Ontario's new Grade 9 curriculum preaches 'subjective' nature of mathematics (https://canoe.com/life/ontarios-new-grade-9-curriculum-preaches-subjective-nature-of-mathematics/wcm/1d9c1421-084a-46a8-9e6b-2c2217ddca99)
From the article:
Quote
Math, it continues, has been "used to normalize racism and marginalization of non-Eurocentric mathematical knowledges," and explains that taking a "decolonial" and "anti-racist approach" to teaching math will outline its "historical roots and social constructions" to students.
"non-Eurocentric mathematical knowledges"; you mean like zero (from India) and al' gebra (from the middle east)? Yeah, those have been seriously marginalized; they'll never catch on.
"knowledges" is the left equivalent of "alternative facts" on the right.
Well that's a bummer. I was thinking if things get crazy enough around here I could move to Canada.
It's not clear what's meant, so I won't say anything about the substance here. It sounds silly when presented like that, but perhaps they've articulated a clearer vision of what they're after elsewhere?
Perhaps, for instance, the idea is to start showing failures of applied mathematics, many of which have racist outcomes. If so, then that's a fine thing to be doing in HS math, and probably of a lot more interest to students than most of their textbook's word problems. You can do a pretty decent bit of critical thinking education with HS stats.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 13, 2021, 05:38:46 AM
"non-Eurocentric mathematical knowledges"; you mean like zero (from India) and al' gebra (from the middle east)? Yeah, those have been seriously marginalized; they'll never catch on.
How often do students learn about the geographic origins of these ideas in HS, though? (I mean, you sort of get Pythagoras for free because his name's in the theorem, but for the most part... and even then, you probably don't learn any of the cool things about Pythagoras like his fear of beans.) Perhaps the idea is simply to make it explicit that mathematical concepts weren't all discovered in some white man's vacuum cleaner.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 13, 2021, 05:38:46 AM
"knowledges" is the left equivalent of "alternative facts" on the right.
Except, of course, that Ontario's government is Conservative. This is coming entirely from the Conservatives.
Quote from: mahagonny on July 13, 2021, 06:51:45 AM
Well that's a bummer. I was thinking if things get crazy enough around here I could move to Canada.
I'm pretty sure you'd classify the entire country as 'hard left', though. Maybe not some chunks of Alberta, but even then, I'm not sure. But in any event, I doubt you could. You're a bit aged for the points to work in your favour, unless you snag a good (tenure-track) job somewhere willing to sponsor you.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 13, 2021, 09:04:57 AM
It's not clear what's meant, so I won't say anything about the substance here. It sounds silly when presented like that, but perhaps they've articulated a clearer vision of what they're after elsewhere?
Perhaps, for instance, the idea is to start showing failures of applied mathematics, many of which have racist outcomes. If so, then that's a fine thing to be doing in HS math, and probably of a lot more interest to students than most of their textbook's word problems. You can do a pretty decent bit of critical thinking education with HS stats.
If math were one of those subjects students breeze through, and so there's lots of extra time, there may be some value in that. However, most students need as much practice as they can get, and taking time away from that for political discussions isn't helpful.
The good students, who learn fast, will get through OK. The weak students, who need all the practice they can get, will come out with even worse skills than they get now. Ironically, many
of those weaker students will be from "marginalized" communities, which will put them further behind.
Quote
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 13, 2021, 05:38:46 AM
"non-Eurocentric mathematical knowledges"; you mean like zero (from India) and al' gebra (from the middle east)? Yeah, those have been seriously marginalized; they'll never catch on.
How often do students learn about the geographic origins of these ideas in HS, though? (I mean, you sort of get Pythagoras for free because his name's in the theorem, but for the most part... and even then, you probably don't learn any of the cool things about Pythagoras like his fear of beans.) Perhaps the idea is simply to make it explicit that mathematical concepts weren't all discovered in some white man's vacuum cleaner.
Most students don't care about any of that. If anything, the students who are typically most interested in the origins are the students most interested in the subject in the first place.
This is unlikely to do anything to improve the understanding (or engagement, for that matter), of weaker students.
Quote
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 13, 2021, 05:38:46 AM
"knowledges" is the left equivalent of "alternative facts" on the right.
Except, of course, that Ontario's government is Conservative. This is coming entirely from the Conservatives.
I know. It baffles me. (Although most of the bigwigs in the Ministry of Education are much more liberal. And they'll be the ones proposing these sorts of things internally.)
OK, I googled around this subject. The changes are a bundle:
-no more streaming;
-more practical stuff in the course [than which previous one?]; and
-the moronic stuff Marsh quoted.
https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/secondary-mathematics/courses/mth1w/course-intro#vision-and-goals-of-the-grade-9-mathematics-course (https://www.dcp.edu.gov.on.ca/en/curriculum/secondary-mathematics/courses/mth1w/course-intro#vision-and-goals-of-the-grade-9-mathematics-course)
What's going on is clear. A bunch of verbiage to mask a dumbing down for everybody. This will promote equality of outcomes.
I suppose this is all a reaction to nonsense such as this https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/). Apparently mathematical ability is the product of a self-fulfilling prophecy, not a set of facts to work with. Reality is socially constructed, after all.
This does not do non-Europeans any favors. It attempts to bring down the top instead of lifting the bottom.
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 09:56:16 AM
This does not do non-Europeans any favors. It attempts to bring down the top instead of lifting the bottom.
"Attempts" is the operative word. As I said, the smart kids will get it, and parents with resources will get their kids tutoring, etc. (where they will actually
learn math, "eurocentric" or otherwise), and so they will still do fine. The parents without resources will be stuck with whatever reduced amount of actual learning their kids get.
(Look at the kids in a tutoring program like Kumon; lots of South- and East -Asian kids, who aren't necessarily behind academically, but whose parents put them there so they can
excel. Dumbing down the curriculum for the masses just widens that gap.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 13, 2021, 11:03:29 AM
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 09:56:16 AM
This does not do non-Europeans any favors. It attempts to bring down the top instead of lifting the bottom.
"Attempts" is the operative word. As I said, the smart kids will get it, and parents with resources will get their kids tutoring, etc. (where they will actually learn math, "eurocentric" or otherwise), and so they will still do fine. The parents without resources will be stuck with whatever reduced amount of actual learning their kids get.
(Look at the kids in a tutoring program like Kumon; lots of South- and East -Asian kids, who aren't necessarily behind academically, but whose parents put them there so they can excel. Dumbing down the curriculum for the masses just widens that gap.)
Very true. And look at the extra cost!
This stuff may have a silver lining in that a revolution against state provided education may break out because getting around state education is more than ever necessary but too expensive for the middle class [where the votes are].
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Wow. That's blatant.
M.
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Who knows?
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 13, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Who knows?
There are at least two of us who know. :-)
Three.
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 13, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Who knows?
Well, since the term "BIPOC" only appeared in the last couple of years, secundum_artem is either about 17 years old, or has been taking remedial grade 9 math if the post was
not made in jest.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2021, 05:13:21 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 13, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Who knows?
Well, since the term "BIPOC" only appeared in the last couple of years, secundum_artem is either about 17 years old, or has been taking remedial grade 9 math if the post was not made in jest.
Or secundum_artem doesn't remember the exact wording of word problems from high school math classes and so uses terms that are common in modern discourse for the sake of simplicity.
Quote from: ergative on July 14, 2021, 07:50:13 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2021, 05:13:21 AM
Quote from: evil_physics_witchcraft on July 13, 2021, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: dismalist on July 13, 2021, 03:16:14 PM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 13, 2021, 11:26:12 AM
I took grade 9 math in Ontario, so I can see why they are doing this. I well remember questions like:
Billy wants to make $5 selling apples. He sells apples to his white customers for 20¢ each and he sells apples to his BIPOC customers for 40¢ apiece. If Billy sells 13 apples to his white customers, how many apples must he sell to his BIPOC customers to reach his $5 goal?
Yup Math be racist as hell.
Seems like not all posters understand that this is meant ironically.
Who knows?
Well, since the term "BIPOC" only appeared in the last couple of years, secundum_artem is either about 17 years old, or has been taking remedial grade 9 math if the post was not made in jest.
Or secundum_artem doesn't remember the exact wording of word problems from high school math classes and so uses terms that are common in modern discourse for the sake of simplicity.
The idea that in
any western country *within the past 50 years that it would be acceptable to assume it was OK to treat people differently based on the colour of their skin, and to the point of having it incidental to a math problem, is laughable.
*Of course it wouldn't be surprising if some from the left now would advocate just that, such as businesses charging men more than women to "correct" the wage gap.
marshwiggle is right about the last 50 years and exams, and as a caveat I'll admit to knowing nothing about Ontario's initiative. I DO know there are still some serious issues to address.
Jo Boaler is mentioned prominently in the California (and other state) initiatives. She is an excellent researcher, and the source of a bunch of good classroom material for teachers which are not explicitly connected to race and gender, but rather having high expectations for students and ways to help all students become more mathematically proficient.
For anyone who is serious about the topic, here is a quick synopsis of some studies which indicate how race and gender can affect performance in math: https://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype
All sides have wackos. Some sides are more subject to Poe's law than others.
Good lord, some people DO believe everything they read on the interwebz.
I used the term BIPOC so as not to use a term that would be potentially offensive to some of our more delicate forumites. I originally wanted to use a question about sl@ve$ selling for $85 dollars each but went with apples and BIPOC so nobody's head would explode.
Ironic - totally ironic.
I used to think I was a liberal. Now I wonder.
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2021, 08:42:42 AM
Good lord, some people DO believe everything they read on the interwebz.
I used the term BIPOC so as not to use a term that would be potentially offensive to some of our more delicate forumites. I originally wanted to use a question about sl@ve$ selling for $85 dollars each but went with apples and BIPOC so nobody's head would explode.
Ironic - totally ironic.
I used to think I was a liberal. Now I wonder.
It's easy now; there are only two categories - progressive and alt-right. (Alternatively, "anti-racist" or "fascist"). No need to wonder at all. ( A person's
gender can be non-binary or anything at all, but their
ideology cannot. Welcome to the wokiverse.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2021, 08:50:49 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2021, 08:42:42 AM
Good lord, some people DO believe everything they read on the interwebz.
I used the term BIPOC so as not to use a term that would be potentially offensive to some of our more delicate forumites. I originally wanted to use a question about sl@ve$ selling for $85 dollars each but went with apples and BIPOC so nobody's head would explode.
Ironic - totally ironic.
I used to think I was a liberal. Now I wonder.
It's easy now; there are only two categories - progressive and alt-right. (Alternatively, "anti-racist" or "fascist"). No need to wonder at all. ( A person's gender can be non-binary or anything at all, but their ideology cannot. Welcome to the wokiverse.)
Thomas Sowell writes, "If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules ... that would have gotten you labeled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today."
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2021, 08:50:49 AM
It's easy now; there are only two categories - strawman and alt-right.
FTFY.
Ontario was the last province to still have math streaming. Its elimination is a good thing. So far, the most I can see about decolonial stuff (thanks to dismalist's link and a CBC article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/grade-9-math-curriculum-ontario-streaming-lecce-1.6058810)) is just teaching students a little about the history of mathematical developments and--primarily--fostering more inclusive pedagogical practices which are senstitive to the kinds of challenges some children might face in learning mathematics. There's that, plus intergrating mathematics with what they're learning elsewhere (commonplace in other provinces) and teaching them to code.
None of that seems calamitous, or worth getting all up in arms about. Sure, there are buzzwords you guys loathe, but what are the substantive changes which are so bad?
Do also bear in mind that the Canadian education system is currently one of the finest in the world, and pretty much unique in that there are no significant racial, class, immigration status, or other disparities between students in the system (or systems, since each province has its own) (with the partial exception of Indigenous children on reserve, but that's another story). We're not broken like US is.
In other words, the kids are alright.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 14, 2021, 08:41:24 AM
marshwiggle is right about the last 50 years and exams, and as a caveat I'll admit to knowing nothing about Ontario's initiative. I DO know there are still some serious issues to address.
Jo Boaler is mentioned prominently in the California (and other state) initiatives. She is an excellent researcher, and the source of a bunch of good classroom material for teachers which are not explicitly connected to race and gender, but rather having high expectations for students and ways to help all students become more mathematically proficient.
For anyone who is serious about the topic, here is a quick synopsis of some studies which indicate how race and gender can affect performance in math: https://www.apa.org/research/action/stereotype
But the question still persists: how can you make math easier and still have it be math? (You can't) We learned about this crisis of confidence thing before around our kindergarten years. It was a book called 'The Little Engine That Could.' There is no one of any color or any gender who is immune to the crisis of confidence. It has to be faced by the individual.
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2021, 08:42:42 AM
Good lord, some people DO believe everything they read on the interwebz.
I used the term BIPOC so as not to use a term that would be potentially offensive to some of our more delicate forumites. I originally wanted to use a question about sl@ve$ selling for $85 dollars each but went with apples and BIPOC so nobody's head would explode.
Ironic - totally ironic.
I used to think I was a liberal. Now I wonder.
Yes, I confess it: I did believe you were being unironic. You know why? Because your example is not too extreme to be real. Here is something from Snopes confirming that this sort of thing actually does happen, with math tests no less (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/math-test/). The linked case is particularly instructive, because although the math test was intended as a joke, teachers decided that it was fine and dandy adopt it as part of their curriculum in classrooms across the US.
Here's another example, a case of math homework that says "Each tree had 56 oranges. If eight slaves pick them equally, then how much would each slave pick?" and "If Frederick got two beatings per day, how many beatings did he get in one week?" (https://www.colorlines.com/articles/atlanta-school-sends-8-year-olds-math-homework-about-beating-slaves) These examples are examples of the sort that you
rejected as being
too extreme for satire here, and yet, if we are to believe this link (which includes video interviews and certainly doesn't seem like 'satire' to me), it actually happened.
How can you blame us for believing that your experience was part of this sort of thing?
It's true that we should not jump to believe every crazy thing we hear, because satire exists. But on the other hand, disbelieving things because they are too wacky to be serious is how we got Trump as president. It's tough to balance our credulity against recognizing genuinely extreme reality vs. disbelieving ironically extreme satire. But we're trying. I'm glad that students in your school were not subjected to the sort of math test you describe. But other students in other schools were. So I'm not going to tsk and shake my head at liberal panic over racist math curriculum, because it exists, and is a problem.
Maybe the measures that prompted this thread are not the best way to go about fixing the problem. But that does not mean there is no problem to be fixed.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 14, 2021, 09:45:20 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 14, 2021, 08:50:49 AM
It's easy now; there are only two categories - strawman and alt-right.
FTFY.
Ontario was the last province to still have math streaming. Its elimination is a good thing. So far, the most I can see about decolonial stuff (thanks to dismalist's link and a CBC article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/grade-9-math-curriculum-ontario-streaming-lecce-1.6058810)) is just teaching students a little about the history of mathematical developments and--primarily--fostering more inclusive pedagogical practices which are senstitive to the kinds of challenges some children might face in learning mathematics. There's that, plus intergrating mathematics with what they're learning elsewhere (commonplace in other provinces) and teaching them to code.
None of that seems calamitous, or worth getting all up in arms about. Sure, there are buzzwords you guys loathe, but what are the substantive changes which are so bad?
Do also bear in mind that the Canadian education system is currently one of the finest in the world, and pretty much unique in that there are no significant racial, class, immigration status, or other disparities between students in the system (or systems, since each province has its own) (with the partial exception of Indigenous children on reserve, but that's another story). We're not broken like US is.
In other words, the kids are alright.
Serious, non-ironic question: do you know of any research done on Canadian schoolchildren about stereotype threat?
As for the USA, I think it's time to tell our non-immigrant children that fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 01:42:38 AM
Quote from: secundem_artem on July 14, 2021, 08:42:42 AM
Good lord, some people DO believe everything they read on the interwebz.
I used the term BIPOC so as not to use a term that would be potentially offensive to some of our more delicate forumites. I originally wanted to use a question about sl@ve$ selling for $85 dollars each but went with apples and BIPOC so nobody's head would explode.
Ironic - totally ironic.
I used to think I was a liberal. Now I wonder.
Yes, I confess it: I did believe you were being unironic. You know why? Because your example is not too extreme to be real. Here is something from Snopes confirming that this sort of thing actually does happen, with math tests no less (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/math-test/). The linked case is particularly instructive, because although the math test was intended as a joke, teachers decided that it was fine and dandy adopt it as part of their curriculum in classrooms across the US.
That was originally created as a joke, and some teacher(s) decided to use it. It wasn't produced or approved by any government agency.
Quote
Here's another example, a case of math homework that says "Each tree had 56 oranges. If eight slaves pick them equally, then how much would each slave pick?" and "If Frederick got two beatings per day, how many beatings did he get in one week?" (https://www.colorlines.com/articles/atlanta-school-sends-8-year-olds-math-homework-about-beating-slaves) These examples are examples of the sort that you rejected as being too extreme for satire here, and yet, if we are to believe this link (which includes video interviews and certainly doesn't seem like 'satire' to me), it actually happened.
From the article :
Quote
Gwinnett County School District spokeswoman Sloan Roach told WSBT that the teachers, who was not identified, was attempting a "cross-curricular activity," in which social studies topics would be woven into math assignments.
Whether it was intended to be provocative or not, it seems it was produced as a
fulfillment of this idea of introducing discussions about social issues into every subject. (Instead of math problems being just about
math.)
And it also wasn't approved by any government agency. Nothing like that would have been part of any approved curriculum
anywhere in the past several decades, if ever.
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 04:02:54 AM
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
The disagreements here, and in society in general, are not primarily between progressives and white supremacists (who are a tiny, if vocal, minority.) They're between the progressives and the
large part of the population who don't think introducing identity politics into everything helps.
The pedagogical techniques that are most effective in math are probably the same in Sweden, Singapore, and Sudan. Do kids in India need to study the history of the caste system
in math class in order to learn
math? Math is a skill, and the most important thing is
practice. More practice is the way to better skills, and the more time devoted to practice the better. Any time spent on social philosophy detracts from that. If you want to remind teachers to use "Jamal" instead of "Jim" in your word problems, fine, but that doesn't require a whole "decolonized" curriculum (whatever that would be).
And with those examples like the gang-related math questions? My guess is that they've been used by math teachers trying to get their disengaged students interested, and a teacher with a good rappoort with students may even have gotten laughs from some of those very students because of it. Humour is context-sensitive; what may be funny in one context may not in another, and whether something was offensive
to the students in the room can't be determined without talking to them.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 05:01:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 04:02:54 AM
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
The disagreements here, and in society in general, are not primarily between progressives and white supremacists (who are a tiny, if vocal, minority.) They're between the progressives and the large part of the population who don't think introducing identity politics into everything helps.
The pedagogical techniques that are most effective in math are probably the same in Sweden, Singapore, and Sudan. Do kids in India need to study the history of the caste system in math class in order to learn math? Math is a skill, and the most important thing is practice. More practice is the way to better skills, and the more time devoted to practice the better. Any time spent on social philosophy detracts from that. If you want to remind teachers to use "Jamal" instead of "Jim" in your word problems, fine, but that doesn't require a whole "decolonized" curriculum (whatever that would be).
And with those examples like the gang-related math questions? My guess is that they've been used by math teachers trying to get their disengaged students interested, and a teacher with a good rappoort with students may even have gotten laughs from some of those very students because of it. Humour is context-sensitive; what may be funny in one context may not in another, and whether something was offensive to the students in the room can't be determined without talking to them.
You left out Japan and the Netherlands.
The reference I made above to Jo Boaler (and many of us who work in the field) is NOT about making math easier. To the contrary, if you emulate Japan (which we do in a US way) it makes math both harder and more enjoyable. And, I'll state categorically more practice if it's badly designed practice (look in any US textbook) is counterproductive.
Reference (yes, I know these were wealthy districts): https://www.educationworld.com/a_curr/curr251.shtml
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 05:59:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 05:01:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 04:02:54 AM
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
The disagreements here, and in society in general, are not primarily between progressives and white supremacists (who are a tiny, if vocal, minority.) They're between the progressives and the large part of the population who don't think introducing identity politics into everything helps.
The pedagogical techniques that are most effective in math are probably the same in Sweden, Singapore, and Sudan. Do kids in India need to study the history of the caste system in math class in order to learn math? Math is a skill, and the most important thing is practice. More practice is the way to better skills, and the more time devoted to practice the better. Any time spent on social philosophy detracts from that. If you want to remind teachers to use "Jamal" instead of "Jim" in your word problems, fine, but that doesn't require a whole "decolonized" curriculum (whatever that would be).
And with those examples like the gang-related math questions? My guess is that they've been used by math teachers trying to get their disengaged students interested, and a teacher with a good rappoort with students may even have gotten laughs from some of those very students because of it. Humour is context-sensitive; what may be funny in one context may not in another, and whether something was offensive to the students in the room can't be determined without talking to them.
You left out Japan and the Netherlands.
The reference I made above to Jo Boaler (and many of us who work in the field) is NOT about making math easier. To the contrary, if you emulate Japan (which we do in a US way) it makes math both harder and more enjoyable. And, I'll state categorically more practice if it's badly designed practice (look in any US textbook) is counterproductive.
Reference (yes, I know these were wealthy districts): https://www.educationworld.com/a_curr/curr251.shtml
So will methods used in Japan work in the USA, even though they don't include anything about the legacy of slavery, since Japan has been pretty racially homogenous for centuries?
(I completely agree about the uselessness of
bad practice, but the point is that students improve math skills by
doing math, rather than by
talking about what sort of historical and cultural factors may be obstacles.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 05:59:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 05:01:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 04:02:54 AM
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
The disagreements here, and in society in general, are not primarily between progressives and white supremacists (who are a tiny, if vocal, minority.) They're between the progressives and the large part of the population who don't think introducing identity politics into everything helps.
The pedagogical techniques that are most effective in math are probably the same in Sweden, Singapore, and Sudan. Do kids in India need to study the history of the caste system in math class in order to learn math? Math is a skill, and the most important thing is practice. More practice is the way to better skills, and the more time devoted to practice the better. Any time spent on social philosophy detracts from that. If you want to remind teachers to use "Jamal" instead of "Jim" in your word problems, fine, but that doesn't require a whole "decolonized" curriculum (whatever that would be).
And with those examples like the gang-related math questions? My guess is that they've been used by math teachers trying to get their disengaged students interested, and a teacher with a good rappoort with students may even have gotten laughs from some of those very students because of it. Humour is context-sensitive; what may be funny in one context may not in another, and whether something was offensive to the students in the room can't be determined without talking to them.
You left out Japan and the Netherlands.
The reference I made above to Jo Boaler (and many of us who work in the field) is NOT about making math easier. To the contrary, if you emulate Japan (which we do in a US way) it makes math both harder and more enjoyable. And, I'll state categorically more practice if it's badly designed practice (look in any US textbook) is counterproductive.
Reference (yes, I know these were wealthy districts): https://www.educationworld.com/a_curr/curr251.shtml
So will methods used in Japan work in the USA, even though they don't include anything about the legacy of slavery, since Japan has been pretty racially homogenous for centuries?
(I completely agree about the uselessness of bad practice, but the point is that students improve math skills by doing math, rather than by talking about what sort of historical and cultural factors may be obstacles.)
Of course. When most of us who are mathematically trained and work with classroom teachers the idea of inclusivity has nothing to do with current trends. We've been playing Whack-a-Mole for decades. We help implement methods on a small scale (the Chicago area project referenced above was one of the largest, but still small by US standards), which work for quite some time and then disappear as new teachers come in. The efforts have not been sustainable nor scalable, as the US system seems impervious to any real change.
Fun (?) sidetrack: I once had two students interview for a job, and the Principal asked how they would use the Civil War to teach algebra. Now, there is a great deal of cool math that can be taught in the context of the Civil War (and no, I'm talking about the thread topic), but it really isn't algebra. People who don't understand what teaching math in context means, or that inclusivity is completely entwined with higher expectations for all students are making the decisions.
I'm leaving now, and probably going to day drink.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 05:59:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 05:01:46 AM
Quote from: ergative on July 15, 2021, 04:02:54 AM
I don't understand why it's relevant whether or not a government agency approved these terrible decisions. I'm not claiming they're part of a curriculum or anything. Secundem_artem gave an ironic example of racist math. We believed it, and were mocked. I gave these examples as a way of showing that it wasn't unreasonable for us to believe that these examples might be real.
The disagreements here, and in society in general, are not primarily between progressives and white supremacists (who are a tiny, if vocal, minority.) They're between the progressives and the large part of the population who don't think introducing identity politics into everything helps.
The pedagogical techniques that are most effective in math are probably the same in Sweden, Singapore, and Sudan. Do kids in India need to study the history of the caste system in math class in order to learn math? Math is a skill, and the most important thing is practice. More practice is the way to better skills, and the more time devoted to practice the better. Any time spent on social philosophy detracts from that. If you want to remind teachers to use "Jamal" instead of "Jim" in your word problems, fine, but that doesn't require a whole "decolonized" curriculum (whatever that would be).
And with those examples like the gang-related math questions? My guess is that they've been used by math teachers trying to get their disengaged students interested, and a teacher with a good rappoort with students may even have gotten laughs from some of those very students because of it. Humour is context-sensitive; what may be funny in one context may not in another, and whether something was offensive to the students in the room can't be determined without talking to them.
You left out Japan and the Netherlands.
The reference I made above to Jo Boaler (and many of us who work in the field) is NOT about making math easier. To the contrary, if you emulate Japan (which we do in a US way) it makes math both harder and more enjoyable. And, I'll state categorically more practice if it's badly designed practice (look in any US textbook) is counterproductive.
Reference (yes, I know these were wealthy districts): https://www.educationworld.com/a_curr/curr251.shtml
So will methods used in Japan work in the USA, even though they don't include anything about the legacy of slavery, since Japan has been pretty racially homogenous for centuries?
(I completely agree about the uselessness of bad practice, but the point is that students improve math skills by doing math, rather than by talking about what sort of historical and cultural factors may be obstacles.)
I used to know one of our local high school math teachers. She was a college English and education major--who barely graduated--and worked for some years in daycares before eventually passing her qualifying exam to teach K-12. Since it is exceedingly rare for people with an aptitude for math to want to teach K-12 in the U.S.--they're in such short supply that they can make better money anywhere else--the school was prepared to pay a new teacher a premium if she was willing to go through a brief qualifying program for math teachers and become a math teacher. This aspiring teacher did so.
She had no aptitude for or interest in math at all. Her personal finances were an absolute disaster due to her inability and unwillingness to apply her theoretical math knowledge--such as it was--to the real-world business of personal finance. She once told me in so many words that she couldn't understand why she was paying and paying on her student loans, and yet the amount she owed never went down. This was because she persisted in paying minimum--i.e. interest-only--payments on her loan, and never grasped the fact that interest on a loan means paying extra.
This person was not fairly representative of K-12 math teachers in the U.S. She had mental instability and drug use issues, and was laid off by the school district when it consolidated schools. It was their way of getting rid of a poorly-performing teacher without going through the formal firing process. But the fact that somebody like this got hired by a school district in the first place, and was allowed to teach for three years, and was
then hired by another school district in another town, suggests something about how desperately hard-up most American school systems are for skilled math teachers.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 06:43:19 AM
Fun (?) sidetrack: I once had two students interview for a job, and the Principal asked how they would use the Civil War to teach algebra.
I sincerely wish at least one of them had asked the Principal how s/he would use algebra to teach the Civil War. The confused look in response would illustrate the bone-headedness of the original question.
Perhaps I should point out that many of Anglophone Canada's textbooks are produced by Houghton Mifflin (IIRC my first non-H-M math textbook was in grade 9). And they're not made to order. Until I took math in French, I remember countless cases of imperial measurements and using the size of Texas as a reference point. The latter was particularly confusing for me in elementary school, because I had no idea what Texas was or why its size mattered. When I discovered it's substantially smaller than ten provinces and territorties (and barely bigger than one), I was even more confused.
So, remember: what goes for the Texas school curriculum doesn't just influence the rest of the US. It influences Canada, too. secundem_artem's case was made in jest, but it's not implausible.
Quote from: spork on July 15, 2021, 02:48:01 AM
Serious, non-ironic question: do you know of any research done on Canadian schoolchildren about stereotype threat?
No, I don't. Why do you ask?
IIRC, the stereotype threat literature has mostly not survived replication--at least, as far as the direct, immediate effects are concerned. (We do know that to the extent that these stereotypes are reflected in our social behaviour, they do have an effect on people's self-perception and their beliefs about what opportunities are available to them.)
Puget would know more (and better). I'm just relying on memory.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on July 14, 2021, 09:45:20 AM
Do also bear in mind that the Canadian education system is currently one of the finest in the world, and pretty much unique in that there are no significant racial, class, immigration status, or other disparities between students in the system (or systems, since each province has its own) (with the partial exception of Indigenous children on reserve, but that's another story). We're not broken like US is.
In other words, the kids are alright.
While certainly not bad, according to Pisa tests it's behind basically everywhere in East Asia in math.
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 07:56:02 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 06:43:19 AM
Fun (?) sidetrack: I once had two students interview for a job, and the Principal asked how they would use the Civil War to teach algebra.
I sincerely wish at least one of them had asked the Principal how s/he would use algebra to teach the Civil War. The confused look in response would illustrate the bone-headedness of the original question.
Perhaps twenty years ago I got a whiff of what progressive math education means. There was a division question on my daughter's homework, from the text, 20 ice cream cones and 10 kids. What is the fair number of ice cream cones for each kid?
Fair? How about equal? And equal does not mean the same thing as fair. I actually brought this up with the teacher. She had no clue what I was talking about.
I think teaching math in racial-centric ways is nothing more than an invitation to redefine words and influence kids that way. The teachers sure as hell won't be able to do any math!
Math education won't improve until we get better teachers. Nothing else really matters. The bureaucrats keep looking for a magic solution because getting better teachers across the board is expensive, and education departments keep pretending to look for one because that's how they get funded, but there isn't one.
Actually, I'm becoming slowly convinced that most people are cognitively incapable of any epistemology better than finding a prophet and listening to him (and it's usually him), in which case none of it matters.
Quote from: dismalist on July 16, 2021, 04:57:56 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on July 15, 2021, 07:56:02 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on July 15, 2021, 06:43:19 AM
Fun (?) sidetrack: I once had two students interview for a job, and the Principal asked how they would use the Civil War to teach algebra.
I sincerely wish at least one of them had asked the Principal how s/he would use algebra to teach the Civil War. The confused look in response would illustrate the bone-headedness of the original question.
Perhaps twenty years ago I got a whiff of what progressive math education means. There was a division question on my daughter's homework, from the text, 20 ice cream cones and 10 kids. What is the fair number of ice cream cones for each kid? Fair? How about equal? And equal does not mean the same thing as fair. I actually brought this up with the teacher. She had no clue what I was talking about.
I think teaching math in racial-centric ways is nothing more than an invitation to redefine words and influence kids that way. The teachers sure as hell won't be able to do any math!
Remember that test and homework questions are written as piecework by typically under qualified drones. The authors were trying to reference a phrase from Game Theory which is actually necessary for the problem to be solved in the desired way. The teacher ideally should have known this (but in practice little chance there is little chance of it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_division
Surely you jest, Dr. Feynman! The ed school geniuses who commission or write arithmetic textbooks couldn't even spell game theory. :-)
Heh. They don't even know where the term comes from (it actually has been around a lot longer than game Theory). They are just told fair division is a thing.