get to the third year of a Master's program (BTW, how long is the Master's supposed to take?)
I'm looped in to a weird email discussion. The TA claims that the student who needed to run to their room to get long pants never came back. The student is claiming that they did go back, but it's not clear that they went back to that lab section. And the student has also asked if they can make up the lab later (?).
Pretty sure that the student never returned to lab and is hoping we somehow won't notice that they weren't there and didn't turn in their assignment.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 06, 2022, 02:50:03 PM
I'm looped in to a weird email discussion. The TA claims that the student who needed to run to their room to get long pants never came back. The student is claiming that they did go back, but it's not clear that they went back to that lab section. And the student has also asked if they can make up the lab later (?).
Pretty sure that the student never returned to lab and is hoping we somehow won't notice that they weren't there and didn't turn in their assignment.
Similarly-- Students are doing observations at the campus day care center for my developmental psych course this week. Most have been excited about it and behaving well according to the TAs who are supervising. But I got a report from a TA today one showed up 20 min. late (for a half hour observation slot) and left again 3 minutes later. I just dare her to turn in a fabricated "observation". It is not going to end with a 0 on the assignment, we are going to have, shall we say, a teachable moment about research misconduct.
Mystery solved. The student returned wearing pants a few minutes late and completed the lab. The TA thought that an appropriate consequence was to give them a 0 on the assignment and wanted the student to repeat the entire lab.
No, just no.
It's going to be a long Fall.
If this student doesn't quit emailing me....She emailed me to say that she didn't know what she is supposed to be reading for this week and she didn't know what the name next to the chapter numbers on the syllabus schedule referred to. I emailed her back to tell her that it was the name of the author of one of the books she was supposed to have bought, the book we're starting this week. She emails me back to say that she doesn't see that name on any of the books she bought and asks for the title of the book. I email her back to tell her that the titles of all of the books are on the first page of the syllabus. Sigh.
Syllabus?
Sometimes I wonder if students think that labs are optional. I had almost half of one section miss lab recently. Only one said anything about it, asking what we did. At least they've stopped asking if they can "just watch the video" to make up a lab.
I have always had the occasional "I missed the lab, how can I make it up?" questions before (short answers - come to another section or you can't).
But it is now an avalanche of such queries. And they act like asking absolves them of doing anything at all. The prelab, the virtual dissection parts, the pre-quizzes, practice quizzes, and the actual weekly practical are ALL ONLINE. You can't make up the f2f parts, nor the benefit of doing everything in the lab, with classmates and a professor to answer questions, but some is waaaaaaaaaaay better than nothing at all.
Covid consequence?
Quote from: FishProf on October 11, 2022, 02:34:20 PM
I have always had the occasional "I missed the lab, how can I make it up?" questions before (short answers - come to another section or you can't).
But it is now an avalanche of such queries. And they act like asking absolves them of doing anything at all. The prelab, the virtual dissection parts, the pre-quizzes, practice quizzes, and the actual weekly practical are ALL ONLINE. You can't make up the f2f parts, nor the benefit of doing everything in the lab, with classmates and a professor to answer questions, but some is waaaaaaaaaaay better than nothing at all.
Covid consequence?
I do the "go to another lab" or if they really can't (e.g. isolating due to COVID) I create an online version.
About 1/2 the students finish the online version & do very well. A bit less than half seem to give up and turn in a not finished assignment (I warned them it would take a few hours & I accept late work with a penalty). And there are a handful who don't even open the assignment.
Not sure if this is a pandemic thing or not since I only started the online assignment as a makeup after COVID started.
I have a student who really needs to drop and get out of my hair. Stu has missed half the labs, but DID take the midterm exam. Stu has also failed every test. But stu is TRYING!!!
Ugh.
Dear student,
When you have a question you want answered via email, you need to hit the sweet spot of asking the question AND providing enough information for me to answer it.
Too little info and I have to play detective.
Too much, and it reads like a legal brief.
I won't deal with either.
Fishprof
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2022, 04:29:29 PM
I have a student who really needs to drop and get out of my hair. Stu has missed half the labs, but DID take the midterm exam. Stu has also failed every test. But stu is TRYING!!!
Ugh.
I have the opposite- students that want to ADD the class 1/3 of the into Fall. You are too far behind. You will not be able to "work hard to catch up". We told you that the class was full, has been full, and not everyone on the waitlist will get in. Stop emailing me!
I have one this year who does not get one single thing we are talking about but "needs to do well in this class". She's this bizarre combination of tentative and entitled so she will apologize nine times while asking me to do something ridiculous like teach her how to use her calculator to multiply fractions or set up twice a week individual meetings to reteach the content to her (I am recording lectures and she has access to them). I frequently want to interrupt her and finish her sentence so I can get to the part where I refuse.
Today she called me over during our midterm to ask when I would be done grading it.
Luckily the vast majority of the rest of the students are lovely.
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
Replacing the lowest/missing exam score with the score from the final (assuming it's higher!) is one way.
Reword the policy to say that the highest X of Y scores will count.
Or change the policy to allow a retake for a documented illness or emergency only.
We are having a COVID surge + a nasty head cold going around. Lots of students are needing to isolate.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 11, 2022, 04:29:29 PM
I have a student who really needs to drop and get out of my hair. Stu has missed half the labs, but DID take the midterm exam. Stu has also failed every test. But stu is TRYING!!!
I had one like that, but missed almost all the labs. Mine did drop, thankfully. I even tried to work with them so they could make up missed labs, but they only showed up to lab once. I wonder if they thought the class was totally online.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
I've been thinking similar things about dropped scores for a while now. I've even had some say when I tell them the missed quiz will be dropped, "But what if I do bad on one?" or "I already have one I want to drop."
My head banging for today: yesterday in lab, I had someone so confused about lab calculations. I'm at least glad the student stayed after collecting the data to work on the calculations, but it seemed like they were just selecting random numbers to manipulate...and they're still stuck on material from a few chapters ago, material that I warned them would keep coming up in later sections.
Sigh.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
I allow any student who want to to take a "second chance" exam replacing one of the first two exams during the final exam period. This also serves as the make-up exam for any missed exams. This works well because I don't have to figure out who has a legitimate excuse, or proctor make-ups at other times, and only need one other version of the exam.
Warning: rant.
OK, I'm all done now. I'm done with with the expectation that I can easily flip the class hyflex whenever a student needs it. Colleagues, if all you [generic you] have to do is to set up a virtual session on the LMS and hit the start button, more power to you. But I am teaching an in-person lab. This lab is in-person for accreditation purposes. We had special dispensation during COVID for adaptation. The online version was not the same thing. I'm tired of the assumption that I can do this and that I should do this. Just because students want this does not mean it's a good idea.
And grad students, complaining to the chair (not me) of the department that you may have to take an evening class or a class on Friday afternoon takes some chutzpah. Be glad I am not any of your advisors.
This concludes my rant for today. I usually do love teaching, but this semester needs to end.
Mid-term portfolios are due today for one of my drawing classes. I have been stressing the importance of taking care of your work this entire semester, including multiple demos on how to protect your drawings.
Student emails me late last night to let me know they spilled water on a bunch of their pieces so they won't have the required number and they hope that doesn't affect their grade...
Quote from: Puget on October 13, 2022, 08:51:32 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
When I gave a lot of quizzes instead of a couple of big tests, I not only dropped a lowest quiz but I allowed students to take a make-up quiz on the last day of the semester for any/all quizzes they missed. However, the scheduled quizzes were multiple-choice; the makeups were short answer, and the students were aware of this. A few students did well on the makeups; many did not. But they had their make-up quiz.
I allow any student who want to to take a "second chance" exam replacing one of the first two exams during the final exam period. This also serves as the make-up exam for any missed exams. This works well because I don't have to figure out who has a legitimate excuse, or proctor make-ups at other times, and only need one other version of the exam.
Stu: Hey Dr. Mode, how do I attach a handle to a basket? I forgot.
Me: Stu, we learned that two weeks ago. If you look on Canvas there is a handout that explains exactly how to attach handles to baskets so maybe you want to review that.
Stu: You need to show me again, I'm a visual learner.
Me: The learning style theory has been debunked, and also, there are pictures in the handout. Read it and it will show you exactly what to do.
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
Me: I did a demo this morning in lecture that included attaching handles (he skipped lecture), and there is the handout for you to read. It's up to you to figure it out and at least make an attempt at attaching the handle. You did it last week, it's the same thing this week with the additional steps we went over this morning.
Stu: **grumbles** and starts looking for the handout.
This particular student seems to have reached the pinnacle of learned helplessness. Most of his time in lab he has a hand in the air to ask a question, and I know it frustrates him, but typically my answers are along the lines of, "Well, what does it say in the instructions? or "What is the due date according to Canvas?"
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I had to teach a lab due to a sick TA. Wow, the students are so damn helpless. "This question says to watch the video posted on [class website]. Should we watch it?"
Well, only if you want to have a snowball's chance of getting it right.
"The directions say to divide A by B. So, if I have [Number] for A and [Number] for B, I just divide them?"
Yep.
"What do you mean by 'what is a skill you learned in lab last week that was helpful completing the lab this week?' "
My apologies, perhaps you did not learn any new skills.
Gah!!!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Wait - stu who refuses to read thinks they want to be an engineer?!?
Seriously, we make children switch from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" at about age 6 or 7.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 13, 2022, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Wait - stu who refuses to read thinks they want to be an engineer?!?
Seriously, we make children switch from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" at about age 6 or 7.
Yes indeed. Stu is a first year engineering student. He is also in a class with a colleague who told me Stu asked if he could turn in work he "forgot to do" back in week two so he could improve his grade. The answer was no, of course. And knowing my colleague, it was probably said in a "are you *bleeping* kidding me?" tone. It's not easy to earn A's in a lot of these first year courses, but honestly, it's rather hard to fail them, but students do all the time.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 13, 2022, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Wait - stu who refuses to read thinks they want to be an engineer?!?
Seriously, we make children switch from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" at about age 6 or 7.
Yes indeed. Stu is a first year engineering student. He is also in a class with a colleague who told me Stu asked if he could turn in work he "forgot to do" back in week two so he could improve his grade. The answer was no, of course. And knowing my colleague, it was probably said in a "are you *bleeping* kidding me?" tone. It's not easy to earn A's in a lot of these first year courses, but honestly, it's rather hard to fail them, but students do all the time.
Stu sounds entitled.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
My university's rules wouldn't permit your current policy as we are required to offer make up exams for documented excuses.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 04:21:58 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 13, 2022, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Wait - stu who refuses to read thinks they want to be an engineer?!?
Seriously, we make children switch from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" at about age 6 or 7.
Yes indeed. Stu is a first year engineering student. He is also in a class with a colleague who told me Stu asked if he could turn in work he "forgot to do" back in week two so he could improve his grade. The answer was no, of course. And knowing my colleague, it was probably said in a "are you *bleeping* kidding me?" tone. It's not easy to earn A's in a lot of these first year courses, but honestly, it's rather hard to fail them, but students do all the time.
Stu sounds entitled.
Reminds me of one of mine when I first taught.
Stu: I know everything. If I just tell you, will that get me an A?
Me: You do need to show me you read the book and write the paper.
Stu: I have ADD! I can't
read a bookkkkkkkkkk!Me: So there is a lot of material in the book. Let's figure out how you can access it and then show me you learned it.
Stu: BUT I ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHINGGGGGGGGG IN ITTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He switched from Business to Motorcycle Repair, IIRC.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on October 13, 2022, 09:46:56 AM
Mid-term portfolios are due today for one of my drawing classes. I have been stressing the importance of taking care of your work this entire semester, including multiple demos on how to protect your drawings.
Student emails me late last night to let me know they spilled water on a bunch of their pieces so they won't have the required number and they hope that doesn't affect their grade...
Does stu want participation points? I recently had a student get upset with me because I don't give credit on tests when they write 'I don't know' as an answer. Seriously.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 13, 2022, 05:47:53 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
My university's rules wouldn't permit your current policy as we are required to offer make up exams for documented excuses.
I allow makeups for COVID, but also tell students at the start of the semester that I will use our uni's designated COVID reporting form to report the status of the student. That helps keeps everyone safe and provides a disincentive for students to fabricate COVID diagnoses.
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
My policy since we returned F2F is, for courses graded on quizes and exams, that missed quizes are replaced by the midterm or by the final, whichever is after, missed midterms are replaced by the cumulative final, and missed finals are replaced by a weighted average of the midterm and the later quizes. If a quiz is missed and the exam replacing it was also missed, it gets a zero, and so on. So they can miss an exam or even multiple quizes, for any reason, without tanking their grade, even as every major topic gets assessed. That's the theory, anyway - I got plenty of grade-grubbers claiming they thought the final replaced everything else (the syllabus clearly explained about grades not transferring from the final to the quizes). So I've added one more line saying that under no circumstances will the course be graded solely on the final.
Exam question specifically states not to address issue X (which would not require familiarity with the assigned readings and related lecture), but ~25% of students address issue X anyway (and earned no credit). Class is mostly sophomores. Pandemic effect or not? That is the question.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 14, 2022, 11:46:31 PM
Exam question specifically states not to address issue X (which would not require familiarity with the assigned readings and related lecture), but ~25% of students address issue X anyway (and earned no credit). Class is mostly sophomores. Pandemic effect or not? That is the question.
I'm finding that more and more students seem to be reading just enough of the instructions for them to think they know what they need to do, and not reading (or remembering) everything. And then they get indignant when I point out their error and claim that they "didn't know", even though it's right there in the instructions. This isn't new, but there sure seems to be a lot more of it.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 14, 2022, 11:46:31 PM
Exam question specifically states not to address issue X (which would not require familiarity with the assigned readings and related lecture), but ~25% of students address issue X anyway (and earned no credit). Class is mostly sophomores. Pandemic effect or not? That is the question.
Under the stress of exams, I can easily see some students missing the "not." Or for students who have been taught to look for keywords they see X and they don't see the "not."
Even at the master's level, last year some students either didn't bother to read instructions or didn't understand them, as they based their capstone papers around X instead of Y, despite Y being in all the instructions, the syllabus, the rubric, and discussed in a required and an optional session.
Quote from: Anon1787 on October 14, 2022, 11:46:31 PM
Exam question specifically states not to address issue X (which would not require familiarity with the assigned readings and related lecture), but ~25% of students address issue X anyway (and earned no credit). Class is mostly sophomores. Pandemic effect or not? That is the question.
75% did it right? Good for your students!
I have learned to put the word
NOT in ALL CAPS and bolded, particularly for an essay exam where that question may be a significant part of the grade. In one of my exams in which I have a similar issue, I also explain:
Answers that discuss the issue from X perspective will earn a score of 0 on this item; students are to answer this question with information related to the lecture/assigned readings for this course. But, this is because students have complained previously that they were "so confused" and didn't understand "not." Your mileage may vary with your students and administration.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 13, 2022, 08:16:10 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 04:21:58 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 13, 2022, 03:18:52 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 13, 2022, 01:15:06 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 13, 2022, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 13, 2022, 11:42:39 AM
Stu: But I can't learn by reading. You need to show me.
I'm at a loss for words. If Stu can't read, what on earth is Stu doing in college?
Good God! Yep, sounds like my place. Our institution takes everyone. If you have the money, then you're accepted. I wonder if some of our students are illiterate.
I get the feeling Stu can read just fine, he just chooses not to. And I refuse to spoon feed. And apparently, that makes me mean 😪 But if Stu wants to be an engineer, he'll have to read, and *gasp* do math, and perhaps both at the same time.
Wait - stu who refuses to read thinks they want to be an engineer?!?
Seriously, we make children switch from "learning to read" to "reading to learn" at about age 6 or 7.
Yes indeed. Stu is a first year engineering student. He is also in a class with a colleague who told me Stu asked if he could turn in work he "forgot to do" back in week two so he could improve his grade. The answer was no, of course. And knowing my colleague, it was probably said in a "are you *bleeping* kidding me?" tone. It's not easy to earn A's in a lot of these first year courses, but honestly, it's rather hard to fail them, but students do all the time.
Stu sounds entitled.
Reminds me of one of mine when I first taught.
Stu: I know everything. If I just tell you, will that get me an A?
Me: You do need to show me you read the book and write the paper.
Stu: I have ADD! I can't read a bookkkkkkkkkk!
Me: So there is a lot of material in the book. Let's figure out how you can access it and then show me you learned it.
Stu: BUT I ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHINGGGGGGGGG IN ITTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He switched from Business to Motorcycle Repair, IIRC.
Too bad he doesn't like to read. He'd probably go for parts of
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
What part of "due no later than the start of your registered class" makes it sound like you can try to start the assignment after your class has started?
Especially you've had this type of assignment every week? And you can always finish it early!
I have a student who STILL thinks that we have lab twice a week. We do not.
Hint: This is the same student who doesn't come to lab because of conflicts and is failing both lab and lecture.
While grading, I had this gem multiple times: the question asks how A and B are different from each other, but over half the students told me how they are the same. There wasn't even a "not" in the question for them to miss.
The major head banging (and not the fun type) was caused by one of the "you're so haaaarrrrd and don't care if we fail and don't help us" emails. I responded by reminding the student they had never come to office hours or stayed behind after collecting lab data to ask questions.
I'm so ready for this term to be done.
Quote from: Stockmann on October 14, 2022, 10:17:52 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
My policy since we returned F2F is, for courses graded on quizes and exams, that missed quizes are replaced by the midterm or by the final, whichever is after, missed midterms are replaced by the cumulative final, and missed finals are replaced by a weighted average of the midterm and the later quizes. If a quiz is missed and the exam replacing it was also missed, it gets a zero, and so on. So they can miss an exam or even multiple quizes, for any reason, without tanking their grade, even as every major topic gets assessed. That's the theory, anyway - I got plenty of grade-grubbers claiming they thought the final replaced everything else (the syllabus clearly explained about grades not transferring from the final to the quizes). So I've added one more line saying that under no circumstances will the course be graded solely on the final.
I don't have a cumulative final exam-the final is worth the same amount as the other two exams. If they miss one of the first two exams, students just take a make up exam during the finals period in addition to the third exam. You could still have a dropped exam if you wanted, but this way there's no penalty for a student who misses an exam.
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2022, 08:05:17 AM
Quote from: Stockmann on October 14, 2022, 10:17:52 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on October 13, 2022, 06:50:24 AM
Two of my classes have exams this week. So far I'm up to 3 emails of students who think they have COVID, and one who "ate bad sushi". All looking for make ups for the exam. No make-ups per the policy- that's why I drop one exam score. The one claiming bad sushi has offered to wear a diaper if needed if I don't allow a delay. She missed the first exam entirely so she doesn't have a score to drop. While I find her story fishy (pun intended), I'll let her take it tomorrow morning just in case it's for real.
I think I need to rethink the exam make-up policy in some way. Students regard a dropped exam as a freebie, rather than as a safety net. Maybe have the comprehensive final count for the missed exam? Other ideas?
My policy since we returned F2F is, for courses graded on quizes and exams, that missed quizes are replaced by the midterm or by the final, whichever is after, missed midterms are replaced by the cumulative final, and missed finals are replaced by a weighted average of the midterm and the later quizes. If a quiz is missed and the exam replacing it was also missed, it gets a zero, and so on. So they can miss an exam or even multiple quizes, for any reason, without tanking their grade, even as every major topic gets assessed. That's the theory, anyway - I got plenty of grade-grubbers claiming they thought the final replaced everything else (the syllabus clearly explained about grades not transferring from the final to the quizes). So I've added one more line saying that under no circumstances will the course be graded solely on the final.
I don't have a cumulative final exam-the final is worth the same amount as the other two exams. If they miss one of the first two exams, students just take a make up exam during the finals period in addition to the third exam. You could still have a dropped exam if you wanted, but this way there's no penalty for a student who misses an exam.
This is what I do as well, except I let any student who wants to replace an earlier exam grade do so (I call it a "second chance exam"). I've found it helps relieve a lot of student anxiety, and radically reduces the amount of whining and special pleading I have to endure, so win-win. It does make for a bit of extra grading during finals, but typically only 10-15% of the class take me up on the offer so it isn't too bad.
Dear Prof. artalot,
Can I have an extension on the essay? My allergies are really acting up.
I've heard it all. I don't even know what to say to that.
I am seeing excuses I've never seen before:
I had to do laundry.
I am allergic to [everyday item].
My Mom had to help me take a COVID test. [from student who lives ON CAMPUS]
I have pain. [yep, that was it]
I'm going to have to remember the mantra "teach the students you have, not the students you wish for", but it's getting really hard.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 18, 2022, 11:24:20 AM
I am seeing excuses I've never seen before:
I had to do laundry.
I am allergic to [everyday item].
My Mom had to help me take a COVID test. [from student who lives ON CAMPUS]
I have pain. [yep, that was it]
I'm going to have to remember the mantra "teach the students you have, not the students you wish for", but it's getting really hard.
And I was just joking when I said I was allergic to nitrogen and work.
Had a student today tell me that they won't be able to complete an assignment because they are taking a trip for a week. It wouldn't be an issue if they did not somehow think they should be excused from completing the work. It's a sketchbook assignment, I told them to take their sketchbook with them and work on it if they wanted credit. Student seemed shocked that I would suggest they should complete work while on vacation.
Quote from: artalot on October 18, 2022, 09:50:04 AM
Dear Prof. artalot,
Can I have an extension on the essay? My allergies are really acting up.
I've heard it all. I don't even know what to say to that.
I mean...allergies can be really severe and could make it hard to do work. If students ask for extensions, I give them unless there's some reason not to. Better than gnashing teeth about it.
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2022, 05:49:49 PM
Quote from: artalot on October 18, 2022, 09:50:04 AM
Dear Prof. artalot,
Can I have an extension on the essay? My allergies are really acting up.
I've heard it all. I don't even know what to say to that.
I mean...allergies can be really severe and could make it hard to do work. If students ask for extensions on major assignments, I just grant them unless there's some reason not to. Better than gnashing teeth about it.
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2022, 05:49:49 PM
Quote from: artalot on October 18, 2022, 09:50:04 AM
Dear Prof. artalot,
Can I have an extension on the essay? My allergies are really acting up.
I've heard it all. I don't even know what to say to that.
I mean...allergies can be really severe and could make it hard to do work. If students ask for extensions, I give them unless there's some reason not to. Better than gnashing teeth about it.
Part of the problem I see with a request like that is that it's extremely vague and open-ended. How
much of an extension? How
frequently do the person's allergies "act up"? What if they "act up" at the time of the final exam?
This is a potential hole with no bottom.
Also, my allergies act up, too. You know what, I still have to get stuff done. I don't think it prepares them for work after college if they can't differentiate between something that requires OTC medication and something that warrants an extension. And, it's not as if this assignment popped out of the blue - we've been talking about it in class for weeks and all students were required to have a one-on-one meeting with me to report on their progress, ask questions, etc.
Quote from: artalot on October 19, 2022, 09:46:35 AM
Also, my allergies act up, too. You know what, I still have to get stuff done. I don't think it prepares them for work after college if they can't differentiate between something that requires OTC medication and something that warrants an extension. And, it's not as if this assignment popped out of the blue - we've been talking about it in class for weeks and all students were required to have a one-on-one meeting with me to report on their progress, ask questions, etc.
Yesterday I had a student ask how many more lectures there were, because it was so hard to get up for 8:30 lectures. Yeah, that's why robots deliver them so no
instructor has to get up for 8:30. Oh, wait......
Today so far I've had:
1. Student who got a 45% on the first exam. Said she didn't know what to study. Did she use the study guide I provided? No. Did she use the learning check questions on the CMS to study? No. Did she use any active study strategies at all? Also no. Did she watch the study strategies video I made for them and posted prominently at the top of the CMS page and also suggested multiple times they watch? Lol obviously no. OK then, I think we've identified why you did poorly.
2. Student who emailed at 11:30 PM last night that their computer crashed and they hadn't saved their assignment (due at midnight) so could they please have an extension? Emailed again this morning that the computer crash resulted in them losing all their files including their grad school application materials so they are freaking out and need a further extension. How do you get to senior year without learning to back up your files? Digital natives my ass. Also probably a sign you aren't ready for grad school.
Students are bringing in [basket reeds] for their project & get a few extra credit points. But it's amazing how many them email me/stop me in the hall saying "I brought in [basket reeds]. When will you update my grade? I don't see my extra credit."
When did they bring them?
That same day, less than an hour ago.
Students, there are 500 of you and just 1 of me. I promise it will get done, but not at this very moment.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2022, 11:18:21 AM
Students are bringing in [basket reeds] for their project & get a few extra credit points.
Given your user name, I am picturing "basket reeds" as code for "fruit flies."
Quote from: Liquidambar on October 19, 2022, 01:00:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2022, 11:18:21 AM
Students are bringing in [basket reeds] for their project & get a few extra credit points.
Given your user name, I am picturing "basket reeds" as code for "fruit flies."
Not fruit flies, but that would be awesome to have them bring! Although I imagine I'd get a range of "flying critters", many of which would not be fruit flies (fungus gnats, tiny moths, house flies, etc.)
I ask in class today what their first word was and when they said it. They always used to have answers, but this year they have no idea. I ask if they just never talk to their parents? Awkward laughter. I assign them to ask their parents before the next class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2022, 04:31:29 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on October 19, 2022, 01:00:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2022, 11:18:21 AM
Students are bringing in [basket reeds] for their project & get a few extra credit points.
Given your user name, I am picturing "basket reeds" as code for "fruit flies."
Not fruit flies, but that would be awesome to have them bring! Although I imagine I'd get a range of "flying critters", many of which would not be fruit flies (fungus gnats, tiny moths, house flies, etc.)
If you would like fruit flies, I can give you with an endless supply of "wild type" from my compost bin.
This month I gave an overly hard exam, managed to lose a student's exam before grading it, and have spent 10:1 prep:class time on boring ppt lectures with clicker problems 1/2 the class can't solve. This is with teaching load of 1 class Ive taught before. Dunno how y'all do it
I'm thinking of imposing a ban on all questions, whether in class, or via email, or any other method of communication, that contain the phrase "just double-checking" unless the student(s) can identify that I have made some sort of mistake in the instructions - said something in step A that I contradict in step B - or have a dropbox closing a minute after it's opening, etc. And anyone who asks such a question that does not identify an error on my part gets to ask no more questions that day. Ugh. I'm not such a meanie that I would actually ban questions but I'm seriously sick and tired of the "double-checking." Yes, Stu, there really is such thing as a stupid question, you just asked one. I have a colleague who wants to ban any excuses that contain the phrase "I just noticed..." It's week 9 of the semester, and I'm wishing desperately it was Thanksgiving break next week. These first-years are killing me!
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2022, 05:49:49 PM
Quote from: artalot on October 18, 2022, 09:50:04 AM
Dear Prof. artalot,
Can I have an extension on the essay? My allergies are really acting up.
I've heard it all. I don't even know what to say to that.
I mean...allergies can be really severe and could make it hard to do work. If students ask for extensions, I give them unless there's some reason not to. Better than gnashing teeth about it.
A friend of mine has seasonal allergies so severe he throws a fever and requires systemic steroids. Your student may not be trying to pull a fast one.
Quote from: EdnaMode on October 20, 2022, 10:53:43 AM
I'm thinking of imposing a ban on all questions, whether in class, or via email, or any other method of communication, that contain the phrase "just double-checking" unless the student(s) can identify that I have made some sort of mistake in the instructions - said something in step A that I contradict in step B - or have a dropbox closing a minute after it's opening, etc. And anyone who asks such a question that does not identify an error on my part gets to ask no more questions that day. Ugh. I'm not such a meanie that I would actually ban questions but I'm seriously sick and tired of the "double-checking." Yes, Stu, there really is such thing as a stupid question, you just asked one. I have a colleague who wants to ban any excuses that contain the phrase "I just noticed..." It's week 9 of the semester, and I'm wishing desperately it was Thanksgiving break next week. These first-years are killing me!
I'd reply with "The instructions/due date/syllabus information is correct"
I got a TON of these emails in the start of Fall because the first day of lectures is a Thursday. Labs are MTWTh so the first day of lab is the first full week.
It's in the syllabus, it's on the online class description, it's in the "Welcome To Class" announcement. It's even on a giant pink piece of paper taped to the lab doors.
"I know [the syllabus/your announcement/the door] says lab doesn't meet this week, but I wanted to double-check that I don't need to go."
One round of "The dates in the syllabus are correct" and they don't write back. Usually.
I also get sad & confused students trying to open the doors to the lab rooms. Do you not see the GIANT piece of pink paper saying "[Basketweaving 101] labs start [dates that are next week]"
Seriously, what would they do if I said "Hah! You have solved the riddle! You have been chosen to be the only student that has to attend lab this Monday, even though the term hasn't started yet."
Not really a teaching issue but some of you teach in this field and it happened in a classroom so.......
My non-physics course classroom is in the physics department. Today, I found what may have been the leftovers from some weird teaching experiment. In the corner of the room were: (1) a bicycle wheel with no tire, but a 4" wooden handle coming out of the hub on each side; (2) what looks vaguely like a gyroscope; (3) a Dremel tool; (4) several electric cords.
What in the name of Nic Tesla is this stuff used for?
The bicycle wheel is for a standard demo about angular momentum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaauRiRX4do I don't know about the other stuff.
Were they trying to replicate Moholy-Nagy's "Light-Space Modulator"? (1930)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdK19meZTk
and (more effective with the lights off)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByJ3r39JNBA
M.
Quote from: mamselle on October 20, 2022, 02:56:11 PM
Were they trying to replicate Moholy-Nagy's "Light-Space Modulator"? (1930)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdK19meZTk
and (more effective with the lights off)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByJ3r39JNBA
M.
I thought it may have been for the Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuUJfYcn3V4
Ha!
That cheered me up no end!
M.
Quote from: secundem_artem on October 20, 2022, 02:43:14 PM
Not really a teaching issue but some of you teach in this field and it happened in a classroom so.......
My non-physics course classroom is in the physics department. Today, I found what may have been the leftovers from some weird teaching experiment. In the corner of the room were: (1) a bicycle wheel with no tire, but a 4" wooden handle coming out of the hub on each side; (2) what looks vaguely like a gyroscope; (3) a Dremel tool; (4) several electric cords.
What in the name of Nic Tesla is this stuff used for?
Physics teaching demos get all the cool toys!
If I'd known that I could have gone for a Ph.D in physics education, I would have done it. I LOVED those sorts of demos as a kid at the science center. Undergraduate me thought "Real physicists don't get to play with bowling balls, pendulums, and catapults. Guess I better stick with biology". Missed opportunity!
Geneticist- since you love that stuff, I highly recommend that you go find "Something Incredibly Wonderful Happens". It's the biography of Frank Oppenheimer (brother of J. Robert) and founder of the Exploratorium in San Francisco.
If you've never been the Exploratorium is the Grandaddy (and the best!) of all hands on science museums. Nothing but these great demos and huge interactive exhibits. And then there was the tactile dome. . . . but I digress.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 20, 2022, 11:50:15 AM
I'd reply with "The instructions/due date/syllabus information is correct"
...
Seriously, what would they do if I said "Hah! You have solved the riddle! You have been chosen to be the only student that has to attend lab this Monday, even though the term hasn't started yet."
I usually reply "What does it say in the instructions? On the syllabus? etc." or "The instructions are correct. Please follow them." and they often manage to still maintain that confused/hurt look. I have been tempted to bring out the snark and say, "Only for YOU are the instructions different, but, you have to guess the answer, I won't tell you." But I'm sure that would either bring tears, or have them running out of the room to go see the dept chair and tell him how horrible I am.
Apparently we have entered the head banging portion of the semester--
Student asking for extension on the weekly assignments because she has an exam in another class next week. Also wants to take the second exam in my class on a different day because she has other exams that day as well. Um, no, these are normal conditions of college, also experienced by most of your classmates. I did offer to meet with her to discuss time management strategies. She doesn't seem to want to do that though.
Clearly, her time management strategies are focused on getting her profs to change exam dates for her....
M.
Quote from: Puget on October 21, 2022, 06:34:50 AM
Apparently we have entered the head banging portion of the semester--
It's been Dead Grandma season here for three weeks already. Also, Things at Home Have Been a Mess season, as well as "I have been in Thailand for a month on a trip that I planned early this year, but I'll be back next weekend, so give me a list of what I've missed and need to catch up on" season.
In other words, it's Prof. AmLitHist's Life Sucks Just as Much as Yours, and I Still Have to Show Up and Work, So Suck It Up season.
Quote from: artalot on October 19, 2022, 09:46:35 AM
Also, my allergies act up, too. You know what, I still have to get stuff done. I don't think it prepares them for work after college if they can't differentiate between something that requires OTC medication and something that warrants an extension. And, it's not as if this assignment popped out of the blue - we've been talking about it in class for weeks and all students were required to have a one-on-one meeting with me to report on their progress, ask questions, etc.
In life after college, what warrants an extension depends on some combination of what is due, who you are, and what the reason you can't do it is. Some things just have to get done unless you a bus runs you over. There are lots of things that aren't particularly time sensitive where all kinds of excuses would be acceptable and nobody would bat an eye if you asked someone if you could submit something in a day or two since your allergies were acting up and you were having a hard time putting the finishing touches on it.
Often, this would be fine if it was a rare occurrence, but not if it happened constantly. Sometimes, extensions are basically the industry standard. My inbox is filled with blanket extensions on deadlines for conference proposals because almost everyone was late in submitting. As far as I can tell, editors of journals and edited collections assume that many contributors won't actually finish stuff by the deadline and plan accordingly.
It's fine to not accept things late if doing so is going to defeat the purpose of the assignment or mess up your timetable, but there really isn't some sort of big lesson students need to be learning about asking for extensions.
Quote from: Caracal on October 21, 2022, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: artalot on October 19, 2022, 09:46:35 AM
Also, my allergies act up, too. You know what, I still have to get stuff done. I don't think it prepares them for work after college if they can't differentiate between something that requires OTC medication and something that warrants an extension. And, it's not as if this assignment popped out of the blue - we've been talking about it in class for weeks and all students were required to have a one-on-one meeting with me to report on their progress, ask questions, etc.
In life after college, what warrants an extension depends on some combination of what is due, who you are, and what the reason you can't do it is. Some things just have to get done unless you a bus runs you over. There are lots of things that aren't particularly time sensitive where all kinds of excuses would be acceptable and nobody would bat an eye if you asked someone if you could submit something in a day or two since your allergies were acting up and you were having a hard time putting the finishing touches on it.
Often, this would be fine if it was a rare occurrence, but not if it happened constantly. Sometimes, extensions are basically the industry standard. My inbox is filled with blanket extensions on deadlines for conference proposals because almost everyone was late in submitting. As far as I can tell, editors of journals and edited collections assume that many contributors won't actually finish stuff by the deadline and plan accordingly.
It's fine to not accept things late if doing so is going to defeat the purpose of the assignment or mess up your timetable, but there really isn't some sort of big lesson students need to be learning about asking for extensions.
The difference to me is fairness, given the context of a class where everyone is being evaluated-- If I give extensions to only students who ask, it isn't equitable because a lot of students wouldn't ask in these circumstances. And students from more privileged background are more likely to ask, so this is particularly bad. That's why outside of serious illnesses and emergencies, I vastly prefer just dropping the X lowest scores for everyone-- they all get the same number of freebies and I don't need to play judge.
Quote from: Caracal on October 21, 2022, 09:30:19 AM
Sometimes, extensions are basically the industry standard.
True. Perhaps some of these students are hoping for a career at NASA.
Quote from: Puget on October 19, 2022, 06:25:56 PM
I ask in class today what their first word was and when they said it. They always used to have answers, but this year they have no idea. I ask if they just never talk to their parents? Awkward laughter. I assign them to ask their parents before the next class.
Some students might be adoptees, fosters, or wards of the State? I've always hated questions about family history and my early days, because as an adoptee, I have no idea. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I have no idea what why first word was and I don't think either of my adoptive parents have any idea either.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on October 21, 2022, 01:17:30 PM
Quote from: Puget on October 19, 2022, 06:25:56 PM
I ask in class today what their first word was and when they said it. They always used to have answers, but this year they have no idea. I ask if they just never talk to their parents? Awkward laughter. I assign them to ask their parents before the next class.
Some students might be adoptees, fosters, or wards of the State? I've always hated questions about family history and my early days, because as an adoptee, I have no idea. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I have no idea what why first word was and I don't think either of my adoptive parents have any idea either.
A few of them maybe (and I try to be sensitive to that), but not many (such are the demographics of our private university, and even many adoptees were adopted as infants), certainly not the approximately 90% of the class who had no idea.
Stu: were we supposed to compare those two [things] in the compare/contrast essay? Because I just talked about one.
Me (to myself): this is the third quiz; every quiz has had the same exact format. Both [things] were pictured in this quiz and below them was the question that read: Compare/Contrast Essay: Discuss X concept in these two [things]. Provide specific examples from each [thing].
Me (to the student): Yes, you needed to compare both. Try not to worry, there are X additional quiz opportunities.
Me (in my office): headdesk
I remember comparison/contrast essays....
Yep, I do.
Such fun!
Be of ggod courage...
M.
My administration sent an email encouraging us to give extra credit (which I don't do) to students who attend a mental health fair on campus. Somehow, students have gotten ahold of this email and are trying to strong-arm me into giving them the extra-credit. They think I "have to" because my boss "said so".
On no, precious ones. The counseling office isn't my boss. Go talk to my Dean about this. Go ahead. I dare you.
Quote from: FishProf on October 22, 2022, 10:40:20 AM
My administration sent an email encouraging us to give extra credit (which I don't do) to students who attend a mental health fair on campus. Somehow, students have gotten ahold of this email and are trying to strong-arm me into giving them the extra-credit. They think I "have to" because my boss "said so".
On no, precious ones. The counseling office isn't my boss. Go talk to my Dean about this. Go ahead. I dare you.
Wow. Someone didn't think through this suggestion. What happened to bribing students with free swag to get them to attend events? (Food! Shirts! Pens! Enter to win an iPad!)
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
Quote from: fosca on October 22, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
Seriously - Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam all believe that words have a single fixed meaning that was determined at the beginning of time. That means there is no such thing as field-specific meanings of terms. Words mean exactly what God meant them to mean and nothing else. (Okay, this only applies to Hebrew, Sanskrit, and Arabic respectively, and I'm taking this doctrine way out of context to make a point.)
Quote from: fosca on October 22, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
I let students in my Ethics class bring a notecard to the final, and I give them a review sheet in advance with all the topics they should know, including a list of vocabulary words. There are always a few who just look up the vocab words online instead of using the course materials, which can be entertaining. I use "Objectivist" to mean "someone who thinks there are objective truths about morality," but if you google it, what you'll find is information on the views of
Ayn Rand, which the students will then dutifully copy down on their notecards....
Quote from: fosca on October 22, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
I once had a student tell me, in genuine surprise, 'Wow, this is making me rethink stuff I learned in kindergarten!' It took a lot of self control to do nothing more than remark, mildly, 'Well, yes, we do approach these topics at a higher level in college.'
Quote from: ergative on October 24, 2022, 12:40:08 AM
Quote from: fosca on October 22, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
I once had a student tell me, in genuine surprise, 'Wow, this is making me rethink stuff I learned in kindergarten!' It took a lot of self control to do nothing more than remark, mildly, 'Well, yes, we do approach these topics at a higher level in college.'
I think younger people, in addition to physical and emotional bubble wrap, have been raised in intellectual bubble wrap as well. Any question is expected to have a definitive right answer which can be googled. Many students are really baffled when they do an experiment and I ask them "What does your data indicate?", especially when I imply that different people could get data which would have
different interpretations. (Which is kind of funny for people who have been indoctrinated about the importance of different peoples' "realities" and "lived experiences"). But they really do expect the prof to both
have and
give the "right answer".
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 24, 2022, 06:32:27 AM
Quote from: ergative on October 24, 2022, 12:40:08 AM
Quote from: fosca on October 22, 2022, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: Aster on October 11, 2019, 06:23:22 PM
Stu Dent: "I read on the internet that this vocabulary word also means this. Would you change the exam question to make it more clear?"
I check Stu Dent's pasted weblink. He has sourced an article from a different academic sub-discipline. The linked article is also meant for schoolteachers to use, in a highly specific context for that audience.
Me: "This is why we have a mandatory textbook."
I had a student a few years back who didn't want to read the text, so he watched random videos on YouTube about the topic. Needless to say, he didn't do well in the class.
I currently have students that can't quite understand how my discipline's definition of vocabulary terms might be more complicated than the English meaning of the words that make up the terms. I think some still don't quite get it, more than halfway through the semester.
I once had a student tell me, in genuine surprise, 'Wow, this is making me rethink stuff I learned in kindergarten!' It took a lot of self control to do nothing more than remark, mildly, 'Well, yes, we do approach these topics at a higher level in college.'
I think younger people, in addition to physical and emotional bubble wrap, have been raised in intellectual bubble wrap as well. Any question is expected to have a definitive right answer which can be googled. Many students are really baffled when they do an experiment and I ask them "What does your data indicate?", especially when I imply that different people could get data which would have different interpretations. (Which is kind of funny for people who have been indoctrinated about the importance of different peoples' "realities" and "lived experiences"). But they really do expect the prof to both have and give the "right answer".
They definitely tend to have been spoon-fed a lot of "this is THE right answer" stuff. Mainly because their performance on standardized tests is so desperately important. Most American K-12 education is teach-for-the-test stuff now.
Midterm essay exam: One student Marie Kondoed everything.
I can't award you points if you don't write anything!
The ONE question that had a word limit she overshot by 250%.
Exam just started. And every single copy of one of the versions was missing a page. Not how I wanted my Monday to start.
Thankfully, a student noticed right away & we got the missing page copied & handed out, but oof.
Dear PITA student,
I am not your personal tutor. I am not at your beck and call. It is not reasonable for me to meet with you twice on the same day to discuss the same assignment. It is not reasonable for you to send an email after business hours requesting I meet with you that evening. I spend twice as much time dealing with you than the other 29 students in that class put together. No, just no.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on October 24, 2022, 03:18:35 PM
Dear PITA student,
I am not your personal tutor. I am not at your beck and call. It is not reasonable for me to meet with you twice on the same day to discuss the same assignment. It is not reasonable for you to send an email after business hours requesting I meet with you that evening. I spend twice as much time dealing with you than the other 29 students in that class put together. No, just no.
I've had a couple like this already this fall. I quickly set them straight.
Students, when I send you a detailed email for how to set-up your conference, including a BLUE HYPERLINK for the scheduling app, I am not going to be happy if you email me to ask "So when do you want to meet?"
Quote from: FishProf on October 25, 2022, 12:15:20 PM
Students, when I send you a detailed email for how to set-up your conference, including a BLUE HYPERLINK for the scheduling app, I am not going to be happy if you email me to ask "So when do you want to meet?"
I was once acquainted with a large extended family whose members never, as nearly as I can remember, simply complied with any request made by another. Whenever asked (or more often ordered--there wasn't a lot of polite asking done in this family) to do something, a family member would at a minimum demand that the question be repeated. This would usually be followed by a request for clarification--phrased in such a way as to insinuate that the requester didn't know what he or she was talking about in making the request--a promise to comply with the request at the requested's convenience, or a suggested modification of the requested action. Or any combination of the above.
They did this so consistently that I suspect that they often didn't even realize they were doing it. It was just ingrained in them automatically to turn any request into a negotiation, as if to simply and cheerfully fulfill a request would involve a loss of face. I think perhaps something similar is going on with many posters' students. Asking these sorts of questions about assignments is so ingrained into them that they may not even realize they're doing it. They just automatically open their mouths (or keyboards) and it comes out.
Students, the time to ask "one last question" about the materials on the exam is NOT after the exam has started!
TAs, I should not have had to go into your class and say "The exam started 5 minutes ago. No more review questions."
A student came up to me in the middle of our midterm (breathing his germs all over me) to say that he was sick with a fever and needed to go to student health. Yes, go, I told him. No need to finish or turn in the midterm. Your final exam will replace the midterm.
Did he leave? No. He stayed for the rest of the exam period, looking pathetic and contaminating the room.
What was the point of all this? Was I supposed to say, "Sure, go to student health. I'll just give you an A right now"?
Today I handed back some quizzes, and a student approached me saying she'd missed the quiz because she had a problem with Thursday quizzes. I asked her what the problem was, and she said the problem is that we don't have class on Thursdays. I assured her that yes, we did, and urged her to check the official class schedule. She then mentioned something about the class being Algebra something something - I told her the class is Intro Basketweaving I. She then checked something on her phone and promptly left. I distinctly remember saying "Welcome to Intro Basketweaving I" on the first day of class, I guess she wasn't there, wasn't listening or didn't believe me.
Quote from: Stockmann on October 31, 2022, 08:57:55 PM
Today I handed back some quizzes, and a student approached me saying she'd missed the quiz because she had a problem with Thursday quizzes. I asked her what the problem was, and she said the problem is that we don't have class on Thursdays. I assured her that yes, we did, and urged her to check the official class schedule. She then mentioned something about the class being Algebra something something - I told her the class is Intro Basketweaving I. She then checked something on her phone and promptly left. I distinctly remember saying "Welcome to Intro Basketweaving I" on the first day of class, I guess she wasn't there, wasn't listening or didn't believe me.
Unless you're on the quarter system this is around 8 weeks into the semester.. I used to have nightmares about realizing halfway through the semester that I'd never shown up for the right class, but she's actually done it.
We are on quarters and it's week 6 here. I had a panicked student ask for help finding one of the big lecture halls yesterday. Pretty sure they had a midterm and had never bothered to go to class in person.
Quote from: Harlow2 on October 31, 2022, 09:11:12 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on October 31, 2022, 08:57:55 PM
Today I handed back some quizzes, and a student approached me saying she'd missed the quiz because she had a problem with Thursday quizzes. I asked her what the problem was, and she said the problem is that we don't have class on Thursdays. I assured her that yes, we did, and urged her to check the official class schedule. She then mentioned something about the class being Algebra something something - I told her the class is Intro Basketweaving I. She then checked something on her phone and promptly left. I distinctly remember saying "Welcome to Intro Basketweaving I" on the first day of class, I guess she wasn't there, wasn't listening or didn't believe me.
Unless you're on the quarter system this is around 8 weeks into the semester.. I used to have nightmares about realizing halfway through the semester that I'd never shown up for the right class, but she's actually done it.
We are on the quarter system but classes still started weeks ago - so not quite as bad as halfway through a semester but still. We do do a lot of algebra in this class, but you'd think she would've noticed it wasn't the right course - I'd be a lot more sympathetic if it were the right course but wrong section kind of thing.
I am so fried this semester - too much going on in my personal life and students that seem to be daring me to fail them in one section. Their average was 10% less than the other section on the most recent exam. One of the students didn't tell me that directly, but I've heard them stirring up trouble by talking about how no one did well on the exam. Interestingly enough, the highest score was also in that section.
Maybe this could also go in the things I wish I could say...
Dear Stu,
You cheated on the exam. I caught you. Now I have to fill out forms. But, you SUCK at cheating, you still only earned 50% on the exam. You were already failing the course. Why bother cheating? Even a 100% on everything for the rest of the semester would barely earn you a passing grade. Seriously. Thanks ever so much for making me do more work, but I am not going to let this go.
Not at all sincerely yours,
Dr. Mode
After a two hour chalk talk, I remarked "OK. That's it for today. Too bad for the students who were absent, but per the syllabus, they may email you for your notes..."
And a student seriously replied "Wait! We were supposed to take notes?"
This is a class where the average on the midterm was 61 and the high score was 81 on an OPEN-NOTE essay eaxam.
I guess they just won't learn from experience.
If you miss a lab, there is an online form to request to attend another lab*. It says to list "all lab sections that same week" that you can attend. There is even a link to the class schedule.
There are no labs on Fridays for [Basketweaving 101]. Stop asking if you can "make-up the lab on Friday". No, you cannot make-up week 4 by going to lab twice in week 6. No, there are no labs on weekends either. No, you cannot attend [Basketweaving 101 lab] to make up for missing [Basketweaving 104 lab]!
Time for the "revise and resubmit" response to any emails asking to make-up labs in ways that do not exist.
I think we've hitting the panic part of the quarter where students realize that skipping class = losing points.
*or complete an alternate assignment if they are sick and need to isolate.
One of my pain-in-the-ass students decided to turn in a lab report nine days late. Oh well, you just lost 90% of your grade. I don't know how many times I tell them that there is a 10% loss each day. This student will find out the hard way and I'm sure I'll get a large dose of emotional manipulating language, which I really don't want to deal with. I'm way too overwhelmed at the moment. Even if I weren't overwhelmed- I wouldn't want to deal with it.
Say "Thank you for turning in your lab report. I'm always happy to give feedback! Please see the syllabus for the policy on late assignments."
No need to discuss.
Banging my head on myself. Teaching a class for the 1st time. Last assignment indicates that clearly the class is much more lost that I had realized in the previous assignment. As it's a good portion of them, it's likely on me. I've got 4 more weeks to clear up some major problems and teach the last set of material. You know how we want to tell students the only way to salvage the semester at this point is to build a time machine? Yep, I'm in need of a time machine.
OneMoreYear, we've all been there! Salvage what you can, make notes for next year, take a nap!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 03, 2022, 11:30:14 AM
One of my pain-in-the-ass students decided to turn in a lab report nine days late. Oh well, you just lost 90% of your grade. I don't know how many times I tell them that there is a 10% loss each day. This student will find out the hard way and I'm sure I'll get a large dose of emotional manipulating language, which I really don't want to deal with. I'm way too overwhelmed at the moment. Even if I weren't overwhelmed- I wouldn't want to deal with it.
Remember the LarryC quote we should all have tattooed in mirror image on our foreheads: Our job is to report the results of their efforts.
Or something close. I really should have gotten that tattoo.
Quote from: fishbrains on November 05, 2022, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 03, 2022, 11:30:14 AM
One of my pain-in-the-ass students decided to turn in a lab report nine days late. Oh well, you just lost 90% of your grade. I don't know how many times I tell them that there is a 10% loss each day. This student will find out the hard way and I'm sure I'll get a large dose of emotional manipulating language, which I really don't want to deal with. I'm way too overwhelmed at the moment. Even if I weren't overwhelmed- I wouldn't want to deal with it.
Remember the LarryC quote we should all have tattooed in mirror image on our foreheads: Our job is to report the results of their efforts.
Or something close. I really should have gotten that tattoo.
Right. I know. I've just been in a grumpy funk lately, so all of the usual crap students throw my way just seems to hit harder.
One of the essay topics I gave in my intro ethics class (they're timed and randomly assigned) was about how an ethics professor should handle a case of plagiarism.
At least one student plagiarized their answer.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 06, 2022, 03:52:31 PM
One of the essay topics I gave in my intro ethics class (they're timed and randomly assigned) was about how an ethics professor should handle a case of plagiarism.
At least one student plagiarized their answer.
So many performative dimensions...
The most important question, of course, is whether the student provided an appropriate approach for you to follow. I mean, it seems like step-by-step instructions.
Quote from: traductio on November 06, 2022, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 06, 2022, 03:52:31 PM
One of the essay topics I gave in my intro ethics class (they're timed and randomly assigned) was about how an ethics professor should handle a case of plagiarism.
At least one student plagiarized their answer.
So many performative dimensions...
The most important question, of course, is whether the student provided an appropriate approach for you to follow. I mean, it seems like step-by-step instructions.
Alas, they did, and I complied with their instructions!
Yeah, that's particularly headbanging-worthy, Parasaurolophus.
In other quiz-related shenanigans, a student nearly handed in his quiz with no name on it. Apparently he handed in the previous with no name, either. The quiz before that? Didn't take it. Somehow I'm not very optimistic about his chances of passing...
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 06, 2022, 06:02:21 PM
Quote from: traductio on November 06, 2022, 04:28:52 PM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 06, 2022, 03:52:31 PM
One of the essay topics I gave in my intro ethics class (they're timed and randomly assigned) was about how an ethics professor should handle a case of plagiarism.
At least one student plagiarized their answer.
So many performative dimensions...
The most important question, of course, is whether the student provided an appropriate approach for you to follow. I mean, it seems like step-by-step instructions.
Alas, they did, and I complied with their instructions!
So do they get bonus points for providing such an approved solution?
Mahag: Your midterm grade is "D." (Explains what needs improvement)
Female student who always dresses with minimal covering of flesh: "Is there any way I can end up with a B in this course?"
Mahag: "Yes. Starting coming class on time and study better."
Sounds professional enough, doesn't it? If only it worked more often.
Quote from: mahagonny on November 07, 2022, 03:39:15 PM
Mahag: Your midterm grade is "D." (Explains what needs improvement)
Female student who always dresses with minimal covering of flesh: "Is there any way I can end up with a B in this course?"
Mahag: "Yes. Starting coming class on time and study better."
Sounds professional enough, doesn't it? If only it worked more often.
There are [X many] points available in the course. To earn a B, you would need [Y of X] points. I suggest you focus on [the final exam/your presentation/creating a complete portfolio]
OR
There are [X many] points available in the course. It is not mathematically possible for you to earn a B.
Stu asks two questions in a row about an assignment (which I have used multiple times) that are addressed in the instructions and that I explained in class. Stu is still very confused. I was likewise very confused by several of Stu's answers on the midterm. I suspect that Stu's reading comprehension is barely at the 6th grade level.
Student cannot figure out how to calculate their grade. It is in the syllabus. I went over it in a video posted to the LMS. I discussed on the class announcement board. I discussed it in person in class. These are future medical professionals in graduate school.
Sigh...
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 07, 2022, 07:04:18 PM
There are [X many] points available in the course. To earn a B, you would need [Y of X] points. I suggest you focus on [the final exam/your presentation/creating a complete portfolio]
OR
There are [X many] points available in the course. It is not mathematically possible for you to earn a B.
[/b]
Ah, yes--we're in Week 12, and I actually wrote up a form letter with the above for my (10-person) F2F Comp II class later today. Several fall in that bolded category, with several more nearly there. Only one is guaranteed a C, and could bring it up to a B.
I've had this situation before, and it makes the final few weeks pure hell: the ones who remain really don't need a lot of help, so we just put in time and chug along to the end; most of those who remain and who could get Cs often just flake out after the LDW and end up with a D or F.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on November 08, 2022, 05:18:08 AM
Student cannot figure out how to calculate their grade. It is in the syllabus. I went over it in a video posted to the LMS. I discussed on the class announcement board. I discussed it in person in class. These are future medical professionals in graduate school.
Sigh...
This always makes me despair, because it's really not that hard. And it's one of the few basic math skills that
is commonly used outside the high school classroom. Which, for them, was just a couple of years ago. Sigh.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 08, 2022, 07:21:31 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on November 08, 2022, 05:18:08 AM
Student cannot figure out how to calculate their grade. It is in the syllabus. I went over it in a video posted to the LMS. I discussed on the class announcement board. I discussed it in person in class. These are future medical professionals in graduate school.
Sigh...
This always makes me despair, because it's really not that hard. And it's one of the few basic math skills that is commonly used outside the high school classroom. Which, for them, was just a couple of years ago. Sigh.
I wonder if it's as much of a
math issue as an
*autonomy issue; they often prefer getting someone in authority to tell them something explicitly rather than rely on their own ability to follow the prescribed procedure, whether there's math involved or not. It doesn't seem so much like laziness as a lack of understanding of the point of learning to do something themselves. I put it down to growing up with Google, so they expect "the answer" to any question is something
someone else already knows, so them having to figure it out is just hoop-jumping. The idea that there's
any question that they themselves would have to investigate in order to answer is incomprehensible.
* or perhaps "agency"
Week 12 of the semester and I have had to point out to 3 students in a lab section of 24 that they confused radius and diameter.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 08, 2022, 08:25:44 AM
I wonder if it's as much of a math issue as an *autonomy issue; they often prefer getting someone in authority to tell them something explicitly rather than rely on their own ability to follow the prescribed procedure, whether there's math involved or not.
Actually... yeah, that's probably right.
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 08, 2022, 08:25:44 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 08, 2022, 07:21:31 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on November 08, 2022, 05:18:08 AM
Student cannot figure out how to calculate their grade. It is in the syllabus. I went over it in a video posted to the LMS. I discussed on the class announcement board. I discussed it in person in class. These are future medical professionals in graduate school.
Sigh...
This always makes me despair, because it's really not that hard. And it's one of the few basic math skills that is commonly used outside the high school classroom. Which, for them, was just a couple of years ago. Sigh.
I wonder if it's as much of a math issue as an *autonomy issue; they often prefer getting someone in authority to tell them something explicitly rather than rely on their own ability to follow the prescribed procedure, whether there's math involved or not. It doesn't seem so much like laziness as a lack of understanding of the point of learning to do something themselves. I put it down to growing up with Google, so they expect "the answer" to any question is something someone else already knows, so them having to figure it out is just hoop-jumping. The idea that there's any question that they themselves would have to investigate in order to answer is incomprehensible.
* or perhaps "agency"
I think I get what you're talking about here. There seems to be so little understanding that education is not about finding "the" answer so much as learning to synthesize knowledge to produce one's own answers. It's hardly a new problem, but growing up with the magic answer machine at one's fingertips surely tends to reinforce this way of thinking.
There's also very little creativity on display. Students who are so disposed can use their digital tools to create all sorts of clever mash-ups between existing pop culture images and video/audio clips. But not so much their own original content. It's not a bad place to start trying to be creative, but it's only a start. I'm not sure how far some of them realize that.
It makes me think sometimes of a young woman with developmental disabilities that we sometimes see here at the library. She loves to do coloring sheets. She describes herself as an "artist" because she colors stuff in. Of course we're not mean enough to correct her on that. But I do get the impression that a lot of other youths are under a similar delusion regarding some of the mash-ups and fan fiction they create.
Quote from: apl68 on November 08, 2022, 10:48:31 AM
I think I get what you're talking about here. There seems to be so little understanding that education is not about finding "the" answer so much as learning to synthesize knowledge to produce one's own answers. It's hardly a new problem, but growing up with the magic answer machine at one's fingertips surely tends to reinforce this way of thinking.
As with everything else, XKCD (https://xkcd.com/2682/) has something to say about the types of things that we assume are already known, and the types of things that are hard to find out.
Quote from: apl68 on November 08, 2022, 10:48:31 AM
I think I get what you're talking about here. There seems to be so little understanding that education is not about finding "the" answer so much as learning to synthesize knowledge to produce one's own answers. It's hardly a new problem, but growing up with the magic answer machine at one's fingertips surely tends to reinforce this way of thinking.
There's also very little creativity on display. Students who are so disposed can use their digital tools to create all sorts of clever mash-ups between existing pop culture images and video/audio clips. But not so much their own original content. It's not a bad place to start trying to be creative, but it's only a start. I'm not sure how far some of them realize that.
It makes me think sometimes of a young woman with developmental disabilities that we sometimes see here at the library. She loves to do coloring sheets. She describes herself as an "artist" because she colors stuff in. Of course we're not mean enough to correct her on that. But I do get the impression that a lot of other youths are under a similar delusion regarding some of the mash-ups and fan fiction they create.
In addition to the things you mention, they've grown up in a world with endless remakes of movies, TV shows, etc. so that they rarely see anything actually
new, compared to even a few decades ago. (And even some that don't seem like remakes are adaptations of things from other countries, and so on.)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 08, 2022, 10:29:11 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 08, 2022, 08:25:44 AM
I wonder if it's as much of a math issue as an *autonomy issue; they often prefer getting someone in authority to tell them something explicitly rather than rely on their own ability to follow the prescribed procedure, whether there's math involved or not.
Actually... yeah, that's probably right.
My bet is on a combination of lack of autonomy + wishful denial.
If you don't know your grade, then you don't know you are failing. Plus, there is the eternal hope and magical thinking that they will pass no matter what: extra credit? Rounding? Lowering cutoffs for letter grades? Begging?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 08, 2022, 12:24:59 PM
My bet is on a combination of lack of autonomy + wishful denial.
If you don't know your grade, then you don't know you are failing.
Would that be something like Schrodinger's grade?
I have a classic this semester: "Since everyone in this class is failing, not just me, you must be a horrible instructor." Hmmm...odd that someone in your section also had the highest grade on the exam, one of the best grades I've ever had on that test.
Quote from: Stockmann on November 06, 2022, 06:22:12 PM
Yeah, that's particularly headbanging-worthy, Parasaurolophus.
In other quiz-related shenanigans, a student nearly handed in his quiz with no name on it. Apparently he handed in the previous with no name, either. The quiz before that? Didn't take it. Somehow I'm not very optimistic about his chances of passing...
A good student in my class has forgotten to write his name on two quizzes so far this term. The first time, I was able to figure out whose score was missing when I entered the grades in the spreadsheet. The second time, I recognized the handwriting and just filled in the name right away.
Why would you do that for him/her? If they don't know they are doing it, they'll never change.
+1
They're teaching you "learned helpfulness."
M.
Ugh, I have so many absent students. Some are for medical or other emergency (COVID isolation, hospitalized, injured in car crash). Others need to learn what is meant by the word "emergency". Sleeping in, maybe being exposed to someone who might have COVID, and needing to study for an exam in another class are not "emergencies". Go. To. Class.
Or take the 0 and call it a fair trade for a lesson learned.
I hear you geneticist, This is the week for the excuse emails that have the generic phrase "I've been struggling". Usually couples with some plan to turn things in over a week late. They keep hoping that by having is generic struggle email, I won't apply the late penalty. They keep being disappointed in that regard.
Stu wants to go over exam, says multiple choice questions were "so confusing" and she remembers me saying something different in class than the right answer. We spend a long time talking about study strategies (she's not using good ones), she is cagy about my question about studying from notes, so I ask outright if she is taking notes. No, she is not. I think we have a diagnosis then. She is a sophomore. BANG BANG BANG.
Quote from: mythbuster on November 09, 2022, 08:17:23 AM
I hear you geneticist, This is the week for the excuse emails that have the generic phrase "I've been struggling".
"Welcome to life."
Quote from: mythbuster on November 09, 2022, 08:17:23 AM
I hear you geneticist, This is the week for the excuse emails that have the generic phrase "I've been struggling". Usually couples with some plan to turn things in over a week late. They keep hoping that by having is generic struggle email, I won't apply the late penalty. They keep being disappointed in that regard.
We are the crushers of dreams, you and I.
Quote from: Biologist_ on November 08, 2022, 01:47:30 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on November 06, 2022, 06:22:12 PM
Yeah, that's particularly headbanging-worthy, Parasaurolophus.
In other quiz-related shenanigans, a student nearly handed in his quiz with no name on it. Apparently he handed in the previous with no name, either. The quiz before that? Didn't take it. Somehow I'm not very optimistic about his chances of passing...
A good student in my class has forgotten to write his name on two quizzes so far this term. The first time, I was able to figure out whose score was missing when I entered the grades in the spreadsheet. The second time, I recognized the handwriting and just filled in the name right away.
Hmmm... to my surprise, he actually got a perfect score on the quiz he did submit with no name. In any case, with over 50 students in this section, I can't be playing Sherlock Holmes with students who don't put their names on stuff. I made an announcement that in the future quizzes with no name will not be graded.
In other developments, several students are complaining about the upcoming exam's date and time, that they have a clash with work, etc. The date and time have been in the syllabus since day 1. I don't set the time, etc, the Chair does. For various reasons, it can't really be changed unless there's some force majeure situation. For those that don't take it, the final will replace it. I'm not looking forward to the likely situation of students complaining that they can't take the final and they didn't take this exam.
Quote from: Stockmann on November 09, 2022, 10:39:30 AM
Quote from: Biologist_ on November 08, 2022, 01:47:30 PM
Quote from: Stockmann on November 06, 2022, 06:22:12 PM
Yeah, that's particularly headbanging-worthy, Parasaurolophus.
In other quiz-related shenanigans, a student nearly handed in his quiz with no name on it. Apparently he handed in the previous with no name, either. The quiz before that? Didn't take it. Somehow I'm not very optimistic about his chances of passing...
A good student in my class has forgotten to write his name on two quizzes so far this term. The first time, I was able to figure out whose score was missing when I entered the grades in the spreadsheet. The second time, I recognized the handwriting and just filled in the name right away.
Hmmm... to my surprise, he actually got a perfect score on the quiz he did submit with no name. In any case, with over 50 students in this section, I can't be playing Sherlock Holmes with students who don't put their names on stuff. I made an announcement that in the future quizzes with no name will not be graded.
In other developments, several students are complaining about the upcoming exam's date and time, that they have a clash with work, etc. The date and time have been in the syllabus since day 1. I don't set the time, etc, the Chair does. For various reasons, it can't really be changed unless there's some force majeure situation. For those that don't take it, the final will replace it. I'm not looking forward to the likely situation of students complaining that they can't take the final and they didn't take this exam.
For quizzes in larger classes, I often make the last question, "What is your first and last name?" Not proud of it, but it works.
Quote from: FishProf on November 09, 2022, 03:39:54 AM
Why would you do that for him/her? If they don't know they are doing it, they'll never change.
I did write the name in red pen. When I handed the quiz back, the student said something like "Oh no! I did it again?" loudly enough that nearby students laughed.
Quote from: Biologist_ on November 09, 2022, 12:50:40 PM
Quote from: FishProf on November 09, 2022, 03:39:54 AM
Why would you do that for him/her? If they don't know they are doing it, they'll never change.
I did write the name in red pen. When I handed the quiz back, the student said something like "Oh no! I did it again?" loudly enough that nearby students laughed.
Perhaps the power of the dreaded red pen will be a sufficient prod.
I double-checked, and Stu managed to score 0 correct out of 10 multiple-choice questions. Congratulations on beating the odds!
Quote from: Anon1787 on November 10, 2022, 09:52:31 PM
I double-checked, and Stu managed to score 0 correct out of 10 multiple-choice questions. Congratulations on beating the odds!
Stu could monetize this. Send Stu's answer choices to other people (for a fee); it allows them to eliminate one possibility for each question, raising their odds significantly. If only Stu can be consistent, there's money to be made!
Dear student,
No matter how much you would like it to, your accommodation letter does not say: Student does not have to follow assignments instructions.
Students, I warned you that if you email me with a question about your project that is answered in the project guidelines, scoring rubric, or other materials that I would reply "read [thing I gave you]".
Saying "But we are CONFUSED about [thing that is on the top of the page]. Do we need to do [thing that is listed as a required task on the top of the page]"
I sent back a screenshot with the [thing] highlighted saying "Yes, you are required to do [thing]"
If the same student writes back again, I'm going to cc their team and say "please talk".
Sorry for the double-post.
But WOW did I get a doozy of a question:
"Do we have to include all of the data? But what if they don't support our hypothesis? Can we ignore those?"
Fantasy answer: WHAT?!?! NO! That's the opposite of how we do science!
Real answer: You need to include and analyze all of the data that are relevant to your question.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 15, 2022, 03:13:52 PM
Sorry for the double-post.
But WOW did I get a doozy of a question:
"Do we have to include all of the data? But what if they don't support our hypothesis? Can we ignore those?"
Fantasy answer: WHAT?!?! NO! That's the opposite of how we do science!
Real answer: You need to include and analyze all of the data that are relevant to your question.
Holy p-hacking! I would have given the fantasy answer, though in a bit of a different tone.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 15, 2022, 03:13:52 PM
Sorry for the double-post.
But WOW did I get a doozy of a question:
"Do we have to include all of the data? But what if they don't support our hypothesis? Can we ignore those?"
Fantasy answer: WHAT?!?! NO! That's the opposite of how we do science!
Real answer: You need to include and analyze all of the data that are relevant to your question.
Does anyone beside me imagine Stu deciding that data that don't support their hypothesis are therefore
not relevant to their question?
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 15, 2022, 06:17:36 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 15, 2022, 03:13:52 PM
Sorry for the double-post.
But WOW did I get a doozy of a question:
"Do we have to include all of the data? But what if they don't support our hypothesis? Can we ignore those?"
Fantasy answer: WHAT?!?! NO! That's the opposite of how we do science!
Real answer: You need to include and analyze all of the data that are relevant to your question.
Does anyone beside me imagine Stu deciding that data that don't support their hypothesis are therefore not relevant to their question?
I'd bet folding money that they already think that is the case, and the way.
Quote from: FishProf on November 15, 2022, 06:24:16 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on November 15, 2022, 06:17:36 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 15, 2022, 03:13:52 PM
Sorry for the double-post.
But WOW did I get a doozy of a question:
"Do we have to include all of the data? But what if they don't support our hypothesis? Can we ignore those?"
Fantasy answer: WHAT?!?! NO! That's the opposite of how we do science!
Real answer: You need to include and analyze all of the data that are relevant to your question.
Does anyone beside me imagine Stu deciding that data that don't support their hypothesis are therefore not relevant to their question?
I'd bet folding money that they already think that is the case, and the way.
I'm sure that's exactly what they think. They won't know which data are supportive or not until they complete the analysis. But they are so wanting to be "right" they want to remove data after. Nope. Just nope.
Tell him to pass on a career in STEM and go to law school instead.
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 15, 2022, 07:57:29 PM
Tell him to pass on a career in STEM and go to law school instead.
In the US at least, evren proscutors are required to turn over to the defense any exculpatory evidence they find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exculpatory_evidence
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 16, 2022, 06:17:00 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 15, 2022, 07:57:29 PM
Tell him to pass on a career in STEM and go to law school instead.
In the US at least, even proscutors are required to turn over to the defense any exculpatory evidence they find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exculpatory_evidence
But defense lawyers are not so limited. Picking and choosing what "facts" to present is very much the essence of presenting a case. (Actually, sales and/or marketing would also be a good choice for this student, for the same reason.)
Quote from: mbelvadi on November 16, 2022, 06:17:00 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 15, 2022, 07:57:29 PM
Tell him to pass on a career in STEM and go to law school instead.
In the US at least, evren proscutors are required to turn over to the defense any exculpatory evidence they find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exculpatory_evidence
It's called disclosure, you dickhead! (https://youtu.be/uaoymfY9Kw0?t=52)
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 15, 2022, 07:57:29 PM
Tell him to pass on a career in STEM and go to law school instead.
Given the P-hacking scandals of recent years, a career in STEM might still not be out of the question.
I've got a new one for suspicious last minute requests to take an exam later than scheduled. "My cat gave me worms". I suspect this one is friends with the girl who claimed at the last exam to have diarrhea and offer to wear an adult diaper to take the exam. That student was in lab later the same day as the exam in tight leggings, I was told.
Ewww, it's technically possible to get worms from a pet. Rare, but possible. Treat like any other medical reason and ask for a medical note stating when they can return to class.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on November 06, 2022, 03:52:31 PM
One of the essay topics I gave in my intro ethics class (they're timed and randomly assigned) was about how an ethics professor should handle a case of plagiarism.
At least one student plagiarized their answer.
Yikes! I TAed and ethics class last year and am TAing it this year again. The course is a graduate level course. I continue to be amazed by master's students who don't read directions.
I've talked til I'm blue in the face trying to convince a student she should drop my class. (It's her third go-round--once with someone else, and twice with me; she just flakes and doesn't turn in work, and the stuff she does submit is junior-high level work.) She stayed in Teams and talked with me for 20 minutes today--the LDW--and isn't going to drop, even after I crunched the numbers and said, three separate times just today, "It is mathematically impossible for you to pass."
It's no skin off my nose, as it were, but dammit--if you aren't going to listen to me or do what I say after YOU ask my advice. . . . . ????
Sounds like she needs the course to keep her student loans active...
M.
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 18, 2022, 12:38:59 PM
I've talked til I'm blue in the face trying to convince a student she should drop my class. (It's her third go-round--once with someone else, and twice with me; she just flakes and doesn't turn in work, and the stuff she does submit is junior-high level work.) She stayed in Teams and talked with me for 20 minutes today--the LDW--and isn't going to drop, even after I crunched the numbers and said, three separate times just today, "It is mathematically impossible for you to pass."
It's no skin off my nose, as it were, but dammit--if you aren't going to listen to me or do what I say after YOU ask my advice. . . . . ????
Sorry you're dealing with this ALH. I can relate. I have an older student who hasn't turned in much of anything and wants to turn in things from September. I have told this student many, many times to turn things in (on time and not months late because then it doesn't count!), but my words have fallen on deaf ears. I guess it probably would have helped if this student didn't miss over half the labs and lectures.
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 18, 2022, 12:38:59 PM
I've talked til I'm blue in the face trying to convince a student she should drop my class. (It's her third go-round--once with someone else, and twice with me; she just flakes and doesn't turn in work, and the stuff she does submit is junior-high level work.) She stayed in Teams and talked with me for 20 minutes today--the LDW--and isn't going to drop, even after I crunched the numbers and said, three separate times just today, "It is mathematically impossible for you to pass."
It's no skin off my nose, as it were, but dammit--if you aren't going to listen to me or do what I say after YOU ask my advice. . . . . ????
Ugh. We have limits on how many times a student can attempt each course. But the "drop after taking your finals" during COVID messed that up. You can repeat once if you earned a failing grade. But if you just drop, you can take it again. And again. And again.
Yes, but repeated fails or course drops would not be good enough to keep student loan accessibility afloat, would they?
Student has reached out because he "won't be around during final exam week", and wants to take the final early. Family has purchased tickets to [Distant Country].
The written final (from a different professor) will already be online, so not an issue.
The in-person, physical items-in-front-of-you practical exam will not.
Student asks if he can take it early. Nope.
I consider moving the practical final to the last week of classes to give him a break (i.e Dec. 7/8). Oh no, he's travelling on the 6th.
So now he's demanding to know "What I expect him to do".
I expect you to finish the semester by being here, until after your last final exam.
If not, I expect you to suffer the consequences of you choice.
Maybe I should say THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbkI0dc2iRg)
Are other people seeing this?-- I think I'm seeing the consequences of pandemic schooling on this crop of first and second year-- there seems to be about a quarter of them that never learned how to study for an actual, closed-materials in-class exam.
They are just bombing the exams in my class, in a way I've never seen before. I even have a study strategies video and resources on the CMS for them, but of course this group of students is not using those, even after their first failed exam.
They seem much more helpless than previous classes-- often leaving answers entirely blank rather than attempting anything, and quite a few didn't even do the extra credit (make up a question you wish I had asked and then answer it-- so everyone should be able to come up with something!).
I do offer the opportunity to take a "second chance exam" during finals to replace one of the earlier grades, so I suspect on this past one some of them decided not to study and just count on taking the second chance exam, but that's a pretty bad plan since now they will have to study for 2/3 rather than 1/3 of the course material along with all their other finals.
Quote from: FishProf on November 19, 2022, 05:27:32 AM
Student has reached out because he "won't be around during final exam week", and wants to take the final early. Family has purchased tickets to [Distant Country].
The written final (from a different professor) will already be online, so not an issue.
The in-person, physical items-in-front-of-you practical exam will not.
Student asks if he can take it early. Nope.
I consider moving the practical final to the last week of classes to give him a break (i.e Dec. 7/8). Oh no, he's travelling on the 6th.
So now he's demanding to know "What I expect him to do".
I expect you to finish the semester by being here, until after your last final exam.
If not, I expect you to suffer the consequences of you choice.
Maybe I should say THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbkI0dc2iRg)
Kick this up up the chain of command and contact their academic advisor.
I have a student who asked to take their final early (no need, it's online), then to be gone the last two weeks plus finals, and is now saying they are in the hospital. I offered an Incomplete if they show me documentation. I got a huge email with lots of "but I need to pass, you are crushing my med school dreams, etc.", but nothing to verify their medical emergency. I have a feeling Stu will be repeating this class.
Quote from: Puget on November 19, 2022, 06:46:10 AM
Are other people seeing this?-- I think I'm seeing the consequences of pandemic schooling on this crop of first and second year-- there seems to be about a quarter of them that never learned how to study for an actual, closed-materials in-class exam.
...
I'm seeing it in my first-years this year. They're doing as poorly, or worse than those I had last fall, who I had wrongly assumed would be the "worst" of the post-Covid students because the students this fall at least had some normal(ish) time in the classroom their senior year of high school. I've left the theory exams open book (to see if it makes a difference in overall exam scores, it hasn't so far). There are some true/false and multiple choice questions on basic terms and definitions that we use in lab every week, things they could easily look up in the text if they haven't memorized the answer, and they still miss them. They also do poorly on the problem solving portions, things that replicate what we have been doing in lab. I give them hints on how to study, how to link the theory from lecture to the practice in lab and they seem to retain very little. I give them the information about our campus learning resource center that is staffed with people who can help them learn how to study better, very few of them go (we get reports if they go and mention they are studying for a particular class). I think this semester I will hit a record for the number of students who drop, fail, or withdraw completely. There's only so much I can do to help them if they won't help themselves.
Quote from: FishProf on November 19, 2022, 05:27:32 AM
Student has reached out because he "won't be around during final exam week", and wants to take the final early. Family has purchased tickets to [Distant Country].
The written final (from a different professor) will already be online, so not an issue.
The in-person, physical items-in-front-of-you practical exam will not.
Student asks if he can take it early. Nope.
I consider moving the practical final to the last week of classes to give him a break (i.e Dec. 7/8). Oh no, he's travelling on the 6th.
So now he's demanding to know "What I expect him to do".
I expect you to finish the semester by being here, until after your last final exam.
If not, I expect you to suffer the consequences of you choice.
Maybe I should say THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbkI0dc2iRg)
I've been getting something similar with students saying they're "going to be out of town and won't have internet access." When I point out that every coffee shop, local library, and McDonald's in the country, and across most of the world, has internet access, I always get this weird, blank stare and a sigh--like I'm the one who doesn't understand something. If they persist, I'll point out that they don't appear to have a functional plan for success in the course, but my astute observation doesn't seem to have much of an affect on them, alas.
Quote from: Puget on November 19, 2022, 06:46:10 AM
Are other people seeing this?-- I think I'm seeing the consequences of pandemic schooling on this crop of first and second year-- there seems to be about a quarter of them that never learned how to study for an actual, closed-materials in-class exam.
Colleague teaching a
grad class ran into this problem this semester unexpectedly. Colleague decided to give a closed-materials, written (paper/pencil) exam, and the students freaked out b/c all of their exams had been online/open everything or they had taken classes with papers/projects/presentations. Ours is an applied grad program, so it it not that unusual for a class not to have a traditional closed-materials exam at the graduate level, but colleague had not expected this level of anxiety/unpreparedness (particularly at the grad level). Colleague (who is exponentially nicer than I am) added a review session in class in which students practiced answering the types of questions that would be on the exam. Everyone settled down and did well.
Quote from: Puget on November 19, 2022, 06:46:10 AM
Are other people seeing this?-- I think I'm seeing the consequences of pandemic schooling on this crop of first and second year-- there seems to be about a quarter of them that never learned how to study for an actual, closed-materials in-class exam.
They are just bombing the exams in my class, in a way I've never seen before. I even have a study strategies video and resources on the CMS for them, but of course this group of students is not using those, even after their first failed exam.
They seem much more helpless than previous classes-- often leaving answers entirely blank rather than attempting anything, and quite a few didn't even do the extra credit (make up a question you wish I had asked and then answer it-- so everyone should be able to come up with something!).
I do offer the opportunity to take a "second chance exam" during finals to replace one of the earlier grades, so I suspect on this past one some of them decided not to study and just count on taking the second chance exam, but that's a pretty bad plan since now they will have to study for 2/3 rather than 1/3 of the course material along with all their other finals.
In my experience these past two years, at root is an ongoing tug-of-war over the class format. The course catalog may state that the class is in-person, but many of my students think that I will offer them substitute online assignments with different due dates for any reason whatsoever. We need to hold the line and make it clear that in-person is in-person and online is online.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on November 20, 2022, 05:46:20 AM
In my experience these past two years, at root is an ongoing tug-of-war over the class format. The course catalog may state that the class is in-person, but many of my students think that I will offer them substitute online assignments with different due dates for any reason whatsoever. We need to hold the line and make it clear that in-person is in-person and online is online.
+1 to this.
Quote from: Larimar on November 20, 2022, 06:12:46 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on November 20, 2022, 05:46:20 AM
In my experience these past two years, at root is an ongoing tug-of-war over the class format. The course catalog may state that the class is in-person, but many of my students think that I will offer them substitute online assignments with different due dates for any reason whatsoever. We need to hold the line and make it clear that in-person is in-person and online is online.
+1 to this.
Yes. Where is the petition to sign?
Quote from: Larimar on November 20, 2022, 06:12:46 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on November 20, 2022, 05:46:20 AM
In my experience these past two years, at root is an ongoing tug-of-war over the class format. The course catalog may state that the class is in-person, but many of my students think that I will offer them substitute online assignments with different due dates for any reason whatsoever. We need to hold the line and make it clear that in-person is in-person and online is online.
+1 to this.
I find it fascinating the different cultures of student bodies in this discussion. In my case, students are so overwhelmingly "in-person" that many of them would rather take a makeup quiz in my office than an "alternative assignment." Even for students who have been sick. I try to be flexible, especially during the flu/mono months, and my policy is students who miss due to illness can submit alternative assignment if they miss any in-class graded activities (all my quizzes are unannounced). This term I got "can I come to your office when I'm better and take a makeup in person?"
I'm buried under overdue feedback for student projects and student writing and feeling April-levels of fatigue and it's only Fall. I've been teaching a long time and none of my usual tricks are working. Probably because I'm older and tenured now and the urgency is not as motivating as it used to be. Please post survival tips.
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 20, 2022, 01:48:45 PM
I'm buried under overdue feedback for student projects and student writing and feeling April-levels of fatigue and it's only Fall. I've been teaching a long time and none of my usual tricks are working. Probably because I'm older and tenured now and the urgency is not as motivating as it used to be. Please post survival tips.
Caffeine, chocolate and comics.
Simple rubrics for scoring (Excellent, Good, Poor).
Write a list of common feedback and give a decoder list (e.g. C = missing citation) rather than writing long comments.
I have a Word document that lists all of my common comments. Then I just cut and paste them onto the documents. I use this together with a rubric I created in the Canvas speed grader. It greatly speeds things up.
Quote from: mythbuster on November 20, 2022, 07:28:08 PM
I have a Word document that lists all of my common comments. Then I just cut and paste them onto the documents. I use this together with a rubric I created in the Canvas speed grader. It greatly speeds things up.
I do this as well. It helps quite a bit!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 20, 2022, 07:35:39 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on November 20, 2022, 07:28:08 PM
I have a Word document that lists all of my common comments. Then I just cut and paste them onto the documents. I use this together with a rubric I created in the Canvas speed grader. It greatly speeds things up.
I do this as well. It helps quite a bit!
I also give them a checklist, one for each of the assignments. The checklist includes content as well as formatting rubrics.
Speedgrader is your friend! I hope your institution uses Canvas.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 20, 2022, 02:31:18 PM
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 20, 2022, 01:48:45 PM
I'm buried under overdue feedback for student projects and student writing and feeling April-levels of fatigue and it's only Fall. I've been teaching a long time and none of my usual tricks are working. Probably because I'm older and tenured now and the urgency is not as motivating as it used to be. Please post survival tips.
Caffeine, chocolate and comics.
Manga or western? Just curious.
There is also the if needed by sheer desperation "grade until it matters".
Stop when either the student has earned their A and more points don't matter OR there is no way the student can score higher than the C or B no matter how many more points they earn. Put in a letter grade instead of a point score. If it's mathematically impossible for a student to earn a passing grade, don't score at all.
This assumes no one gets their assignments back.
The last assignment of the semester never gets feedback from me. If they want feedback, they can make an appointment after finals are over. I think I've had ONE student ever make and actually show for that appointment.
I finally reached critical mass on the number of students emailing me to tell me they are missing class today that I felt compelled to cancel. I just couldn't run the activity I had planned with less than half of them gone. Which is too bad because it was supposed to be fun. But we'll do it when they come back next week and they'll just have less project work time. Which they probably weren't going to use much anyway.
Quote from: Istiblennius on November 21, 2022, 02:17:06 PM
I finally reached critical mass on the number of students emailing me to tell me they are missing class today that I felt compelled to cancel. I just couldn't run the activity I had planned with less than half of them gone. Which is too bad because it was supposed to be fun. But we'll do it when they come back next week and they'll just have less project work time. Which they probably weren't going to use much anyway.
Wow. Maybe I'm mean, but I'd give a small bonus assignment just for the students who showed up. Leaving early for vacation =/= a valid reason to be absent.
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 21, 2022, 02:20:56 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on November 21, 2022, 02:17:06 PM
I finally reached critical mass on the number of students emailing me to tell me they are missing class today that I felt compelled to cancel. I just couldn't run the activity I had planned with less than half of them gone. Which is too bad because it was supposed to be fun. But we'll do it when they come back next week and they'll just have less project work time. Which they probably weren't going to use much anyway.
Wow. Maybe I'm mean, but I'd give a small bonus assignment just for the students who showed up. Leaving early for vacation =/= a valid reason to be absent.
You are not mean. I am (today, at least) tired and a little spineless. I could have managed with the smaller group but it just wasn't going to be as easy for me either. And I thought "why should I have to suffer dragging less than half the class through an activity that won't go the way I planned it?" Because at this point having class was going to be harder and more work on me than it was going to be on any of the students. So maybe it is a victory in that I didn't go in on a sunk cost fallacy? I don't know.
Triage and do what you need to do to get through the week. No shame in changing plans.
Stu: I didn't know we had class yesterday because my other class was cancelled.
My fantasy reply: uh...even though the course calendar clearly states we have class and we ended class last week with preparation for the activity for yesterday?
My actual reply: Not a safe assumption. I'd strongly recommend you refer to each individual course syllabus/calendar unless there's a university-wide closure.
(At least this one contacted me. I only had about 1/4 of the class in the room yesterday. The activity, that I'd spent a lot of time prepping, only sorta worked. Dang short week before Thanksgiving break.)
Quote from: statsgeek on November 23, 2022, 06:29:44 AM
Stu: I didn't know we had class yesterday because my other class was cancelled.
My fantasy reply: uh...even though the course calendar clearly states we have class and we ended class last week with preparation for the activity for yesterday?
My actual reply: Not a safe assumption. I'd strongly recommend you refer to each individual course syllabus/calendar unless there's a university-wide closure.
(At least this one contacted me. I only had about 1/4 of the class in the room yesterday. The activity, that I'd spent a lot of time prepping, only sorta worked. Dang short week before Thanksgiving break.)
I don't remember there being such wholesale absences in the days before holidays back in the 1990s. There doesn't seem to have been such a widespread assumption that the last days before the break could be treated as additional break time.
Isn't the day before Spring Break "Mid-Term Exam Day"?
It is for me...
I heard a quotation many years ago, attributed to some source within the British admiralty:
"Don't schedule meetings on Wednesdays; it spoils both weekends."
My fantasy reply to the "but my other class is cancelled" is "that's because your other professor is lazy. How about instead of complaining to me, you complain to them about not giving you your money's worth?"
Although there are all kinds of reasons why classes get cancelled, I do share a group of students with a chronic course canceller and that person is pretty dang lazy.
Quote from: Istiblennius on November 23, 2022, 01:44:35 PM
My fantasy reply to the "but my other class is cancelled" is "that's because your other professor is lazy. How about instead of complaining to me, you complain to them about not giving you your money's worth?"
Although there are all kinds of reasons why classes get cancelled, I do share a group of students with a chronic course canceller and that person is pretty dang lazy.
Higher education is the only product where the consumer tries to get as little out of it as possible.
QuoteHello professor [misspelled], I was wondering about how we are supposed to cite the articles from the syllabus for the essay as they are in a PDF fromat.
Thank you.
I can't even today.
After releasing the midterm 2 grades on Canvas today, I received an email asking if I was curving the grades (answer: no) as the student felt that her score was unexpectedly high.
I added the points again and she did receive the correct score.
That's it - no despair but an unexpected exchange.
We have 10d remaining in the semester, and 16 of 23 students in my online course are currently failing, 10 of which have not done ANY assignments in one of the 3 categories.
Quote from: FishProf on November 28, 2022, 07:37:49 AM
We have 10d remaining in the semester, and 16 of 23 students in my online course are currently failing, 10 of which have not done ANY assignments in one of the 3 categories.
Sounds like several of my classes, FishProf.
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 28, 2022, 08:45:59 AM
Quote from: FishProf on November 28, 2022, 07:37:49 AM
We have 10d remaining in the semester, and 16 of 23 students in my online course are currently failing, 10 of which have not done ANY assignments in one of the 3 categories.
Sounds like several of my classes, FishProf.
Daaaang! And I thought I had it bad with some of my students. Well, I still do :) with some of them. They are totally fixated on not believing that they are failing. All I can do is deliver the grades that they earn at this point.
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 21, 2022, 04:22:21 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 20, 2022, 07:35:39 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on November 20, 2022, 07:28:08 PM
I have a Word document that lists all of my common comments. Then I just cut and paste them onto the documents. I use this together with a rubric I created in the Canvas speed grader. It greatly speeds things up.
I do this as well. It helps quite a bit!
I also give them a checklist, one for each of the assignments. The checklist includes content as well as formatting rubrics.
Speedgrader is your friend! I hope your institution uses Canvas.
Thanks everyone for your replies. We do have Canvas and speedgrader. We're mostly friends. I'm using a comments library doc for cut and paste. If anyone could freeze time that would be super great!
This morning I had my first "your final is the only one I have, can I take it early?" request of the semester. My answer, of course, was no and I added, "Just be thankful your final is on Tuesday morning, not Friday afternoon because my answer would still be no." His reply... "It doesn't hurt to ask." My fantasy reply was, "Yes, it does hurt to ask," but in reality I just shook my head and turned to the next student with a question.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 29, 2022, 09:40:31 AM
This morning I had my first "your final is the only one I have, can I take it early?" request of the semester. My answer, of course, was no and I added, "Just be thankful your final is on Tuesday morning, not Friday afternoon because my answer would still be no." His reply... "It doesn't hurt to ask." My fantasy reply was, "Yes, it does hurt to ask," but in reality I just shook my head and turned to the next student with a question.
The parents who teach their kids this fail to realize how, to everyone
else, it just makes their kid come off as an entitled jackass.
Student, you know who you are, STOP asking me for things when you know the answer is no.
Will I post MORE practice problems? no
Will I give you ANOTHER practice exam? no
Will I pre-grade your final presentation? no
Will I meet with you to "go through" your slides? no
Just no. You have plenty of resources to succeed! Use the posted practice problems, previous exam, scoring rubric, and presentation guidelines. Watch the videos! Read the lab manual! Talk with your peers! I cannot upload learning directly into your brain.
PS I can tell that you have never bothered to use the ones already posted. Why would I give you more resources if you're just going to ignore what you already have?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 29, 2022, 12:08:54 PM
Student, you know who you are, STOP asking me for things when you know the answer is no.
Will I post MORE practice problems? no
Will I give you ANOTHER practice exam? no
Will I pre-grade your final presentation? no
Will I meet with you to "go through" your slides? no
Just no. You have plenty of resources to succeed! Use the posted practice problems, previous exam, scoring rubric, and presentation guidelines. Watch the videos! Read the lab manual! Talk with your peers! I cannot upload learning directly into your brain.
PS I can tell that you have never bothered to use the ones already posted. Why would I give you more resources if you're just going to ignore what you already have?
^^ This!!! ^^
I swear, I have to wonder if I'm being punished for sins in a past life with this Astronomy class. Stu asks if we have class next week. I replied that we do- it's in the syllabus (and I've only been saying this every fricking day in the past 2 weeks that next Monday is the last day of class and that the final is on Wednesday). Stu asks if it's mandatory. Hmm. I mention that our final exam is next week on Wednesday. Stu asks AGAIN if we 'have' to come to class on Monday and Wednesday. At this point, I'm getting a little pissed off and annoyed so I mention something like 'well, it's up to you if you come to class or do anything in life, but we still have a final exam next week.' Stu asks if the final exam is online. At this point I want to just leave. This student has annoyed the crap out of me all semester (doesn't do work, has a bazillion excuses, leaves early, comes to class late). I doubt this student has even looked at the syllabus. Just so damn annoying.
I suppose I need to practice giving more curt responses to ridiculous questions.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 30, 2022, 10:12:54 AM
I swear, I have to wonder if I'm being punished for sins in a past life with this Astronomy class. Stu asks if we have class next week. I replied that we do- it's in the syllabus (and I've only been saying this every fricking day in the past 2 weeks that next Monday is the last day of class and that the final is on Wednesday). Stu asks if it's mandatory. Hmm. I mention that our final exam is next week on Wednesday. Stu asks AGAIN if we 'have' to come to class on Monday and Wednesday. At this point, I'm getting a little pissed off and annoyed so I mention something like 'well, it's up to you if you come to class or do anything in life, but we still have a final exam next week.' Stu asks if the final exam is online. At this point I want to just leave. This student has annoyed the crap out of me all semester (doesn't do work, has a bazillion excuses, leaves early, comes to class late). I doubt this student has even looked at the syllabus. Just so damn annoying.
I suppose I need to practice giving more curt responses to ridiculous questions.
Or practice the art of the one word answer:
No
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 30, 2022, 11:41:13 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on November 30, 2022, 10:12:54 AM
I swear, I have to wonder if I'm being punished for sins in a past life with this Astronomy class. Stu asks if we have class next week. I replied that we do- it's in the syllabus (and I've only been saying this every fricking day in the past 2 weeks that next Monday is the last day of class and that the final is on Wednesday). Stu asks if it's mandatory. Hmm. I mention that our final exam is next week on Wednesday. Stu asks AGAIN if we 'have' to come to class on Monday and Wednesday. At this point, I'm getting a little pissed off and annoyed so I mention something like 'well, it's up to you if you come to class or do anything in life, but we still have a final exam next week.' Stu asks if the final exam is online. At this point I want to just leave. This student has annoyed the crap out of me all semester (doesn't do work, has a bazillion excuses, leaves early, comes to class late). I doubt this student has even looked at the syllabus. Just so damn annoying.
I suppose I need to practice giving more curt responses to ridiculous questions.
Or practice the art of the one word answer:
No
Yep. I have some really tenacious kids and they don't seem to hear it. I'll have to practice it more loudly.
Just had a class where we discussed the format of the final and we had a long discussion about why this class isn't too hard. One student insists that if she is getting a C, the class is too hard. She even said that if the class average is a C, then that means the class is too hard.
She was NOT Happy when I explained that an A had to be earned, and mere attendance wasn't sufficient.
Today I defined "satire" for a student. On one hand, despair that satire was an unfamiliar word to a college student. On the other hand, I'll count it as gratitude that a student trusted me enough to say they don't know what the word means and I got to explain it and show them The Onion.
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 30, 2022, 09:39:25 PM
Today I defined "satire" for a student. On one hand, despair that satire was an unfamiliar word to a college student. On the other hand, I'll count it as gratitude that a student trusted me enough to say they don't know what the word means and I got to explain it and show them The Onion.
I think they've grown up with so much overt moral outrage (or just angry snark) that the idea of any
appearance of agreement with or sympathy for an idea they don't agree with is anathema. The concept that such an approach could actually
support their argument in a *witty way blows their minds. (Well, also the idea that anyone who doesn't already agree with them could be persuaded to do so, rather than obviously being totally irredeemable.)
(*Of course, part of the moral outrage mindset is that there is absolutely, positively no room for anything remotely like humour in any discussion of any Really Important Issue(TM).)
Quote from: teach_write_research on November 30, 2022, 09:39:25 PM
Today I defined "satire" for a student. On one hand, despair that satire was an unfamiliar word to a college student. On the other hand, I'll count it as gratitude that a student trusted me enough to say they don't know what the word means and I got to explain it and show them The Onion.
Pretty sad, all right. Marshwiggle puts his finger on part of the problem. But congratulations for taking advantage of a teachable moment!
I have come to the conclusion that the extreme earnestness we see is because all the Parents are Gen Xer's. It's rebellion against having parents who bought into slacker snide cynicism. I know I have to tone down my Gen X tendencies at times with my students.
Quote from: mythbuster on December 01, 2022, 10:49:20 AM
I have come to the conclusion that the extreme earnestness we see is because all the Parents are Gen Xer's. It's rebellion against having parents who bought into slacker snide cynicism. I know I have to tone down my Gen X tendencies at times with my students.
That's pretty serious karma for the Gen Xers; having kids who believe everything with absolute conviction, and see every choice as vital. As a younger Boomer, I think I mostly saw the battles of an earlier era as important, but pretty much complete, and the issues now are about fine tuning policies, etc. My cynicism seems to be under control.
The same student who asked if stu needed to come to the final exam just sent me an email with a completed study guide because stu thinks that it's graded. I don't even grade them (it's in the syllabus). Stu also emailed me a prelab as a Notepad file because stu doesn't have acrobat or Word! Note that I only accept prelabs online through the D2L system (again- ALL of this information is in the syllabus). And the kicker is that this student already turned in this prelab!
When I say that this student is clueless- I am not exaggerating.
Student with a 50% in the class met with me today. Wants to talk about the assignment they are supposed to have been working on all semester (LOTS of reminders) that was originally due today but I extended to Monday. Starts out by saying he isn't sure what to do. I ask what part of the instructions isn't clear to him? Oh, he hasn't read the instructions yet. BANG BANG BANG.
I feel a bit bad because this student has some learning disabilities and accommodations, but he has literally done nothing to help himself all semester and is in complete denial about how badly he is doing.
So sorry about that, Puget. I have had this happen a couple of times. I feel bad for students with learning challenges, but I think regular classroom accommodations are not enough to fill the gap.
The student likely has deficits in executive functioning, making it very difficult for them to make a plan and carry it out. This should not be on you to address.
Does your University have a student support office? The student should have been receiving their help all along, but at least you can connect them now. It will be too late for this semester but may help them in the future.
Of course, they might be an entitled grub on top of that.
I would reply to them with a cc to their advisor, (a) reminding them that the Instructions had been available all through the semester, (b) they should read the Instructions before meeting you or asking for help, and you can clarify only specific points that are not clear to them post-reading the Instructions.
I am sure they will flake out, then you can email them back, cc the advisor and the student support office, and hopefully someone will follow up with the student. You can email the advisor and student support separately and describe the student's accommodations and their lack of engagement through the semester, and that something is clearly not working.
If they do come and meet you, you can point out what they need to do to turn in the assignment, and not extend the deadline further because it's already been extended. After that just record their grade.
But that will be all that you can realistically do at this point. At least there will be an email trail that someone tried to help them. For some students, it takes a few iterations to get through college.
Quote from: poiuy on December 02, 2022, 02:48:33 PM
So sorry about that, Puget. I have had this happen a couple of times. I feel bad for students with learning challenges, but I think regular classroom accommodations are not enough to fill the gap.
The student likely has deficits in executive functioning, making it very difficult for them to make a plan and carry it out. This should not be on you to address.
Does your University have a student support office? The student should have been receiving their help all along, but at least you can connect them now. It will be too late for this semester but may help them in the future.
Of course, they might be an entitled grub on top of that.
I would reply to them with a cc to their advisor, (a) reminding them that the Instructions had been available all through the semester, (b) they should read the Instructions before meeting you or asking for help, and you can clarify only specific points that are not clear to them post-reading the Instructions.
I am sure they will flake out, then you can email them back, cc the advisor and the student support office, and hopefully someone will follow up with the student. You can email the advisor and student support separately and describe the student's accommodations and their lack of engagement through the semester, and that something is clearly not working.
If they do come and meet you, you can point out what they need to do to turn in the assignment, and not extend the deadline further because it's already been extended. After that just record their grade.
But that will be all that you can realistically do at this point. At least there will be an email trail that someone tried to help them. For some students, it takes a few iterations to get through college.
Oh, believe me, student is connected to support services and I've done all that and more (we even met with the student's father with the students consent/request -- dad is a prof in another department here, and totally understanding about the limits of what accommodations can do). Student support services person (who is lovely and extremely reasonable) is exploring with the advising office whether a late drop with medical under-load may still be possible. We discussed that earlier but student did not want to take that path at the time. Ultimately college (at least this college) may just not be for him, sadly.
(My area of research happens to be executive function and how it is linked to various disorders, and this is also not my first rodeo, so I'm quite versed in all this--not trying to be snarky-- no way you would have known that. But it was just a head bang, not something I needed advice on).
Glad that the dad is supportive. Not that you require/need their support, but that's worlds better than fending off furious parents.
I have a student that NEVER attended lab demanding to know how they failed the class when it also has a lecture. If 30% of your grade is from lab, it's not mathematically possible to pass the class if you earn 0 points in lab.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 06:21:30 PM
I have a student that NEVER attended lab demanding to know how they failed the class when it also has a lecture. If 30% of your grade is from lab, it's not mathematically possible to pass the class if you earn 0 points in lab.
Ugh. It's nearly impossible to explain to students who can't do math why they failed a course. And the lost looks on their faces can be heart-wrenching at times . . . and infuriating at times. Sometimes at the same time. Ugh.
Quote from: fishbrains on December 03, 2022, 10:04:15 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 06:21:30 PM
I have a student that NEVER attended lab demanding to know how they failed the class when it also has a lecture. If 30% of your grade is from lab, it's not mathematically possible to pass the class if you earn 0 points in lab.
Ugh. It's nearly impossible to explain to students who can't do math why they failed a course. And the lost looks on their faces can be heart-wrenching at times . . . and infuriating at times. Sometimes at the same time. Ugh.
This one was entitled. The lab was "too much time" so it must be optional. The student thought this was a negotiation.
"What can I do for you to pass me?"
I told Stu the course will be offered again in Spring.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 04, 2022, 07:36:21 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on December 03, 2022, 10:04:15 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 06:21:30 PM
I have a student that NEVER attended lab demanding to know how they failed the class when it also has a lecture. If 30% of your grade is from lab, it's not mathematically possible to pass the class if you earn 0 points in lab.
Ugh. It's nearly impossible to explain to students who can't do math why they failed a course. And the lost looks on their faces can be heart-wrenching at times . . . and infuriating at times. Sometimes at the same time. Ugh.
This one was entitled. The lab was "too much time" so it must be optional. The student thought this was a negotiation.
"What can I do for you to pass me?"
I told Stu the course will be offered again in Spring.
Double ugh. Time traveling is just not a service we can offer any more.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 04, 2022, 07:36:21 AM
Quote from: fishbrains on December 03, 2022, 10:04:15 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 02, 2022, 06:21:30 PM
I have a student that NEVER attended lab demanding to know how they failed the class when it also has a lecture. If 30% of your grade is from lab, it's not mathematically possible to pass the class if you earn 0 points in lab.
Ugh. It's nearly impossible to explain to students who can't do math why they failed a course. And the lost looks on their faces can be heart-wrenching at times . . . and infuriating at times. Sometimes at the same time. Ugh.
This one was entitled. The lab was "too much time" so it must be optional. The student thought this was a negotiation.
"What can I do for you to pass me?"
I told Stu the course will be offered again in Spring.
One of my problem students (who currently has less than a 30% in the class) has been asking me this all semester. Fantasy response: Maybe if you turned in the work you were supposed to do in the first place, then you wouldn't be asking me for 'extra credit' work.
As students settle in to take the final exam today, one student (whose essay grade finally raised her above failing) said "hey Mr Rat, you better not fuck me over with this exam, now that I'm passing."
Other students were shocked but I said "how you perform on this exam is up to you." I know these kids are stressed right now but dang really?
Quote from: RatGuy on December 05, 2022, 12:27:38 PM
As students settle in to take the final exam today, one student (whose essay grade finally raised her above failing) said "hey Mr Rat, you better not fuck me over with this exam, now that I'm passing."
Other students were shocked but I said "how you perform on this exam is up to you." I know these kids are stressed right now but dang really?
Wow, I'd be reporting that to student conduct.
Quote from: Puget on December 05, 2022, 12:33:44 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 05, 2022, 12:27:38 PM
As students settle in to take the final exam today, one student (whose essay grade finally raised her above failing) said "hey Mr Rat, you better not fuck me over with this exam, now that I'm passing."
Other students were shocked but I said "how you perform on this exam is up to you." I know these kids are stressed right now but dang really?
Wow, I'd be reporting that to student conduct.
Yeah, I mentioned it to the chair afterwards, in case there's an escalation. But our student conduct procedure is pretty toothless, unless its physical or sexual assault.
Quote from: RatGuy on December 05, 2022, 01:31:43 PM
Quote from: Puget on December 05, 2022, 12:33:44 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on December 05, 2022, 12:27:38 PM
As students settle in to take the final exam today, one student (whose essay grade finally raised her above failing) said "hey Mr Rat, you better not fuck me over with this exam, now that I'm passing."
Other students were shocked but I said "how you perform on this exam is up to you." I know these kids are stressed right now but dang really?
Wow, I'd be reporting that to student conduct.
Yeah, I mentioned it to the chair afterwards, in case there's an escalation. But our student conduct procedure is pretty toothless, unless its physical or sexual assault.
Agreed. Wow!
One of my problem students, who isn't passing and doesn't listen to me when I say things like 'You need to come to lab and turn in work', wanted to know if stu should come to the final on Wednesday.
Um, yes? Well, it's up to you if you want to be there. Why did this student ask me this? This is the student who does not hear me when I say the final exam is in PERSON. Stu STILL thinks it's online. Banging my damn head.
And in the online classes: They have a final exam due tonight. Guess how many of them took it?- about 30%. They are waiting until the ultimate last minute to do this which I find very annoying because I know that if they have issues, then they will complain to me and I'll have to be the 'bad guy' and say, 'Well, there are no make ups.' I'd like to say a lot worse, but I'm trying to be good. ;)
I got an email from a student saying they "just saw my email about not taking the final" and wondering if it's too late to do anything.
I didn't email Stu about not taking the Final last week (two other students, yes. This student, no).
In fact, Stu isn't even in my class.
Stu isn't in any of the other [Intro to Baskets] classes either.
Stu is apparently just NOW realizing they didn't take the final in their [Intro to Baskets] in SPRING 2022.
Apparently "email me ASAP" = about six or so months later.
Yeah, it's too late to do anything now.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 05, 2022, 03:34:01 PM
I got an email from a student saying they "just saw my email about not taking the final" and wondering if it's too late to do anything.
I didn't email Stu about not taking the Final last week (two other students, yes. This student, no).
In fact, Stu isn't even in my class.
Stu isn't in any of the other [Intro to Baskets] classes either.
Stu is apparently just NOW realizing they didn't take the final in their [Intro to Baskets] in SPRING 2022.
Apparently "email me ASAP" = about six or so months later.
Yeah, it's too late to do anything now.
Now, that's impressive... Dang!
One of my students, who on the plus side actually seeks help (on the minus side, stood me up last time he made an appointment), has asked me, twice now, if he's somehow exempt from the final, because another instructor, in another department, teaching a different course, is exempting those who are doing OK from the final. This student isn't doing well in my course and in fact failed the latest exam - it's worse than him not figuring our different courses have different rules, even if the final were only for those doing badly, then it definitely would be for him. I basically regurgitated what's on the syllabus about how grades are calculated for this course - it's not even hard, half their grade is their quiz average, half is the exam average, including the final.
ETA: He's failed half the quizzes, too. I have no idea where he gets the idea he might be exempt from the final, since extrapolating from his performance, at most he'll manage a C in the course and he has a high risk of failing.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 05, 2022, 03:34:01 PM
I got an email from a student saying they "just saw my email about not taking the final" and wondering if it's too late to do anything.
I didn't email Stu about not taking the Final last week (two other students, yes. This student, no).
In fact, Stu isn't even in my class.
Stu isn't in any of the other [Intro to Baskets] classes either.
Stu is apparently just NOW realizing they didn't take the final in their [Intro to Baskets] in SPRING 2022.
Apparently "email me ASAP" = about six or so months later.
Yeah, it's too late to do anything now.
Why is it that I continue having nightmares about doing things like this (One just a couple of nights ago), even though I haven't been in school in years, and never actually pulled anything like this when I was?
It's the week before finals and I have the people who are suddenly concerned about their grades. The worst was the person last week that, not getting the extra points they were begging for, started rapid-firing questions at me and accusing me of embarrassing them. Such a "fun" time of year.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 06, 2022, 06:20:26 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 05, 2022, 03:34:01 PM
I got an email from a student saying they "just saw my email about not taking the final" and wondering if it's too late to do anything.
I didn't email Stu about not taking the Final last week (two other students, yes. This student, no).
In fact, Stu isn't even in my class.
Stu isn't in any of the other [Intro to Baskets] classes either.
Stu is apparently just NOW realizing they didn't take the final in their [Intro to Baskets] in SPRING 2022.
Apparently "email me ASAP" = about six or so months later.
Yeah, it's too late to do anything now.
Now, that's impressive... Dang!
Accreditation standards in my discipline require a variety of co-curricular activities that students document on a website. Faculty get emails informing us that we have X students who need to have their co-curriculars assessed and our evaluations of such posted. This is a big waste of everybody's time and shows how bat shit crazy our accrediting body is. But..... it's required.
I put off doing this as long as possible. So at one point, I was cleaning out my email inbox when I stumbled across an
old one of those "you have co-curriculars to assess". At which point I went into the web site and found my assigned work.
Only to find that the students I had to evaluate had graduated the previous semester. It's not just students who occasionally need access to a time machine.
Quote from: apl68 on December 06, 2022, 07:31:27 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 05, 2022, 03:34:01 PM
I got an email from a student saying they "just saw my email about not taking the final" and wondering if it's too late to do anything.
I didn't email Stu about not taking the Final last week (two other students, yes. This student, no).
In fact, Stu isn't even in my class.
Stu isn't in any of the other [Intro to Baskets] classes either.
Stu is apparently just NOW realizing they didn't take the final in their [Intro to Baskets] in SPRING 2022.
Apparently "email me ASAP" = about six or so months later.
Yeah, it's too late to do anything now.
Why is it that I continue having nightmares about doing things like this (One just a couple of nights ago), even though I haven't been in school in years, and never actually pulled anything like this when I was?
I used to have those dreams too! Now they have morphed into a version where I'm trying to teach, but I can't write on the board/my students keep leaving/I can't find the supplies.
What's particularly impressive for this student is that they SHOULD have noticed their failure when they were dropped from the next course in the series when grades were reported to the Registrar. Grades were posted in June. Stu could have repeated the course in Summer. Or in Fall.
Stu is now 2 quarters behind on finishing the [Intro to Baskets] courses they need for their major. I'm glad I'm not their academic advisor.
Yesterday I drove all the way to campus in dense fog, feeling relatively rotten with a sinus headache, to teach my Comp II class that's down to just 6 students remaining. I was already grumpy because only one of them had turned in the rough draft due Saturday night in Canvas--and that one only submitted one paragraph of an assigned 1500 words.
I went to class at 11:00. ONE student showed up long enough to tell me she wasn't going to be in class and then left.
Students are learning the hard way that I can use the LMS logs to check whether or not they "submitted the assignment and something went wrong". It's hard to submit the assignment when you haven't logged in during the week you claim you submitted.
For the essay component in my students' final projects, I have them a list of six texts and asked them to respond to two of them. A surprising number have chosen something else to write about. As if I wouldn't notice.
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 07, 2022, 09:09:48 AM
Students are learning the hard way that I can use the LMS logs to check whether or not they "submitted the assignment and something went wrong". It's hard to submit the assignment when you haven't logged in during the week you claim you submitted.
Yes, I have a student who has missed multiple classes recently who emailed to insist that they were keeping up with everything in blackboard, they last logged in November 5th...
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on December 07, 2022, 12:22:17 PM
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 07, 2022, 09:09:48 AM
Students are learning the hard way that I can use the LMS logs to check whether or not they "submitted the assignment and something went wrong". It's hard to submit the assignment when you haven't logged in during the week you claim you submitted.
Yes, I have a student who has missed multiple classes recently who emailed to insist that they were keeping up with everything in blackboard, they last logged in November 5th...
One of the few things I like about having most materials online is the fact that I can EASILY check if/when students submitted their work.
FIVE minutes after I entered final exam grades (not final grades), one of my failing students emailed me demanding to know stu's final grade, etc. I had to bite my tongue and politely respond with my usual 'I'm not done yet' email.
Quote from: Istiblennius on December 07, 2022, 09:09:48 AM
Students are learning the hard way that I can use the LMS logs to check whether or not they "submitted the assignment and something went wrong". It's hard to submit the assignment when you haven't logged in during the week you claim you submitted.
"Wait a minute--you have to log into the LMS to submit the assignment? So that's why it kept failing to go through!"
One student couldn't submit his essay on the LMS, and sent me a corrupted file (mmhmm).
He also sent me screenshots showing that the problem he's having is he hasn't accepted Turnitin's EULA. He's at the screen and doesn't know how to proceed forward (i.e. hit 'accept').
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 08, 2022, 07:16:42 AM
One student couldn't submit his essay on the LMS, and sent me a corrupted file (mmhmm).
He also sent me screenshots showing that the problem he's having is he hasn't accepted Turnitin's EULA. He's at the screen and doesn't know how to proceed forward (i.e. hit 'accept').
I've had students submit "corrupted files" before-- somehow when I give them a chance to submit a readable file they tend to never respond. . .
The week before TGiving break, I gave my students a choice - Do Lectures XYZ, OR Listen to Audiobook Q and take quizzes on the chapters.
They unanimously chose the audio book.
Now they are complaining that questions about the book are on the End-Term exam and that they didn't have time to read it.
The why did you CHOOSE that?
Reply to "Corrupted files" - And THIS is why the syllabus says you have to upload to the CMS and then CHECK that your file went through. Also, this is why PDF.
Quote from: FishProf on December 08, 2022, 08:07:25 AM
Reply to "Corrupted files" - And THIS is why the syllabus says you have to upload to the CMS and then CHECK that your file went through. Also, this is why PDF.
I have someone who regularly submitted blank PDF files. Looks like a new note will be going in the submission instructions. I also have people who submit a separate PDF for each page, which is a bit of a pain to work with, but at least it's readable. That previously was the cause of a note in the instructions.
Quote from: dr_evil on December 08, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
That previously was the cause of a note in the instructions.
This sort of thing is the genesis of ~60% of my syllabus. Every year there seems to be a new "I can't believe I have to WRITE THIS DOWN" rule.
Quote from: FishProf on December 08, 2022, 09:37:43 AM
Quote from: dr_evil on December 08, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
That previously was the cause of a note in the instructions.
This sort of thing is the genesis of ~60% of my syllabus. Every year there seems to be a new "I can't believe I have to WRITE THIS DOWN" rule.
I had to add in "WEARING your safety goggles & lab coat". Why? Students would have their goggles with them, but not on their face. Or they would have their lab coat in their bag.
Seriously!?!
It's not a protective talisman.
Quote from: Puget on December 08, 2022, 08:07:13 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 08, 2022, 07:16:42 AM
One student couldn't submit his essay on the LMS, and sent me a corrupted file (mmhmm).
He also sent me screenshots showing that the problem he's having is he hasn't accepted Turnitin's EULA. He's at the screen and doesn't know how to proceed forward (i.e. hit 'accept').
I've had students submit "corrupted files" before-- somehow when I give them a chance to submit a readable file they tend to never respond. . .
Students who are trying to run cons rarely have the follow through to pull them off. Obviously, the students are probably planning to use the time between when they submit and you open the file to actually finish the assignment. But, if they had that kind of discipline, they probably would have just finished it on time in the first place, or asked for an extension. As it is, they probably just spend the extra time they had coming up with other weird cons or trying to cheat in other classes.
I'm grading annotated bibliographies, and they keep getting worse and worse. (No, an article from a site trying to sell you product X doesn't count as a "news article about product X." And the plagiarism, let's not forget about the plagiarism.)
I just realized I'm grading these in the order that students signed up to give their final presentations. Of course the ones who chose to present in the last possible slots also didn't put as much time into their bibliographies. No wonder the quality is tanking.
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 08, 2022, 11:22:33 AM
I just realized I'm grading these in the order that students signed up to give their final presentations. Of course the ones who chose to present in the last possible slots also didn't put as much time into their bibliographies. No wonder the quality is tanking.
Same things happen with lab sections that are later in the week. Because during registration they show up later, the keeners normally sign up earliest, and for the first sections they see. As those fill up, the ones with spaces left are later. So the procrastinators wind up in those.
And if sections get
added, because of over-enrollment, "abandon hope all ye who enter here".
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
And if sections get added, because of over-enrollment, "abandon hope all ye who enter here".
Oh no, don't say that! My spring version of this same course was added late.
There are threats to increase everyone's course caps. I hope it'll alleviate pressure enough that students who don't want to be in my class can shuffle around, but I'm not optimistic.
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 08, 2022, 12:22:36 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
And if sections get added, because of over-enrollment, "abandon hope all ye who enter here".
Oh no, don't say that! My spring version of this same course was added late.
There are threats to increase everyone's course caps. I hope it'll alleviate pressure enough that students who don't want to be in my class can shuffle around, but I'm not optimistic.
The perfect storm of awfulness is when a section is added late AND it's in the evening. No one wants to be on campus that late to teach or to learn.
The last minute lab we added was honestly the "barrel scrapings" of repeaters and procrastinators.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 08, 2022, 03:14:36 PM
The perfect storm of awfulness is when a section is added late AND it's in the evening. No one wants to be on campus that late to teach or to learn.
I used to regularly teach once a week 2.5 hour evening courses. It was always a slog, but when I was in my early and mid 30s, I could manage. Two years ago, I did one after a few years off. It was just brutal. My brain just doesn't work after 7 anymore.
8:30 am classes and Friday labs select for the best of the best, and the worst of the worst.
The best, b/c they care about the class more than the time, and the worst b/c that Ii often where a few seats remain.
Marshwiggle is more right than I'd care to admit.
My preferred lab day and time was always Tuesday morning. Tuesday so the Monday TAs worked out the kinks, and morning so you didn't have any slackers with you. I had a core group of "lab buddies" who are all now medical/scientific professionals in lab with me.
Panicking end of of semester grade grubber. NO, turning in the optional revisions on an assignment 56 days late will not improve your grade. Please see the 10% per day late penalty in the syllabus. Technically, you owe me points!
How in the world did you conclude that a Due Date of 8Dec22 meant the 22nd of December, which is AFTER the final is due (on 21Dec22)? What did you think the 8 meant?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 08, 2022, 07:16:42 AM
One student couldn't submit his essay on the LMS, and sent me a corrupted file (mmhmm).
He also sent me screenshots showing that the problem he's having is he hasn't accepted Turnitin's EULA. He's at the screen and doesn't know how to proceed forward (i.e. hit 'accept').
Problem solved after a few more false starts. He was trying to submit via his phone. (Is his essay even on his phone? I doubt it...)
Graduate students who can't follow assignment instructions. Bang, bang, bang. The assignment says to use this framework. The framework is discussed multiple times in class. The framework is in the syllabus, the assignment instructions, and the rubric. So why on Earth did you think it was acceptable to use a different framework for your paper? Honestly, as the graduate (master and PhD level) you should know better! I get the ongoing pandemic is challenging. That's why this is an online course with weekly assignments to keep you on track. I guess you just ignored everything related to the assignment? Having TAed for this course before, this is new. I never had a student try to use a different framework before (students who do poorly typically use the framework incorrectly, but don't use an entirely different framework).
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 08, 2022, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 08, 2022, 12:22:36 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 08, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
And if sections get added, because of over-enrollment, "abandon hope all ye who enter here".
Oh no, don't say that! My spring version of this same course was added late.
There are threats to increase everyone's course caps. I hope it'll alleviate pressure enough that students who don't want to be in my class can shuffle around, but I'm not optimistic.
The perfect storm of awfulness is when a section is added late AND it's in the evening. No one wants to be on campus that late to teach or to learn.
The last minute lab we added was honestly the "barrel scrapings" of repeaters and procrastinators.
I had a late-added, second-8 weeks online Comp I section this spring. It worked out about as badly as I'd expected: 25 were registered, but 11 were immediately administratively dropped for non-participation in the first 10 days. I'm down to 9 still registered, with 3 of those not turning a thing in since about Halloween, so F's; there will be 1 solid B, maybe two C's, and the other 3 D's. I hate these sections--but Admin adds them and is going to pay somebody to teach them, I might as well teach them. The grading load is usually light, at least.
I've argued for years that our un/der-prepared students need more than the 16 weeks, yet Admin sees those $$$ and constantly insists on 12- and 8-week sections to accommodate those who can't get their @*$( together to register on time. Gee, I wonder why those same students flame out (by and large) in those shorter sections? Someone should do a study--or just ask any faculty member. Pfft.
(The other idiotic thing they do is have advisors talk to students who aren't participating in 16-week classes during the first month do section changes into these later-starting sections. Why,
of course they'll piss away the first month of school, then magically turn into motivated students with excellent time management in that new section!)
I hear ya' ALH. Same thing at my place. If you have $, then you can take whatever the hell you want. They were even putting kids in my courses who did not have the proper Math prerequisites. Yes, the College makes money, but it hurts students who are not prepared.
One other problem we've run into with these eight week, second half of the semester classes at my CC is that either a full-timer has to teach them as an overload or we have to hire the Worst Adjunct Ever because all the good ones have already been assigned classes.
Fun times.
Is it just me, or have various threads here in recent weeks demonstrated that many more *graduate students* have begun to act like, and show the abilities, of young undergrads?
For various reasons I taught graduate seminars for many years and then had about an eight-year break. As I prepared to start graduate seminars again, I was warned that "graduate students are different now." And hoo boy was that true. In the before times, you laid out the reading for the week, they read it all (I am not one of those people who gives out more reading than can be done reasonably), had thoughts about it, and you all gathered around a table and talked about it for three hours. They were keen, they came prepared, they had plenty to say.
When I started up again in 2019, things had changed drastically. Some of them hadn't even done the reading! What are you in graduate school for, if you're not interested in the reading? They all sat there like bumps on a log. I consulted my colleagues. They confirmed that now we have to prime the pump. I now assign each student an article to "specialize in" every week. I pre-assign someone as the leader of the week's discussion. We change topics and modes every 45 minutes. We have in-class exercises such as I do with undergraduates. It's still like pulling teeth to get them to take initiative. Maybe it's just our place. But it's a depressing development.
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 10, 2022, 08:21:21 PM
Is it just me, or have various threads here in recent weeks demonstrated that many more *graduate students* have begun to act like, and show the abilities, of young undergrads?
Just as college has become the new high school, grad school is now becoming equivalent to undergraduate study.
I wish I could say this to the student who needs to pass my class, hmm, maybe I will, but in nicer terminology:
"You failed every single test (except for 1 D) AND the final exam- what grade did you think you would get???"
So a student contacted me to say that he had tried doing the (latest?) quizzes online and hadn't been able to. I replied that the quizzes are in-person only. This is an official f2f course section - not a hyflex, hybrid or mixed section. There is one online section for this course, but I'm not teaching it.
I really don't think I was this clueless in middle school.
[Student]: Hi. There is something wrong with my grade on blackboard. The grading criteria says that everything is weighed evenly, yet I scored an average of above 80 on the lectures and the video quizzes but a 72 on the reading quizzes and it dragged my average down 10 points. It should be a 77-78 if they are actually worth the same amount. On blackboard it says lectures, videos, readings, and the test are all 25%. I'm very confused. Thank you for your help.
What I wrote:
Hi [Student],
As the announcements say, the grade is calculated AS IF you got a 60% on the final. If you do better than that, your average will rise. If you do worse, you don't pass.
Fishprof
What I Thought:
All semester the gradebook has been showing your grade AS IF you got a 60% on the final. How is it you are just noticing now?
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 10, 2022, 08:21:21 PM
Is it just me, or have various threads here in recent weeks demonstrated that many more *graduate students* have begun to act like, and show the abilities, of young undergrads?
Both last year and this year I've had masters students who apparently can't / won't / don't read assignment instructions or watch the videos about how to approach the assignments. PhD students (I'm a PhD candidate but TA for a course with both masters and PhD students) seem no different since I've been TAing this course.
So, I'm checking some of the videos from my online exams and notice that one kid is sitting there in his underwear. What the hell? Do I need to include a statement that they need to wear appropriate clothing when taking exams? SMDH.
I have a student who is demanding the opportunity to make up a quiz that he missed b/c he was sick that day.
A quiz that was available for a week.
Please everyone, warn your elderly relatives-- finals season is very hazardous to the health of grandparents and other assorted "close family members". Yet somehow, when the I express my sympathies and provide instructions for requesting an excused absence from the advising office and taking the exam in January, and explain that no, taking it early or online is not an option, these relatives tend to rally. It really is mysterious.
I get the part about the reduction in maturity beginning to filter up to grad school, but I am also wondering whether there have been, for various reasons, an overall reduction of the standards for *admission* to grad school programs (and, of course, I am not even considering here fifth-rate programs that always took whomever, diploma mills, etc., but rather just considering regular grad programs, and even those at high standards or even elite schools?
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 12, 2022, 03:00:50 AM
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Wow! You've got to wonder what they're thinking.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 12, 2022, 05:32:31 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 12, 2022, 03:00:50 AM
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Wow! You've got to wonder what if they're thinking.
FTFY.
Final Exam is presentations on Wednesday. The current count is 4 of 11 students out with COVID.
But there is time for more to fall by the wayside.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 11, 2022, 09:52:21 AM
I wish I could say this to the student who needs to pass my class, hmm, maybe I will, but in nicer terminology:
"You failed every single test (except for 1 D) AND the final exam- what grade did you think you would get???"
A 4th-year major emailed a "but I need a C to keep my scholarship" request for bonus. I did tell her "you made a 64 on the midterm, you have a D+ quiz average, you made a 43 on the final exam, and you submitted your final essay a week late, resulting in a failing grade. None of that indicates C work in this course." She'll probably get a little snippy on RMP, but since our university evals are already closed, I think it's important that she be hit with the truth.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 12, 2022, 03:00:50 AM
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Pro tip: be ready to Google multiple passages (using direct quotes) from that paper. I get a couple of these every semester, and without fail, they end up submitting a mashup of verbatim plagiarism from multiple sources, all without documentation, of course.
I'm grading senior papers for a culminating experience in the major and the range is very wide. For the one I just finished I scraped the bottom of the feedback barrel to identify the strength as submitting the assignment on time. Massively lacking in content, ugh.
To be fair an additional strength is the student's honesty in submitting total crap and not plagiarizing. They get to revise and resubmit so there's a little spark of hope, but knowing the student it's more a dying ember.
Back in I go. Thanks for listening.
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 12, 2022, 08:41:12 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 12, 2022, 03:00:50 AM
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Pro tip: be ready to Google multiple passages (using direct quotes) from that paper. I get a couple of these every semester, and without fail, they end up submitting a mashup of verbatim plagiarism from multiple sources, all without documentation, of course.
Just graded one of those. Paper is garbage even with the plagiarism because it failed to include most of the required analysis. Now I must go through the reporting process. PITA.
Finished grading lab exams, posted the RAW scores on blackboard, and sent an announcement on how to read the grade book, how the current average is calculated, what is NOT included (participation, etc) and an admonition to NOT email to argue about scores yet, but instead to study for the final exam ~ 25% of final grade.
Elapsed time to first email arguing about scores....14 min
Fishprof. I now post my explanatory message about final grades one full hour BEFORE I actually open the grades. It at least forces them to read the announcement.
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
He likely did it so that the his last date attended was the end of the course. It's gaming the financial aid fraud cops.
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Quote from: mythbuster on December 13, 2022, 10:34:47 AM
He likely did it so that the his last date attended was the end of the course. It's gaming the financial aid fraud cops.
That is indeed most likely the case. I'm always tempted to pick last day of participation (any student who fails, we have to enter the last date of participation into our grading system) as the last date they did anything meaningful, showing up and putting little more than your name on an exam doesn't count in my book. And I've had a few cases of students who basically sat through class an entire semester and never actually did any classwork. They took exams but never did any lab work so passing was never going to happen. Oh well. There's always one or two. I just hope that they're wasting their own money, not taking out loans that my tax dollars will end up paying back.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 12, 2022, 06:29:00 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 12, 2022, 05:32:31 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 12, 2022, 03:00:50 AM
My freshman writing class chose their topics for their final projects on November 1st. The papers — 5-6 pages — are due today. One student emailed me last night to say he hasn't been able to make any progress on it, so can he change his topic? Sure, go ahead and research a whole new topic at the last minute. Whatever.
Wow! You've got to wonder what if they're thinking.
FTFY.
Ha!
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
For this kind of reason, I have a provision in my syllabi that students who who don't complete Y assignments, will get dropped from the class. My classes are online asynchronous, so physical attendance is not an issue, though course content views are visible.
If students haven't completed most assignments before the drop date, I send them a couple of warning emails, and if I don't hear back, they get dropped. That way, their GPA gets protected, their financial aid is less affected, though IDK what happens to their student loans.
Sometimes the ghost students don't even realize that they need to drop or know how to drop. Others just don't care and one has to wonder why they signed up for college in the first place.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 14, 2022, 06:50:27 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.
My ghost students very rarely show up to the last exam. I'll have people who attend very sporadically but do take exams throughout the semester, but the ones who are gone are generally gone.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
This is one source of resentment over student loan forgiveness programs.
Quote from: Caracal on December 14, 2022, 07:06:59 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 14, 2022, 06:50:27 AM
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.
My ghost students very rarely show up to the last exam. I'll have people who attend very sporadically but do take exams throughout the semester, but the ones who are gone are generally gone.
In our state, we have to submit "verification of attendance" reports around the end of the second week of classes. No-shows at this point are administratively dropped. After that, depending on the institution, students who continue to be absent can be withdrawn around the middle of the semester. We can withdraw students who have not attended/submitted any assignment during the course of three weeks or so unless they have compelling reasons for such absences. Needless to say, we are required to take attendance because we have to enter the last date attended when submitting reports/withdrawals.
Quote from: Zeus Bird on December 14, 2022, 06:37:43 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on December 13, 2022, 04:03:37 PM
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 13, 2022, 01:27:28 PM
Quote from: sinenomine on December 13, 2022, 11:23:15 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 13, 2022, 09:25:08 AM
Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.
I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.
Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?
Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail
Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category. Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance. I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters. In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.
Is there some sort of perverse symbiosis here where the
students want to stay "officially" registered for financial aid and the
administration wants to have the students "officially" registered for their funding, so it's in nobody's best interest to admit reality?
[/quote]
Is there some sort of perverse symbiosis here where the students want to stay "officially" registered for financial aid and the administration wants to have the students "officially" registered for their funding, so it's in nobody's best interest to admit reality?
[/quote]
This sounds like the most plausible explanation. It's the financial analogue to grade inflation, only with actual dollars that someone somewhere will pay for upfront or in the future.
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2022, 07:13:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.
What would make sense, and still be quite flexible, would be to drop people administratively if/when they reach a point where they cannot mathematically pass. That would work for just about any way of running a course as long as sufficient grades were finalized some time before the final exam.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
Depends on the institution. We have 18-week semesters and are asked to drop students by Week 14 "who are not actively participating in class." That W goes on their record and triggers a financial aid freeze/review.
If they hang on until after Week 14 then disappear we have the option of giving them an F, which is an honestly-earned tried-but-couldn't-do-it F, or an FW which is treated like a W.
12 students in a class of 45 scored 45% or less on the final exam. The low was a 29! This was the final exam where I told them to study their previous midterms and included MANY verbatim questions from said midterms.
Oy Vey- at least they are unlikely to be your nurse anytime in the future.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2022, 07:13:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.
I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.
Quote from: Caracal on December 15, 2022, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2022, 07:13:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.
I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.
Maybe I need to work at your place. Our admins expect us to keep up with this stuff and let our admin. assistants know so they can contact students who ghost, BUT we can't withdraw anyone.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2022, 02:27:17 PM
Quote from: Caracal on December 15, 2022, 01:39:51 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 15, 2022, 07:13:56 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 15, 2022, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on December 14, 2022, 09:23:31 PM
What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?
I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.
It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.
I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.
Maybe I need to work at your place. Our admins expect us to keep up with this stuff and let our admin. assistants know so they can contact students who ghost, BUT we can't withdraw anyone.
We are required to withdraw a student if they miss more than 12.5% of the course without progress or making any contact (so two weeks for our seated sections). There are, of course, issues with this but it did solve a lot of problems with students abusing financial aid...
I learned the hard way that recycling any substantial portion of a paper from a different course does not technically qualify as a violation of academic integrity at my university, so I now mention it explicitly in assignments.
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Wow. Just wow.
My "I decide to skip the final so I could study for [not this class]" student earned a C. I might have to revise my syllabus to include "you must pass the final to pass the class". But considering they BARELY earned that C (had an A before they made an epically bad choice), I might not need to bother.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 15, 2022, 04:31:06 PM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Wow. Just wow.
My "I decide to skip the final so I could study for [not this class]" student earned a C. I might have to revise my syllabus to include "you must pass the final to pass the class". But considering they BARELY earned that C (had an A before they made an epically bad choice), I might not need to bother.
At least part of the "Fail the final, fail the course" is a preemptive strike against students bailing 2/3 of the way through and coasting to a Pass.
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 16, 2022, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Scary.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 16, 2022, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Scary.
I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.
Quote from: lilyb on December 16, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 16, 2022, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Scary.
I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.
Learned helplessness? I've been seeing a lot of this over the past several years.
I'm amazed at the students who put tons of time into assignments worth 5% of their grade and totally blow off the one worth 20%, after which they're baffled by the effect on their course grade.
Quote from: Langue_doc on December 16, 2022, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: lilyb on December 16, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 16, 2022, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Scary.
I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.
Learned helplessness? I've been seeing a lot of this over the past several years.
That many students are math-illiterate is hardly surprising in the U.S. A large proportion of our nation's high school grads have simply been given a pass and shoved out the door to make way for the next batch. That students who've taken and passed advanced math classes in high school still can't do such basic stuff is disturbing. Surely students who took advanced math classes weren't just socially promoted?
Quote from: sinenomine on December 16, 2022, 09:56:00 AM
I'm amazed at the students who put tons of time into assignments worth 5% of their grade and totally blow off the one worth 20%, after which they're baffled by the effect on their course grade.
Guess they figure an assignment's an assignment, you only need to complete so many to pass, so why not do the easiest ones and avoid the hard ones?
Quote from: lilyb on December 16, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 07:29:06 AM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 16, 2022, 06:54:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on December 16, 2022, 06:47:05 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 15, 2022, 03:29:33 PM
I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.
My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.
So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a 27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.
She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.
Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!
True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off
Scary.
I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.
Yeah, this is just one of those mystifying things. Explanations I've come up with over the years
1. This is one of those things where we realize that we teach a lot of students who are very different than we were as undergrads. There reason I would calculate my grade is because I was usually trying to figure out how low a score I could get on the last exam or paper and still get an A. I wasn't doing this because I was trying to calibrate my effort, I just got anxious about these things at the end of the semester. It was pretty pointless, I was usually going to do well and get an A. (Weirdly, I didn't really do this with the classes where I might not get a good grade.) I think this is a pretty common sort of thing with people who end up becoming academics. Most of our students are better adjusted than this.
2. However, it used to be that if you really wanted to know exactly where you stood in a class this was what you had to do. Now, students have gone through high school and college with CMSs and so they take it as a given that they should always know exactly what their grade is. If that feature didn't exist, most of them would just settle for a vague idea of what their grade is. When you expect something to work in one way, it can be really frustrating if it doesn't, so they just get irritated about the idea that they'd have to calculate their grade.
3. It's one thing to have learned how to do something and another to actually remember and be able to apply it. I took five years of Spanish and I can't really conjugate a regular verb. I've retained more math, but that's probably because I was better at it than I was at languages.
Quote from: Caracal on December 16, 2022, 10:21:09 AM
2. However, it used to be that if you really wanted to know exactly where you stood in a class this was what you had to do. Now, students have gone through high school and college with CMSs and so they take it as a given that they should always know exactly what their grade is. If that feature didn't exist, most of them would just settle for a vague idea of what their grade is. When you expect something to work in one way, it can be really frustrating if it doesn't, so they just get irritated about the idea that they'd have to calculate their grade.
Might it also be a consequence of "grading on a curve", "extra credit", and so on so that it's rarely the case that a single calculation on raw grades gives everyones' final grades?
The more exceptions are considered, the more understandable that students won't consider a calculation meaningful.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 16, 2022, 09:56:00 AM
I'm amazed at the students who put tons of time into assignments worth 5% of their grade and totally blow off the one worth 20%, after which they're baffled by the effect on their course grade.
Yep.
I'm scoring presentations and students are losing points due to just not doing parts of it. But they will beg to be allowed to redo assignments that were graded weeks ago. Also no.
I think I'm going to have to redesign my online class yet again. It's a lower-level class that's optional for our majors but required for several other programs, so I get more than the usual number of students just checking off the requirement. I had to redo it this year to make it more "cheat-proof" (less reliance on exams). Now it's too "you get out of it what you put in" and about 1/3 of the class put in the bare minimum. The final reflection assignment that's usually a lot of fun to grade was a drag.
Announcement posted on 9Dec22:
"At the end of the day today, all the semester work will be NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE.
Tomorrow morning, the Final Exam will become available, until the EotD on 21Dec22."
Announcement Posted on 16Dec22:
"GRADES ARE POSTED BUT NOT SUBMITTED
Please review your grades as posted, AFTER you have taken the final.
Please email me if you see an ERROR, but not if you are just unhappy. I will submit the grades on 22Dec22."
Student email today at 10am:
"Professor,
I totally screwed up. I thought the final was due by the end of the day on the 22nd. Please consider giving me another chance to do it. I am so sorry. I really need to pass this class."
How do you screw that up?! Oh yeah, by waiting until the last day to do the work...
The Same Old story:
Our continuing ed department, in its infinitesimal wisdom, decided that a 9d wintersession was too short, so they made some changes.
1) All classes offered had to be online
2) The semester starts 27Dec22, not 2Jan23, and now ends on 16Jan23.
Consequences:
1) We don't offer any lab courses now, b/c our department decided online labs (only) were insufficient to meet the SLOs for the courses. That cost the school about $100k in lost revenue compared to previous years.
2a) The last day of the wintersession is on MLKJr day. So, the final exams are to be given on a day when the School is closed (State and Federal Holiday at a State School).
2b) Students have 18d to do a semester of work, but if they don't bother to check email until after the New Year (not unreasonable by most standards), they will have lost 1/3 of their time for doing the Non-Final Exam portion of the course. The 2nd is also AFTER the Add/Drop deadline, so students can't get in or out of the course if they follow the previous schedules.
2c) There haven't been any announcements of these new changes in any venue or at a time that would reach the casually observant. You have to know to look and students generally don't know. Often, neither do faculty.
2d) In previous years, about 40-45% of Wintersession enrollments happen AFTER the class starts, and 20% are on the ADD deadline. That will pass unnoticed this year, and continuing ed will lose more $$. Anecdotal data, but roughly 2/3 of my intersession classes each year are our own students, often late enrollees. This year, it is 20%.
I posted the syllabus, its quiz, and everything else for the course yesterday morning. 27 hours later, just 2 students have taken the syllabus quiz. This does not bode well.
Quote from: FishProf on December 28, 2022, 07:27:56 AM
The Same Old story:
Our continuing ed department, in its infinitesimal wisdom, decided that a 9d wintersession was too short, so they made some changes.
1) All classes offered had to be online
2) The semester starts 27Dec22, not 2Jan23, and now ends on 16Jan23.
Consequences:
1) We don't offer any lab courses now, b/c our department decided online labs (only) were insufficient to meet the SLOs for the courses. That cost the school about $100k in lost revenue compared to previous years.
2a) The last day of the wintersession is on MLKJr day. So, the final exams are to be given on a day when the School is closed (State and Federal Holiday at a State School).
2b) Students have 18d to do a semester of work, but if they don't bother to check email until after the New Year (not unreasonable by most standards), they will have lost 1/3 of their time for doing the Non-Final Exam portion of the course. The 2nd is also AFTER the Add/Drop deadline, so students can't get in or out of the course if they follow the previous schedules.
2c) There haven't been any announcements of these new changes in any venue or at a time that would reach the casually observant. You have to know to look and students generally don't know. Often, neither do faculty.
2d) In previous years, about 40-45% of Wintersession enrollments happen AFTER the class starts, and 20% are on the ADD deadline. That will pass unnoticed this year, and continuing ed will lose more $$. Anecdotal data, but roughly 2/3 of my intersession classes each year are our own students, often late enrollees. This year, it is 20%.
I posted the syllabus, its quiz, and everything else for the course yesterday morning. 27 hours later, just 2 students have taken the syllabus quiz. This does not bode well.
Doesn't bode well indeed. It would be nice if the folks who approved those changes have to teach at least one of the classes. Just to see what a logistics nightmare they created.
I can see the push for online: "Money from students not on campus! Flexible! More students = more money!"
And I bet the faculty are relieved to stand firm on no entirely online labs. But "must be online" means no field courses, travel classes or other money makers.
The weird start/end dates, and making the changes without telling folks is a recipe for absolute disaster.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 29, 2022, 07:30:48 AM
Quote from: FishProf on December 28, 2022, 07:27:56 AM
The Same Old story:
Our continuing ed department, in its infinitesimal wisdom, decided that a 9d wintersession was too short, so they made some changes.
1) All classes offered had to be online
2) The semester starts 27Dec22, not 2Jan23, and now ends on 16Jan23.
Consequences:
1) We don't offer any lab courses now, b/c our department decided online labs (only) were insufficient to meet the SLOs for the courses. That cost the school about $100k in lost revenue compared to previous years.
2a) The last day of the wintersession is on MLKJr day. So, the final exams are to be given on a day when the School is closed (State and Federal Holiday at a State School).
2b) Students have 18d to do a semester of work, but if they don't bother to check email until after the New Year (not unreasonable by most standards), they will have lost 1/3 of their time for doing the Non-Final Exam portion of the course. The 2nd is also AFTER the Add/Drop deadline, so students can't get in or out of the course if they follow the previous schedules.
2c) There haven't been any announcements of these new changes in any venue or at a time that would reach the casually observant. You have to know to look and students generally don't know. Often, neither do faculty.
2d) In previous years, about 40-45% of Wintersession enrollments happen AFTER the class starts, and 20% are on the ADD deadline. That will pass unnoticed this year, and continuing ed will lose more $$. Anecdotal data, but roughly 2/3 of my intersession classes each year are our own students, often late enrollees. This year, it is 20%.
I posted the syllabus, its quiz, and everything else for the course yesterday morning. 27 hours later, just 2 students have taken the syllabus quiz. This does not bode well.
Doesn't bode well indeed. It would be nice if the folks who approved those changes have to teach at least one of the classes. Just to see what a logistics nightmare they created.
I can see the push for online: "Money from students not on campus! Flexible! More students = more money!"
And I bet the faculty are relieved to stand firm on no entirely online labs. But "must be online" means no field courses, travel classes or other money makers.
The weird start/end dates, and making the changes without telling folks is a recipe for absolute disaster.
Been there, done that. I have no message of hope.
But like a burrito filled with mystery meat, this too shall pass.
Quote from: the_geneticist on December 29, 2022, 07:30:48 AM
I can see the push for online: "Money from students not on campus! Flexible! More students = more money!"
And I bet the faculty are relieved to stand firm on no entirely online labs. But "must be online" means no field courses, travel classes or other money makers.
The weird start/end dates, and making the changes without telling folks is a recipe for absolute disaster.
I have a meeting with the Continuing Ed dean and my dean on Tuesday about this problem. I didn't ask for it, I didn't even complain about it, but they want my input. Apparently, they want to know why the $40k in revenue I usually generate in intersession is now only $4k.
I am sharpening my beak and claws in readiness!
How long are your normal inter-session sessions?
(I think ours are normally just 14 days, but then, we also don't decide on them at the last minute--usually two semesters ahead of time!)
They used to be 9d not counting weekends.
Now they are 14d, not counting weekends. Although the last day is MLKJr day, so technically 15, but also not, because that is a holiday. Technically, so is the 2nd (NYD observed).
I have always thought they were too short, so I am not opposed to the attempt to lengthen them, but it has been so ham-handed this year.
From a class of 30, I have one paper that's partially plagiarized and another that shows understanding at the level of my own--from a C student. I can't find the latter online so suspect it was purchased.
Why did I assign these stupid papers? Oh yeah, it was so my students could see how our class topics are being used in the scientific literature. Maybe next time we'll stick to boring in-class exams. Sigh...
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 30, 2022, 01:00:30 PM
From a class of 30, I have one paper that's partially plagiarized and another that shows understanding at the level of my own--from a C student. I can't find the latter online so suspect it was purchased.
Why did I assign these stupid papers? Oh yeah, it was so my students could see how our class topics are being used in the scientific literature. Maybe next time we'll stick to boring in-class exams. Sigh...
Time to have a professional-level discussion of all the myriad details and nuances of the topic with the C student!
Also, if the other 28 are reasonable, it very probably was a worthwhile exercise.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on December 31, 2022, 08:30:51 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on December 30, 2022, 01:00:30 PM
From a class of 30, I have one paper that's partially plagiarized and another that shows understanding at the level of my own--from a C student. I can't find the latter online so suspect it was purchased.
Why did I assign these stupid papers? Oh yeah, it was so my students could see how our class topics are being used in the scientific literature. Maybe next time we'll stick to boring in-class exams. Sigh...
Time to have a professional-level discussion of all the myriad details and nuances of the topic with the C student!
Also, if the other 28 are reasonable, it very probably was a worthwhile exercise.
If the semester weren't over, I'd try to have that talk with the C student. As is, I probably won't see them again. (At least I hope not. They're not registered for my spring class, thank goodness.)
Thanks for encouraging me to think about the other 28 students. You're right--it was a worthwhile exercise for most of them.
We are playing the quarterly game of "another graduate student declined their teaching contract, better find you a replacement".
My level of concern has gone from:
Meh, this happens every quarter --> Well, at least we have a few weeks --> It's OK, classes don't start until next week --> maybe I can put experienced TAs in the Monday labs and redo the schedule later if needed?
We are playing another game of "hey, you know when would be a great time to make "improvements" to the LMS? 4 days before classes start!"
No, no, no, no. Stop changing important features, like "how to set a quiz" when classes start Monday. The "improvements" are rarely actual improvements, and even if they were, this is the worst time to roll this out. You know what would actually be helpful? Stop moving my video archive around! You know those hundreds of hours of "learner-centered" video content I created over the last few years? Stop hiding it from me!
-------
the_geneticist, what happens to grad students who decline the teaching contract? Do they have another funding source?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 05, 2023, 08:19:15 AM
We are playing another game of "hey, you know when would be a great time to make "improvements" to the LMS? 4 days before classes start!"
No, no, no, no. Stop changing important features, like "how to set a quiz" when classes start Monday. The "improvements" are rarely actual improvements, and even if they were, this is the worst time to roll this out. You know what would actually be helpful? Stop moving my video archive around! You know those hundreds of hours of "learner-centered" video content I created over the last few years? Stop hiding it from me!
-------
the_geneticist, what happens to grad students who decline the teaching contract? Do they have another funding source?
Yes, it means they have another source of funding (fellowship, grant, internal award, etc.). Rarely, it means that they are not making sufficient progress towards their degree and are not permitted to teach until they pass their qualifying exams/pay fees/etc.
Sorry for the double-post, but it's been a few days.
I had the weirdest conversation with a Graduate TA
GTA "my [class section] only has 8 students."
Me "Yes"
GTA "What do I do?"
Me "You might get a few more, better bring more than 8 copies of the assignment."
GTA "So, I should still go?"
Me "Yes"
GTA "I still have to teach it?"
Me "Yes."
I'm glad they ASKED, but what did they think they would do instead?!?
Did I mention this GTA has taught this exact course twice already?
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 11, 2023, 07:08:48 AM
Sorry for the double-post, but it's been a few days.
I had the weirdest conversation with a Graduate TA
GTA "my [class section] only has 8 students."
Me "Yes"
GTA "What do I do?"
Me "You might get a few more, better bring more than 8 copies of the assignment."
GTA "So, I should still go?"
Me "Yes"
GTA "I still have to teach it?"
Me "Yes."
I'm glad they ASKED, but what did they think they would do instead?!?
Did I mention this GTA has taught this exact course twice already?
At my institution they sometimes close small sections and redistribute them to others if there's room. Since the cap is something like 12 or 16, this doesn't overload the existing sections, and avoids those excruciating meetings in small sections where only two people show up. Maybe the student was expecting some sort of redistribution of that sort to happen?
Possible? But the GTA doesn't get to make that decision.
Based on their other questions, I think they were hoping/planning to not show up.
We have to take attendance in Week 1. With several hundred students, I expect some "weird stuff" along with the usual being sick, sleeping in, etc.
The weirdest one as of now is a student who went to [Basketweaving] discussion, completed the activity, and turned it in. The TA can't find them on the roster.
It happens, usually they just are in another section of the class.
Nope. Stu isn't even a [Basketweaving]-related major! Stu is taking a class that happens to meet in the same building, same, time, different room. They are a business major who sat through an entire [Intro to Baskets] discussion and didn't realize they were in the wrong course.
TAs laugh when I say to start with "Welcome to class! I'm here to teach [Intro to Baskets], hopefully that's why you are here too!".
But it's honestly needed.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 17, 2023, 10:30:45 AM
We have to take attendance in Week 1. With several hundred students, I expect some "weird stuff" along with the usual being sick, sleeping in, etc.
The weirdest one as of now is a student who went to [Basketweaving] discussion, completed the activity, and turned it in. The TA can't find them on the roster.
It happens, usually they just are in another section of the class.
Nope. Stu isn't even a [Basketweaving]-related major! Stu is taking a class that happens to meet in the same building, same, time, different room. They are a business major who sat through an entire [Intro to Baskets] discussion and didn't realize they were in the wrong course.
TAs laugh when I say to start with "Welcome to class! I'm here to teach [Intro to Baskets], hopefully that's why you are here too!".
But it's honestly needed.
I once had a student stay in my class for about an hour being quite disruptive the entire time. This was an intensive five-or-six week summer session remedial course for which updated rosters would be handed to professors on the first day of class. It turned out that the student had mistaken my English writing class for Stu's math class, despite my having gone over the syllabus, the assignments, grading policies, and had students complete a couple of short in-class writing assignments. Why Stu would have mistaken paragraph writing and critiquing for a math problem remains a mystery.
I was in the grad office one day when a student came in to talk to another TA about his first test. Turns out he was enrolled in intro logic, but had been going to the intro philosophy lectures and discussion sessions. Poor bugger.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on January 17, 2023, 01:47:50 PM
I was in the grad office one day when a student came in to talk to another TA about his first test. Turns out he was enrolled in intro logic, but had been going to the intro philosophy lectures and discussion sessions. Poor bugger.
These are all hilarious! This fall, about 2/3 of the way through the semester, two students I didn't recognize appeared in my classroom-- I figured they were prospective students, since they sometimes sit in on classes, and they did look very young. About half an hour in, one of them raises a hand and says "excuse me, what does this have to do with math?". Very puzzled I said "'it doesn't". Even more confused, he then asked "Is this the math thing?" I told him no, this was developmental psychology. They both then got up and scuttled out of the classroom. The rest of the class burst out laughing. We never did figure out who they were, or why it took them half an hour to figure out that it wasn't remotely the "math thing".
Quote from: Puget on January 17, 2023, 02:12:00 PM
Even more confused, he then asked "Is this the math thing?" I told him no, this was developmental psychology. They both then got up and scuttled out of the classroom. The rest of the class burst out laughing. We never did figure out who they were, or why it took them half an hour to figure out that it wasn't remotely the "math thing".
My roommate in first year did that in an exam. He sat down in the wrong area of the gym for the final exam, and freaked out at the exam, until he realized it was for the wrong course. (He was in Chem. Eng; the exam was in Forestry.)
I had a classmate who liked to tell the story about how she once went into a classroom and wondered what the wrong prof was doing in the room at that time. And why were all those different students in there? Then the prof pointed out to her that she had her class times mixed up, and suggested that she go back to her room and get some rest. She had been having such a hectic semester that her classes and scheduled times were just kind of blurring together. It's amazing what can happen with enough stress and disorganization.
Y'all, I contacted the student and they actually wrote back.
QuoteYeah, I think last week I attended a wrong discussion section for the wrong course. I did not realize until after I wrote my name down for the attendance.
Best Regards,
[Wrong Room Stu]
And they completed the activity and worksheet too.
They scored 10/10 and can write polite emails. Maybe I should keep them!
Imagine what a student like that could accomplish in the right class!
Dear student - asking me to re-open a closed assignment so that you can earn the 1 point that you missed is not making you look good in my eyes. Also, stating that missing this point has dropped your grade from 100% to 75% is really not helping. Yes, mathematically, at this point in the semester, you now have earned only 75% of the available points. That is, 75% of the 0.4% of your total class grade that has been scored thus far. The fact that you "only just realized" that you can re-take the quizzes multiple times - when there have been numerous class announcements stating that you can re-take the quizzes multiple times - is icing on the not-comprehending-the-class-policies cake.
We are only in week 2. It is far too early in the semester for grade-grubbing.
Quote from: arcturus on January 18, 2023, 12:25:00 PM
Dear student - asking me to re-open a closed assignment so that you can earn the 1 point that you missed is not making you look good in my eyes. Also, stating that missing this point has dropped your grade from 100% to 75% is really not helping. Yes, mathematically, at this point in the semester, you now have earned only 75% of the available points. That is, 75% of the 0.4% of your total class grade that has been scored thus far. The fact that you "only just realized" that you can re-take the quizzes multiple times - when there have been numerous class announcements stating that you can re-take the quizzes multiple times - is icing on the not-comprehending-the-class-policies cake.
We are only in week 2. It is far too early in the semester for grade-grubbing.
Ugh, and this is one reason why I have my grades displayed as points earned, not percentage.
It's never too early (or too late!) for grade grubbing!
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 09:24:57 AM
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
How many of them think that they can "multitask" their way through a class while technically at work, I wonder?
Quote from: apl68 on January 20, 2023, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 09:24:57 AM
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
How many of them think that they can "multitask" their way through a class while technically at work, I wonder?
Because
someone out there keeps telling them "online class" actually means "just do it when it's convenient and you'll learn a ton and get an A."
Quote from: apl68 on January 20, 2023, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 09:24:57 AM
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
How many of them think that they can "multitask" their way through a class while technically at work, I wonder?
That's what I'm wondering. I mean, I feel for people who want to further their education, but have to work. It must be difficult. And I recognize that I have been very, very fortunate in my life to not have to do that.
Or, it could just be some students who think it will be 'easy' to do both? Who knows?
Quote from: ciao_yall on January 20, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 20, 2023, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 09:24:57 AM
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
How many of them think that they can "multitask" their way through a class while technically at work, I wonder?
Because someone out there keeps telling them "online class" actually means "just do it when it's convenient and you'll learn a ton and get an A."
Could be...
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Our students have learned the hard way that there are MULTIPLE ways to offer a course. No, "online" does not always mean "self-paced, asynchronous, no deadlines". Ironically, the students who want the flexibility of an asynchronous course typically do very, very poorly when given access to recorded lectures.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 20, 2023, 11:07:40 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Our students have learned the hard way that there are MULTIPLE ways to offer a course. No, "online" does not always mean "self-paced, asynchronous, no deadlines". Ironically, the students who want the flexibility of an asynchronous course typically do very, very poorly when given access to recorded lectures.
It's probably the same as what happens with open book exams. Fewer regulations does not mean it will be easier; in fact, since it requires more proactive effort on the part of the student, it often seems harder in practice.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
We are "strongly encouraged" to record our synchronous in-person and online classes so students can go back and review the lecture. It looks like this recommendation from the COVID years is here to stay at my place.
Quote from: ciao_yall on January 20, 2023, 10:46:32 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 20, 2023, 10:22:27 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 09:24:57 AM
I teach a synchronous online course, ugh, I know...
I have had SEVERAL students (and a few of my colleagues have had this issue too) who have told me that they cannot take the online quizzes I'm giving during class, or they can't even attend class because they are at work.
Why are you trying to take a class and work at the same time? I mean, I can understand if someone has been called in at the last minute, but these are serial offenders. SMH.
How many of them think that they can "multitask" their way through a class while technically at work, I wonder?
Because someone out there keeps telling them "online class" actually means "just do it when it's convenient and you'll learn a ton and it will be easy to get an A."
Fixed that for you.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Ugh.
I told my students that I was NOT going to record synchronous online lectures because the point was for them to interact with one another. If I let them just watch the recording later, none of them were going to show up and then there wouldn't be anything to watch.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on January 20, 2023, 11:27:50 AM
Quote
Because someone out there keeps telling them "online class" actually means "just do it when it's convenient and you'll learn a ton and it will be easy to get an A."
Fixed that for you.
Thank you. Right, it's all about the online badge!
Quote from: ciao_yall on January 20, 2023, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Ugh.
I told my students that I was NOT going to record synchronous online lectures because the point was for them to interact with one another. If I let them just watch the recording later, none of them were going to show up and then there wouldn't be anything to watch.
Yep. I'm not doing it either.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: ciao_yall on January 20, 2023, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 20, 2023, 10:51:24 AM
Triple post. I forgot to mention that I had another student who wanted to negotiate with me. Apparently, stu wanted me to post recorded lectures so that stu could go back and watch later. Um, no, that's not the point of a synchronous online lecture.
Ugh.
I told my students that I was NOT going to record synchronous online lectures because the point was for them to interact with one another. If I let them just watch the recording later, none of them were going to show up and then there wouldn't be anything to watch.
Yep. I'm not doing it either.
Yes, no need to provide the videos for a synchronous class. I teach an online asynchronous course and the students don't watch the provided videos in any case.
Quote from: arcturus on January 20, 2023, 02:12:55 PM
Yes, no need to provide the videos for a synchronous class. I teach an online asynchronous course and the students don't watch the provided videos in any case.
Wait... does that mean they do the reading instead?!
We were asked if we could simply record and re-use materials from a discussion section so we didn't have to use TAs for online discussion classes.
Uh, no.
The entire point of a discussion class is the students talk with each other! Even if we could record the breakout rooms on Zoom (and get permission to do this), why on earth would it help the students to watch other students talk about the material?
We did have a TA who did exactly this. Recorded his first "discussion", then played that recording to his other sections. During the synchronous discussion. And had NO CLUE why that was such a bad plan.
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 20, 2023, 03:18:47 PM
We were asked if we could simply record and re-use materials from a discussion section so we didn't have to use TAs for online discussion classes.
Uh, no.
The entire point of a discussion class is the students talk with each other! Even if we could record the breakout rooms on Zoom (and get permission to do this), why on earth would it help the students to watch other students talk about the material?
We did have a TA who did exactly this. Recorded his first "discussion", then played that recording to his other sections. During the synchronous discussion. And had NO CLUE why that was such a bad plan.
Along with this, the eager-beaver faculty gush about how great it is that, if students don't understand something, they can rewind and relisten until they get it.
Um... if your explanation didn't make sense to them the first time, why will repeating it umpteen times help them? Isn't it better they explain why they are confused so you can reword your explanation?
Quote from: ciao_yall on January 20, 2023, 05:34:20 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 20, 2023, 03:18:47 PM
We were asked if we could simply record and re-use materials from a discussion section so we didn't have to use TAs for online discussion classes.
Uh, no.
The entire point of a discussion class is the students talk with each other! Even if we could record the breakout rooms on Zoom (and get permission to do this), why on earth would it help the students to watch other students talk about the material?
We did have a TA who did exactly this. Recorded his first "discussion", then played that recording to his other sections. During the synchronous discussion. And had NO CLUE why that was such a bad plan.
Along with this, the eager-beaver faculty gush about how great it is that, if students don't understand something, they can rewind and relisten until they get it.
Um... if your explanation didn't make sense to them the first time, why will repeating it umpteen times help them? Isn't it better they explain why they are confused so you can reword your explanation?
For what it's worth, I am not an eager beaver but I do record and post my lectures in my more content driven classes. I explain at the beginning that I do it for students who are unavoidably absent or ill (I DON'T want students coming to class with covid of influenza), and warn them all that it won't adequately replace coming to class since some of what we do in class is still discussion and activity based. Since students earn essentially free points if they are in class when we do activities I don't see a dropoff in attendance and a subset of students do use the videos to study.
It's mostly when they find that they thought they DID understand my explanations in class but realize they missed something critical when they they can't actually do the practice problems or homework.
I don't record my more discussion based classes because that would completely miss the point. And I recently had to tell a student that even though his online physics class "only" overlapped with my discussion based class by 25 minutes, he could not put an earbud in so he could be "present" in both classes simultaneously.
I've always appreciated professors who recorded classes, and now I do it myself, because I don't want students coming to class when they ill (even virtually). Also, recordings are helpful for students with disabilities in many cases, including those who can't afford to get official accommodations. It's simple for me to do and it helps most students I deal with, so I'm happy to make the recordings. Most students still attend synchronously, so I don't see a problem with recording and making the recordings available.
I guess it depends on the type of students you have and the type of institution you are at. As someone who graduated at the top of the class, I was super grateful for profs who recorded lectures when I had shingles at far too young, or when I had a concussion, as I could still get most of the class content. The profs I had who recorded class still had most students attend in person. Now as a lecturer, my students tell me they appreciate that the synchronous lectures as recorded and available asynchronously. I still get plenty of engagement in the synchronous lectures.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on January 21, 2023, 01:47:49 PM
I've always appreciated professors who recorded classes, and now I do it myself, because I don't want students coming to class when they ill (even virtually). Also, recordings are helpful for students with disabilities in many cases, including those who can't afford to get official accommodations. It's simple for me to do and it helps most students I deal with, so I'm happy to make the recordings. Most students still attend synchronously, so I don't see a problem with recording and making the recordings available.
I guess it depends on the type of students you have and the type of institution you are at. As someone who graduated at the top of the class, I was super grateful for profs who recorded lectures when I had shingles at far too young, or when I had a concussion, as I could still get most of the class content. The profs I had who recorded class still had most students attend in person. Now as a lecturer, my students tell me they appreciate that the synchronous lectures as recorded and available asynchronously. I still get plenty of engagement in the synchronous lectures.
If your classrooms are easily set up for this, and you don't mix much discussion into lectures, and/or you have TA support, I can see the argument for this, but for me it would just be a huge amount of extra work. I'm also not really sure it's necessary anyway. If students miss class they can get notes and I'm happy to talk through anything with them in a meeting if they think that would be helpful.
I swear, I'm getting really annoyed with students who either don't read the syllabus, don't care, read it and still try to do something that they're not allowed to do, or something else. I think this is the third or fourth email this week from my synchronous online class from a student who missed a quiz during class.
Student (summarized): "I had multiple Murphy's Law life issues happen. Can I make up the quiz?"
Fantasy reply: "Did you read the damn syllabus? Did you see the part where there are no makeups and you get to drop TWO quizzes? Stop wasting my damn time."
Edit: I really try to be accommodating to students, but I have to draw a line somewhere- right?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2023, 12:40:03 PM
Student (summarized): "I had multiple Murphy's Law life issues happen. Can I make up the quiz?"
Fantasy reply: "Did you read the damn syllabus? Did you see the part where there are no makeups and you get to drop TWO quizzes? Stop wasting my damn time."
Edit: I really try to be accommodating to students, but I have to draw a line somewhere- right?
Don't waste time. Just a quick reply: "Please see p. 3 of syllabus." Set the tone early to avoid umpteen emails and pleas all semester.
At what point in the semester do you expect students to have the assigned books? In my case, the university bookstore did indeed flub my order. My books are also readily available from online retailers. But a poll of my class at the end of week 2 informed me that only about 33% had the book in hand that day (a few others said that their amazon orders were running late). I've assigned PDFs of small readings for the first two weeks, but week 3 I expect them to have the book. Am I expecting too much?
Quote from: Cheerful on January 22, 2023, 06:07:24 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2023, 12:40:03 PM
Student (summarized): "I had multiple Murphy's Law life issues happen. Can I make up the quiz?"
Fantasy reply: "Did you read the damn syllabus? Did you see the part where there are no makeups and you get to drop TWO quizzes? Stop wasting my damn time."
Edit: I really try to be accommodating to students, but I have to draw a line somewhere- right?
Don't waste time. Just a quick reply: "Please see p. 3 of syllabus." Set the tone early to avoid umpteen emails and pleas all semester.
That's fair, but honestly, I find it easier to just say or write "Because the point of the quizzes is to remind everyone to do the reading before classes, I don't allow makeups, however, you can miss two without penalty, so not a big deal!" and then just repeat that constantly. It would be nice if all students actually just looked at the syllabus, but many of them don't, so what's the point of being grumpy about it.
Quote from: RatGuy on January 23, 2023, 05:20:06 AM
At what point in the semester do you expect students to have the assigned books? In my case, the university bookstore did indeed flub my order. My books are also readily available from online retailers. But a poll of my class at the end of week 2 informed me that only about 33% had the book in hand that day (a few others said that their amazon orders were running late). I've assigned PDFs of small readings for the first two weeks, but week 3 I expect them to have the book. Am I expecting too much?
Even if the bookstore flubbed your order, if the books were available at the bookstore at some point during week one, then I'd expect everyone to have the books by week 2. I tell students if they choose to order online, and the book is late, that is on them, they're still responsible for the material, and to borrow a book from a classmate or otherwise make do until their book arrives. In all my courses that have books, I generally am making assignments from them during the first week and don't post content online.
Quote from: Cheerful on January 22, 2023, 06:07:24 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2023, 12:40:03 PM
Student (summarized): "I had multiple Murphy's Law life issues happen. Can I make up the quiz?"
Fantasy reply: "Did you read the damn syllabus? Did you see the part where there are no makeups and you get to drop TWO quizzes? Stop wasting my damn time."
Edit: I really try to be accommodating to students, but I have to draw a line somewhere- right?
Don't waste time. Just a quick reply: "Please see p. 3 of syllabus." Set the tone early to avoid umpteen emails and pleas all semester.
I also have language in the syllabus that says, "Your definition of an emergency and mine might be different. We will use my definition."
Quote from: RatGuy on January 23, 2023, 05:20:06 AM
At what point in the semester do you expect students to have the assigned books? In my case, the university bookstore did indeed flub my order. My books are also readily available from online retailers. But a poll of my class at the end of week 2 informed me that only about 33% had the book in hand that day (a few others said that their amazon orders were running late). I've assigned PDFs of small readings for the first two weeks, but week 3 I expect them to have the book. Am I expecting too much?
Some students I have taught cannot get books from online retailers (for instance, those on some forms of financial aid). So if it is not available in the bookstore because of the flub, could you put a copy on reserve at the library? Motivated students can go and scan or read what they need.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on January 23, 2023, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on January 23, 2023, 05:20:06 AM
At what point in the semester do you expect students to have the assigned books? In my case, the university bookstore did indeed flub my order. My books are also readily available from online retailers. But a poll of my class at the end of week 2 informed me that only about 33% had the book in hand that day (a few others said that their amazon orders were running late). I've assigned PDFs of small readings for the first two weeks, but week 3 I expect them to have the book. Am I expecting too much?
Some students I have taught cannot get books from online retailers (for instance, those on some forms of financial aid). So if it is not available in the bookstore because of the flub, could you put a copy on reserve at the library? Motivated students can go and scan or read what they need.
AR.
Good idea, and it's been implemented.
Turns out, if a publisher (in this case, Norton) decides to discontinue a title at the start of 2023 but after book orders have been submitted, the bookstore will a) not do anything and b) not contact me to say that the book wasn't obtained. They sell off old stock and nothing else. And students (and faculty) here don't see the books on the shelves; they complete an online survey of courses and just pick up the books. They learn at that time the bookstore doesn't have copies of their textbook, and don't offer any ways to get it. Luckily there's a Penguin version available, and I had to get the bookstore to order it -- only after most of my students said "the bookstore doesn't have it." Such a dumb process.
I've seen a university bookstore make such a mess out of so many different courses' and profs' book orders that the university finally outsourced its ordering process. The bookstore staffers who had been making such a hash of it effectively did themselves out of a job. All this happened after enough profs compared notes to realize that it wasn't just them, individually, being unlucky--flubbed orders were more the norm at this place.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 23, 2023, 06:51:14 AM
I also have language in the syllabus that says, "Your definition of an emergency and mine might be different. We will use my definition."
LOL! I am so stealing this!
Quote from: Caracal on January 23, 2023, 05:52:43 AM
Quote from: Cheerful on January 22, 2023, 06:07:24 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 22, 2023, 12:40:03 PM
Student (summarized): "I had multiple Murphy's Law life issues happen. Can I make up the quiz?"
Fantasy reply: "Did you read the damn syllabus? Did you see the part where there are no makeups and you get to drop TWO quizzes? Stop wasting my damn time."
Edit: I really try to be accommodating to students, but I have to draw a line somewhere- right?
Don't waste time. Just a quick reply: "Please see p. 3 of syllabus." Set the tone early to avoid umpteen emails and pleas all semester.
That's fair, but honestly, I find it easier to just say or write "Because the point of the quizzes is to remind everyone to do the reading before classes, I don't allow makeups, however, you can miss two without penalty, so not a big deal!" and then just repeat that constantly. It would be nice if all students actually just looked at the syllabus, but many of them don't, so what's the point of being grumpy about it.
The Grinch has been my spirit animal for the month. :)
If a current text is available on various ol retailers, how might the price compare to what the uni bookstore is charging (we are of course talking about for new works, esp given that many textbooks are revised so frequently that ones only a handful of years old may well just be too old for continued use)?
Quote from: RatGuy on January 23, 2023, 10:46:44 AM
Turns out, if a publisher (in this case, Norton) decides to discontinue a title at the start of 2023 but after book orders have been submitted, the bookstore will a) not do anything and b) not contact me to say that the book wasn't obtained. They sell off old stock and nothing else. And students (and faculty) here don't see the books on the shelves; they complete an online survey of courses and just pick up the books. They learn at that time the bookstore doesn't have copies of their textbook, and don't offer any ways to get it. Luckily there's a Penguin version available, and I had to get the bookstore to order it -- only after most of my students said "the bookstore doesn't have it." Such a dumb process.
Infuriating. So sorry.
AR.
The semester has started off very nice: pleasant students, decent work, no Admin BS that can't be safely ignored.
Then yesterday morning, a F2F student who didn't show up the first day, arrived 40 minutes late the second, and finally was there on time Tuesday, showed up in my office, mad as hell. He tried to read me the riot act for "giving" him a 10/25 score on the word salad/garbage he submitted for the diagnostic writing assignment. (This is Comp II, and his paper was complete gibberish and filled with grammar and spelling errors, not to mention that it never came close to answering any of the four required points.)
"You can't do that," he yelled at me. Um, yes, I can, and I did--and he's damn lucky I gave him that many points; I told him as much in a little nicer language, but not much. He demanded to know why his score was so low, even thought I'd made extensive markings and feedback comments on his work, so I invited him to look at my screen while I read all the comments to him. (Maybe he can't read? It wouldn't be unusual for our students.) He left grumbling and grousing, and I called him out as he left, when I heard him call me "a bitch" (he grudgingly apologized, given the option of doing so or walking next door with me to explain himself to the dean).
A colleague had him last fall and said was a complete PitA who just wants attention and to have everything his way. He scraped by with his C in Comp I thanks to squeaking out 69.7% that got rounded up.
So much for a nice, quiet semester? We'll see how it goes. He might have just been testing me. Regardless, I'm not giving this guy much ground, and I'm not letting him ruin the spring for me. (I'm sure other things will come up to try to do that.)
TL/DR: I really should have powered through and finished the dissertation and talked myself out of this notion of the noble cause of CCs empowering people (since way too many of our students couldn't care less about "expanding minds and changing lives"). SIGH.
Damn. PITA sounds about right. I would have wanted to drop kick his ass out of my office (I bet you wanted to too!). At my age now, I'm not sure I could have restrained myself. Just kidding.
Do you all have a student conduct committee? There are some red flags here and it seems like beginning some documentation (or continuing it) might be wise. A few years back we had a very similar student who ultimately was asked to leave the University due to a running history of escalating behavior that went from snappy comments in class to the exact kind of office hours visits you described to some online kind-of harassment of instructors to at least one fairly unpleasant incident off campus. I was not directly involved but was department head at the time and much of my work at that time involved supporting the affected instructors. Each incident taken separately felt relatively trivial and had some plausible deniability around it. It would have been very hard to manage without all of the student conduct reports from our instructors and, as it turns out, other instructors around campus.
EPW, at my age, I barely did! LOL! (That, plus this damned SIJD that makes me less-than-ideally mobile. My husband often jokes that I'm liable to beat somebody with my cane one of these days--and there are days he's not far wrong.)
Istiblennius, as a former chair myself, my mind went to the same place you suggest: we have a "behavioral intervention team," and I'm in the process of writing up a report for them now--not to request an intervention, but just to get a paper trail started. Great minds work alike! :-)
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 27, 2023, 08:22:26 AM
The semester has started off very nice: pleasant students, decent work, no Admin BS that can't be safely ignored.
Then yesterday morning, a F2F student who didn't show up the first day, arrived 40 minutes late the second, and finally was there on time Tuesday, showed up in my office, mad as hell. He tried to read me the riot act for "giving" him a 10/25 score on the word salad/garbage he submitted for the diagnostic writing assignment. (This is Comp II, and his paper was complete gibberish and filled with grammar and spelling errors, not to mention that it never came close to answering any of the four required points.)
"You can't do that," he yelled at me. Um, yes, I can, and I did--and he's damn lucky I gave him that many points; I told him as much in a little nicer language, but not much. He demanded to know why his score was so low, even thought I'd made extensive markings and feedback comments on his work, so I invited him to look at my screen while I read all the comments to him. (Maybe he can't read? It wouldn't be unusual for our students.) He left grumbling and grousing, and I called him out as he left, when I heard him call me "a bitch" (he grudgingly apologized, given the option of doing so or walking next door with me to explain himself to the dean).
A colleague had him last fall and said was a complete PitA who just wants attention and to have everything his way. He scraped by with his C in Comp I thanks to squeaking out 69.7% that got rounded up.
So much for a nice, quiet semester? We'll see how it goes. He might have just been testing me. Regardless, I'm not giving this guy much ground, and I'm not letting him ruin the spring for me. (I'm sure other things will come up to try to do that.)
TL/DR: I really should have powered through and finished the dissertation and talked myself out of this notion of the noble cause of CCs empowering people (since way too many of our students couldn't care less about "expanding minds and changing lives"). SIGH.
Document, document, document. I would email the student and also cc the chair, summarizing the events and language that transpired at the meeting. I would also advise the student that he is expected to conduct himself in a professional manner when interacting with anyone on campus. In your email you might also express your concern about his attendance and not understanding the requirements of the assignment, so there are no surprises for you down the line.
ETA: ALH, we must have posted simultaneously--I see that you've already started the paper trail.
Totally agree with documenting and pushing it further up the food chain. But, you already know that. It's better to alert people now, rather than later. Though, that didn't help in the case with that 6 year old who shot his teacher. :(
What part of "you have to go to your registered discussion section" makes it sound like you can just show up randomly to any discussion?
I'm not even referring to "Stu went to 10:00 discussion in Room A, but should have gone to 10:00 discussion in Room B next door.
Or even "Stu is registered for Monday at 9:00 and showed up for Monday at 1:00 because mornings are hard".
They aren't supposed to do those since it's not fair to the TA (and can mean too many folks in the room due to fire codes).
I mean, "Stu randomly went to a room that looked like a discussion class and is upset they earned a 0."
If you go to a discussion for the wrong course, yes we will mark you absent. Discussions in [baskets 101] and [clay pots 102] are not interchangeable!
Same story, different semester.
1) Syllabus Quiz, need 100% to see the rest of the course material.
2) Online course. Go at your own pace (but each assignment unlocks the next.
3) 16 week semester, we are starting week 3.
4) 10 of 32 students haven't done #1. Only 3 of those 10 have tried.
5) Of the 22 who completed #1, only 10 have done any other work.
Today I sent this announcmenet.
"Good Morning Class,
This is the start of the third week (of 16). Youi are behind schedule IF
1) You have not taken the syllabus quiz and scored 100% on it; OR
2) You have less than a 7.5% overall score (On Pace to Pass. OP2P = (2/16)*0.6))
TOMORROW is the 31st. Last day to Drop the course. ALSO the last day to take the syllabus Quiz AND get 100%.
You MUST do One of those, or the semester is gonna get bad for you.
Best,
Fishprof.
Is this supposed to be a weed-out course? It sounds like the students may be weeding themselves out.
Quote from: apl68 on January 30, 2023, 07:25:44 AM
Is this supposed to be a weed-out course? It sounds like the students may be weeding themselves out.
No, non-majors online asynchronous gen ed.
This happens EVERY semester. Roughly 1/3 never do the syllabus quiz, or do it and stop. And they don't drop, so I end up entering failing grades.
I just had to submit a "NEVER" as the last day of attendance for 3 students in this course last semester.
Quote from: FishProf on January 30, 2023, 07:31:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 30, 2023, 07:25:44 AM
Is this supposed to be a weed-out course? It sounds like the students may be weeding themselves out.
No, non-majors online asynchronous gen ed.
This happens EVERY semester. Roughly 1/3 never do the syllabus quiz, or do it and stop. And they don't drop, so I end up entering failing grades.
I just had to submit a "NEVER" as the last day of attendance for 3 students in this course last semester.
Doesn't your institution require instructors to submit a verification of attendance report around the end of the second or third week of class? Here, students who haven't attended any class by the specified date are automatically withdrawn from the course. I think this is a state requirement--attendance is somehow related to financial aid.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 30, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Quote from: FishProf on January 30, 2023, 07:31:11 AM
Quote from: apl68 on January 30, 2023, 07:25:44 AM
Is this supposed to be a weed-out course? It sounds like the students may be weeding themselves out.
No, non-majors online asynchronous gen ed.
This happens EVERY semester. Roughly 1/3 never do the syllabus quiz, or do it and stop. And they don't drop, so I end up entering failing grades.
I just had to submit a "NEVER" as the last day of attendance for 3 students in this course last semester.
Doesn't your institution require instructors to submit a verification of attendance report around the end of the second or third week of class? Here, students who haven't attended any class by the specified date are automatically withdrawn from the course. I think this is a state requirement--attendance is somehow related to financial aid.
We report (non-) attendance at week 6 (out of 15). However, non-attending students are not automatically withdrawn here, so they stay on the books until the end of the semester. We are required to report date of last attendance if a student "unofficially withdraws" and a separate option in the grade book is for never attended. I usually have one or two of the latter in my large GenEd courses and several of the former.
Quote from: Langue_doc on January 30, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Doesn't your institution require instructors to submit a verification of attendance report around the end of the second or third week of class? Here, students who haven't attended any class by the specified date are automatically withdrawn from the course. I think this is a state requirement--attendance is somehow related to financial aid.
no
Aren't there faculty advisors to be cc'd here, to ensure that the students do one or the other of these things before the deadline, esp if they be freshmen?
I am out of ideas here. Moving student hours outside of my office is not an option.
In years past, students didn't visit during office hours because they didn't think far enough ahead to schedule. So, ok, I made "walk-in" hours, no appointment needed. Then they didn't visit (and slammed me on evals for not being available) because there's too many people at the time they stopped by and they can't wait. Ok, walk-in hours AND I'll open a link where they can sign up for basically any other time I'm not in class or another meeting (because emailing me to schedule a meeting is an extra step they can't take). And I offer either in person or virtual meetings.
I remind students just about every class period of all the ways they can come see me, with or without an appointment, and that I want them to come ask me questions any time. It's front and center on our LMS course page.
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
Quote from: statsgeek on January 31, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
This is the same classmate of whom it is said "I asked a classmate and they said there aren't any labs the first week of classes."
(In contrast to the note
on the door of the lab stating that, indeed, labs begin the first week of classes.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 31, 2023, 05:28:00 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on January 31, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
This is the same classmate of whom it is said "I asked a classmate and they said there aren't any labs the first week of classes."
(In contrast to the note on the door of the lab stating that, indeed, labs begin the first week of classes.)
So annoying. I'll add. In lab yesterday, students didn't know that they had to READ the prelab material before coming to lab and taking the prelab quiz. Um, what did I tell you all to do last time we had lab???
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 31, 2023, 05:42:09 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 31, 2023, 05:28:00 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on January 31, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
This is the same classmate of whom it is said "I asked a classmate and they said there aren't any labs the first week of classes."
(In contrast to the note on the door of the lab stating that, indeed, labs begin the first week of classes.)
So annoying. I'll add. In lab yesterday, students didn't know that they had to READ the prelab material before coming to lab and taking the prelab quiz. Um, what did I tell you all to do last time we had lab???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRKCXC0JFg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRKCXC0JFg)
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 30, 2023, 07:20:46 PM
Aren't there faculty advisors to be cc'd here, to ensure that the students do one or the other of these things before the deadline, esp if they be freshmen?
They have been. It won't work.
I have 80 advisees. If I had to reach out to even 1/4 of those students to track them down and get them to go to classes, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 31, 2023, 05:42:09 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 31, 2023, 05:28:00 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on January 31, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
This is the same classmate of whom it is said "I asked a classmate and they said there aren't any labs the first week of classes."
(In contrast to the note on the door of the lab stating that, indeed, labs begin the first week of classes.)
So annoying. I'll add. In lab yesterday, students didn't know that they had to READ the prelab material before coming to lab and taking the prelab quiz. Um, what did I tell you all to do last time we had lab???
Only if they want to do well on the quiz! They can always just "try their best".
Some folks need to learn that they are asking the wrong classmate. I don't know how they do it, but the lower achieving students find each other and work together. How?? Why??
Quote from: the_geneticist on January 31, 2023, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 31, 2023, 05:42:09 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 31, 2023, 05:28:00 AM
Quote from: statsgeek on January 31, 2023, 05:21:21 AM
I'm still getting assignments with "I didn't know how to do this and I asked a classmate and they didn't know either." written at the top.
This is the same classmate of whom it is said "I asked a classmate and they said there aren't any labs the first week of classes."
(In contrast to the note on the door of the lab stating that, indeed, labs begin the first week of classes.)
So annoying. I'll add. In lab yesterday, students didn't know that they had to READ the prelab material before coming to lab and taking the prelab quiz. Um, what did I tell you all to do last time we had lab???
Only if they want to do well on the quiz! They can always just "try their best".
Some folks need to learn that they are asking the wrong classmate. I don't know how they do it, but the lower achieving students find each other and work together. How?? Why??
They are all on GroupMe together, hoping that someone will post the answers there.
I just went through an activity where 1/4 of the students copied/pasted answers from the internet. They don't seem to grasp the concept that we can catch them cheating (without using software like Turnitin) if they use technical language that we haven't taught them in this class.
My class just played a game that simulates evolution and population dynamics. I tell them, quite conspicuously, to read ALL the directions before they start.
In 3 of the 4 groups, the student who thought they won, actually came in last place because they didn't read the part about overpopulation being bad.
Happens every year.
Quote from: FishProf on January 31, 2023, 07:37:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 30, 2023, 07:20:46 PM
Aren't there faculty advisors to be cc'd here, to ensure that the students do one or the other of these things before the deadline, esp if they be freshmen?
They have been. It won't work.
I have 80 advisees. If I had to reach out to even 1/4 of those students to track them down and get them to go to classes, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
Yikes. Our programs have dedicated advisors for students. Their job is to advise. I guess the US system is very different.
80 advisees sounds like an *awfully* large number for most US schools.
Still, well... it would take five seconds to fire off a form email to an advisee that says, essentially, 'Prof Fish said that you need to either take the syllabus quiz or drop the class by Jan 31st. Academically, you will regret it quickly if you do neither of these.'
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2023, 12:26:56 PM
80 advisees sounds like an *awfully* large number for most US schools.
Still, well... it would take five seconds to fire off a form email to an advisee that says, essentially, 'Prof Fish said that you need to either take the syllabus quiz or drop the class by Jan 31st. Academically, you will regret it quickly if you do neither of these.'
And that would be 5
more seconds spent on the course than the student did in most of these cases........
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2023, 12:26:56 PM
80 advisees sounds like an *awfully* large number for most US schools.
Still, well... it would take five seconds to fire off a form email to an advisee that says, essentially, 'Prof Fish said that you need to either take the syllabus quiz or drop the class by Jan 31st. Academically, you will regret it quickly if you do neither of these.'
Contacting students who are in your class is easy. "Reminder, start the quiz! Last day to drop is [date]".
The issue is that most of us advise students that are NOT all in our classes, certainly not all in the same class. Some places have a system to track students, but it relies on instructors to report who is failing/at risk. Not trivial and it misses folks.
We are talking about Prof X having a list of all his students, and their advisors/ advisor email addies. Is this info not regularly provided to all faculty? If it is, it would be very easy to spend those five seconds a kid, lets say maybe ten seconds a kid, to fire off those form emails to all the advisors of all one's own students who would be in such a situation...
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2023, 06:20:05 PM
We are talking about Prof X having a list of all his students, and their advisors/ advisor email addies. Is this info not regularly provided to all faculty? If it is, it would be very easy to spend those five seconds a kid, lets say maybe ten seconds a kid, to fire off those form emails to all the advisors of all one's own students who would be in such a situation...
No. At my school, I'd have to look up each student individually in our clunky database. It would tell me the name of their advisor. Then I'd have to look up the advisor's email in the directory. It would be super annoying. And it's not like the advisor would have any special insight into the student's issues or be able to make the student attend class.
Quote from: Liquidambar on January 31, 2023, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2023, 06:20:05 PM
We are talking about Prof X having a list of all his students, and their advisors/ advisor email addies. Is this info not regularly provided to all faculty? If it is, it would be very easy to spend those five seconds a kid, lets say maybe ten seconds a kid, to fire off those form emails to all the advisors of all one's own students who would be in such a situation...
No. At my school, I'd have to look up each student individually in our clunky database. It would tell me the name of their advisor. Then I'd have to look up the advisor's email in the directory. It would be super annoying. And it's not like the advisor would have any special insight into the student's issues or be able to make the student attend class.
And in most cases they have gotten this information in the syllabus, in in class announcements, as announcements on the LMS (that are sent to their email) and frequently as direct emails from the instructor. I'm unclear why you think one more email (albeit from a different person) is going to make the difference.
I can raise a flag in Starfish (which I did) but that only notifies their advisor IF they actually check on Starfish.
A form letter isn't exactly the kind of personal outreach that will move the needle if they don't care about their grades enough to read the professor's email.
Quote from: FishProf on February 01, 2023, 04:11:03 AM
I can raise a flag in Starfish (which I did) but that only notifies their advisor IF they actually check on Starfish.
A form letter isn't exactly the kind of personal outreach that will move the needle if they don't care about their grades enough to read the professor's email.
This is like the futility of trying to make lectures more engaging for the students
who never come to lecture. No change matters because, by definition, they won't ever see it.
We have an "early alert system" for these type of issues. It doesn't work. The first time they rolled it out and I flagged students -- I got emails from the advisors wondering what it was about. Then they take their sweet time even emailing the students once they are flagged. One, it took a month to track the student down! At that point they had failed and we were past the drop deadline etc.
These type of systems are great in theory, but once you are dealing with larger numbers it all falls apart.
Oh and the average advisor load at our Uni is 300 students per advisor. Of course that assumes that we have a fully staffed office. All of our STEM advisors quit this summer/Fall, so the load is much higher and the advising is bad for students in those (more complicated ) majors.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 01, 2023, 08:38:29 AM
One, it took a month to track the student down! At that point they had failed and we were past the drop deadline etc.
This is why I include "if you miss XX number of assignments I will drop you from the class" language in my Syllabus. I do a lot of due diligence to chase down non-performing students (emails to them; to the advisor; Starfish flags, etc.) but even though we have fairly responsive advisors and student support services, there is only so much they can do.
In the student's own best interest, to preserve their GPA, I have dropped them - around 1-2 per semester (out of a classes of 80-130).
Quote from: onthefringe on February 01, 2023, 04:05:29 AM
Quote from: Liquidambar on January 31, 2023, 08:06:15 PM
Quote from: kaysixteen on January 31, 2023, 06:20:05 PM
We are talking about Prof X having a list of all his students, and their advisors/ advisor email addies. Is this info not regularly provided to all faculty? If it is, it would be very easy to spend those five seconds a kid, lets say maybe ten seconds a kid, to fire off those form emails to all the advisors of all one's own students who would be in such a situation...
No. At my school, I'd have to look up each student individually in our clunky database. It would tell me the name of their advisor. Then I'd have to look up the advisor's email in the directory. It would be super annoying. And it's not like the advisor would have any special insight into the student's issues or be able to make the student attend class.
And in most cases they have gotten this information in the syllabus, in in class announcements, as announcements on the LMS (that are sent to their email) and frequently as direct emails from the instructor. I'm unclear why you think one more email (albeit from a different person) is going to make the difference.
Same here. It's not easy to track down information about students. I'll contact advisors if a student tells me about a BIG event (e.g. needing to miss >1 week due to surgery/car crash/family issues) or when the student is needing help I can't provide (homeless, suicidal, grieving death of a loved one, etc.).
I have limited time and I'm not going to bother the advisors for each student who doesn't do the syllabus quiz.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 01, 2023, 08:38:29 AM
Oh and the average advisor load at our Uni is 300 students per advisor. Of course that assumes that we have a fully staffed office. All of our STEM advisors quit this summer/Fall, so the load is much higher and the advising is bad for students in those (more complicated ) majors.
Are these faculty advisors, or is this a university with a central advising office full of professional advising specialists?
I've seen complaints before on The Fora that the latter sort of advisors don't always know enough about a given student's field to be able to give the best possible advice. A faculty advisor is supposed to have this knowledge...but if the faculty are stretched thin, then they don't have the time to provide good advising either.
I am requested (read: required) to put students who miss assignments or aren't doing well into the student engagement portal, whereupon someone else calls them and if they don't reach the student (which is what normally happens) then they email them. I am also to email/text them myself before I report them (I refuse to call them, as I draw the line at that).
If I don't do this and students fail the class, I get in trouble. If I do so and students fail the class, I have covered my ass and get in less trouble (basically if a student fails the class for any reason or too many students withdraw, it's a black mark against me even when it has nothing to do with me--students in the second 8-week minimester each semester always drop like flies no matter what, but it still counts against the professor).
Since I teach four classes of freshmen core courses this takes a couple of hours a week and is a lot of record keeping. And I'm still on probation for failing too many students and having too many negative evaluations. Hey, it's a living! For now, anyway.
That sounds like a heavy burden of reporting, fosca. And you're mostly teaching freshmen? That would mean you've got a lot of students who are finding college a challenging transition after a lifetime of spoon feeding and hand-holding in K-12 (Or, conversely, were waved on through K-12 without that much effort to teach them anything). I would guess that your college is an open-admissions type of place.
Yep, mostly first-year (and any that aren't are unhappy that they actually have to work hard for a gen-ed course they expected to glide through). And don't forget the dual-enrolled high school students who are taking the class as well.
I'm teaching some open-enrollment and some selective, and quite frankly I can't usually tell the difference between the two types (or between them and the high school students).
We're basically also expected to wave them through; it's a science-ish class, but we're told not to have the students use citations when writing. I still expect them to do so if they copy word-for-word, but I'm expected to be told to not do it even then. If I didn't try to hold them to the same standard that I held my community-college students in rural Florida, I expect my bosses would be a lot happier with me. But I wouldn't be.
Fosca, that's terrible. But increasingly common.
I take pleasure in teaching, and I focus on that. I'm lucky that I don't have to pass students who don't deserve to pass. The question of whether one can live with oneself if one abandons academic standards is one many have to face. If teaching becomes robbed of its purpose and meaning, then it is probably healthier to do something else that pays better.
That sounds taxing for you fosca. Do you have any kind of student success / support services you can refer students to before they start failing and get sent to the student portal?
Do hold the line on citations for as long as you can.
Quote from: poiuy on February 01, 2023, 04:07:26 PM
Do hold the line on citations for as long as you can.
That is the hill I plan to die on. I learned how to quote and cite by middle school; I'll be damned if I am going to let college students get away with copying word-for-word and passing it off as their own. And if they don't know how, I require them to watch a video that tells them exactly how to quote/cite/reference and also have information on that in every assignment.
Unfortunately, I'm close enough to retirement that if I do get fired I doubt I'll get hired again for anything other than adjunct work, and I can't survive on that. But that's my hill. "The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!"--Jean-Luc Picard, "Star Trek: First Contact" (which is the best citation I can do on short notice)
Quote from: fosca on February 01, 2023, 06:48:05 PM
Quote from: poiuy on February 01, 2023, 04:07:26 PM
Do hold the line on citations for as long as you can.
That is the hill I plan to die on. I learned how to quote and cite by middle school; I'll be damned if I am going to let college students get away with copying word-for-word and passing it off as their own. And if they don't know how, I require them to watch a video that tells them exactly how to quote/cite/reference and also have information on that in every assignment.
Unfortunately, I'm close enough to retirement that if I do get fired I doubt I'll get hired again for anything other than adjunct work, and I can't survive on that. But that's my hill. "The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!"--Jean-Luc Picard, "Star Trek: First Contact" (which is the best citation I can do on short notice)
From General Robert Nivelle at the Battle of Verdun
Ils ne passeront pas. Shortened, here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_shall_not_pass#/media/File:M%C3%A9daille_de_Verdun_du_colonel_Br%C3%A9bant_(recto).jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_shall_not_pass#/media/File:M%C3%A9daille_de_Verdun_du_colonel_Br%C3%A9bant_(recto).jpg)
I've had a really cruddy week in terms of work. It seems like our whole institution is falling apart and leaderless. So I watched Darkest Hour- the movie about Churchill, Dunkirk, and the start of WW2. His "we will fight them on the beaches" speech really cheered me up.
https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1940-the-finest-hour/we-shall-fight-on-the-beaches/ (https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1940-the-finest-hour/we-shall-fight-on-the-beaches/)
We are here with you Fosca. We will fight together.
My situation is similar to fosca's except we're also required to go into the system at three points during the semester and list concerns - there's a whole range of things we have to track, from attendance to submitting weekly work, large assignments, etc. And we're supposed to go in at any time if they're ghosting, missing major assignments, or really if we suspect anything is happening. It's really time consuming and a ridiculous amount of oversight for people who are supposed to be adults. And since we too lost most of our academic advisers to better paying jobs elsewhere, very little happens.
A Comp I student--who is at my CC after two years at a regional state school--just used the term "golly goo" in a formal paper ("I was happy to see one of our roommates leave, but golly goo if I'd known who the new one would be. . . ").
WTLF? Seriously? This is where I finally gave up and stopped marking, particularly since, in addition, the paper was 1359 words on a 10% over/under 750 words target, AND the only sentence-ending periods were at the ends of page-long paragraphs (all the rest was comma splices).
<insert your own observation about why she is back home at a CC>
So much for getting up before dawn on a Sunday to quickly catch up my grading and enjoy a happy day. . . .
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 05, 2023, 04:24:33 AM
A Comp I student--who is at my CC after two years at a regional state school--just used the term "golly goo" in a formal paper ("I was happy to see one of our roommates leave, but golly goo if I'd known who the new one would be. . . ").
WTLF? Seriously? This is where I finally gave up and stopped marking, particularly since, in addition, the paper was 1359 words on a 10% over/under 750 words target, AND the only sentence-ending periods were at the ends of page-long paragraphs (all the rest was comma splices).
<insert your own observation about why she is back home at a CC>
So much for getting up before dawn on a Sunday to quickly catch up my grading and enjoy a happy day. . . .
Good golly goo this made me giggle!
Grading rule #3: Don't start grading at a time or place you can't pour a glass of something. :)
Quote from: fishbrains on February 05, 2023, 06:34:55 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 05, 2023, 04:24:33 AM
A Comp I student--who is at my CC after two years at a regional state school--just used the term "golly goo" in a formal paper ("I was happy to see one of our roommates leave, but golly goo if I'd known who the new one would be. . . ").
WTLF? Seriously? This is where I finally gave up and stopped marking, particularly since, in addition, the paper was 1359 words on a 10% over/under 750 words target, AND the only sentence-ending periods were at the ends of page-long paragraphs (all the rest was comma splices).
<insert your own observation about why she is back home at a CC>
So much for getting up before dawn on a Sunday to quickly catch up my grading and enjoy a happy day. . . .
Good golly goo this made me giggle!
Grading rule #3: Don't start grading at a time or place you can't pour a glass of something. :)
IS there such a time? :-) Actually, I don't drink any more, but there were Hershey's Kisses consumed in lieu of alcohol.
Before dawn is that strange gray area of time where you're not sure if you're still drinking from the night before or beginning a brand new day of activities.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 05, 2023, 04:24:33 AM
A Comp I student--who is at my CC after two years at a regional state school--just used the term "golly goo" in a formal paper ("I was happy to see one of our roommates leave, but golly goo if I'd known who the new one would be. . . ").
WTLF? Seriously? This is where I finally gave up and stopped marking, particularly since, in addition, the paper was 1359 words on a 10% over/under 750 words target, AND the only sentence-ending periods were at the ends of page-long paragraphs (all the rest was comma splices).
<insert your own observation about why she is back home at a CC>
So much for getting up before dawn on a Sunday to quickly catch up my grading and enjoy a happy day. . . .
Guess ChatGPT really choked on that one....
Now I need to find a way to use golly goo in a sentence today.
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
I'm SO tempted to do that.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
I am in a two or three significant digit science. When students write down the ten digits provided by their calculators, they are wrong too.
Quote from: arcturus on February 06, 2023, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
I am in a two or three significant digit science. When students write down the ten digits provided by their calculators, they are wrong too.
I missed the rounding class in junior high school. Took me a while to figure it out myself. :-)
Am glad you, too, are in a low significant digit field! What we have here is a rounding problem.
QuoteHello there, I was wondering if you could help direct me to the reading that has "Is Katniss Everdeen free to choose whom she loves (Peeta vs. Gale)" I looked through all the folders and I haven't found the reading for peeta vs Gale, perhaps it's under a different name? If you could kindly help that'll be great. thank you so much.
Me: None of the readings mention it. You have to apply your knowledge to the example.
QuoteThanks for getting back to me. Could you please tell me which hunger game sequel is this from?
Me: It's a generalization about the series.
QuoteWould you recommend that I watch the whole series?
If you don't know how to answer one of the essay prompts, pick another prompt instead! Geeze. I gave you five, and they all offer pretty wide latitude to apply the course content. (For Fora readers, the obvious connection here is to discussions of free will, but we also discuss fictionality and nonexistents, among other relevant issues.)
Quote from: arcturus on February 06, 2023, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
I am in a two or three significant digit science. When students write down the ten digits provided by their calculators, they are wrong too.
Don't get me started on the issues my students have with sig figs.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 06, 2023, 05:15:57 PM
Quote from: arcturus on February 06, 2023, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
I am in a two or three significant digit science. When students write down the ten digits provided by their calculators, they are wrong too.
Don't get me started on the issues my students have with sig figs.
I'm a theoretical mathematician.
What I want to know is if you know whether the answer is rational or irrational, and if irrational, whether it's algebraic or transcendental.
No number of sig figs will help with that.
:)
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 06, 2023, 03:22:14 PM
QuoteHello there, I was wondering if you could help direct me to the reading that has "Is Katniss Everdeen free to choose whom she loves (Peeta vs. Gale)" I looked through all the folders and I haven't found the reading for peeta vs Gale, perhaps it's under a different name? If you could kindly help that'll be great. thank you so much.
Me: None of the readings mention it. You have to apply your knowledge to the example.
QuoteThanks for getting back to me. Could you please tell me which hunger game sequel is this from?
Me: It's a generalization about the series.
QuoteWould you recommend that I watch the whole series?
If you don't know how to answer one of the essay prompts, pick another prompt instead! Geeze. I gave you five, and they all offer pretty wide latitude to apply the course content. (For Fora readers, the obvious connection here is to discussions of free will, but we also discuss fictionality and nonexistents, among other relevant issues.)
As someone who decided that in order to write a lecture the night before, I needed to read a biography of Brian Wilson (I think the entire biography contributed about a 20 seconds to the lecture) I endorse this kind of research procrastination.
Quote from: quasihumanist on February 06, 2023, 06:47:38 PM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on February 06, 2023, 05:15:57 PM
Quote from: arcturus on February 06, 2023, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: dismalist on February 06, 2023, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 06, 2023, 12:29:31 PM
Quote from: EdnaMode on February 06, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
In lecture I told them, in lab I did a demo, and on the handout (bold and underlined) it says specifically, to express [answer] as a fraction, not a decimal, because that is the standard format. Stu, who never bothers to read the instructions, expressed everything as decimals. Any bets as to whether he cries unfair when he receives his grade?
Give him his grade as a sum of fractions.
C'mon guys:
Determining a result of 1/4 is the same as determining a result of 0.25! A problem can only arise if it takes one helluva lot of significant digits to get an exact fraction.
What kinda' science are you guys in? A ten digit science? A twenty digit science? How many digits you need? Me, I'm in an only three digit science. :-)
Reminds me of my time in second grade. There was an assignment to color in half a circle, given to us kids on paper as a circle with quarter segments. I colored in two opposite quarters and teacher said it was wrong, holding up my work as an example of an incorrect answer. I knew she was wrong, and I think most other kids saw she was wrong, but she had the power. I've never forgotten from about 64 years ago.
I'm in mechanical engineering and according to certain ANSI and ASME standards, some things are always expressed as a fraction, which is why we require it because it's what's generally expected in industry. Also, depending on what they are working on, especially when it comes to GD&T standards, we can be 2-place, 3-place, or more when it comes to decimals when we're considering how round is round, how flat is flat, etc.
Ah, conventions. That's fine, conventions must be, for they are useful. But it doesn't make the kid's answer wrong. He is violating a convention.
I'm glad to hear that sometimes two and three significant digits behind the decimal place is enough for you guys! :-)
I am in a two or three significant digit science. When students write down the ten digits provided by their calculators, they are wrong too.
Don't get me started on the issues my students have with sig figs.
I'm a theoretical mathematician.
What I want to know is if you know whether the answer is rational or irrational, and if irrational, whether it's algebraic or transcendental.
No number of sig figs will help with that.
:)
Students' answers are often irrational, and rarely transcendental.
Not sure where to post this, but last night I dreamt that a student had just been added to a class. The add was quite legit (at least in my dream), but I didn't know how I could help the student catch up on instruction and assignments hu had missed.
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 07, 2023, 05:19:11 AM
Not sure where to post this, but last night I dreamt that a student had just been added to a class. The add was quite legit (at least in my dream), but I didn't know how I could help the student catch up on instruction and assignments hu had missed.
In the words of the prophet, Calvin (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/11/29).
Thanks, MW. It was the sixth week of class, a student had just dropped, so the late add brought the enrollment back to the required 13.
A student who was absent from discussion for the last 3 weeks is *shocked* that this will in fact hurt their grades.
Announcement: I am sick. You don't want this. So we will NOT meet for class today, BUT I will be posting stuff for you to watch/do instead.
I will also post an updated schedule to reflect this change.
Fishprof"
I now have 5 emails from students asking "will we have lab today?"
Dear student - if you know that you are scheduled to have a discussion later today about academic misconduct due to copy/paste plagiarism in work you previously submitted, why would you submit more plagiarized work this afternoon? Are you just testing the waters as to how many instances of misconduct I will tolerate before I assign an F? I know that you are an entitled student-athlete at this Division 1 school (because you told me so when you ghosted me about making an appointment to meet in the first place), but you will find that F's for academic misconduct do not magically disappear from your transcript here.
TAs, when I say "please keep an eye on the students while they take the exam", that means you should actually walk around and LOOK AT THEM.
So far I've caught students:
with their phones out
drinking from their water bottles (in the LAB room). This is not allowed, even when it's NOT during an exam. Ewww.
using calculators on an exam that says "no calculators"
talking!!
Just walking around and looking at them will stop 99% of this.
We are about 1/3 of the way through the semester here.
Bang #1: I have one student who has never accessed the LMS, despite numerous emails reminding them that this is not a work-at-your-own-pace course.
Bang #2 is on me: when I see the non-attendance of Bang #1, it sends me into a mild panic-attack of wondering if I have forgotten to do something really important (like attend a class!).
Bang #3: I learned today that when a student wrote in their introductory discussion post that they were excited to learn about <not the topic of this class>, they really thought they had enrolled in a course about <not the topic of this class>. They are now very frustrated, because they are not interested in <topic of this class> and do not see why they were told by their advisor to take it.
Bang #4: Several students have explained that they used the information from a Google search to answer questions because they wanted to be certain that they had the correct answer with the correct terminology. However, our questions are usually something along the lines of "what is the difference between the results from X and Y" after they have just completed tasks X and Y. We want them to reflect on their work, not repeat (and therefore plagiarize) what the definitions of X and Y are.
Bang #5: After a long evening of dealing with issues associated with students who are likely to fail my course, I am now too tired to even complete my list of their head-banging worthy accomplishments.
Rough Semester start.
1) COVID the week before (still lingering after effects);
2) Lost a week for Faculty search candidate talks;
3) Now am sick (again) and lost another lab;
So, now I have the crappy choice of
A) cancel class, again, and fall further behind; or
B) teach class, hope I don't cough up a lung mid-lecture, and violate my oft-repeated Mantra of the Covid era - "If you are sick, stay home"
Decisions, decisions.
Quote from: arcturus on February 08, 2023, 08:36:10 PM
Bang #4: Several students have explained that they used the information from a Google search to answer questions because they wanted to be certain that they had the correct answer with the correct terminology. However, our questions are usually something along the lines of "what is the difference between the results from X and Y" after they have just completed tasks X and Y. We want them to reflect on their work, not repeat (and therefore plagiarize) what the definitions of X and Y are.
Many students can't grasp the idea that
learning is about being able to
apply knowledge, specifically to
new situations. "Every question can be answered by Google" is a fundamental truth of the universe to a lot of them, so formal education is really a hoop-jumping exercise in principle, since *Google could do all of their assignments, write all of their papers, and take all of their exams.
(*Maybe with a little help from ChatGPT.)
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 04:16:39 AM
Rough Semester start.
1) COVID the week before (still lingering after effects);
2) Lost a week for Faculty search candidate talks;
3) Now am sick (again) and lost another lab;
So, now I have the crappy choice of
A) cancel class, again, and fall further behind; or
B) teach class, hope I don't cough up a lung mid-lecture, and violate my oft-repeated Mantra of the Covid era - "If you are sick, stay home"
Decisions, decisions.
I hope you feel better ASAP!
Quote from: darkstarrynight on February 09, 2023, 10:24:59 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 04:16:39 AM
Rough Semester start.
1) COVID the week before (still lingering after effects);
2) Lost a week for Faculty search candidate talks;
3) Now am sick (again) and lost another lab;
So, now I have the crappy choice of
A) cancel class, again, and fall further behind; or
B) teach class, hope I don't cough up a lung mid-lecture, and violate my oft-repeated Mantra of the Covid era - "If you are sick, stay home"
Decisions, decisions.
I hope you feel better ASAP!
Thanks. Turn out there was a third option.
C) Review the last quizzes, realize the students don't understand [fundamental idea from prerequisites], I posted an online lecture from that prerequisite course as a required review.
In the end, I stayed home, which was he correct idea, based on the couching fit that knocked me down for ~15 min right before the scheduled class time.
Win!
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on February 09, 2023, 10:24:59 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 04:16:39 AM
Rough Semester start.
1) COVID the week before (still lingering after effects);
2) Lost a week for Faculty search candidate talks;
3) Now am sick (again) and lost another lab;
So, now I have the crappy choice of
A) cancel class, again, and fall further behind; or
B) teach class, hope I don't cough up a lung mid-lecture, and violate my oft-repeated Mantra of the Covid era - "If you are sick, stay home"
Decisions, decisions.
I hope you feel better ASAP!
Thanks. Turn out there was a third option.
C) Review the last quizzes, realize the students don't understand [fundamental idea from prerequisites], I posted an online lecture from that prerequisite course as a required review.
In the end, I stayed home, which was he correct idea, based on the couching fit that knocked me down for ~15 min right before the scheduled class time.
Win!
Feel better soon! May I suggest having a little chat with autocorrect?
Quote from: Langue_doc on February 09, 2023, 02:25:40 PM
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: darkstarrynight on February 09, 2023, 10:24:59 AM
Quote from: FishProf on February 09, 2023, 04:16:39 AM
Rough Semester start.
1) COVID the week before (still lingering after effects);
2) Lost a week for Faculty search candidate talks;
3) Now am sick (again) and lost another lab;
So, now I have the crappy choice of
A) cancel class, again, and fall further behind; or
B) teach class, hope I don't cough up a lung mid-lecture, and violate my oft-repeated Mantra of the Covid era - "If you are sick, stay home"
Decisions, decisions.
I hope you feel better ASAP!
Thanks. Turn out there was a third option.
C) Review the last quizzes, realize the students don't understand [fundamental idea from prerequisites], I posted an online lecture from that prerequisite course as a required review.
In the end, I stayed home, which was he correct idea, based on the couching fit that knocked me down for ~15 min right before the scheduled class time.
Win!
Feel better soon! May I suggest having a little chat with autocorrect?
I dunno, "couching fit" describes being incapacitated pretty well.
(And yes, FishProf, best wishes for a quick and complete recovery!)
Why not both? Both is good.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 09, 2023, 05:14:10 AM
Quote from: arcturus on February 08, 2023, 08:36:10 PM
Bang #4: Several students have explained that they used the information from a Google search to answer questions because they wanted to be certain that they had the correct answer with the correct terminology. However, our questions are usually something along the lines of "what is the difference between the results from X and Y" after they have just completed tasks X and Y. We want them to reflect on their work, not repeat (and therefore plagiarize) what the definitions of X and Y are.
Many students can't grasp the idea that learning is about being able to apply knowledge, specifically to new situations. "Every question can be answered by Google" is a fundamental truth of the universe to a lot of them, so formal education is really a hoop-jumping exercise in principle, since *Google could do all of their assignments, write all of their papers, and take all of their exams.
(*Maybe with a little help from ChatGPT.)
Mostly the problem is with the order of operations. Googling something is often a pretty good way to start trying to figure something out, but a bad way to get a final answer.
To start the semester, I assigned the Gothic novel Wieland. The writing assignments for this course are due in class (no electronic submissions) and some students can't figure that out. So for the first one, I told students who didn't have a hard copy were to place them in my departmental mailbox. I explained where that mailroom was located. That was a week ago.
Today I learned that one of my students placed her homework in another colleague's box ... because that colleague's last name is Wieland.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 10, 2023, 05:11:48 AM
To start the semester, I assigned the Gothic novel Wieland. The writing assignments for this course are due in class (no electronic submissions) and some students can't figure that out. So for the first one, I told students who didn't have a hard copy were to place them in my departmental mailbox. I explained where that mailroom was located. That was a week ago.
Today I learned that one of my students placed her homework in another colleague's box ... because that colleague's last name is Wieland.
Haaaa.
Quote from: Caracal on February 10, 2023, 05:51:46 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 10, 2023, 05:11:48 AM
To start the semester, I assigned the Gothic novel Wieland. The writing assignments for this course are due in class (no electronic submissions) and some students can't figure that out. So for the first one, I told students who didn't have a hard copy were to place them in my departmental mailbox. I explained where that mailroom was located. That was a week ago.
Today I learned that one of my students placed her homework in another colleague's box ... because that colleague's last name is Wieland.
Haaaa.
Someone get that student a nap!
Quote from: fishbrains on February 10, 2023, 07:57:06 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 10, 2023, 05:51:46 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 10, 2023, 05:11:48 AM
To start the semester, I assigned the Gothic novel Wieland. The writing assignments for this course are due in class (no electronic submissions) and some students can't figure that out. So for the first one, I told students who didn't have a hard copy were to place them in my departmental mailbox. I explained where that mailroom was located. That was a week ago.
Today I learned that one of my students placed her homework in another colleague's box ... because that colleague's last name is Wieland.
Haaaa.
Someone get that student a nap!
At least it's an adorable mistake...
Quote from: RatGuy on February 10, 2023, 05:11:48 AM
To start the semester, I assigned the Gothic novel Wieland. The writing assignments for this course are due in class (no electronic submissions) and some students can't figure that out. So for the first one, I told students who didn't have a hard copy were to place them in my departmental mailbox. I explained where that mailroom was located. That was a week ago.
Today I learned that one of my students placed her homework in another colleague's box ... because that colleague's last name is Wieland.
I'm sure you have your reasons for that choice...but surely
Castle of Otranto would be more fun for your students to read. Of course if it's an American literature class, then
Wieland it must be.
I recently read Wieland for the first time. Oh, the suffering. And that was just me. I'm glad I don't have to teach it.
Quote from: Hegemony on February 12, 2023, 01:11:47 AM
I recently read Wieland for the first time. Oh, the suffering. And that was just me. I'm glad I don't have to teach it.
I felt the same way when I read it out of curiosity some years back. But it seems to be considered enough of a milestone in early American literature to be still taught.
Castle of Otranto has Gothic castles, ghosts in armor, skeletons prophesying doom, and much, much more! Hollywood could probably make it into a movie that people would actually watch, and still be mostly faithful to the plot.
Context: one month into the semester, masters course, graduate student is not new, emailed me late last night, student has turned in three assignments late. I can check how long students spend on the materials and submission portal, and this student logged in last night (three days after the due date) and did everything in under 10 minutes. It was definitely not graduate level work.
Student: I cannot figure out when assignments are due. Please help me so I do not lose points.
Me: Here are the 37 places (I exaggerate, there are at least 7 places though) on the LMS where I put due dates, plus they are in the syllabus and my weekly emails. Rather than worrying about losing points, you should be interested in learning the material. I do not recommend doing an entire assignment late and putting in about five minutes worth of work.
Student: I see what you are saying.
This morning (start of week 5).
"Dear Professor,
Thursday I had come across a difficulty within my entire WSU account. I am working closely with June at the registrars office to get this problems work out. Your course has yet to appear back on my blackboard, refraining me from doing any of the work you have assignments to us last Tuesday. I am asking that I get an extension on any of the work given to us within this past week if applicable.
Thank you for your understanding,"
Translation: I didn't pay my bill, got my account suspended, and now I will feign ignorance so you won't penalize me.
Me in lab: "This is a lab coats, safety glasses *at all times* lab . . . . water bottles in your bag or out in the hall . . . "
Stu: takes big drink from water bottle.
Me: You can't do that in here. Please put the bottle in your bag or in the hall.
Stu: *smirks*
I took their bottle and put it in the hall. We'll see if it stays there.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 13, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
Me in lab: "This is a lab coats, safety glasses *at all times* lab . . . . water bottles in your bag or out in the hall . . . "
Stu: takes big drink from water bottle.
Me: You can't do that in here. Please put the bottle in your bag or in the hall.
Stu: *smirks*
I took their bottle and put it in the hall. We'll see if it stays there.
I have in my syllabus that if they violate lab safety rules (including no food or drink) they are banned from the lab and they might as well drop the class because if they can't do the lab work, they cannot pass. And the students can only access the lab via swipe card so I can prevent them from entering. Yes, another student could let them in, but it's also in the syllabus and in the official lab safety rules for the school of engineering that if a student allows entry to another student who does not have the right to be in there, then they may lose their lab privileges also. I caught students eating in my* lab once, horribly close to a caustic chemical bath, and banned them. They were students in another professor's class and he supported their ban. It may sound harsh but many/most of our labs, including mine, have equipment and/or chemicals that could cause serious bodily harm if safety protocol isn't followed.
*I say 'my' lab because all of our labs have a faculty member who is in charge of safety, equipment, repairs, EHS inspections, etc. in that lab even if we're not the only people who teach in there. If I were teaching in someone else's lab, I'd notify the person in charge of that lab if anything was broken, or missing, or if I needed any help with equipment, etc. It's just easier to have one person who coordinates everything for a particular lab.
If these lab students are trying for careers in places where following protocols are necessary to prevent disasters from happening, then it's well for us all that they don't get to advance without learning to take their protocols seriously. Keep it up, EdnaMode!
Quote from: apl68 on February 13, 2023, 12:48:04 PM
If these lab students are trying for careers in places where following protocols are necessary to prevent disasters from happening, then it's well for us all that they don't get to advance without learning to take their protocols seriously. Keep it up, EdnaMode!
Thanks. I don't want to be a great big meanie, but sometimes we all have to come across that way to keep the students (and faculty) safe. We need them to think about safety all the time. A combination of our location, and our industrial partners who hire a lot of our students, leads to many of our graduates ending up working in high-risk environments including foundries, the oil and gas industry, and industries that make large moving and/or spinning things so safety is paramount if they are out in the field or in a manufacturing facility, not just a safe little cubicle. Unfortunately, we had a former student killed in an industrial accident a couple years ago. It was something that was caused by a series of human errors and was ultimately preventable. Still breaks my heart, he was a fine young man, a hard worker, who almost always had a smile on his face.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 13, 2023, 09:43:33 AM
Me in lab: "This is a lab coats, safety glasses *at all times* lab . . . . water bottles in your bag or out in the hall . . . "
Stu: takes big drink from water bottle.
Me: You can't do that in here. Please put the bottle in your bag or in the hall.
Stu: *smirks*
Oh, wow.
Why do people act this way?
And that is why EdnaMode insists on "No capes!" Keep up the good work Edna- from a fellow safety stickler.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 13, 2023, 04:31:48 PM
And that is why EdnaMode insists on "No capes!" Keep up the good work Edna- from a fellow safety stickler.
Definitely no capes 😁
Is it SOP to suspend online course access mid-semester for tuition snafus? Bad look.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 13, 2023, 06:12:28 PM
Is it SOP to suspend online course access mid-semester for tuition snafus? Bad look.
Usually for me, it's because students haven't turned in their vaccine documentation (long predates COVID and in some cases I think they are vaccinated and just haven't done paperwork despite repeated warnings) but it usually happens in the first couple weeks.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 13, 2023, 06:12:28 PM
Is it SOP to suspend online course access mid-semester for tuition snafus? Bad look.
Here, they get booted from the course by the reg office. But that's in the first week or so.
We have a 3 day weekend coming up!
How many of your students do you think will be absent on Friday?
I'm guessing the Friday afternoon discussions will be very sparsely attended. And that I'll get emails begging me to excuse them from the participation points because they HAD to leave early to be on vacation.
Quote from: kaysixteen on February 13, 2023, 06:12:28 PM
Is it SOP to suspend online course access mid-semester for tuition snafus? Bad look.
We had a couple of fairly intense meetings where we suggested that retention (or the lack thereof) had a lot to do with this kind of crap. To the administration's credit, they made some helpful changes to the college's processes.
Student who scored the lowest score on the first exam comes up to me after class. " My parents gave me a cruise for my birthday. Nonrefundable. It's during the week of our next exam. Can I take the exam the day after everyone since I don't get back until 6pm on exam day?"
I actually said yes. Given that on the first exam she scored in the 30s, it will make no difference. I might as well get the brownie points for "being accommodating". Good luck studying for the exam while on the cruise.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 16, 2023, 07:45:29 AM
Student who scored the lowest score on the first exam comes up to me after class. " My parents gave me a cruise for my birthday. Nonrefundable. It's during the week of our next exam. Can I take the exam the day after everyone since I don't get back until 6pm on exam day?"
I actually said yes. Given that on the first exam she scored in the 30s, it will make no difference. I might as well get the brownie points for "being accommodating". Good luck studying for the exam while on the cruise.
No good deed goes unpunished. Hope it doesn't come back to haunt you.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 16, 2023, 07:45:29 AM
Student who scored the lowest score on the first exam comes up to me after class. " My parents gave me a cruise for my birthday. Nonrefundable. It's during the week of our next exam. Can I take the exam the day after everyone since I don't get back until 6pm on exam day?"
I actually said yes. Given that on the first exam she scored in the 30s, it will make no difference. I might as well get the brownie points for "being accommodating". Good luck studying for the exam while on the cruise.
Sounds like a plan to me. I would be tempted to put the exam online and say "take it while on the cruise". You know they have wifi.
A 12 week Comp II class of mine started this week. It was originally a full-semester class, but with only 2 enrolled at the January start date, Admin changed it to a late-start, with a "make" number of 8 students. I was sure it wouldn't go, with only 5 enrolled up til late last week--when it popped to 8. Dammit: I scrambled and did the prep work, condensed lectures for this week, etc. (After all, it was included in my load, and full pay for 8 students? Yes, please. And I'm already on campus at the scheduled time.)
Only 6 showed up on Tuesday. One emailed before class to say she was overloaded and would drop. Another just didn't show or contact me. I promptly went into Navigate, to see what the hell I'm working with, and found:
1.--third try at 102 (got a W, then F); 0.67 GPA; academic probation (He was the no-show.)
2.-- 2.85 GPA, but she's been taking 1 class a semester, off and on, since 2005 (with plenty of D/F/Ws in there)
3.--dual enrolled (17 years old); 3.0 GPA
4.--dual enrolled (17); 2.85 GPA
5.--second try at 102 (previous F); all F's last semester in 4 classes; 0.52 GPA; second semester academic probation
6.--2.77 GPA; adult student
7.--dual enrolled (16); 1:00 GPA; academic probation
I give #3, 4, and 6 a half-a-prayer of passing. Today I only had 4 of them show up.
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
SIGH. I love the mission of an open-door CC, on paper. In reality, not so much.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
A 12 week Comp II class of mine started this week. It was originally a full-semester class, but with only 2 enrolled at the January start date, Admin changed it to a late-start, with a "make" number of 8 students. I was sure it wouldn't go, with only 5 enrolled up til late last week--when it popped to 8. Dammit: I scrambled and did the prep work, condensed lectures for this week, etc. (After all, it was included in my load, and full pay for 8 students? Yes, please. And I'm already on campus at the scheduled time.)
Only 6 showed up on Tuesday. One emailed before class to say she was overloaded and would drop. Another just didn't show or contact me. I promptly went into Navigate, to see what the hell I'm working with, and found:
1.--third try at 102 (got a W, then F); 0.67 GPA; academic probation (He was the no-show.)
2.-- 2.85 GPA, but she's been taking 1 class a semester, off and on, since 2005 (with plenty of D/F/Ws in there)
3.--dual enrolled (17 years old); 3.0 GPA
4.--dual enrolled (17); 2.85 GPA
5.--second try at 102 (previous F); all F's last semester in 4 classes; 0.52 GPA; second semester academic probation
6.--2.77 GPA; adult student
7.--dual enrolled (16); 1:00 GPA; academic probation
I give #3, 4, and 6 a half-a-prayer of passing. Today I only had 4 of them show up.
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
SIGH. I love the mission of an open-door CC, on paper. In reality, not so much.
As I say to my kids, "Stereotypes exist for a reason." (Not that everyone
fits a stereotype, but
enough people do to create a pattern.)
Quote from: mythbuster on February 16, 2023, 07:45:29 AM
Student who scored the lowest score on the first exam comes up to me after class. " My parents gave me a cruise for my birthday. Nonrefundable. It's during the week of our next exam. Can I take the exam the day after everyone since I don't get back until 6pm on exam day?"
I actually said yes. Given that on the first exam she scored in the 30s, it will make no difference. I might as well get the brownie points for "being accommodating". Good luck studying for the exam while on the cruise.
I wonder if the student's parents surprised them with that cruise without bothering to ask about their school schedule first. Student might have been in the position of either asking for a different exam date or facing conflict with family for rejecting their nonrefundable gift.
Smallcleanrat, I think you have guessed correctly. Th really sad part is that this is a senior, so the impact of failing is that they will not graduate on time. So the cost of an extra semester is likely to be more than the cost of a discount week long cruise.
QuoteThe really sad part is that this is a senior, so the impact of failing is that they will not graduate on time. So the cost of an extra semester is likely to be more than the cost of a discount week long cruise.
Perfectly rational [self interested] behavior on the part of the student:
--Student is not paying all of tuition. Parents and taxpayers are paying some to much.
--Both the extra semester at college and the week long cruise are fun.
--By postponing exam, student gets fun of college for an extra semester + fun of cruise, at low to zero cost.
--She didn't get the cruise with certainty, on account of the exam conflict. She got a lottery ticket for extra fun on a cruise or a mess with parents. She gambled and won.
The instructors [we] call the odds! :-)
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
A 12 week Comp II class of mine started this week. It was originally a full-semester class, but with only 2 enrolled at the January start date, Admin changed it to a late-start, with a "make" number of 8 students. I was sure it wouldn't go, with only 5 enrolled up til late last week--when it popped to 8. Dammit: I scrambled and did the prep work, condensed lectures for this week, etc. (After all, it was included in my load, and full pay for 8 students? Yes, please. And I'm already on campus at the scheduled time.)
Only 6 showed up on Tuesday. One emailed before class to say she was overloaded and would drop. Another just didn't show or contact me. I promptly went into Navigate, to see what the hell I'm working with, and found:
1.--third try at 102 (got a W, then F); 0.67 GPA; academic probation (He was the no-show.)
2.-- 2.85 GPA, but she's been taking 1 class a semester, off and on, since 2005 (with plenty of D/F/Ws in there)
3.--dual enrolled (17 years old); 3.0 GPA
4.--dual enrolled (17); 2.85 GPA
5.--second try at 102 (previous F); all F's last semester in 4 classes; 0.52 GPA; second semester academic probation
6.--2.77 GPA; adult student
7.--dual enrolled (16); 1:00 GPA; academic probation
I give #3, 4, and 6 a half-a-prayer of passing. Today I only had 4 of them show up.
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
SIGH. I love the mission of an open-door CC, on paper. In reality, not so much.
Damn! I feel your pain.
I got two gems yesterday, within an hour, from the same LVL Comp II class. This is long, but remember, I teach to provide amusement for The Fora*:
Hi you doing professor, this is xxx xxxx. I was wondering if I could get until 9:00pm to finish the assignment that was assigned in class today. The reason is because I'm at work right now and don't get off till 7:00pm, so I can't access my textbook at the moment to start on the assignment. Again, this is xxx xxxx and I hope you have a good rest of your day.
So: you're taking a live class while you're at work? And your boss is OK with it? Um, okay. . . . that still leaves the no-late work policy, and the fact that you've known from the beginning that you need your book in EVERY class, so we can work from it, and the fact that you've been reminded about this in-class assignment every class meeting since last Friday, and the fact that you were given nearly the entire 2-3 p.m. class period plus extra time until 5 p.m. to do this work (which took my F2F sections about 20 minutes to finish), and . . . . oh, never mind. Nope--I was done grading everyone else's work before 6 p.m. (because the majority of them turned it in during/shortly after class). You're not special (at least, not in the way you want to be); no extension.
Then, while I was answering that one, I got this:
A plea for mercy.
Dear Professor,
I am writing to you today to bring to your attention a mistake that I have made in regards to my Rhetorical Analysis Argument Essay Assignment. Unfortunately, I have spent all of my time working on an essay that was not the intended topic. It was only today in class that I realized my error after re-reading the assignment instructions sheet.
In particular, I had been writing about [article on an topic unrelated to assignment, in a chapter 100 pages away from the one they could choose from]. Upon subsequent reading of the instructions, I only glanced past this portion assuming that I knew which source to use. Regrettably, this is where I made my mistake.
Therefore, I would like to request your permission to use [irrelevant article] for my essay. I have looked through most of the case books while choosing, mistakenly believing that they were all options. I found the use of the concepts we have discussed in class to be very clear in [author's] writing, and it has made for very good topic.
You've had this assignment for weeks; we've talked about it repeatedly in class; I've mentioned the various articles you could use, by name and author, over and over; and. . . NO. Just no. And "mercy" has nothing to do with it.
-----
* At least, it seems that's my reason for teaching. I'm sure as hell not teaching much to anybody in recent years.
Stu 1 needs to drop. They are double-booked and won't be able to pass.
Stu 2 has an essay from a different class they are hoping you'll accept. My bet is they are one of your dual-enrollment high school students.
Good Lord, ALH! You deserve some well-earned treat for dealing with this crap. Well, we all do! :)
This semester has seen the title of worst student email/issues change hands FIVE times. It had been held by a single student for 10 years before now. Brackets are my in-head responses)
"Hi my name is (Student) I have a couple questions and explain some stuff
My question is why I have an E [everybody does, it is you current grade in the class and you have done NO WORK] if I scored a 80 on the quiz [which quiz? The SYLLABUS QUIZ] and I'm new to the class I don't understand? [New to the class? It is week 6 of 16!!] [Fact Check - NOPE, you took the Syllabus Quiz on the 28th of January], Next I don't see any assignments or anything is there any assignments or something to do or is this class start late? [You didn't get 100% on the syllabus quiz, ergo you can't see any other assignments. This is posted EVERYWHERE - see below for example]
I also want to explain something about my self um I do want to apologize because I know I've should've send you an email in the beginning but I am a first time mom I am also a full time student but also working with [Disabilities Office] I do have accommodations I'll send you it but I just had a baby my new born is very colic and have GI and eyes issue does go to specialist out of the city so I do try get my assignments all done but I do also myself have health issues where I see neurologist / urologist / opthomoligist/ GI etc some are in the city but some are out that's why I'm doing online classes since my pregnancy. But my neruo does not have an exact diagnosis yet my [Disabilities Office Person] knows about it. Is there something that you and I work with or have an idea for each assignments or homework. [Disabilities Office Policy - No accommodation letter, no accommodations]
Thank you [Student]"
I am at a bit of a loss as to how to phrase the inevitable. 1) You aren't paying attention, 2) you are way behind, 3) No letter = no accommodation, 4) Accommodations aren't retroactive, 5) Maybe you should drop.
Example of one of 9 notices about the syllabus quiz - this was an announcement posted 2d after [Student] took the quiz and got 80%.
"The Syllabus is now available in INFORMATION.
There is also a video to watch (Top 10 Things to know).
Read the syllabus, watch the video and then TAKE THE SYLLABUS QUIZ!.
You MUST Get 100% on the Quiz in order to access ANY other course items.
This will GO AWAY and you will be unable to complete the course on 1Feb23."
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
A 12 week Comp II class of mine started this week. It was originally a full-semester class, but with only 2 enrolled at the January start date, Admin changed it to a late-start, with a "make" number of 8 students. I was sure it wouldn't go, with only 5 enrolled up til late last week--when it popped to 8. Dammit: I scrambled and did the prep work, condensed lectures for this week, etc. (After all, it was included in my load, and full pay for 8 students? Yes, please. And I'm already on campus at the scheduled time.)
Only 6 showed up on Tuesday. One emailed before class to say she was overloaded and would drop. Another just didn't show or contact me. I promptly went into Navigate, to see what the hell I'm working with, and found:
1.--third try at 102 (got a W, then F); 0.67 GPA; academic probation (He was the no-show.)
2.-- 2.85 GPA, but she's been taking 1 class a semester, off and on, since 2005 (with plenty of D/F/Ws in there)
3.--dual enrolled (17 years old); 3.0 GPA
4.--dual enrolled (17); 2.85 GPA
5.--second try at 102 (previous F); all F's last semester in 4 classes; 0.52 GPA; second semester academic probation
6.--2.77 GPA; adult student
7.--dual enrolled (16); 1:00 GPA; academic probation
I give #3, 4, and 6 a half-a-prayer of passing. Today I only had 4 of them show up.
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
SIGH. I love the mission of an open-door CC, on paper. In reality, not so much.
I taught a similar class about four years ago. I have no message of hope. Enjoyed the easy grading though. It wasn't my worst experience in the classroom, but it was hard to stay motivated. Hang tough.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
I haven't ever taught at a CC, but what's the concern? It sounds like a bunch of these students are likely to just fail themselves by either vanishing or failing to turn anything in. Those students almost never complain in my classes. What's to complain about? As for the others, well, you can do a lot of really intensive writing work in class...and you can really spend a lot of time on their work. Some of them might actually get better at writing...
I am teaching an online class I have taught a number of times before, including during the pandemic. It's about the Bible, and so it typically attracts motivated students who are, obviously, interested in the Bible. But this semester I am just tearing my hair out. For the first time so many students are just relying on their background vague familiarity with certain parts of the Bible to do the assignments.
For instance, I may instruct, "Read the chapter by Smith about how Passover was celebrated at the time of Jesus. How does this enrich your understanding of the Last Supper?"
And they will write, "The Last Supper was a very important meal. It was the last supper that Jesus had. He was with his friends the disciples. It is good to eat food with friends. This shows that we should all share food with each other for community."
Read. the. chapter. Apply. the. chapter.
Is the semester over yet?
Quote from: Caracal on February 18, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
I haven't ever taught at a CC, but what's the concern? It sounds like a bunch of these students are likely to just fail themselves by either vanishing or failing to turn anything in. Those students almost never complain in my classes. What's to complain about? As for the others, well, you can do a lot of really intensive writing work in class...and you can really spend a lot of time on their work. Some of them might actually get better at writing...
It's hard to get motivated when just two or three students show up. And often students at this level aren't interested in "intensive writing work" or engaging with each other. This makes for some very long class periods. It's not the end of the world, but it's hard to maintain optimism.
It's kind of like doing a session at a conference and only having two people show up.
Quote from: Caracal on February 18, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
I haven't ever taught at a CC, but what's the concern? It sounds like a bunch of these students are likely to just fail themselves by either vanishing or failing to turn anything in. Those students almost never complain in my classes. What's to complain about? As for the others, well, you can do a lot of really intensive writing work in class...and you can really spend a lot of time on their work. Some of them might actually get better at writing...
I agree in theory: it's less for me to grade when they drop, and they don't usually have the gumption to complain. My concern is, Admin immediately takes the position that if even one student drops, it's automatically the fault of the faculty member: we haven't done enough to make sure the student will succeed, up to and including passing those who haven't earned a passing grade. If they D/F/W because they never show up to class, never turn in an assignment, are functionally illiterate, or for any other reason, all that matters to Admin is that the faculty member has failed. I certainly have the documentation to prove otherwise, if/when I get called on the carpet for this group, but I don't relish the accusations or having to defend myself.
In this particular group, after a week with them, and after reading their diagnostics and first discussion board, I'm seriously thinking that if I have ONE left by May 1, it's going to be a miracle. Their lack of engagement is far surpassed by the poor quality of their basic skills.
Fishbrains, it's good to know I'm not the only one who's had a mess like this. I'll do my usual routine with them, and if they can't/won't do their part, it will be on them. The pay's the same either way, at this point, which is motivation enough.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 19, 2023, 08:37:34 AM
Quote from: Caracal on February 18, 2023, 01:40:35 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 16, 2023, 10:22:45 AM
I anticipate a genuine sh*tshow before this is over, and I put as much in writing to my chair yesterday. This is not likely to end well. Oh, and two of these registered the Monday before class began; two were registered for the original 16-week section; and the others all registered online between Thursday noon and Saturday midnight.
I haven't ever taught at a CC, but what's the concern? It sounds like a bunch of these students are likely to just fail themselves by either vanishing or failing to turn anything in. Those students almost never complain in my classes. What's to complain about? As for the others, well, you can do a lot of really intensive writing work in class...and you can really spend a lot of time on their work. Some of them might actually get better at writing...
I agree in theory: it's less for me to grade when they drop, and they don't usually have the gumption to complain. My concern is, Admin immediately takes the position that if even one student drops, it's automatically the fault of the faculty member: we haven't done enough to make sure the student will succeed, up to and including passing those who haven't earned a passing grade. If they D/F/W because they never show up to class, never turn in an assignment, are functionally illiterate, or for any other reason, all that matters to Admin is that the faculty member has failed. I certainly have the documentation to prove otherwise, if/when I get called on the carpet for this group, but I don't relish the accusations or having to defend myself.
In this particular group, after a week with them, and after reading their diagnostics and first discussion board, I'm seriously thinking that if I have ONE left by May 1, it's going to be a miracle. Their lack of engagement is far surpassed by the poor quality of their basic skills.
Fishbrains, it's good to know I'm not the only one who's had a mess like this. I'll do my usual routine with them, and if they can't/won't do their part, it will be on them. The pay's the same either way, at this point, which is motivation enough.
Adding to this, having taught at a CC - I like to say that CCs are not just a job, they are an adventure. I love the students, the diversity, the feeling of really making a difference in a student's life as opposed to teaching a well-resourced kid whose parents give them everything and, let's face it, they will graduate no matter what.
Students come to CC with their own young families, jobs, under-resourced educations, and so on. So I know for myself I feel an extra sense of duty in helping them when they are in my classroom because education is their, and their families', tickets to economic and political stability and power. (Don't talk to me about manual labor jobs right now.)
So yes, students drop out because of reasons that have nothing to do with faculty. They couldn't quite balance their job and school, and they had to make hay while the sun shines so they chose their job. Their children needed more attention. Their elderly relatives needed help and theirs is not a culture where you put family in a nursing home. Their high school was under-resourced and under-funded and they graduated without the math and language skills expected, so they are struggling and just don't have the time or emotional energy to put into their classwork.
Admin (and the state) loves to fund *innovation* but hates to fund boring stuff like... smaller classes. Counselors. Tutors. Basic needs centers so students can get food, housing, child care and elder care. Our state has money coming out of its ears for "equity" but can't use it on the things struggling students really need because it's not *innovative.*
Quote from: Hegemony on February 18, 2023, 09:06:27 PM
I am teaching an online class I have taught a number of times before, including during the pandemic. It's about the Bible, and so it typically attracts motivated students who are, obviously, interested in the Bible. But this semester I am just tearing my hair out. For the first time so many students are just relying on their background vague familiarity with certain parts of the Bible to do the assignments.
For instance, I may instruct, "Read the chapter by Smith about how Passover was celebrated at the time of Jesus. How does this enrich your understanding of the Last Supper?"
And they will write, "The Last Supper was a very important meal. It was the last supper that Jesus had. He was with his friends the disciples. It is good to eat food with friends. This shows that we should all share food with each other for community."
Read. the. chapter. Apply. the. chapter.
Is the semester over yet?
I ran into this type of thing in my own classes until I started giving them the "4 questions" model based on Kohl's Experiential Learning.
1) Describe the example (in this case, the Last Supper).
2) Tie it to a theory from the class reading (Smith).
3) What do you agree with in terms of Smith? Disagree? Why?
4) How has this changed your thinking about the Last Supper?
They had to thoroughly answer all 4 questions to get full credit.
Ciao, that sounds like a useful method. The mind-boggling aspect for me is that students in previous years (even last year) all answered the question satisfactorily. And the actual question is even easier than this fake one I made up. It's just this year's group of students who are trying to get by with minimal effort. That's not even to mention the students I mentioned in the other thread, who are having full-blown crises.
There are also very easy discussion points, and this week 13 of the 40 students never even went over to the discussion board and wrote the most minimal thing. Although I give points for anything semi-coherent in the discussion, if they miss all the discussion points, they will probably not have enough points to pass the class. I always have a couple of stragglers, but 13 is a new phenomenon. I even message and email all the missing students, even though we are a big faceless university where people are usually left to sink or swim. When I send them messages, I either get "Oh yeah, I forgot," or silence. But the "Oh yeah, I forgot" people miss the subsequent weeks too. (And get emailed again. To no avail.)
Quote from: Hegemony on February 19, 2023, 05:26:30 PM
Ciao, that sounds like a useful method. The mind-boggling aspect for me is that students in previous years (even last year) all answered the question satisfactorily. And the actual question is even easier than this fake one I made up. It's just this year's group of students who are trying to get by with minimal effort. That's not even to mention the students I mentioned in the other thread, who are having full-blown crises.
There are also very easy discussion points, and this week 13 of the 40 students never even went over to the discussion board and wrote the most minimal thing. Although I give points for anything semi-coherent in the discussion, if they miss all the discussion points, they will probably not have enough points to pass the class. I always have a couple of stragglers, but 13 is a new phenomenon. I even message and email all the missing students, even though we are a big faceless university where people are usually left to sink or swim. When I send them messages, I either get "Oh yeah, I forgot," or silence. But the "Oh yeah, I forgot" people miss the subsequent weeks too. (And get emailed again. To no avail.)
Are you teaching online? I found it was really hard to "acculturate" students when teaching online to my expectations. They would see substandard work from their peers on the discussion boards and then wonder why they lost points. Yeah, you all lost points. Try again. Answer the 4 questions.
For responses, I would also give them parameters as to what counted as an acceptable response.
Somehow in person, because they discussed their homework in class, they seemed to more quickly engage in what was needed and, when hearing their classmates discuss them, would be more thoughtful and creative to "keep up" in future assignments. Even if they were getting 10/10.
Am I wrong for requesting that students submit hard copies of their homework? Handwritten or typed, doesn't matter -- I just don't want you emailing it to me. Of the students who completed today's assignment, about third said " the printer at my apartment / greek housing / dorm / library / mom's house wasn't working, can I just email you?"
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 09:58:00 AM
Am I wrong for requesting that students submit hard copies of their homework? Handwritten or typed, doesn't matter -- I just don't want you emailing it to me. Of the students who completed today's assignment, about third said " the printer at my apartment / greek housing / dorm / library / mom's house wasn't working, can I just email you?"
I stopped asking for hard copies of assignments pre-Covid, when my school started charging students for printing; it became inequitable. The grading function on our LMS makes grading efficient, and assignments and my comments never get lost.
Quote from: sinenomine on February 20, 2023, 10:07:17 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 09:58:00 AM
Am I wrong for requesting that students submit hard copies of their homework? Handwritten or typed, doesn't matter -- I just don't want you emailing it to me. Of the students who completed today's assignment, about third said " the printer at my apartment / greek housing / dorm / library / mom's house wasn't working, can I just email you?"
I stopped asking for hard copies of assignments pre-Covid, when my school started charging students for printing; it became inequitable. The grading function on our LMS makes grading efficient, and assignments and my comments never get lost.
Point taken, but I don't require them to print out the sheets themselves. I will distribute a worksheet in class, and I'll upload the word document to Blackboard. That way, students who would rather not handwrite their answers, or those who lose the assignment, or those who weren't in class can use the online document to complete the assignment. Yet even when the instructions indicate that the assignment is due in class and that we'll be using them as part of our class exercise, I'm seeing more who simply show up and say "oh I couldn't print it" when indeed they could have just filled it in by hand.
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: sinenomine on February 20, 2023, 10:07:17 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on February 20, 2023, 09:58:00 AM
Am I wrong for requesting that students submit hard copies of their homework? Handwritten or typed, doesn't matter -- I just don't want you emailing it to me. Of the students who completed today's assignment, about third said " the printer at my apartment / greek housing / dorm / library / mom's house wasn't working, can I just email you?"
I stopped asking for hard copies of assignments pre-Covid, when my school started charging students for printing; it became inequitable. The grading function on our LMS makes grading efficient, and assignments and my comments never get lost.
Point taken, but I don't require them to print out the sheets themselves. I will distribute a worksheet in class, and I'll upload the word document to Blackboard. That way, students who would rather not handwrite their answers, or those who lose the assignment, or those who weren't in class can use the online document to complete the assignment. Yet even when the instructions indicate that the assignment is due in class and that we'll be using them as part of our class exercise, I'm seeing more who simply show up and say "oh I couldn't print it" when indeed they could have just filled it in by hand.
You could tell them to upload the assignment so they could look at their submission online. I'm a huge fan of Gradescope for that reason. They can have a hard copy too, but it's their preference for what to bring to class.
This thesis prospectus I am reading is seriously poorly written. I am being told by the committee chair that they are going to push it through (give the student a pass at the prospectus meeting) no matter what I think. I'm not going to choose this as my hill to die on. But I'm having a seriously hard time forcing myself to slog through this since my judgement matters not.
Me: All right -- so, you have the midterm next week. It will take place in person, during class, and on paper.
Student (raising hand frantically): I have a question!
Me: Yes?
Student: Will the exam be online or in person?
Me: It will take place in person, during class, and on paper.
Student: So not online?
Me: That is correct, not online.
Sounds like the student was incredulous that the exam was actually, really-and-truly-and-honestly going to be online. Must have been a lot of wishful thinking otherwise that it was painful to have to let go.
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2023, 12:50:54 PM
Sounds like the student was incredulous that the exam was actually, really-and-truly-and-honestly going to be online. Must have been a lot of wishful thinking otherwise that it was painful to have to let go.
Maybe, but I often have students who just get anxious that they could be misunderstanding something. I think it might sometimes be a result of dealing with uncaring bureaucracies where someone will say something in a confusing way and if you misunderstand it, all the consequences fall on them.
Quote from: Caracal on February 23, 2023, 04:25:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2023, 12:50:54 PM
Sounds like the student was incredulous that the exam was actually, really-and-truly-and-honestly going to be online. Must have been a lot of wishful thinking otherwise that it was painful to have to let go.
Maybe, but I often have students who just get anxious that they could be misunderstanding something. I think it might sometimes be a result of dealing with uncaring bureaucracies where someone will say something in a confusing way and if you misunderstand it, all the consequences fall on them.
I think that anxiety is a good explanation, for as exasperating as it can be from an instructor's perspective. The world through which my students navigate, especially in my large, bureaucracy-heavy university, is often capricious, and they know they bear the risk, not the institution.
What part of "The TA meetings are mandatory" makes it sound like you don't need to be there?
I'm looking at you, brand-new TA, who is also behind on grading. Trust me, you really need to come talk with me.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 23, 2023, 03:40:08 PM
What part of "The TA meetings are mandatory" makes it sound like you don't need to be there?
I'm looking at you, brand-new TA, who is also behind on grading. Trust me, you really need to come talk with me.
I see a kindred spirit with my TA who didn't show up to the lab. When I got back to my office, I see that he'd sent an email saying he wasn't coming to the lab because he had a midterm to study for. I guess the prof must have announced that midterm a couple of hours before the lab for the next day so my TA had no other time to study........
Quote from: traductio on February 23, 2023, 01:30:04 PM
Quote from: Caracal on February 23, 2023, 04:25:10 AM
Quote from: apl68 on February 22, 2023, 12:50:54 PM
Sounds like the student was incredulous that the exam was actually, really-and-truly-and-honestly going to be online. Must have been a lot of wishful thinking otherwise that it was painful to have to let go.
Maybe, but I often have students who just get anxious that they could be misunderstanding something. I think it might sometimes be a result of dealing with uncaring bureaucracies where someone will say something in a confusing way and if you misunderstand it, all the consequences fall on them.
I think that anxiety is a good explanation, for as exasperating as it can be from an instructor's perspective. The world through which my students navigate, especially in my large, bureaucracy-heavy university, is often capricious, and they know they bear the risk, not the institution.
You're probably right. They do live in such an anxious world. When you're consumed by anxiety, your thinking starts looking addled to others. The growing levels of substance abuse noted on another thread may also have something to do with it.
Stu is taking, for the second time, a 100-level course I teach. He is a senior. He needs a C in this course to graduate (and for whatever reason, my institution of higher learning lets students go on to the next course if they earn a D in the prereq, they just have to go back and retake the prereq at a time of their choosing). Stu just earned 12/20 on an assignment the majority of the actual first-years are easily earning 20/20 on because he didn't bother to follow the instructions. He currently has an overall grade of D. The average grade in the course is around 80%. He's a personable young man but if he thinks I'm going to give him a grade he didn't earn, he should have learned that the first time around, or maybe taken the course with someone else who may be influenced by puppy dog eyes and "I NEED to graduate!" He can do the work, he could do it the first time through, he just keeps making poor choices.
I caught someone cheating using my sleuthing skills. This student posted questions from my test to a 'certain' website (where they solve them for you) during an online test and did it in the stupidest way- posting pictures of the actual test (stu's screen). And of course they only match to one individual. Why do they waste my time?
Stu has missed three weeks of class due to a medical concern. And said they will be missing a fourth.
They said they are "feeling motivated" and will "work hard to catch up".
They have missed: 3 midterms, 3 weeks of [pottery labs], 3 [baskets labs], at least 2 quizzes, etc.
And there are only 3 weeks left. One of which they will still be absent.
I've told Stu they need to petition for a late Withdrawal. They are refusing "I promise I'll work hard!".
They have already failed once, second failure and they are out of the major.
Just. Drop. The. Class.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 25, 2023, 07:44:38 AM
Stu has missed three weeks of class due to a medical concern. And said they will be missing a fourth.
They said they are "feeling motivated" and will "work hard to catch up".
They have missed: 3 midterms, 3 weeks of [pottery labs], 3 [baskets labs], at least 2 quizzes, etc.
And there are only 3 weeks left. One of which they will still be absent.
I've told Stu they need to petition for a late Withdrawal. They are refusing "I promise I'll work hard!".
They have already failed once, second failure and they are out of the major.
Just. Drop. The. Class.
In the mid-South (US), we call this the "All things are possible with God" syndrome. People refuse to understand the difference between "possible" and "not statistically probable." Alas.
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2023, 10:46:56 AM
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
That's one way of thinking about it. There other ways.
Quote from: downer on February 26, 2023, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2023, 10:46:56 AM
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
That's one way of thinking about it. There other ways.
Our Senate asked our student affairs VP to explain the level of documentation needed for plagiarism cases, and she clearly told us that she just needed to know we could make our case should the student choose to challenge the action--that she didn't actually read all the nitty-gritty details in the initial paperwork. We all just sat there blinking. Apparently, the
Law and Order level of initial documentation was something from a previous VP. It's worth having your reps ask about it.
Quote from: downer on February 26, 2023, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2023, 10:46:56 AM
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
That's one way of thinking about it. There other ways.
Yeah, when students do that on reading responses I just give them a zero and write a comment that what they are doing is incredibly dumb and is going to get them in real trouble. If it occurs again, then I'd report it. Perhaps, this is wrong, but I just feel like there are kinds of academic dishonesty that are so stupid, pointless and self defeating that making an official case just seems superfluous.
Curious though. At my school, I wouldn't need to document anything officially at this stage. I just call the dean of student's office and ask them if the student has any previous academic dishonesty convictions. If not, I can meet with the student and propose a resolution. If the student accepts my proposed penalty, they just sign the form, I take it to student affairs and we are done. I would only have to document anything if the student contested the charge. I gather that's not how it works where you are?
Quote from: Caracal on February 27, 2023, 06:46:04 AM
Quote from: downer on February 26, 2023, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2023, 10:46:56 AM
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
That's one way of thinking about it. There other ways.
Yeah, when students do that on reading responses I just give them a zero and write a comment that what they are doing is incredibly dumb and is going to get them in real trouble. If it occurs again, then I'd report it. Perhaps, this is wrong, but I just feel like there are kinds of academic dishonesty that are so stupid, pointless and self defeating that making an official case just seems superfluous.
Curious though. At my school, I wouldn't need to document anything officially at this stage. I just call the dean of student's office and ask them if the student has any previous academic dishonesty convictions. If not, I can meet with the student and propose a resolution. If the student accepts my proposed penalty, they just sign the form, I take it to student affairs and we are done. I would only have to document anything if the student contested the charge. I gather that's not how it works where you are?
Your approach would not be allowed at my institution. We cannot penalize a student for academic misconduct without reporting it, which requires a meeting with the student.
I document all the cases of misconduct at the time, so that I don't have to go rooting through old material to find it later. Strictly speaking, I do not need to have all the documentation submitted with the misconduct report itself, but it is helpful to the person who meets with the student to discuss the possibility of an appeal. If she/he is able to show the student the documentation, that helps the student come to the realization that there is no point in appealing, thereby saving me (and others) time. So, while time consuming to document each case, I do think it is time well spent for me in the end.
Quote from: fishbrains on February 27, 2023, 05:51:38 AM
Quote from: downer on February 26, 2023, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 26, 2023, 10:46:56 AM
Spent over an hour documenting a verbatim plagiarism case. All that work (on my part) over a stupid 15-point reading-response homework (out of 1000 points in the semester). And no, I can't just let it go unreported; if I do, I'm part of the problem.
That's one way of thinking about it. There other ways.
Our Senate asked our student affairs VP to explain the level of documentation needed for plagiarism cases, and she clearly told us that she just needed to know we could make our case should the student choose to challenge the action--that she didn't actually read all the nitty-gritty details in the initial paperwork. We all just sat there blinking. Apparently, the Law and Order level of initial documentation was something from a previous VP. It's worth having your reps ask about it.
We used to have to meet with the student and fill out an agonizingly detailed report.
The exponential increase in cheating during the pandemic changed all that!
Now you can report them in bulk, thanks to an ENTIRE [Baskets 101] course that used Google Drive during an exam. They were careless enough to send the invite to the entire class, including the instructors.
Plagiarism cases can get really involved when you have a student honor council procedure to follow. I and a fellow TA had to deal with a rash of plagiarism cases in one class. I remember meeting with the Honor Council in a kind of court-like setting.
This was back in the early years of the internet, when options for plagiarism were much more limited. The students in question had plagiarized the Cliff's Notes! We ended up getting some convictions.
There's always been cheating, but it does seem with AI and paraphrasing and various ways students have of communicating with each other, the problem is getting worse. Sometimes I rush to the apocalyptic, when a more measured response is better. But still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems. The occasional conscientious professor will still go through the process, but most will skip it.
I am thinking of doing away with online submission of assignments for regular classes and devoting about one third of class sessions to in-class writing assignments or multiple choice tests. The main problem is having to read what they write. Right now, the efficiency of grading online with a rubric is so attractive I can't imagine going back to reading blue books. And I still have plenty of students fail or do badly, so I am far from giving everyone an A. I suspect the proportion of students who get away with cheating in my classes is increasing, but so far it's not a problem I'm forced to do much about, apart from creating assignments that make it harder to cheat.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 08:23:01 AM
There's always been cheating, but it does seem with AI and paraphrasing and various ways students have of communicating with each other, the problem is getting worse. Sometimes I rush to the apocalyptic, when a more measured response is better. But still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems. The occasional conscientious professor will still go through the process, but most will skip it.
I am thinking of doing away with online submission of assignments for regular classes and devoting about one third of class sessions to in-class writing assignments or multiple choice tests. The main problem is having to read what they write. Right now, the efficiency of grading online with a rubric is so attractive I can't imagine going back to reading blue books. And I still have plenty of students fail or do badly, so I am far from giving everyone an A. I suspect the proportion of students who get away with cheating in my classes is increasing, but so far it's not a problem I'm forced to do much about, apart from creating assignments that make it harder to cheat.
I do all essay exams in person on blue books because of this. But, I don't really worry too much about the low stakes assignments. Yeah, it's not that hard to cheat, but the truth is reading responses don't count for much of the grade anyway. It's just a way for me to get more students to do the reading and it does seem to accomplish that goal for many students. The students cheating on low stakes reading assignments are just going to end up in trouble on the exams anyway.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 08:23:01 AMBut still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems.
No they're not. The tolerance of cheating is intentional, or at least intentional-by-default.
Unless it's enough to make it into the news, having some level of cheating *helps* a university, because having students pass courses is good for retention, which is good for enrollment, which helps the bottom line.
Only when you get to the point of having a genuine reputation of universal quality among graduates to protect does cheating become a problem. Most universities don't have a reputation to protect.
Quote from: quasihumanist on February 27, 2023, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 08:23:01 AMBut still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems.
No they're not. The tolerance of cheating is intentional, or at least intentional-by-default.
Unless it's enough to make it into the news, having some level of cheating *helps* a university, because having students pass courses is good for retention, which is good for enrollment, which helps the bottom line.
Only when you get to the point of having a genuine reputation of universal quality among graduates to protect does cheating become a problem. Most universities don't have a reputation to protect.
Basically I agree. It enforces my use of that quotation about students adapted for administrations: "you can't care more about academic integrity than they do." Why should I put myself out with hours of work if the university doesn't care about it?
There is a sense that the reputation of higher ed is not only in constant dispute especially in the US with its strong anti-intellectual tendencies, but is especially in dispute now with current debates over identity politics. Young men have opted out from higher ed in large numbers, leading many schools to having larger female populations of students. Of course, there's also the problem that a bachelors degree is not a guarantee of a job for many young people. I don't know how close we are to a tipping point where people decide that a college degree is largely meaningless. It does not feel that far away to me.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on February 27, 2023, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 08:23:01 AMBut still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems.
No they're not. The tolerance of cheating is intentional, or at least intentional-by-default.
Unless it's enough to make it into the news, having some level of cheating *helps* a university, because having students pass courses is good for retention, which is good for enrollment, which helps the bottom line.
Only when you get to the point of having a genuine reputation of universal quality among graduates to protect does cheating become a problem. Most universities don't have a reputation to protect.
Basically I agree. It enforces my use of that quotation about students adapted for administrations: "you can't care more about academic integrity than they do." Why should I put myself out with hours of work if the university doesn't care about it?
There's another issue which is analogous to the situation in the courts. In a society that is extremely sensitive to perceived abuse of authority, then "prosecutions" that fail do a great deal of reputational damage to all members of the law enforcement system. ("THEY'RE JUST MEAN!!!") Making an accusation of cheating without pretty ironclad
proof is going to look bad on everyone connected with it in the institution if it doesn't stick.
If you're going to jump from the roof of one building to another, you're better not to attempt it unless you're
sure you can make it. Jumping halfway across is worse than not jumping.
Struggling student in my seminar comes in during the last 15 min of class. After class ends, he comes up to apologize, with a story about how he was on his way to class when his friend called from jail and he had to go bail him out. This is not the story you would tell if you were making up an excuse, so I tend to believe him. But also, he reeked of pot (legal here if 21, but probably not the best choice for either going to bail out your friend OR going to class?). I think this kid means well, but his life is a hot mess.
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 03:44:48 PM
Of course, there's also the problem that a bachelors degree is not a guarantee of a job for many young people. I don't know how close we are to a tipping point where people decide that a college degree is largely meaningless. It does not feel that far away to me.
Already the conventional wisdom in many places. Higher ed just isn't on the radar for a large proportion of our region's youth. It never has been, since these are blue-collar communities. That's not necessarily a bad thing, if youths get some kind of vocational-technical education instead. We have a good vo-tech school right here in town. Unfortunately a disturbingly high proportion of youths here and in many other places, rural and urban alike, have opted out of education of any sort, and out of any sort of socially useful role. That's not good news for universities, employers, or anybody else.
Several students are complaining about their low grades on a recent assignment. What I want to say: "Sorry, sometimes the internet is wrong. When you copied the answers for this assignment from [known source of cheating], you copied incorrect answers. We chose not to report you for academic misconduct, but instead graded based on what you submitted."
Quote from: arcturus on February 28, 2023, 10:06:44 AM
Several students are complaining about their low grades on a recent assignment. What I want to say: "Sorry, sometimes the internet is wrong. When you copied the answers for this assignment from [known source of cheating], you copied incorrect answers. We chose not to report you for academic misconduct, but instead graded based on what you submitted."
Oh yes. "But the internet says the definition is... "
Well, yes. That is a general definition. And for purposes of this discipline, we use the following definition and application. This is why we read the textbook instead of Googling terms and grabbing the first link we see.
Or as my colleague who teaches anatomy says- Yes that answer is true . . in SHARKS. But that's not how it works in people!
Apparently she has an early online assignment where if you google her question the first hit is about shark anatomy. It's how she catches the overly internet dependent early on. It's rather brilliant.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 28, 2023, 12:53:18 PM
Or as my colleague who teaches anatomy says- Yes that answer is true . . in SHARKS. But that's not how it works in people!
Apparently she has an early online assignment where if you google her question the first hit is about shark anatomy. It's how she catches the overly internet dependent early on. It's rather brilliant.
I want to know the question! And I want a similar question to use in my classes. . . . .
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 28, 2023, 02:20:38 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 28, 2023, 12:53:18 PM
Or as my colleague who teaches anatomy says- Yes that answer is true . . in SHARKS. But that's not how it works in people!
Apparently she has an early online assignment where if you google her question the first hit is about shark anatomy. It's how she catches the overly internet dependent early on. It's rather brilliant.
I want to know the question! And I want a similar question to use in my classes. . . . .
I feel like adding "in sharks!" after things people say could be a hilarious and more work-appropriate version of the "in bed" thing.
Quote from: marshwiggle on February 28, 2023, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: quasihumanist on February 27, 2023, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: downer on February 27, 2023, 08:23:01 AMBut still, it seems that schools that make the reporting and proof of cheating onerous for faculty are asking for big problems.
No they're not. The tolerance of cheating is intentional, or at least intentional-by-default.
Unless it's enough to make it into the news, having some level of cheating *helps* a university, because having students pass courses is good for retention, which is good for enrollment, which helps the bottom line.
Only when you get to the point of having a genuine reputation of universal quality among graduates to protect does cheating become a problem. Most universities don't have a reputation to protect.
Basically I agree. It enforces my use of that quotation about students adapted for administrations: "you can't care more about academic integrity than they do." Why should I put myself out with hours of work if the university doesn't care about it?
There's another issue which is analogous to the situation in the courts. In a society that is extremely sensitive to perceived abuse of authority, then "prosecutions" that fail do a great deal of reputational damage to all members of the law enforcement system. ("THEY'RE JUST MEAN!!!") Making an accusation of cheating without pretty ironclad proof is going to look bad on everyone connected with it in the institution if it doesn't stick.
If you're going to jump from the roof of one building to another, you're better not to attempt it unless you're sure you can make it. Jumping halfway across is worse than not jumping.
Gee, that's funny. I always thought I needed to be completely sure that a student had plagiarized before I accused them of anything, because it would be really terrible for me to accuse an innocent student of cheating. It would be an enormous abuse of authority if I accused a student of plagiarism without being sure. (If the student has an affirmative defense, that's different. The paper was the a copy of another paper because their evil roommate went on their computer and emailed it to themselves while they were in the shower)
Which is, you know, sort of what police and prosecutors are supposed to be doing too.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 28, 2023, 02:20:38 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 28, 2023, 12:53:18 PM
Or as my colleague who teaches anatomy says- Yes that answer is true . . in SHARKS. But that's not how it works in people!
Apparently she has an early online assignment where if you google her question the first hit is about shark anatomy. It's how she catches the overly internet dependent early on. It's rather brilliant.
I want to know the question! And I want a similar question to use in my classes. . . . .
There's a 90s book about welfare reform and poverty that I assign in one of my classes called American Dream that works like this. Every year, I get at least a couple of students who tell me what the American dream means, or, more amusingly, give me highlight from the sprarknotes of an Edward Albee play called American Dream that seems to involve various characters called mommy, daddy and gramdma being terrible to each other.
One year when I assigned an excerpt from the diary of somebody named Chaplin, one student just gave me an excerpt from wikipedia about Charlie Chaplin. It shows you how checked out really bad students are. Why would we be reading about Charlie Chaplin?
Quote from: Caracal on February 28, 2023, 05:29:29 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 28, 2023, 02:20:38 PM
Quote from: mythbuster on February 28, 2023, 12:53:18 PM
Or as my colleague who teaches anatomy says- Yes that answer is true . . in SHARKS. But that's not how it works in people!
Apparently she has an early online assignment where if you google her question the first hit is about shark anatomy. It's how she catches the overly internet dependent early on. It's rather brilliant.
I want to know the question! And I want a similar question to use in my classes. . . . .
There's a 90s book about welfare reform and poverty that I assign in one of my classes called American Dream that works like this. Every year, I get at least a couple of students who tell me what the American dream means, or, more amusingly, give me highlight from the sprarknotes of an Edward Albee play called American Dream that seems to involve various characters called mommy, daddy and gramdma being terrible to each other.
One year when I assigned an excerpt from the diary of somebody named Chaplin, one student just gave me an excerpt from wikipedia about Charlie Chaplin. It shows you how checked out really bad students are. Why would we be reading about Charlie Chaplin?
Oh, you could do a whole case study on Chaplin and the dissolution of the American Dream based on his personal life. Dissolute being the key term.
Maybe the anatomy questions is about gill arches? Or how the body excretes ammonia? Or something about how teeth grow?
I'm trying to figure out what would be a thing that is applicable to both humans and sharks, but the first google answer is true only in sharks. . . .
I have the now infamous shark question!
The question is: "Describe the location of the pericardial cavity."
If you google this exact question- the first hit says that the pericardial cavity is just anterior to the liver. COMPLETE WITH SHARK DIAGRAM!
Quote from: mythbuster on March 01, 2023, 12:58:10 PM
I have the now infamous shark question!
The question is: "Describe the location of the pericardial cavity."
If you google this exact question- the first hit says that the pericardial cavity is just anterior to the liver. COMPLETE WITH SHARK DIAGRAM!
So does this mean that student Google "research" has now jumped the shark?
Quote from: apl68 on March 02, 2023, 07:23:58 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on March 01, 2023, 12:58:10 PM
I have the now infamous shark question!
The question is: "Describe the location of the pericardial cavity."
If you google this exact question- the first hit says that the pericardial cavity is just anterior to the liver. COMPLETE WITH SHARK DIAGRAM!
So does this mean that student Google "research" has now jumped the shark?
Lol!
For my part, this is not from a student, although im some ways it may as well be.
My book is apparently being printed by Taylor & Francis. They shipped my comped copies in two batches--one via FedEx, the other via a carrier unknown. Batch 1 had a FedEx tracking number. It arrived. Batch 2 has a tracking number that doesn't seem to work for any of the usual carriers. The email for B1 specified it was with FedEx; B2 gave the number but no carrier.
So I emailed customer support to ask which carrier they used for B2 and explained that I had a tracking number with no associated carrier (and gave them the number). Customer support replied with an apology and
the same tracking number, still without any carrier information. I responded by explaining, again, that I have the number but don't know where to plug it in to check the shipment's status. They then replied to say it was with 'Canada mail'. I pointed out that the tracking number is not a valid Canada Post tracking number.
The customer service rep then replied with another apology, and said
that she'd told the print shop to print and send a new batch.
Now, I certainly don't mind getting extra comped copies. But
what the hell?!
Two students decided to skip their discussion class today to "better prepare for their exam tomorrow".
I hope it's worth the zero on the discussion assignment.
Sorry for the double-post, but it's been a while since the last.
What part of "presentations are in-person, during your registered class section" makes it sound like attendance is optional?
Today, my senior level seminar class had 'cocktail-party talks' about their semester long research projects. They had a proposal submission deadline of Feb 23rd. Today, 8 of the 19 showed up not having been approved for a topic yet. So I sent them away to go get a proposal together, and the prepared students gave their talks and gave each other feedback.
After the class, and irate gang of four came to complain that:
1) There wasn't an announcement that the proposals were due (it was in the syllabus);
2) There weren't instructions on how to submit (sample proposal in same place as syllabus) and I told them repeatedly to email me;
3) I should 've contacted them when I didn't get their proposals (did I mention these are seniors?); and
4) It wasn't fair that they now had zeros for the days work.
When I asked them how everybody else in the class managed to figure this out, they had no idea.
I am so glad Spring Break starts today.
My just-after-lunch freshman seminar has been really disengaged all semester. I can't get a proper discussion going, and I can never figure out if it's because they didn't do the reading or because they're shy.
To figure out what would help them learn, I handed out an anonymous mid-semester survey to complete and bring back. (Originally I'd planned to give class time for this, but the content I'd planned ran long. You know, the supposed learning that's the point of class.) Only one student brought it back. Yay for anonymity. I gave them another day to do it. Nope, no more surveys returned.
All I can say is I tried.
Oh, while I'm complaining about this class... They made draft slides for an upcoming presentation, and we did peer feedback on the slides. Since attendance was low that day, I also went around and gave feedback on everyone's slides. One student's topic didn't meet the parameters of the assignment. When I told her this, she wanted permission to use the topic anyway since she'd already made slides. Argh!
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 11, 2023, 04:44:51 AM
One student's topic didn't meet the parameters of the assignment. When I told her this, she wanted permission to use the topic anyway since she'd already made slides. Argh!
"But I spent so much time on this. Effort should count!" I posted a similar experience in the student emails thread earlier in the semester:
Quote from: Cheerful on January 17, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
Student: "The assignment directions say to do ABC but can I do XYZ instead?"
Answer?: "Sure, just do whatever, there is no purpose to the assignment as written."
Quote from: Cheerful on March 11, 2023, 02:19:43 PM
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 11, 2023, 04:44:51 AM
One student's topic didn't meet the parameters of the assignment. When I told her this, she wanted permission to use the topic anyway since she'd already made slides. Argh!
"But I spent so much time on this. Effort should count!" I posted a similar experience in the student emails thread earlier in the semester:
Quote from: Cheerful on January 17, 2023, 04:03:11 PM
Student: "The assignment directions say to do ABC but can I do XYZ instead?"
Answer?: "Sure, just do whatever, there is no purpose to the assignment as written."
We're just glorified babysitters.
It is time again for mid-term failure warnings. That lovely time of the semester where I have to tell the administration which students are in danger of failing, so they can notify the students, so the students can send me outraged emails. How will I know if they are in danger of failing? I'll look at the online gradebook, of course. The very thing my students have access to at all times.
I hate doing this, as it feels paternalistic. When I was ~20, I didn't need the school to tell me how I was doing in class. I knew. After all, I was the one doing, or not doing, the work....
Quote from: FishProf on March 13, 2023, 08:09:56 AM
It is time again for mid-term failure warnings. That lovely time of the semester where I have to tell the administration which students are in danger of failing, so they can notify the students, so the students can send me outraged emails. How will I know if they are in danger of failing? I'll look at the online gradebook, of course. The very thing my students have access to at all times.
I hate doing this, as it feels paternalistic. When I was ~20, I didn't need the school to tell me how I was doing in class. I knew. After all, I was the one doing, or not doing, the work....
I think this goes with previous discussions of people asking about whether something is "really" like the prof said, despite it being in the syllabus, email, announced in class, etc. They have been raised to think that all the boundaries in the world are made of rubber, and can be bent and reshaped as needed, so there are
no consequences to
any actions that are inevitable.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 13, 2023, 08:37:38 AM
They have been raised to think that all the boundaries in the world are made of rubber, and can be bent and reshaped as needed, so there are no consequences to any actions* that are inevitable.
* or inactions.
It is, perhaps, the most important lesson I give to Smolt. "You cannot choose your consequences, you can only choose your actions and you GET the consequences that go with them."
Quote from: FishProf on March 13, 2023, 08:51:08 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 13, 2023, 08:37:38 AM
They have been raised to think that all the boundaries in the world are made of rubber, and can be bent and reshaped as needed, so there are no consequences to any actions* that are inevitable.
* or inactions.
It is, perhaps, the most important lesson I give to Smolt. "You cannot choose your consequences, you can only choose your actions and you GET the consequences that go with them."
I love that. If my kids weren't all out of the house now I'd adopt that one. ( I
did tell them "you can have almost anything you want; the question is what you're willing to
give up to get it." That served some of that purpose.)
Another in the same vein, regarding working out as a metaphor for achievement.
"Everyone want to BE strong, very few want to GET strong."
Quote from: FishProf on March 13, 2023, 08:57:58 AM
Another in the same vein, regarding working out as a metaphor for achievement.
"Everyone want to BE strong, very few want to GET strong."
From what I've been hearing here, a lot of you all's students seem unable to make the connection between their desired outcomes and the fact that effort needs to be expended on their part to reach these outcomes. They're thinking just doesn't seem to join up.
It's presentation week and I'm suddenly getting students who want to come and meet with me.
"The guidelines say to do [ABC]. I can't figure out how to do [ABC]. Can I do [XYZ] instead?"
"Can you teach me how to do [thing you were supposed to learn in lab two weeks ago]?"
"My team is confused. Can we do [tiny piece of project] instead of [entire project]?"
Nope.
I am especially not sympathetic to any students that left class early. The best time to ask questions was when your TA and all team members were all in the same room at the same time. You know, in class.
They should be able to figure out what score they will earn, but I know there will be students *shocked and dismayed* that not following the instructions means you will lose points.
Quote from: apl68 on March 13, 2023, 10:03:45 AM
From what I've been hearing here, a lot of you all's students seem unable to make the connection between their desired outcomes and the fact that effort needs to be expended on their part to reach these outcomes. They're thinking just doesn't seem to join up.
Yup. And it isn't restricted to my students, I'm seeing this all over the place.
Quote from: FishProf on March 13, 2023, 03:10:17 PM
Quote from: apl68 on March 13, 2023, 10:03:45 AM
From what I've been hearing here, a lot of you all's students seem unable to make the connection between their desired outcomes and the fact that effort needs to be expended on their part to reach these outcomes. They're thinking just doesn't seem to join up.
Yup. And it isn't restricted to my students, I'm seeing this all over the place.
I mean it is a basic part of learning to be an adult. Either do things and see if you can try to make the desired outcome happen, or don't do them and live with that. It is the basic anxiety behind the dreams so many of ushave where its the end of the semester and we haven't come to class or done anything. I need to get a decent grade! This was important! What have I been doing! As a person in my early 40s, I'm having that feeling about all kinds of things. "I thought I had things I wanted to publish, why haven't I written them!?" It's just that some students are trying to externalize the problem and make it about their professors or some other factor besides their own choices. I get it, it's just annoying.
Dear graduate student,
When I ask you to tell me about a measure you will be using in my research methods class (actual assignment more specific), I am not asking you copy and paste 3 paragraphs from an article you found into a word document and hand that in. You are expected to describe it in your own words. If I wanted to read another person's description of a measure, the assignment would have been: locate an article about the measure and upload it. Now I need to do all the student conduct paperwork.
No love,
Dr. OMY
Dear graduate student,
When I said "score student presentations using the rubric" why did you think that meant you didn't need to keep track of WHICH STUDENT gave which presentation? Were you just hoping they all earned the same score? Planning to randomly assign grades to names?
Yes, that does mean you need to go back and look through ALL of the presentations and score them AGAIN.
This quarter can't end soon enough.
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 17, 2023, 03:24:42 PM
Dear graduate student,
When I said "score student presentations using the rubric" why did you think that meant you didn't need to keep track of WHICH STUDENT gave which presentation? Were you just hoping they all earned the same score? Planning to randomly assign grades to names?
Yes, that does mean you need to go back and look through ALL of the presentations and score them AGAIN.
This quarter can't end soon enough.
I've noticed similar failures to put two and two together among some of our younger library staff members. It's just remarkable the degree to which seemingly obvious things have to be spelled out when giving instructions.
At least the presentations are presumably recorded so that it's actually possible to go back through them.
Quote from: apl68 on March 17, 2023, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on March 17, 2023, 03:24:42 PM
Dear graduate student,
When I said "score student presentations using the rubric" why did you think that meant you didn't need to keep track of WHICH STUDENT gave which presentation? Were you just hoping they all earned the same score? Planning to randomly assign grades to names?
Yes, that does mean you need to go back and look through ALL of the presentations and score them AGAIN.
This quarter can't end soon enough.
I've noticed similar failures to put two and two together among some of our younger library staff members. It's just remarkable the degree to which seemingly obvious things have to be spelled out when giving instructions.
At least the presentations are presumably recorded so that it's actually possible to go back through them.
My impression is that young people have increasingly come to see tasks, assignments, and requirements as
inherently hoop-jumping exercises lacking in any intrinsic purpose. So they don't see skipping those things as having any
implicit consequences for
them.
For example, students working on projects will ask "How do I do X?" to which I'll say "Remember the
lab where you had to do X? Go back and look at that." Since they only do about a dozen labs in total, it's hardly like any particular one would have been lost in the multitude.
It's pretty common for a student to tell me, "Hey, that's the third time you said that!" and my response is, "No, that's at least the fifth time I've said it." Then they stare at me like I'm insane.
I'm not sure how much better I was when I was their age. Memory loss/malfunction about how smart I was(n't) back then isn't always a bad thing.
Colleague essentially came out of retirement this semester to provide coverage for 2 upper level specialty courses that none of us are qualified to teach (we've lost several colleagues recently to retirement and better opportunities). Students are giving Colleague such shit that we're lucky he's not quitting. To survive the class, he's stripped the course down in service of just getting through the basic material from the text. Our chair is involved and attempting to provide support, but it's gone off the rails. It's really unfortunate because he's a practicing professional in the field and having the opportunity for someone like him to teach these courses is something students should be begging for, not burning it all down. I completely understand that this is a departmental problem--I'm aware of the drivers that have led to this. As an NTT, I have 0 ability to spearhead the changes we need to make. I'm just watching it happen and hoping we're going to be able to reset.
Another quarter and another batch of TAs. Most are solidly good, a few are excellent, and there are two that are making me wish it was finals week already.
All jobs have minimum exceptions like "show up on time, prepared to do your job, and stay your entire shift".
Seriously. I have 2 new graduate students that would get fired from the Walmart.
The list of casualties includes:
being late to teach, letting the students leave a HUGE mess (and class ended early!), ignoring the grading guidelines, ignoring the safety expectations, and showing up late with no lab coat at a required lab training.
I'm just glad there wasn't anything expensive, fragile, or hazardous in the room in Week 1.
There are certain "tells" that the poorest performing students will say during class that I will recognize as coming from the poorest performing students.
For the 3rd year in row, "I'm So Confused" is topping the charts.
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Quote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
I feel the same way about making a study guide. They already have one. If, that is, they took notes. If they didn't, I don't see how a study guide would help anyway.
I have students in a course that has all open-note quizzes and exams, who still don't take notes.
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2023, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
All power to you. Sometimes we have to cave when admin demands BS work from us, but we don't with students.
Quote from: FishProf on April 12, 2023, 05:54:07 AM
I feel the same way about making a study guide. They already have one. If, that is, they took notes. If they didn't, I don't see how a study guide would help anyway.
I have students in a course that has all open-note quizzes and exams, who still don't take notes.
Or an outline for the paper. I gave them the general outline as laid out in the textbook "On page 10 is the outline of an X plan." Each week I explain what I'm looking for in each section. It's all on the LMS, including suggested research sources. If they want to plan ahead, they can because it's all there. If they stay caught up week by week, the paper takes care of itself.
If they want to wait until the last minute and bs off of an example of another student's paper, well... I must have told the story about the student who wanted to do a pizza delivery business, found a business plan for a floral delivery business, and then replaced the word "flowers" for "pizza?"
All hilarity ensued.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 07:21:33 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 12, 2023, 05:54:07 AM
I feel the same way about making a study guide. They already have one. If, that is, they took notes. If they didn't, I don't see how a study guide would help anyway.
I have students in a course that has all open-note quizzes and exams, who still don't take notes.
Or an outline for the paper. I gave them the general outline as laid out in the textbook "On page 10 is the outline of an X plan." Each week I explain what I'm looking for in each section. It's all on the LMS, including suggested research sources. If they want to plan ahead, they can because it's all there. If they stay caught up week by week, the paper takes care of itself.
If they want to wait until the last minute and bs off of an example of another student's paper, well... I must have told the story about the student who wanted to do a pizza delivery business, found a business plan for a floral delivery business, and then replaced the word "flowers" for "pizza?"
All hilarity ensued.
Do tell! That sounds awesome funny! Do they mention "special occasion pizzas" - Mother's Day, weddings, & funerals? Knowing that the "pizza selection" is best in the summer months when the growers have more varieties?
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 12, 2023, 09:52:26 AM
Do tell! That sounds awesome funny! Do they mention "special occasion pizzas" - Mother's Day, weddings, & funerals? Knowing that the "pizza selection" is best in the summer months when the growers have more varieties?
I see no problem with any of this. Pizza is appropriate for all special occasions, and the freshest vegetable toppings are only available in season. My special limited edition pesto pizza for example, is only available in the summer when I have fresh basil and tomatoes from the garden.
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2023, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
I compromise by having a rubric that doesn't have points/grades assigned to each level, but rather qualitatively describes what is considered above expectations, meets expectations, below expectations, does not fulfill assignment. Gives students an idea of how they will be graded, but allows for flexibility.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 07:21:33 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 12, 2023, 05:54:07 AM
I feel the same way about making a study guide. They already have one. If, that is, they took notes. If they didn't, I don't see how a study guide would help anyway.
I have students in a course that has all open-note quizzes and exams, who still don't take notes.
Or an outline for the paper. I gave them the general outline as laid out in the textbook "On page 10 is the outline of an X plan." Each week I explain what I'm looking for in each section. It's all on the LMS, including suggested research sources. If they want to plan ahead, they can because it's all there. If they stay caught up week by week, the paper takes care of itself.
If they want to wait until the last minute and bs off of an example of another student's paper, well... I must have told the story about the student who wanted to do a pizza delivery business, found a business plan for a floral delivery business, and then replaced the word "flowers" for "pizza?"
All hilarity ensued.
Hehe. Yeah, you can't just use a model and run with it. One of my fourth year UG classes provided exemplars of previous assignments to see what constituted an A+ assignment. These were case studies, and cases were changed year to year and so students just couldn't copy, even if they weren't worried about plagiarism, but the exemplars gave them an idea of what was expected. I was honoured when two of my group's assignments were chosen as two of the four exemplars to be provided to next year's students.
I've seen so many rubrics with so many different formats and points over the years. One of my colleagues at a recent job used to call the assignment directions the rubric. One school at which I taught had rubrics that said "An A paper will . . ." and "A B paper will," etc. While students think of rubrics as a grid, they can often be convinced that rubrics come in other formats.
I also think training students to read directions and infer the evaluation criteria is a really useful skill. I tell mine that many future endeavors, such as grant proposals and applications for all sorts of things, will come with rubrics hidden in the directions. Can you have a short lesson doing something like this and linking it to bigger, real-life things?
AR.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 12, 2023, 09:52:26 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 07:21:33 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 12, 2023, 05:54:07 AM
I feel the same way about making a study guide. They already have one. If, that is, they took notes. If they didn't, I don't see how a study guide would help anyway.
I have students in a course that has all open-note quizzes and exams, who still don't take notes.
Or an outline for the paper. I gave them the general outline as laid out in the textbook "On page 10 is the outline of an X plan." Each week I explain what I'm looking for in each section. It's all on the LMS, including suggested research sources. If they want to plan ahead, they can because it's all there. If they stay caught up week by week, the paper takes care of itself.
If they want to wait until the last minute and bs off of an example of another student's paper, well... I must have told the story about the student who wanted to do a pizza delivery business, found a business plan for a floral delivery business, and then replaced the word "flowers" for "pizza?"
All hilarity ensued.
Do tell! That sounds awesome funny! Do they mention "special occasion pizzas" - Mother's Day, weddings, & funerals? Knowing that the "pizza selection" is best in the summer months when the growers have more varieties?
Oh yes. "Bouquets of pizzas" was a very special category.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 06:48:39 PM
Oh yes. "Bouquets of pizzas" was a very special category.
After this week, I want "Bouquets of pizzas", and a nice seasonal arrangement of beer.
Quote from: AvidReader on April 12, 2023, 03:37:08 PM
I've seen so many rubrics with so many different formats and points over the years. One of my colleagues at a recent job used to call the assignment directions the rubric. One school at which I taught had rubrics that said "An A paper will . . ." and "A B paper will," etc. While students think of rubrics as a grid, they can often be convinced that rubrics come in other formats.
I also think training students to read directions and infer the evaluation criteria is a really useful skill. I tell mine that many future endeavors, such as grant proposals and applications for all sorts of things, will come with rubrics hidden in the directions. Can you have a short lesson doing something like this and linking it to bigger, real-life things?
AR.
I do all of these things, and to be fair the vast majority of students are fine, appreciate the skills, and produce strong projects. The is definitely one of those cases where about 4% of the people cause 98% of the problems.
Quote from: FishProf on April 13, 2023, 03:32:55 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 06:48:39 PM
Oh yes. "Bouquets of pizzas" was a very special category.
After this week, I want "Bouquets of pizzas", and a nice seasonal arrangement of beer.
I second the motion!!
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 13, 2023, 10:11:34 AM
Quote from: FishProf on April 13, 2023, 03:32:55 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 12, 2023, 06:48:39 PM
Oh yes. "Bouquets of pizzas" was a very special category.
After this week, I want "Bouquets of pizzas", and a nice seasonal arrangement of beer.
I second the motion!!
Thirded!
Like this? https://www.delish.com/food-news/a21073696/wedding-pizza-bouquet-pizza-boutonniere/ (https://www.delish.com/food-news/a21073696/wedding-pizza-bouquet-pizza-boutonniere/)
And this? https://www.gourmetgiftbaskets.com/Summer-Seasonal-Beer-Bucket.asp?sku4520&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PMax%3A+Main&cid=17699989602&gclid=CjwKCAjw0N6hBhAUEiwAXab-TfQMpDJH0-vdrFXzK5AGdpW7eJhh3c9Wbi5dEwjmHeUj5kfGWJP_uxoCcBMQAvD_BwE (https://www.gourmetgiftbaskets.com/Summer-Seasonal-Beer-Bucket.asp?sku4520&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PMax%3A+Main&cid=17699989602&gclid=CjwKCAjw0N6hBhAUEiwAXab-TfQMpDJH0-vdrFXzK5AGdpW7eJhh3c9Wbi5dEwjmHeUj5kfGWJP_uxoCcBMQAvD_BwE)
I want the pizza bouquet! It's adorable!
I'm sure I could make a homemade more, ah, rustic version. Not quite as cute, but hopefully just as delicious.
Grading.
Final projects.
So.
Much.
Mediocrity...........
Quote from: traductio on April 14, 2023, 08:03:10 AM
Grading.
Final projects.
So.
Much.
Mediocrity...........
I hear you! I tell my students that the final project is their opportunity to demonstrate what they have learned in the class. Sadly, the final project demonstrates what they have (not) learned in the class...
I have had 5 students whining about grades on a presentation who ONLY want to wheedle for points. The last one wanted to know why they got what they got and what they should focus on for next time.
So, one student, at least, gets it.
(In this particular assignment, I have students peer evaluate using my rubric. I gave a student a 57 on a talk. Her peer scores were: 56, 95, 100. I think I understand why my class is upset about their grades - they are delusional about what a quality talk looks like. )
Those peer scores are disturbing. And that's with a rubric?!?
My current head-bang moment.
Dear Graduate Student,
The entire point of our several-hours-long mandatory Friday meetings is so you have the chance to BE READY TO TEACH YOUR CLASS the next week. I have just learned that you are leaving your students to go to the lab next door and ask that TA questions that you should already know the answers to. And you are not teaching the students to use the equipment correctly. And you are showing up late. This is NOT acceptable. Congratulations, now I'm going to watch you in excruciating detail. You better graduate this quarter since you're never getting another TA appointment in this department.
Dr. Geneticist
What exactly is the point behind having students assign peer grading? It seems fraught with potential downsides...
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 17, 2023, 04:46:49 PM
What exactly is the point behind having students assign peer grading? It seems fraught with potential downsides...
Having students evaluate each other and give feedback helps them see the good and bad in their own work.
Quote from: FishProf on April 18, 2023, 04:51:03 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on April 17, 2023, 04:46:49 PM
What exactly is the point behind having students assign peer grading? It seems fraught with potential downsides...
Having students evaluate each other and give feedback helps them see the good and bad in their own work.
Peer-reviewing essays and/or research papers is a requirement in some of my courses. I provide students with a detailed rubric for each of these assignments. I also review the peer reviews to ensure that these are for the most part accurate.
Dear "confused and misunderstood" student - Stop begging me to grade your late work. I know that you think you deserve an exception to the rules, but you really are better off with a zero for it being late than a zero for academic misconduct.
TA, the reason you are not "feeling prepared" to teach is you have been NOT preparing. Did you read the instructor notes? No. The protocol? No. The notes taped to the podium by the prep staff that says EXACTLY where to find the equipment/reagents/plasticware? No. Did you take notes during our prep meeting? No. Did you even show up on time for our meeting? No.
I can't help you if you won't use the supports we already give you.
Please.
It's Week 5!!
Hope springs eternal in the student breast. Professors never are, but always to be blest.
Ahh, finals, that time of year when the students who have no mathematical hope of passing the course show up for the final exam anyway. Sigh.
Those hopeless final takers might at least be able to keep their financial aid. That's the only thing I can think of. Of course that means they were strategically thinking and...well, forget it.
I have students (seniors) taking an exit exam for the major in the seminar course. (Note: it doesn't affect their final grade). There are 6 subsections, each written by a group of faculty in that specialty. I know how to use all the tricks in the software for creating this test bank, and I am teaching a section of the Seminar, so it fell to me to collate, enter, and edit the questions (for format, NOT content).
I told my students that I could not address questions they had about the accuracy of the scoring, but if they emailed me their questions, I would consult with the relevant faculty and get back to them. Good enough?
Nope. Thee students pitched a fit over questions on the exam and would not let it go when I reiterated the above. One student, who argued vociferously over the validity of the question itself, eventually left in tears (student scored an 86%).
I expect to get a request for a visit from the chair over this. This really isn't my fault (and at least 2 of the 3 students are just dead wrong - the third might have a point, but I am not qualified to determine that.
Last week a student emailed me to ask if there was any hope of her completing the course with a B. I responded in the affirmative and explained that a B was very much within reach, but that she was at her limit for dropped assignments in both lecture and lab.
She did not show up for any class this week, nor did she turn in her assignment that was due from last week. Perhaps she wanted the answer to be "no" when she emailed me last week?
My final exam in an Animal Behavior course is taking place at a Zoo. It is both a practical exam (actually watch animals and show you learned the appropriate techniques) and an oral exam (explain concept X). This has been the plan for about a month. Due to weather, I have changed WHICH Zoo we are visiting, and I posted the change, including the directions for taking the Train/Subway to the site.
I got this email this morning.
"Hello Professor,
This is [Non-traditional Student], I have never been on the T and I do not feel comfortable doing this trip. Is there any other way I can take the final exam?
Thank you for your time,"
You are an adult. You could drive. But, "I can't figure out my local mass transit system and that makes me too uncomfortable to attend the final" is.....well, I don't know what to call it.
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
You are an adult. You could drive. But, "I can't figure out my local mass transit system and that makes me too uncomfortable to attend the final" is.....well, I don't know what to call it.
As a nondriver myself, I wouldn't assume the student can drive.
But a nondriver with access to mass transit likely uses that system regularly, unless hu is disabled in ways that prevent use of that system.
So yeah, that is very odd.
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 02, 2023, 08:50:11 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
You are an adult. You could drive. But, "I can't figure out my local mass transit system and that makes me too uncomfortable to attend the final" is.....well, I don't know what to call it.
As a nondriver myself, I wouldn't assume the student can drive.
But a nondriver with access to mass transit likely uses that system regularly, unless hu is disabled in ways that prevent use of that system.
So yeah, that is very odd.
What's particularly odd is this:
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
My final exam in an Animal Behavior course is taking place at a Zoo. It is both a practical exam (actually watch animals and show you learned the appropriate techniques) and an oral exam (explain concept X). This has been the plan for about a month. Due to weather, I have changed WHICH Zoo we are visiting, and I posted the change, including the directions for taking the Train/Subway to the site.
However the student was planning to get to the original zoo, it's hard to believe that
with a month's warning something similar could not have been arranged. (It seems unlikely the student would have been within walking distance of the original zoo, for instance.)
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 02, 2023, 08:50:11 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
You are an adult. You could drive. But, "I can't figure out my local mass transit system and that makes me too uncomfortable to attend the final" is.....well, I don't know what to call it.
As a nondriver myself, I wouldn't assume the student can drive.
But a nondriver with access to mass transit likely uses that system regularly, unless hu is disabled in ways that prevent use of that system.
So yeah, that is very odd.
Even if there's some reason this all makes sense, they could always take a Lyft. That's going to cost a lot more, but if they don't like the easily accessible, affordable option...
There are 16 students in the class, and they've gone to 6 other field trips. I don't know if this student can't drive, or needs to carpool, or what - but they've managed to get themselves elsewhere.
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
My final exam in an Animal Behavior course is taking place at a Zoo. It is both a practical exam (actually watch animals and show you learned the appropriate techniques) and an oral exam (explain concept X).
I hope all of your students showed up at your final exam, but I also just want to say that this sound so amazing! I want to have final exams at the zoo! It's got to be better than the reports I'm slogging through today.
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 10:27:51 AM
There are 16 students in the class, and they've gone to 6 other field trips. I don't know if this student can't drive, or needs to carpool, or what - but they've managed to get themselves elsewhere.
As someone who doesn't drive and has a remarkable ability to get lost even with detailed directions, my move here would be either to 1) pick a day before the exam to practice getting there by public transport and/or 2) reach out to fellow students for a ride or a transit buddy.
Not sure it would occur to me to ask, "So about that exam. Can I just not?"
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2023, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 02, 2023, 08:50:11 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
You are an adult. You could drive. But, "I can't figure out my local mass transit system and that makes me too uncomfortable to attend the final" is.....well, I don't know what to call it.
As a nondriver myself, I wouldn't assume the student can drive.
But a nondriver with access to mass transit likely uses that system regularly, unless hu is disabled in ways that prevent use of that system.
So yeah, that is very odd.
What's particularly odd is this:
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 04:13:50 AM
My final exam in an Animal Behavior course is taking place at a Zoo. It is both a practical exam (actually watch animals and show you learned the appropriate techniques) and an oral exam (explain concept X). This has been the plan for about a month. Due to weather, I have changed WHICH Zoo we are visiting, and I posted the change, including the directions for taking the Train/Subway to the site.
However the student was planning to get to the original zoo, it's hard to believe that with a month's warning something similar could not have been arranged. (It seems unlikely the student would have been within walking distance of the original zoo, for instance.)
This is what I was wondering too.
Student emails me at 10pm last night asking where our exam (8am today) is being held. I email him back at 715am today to say it's in our normal classroom. He doesn't show. He had a 72 before I gave him the zero, which then dropped him to failing range. He emails my chair to say "he didn't tell me where the exam was located." While I do give the class location on the syllabus, I don't explicitly state on the schedule that the exam is held in the same room; I assumed that was a given. I discussed the exam and its location in class. I hope the gods of put-upon faculty hear my prayers and that I'm not required to give this dude a makeup.
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 02, 2023, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: FishProf on May 02, 2023, 10:27:51 AM
There are 16 students in the class, and they've gone to 6 other field trips. I don't know if this student can't drive, or needs to carpool, or what - but they've managed to get themselves elsewhere.
As someone who doesn't drive and has a remarkable ability to get lost even with detailed directions, my move here would be either to 1) pick a day before the exam to practice getting there by public transport and/or 2) reach out to fellow students for a ride or a transit buddy.
Not sure it would occur to me to ask, "So about that exam. Can I just not?"
That was my thought. You have no other solution to this YOU problem?
For the record, if he insists, he can have a different exam, but he won't like it.
Quote from: RatGuy on May 02, 2023, 07:02:11 PM
Student emails me at 10pm last night asking where our exam (8am today) is being held. I email him back at 715am today to say it's in our normal classroom. He doesn't show. He had a 72 before I gave him the zero, which then dropped him to failing range. He emails my chair to say "he didn't tell me where the exam was located." While I do give the class location on the syllabus, I don't explicitly state on the schedule that the exam is held in the same room; I assumed that was a given. I discussed the exam and its location in class. I hope the gods of put-upon faculty hear my prayers and that I'm not required to give this dude a makeup.
This is a final? The exam location and time is presumably something the student can look up by going to the registrar's website. Even putting that aside, none of this makes sense. Let's suppose this guy, unlike everybody else in the class, actually has no idea where the exam is and somehow can't figure this out. If he sends you an email the night before, wouldn't he wake up the next morning, go to campus if he's not a resident student, and keep checking his email to see if you wrote him back? Even if you hadn't emailed him, wouldn't he go to the normal class location and hope that's where the exam is?
I'd be much more sympathetic if he just said he slept through his alarm. At least, that's just a boneheaded mistake, this is someone who is obviously just fishing for excuses.
Quote from: Caracal on May 03, 2023, 08:08:03 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 02, 2023, 07:02:11 PM
Student emails me at 10pm last night asking where our exam (8am today) is being held. I email him back at 715am today to say it's in our normal classroom. He doesn't show. He had a 72 before I gave him the zero, which then dropped him to failing range. He emails my chair to say "he didn't tell me where the exam was located." While I do give the class location on the syllabus, I don't explicitly state on the schedule that the exam is held in the same room; I assumed that was a given. I discussed the exam and its location in class. I hope the gods of put-upon faculty hear my prayers and that I'm not required to give this dude a makeup.
This is a final? The exam location and time is presumably something the student can look up by going to the registrar's website. Even putting that aside, none of this makes sense. Let's suppose this guy, unlike everybody else in the class, actually has no idea where the exam is and somehow can't figure this out. If he sends you an email the night before, wouldn't he wake up the next morning, go to campus if he's not a resident student, and keep checking his email to see if you wrote him back? Even if you hadn't emailed him, wouldn't he go to the normal class location and hope that's where the exam is?
I'd be much more sympathetic if he just said he slept through his alarm. At least, that's just a boneheaded mistake, this is someone who is obviously just fishing for excuses.
FWIW, he's a chronically late student. He'd often arrive 10 minutes into a 50 min class, after the other students had completed a quiz. He then would ask after class if he could take the quiz -- even though he was there as we were going over answers and covering material. I'd always tell him no. But I do think this is part of his pattern of asking for a makeup only once he knows the questions/answers are already in circulation.
Our animal behavior lab is also held at the zoo. It is incredibly popular because of this. Also- if the T goes to said zoo, I bet Uber does as well!
I just finished grading the revisions portion of the final paper for my Writing for Bio Majors class. I warn them, repeatedly and in bold, that you will fail if there is no evidence of revision.
Even if it was a good paper the first time round. I recommend they add a cover sheet that lists their revisions.
But every semester I get students who think fixing 3 typos is sufficient, when their original paper got a list of 8-10 major revision points in comments from me. They will be sorely disappointed. It's so easy to tell when I can pull up the old and the new side by side. The few that took the revision process to heart are well rewarded.
Quote from: RatGuy on May 03, 2023, 08:34:54 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 03, 2023, 08:08:03 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 02, 2023, 07:02:11 PM
Student emails me at 10pm last night asking where our exam (8am today) is being held. I email him back at 715am today to say it's in our normal classroom. He doesn't show. He had a 72 before I gave him the zero, which then dropped him to failing range. He emails my chair to say "he didn't tell me where the exam was located." While I do give the class location on the syllabus, I don't explicitly state on the schedule that the exam is held in the same room; I assumed that was a given. I discussed the exam and its location in class. I hope the gods of put-upon faculty hear my prayers and that I'm not required to give this dude a makeup.
This is a final? The exam location and time is presumably something the student can look up by going to the registrar's website. Even putting that aside, none of this makes sense. Let's suppose this guy, unlike everybody else in the class, actually has no idea where the exam is and somehow can't figure this out. If he sends you an email the night before, wouldn't he wake up the next morning, go to campus if he's not a resident student, and keep checking his email to see if you wrote him back? Even if you hadn't emailed him, wouldn't he go to the normal class location and hope that's where the exam is?
I'd be much more sympathetic if he just said he slept through his alarm. At least, that's just a boneheaded mistake, this is someone who is obviously just fishing for excuses.
FWIW, he's a chronically late student. He'd often arrive 10 minutes into a 50 min class, after the other students had completed a quiz. He then would ask after class if he could take the quiz -- even though he was there as we were going over answers and covering material. I'd always tell him no. But I do think this is part of his pattern of asking for a makeup only once he knows the questions/answers are already in circulation.
I'd err on the side of writing a new version of the exam and make stu take it in your office. If it was multiple choice, change it to free-response; swap out some questions for new versions; and call it good enough. If he knows the materials well enough, he will still pass.
Quote from: mythbuster on May 03, 2023, 09:07:20 AM
Our animal behavior lab is also held at the zoo. It is incredibly popular because of this. Also- if the T goes to said zoo, I bet Uber does as well!
I just finished grading the revisions portion of the final paper for my Writing for Bio Majors class. I warn them, repeatedly and in bold, that you will fail if there is no evidence of revision.
Even if it was a good paper the first time round. I recommend they add a cover sheet that lists their revisions.
But every semester I get students who think fixing 3 typos is sufficient, when their original paper got a list of 8-10 major revision points in comments from me. They will be sorely disappointed. It's so easy to tell when I can pull up the old and the new side by side. The few that took the revision process to heart are well rewarded.
Lucky you! I get identical submissions uploaded as "revised" submissions every single semester. It's easy to compare the before-and-after assignments because all assignments have to be uploaded on Canvas. I merely note that there is no change in scores because both assignments are identical or, in the case of fixing three to four typos, note that feedback has been ignored hence no change in scores. This is a course that requires three essays and a research paper, so one would think that after the first attempt, students would know better than to submit the same assignment as the "revised" one, but some never learn. Revising and resubmitting is optional so students have the choice of not revising their assignments. Some still think that they can fool me into giving them higher scores by uploading the same assignment as their "revised" one.
FishProf and RatGuy, it sounds like we are required to babysit our students. Why would a student enrolled in a course that requires fieldwork not know how to get around the city, especially for a final? Does your admin expect you to drive the student to the zoo or send an Uber to Stu's house? And for the student who claimed not to know where the final was going to be held, I hope the chair/admin remind him that this was information that was given out in class, and in case he was confused, it was his responsibility to ask for clarification during class. Are instructors required to send emails to each student reminding them about the dates and locations of their finals?
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 03, 2023, 12:49:46 PM
Does your admin expect you to drive the student to the zoo or send an Uber to Stu's house?
My school won't pay for transportation. I'd much rather drive (or have them driven) as a group.
This particular student is non-traditional, is a functional adult, and showed (up to now) Zero evidence of snowflakery. I am curious to see if he shows tomorrow.
Argh! I debated where to post this and settled on headbanging and despair.
Just had my second virtual meeting with the same student who, I am 100% certain, used AI for five assignments in two classes. First meeting was about an essay with fake quotations, citations, and sources; the whole thing was pretense, with him acting like he had written this essay. Then I looked at his other essay, saw the same problems, and filed an academic integrity complaint. That meeting is with my chair in a few weeks.
Meanwhile, I reviewed his final exams, both of which contain generic claims and almost no evidence (in the few cases where evidence appears, it's wrong). Met with him about these, separate from the integrity meeting because I can't "prove" AI. Again it was an absurd charade in which he pretended to be "looking at his notes." Upshot: he admitted to randomly tossing in comments like, "As we learned in lecture," to make it look as though he was referring to course material.
What a waste of time. I should have asked him a few questions and then gotten off the call. Instead, I allowed him to blather on about how stressed and anxious and exhausted he was, how busy he was with his multiple jobs and summer courses, how he's already switched to a different major, how he was blown away that I was asking all these questions and wanting to see his notes, how in four years nothing like this had ever, EVER happened to him before, and on and on. Oh, and if he has to drop his summer courses and pay another year's tuition, that'll be my fault, of course. For "bashing" him.
He's likely going to fail these classes anyway, because his exams are garbage and his essays are full of falsified material. Why not just 'fess up and save us all the phoniness and aggravation?
I need to get a lot better at cutting this type of thing off at the knees, that's for sure.
History_grrrl, that sounds so frustrating. And infuriating. What a complete toad that student is. I hope he gets everything that's coming to him. You are a wonder of patience!
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 03, 2023, 07:31:06 PM
Meanwhile, I reviewed his final exams, both of which contain generic claims and almost no evidence (in the few cases where evidence appears, it's wrong). Met with him about these, separate from the integrity meeting because I can't "prove" AI. Again it was an absurd charade in which he pretended to be "looking at his notes." Upshot: he admitted to randomly tossing in comments like, "As we learned in lecture," to make it look as though he was referring to course material.
He's likely going to fail these classes anyway, because his exams are garbage and his essays are full of falsified material. Why not just 'fess up and save us all the phoniness and aggravation?
I need to get a lot better at cutting this type of thing off at the knees, that's for sure.
For what it's worth, I do get students who write things like that with no assistance from AI.
I'm sure you're right about this student, but I still think this is going to end up being a bad use of your time and energy. You're getting drawn into this guy's bs because you need him to admit to cheating and he knows it. You can't really prove he used a bot to write his essay. If you give him the failing grade on the exam that it deserves he hasn't gotten away with anything. He probably would have gotten a better grade by writing his own crummy essay.
I just can't imagine you really want to spend your time with ineffective cheaters instead of students who are actually trying.
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2023, 05:36:53 AM
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 03, 2023, 07:31:06 PM
Meanwhile, I reviewed his final exams, both of which contain generic claims and almost no evidence (in the few cases where evidence appears, it's wrong). Met with him about these, separate from the integrity meeting because I can't "prove" AI. Again it was an absurd charade in which he pretended to be "looking at his notes." Upshot: he admitted to randomly tossing in comments like, "As we learned in lecture," to make it look as though he was referring to course material.
He's likely going to fail these classes anyway, because his exams are garbage and his essays are full of falsified material. Why not just 'fess up and save us all the phoniness and aggravation?
I need to get a lot better at cutting this type of thing off at the knees, that's for sure.
For what it's worth, I do get students who write things like that with no assistance from AI.
I'm sure you're right about this student, but I still think this is going to end up being a bad use of your time and energy. You're getting drawn into this guy's bs because you need him to admit to cheating and he knows it. You can't really prove he used a bot to write his essay. If you give him the failing grade on the exam that it deserves he hasn't gotten away with anything. He probably would have gotten a better grade by writing his own crummy essay.
I just can't imagine you really want to spend your time with ineffective cheaters instead of students who are actually trying.
I completely agree. There are problems with the exams, and I thought I should give him a chance to explain if he could. The "explanations" are bogus, so now I can just go ahead and grade as is. My mistake was giving him time and space to ruminate about all his problems and blame me for them. Lesson learned.
You can try typing the essay prompt into ChatGPT. My bet it you'd get a very, very similar essay to what he submitted. Now, it doesn't prove that the student used Ai, but does demonstrate the similarities in the writing.
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class. Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 04, 2023, 06:54:35 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 04, 2023, 05:36:53 AM
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 03, 2023, 07:31:06 PM
Meanwhile, I reviewed his final exams, both of which contain generic claims and almost no evidence (in the few cases where evidence appears, it's wrong). Met with him about these, separate from the integrity meeting because I can't "prove" AI. Again it was an absurd charade in which he pretended to be "looking at his notes." Upshot: he admitted to randomly tossing in comments like, "As we learned in lecture," to make it look as though he was referring to course material.
He's likely going to fail these classes anyway, because his exams are garbage and his essays are full of falsified material. Why not just 'fess up and save us all the phoniness and aggravation?
I need to get a lot better at cutting this type of thing off at the knees, that's for sure.
For what it's worth, I do get students who write things like that with no assistance from AI.
I'm sure you're right about this student, but I still think this is going to end up being a bad use of your time and energy. You're getting drawn into this guy's bs because you need him to admit to cheating and he knows it. You can't really prove he used a bot to write his essay. If you give him the failing grade on the exam that it deserves he hasn't gotten away with anything. He probably would have gotten a better grade by writing his own crummy essay.
I just can't imagine you really want to spend your time with ineffective cheaters instead of students who are actually trying.
I completely agree. There are problems with the exams, and I thought I should give him a chance to explain if he could. The "explanations" are bogus, so now I can just go ahead and grade as is. My mistake was giving him time and space to ruminate about all his problems and blame me for them. Lesson learned.
I know the feeling. Most of the ways we interact with people are based on the idea that the person is basically well intentioned. If they are acting in frustrating ways, we assume it's mostly cluelessness, rather than actual malice. That's generally a good way to approach the world, but it can make it hard to switch to a different mode when it becomes apparent that someone actually just has bad intentions and is a liar and a manipulator. Then the person leaves and you realize "wait, why was I trying to pretend any of this deserved a response or hearing?
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class. Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class. Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
The default outcome is that the student fails. It is up to the student to take action to avert that outcome. Indeed, since student's current grade is 25%, I doubt any amount of effort at this stage will be enough to change that outcome. I'm not making any efforts to help the student sort out their problems.
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 12:24:27 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
The default outcome is that the student fails. It is up to the student to take action to avert that outcome. Indeed, since student's current grade is 25%, I doubt any amount of effort at this stage will be enough to change that outcome. I'm not making any efforts to help the student sort out their problems.
Well, that makes it easy. If it's not mathematically possible for them to pass, just record the failing grade and call it done.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 03:40:08 PM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 12:24:27 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
The default outcome is that the student fails. It is up to the student to take action to avert that outcome. Indeed, since student's current grade is 25%, I doubt any amount of effort at this stage will be enough to change that outcome. I'm not making any efforts to help the student sort out their problems.
Well, that makes it easy. If it's not mathematically possible for them to pass, just record the failing grade and call it done.
That's my plan. We will see how it unfolds. If legiimate doctor's notes actually get produced, it might get complicated. So far, it's all been rather vague, with some reference to medical problems.
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 05:23:54 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 03:40:08 PM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 12:24:27 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
The default outcome is that the student fails. It is up to the student to take action to avert that outcome. Indeed, since student's current grade is 25%, I doubt any amount of effort at this stage will be enough to change that outcome. I'm not making any efforts to help the student sort out their problems.
Well, that makes it easy. If it's not mathematically possible for them to pass, just record the failing grade and call it done.
That's my plan. We will see how it unfolds. If legiimate doctor's notes actually get produced, it might get complicated. So far, it's all been rather vague, with some reference to medical problems.
If doctor's notes are produced after the end of the semester, then that would be the chair's headache. Accommodations for students who need them are effective only after the date in the letter from the Disabilities office.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: downer on May 04, 2023, 07:12:07 AM
Student performs pretty badly all semester, arrives late to class. Says they were present when I didn't see them. Now final paper is past due, and student says that they uploaded it, along with a medical excuse for not being able to do a presentation in person. But nothing is uploaded.
There's about a 5% chance the student really does have medical problems, and a 95% chance they are bullshitting. But I have to be nice to them until it is all over.
And that is why I have students turn something in with their name on it every class. Granted, I teach labs, but I'd do the same for any lecture day where attendance & participation matter.
For the whole "I uploaded it!", ask them to please send you a screenshot of where they uploaded and/or please email it to you by a set date & time.
I just tell students that if they come late, they have to come up at the end of class for me to mark them late instead of absent on attendance. If they tell me the next class, that they forgot, I'll believe them and add them in, but probably only once...The name thing would be nice, but I have a lot of students and no TA, am not very efficient at entering things into gradesheets, and need to avoid large piles of paper.
For the upload thing, one of the real advantages of giving out extensions like candy is that you can just pretend to believe students. I would have given you an extension anyway, so there's no actual advantage you get by lying to me.
End-of-Term extra submissions this semester were at an all-time low. It was a lot of extra credit, and the work to earn it was very low.
I even went out of my way to spend extra time advertising it.
For one class, only 20% of the class submitted the extra credit. I've never had anything even close to that low before. In most classes, submissions for this will range from 50% to nearly 100%.
There are too many students this semester that just don't seem motivated into minimum effort.
Quote from: Aster on May 05, 2023, 08:27:31 AM
End-of-Term extra submissions this semester were at an all-time low. It was a lot of extra credit, and the work to earn it was very low.
I even went out of my way to spend extra time advertising it.
For one class, only 20% of the class submitted the extra credit. I've never had anything even close to that low before. In most classes, submissions for this will range from 50% to nearly 100%.
There are too many students this semester that just don't seem motivated into minimum effort.
Same here. I rarely give extra credit but did so this semester to help the slackers. Everyone acts excited in class, then I get 3 extra credit submissions total.
I do everything humanly possible to motivate students. And yet, I cannot break through this wall of post-pandemic apathy.
Quote from: lilyb on May 05, 2023, 09:30:24 AM
Quote from: Aster on May 05, 2023, 08:27:31 AM
End-of-Term extra submissions this semester were at an all-time low. It was a lot of extra credit, and the work to earn it was very low.
I even went out of my way to spend extra time advertising it.
For one class, only 20% of the class submitted the extra credit. I've never had anything even close to that low before. In most classes, submissions for this will range from 50% to nearly 100%.
There are too many students this semester that just don't seem motivated into minimum effort.
Same here. I rarely give extra credit but did so this semester to help the slackers. Everyone acts excited in class, then I get 3 extra credit submissions total.
I do everything humanly possible to motivate students. And yet, I cannot break through this wall of post-pandemic apathy.
Me too...
I teach at different schools and with various populations. The 18 and 19 year old community college students have major problems, even more than previously. They have little staying power.
I'm not seeing much change in students at the more selective school I teach at. Also the CC nursing students are still motivated, though they also often have a bunch of family issues.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 04, 2023, 07:04:55 AM
You can try typing the essay prompt into ChatGPT. My bet it you'd get a very, very similar essay to what he submitted. Now, it doesn't prove that the student used Ai, but does demonstrate the similarities in the writing.
I actually did this for AI Guy and the similarities were very striking.
I asked him for some of his class notes to see if there was anything to explain the content of his two exams. He did this, after bitching about my demands, and the notes are garbage; no lecture notes, no reading notes, just a few notes from his seminar discussions (presumably other students' observations). No wonder he turned to AI. He also thoughtfully let me know what grades on his exams would allow him to pass the classes.
I graded his exams as if they weren't AI, and with additional knowledge from him about how he inappropriately tweaked his essays. Both are Fs. If he gets 0s on his essays (not my decision, ultimately), he will fail both classes. Since he truly doesn't understand why making up footnotes is a problem, I don't think he'll fare well.
Grad student with an incomplete notified me that she'd be turning in the work at the end of the semester, 2 days hence. It turned out she hadn't done any of the assignments.
She has had a rough time of it in her out of school life, so I gave her a further extension. Not sure she'll actually use it.
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 07:45:48 AM
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
I would forward this email to the chair/dean/Stu's advisor and/or the appropriate person in your institution.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 08, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 07:45:48 AM
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
I would forward this email to the chair/dean/Stu's advisor and/or the appropriate person in your institution.
Stu's advisor and our Associate Dean of Academics are both in the loop in case this gets completely out of hand. I found out that Stu asked his advisor to intercede also, and his advisor said he'd received an email from Stu's mother and he gave her the FERPA schpiel and she hasn't gotten back to him yet.
<unrelated venting>
Ugh. We've allowed a student to do whatever the frack they want for the past year. I wasted time and energy in the Fall trying to hold the line and was not supported; then I had to spend more time and energy giving the student what they wanted anyway. I have no evidence that I'll be supported if I try to hold the line now. So, why am I being asked to do so by departmental administration under the pretense that anyone will actually support me in holding the line? Everyone else has already caved!
We all know how this is going to end. Why are we pretending otherwise?
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 10:49:35 AM
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 08, 2023, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 07:45:48 AM
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
I would forward this email to the chair/dean/Stu's advisor and/or the appropriate person in your institution.
Stu's advisor and our Associate Dean of Academics are both in the loop in case this gets completely out of hand. I found out that Stu asked his advisor to intercede also, and his advisor said he'd received an email from Stu's mother and he gave her the FERPA schpiel and she hasn't gotten back to him yet.
Hope Stu and mom don't show up at your office.
I had to have a chat with the Chair today.
A student complained that I was "picking on her" because I wouldn't accept her work.
Assignments have a required name format and a required file format (pdf). They have had this requirement all semester. This student has failed to either format the file correctly, or name it correctly, or both, on every single assignments (16 total) this semester. So she has racked up an impressive 1 1/2 letter grade penalty for late submissions. Every time, she does it wrong, gets a zero, throws a fit, then does it right. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Chair was concerned my class would prevent student from graduating. (It won't, she'll still pass, barely, I think)
After meeting with Chair....Chair gets notification that student isn't graduating because.....she never submitted her graduation paperwork.
Quote from: Langue_doc on May 08, 2023, 01:18:41 PM
Hope Stu and mom don't show up at your office.
I'll be away for a lot of the summer after this week, but if they do happen to be here at the same time I am, my dept chair, who is here all summer and just down the hall, is retired military, and my office neighbor has some kind of fancy belt in some kind of judo/aikido/karate/whatever. Not that I'm advocating violence. Seriously though, I'm pretty good at wielding the polite but firm, "You need to go now," or "You need to stop talking and leave," sort of response. I'm thinking the same tone of voice I use on students when they're being unruly would work on parents as well. And if not, I'll call campus security.
I always have in my syllabus a line saying that it's my policy to not discuss any student's academic issues with third parties outside the College or the student's high school (if they're dual-enrolled). That is, FERPA says I can't discuss with third parties without the student's permission, but I go further and say that I won't, period. Over the years I've had a couple of parents try to push it, but I've referred them to my chair, who's pointed back to my policy, and given them the "if s/he's a college student, s/he's old enough to handle these situations on her/his own" lecture, on top of it. It's saved me a lot of needless headaches over the years.
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 07:45:48 AM
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
I've had students asking about their grades and so with another professor - in fairness to them, they weren't grade-grubbing, at least not explicitly, and we were both teaching the same class (different lab rotations).
Quote from: Stockmann on May 09, 2023, 08:29:21 AM
Quote from: EdnaMode on May 08, 2023, 07:45:48 AM
Had a student contact me via several emails over the weekend (that I didn't read until this morning) and by a phone call just now, to ask if I would reach out to another professor and ask him to "bump up my grade because I asked him to change it from a D to a C and he was unwilling to do so," and if the request came from a faculty member and not a student, the prof might be willing to help him out. I told him no way, under no circumstances would I do that, and it was completely inappropriate to ask me to do so. What planet is this kid living on?
I've had students asking about their grades and so with another professor - in fairness to them, they weren't grade-grubbing, at least not explicitly, and we were both teaching the same class (different lab rotations).
This was a prof in another department, in a subject that I don't teach, so it was very much inappropriate. And even if it were in the same department and a different section of a course I teach, I would consider it out of line. I might help the student with how to approach a discussion with their professor so they came across well, but would never presume to question a colleague's grading, or at least not in front of, or with, a student, and would be rather put out if a colleague approached me to change the grade of a student in one of my courses.
Quote from: AmLitHist on May 09, 2023, 08:25:01 AM
I always have in my syllabus a line saying that it's my policy to not discuss any student's academic issues with third parties outside the College or the student's high school (if they're dual-enrolled). That is, FERPA says I can't discuss with third parties without the student's permission, but I go further and say that I won't, period. Over the years I've had a couple of parents try to push it, but I've referred them to my chair, who's pointed back to my policy, and given them the "if s/he's a college student, s/he's old enough to handle these situations on her/his own" lecture, on top of it. It's saved me a lot of needless headaches over the years.
I'll have to investigate whether I can get away with this... my chair would support it, but some of the people higher up the food chain are very focused on keeping students happy, going above and beyond to ensure success, etc., and have specifically said that includes working with parents. I do avoid parents if at all possible, and once I mention FERPA they usually go away, or else if they press it, more than half the time their students choose not to give permission.
Quote from: FishProf on May 08, 2023, 01:59:27 PM
I had to have a chat with the Chair today.
A student complained that I was "picking on her" because I wouldn't accept her work.
Assignments have a required name format and a required file format (pdf). They have had this requirement all semester. This student has failed to either format the file correctly, or name it correctly, or both, on every single assignments (16 total) this semester. So she has racked up an impressive 1 1/2 letter grade penalty for late submissions. Every time, she does it wrong, gets a zero, throws a fit, then does it right. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Chair was concerned my class would prevent student from graduating. (It won't, she'll still pass, barely, I think)
After meeting with Chair....Chair gets notification that student isn't graduating because.....she never submitted her graduation paperwork.
Wow. Now that is delicious irony!
I assume that means that your school is ok with your doing this? IOW, if mom shows up with a signed FERPA waiver and wants to chat about son, and you tell her your policy is you just do not ever do this, waivers-notwithstanding, and then mom trots over to some deanlet, what would he say? Indeed, private schools can and some do insist that all students, as a condition of attendance, sign a FERPA waiver, in order to allow profs and deans to communicate with parents, high school-like-- often these students are kids who are likely being judged by their parents to perhaps not really be mature enough to start college (my cousin, a kid like this, went to such a school for his first two years, and it was good that such a waiver had been signed).
I am struck by how many posts highlight that admin folks consider us the reason students are unhappy, not getting the grades they want, etc. In other words, we and our policies, course requirements, etc., are the problem.
I'm almost looking forward to my last academic misconduct meeting, coming up soon, because Stu has already bitched to me that it shouldn't matter that he made up all his footnotes because he'll never look at those essays again, and neither will I, and he's switched his major anyway now, and, and, and . . . Hopefully he'll repeat this in front of my chair and our integrity officer.
Even my chair, who is generally good on these issues, worries that our department will "look bad" to the dean's office if too many cheaters get 0s on assignments. But what else are we supposed to do?
Supervised one graduating senior for a 3-credit thesis this semester. Thesis was scaffolded around submitting drafts of different parts of the thesis throughout the semester. Student ignored my repeated comments about clarity, supporting claims with evidence, and using scholarly sources. Now student is complaining about getting a B- on the thesis.
I will be emailing her a pdf of all of my annotations and comments about her work.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 09, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
I assume that means that your school is ok with your doing this? IOW, if mom shows up with a signed FERPA waiver and wants to chat about son, and you tell her your policy is you just do not ever do this, waivers-notwithstanding, and then mom trots over to some deanlet, what would he say?
My Dean would (has, in fact) say "FERPA waivers ALLOW the professor to speak to you, they do not REQUIRE it. Your son is an adult so he can deal with this".
Only one of the reasons I love my Dean.
Quote from: spork on May 10, 2023, 05:30:49 AM
Supervised one graduating senior for a 3-credit thesis this semester. Thesis was scaffolded around submitting drafts of different parts of the thesis throughout the semester. Student ignored my repeated comments about clarity, supporting claims with evidence, and using scholarly sources. Now student is complaining about getting a B- on the thesis.
I will be emailing her a pdf of all of my annotations and comments about her work.
How dare you apply academic standards to her work? "Everyone" knows that independent research/independent study classes are an automatic A grade!
More seriously, I sometimes ask the student "what grade do you think you earned for your work this semester?" as part of our wrap-up meeting at the end of the semester. This allows us to have a conversation about whether or not the student met the expectations. Usually, students are honest about their self-evaluation. I do have to bolster the confidence of some, but I rarely have to tell a student that they have done much more poorly than they think they did. Of course, that is because all of *my* students are above average!
Why? Why? Why? Is it really so hard to PUT YOUR NAME on the paper you are submitting?
My instructions are clear and consistently applied.
"File format MUST be in Portable Document Format (PDF). Name you file [Your Last Name] - [Assignment Name]. So for the "Black Box Lab", I would name the file Fishprof - Black Box Lab.pdf"
If they don't do both, I don't accept it. ALL. SEMESTER. LONG.
And yet, for the final paper in my seminar class (ALL supposedly graduating Seniors!) I got these:
Seminar Paper.pdf
Seminar paper.doxc
Title of My Paper.pdf
My paper.pdf
My rough draft fixed.docx
Bio Seminar Paper Final Draft.pdf
In exactly ZERO of these submissions is the NAME of the student listed anywhere. I also got
FirstNameLastname - My paper.pdf
LastNameFirstName - My paper.pdf
First Name - Due date.docx
I should just give them all zeros and let them come to me. Or not, as they may choose.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 06:04:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 09, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
I assume that means that your school is ok with your doing this? IOW, if mom shows up with a signed FERPA waiver and wants to chat about son, and you tell her your policy is you just do not ever do this, waivers-notwithstanding, and then mom trots over to some deanlet, what would he say?
My Dean would (has, in fact) say "FERPA waivers ALLOW the professor to speak to you, they do not REQUIRE it. Your son is an adult so he can deal with this".
Only one of the reasons I love my Dean.
I have also been lucky that this has been the stance of the administration I've worked for. I had one case in which the administrator asked (but to their credit, did not require) me to talk to a parent who had a signed FERPA waiver and was insisting their student could not have possibly failed my intro-level gen ed class. I offered to have a meeting with the student and the parent in the room together, as I'm not having a conversation about the student without them. Parent agrees. I assumed that the parent was going to drag the student into the meeting with me. I was surprised when the parent showed up alone, stating that the student would join us. Parent keeps trying to "start" the meeting as they student must be "running late" and they don't want to waste my time because they are confident this can all be cleared up quickly. Student never showed up; parent left angry. I never heard from them again.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 06:04:05 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 09, 2023, 09:00:57 PM
I assume that means that your school is ok with your doing this? IOW, if mom shows up with a signed FERPA waiver and wants to chat about son, and you tell her your policy is you just do not ever do this, waivers-notwithstanding, and then mom trots over to some deanlet, what would he say?
My Dean would (has, in fact) say "FERPA waivers ALLOW the professor to speak to you, they do not REQUIRE it. Your son is an adult so he can deal with this".
Only one of the reasons I love my Dean.
This has always been the situation for me, too, FishProf. If it ever changes, I'd file a grievance re: academic freedom, based on years of having (and been backed up on) this same policy. Just because I CAN do something, doesn't mean I HAVE to do it, and flipping that switch on this situation could open a whole other can of worms.
ETA, in response to K16's question: I'm at a public CC, not a private place. Even when I did adjunct at my grad school (selective private Catholic university), we were ordered--as TAs and adjuncts--never to engage with parents, FERPA be damned. Then again, it's a Jesuit school--"the folks who brought you the Inquisitions," as our faculty jokingly (??) reminded us! (No, there wasn't much whining or BS tolerated there, even from legacies or big donors' kids. I guess they figured everyone knew the rules going in.)
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 10, 2023, 07:05:00 AM
I have also been lucky that this has been the stance of the administration I've worked for. I had one case in which the administrator asked (but to their credit, did not require) me to talk to a parent who had a signed FERPA waiver and was insisting their student could not have possibly failed my intro-level gen ed class. I offered to have a meeting with the student and the parent in the room together, as I'm not having a conversation about the student without them. Parent agrees. I assumed that the parent was going to drag the student into the meeting with me. I was surprised when the parent showed up alone, stating that the student would join us. Parent keeps trying to "start" the meeting as they student must be "running late" and they don't want to waste my time because they are confident this can all be cleared up quickly. Student never showed up; parent left angry. I never heard from them again.
The few times I've interacted with a parent, they always start out assuming their kid is a darling angel whose version of events is completely true - and end up sorely disappointed. I remember one - a single mom - who started out angrily accusing me of providing bad customer service and ended up crying on the phone about her son having lied to her for years about attending class and doing coursework while milking her for tuition money she could barely afford. It was really sad.
Student: Why did I lose 10 points for not having an abstract?
Me: Because the Rubric says Abstract - 10 points.
Student: But I didn't think my paper needed one.
Me [Fantasy Response 1]: Well, you were wrong, weren't you?
Me [Fantasy Response 2]: I agree with the first half of your sentence.
Me: That isn't your call to make. That is why I gave you a rubric.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 09:19:29 AM
Student: Why did I lose 10 points for not having an abstract?
Me: Because the Rubric says Abstract - 10 points.
Student: But I didn't think my paper needed one.
Me [Fantasy Response 1]: Well, you were wrong, weren't you?
Me [Fantasy Response 2]: I agree with the first half of your sentence.
Me: That isn't your call to make. That is why I gave you a rubric.
I'm getting this question, only about exam scores.
Student: Why did I get a 0 on the "draw a [basket]" question?
Me: Because you left it blank.
Student: But, does that mean I did it wrong?
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 10, 2023, 09:59:49 AM
I'm getting this question, only about exam scores.
Student: Why did I get a 0 on the "draw a [basket]" question?
Me: Because you left it blank.
Student: But, does that mean I did it wrong?
Ahhh, the old "Don't I start at 100% and only lose points for WRONG answers"? schtick.
No, no child. You start at zero. You earn points for what you do correctly (i.e. points for things that are both relevant and true).
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 10, 2023, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 09:19:29 AM
Student: Why did I lose 10 points for not having an abstract?
Me: Because the Rubric says Abstract - 10 points.
Student: But I didn't think my paper needed one.
Me [Fantasy Response 1]: Well, you were wrong, weren't you?
Me [Fantasy Response 2]: I agree with the first half of your sentence.
Me: That isn't your call to make. That is why I gave you a rubric.
I'm getting this question, only about exam scores.
Student: Why did I get a 0 on the "draw a [basket]" question?
Me: Because you left it blank.
Student: But, does that mean I did it wrong?
And this is why so many employers are so reluctant to give recent graduates--from either high school or college--a chance. It's like most of them have intellectual disability issues.
I have to revise my rubrics. There are things wrong in these papers that I didn't anticipate.
Dear Students - the Abstract is a summary, not a teaser trailer.
"In a world . . . ."
Quote from: sprezzatura on May 10, 2023, 01:32:49 PM
"In a world . . . ."
"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away . . ." That's what they really meant.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 01:04:15 PM
I have to revise my rubrics. There are things wrong in these papers that I didn't anticipate.
Dear Students - the Abstract is a summary, not a teaser trailer.
As my postdoc advisor used to say "It's not a mystery story. Tell them what you plan to tell them. Then tell them. Then tell them what you told them."
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 10, 2023, 10:22:46 PM
Quote from: sprezzatura on May 10, 2023, 01:32:49 PM
"In a world . . . ."
"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away . . ." That's what they really meant.
"Since the dawn of time, humans have longed for . . . ."
Damn. A plagiarism case just fell into my lap. The student is inarguably guilty. The paper was flagged by SafeAssign and it looks highly suspicious, but the poster he submitted is a slam-dunk case.
"In the GMO Corn Experiment, we test the hypothesis that wild animals such as squirrels and deer prefer non-GMO corn, and avoid GMO corn. If there is something that makes animals avoid GMO corn, we should know about it. Such a finding would have widespread impacts. If animals don't have a preference, then we can focus on other issues."
Ummm, this is a literature survey, and YOU didn't do any of this (as it took place in 2016, when you were a sophomore in high school.
This student is supposed to graduate, and is applying to med school. He has a med school committee interview scheduled for next week.
Or, at least, he did.
Dear TA,
When YOU ruin an experiment for an entire lab section of students because you didn't follow basic instructions, yes I will have you redo the setup for the class.
No, the other TAs don't "have to do this". Why not? They did it correctly the first time!
Will you please, please graduate so I never have to work with you again.
I hereby submit my credentials retain my reputation as Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls (though FishProf's situation might actually beat me out):
--No, student, you can't magically have "remembered" that you didn't include a WC page on that final paper and now turn it in 4 days after I submitted final grades. (She pulled this BS earlier in the semester--two weeks after that deadline--and I didn't buy it then, either.) I grade what you submit by the deadline. Don't act like this is some big shock.
--I guess it's too bad you won't be graduating from HS, dual-enrolled kid who submitted TWO assignments all spring, and only got worried after I posted final grades. It's not like I didn't send you FIVE "you need to withdraw or fail" emails since March, rack up four early alerts with Academic Advising, or submit three separate notices about you to the DE office that then also went directly to your HS--oh, wait, I DID.
--You, other DE student, won't be graduating, either. Giving me a BS list of non-existent sources as your WC page, in addition to nary an "according to" nor a sign of an in-text citation, along with similar notifications about your miserable performance all semester (like the other guy), all combined to seal that deal. Enjoy sweating it out in summer school and/or hanging around for another semester. Smart money says you probably won't pass then, either.
--Similarly, after the same kinds and numbers of notifications as with the others above, Smart Ass Girl, you earned an F for the semester, not just based on your points, but because you plagiarized in exactly the same way on the two final major papers--after I'd read you the riot act on the first plagiarism. (And yes, I know you're headed for your second semester of academic probation, not just because of me, but also because you raised so much hell trying to get my BFF colleague fired for "ruining your life" because you just "missed a few" assignments in her class--to the tune of only submitting 2 out of 30+ quizzes, discussions, tests, and assignments, and failing one of those). I'm probably a horrible person, but I'm loving seeing this one bite the dust, not only via probation but likely via a year's suspension on top of that, due to the plagiarisms.
All of these were Comp II students, who by the end of a sophomore-level class loaded with plagiarism avoidance and MLA documentation materials and assignments, should know better.
I can't express how glad I am that this spring is over--and I don't even much care that my summer classes look like they won't make (no matter how much I could use that money).
I'm honestly not a mean person. I've helped a ton of students over the years, and I got better reviews and student comments this spring from more students than ever before. But for jokers who want to screw around and play games, "ain't nobody got time for that," as they say.
Quote from: FishProf on May 10, 2023, 10:04:05 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 10, 2023, 09:59:49 AM
I'm getting this question, only about exam scores.
Student: Why did I get a 0 on the "draw a [basket]" question?
Me: Because you left it blank.
Student: But, does that mean I did it wrong?
Ahhh, the old "Don't I start at 100% and only lose points for WRONG answers"? schtick.
No, no child. You start at zero. You earn points for what you do correctly (i.e. points for things that are both relevant and true).
How does someone get all the way to college not understanding this?
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:40:10 PM
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Probably not, but credit for homework that is just "complete" is a thing.
Quote from: FishProf on May 15, 2023, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:40:10 PM
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Probably not, but credit for homework that is just "complete" is a thing.
I mean that's kind of how I grade response papers. If you writes something that indicates that you at least sort of read the assigned reading, you get a 100. If they misunderstood the article, that's why we are going to talk about in class.
Quote from: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 05:31:38 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 15, 2023, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:40:10 PM
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Probably not, but credit for homework that is just "complete" is a thing.
I mean that's kind of how I grade response papers. If you writes something that indicates that you at least sort of read the assigned reading, you get a 100. If they misunderstood the article, that's why we are going to talk about in class.
Yeah, me too. If that becomes the expectation that students have for grading, maybe it could lead to what the_geneticist is asking about. Maybe.
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2023, 07:46:19 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 05:31:38 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 15, 2023, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:40:10 PM
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Probably not, but credit for homework that is just "complete" is a thing.
I mean that's kind of how I grade response papers. If you writes something that indicates that you at least sort of read the assigned reading, you get a 100. If they misunderstood the article, that's why we are going to talk about in class.
Yeah, me too. If that becomes the expectation that students have for grading, maybe it could lead to what the_geneticist is asking about. Maybe.
But I bet you'd give them a 0 if they turned in a blank piece of paper.
Plus, this was a midterm exam!
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 16, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2023, 07:46:19 AM
Quote from: Caracal on May 16, 2023, 05:31:38 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 15, 2023, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: smallcleanrat on May 14, 2023, 08:40:10 PM
Did they ever get 100% on an assignment or exam for turning in a blank piece of paper in K-12?
Probably not, but credit for homework that is just "complete" is a thing.
I mean that's kind of how I grade response papers. If you writes something that indicates that you at least sort of read the assigned reading, you get a 100. If they misunderstood the article, that's why we are going to talk about in class.
Yeah, me too. If that becomes the expectation that students have for grading, maybe it could lead to what the_geneticist is asking about. Maybe.
But I bet you'd give them a 0 if they turned in a blank piece of paper.
Plus, this was a midterm exam!
Well yes, or if they write something that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the reading at all.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 16, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
But I bet you'd give them a 0 if they turned in a blank piece of paper.
Plus, this was a midterm exam!
Well, yeah. I'm not trying to justify it, only to understand it.
[Double Post]. I am teaching a course that started today for the summer session. Typically, the class runs with > 10 students, but it only drew 2, both of which need it for different reasons. OK, fine, I'll get paid a little extra to retool the class for the fall and we can try put some new labs I've been eyeing.
So we meet. I know both students, it goes great, this will be a good thing. They get the whole rundown introductory "Top 10 Things You Need to Know" lecture and I send them on their way to get started, get their books, and take the syllabus quiz. Time: 2:47pm.
I just got two emails from students who just joined. Paraphrasing/combining.
"Hi. I just joined your class that run from 1-4, but when I went to the room, there wasn't anyone there. Did I miss anything? Can you post a recording of the lecture?"
1) Yes, you missed class,
2) No, I didn't record the lecture, because everyone who was registered for the class was there.
3) I lest the room at 3, so you were at least two hours late.
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Quote from: AmLitHist on May 14, 2023, 09:56:00 AM
I hereby submit my credentials retain my reputation as Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls (though FishProf's situation might actually beat me out):
....
I'm honestly not a mean person. I've helped a ton of students over the years, and I got better reviews and student comments this spring from more students than ever before. But for jokers who want to screw around and play games, "ain't nobody got time for that," as they say.
AmLitHist, I nearly always relate to your posts, and most definitely this one.
Had my last academic misconduct meeting the other day with Stu who pulled this crap (undoubtedly AI) on five separate assignments. Official meeting was about his two final essays, and include chair and campus academic integrity officer. After I outlined what I found and Chair asked Stu to explain the fake quotations, fake citations, fake sources, etc., Stu treated us to a litany of his problems: roommate moved out so he was stuck with the rent, prospect of failing my courses was causing stress and meant he had to drop his spring courses and would have to pay a whole extra year of tuition next year, etc., etc. Chair tried dragging him back to "the reason we're here." No dice; Stu simply had no explanation for these puzzling things about his papers.
By the end of this trainwreck, when we said we'd recommend 0 for both papers, Stu had the gall to ask if he could resubmit the essays and final exams so he can pass the class, because he's suddenly realizing he'll have two Fs on his transcript. I was too dumbfounded to reply. Luckily my god of a chair stepped in and told him to f--- off (not in those words, of course).
Quote from: Puget on October 15, 2019, 07:31:04 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 14, 2019, 09:43:48 PM
Don't most colleges have explicit rules against doing this, however? Indeed, how is writing one paper for two classes adequately fulfilling the need to do work for each course?
Yes, but I think there's a big difference between literally turning in the same paper (hard to imagine that working unless the assignment was *very* open ended anyway) and building on/looking at from another disciplinary perspective the same topic across classes, which is something I wish happened a lot more. If they want to do that I'm all for it and I'm not going to worry about whether some bits of text end up appearing in both papers. After all, the goal is learning, not producing widgets (at least my goal).
Right, it would be fine with me if a student took a few paragraphs from a paper they had written for another class as long as they were actually doing this in the process of creating a totally different essay. To borrow a phrase from copyright law, it needs to be transformed, rather than just patched together.
Quote from: FishProf on May 16, 2023, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 16, 2023, 01:11:59 PM
But I bet you'd give them a 0 if they turned in a blank piece of paper.
Plus, this was a midterm exam!
Well, yeah. I'm not trying to justify it, only to understand it.
My best guess is they 'speed ran' the exam, didn't realize they'd skipped those questions, and their surprise is that they can't just revise and resubmit for more points.
The whole "you can't fail me for something I didn't do" mindset. But, it's just my best guess.
Quote from: history_grrrl on May 17, 2023, 05:16:56 AM
Quote from: AmLitHist on May 14, 2023, 09:56:00 AM
I hereby submit my credentials retain my reputation as Destroyer of Dreams and Crusher of Souls (though FishProf's situation might actually beat me out):
....
I'm honestly not a mean person. I've helped a ton of students over the years, and I got better reviews and student comments this spring from more students than ever before. But for jokers who want to screw around and play games, "ain't nobody got time for that," as they say.
AmLitHist, I nearly always relate to your posts, and most definitely this one.
Had my last academic misconduct meeting the other day with Stu who pulled this crap (undoubtedly AI) on five separate assignments. Official meeting was about his two final essays, and include chair and campus academic integrity officer. After I outlined what I found and Chair asked Stu to explain the fake quotations, fake citations, fake sources, etc., Stu treated us to a litany of his problems: roommate moved out so he was stuck with the rent, prospect of failing my courses was causing stress and meant he had to drop his spring courses and would have to pay a whole extra year of tuition next year, etc., etc. Chair tried dragging him back to "the reason we're here." No dice; Stu simply had no explanation for these puzzling things about his papers.
By the end of this trainwreck, when we said we'd recommend 0 for both papers, Stu had the gall to ask if he could resubmit the essays and final exams so he can pass the class, because he's suddenly realizing he'll have two Fs on his transcript. I was too dumbfounded to reply. Luckily my god of a chair stepped in and told him to f--- off (not in those words, of course).
Another hard lesson in the consequences of one's actions and inactions.
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
Posters have talked in the past about how students like to imagine that these condensed courses will somehow be easier because they "take less time." And unscrupulous administrations sometimes let them think that.
Quote from: apl68 on May 18, 2023, 08:13:29 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
Posters have talked in the past about how students like to imagine that these condensed courses will somehow be easier because they "take less time." And unscrupulous administrations sometimes let them think that.
Yep. And it's particularly damaging to students who tried the course and didn't pass when it's the normally paced version. There is no way they will pass when it's the lightning speed summer version. But sure, take their money, let them fail again, and then make them beg to not be kicked out of their major & allow a 3rd attempt.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
At least in Canada, I find a lot of premeds take organic chem, known to be a difficult course for many, in the summer, because many med schools (in Canada) don't look at summer courses when calculating GPA, and GPA is incredibly important in Canada for med school admissions. I enjoyed organic chem and did well, but I know most consider it one of the tougher courses.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on May 18, 2023, 09:50:39 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
At least in Canada, I find a lot of premeds take organic chem, known to be a difficult course for many, in the summer, because many med schools (in Canada) don't look at summer courses when calculating GPA, and GPA is incredibly important in Canada for med school admissions. I enjoyed organic chem and did well, but I know most consider it one of the tougher courses.
We discourage taking the Med School required courses in the summer because some most(?) schools won't accept* Summer and/or Community College courses.
*or look askance at those courses, particularly if a student has a lot of them (pers.comm.)
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 09:30:54 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 18, 2023, 08:13:29 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
Posters have talked in the past about how students like to imagine that these condensed courses will somehow be easier because they "take less time." And unscrupulous administrations sometimes let them think that.
Yep. And it's particularly damaging to students who tried the course and didn't pass when it's the normally paced version. There is no way they will pass when it's the lightning speed summer version. But sure, take their money, let them fail again, and then make them beg to not be kicked out of their major & allow a 3rd attempt.
This is likely why the second-half-of-semester 8-week classes are such a disaster: between the students who were failing the 16-week early on and decided to try again and the students who were not motivated enough to register in time for the 16-week class, many are doomed from the start.
Quote from: FishProf on May 18, 2023, 10:03:54 AM
Quote from: MarathonRunner on May 18, 2023, 09:50:39 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 18, 2023, 07:38:08 AM
Quote from: Antiphon1 on May 16, 2023, 02:21:06 PM
A student just asked if there were lecture recordings for. a 1 week class that started yesterday meaning he has missed 2 days or 40% of the class. He didn't add until yesterday afternoon (yes, I work at that sort of place) and didn't bother to email me until 5 minutes ago. This will not be an easy conversation for him.
Our summer classes are like that too! I don't understand why the "powers that be" allow students to register until the end of week 2, even if the class is condensed to just 5 weeks. It's not possible to "get caught up" when you've missed 40% of a course!
And they offer a special "take a year of organic chemistry over 10 weeks!" class that is just a cash grab. Students ask if I think they should take it. I ask them if they LOVE chemistry. If yes + no other plans/no job + good study habits = go for it. Otherwise no. The students are under the false impression that there is no way that 30+ weeks of content and labs will be crammed into 10 weeks and that it will be a trimmed down course. Nope. It's all of it with minimal time to think about things.
At least in Canada, I find a lot of premeds take organic chem, known to be a difficult course for many, in the summer, because many med schools (in Canada) don't look at summer courses when calculating GPA, and GPA is incredibly important in Canada for med school admissions. I enjoyed organic chem and did well, but I know most consider it one of the tougher courses.
We discourage taking the Med School required courses in the summer because some most(?) schools won't accept* Summer and/or Community College courses.
*or look askance at those courses, particularly if a student has a lot of them (pers.comm.)
Most med schools in Canada no longer have prerequisites, but students need the knowledge for the MCAT for schools that need the MCAT, and for the few schools that still have prerequisites, summer courses count as fulfilling requirements, but don't count for GPA. So it's a thing that Canadian premeds take organic chem, and other courses that could lower their GPA in the summer. It's something that should be changed, imo, but I'm "only" an inter professional health care provider, not an MD.
Students, stop pretending you don't know how to upload a .pdf file! You've had to do this MANY times in this class. No, I will not keep track of your emailed files for you. No, I will not grade things you email me instead of uploading like you were asked. No, I will not upload it for you.
I've had to reply "We will only grade submissions that are uploaded" to at least 10 students just today.
Sorry for the double-post.
Colleague,
You need to post grades from lecture. Students are in full-on panic mode. They have turned in 3 of the 5 [baskets]. You have only graded the first one. They are turning in another [basket] this week.
At this point, you may as well just give them points for completion since they have 0 feedback on what they need to improve.
When you described your plans before the start of the quarter, I told you that you were going to spend HOURS grading these [baskets]. You said it wouldn't be that much time/work. Just post the grades.
So what will happen if the students complain that, since colleague did not in fact grade the old assignments before the students had to submit the new ones, this was unfair, and poor grades earned therefore are not legitimate?
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 22, 2023, 09:53:44 PM
So what will happen if the students complain that, since colleague did not in fact grade the old assignments before the students had to submit the new ones, this was unfair, and poor grades earned therefore are not legitimate?
The students will have a very valid complaint and grounds for a grade appeal.
Update:d late adding student dropped the class last Thursday and did not get a refund. No good outcome for the institution in this instance. I predict the student will complain up the chain and get the money refunded after much rending of clothing and gnashing of teeth. So glad to be done until fall.
A student emailed me to make an appointment to talk about their presentation for Week 10. We scheduled a time. Student showed up and wants to talk about how to make a presentation in [pottery]. My class is [baskets]. Both classes do have a presentation in Week 10, but they are different classes. Stu looked at the WRONG office door. Dr. [pottery class] and I do have offices in the same building, but not next to each other. And our names are on the doors! Our names aren't similar, don't rhyme, and don't even start with the same letter.
Stu was very embarrassed, but I still don't know how they made that mistake.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 24, 2023, 01:13:12 PM
A student emailed me to make an appointment to talk about their presentation for Week 10. We scheduled a time. Student showed up and wants to talk about how to make a presentation in [pottery]. My class is [baskets]. Both classes do have a presentation in Week 10, but they are different classes. Stu looked at the WRONG office door. Dr. [pottery class] and I do have offices in the same building, but not next to each other. And our names are on the doors! Our names aren't similar, don't rhyme, and don't even start with the same letter.
Stu was very embarrassed, but I still don't know how they made that mistake.
Probably the same way we walk into the wrong classroom, start setting up, suddenly realize our error, and then have to make a dainty exit. I mean, not me of course, but I've heard of it happening . . .
Quote from: fishbrains on May 24, 2023, 10:20:05 PM
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 24, 2023, 01:13:12 PM
A student emailed me to make an appointment to talk about their presentation for Week 10. We scheduled a time. Student showed up and wants to talk about how to make a presentation in [pottery]. My class is [baskets]. Both classes do have a presentation in Week 10, but they are different classes. Stu looked at the WRONG office door. Dr. [pottery class] and I do have offices in the same building, but not next to each other. And our names are on the doors! Our names aren't similar, don't rhyme, and don't even start with the same letter.
Stu was very embarrassed, but I still don't know how they made that mistake.
Probably the same way we walk into the wrong classroom, start setting up, suddenly realize our error, and then have to make a dainty exit. I mean, not me of course, but I've heard of it happening . . .
I always try to assume a look on my face and walk out in a way that might suggest to the students who were wandering who the hell I was, that actually I was supposed to be in the classroom, but now it is time for me to depart.
You could try carrying a measuring tape wherever you go. That way, if you wander into the wrong room you can pretend to take measurements of windows, desk, wall screen, or whatever else may be handy before going out.
Quote from: apl68 on May 25, 2023, 07:33:54 AM
You could try carrying a measuring tape wherever you go. That way, if you wander into the wrong room you can pretend to take measurements of windows, desk, wall screen, or whatever else may be handy before going out.
I love it! Look very serious and write down things on a legal pad.
Quote from: the_geneticist on May 25, 2023, 09:10:12 AM
Quote from: apl68 on May 25, 2023, 07:33:54 AM
You could try carrying a measuring tape wherever you go. That way, if you wander into the wrong room you can pretend to take measurements of windows, desk, wall screen, or whatever else may be handy before going out.
I love it! Look very serious and write down things on a legal pad.
When I needed to walk and think at work, I would carry around a file folder and walk with a sense of purpose.
That what the old school lab timer is for. Back in grad school, those got me out of many a chat with the chatty Cathy's in the department!
Why do students sign up for a 4-week course knowing that they're going to miss a full week for vacation. I just heard a 20yo say , "I'm gonna miss June 1-8 because my daddy is taking us to the Bahamas." I wanted to respond "then this is not the class for you."
I have a similar case. Seven week class (12 meetings), student will miss 3 of them. STU emailed me asking how he could "make up the labs"?
You can't. This is a field course. Tomorrow we will be in the field for ~8hrs. There is no way to recreate the experience of tromping through, and working in, a bog.
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2023, 08:54:42 AM
There is no way to recreate the experience of tromping through, and working in, a bog.
You must never have visited the dorm room my brother shared with his roommate before flunking out. Or certain other dorm rooms I've heard about.
Quote from: apl68 on May 30, 2023, 10:43:18 AM
Quote from: FishProf on May 30, 2023, 08:54:42 AM
There is no way to recreate the experience of tromping through, and working in, a bog.
You must never have visited the dorm room my brother shared with his roommate before flunking out. Or certain other dorm rooms I've heard about.
I'd be afraid to set, much less recover, the traps.
We still have two weeks of Spring term + finals week. Day after memorial day and 1/3 of students are in class. And several of them have informed me they probably won't be back after this week. Why are we still doing this?
You wanted to say that to the Bahama-bound sprite, but what *did* you say, and perhaps more importantly, at your school, what *could you do about this*?
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 30, 2023, 09:12:29 PM
You wanted to say that to the Bahama-bound sprite, but what *did* you say, and perhaps more importantly, at your school, what *could you do about this*?
I reminded her of the class policies -- due dates, hard copies, must be in class to submit work -- and suggested that she could submit the first assignment (due Monday) early. Instead, she dropped the course.
As an aside, my other fantasy response is to remind her that she's 20 years old, and maybe she's too told to call him "daddy."
Ugh. I just can't with this group of students. I assigned a scaffolding assignment for the final project, and a good number of students biffed it, mostly due to not fully following directions. I offered a small-points optional extra credit extension assignment to help students move forward. Two students plagiarized the extra credit. It wasn't worth sending academic integrity violation paperwork up the chain, as I would not be supported sending it for an optional extra credit assignment that was not on the syllabus, so I just assigned a 0 grade (with clear explanation to the students) and moved on. One of the plagiarists emailed asking if they could re-do the extra credit for a better grade. No, just no.
* kicker? grad students
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 31, 2023, 09:29:03 AM
Ugh. I just can't with this group of students. I assigned a scaffolding assignment for the final project, and a good number of students biffed it, mostly due to not fully following directions. I offered a small-points optional extra credit extension assignment to help students move forward. Two students plagiarized the extra credit. It wasn't worth sending academic integrity violation paperwork up the chain, as I would not be supported sending it for an optional extra credit assignment that was not on the syllabus, so I just assigned a 0 grade (with clear explanation to the students) and moved on. One of the plagiarists emailed asking if they could re-do the extra credit for a better grade. No, just no.
* kicker? grad students
Yikes!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on May 31, 2023, 10:55:27 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on May 31, 2023, 09:29:03 AM
Ugh. I just can't with this group of students. I assigned a scaffolding assignment for the final project, and a good number of students biffed it, mostly due to not fully following directions. I offered a small-points optional extra credit extension assignment to help students move forward. Two students plagiarized the extra credit. It wasn't worth sending academic integrity violation paperwork up the chain, as I would not be supported sending it for an optional extra credit assignment that was not on the syllabus, so I just assigned a 0 grade (with clear explanation to the students) and moved on. One of the plagiarists emailed asking if they could re-do the extra credit for a better grade. No, just no.
* kicker? grad students
Yikes!
Yes! A most discreditable way for aspiring future professionals to try earning credit.
One of my TAs has been autofilling the grade book with full credit for all assignments for all of their students. They did not understand why that was a problem!
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 07:01:30 AM
One of my TAs has been autofilling the grade book with full credit for all assignments for all of their students. They did not understand why that was a problem!
WTH? Time for a talk.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 01, 2023, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 07:01:30 AM
One of my TAs has been autofilling the grade book with full credit for all assignments for all of their students. They did not understand why that was a problem!
WTH? Time for a talk.
I'm assuming their students were not complaining!
My TAs tend to be more lenient graders than I am, even with rubrics. In one skills-based class though, I am usually able to convince them to grade the shit out of it b/c the students need that feedback--and the rubric grades are built to handle a lot of errors initially b/c of the developmental progression of student learning..
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 01, 2023, 08:27:51 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 01, 2023, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 07:01:30 AM
One of my TAs has been autofilling the grade book with full credit for all assignments for all of their students. They did not understand why that was a problem!
WTH? Time for a talk.
I'm assuming their students were not complaining!
My TAs tend to be more lenient graders than I am, even with rubrics. In one skills-based class though, I am usually able to convince them to grade the shit out of it b/c the students need that feedback--and the rubric grades are built to handle a lot of errors initially b/c of the developmental progression of student learning..
Oh indeed! The students are not complaining. They are getting full credit even if they were absent! The TA was originally grading using the rubric, but got behind, and figured this was a way to "fix" the situation. The TA's plan was to "adjust the grades if needed". How?!? Randomly take off a point here are there? Remember to put in zeros for anyone who was gone?
It's week 9 of 10. I'm just done.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 09:02:50 AM
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 01, 2023, 08:27:51 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 01, 2023, 08:03:59 AM
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 07:01:30 AM
One of my TAs has been autofilling the grade book with full credit for all assignments for all of their students. They did not understand why that was a problem!
WTH? Time for a talk.
I'm assuming their students were not complaining!
My TAs tend to be more lenient graders than I am, even with rubrics. In one skills-based class though, I am usually able to convince them to grade the shit out of it b/c the students need that feedback--and the rubric grades are built to handle a lot of errors initially b/c of the developmental progression of student learning..
Oh indeed! The students are not complaining. They are getting full credit even if they were absent! The TA was originally grading using the rubric, but got behind, and figured this was a way to "fix" the situation. The TA's plan was to "adjust the grades if needed". How?!? Randomly take off a point here are there? Remember to put in zeros for anyone who was gone?
It's week 9 of 10. I'm just done.
Just damn. This reminds me of an adjunct who would give students D's and F's on tests, but let them 'make up the difference' and get an A on tests, so the entire class, except for maybe 2 people who got B's, were getting A's. The Chair was pissed. Major CF.
We have a new instructor who is giving all students 100% for just turning in assignments (no feedback, no checking for accuracy). I think the Chair might be suspicious when more than 90% of the class gets an A+.
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 01, 2023, 12:00:23 PM
We have a new instructor who is giving all students 100% for just turning in assignments (no feedback, no checking for accuracy). I think the Chair might be suspicious when more than 90% of the class gets an A+.
Sheesh!!!
The Final Exam is tomorrow. I posted a study guide, practice questions, sent reminders, encouraged folks to look a their midterms, etc.
Not sure which of these is the worst for the day before the final:
What should I study?
'Am I at risk of failing?' from Stu* with a C-
What is the question for #3 that has answer c?
Will you post more practice questions?
I will vote that the last-asking for more problems is the best of them. That at least implies that they may have exhausted the ones you did post up. Whether they are actually learning how to solve the problems, rather than just memorizing the answer is a different issue.
The first- "what should I study" Is one that will ding you on your evaluations for not providing a "study guide".
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
Good luck with the final- hopefully they all show up relatively on time.
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
I will vote that the last-asking for more problems is the best of them. That at least implies that they may have exhausted the ones you did post up. Whether they are actually learning how to solve the problems, rather than just memorizing the answer is a different issue.
The first- "what should I study" Is one that will ding you on your evaluations for not providing a "study guide".
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture! (//http://)
Good luck with the final- hopefully they all show up relatively on time.
There is a study guide.
You sure it's a student and not one of those "professional development" folks in disguise? Lol.
I could do this by learning goal, but I'm not mapping it to every day since there is a lot of overlap, repetition, and building of skills.
Dare you to say "there is 0% materials from Monday May 29th on you Final"
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
"Stu, how about watching/attending all the lectures and taking notes rather than playing the averages?" I've had the same request. This person just wants to know which lectures are most important rather than trying to synthesize the information.
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
I always get some students who seem to be peeved that they have to learn anything that isn't going to be asked directly on the exams...they want each PowerPoint slide to have the answer to an actual test question on it (likely in bold, large red font, and highlighted) and no extraneous information "that isn't on the test"...sure would make studying easy! What is the point again? Learning or checking boxes?
If you all loved that one, here's the other one from this semester that had my colleagues howling. I teach an online course required for our majors with weekly assignments, but otherwise asynchronous. So EVERYTHING is available once you pass the syllabus quiz.
One student was super peeved that I dared to have assignments due the week of exams in other courses in the major. He just couldn't believe that I wouldn't consult with the other profs to spread things out!
Hey kid- First, not all of you are taking the same courses. And second, try planning ahead! Most assignments in this course only require about 1 hour of work per week tops.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 06, 2023, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
I always get some students who seem to be peeved that they have to learn anything that isn't going to be asked directly on the exams...they want each PowerPoint slide to have the answer to an actual test question on it (likely in bold, large red font, and highlighted) and no extraneous information "that isn't on the test"...sure would make studying easy! What is the point again? Learning or checking boxes?
It may be a measure of the extent to which K-12 education has become so focused on teaching to and taking tests. Their teachers surely haven't all been telling them in so many words that school is all about testing. But with the emphasis on testing being what it is, that's the understanding of education that the students have internalized. If it's not tested it doesn't matter, just as if you don't have pictures in today's world it never happened.
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
"I promise that 100% of the questions on the exam are from material learned in class."
Quote from: the_geneticist on June 06, 2023, 06:22:15 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
"I promise that 100% of the questions on the exam are from material learned taught in class."
FTFY
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 06, 2023, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
I always get some students who seem to be peeved that they have to learn anything that isn't going to be asked directly on the exams...they want each PowerPoint slide to have the answer to an actual test question on it (likely in bold, large red font, and highlighted) and no extraneous information "that isn't on the test"...sure would make studying easy! What is the point again? Learning or checking boxes?
It may be a measure of the extent to which K-12 education has become so focused on teaching to and taking tests. Their teachers surely haven't all been telling them in so many words that school is all about testing. But with the emphasis on testing being what it is, that's the understanding of education that the students have internalized. If it's not tested it doesn't matter, just as if you don't have pictures in today's world it never happened.
I think you are right. But I teach basic science foundation graduate level medical classes--so it may be that this mentality pervades up through undergrad to a degree as well? Granted this is a small subset of individuals, but still! Overall, I try to convey to them all, though not in so many words, that "even if a particular something isn't on the test, knowing this information
might be important when you are treating your patients in the future...". Sigh.
Since you all so enjoyed my eval comment about percentages on the test, I will share one more:
"This course is supposed to be a one-credit course but it is structured like a 4 credit course. I understand that we need critical thinking and an understanding of scientific writing. However, this course was graded far too harshly for a one-credit course."
Because the grading difficulty is reflected in the number of credit hours. D'OH!
I told my students that even though this is a summer course, it's not easier than a full-semester course and requires just as much work and effort. Judging from the work I've seen so far, they apparently didn't believe me.
Errr, you don't actually have to go over something in class in order to test on it, right, so long as it was in the assigned readings?
Quote from: fosca on June 07, 2023, 07:05:47 PM
I told my students that even though this is a summer course, it's not easier than a full-semester course and requires just as much work and effort. Judging from the work I've seen so far, they apparently didn't believe me.
Yup, every year they don't believe me. This summer, on the 1st day of class, I asked them who had taken a short-term summer class before (ours are 6 weeks vs a 16 week Fall/Spring semester). A few students raised their hands. I asked them to provide their classmates with their wisdom to successfully completing a summer class. Those students said the things I usually say, so at least the class heard the warnings/advice from people other than me. I think it may have cut down some of the whining. I'm not teaching Freshman, though; this strategy probably would not work there.
Quote from: mythbuster on June 07, 2023, 11:29:51 AM
Since you all so enjoyed my eval comment about percentages on the test, I will share one more:
"This course is supposed to be a one-credit course but it is structured like a 4 credit course. I understand that we need critical thinking and an understanding of scientific writing. However, this course was graded far too harshly for a one-credit course."
Because the grading difficulty is reflected in the number of credit hours. D'OH!
Many years ago I learned that at least one of our advisors was telling students that the number of credits correlated to difficulty. When I objected, she assured me it was true and that my field was the exception.
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 07, 2023, 08:19:48 PM
Errr, you don't actually have to go over something in class in order to test on it, right, so long as it was in the assigned readings?
This probably varies by discipline. I'd say that in STEM, there don't tend to be "*assigned readings", and whether there are or not every important topic will come up in class. If a topic comes up in an exam that was never discussed in class that's usually the sign of a new or disorganized instructor who failed to cover everything he or she intended to.
*If there's a textbook, it may cover lecture topics in
more detail, but anything that didn't come up
at all in lecture probably won't be on a test.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 07, 2023, 09:59:49 AM
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: bio-nonymous on June 06, 2023, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: apl68 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: mythbuster on June 06, 2023, 08:08:40 AM
On my most recent evals I had one student who stated that I needed to give a percentage breakdown of how many questions on the exam come from each lecture!
That's bizarre. At least that student is ready to work with percentages. Or thinks so, anyway.
I always get some students who seem to be peeved that they have to learn anything that isn't going to be asked directly on the exams...they want each PowerPoint slide to have the answer to an actual test question on it (likely in bold, large red font, and highlighted) and no extraneous information "that isn't on the test"...sure would make studying easy! What is the point again? Learning or checking boxes?
It may be a measure of the extent to which K-12 education has become so focused on teaching to and taking tests. Their teachers surely haven't all been telling them in so many words that school is all about testing. But with the emphasis on testing being what it is, that's the understanding of education that the students have internalized. If it's not tested it doesn't matter, just as if you don't have pictures in today's world it never happened.
I think you are right. But I teach basic science foundation graduate level medical classes--so it may be that this mentality pervades up through undergrad to a degree as well? Granted this is a small subset of individuals, but still! Overall, I try to convey to them all, though not in so many words, that "even if a particular something isn't on the test, knowing this information might be important when you are treating your patients in the future...". Sigh.
Well, I sort of doubt that they are actually going to be treating some patient and are actually going to need to access something they learned in a foundational science class and that they haven't had to cover since in a subsequent class. More likely, it's that something you teach them comes up again in their next class with a shorter explanation that assumes they've already encountered this idea before, and then shows up in subsequent classes without much explanation at all, if any.
It usually isn't a disaster if you don't remember something or had a shaky grasp of some concept. Learning isn't just like building a structure, there's always a certain amount of relearning that goes on. But, if you're having to relearn too many things, it isn't going to work.
This seems relevant because in some ways the students who are laser focused on exams are also thinking of learning in too mechanistic a way. The first part is understanding the material and being able to see how things fit together. Studying for the exam is about making sure you're in a good position to apply that knowledge in an exam context but it won't work very well if you don't have the larger understanding in the first place. Even if you manage to cram enough into your brain to pass an exam, the lack of a larger understanding will catch up with you later.
Quote from: Caracal on June 08, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
This seems relevant because in some ways the students who are laser focused on exams are also thinking of learning in too mechanistic a way. The first part is understanding the material and being able to see how things fit together. Studying for the exam is about making sure you're in a good position to apply that knowledge in an exam context but it won't work very well if you don't have the larger understanding in the first place. Even if you manage to cram enough into your brain to pass an exam, the lack of a larger understanding will catch up with you later.
Yes! Students just don't seem to understand that there is such a thing as a "larger understanding," or skills, that they are supposed to in the process of building. It's not a recent development. Looking back, I know that I didn't fully get that either when I was in college. This sort of a mentality does somehow seem to have become more extreme over the years, though.
Quote from: apl68 on June 08, 2023, 07:54:52 AM
Quote from: Caracal on June 08, 2023, 06:58:49 AM
This seems relevant because in some ways the students who are laser focused on exams are also thinking of learning in too mechanistic a way. The first part is understanding the material and being able to see how things fit together. Studying for the exam is about making sure you're in a good position to apply that knowledge in an exam context but it won't work very well if you don't have the larger understanding in the first place. Even if you manage to cram enough into your brain to pass an exam, the lack of a larger understanding will catch up with you later.
Yes! Students just don't seem to understand that there is such a thing as a "larger understanding," or skills, that they are supposed to in the process of building. It's not a recent development. Looking back, I know that I didn't fully get that either when I was in college. This sort of a mentality does somehow seem to have become more extreme over the years, though.
Yes! In a fourth year undergrad course our prof asked us about something we had learned in a third year course. Apparently I was the only one who remembered or who was willing to answer the question. Others studied the material for the exam and apparently didn't retain it. Or didn't want to admit they had retained it? It was bizarre, I was the only one to raise my hand.
Memorization and question vetting will only take you so far in education. It takes 28 - 64 repetitions of a small amount of information for that information to be incorporated into long term memory. If you only memorize the information for a test and never apply that information, you won't remember it. Simple curriculum scope and sequence says we should engage with core discipline principles in increasingly complex manners as we progress through our programs. Meaning, those folks who forgot the information needed the refresher because they never knew the importance of the information. They need that repetition because the functional application rests on that foundational knowledge.
Adding to this... lots of factoids it's not how people learn. People learn by creating a framework, then filling in details for that framework. Those details are linked to one another and to the framework.
Someone who is knowledgeable about a subject, when presented with a factoid, recalls that definition by calling up the framework and related details.
These tests work because they assume someone who is knowledgeable about a subject will be able to check the correct boxes related to enough factoids. But do they measure deeper learning and understanding? Or an ability to analyze and apply?
Fun fact - when I taught Marketing, my colleague had her Marketing midterm (all Scantron multiple choice) out on her desk. I looked at it and wondered how I would do on the exam. First question was about advertising a change in packaging and which type of marketing information was this conveying. Then, there were four buzzwords.
I thought well, it depends. Why did they change the packaging? What were the characteristics of the market? What were the buying/consuming habits for the user? Because I could imagine scenarios where each of the four buzzwords could apply.
So not having taken her class and being specifically told which buzzword she considered most relevant to packaging changes, and it taking way too long to set up a scenario and ask students to analyze the purpose of an advertisement, well, the Other Marketing Prof would have "failed" her test.
In some cultures school is very much about dutifully memorizing and regurgitating. So my foreign students had a challenging time when I told them I assumed they would learn the factoids - I wanted them to apply, think, and create.
What I tell students is that if it appears in class or in the text, it could appear on a test, and if it appears in both, it is very important and very very likely to appear on the test. Prof's responsibility in class is not just to regurgitate the readings.
For a Spring 2023 hybrid course that had once-a-week in-person meetings I received excellent student evals. However, the one-and-only written comment any of the students provided was, "He wore the same shirt to every class period."
I was kind of pissed at first; but once I thought about it, I probably had worn the same shirt to pretty much every class meeting. Still . . .
That's all right, FishBrains--I really like that shirt on you. :-)
From here: a dual-enrolled HS student isn't graduating from HS because he not only flunked my Comp II class, but he also plagiarized in doing so . There was nary hide nor hair of a parenthetical citation, even after a whole semester of my teaching that them de facto plagiarism is just as valid as copy-and-paste or outright "stealing" plagiarism--we went over this stuff, covered it in readings and activities and exercises, etc. til I was blue in the face. He's the only student who didn't document his (extensive) borrowing. Not only did all the 18 other students make the efforts, but they did it correctly.
I spent several hours getting my documentation in a row, and he filed a formal grade appeal without even talking to me first.
As the first step of that appeal process, I met with him yesterday for over an hour. The basis of his justification that he didn't plagiarize: his disagrees with the standard MLA definition of plagiarism and with the standard, MLA, taught-to-death methods for avoiding it. "I know I didn't put in any citations. I don't have to. That doesn't mean I plagiarized." Over, and over, and over. . . .
Thank god I recorded the Teams meeting as evidence. I fully expect him to pursue this up to and including before a formal appeals committee--and in my experience, they're usually head-over-heels in favor of giving the student what they ask for. They really don't want to try that with this case. (I'm not in the mood, as my mother used to say.)
I'm left shaking (and banging) my head over this one. Maybe I should just tell my campus President, "I don't have to show up for work or grade papers. I don't want to do it. That doesn't mean you can fire me for not doing my job." Yeah; I'll let y'all know how that goes.
For what it's worth, he also failed pre-calc at my school. I don't know if that's contributing to his not graduating from HS. He might be playing both of us against the middle, hoping something works out.
(I'm not all that upset over this twerp. It's just reminded of how absurd some of these cases can be.)
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 09, 2023, 08:35:25 AM
That's all right, FishBrains--I really like that shirt on you. :-)
From here: a dual-enrolled HS student isn't graduating from HS because he not only flunked my Comp II class, but he also plagiarized in doing so . There was nary hide nor hair of a parenthetical citation, even after a whole semester of my teaching that them de facto plagiarism is just as valid as copy-and-paste or outright "stealing" plagiarism--we went over this stuff, covered it in readings and activities and exercises, etc. til I was blue in the face. He's the only student who didn't document his (extensive) borrowing. Not only did all the 18 other students make the efforts, but they did it correctly.
I spent several hours getting my documentation in a row, and he filed a formal grade appeal without even talking to me first.
As the first step of that appeal process, I met with him yesterday for over an hour. The basis of his justification that he didn't plagiarize: his disagrees with the standard MLA definition of plagiarism and with the standard, MLA, taught-to-death methods for avoiding it. "I know I didn't put in any citations. I don't have to. That doesn't mean I plagiarized." Over, and over, and over. . . .
Thank god I recorded the Teams meeting as evidence. I fully expect him to pursue this up to and including before a formal appeals committee--and in my experience, they're usually head-over-heels in favor of giving the student what they ask for. They really don't want to try that with this case. (I'm not in the mood, as my mother used to say.)
I'm left shaking (and banging) my head over this one. Maybe I should just tell my campus President, "I don't have to show up for work or grade papers. I don't want to do it. That doesn't mean you can fire me for not doing my job." Yeah; I'll let y'all know how that goes.
For what it's worth, he also failed pre-calc at my school. I don't know if that's contributing to his not graduating from HS. He might be playing both of us against the middle, hoping something works out.
(I'm not all that upset over this twerp. It's just reminded of how absurd some of these cases can be.)
Hey! Get out of my life! And, no, you can't have my favorite shirt either!
Seriously, I had a similar experience with a Chat GPT essay from a dual enrolled student last Spring.My college didn't really have a functional policy at the time, so he slithered by even after I graded the living $hit out of his essay.
These dual enrollment kids, how much oversight over the college classes they take is usually undertaken by their hs teachers/ counselors/ admins, and what if any standards do the hss use to determine which of their students would be mature enough to enroll in college classes? Do these hs staffers ever contact the professors?
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 09, 2023, 10:57:50 PM
These dual enrollment kids, how much oversight over the college classes they take is usually undertaken by their hs teachers/ counselors/ admins, and what if any standards do the hss use to determine which of their students would be mature enough to enroll in college classes? Do these hs staffers ever contact the professors?
In my experience, some high schools take dual credit and the course work very seriously. Never have to worry about those schools or the work turned in from their students. Other schools have the worst sort of ad hoc approach to the classes and administration of any standards. To be fair, the hot mess schools also play fast and loose with their high school curriculum. I've quit trying to save people who don't want to be saved. Cheaters will ultimately run out of cheatable circumstances. I don't have to be the academic firewall for all of them.
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2023, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
Rename it project rubrics and then you can tell the students that you have one. There is nothing in the definition of rubric that says it has to be a chart.
Quote from: sonoamused on June 12, 2023, 10:17:16 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2023, 05:23:59 AM
Quote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AM
Quote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Apparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Reformat to put 2 columns next to every section. 'Yep' vs 'Nope'
Now it's a rubric!
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
Rename it project rubrics and then you can tell the students that you have one. There is nothing in the definition of rubric that says it has to be a chart.
Quote from: sonoamused on June 12, 2023, 10:17:16 AMQuote from: onthefringe on April 12, 2023, 05:23:59 AMQuote from: downer on April 12, 2023, 03:42:12 AMQuote from: onthefringe on April 11, 2023, 06:09:47 PMApparently the hill I have decided to die on is refusing to convert the documents that lay out my expectations for our class project extremely clearly into some kind of grid format so that students will be forced to acknowledge that they do actually have "a rubric" for what I expect.
Who is asking for this? Admin or students?
Students. Lots of whining about how they couldn't possibly know how to write a good paper if there's no rubric. This is despite LOTS of communication via many tracks that all the expectations for the project can be found in the posted/linked/attached document helpfully labeled "project expectations". I was venting to a colleague who pointed out that I could easily convert that document into something students would recognize as a rubric. But as noted I have, for the moment, decided this is my hill.
Rename it project rubrics and then you can tell the students that you have one. There is nothing in the definition of rubric that says it has to be a chart.
Nope, this is still my hill. I'm just telling them that all the information they need about my expectations for a good project is in the document called "project expectations"
I'm now dealing with the 4th plagiarism case in one of my summer, short-term graduate courses. I thought I was done with this crap as the major research assignment was already submitted. Latest plagiarism case is on a small, creative assignment that required a brief written explanation with one source (textbook permitted!). Plagiarist responded to my request for a meeting by telling me that they are happy to re-do the assignment "if I would like." What I would like is for you not to plagiarize. I am soooooo over this. I have revamped this course when I took it over to make it very applied. But next year, I'm tempted to revert to a closed-book, in-class final as the grade for the course; pass it or don't.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 13, 2023, 07:40:23 AMI'm now dealing with the 4th plagiarism case in one of my summer, short-term graduate courses. I thought I was done with this crap as the major research assignment was already submitted. Latest plagiarism case is on a small, creative assignment that required a brief written explanation with one source (textbook permitted!). Plagiarist responded to my request for a meeting by telling me that they are happy to re-do the assignment "if I would like." What I would like is for you not to plagiarize. I am soooooo over this. I have revamped this course when I took it over to make it very applied. But next year, I'm tempted to revert to a closed-book, in-class final as the grade for the course; pass it or don't.
^^ This. A thousand times this. ^^
Here comes a saga of despair...
All the way back in March when the term started, clueless student contacts me via our LMS message system the day following our first day "I thought class was on Thursday only, so I didn't make it. Did we do anything today?"
So we're already off to a good start. He shows up on Thursday and both days the following week, so I'm thinking we're over this initial hiccup. And then... he disappears for another week and a half. On the day he gets back he lets me know that he was visiting family and that he'll be returning to his home state at some point later this term for knee surgery, and that he'll likely miss a lot of class. I say, "you've already missed a lot of class, the withdrawal deadline is coming up. You should use it". He says "School is important to me. I'm not sure yet when the surgery will happen, but if I have to miss class I'll make sure I do my work." I say "You've already missed a lot of class and you have not made up your work. You are going to need to change your strategy to demonstrate that school is important to you".
Now we're at midterms and I get to fill out the student athlete referral forms. He is likely contacted by his coach at this point because I get an LMS message from my good pal asking me what he needs to do to get back on track. I remind him that we've already talked about coming to class and doing your work.
Cue another week of no shows. I assume he has decided to withdraw, but he's still on the class list when I check. And here comes another contact "I'm getting ready to go get my surgery so I'm going to be missing class. What should I do to make up my work". I write back "You already have a significant backlog of work and you are just getting the surgery. I do not see this being a term in which you can succeed. The withdrawal deadline is this week. I strongly suggest you withdraw and retake the class during a term in which you are better prepared to attend and complete your work to succeed"
He does not.
While I do not see him in person again, we continue to exchange messages through the LMS in which he lets me know he is working really hard to stay caught up and really appreciates me. I remind him that he has not submitted any of the really hard work he has done and that student affairs has an option for medical withdrawal, now that he missed the regular withdrawal deadline he should look into that. He reminds me he's a really serious student to whom school is important.
Last week of the term. I remind all students with missing work that the deadline approacheth and make some recommendations on what they should prioritize to complete. I hear back from my most dedicated student (guess who) that he is on it! All that work will be turned in today.
It is not.
I complete grading late work and final projects and update our LMS. But wait, what's this? It's a message from a student! "Hello professor, I am trying to submit my work, but LMS won't accept it. Can you give me your email address (which is on the home page of our LMS and on the syllabus) so I can get that to you?"
I unleash hell. It feels good, especially since I have so many head banging splinters at this point that I look like a hedgehog.
Dang. That's a student who is learning the hard way about "play stupid games, win stupid prizes "
I got to reply to Financial Aid today.
They asked "What was [Stu's] last day of attendance for Sp 23?"
"Never"
I am pleased.
Quote from: FishProf on June 13, 2023, 02:37:03 PMI got to reply to Financial Aid today.
They asked "What was [Stu's] last day of attendance for Sp 23?"
"Never"
Alternate response:
"As it says in Scripture, the first shall be last. Stu must be very religious."
I'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.
- I'm not a cheater
- I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
- I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
- If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
- Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
- I've never been accused of this before
Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?
Quote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.
- I'm not a cheater
- I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
- I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
- If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
- Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
- I've never been accused of this before
Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?
I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.
Quote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AMQuote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.
- I'm not a cheater
- I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
- I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
- If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
- Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
- I've never been accused of this before
Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?
I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.
Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out. It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.
Quote from: apl68 on June 14, 2023, 12:56:42 PMQuote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AMQuote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.
- I'm not a cheater
- I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
- I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
- If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
- Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
- I've never been accused of this before
Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?
I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.
Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out. It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.
Or maybe, like me, the older I get, the more I ache after struggling not to throttle the living snot out of the lyin' little liars.
Ahem.
Quote from: AmLitHist on June 14, 2023, 01:54:57 PMQuote from: apl68 on June 14, 2023, 12:56:42 PMQuote from: arcturus on June 14, 2023, 11:41:45 AMQuote from: OneMoreYear on June 14, 2023, 10:30:04 AMI'm pretty sure I got plagiarism bingo in my meeting with my latest plagiarist.
- I'm not a cheater
- I've never seen those websites that Turn It In says I plagiarized from
- I don't know how it could be that my assignment has the same words as that website
- If I plagiarized, it was unintentional
- Is there any way I can re-do the assignment for credit?
- I've never been accused of this before
Why is it that after these meetings I feel so drained when I'm not the one who screwed up?
I am sorry that you had to experience this. I also feel drained by these meetings. I think it is due to the cognitive dissonance between what the student is saying and what we know is true. As academics, we value truth and rational argument. To be gas-lighted by students is antithetical to our very being.
Plus, I'm sure that most academics would like to help their students out. It's stressful to be in the position of wanting to help somebody who is trying that diligently to self-sabotage.
Or maybe, like me, the older I get, the more I ache after struggling not to throttle the living snot out of the lyin' little liars.
Ahem.
The two feelings aren't always mutually exclusive....
I swear to all that is holy. I have an extremely egregious case of cheating in my online class. Why do they do this? I know the answer, but what a pain in the ass! This student deliberately moves the camera away from stu's face DURING the test. Did you think the system wouldn't flag it? Ugh!!!
I have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
Oh dear. Does the student have a good advisor? What is her career plan?
Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
The saddest thing is the bolded is probably repeating the message she has gotten from important adults in her life, leaving her with all this internalized self-blame and shame. Obviously you can't force her to get evaluated, but I'd keep gently nudging by describing the services the accessibility office can offer, and how the goal isn't to "fix" her brain, but to help her find ways to succeed in achieving her goals.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
Long COVID? Sadly, COVID affects the brain and many people don't realize how severely it has affected their abilities to think or complete tasks.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on June 16, 2023, 11:54:29 AMQuote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
Long COVID? Sadly, COVID affects the brain and many people don't realize how severely it has affected their abilities to think or complete tasks.
That seems quite unlikely based on the description. There are reports of increased anxiety, PTSD, and brain fog. Obviously, those things could cause all kinds of issues with classwork, but they aren't likely to cause someone to forget their middle name, or lose all ability to understand a relatively simple assignment. That would involve severe brain damage and I've seen nothing to suggest that long covid is associated with anything like that.
Banging my head in advance.
A grad student who has been a PITA all session is about to fail one of my summer courses. Student has an advisor who sees themselves as an "advocate" for their students. I fully expect a contentious grade appeal in which I will be accused of being ableist, and I will probably be pressured to pass the student anyway or allow them to re-do all of the work (the student has asked to re-do multiple assignments after receiving their poor grades). I'm NTT and have zilch power in the department. I admit I'm having thoughts of jockeying the grades on the final assignments so the student earns a bare pass just to avoid all of the upcoming hell. I won't, but it sure would be easier.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on June 15, 2023, 02:19:46 PMI swear to all that is holy. I have an extremely egregious case of cheating in my online class. Why do they do this? I know the answer, but what a pain in the ass! This student deliberately moves the camera away from stu's face DURING the test. Did you think the system wouldn't flag it? Ugh!!!
But, wait... there's more, as Ron Popeil used to say. I found at least FOUR more. SMH.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 15, 2023, 07:24:02 PMI have a student who has some kind of learning disability, although she evinces astonishment when I inquire delicately about whether she has accommodations. "Oh no!" she says, "I don't need those! I'm just stupid because I don't think hard enough!" I try to persuade her to look into testing. "No," she says, "there's nothing to do about my brain because it's just stupid!" She looks quite cheerful as she says this.
But there is indeed something very wrong in there. She can't remember things from one moment to the next. She can't remember her middle name. She misunderstands every assignment to a severe degree.
One of the assignments was to pick a passage from the novel we are reading and write about how it describes the personality and motivations of the main character (a woman). This student chose a passage from a different novel, one we are not reading, apparently one chosen at random at the campus bookstore. She hadn't read this entire other novel, but just picked a paragraph from it. When questioned, she argued that it was also about a girl.
She also bombarded me with eight or nine emails expressing panic that she would not pass the class. Then she failed to turn up to the final exam.
I also asked her why her final paper was late. In response she turned in two separate final papers. Both were actually on the required text, but both misunderstood the assignment severely.
I have conferred with other profs. They all agree that something is very wrong here. But it seems utterly useless to try to persuade the student herself that things are not connecting.
Echoing others who said she's been taught to think this way. Sad.
There is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:
As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."
So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."
So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.
(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)
Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.
It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.
This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 19, 2023, 04:11:57 AMThere is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:
As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."
So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."
So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.
(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)
Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.
It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.
This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.
This is really sad. College appears to be a bad fit for Stu who sounds like a special-needs individual. Someone in Stu's middle or high school should have made sure that Stu had the appropriate support to see hu through school and beyond.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 19, 2023, 04:11:57 AMThere is definitely something wrong with my "stupid" student. I wouldn't use the word "stupid," but I might privately use the word "incapable." For instance, the case of the redone assignment:
As I said, the assignment was something like "Choose a paragraph that describes a character in Middlemarch. Comment on how the paragraph adds to our understanding of the character's motivations and values."
So the student chose some random other book and wrote stuff like "Emily is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Emily's puppy is named Spike. Emily likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." And a little more like that. So I said, "Who's Emily? You're supposed to be writing about a character in our novel, Middlemarch. So your analysis should be about Dorothea or Causabon or one of the characters in the novel."
So the student turns in a revised version. It reads: "Dorothea is nice to puppies and that is a good thing. Dorothea's puppy is named Spike. Dorothea likes her puppy. Puppies are good things to have." Etc.
(No, Dorothea does not have a puppy named Spike in Middlemarch.)
Yes, the assignment was verbatim the same, only with the name of a Middlemarch character inserted.
It was also supposed to be 250+ words and it was about 60 words.
This is really the most ________________ (fill in the blank) student I have ever had.
Document, document, document. She's definitely got a learning disability, but you have zero ability to help her if she refuses services and/or accommodations. Have you contacted the disabilities office/staff? They can't tell you if she has a documented disability or accommodations, but they can reconfirm that they know who she is. I'd bet she's just not wanting to feel different. Maybe they can speak with her and explain the academic peril she is courting by refusing help. You really can't do very much to help her if she won't help herself. All you can realistically offer is the same help you'd give any other student. Good Luck.
Ok, but with a student like this, what 'reasonable accommodations' could the Disabities office suggest, that would give her a meaningful chance of passing this (and most other) classes?
I have talked extensively to her advisor, who is aware of the issues and doing all she can to induce the student to go to the Disabilities Office, but the student steadfastly refuses. So we are at a standstill.
How the bleep did she get into this school?
Good question. I'd guess she comes from out of state and pays tuition accordingly.
Dear stu,
It is not "unfair" that there was an extra quiz for today's lecture. We covered the scheduled material, AND it included a discussion of sexual selection, mate choice, and reproductive biology b/c the class was interested and asked really good questions.
Everyone who was in class saw and heard all the information that was on the extra quiz. Totally fair.
You weren't there, of course, so it seems like you are being penalized for your absence.
You are.
But not by me. You are punishing yourself.
Complaining to the Chair before contacting me was unwise.
No love,
Fishprof.
Hmmmm... so as long as she (or more likely her parents) can pay a hefty, likely out of state, tuition bill, she will be accepted irrespective of her clear unqualifications for admission?
Of course, the thought also crossed my mind that she may well have presented a hs transcript that is fraudulent, in the sense that her hs may well have, ahem, well... you get the idea.
Once one of my students was so terrible that I looked up his applications details. I simply could not understand how the university could have accepted him. It turned out that he was from another country — in other words, he paid high, out-of-state tuition. But he had gone to an American school there. And his high school grade point average was a D-. That explained his terrible performance in my class. I can't understand how someone with a D- average would even think to apply to a four-year selective university, so there must have been some informal network that told him that ours was the one who would accept anyone who could pay high fees. I actually confronted our provost about this. The provost said, "So here is a young man who wants to educate himself. And you think we should deny him that chance?" Totally disingenuous and corrupt.
In our new system we can no longer see their application materials, so I can't say whether this is the case with the current student.
Although it looks as if my university is at fault for accepting terrible high-paying students, I'll also note that this is their way of subsidizing in-state students, in the wake of cuts that have decimated state support to a small fraction (less than 10%) of overall costs. The money has to come from somewhere, and this is the solution they chose, which is maybe not as bad as some others.
Quote from: Hegemony on June 20, 2023, 10:38:45 PMOnce one of my students was so terrible that I looked up his applications details. I simply could not understand how the university could have accepted him. It turned out that he was from another country — in other words, he paid high, out-of-state tuition. But he had gone to an American school there. And his high school grade point average was a D-. That explained his terrible performance in my class. I can't understand how someone with a D- average would even think to apply to a four-year selective university, so there must have been some informal network that told him that ours was the one who would accept anyone who could pay high fees. I actually confronted our provost about this. The provost said, "So here is a young man who wants to educate himself. And you think we should deny him that chance?" Totally disingenuous and corrupt.
There are both conservative and liberal arguments for this attitude. Both are bad, because they essentially set people up for failure.
- Conservative reason: Collect as much tuition as possible before they fail. Ka-ching!
- Liberal reason: Give them a chance, because their previous struggles were probably due to things like discrimination, and if they're finally "accepted", they should thrive. And butterflies and unicorns will dance!
I have serial cheaters. They make me want to bang my head against the wall. Online course. Some haven't responded to me. Guess they're just going to continue to get zeroes.
Colleague, it would be helpful if you start with the initial assumption that I am doing my damn job.
Student, I'm sorry you were in the middle of that. It was not about you. It was a colleague's attempt to put me in my place.
Quote from: kaysixteen on June 19, 2023, 08:15:39 PMOk, but with a student like this, what 'reasonable accommodations' could the Disabities office suggest, that would give her a meaningful chance of passing this (and most other) classes?
It depends what the issues are, I suppose and there's really no telling with someone that seems so extreme. It could be anything from substance use to a neurological condition to functional illiteracy to a learning disability to who knows.
Dear student group 1: You know what you should've done with that analysis? Include it in your damned lab report, that's what. I grade what you put in your report, not what you did but didn't tell anyone else.
Dear student group 2: You had three sets of measurements. You needed to analyze all three. Don't make stuff up that somehow you thought only one set needed analyzing. Gee, ya think maybe that tanked your grade?
Quote from: Stockmann on June 24, 2023, 07:14:22 AMDear student group 1: You know what you should've done with that analysis? Include it in your damned lab report, that's what. I grade what you put in your report, not what you did but didn't tell anyone else.
Dear student group 2: You had three sets of measurements. You needed to analyze all three. Don't make stuff up that somehow you thought only one set needed analyzing. Gee, ya think maybe that tanked your grade?
I feel your pain! The belief that only "our" data needs analysis, when data from the entire class was made available - along with explicit instructions to include it b/c Replication is good - seems widespread. At least you (maybe?) didn't get one where brand new information was discussed in the Conclusions section - I hope?
Arg! I'm stuck in the grade appeal loop that will not die.
Student earned a D in my course in the Fall. Appealed the grade in January of 2023. I fill out the paperwork send it off an hear nothing. I assume the appeal was denied.
Apparently the appeal paperwork got "lost". Appeal is resurrected in April. I have a meeting with the Associate Dean of my college and decide the expedient thing (aka least work) is to let student take makeup exam even thought I have a no make up exam clause in my syllabus.
Student is "on vacation" all of May and so can't take the exam. Then she reschedules twice because of car issues and too much work in her summer course (which started while she was on vacation). Finally, some giant grade appeal meeting is scheduled so I tell her she has to take the exam before that.
She takes the exam last Thursday- turned it in after 15 minutes. The grade does not change her final course grade. When I email student about her grade her response is "We can discuss that at the meeting on Monday." GRRR.
What a waste of time.
So today I sit on a zoom portal for over 30 minutes waiting for this meeting to stat that was scheduled without my input. During summer when I'm not paid. Apparently it was cancelled last minute and no one told me. So now it's likely to be rescheduled for I don't know when.
What happens if you just say, no, no more meetings, F, tough, etc.?
Quote from: mythbuster on June 26, 2023, 12:42:36 PMArg! I'm stuck in the grade appeal loop that will not die.
Student earned a D in my course in the Fall. Appealed the grade in January of 2023. I fill out the paperwork send it off an hear nothing. I assume the appeal was denied.
Apparently the appeal paperwork got "lost". Appeal is resurrected in April. I have a meeting with the Associate Dean of my college and decide the expedient thing (aka least work) is to let student take makeup exam even thought I have a no make up exam clause in my syllabus.
Student is "on vacation" all of May and so can't take the exam. Then she reschedules twice because of car issues and too much work in her summer course (which started while she was on vacation). Finally, some giant grade appeal meeting is scheduled so I tell her she has to take the exam before that.
She takes the exam last Thursday- turned it in after 15 minutes. The grade does not change her final course grade. When I email student about her grade her response is "We can discuss that at the meeting on Monday." GRRR.
What a waste of time.
So today I sit on a zoom portal for over 30 minutes waiting for this meeting to stat that was scheduled without my input. During summer when I'm not paid. Apparently it was cancelled last minute and no one told me. So now it's likely to be rescheduled for I don't know when.
Your admincritters are truly spineless. Couldn't you say that you aren't available until the beginning of the semester? How about an out-of-office-until-date X so that you aren't forced to respond to emails from the higher-ups? Do you have a union? I'm sure you've thought things through, so all I can say is that I am really sorry that you and possibly other faculty have to put up with these situations.
I got one of my favorite recurring emails today.
"Dear Fishprof,
You are receiving this E-mail because the course "Prehistoric Baskets (BW119_BL_SU1_2023)" is part of the online DGCE course evaluation process for 23/SU1. This course is currently reporting a low response rate of 25% (Total number of participants: 4).
Please communicate the importance of the feedback with your students and advise them to participate in the current evaluation process in order to help improve teaching excellence and the success of our academic programs.
All student responses are completely CONFIDENTIAL (we can see who completed the online evaluation, but we cannot view the actual responses for each student)."
Nope. I don't think I will.
Quote from: Thursday's_Child on June 24, 2023, 09:09:55 AMQuote from: Stockmann on June 24, 2023, 07:14:22 AMDear student group 1: You know what you should've done with that analysis? Include it in your damned lab report, that's what. I grade what you put in your report, not what you did but didn't tell anyone else.
Dear student group 2: You had three sets of measurements. You needed to analyze all three. Don't make stuff up that somehow you thought only one set needed analyzing. Gee, ya think maybe that tanked your grade?
I feel your pain! The belief that only "our" data needs analysis, when data from the entire class was made available - along with explicit instructions to include it b/c Replication is good - seems widespread. At least you (maybe?) didn't get one where brand new information was discussed in the Conclusions section - I hope?
It was kind of worse - the three data sets were for different types of experiments, requiring different analyses, not replication. The only set they analyzed was (surprise!) the one with the simplest behavior and they didn't discuss much about it. Also, they had the chance to submit the report early for detailed feedback, with the chance to re-submit and only be graded on the second version - but horse, water, drink....
It's unusual to fail this course, even more unusual to fail other than by ghosting half way through, but one of the students in this group actually did - got an outright zero on another rotation with another prof.
Quote from: FishProf on June 27, 2023, 06:47:27 AMadvise them to participate in the current evaluation process in order to help improve teaching excellence and the success of our academic programs.
Hilarious.
Quote from: FishProf on June 27, 2023, 06:47:27 AMI got one of my favorite recurring emails today.
"Dear Fishprof,
You are receiving this E-mail because the course "Prehistoric Baskets (BW119_BL_SU1_2023)" is part of the online DGCE course evaluation process for 23/SU1. This course is currently reporting a low response rate of 25% (Total number of participants: 4).
Please communicate the importance of the feedback with your students and advise them to participate in the current evaluation process in order to help improve teaching excellence and the success of our academic programs.
All student responses are completely CONFIDENTIAL (we can see who completed the online evaluation, but we cannot view the actual responses for each student)."
Nope. I don't think I will.
Yeah, I get those all the time too. If you wanted to improve your response rate you could.
1. Do what some schools I've taught at do and have a process where evals are required to be done in class and taken over by a student. That was nice because I only had to teach half a class that day.
2. Require students to complete an eval to see their grades.
3. Don't require it, but have some sort of small incentive for students like a gift card
Why is it supposed to be our job to increase participation in evals?
For day and in-person classes, we do in-person evals exactly as Caracal suggests. For online, evening, and summer courses, it is an online eval.
I rarely get more that 15-20% response rate, and I care even less.
I made the mistake of agreeing to teach online this summer. Never again.
One student with 'limited' computer access also has limited reading comprehension abilities (confused the due date of an assignment that was labeled on the syllabus, on the LMS and discussed in class).
Another student has trouble with their speakers and microphone, thus apparently can't hear or participate in class.
Finally, a student didn't realize the class was synchronous and expects me to basically teach them the class separately because they have to work.
Bang, bang, bang.
Stu #1 "Read the syllabus"
Stu #2 "Check out a new computer from [campus resource]"
Stu #3 "You should drop"
How many students are in the class?
Never teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Yeah, I can't say I enjoy it, but it works much better.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Synchronous online teaching is like a movie made by recording live theatre. It has neither the immediacy of the live performance, nor the polish of the movie which comes from more freedom around sets, costumes, editing, etc.
Just. Say. No.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 07, 2023, 05:38:27 AMQuote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Synchronous online teaching is like a movie made by recording live theatre. It has neither the immediacy of the live performance, nor the polish of the movie which comes from more freedom around sets, costumes, editing, etc.
Just. Say. No.
Can I steal this metaphor? Think I'll be needing to use it in the not-so-distant future.
I'd be willing to offer a *small* online lab if I can have $$ to send a "lab kit" to each student, TAs for grading, and several months to build the course. And it would be asynchronous, but not self-paced.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
I second this!
Quote from: Larimar on July 07, 2023, 10:08:11 AMQuote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
I second this!
How do you have student interaction with asynch online? Just discussion boards?
Quote from: ciao_yall on July 07, 2023, 10:11:02 AMQuote from: Larimar on July 07, 2023, 10:08:11 AMQuote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
I second this!
How do you have student interaction with asynch online? Just discussion boards?
In the asynchronous classes I've had, that's mostly been the case. We used some collaboration features in Blackboard to do group work and critiques of each others' work.
Quote from: the_geneticist on July 07, 2023, 08:06:17 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on July 07, 2023, 05:38:27 AMQuote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Synchronous online teaching is like a movie made by recording live theatre. It has neither the immediacy of the live performance, nor the polish of the movie which comes from more freedom around sets, costumes, editing, etc.
Just. Say. No.
Can I steal this metaphor? Think I'll be needing to use it in the not-so-distant future.
I'd be willing to offer a *small* online lab if I can have $$ to send a "lab kit" to each student, TAs for grading, and several months to build the course. And it would be asynchronous, but not self-paced.
During COVID, I found a vendor who custom created kits for my course for about $100 each which the students purchased and then kept after the course. That worked pretty well. (Since there was no textbook for the course, that cost wasn't out of line with what they'd spend if there was a required text.)
I need a quick reality check: Is anyone else receiving online student comments about students not having time to check D2L email . . . for their online courses?
I've tried apps like Remind and GroupMe, but students would not respect time limitations (as in they would text at 3:00 in the morning multiple times expecting an immediate reply).
I know email is kind of old school, but WTF?
Quote from: fishbrains on July 09, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI need a quick reality check: Is anyone else receiving online student comments about students not having time to check D2L email . . . for their online courses?
I've tried apps like Remind and GroupMe, but students would not respect time limitations (as in they would text at 3:00 in the morning multiple times expecting an immediate reply).
I know email is kind of old school, but WTF?
It's not just you. I'm really getting tired of teaching online. A student emailed me because stu forgot to take the past two quizzes. I post reminders, they have an online calendar and it's in the syllabus. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I also have students who don't know how to use their email...
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 09, 2023, 04:31:11 PMQuote from: fishbrains on July 09, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI need a quick reality check: Is anyone else receiving online student comments about students not having time to check D2L email . . . for their online courses?
I've tried apps like Remind and GroupMe, but students would not respect time limitations (as in they would text at 3:00 in the morning multiple times expecting an immediate reply).
I know email is kind of old school, but WTF?
It's not just you. I'm really getting tired of teaching online. A student emailed me because stu forgot to take the past two quizzes. I post reminders, they have an online calendar and it's in the syllabus. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I also have students who don't know how to use their email...
It's a hole with no bottom. The more measures you take to save them from themselves, the more they're going to expect to be rescued.
It's like global thermonuclear war (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNZnfKYnU); the only winning move is not to play.
In this post-covid era, are schools/ school adminsicritters now essentially expecting profs to accept such demands?
Quote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2023, 07:29:08 PMIn this post-covid era, are schools/ school adminsicritters now essentially expecting profs to accept such demands?
Yes. Because, at least at my place, students have absolutely no problem texting/emailing the president/VP/dean/chair or all of the above at the same time to complain about their lack of a true Burger King experience. And none of those people could give a rosy, red crap. It's the end times.
Quote from: Antiphon1 on July 10, 2023, 08:49:42 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2023, 07:29:08 PMIn this post-covid era, are schools/ school adminsicritters now essentially expecting profs to accept such demands?
Yes. Because, at least at my place, students have absolutely no problem texting/emailing the president/VP/dean/chair or all of the above at the same time to complain about their lack of a true Burger King experience. And none of those people could give a rosy, red crap. It's the end times.
And the above-mentioned admincritters promptly send off emails to faculty insisting that they cave in to these demands, however unreasonable. I once had an admincritter--not the chair--demand that I comply with a student's mid-semester request that I change the grading policy that was explicitly stated in the syllabus because Stu thought it was so u.n.f.a.i.r! Now we have to make our "horses" drink in addition to leading them to the water all because admincritters tell the students that their professors will "work with them" rather than advising them to read their syllabi, come to class, and complete their assignments.
Quote from: Antiphon1 on July 10, 2023, 08:49:42 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2023, 07:29:08 PMIn this post-covid era, are schools/ school adminsicritters now essentially expecting profs to accept such demands?
Yes. Because, at least at my place, students have absolutely no problem texting/emailing the president/VP/dean/chair or all of the above at the same time to complain about their lack of a true Burger King experience. And none of those people could give a rosy, red crap. It's the end times.
I actually had this happen last semester. Stu finally admits to cheating and emails the University President asking for mercy. Thankfully, the Pres declined stu's request. Really egregious...
I am working with a "new to me" lab TA.
They.
Are.
So.
Slow.
At.
Everything.
The training/prep meetings are typically <2 hours because TAs are typically much faster than undergraduate students at following protocols. Not this one. And grad stu didn't even do it correctly. We are going to have a chat about "this is why you can't be on your phone during this meeting".
Freshpeeps, I know you are eager to enroll, but there is a procedure to follow to transfer in your AP etc. scores and evaluate if course you took elsewhere can count for the the prerequisite you are asking me to wave. I know you got pre-enrollment period emails explaining those procedures, which you could have completed before registration opened. No, I'm not going to take your word for it and over-ride the requirement for you in the system. No, telling me how you've been waiting your whole life to learn this topic won't sway me. Follow the procedure, then the system will let you enroll. This class has a super high cap that's never reached anyway.
And the above-mentioned admincritters promptly send off emails to faculty insisting that they cave in to these demands, however unreasonable. I once had an admincritter--not the chair--demand that I comply with a student's mid-semester request that I change the grading policy that was explicitly stated in the syllabus because Stu thought it was so u.n.f.a.i.r! Now we have to make our "horses" drink in addition to leading them to the water all because admincritters tell the students that their professors will "work with them" rather than advising them to read their syllabi, come to class, and complete their assignments.
[/quote]
And once a faculty member does "work with the student" in a one-off arrangement, the door is open for complaints of bias if every other student doesn't get the same deal.
Quote from: Langue_doc on July 11, 2023, 05:44:30 AMQuote from: Antiphon1 on July 10, 2023, 08:49:42 PMQuote from: kaysixteen on July 10, 2023, 07:29:08 PMIn this post-covid era, are schools/ school adminsicritters now essentially expecting profs to accept such demands?
Yes. Because, at least at my place, students have absolutely no problem texting/emailing the president/VP/dean/chair or all of the above at the same time to complain about their lack of a true Burger King experience. And none of those people could give a rosy, red crap. It's the end times.
And the above-mentioned admincritters promptly send off emails to faculty insisting that they cave in to these demands, however unreasonable. I once had an admincritter--not the chair--demand that I comply with a student's mid-semester request that I change the grading policy that was explicitly stated in the syllabus because Stu thought it was so u.n.f.a.i.r! Now we have to make our "horses" drink in addition to leading them to the water all because admincritters tell the students that their professors will "work with them" rather than advising them to read their syllabi, come to class, and complete their assignments.
And once a faculty member does "work with a student" the door is open for every other student to initiate a bias complaint with HR if the same deal is not offered to everyone in a class.
And "new to me" TA and I also need to talk about the fact that they are making extra work for themselves & the students.
Yes, you should take attendance. No, you should not use time in class to create an "attendance assignment" for them to complete. WHY?!?
Yes, you need to grade their worksheets. You should use the answer key. It's OK to give full points for an answer that is "good enough" when other students gave answers that were better. Do not make up reasons to take off points!
Yes, you should give a brief overview of where to find reagents/equipment/safely dispose of things. No, do NOT "go through the protocol with them". They are expected to read it before class. You reading it to them will make them LESS prepared next time since they won't bother to read in advance. Trust me on this one. Or not. Just don't do it!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 09, 2023, 04:31:11 PMQuote from: fishbrains on July 09, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI need a quick reality check: Is anyone else receiving online student comments about students not having time to check D2L email . . . for their online courses?
I've tried apps like Remind and GroupMe, but students would not respect time limitations (as in they would text at 3:00 in the morning multiple times expecting an immediate reply).
I know email is kind of old school, but WTF?
It's not just you. I'm really getting tired of teaching online. A student emailed me because stu forgot to take the past two quizzes. I post reminders, they have an online calendar and it's in the syllabus. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I also have students who don't know how to use their email...
Hmm, I can't say I really end up having to deal with any fallout from this stuff. Stuff like reading quizzes are always pretty low stakes in my classes, and I drop a couple of them. When students ask if they can make them up, I just tell them that. If there's really a good reason, I'll make an exception but it comes up pretty rarely. I get the occasional student making unreasonable or ridiculous requests, but they aren't the ones who ever complain to anyone.
Quote from: Caracal on July 13, 2023, 05:09:31 AMHmm, I can't say I really end up having to deal with any fallout from this stuff. Stuff like reading quizzes are always pretty low stakes in my classes, and I drop a couple of them. When students ask if they can make them up, I just tell them that. If there's really a good reason, I'll make an exception but it comes up pretty rarely. I get the occasional student making unreasonable or ridiculous requests, but they aren't the ones who ever complain to anyone.
I do the same thing,, dropping x number of low-stakes quiz items. I find a few students will blow off assignments up to (or exceeding) x, and THEN want a break because [EVENT] really justifies getting a break.
OK Kiddo, you can use your freebie for [EVENT], but you'll have to eat the zero on the other trivial misses.
Some of my students can't fathom dropping their lowest grade
ALWAYS helps them. I've had some say "but I don't want to drop a B on a quiz, that's a good grade!"
Quote from: FishProf on July 13, 2023, 07:30:30 AMQuote from: Caracal on July 13, 2023, 05:09:31 AMHmm, I can't say I really end up having to deal with any fallout from this stuff. Stuff like reading quizzes are always pretty low stakes in my classes, and I drop a couple of them. When students ask if they can make them up, I just tell them that. If there's really a good reason, I'll make an exception but it comes up pretty rarely. I get the occasional student making unreasonable or ridiculous requests, but they aren't the ones who ever complain to anyone.
I do the same thing,, dropping x number of low-stakes quiz items. I find a few students will blow off assignments up to (or exceeding) x, and THEN want a break because [EVENT] really justifies getting a break.
OK Kiddo, you can use your freebie for [EVENT], but you'll have to eat the zero on the other trivial misses.
Some of my students can't fathom dropping their lowest grade ALWAYS helps them. I've had some say "but I don't want to drop a B on a quiz, that's a good grade!"
Oh god, I had a student who complained that their 100 on a quiz was being dropped. They just couldn't understand how this worked.
Quote from: Caracal on July 14, 2023, 05:14:17 AMQuote from: FishProf on July 13, 2023, 07:30:30 AMSome of my students can't fathom dropping their lowest grade ALWAYS helps them. I've had some say "but I don't want to drop a B on a quiz, that's a good grade!"
Oh god, I had a student who complained that their 100 on a quiz was being dropped. They just couldn't understand how this worked.
Then there's the ones who don't understand that
not doing a quiz lowers their average on the quizzes.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2023, 05:41:57 AMThen there's the ones who don't understand that not doing a quiz lowers their average on the quizzes.
A lot of students seem to think that if they don't do something it can't be held against them or affect their grade, that no grade equals a zero. It's part of why I put a zero in the gradebook when students don't hand something in on time, while telling them that they can hand it in late (with a penalty). That zero seems to shock some of them.
I received three emails between 11pm last night and 5am this morning. Two people waited to the last minute to take a test and missed it. One person has been harassing me for the past two weeks because I caught stu cheating. I'm just tired of dealing with these students. Maybe online really isn't for me. I feel like I'm working customer service again and that really sucked.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 15, 2023, 01:23:21 PMI received three emails between 11pm last night and 5am this morning. Two people waited to the last minute to take a test and missed it. One person has been harassing me for the past two weeks because I caught stu cheating. I'm just tired of dealing with these students. Maybe online really isn't for me. I feel like I'm working customer service again and that really sucked.
Uggers. I had that cheater in one of my classes in the Spring. What a pain. I finally had to tell him to either challenge the plagiarism charge or leave me alone about it--that I refuse to discuss it anymore with him. Probably did not get a good eval there.
I still like teaching online, but it gets pretty stupid sometimes.
Quote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 07, 2023, 05:38:27 AMQuote from: Hegemony on July 06, 2023, 04:54:24 PMNever teach synchronous online. Only teach asynchronous.
Synchronous online teaching is like a movie made by recording live theatre. It has neither the immediacy of the live performance, nor the polish of the movie which comes from more freedom around sets, costumes, editing, etc.
Just. Say. No.
That description applies if you're lecturing for most of the class. If you're using class time for group problem solving and discussion, the synchronous sessions allow you to do things you can't do asynchronously. That's why I went to a fully flipped classroom model (with synchronous class sessions) when we were sent home for COVID.
I might not ever teach online again, but I'm still using the flipped model in some of my in-person classes.
Got my first, 'Can I make up 75% of the coursework that I didn't do when I was supposed to do it?' This is the 1st email I got from this student and the last week of class for the summer. Oh well. Guess this student is screwed.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 21, 2023, 09:10:48 AMGot my first, 'Can I make up 75% of the coursework that I didn't do when I was supposed to do it?' This is the 1st email I got from this student and the last week of class for the summer. Oh well. Guess this student is screwed.
Got the same email, times 3, yesterday (from the same student). I got sharper with each iteration of "NO, you can't" with each response, and dropped the dept. chair's name and email address in the last one. Let her argue with him for awhile.
Quote from: AmLitHist on July 21, 2023, 11:23:52 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 21, 2023, 09:10:48 AMGot my first, 'Can I make up 75% of the coursework that I didn't do when I was supposed to do it?' This is the 1st email I got from this student and the last week of class for the summer. Oh well. Guess this student is screwed.
Got the same email, times 3, yesterday (from the same student). I got sharper with each iteration of "NO, you can't" with each response, and dropped the dept. chair's name and email address in the last one. Let her argue with him for awhile.
I had one do no homework. I don't take it late. He was failing.
He spent an entire weekend doing an entire semester's worth of homework, but I wouldn't reopen the LMS for him to upload it. Anyway, he tried to get around it by sending it through the messages section of the LMS.
I told him to retake the class next semester. And hey, all the homework was already done so he was ahead!
So, he signed up again. Meanwhile, we changed LMS systems so all the previous work was not (easily) accessible. He came to me asking if I had last semester's uploads, because he had lost is hard drive and all his homework!
Nope. Just gotta do the homework on time, buddy.
He dropped.
Have these students had excuses for not doing most of the work for most of the semester, or do they just seem to have woken up late to the fact that passing the class involved actually doing the work?
Quote from: apl68 on July 21, 2023, 01:10:36 PMHave these students had excuses for not doing most of the work for most of the semester, or do they just seem to have woken up late to the fact that passing the class involved actually doing the work?
I got some vague excuses about things 'coming up' in a family way, which may or may not be true, but I can't just let someone do an entire course in a weekend. Talk to the dean.
I'm getting the "can I do the [basketweaving lab] another day/another week/entirely online" emails.
No.
I do not care if you are "willing to do the lab when you return from [thing]".
Go to your registered lab section or take the 0. Those are the choices.
If I give you an extension until the 15th, then it shouldn't be surprising that you can't complete the quiz late at night on the 16th.
If you're grubbing for a C+, maybe make sure that the grade you have isn't already a C+. FFS.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on August 21, 2023, 03:03:59 PMIf you're grubbing for a C+, maybe make sure that the grade you have isn't already a C+. FFS.
At least that's an easy response...
I teach a Gen Ed, large enrollment, asynchronous online course. The first discussion posts this semester were encouraging. Many students acknowledged that they would have to be more responsible in an online course, since there are no physical reminders that assignments are due, etc (similar language is in my course syllabus, so it appears that many students read the syllabus!). Nonetheless, the tally is not so positive following the first "major" assignment. 15% of the students did not submit any work. 10% did not follow instructions. Thus, 3 days into the semester, 25% of the students in my class are already exhibiting behaviors that will likely lead them to a failing grade in this class. Aside from the information in the syllabus, class-wide announcements, etc I do not know how to best communicate to these students that their course grade depends on them learning the material, which requires engaging in the course work.
Quote from: arcturus on August 24, 2023, 06:46:36 AMI teach a Gen Ed, large enrollment, asynchronous online course. The first discussion posts this semester were encouraging. Many students acknowledged that they would have to be more responsible in an online course, since there are no physical reminders that assignments are due, etc (similar language is in my course syllabus, so it appears that many students read the syllabus!). Nonetheless, the tally is not so positive following the first "major" assignment. 15% of the students did not submit any work. 10% did not follow instructions. Thus, 3 days into the semester, 25% of the students in my class are already exhibiting behaviors that will likely lead them to a failing grade in this class. Aside from the information in the syllabus, class-wide announcements, etc I do not know how to best communicate to these students that their course grade depends on them learning the material, which requires engaging in the course work.
Well, the short answer is that "you can't care more than they do". Sounds like you've built in scaffolding for how to succeed. Does the grade book have the feature that you can message students who missed a deadline? Are the assignments in the electronic calendar? If yes, then all you can do is record what they have earned. Online, asynchronous classes are HARD for students that don't have well-developed self-regulation skills.
Early on in a plagiarism conversation:
P: So, you cited Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions [note: not something we read in class]. Can you tell me what it's about? What's his main claim?
S: It's about scientific revolutions, and how they're structured.
Also, apparently Foucault's Archaeology of Knowledge and de Man's Allegories of Reading [note: we didn't read these either] are about fossils and palaeontology.
It's just... I'm not stupid. I might even have read some of these. At least try to get away with it.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on August 24, 2023, 09:46:13 AMEarly on in a plagiarism conversation:
P: So, you cited Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions [note: not something we read in class]. Can you tell me what it's about? What's his main claim?
S: It's about scientific revolutions, and how they're structured.
Also, apparently Foucault's Archaeology of Knowledge and de Man's Allegories of Reading [note: we didn't read these either] are about fossils and palaeontology.
It's just... I'm not stupid. I might even have read some of these. At least try to get away with it.
LOL! I did read (a lot of) Foucault and deMan in grad school, but at the moment, I'd be hard pressed to say anything much more intelligent than your student did.
[I should be embarrassed to admit my lack of understanding of The Great Minds. Alas, in my defense, 20+ years of reading crappy Comp I and II papers have destroyed that part of my brain, which admittedly wasn't all that great to begin with. Be gentle: we New Historicists need love, too.]
Students! This specific class is in-person. The specs for this course (modality, time, etc.), were published 6 months ago. Yes, I do in-fact know how to hyflex a course, but just because I am capable does not mean I am willing. No, I don't care what your other instructors are doing; they can make whatever decisions they think are best for their courses. If you want to take this required course this semester, you will take it in-person.
Quote from: AmLitHist on August 24, 2023, 02:33:00 PMAlas, in my defense, 20+ years of reading crappy Comp I and II papers have destroyed that part of my brain,
I think this is a real thing! Someone in psych should take a stab at a study.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on August 24, 2023, 03:45:38 PMQuote from: AmLitHist on August 24, 2023, 02:33:00 PMAlas, in my defense, 20+ years of reading crappy Comp I and II papers have destroyed that part of my brain,
I think this is a real thing! Someone in psych should take a stab at a study.
I'm available, but I'm afraid that the the sort of massive modularity that would result in having a "Foucault area" is not consistent with current neuroscience evidence.
Quote from: Puget on August 24, 2023, 06:23:56 PMQuote from: Parasaurolophus on August 24, 2023, 03:45:38 PMQuote from: AmLitHist on August 24, 2023, 02:33:00 PMAlas, in my defense, 20+ years of reading crappy Comp I and II papers have destroyed that part of my brain,
I think this is a real thing! Someone in psych should take a stab at a study.
I'm available, but I'm afraid that the the sort of massive modularity that would result in having a "Foucault area" is not consistent with current neuroscience evidence.
That's because the "Foucault area" causes socially constructed madness (sometimes brought on by reading too much Foucault), whereas current neuroscience studies biological mental illness.
Honestly, I remember enough Foucault from grad school to know that
The Archaeology of Knowledge probably doesn't have anything to do with fossils, but that's about it.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 24, 2023, 09:38:32 AMWell, the short answer is that "you can't care more than they do". Sounds like you've built in scaffolding for how to succeed. Does the grade book have the feature that you can message students who missed a deadline? Are the assignments in the electronic calendar? If yes, then all you can do is record what they have earned. Online, asynchronous classes are HARD for students that don't have well-developed self-regulation skills.
This works well, unless you're teaching somewhere that blames the non-tenure-track lecturer/professor when the students fail, even if they fail for reasons not under the instructor's control. Like where I work. Since I won't compromise my grading principles to make students happy, I'm hoping to retire before I get fired (it might be close).
Quote from: fosca on August 25, 2023, 11:11:20 AMQuote from: the_geneticist on August 24, 2023, 09:38:32 AMWell, the short answer is that "you can't care more than they do". Sounds like you've built in scaffolding for how to succeed. Does the grade book have the feature that you can message students who missed a deadline? Are the assignments in the electronic calendar? If yes, then all you can do is record what they have earned. Online, asynchronous classes are HARD for students that don't have well-developed self-regulation skills.
This works well, unless you're teaching somewhere that blames the non-tenure-track lecturer/professor when the students fail, even if they fail for reasons not under the instructor's control. Like where I work. Since I won't compromise my grading principles to make students happy, I'm hoping to retire before I get fired (it might be close).
Can you remove students who have not "attended"? I had that ability at a previous place and it was a way to make the final numbers of "Drop, Withdrawal, Fail" look better since it didn't count against the instructor if you removed the student who signed up & didn't ever show.
Some schools* are OK with a 25-35% failure rate in their intro classes. Maybe ask around about what would be considered a "concerning" level.
Yes, I work at one of those now. I don't like that the reason for the high failure rates are mostly due to folks who think it's their job to "weed out" students & write dreadful exams. I have taught [pottery 101] and I can't pass their exams.
Quote from: fosca on August 25, 2023, 11:11:20 AMQuote from: the_geneticist on August 24, 2023, 09:38:32 AMWell, the short answer is that "you can't care more than they do". Sounds like you've built in scaffolding for how to succeed. Does the grade book have the feature that you can message students who missed a deadline? Are the assignments in the electronic calendar? If yes, then all you can do is record what they have earned. Online, asynchronous classes are HARD for students that don't have well-developed self-regulation skills.
This works well, unless you're teaching somewhere that blames the non-tenure-track lecturer/professor AND FT tenured folks where I am when the students fail, even if they fail for reasons not under the instructor's control. Like where I work. Since I won't compromise my grading principles to make students happy, I'm hoping to retire before I get fired (it might be close).
Right there with you, Fosca. ("Tenure" is an ephemeral thing here: the best thing
ever when they dangle it to try to hire new people and then work us like dogs until we get it; afterwards, it sometimes evaporates into one of those "alternative facts" we've heard about.) I've always said they're going to have to fire me, and I'll fight it tooth and nail, if they want me gone before
I decide to go, but honestly, I don't know how much fight I have left in me these days.
Quote from: Puget on August 24, 2023, 06:23:56 PMQuote from: Parasaurolophus on August 24, 2023, 03:45:38 PMQuote from: AmLitHist on August 24, 2023, 02:33:00 PMAlas, in my defense, 20+ years of reading crappy Comp I and II papers have destroyed that part of my brain,
I think this is a real thing! Someone in psych should take a stab at a study.
I'm available, but I'm afraid that the the sort of massive modularity that would result in having a "Foucault area" is not consistent with current neuroscience evidence.
How about a Foulcauldian fold, then?
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 25, 2023, 11:37:58 AMCan you remove students who have not "attended"? I had that ability at a previous place and it was a way to make the final numbers of "Drop, Withdrawal, Fail" look better since it didn't count against the instructor if you removed the student who signed up & didn't ever show.
Some schools* are OK with a 25-35% failure rate in their intro classes. Maybe ask around about what would be considered a "concerning" level.
Yes, I work at one of those now. I don't like that the reason for the high failure rates are mostly due to folks who think it's their job to "weed out" students & write dreadful exams. I have taught [pottery 101] and I can't pass their exams.
Nope. We've asked to drop students, but the administration doesn't want to discourage tuition--er, students in the slightest.
I've already been on probation for failing too many students who generally fail for not doing the work and/or trying to do it all on the last day (even though the mode in my classes is generally a B, even counting those Fs), so I figure the next step is getting fired. It wasn't a problem when I worked at a community college, but I can't use the same standards at the university I teach at now, as it is considered too harsh.
I can theoretically retire in 3.5 years, if I don't mind living in near-poverty. It might be a close thing.
A place that calls itself a "university" has lower standards than a community college? That's sad.
Quote from: apl68 on August 26, 2023, 06:06:15 AMA place that calls itself a "university" has lower standards than a community college? That's sad.
With the onset of the demographic cliff, more and more non-selective privates will be in this same boat.
Public university. Not the state standard-bearer(s), but still university. The small private schools I taught at in the past fell off this cliff long before, which is why I don't teach for them anymore. So I try to fight the good fight without being fired. We'll see.
Quote from: fosca on August 26, 2023, 07:50:01 PMPublic university. Not the state standard-bearer(s), but still university. The small private schools I taught at in the past fell off this cliff long before, which is why I don't teach for them anymore. So I try to fight the good fight without being fired. We'll see.
Can you change to teaching mid to upper division courses? The students who run to put off all work until the last minute typically don't make it into those.
Quote from: the_geneticist on August 27, 2023, 07:43:22 AMCan you change to teaching mid to upper division courses? The students who run to put off all work until the last minute typically don't make it into those.
Unfortunately no; I was hired specifically to teach the 101-level Gen Ed course for my discipline. I used to like teaching it because I could teach students how college works and how to succeed at the same time (like not to put everything off until the last minute) I taught my subject. I guess I'm still doing that: complain about the course and it will get easier, and whine about the instructor and they'll be removed. Which isn't what college was like in the past, but hey, things change.
It's the first day of classes, and I haven't even taught a class yet, though all syllabi are posted on the LMS. I'm already getting emails stating: I know the class policy is [reasonable class policy approved by my chair] but [can you give me what I want anyway?].
This does not bode well.
Quote from: OneMoreYear on August 28, 2023, 05:50:25 AMIt's the first day of classes, and I haven't even taught a class yet, though all syllabi are posted on the LMS. I'm already getting emails stating: I know the class policy is [reasonable class policy approved by my chair] but [can you give me what I want anyway?].
This does not bode well.
My condolences. At least you have a good chair!
Drop/Add week. Student sees syllabus and emails to say they will be away for their grannies' birthday so will miss the midterm, and can I give them the midterm early. I reply saying I can't guarantee that, and they should consider switching to a different section.
Student is still in the class. Maybe the other sections are full. I applaud the student's early action, but wish they would go elsewhere.
Quote from: downer on August 31, 2023, 05:27:41 AMDrop/Add week. Student sees syllabus and emails to say they will be away for their grannies' birthday so will miss the midterm, and can I give them the midterm early. I reply saying I can't guarantee that, and they should consider switching to a different section.
Student is still in the class. Maybe the other sections are full. I applaud the student's early action, but wish they would go elsewhere.
I told one student who was going to miss the midterm for a sorority sister's wedding to email me a week in advance and we could schedule an alternative exam. I told her that it would be different from the exam the rest of the class will take. Let's see what happens.
I'm glad add/drop is over, but I'm still getting "I know I added after the first five class meetings, but it's not fair that I be quizzed on this material today!" emails.
We are in week 2. I have 1 clear cut plagiarism case (copied from a website) and a combo plagiarism/facilitating misconduct case (one student copied from another student). All are first-year students. Welcome to college!
ETA: Also, 20% of the students did not even attempt the assignment. This does not bode well for the DFW rates for this class...
Quote from: downer on August 31, 2023, 05:27:41 AMDrop/Add week. Student sees syllabus and emails to say they will be away for their grannies' birthday so will miss the midterm, and can I give them the midterm early. I reply saying I can't guarantee that, and they should consider switching to a different section.
Student is still in the class. Maybe the other sections are full. I applaud the student's early action, but wish they would go elsewhere.
I'd rather they ask and ask early rather than just not show up to take the exam. Asking me earlier means I'm more flexible/less grumpy since my calendar isn't full.
Quote from: downer on August 31, 2023, 05:27:41 AMDrop/Add week. Student sees syllabus and emails to say they will be away for their grannies' birthday so will miss the midterm, and can I give them the midterm early. I reply saying I can't guarantee that, and they should consider switching to a different section.
Student is still in the class. Maybe the other sections are full. I applaud the student's early action, but wish they would go elsewhere.
What will you do if a student emails you the day of the midterm and says they woke up feeling really sick? Or that their car broke down on the side of the road on the way to class?
Two students, who never showed up to lab (for 2 weeks), emailed me and seemed rather surprised that they were dropped for non-attendance.
Of course they want to make up the work.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 04, 2023, 09:13:48 AMTwo students, who never showed up to lab (for 2 weeks), emailed me and seemed rather surprised that they were dropped for non-attendance.
Of course they want to make up the work.
Remind them that people in hell want ice water and electric fans. /s
(Sorry, it's already been
that kind of morning.)
Here, I've been wrangling with a guy who missed 3 major assignments last week--essentially, an entire week of an 8-week accelerated class. He says he lives in Peru (the nation, not one of the American cities with that name) and his internet was out all week.
First, that sucks, but it's an online accelerated class--you're clearly required to have reliable internet access. Second and
more interestingly, if you live in Peru, (a) why are you taking an online English class at my not-especially-famous CC just out of the blue (b) in an
accelerated session (c) while your official college record shows your permanent and home addresses (one and the same) as being in a suburb of our city, which is over 3400 miles from Peru?
Inquiring (and aggravated minds) want to know.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 05, 2023, 07:08:53 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on September 04, 2023, 09:13:48 AMTwo students, who never showed up to lab (for 2 weeks), emailed me and seemed rather surprised that they were dropped for non-attendance.
Of course they want to make up the work.
Remind them that people in hell want ice water and electric fans. /s
(Sorry, it's already been that kind of morning.)
Here, I've been wrangling with a guy who missed 3 major assignments last week--essentially, an entire week of an 8-week accelerated class. He says he lives in Peru (the nation, not one of the American cities with that name) and his internet was out all week.
First, that sucks, but it's an online accelerated class--you're clearly required to have reliable internet access. Second and more interestingly, if you live in Peru, (a) why are you taking an online English class at my not-especially-famous CC just out of the blue (b) in an accelerated session (c) while your official college record shows your permanent and home addresses (one and the same) as being in a suburb of our city, which is over 3400 miles from Peru?
Inquiring (and aggravated minds) want to know.
I can think of several logical explanations for your "Peruvian" student, AmLitHist. Most probable is that Stu wanted to travel ("experience the world!") and parents wanted him to go to college ("further your education!"). The compromise they reached is that Stu enrolls in an accelerated 8-weeks course while Stu is traveling, leaving more time for travel while still furthering Stu's education. Not a great choice, particularly if Stu is planning to travel in remote locations...
Quote from: Caracal on September 04, 2023, 07:19:56 AMQuote from: downer on August 31, 2023, 05:27:41 AMDrop/Add week. Student sees syllabus and emails to say they will be away for their grannies' birthday so will miss the midterm, and can I give them the midterm early. I reply saying I can't guarantee that, and they should consider switching to a different section.
Student is still in the class. Maybe the other sections are full. I applaud the student's early action, but wish they would go elsewhere.
What will you do if a student emails you the day of the midterm and says they woke up feeling really sick? Or that their car broke down on the side of the road on the way to class?
We will see if that happens. I may be a hard ass. Could depend on how sympathetic I feel to the class after a few weeks.
Quote from: AmLitHist on September 05, 2023, 07:08:53 AMSecond and more interestingly, if you live in Peru, (a) why are you taking an online English class at my not-especially-famous CC just out of the blue (b) in an accelerated session (c) while your official college record shows your permanent and home addresses (one and the same) as being in a suburb of our city, which is over 3400 miles from Peru?
Inquiring (and aggravated minds) want to know.
I believe I just saw an article headline about the malicious reasons ghost students are taking online courses at American CCs. I didn't read it because it seemed like academic clickbait, but now I think I'll go down that rabbit hole.
Quote from: RatGuy on September 06, 2023, 06:09:17 AMQuote from: AmLitHist on September 05, 2023, 07:08:53 AMSecond and more interestingly, if you live in Peru, (a) why are you taking an online English class at my not-especially-famous CC just out of the blue (b) in an accelerated session (c) while your official college record shows your permanent and home addresses (one and the same) as being in a suburb of our city, which is over 3400 miles from Peru?
Inquiring (and aggravated minds) want to know.
I believe I just saw an article headline about the malicious reasons ghost students are taking online courses at American CCs. I didn't read it because it seemed like academic clickbait, but now I think I'll go down that rabbit hole.
Financial aid fraud has been a big reason for a while.
Some schools also "sell" their open seats through programs like Acadeum to raise enrollments and revenue.
Another day, another round of technology issues. Plural.
Yeah, welcome to the new semester.
Classes start in less than 2 weeks.
Do we have enough TAs? Nope
Am I being asked to increase the number of lab sections? Yes
For the [baskets 101 for baskets majors] that is required for several majors? Nope
For the [baskets are neat 100] class that checks a gen Ed box and no one is required to take? Yes, that one
A Deanlet has seen the waitlist numbers and has taken a "personal interest".
Sorry for the double-post.
I emailed assigned TAs to ask which sections they would prefer so I can set the schedule. Instructions were to number them as #1 being first choice & #12 being last choice.
TA ranked ALL sections as #12.
I'm going to take it as "I have no preference, any days or times is just fine" rather than "I really don't want to teach any of these".
So I had a student request/demand, loudly and repeatedly, for another reader because she didn't like my comment on one of her squirrely sentences. Not on the patterns-of-errors I highlighted in the rest of the essay (the errors that tanked the grade), but for the one sentence.
I finally told her that I valued my colleagues' time too much to involve them regarding one sentence that she was obviously wrong about. Then gave her a pretty hard stare.
I really don't like shutting down a student and haven't had to do it in many years, but jeesh. I think she was expecting me to go fetch my manager.
Fun times.
QuoteI really don't like shutting down a student and haven't had to do it in many years, but jeesh. I think she was expecting me to go fetch my manager.
I've had students sternly informing me that they would be complaining to my "manager". I direct them to the department office.
I had one who whined/complained about everything. Finally I was explaining general accounting and debits and credits, a system invented by the ancient Romans.
WS: "But why did they doooo thatttt.... left and right?"
Me: "Simply to annoy you."
Student who got a 58 on the exam emailed as soon as grades were posted to say there must have been a mistake with the grading or it got switched with someone else because she studied really hard and "is absolutely sure I got at least in the high 80s". I refrained from referencing Dunning-Kruger in my reply.
Dear Stu,
Yes, I did say you could take the quizzes you missed due to Financial Aid Snafu Week.
Yes, you did email to ask me to turn them on.
No, I am NOT going to look up which ones you missed. Look at the schedule of topics and the gradebook and YOU tell ME which ones you need reactivated.
If you can't be bothered to track your own due dates and completion, why the hell would I?
No love
Fishprof
p.s. and telling Disabilities Services that I am not "providing appropriate accommodations" is not winning you any brownie points either. In fact, that is the fast track to minimal compliance.
Quote from: Langue_doc on October 07, 2023, 09:19:50 AMQuoteI really don't like shutting down a student and haven't had to do it in many years, but jeesh. I think she was expecting me to go fetch my manager.
I've had students sternly informing me that they would be complaining to my "manager". I direct them to the department office.
They're presumably just following the sort of behavior they've seen modeled by the adults in their lives.
I am getting emails from students who want to set up a meeting to discuss the tiniest of tiny assignments.
Things like an open note, pre-class quiz based on "did you do the reading before class".
I do not have time for this. Student, you should not be using time for this either. Seriously, it will take you less time to just DO the assignment than it would to ask me about it.
Quote from: apl68 on October 09, 2023, 07:26:44 AMQuote from: Langue_doc on October 07, 2023, 09:19:50 AMQuoteI really don't like shutting down a student and haven't had to do it in many years, but jeesh. I think she was expecting me to go fetch my manager.
I've had students sternly informing me that they would be complaining to my "manager". I direct them to the department office.
They're presumably just following the sort of behavior they've seen modeled by the adults in their lives.
I guess. With the last one of these I had a few years ago, the student asked me how to start the process of filing a complaint against me, and they seem very shocked when I responded with, "Why do you think I would ever help you with something like that?"
Interesting times, and all that jazz.
Please,please, please, students with the C's on the last exam, STOP emailing me with all of your exciting creative Ideas for how I can produce all kinds of extra credit assignments, that are obviously not a part of the syllabus, just for you to get a better score. I do not want to ever open that Pandora's box.
A better use of your time would be to study.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on October 10, 2023, 07:23:59 AMPlease,please, please, students with the C's on the last exam, STOP emailing me with all of your exciting creative Ideas for how I can produce all kinds of extra credit assignments, that are obviously not a part of the syllabus, just for you to get a better score. I do not want to ever open that Pandora's box.
A better use of your time would be to study.
You mean you don't want to give them the opportunity to make a diorama/write a children's story/wash your car and would prefer to just evaluate them based on what's in the syllabus?!
Quote from: bio-nonymous on October 10, 2023, 07:23:59 AMPlease,please, please, students with the C's on the last exam, STOP emailing me with all of your exciting creative Ideas for how I can produce all kinds of extra credit assignments, that are obviously not a part of the syllabus, just for you to get a better score. I do not want to ever open that Pandora's box.
A better use of your time would be to study.
Reminds me of the conversation with my students...
Students: Why don't you allow extra credit?
Me: Because if I did, students would wait until the end and hope that whatever extra credit I offered was easier than the actual work of the class.
Students: (shocked expressions) Oh... yeah...
Me: You think I was never a slacker? Puh-leeze, y'all owe me a dollar for that trick.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on October 10, 2023, 07:23:59 AMPlease,please, please, students with the C's on the last exam, STOP emailing me with all of your exciting creative Ideas for how I can produce all kinds of extra credit assignments, that are obviously not a part of the syllabus, just for you to get a better score. I do not want to ever open that Pandora's box.
A better use of your time would be to study.
Yes, and it's one of those things where all my incentives line up. Why would I want to grade extra assignments?
Quote from: Puget on October 07, 2023, 11:27:48 AMStudent who got a 58 on the exam emailed as soon as grades were posted to say there must have been a mistake with the grading or it got switched with someone else because she studied really hard and "is absolutely sure I got at least in the high 80s". I refrained from referencing Dunning-Kruger in my reply.
I just had almost the exact same scenario. "I studied really hard for this test so I don't think my grade is right, I want to see the test".
I was more than generous on the grading.
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on October 11, 2023, 07:05:11 AMQuote from: Puget on October 07, 2023, 11:27:48 AMStudent who got a 58 on the exam emailed as soon as grades were posted to say there must have been a mistake with the grading or it got switched with someone else because she studied really hard and "is absolutely sure I got at least in the high 80s". I refrained from referencing Dunning-Kruger in my reply.
I just had almost the exact same scenario. "I studied really hard for this test so I don't think my grade is right, I want to see the test".
I was more than generous on the grading.
Student has now dropped the class, before even getting the exam back. Better than continuing to make a fuss about the grade I guess.
I feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
Quote from: paddington_bear on October 12, 2023, 07:08:50 PMI feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
I had a student a few years back who couldn't find my office despite being in the correct building. I pointed out that it was in the middle of the second floor. With a surprised expression, the student said, "There's a second floor??" I guess the stairs weren't a clue...
Quote from: paddington_bear on October 12, 2023, 07:08:50 PMI feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
If we are trying to be kinder, some students just have a hard time with a particular subject. The problem is when they don't have the self awareness to understand that. Some of the most annoying students I've had were ones who actually did seem to be putting a reasonable amount of effort into the class and probably did mostly get good grades, but just seemed to be missing the point of assignments. That would be fine-not everybody needs to be good at everything and plenty of students are perfectly happy to just decide that they they will just put enough effort to get a passing grade and move on with their lives. Others decide they need to figure out how to do better and really put a lot of time into it, which is great, obviously. It's the ones who can't seem to make either of those choices who are annoying. Instead they blame me for denying them the grade they think they deserve
Quote from: sinenomine on October 12, 2023, 07:41:05 PMQuote from: paddington_bear on October 12, 2023, 07:08:50 PMI feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
I had a student a few years back who couldn't find my office despite being in the correct building. I pointed out that it was in the middle of the second floor. With a surprised expression, the student said, "There's a second floor??" I guess the stairs weren't a clue...
My sense of direction is too bad to judge. I frequently walk straight by my classroom in the middle of the semester, go the wrong way in the hall and enter the wrong classroom by mistake.
Quote from: sinenomine on October 12, 2023, 07:41:05 PMQuote from: paddington_bear on October 12, 2023, 07:08:50 PMI feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
I had a student a few years back who couldn't find my office despite being in the correct building. I pointed out that it was in the middle of the second floor. With a surprised expression, the student said, "There's a second floor??" I guess the stairs weren't a clue...
Wow...
I had that issue once with a student. They asked (mid-semester!) if we had a textbook to go with the class. Rather surprised, I mentioned the campus bookstore. The students response was that they went there once and they only sell T-shirts. This is because the textbooks are on the second floor! There is a big staircase in the middle. But the student never asked or wondered then why it was called the "bookstore"? Clueless and passive is a dangerous combination.
Hopefully my information for them helped them find the textbooks for all of their classes.
Quote from: Caracal on October 13, 2023, 04:19:40 AMQuote from: paddington_bear on October 12, 2023, 07:08:50 PMI feel like this might be blasphemous, but some students are just stupid. They don't have learning disabilities. They're not lazy. They're not academically delayed. They're just legitimately stupid.
If we are trying to be kinder, some students just have a hard time with a particular subject. The problem is when they don't have the self awareness to understand that. Some of the most annoying students I've had were ones who actually did seem to be putting a reasonable amount of effort into the class and probably did mostly get good grades, but just seemed to be missing the point of assignments. That would be fine-not everybody needs to be good at everything and plenty of students are perfectly happy to just decide that they they will just put enough effort to get a passing grade and move on with their lives. Others decide they need to figure out how to do better and really put a lot of time into it, which is great, obviously. It's the ones who can't seem to make either of those choices who are annoying. Instead they blame me for denying them the grade they think they deserve
I'd like to be kinder and try to avoid terms like "stupid," but some students do have a lostness about them that goes beyond struggles with a particular academic subject. In my TA days I and a fellow TA in the class were discussing a certain student. I commented that he "didn't seem very aware" about such-and-such. My colleague said "What you just said--I don't think he's very
aware." For whatever reason, some are just like that.
Mythbuster's student who didn't know that the bookstore had a second floor with actual books on it reminds me of the college-age staff member at our library whom I asked to add up and summarize some monthly circulation reports for me. I showed her where on one of the statistics sheets to find the data. No actual math was needed--she just had to plug figures into the calculator. Later that afternoon I found her in a hopeless panic, unable to move forward on the assignment. The sheets I gave her had two sides. She picked up the first sheet wrong-side up and couldn't find the data she needed, and just sat there at her desk in a panic.
It never occurred to her to at least try turning the sheet over to see whether there might be something there. She spent much of the afternoon hopelessly locked up, like a science-fiction robot stumped by a logic problem. This was a student from an intact, reasonably well-off family whom I am told had good grades through high school. It's as if there's something cognitively missing from a disturbing number of our young people. I don't know whether it's due to excessive exposure to smartphones and the like at an early age, helicopter parenting, K-12 pedagogical methods that totally suppress the development of initiative, or what. Whatever the cause, there are so many who just aren't very
aware.
I've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
Quote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
I don't think it's just the
chance to figure things out; they have just assumed that
any answer is googleable. The idea that the answer is not already out there only needing to be looked up would make their heads explode. They don't believe they would ever need to formulate an original solution to anything; the bots will do that.
Wall-E is a documentary.
Quote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2023, 06:38:54 AMQuote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
One thing that has changed over my approximately 4 decades of teaching is that students have gotten much more shameless about asking for
ridiculous accommodations. The person who has skipped all of the lectures and thus has missed the 20% of their grade that was for lecture quizzes shows up in the last week to see if he can make up the quizzes. That amount of chutzpah was much less common even 20 years ago. (It's not
just post-covid, but still fairly recent.)
Quote from: Caracal on October 17, 2023, 06:38:54 AMQuote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
I really must disagree here. No, it's not something we haven't always had to deal with, but I really do believe it has gradually gotten worse in recent decades. I and fellow employers of youth find so much of this. It's a big part of why we hear so many complaints by employers about the newly-graduated products of K-12 of colleges. I try to resist simplistic monocausal explanations--It's all the smartphones! It's all the helicopter parents! It's all the schools' fault!--but I believe we are dealing with a genuine and widespread phenomenon. Something seems to be slowing down young people's cognitive development and maturing process. They tend not to be where people a generation or two ago were at their ages.
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 07:57:56 AMQuote from: Caracal on October 17, 2023, 06:38:54 AMQuote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
I really must disagree here. No, it's not something we haven't always had to deal with, but I really do believe it has gradually gotten worse in recent decades. I and fellow employers of youth find so much of this. It's a big part of why we hear so many complaints by employers about the newly-graduated products of K-12 of colleges. I try to resist simplistic monocausal explanations--It's all the smartphones! It's all the helicopter parents! It's all the schools' fault!--but I believe we are dealing with a genuine and widespread phenomenon. Something seems to be slowing down young people's cognitive development and maturing process. They tend not to be where people a generation or two ago were at their ages.
But the problem is the evidence is all from various older people who think the kids aren't ok, which is what everyone always thinks and has always thought. It's not that everything is always the same-or that technology never makes a difference.
For example, it seems to me that students aren't nearly as good as I am at troubleshooting technology problems. Some of them have something go wrong and just give up or ask me before doing all the things I consider basic-refreshing the page, turning the browser off and turning it back on again, trying a different browser, going to incognito mode, restarting the computer, trying it on my phone to see if I have the same issue. This makes a certain amount of sense, people of my generation grew up with janky technology, so even though I'm not particularly tech savvy, I've acquired a pretty long checklist of stuff I'll try and then if none of that works, I'll probably go see if internet forums have some kind of solution before I go back to somebody and tell them it isn't working. It makes some sense that many of my students don't do this, because they are used to tech that works better and have a hard time with some weird academic database.
But this is just a minor thing, it's not a deficit of character or stunted development. Also maybe I'm wrong. I might just be overestimating the ability of most people my age to troubleshoot.
I've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
I don't think I've ever had as many students not follow instructions as I've had this semester. If the assignment sheet says to write about a text that they've been assigned for their particular due date, they write about a text we read two weeks before their assigned date. If I tell them in an email to share with me their revision as a Word or Google doc, they post it to the LMS. Ugh.
Stu, if you are not registered for [Baskets 101] lab, then you cannot be in the lab classroom! Especially if the section is entirely full.
TA, if stu tries this again, you have to make them leave!
Quote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
I think having grown up with customized apps, reccommendation engines, and
The Algorithm(TM), they just expect to get personalized information and instructions on everything. They can't conceive of everyone getting exactly the same information and having to figure out for themselves what's relevant to them.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 18, 2023, 05:15:56 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
I think having grown up with customized apps, reccommendation engines, and The Algorithm(TM), they just expect to get personalized information and instructions on everything. They can't conceive of everyone getting exactly the same information and having to figure out for themselves what's relevant to them.
To be fair to the students in question, when told that their available times included my office hours they both replied with some version of "my bad".
Two separate headbangers:
1. Dear Stu: I can use the exact same search engine that you use to find the copies of my assignments that are on cheater's websites. I have diligently scrubbed the ones that have *the correct answers*. When you say that you made "random guesses" that are identical to *the incorrect answers* that are still out there on the interwebs, I know that you are lying. Trying to cheat your way through my class is not a good plan. Just read my ratemyprofessors page - I am not only the worst professor in the universe, I will also report you for even the slightest hint of academic misconduct. Trust your fellow students on this.
2. Dear Stu: threatening to drop my class if I do not comply with your request to be given special treatment due to your un-special circumstances is not an effective threat. Please go ahead and drop, if you really think that doing so is in your best interest.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 18, 2023, 05:15:56 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
I think having grown up with customized apps, reccommendation engines, and The Algorithm(TM), they just expect to get personalized information and instructions on everything. They can't conceive of everyone getting exactly the same information and having to figure out for themselves what's relevant to them.
Syllabi have become increasingly less important for students to look at in many classes, including my own. Readings are usually posted in the CMS, so they aren't pulling the thing out, so it isn't that shocking they don't think to go look at it.
Quote from: Caracal on October 18, 2023, 09:02:29 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on October 18, 2023, 05:15:56 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
I think having grown up with customized apps, reccommendation engines, and The Algorithm(TM), they just expect to get personalized information and instructions on everything. They can't conceive of everyone getting exactly the same information and having to figure out for themselves what's relevant to them.
Syllabi have become increasingly less important for students to look at in many classes, including my own. Readings are usually posted in the CMS, so they aren't pulling the thing out, so it isn't that shocking they don't think to go look at it.
Office hours are also prominently displayed at the top of the CMS page.
apl is right, of course, but *why* remains the key question. Obviously the cause is not monocausal, but some of the things mentioned, such as technology changes and *significant*, and largely for the worse, changes in American parenting skills and practices (BTW, I am really interested to know about whether parenting skills and practices have also changed in various other advanced westernized countries?). What does not really seem feasible, however, is to posit there having been some sort of appreciable ontological change in species Homo teenager within the last generation or so.
Quote from: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 07:57:56 AMQuote from: Caracal on October 17, 2023, 06:38:54 AMQuote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
I really must disagree here. No, it's not something we haven't always had to deal with, but I really do believe it has gradually gotten worse in recent decades. I and fellow employers of youth find so much of this. It's a big part of why we hear so many complaints by employers about the newly-graduated products of K-12 of colleges. I try to resist simplistic monocausal explanations--It's all the smartphones! It's all the helicopter parents! It's all the schools' fault!--but I believe we are dealing with a genuine and widespread phenomenon. Something seems to be slowing down young people's cognitive development and maturing process. They tend not to be where people a generation or two ago were at their ages.
I agree, and I don't think it's a huge mystery why. I think we're seeing the downsides of neuroplasticity - past generations shouldered all sorts of adult responsibilities at young ages, and that in itself made them mature faster. Nowadays, in the developed world and among the middle and upper classes in the developing world, this is no longer the case for a wide variety of reasons, from child labor laws to smaller families (meaning older siblings have fewer younger siblings and are therefore less likely to be parentified), to helicopter parenting, to smartphones, to social promotion at schools, responsibility and accountability are much less for young people - and their brains therefore mature more slowly.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 18, 2023, 04:51:08 PMapl is right, of course, but *why* remains the key question. Obviously the cause is not monocausal, but some of the things mentioned, such as technology changes and *significant*, and largely for the worse, changes in American parenting skills and practices (BTW, I am really interested to know about whether parenting skills and practices have also changed in various other advanced westernized countries?). What does not really seem feasible, however, is to posit there having been some sort of appreciable ontological change in species Homo teenager within the last generation or so.
Yes, by all means, let's just rush past the questions of whether this is actually true. Also never mind that it is, quite literally, one of the oldest tropes in recorded history. We know, of course, that it's true. The only thing left to due is to assign our own pet theories to explain why.
Quote from: Caracal on October 19, 2023, 02:39:19 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on October 18, 2023, 04:51:08 PMapl is right, of course, but *why* remains the key question. Obviously the cause is not monocausal, but some of the things mentioned, such as technology changes and *significant*, and largely for the worse, changes in American parenting skills and practices (BTW, I am really interested to know about whether parenting skills and practices have also changed in various other advanced westernized countries?). What does not really seem feasible, however, is to posit there having been some sort of appreciable ontological change in species Homo teenager within the last generation or so.
Yes, by all means, let's just rush past the questions of whether this is actually true. Also never mind that it is, quite literally, one of the oldest tropes in recorded history. We know, of course, that it's true. The only thing left to due is to assign our own pet theories to explain why.
If you look at Jean Twenge's work, you'll see that rates of teenage depression, anxiety, etc. have risen quickly starting about 2012 or so. (She points out that's the generation growing up with the iPhone.) There
are measurable changes within the last generation.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 19, 2023, 05:01:26 AMQuote from: Caracal on October 19, 2023, 02:39:19 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on October 18, 2023, 04:51:08 PMapl is right, of course, but *why* remains the key question. Obviously the cause is not monocausal, but some of the things mentioned, such as technology changes and *significant*, and largely for the worse, changes in American parenting skills and practices (BTW, I am really interested to know about whether parenting skills and practices have also changed in various other advanced westernized countries?). What does not really seem feasible, however, is to posit there having been some sort of appreciable ontological change in species Homo teenager within the last generation or so.
Yes, by all means, let's just rush past the questions of whether this is actually true. Also never mind that it is, quite literally, one of the oldest tropes in recorded history. We know, of course, that it's true. The only thing left to due is to assign our own pet theories to explain why.
If you look at Jean Twenge's work, you'll see that rates of teenage depression, anxiety, etc. have risen quickly starting about 2012 or so. (She points out that's the generation growing up with the iPhone.) There are measurable changes within the last generation.
Hmmmmmm . . . so my theory about Taylor Swift's music is holding strong.
Anyways, my student who was going to "catch up" over fall break unfortunately discovered that the entire state of Florida does not have internet. Not anywhere. Not in their public libraries, not in their hotels, not at any Starbucks, not in the airport, not at any McDonald's . . . absolutely nowhere.
It boggles the mind to contemplate how anyone living in Florida gets anything done.
Nice tan though.
Quote from: Stockmann on October 18, 2023, 07:47:00 PMQuote from: apl68 on October 17, 2023, 07:57:56 AMQuote from: Caracal on October 17, 2023, 06:38:54 AMQuote from: fosca on October 16, 2023, 06:53:52 PMI've run into a lot of students like that: they run into an issue, and if they can't Google the answer or don't have someone around to show them exactly how to do it, they just freeze and don't even try. It definitely seems to have gotten worse with the rise of cell phones in general and smart phones in particular; being used to having answers to everything at their fingertips seems to have robbed many of a chance to figure things out themselves and learn that way.
As always, I'm skeptical. Of course, some students are like this, but I suspect some students have always been like this. We can create these narratives about how it's gotten worse because of smart phones, but professors have been complaining that their students are worse at everything then they used to be because of the decadence of modern life since Socrates.
I really must disagree here. No, it's not something we haven't always had to deal with, but I really do believe it has gradually gotten worse in recent decades. I and fellow employers of youth find so much of this. It's a big part of why we hear so many complaints by employers about the newly-graduated products of K-12 of colleges. I try to resist simplistic monocausal explanations--It's all the smartphones! It's all the helicopter parents! It's all the schools' fault!--but I believe we are dealing with a genuine and widespread phenomenon. Something seems to be slowing down young people's cognitive development and maturing process. They tend not to be where people a generation or two ago were at their ages.
I agree, and I don't think it's a huge mystery why. I think we're seeing the downsides of neuroplasticity - past generations shouldered all sorts of adult responsibilities at young ages, and that in itself made them mature faster. Nowadays, in the developed world and among the middle and upper classes in the developing world, this is no longer the case for a wide variety of reasons, from child labor laws to smaller families (meaning older siblings have fewer younger siblings and are therefore less likely to be parentified), to helicopter parenting, to smartphones, to social promotion at schools, responsibility and accountability are much less for young people - and their brains therefore mature more slowly.
That all seems plausible. The correlations that Jean Twenge and others have identified of course don't prove causation--but man, there are some mighty strong correlations there.
As for the "it was ever thus that age complained about youth" argument--that's true enough, and I know my history well enough to be well aware of that. What seems to be different in recent times is that these past complaints were directed mostly against adolescents in elite society--the few members of society who had much freedom and resources with which to get themselves into serious problems during adolescence. Whereas in modern societies those sorts of freedom and resources have come to be considered the norm.
I recall some years back reading Neil Postman's
The Disappearance of Childhood. I recall thinking then, and still think now, that Postman missed the real story. The real story about what's happened in recent generations hasn't been "the disappearance of childhood." It has been the emergence and rise to cultural dominance of modern mass
adolescence.
Quote from: fishbrains on October 19, 2023, 05:36:56 AMAnyways, my student who was going to "catch up" over fall break unfortunately discovered that the entire state of Florida does not have internet. Not anywhere. Not in their public libraries, not in their hotels, not at any Starbucks, not in the airport, not at any McDonald's . . . absolutely nowhere.
It boggles the mind to contemplate how anyone living in Florida gets anything done.
Nice tan though.
Even in a little rural Arkansas library like ours you can check out a wireless router to take with you on your vacation to Florida to give you internet. If you don't keep running the battery down like one of our patrons recently did.
We don't have internet here?!? Then how am I checking the Fora every day?! I'm so confused now. LOL.
Student emailed me to ask if I would please clear their attempt to submit an assignment because they weren't done writing it out yet. Considering that the instructions explicitly say to type the assignment out in a word processing program and then copy it over the the submission box I'm not sure how someone accidentally submits a partially written submission.
I mean, I know how, but sending me an email like you are just the unfortunate victim of an accident isn't the best look.
I'm getting the "please let me register for your class" emails. We are 1/3 of the way through Fall. No, I will not excuse you from 1/3 of the materials. No, it is not practical/reasonable for you to "get caught up". Take the class next quarter.
Quote from: Puget on October 18, 2023, 03:10:51 PMQuote from: Caracal on October 18, 2023, 09:02:29 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on October 18, 2023, 05:15:56 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
I think having grown up with customized apps, reccommendation engines, and The Algorithm(TM), they just expect to get personalized information and instructions on everything. They can't conceive of everyone getting exactly the same information and having to figure out for themselves what's relevant to them.
Syllabi have become increasingly less important for students to look at in many classes, including my own. Readings are usually posted in the CMS, so they aren't pulling the thing out, so it isn't that shocking they don't think to go look at it.
Office hours are also prominently displayed at the top of the CMS page.
It may not surprise you to learn that one of these students has now emailed to ask me where my office hours are held. Which, you may have guessed, is also prominently displayed on the CMS, right under when the office hours are.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2023, 12:15:07 PMI'm getting the "please let me register for your class" emails. We are 1/3 of the way through Fall. No, I will not excuse you from 1/3 of the materials. No, it is not practical/reasonable for you to "get caught up". Take the class next quarter.
Yeah, I got one of those the other day. Except we're halfway through. I'm willing to allow it for students facing deportation, but failing the class is not great for their study permits either.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on October 19, 2023, 05:21:12 PMQuote from: the_geneticist on October 19, 2023, 12:15:07 PMI'm getting the "please let me register for your class" emails. We are 1/3 of the way through Fall. No, I will not excuse you from 1/3 of the materials. No, it is not practical/reasonable for you to "get caught up". Take the class next quarter.
Yeah, I got one of those the other day. Except we're halfway through. I'm willing to allow it for students facing deportation, but failing the class is not great for their study permits either.
Has anyone had one of these students who pleaded to be added late and who then actually proceeded to work really hard to not only catch up, but do
well? Honestly, I can't think of a single one. Most don't even get completely caught up.
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 20, 2023, 05:11:30 AMHas anyone had one of these students who pleaded to be added late and who then actually proceeded to work really hard to not only catch up, but do well? Honestly, I can't think of a single one. Most don't even get completely caught up.
Nope, never. Ditto for the "I don't have the prerequisite but the subject is so interesting to me I'll work extra hard to catch up".
Quote from: onehappyunicorn on October 19, 2023, 11:02:36 AMStudent emailed me to ask if I would please clear their attempt to submit an assignment because they weren't done writing it out yet. Considering that the instructions explicitly say to type the assignment out in a word processing program and then copy it over the the submission box I'm not sure how someone accidentally submits a partially written submission.
I mean, I know how, but sending me an email like you are just the unfortunate victim of an accident isn't the best look.
Look at the publication date:
https://activelearningps.com/2017/10/06/first-impressions/ (https://activelearningps.com/2017/10/06/first-impressions/)
Quote from: FishProf on October 20, 2023, 08:19:23 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on October 20, 2023, 05:11:30 AMHas anyone had one of these students who pleaded to be added late and who then actually proceeded to work really hard to not only catch up, but do well? Honestly, I can't think of a single one. Most don't even get completely caught up.
Nope, never. Ditto for the "I don't have the prerequisite but the subject is so interesting to me I'll work extra hard to catch up".
In my experience, they drop the course after failing the first exam.
I gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
The obvious advice is to let the students fail. They seem intent on doing so, so why get in their way?
These days, faculty often face obstacles to handing out lots of F grades.
How free are you to fail most of them?
Quote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
Did you do an in-class activity in which they brought in examples of the 3 concepts? I find that my lecturing goes in one ear and out the other. Videos don't do much. But if they are talking and applying, they really pay attention to each other.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 21, 2023, 11:06:59 AMQuote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
Did you do an in-class activity in which they brought in examples of the 3 concepts? I find that my lecturing goes in one ear and out the other. Videos don't do much. But if they are talking and applying, they really pay attention to each other.
Sometimes I'd do a followup after something like this. Maybe a "group quiz," repackaging the lesson in a different way. Then average the grades of the two assignments to replace the original?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on October 18, 2023, 03:50:05 AMQuote from: Puget on October 17, 2023, 12:51:59 PMI've now had two students today ask for scheduled time to meet because they say they can't come to office hours, then give me a list of available times that include my office hours.
This sort of lack of reading comprehension and attention to posted information may go a long way to explaining the poor class performance they are meeting to talk with me about.
Yep. I've had students, this semester, ask me when, and IF, I have office hours. Um, there is this thing called a syllabus which states exactly when I have office hours that I reviewed on the 1st day of class and that I reference EVERY class (for the course schedule). Frustrating!
A couple of years ago I had a student's parent contact the dean, complaining that his son had gotten behind due to a medical situation but was unable to meet with me because he wasn't available during my office hours. The dean called me to verify that I was willing to meet with students at other times. I assured him I was, but that said student had never requested a meeting. A couple of days later, the student did contact me for a meeting. I think you can guess when he wanted to meet...
Quote from: RatGuy on October 21, 2023, 02:57:02 PMQuote from: ciao_yall on October 21, 2023, 11:06:59 AMQuote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
Did you do an in-class activity in which they brought in examples of the 3 concepts? I find that my lecturing goes in one ear and out the other. Videos don't do much. But if they are talking and applying, they really pay attention to each other.
Sometimes I'd do a followup after something like this. Maybe a "group quiz," repackaging the lesson in a different way. Then average the grades of the two assignments to replace the original?
These are great ideas. Thanks. I had to cancel the in-class activity I had planned because I was out with Covid. Having the students bring in things could replace it. That'll make the final-grade math easier at the end of the semester as well! :)
Quote from: downer on October 21, 2023, 10:35:25 AMQuote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
The obvious advice is to let the students fail. They seem intent on doing so, so why get in their way?
These days, faculty often face obstacles to handing out lots of F grades.
How free are you to fail most of them?
Thank you too downer for your reply. I had been seriously considering just letting the students fail. There would probably be whining if I did, even though this is an incredibly low-stakes quiz. I am an adjunct, so I have no status. I haven't run into this scenario before, at least not anywhere near to this extent, so I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.
Quote from: Larimar on October 22, 2023, 01:53:57 PMso I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.
Ask your chair for guidance. Nothing bothers a Chair more than being blindsided by a mob of disgruntled students. If they will back you, they will say so. If they won't, you'll hear that. Act accordingly.
Quote from: Larimar on October 22, 2023, 01:53:57 PMQuote from: downer on October 21, 2023, 10:35:25 AMQuote from: Larimar on October 21, 2023, 10:28:53 AMI gave a quiz last week and got a shock when I saw the results. It was a low-stakes, multiple choice quiz on the three classic persuasive appeals. The questions essentially would take a quote from one of the readings the class has done up until now, and ask which appeal it exemplifies: logos, ethos, or pathos.
Two students passed, one with a D.
I'd lectured on the concept, assigned the textbook chapters, and posted an online video for them to watch on the LMS that also explains it, all before assigning the quiz. I hadn't given this quiz before; I wrote it for this term. I have no idea what went wrong. Any ideas or advice?
Thanks,
Larimar
The obvious advice is to let the students fail. They seem intent on doing so, so why get in their way?
These days, faculty often face obstacles to handing out lots of F grades.
How free are you to fail most of them?
Thank you too downer for your reply. I had been seriously considering just letting the students fail. There would probably be whining if I did, even though this is an incredibly low-stakes quiz. I am an adjunct, so I have no status. I haven't run into this scenario before, at least not anywhere near to this extent, so I don't know how far my department would have my back. They might; they treat me about as well as an adjunct could ask. I'm not willing to count on it though.
If this is actually a low stakes quiz, then I don't imagine the students are really going to react too badly to failing it, at least not if you frame it well. I would start by reminding them that it isn't a big deal by itself for the overall grade, but that this is an important concept for future assignments that won't be so low stakes. After that, I'd try asking the students for an honest assessment of what happened. Did the students get confused by something about the quiz. Did they not understand how to apply the ideas? Did they all have midterms last week and barely looked at the material? Was it homecoming that week and they were all too drunk and hungover to do the work? Depending on what you figure out, you can decide how to proceed.
So one of my obviously brilliant students asked me if today was the last lab. I said, "What?" Stu repeated the question and backed it up with the 'reasoning' that there were no more labs online on the course page. I told the student that's because I didn't open them yet, since they're in the future and that if stu was unsure, then stu could check the syllabus which has a course schedule in it. You'd think that the stu would realize that we're in the middle of the semester, so NO, we're not done with lab yet. Wtf?
So I am hoist by my own petard. I teach a really fun and interesting but rather niche course, and the university is always breathing down my neck because it gets marginal enrollment. Say the enrollment minimum is 20; the course usually enrolls 21 or 22. And then sometimes a few drop and we're at 19, which makes alarm bells go off at the budget office, and they send thugs over with heavy batons to interrogate me about why I persist in teaching such a marginal class. Meanwhile, in class, the students who remain are all there because they love the niche subject, and we have a lovely time and it's always my most engaged and rewarding class.
But as the thugs with batons become more threatening, I put the course through the process to get it approved for general-education credit. So now it counts for requirements, and students are beating down my door trying to get into the class. And the class fills up with these gen-ed students, edging out many of the enthusiastic students.
And now the teaching is miserable. The students don't want to be there. They just spotted a gen-ed course they thought they could manage without much effort. They don't come and sometimes even tell me why. ("It was my one-month anniversary of getting together with my boyfriend so we wanted to go out.") They are failing the quizzes. They don't study. They don't see the point of the subject at all. I see that I really did a number on myself in trying to rescue the class from low enrollment. I am dreading the rest of the semester.
I get the gen ed student crisis-- Latin did that for me.... so what's your solution for *this* problem?
No solution except endurance.
Quote from: Hegemony on October 23, 2023, 05:45:06 PMSo I am hoist by my own petard. I teach a really fun and interesting but rather niche course, and the university is always breathing down my neck because it gets marginal enrollment. Say the enrollment minimum is 20; the course usually enrolls 21 or 22. And then sometimes a few drop and we're at 19, which makes alarm bells go off at the budget office, and they send thugs over with heavy batons to interrogate me about why I persist in teaching such a marginal class. Meanwhile, in class, the students who remain are all there because they love the niche subject, and we have a lovely time and it's always my most engaged and rewarding class.
But as the thugs with batons become more threatening, I put the course through the process to get it approved for general-education credit. So now it counts for requirements, and students are beating down my door trying to get into the class. And the class fills up with these gen-ed students, edging out many of the enthusiastic students.
And now the teaching is miserable. The students don't want to be there. They just spotted a gen-ed course they thought they could manage without much effort. They don't come and sometimes even tell me why. ("It was my one-month anniversary of getting together with my boyfriend so we wanted to go out.") They are failing the quizzes. They don't study. They don't see the point of the subject at all. I see that I really did a number on myself in trying to rescue the class from low enrollment. I am dreading the rest of the semester.
If there's ever a discussion about the "value" of gen ed, this needs to be part of it.
Day 1 - Scare the bejeesus out of the class. Slackers will bail.
Student comes to office hours to talk about his 69% exam grade. I ask him how he studied and it is all passive re-reading/re-watching lecture videos AND he doesn't take notes. We talk about active study strategies -- generally students are very open to trying these when I explain how much better they work. Not this student though-- he is absolutely resistant to trying anything different, and just keeps saying that the way he studied has worked for him before so there must be something he's "just not getting" about what I'm looking for. So we go over the exam, and what he's "not getting" is that he has to able to recall the information and actually answer the questions (one he mostly left blank). I point out as gently as I can that here is direct evidence that he couldn't recall the information, and that the strategies we just talked about that he does't want to try would help him recall the information next time. Does he want to try them? No, he does not. OK kid, I tried, continued poor performance at this point is entirely on you.
Just past the mid-point, and 7 of 23 students are on track to pass my online course. 5 of them haven't done any work yet.
Quote from: FishProf on October 24, 2023, 10:41:37 AMJust past the mid-point, and 7 of 23 students are on track to pass my online course. 5 of them haven't done any work yet.
Ugh. Yet another reason I really don't want to do any online teaching. It sounds demoralizing, especially if the "powers that be" don't realize that the failure rate in online classes will be higher than in-person classes.
I received this email from a student today. It was clearly written using ChatGPT:
QuoteDear Professor,
I hope this message finds you well. I am writing to discuss the recent grade I received on my essay assignment, which I am deeply concerned about. I understand that you assigned a failing grade for the essay, and I would like to explain the circumstances surrounding this grade and respectfully request a reconsideration of my performance.
The essay assignment is a significant component of this course, and its successful completion is crucial for me to understand and internalize the course material effectively. I am fully committed to doing my best and ensuring my success in this class. I believe that my understanding of the course material has improved significantly, and I am eager to demonstrate my progress through a well-written essay.
Furthermore, I am faced with a challenging situation that makes it even more imperative for me to secure a passing grade on this assignment. My parents are currently unable to afford the fees for me to retake this course, and my academic progress depends heavily on this particular assignment. Failing this assignment would not only affect my academic standing but also create a financial burden that my family and I cannot bear.
Given the circumstances and the importance of this assignment, I kindly request your reconsideration of my grade for the essay. I am willing to resubmit the assignment if necessary or complete any additional work to demonstrate my understanding of the course material. I am committed to learning and growing in this course and hope that you will provide me with the opportunity to do so.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I look forward to your response and hope for a positive resolution that will allow me to continue my studies without the fear of repeating the course.
Sincerely,
Stu Dent
Here's my reply, which will provide necessary context:
QuoteHi Stu,
This is the entirety of the essay you submitted: "Animal-iNC".
As you can see, I cannot possibly give that "essay" any points whatsoever. It's not even a sentence.
Take care,
-Para
I'm pretty sure what happened here is that Stu tried to copy/paste their AI essay into the submission box and hit 'submit' without even looking at what they'd done (why there's any text at all, I dunno). But copy/paste was disabled for the essay, so they ended up with a blank box.
I cannot believe I had to give the following instructions to graduate students:
"C) Remember also that simple algebra may be needed to rearrange the equations, and make sure your units match before you calculate.
D) Be careful: follow instructions when giving your answers (proper units and decimal places)"
After their last exam I felt it important to remind them of middle school math for the next one...
Quote from: bio-nonymous on November 09, 2023, 09:27:16 AMI cannot believe I had to give the following instructions to graduate students:
"C) Remember also that simple algebra may be needed to rearrange the equations, and make sure your units match before you calculate.
D) Be careful: follow instructions when giving your answers (proper units and decimal places)"
After their last exam I felt it important to remind them of middle school math for the next one...
Yesterday I had to remind senior mechanical engineering students to include units in their calculations. One of my colleagues is known to ask students... "Two point three what? Pounds? Meters? Gallons? Ducks? Angstroms?" I think once he retires I'm going to steal that line.
We began the final module for the semester in my Comp I classes on Monday. I spent tons of time going over the requirements of the final paper, reminded them that this paper will make/break the semester for some of them*, spent TONS of time giving examples of potential topics and went over the "thou shalt not write" topics in detail; and spent most of 2 class periods showing them how to use Opposing Viewpoints to help them pick a topic if they didn't know what to write about. They're locked in to their topic once approved/assigned because they don't have time to play around and restart, or potentially plagiarize in a panic.
They had to submit their topic proposals in Canvas by 10 a.m. today. If they didn't choose, I'd be happy to pick one for them [evil laugh, now and each of the 3 times I reminded them about this]. Of 35 students, one picked the very first topic on the "DON'T WRITE ON THIS" list. Twelve submitted acceptable topics. Three need to get back to me with clarifications before I'll approve their topics. And the other 20 didn't submit a damned thing, so I had to waste time choosing topics and assigning them. (In the past, I've only ever had one or two abdicate the choice to me.)
Yeah, I can already tell these are just going to be pure gold to read. Or pure something.....
------
*Today was the LDW, so I didn't count the other 7 who can't pass but haven't withdrawn, despite repeated notices from me and Advising to get them to drop.
Quote from: AmLitHist on November 17, 2023, 11:14:01 AMWe began the final module for the semester in my Comp I classes on Monday. I spent tons of time going over the requirements of the final paper, reminded them that this paper will make/break the semester for some of them*, spent TONS of time giving examples of potential topics and went over the "thou shalt not write" topics in detail; and spent most of 2 class periods showing them how to use Opposing Viewpoints to help them pick a topic if they didn't know what to write about. They're locked in to their topic once approved/assigned because they don't have time to play around and restart, or potentially plagiarize in a panic.
They had to submit their topic proposals in Canvas by 10 a.m. today. If they didn't choose, I'd be happy to pick one for them [evil laugh, now and each of the 3 times I reminded them about this]. Of 35 students, one picked the very first topic on the "DON'T WRITE ON THIS" list. Twelve submitted acceptable topics. Three need to get back to me with clarifications before I'll approve their topics. And the other 20 didn't submit a damned thing, so I had to waste time choosing topics and assigning them. (In the past, I've only ever had one or two abdicate the choice to me.)
Yeah, I can already tell these are just going to be pure gold to read. Or pure something.....
------
*Today was the LDW, so I didn't count the other 7 who can't pass but haven't withdrawn, despite repeated notices from me and Advising to get them to drop.
Sounds like just another Friday to me . . .
I can now check "student is shocked that leaving early for vacation is not an excused absence" off my yearly bingo card.
Co-instructor is clear that they just wants to take the easiest way out of the semester as possible. They are inflating grades, not failing students for plagiarism, and refuse to discuss grading with me. My choices are either to say "screw it" and follow suit or grade my half of the students according to actual standards. I guess I'll go with a compromise option--generally inflate grades but still crack down on obvious plagiarism. This semester cannot end soon enough.
Quote from: Puget on November 17, 2023, 02:07:34 PMI can now check "student is shocked that leaving early for vacation is not an excused absence" off my yearly bingo card.
I'd like to leave for vacation early! Can I be excused from my responsibilities too?
Quote from: the_geneticist on November 20, 2023, 10:36:45 AMQuote from: Puget on November 17, 2023, 02:07:34 PMI can now check "student is shocked that leaving early for vacation is not an excused absence" off my yearly bingo card.
I'd like to leave for vacation early! Can I be excused from my responsibilities too?
That's pretty much what I told her. She said in indignation "so you're saying there's NO accommodation for this?" Yep, that's what I'm saying alright. I already drop their two lowest in class assignments, which I think is plenty generous.
Quote from: Puget on November 20, 2023, 03:34:23 PMQuote from: the_geneticist on November 20, 2023, 10:36:45 AMQuote from: Puget on November 17, 2023, 02:07:34 PMI can now check "student is shocked that leaving early for vacation is not an excused absence" off my yearly bingo card.
I'd like to leave for vacation early! Can I be excused from my responsibilities too?
That's pretty much what I told her. She said in indignation "so you're saying there's NO accommodation for this?" Yep, that's what I'm saying alright. I already drop their two lowest in class assignments, which I think is plenty generous.
I'm fully in agreement with the sentiment, but I try to finesse these kinds of discussions with "oh, well yes, that's why I drop two of the in class assignments. I understand that over the course of the semester, you might have a personal obligation and I want to make sure that doesn't hurt your grade as long as you are attending class regularly, so if you've been doing that you'll be fine!"
Quote from: Caracal on November 21, 2023, 06:25:02 AMQuote from: Puget on November 20, 2023, 03:34:23 PMQuote from: the_geneticist on November 20, 2023, 10:36:45 AMQuote from: Puget on November 17, 2023, 02:07:34 PMI can now check "student is shocked that leaving early for vacation is not an excused absence" off my yearly bingo card.
I'd like to leave for vacation early! Can I be excused from my responsibilities too?
That's pretty much what I told her. She said in indignation "so you're saying there's NO accommodation for this?" Yep, that's what I'm saying alright. I already drop their two lowest in class assignments, which I think is plenty generous.
I'm fully in agreement with the sentiment, but I try to finesse these kinds of discussions with "oh, well yes, that's why I drop two of the in class assignments. I understand that over the course of the semester, you might have a personal obligation and I want to make sure that doesn't hurt your grade as long as you are attending class regularly, so if you've been doing that you'll be fine!"
That's what I tell them if they are a polite about asking, but the brazen entitlement and attitude she displayed is not something I want to encourage.
I have my first "clearly AI" plagiarism.
The topic: Shark behavior re: biting humans.
The offending passage? 800 words on "swimming with sharks" and safeguards in British Law for VCs (venture capitalists, never written out) inserted randomly in a mostly correct discourse on shark evolution in the Devonian.
Still can't even cheat right, and AI makes it worse.
Stu was just in my office doing the "I'll do anything to pass," routine and saying that I was not helping, that I was not telling him what he needed to do to pass. He is right at 70% and this is a C course for the major. I repeated to him, "I've already told you what you need to do to pass. Come to class these next two weeks, do the work as assigned, and ask questions if you have them."
Then he said, "I did much better in the class when I took it with Prof. A." I reminded him that he failed it the last time he took it, which was why he was in my class this semester. That earned me a glare. He again said I needed to tell him what to do, and I repeated the same answer as before. And I added that there was no extra credit, no re-do of previous work, and that I was not going to make extra work for myself at this point in the semester and would not offer him anything that I would not offer to the entire class because to do otherwise would be unfair. He then stated that if he took the class again next semester, I'd have to grade his work again and that would be extra work. I said that that wouldn't be extra work for me, it was part of my normal workload to grade the assignments of everyone enrolled in the course. He snorted, huffed, said 'whatever,' and left.
He's a super senior, 11th semester. He is routinely late to class and has failed several of the in-class assignments. I strongly suspect he's getting lots of 'extra' help on the homework (not doing it himself) but those are worth only a small part of the overall grade. The in-class work is almost exactly like the homework and the demos done in lecture, only they can't consult with each other when doing it, but can use their notes and book. The median and mode grade in this class is currently 88%, but he also tried to give me the "no one is doing well in this class," routine. Ugh. There's always at least one, every semester, isn't there? Two weeks until finals. I surely can make it two more weeks!
You weren't telling him "what he wanted to hear" so you were very unhelpful.
Can your dept not simply defenestrate him from the major and be done with him?
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 27, 2023, 12:10:47 PMStu was just in my office doing the "I'll do anything to pass," routine and saying that I was not helping, that I was not telling him what he needed to do to pass. He is right at 70% and this is a C course for the major. I repeated to him, "I've already told you what you need to do to pass. Come to class these next two weeks, do the work as assigned, and ask questions if you have them."
Then he said, "I did much better in the class when I took it with Prof. A." I reminded him that he failed it the last time he took it, which was why he was in my class this semester. That earned me a glare. He again said I needed to tell him what to do, and I repeated the same answer as before. And I added that there was no extra credit, no re-do of previous work, and that I was not going to make extra work for myself at this point in the semester and would not offer him anything that I would not offer to the entire class because to do otherwise would be unfair. He then stated that if he took the class again next semester, I'd have to grade his work again and that would be extra work. I said that that wouldn't be extra work for me, it was part of my normal workload to grade the assignments of everyone enrolled in the course. He snorted, huffed, said 'whatever,' and left.
He's a super senior, 11th semester. He is routinely late to class and has failed several of the in-class assignments. I strongly suspect he's getting lots of 'extra' help on the homework (not doing it himself) but those are worth only a small part of the overall grade. The in-class work is almost exactly like the homework and the demos done in lecture, only they can't consult with each other when doing it, but can use their notes and book. The median and mode grade in this class is currently 88%, but he also tried to give me the "no one is doing well in this class," routine. Ugh. There's always at least one, every semester, isn't there? Two weeks until finals. I surely can make it two more weeks!
Could you email Stu along the lines of "this is what we dicussed when we met in my office", and once again reiterating what Stu needs to do in order to pass the course/get a higher grade? CC-ing Stu's advisor and your chair might be helpful. It's always a good idea to leave a paper trail.
Quote from: Langue_doc on November 28, 2023, 03:51:31 AM...
Could you email Stu along the lines of "this is what we dicussed when we met in my office", and once again reiterating what Stu needs to do in order to pass the course/get a higher grade? CC-ing Stu's advisor and your chair might be helpful. It's always a good idea to leave a paper trail.
You're right, keeping tabs on this kind of student is important. I didn't email, but I did talk to his advisor, who is our department chair. I told him that Stu may come complaining and he said that I shouldn't worry if he did complain, he had plenty of experience with Stu and would tell him the same things I did, that the only way to pass is to do the assigned work. I'm lucky to have a chair who has our six when it comes to student whinging and moaning.
Kay - we can't get rid of him, he's making progress, slowly but surely, he is making progress. He's the kind of student that when his name comes up in faculty meetings, everyone rolls their eyes and says something like "Oh, so you have him this semester, have fun with that."
I have 51 students enrolled in one of my classes. A grand total of 28 showed up for the first quiz. I'm sure it will be all my fault when there's a massive fail rate in this class...
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 28, 2023, 05:43:44 AMI'm lucky to have a chair who has our six when it comes to student whinging and moaning.
This is such a wonderful thing to have. I don't at my current job and it makes things much more stressful.
I have to retract my statement about the obvious AI. The student did, in fact, just copy the passage about Venture Capitalists "swimming with sharks" because her google literature search turned up a paper with "shark" in the title.
I am a little stunned by the abject stupidity I just encountered.
But how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
Quote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2023, 12:22:35 AMBut how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
In our School of Engineering, we only allow 2 attempts at a course. To get a third (I'm being vague to avoid outing myself by quoting actual policy), a student basically has to get permission from multiple people including their advisor, the department chair, assistant dean, etc. etc. and write a letter about why they failed the first two times, their specific plans to pass the third time and I've only seen that appeal done successfully a few times. And I think that's a good bit of why Stu is so insistent on needing to pass the course this time, it's his second time through, and a third attempt is not likely to be approved. He could still pass, but he needs to put in the effort.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 29, 2023, 05:49:52 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2023, 12:22:35 AMBut how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
In our School of Engineering, we only allow 2 attempts at a course. To get a third (I'm being vague to avoid outing myself by quoting actual policy), a student basically has to get permission from multiple people including their advisor, the department chair, assistant dean, etc. etc. and write a letter about why they failed the first two times, their specific plans to pass the third time and I've only seen that appeal done successfully a few times. And I think that's a good bit of why Stu is so insistent on needing to pass the course this time, it's his second time through, and a third attempt is not likely to be approved. He could still pass, but he needs to put in the effort.
So it seems likely that the student will be "defenestrated" from the program in the near future after all.
Come on, student! Put in the effort! You can (and must) do better than this!
Quote from: apl68 on November 29, 2023, 06:29:46 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on November 29, 2023, 05:49:52 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2023, 12:22:35 AMBut how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
In our School of Engineering, we only allow 2 attempts at a course. To get a third (I'm being vague to avoid outing myself by quoting actual policy), a student basically has to get permission from multiple people including their advisor, the department chair, assistant dean, etc. etc. and write a letter about why they failed the first two times, their specific plans to pass the third time and I've only seen that appeal done successfully a few times. And I think that's a good bit of why Stu is so insistent on needing to pass the course this time, it's his second time through, and a third attempt is not likely to be approved. He could still pass, but he needs to put in the effort.
So it seems likely that the student will be "defenestrated" from the program in the near future after all.
Come on, student! Put in the effort! You can (and must) do better than this!
If a student failed the class twice already, the chances of them (1) remembering enough of whatever they didn't absorb the first two times (2) adding it to a third equally weak try, and (3) being enough to pass... is pretty low.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 29, 2023, 05:49:52 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2023, 12:22:35 AMBut how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
In our School of Engineering, we only allow 2 attempts at a course. To get a third (I'm being vague to avoid outing myself by quoting actual policy), a student basically has to get permission from multiple people including their advisor, the department chair, assistant dean, etc. etc. and write a letter about why they failed the first two times, their specific plans to pass the third time and I've only seen that appeal done successfully a few times. And I think that's a good bit of why Stu is so insistent on needing to pass the course this time, it's his second time through, and a third attempt is not likely to be approved. He could still pass, but he needs to put in the effort.
We have a similar policy at our university, and have had for as long as I can remember. There have been cases of students basically failing out of a program because of failing a required course twice, so there's no way for them to meet the requirement.
We had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
As we push to the end of the semester I really wish I didn't know exactly how it is going to end for a fair chunk of my students. I'm already getting emails and in-class conversations about how to make up missed classes, missed assignments, etc. It doesn't seem to matter that all the information is in the syllabus, that I have announced it in class multiple times, and that I have posted all of the policies recently on the LMS because I know the grade grubbing is coming.
I teach a figure drawing class where we draw from a model every class, there is no way to make up that studio time. I tell students at the beginning of the class that missing that drawing time is going to negatively affect their grade and yet the student with five absences is just dumbstruck that their grade has been lowered accordingly.
I get an email telling me that they are going to miss another class but really don't want their grade to go down so isn't there something they can do. Well, I sure wish I didn't have to experience the negative consequences of my poor decision as well, I don't know what to tell you. I still hold out hope that eating a pint of Ben & Jerry's will make me lose weight instead of gaining it...
Quote from: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:29:40 AMWe had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
It must have been a nightmare for that faculty member.
We're about to adopt a limit to repeats rule in my department. Some students just never get over the hump, but it differs for which hump is the problem.
We typically have students who repeat the course, and then work LESS HARD because they've "already seen this material before". Then they fail. Again.
Quote from: EdnaMode on November 29, 2023, 05:49:52 AMQuote from: kaysixteen on November 29, 2023, 12:22:35 AMBut how much of his 'progress' is really just due to the reality that the more he retakes any given class, the more he will simply memorize enough of the required answers to pass the tests, without actually learning the skills taught in the class, which if it is indeed a major req with a C minimum req, should be important to know? Med schools, etc, do not allow endless course retakes, right?
In our School of Engineering, we only allow 2 attempts at a course. To get a third (I'm being vague to avoid outing myself by quoting actual policy), a student basically has to get permission from multiple people including their advisor, the department chair, assistant dean, etc. etc. and write a letter about why they failed the first two times, their specific plans to pass the third time and I've only seen that appeal done successfully a few times. And I think that's a good bit of why Stu is so insistent on needing to pass the course this time, it's his second time through, and a third attempt is not likely to be approved. He could still pass, but he needs to put in the effort.
We allow 2 attempts AND you can only repeat if you did not earn a passing score the first time. And they have low registration priority. Anyone who is attempting the class for the first time gets to register and if there are any seats left, then those are offered for any repeaters.
3rd attempts are sometimes allowed if the student had extenuating circumstances, but it's not encouraged.
9d to go. My online class looks like this:
1/3 Will Pass (if they pass the final)
1/3 Might Pass (if they pass the final)
1/3 Will Not Pass under any circumstances
The begging emails have begun....to fall on deaf ears.
Besides the issue of a school likely taking advantage of a student by allowing endless retakes, rather than making the student deal with the reality that he should not be allowed to continue in major X, well...
I recall, years back, when entering grad school, attending a lecture for new grad teaching fellows, given by a dean, who was a biology prof of some sort, who also taught a summer school course at the uni's med school. I forget what the course was, but at this time (1989), this course was one that the AMA required of all med students, who were supposed to pass this class with whatever the required pass grade was, and they were required to only get two chances to take the class, after which, on two failures, they would be washed out of med school with no chance of return. The summer school version dean taught was the make-up session for students who had failed the first time. Therefore, she knew that any student who failed was out of med school, doc dreams shattered, etc. That meant she tried to be as charitable as possible-- she said that every summer, the students ended up in three categories, the obvious clear passes, the obvious clear failures, and... the bubblers. She said she looked at each individual bubbler and tried to give them, as much as possible, the benefit of the doubt, whilst recalling this salient point: whomever I pass here could be operating on my grandmother in five years.
Quote from: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:29:40 AMWe had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
Some years back I taught freshman comp as an adjunct at a very large community college (at least 20K students). One of my students failed my class three times in a row, to my utter amazement: Stu had dozens of other sections from which to choose, including several that met at the exact same time as my classes.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on November 30, 2023, 08:11:59 PMQuote from: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:29:40 AMWe had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
Some years back I taught freshman comp as an adjunct at a very large community college (at least 20K students). One of my students failed my class three times in a row, to my utter amazement: Stu had dozens of other sections from which to choose, including several that met at the exact same time as my classes.
AR.
This sounds like some kind of dystopian
Groundhog Day scenario.
Quote from: AvidReader on November 30, 2023, 08:11:59 PMQuote from: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:29:40 AMWe had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
Some years back I taught freshman comp as an adjunct at a very large community college (at least 20K students). One of my students failed my class three times in a row, to my utter amazement: Stu had dozens of other sections from which to choose, including several that met at the exact same time as my classes.
AR.
I've had that happen several times. This past spring, I had a student taking Comp I for the sixth time (second in a row with me). She failed again.
Quote from: AmLitHist on December 01, 2023, 08:28:34 AMQuote from: AvidReader on November 30, 2023, 08:11:59 PMQuote from: mythbuster on November 29, 2023, 08:29:40 AMWe had to institute the two strikes and you are out rule after one student infamously failed a senior level required course six different times. The real kicker to the story is that at that time, we only had one faculty member who taught the course (we now have 4). So they took it 6 times with the same faculty member!
Some years back I taught freshman comp as an adjunct at a very large community college (at least 20K students). One of my students failed my class three times in a row, to my utter amazement: Stu had dozens of other sections from which to choose, including several that met at the exact same time as my classes.
AR.
I've had that happen several times. This past spring, I had a student taking Comp I for the sixth time (second in a row with me). She failed again.
I have a student re-taking my online asynchronous course this term. The assignments are pretty much the same each time I offer the class. He has not even bothered to submit the assignments he completed last term, so is slated to earn an even lower F (if there were such a thing) this term. I don't really understand the point of signing up for a class if you do not plan to even attempt the work...
I think that allowing students to take and fail classes over and over again, really any more than three times, and that's pushing it, amounts to fraud on the part of the institution. To keep taking these students' money (whether it's their own money, their parent's money, or loans) when it's pretty darn clear they are never going to get a degree is disgusting. But hey, it keeps enrollment numbers up, right?
Quote from: EdnaMode on December 01, 2023, 08:41:55 AMI think that allowing students to take and fail classes over and over again, really any more than three times, and that's pushing it, amounts to fraud on the part of the institution. To keep taking these students' money (whether it's their own money, their parent's money, or loans) when it's pretty darn clear they are never going to get a degree is disgusting. But hey, it keeps enrollment numbers up, right?
I really hope that there are not many schools out there that would stoop that low, at least outside the avowedly for-profit sector.
I am at a compass point public Uni and we pendulum swing between allowing multiple repeats and instituting strong pre-req requirements (must have a B or better in the pre-req to enroll). It all depends on which metric the admins are most worried about at that moment.
Signs right now are we might be swinging back towards higher standards as the failure rates are truly alarming. I will enjoy it while it lasts.
Quote from: apl68 on December 01, 2023, 10:47:13 AMQuote from: EdnaMode on December 01, 2023, 08:41:55 AMI think that allowing students to take and fail classes over and over again, really any more than three times, and that's pushing it, amounts to fraud on the part of the institution. To keep taking these students' money (whether it's their own money, their parent's money, or loans) when it's pretty darn clear they are never going to get a degree is disgusting. But hey, it keeps enrollment numbers up, right?
I really hope that there are not many schools out there that would stoop that low, at least outside the avowedly for-profit sector.
I'm at an open-door CC, and 2 of our 4 campuses are in economically poor/disadvantaged areas. I can't remember the last time I haven't had at least one (and usually more) student who's here on the 12/15/20-year plan. Usually there will be a gap or two for academic and/or financial aid suspension, then back they come.
A reminder of what can go wrong late in the semester:
Late Friday afternoon the daughter of a library staff member, who is a senior in college, was involved in a major road accident. Another driver wandered into her lane and hit head-on. Her vehicle flipped and caught fire. She crawled out through a window in time and called for help. She was not injured beyond being badly shaken and bruised. The other driver, an older man, had to be airlifted to Little Rock. If he lives, he may lose a limb.
The daughter had to spend most of Friday evening at the emergency room getting a precautionary check-up, and so was unable to complete and submit her last-ever college assignment. Her college ID and other IDs were also destroyed--which makes her unable to present her college ID to collect her cap and gown for her graduation this coming Friday.
She is now frantically e-mailing assorted faculty and administrators to try to get everything straightened out in time to keep her from missing her graduation. I hope this last-minute emergency doesn't cause any head-desk moments on the part of those she is contacting. At least it is a legitimate emergency, and not a product of student negligence or goofiness.
QuoteI'm at an open-door CC, and 2 of our 4 campuses are in economically poor/disadvantaged areas. I can't remember the last time I haven't had at least one (and usually more) student who's here on the 12/15/20-year plan. Usually there will be a gap or two for academic and/or financial aid suspension, then back they come.
I've been at my cc here for 11 years, I have a student who was in one of the very first classes I taught who is still taking classes. He ends up in one program for three years or so before he switches, or is encouraged to switch, to another one. I think he is one his fourth major, I assume at this point his parents think of us as adult day care. He clearly has some form of ADHD that is untreated, he told me his parents don't believe in medication so here he is at almost 30 years old still kicking around.
IT services emailed to ask if they could delete my Moodle course shells, since they take up a lot of space (4 gigs--they're mostly online courses, so...).
No. Absolutely not.
Dear snowflakes,
On the essay exam question about using behavior research to improve zoo animal welfare, you were asked to give 3 examples.
3 instances of giving animals food choice is NOT 3 examples, it is one, 3 times.
Well I've got a first for me. Student A's revised paper got flagged by Turnitin. Why? They copied the abstract from Student B's paper. How did they get it? It was their peer review assignment!
Thankfully, Turnitin gives me not just the abstract, but also the info from the cover page, which includes Student B's name. If not for this cover page info, I would not know which student they had copied from.
Quote from: mythbuster on December 13, 2023, 01:13:36 PMWell I've got a first for me. Student A's revised paper got flagged by Turnitin. Why? They copied the abstract from Student B's paper. How did they get it? It was their peer review assignment!
Thankfully, Turnitin gives me not just the abstract, but also the info from the cover page, which includes Student B's name. If not for this cover page info, I would not know which student they had copied from.
Damn.
I got a rough draft in Comp I last week with nary a citation or signal phrase in the damned works, and a WC page containing only two author's names (nothing else--not even a page title) after multiple lectures, presentations, reading and video assignments, hands-on graded work, and quizzes on plagiarism avoidance every week since midterm; we did two in-class workshops prior to the rough draft submission, both focused on specifically looking at their citations and attributions.
In all instances of absent documentation up to this draft, I'd pointed it out in my feedback, demonstrated how to do it correctly, and given a stern written wrist slap, telling them I was giving them a break and not filing a charge so that they could learn from their mistakes. However, by the rough and final draft of this final essay, all bets were off: if they plagiarized, they'd get a zero for the draft and a formal charge with Admin, and if it happened again on the final draft, it would be a second formal charge and an F for the semester (per the plagiarism policy in the syllabus). I made this clear in EVERY class session since mid-November, and put it in as boilerplate feedback on those who plagiarized in the final essay rough draft.
As I hoped against hope that it wouldn't happen. . . . yep. This student got two zeros, two plagiarism charges, and an F for the semester, all in a matter of 8 days.
Thud. Thud. Thud.
I have a grade dispute from a student whose lecture exam grades were 60 and 44% respectively, only had one grading category above a C- and failed the final. She is outraged at the D+ grade.
As I explained in student hours when she came to see me ....oh wait, that never happened.
Quote from: FishProf on December 16, 2023, 12:04:04 PMI have a grade dispute from a student whose lecture exam grades were 60 and 44% respectively, only had one grading category above a C- and failed the final. She is outraged at the D+ grade.
As I explained in student hours when she came to see me ....oh wait, that never happened.
I have an astonishing number of students who can't perform the grade calculation for themselves. One recently told me that when he did it, he got a grade of 86%, not 52% (the correct grade)!
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on December 16, 2023, 12:26:45 PMI have an astonishing number of students who can't perform the grade calculation for themselves. One recently told me that when he did it, he got a grade of 86%, not 52% (the correct grade)!
This would be so much funnier if you taught math.
AR.
Quote from: AvidReader on December 16, 2023, 07:23:03 PMQuote from: Parasaurolophus on December 16, 2023, 12:26:45 PMI have an astonishing number of students who can't perform the grade calculation for themselves. One recently told me that when he did it, he got a grade of 86%, not 52% (the correct grade)!
This would be so much funnier if you taught math.
AR.
As it happens, I teach a formal methods class that includes basic stats.
I just had to pause my weekend relaxation and put on my admin hat to sort out truth versus mistruth about final exams. A faculty member reached out to say that a student had just told her that multiple other faculty were canceling final exams tomorrow because of weather (rain) and asking if her final was also canceled. Some digging revealed that the student was referring to one professor who is not canceling anything. It's like the students think we all live in bubbles and never speak to each other!
Yes, Virginia, there IS an exam.
I have already graded all exams and submitted grades. I just had knee replacement surgery and my auto-reply email clearly states I am out on medical leave but one student (mentioned elsewhere) has sent 5 emails in three days begging to get corrections and "just talk". My auto-reply directed her to my chair, whom she is also bombarding.
This doesn't help your case. You didn't contact me 5 times all semester when you were getting poor grades, but NOW you are chatty Cathy? Not a good look.
And I am on leave.
Quote from: sinenomine on December 17, 2023, 12:27:55 PMI just had to pause my weekend relaxation and put on my admin hat to sort out truth versus mistruth about final exams. A faculty member reached out to say that a student had just told her that multiple other faculty were canceling final exams tomorrow because of weather (rain) and asking if her final was also canceled. Some digging revealed that the student was referring to one professor who is not canceling anything. It's like the students think we all live in bubbles and never speak to each other!
Yes, Virginia, there IS an exam.
Was that Professor Noah, by any chance? I don't know what it's like to live in a hurricane zone but I can't recall
ever hearing of classes or exams being cancelled on the basis of a prediction of
rain.
Quote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2023, 04:54:48 AMQuote from: sinenomine on December 17, 2023, 12:27:55 PMI just had to pause my weekend relaxation and put on my admin hat to sort out truth versus mistruth about final exams. A faculty member reached out to say that a student had just told her that multiple other faculty were canceling final exams tomorrow because of weather (rain) and asking if her final was also canceled. Some digging revealed that the student was referring to one professor who is not canceling anything. It's like the students think we all live in bubbles and never speak to each other!
Yes, Virginia, there IS an exam.
Was that Professor Noah, by any chance? I don't know what it's like to live in a hurricane zone but I can't recall ever hearing of classes or exams being cancelled on the basis of a prediction of rain.
I have been at two "hurricane prone" places (and lived through a couple major cat3s and a cat4), and yes, sometimes classes are cancelled in anticipation of inclement severe weather/flooding from major tropical storms or hurricanes. Sometimes, even usually, this amounts to a big nothing burger--once it was sunny by mid-morning after a near-miss. But I guess erring on the side of caution is smart. Obviously when a hurricane is coming the best thing to do is to take it seriously-- But for a regular rain storm, come on...
Quote from: bio-nonymous on December 18, 2023, 05:42:21 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2023, 04:54:48 AMQuote from: sinenomine on December 17, 2023, 12:27:55 PMI just had to pause my weekend relaxation and put on my admin hat to sort out truth versus mistruth about final exams. A faculty member reached out to say that a student had just told her that multiple other faculty were canceling final exams tomorrow because of weather (rain) and asking if her final was also canceled. Some digging revealed that the student was referring to one professor who is not canceling anything. It's like the students think we all live in bubbles and never speak to each other!
Yes, Virginia, there IS an exam.
Was that Professor Noah, by any chance? I don't know what it's like to live in a hurricane zone but I can't recall ever hearing of classes or exams being cancelled on the basis of a prediction of rain.
I have been at two "hurricane prone" places (and lived through a couple major cat3s and a cat4), and yes, sometimes classes are cancelled in anticipation of inclement severe weather/flooding from major tropical storms or hurricanes. Sometimes, even usually, this amounts to a big nothing burger--once it was sunny by mid-morning after a near-miss. But I guess erring on the side of caution is smart. Obviously when a hurricane is coming the best thing to do is to take it seriously-- But for a regular rain storm, come on...
Our new and dis-improved climate is beginning to produce "inland tropical storms" and other precipitation extremes that can stop business locally, so we're likely to see more of these legitimately in the future, and not just in previously hurricane-prone coastal areas.
But yeah, sounds like that student was trying to pull a fast one. This (and many other stories shared on this thread) is an example of what I've started to call "moronic cunning"--somebody THINKS they're being clever in getting one over on somebody, but is actually just looking like an idiot.
Quote from: apl68 on December 18, 2023, 07:41:34 AMQuote from: bio-nonymous on December 18, 2023, 05:42:21 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on December 18, 2023, 04:54:48 AMQuote from: sinenomine on December 17, 2023, 12:27:55 PMI just had to pause my weekend relaxation and put on my admin hat to sort out truth versus mistruth about final exams. A faculty member reached out to say that a student had just told her that multiple other faculty were canceling final exams tomorrow because of weather (rain) and asking if her final was also canceled. Some digging revealed that the student was referring to one professor who is not canceling anything. It's like the students think we all live in bubbles and never speak to each other!
Yes, Virginia, there IS an exam.
Was that Professor Noah, by any chance? I don't know what it's like to live in a hurricane zone but I can't recall ever hearing of classes or exams being cancelled on the basis of a prediction of rain.
I have been at two "hurricane prone" places (and lived through a couple major cat3s and a cat4), and yes, sometimes classes are cancelled in anticipation of inclement severe weather/flooding from major tropical storms or hurricanes. Sometimes, even usually, this amounts to a big nothing burger--once it was sunny by mid-morning after a near-miss. But I guess erring on the side of caution is smart. Obviously when a hurricane is coming the best thing to do is to take it seriously-- But for a regular rain storm, come on...
Our new and dis-improved climate is beginning to produce "inland tropical storms" and other precipitation extremes that can stop business locally, so we're likely to see more of these legitimately in the future, and not just in previously hurricane-prone coastal areas.
But yeah, sounds like that student was trying to pull a fast one. This (and many other stories shared on this thread) is an example of what I've started to call "moronic cunning"--somebody THINKS they're being clever in getting one over on somebody, but is actually just looking like an idiot.
I'm going to use "moronic cunning" -- oxymoron of the (finals) week!
This is self-despair (is that a thing?). I regret every minute I've spent worrying about the high number of Fs in my classes this semester (and there was a sizeable amount). About 85% of the students who failed my class also received at least one other F this semester. I need to better remind myself that I can't care more than they do and that it's usually them, not me. :)
So, I have a couple (at least) of dumbass online students. Why dumbass? Well, on the 'practice' quiz, they both (they were talking to each other on the phone I think) admitted to cheating using Respondus and mentioned techniques that they used. This quiz was not for credit, but I will be keeping an eye on the student who is in my class. I swear to God and all that is holy- can I have a semester without this crap?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 14, 2024, 10:31:35 AMSo, I have a couple (at least) of dumbass online students. Why dumbass? Well, on the 'practice' quiz, they both (they were talking to each other on the phone I think) admitted to cheating using Respondus and mentioned techniques that they used. This quiz was not for credit, but I will be keeping an eye on the student who is in my class. I swear to God and all that is holy- can I have a semester without this crap?
I've found myself being a lot more open about dealing with this kind of stuff, as in coming into class and saying, "Hey, sorry I'm a little late. I caught a student in another class using AI and had to finish the academic misconduct paperwork so I could fail them and nail them to the wall. So anyway! Let's go over the schedule for a second . . ."
Likewise, when I do videos for my online classes, I'll mention that if I look perturbed it's because I was doing all the academic misconduct paperwork to nail a student to the wall right before recording. Maybe flash a quick, evil, gratified smile there.
Obviously, I don't give names and specifics, but I think it's good to let them know we're aware and on the hunt.
Quote from: fishbrains on January 15, 2024, 09:07:32 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 14, 2024, 10:31:35 AMSo, I have a couple (at least) of dumbass online students. Why dumbass? Well, on the 'practice' quiz, they both (they were talking to each other on the phone I think) admitted to cheating using Respondus and mentioned techniques that they used. This quiz was not for credit, but I will be keeping an eye on the student who is in my class. I swear to God and all that is holy- can I have a semester without this crap?
I've found myself being a lot more open about dealing with this kind of stuff, as in coming into class and saying, "Hey, sorry I'm a little late. I caught a student in another class using AI and had to finish the academic misconduct paperwork so I could fail them and nail them to the wall. So anyway! Let's go over the schedule for a second . . ."
Likewise, when I do videos for my online classes, I'll mention that if I look perturbed it's because I was doing all the academic misconduct paperwork to nail a student to the wall right before recording. Maybe flash a quick, evil, gratified smile there.
Obviously, I don't give names and specifics, but I think it's good to let them know we're aware and on the hunt.
:D
I just had another study plagiarize the extra credit assignment ON HOW TO NOT PLAGIARIZE, where all they had to do is watch a video and tell me what they learned and what they didn't learn. So this student decided it was appropriate to copy a list of "what plagiarism is" from a cheating website. Good job, student! I can see you learned a lot!
Quote from: fosca on January 15, 2024, 10:23:07 AMI just had another study plagiarize the extra credit assignment ON HOW TO NOT PLAGIARIZE, where all they had to do is watch a video and tell me what they learned and what they didn't learn. So this student decided it was appropriate to copy a list of "what plagiarism is" from a cheating website. Good job, student! I can see you learned a lot!
That's just sad.
Stu formally appealed his failing grade in my course. The first step is to meet with me and see if I'll sign the form indicating that I agree that I'd violated either my own or the institution's policies. I said no policies had been violated and signed the appropriate form, which then gets sent on to my dept chair. I supplied the chair with my syllabus, the final project information including the grading rubric, the practical exam information including the rubric, and all other pertinent info to indicate just why Stu failed the course. Chair said that I had followed the syllabus and rubrics and had not violated any policies, so Stu got another firm no, again in writing, with me CC'd on it. Stu is appealing to a higher authority and is now saying that there were computer problems, etc. etc. etc. and adding to his rant. The thing is Stu, you applied for a grade change under certain criteria. You can't change them just because you didn't get the grade you wanted. Ugh. Looks like I'm going to have to fight this one all the way to the top.
Quote from: EdnaMode on January 18, 2024, 10:02:44 AMStu formally appealed his failing grade in my course. The first step is to meet with me and see if I'll sign the form indicating that I agree that I'd violated either my own or the institution's policies. I said no policies had been violated and signed the appropriate form, which then gets sent on to my dept chair. I supplied the chair with my syllabus, the final project information including the grading rubric, the practical exam information including the rubric, and all other pertinent info to indicate just why Stu failed the course. Chair said that I had followed the syllabus and rubrics and had not violated any policies, so Stu got another firm no, again in writing, with me CC'd on it. Stu is appealing to a higher authority and is now saying that there were computer problems, etc. etc. etc. and adding to his rant. The thing is Stu, you applied for a grade change under certain criteria. You can't change them just because you didn't get the grade you wanted. Ugh. Looks like I'm going to have to fight this one all the way to the top.
I had to provide documentation to my chair this week for two similar post-Fall appeals.
One online student was appealing because she failed the class. Um, NO? You can't formally appeal just because you don't like your grade. (Never mind that she didn't submit nearly 1/3 of the assignments, or that I'd been emailing her for weeks, saying that she was in danger of failing/later explaining that it would be mathematically impossible for her to pass.)
Another student was insulted that I'd accused her of plagiarizing. Well, sweetie, I not only accused you, I proved it--twice--after we'd spent the entire second half of the semester addressing plagiarism avoidance in every class meeting, to some degree or other. She earned a zero for the rough draft of the final essay, with detailed references linking about 3/4 of her text to the exact same language from source documents (failing to cite and/or use quotation marks); on that draft, I explicitly explained the problems and wrote, "If similar issues arise in your final draft, it too will be charged with plagiarism, and per the course policy, that second instance of plagiarism will earn an F for the course." So what did she do? Submitted the exact same rough draft (with one or two minor cosmetic changes) as the final draft, of course.
At least my chair and dean have my back on these (which hasn't always been the case, and may well not be in the future, as we're undergoing a re-org where I'm likely to have a chair not from my discipline and a dean who may have no experience in academics, i.e., someone from a CTE field).
I've spent much of my time in the past couple of weeks looking at my pension benefits projections and trying (vainly) to figure out some way I can retire sooner rather than later. A number of my colleagues report doing the same.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 19, 2024, 07:48:28 AM[snip]
At least my chair and dean have my back on these (which hasn't always been the case, and may well not be in the future, as we're undergoing a re-org where I'm likely to have a chair not from my discipline and a dean who may have no experience in academics, i.e., someone from a CTE field).
I've spent much of my time in the past couple of weeks looking at my pension benefits projections and trying (vainly) to figure out some way I can retire sooner rather than later. A number of my colleagues report doing the same.
I'm very fortunate that my chair has my six and he had a military career before becoming an engineering prof. And the next person the appeal goes to, a vice-provost, is pretty darn strict about these things and from all I've heard, he's never overturned a grade.
I still have 9 years to go before I can even consider retiring, unless they do a buyout, then I'm sure I'd be one of the first to sign up.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 19, 2024, 07:48:28 AM...I'm likely to have a chair not from my discipline and a dean who may have no experience in academics, i.e., someone from a CTE field).
Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy? That would explain a lot....
My students have to read the syllabus, watch a short vide about it, then take the syllabus quiz (25 questions) and get 100% to move on to the rest of the course material.
I currently have a student who has taken the syllabus quiz 16 times! He still hasn't passed it. The average time between submissions is 3 minutes.
I wonder if he'll ever actually read the thing?
Quote from: FishProf on January 19, 2024, 01:13:09 PMMy students have to read the syllabus, watch a short vide about it, then take the syllabus quiz (25 questions) and get 100% to move on to the rest of the course material.
I used to require the same for my online courses (except a 10-question true/false quiz), but my current place says it's a no-go because we don't want to put up "barriers" to the students.
This place also just "revised" my canned course, making it much easier, because students weren't participating and grades were down. Of course they're participating now; the work barely requires them to think (and most of them don't follow the instructions and skip that part anyway).
I've got three years before I can even consider retiring, and since I seem to be unemployable elsewhere (see "three years to retirement") I guess I'll gut it out.
Quote from: fosca on January 19, 2024, 01:47:14 PMI used to require the same for my online courses (except a 10-question true/false quiz), but my current place says it's a no-go because we don't want to put up "barriers" to the students.
If an open note, repeat as often as needed, MC and T/F quiz is too high a barrier, how can they ever hope to pass the course?
If my school tried that, they'd get a big hell nope and I wouldn't teach the course again.
Side note: They have been keeping course shells alive for years since Covid (it used to be 8 weeks post grades), but I don't think they know I go in and empty out all the content. I have slight paranoia about them taking the content and paying and adjunct or admin to "run" the course without me.
Dang, that is some serious micro-managing if you are being told that passing a "did you read the syllabus" quiz is too high of a barrier.
Have these folks ever taken an online class? It's really common to have course content that unlocks only if you complete the previous step, especially if the course is more skills-based. Heck, I'm using Duolingo to learn more French and it won't unlock the next module unless you pass the previous one (or pass a tricky quiz).
This place is definitely traipsing down the garden path to Hell; I only hope it doesn't get there before I leave.
I brought in a meeting a while back up that the new version was basically a high-school level course and others agreed--not the administrators of course, but at least some of the other faculty did. But the state doesn't value education, so I'm sure we'll keep dumbing it down.
Quote from: FishProf on January 19, 2024, 01:04:46 PMQuote from: AmLitHist on January 19, 2024, 07:48:28 AM...I'm likely to have a chair not from my discipline and a dean who may have no experience in academics, i.e., someone from a CTE field).
Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy? That would explain a lot....
LOL! Career Tech Ed--but unfortunately, at our place, there are a lot of similarities with a few of those folks!
Quote from: FishProf on January 19, 2024, 02:28:29 PMSide note: They have been keeping course shells alive for years since Covid (it used to be 8 weeks post grades), but I don't think they know I go in and empty out all the content. I have slight paranoia about them taking the content and paying and adjunct or admin to "run" the course without me.
Careful with this, FishProf: FWIW, a colleague did the same content-switching on his canned online classes here. He had to go on medical leave unexpectedly last fall, and those who took over those classes from him told Admin about it, and he got in deep shit and was assigned to only F2F classes for Spring. He was "allowed" to resign, since he refused those classes. (He also was a royal jerk otherwise, but Admin didn't hesitate to make an example of him.)
Quote from: fosca on January 19, 2024, 04:30:30 PMThis place is definitely traipsing down the garden path to Hell; I only hope it doesn't get there before I leave.
I brought in a meeting a while back up that the new version was basically a high-school level course and others agreed--not the administrators of course, but at least some of the other faculty did. But the state doesn't value education, so I'm sure we'll keep dumbing it down.
We work at the same place, I see. I'm eagerly awaiting the next RIF and the buyout that precedes it. I can't afford to retire for another 4 years, but I'll jump at the severance offer and skrimp and scrape to make it work. I always say they aren't going to make me mad enough to quit before I'm ready to go--they're either going to have to fire me or buy me out.
Quote from: AmLitHist on January 20, 2024, 05:08:41 AMQuote from: FishProf on January 19, 2024, 01:04:46 PMQuote from: AmLitHist on January 19, 2024, 07:48:28 AM...I'm likely to have a chair not from my discipline and a dean who may have no experience in academics, i.e., someone from a CTE field).
Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy? That would explain a lot....
LOL! Career Tech Ed--but unfortunately, at our place, there are a lot of similarities with a few of those folks!
Quote from: FishProf on January 19, 2024, 02:28:29 PMSide note: They have been keeping course shells alive for years since Covid (it used to be 8 weeks post grades), but I don't think they know I go in and empty out all the content. I have slight paranoia about them taking the content and paying and adjunct or admin to "run" the course without me.
Careful with this, FishProf: FWIW, a colleague did the same content-switching on his canned online classes here. He had to go on medical leave unexpectedly last fall, and those who took over those classes from him told Admin about it, and he got in deep shit and was assigned to only F2F classes for Spring. He was "allowed" to resign, since he refused those classes. (He also was a royal jerk otherwise, but Admin didn't hesitate to make an example of him.)
Quote from: fosca on January 19, 2024, 04:30:30 PMThis place is definitely traipsing down the garden path to Hell; I only hope it doesn't get there before I leave.
I brought in a meeting a while back up that the new version was basically a high-school level course and others agreed--not the administrators of course, but at least some of the other faculty did. But the state doesn't value education, so I'm sure we'll keep dumbing it down.
We work at the same place, I see. I'm eagerly awaiting the next RIF and the buyout that precedes it. I can't afford to retire for another 4 years, but I'll jump at the severance offer and skrimp and scrape to make it work. I always say they aren't going to make me mad enough to quit before I'm ready to go--they're either going to have to fire me or buy me out.
I've often suspected from your posts that you are in the same state as I am. If that's the case, I wonder if you could take a buy-out and then find another job for the state that qualifies in the pension plan until you're actually ready. I'm not close enough for a buy-out, so I haven't bothered to look, but I can't say I haven't thought about options for when I get closer.
I just received an email from a student who missed the first two weeks of class because stu was on vacation. Stu informed me that stu will be attending class tomorrow. Um, no you won't because your dumbass was dropped for nonattendance. Wtf?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 21, 2024, 10:03:09 AMI just received an email from a student who missed the first two weeks of class because stu was on vacation. Stu informed me that stu will be attending class tomorrow. Um, no you won't because your dumbass was dropped for nonattendance. Wtf?
Must have been a vacation from reality.
Quote from: sinenomine on January 21, 2024, 11:14:38 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 21, 2024, 10:03:09 AMI just received an email from a student who missed the first two weeks of class because stu was on vacation. Stu informed me that stu will be attending class tomorrow. Um, no you won't because your dumbass was dropped for nonattendance. Wtf?
Must have been a vacation from reality.
Yep. The sad thing is that they will complain to admins and I 'might' have to accept this student in my class.
I am teaching two online courses of 40 students each.
We had a storm last week and part of the town lost electricity.
Both courses had discussion posts and online quizzes due at the end of the week.
In my advanced-level course, mostly full of majors, not one of the 40 failed to post in the discussion or to take the quiz.
In my lower-level course, mostly full of students who take it because they think it will be an easy gen-ed requirement, a full 16 of the 40 did not make discussion posts or take their quizzes.
When questioned, they say they had trouble in the storm. I wonder. I'm giving them all the benefit of the doubt, but I wonder if all of them really were totally prevented by the storm. It's funny that the storm missed all the advanced-level students and only hit the lower-level students.
It's just bizarre to hear about students pulling stuff like taking a vacation during what they know (or at least should know) will be the first two weeks of class. I just don't recall ever hearing about such things when I was an undergrad or grad.
I did once take two weeks out in the middle of a semester to go on a mission trip. It wasn't school-related, but it was at a church-affiliated SLAC that accepted the validity of what I was doing. The profs all worked with me, and I was able to catch up. I didn't have any classes with labs that semester to complicate things. And of course many students have missed time due to illness, family emergencies, etc. But taking a vacation in your first two weeks of class? Come on!
Yes, my CC was closed for snow last week for the first week of classes, so I simply started mine online, mostly with stuff they can do on their phones.
About 85% of the students are with the program, and the other 15% haven't even logged into the course--an overall participation rate that I'm very happy with. I'm expecting some wailing and gnashing of teeth from the minority. Should be fun.
Argh! Stop emailing to ask if you can be excused from pre-class assignments. I really do not need to know WHY* you didn't do the assignment. The entire purpose of these assignments is so you are better prepared for class.
Be an adult, take the 0, and stop asking.
*Life happens. Waiting until the last minute means you will sometimes not be able to finish things.
Quote from: fishbrains on January 22, 2024, 08:59:54 AMYes, my CC was closed for snow last week for the first week of classes, so I simply started mine online, mostly with stuff they can do on their phones.
I had to answer to a student complaint that I didn't hold class last Tuesday (class meets once a week in the evenings). The Dean's office wanted to know why I didn't give them an online assignments.
1) School was closed.
2) I can't hold class meetings when school is closed.
3) It was the first class of the semester - what would I give them?
Luckily my Chair and my Union are handling this.
A student wants to add my class FOUR weeks in to the semester. Apparently stu's advisor suggested they ask me to do it. Really? Do you think you will be successful 4 weeks into a STEM course?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 25, 2024, 05:31:30 PMA student wants to add my class FOUR weeks in to the semester. Apparently stu's advisor suggested they ask me to do it. Really? Do you think you will be successful 4 weeks into a STEM course?
Please tell me stu's advisor is not from a STEM background, and has no idea how information in general, and things like labs in particular, are very sequential and hierarchical.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 25, 2024, 05:31:30 PMA student wants to add my class FOUR weeks in to the semester. Apparently stu's advisor suggested they ask me to do it. Really? Do you think you will be successful 4 weeks into a STEM course?
Are you sure that it was the advisor who suggested the late add and not the student? How does the student expect to catch up on the four weeks of missed instruction/assignments? Wouldn't the missed four weeks automatically result in a withdrawal?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 25, 2024, 05:31:30 PMA student wants to add my class FOUR weeks in to the semester. Apparently stu's advisor suggested they ask me to do it. Really? Do you think you will be successful 4 weeks into a STEM course?
I would contact Stu's advisor and ask them if they had indeed suggested the late add, and if so, what were they thinking? If they didn't suggest it, I'd tell them that Stu was saying they did and perhaps they should have a chat with Stu about being a lying liar who lies.
Quote from: marshwiggle on January 26, 2024, 04:56:30 AMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 25, 2024, 05:31:30 PMA student wants to add my class FOUR weeks in to the semester. Apparently stu's advisor suggested they ask me to do it. Really? Do you think you will be successful 4 weeks into a STEM course?
Please tell me stu's advisor is not from a STEM background, and has no idea how information in general, and things like labs in particular, are very sequential and hierarchical.
Adding four weeks into the semester likely wouldn't work with a non-lab humanities course either. Lots of missed in-class lecture/discussion, and the student would be starting way behind on the reading. If the lectures could be caught up on video and the student made an heroic effort to catch up with the reading, maybe.
Student emailed on the last day to add classes saying they were desperate to add my seminar to fulfill the requirement for the major so they could graduate this spring. They have not taken the prereq but are "sure" they'll do fine, even having missed the first two weeks, because they love the topic and "intend to go into it in their future career". I look them up and they have NOT declared the major they say they are desperate to complete the requirements for. In fact, they have no declared major, which is incompatible with graduating this semester to say the least. I don't know what the story is there, but just no to waiving the prerequisite for that one.
Sounds like Puget has another case of a student advised by wolves.
Quote from: apl68 on January 26, 2024, 02:10:15 PMSounds like Puget has another case of a student advised by wolves.
Stu is in a student support program, so I'm actually quite certain that stu has been extensively advised on all this but is in willful denial about the advice they have been given.
At any rate they took no for an answer, and the add period has now mercifully ended, so requests to waive prerequisites portion of my teaching despair is over for the semester.
In my online Astronomy class, so many students are calling the course 'Astrology' in the discussion posts. Argh!!!!!!!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 28, 2024, 09:35:16 AMIn my online Astronomy class, so many students are calling the course 'Astrology' in the discussion posts. Argh!!!!!!!
For some reason, this reminds me of the old joke: "My teachers always said I should be an astronaut because all I did was take up space in school."
Quote from: fishbrains on January 28, 2024, 01:52:40 PMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on January 28, 2024, 09:35:16 AMIn my online Astronomy class, so many students are calling the course 'Astrology' in the discussion posts. Argh!!!!!!!
For some reason, this reminds me of the old joke: "My teachers always said I should be an astronaut because all I did was take up space in school."
Ha!
Yes, but not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up-- some people pilot the space shuttle, and others sell toy space shuttles in the gift shop.
I have so many students who misspell "psychology" as "phycology", which is the study of algae and thus in spellcheck.
Quote from: fosca on January 29, 2024, 09:26:31 AMI have so many students who misspell "psychology" as "phycology", which is the study of algae and thus in spellcheck.
Who knows that kind of cognitive and behavioral issues those algae have?
They have bi-chromal personality disorder...
One of my classes was cancelled the last due weeks due to weather stuff. I found out, today, that only four students had watched any of the lectures I posted online.
Sigh.
So, all of my students showed up on time tonight, stayed focused, completed the work early, and then stayed and talked to each other and offered a lot of support for a couple of students who were having a hard time with life and their other classes.
I mean, what the f*ck am I supposed to do with that?
Buy a lottery ticket?
Hmmm . . .
There's taking advantage of one's luck, and then there's pushing it....
The Registrar continues to reinstate a student who has NEVER been in class. Why? No idea. The student has also become belligerent with me through email. A different student just contacted me today, mentioned some personal things that stu was dealing with, and wanted to know how to make up work for the last six weeks that stu missed. Argh!!!!
Okay, I'm curious. Belligerent about what?
Is this one of those "I'm six weeks behind in five different courses, I've done zero work, I'm just now contacting my professors, and I refuse to recognize that maybe 6 hours of work per course per week multiplied by 6 weeks means I'm 180 hours behind overall. Oh yeah, and I'll be out of town over Spring Break and maybe a few days after and won't be able to do classwork then. Why won't you work with me so I can pass?" kind of emailers?
These used to be kind of fun, but now life's just too short.
Quote from: fishbrains on February 18, 2024, 07:48:09 AMOkay, I'm curious. Belligerent about what?
Is this one of those "I'm six weeks behind in five different courses, I've done zero work, I'm just now contacting my professors, and I refuse to recognize that maybe 6 hours of work per course per week multiplied by 6 weeks means I'm 180 hours behind overall. Oh yeah, and I'll be out of town over Spring Break and maybe a few days after and won't be able to do classwork then. Why won't you work with me so I can pass?" kind of emailers?
These used to be kind of fun, but now life's just too short.
Yep. Basically this. The funny thing is that the student emailed me to say that stu 'would understand' if I wouldn't let them back into the course. After I said 'no', the student started spouting, 'but I've been doing the work from home and I only missed one assignment. Stu was also getting pretty nasty. Blah blah blah.' And to that I say bullshit because the student missed a test, 3 quizzes and 3 homeworks.
Yes, life is too short to deal with the bullshit. These students are adults and need to learn to take responsibility for their actions. If life is screwing you over such that you cannot come to class for 6 or 7 weeks, then maybe you should take a break, figure out your life and then re enroll in classes.
We have so many dual-enrolled/early college students these days (a way to generate income, whether they have any hope of actually learning anything or not), I've reinstated my hard-core "no cell phone/electronics" policy. They know that all the doo-dads are required to be turned off and put away from the time they walk into class until they leave. Of course, a lot of these little 16- and 17-year-old brains think this surely can't apply to them. I routinely have to say, "Put the cell phones away" at least once in every class.
One guy--who's already flunked Comp I three times, and is headed for his fourth--has shown up in only 2 class meetings, both times alternating between intently staring at his crotch and messing with his phone (which I can clearly see under the table, as he's right in my line of sight) or sleeping. One day I called him out by name: "Jay, turn the phone OFF and put it away, or pack your things and leave class." He hesitated a minute, finishing a text (I presume), then said, "Oh, that's OK. I'm finished."
It took all I could do to not say, "Oh thank GOD, I'm SO TERRIBLY sorry I interrupted you."
(He hasn't been back since. Maybe I hurt his little feelings? I hope so. No matter--I checked his transcript, and he's failed a full load of classes every semester for the past 4 terms, so it looks like his record will remain intact.)
Quote from: AmLitHist on February 19, 2024, 07:25:38 AMI've reinstated my hard-core "no cell phone/electronics" policy.
I had that policy, but then my school instituted two factor authentication so even to log into the CMS, I (and my students) need their phones.
Grrr.
Random comments:
1) what happeneth when/if electronics offenders disobey commands to disengage with gizmos?
2) this sort of thing is more or less a residuum of the vastly different attitudes wrt stuff like this seen in most American hss nowadays, esp when helo parents are around. And the pandemic exacerbated these issues tremendously.
Quote from: FishProf on February 19, 2024, 09:26:50 AMQuote from: AmLitHist on February 19, 2024, 07:25:38 AMI've reinstated my hard-core "no cell phone/electronics" policy.
I had that policy, but then my school instituted two factor authentication so even to log into the CMS, I (and my students) need their phones.
Grrr.
Phones have gotten to be for most people what wands are for the wizards in the Harry Potter world--something they simply have to have to carry out their daily lives. You just can't separate people from them. We've seen this in the library environment. When mobile phones first became common, libraries tried to make people turn them off and avoid using them whenever they were at the library so as not to be disruptive. But we've long since reached a point where they need them to do what they've come here to do.
I was reminded of that only this morning when I saw a patron on a library computer trying to take care of some business of some sort. He was on the phone with a customer support person from the company he was dealing with, trying to figure out how to make their web site work. We also routinely have to get content from people's phones into our network so that they can perform printing, photocopy, or fax work that they have to do. Which is awkward since cell reception is spotty in much of our metal-roofed building.
The sheer number of students who use AI, get a zero, then email me to say I gave them no feedback is staggering. If you don't even know how to check anything other than the gradebook, how do you expect to trick me into believing you wrote the essay?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2024, 12:43:51 PMThe sheer number of students who use AI, get a zero, then email me to say I gave them no feedback is staggering. If you don't even know how to check anything other than the gradebook, how do you expect to trick me into believing you wrote the essay?
When students come to office hours and say, "I don't understand what I did wrong," I make them, right then and there, open up the Canvas app on their phones, look at the marked-up documents (.pdfs), read out loud to me what I wrote in the comments on the rubric, and only after they do that, I ask if they have any more questions or would like more detailed feedback. Usually they don't, and act surprised that the feedback actually exists. Even though I show them in class how to access that information, it seems all they ever do is look at the number and start to whinge when they don't see 10/10.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on February 26, 2024, 12:43:51 PMThe sheer number of students who use AI, get a zero, then email me to say I gave them no feedback is staggering. If you don't even know how to check anything other than the gradebook, how do you expect to trick me into believing you wrote the essay?
I've been getting a lot of "I answered A on this question and you counted it wrong, but My Friend answered A and she got it right" type questions. I have to point out that Friend is correct because her question asks about Henry, while Student's question asks about Billy. Yes, there's multiple versions of the quiz. Make sure to read the question carefully.
After three series of back-and-forth emails trying to get a student to send me her doctor's note excusing her from a major exam, I finally get sent something.
It's a Microsoft Word document.
Unsigned by the doctor.
With no dates written on it. Anywhere. No date of office visit. No dates for being excused from class.
I do not believe that this is a real doctor's note. I do not believe that any healthcare provider would be so half-$%^ about it, not sign it, and send it out to me as Microsoft Word file.
I have asked to have a new doctor's note sent to me that is both signed by the doctor and dated for both the date of the office visit and dated for the days excusing the student from class.
Is there anything else that I should be asking for?
I have colleagues who have called the doctors office directly to confirm in these kind of cases. It's not a HIPA violation to ask if they wrote the note.
Quote from: Aster on February 29, 2024, 09:33:23 AMAfter three series of back-and-forth emails trying to get a student to send me her doctor's note excusing her from a major exam, I finally get sent something.
It's a Microsoft Word document.
Unsigned by the doctor.
With no dates written on it. Anywhere. No date of office visit. No dates for being excused from class.
I do not believe that this is a real doctor's note. I do not believe that any healthcare provider would be so half-$%^ about it, not sign it, and send it out to me as Microsoft Word file.
I have asked to have a new doctor's note sent to me that is both signed by the doctor and dated for both the date of the office visit and dated for the days excusing the student from class.
Is there anything else that I should be asking for?
You might ask the student what days they are available for a makeup exam, if that's allowed in your course policies.
If the student really was sick (doubtful), then they will be glad you gave the a break. If the student was hoping to get out of the exam, then you are being very nice by allowing them to still take it & not earn a 0.
If the student has fabricated a medical note, you would have to decide whether or not to report them to your conduct board.
Quote from: the_geneticist on February 29, 2024, 10:57:10 AMQuote from: Aster on February 29, 2024, 09:33:23 AMAfter three series of back-and-forth emails trying to get a student to send me her doctor's note excusing her from a major exam, I finally get sent something.
It's a Microsoft Word document.
Unsigned by the doctor.
With no dates written on it. Anywhere. No date of office visit. No dates for being excused from class.
I do not believe that this is a real doctor's note. I do not believe that any healthcare provider would be so half-$%^ about it, not sign it, and send it out to me as Microsoft Word file.
I have asked to have a new doctor's note sent to me that is both signed by the doctor and dated for both the date of the office visit and dated for the days excusing the student from class.
Is there anything else that I should be asking for?
You might ask the student what days they are available for a makeup exam, if that's allowed in your course policies.
If the student really was sick (doubtful), then they will be glad you gave the a break. If the student was hoping to get out of the exam, then you are being very nice by allowing them to still take it & not earn a 0.
If the student has fabricated a medical note, you would have to decide whether or not to report them to your conduct board.
I have had students say they contracted covid right before an exam. Note, here we are not allowed to ask for any kind of proof or anything when it comes to "covid"--break a leg and we could ask for a doctor's note though. Hmmmm...
We haven't asked for doctors notes since the swine flu, back in 2009? We didn't want sick students, who should be resting and recovering, going to health service and infecting others. Plus, here (Canada) doctors notes aren't covered by provincial health care, so you have to pay out of pocket for them, and many students can't afford it. We trust our students. Now, with COVID, it's even more important to allow COVID positive students to stay home and recover, and not infect others, since COVID can potentially damage almost every body system, including the heart and brain.
The ones who are genuinely ill get time to recover and catch up. Those that lie end up doing poorly, even with extra time or deferred exams. I'd rather trust my students than have to determine if their excuse is valid or their documentation correct.
I benefited from profs who trusted me when I said I had to be in hospital during finals, and profs either let me take the exam early, late, or in one case just gave me the class average (small, fourth year class, ten students in total). So I treat students how I was treated.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 29, 2024, 10:24:25 AMI have colleagues who have called the doctors office directly to confirm in these kind of cases. It's not a HIPA violation to ask if they wrote the note.
It turned out that the "doctor's visit" was a tele-health meeting with someone on the other side of North America. And the doctor apparently was too lazy to write a proper note.
So the student called her up again for a second tele-health session, and the doctor re-submitted a proper note.
The tele-health industry does not impress me.
Quote from: mythbuster on February 29, 2024, 10:24:25 AMI have colleagues who have called the doctors office directly to confirm in these kind of cases. It's not a HIPA violation to ask if they wrote the note.
Why, in 2024, are people still imposing these policies? They do nothing but create more work for instructors and serve no pedagogical purpose.
Quote from: spork on March 02, 2024, 11:51:04 PMQuote from: mythbuster on February 29, 2024, 10:24:25 AMI have colleagues who have called the doctors office directly to confirm in these kind of cases. It's not a HIPA violation to ask if they wrote the note.
Why, in 2024, are people still imposing these policies? They do nothing but create more work for instructors and serve no pedagogical purpose.
Word. Running down everything that could be a lie is just not worth my time. If grandma died (again) I'm happy to consider that the old darlin' had a resurrection from the dead before she carked it a second time.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 01, 2024, 03:18:37 PMWe haven't asked for doctors notes since the swine flu, back in 2009? We didn't want sick students, who should be resting and recovering, going to health service and infecting others. Plus, here (Canada) doctors notes aren't covered by provincial health care, so you have to pay out of pocket for them, and many students can't afford it. We trust our students. Now, with COVID, it's even more important to allow COVID positive students to stay home and recover, and not infect others, since COVID can potentially damage almost every body system, including the heart and brain.
The ones who are genuinely ill get time to recover and catch up. Those that lie end up doing poorly, even with extra time or deferred exams. I'd rather trust my students than have to determine if their excuse is valid or their documentation correct.
I benefited from profs who trusted me when I said I had to be in hospital during finals, and profs either let me take the exam early, late, or in one case just gave me the class average (small, fourth year class, ten students in total). So I treat students how I was treated.
I honestly couldn't care less if students come to class or not, they are adults and can make their own decisions (even in programs with mandatory attendance-I do not check). But if they miss an exam it is a MAJOR hassle for everyone--thus the emphasis that you can only miss an exam for extraordinary circumstances--not just because you didn't feel like showing up that day. Obviously if you are sick, you are sick, and no one wants you around them.
Quote from: bio-nonymous on March 05, 2024, 07:57:54 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on March 01, 2024, 03:18:37 PMWe haven't asked for doctors notes since the swine flu, back in 2009? We didn't want sick students, who should be resting and recovering, going to health service and infecting others. Plus, here (Canada) doctors notes aren't covered by provincial health care, so you have to pay out of pocket for them, and many students can't afford it. We trust our students. Now, with COVID, it's even more important to allow COVID positive students to stay home and recover, and not infect others, since COVID can potentially damage almost every body system, including the heart and brain.
The ones who are genuinely ill get time to recover and catch up. Those that lie end up doing poorly, even with extra time or deferred exams. I'd rather trust my students than have to determine if their excuse is valid or their documentation correct.
I benefited from profs who trusted me when I said I had to be in hospital during finals, and profs either let me take the exam early, late, or in one case just gave me the class average (small, fourth year class, ten students in total). So I treat students how I was treated.
I honestly couldn't care less if students come to class or not, they are adults and can make their own decisions (even in programs with mandatory attendance-I do not check). But if they miss an exam it is a MAJOR hassle for everyone--thus the emphasis that you can only miss an exam for extraordinary circumstances--not just because you didn't feel like showing up that day. Obviously if you are sick, you are sick, and no one wants you around them.
Not a hassle anywhere I've been. Miss a midterm? The lowest is dropped, so if you miss one, that's your dropped mark. If you miss more than one, that's what the program counsellor is for, instructors don't have to deal with it. Miss a final? Well, some finals are the same as midterms, so again, it gets dropped if you haven't missed any others. If you have or if the final is worth more, deferred exams have been a thing since at least the 1990s, and maybe earlier. Program counsellors take care of all of this. The most an instructor might have to do is create the deferred exam, but, at least where I'm a postdoc, there are plenty of previous exams to draw upon. Even my postdoc supervisor doesn't have to write exams from scratch. Even updating things to reflect new knowledge doesn't take long in my experience. Maybe it is different in the U.S. or at different universities, but for us, it's not a problem.
From reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 05, 2024, 03:32:59 PMFrom reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
For actual psychological counseling, we'd refer to the counseling center, but that has nothing to do with such academic maters as rescheduling exams. There are staff academic advisors that can be looped in when students are really struggling academically, but again, they aren't involved in day to day course policy and practice issues like this.
I think you'll find if you become a faculty member that a great deal of your job involves things you were never formally trained to do, especially if you are running a lab, which is a lot like running a small business in many ways. If you are a postdoc in a lab field, do yourself a favor and ask your PI to go through some of those things (e.g., budgeting, HR tasks, etc, etc.) with you so you're prepared.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 05, 2024, 03:32:59 PMFrom reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
So what exactly does a program counselor do? It doesn't sound like they do psychological counseling. Are they more like academic advisors? Helping students create a manageable workload/reschedule exams/interface with professors if they have a major life event?
Quote from: permanent imposter on March 07, 2024, 07:40:43 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on March 05, 2024, 03:32:59 PMFrom reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
So what exactly does a program counselor do? It doesn't sound like they do psychological counseling. Are they more like academic advisors? Helping students create a manageable workload/reschedule exams/interface with professors if they have a major life event?
They advise students, especially transfer students or students who aren't following the typical path, on what courses to take. They advocate for students with accommodations, especially if the accommodations are not just extra time for assignments or exams. They counsel students on choosing the right courses for future careers, especially with regards to electives and restricted electives (take x number of courses from this list of y). They provide career counselling for majors in the department. They manage the deferred exam schedule for faculty and students. They help students dealing with life stuff, counselling on whether it is better to skip a semester or whether accommodations are enough to help them succeed. They deal with temporary accommodations (a sprained wrist, a broken bone) - things that accessibility services doesn't deal with because they aren't something that endures. They provide advice on potential alternate courses, if someone isn't following the standard progression, for whatever reason. They advise students on the courses that are necessary to qualify for further requirements to obtain a professional designation. They are often the first line for students in distress, who might not need counselling services, but who need reassurance that one B isn't going to condemn them for life, or to help them figure out their course plan if they failed a course, and what options are available if that course is a prerequisite, an elective, a restricted elective, etc. They, of course, refer to counselling services when there is clearly something going on. They act as an intermediary between counselling services and professors/lecturers when required or between accessibility services and profs/lecturers when required. They help students choose between different course options. Mine came with me to talk about the accommodations I needed in a certain course with a professor, after I had suffered a concussion, to safeguard my health while ensuring I met all of the course's requirements. They do a lot! I certainly don't expect profs to do all that.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 08, 2024, 04:32:47 PMQuote from: permanent imposter on March 07, 2024, 07:40:43 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on March 05, 2024, 03:32:59 PMFrom reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
So what exactly does a program counselor do? It doesn't sound like they do psychological counseling. Are they more like academic advisors? Helping students create a manageable workload/reschedule exams/interface with professors if they have a major life event?
They advise students, especially transfer students or students who aren't following the typical path, on what courses to take. They advocate for students with accommodations, especially if the accommodations are not just extra time for assignments or exams. They counsel students on choosing the right courses for future careers, especially with regards to electives and restricted electives (take x number of courses from this list of y). They provide career counselling for majors in the department. They manage the deferred exam schedule for faculty and students. They help students dealing with life stuff, counselling on whether it is better to skip a semester or whether accommodations are enough to help them succeed. They deal with temporary accommodations (a sprained wrist, a broken bone) - things that accessibility services doesn't deal with because they aren't something that endures. They provide advice on potential alternate courses, if someone isn't following the standard progression, for whatever reason. They advise students on the courses that are necessary to qualify for further requirements to obtain a professional designation. They are often the first line for students in distress, who might not need counselling services, but who need reassurance that one B isn't going to condemn them for life, or to help them figure out their course plan if they failed a course, and what options are available if that course is a prerequisite, an elective, a restricted elective, etc. They, of course, refer to counselling services when there is clearly something going on. They act as an intermediary between counselling services and professors/lecturers when required or between accessibility services and profs/lecturers when required. They help students choose between different course options. Mine came with me to talk about the accommodations I needed in a certain course with a professor, after I had suffered a concussion, to safeguard my health while ensuring I met all of the course's requirements. They do a lot! I certainly don't expect profs to do all that.
How many of these would there be for a department, faculty, or whatever? It seems like there would have to be
a lot of them to deal with all those kinds of things.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 09, 2024, 08:23:29 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on March 08, 2024, 04:32:47 PMQuote from: permanent imposter on March 07, 2024, 07:40:43 AMQuote from: MarathonRunner on March 05, 2024, 03:32:59 PMFrom reading here, it seems a lot of universities don't have professional program counsellors, and expect faculty members to do that work. In that case, I can see it would be a hassle for the prof/instructor, if they have to not only do the instructor/prof job, but also the program counsellor's job. But how do faculty outside of social work or clinical psychology do that properly? Other fields aren't trained in counselling.
So what exactly does a program counselor do? It doesn't sound like they do psychological counseling. Are they more like academic advisors? Helping students create a manageable workload/reschedule exams/interface with professors if they have a major life event?
They advise students, especially transfer students or students who aren't following the typical path, on what courses to take. They advocate for students with accommodations, especially if the accommodations are not just extra time for assignments or exams. They counsel students on choosing the right courses for future careers, especially with regards to electives and restricted electives (take x number of courses from this list of y). They provide career counselling for majors in the department. They manage the deferred exam schedule for faculty and students. They help students dealing with life stuff, counselling on whether it is better to skip a semester or whether accommodations are enough to help them succeed. They deal with temporary accommodations (a sprained wrist, a broken bone) - things that accessibility services doesn't deal with because they aren't something that endures. They provide advice on potential alternate courses, if someone isn't following the standard progression, for whatever reason. They advise students on the courses that are necessary to qualify for further requirements to obtain a professional designation. They are often the first line for students in distress, who might not need counselling services, but who need reassurance that one B isn't going to condemn them for life, or to help them figure out their course plan if they failed a course, and what options are available if that course is a prerequisite, an elective, a restricted elective, etc. They, of course, refer to counselling services when there is clearly something going on. They act as an intermediary between counselling services and professors/lecturers when required or between accessibility services and profs/lecturers when required. They help students choose between different course options. Mine came with me to talk about the accommodations I needed in a certain course with a professor, after I had suffered a concussion, to safeguard my health while ensuring I met all of the course's requirements. They do a lot! I certainly don't expect profs to do all that.
How many of these would there be for a department, faculty, or whatever? It seems like there would have to be a lot of them to deal with all those kinds of things.
At my institution, professors do almost none of these things. Most of these responsibilities would be divided among three different offices: advising, Office of Disability Services, and the Dean of Students. The only tasks in this list that professors would engage in is advising of upper level students within their respective majors and making decisions regarding acceptable substitutions to required courses in the major. The latter responsibility would normally fall to the department chair.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 09, 2024, 08:23:29 AMHow many of these would there be for a department, faculty, or whatever? It seems like there would have to be a lot of them to deal with all those kinds of things.
For small programs, one per major. For large programs (i.e. biological sciences), between four and six, depending on how many students are enrolled in the major.
Quote from: Chemystery on March 09, 2024, 10:10:06 AMAt my institution, professors do almost none of these things. Most of these responsibilities would be divided among three different offices: advising, Office of Disability Services, and the Dean of Students. The only tasks in this list that professors would engage in is advising of upper level students within their respective majors and making decisions regarding acceptable substitutions to required courses in the major. The latter responsibility would normally fall to the department chair.
None of the Canadian universities I've attended (or worked at) have a "Dean of Students." I hear about that position all the time here, but that position doesn't exist at any of the four Canadian universities where I've been a student or postdoc. That's why we have program advisors - I guess they do a lot of the work that a Dean of Students does, but on a smaller level (i.e. only for a given program or major)? We also have accessibility services, and they handle accommodations, but only for conditions that are not transitory. For shorter-term things that are expected to heal or be resolved within a semester, the program advisor handles those.
Quote from: MarathonRunner on March 09, 2024, 11:34:55 AMQuote from: marshwiggle on March 09, 2024, 08:23:29 AMHow many of these would there be for a department, faculty, or whatever? It seems like there would have to be a lot of them to deal with all those kinds of things.
For small programs, one per major. For large programs (i.e. biological sciences), between four and six, depending on how many students are enrolled in the major.
That is a lot, if they're full-time positions. (By contrast, a departmental academic advisor here typically gets a single course relief, so it amounts to about 1/5 of a faculty position for one program.)
Mid-term exam today (held in lab so there is plenty of time).
Lecture this morning was a review session. 1/3 of class didn't show, and they are now in various phases of whining, anger, or despair about what they "didn't know would be on the test".
There is nothing on the test they haven't been warned about, and we covered enough in the review today to pass. Why didn't you come to a review session DURING your regularly scheduled class time?
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Here's a first-- Student plagiarized the freaking example outline I gave them! Just flat out paraphrased the example, which was on a totally different topic and supposed to just give them an idea of how to do a detailed outline, and substituted in her topic key words in places. References do not fit the outline at all of course, since the plagiarized outline is not on her topic. Did she think I wouldn't notice? I, who posted that very example and am quite familiar with it? Just boggled.
Bonus points- it was due by the start of class and she submitted it during class.
And this was a student who begged me to be a reference for a transfer application with 10 days notice and I foolishly agreed. Now that short but vaguely positive letter has already been submitted, and she pulls this.
Since she's a sophomore and an international student and may just need some education here, I've decided to give her a zero and a talking to rather than report her to the conduct board. But you better bet her final paper is going to get extra special plagiarism scrutiny (they already go through Turnitin).
Couldn't you send along a codicil to the transfer school explaining, ahem, these developments?
A student and her parent asked me point blank which question bank I used for tests and why I used time and navigation restrictions for the online quizzes. Uh, WTF? Either these two are the biggest Bozos ever to cross my office threshold, or they think I'm the biggest Bozo on campus. How about my job as a professor is assessing your grasp of the subject matter not aiding in your cheating scheme? Damn, just damn.
QuoteSince she's a sophomore and an international student and may just need some education here, I've decided to give her a zero and a talking to rather than report her to the conduct board. But you better bet her final paper is going to get extra special plagiarism scrutiny (they already go through Turnitin).
International students need to be held to the same standards as the rest of the class. Stu has probably pulled this stunt in other courses, and gotten away with it because of the "woe is me, I'll lose my visa if I fail the course" excuse.
Quote from: Antiphon1 on March 16, 2024, 09:58:54 PMA student and her parent asked me point blank which question bank I used for tests and why I used time and navigation restrictions for the online quizzes. Uh, WTF? Either these two are the biggest Bozos ever to cross my office threshold, or they think I'm the biggest Bozo on campus. How about my job as a professor is assessing your grasp of the subject matter not aiding in your cheating scheme? Damn, just damn.
Holy crap! That's audacious!
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on March 17, 2024, 01:54:43 PMQuote from: Antiphon1 on March 16, 2024, 09:58:54 PMA student and her parent asked me point blank which question bank I used for tests and why I used time and navigation restrictions for the online quizzes. Uh, WTF? Either these two are the biggest Bozos ever to cross my office threshold, or they think I'm the biggest Bozo on campus. How about my job as a professor is assessing your grasp of the subject matter not aiding in your cheating scheme? Damn, just damn.
Holy crap! That's audacious!
Reminds me of the resource services person at our largest local employer who once asked a group of new hires in orientation what questions they had regarding their benefits. One asked how long he would have to work before he would be eligible to collect unemployment. He said of the new hire, "Well, the screening didn't work too well in your case, did it?"
Quote from: Puget on March 15, 2024, 01:11:43 PMHere's a first-- Student plagiarized the freaking example outline I gave them! Just flat out paraphrased the example, which was on a totally different topic and supposed to just give them an idea of how to do a detailed outline, and substituted in her topic key words in places. References do not fit the outline at all of course, since the plagiarized outline is not on her topic. Did she think I wouldn't notice? I, who posted that very example and am quite familiar with it? Just boggled.
Bonus points- it was due by the start of class and she submitted it during class.
And this was a student who begged me to be a reference for a transfer application with 10 days notice and I foolishly agreed. Now that short but vaguely positive letter has already been submitted, and she pulls this.
Since she's a sophomore and an international student and may just need some education here, I've decided to give her a zero and a talking to rather than report her to the conduct board. But you better bet her final paper is going to get extra special plagiarism scrutiny (they already go through Turnitin).
Update: At my demand, Stu met with me during office hours today.It went about how you'd expect--
Stu explained she thought she was supposed to closely adhere to to example and she only paraphrased and copied the structure, and that she didn't know that would be considered plagiarism because it was not a published source (?!). I pointed out that the example was on a completely different topic so the resulting outline made no sense, and asked what her process was for making the outline based on her sources -- blank staring and silence ensued. I asked if she had actually read the sources in her bibliography. She claimed yes. I asked again how she had used them to create the outline, more blank staring and silence.
So I hammered into her what constitutes plagiarism and told her she's on probation-- I'm going to have extra scrutiny on her paper because this is a serious violation and she's lost my trust. I won't turn her in to the conduct board now, but if I see one failure to cite properly or any copying or find-replace paraphrasing or signs of AI use in her final paper I'll report it.
I'm not convinced she's actually capable of writing her own paper at this point, since she's shown no evidence that she's done any of her own work on it so far. I suggest she go to the writing center and meet with me regularly. We'll see -- I just hope I don't have to write her up at the end of the semester, because then it becomes a huge time suck for me.
At least she didn't cry in my office, so that's something.
My grader is driving me to despair. A couple days before an exam, he marked a bunch of homeworks correct even though many students showed deep flaws in understanding. Great, now they think they're ready for the exam. I'm trying to get the grader to write more useful feedback on the homework, but it's been like arguing with a wall.
1) "Some professors don't want me to write feedback since they want the students to think for themselves about what they did wrong."
Dude, I asked you a month ago to give more feedback.
2) "Then I'd have to follow the students' arguments and see where they're wrong."
Um, yes, that's why I have you grading instead of a robot grading.
3) "It's hard to write feedback in the CMS."
You're the one who wanted to grade in the CMS. I offered to collect hard copy assignments, but you didn't want them.
Quote from: Liquidambar on March 18, 2024, 06:50:41 PM3) "It's hard to write feedback in the CMS."
You're the one who wanted to grade in the CMS. I offered to collect hard copy assignments, but you didn't want them.
You and your grader obviously disagree on the "bug or feature" question about this.
/Rant_On
Paraphrasing:
STU speaking to me about their required for graduation research project (just back from a clinical--they work <8hrs actual in the clinic and that is it, which is a much smaller workload than during academic sessions averaging 17 grad credits):
"I didn't have time to do anything for you during my clinical."
Me (slightly blowing my top): "The work is not for me, it is your work required for you to graduate. I could do this work myself easier, but it is not my work, it is yours."
They just needed to finish an abstract (due around NOW!)by doing a couple hours of data analysis...
:( UGG!
Whether required or not, I totally understand that they are not interested in research--but they are not doing me any favors here!
/Rant_Over
I'm going to half to remind my students in the future that writing a paper and only putting in quotation marks/citations/references is a quick way to a plagiarism charge. Where on earth did they get the idea that it's acceptable to write that way? I've had several students use this as their excuse for plagiarizing this semester, including one who's a junior. I swear if this job kills me I'm going to haunt any teachers/professors who taught this/let it happen, plus any students who are lying to me (although given my two-decade history of teaching in the American South, I suspect they're not--the schools are Not Well Here, and I'm sure letting things slide during the pandemic made it worse).
Sorry; lots of mistakes and I can't edit it.
I'm going to have to remind my students in the future that writing a paper and only putting in quotation marks/citations/references when they're done writing it is a quick way to a plagiarism charge. Where on earth did they get the idea that it's acceptable to write that way? I've had several students use this as their excuse for plagiarizing this semester, including one who's a junior. I swear if this job kills me I'm going to haunt any teachers/professors who taught this/let it happen, plus any students who are lying to me (although given my two-decade history of teaching in the American South, I suspect they're not--the schools are Not Well Here, and I'm sure letting things slide during the pandemic made it worse).
Fosca, pls clarify your point here-- what exactly is it that your students are doing that you think is plagiarism, but they do not, and how would they have to fix it?
Quote from: fosca on March 20, 2024, 06:43:59 PMSorry; lots of mistakes and I can't edit it.
I'm going to have to remind my students in the future that writing a paper and only putting in quotation marks/citations/references when they're done writing it is a quick way to a plagiarism charge. Where on earth did they get the idea that it's acceptable to write that way? I've had several students use this as their excuse for plagiarizing this semester, including one who's a junior. I swear if this job kills me I'm going to haunt any teachers/professors who taught this/let it happen, plus any students who are lying to me (although given my two-decade history of teaching in the American South, I suspect they're not--the schools are Not Well Here, and I'm sure letting things slide during the pandemic made it worse).
Lots of the cases of big shot professionals getting accused of plagiarism get defended on the grounds of "mistakenly" having left out quotation marks, citations, etc. Since these people got as far as they did, and people defend them on these charges, clearly there are lots of situations when it's an apparently acceptable strategy.
TL;DR - Students are doing what others have gotten away with, (and essentially gotten
rewarded for),for a long time.
Quote from: marshwiggle on March 21, 2024, 05:45:58 AMQuote from: fosca on March 20, 2024, 06:43:59 PMSorry; lots of mistakes and I can't edit it.
I'm going to have to remind my students in the future that writing a paper and only putting in quotation marks/citations/references when they're done writing it is a quick way to a plagiarism charge. Where on earth did they get the idea that it's acceptable to write that way? I've had several students use this as their excuse for plagiarizing this semester, including one who's a junior. I swear if this job kills me I'm going to haunt any teachers/professors who taught this/let it happen, plus any students who are lying to me (although given my two-decade history of teaching in the American South, I suspect they're not--the schools are Not Well Here, and I'm sure letting things slide during the pandemic made it worse).
Lots of the cases of big shot professionals getting accused of plagiarism get defended on the grounds of "mistakenly" having left out quotation marks, citations, etc. Since these people got as far as they did, and people defend them on these charges, clearly there are lots of situations when it's an apparently acceptable strategy.
TL;DR - Students are doing what others have gotten away with, (and essentially gotten rewarded for),for a long time.
In a similar vein, I had a blatant plagiarizer from last fall who just got her earned F (for 2 x plagiarizing) overturned by my dean. Nary a citation, attribution, or WC entry at all in the rough draft (after we'd spent a month covering MLA and plagiarism avoidance), so I marked the hell out of it, pointed to the syllabus policy that the first plagiarism earns a zero, and any subsequent instances earn an F in the course--and then she submits the same damned paper, complete with verbatim lifts and no documentation but with a few added quotation marks thrown in. So she earned the F for the class.
Student and mom whined to my chair, who upheld my position; they then went to the dean, who changed the grade to a
C, because the rough draft should have been "a learning experience." Hell, no--there were 5 separate detailed assignments (all low stakes) that were learning experiences, and the student didn't turn ANY of them in. Not my problem--and it sure as hell doesn't give her a pass to say, "But I didn't know" and get out of the charges and the F.
(I've raised plenty of hell over the years over asinine admin decisions, but I've never filed a formal grievance on one. This one is getting grieved through my union.)
There needs to be some pushback over an administrative decision that egregious. If admins are in the habit of undercutting the instructors that badly, then the school is failing its students.
AmLiHist- your story is why I refuse to call then drafts anymore. My writing in science class is similar in scaffolding to yours. So I now call it the "first submission". I've now made this first submission grade worth more than the revision and I warn, warn, warn them (including in the syllabus) not to submit an incomplete draft or they will fail. Not all get the message, but at least then my ass is covered if it goes to appeal.
I'm stealing that, Mythbuster. Shall I cite you in my syllabus? :-)
I also started just numbering scaffolded assignments/drafts rather than calling them a draft of anything: Scaffolding Assignment #1, Scaffolding Assignment #2, etc. Thus, they are a graded assignment on their own merit and should be treated as such.
I am also banging my head because I spent all day yesterday documenting plagiarism in a graduate level course, and then was told that I can't assign a 0 for the papers--I have to grade the parts per the rubric that do not include plagiarized material. So, the paper grades are still failing, but I don't think the message is as strong as it needs to be.
Quote from: kaysixteen on March 20, 2024, 09:22:08 PMFosca, pls clarify your point here-- what exactly is it that your students are doing that you think is plagiarism, but they do not, and how would they have to fix it?
Students are copying word-for-word or taking information from outside sources with no quotation marks, citations, or references in their work. When I point out that's academic dishonesty they say "Oh, sorry, I write first and then go back and put the quotes and stuff in last, and I must've forgot because I had so much else to do. I'll redo it now."
It's not so much that they think it's not plagiarism, but they think because it's an accident or a mistake that it won't count against them and they can just redo it with no penalty. And either no one has caught it before, no one has told them it's a bad idea, or they think that saying that will prevent them from the consequences of handing in college work that is plagiarized--I've had at least two students use that this semester alone.
Or, what Marshwiggle said.
I did just report a student who, much like AmLitHist's student, was given feedback on their lack of proper quotation/citation/reference, but when they handed in work that had the structure and the phrasing and the definitions directly from a specific outside source with no quotation/citation/reference, they tried to play the "I'm just teaching myself and I didn't know!" card. Oh, did I mention they had also watched a video on proper paraphrasing and citation and wrote a couple of paragraphs on what they learned? Their appeal was denied, so a happier ending.
I have a new TA for my class who seems to be suffering from "main character syndrome".
He has not taught this class before.
He has never taught any classes before.
He hasn't even read the protocol for the lab for today.
But he is happily giving his opinion on how the lab could be taught differently, trying to give instructions to the other TAs, etc.
The experienced folks are all too nice to just thump him upside the head with the lab manual.
I think I'm going to be repeating "what does it say in the protocol?" over and over with him.
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 05, 2024, 03:45:48 PMI have a new TA for my class who seems to be suffering from "main character syndrome".
He has not taught this class before.
He has never taught any classes before.
He hasn't even read the protocol for the lab for today.
But he is happily giving his opinion on how the lab could be taught differently, trying to give instructions to the other TAs, etc.
The experienced folks are all too nice to just thump him upside the head with the lab manual.
I think I'm going to be repeating "what does it say in the protocol?" over and over with him.
I think I could write a book about this new TA. As in a "don't be this guy"guidebook.
He's confidently wrong about so many things.
And he's constantly asking me questions about trivial things related to his research. Why? My guess is he's trying to feel good about himself if he finds something I don't know. Joke's on him - my postdoc was in his research field.
I'm down to 3 people still enrolled in my developmental Comp I co-req class (started at 8). Only 2 of them have a chance at passing the Comp I.
Neither of those 2 showed up to class yesterday.
On the other hand, a woman who dropped the class 2+ weeks ago did show up, so I guess there's that. (I sent her home and went to my office to hang out until the Comp I class started later in the morning.)
Quote from: AmLitHist on April 17, 2024, 06:08:47 AMI'm down to 3 people still enrolled in my developmental Comp I co-req class (started at 8). Only 2 of them have a chance at passing the Comp I.
Neither of those 2 showed up to class yesterday.
On the other hand, a woman who dropped the class 2+ weeks ago did show up, so I guess there's that. (I sent her home and went to my office to hang out until the Comp I class started later in the morning.)
I've felt that pain. A super-small co-req course is just another form of walking death. Sometimes a semester just can't end too soon.
Quote from: fishbrains on April 17, 2024, 08:16:36 AMQuote from: AmLitHist on April 17, 2024, 06:08:47 AMI'm down to 3 people still enrolled in my developmental Comp I co-req class (started at 8). Only 2 of them have a chance at passing the Comp I.
Neither of those 2 showed up to class yesterday.
On the other hand, a woman who dropped the class 2+ weeks ago did show up, so I guess there's that. (I sent her home and went to my office to hang out until the Comp I class started later in the morning.)
I've felt that pain. A super-small co-req course is just another form of walking death. Sometimes a semester just can't end too soon.
Ugh! I think that teaching evaluations should be entirely optional for a class that small. No way to get any useful feedback if the students aren't actually going to class and/or have no chance of passing.
Not really a vent, more an observation.
Giving exams in for classes, I can be confident that some students will finish the exam and leave before other students even turn up to take the exam.
It generally means that the classes are not well prepared for the exams.
Quote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:10:55 AMGiving exams in for classes, I can be confident that some students will finish the exam and leave before other students even turn up to take the exam.
I don't allow that. Once someone leaves, no one else can start.
Quote from: FishProf on April 25, 2024, 08:26:47 AMQuote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:10:55 AMGiving exams in for classes, I can be confident that some students will finish the exam and leave before other students even turn up to take the exam.
I don't allow that. Once someone leaves, no one else can start.
I admire the hardassity of the policy.
Quote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:29:15 AMI admire the hardassity of the policy.
I don't see it as hardassity (but I will accept the label for myself), the exam is
compromised once someone leaves.
Quote from: FishProf on April 25, 2024, 08:31:47 AMQuote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:29:15 AMI admire the hardassity of the policy.
I don't see it as hardassity (but I will accept the label for myself), the exam is compromised once someone leaves.
Well, for the exams this semester I gave them the questions 2 weeks previous. Many still hardly write anything or get it mostly wrong.
Quote from: FishProf on April 25, 2024, 08:31:47 AMQuote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:29:15 AMI admire the hardassity of the policy.
I don't see it as hardassity (but I will accept the label for myself), the exam is compromised once someone leaves.
The rule here for final exams (that has been in place for ages) is that people can be allowed in late until half an hour after the exam stars, but people can't leave until after an hour, so there's no possible overlap.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 25, 2024, 08:56:44 AMQuote from: FishProf on April 25, 2024, 08:31:47 AMQuote from: downer on April 25, 2024, 08:29:15 AMI admire the hardassity of the policy.
I don't see it as hardassity (but I will accept the label for myself), the exam is compromised once someone leaves.
The rule here for final exams (that has been in place for ages) is that people can be allowed in late until half an hour after the exam stars, but people can't leave until after an hour, so there's no possible overlap.
Most folks here will warn students "if you show up after someone has already left, then you can't take the exam." In reality, they make a 3rd/4th version of the exam just for the late folks.
The Venn Diagram of "students who most need to attend the review session" and "students who ask if they'll lose points if they don't attend the review session" is almost a circle.
Seriously, I've got 9 out of 24 students who've emailed me to say they won't be attending today's final exam review, and all of them are in the bottom half of the class in terms of grades. I mean, it doesn't count as a grade per se, but don't you think it'll be helpful to raise your final exam grade? Or is 2pm on a Friday cutting into your social life?
Student missed the final exam because stu mixed up the days. I understand that things happen, but I've been talking about this exam for the past two weeks, posting about it online and oh, it's in the syllabus. I guess it would have helped if stu came to class more often...
Edit: Should I take pity on stu and allow a makeup with penalty? Damn, this kind of thing always gets me in trouble though...
Students who choose not to pay attention to deadlines, or who can't tell time/read calendars, should not be in college. I vote no on any makeup exam.
I would not allow the student to take the final exam. If it's posted everywhere, has been discussed at length in class, and they still missed it, then that's on them. And I know my Dept Chair would back me up.
I would decide on whether to allow the student to do a make up purely on what works best for me, not for the student. I would feel no obligation to the student.
I allowed makeups for quizzes, but while the quizzes were multiple-choice the makeups were all short-answer and were all given on the last day of class. It allowed the few students who genuinely took the makeup seriously to do well, while most everyone else (probably 80-90%) would do poorly but couldn't complain because I did let them take a makeup and they knew the format in advance. And since all the makeups were at the same time, I just needed to create one makeup test per quiz. It took a couple of hours of my time and made me look good to my boss, which was well worth it.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2024, 06:20:25 AMStudent missed the final exam because stu mixed up the days. I understand that things happen, but I've been talking about this exam for the past two weeks, posting about it online and oh, it's in the syllabus. I guess it would have helped if stu came to class more often...
Edit: Should I take pity on stu and allow a makeup with penalty? Damn, this kind of thing always gets me in trouble though...
I'd let them take it in my office. My chair would NOT have my back if I said they earned a 0 on the final exam.
I'd like to bang colleague's head.
Student submits final essay with 98% similarity. Student emails "I matched with myself. I asked my English professor if I could turn in the same paper I wrote for you to him too. He said it was ok." Stu forwards email exchange confirming. The English prof said something like "welp, it looks like you got lucky that the essay you'd write for him works for my prompt. Go ahead. [Ratguy] won't mind."
In what world is this ok?
None that I could see. What will you do here?
Quote from: RatGuy on April 26, 2024, 04:22:45 PMI'd like to bang colleague's head.
Student submits final essay with 98% similarity. Student emails "I matched with myself. I asked my English professor if I could turn in the same paper I wrote for you to him too. He said it was ok." Stu forwards email exchange confirming. The English prof said something like "welp, it looks like you got lucky that the essay you'd write for him works for my prompt. Go ahead. [Ratguy] won't mind."
In what world is this ok?
Wow, submitting the same assignment for two separate classes is absolutely not okay. That situation is specifically mentioned in our college's plagiarism policy, a faculty member would find themselves in some trouble here if that happened. I don't envy you, what a terrible, awkward situation...
Same old story. Online course, all materials available on Day 1, all due next monday. Final is 40% of grade.
1/3 cannot pass, 1/3 will likely not pass, and 1/3 would have to fail the final to not pass.
Every damn semester.
I just sent out the pre-emptive "no extensions, no incompletes*" email.
*technically: no incompletes if they aren't passing at the time of the request.
Quote from: FishProf on April 29, 2024, 09:53:58 AMSame old story. Online course, all materials available on Day 1, all due next monday. Final is 40% of grade.
1/3 cannot pass, 1/3 will likely not pass, and 1/3 would have to fail the final to not pass.
Every damn semester.
I just sent out the pre-emptive "no extensions, no incompletes*" email.
*technically: no incompletes if they aren't passing at the time of the request.
The bolded is actually REALLY important for faculty to know. If the student isn't passing/it's not mathematically possible for them to pass the class, it's actually cruel* to allow an Incomplete. Give them the failing grade they earned so they can quickly decide what to do next & not be stuck in "Incomplete limbo".
They can't re-take the class because they haven't failed it (yet, technically).
They can't register for any classes that require [Incomplete course] as a co-requisite or pre-requisite.
And the longer it takes to resolve the Incomplete, the longer they are delayed in completing their courses.
*and against university policy.
Absolutely true. I was on the committee that tightened up the incomplete rules at FishProfU. It was the wild west.
We had professors that;
1) Gave EVERYONE an incomplete, so they had more time to grade; or
2) Gave EVERYONE without an A and Incomplete until they got to an A; or
3) Gave students an incomplete who could not ever pass, and thereby blocked them from repeating; or
4) Gave incompletes and allowed them to be fixed for years...
Now it's straightforward.
1) Must be passing at time,
2) Must have completed most of the coursework;
3) Must complete the missing work by 8 weeks into next semester (summers excepted) or the grade becomes a failing grade.
4) Extensions to the deadline must be approved at Dean level.
There was much grumbling, but the changes seem to have made incompletes the rarity they are meant to be
Quote from: FishProf on April 29, 2024, 11:11:51 AMNow it's straightforward.
1) Must be passing at time,
2) Must have completed most of the coursework;
3) Must complete the missing work by 8 weeks into next semester (summers excepted) or the grade becomes a failing grade.
4) Extensions to the deadline must be approved at Dean level.
There was much grumbling, but the changes seem to have made incompletes the rarity they are meant to be
Similar rules here, but an even tighter deadline - all incomplete work is due one month after the last day of finals. They also have to fill out a form that must be approved by their advisor and the professor. It is made very clear that it is only for emergency situations the result in not being able to finish a final assignment or exam. Yet, some students still think they can use incompletes to make up long-past missed assignments, or even that it means they don't have to do the work at all. Nope, nope, nope, not going to happen!
Quote from: FishProf on April 29, 2024, 11:11:51 AMAbsolutely true. I was on the committee that tightened up the incomplete rules at FishProfU. It was the wild west.
We had professors that;
1) Gave EVERYONE an incomplete, so they had more time to grade; or
2) Gave EVERYONE without an A and Incomplete until they got to an A; or
3) Gave students an incomplete who could not ever pass, and thereby blocked them from repeating; or
4) Gave incompletes and allowed them to be fixed for years...
Now it's straightforward.
1) Must be passing at time,
2) Must have completed most of the coursework;
3) Must complete the missing work by 8 weeks into next semester (summers excepted) or the grade becomes a failing grade.
4) Extensions to the deadline must be approved at Dean level.
There was much grumbling, but the changes seem to have made incompletes the rarity they are meant to be
Similar rules here except the "missing work" is supposed to be resolved within 1 quarter. This is not actually enforced except as emails from the Registrar to Department Chairs to get these resolved.
The scary thing here is that "Incomplete" is just one of the many options from the dropdown menu when entering grades. Not even an "are you sure?" prompt to make sure folks know what it means.
Ditto for "Grade Delay" and "In Progress".
Quote from: the_geneticist on April 26, 2024, 02:47:30 PMQuote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on April 26, 2024, 06:20:25 AMStudent missed the final exam because stu mixed up the days. I understand that things happen, but I've been talking about this exam for the past two weeks, posting about it online and oh, it's in the syllabus. I guess it would have helped if stu came to class more often...
Edit: Should I take pity on stu and allow a makeup with penalty? Damn, this kind of thing always gets me in trouble though...
I'd let them take it in my office. My chair would NOT have my back if I said they earned a 0 on the final exam.
We're 'encouraged' to help students pass. I should have looked at the student's grade before even considering this. Stu would not have passed the course with a 100% on the final.