Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
The author with more background: https://clarkcreativeeducation.com/2018/04/24/21st-century-math-projects/
And the article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/18/desantis-takes-an-anti-crt-victory-lap-without-showing-his-math/
FTR, I'm sick of all the crap.
desantis is running for 2024 prez......
We can safely assume DeSantis is just playing politics. But is he playing to his Florida voters or to the FauxNews-watching wider public?
Florida: According to the 2020 census, the racial distributions are as follows; 51.5% Non-Hispanic White, 14.5% African American , 2.9% Asian American, .2% native American. 26.6% of the Population are Hispanics or Latino (of any race). (Wikipediia)
Florida also has a lot of old people.
How does the Hispanic/Latino population react to CRT issues? Do they care one way or the other? My experience with my Hispanic students is that many of them are very sympathetic to Black Lives Matter.
Quote from: downer on April 19, 2022, 06:14:09 AM
How does the Hispanic/Latino population react to CRT issues? Do they care one way or the other? My experience with my Hispanic students is that many of them are very sympathetic to Black Lives Matter.
Not so much, and you really lost them with the 'defund the police' riff. And they hate being referred to as Latinx.
Everything being experienced in Florida politics that progressives hate, they themselves have a strong hand in initiating.
When you say "I don't think parents should decide what or how students should be taught" you are setting the stage for someone to say "Hello parents. How do you feel? I'm running for office, and I'd like to know.' Any smart, no, any politician of average astuteness should capitalize on that opportunity.
I'm looking forward to when the AP College Board starts rejecting their math courses.
Quote from: lightning on April 20, 2022, 11:11:40 AM
I'm looking forward to when the AP College Board starts rejecting their math courses.
Many hands make light work.
Quote from: downer on April 19, 2022, 06:14:09 AM
How does the Hispanic/Latino population react to CRT issues?
Shhh, no one's doing any CRT, remember?
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2022, 01:19:16 PM
Quote from: lightning on April 20, 2022, 11:11:40 AM
I'm looking forward to when the AP College Board starts rejecting their math courses.
Many hands make light work.
Quote from: downer on April 19, 2022, 06:14:09 AM
How does the Hispanic/Latino population react to CRT issues?
Shhh, no one's doing any CRT, remember?
They sure aren't in K-12 math texts.
Quote from: lightning on April 20, 2022, 11:11:40 AM
I'm looking forward to when the AP College Board starts rejecting their math courses.
Colleges and universities are rejecting the SAT's! (https://www.sparkadmissions.com/blog/what-colleges-will-be-test-optional-in-2022-2023/)
My favorite way of dealing with disagreements is to decentralize decision making. [Voucherizing everything in K-12 would be best.] Minimizes conflict. But neither large political party subscribes to such a view.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 20, 2022, 02:10:06 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 20, 2022, 01:19:16 PM
Quote from: lightning on April 20, 2022, 11:11:40 AM
I'm looking forward to when the AP College Board starts rejecting their math courses.
Many hands make light work.
Quote from: downer on April 19, 2022, 06:14:09 AM
How does the Hispanic/Latino population react to CRT issues?
Shhh, no one's doing any CRT, remember?
They sure aren't in K-12 math texts.
So why I are we talking about it?
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Did you
read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend,
brother,
father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (
bookie,
drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
Thank god I was not forced to learn about such awful things as ""sketch the graph of the degenerate conic." Kudos to deSantis for shielding innocent students from being exposed to such degeneracy in math textbooks.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/04/19/florida-math-textbooks-critical-race-theory/
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 04:44:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Did you read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend, brother, father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (bookie, drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
I cannot access the entire questions. Would you post at least one complete question? Not doubting you. Just want to know what folks are talking about.
Quote from: nebo113 on April 21, 2022, 06:41:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 04:44:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Did you read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend, brother, father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (bookie, drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
I cannot access the entire questions. Would you post at least one complete question? Not doubting you. Just want to know what folks are talking about.
It's from the twitter link above. I don't even have a twitter account and I was able to see it. (I just has to save the image and then zoom in on it.)
Quote from: nebo113 on April 21, 2022, 06:41:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 04:44:55 AM
Did you read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend, brother, father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (bookie, drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
I cannot access the entire questions. Would you post at least one complete question? Not doubting you. Just want to know what folks are talking about.
The correct answers in the math tie to the correct answers for Maya Angelou. So sort of a combo literature-math lesson.
Clever pedagogy, but rather triggering and adult themes to be dropping in so casually. Algebra with a side of incest!
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 04:44:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Did you read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend, brother, father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (bookie, drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
You clearly didn't read the other link. That was a worksheet from a teacher who was teaching both algebra and a class where Angelou was being taught (in 2011). He tried to create a worksheet where both content areas were reviewed. Put it on a curriculum sharing site. Not in a textbook series, AND the worksheet was revised several years ago to not include the questions you just cited.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 21, 2022, 06:53:07 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 04:44:55 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 20, 2022, 06:21:38 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 18, 2022, 02:52:14 PM
Going to post, and then reply. The Governor's spokesperson showed the worksheet below as an example. Please note that it is not in any textbooks. I'll also send a link to the person who wrote the original, and a WaPo piece with more background re Florida.
https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1515505531582042118
Maya Angelou is offensive CRT!?!?!?
Did you read the questions?
3. Angelou was sexually abused by her mother's (boyfriend, brother, father) at age 8, which shaped her career choices and motivation for writing.
4. Trying to support her son as a single mother, she worked as a pimp, prostitute, and (bookie, drug dealer, night club dancer).
Not exactly sure what bringing this stuff has to do with math at whatever grade level this is.
You clearly didn't read the other link. That was a worksheet from a teacher who was teaching both algebra and a class where Angelou was being taught (in 2011). He tried to create a worksheet where both content areas were reviewed. Put it on a curriculum sharing site. Not in a textbook series, AND the worksheet was revised several years ago to not include the questions you just cited.
I was responding to Wahoo, who I don't believe even looked at the link, or if so, didn't provide any context for it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 07:02:22 AM
I was responding to Wahoo, who I don't believe even looked at the link, or if so, didn't provide any context for it.
Think it through, Marshy...
How do you suppose I knew we were discussing Angelou?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 08:05:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 07:02:22 AM
I was responding to Wahoo, who I don't believe even looked at the link, or if so, didn't provide any context for it.
Think it through, Marshy...
How do you suppose I knew we were discussing Angelou?
So you didn't see any problems with the questions themselves?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 08:25:53 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 08:05:02 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 07:02:22 AM
I was responding to Wahoo, who I don't believe even looked at the link, or if so, didn't provide any context for it.
Think it through, Marshy...
How do you suppose I knew we were discussing Angelou?
So you didn't see any problems with the questions themselves?
I do not see how the questions are CRT.
And no, I do not see any real problems with the questions.
Angelou was a remarkable success story considering what she had to survive. Her work is predicated on her real-world struggles. And she is a rare affirmative voice in literature. People think we must pretend that kids are innocents who cannot be exposed to shocking realities. Firstly, this is the age of the Internet----I think, rightly or wrongly, the kids know this stuff already. Secondly, we as a society are working to confront the very things Angelou exposes.
The Republicans are simply looking for another agitprop to lead the easily influenced.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
And no, I do not see any real problems with the questions.
Angelou was a remarkable success story considering what she had to survive. Her work is predicated on her real-world struggles. And she is a rare affirmative voice in literature. People think we must pretend that kids are innocents who cannot be exposed to shocking realities. Firstly, this is the age of the Internet----I think, rightly or wrongly, the kids know this stuff already. Secondly, we as a society are working to confront the very things Angelou exposes.
If this was in an English class where her work was being read, then these would be
absolutely reasonable things to discuss. But in a
math class, they are out of context and just there for *shock value. Imagine if a conservative math teacher had questions about how many innocent people get shot in drive-bys, or how many home invasions are foiled by homeowners with guns. While they could make "legitimate" math questions, the ideological reasons for putting them there are not justified.
*Like a 4 year old saying "poop". "He-he, we got the word 'pimp' in a math question!!!!"
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 01:04:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
And no, I do not see any real problems with the questions.
Angelou was a remarkable success story considering what she had to survive. Her work is predicated on her real-world struggles. And she is a rare affirmative voice in literature. People think we must pretend that kids are innocents who cannot be exposed to shocking realities. Firstly, this is the age of the Internet----I think, rightly or wrongly, the kids know this stuff already. Secondly, we as a society are working to confront the very things Angelou exposes.
If this was in an English class where her work was being read, then these would be absolutely reasonable things to discuss. But in a math class, they are out of context and just there for *shock value. Imagine if a conservative math teacher had questions about how many innocent people get shot in drive-bys, or how many home invasions are foiled by homeowners with guns. While they could make "legitimate" math questions, the ideological reasons for putting them there are not justified.
*Like a 4 year old saying "poop". "He-he, we got the word 'pimp' in a math question!!!!"
This is where it derails, Marshy.
That is nothing at all like anything on the math worksheet. I am surprised you did not invoke the Nazis.
And why not combine two subjects on a single worksheet? What is the problem with that?
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 01:11:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2022, 01:04:28 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
And no, I do not see any real problems with the questions.
Angelou was a remarkable success story considering what she had to survive. Her work is predicated on her real-world struggles. And she is a rare affirmative voice in literature. People think we must pretend that kids are innocents who cannot be exposed to shocking realities. Firstly, this is the age of the Internet----I think, rightly or wrongly, the kids know this stuff already. Secondly, we as a society are working to confront the very things Angelou exposes.
If this was in an English class where her work was being read, then these would be absolutely reasonable things to discuss. But in a math class, they are out of context and just there for *shock value. Imagine if a conservative math teacher had questions about how many innocent people get shot in drive-bys, or how many home invasions are foiled by homeowners with guns. While they could make "legitimate" math questions, the ideological reasons for putting them there are not justified.
*Like a 4 year old saying "poop". "He-he, we got the word 'pimp' in a math question!!!!"
This is where it derails, Marshy.
That is nothing at all like anything on the math worksheet. I am surprised you did not invoke the Nazis.
And why not combine two subjects on a single worksheet? What is the problem with that?
Well, if Marsh didn't, I can. Combining two subjects in a single worksheet in mathematics was a favored method of Nazi pedagogy, basically sliming in the desired content to dress up the arithmetic. These thigs are called "word problems", I believe :
QuoteIn 1934 the MR commissioned a Handbook for Teachers with the title "Mathematics in
the Service of National Socialist Education". The editor of the Handbook, the teacher Adolf
Dorner, wrote in it, when in appeared in 1935:
This handbook methodically strives to hammer into the people the basic facts
that determine the policy of the government.13
The Handbook had many assignments of military character but also of the following:
Problem from A. Dorner (ed. 1935): Mathematik im Dienste der nationalpoli-
tischen Erziehung (Mathematics in the Service of National Socialist Education)
This collection was commissioned by the "Mathematischer Reichsverband" (Reich Mathematical
Association), where the pure mathematician Georg Hamel was the "Führer"
"Assignment 97.: A mentally ill person costs 4 German marks (RM) a day, a cripple 5,50 RM, a
criminal 3,50 RM. In many cases a civil servant has only 4 RM per day, a public employee barely
3,50 RM, an unskilled worker not yet 2 RM per head of the family. (a) represent these figures
graphically.
According to cautious estimates there are 300 000 mentally ill persons, epileptics etc. in nursing
homes. (b) home many loans for young families at 1000 RM without refund1 could be spent from
this money each year?" (42)
Footnote 1: For each child that is born alive in the marriage one fourth of the original loan is relinquished.
Of course, this kind of assignments looks almost criminal today, with us looking back at
the period and with our knowledge of Auschwitz.
From https://publimath.univ-irem.fr/numerisation/ACF/ACF08076/ACF08076.pdf (https://publimath.univ-irem.fr/numerisation/ACF/ACF08076/ACF08076.pdf)
Riiiiiiight, Angelou is like Nazi pedagogy. Just like CRT is like Nazi pedagogy.
Literature + math on a school worksheet = Fascist propaganda.
One American News is calling, guys!
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 02:05:17 PM
Riiiiiiight, Angelou is like Nazi pedagogy. Just like CRT is like Nazi pedagogy.
Literature + math on a school worksheet = Fascist propaganda.
One American News is calling, guys!
The method is the same. Full stop.
These are "word problems". Must be literature then. Which literature?
It's all consciousness raising. Been there, done that.
Full stop, huh?
Don't think so. I think the sentence continues.
What's wrong with "raising" kids' "consciousness," anyway?
Newsmax survives off paranoia and gross hyperbole. You will be greeted warmly there.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 02:22:54 PM
Full stop, huh?
Don't think so. I think the sentence continues.
What's wrong with "raising" kids' "consciousness," anyway?
Newsmax survives off paranoia and gross hyperbole. You will be greeted warmly there.
We disagree about substance, fundamentally. It's healthy to get used to disagreement.
You should be very healthy then, my friend.
I could be convinced, BTW, if anyone can offer any real problem with the content of the worksheet in question.
I do wonder what the reaction would have been if said worksheet included facts about Abraham Lincoln or Beethoven----or maybe Napoleon or World War II?
Combining two subjects in a single worksheet in mathematics was a favored method of Nazi pedagogy, basically sliming in the desired content to dress up the arithmetic. These thigs are called "word problems", I believe :
QuoteIn 1934 the MR commissioned a Handbook for Teachers with the title "Mathematics in
the Service of National Socialist Education". The editor of the Handbook, the teacher Adolf
Dorner, wrote in it, when in appeared in 1935:
This handbook methodically strives to hammer into the people the basic facts
that determine the policy of the government.13
The Handbook had many assignments of military character but also of the following:
Problem from A. Dorner (ed. 1935): Mathematik im Dienste der nationalpoli-
tischen Erziehung (Mathematics in the Service of National Socialist Education)
This collection was commissioned by the "Mathematischer Reichsverband" (Reich Mathematical
Association), where the pure mathematician Georg Hamel was the "Führer"
"Assignment 97.: A mentally ill person costs 4 German marks (RM) a day, a cripple 5,50 RM, a
criminal 3,50 RM. In many cases a civil servant has only 4 RM per day, a public employee barely
3,50 RM, an unskilled worker not yet 2 RM per head of the family. (a) represent these figures
graphically.
According to cautious estimates there are 300 000 mentally ill persons, epileptics etc. in nursing
homes. (b) home many loans for young families at 1000 RM without refund1 could be spent from
this money each year?" (42)
Footnote 1: For each child that is born alive in the marriage one fourth of the original loan is relinquished.
Of course, this kind of assignments looks almost criminal today, with us looking back at
the period and with our knowledge of Auschwitz.
From https://publimath.univ-irem.fr/numerisation/ACF/ACF08076/ACF08076.pdf (https://publimath.univ-irem.fr/numerisation/ACF/ACF08076/ACF08076.pdf)
[/quote]
Same with the commies:
Try North Korea
Question 1:
QuoteDuring the Fatherland Liberation War [North Korea's official name for the Korean War] the brave uncles of Korean People's Army killed 265 American Imperial bastards in the first battle. In the second battle they killed 70 more bastards than they had in the first battle. How many bastards did they kill in the second battle? How many bastards did they kill altogether?
Question 2:
QuoteSouth Korean boys, who are fighting against the American imperialist wolves and their henchmen, handed out 45 bundles of leaflets with 150 leaflets in each bundle. They also stuck 50 bundles with 50 leaflets in each bundle. How many leaflets were used?
https://theworld.org/stories/2013-04-24/can-you-solve-north-korean-math (https://theworld.org/stories/2013-04-24/can-you-solve-north-korean-math)
Along those same lines, the Soviets were really big on promoting literacy. Therefore . . .
Quote from: ergative on April 21, 2022, 03:17:55 PM
Along those same lines, the Soviets were really big on promoting literacy. Therefore . . .
Quote[In 1923] the curriculum was changed radically. Independent subjects, such as reading, writing, arithmetic, the mother tongue, foreign languages, history, geography, literature or science were abolished. Instead school programmes were subdivided into "complex themes", such as "the life and labour of the family in village and town" for the first year or "scientific organisation of labour" for the 7th year of education.
QuoteInitial pro-literacy propaganda efforts included instituting spaces in villages, particularly, that would facilitate the spread of literacy through the countryside. For example, in the early 1920s, Bolsheviks built "Red Rooms," reading rooms in villages across Russia, to serve as propaganda centers by which texts sent by the Party were disseminated to local communities.
QuoteIn the pro-literacy propaganda campaigns within trade Unions, the Party-line contained in pamphlets and other pieces of propaganda focused on "true literacy" as the ideal literacy level for workers
"Run, spot, run" differs from "kill the expropriators".
I think this is an archetypal example of correlation without causation and an archetypal example of gross hyperbole.
If one has to exaggerate this badly to make a point, one does not have a point to make.
Quote from: dismalist on April 21, 2022, 06:36:43 PM
"Run, spot, run" differs from "kill the expropriators".
That's kind of my point. What degree of similarity are you trying to draw here between authoritarian regimes and educational strategies? The below leads me to believe you're going for maximal generality.
Quote from: dismalist on April 21, 2022, 03:10:03 PM
Combining two subjects in a single worksheet in mathematics was a favored method of Nazi pedagogy.
But teaching across the curriculum is hardly the same as using word problems to justify genocide. So:
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 21, 2022, 07:01:49 PM
If one has to exaggerate this badly to make a point, one does not have a point to make.
Quote from: ergative on April 22, 2022, 01:32:28 AM
But teaching across the curriculum is hardly the same as using word problems to justify genocide.
"Teaching across the curriculum" is an education theory like "learning styles". Both of them suffer from the idea that it's much easier to come up with supposed scenarios in some directions than in others. Even if "learning styles" worked, it would be basically impossible to make all content accessible in all all learning styles. Similarly, math and reading are probably the subjects that show up most in other areas, mainly because they are basic
skills. Content that consists of factual information, which is typical in many other subjects, doesn't have any natural reason to
appear in other subjects. So shoehorning factoids from subjects into other ones often stands out as completely contrived and unnatural (as in these examples) and so they invite all kinds of abuses of the idea. (Turning the place someone was born into a
multiple choice algebra question is innocuous, but pointless.)
dismalist, you went off the deep end there.
"Nazi's drink milk! Don't let Timmy be a Nazi! OJ (oops) only!"
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 04:46:52 AM
(Turning the place someone was born into a multiple choice algebra question is innocuous, but pointless.)
Disagree. Teachers do this all the time. One obvious benefit is less drill/rote homework or class time for students when this is done. Many good teachers then use the time saved to focus on deeper learning /discussions of material.
There is benefit, and absolutely no harm if it is not outrageous indoctrination of the sort dismalist cited.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 06:43:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 04:46:52 AM
(Turning the place someone was born into a multiple choice algebra question is innocuous, but pointless.)
Disagree. Teachers do this all the time. One obvious benefit is less drill/rote homework or class time for students when this is done. Many good teachers then use the time saved to focus on deeper learning /discussions of material.
There is benefit, and absolutely no harm if it is not outrageous indoctrination of the sort dismalist cited.
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 06:43:50 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 04:46:52 AM
(Turning the place someone was born into a multiple choice algebra question is innocuous, but pointless.)
Disagree. Teachers do this all the time. One obvious benefit is less drill/rote homework or class time for students when this is done. Many good teachers then use the time saved to focus on deeper learning /discussions of material.
There is benefit, and absolutely no harm if it is not outrageous indoctrination of the sort dismalist cited.
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Sure.
"Be a hard worker Jimmy"
"Be kind, rewind"
"As ye sow so shall ye reap"
"Remember the Golden Rule"
"Vote!"
And in primary grades, the all important "Keep your hands to yourself"
That's the problem with throwing words around as if they mean only what you want them to mean, like Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty.
Do you wear clothes and relieve yourself in bathrooms and rest rooms? Good for you. You were indoctrinated.
So all the lefty faculty need to do is tell the public 'Now that we've established that moral indoctrination has always been part of the job, you can trust us. Let us indoctrinate your children, because we are trained in our fields, and we love your kids. And we'll even let you know when we're done changing their gender.'
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Marshy, can you be specific about the "indoctrination" you are observing here?
I see a literature lesson combined with a math lesson. Angelou (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qviM_GnJbOM) is a great poet for kids, BTW. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdffxj7pNE) I'll say it again: What possible objection could anyone have to Angelou unless one is A) a racist, B) a chauvinist, C) anti-poetry, or D) reactionary without real thought?
If these two subjects were separated, would these lessons still be "indoctrination?"
Heck, if they had combined poetry and math when I was a kid I probably would have done much better at math.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2022, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Marshy, can you be specific about the "indoctrination" you are observing here?
I see a literature lesson combined with a math lesson. Angelou (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qviM_GnJbOM) is a great poet for kids, BTW. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdffxj7pNE) I'll say it again: What possible objection could anyone have to Angelou unless one is A) a racist, B) a chauvinist, C) anti-poetry, or D) reactionary without real thought?
If these two subjects were separated, would these lessons still be "indoctrination?"
Heck, if they had combined poetry and math when I was a kid I probably would have done much better at math.
Marshwiggle doesn't think a math class should mention that she was sexually abused by a family member when she was a child, or that she worked as a pimp, stripper, etc.
How that rises to indoctrination, I'm not sure--except that
I'd worry that (1) the presentation trivializes the issues, and (2) a cursory presentation of the subject (e.g. if some math instructor somewhere just adopted the worksheet without using it as part of a doubled class) does more to harm perceptions of Angelou, and of Black people in general. (But that, of course, is as nothing next to the sin of Politicizing Mathematics the Pure.)
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2022, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Marshy, can you be specific about the "indoctrination" you are observing here?
I see a literature lesson combined with a math lesson. Angelou (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qviM_GnJbOM) is a great poet for kids, BTW. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdffxj7pNE) I'll say it again: What possible objection could anyone have to Angelou unless one is A) a racist, B) a chauvinist, C) anti-poetry, or D) reactionary without real thought?
If these two subjects were separated, would these lessons still be "indoctrination?"
Heck, if they had combined poetry and math when I was a kid I probably would have done much better at math.
If I were you, I wouldn't bother myself. The answer has to do with abstruse theory that's understood by persons of moral inclination. You'd just get frustrated wrapping your brain around it.
There. How do you like it?
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2022, 10:52:47 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 22, 2022, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 22, 2022, 06:45:19 AM
Regular indoctrination, on the other hand, is perfectly OK.
Marshy, can you be specific about the "indoctrination" you are observing here?
I see a literature lesson combined with a math lesson. Angelou (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qviM_GnJbOM) is a great poet for kids, BTW. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdffxj7pNE) I'll say it again: What possible objection could anyone have to Angelou unless one is A) a racist, B) a chauvinist, C) anti-poetry, or D) reactionary without real thought?
If these two subjects were separated, would these lessons still be "indoctrination?"
Heck, if they had combined poetry and math when I was a kid I probably would have done much better at math.
Marshwiggle doesn't think a math class should mention that she was sexually abused by a family member when she was a child, or that she worked as a pimp, stripper, etc.
How that rises to indoctrination, I'm not sure--except that I'd worry that (1) the presentation trivializes the issues, and (2) a cursory presentation of the subject (e.g. if some math instructor somewhere just adopted the worksheet without using it as part of a doubled class) does more to harm perceptions of Angelou, and of Black people in general. (But that, of course, is as nothing next to the sin of Politicizing Mathematics the Pure.)
Any way you look at it, this doesn't seem like an appropriate math work sheet. Still, it's ludicrous to say that this has anything to do with CRT, or with CRT-informed efforts to indoctrinate K-12 students. And I say this as somebody who does not think that this sort of thing is a phantom threat, however badly it may be exaggerated for political purposes.
My guess would be that somebody mendaciously and maliciously accused this textbook producer of CRT, and the Governor, without checking any details, leaped into the fray. The sort of mindless hair-trigger reaction that has become depressingly common across the political spectrum. Although it's fair to say that Florida's state GOP leadership has a notably bad case of it.
Quote from: mahagonny on April 22, 2022, 11:00:12 AM
If I were you, I wouldn't bother myself. The answer has to do with abstruse theory that's understood by persons of moral inclination. You'd just get frustrated wrapping your brain around it.
There. How do you like it?
I'm not sure exactly what "it" is, but I am perfectly fine with "it," mainly because "persons of moral inclination" are often reactionary self-appointed censors of other people's business. They are welcome to their abstruse theories. I will stick to reality.
Let me say this once more: it was not appropriate. The author revised it the first time someone objected (it made headlines that I know of in 2013 and 2015 in different states). The old version bounces around on the web as all things do once they are out there. It is not hard at all to find the revised worksheet if you look at the link I posted from the author, which gave backstory for how it came to be in the first place. It WAS appropriate for what he was doing at the time in a HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.
What has occurred to a much greater extent than was true at the time was that this algebra topic is being taught much earlier in middle school.
Detail not readily available on most sites: https://asrainvestigates.substack.com/p/apologies-for-maya-angelou-math-worksheet?s=r
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:17:32 PM
Detail not readily available on most sites: https://asrainvestigates.substack.com/p/apologies-for-maya-angelou-math-worksheet?s=r
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:06:18 PM
Let me say this once more: it was not appropriate. The author revised it the first time someone objected (it made headlines that I know of in 2013 and 2015 in different states). The old version bounces around on the web as all things do once they are out there. It is not hard at all to find the revised worksheet if you look at the link I posted from the author, which gave backstory for how it came to be in the first place. It WAS appropriate for what he was doing at the time in a HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.
What has occurred to a much greater extent than was true at the time was that this algebra topic is being taught much earlier in middle school.
Revised, unrevised, this stuff is totally moronic. The math distracts from the woids and the woids distract from the math. Moronic at any age.
I no longer fear indoctrination, on account the math answers make the whole thing incomprehensible. Keep up the good works, authors and publishers! [Just gotta get the kids to learn some math somewhere.] I, a decidedly non-Catholic, recommend Catholic schools as a cost-effective solution.
ETA: Authors and publishers.
dismalist: a sheet like this is typically used to provide answers for a separate assignment. So I take a short Angelou quiz/assignment. The algebra sheet provides answers to check. If you know the Angelou stuff you can tell if you did the algebra incorrectly, and vice versa.
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:39:50 PM
dismalist: a sheet like this is typically used to provide answers for a separate assignment. So I take a short Angelou quiz/assignment. The algebra sheet provides answers to check. If you know the Angelou stuff you can tell if you did the algebra incorrectly, and vice versa.
If I fix the roof properly, then I can tell that I balanced my checkbook properly, and vice versa. Lovely!
I deplore the expression "I'm confused", but friend, I'm confused.
Sometimes people, even highly intelligent people, are simply stubborn when they have to admit they are wrong.
The SEL terror reminds me of the "Secular Humanism" controversy from the 1980's, I believe. Christians were upset that schools were teaching morality without Hell or the redemption of Jesus.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
G-d forbid that children learn how to cultivate conversation! The horror!
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 23, 2022, 03:25:47 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
G-d forbid that children learn how to cultivate conversation! The horror!
ciao: I just meant the two graphs. Agree about SEL and Secular Humanism. Being on a school board then was challenging, to say the least.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 22, 2022, 10:52:47 AM
Marshwiggle doesn't think a math class should mention that she was sexually abused by a family member when she was a child, or that she worked as a pimp, stripper, etc.
How that rises to indoctrination, I'm not sure--except that I'd worry that (1) the presentation trivializes the issues.
That's right. I don't think it belongs in a math class. I think you have it right; it's not so much
indoctrination as
trivialization. Do we really want the rape of an 8 year old to be just the background text for one question on a math worksheet?
It is tasteless at best.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:06:18 PM
Let me say this once more: it was not appropriate. The author revised it the first time someone objected (it made headlines that I know of in 2013 and 2015 in different states). The old version bounces around on the web as all things do once they are out there. It is not hard at all to find the revised worksheet if you look at the link I posted from the author, which gave backstory for how it came to be in the first place. It WAS appropriate for what he was doing at the time in a HIGH SCHOOL CLASS.
But the reason it "bounced around" for so long is that
other teachers who
did not have it in the context he did just picked it up and used it as is. That insensitivity and tone-deafness is something parents have a legitimate right to be offended by.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. You can find similar examples of poor use of graphs in all kinds of contexts. Authors don't pay any attention to the homework; that is farmed out as piecework to practically anyone who is breathing. It is all then put together by editorial assistants and others who know nothing about the math, and just want to get it done so it looks cool, without spelling and grammar mistakes.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 23, 2022, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. You can find similar examples of poor use of graphs in all kinds of contexts. Authors don't pay any attention to the homework; that is farmed out as piecework to practically anyone who is breathing. It is all then put together by editorial assistants and others who know nothing about the math, and just want to get it done so it looks cool, without spelling and grammar mistakes.
Yup! We need better math education. :-)
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
I think you have it right; it's not so much indoctrination as trivialization. Do we really want the rape of an 8 year old to be just the background text for one question on a math worksheet?
So now we are "trivializing" math, eh? Suuuuuuuuure, that's the issue. Makes perfect sense now. We learn something that some find controversial on a math worksheet and we never take math seriously again. It will be just too trivial in a world in which poets must survive racism and sexual abuse----who can think about math in a world like that?
You should have been a lawyer, Marshy. I don't think you would have been a good lawyer, but at least you could use your profession as an excuse for your contrarianism.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2022, 02:42:30 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
I think you have it right; it's not so much indoctrination as trivialization. Do we really want the rape of an 8 year old to be just the background text for one question on a math worksheet?
So now we are "trivializing" math, eh?
Uh. no. Trivializing rape of a child.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 23, 2022, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. You can find similar examples of poor use of graphs in all kinds of contexts. Authors don't pay any attention to the homework; that is farmed out as piecework to practically anyone who is breathing. It is all then put together by editorial assistants and others who know nothing about the math, and just want to get it done so it looks cool, without spelling and grammar mistakes.
What is interesting is that they took a topic that is in the news right now and framed it in such a way to make it a conversation about math.
So then, that becomes an interesting conversation about surveys and statistics. Who defined liberal, conservative, racist, not racist? Are these differences across groups meaningful? If they did the study again with a completely different group of people, would they get the same results?
Without getting into the nitty gritty about statistical significance and survey methodology, there are a lot of opportunities for critical thinking in that graphic and discussion.
Could we come up with a topic that was less controversial? Like preferred ice cream flavors across grades? Maybe.
But then that sort of trivializes the discussion. Instead of bringing in real world topics and finding ways to discuss them, we oversimplify.
I wonder what grade level that book was aimed at... and I'm too lazy to check. Kids after about 5th or 6th grade are aware enough to start having those conversations, paying attention to the news, and wondering about their world.
Quote from: dismalist on April 23, 2022, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 23, 2022, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. You can find similar examples of poor use of graphs in all kinds of contexts. Authors don't pay any attention to the homework; that is farmed out as piecework to practically anyone who is breathing. It is all then put together by editorial assistants and others who know nothing about the math, and just want to get it done so it looks cool, without spelling and grammar mistakes.
Yup! We need better math education. :-)
Looks like we need better English education, too.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 23, 2022, 02:57:52 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 23, 2022, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM
Last post: here are some examples of why material was rejected. Two are from the same algebra homework in a text.
I hate them both. First, because I really dislike the Implicite Bias survey in the first place. Second, not because the results are displayed, but rather that it is a perfect example of misusing a bar graph by not starting at the minimum score on the axis.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-dept-of-education-releases-4-examples-of-math-textbook-content-rejected-for-public-schools
But of course they did it that way! Otherwise it would be obvious how insignificant the differences are in absolute terms, which undermines the ideological narrative they want to provide. Math has nothing to do with it.
I'm going to respectfully disagree. You can find similar examples of poor use of graphs in all kinds of contexts. Authors don't pay any attention to the homework; that is farmed out as piecework to practically anyone who is breathing. It is all then put together by editorial assistants and others who know nothing about the math, and just want to get it done so it looks cool, without spelling and grammar mistakes.
What is interesting is that they took a topic that is in the news right now and framed it in such a way to make it a conversation about math.
So then, that becomes an interesting conversation about surveys and statistics. Who defined liberal, conservative, racist, not racist? Are these differences across groups meaningful? If they did the study again with a completely different group of people, would they get the same results?
Without getting into the nitty gritty about statistical significance and survey methodology, there are a lot of opportunities for critical thinking in that graphic and discussion.
Could we come up with a topic that was less controversial? Like preferred ice cream flavors across grades? Maybe.
But then that sort of trivializes the discussion. Instead of bringing in real world topics and finding ways to discuss them, we oversimplify.
I wonder what grade level that book was aimed at... and I'm too lazy to check. Kids after about 5th or 6th grade are aware enough to start having those conversations, paying attention to the news, and wondering about their world.
Second year algebra.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 23, 2022, 02:57:52 PM
I wonder what grade level that book was aimed at... and I'm too lazy to check. Kids after about 5th or 6th grade are aware enough to start having those conversations, paying attention to the news, and wondering about their world.
It is one of Blitzer's algebra books, I recognize that graphic. So it would definitely be for high school students. It's #103 in the chapter for the developmental math text and the introductory algebra text.
There is one paragraph at the introduction showing this as an application of polynomials and there are two questions in the chapter (the two in the screenshot). Everything else in the section is extremely standard polynomial work.
TBF, I don't like those problems (for other reasons) and didn't assign them when I taught out of the text. But it's beyond ridiculous to use it as a reason to reject the entire text.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 23, 2022, 02:42:30 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 23, 2022, 11:27:42 AM
I think you have it right; it's not so much indoctrination as trivialization. Do we really want the rape of an 8 year old to be just the background text for one question on a math worksheet?
So now we are "trivializing" math, eh?
Uh. no. Trivializing rape of a child.
Law school, Marshy. Keep plugging! I'm sure there are lots of ways to spin your objections.
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificient cities.
Quote from: nebo113 on April 24, 2022, 06:37:52 AM
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificent cities.
Assuming a distance of 700 miles, the trains meet at 437.77 miles, which takes them 8hrs 45 min. [There's some rounding error in there.] That's approximately at Cleveland, Ohio. [Speaking with W.C. Fields, I'd rather die than be in Cleveland. No, I'd rather be in Cleveland.]
A challenge of this problem is keeping the units of measurement straight. I watched them hawk-like, but still screwed it up at first. :-)
How I spent my weekend ... .
Just wondering: how many who have their knickers in a twist over books being used and not used in Florida's public schools, libraries would ever live in Florida? And how many have ever paid any tax to Florida beyond a food and beverage or gasoline tax during a visit. And how many are having any difficulty getting their kids into a woke math class? And how many will have difficulty getting access to these controversial books if they want to? A handful of states appear to be following the lead from Florida, or likely to, and as we all know, many more never will.
Quote from: mahagonny on April 25, 2022, 12:42:50 PM
Just wondering: how many who have their knickers in a twist over books being used and not used in Florida's public schools, libraries would ever live in Florida? And how many have ever paid any tax to Florida beyond a food and beverage or gasoline tax during a visit. And how many are having any difficulty getting their kids into a woke math class? And how many will have difficulty getting access to these controversial books if they want to? A handful of states appear to be following the lead from Florida, or likely to, and as we all know, many more never will.
That's why
federalism is the greatest!
Quote from: dismalist on April 25, 2022, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on April 24, 2022, 06:37:52 AM
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificent cities.
Assuming a distance of 700 miles, the trains meet at 437.77 miles, which takes them 8hrs 45 min. [There's some rounding error in there.] That's approximately at Cleveland, Ohio. [Speaking with W.C. Fields, I'd rather die than be in Cleveland. No, I'd rather be in Cleveland.]
A challenge of this problem is keeping the units of measurement straight. I watched them hawk-like, but still screwed it up at first. :-)
How I spent my weekend ... .
If this is Amtrak you are going to need to factor in the random delays and miscommunications which can sometimes double the length of your trip.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 25, 2022, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 25, 2022, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on April 24, 2022, 06:37:52 AM
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificent cities.
Assuming a distance of 700 miles, the trains meet at 437.77 miles, which takes them 8hrs 45 min. [There's some rounding error in there.] That's approximately at Cleveland, Ohio. [Speaking with W.C. Fields, I'd rather die than be in Cleveland. No, I'd rather be in Cleveland.]
A challenge of this problem is keeping the units of measurement straight. I watched them hawk-like, but still screwed it up at first. :-)
How I spent my weekend ... .
If this is Amtrak you are going to need to factor in the random delays and miscommunications which can sometimes double the length of your trip.
Looks like you want to make this into a
woke word problem! :-)
Quote from: dismalist on April 25, 2022, 02:18:33 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 25, 2022, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 25, 2022, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on April 24, 2022, 06:37:52 AM
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificent cities.
Assuming a distance of 700 miles, the trains meet at 437.77 miles, which takes them 8hrs 45 min. [There's some rounding error in there.] That's approximately at Cleveland, Ohio. [Speaking with W.C. Fields, I'd rather die than be in Cleveland. No, I'd rather be in Cleveland.]
A challenge of this problem is keeping the units of measurement straight. I watched them hawk-like, but still screwed it up at first. :-)
How I spent my weekend ... .
If this is Amtrak you are going to need to factor in the random delays and miscommunications which can sometimes double the length of your trip.
Looks like you want to make this into a woke word problem! :-)
Is Amtrak woke? I thought it was just dirty and quasi-incompetent.
Quote from: mahagonny on April 25, 2022, 12:42:50 PM
Just wondering: how many who have their knickers in a twist over books being used and not used in Florida's public schools, libraries would ever live in Florida? And how many have ever paid any tax to Florida beyond a food and beverage or gasoline tax during a visit. And how many are having any difficulty getting their kids into a woke math class? And how many will have difficulty getting access to these controversial books if they want to? A handful of states appear to be following the lead from Florida, or likely to, and as we all know, many more never will.
It really just depends on what Texas does. The reality of K-12 math is that (and DeSantis is correct about this) the publishers recycle in several ways. The Blitzer book kiana cited is ostensibly a College textbook, but the same hw problems and writing shows up in multiple versions of the Algebra I, Algebra II, Precalculus, Beginning Algebra, Intermediate Algebra and College Algebra versions by an author. The reason I mention Texas is that it is still a single textbook adoption state. To be competitive and have a chance the publisher MUST have something Texas will accept.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 25, 2022, 03:49:06 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 25, 2022, 12:42:50 PM
Just wondering: how many who have their knickers in a twist over books being used and not used in Florida's public schools, libraries would ever live in Florida? And how many have ever paid any tax to Florida beyond a food and beverage or gasoline tax during a visit. And how many are having any difficulty getting their kids into a woke math class? And how many will have difficulty getting access to these controversial books if they want to? A handful of states appear to be following the lead from Florida, or likely to, and as we all know, many more never will.
It really just depends on what Texas does. The reality of K-12 math is that (and DeSantis is correct about this) the publishers recycle in several ways. The Blitzer book kiana cited is ostensibly a College textbook, but the same hw problems and writing shows up in multiple versions of the Algebra I, Algebra II, Precalculus, Beginning Algebra, Intermediate Algebra and College Algebra versions by an author. The reason I mention Texas is that it is still a single textbook adoption state. To be competitive and have a chance the publisher MUST have something Texas will accept.
I see. But is someone worried that they will not be able to teach algebra in such a way that the students can master the skills? I scored 100 on the statewide final exam in high school algebra many years ago. I cannot imagine how the field has changed. It seems to be abstract, if that's the correct word. Pretty much apart from social justice topics of today.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 25, 2022, 01:43:53 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 25, 2022, 11:54:58 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on April 24, 2022, 06:37:52 AM
When I was in K12, back in the days of slates and chalk, our math problems involved one train leaving New York going west at 50 mph and another train leaving Chicago heading east going 30 mph. When would they pass each other? Transportation, geography, math all rolled into one unfathomable mess. My trains always crashed. I have spent my life in therapy over all those innocent dead people, killed because I was just a lil' suthern gurl and drifted off into never never land wondering about those magnificent cities.
Assuming a distance of 700 miles, the trains meet at 437.77 miles, which takes them 8hrs 45 min. [There's some rounding error in there.] That's approximately at Cleveland, Ohio. [Speaking with W.C. Fields, I'd rather die than be in Cleveland. No, I'd rather be in Cleveland.]
A challenge of this problem is keeping the units of measurement straight. I watched them hawk-like, but still screwed it up at first. :-)
How I spent my weekend ... .
If this is Amtrak you are going to need to factor in the random delays and miscommunications which can sometimes double the length of your trip.
And the fact that to get to NYC you have to change at one of two or three spots to get all the way through.
My favorite is Ann Arbor. Zingernagels' has excellent cheese omelettes...
M.
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
It is such a pity that these things are decided at the State level, though better than at the national level. Were they decided at the level of the individual school, with school choice for parents, we would hardly hear of these matters as political matters.
Opinions differ.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have
some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 02:25:05 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
That's why students need to be streamed so that the ones who need that support can get it, but the ones who don't can spend their time
learning more MATH. Bogging everyone down to the lowest common denominator in
any subject makes the overall performance of the education system much worse than it needs to be.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 02:25:05 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
That's why students need to be streamed so that the ones who need that support can get it, but the ones who don't can spend their time learning more MATH. Bogging everyone down to the lowest common denominator in any subject makes the overall performance of the education system much worse than it needs to be.
That's why we need school choice, to test if any of this stuff works!
We could test streaming, too!
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 02:25:05 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
That's why students need to be streamed so that the ones who need that support can get it, but the ones who don't can spend their time learning more MATH. Bogging everyone down to the lowest common denominator in any subject makes the overall performance of the education system much worse than it needs to be.
marshwiggle, I'm not talking about "rating how you feel" with the mindset materials. They are about how you can figure things out even if you are stuck. Calculus students in the US
are streamed. Yet, in one well done study the average length of time a student would work on a problem when stuck was less than 60 seconds. And that was at a premier university. Admittedly, this is in major part a fault of instruction, particularly how tests are designed.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 08:17:10 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 02:25:05 PM
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
That's why students need to be streamed so that the ones who need that support can get it, but the ones who don't can spend their time learning more MATH. Bogging everyone down to the lowest common denominator in any subject makes the overall performance of the education system much worse than it needs to be.
marshwiggle, I'm not talking about "rating how you feel" with the mindset materials. They are about how you can figure things out even if you are stuck. Calculus students in the US are streamed. Yet, in one well done study the average length of time a student would work on a problem when stuck was less than 60 seconds. And that was at a premier university. Admittedly, this is in major part a fault of instruction, particularly how tests are designed.
I've read "Mindset" and I like Carol Dweck's stuff. I think it makes a lot of sense. What I was reacting to was the example given of the
textbook asking students how they
feel. That's not remotely related to mindset, and it's rubbish.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 02:25:05 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 28, 2022, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 28, 2022, 01:08:29 PM
More analysis here. The SEL I'm familiar with in math are mindset discussions along the lines that even if you don't understand something easily you can get better.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Quote
Goldstein says the rejected textbooks addressed social-emotional learning in a variety of ways. "Some of them were quite awkward," she says. "There was one fifth grade math textbook from McGraw-Hill that had sort of a simple fractions question, and then right underneath it said, 'How do you understand your feelings?'"
Other social-emotional lessons were more seamlessly integrated. One high school textbook asked students to rate from 1 t0 4 how much they struggled with a concept.
The most charitable thing I can say is that it's possible if they restrict this to remedial classes where the kids are truly struggling with math, it might have some value. It would be totally useless and annoying for good students.
The mindset stuff I mentioned is useful at all ability levels. Many students who are smart think they've hit their ceiling in some content areas when in reality they have not.
Exactly. "Good" students aren't inherently smarter. They do have more strategies for dealing with problems when they get stuck, whether feeling anxious because they aren't getting it, or methods for breaking down a complex problem, or strategies for trying to learn something new.
The more we can teach students that they are what they
do and
try rather than some inherent "born this way" set of characteristics, the more success we will have as a society.
And, teaching students that it's okay to struggle and work through things. In a similar vein, I had a very unhappy childhood. People told me that if I were "good person" I could get through it. Well, actually, it took a lot of hard emotional work and therapy and lessons learned the hard way and yeah, I got through it.
Still, I spent years thinking I wasn't a "good person" because I needed to do the emotional work and therapy and have some bad relationships in order to get through it. I wasn't a "good person" because I couldn't automatically translate from one abusive relationship into another healthy one.
It's a bit off topic, but I think the more we can make math more practical and relevant to students the more they will find their way to understanding. One of the issues we have had at our place is that students come into upper division Bio, Econ, Psychometrics and other quant lit courses and are just lost because the MATH prefix courses they are required to take are divorced from and not preparing them for the kinds of numeracy they actually need. I recognize the difference between the Angelou example and Biostats, but an emphasis on numeracy and quantitative literacy in context does serve students well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-keep-students-in-stem-fields-lets-weed-out-the-weed-out-math-classes/
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 29, 2022, 08:19:39 AM
I recognize the difference between the Angelou example and Biostats, but an emphasis on numeracy and quantitative literacy in context does serve students well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-keep-students-in-stem-fields-lets-weed-out-the-weed-out-math-classes/
The difference between the Angelou example and Biostats is
precisely about context. The Angelou makes the math completely
arbitrarily connected, while the article about is making the opposite point, that teaching the math
where it arises naturally in the discipline makes it better for students.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 08:47:10 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 29, 2022, 08:19:39 AM
I recognize the difference between the Angelou example and Biostats, but an emphasis on numeracy and quantitative literacy in context does serve students well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-keep-students-in-stem-fields-lets-weed-out-the-weed-out-math-classes/
The difference between the Angelou example and Biostats is precisely about context. The Angelou makes the math completely arbitrarily connected, while the article about is making the opposite point, that teaching the math where it arises naturally in the discipline makes it better for students.
See, if
this was the basis for picking math books, and not culture war crap, I think we could all agree. Let experts who actually understand the science of teaching and learning evaluate textbooks based on what will best help students learn. Keep politicians out of the process.
Quote from: Puget on April 29, 2022, 09:03:18 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 08:47:10 AM
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 29, 2022, 08:19:39 AM
I recognize the difference between the Angelou example and Biostats, but an emphasis on numeracy and quantitative literacy in context does serve students well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-keep-students-in-stem-fields-lets-weed-out-the-weed-out-math-classes/
The difference between the Angelou example and Biostats is precisely about context. The Angelou makes the math completely arbitrarily connected, while the article about is making the opposite point, that teaching the math where it arises naturally in the discipline makes it better for students.
See, if this was the basis for picking math books, and not culture war crap, I think we could all agree. Let experts who actually understand the science of teaching and learning evaluate textbooks based on what will best help students learn. Keep politicians out of the process.
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology. (If you can show me research that math attached to random factoids from some area that has nothing to do with math enhances learning, then go ahead.)
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education. ("Whole language" is an obvious example; phonics fell out of favour even though there was lots of evidence of its value. Same for learning algorithms for solving math problems.) Basically anything
prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important
in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow
will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem
without raising their competence.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology.
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education.
Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Back up anything you've posted there, Marshy. Prove what you post. I dare'ya.
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
This isn't "radical conservative" in the least. There have been discussions in the news about the "problem" that students in French immersion have a higher average than students in "normal" classes. (Not surprising, given that the engaged parents are more likely to put their kids in more challenging programs.)
Those French immersion parents are definitely a right-wing bunch; you know how popular second languages are with those radical conservatives.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
This isn't "radical conservative" in the least. There have been discussions in the news about the "problem" that students in French immersion have a higher average than students in "normal" classes. (Not surprising, given that the engaged parents are more likely to put their kids in more challenging programs.)
Those French immersion parents are definitely a right-wing bunch; you know how popular second languages are with those radical conservatives.
Not the issue you opined about.
You still have not backed up a single thing you posted.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
This isn't "radical conservative" in the least. There have been discussions in the news about the "problem" that students in French immersion have a higher average than students in "normal" classes. (Not surprising, given that the engaged parents are more likely to put their kids in more challenging programs.)
Those French immersion parents are definitely a right-wing bunch; you know how popular second languages are with those radical conservatives.
Not the issue you opined about.
You still have not backed up a single thing you posted.
Four things you need to know about the new reading wars (https://hechingerreport.org/four-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-reading-wars/)
Quote
"The fact is that most kids can learn to read with little or no phonics," Shanahan said. Indeed, many kids figure out how to read on their own before reading instruction even begins at school. However, a minority of students won't learn to read without phonics and many students would read significantly worse without phonics.
The best argument for phonics is that no one is harmed by it and a large subset of students is helped by receiving explicit phonics instruction from kindergarten through second grade.
Parents almost always say there are problems, but not at their school. It was a result year after year in a survey conducted by an educational organization (Phi Delta Kappa) housed at Indiana University, and is still tue in today's culture wars: https://www.npr.org/2022/04/29/1094782769/parent-poll-school-culture-wars
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
This isn't "radical conservative" in the least. There have been discussions in the news about the "problem" that students in French immersion have a higher average than students in "normal" classes. (Not surprising, given that the engaged parents are more likely to put their kids in more challenging programs.)
Those French immersion parents are definitely a right-wing bunch; you know how popular second languages are with those radical conservatives.
Not the issue you opined about.
You still have not backed up a single thing you posted.
Four things you need to know about the new reading wars (https://hechingerreport.org/four-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-reading-wars/)
Quote
"The fact is that most kids can learn to read with little or no phonics," Shanahan said. Indeed, many kids figure out how to read on their own before reading instruction even begins at school. However, a minority of students won't learn to read without phonics and many students would read significantly worse without phonics.
The best argument for phonics is that no one is harmed by it and a large subset of students is helped by receiving explicit phonics instruction from kindergarten through second grade.
No, Marshy.
This:
Quote
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology.
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education.
Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Quote from: Istiblennius on April 29, 2022, 08:19:39 AM
It's a bit off topic, but I think the more we can make math more practical and relevant to students the more they will find their way to understanding. One of the issues we have had at our place is that students come into upper division Bio, Econ, Psychometrics and other quant lit courses and are just lost because the MATH prefix courses they are required to take are divorced from and not preparing them for the kinds of numeracy they actually need. I recognize the difference between the Angelou example and Biostats, but an emphasis on numeracy and quantitative literacy in context does serve students well.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-keep-students-in-stem-fields-lets-weed-out-the-weed-out-math-classes/
Yes. Ish.
It's a lot easier to have a general math class that works for a lot of different majors so students build the broader skills. You can schedule multiple sections at various times.
Then, when they get into their bio, econ, etc sections, they can focus on applying those skills and learning the content of the class than trying to learn the math and the content at the same time.
The content instructors want to teach content, not math. That doesn't mean they shouldn't expect to review some math from time to time, still, if you are trying to explain differential calculus from the beginning, instead of how you use those calculations in your field, then you are wasting a lot of class time.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 01:27:21 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 29, 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Because what you just posted sounds a lot like it came right out of the Radical Conservative Playbook.
This isn't "radical conservative" in the least. There have been discussions in the news about the "problem" that students in French immersion have a higher average than students in "normal" classes. (Not surprising, given that the engaged parents are more likely to put their kids in more challenging programs.)
Those French immersion parents are definitely a right-wing bunch; you know how popular second languages are with those radical conservatives.
Not the issue you opined about.
You still have not backed up a single thing you posted.
Four things you need to know about the new reading wars (https://hechingerreport.org/four-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-reading-wars/)
Quote
"The fact is that most kids can learn to read with little or no phonics," Shanahan said. Indeed, many kids figure out how to read on their own before reading instruction even begins at school. However, a minority of students won't learn to read without phonics and many students would read significantly worse without phonics.
The best argument for phonics is that no one is harmed by it and a large subset of students is helped by receiving explicit phonics instruction from kindergarten through second grade.
No, Marshy.
This:
Quote
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology.
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education.
Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Why aren't kids being taught to read? (https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2018/09/10/hard-words-why-american-kids-arent-being-taught-to-read)
Quote
Scientific research has shown how children learn to read and how they should be taught. But many educators don't know the science and, in some cases, actively resist it. As a result, millions of kids are being set up to fail.
The basic assumption that underlies typical reading instruction in many schools is that learning to read is a natural process, much like learning to talk. But decades of scientific research has revealed that reading doesn't come naturally. The human brain isn't wired to read. Kids must be explicitly taught how to connect sounds with letters — phonics.
"There are thousands of studies," said Louisa Moats, an education consultant and researcher who has been teaching and studying reading since the 1970s. "This is the most studied aspect of human learning."
But this research hasn't made its way into many elementary school classrooms. The prevailing approaches to reading instruction in American schools are inconsistent with basic things scientists have discovered about how children learn to read. Many educators don't know the science, and in some cases actively resist it. The resistance is the result of beliefs about reading that have been deeply held in the educational establishment for decades, even though those beliefs have been proven wrong by scientists over and over again.
Most teachers nationwide are not being taught reading science in their teacher preparation programs because many deans and faculty in colleges of education either don't know the science or dismiss it.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 30, 2022, 12:35:32 PM
...
Why aren't kids being taught to read? (https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2018/09/10/hard-words-why-american-kids-arent-being-taught-to-read)
Quote
Scientific research has shown how children learn to read and how they should be taught. But many educators don't know the science and, in some cases, actively resist it. As a result, millions of kids are being set up to fail.
The basic assumption that underlies typical reading instruction in many schools is that learning to read is a natural process, much like learning to talk. But decades of scientific research has revealed that reading doesn't come naturally. The human brain isn't wired to read. Kids must be explicitly taught how to connect sounds with letters — phonics.
"There are thousands of studies," said Louisa Moats, an education consultant and researcher who has been teaching and studying reading since the 1970s. "This is the most studied aspect of human learning."
But this research hasn't made its way into many elementary school classrooms. The prevailing approaches to reading instruction in American schools are inconsistent with basic things scientists have discovered about how children learn to read. Many educators don't know the science, and in some cases actively resist it. The resistance is the result of beliefs about reading that have been deeply held in the educational establishment for decades, even though those beliefs have been proven wrong by scientists over and over again.
Most teachers nationwide are not being taught reading science in their teacher preparation programs because many deans and faculty in colleges of education either don't know the science or dismiss it.
That article is certainly good and informative. However, it is important to realize that "following the science" is not always a clear answer. A citation in the article is
Quotethe dean said to her, "Is this your science or my science?"
What's wanted is mechanisms to test these propositions, and that at the lowest hierarchical level possible. School choice would do the trick nicely.
Let's not put the blame on Schools of Education, for they follow what they can get away with.
Who will educate the educators?
Quote from: dismalist on April 30, 2022, 01:26:06 PM
Let's not put the blame on Schools of Education, for they follow what they can get away with.
I blame them and institutional reform should include them (including accreditation agencies) so they can't get away with quite as much.
Quote from: Anon1787 on April 30, 2022, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 30, 2022, 01:26:06 PM
Let's not put the blame on Schools of Education, for they follow what they can get away with.
I blame them and institutional reform should include them (including accreditation agencies) so they can't get away with quite as much.
We don't have Schools of Choosing Supermarkets and Grocery Stores. Free choice, like we have among supermarkets and grocery stores, would do the trick.
Who will reform the reformers? :-)
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 30, 2022, 12:35:32 PM
You still have not backed up a single thing you posted.
Four things you need to know about the new reading wars (https://hechingerreport.org/four-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-reading-wars/)
Quote
"The fact is that most kids can learn to read with little or no phonics," Shanahan said. Indeed, many kids figure out how to read on their own before reading instruction even begins at school. However, a minority of students won't learn to read without phonics and many students would read significantly worse without phonics.
The best argument for phonics is that no one is harmed by it and a large subset of students is helped by receiving explicit phonics instruction from kindergarten through second grade.
[/quote]
No, Marshy.
This:
Quote
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology.
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education.
Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
[/quote]
Why aren't kids being taught to read? (https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2018/09/10/hard-words-why-american-kids-arent-being-taught-to-read)
Quote
Scientific research has shown how children learn to read and how they should be taught. But many educators don't know the science and, in some cases, actively resist it. As a result, millions of kids are being set up to fail.
The basic assumption that underlies typical reading instruction in many schools is that learning to read is a natural process, much like learning to talk. But decades of scientific research has revealed that reading doesn't come naturally. The human brain isn't wired to read. Kids must be explicitly taught how to connect sounds with letters — phonics.
"There are thousands of studies," said Louisa Moats, an education consultant and researcher who has been teaching and studying reading since the 1970s. "This is the most studied aspect of human learning."
But this research hasn't made its way into many elementary school classrooms. The prevailing approaches to reading instruction in American schools are inconsistent with basic things scientists have discovered about how children learn to read. Many educators don't know the science, and in some cases actively resist it. The resistance is the result of beliefs about reading that have been deeply held in the educational establishment for decades, even though those beliefs have been proven wrong by scientists over and over again.
Most teachers nationwide are not being taught reading science in their teacher preparation programs because many deans and faculty in colleges of education either don't know the science or dismiss it.
[/quote]
Still not it, Marshy.
I've got you with your pants down. There is nothing suggesting ideology in the classroom, simply radical conservatives leading gullible people with propaganda.
You laid out a stereotype.
You know what I challenged you to show and you are trying a series of run-arounds.
Your link is to an article about the failure of educational training to teach phonetics. And there are several voices in the article opposed to phonetic teaching----and I know they have research backing them up. (https://www.readinghorizons.com/reading-strategies/teaching/phonics-instruction/reading-wars-phonics-vs-whole-language-reading-instruction) Your link is an article that takes an angle, and not what I challenged you to prove.
Just stop.
Admit that you simply lapsed into a stereotypical rant from the rightwing peanut gallery.
Quote from: dismalist on April 30, 2022, 02:30:10 PM
We don't have Schools of Choosing Supermarkets and Grocery Stores. Free choice, like we have among supermarkets and grocery stores, would do the trick.
Who will reform the reformers? :-)
No, it won't any more than free choice of doctors or lawyers is enough to do the trick. Schools of education, like medical and law schools, have a large say in determining what constitutes being a qualified practitioner.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
But the "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology. (If you can show me research that math attached to random factoids from some area that has nothing to do with math enhances learning, then go ahead.)
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education. ("Whole language" is an obvious example; phonics fell out of favour even though there was lots of evidence of its value. Same for learning algorithms for solving math problems.) Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Right. Because "education wonks" are the ones behind all the Don't Say Gay, Anti-CRT, Anti-Ethnic Studies and similar legislation. Those are really good for kids' self-esteem and learning. /eyeroll.
Quote from: Anon1787 on April 30, 2022, 05:09:26 PM
Quote from: dismalist on April 30, 2022, 02:30:10 PM
We don't have Schools of Choosing Supermarkets and Grocery Stores. Free choice, like we have among supermarkets and grocery stores, would do the trick.
Who will reform the reformers? :-)
No, it won't any more than free choice of doctors or lawyers is enough to do the trick. Schools of education, like medical and law schools, have a large say in determining what constitutes being a qualified practitioner.
Once upon a time one didn't have to go to Law School to be a lawyer. There was an apprenticeship. Abe Lincoln and such. We could still have Bar Exams if we wanted.
In a sense, Education Schools can be far more dangerous than Medical Schools! ::-)
Quote from: dismalist on April 30, 2022, 05:54:42 PM
Once upon a time one didn't have to go to Law School to be a lawyer. There was an apprenticeship. Abe Lincoln and such. We could still have Bar Exams if we wanted.
In a sense, Education Schools can be far more dangerous than Medical Schools! ::-)
At least you admit that giving consumers more choice is not enough. One cannot ignore influence of those in charge of accreditation and certification even in a mostly deregulated system.
Quote from: ciao_yall on April 30, 2022, 05:35:59 PM
Right. Because "education wonks" are the ones behind all the Don't Say Gay, Anti-CRT, Anti-Ethnic Studies and similar legislation. Those are really good for kids' self-esteem and learning. /eyeroll.
It was ironic when several months ago one of my colleagues sent out a message urging faculty to attend a meeting to defend the introduction of the new theology (CRT-inspired materials) in the school system from attacks against it that were going to be made by a Christian group.
QuoteAt least you admit that giving consumers more choice is not enough. One cannot ignore influence of those in charge of accreditation and certification even in a mostly deregulated system.
I admit no such thing!
Any accreditation and certification is up to us, and if we didn't do it through government policy, it would happen by individual choice.
But I'm not looking for the holy grail here, either.
Honestly, I'm tired of "choice." Chicken: cutlets big and small; breasts boned and deboned; ground 97% fat and 83% fat; fryers; broilers; bakers; breaded and unbreaded...... Canned tomatoes: diced; whole; low sodium; with peppers; with spices. And let's not even get into cereals. Cell phone plans. Internet plans. To stream or not to stream.
Dismalist, I'm not trying to make fun of you, but sometimes 'choice' is overdone, an excuse to sell us something new or confuse it.
And I so remember the original days of and was the beneficiary of "Freedom of Choice" in schools. Four choices: white segregated; black segregated, segregation academies, or close the public schools completely as in Prince Edward County, Virginia, in 1959.
Quote from: nebo113 on May 01, 2022, 06:22:04 AM
Honestly, I'm tired of "choice." Chicken: cutlets big and small; breasts boned and deboned; ground 97% fat and 83% fat; fryers; broilers; bakers; breaded and unbreaded...... Canned tomatoes: diced; whole; low sodium; with peppers; with spices. And let's not even get into cereals. Cell phone plans. Internet plans. To stream or not to stream.
Dismalist, I'm not trying to make fun of you, but sometimes 'choice' is overdone, an excuse to sell us something new or confuse it.
And I so remember the original days of and was the beneficiary of "Freedom of Choice" in schools. Four choices: white segregated; black segregated, segregation academies, or close the public schools completely as in Prince Edward County, Virginia, in 1959.
That was county policy, aided and abetted by the State of Virginia, not individual choice. Government did that.
'Twas different up north. There, the instrument of segregation was the restrictive covenant. These were competed away
privately long before they were declared unenforceable and that indirectly led to more integrated schools.
My educated guess is that school choice would make for less segregated neighborhoods than we have today. Surely not all schools would be integrated, but more than we have now.
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 01, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
So now one has to move to that school!
Anyway, one can't tell how many would choose, because it's too damned expensive to choose. The tyranny of the
status quo.
Hell, we can now choose our genders, but not our schools.
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 01, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
How Ethical Is It To Move to A Neighborhood for Its School Rating? (https://www.parents.com/kids/education/elementary-school/how-ethical-is-it-to-move-to-a-neighborhood-for-its-school-rating/)
Quote
Picking a "good" school is very different than scrolling for five-star reviews when online shopping. And it turns out the decisions we're making are perpetuating segregation in many communities. Here's what you need to know when choosing a school for your child.
Picking a school for your children to attend has become a very big decision for some families. Plenty of parents look to test scores, real estate databases, and casual chats with friends when house-hunting to make sure they buy in a neighborhood with the best public schools. Many childless couples even consider the school rankings listed on real estate apps like Zillow when considering a neighborhood where they will raise their future children.
Given that the author indicates in the first paragraph a concern about the effects of people choosing "better schools", it's unlikely that the subsequent paragraph about how common it is is exaggerated.
So to the earlier point, a lot of people choose their
home to be near the
school they want.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 01, 2022, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 01, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
How Ethical Is It To Move to A Neighborhood for Its School Rating? (https://www.parents.com/kids/education/elementary-school/how-ethical-is-it-to-move-to-a-neighborhood-for-its-school-rating/)
Quote
Picking a "good" school is very different than scrolling for five-star reviews when online shopping. And it turns out the decisions we're making are perpetuating segregation in many communities. Here's what you need to know when choosing a school for your child.
Picking a school for your children to attend has become a very big decision for some families. Plenty of parents look to test scores, real estate databases, and casual chats with friends when house-hunting to make sure they buy in a neighborhood with the best public schools. Many childless couples even consider the school rankings listed on real estate apps like Zillow when considering a neighborhood where they will raise their future children.
Given that the author indicates in the first paragraph a concern about the effects of people choosing "better schools", it's unlikely that the subsequent paragraph about how common it is is exaggerated.
So to the earlier point, a lot of people choose their home to be near the school they want.
[/b]
Yes, and one can see it in real estate prices.
The well off already have school choice -- by picking their neighborhood. The poorly off do not.
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 01, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
I don't
want have to research which car to buy, college to attend, or political candidate to vote for, but only in the land of childish fantasy or tyrannies are people relieved of the task of making these choices. And most people aren't that lazy given how many consider the quality of schools when buying a house or select charter or private schools if they have that option.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 30, 2022, 02:55:10 PM
Admit that you simply lapsed into a stereotypical rant from the rightwing peanut gallery.
From that organ of the rightwing peanut gallery, Wikipedia:
Mainstreaming (education) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_(education)#Tradeoff_with_non-disabled_students'_academic_education)
Quote
Mainstreaming, in the context of education, is the practice of placing students with special education needs in a general education classroom during specific time periods based on their skills. To clarify, this means students who are a part of the special education classroom will join the regular education classroom at certain times which are fitting for the special education student.
Proponents of both the philosophy of educational inclusion assert that educating children with disabilities alongside their non-disabled peers fosters understanding and tolerance, better preparing students of all abilities to function in the world beyond school. Children with special needs may face social stigma as a result of being mainstreamed, but also may help them socially develop.
Note that proponents support it for reasons of social inclusion, rather than for any pedagogical reasons.
Explicitly:
Quote
Dr. Kenneth Shore comments on the least restrictive environment by claiming, "Determining what is the least restrictive environment for a particular student requires balancing the need for the child to learn to integrate socially with his non-disabled peers with the need for the child to receive instruction appropriate to his abilities."
Again, even the proponents realize that the child's
education will be better in a specialized environment, while the mainstreaming is for
social integration.
(And of course, teachers and their unions are always pushing for smaller class sizes,
because of the range of students in their classes and the individual needs they have.) Even if social integration is an important goal, it is in conflict with best practices pedagogically.
Fiddle-de-dee.
I've taught in elementary schools as a sub where students moved in and out of their anchoring class, either more often--for those with needs for more intervention--or less so, for those whose needs involved less assistance.
If run well--and I worked in a system with nine schools, including a separate special-needs preschool/kindergarten, 6 elementary schools, a middle-school, and a high school--it's fine.
Kids without special needs learn to get along with and behave well towards those with needs for intervention, and in some cases were assigned as special helpers for the day to encourage 360-degree socialization (remember, it's not only those needing interventions who need help with socialization). The special-needs kids got the help they needed (and I subbed in most of those classrooms as well, and with only two exceptions--both of whose lead teachers were not rehired and replaced the next year) saw excellent remedial programs). And the stronger students also had program challenges to keep them moving ahead.
Obviously, not all systems could do what this one did. But I've also seen it from the other side: three of the kids I have as private music students are in this system and I see how it's helped them to function. Each has had external help for more serious needs (one needed OT interventions until his neural system caught up to his age/growth level; another is seriously stuck on the autism scale but makes what progress he can; a third has learned to manage most of his needs himself, even after moving to a different school system.
So, n= 3, but it's a solid 3 by observation on those level; over the course of the 2 years i subbed, I probably saw or worked with c. 70 or so kids, and that's not inconsequential, either.
It's also not hypothetical.
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 01, 2022, 10:20:43 AM
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 01, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
"School choice" is a myth. 99% of people want the school that is most convenient to their home, and want it to be as good as possible. They really don't want to schlep kids all over town, research schools, or have dollars spent on marketing that could have been spent on educating their children.
How Ethical Is It To Move to A Neighborhood for Its School Rating? (https://www.parents.com/kids/education/elementary-school/how-ethical-is-it-to-move-to-a-neighborhood-for-its-school-rating/)
Quote
Picking a "good" school is very different than scrolling for five-star reviews when online shopping. And it turns out the decisions we're making are perpetuating segregation in many communities. Here's what you need to know when choosing a school for your child.
Picking a school for your children to attend has become a very big decision for some families. Plenty of parents look to test scores, real estate databases, and casual chats with friends when house-hunting to make sure they buy in a neighborhood with the best public schools. Many childless couples even consider the school rankings listed on real estate apps like Zillow when considering a neighborhood where they will raise their future children.
Given that the author indicates in the first paragraph a concern about the effects of people choosing "better schools", it's unlikely that the subsequent paragraph about how common it is is exaggerated.
So to the earlier point, a lot of people choose their home to be near the school they want.
Well, not that micro. They narrow their choices down to neighborhoods with good schools. Then they choose a home in those neighbhorhoods. At that point, they are focused on the local schools and putting their energy elsewhere.
Quote from: mamselle on May 01, 2022, 12:57:51 PM
Fiddle-de-dee.
I've taught in elementary schools as a sub where students moved in and out of their anchoring class, either more often--for those with needs for more intervention--or less so, for those whose needs involved less assistance.
Just to clarify; the context for bringing up mainstreaming was this:
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
The "culture war crap" is there in the first place because the "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology. (If you can show me research that math attached to random factoids from some area that has nothing to do with math enhances learning, then go ahead.)
(emphasis added)
If what was
best pedagogically, based on solid research, was the basis for decisions about what is taught and how, then much of this debate wouldn't be happening. The debate is almost entirely about what (if any) goals should be pursued
in addition to learning, (such as social inclusion), and
how much those pedagogical best practices can be compromised or set aside in pursuit of those
other goals.
(In principle most people would probably agree that social inclusion is a worthwhile goal; the disagreement is going to come down to what has to be sacrificed in
learning while trying to promote it.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:28:54 AM
(In principle most people would probably agree that social inclusion is a worthwhile goal; the disagreement is going to come down to what has to be sacrificed in learning while trying to promote it.)
It's not an either/or. Kids learn at different paces, and different kids learn different things at different times. The strong reader might have trouble with math, and the strong math student may have trouble with spelling.
Kids learn from each other. They learn to ask for help, and give help. They learn to explain and understand things different ways. They learn to listen to people who, hey, might surprise them.
A hiking buddy of mind was lamenting that, as the senior engineer at is company, he has nobody to go to when he get stuck with a problem. I said he is surrounded by people who may have less education, and/or less experience in his area. Still, nothing like walking through a problem with someone else who might have different education and/or experience.
In one of my recent jobs I used to have to troubleshoot our Salesforce application. When I would get stuck, I would ask my assistant, who was a high school graduate and spent her entire 20 year career sitting at the one desk, to sit with me as we walked through the steps. Inevitably she would say "Oh, did you remember to connect that one thing?" Ding, that was it.
In other news, at our college we have an equity gap in that Black and Latino students complete college-level and advanced math at much lower rates than White and Asian students. We recently hired several Black and Latino math teachers. There was a raging debate over where these faculty should teach. Should they be in the classes with mostly Black and Latino students, so the remedial classes? Or, wasn't it good for these students to see those faculty teaching the advanced classes? And shouldn't the White and Asian students in the advanced classes get used to learing from, and seeing Black and Latino faculty as experts?
I said "just let them teach where they want to teach and let it all work out..."
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 02, 2022, 06:42:08 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 06:28:54 AM
(In principle most people would probably agree that social inclusion is a worthwhile goal; the disagreement is going to come down to what has to be sacrificed in learning while trying to promote it.)
It's not an either/or. Kids learn at different paces, and different kids learn different things at different times. The strong reader might have trouble with math, and the strong math student may have trouble with spelling.
Kids learn from each other. They learn to ask for help, and give help. They learn to explain and understand things different ways. They learn to listen to people who, hey, might surprise them.
Even if the students helping others improve their own learning in the process, it would be a
wild *coincidence (aka magical) if the amount of time they spent helping
always resulted in their learning
more that the same amount of time devoted to their own learning of new topics or deeper study of familiar topics.
*Especially since how much time they spend helping is probably determined by things like
how busy the teacher is, rather than by any
evidence-based study of what is optimal. (And since teachers are always claiming to be overworked, the amount of time students are helping each other doesn't seem in anyway "optimal" by the
teacher's standards.)
So while pursuing these different goals at the same time may seem like a good idea, there's no basis for any claim that the whole setup in some way
optimizes student learning, or even the entire "student experience", however that might be defined.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 07:09:42 AM
Even if the students helping others improve their own learning in the process, it would be a wild *coincidence (aka magical) if the amount of time they spent helping always resulted in their learning more that the same amount of time devoted to their own learning of new topics or deeper study of familiar topics.
*Especially since how much time they spend helping is probably determined by things like how busy the teacher is, rather than by any evidence-based study of what is optimal. (And since teachers are always claiming to be overworked, the amount of time students are helping each other doesn't seem in anyway "optimal" by the teacher's standards.)
So while pursuing these different goals at the same time may seem like a good idea, there's no basis for any claim that the whole setup in some way optimizes student learning, or even the entire "student experience", however that might be defined.
It would also be a
wild *coincidence (aka magical) if it a school streamed all learners in such a way that they were at the exact same level, learning at the exact same pace, in the exact same way.
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 02, 2022, 07:15:45 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 02, 2022, 07:09:42 AM
Even if the students helping others improve their own learning in the process, it would be a wild *coincidence (aka magical) if the amount of time they spent helping always resulted in their learning more that the same amount of time devoted to their own learning of new topics or deeper study of familiar topics.
*Especially since how much time they spend helping is probably determined by things like how busy the teacher is, rather than by any evidence-based study of what is optimal. (And since teachers are always claiming to be overworked, the amount of time students are helping each other doesn't seem in anyway "optimal" by the teacher's standards.)
So while pursuing these different goals at the same time may seem like a good idea, there's no basis for any claim that the whole setup in some way optimizes student learning, or even the entire "student experience", however that might be defined.
It would also be a wild *coincidence (aka magical) if it a school streamed all learners in such a way that they were at the exact same level, learning at the exact same pace, in the exact same way.
That would be completely individualized learning, since each student is unique.
The amount of time students spend helping other students in a diverse classroom is determined by
resources; ie. how much time the teacher has per student. But the decision to put all of those students in one class is determined by
ideology; given a certain number of students and a certain number of teachers, the same amount of resources are used
regardless of how the students are divided up.
(I previously haven't brought this up, but when students with severe discipline issues are put in regular classrooms that seriously impacts the learning of everyone else. When an entire classroom has to be evacuated because of one student's meltdown, there's no way to argue that somehow the other students are "better off".)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 01, 2022, 12:31:13 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on April 30, 2022, 02:55:10 PM
Admit that you simply lapsed into a stereotypical rant from the rightwing peanut gallery.
From that organ of the rightwing peanut gallery, Wikipedia:
Mainstreaming (education) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_(education)#Tradeoff_with_non-disabled_students'_academic_education)
Quote
Mainstreaming, in the context of education, is the practice of placing students with special education needs in a general education classroom during specific time periods based on their skills. To clarify, this means students who are a part of the special education classroom will join the regular education classroom at certain times which are fitting for the special education student.
Proponents of both the philosophy of educational inclusion assert that educating children with disabilities alongside their non-disabled peers fosters understanding and tolerance, better preparing students of all abilities to function in the world beyond school. Children with special needs may face social stigma as a result of being mainstreamed, but also may help them socially develop.
Note that proponents support it for reasons of social inclusion, rather than for any pedagogical reasons.
Explicitly:
Quote
Dr. Kenneth Shore comments on the least restrictive environment by claiming, "Determining what is the least restrictive environment for a particular student requires balancing the need for the child to learn to integrate socially with his non-disabled peers with the need for the child to receive instruction appropriate to his abilities."
Again, even the proponents realize that the child's education will be better in a specialized environment, while the mainstreaming is for social integration.
(And of course, teachers and their unions are always pushing for smaller class sizes, because of the range of students in their classes and the individual needs they have.) Even if social integration is an important goal, it is in conflict with best practices pedagogically.
Has no relevance at all to the little tirade you posted earlier and you know it. You let your mask slip for a moment, Marshy, and now you are trying to strawman it back on.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 02, 2022, 08:24:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 01, 2022, 12:31:13 PM
Again, even the proponents realize that the child's education will be better in a specialized environment, while the mainstreaming is for social integration.
(And of course, teachers and their unions are always pushing for smaller class sizes, because of the range of students in their classes and the individual needs they have.) Even if social integration is an important goal, it is in conflict with best practices pedagogically.
Has no relevance at all to the little tirade you posted earlier and you know it. You let your mask slip for a moment, Marshy, and now you are trying to strawman it back on.
I must bow to your psychic abilities. You can read my mind through the ether while I admit to often having no idea what you're implying with your cryptic responses. I am clearly out of my depth.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 05:39:13 AM
I am clearly out of my depth.
No.
But sometimes you post Sean-Hannity-esque propaganda which you cannot back up with any sort of objective evidence. That kind of posting flies at One America New or Newsmax but not at a place like The Fora.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 08:08:37 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 05:39:13 AM
I am clearly out of my depth.
No.
But sometimes you post Sean-Hannity-esque propaganda which you cannot back up with any sort of objective evidence. That kind of posting flies at One America New or Newsmax but not at a place like The Fora.
So if you're referring to this:
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
The "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology. (If you can show me research that math attached to random factoids from some area that has nothing to do with math enhances learning, then go ahead.)
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education. ("Whole language" is an obvious example; phonics fell out of favour even though there was lots of evidence of its value. Same for learning algorithms for solving math problems.) Basically anything prescriptive is removed in favour of vague open-ended approaches to obscure the gap between students who are figuring it out and students who are struggling. In principle identifying struggling students is vitally important in order to give them more help, and having established processes for them to follow will help them succeed. But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Then I would point to this:
World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading)
From the report, South Korea is #1; US is #14.
With all of the resources and expertise that the US has, why isn't the US at the top, or at least in the top 5?
The most obvious answer is that academic performance has not been prioritized as highly in the US as other things, such as social inclusion.
The choice of which factors to prioritize is an ideological one.
Marshy, Marshy, Marshy...
Try this:
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 08:38:37 AM
So if you're referring to this:
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 29, 2022, 09:21:43 AM
The "educators" threw in all kinds of stuff with no pedagogical value for the sake of ideology.
Education wonks are some of the worst for trying to impose social engineering goals on society at the expense of actual education.
But much of the emphasis has shifted to trying to raise their self-esteem without raising their competence.
Straining to back up your OAN-esque claims you try yet another uncited strawman:
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 08:38:37 AM
Then I would point to this:
World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading)
From the report, South Korea is #1; US is #14.
With all of the resources and expertise that the US has, why isn't the US at the top, or at least in the top 5?
The most obvious answer is that academic performance has not been prioritized as highly in the US as other things, such as social inclusion. The choice of which factors to prioritize is an ideological one.
Is that the "most obvious answer?" Really!? Can you prove that? Or is it simply that our educational system is underfunded and mediocre in some regards? And please note that we are well ahead of many other industrialized nations and that our scores actually exceed or almost-match the average.
Spin, Marshy, spin.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 03, 2022, 11:21:15 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 08:38:37 AM
Then I would point to this:
World education rankings: which country does best at reading, maths and science? (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading)
From the report, South Korea is #1; US is #14.
With all of the resources and expertise that the US has, why isn't the US at the top, or at least in the top 5?
The most obvious answer is that academic performance has not been prioritized as highly in the US as other things, such as social inclusion. The choice of which factors to prioritize is an ideological one.
Is that the "most obvious answer?" Really!? Can you prove that? Or is it simply that our educational system is underfunded and mediocre in some regards?
But that's just the point; why would the US system be "underfunded and mediocre"? With all of the expertise and resources available, in a country that *prides itself on being "the best" at all kinds of things, does it make sense that this kind of performance is OK?
(*And just a reminder: conservatives are probably
more likely than liberals to argue that the US is best, so getting them to spend money to achieve or maintain that status should be like shooting fish in a barrel.)
Quote
And please note that we are well ahead of many other industrialized nations and that our scores actually exceed or almost-match the average.
Talk about damning with faint praise.
Being "almost average" isn't something most people would crow about.
There is a wealth of research on why the US i where it is in the rankings. Look at the many TIMMs reports.
One obvious answer is teacher prep and expectations in the classroom. The best explanation in my opinion.
Interthreaduality- One large study of videos of representative classrooms showed a striking difference in the teacher expectations contrasting the US, Germany and Japan. The Japanese classrooms had much fewer questions asked and discussed, but at a much higher level. All students were expected to create theiR own solutions. Germany had a much lower level, the US even lower. When a student asks how in the US the teacher immediately showed them how; not in Japan.
The Asian countries as well as Hungary and the Eastern bloc nations all focused on higher levels of concepts along with that expectation. Please also note the Asian countries required more days of school, and after school tutoring on skills and rote material is a cultural expectation.
The US math educators have been arguing for student "productive struggle" to be the classroom norm for 40 years to little avail.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 12:46:58 PM
Quote
And please note that we are well ahead of many other industrialized nations and that our scores actually exceed or almost-match the average.
Talk about damning with faint praise.
Being "almost average" isn't something most people would crow about.
Point being, nothing you've posted backs up your Conservapedia-style rantings from earlier----which you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.
Americans talk big, that does not mean Americans want to pay to be the best (see jimbogumbo's post).
You know, if you are really worried about dogmatic, ideological teaching aimed at kids, you should disavow C.S. Lewis.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 01:55:57 PM
There is a wealth of research on why the US i where it is in the rankings. Look at the many TIMMs reports.
One obvious answer is teacher prep and expectations in the classroom. The best explanation in my opinion.
Interthreaduality- One large study of videos of representative classrooms showed a striking difference in the teacher expectations contrasting the US, Germany and Japan. The Japanese classrooms had much fewer questions asked and discussed, but at a much higher level. All students were expected to create theiR own solutions. Germany had a much lower level, the US even lower. When a student asks how in the US the teacher immediately showed them how; not in Japan.
The Asian countries as well as Hungary and the Eastern bloc nations all focused on higher levels of concepts along with that expectation. Please also note the Asian countries required more days of school, and after school tutoring on skills and rote material is a cultural expectation.
The US math educators have been arguing for student "productive struggle" to be the classroom norm for 40 years to little avail.
Why is that? If it's a partisan thing, then there should be a clear distinction between areas that support the math educators and those that don't based on political affiliation. If there isn't, then it's something deeper.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 01:55:57 PM
There is a wealth of research on why the US i where it is in the rankings. Look at the many TIMMs reports.
One obvious answer is teacher prep and expectations in the classroom. The best explanation in my opinion.
Interthreaduality- One large study of videos of representative classrooms showed a striking difference in the teacher expectations contrasting the US, Germany and Japan. The Japanese classrooms had much fewer questions asked and discussed, but at a much higher level. All students were expected to create theiR own solutions. Germany had a much lower level, the US even lower. When a student asks how in the US the teacher immediately showed them how; not in Japan.
The Asian countries as well as Hungary and the Eastern bloc nations all focused on higher levels of concepts along with that expectation. Please also note the Asian countries required more days of school, and after school tutoring on skills and rote material is a cultural expectation.
The US math educators have been arguing for student "productive struggle" to be the classroom norm for 40 years to little avail.
Students in other countries perform better than those in the U.S. because other countries have far stronger cultural expectations that students will work hard (In the case of East Asian students, very, very hard indeed). In the U.S. most parents demand very little of their children academically, and most schools expect little of them. The differences are in large part due to enormously higher levels of breakdown of family structures in the U.S. than in most of these other countries--family dysfunction is so rampant in the U.S. that children simply don't have the support at home that they need to succeed in school.
When it comes to math, American students are further handicapped by a cultural belief that math aptitude is in some way inborn. A few students have minds that are attracted to math, and feel motivated to do well at it. Most hate it, refuse to work hard at it, and they and their parents excuse their subsequent failure to do well on their inability to do it. Or they blame teachers for failing to make it interesting enough, or failing to somehow stick the knowledge into students' heads. Elsewhere the understanding is that anybody who is not intellectually disabled can do math up to the highest levels, if only he or she will work at it. If you're not doing well, then you're just not trying hard enough. No excuses about it being hard or boring accepted, and parents are inclined to place the onus for any failures on the students, not on the teachers.
As in so many other things, young people in American society are failing because we expect too little of them and give them too little support to do better. They could do as well as any students in the world if we just gave them stable homes and expectations that they work at things until they get them right. And didn't hit those students who are most likely to be in dysfunctional family situations with the additional handicap of being grouped together in underfunded schools. Overall the U.S. spends
more money per capita on average than other countries, not less, but the distribution of funds varies wildly across districts.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 01:55:57 PM
There is a wealth of research on why the US i where it is in the rankings. Look at the many TIMMs reports.
One obvious answer is teacher prep and expectations in the classroom. The best explanation in my opinion.
Interthreaduality- One large study of videos of representative classrooms showed a striking difference in the teacher expectations contrasting the US, Germany and Japan. The Japanese classrooms had much fewer questions asked and discussed, but at a much higher level. All students were expected to create theiR own solutions. Germany had a much lower level, the US even lower. When a student asks how in the US the teacher immediately showed them how; not in Japan.
The Asian countries as well as Hungary and the Eastern bloc nations all focused on higher levels of concepts along with that expectation. Please also note the Asian countries required more days of school, and after school tutoring on skills and rote material is a cultural expectation.
The US math educators have been arguing for student "productive struggle" to be the classroom norm for 40 years to little avail.
Why is that? If it's a partisan thing, then there should be a clear distinction between areas that support the math educators and those that don't based on political affiliation. If there isn't, then it's something deeper.
It has nothing to do with politics. apl68 is right on the mark below.
There are places that do really well on the exams. A group of suburbs west of Chicago had their students combined and rated as though they were a country. They were tops on the exam (called themselves First in the World Coalition). Of course it helped that they were affluent suburbs.
For an example at the high school level recall
Stand and Deliver.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 03, 2022, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 03, 2022, 01:55:57 PM
There is a wealth of research on why the US i where it is in the rankings. Look at the many TIMMs reports.
One obvious answer is teacher prep and expectations in the classroom. The best explanation in my opinion.
Interthreaduality- One large study of videos of representative classrooms showed a striking difference in the teacher expectations contrasting the US, Germany and Japan. The Japanese classrooms had much fewer questions asked and discussed, but at a much higher level. All students were expected to create theiR own solutions. Germany had a much lower level, the US even lower. When a student asks how in the US the teacher immediately showed them how; not in Japan.
The Asian countries as well as Hungary and the Eastern bloc nations all focused on higher levels of concepts along with that expectation. Please also note the Asian countries required more days of school, and after school tutoring on skills and rote material is a cultural expectation.
The US math educators have been arguing for student "productive struggle" to be the classroom norm for 40 years to little avail.
Why is that? If it's a partisan thing, then there should be a clear distinction between areas that support the math educators and those that don't based on political affiliation. If there isn't, then it's something deeper.
It has nothing to do with politics. apl68 is right on the mark below.
I agree. And this is what I mean by education policies being driven by ideology, not pedagogy. (Note: Ideology, "a system of ideas and ideals", does not have to be partisan.) Those societal low expectations apl68 pointed out are baked in culturally, and no-one wants to take them on, at least if they want to stay employed.
What makes students learn is no secret;
why students need to do the hard work to learn is the topic that can't be meaningfully discussed.
Nice try, Marshy. Keep trying to come up with a rationale.
This might be a wildly off-topic comment and I didn't read all the comments.
I do worry about what is going on in Florida and whether children will not be taught historical facts if they relate to anything due to oppression, race, etc. For example, until very recently, it was common practice in some well-off schools to allow parents to tell their children that the holocaust wasn't real. Parents could opt-out of having their kids attend lessons/events about the holocaust. My worry is that now schools will go back in time where they don't teach about slavery or the holocaust or other events or schools give parents the choice to decline lessons for their children that are related to slavery/ the holocaust.
Here is a most recent example of a principal being fired for not being able to confirm that the holocaust was a fact: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/education/fl-ne-william-latson-holocaust-final-vote-20201102-fdfcgjrbz5gg5kc5evnvv3tolu-story.html
Quote from: newprofwife on May 04, 2022, 09:24:26 AM
This might be a wildly off-topic comment and I didn't read all the comments.
I do worry about what is going on in Florida and whether children will not be taught historical facts if they relate to anything due to oppression, race, etc. For example, until very recently, it was common practice in some well-off schools to allow parents to tell their children that the holocaust wasn't real. Parents could opt-out of having their kids attend lessons/events about the holocaust. My worry is that now schools will go back in time where they don't teach about slavery or the holocaust or other events or schools give parents the choice to decline lessons for their children that are related to slavery/ the holocaust.
Here is a most recent example of a principal being fired for not being able to confirm that the holocaust was a fact: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/education/fl-ne-william-latson-holocaust-final-vote-20201102-fdfcgjrbz5gg5kc5evnvv3tolu-story.html
This is weird:
Quote
Latson had allowed students to opt out of Holocaust education despite the curriculum being required by the state.
If students can "opt out" of curriculum being required by the state, what does it even mean for something to be "required"?
Breaking into the bromance argue-triangle with a factoid:
The 'rationale' for the choice of books banned has been publicized:
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/05/fldoe-releases-math-textbook-reviews-00030503
M.
"Social emotional learning" was the biggie. I'm copying and pasting from a Washington Post article that came out today. A common issue brought up was the idea that a mathematical growth mindset (in a nutshell, if I keep at it I can get better) was somehow evil. Stunning.
The bolded parts are from the quote, but are my emphasis btw.
Concerning a different first-grade math book, a reviewer remarked: "Some lessons include growth mindset concepts, which are a component of SEL learning." The state rejected that book for containing "special topics."
One reviewer noted that another book featured a question "that asks students to think about social and emotional learning competencies, including relationship skills and social awareness." That text was rejected.
But the majority of reviewers gave books perfect or near-perfect marks for complying with the state's rules about the inclusion of critical race theory or social justice teachings. And one reviewer questioned the point of the entire exercise.
"This question is irrelevant to a math textbook," the reviewer wrote.
Publishers must navigate not just the culture wars, but also instructions from the state that are rife with confusing terminology. In a letter to publishers issued in June 2021, Florida's Education Department warned "publishers and school districts to not incorporate unsolicited strategies, such as social emotional learning and culturally responsive teaching." But the state's original instructions seemed to contradict that, requiring publishers to include "multicultural representation" and to integrate it into the lessons in a way that would "promote a positive self-image for members of all groups, and provide for the development of healthy attitudes and values."
Common Core, one of the forbidden subjects, once had bipartisan backing. The framework was created by a group of governors from both parties to standardize basic math and literacy learning objectives across the country. Ultimately, 41 states adopted it, in part because of incentives from the Obama administration to do so. But even though adoption was never mandatory, Republicans began holding up Common Core as a symbol of federal overreach. Donald Trump attacked it during his 2016 campaign, calling it "a total disaster." DeSantis, following his party, decided to do away with the program in 2020.
"The authors of kindergarten and fourth-grade math books by Big Ideas, which were on the state's initial "not recommended" list, said they used "Mathematical Mindsets: Unleashing Students' Potential through Creative Math, Inspiring Messages and Innovative Teaching" to guide how they wrote the math textbook. It offers educators techniques on how to calm students' anxiety about math so they can better absorb the lessons, a clear nod to social-emotional learning. And the book is sprinkled with encouragements to "persevere," "stay positive" and "participate in effortful learning" — words that could be interpreted as social-emotional learning.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 09:14:23 AM
"The authors of kindergarten and fourth-grade math books by Big Ideas, which were on the state's initial "not recommended" list, said they used "Mathematical Mindsets: Unleashing Students' Potential through Creative Math, Inspiring Messages and Innovative Teaching" to guide how they wrote the math textbook. It offers educators techniques on how to calm students' anxiety about math so they can better absorb the lessons, a clear nod to social-emotional learning. And the book is sprinkled with encouragements to "persevere," "stay positive" and "participate in effortful learning" — words that could be interpreted as social-emotional learning.
I think I'd avoid this book simply on the basis of excessive marketing hype.
- "Creative Math"; I'm not sure how "creative" one can be when the result of a particular calculation has a single specific value.
- "Inspiring Messages"; I'm not sure how much cheerleading from a textbook is going to affect student outcomes.
- "Innovative Teaching"; Innovation that has been proven to be effective is great; "innovation" that just sounds more fun isn't.
The tedious underlying message is that somehow the inherent difficulty in learning can be avoided by the correct approach. (Indeed, growth mindset is all about encouraging people to keep working because hard work pays off. This kind of marketing
undermines the growth mindset message.)
What you cited isn't the text though. The last sentence of your quote is more to my point that rejecting was a ridiculous decision.
And, I'm sorry, but there are many ways to be creative in math. Just because there are some questions that are simple and straightforward doesn't mean that much of the subject is not.
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 10:42:02 AM
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Obviously the person who bought the ice cream should sell to make the highest profit. What is this insanity of "fairness"?
In Catholic School, Jesus gets the ice cream.
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 10:42:02 AM
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Clearly the teacher should have had a better understanding, but, you are incorrect about the word fair in mathematics. And yes it has several meanings. See below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_division
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 11:26:52 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 10:42:02 AM
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Clearly the teacher should have had a better understanding, but, you are incorrect about the word fair in mathematics. And yes it has several meanings. See below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_division
"Equally" would have been unambiguous mathematically, and would have avoided any philosophical and/or ideological issues, that, if they were to be discussed, should be in another course. (Unless "math" has the entire instructional day so that every subject is addressed under "math", which would be confusing and stupid, but would at least prevent the time being taken from one subject to be used for another.)
You and I both agree that problems are written poorly I suspect. I was just letting dismalist know (as a public service, heh) that he was a tad incorrect.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 12:53:26 PM
You and I both agree that problems are written poorly I suspect. I was just letting dismalist know (as a public service, heh) that he was a tad incorrect.
They wasn't teaching game theory.
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 01:03:46 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 12:53:26 PM
You and I both agree that problems are written poorly I suspect. I was just letting dismalist know (as a public service, heh) that he was a tad incorrect.
They wasn't teaching game theory.
Well aware; it goes far beyond game theory. I was hoping you'd look at the definitions of fair. In elementary school fair division implies equally. Think also in probability where fair means equally likely.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 01:47:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 01:03:46 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 12:53:26 PM
You and I both agree that problems are written poorly I suspect. I was just letting dismalist know (as a public service, heh) that he was a tad incorrect.
They wasn't teaching game theory.
Well aware; it goes far beyond game theory. I was hoping you'd look at the definitions of fair. In elementary school fair division implies equally. Think also in probability where fair means equally likely.
[/quote
But they weren't studying probability theory, either.
If one says: In elementary school fair division implies equally, one is claiming truth by definition.
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2022, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 10:42:02 AM
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Obviously the person who bought the ice cream should sell to make the highest profit. What is this insanity of "fairness"?
In Catholic School, Jesus gets the ice cream.
At mine we each got a paper bag with a treat inside. Some got 2 cookies while others got 1. Some had 1 cookie and 1 cracker. The goal was to see if we would look around and share with others. I had no problem eating my 2 cookies. This was some new faddish social justice experiment.
Anyhow, regarding the ice cream, I would expect to see
evenly instead of
fairly.I must admit that I am too lazy to read this whole thread but did anyone come up with an actual example of CRT being used in a math class?
QuoteAt mine we each got a paper bag with a treat inside. Some got 2 cookies while others got 1. Some had 1 cookie and 1 cracker. The goal was to see if we would look around and share with others. I had no problem eating my 2 cookies. This was some new faddish social justice experiment.
Share? Social justice? Nay, voluntary exchange! Make at least one person better off and no one worse off.
Wish I had taught that class. But I wouldn't have called it math. :-)
Does anyone wonder why deSantis went after math texts? Why not social studies, language arts?? A warning shot to other publishers?
Quote from: nebo113 on May 10, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Does anyone wonder why deSantis went after math texts? Why not social studies, language arts?? A warning shot to other publishers?
That is a good question. Hmm.
Quote from: nebo113 on May 10, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Does anyone wonder why deSantis went after math texts? Why not social studies, language arts?? A warning shot to other publishers?
I will venture a guess and say that with math he can easily say that social issues and controversies should be kept out of the textbooks but you really can't do that with social studies.
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 01:53:22 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 01:47:05 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 01:03:46 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 12:53:26 PM
You and I both agree that problems are written poorly I suspect. I was just letting dismalist know (as a public service, heh) that he was a tad incorrect.
They wasn't teaching game theory.
Well aware; it goes far beyond game theory. I was hoping you'd look at the definitions of fair. In elementary school fair division implies equally. Think also in probability where fair means equally likely.
[/quote
But they weren't studying probability theory, either.
If one says: In elementary school fair division implies equally, one is claiming truth by definition.
dismalist said: If one says: In elementary school fair division implies equally, one is claiming truth by definition.
jimbogumbo says: don't make me say duh. That's what I meant when I said the teacher should be better informed.
Quote from: Anselm on May 10, 2022, 02:28:31 PM
Quote from: downer on May 10, 2022, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 10:42:02 AM
It's already been about 20 years when my daughter was in an early grade and had a math homework problem, from the textbook, that said: There are six children and six ice cream cones. How do you divide the ice cream cones fairly?
I went through the roof, going so far as to complain to the teacher that fairness could mean many things and that it didn't belong in a math problem. She had no clue what I was complaining about.
That's when the idea of Catholic school first came into my head.
Obviously the person who bought the ice cream should sell to make the highest profit. What is this insanity of "fairness"?
In Catholic School, Jesus gets the ice cream.
At mine we each got a paper bag with a treat inside. Some got 2 cookies while others got 1. Some had 1 cookie and 1 cracker. The goal was to see if we would look around and share with others. I had no problem eating my 2 cookies. This was some new faddish social justice experiment.
Anyhow, regarding the ice cream, I would expect to see evenly instead of fairly.
I must admit that I am too lazy to read this whole thread but did anyone come up with an actual example of CRT being used in a math class?
Not that I saw. Just statistics used in problems. Statistics that made people "uncomfortable".
QuoteNot that I saw. Just statistics used in problems. Statistics that made people "uncomfortable".
Why would anyone want to do that? Clearly, it's not about statistics or math. As far as learning is concerned, I'd call it pollution.
Some people's pollution is other people's natural smelling salts. School choice solves the problem.
Voucherize, voucherize.
Quote from: nebo113 on May 10, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Does anyone wonder why deSantis went after math texts? Why not social studies, language arts?? A warning shot to other publishers?
My guess is math gets people a little het up in general, what with mathophobia, New Math, etc.
And it's "supposed" to be morally neutral and fact-based. So it wouldn't take long to find a word problem that someone could read CRT or Satanic Worship or Homosexual Grooming or whatever they feared.
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 10, 2022, 05:11:32 PM
Quote from: nebo113 on May 10, 2022, 03:33:54 PM
Does anyone wonder why deSantis went after math texts? Why not social studies, language arts?? A warning shot to other publishers?
My guess is math gets people a little het up in general, what with mathophobia, New Math, etc.
And it's "supposed" to be morally neutral and fact-based. So it wouldn't take long to find a word problem that someone could read CRT or Satanic Worship or Homosexual Grooming or whatever they feared.
One can't possibly mean that math is
not morally neutral.
Fact based? Well, if it doesn't have something to do with the real world for long times, it gets decadent [according to Johnny von Neumann]
Quote from: Anselm on May 10, 2022, 02:28:31 PM
At mine we each got a paper bag with a treat inside. Some got 2 cookies while others got 1. Some had 1 cookie and 1 cracker. The goal was to see if we would look around and share with others. I had no problem eating my 2 cookies. This was some new faddish social justice experiment.
Anyhow, regarding the ice cream, I would expect to see evenly instead of fairly.
I must admit that I am too lazy to read this whole thread but did anyone come up with an actual example of CRT being used in a math class?
When I was in high school I went to an event where some of us got stickers on our name tags and others did not. None of us really noticed. The teachers told us about the experiment and we were like "Oh, yeah. Nope, no biggie."
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
QuoteNot that I saw. Just statistics used in problems. Statistics that made people "uncomfortable".
Why would anyone want to do that? Clearly, it's not about statistics or math.
That is absurd. The whole point of statistics is to look at precisely this kind of data and make reasoned conclusions.
It is completely the statistics and math.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 10, 2022, 07:49:39 PM
Quote from: dismalist on May 10, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
QuoteNot that I saw. Just statistics used in problems. Statistics that made people "uncomfortable".
Why would anyone want to do that? Clearly, it's not about statistics or math.
That is absurd. The whole point of statistics is to look at precisely this kind of data and make reasoned conclusions.
It is completely the statistics and math.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
To answer a few questions about how it works in Florida. It was math textbooks this year because textbooks are evaluated on a rotating basis by topic. This year was the math review year. Next year is history/social studies. So you can look forward to much more fireworks then, when DeSantis is fully invested in his Presidential run.
Someone upthread was concern about holocaust denialism. Not in Florida schools! Holocaust education was mandated back in 1994. You thank all the Jewish grandparents for that one: https://www.holocaustresources.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/FL-HolocaustMandate.pdf (https://www.holocaustresources.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/FL-HolocaustMandate.pdf)
And just this week we now have "Victims of Communism Day", and mandated state education on the perils of communism. https://www.flgov.com/2022/05/09/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-to-honor-victims-of-communism-and-preserve-history-of-the-freedom-tower/ (https://www.flgov.com/2022/05/09/governor-ron-desantis-signs-legislation-to-honor-victims-of-communism-and-preserve-history-of-the-freedom-tower/)
I had an epiphany this morning: The CRT furor is about Truth & Reconciliation. Truth is only possible if there is the possibility of reconciliation. Reconciliation is only possible with a full accounting of and acceptance of the truth. Ideally, T&R is mediated by a third-party.
There is the perception that some people want truth--a full accounting of and teaching of the racist oppression of the past--but offer no possibility of reconciliation. The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied.
In response, some people want reconciliation--"what's done is done, so let's move on"--without the offer of any truth. There's no need to teach the history. Just accept the world as it is.
The reality is that we must have both. We must have a full accounting of the systemic racism of America's past, and the way those systems extend to the present. But we also must have the promise of a possibility of reconciliation. There must be some possibility that the systemic racism can be rectified in a way that enables us all to live together.
I don't know if that is possible, but I do think that this is a helpful framing of the controversy. (I say all this as a cishet white man who is fully aware of his privilege, but don't know what to do about it.)
Quote from: pgher on May 11, 2022, 06:35:31 AM
I had an epiphany this morning: The CRT furor is about Truth & Reconciliation. Truth is only possible if there is the possibility of reconciliation. Reconciliation is only possible with a full accounting of and acceptance of the truth. Ideally, T&R is mediated by a third-party.
There is the perception that some people want truth--a full accounting of and teaching of the racist oppression of the past--but offer no possibility of reconciliation. The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied.
In response, some people want reconciliation--"what's done is done, so let's move on"--without the offer of any truth. There's no need to teach the history. Just accept the world as it is.
The reality is that we must have both. We must have a full accounting of the systemic racism of America's past, and the way those systems extend to the present. But we also must have the promise of a possibility of reconciliation. There must be some possibility that the systemic racism can be rectified in a way that enables us all to live together.
I don't know if that is possible, but I do think that this is a helpful framing of the controversy. (I say all this as a cishet white man who is fully aware of his privilege, but don't know what to do about it.)
This is a good synopsis. One of the obstacles to a solution is precisely the definition of
systemic racism (or of any "systemic" discrimination). Specifically, the difference of opinion is based on the question of whether different outcomes between different groups is implicit evidence of systemic discrimination, or alternatively whether cultural differences between groups can be significant and different outcomes based on these factors do not implicitly represent discrimination.
Quote from: pgher on May 11, 2022, 06:35:31 AM
I had an epiphany this morning: The CRT furor is about Truth & Reconciliation. Truth is only possible if there is the possibility of reconciliation. Reconciliation is only possible with a full accounting of and acceptance of the truth. Ideally, T&R is mediated by a third-party.
There is the perception that some people want truth--a full accounting of and teaching of the racist oppression of the past--but offer no possibility of reconciliation. The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied.
In response, some people want reconciliation--"what's done is done, so let's move on"--without the offer of any truth. There's no need to teach the history. Just accept the world as it is.
The reality is that we must have both. We must have a full accounting of the systemic racism of America's past, and the way those systems extend to the present. But we also must have the promise of a possibility of reconciliation. There must be some possibility that the systemic racism can be rectified in a way that enables us all to live together.
I don't know if that is possible, but I do think that this is a helpful framing of the controversy. (I say all this as a cishet white man who is fully aware of his privilege, but don't know what to do about it.)
I encourage you to explore this and write it up as an editorial. This is excellently said.
Quote from: pgher on May 11, 2022, 06:35:31 AM
I had an epiphany this morning: The CRT furor is about Truth & Reconciliation. Truth is only possible if there is the possibility of reconciliation. Reconciliation is only possible with a full accounting of and acceptance of the truth. Ideally, T&R is mediated by a third-party.
There is the perception that some people want truth--a full accounting of and teaching of the racist oppression of the past--but offer no possibility of reconciliation. The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied.
In response, some people want reconciliation--"what's done is done, so let's move on"--without the offer of any truth. There's no need to teach the history. Just accept the world as it is.
The reality is that we must have both. We must have a full accounting of the systemic racism of America's past, and the way those systems extend to the present. But we also must have the promise of a possibility of reconciliation. There must be some possibility that the systemic racism can be rectified in a way that enables us all to live together.
I don't know if that is possible, but I do think that this is a helpful framing of the controversy. (I say all this as a cishet white man who is fully aware of his privilege, but don't know what to do about it.)
That's helpful.
From time to time I teach Catharine Sedgwick's novel
Hope Leslie. Published in 1828, it was written in response to
Last of the Mohicans and as an argument against possible Indian Removal (which did happen in 1830). Sedgwick does admit that's trying to give a fuller picture of "the character of the times" than a historical narrative usually does, and in the process tries to rewrite the "Truth" of what happened to the Pequots. There's a moment near the end of the novel in which the Pequot maiden Magawisca is on trial (for conspiracy against the British colony). When it looks like she will be acquitted, she admits that the Natives and the English will never coexist -- the possibility of reconciliation, to use pgher's phrase, is nearly nil, because the British have yet to acknowledge what they did to the Pequots at Mystic. She evokes the language of Patrick Henry in this plea, and students normally recognize this as Sedgwick's argument against Indian Removal. "If we do this again," she seems to be saying, "there's no coming back from this."
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
It's been months and I'm still riled up about this. I still don't know what to do about this line of thinking, and I'm worried it'll only get more common.
Back at the start of the thread, I asked how CRT issues play with Hispanic voters in Florida. They are 16+% of the voters. They tend to be democrat, but that doesn't mean they are fully on board with CRT and they not feel they have much of a role in any reconciliation between races. Presumably politicians like DeSantis want those voters. He won 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2018.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/522060-ron-desantis-makes-5m-spanish-language-media-buy/
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
Your student clearly takes the idea too far, but he has a point that we need to take heed of. Yes, the things our Caucasian forbearers did were atrocities, and yes, we need to learn from them.
But no one living decimated the Pequots.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
Your student clearly takes the idea too far, but he has a point that we need to take heed of. Yes, the things our Caucasian forbears did were atrocities, and yes, we need to learn from them.
But no one living decimated the Pequots.
The question of whether "genetic guilt" and "genetic *entitlement" are valid concepts is a big source of conflict.
(*Note: one doesn't have to accept the idea of "genetic" entitlement to accept that certain things should be
a right of anyone in a community. So programs and infrastructure which are intended to help victims of historical injustices and their descendants don't
have to be predicated on the assumption of any sort of "genetic" guilt or reparations.)
Quote from: pgher on May 11, 2022, 06:35:31 AM
I had an epiphany this morning: The CRT furor is about Truth & Reconciliation. Truth is only possible if there is the possibility of reconciliation. Reconciliation is only possible with a full accounting of and acceptance of the truth. Ideally, T&R is mediated by a third-party.
There is the perception that some people want truth--a full accounting of and teaching of the racist oppression of the past--but offer no possibility of reconciliation. The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied.
In response, some people want reconciliation--"what's done is done, so let's move on"--without the offer of any truth. There's no need to teach the history. Just accept the world as it is.
The reality is that we must have both. We must have a full accounting of the systemic racism of America's past, and the way those systems extend to the present. But we also must have the promise of a possibility of reconciliation. There must be some possibility that the systemic racism can be rectified in a way that enables us all to live together.
I don't know if that is possible, but I do think that this is a helpful framing of the controversy. (I say all this as a cishet white man who is fully aware of his privilege, but don't know what to do about it.)
The CRT narrative is one rather tendentious interpretation of American history and government, not the Truth, but its advocates like to accuse those who reject their narrative (social (de)construction of knowledge for me but not for thee!) as simply wanting to ignore that aspect of American history, which makes reconciliation that much more difficult.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
Your student clearly takes the idea too far, but he has a point that we need to take heed of. Yes, the things our Caucasian forbearers did were atrocities, and yes, we need to learn from them.
But no one living decimated the Pequots.
I'm not sure I understand your point
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 05:14:02 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
Your student clearly takes the idea too far, but he has a point that we need to take heed of. Yes, the things our Caucasian forbearers did were atrocities, and yes, we need to learn from them.
But no one living decimated the Pequots.
I'm not sure I understand your point
There is a culture of blaming the great-great-great-etc.-grandchildren for the "sins of the father" in contemporary race discussions. I understand why people are angry, but they seem to want pay-back now, long after we can punish those who committed the crime.
pgher said it best when hu said, "The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied."
The Ramadan-Olm Twitter / Reddit controversy is a good example of misplaced anger directed at allies as well as adversaries in the culture wars.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 05:43:45 PM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 05:14:02 PM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 11, 2022, 09:51:49 AM
Quote from: RatGuy on May 11, 2022, 09:15:08 AM
This year I had a student vociferously argue against this track. His argument is that the Pequots, though decimated and outlawed, should have simply offer forgiveness. This student gave an offhand admission that the Massacre at Mystic was a bad thing (he'd later make the same arguments about slavery), but that it didn't matter anymore because it was in the past. "You can't build a time machine," he said, to which another student replied, "but we can learn not to make the same mistakes." He insisted that the moral thing for Magawisca to do would be to say "I forgive you for committing genocide against my people," and that fact that she didn't means that what happens next to her (and the other Natives) is her own fault.
Your student clearly takes the idea too far, but he has a point that we need to take heed of. Yes, the things our Caucasian forbearers did were atrocities, and yes, we need to learn from them.
But no one living decimated the Pequots.
I'm not sure I understand your point
There is a culture of blaming the great-great-great-etc.-grandchildren for the "sins of the father" in contemporary race discussions. I understand why people are angry, but they seem to want pay-back now, long after we can punish those who committed the crime.
pgher said it best when hu said, "The perception is that those who have been hurt have a bottomless well of demands that will never be satisfied."
The Ramadan-Olm Twitter / Reddit controversy is a good example of misplaced anger directed at allies as well as adversaries in the culture wars.
I just finished reading a good book,
Cancel This Book: The Progressive Case Against Cancel Culture, which is written by Dan Kovalik, who is a labour lawyer, marched in BLM protests, etc. so he's an honest progressive but he makes a great case for why that "misplaced anger" undermines any chance at real reconciliation.
Quote from: downer on May 11, 2022, 09:35:30 AM
Back at the start of the thread, I asked how CRT issues play with Hispanic voters in Florida. They are 16+% of the voters. They tend to be democrat, but that doesn't mean they are fully on board with CRT and they not feel they have much of a role in any reconciliation between races. Presumably politicians like DeSantis want those voters. He won 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2018.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/522060-ron-desantis-makes-5m-spanish-language-media-buy/
The Cuban-American vote goes predominately Republican due to most having fled from Castro, or their parents did. And Florida has a lot of Cuban-Americans. With CRT also being marketed as being bundled with spooky words like "Marxism" and "socialism" these tactic go over well there. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/02/most-cuban-american-voters-identify-as-republican-in-2020/
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 12, 2022, 04:43:43 AM
I just finished reading a good book, Cancel This Book: The Progressive Case Against Cancel Culture, which is written by Dan Kovalik, who is a labour lawyer, marched in BLM protests, etc. so he's an honest progressive but he makes a great case for why that "misplaced anger" undermines any chance at real reconciliation.
It would be real helpful if anyone could actually give a clear operational definition of cancel culture. This video from journalist Michael Hobbes does a pretty good job of breaking down how amorphous and self serving everyone's definition is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkVYvp_CumI
In this podcast he goes into deeper analysis of the manufacturing of outrage around the specter of "cancel culture"
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cancel-culture/id1380008439?i=1000524480233
Quote from: Diogenes on May 13, 2022, 08:29:25 AM
Quote from: downer on May 11, 2022, 09:35:30 AM
Back at the start of the thread, I asked how CRT issues play with Hispanic voters in Florida. They are 16+% of the voters. They tend to be democrat, but that doesn't mean they are fully on board with CRT and they not feel they have much of a role in any reconciliation between races. Presumably politicians like DeSantis want those voters. He won 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2018.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/522060-ron-desantis-makes-5m-spanish-language-media-buy/
The Cuban-American vote goes predominately Republican due to most having fled from Castro, or their parents did. And Florida has a lot of Cuban-Americans. With CRT also being marketed as being bundled with spooky words like "Marxism" and "socialism" these tactic go over well there. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/02/most-cuban-american-voters-identify-as-republican-in-2020/
It also seems that the Republican stronghold on Cuban-Americans loosens with subsequent generations.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-cuban-american-poll-20190131-story.html
But I still wonder whether the younger generation are going to feel a lot of identification with BLM or CRT movements. They certainly are not going to feel guilt for slavery and racial segregation in the USA.
Quote from: downer on May 13, 2022, 08:40:17 AM
Quote from: Diogenes on May 13, 2022, 08:29:25 AM
Quote from: downer on May 11, 2022, 09:35:30 AM
Back at the start of the thread, I asked how CRT issues play with Hispanic voters in Florida. They are 16+% of the voters. They tend to be democrat, but that doesn't mean they are fully on board with CRT and they not feel they have much of a role in any reconciliation between races. Presumably politicians like DeSantis want those voters. He won 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2018.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/522060-ron-desantis-makes-5m-spanish-language-media-buy/
The Cuban-American vote goes predominately Republican due to most having fled from Castro, or their parents did. And Florida has a lot of Cuban-Americans. With CRT also being marketed as being bundled with spooky words like "Marxism" and "socialism" these tactic go over well there. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/02/most-cuban-american-voters-identify-as-republican-in-2020/
It also seems that the Republican stronghold on Cuban-Americans loosens with subsequent generations.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-cuban-american-poll-20190131-story.html
But I still wonder whether the younger generation are going to feel a lot of identification with BLM or CRT movements. They certainly are not going to feel guilt for slavery and racial segregation in the USA.
There's no reason that
anyone who immigrated (or whose
parents immigrated) within the past 60 years should either, for the same reason.
I wonder...
Would it work if we just pretend there are no black, brown, yellow, or beige people, and never have been?
Then the pinkish-white folks wouldn't have to feel bad, or anything...
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 06:44:46 AM
I wonder...
Would it work if we just pretend there are no black, brown, yellow, or beige people, and never have been?
Then the pinkish-white folks wouldn't have to feel bad, or anything...
M.
And then the black, brown, yellow and beige people could just accept that they are not the normal standard and learn to live with it and stop complaining.
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 06:44:46 AM
I wonder...
Would it work if we just pretend there are no black, brown, yellow, or beige people, and never have been?
Then the pinkish-white folks wouldn't have to feel bad, or anything...
M.
Are the pinkish-white folks supposed to feel bad?
Quote from: ciao_yall on May 14, 2022, 07:35:49 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 06:44:46 AM
I wonder...
Would it work if we just pretend there are no black, brown, yellow, or beige people, and never have been?
Then the pinkish-white folks wouldn't have to feel bad, or anything...
M.
And then the black, brown, yellow and beige people could just accept that they are not the normal standard and learn to live with it and stop complaining.
Seems to me that a great many pinkish-white people don't want the normal standard to be the norm but would rather that we are all accepted and acknowledged for who we are.
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 08:39:24 AM
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
I think there are some who believe the only real way to motivate people to "do the right thing" is to make them
feel horribly guilty. The idea that people may be motivated to do good things by their moral principles alone, without all kinds of emotional baggage, is foreign.
I don't see it as surprising that many people want to improve bad schools, and crime-ridden neighborhoods
just because that's the kind of society they want to live in, rather than because someone else is trying to
blame them for the status quo. But clearly not everyone sees it that way.
Yesterday in Buffalo, NY:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/buffalo-supermarket-mass-shooting-leaves-7-dead-law-enforcement-source-rcna28883
GRT, not CRT, is what we should be outlawing...
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2022, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 08:39:24 AM
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
I think there are some who believe the only real way to motivate people to "do the right thing" is to make them feel horribly guilty. The idea that people may be motivated to do good things by their moral principles alone, without all kinds of emotional baggage, is foreign.
I don't see it as surprising that many people want to improve bad schools, and crime-ridden neighborhoods just because that's the kind of society they want to live in, rather than because someone else is trying to blame them for the status quo. But clearly not everyone sees it that way.
Well, in moral theology, one idea is that an admission of guilt (sometimes referred to as a sense of conviction) is a necessary precursor to the amendment of life.
So....if anyone's feeling guilty, and acknowledging it, that's a potentially hopeful sign....
M.
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2022, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 08:39:24 AM
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
I think there are some who believe the only real way to motivate people to "do the right thing" is to make them feel horribly guilty. The idea that people may be motivated to do good things by their moral principles alone, without all kinds of emotional baggage, is foreign.
I don't see it as surprising that many people want to improve bad schools, and crime-ridden neighborhoods just because that's the kind of society they want to live in, rather than because someone else is trying to blame them for the status quo. But clearly not everyone sees it that way.
Well, in moral theology, one idea is that an admission of guilt (sometimes referred to as a sense of conviction) is a necessary precursor to the amendment of life.
So....if anyone's feeling guilty, and acknowledging it, that's a potentially hopeful sign....
M.
If it's real guilt, then that's true. However, if it's "pseudo-guilt", it's not.
The very fact that people are so willing to publicly "admit guilt" is a sign that it's not real. Anyone who has done something for which they
genuinely feel ashamed hates to admit it, even to themselves, and if they must make an apology, want it to be as private as possible. Justin Trudeau crying on camera and "apologizing" for actions decades ago is in sharp contrast to how he responds to negative consequences of actions of
his own or
his own government, for which he is loathe to admit
any remorse. (Any negative consequences of his own actions are somehow
not his fault.)
"The true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching." -John Wooden
A corollary might be
"The
least reliable sign of a person's character is what they do in public, especially when they're being explicitly observed."
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 15, 2022, 05:54:09 AM
The very fact that people are so willing to publicly "admit guilt" is a sign that it's not real. Anyone who has done something for which they genuinely feel ashamed hates to admit it, even to themselves, and if they must make an apology, want it to be as private as possible.
This intuition of yours is an empirical claim, and stands in need of actual empirical evidence. While it's plausible, my intuitions tell me differently. In particular, I used to have the similar intuition that people didn't knowingly do or want bad things, at least not on a wide scale. The last six years, with their imperative of "triggering the l1Bz"have sorely disabused me of that notion.
But while we're at it, let's not conflate individual behaviour and motivations with institutional behaviours, motivations, and imperatives.
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2022, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 08:39:24 AM
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
I think there are some who believe the only real way to motivate people to "do the right thing" is to make them feel horribly guilty. The idea that people may be motivated to do good things by their moral principles alone, without all kinds of emotional baggage, is foreign.
I don't see it as surprising that many people want to improve bad schools, and crime-ridden neighborhoods just because that's the kind of society they want to live in, rather than because someone else is trying to blame them for the status quo. But clearly not everyone sees it that way.
Well, in moral theology, one idea is that an admission of guilt (sometimes referred to as a sense of conviction) is a necessary precursor to the amendment of life.
So....if anyone's feeling guilty, and acknowledging it, that's a potentially hopeful sign....
M.
I have three objections to this idea.
The first is the aforementioned idea that I or anyone living should feel "guilty." I did not do these things from the past. Why should I or anyone "acknowledge" "guilt?" Teach the history in all its awfulness but don't blame the people who were not there. I am simply not "guilty" of the atrocities from the past.
As a purely practical objection, this approach to "guilt" is alienating the people you want to change. I emphatically DO NOT see a "potentially hopeful sign" anywhere on race relations. In fact, I think the last decade has shown a tremendous backsliding. Trump did not come out of nowhere. He is part of a backlash on many fronts, part of which is this "white guilt" topos.
What is "the right thing" in this instance?
And finally, this culture of shaming encourages ideologues to attack their allies. The Bright Ages Twitter ridiculousness is a perfect example: two white scholars attempt to write a multi-cultural, culturally sensitive revision of the middle ages...but they do not quite state things in terms that are acceptable to someone like Rambaran-Olm, and thus they are attacked. It is cowardly of Rambaran-Olm to assault fellow academics (who she knows will react) but leave the Trump rallies alone (where she knows her views will be risible or incendiary), and in turn Rambaran-Olm is roundly roasted by academics and non-academics alike.
So, while I generally bow to your wisdom in most things, mamselle, I am unconvinced in this case. I do not think the system of guilting (white) people is legitimate or effective.
I do sometimes wonder if the perspective of people who came into adulthood in the 70s and 80s is predicated upon this kind of confrontational, you-must-acknowledge-the-sins-of-the-past ethos.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 15, 2022, 09:43:57 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 14, 2022, 11:58:39 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 14, 2022, 10:02:34 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 14, 2022, 08:39:24 AM
Hmmmmm...seems to me these comments by good people who care are exactly what I was talking about earlier----the whole "sins of the father" deal.
We do morph quickly into ad hom when this subject comes up, or the thread just completely shuts down.
I think there are some who believe the only real way to motivate people to "do the right thing" is to make them feel horribly guilty. The idea that people may be motivated to do good things by their moral principles alone, without all kinds of emotional baggage, is foreign.
I don't see it as surprising that many people want to improve bad schools, and crime-ridden neighborhoods just because that's the kind of society they want to live in, rather than because someone else is trying to blame them for the status quo. But clearly not everyone sees it that way.
Well, in moral theology, one idea is that an admission of guilt (sometimes referred to as a sense of conviction) is a necessary precursor to the amendment of life.
So....if anyone's feeling guilty, and acknowledging it, that's a potentially hopeful sign....
M.
I have three objections to this idea.
The first is the aforementioned idea that I or anyone living should feel "guilty." I did not do these things from the past. Why should I or anyone "acknowledge" "guilt?" Teach the history in all its awfulness but don't blame the people who were not there. I am simply not "guilty" of the atrocities from the past.
As a purely practical objection, this approach to "guilt" is alienating the people you want to change. I emphatically DO NOT see a "potentially hopeful sign" anywhere on race relations. In fact, I think the last decade has shown a tremendous backsliding. Trump did not come out of nowhere. He is part of a backlash on many fronts, part of which is this "white guilt" topos.
What is "the right thing" in this instance?
And finally, this culture of shaming encourages ideologues to attack their allies. The Bright Ages Twitter ridiculousness is a perfect example: two white scholars attempt to write a multi-cultural, culturally sensitive revision of the middle ages...but they do not quite state things in terms that are acceptable to someone like Rambaran-Olm, and thus they are attacked. It is cowardly of Rambaran-Olm to assault fellow academics (who she knows will react) but leave the Trump rallies alone (where she knows her views will be risible or incendiary), and in turn Rambaran-Olm is roundly roasted by academics and non-academics alike.
So, while I generally bow to your wisdom in most things, mamselle, I am unconvinced in this case. I do not think the system of guilting (white) people is legitimate or effective.
Well said.
Along these lines, I'm probably like a lot of people in that I'm happy to volunteer and help with all kinds of organizations, and I don't want or need any special recognition for my contributions, but I'm NOT motivated to invest myself with any organization that requires me to wallow in guilt to do so.
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
The confessor often works with the former--whose feelings are very real to them, but may be rooted in some past trauma for which they were not actually responsible--to help them find a qualified therapist who can help them sort the causal issues out and find healing for themselves.
The confessor works with the latter to work through the sequence of admission, acceptance of responsibility, any attendant issues of forgiveness (including forgiveness of themselves), penance, and intentional change (amendment of life.).
Sometimes "feeling guilty" is tied to "being guilty,;" sometimes they're different.
But the careful confessor/spiritual director works through all those points very specifically, precisely because causality may or may not be tied to chronology and/or actual capability or culpability.
It's not a careless process.
M.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 13, 2022, 08:47:17 AM
There's no reason that anyone who immigrated (or whose parents immigrated) within the past 60 years should either, for the same reason.
Slavery was rampant in the Caribbean. Not to mention that's where Columbus first landed and started the genocide.
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
The confessor often works with the former--whose feelings are very real to them, but may be rooted in some past trauma for which they were not actually responsible--to help them find a qualified therapist who can help them sort the causal issues out and find healing for themselves.
The confessor works with the latter to work through the sequence of admission, acceptance of responsibility, any attendant issues of forgiveness (including forgiveness of themselves), penance, and intentional change (amendment of life.).
Sometimes "feeling guilty" is tied to "being guilty,;" sometimes they're different.
But the careful confessor/spiritual director works through all those points very specifically, precisely because causality may or may not be tied to chronology and/or actual capability or culpability.
It's not a careless process.
M.
I'm sorry, mamselle, but I am missing the point of your analogy here. It is probably my obtuseness.
Are you saying that we contemporary pinkish-white people (which is an excellent description of my complexion, actually) need to work through our own culpability to, in this case, acknowledge unspecified evidence of historical wrongdoing?
I can admit their was much that we should regret as a nation. I must say, I am unaware of any organizations that are trying to force me into wallowing in guilt.
The organization I think I loathe most in the US is the NRA.
I will now go back to my national park hiking. Just finished Mount Rainier and Olympic. Planning on six to eight more this year.
QuoteI can admit their was much that we should regret as a nation.
Such as ending slavery, at great cost, including, but not limited to, death on the battlefield, to non-slave owners.
Quote from: dismalist on May 15, 2022, 09:05:38 PM
QuoteI can admit their was much that we should regret as a nation.
Such as ending slavery, at great cost, including, but not limited to, death on the battlefield, to non-slave owners.
This, as in my use of "their" rather than there, was of course not one of them. For some, remember the seizure of property of US citizens of Japanese descent, the rise of the KKK (including a governor of my former home state), the killing of MLK, the John Birch Society, proliferation of white supremacist organizations, the "war on drugs", inadequate social safety net and the abandonment of workers and single mothers. Please stop responding to comments with logical phony baloniness. (Yes, I coined that just now). Regretting some things does not imply I don't value and celebrate many others.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on May 15, 2022, 08:38:56 PM
I can admit their was much that we should regret as a nation. I must say, I am unaware of any organizations that are trying to force me into wallowing in guilt.
The organization I think I loathe most in the US is the NRA.
I will now go back to my national park hiking. Just finished Mount Rainier and Olympic. Planning on six to eight more this year.
Damn, Jim, that sounds wonderful!!!!
There is this: The White Privilege Institute (https://www.theprivilegeinstitute.com/wpc23charlotte)
There are all those "diversity training" sessions most of us have to attend at some point----although maybe the rhetoric at yours is a little less fraught than the ones I have attended.
There's this one too: System of White Supremacy and White Privilege (https://www.racialequitytools.org/resources/fundamentals/core-concepts/system-of-white-supremacy-and-white-privilege)
Or this: Why DEI And Anti-Racism Work Needs To Decenter Whiteness (https://www.forbes.com/sites/janicegassam/2021/02/15/why-dei-and-anti-racism-work-needs-to-decenter-whiteness/?sh=4100b67b5886)
Quote
Diversity education and training typically focuses on how to help white professionals learn about their biases and racism. Diversity education has not changed much over time. Decades ago, diversity efforts in corporate America focused on helping white people understand and recognize their racism.
<snip>
The idea that anti-racism and DEI education has to be packaged in a digestible way for employees to be receptive to it demonstrates a larger problem within workplaces. Change will not come through comfortability. A desire for comfortability is what has sustained workplace diversity efforts for decades and few changes have been made in regards to progress. Companies are still suffering from the same issues year after year.
Or my favorite, a very white Karen demanding that white people stop having opinions or be labeled racists: White Fragility (http://www.beacon.org/White-Fragility-P1672.aspx)
And so on. So yeah, there are plenty that are plugged into the rage machine and working toward the wallowing of the pinkish-white people. Their attempts to wallow people are definitely mixed.
QuotePlease stop responding to comments with logical phony baloniness. (Yes, I coined that just now).
I promise, jimbo, I promise! :-)
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
In the Christian tradition, "guilt" is based on actions committed
by an individual; it is not based on actions of the person's ancestors or community members. (Original sin is something common to
all of humanity; it's not like "privilege" that some are supposed to have and others are supposed to lack.)
I'm not aware of any Christian tradition of guilt based on "acknowledged, evidentiary proof" of events that happened before an individual was even born, or in which one took no part.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 03:57:15 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
In the Christian tradition, "guilt" is based on actions committed by an individual; it is not based on actions of the person's ancestors or community members. (Original sin is something common to all of humanity; it's not like "privilege" that some are supposed to have and others are supposed to lack.)
I'm not aware of any Christian tradition of guilt based on "acknowledged, evidentiary proof" of events that happened before an individual was even born, or in which one took no part.
Exodus 20:5
Quote from: nebo113 on May 16, 2022, 05:10:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 03:57:15 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
In the Christian tradition, "guilt" is based on actions committed by an individual; it is not based on actions of the person's ancestors or community members. (Original sin is something common to all of humanity; it's not like "privilege" that some are supposed to have and others are supposed to lack.)
I'm not aware of any Christian tradition of guilt based on "acknowledged, evidentiary proof" of events that happened before an individual was even born, or in which one took no part.
Exodus 20:5
Also, that's the whole point of the doctrine of original sin.
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 16, 2022, 05:41:04 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on May 16, 2022, 05:10:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 03:57:15 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
In the Christian tradition, "guilt" is based on actions committed by an individual; it is not based on actions of the person's ancestors or community members. (Original sin is something common to all of humanity; it's not like "privilege" that some are supposed to have and others are supposed to lack.)
I'm not aware of any Christian tradition of guilt based on "acknowledged, evidentiary proof" of events that happened before an individual was even born, or in which one took no part.
Exodus 20:5
Also, that's the whole point of the doctrine of original sin.
That passage is about
consequences of sin affecting several generations; there's nothing about each of those generations having to atone.
Similarly, Deuteronomy 7:9 says
"Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations"
God's blessing will be felt for a thousand generations of faithful people. (This doesn't imply that any of those thousand generations get a "free pass" morally; just that they will benefit from the legacy of their forbears.)
Also, original sin goes back to the Garden of Eden, and affects
all of humanity. There are not "privileged" and "oppressed" classes where people from one group have original sin and people from the other don't.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 06:10:50 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 16, 2022, 05:41:04 AM
Quote from: nebo113 on May 16, 2022, 05:10:34 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 16, 2022, 03:57:15 AM
Quote from: mamselle on May 15, 2022, 05:15:56 PM
There's a difference acknowledged in confessional training between "feeling guilty," which may be fact- or neurosis-based, and "being guilty," which is based on acknowledged, evidentiary proof.
In the Christian tradition, "guilt" is based on actions committed by an individual; it is not based on actions of the person's ancestors or community members. (Original sin is something common to all of humanity; it's not like "privilege" that some are supposed to have and others are supposed to lack.)
I'm not aware of any Christian tradition of guilt based on "acknowledged, evidentiary proof" of events that happened before an individual was even born, or in which one took no part.
Exodus 20:5
Also, that's the whole point of the doctrine of original sin.
That passage is about consequences of sin affecting several generations; there's nothing about each of those generations having to atone.
Similarly, Deuteronomy 7:9 says
"Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations"
God's blessing will be felt for a thousand generations of faithful people. (This doesn't imply that any of those thousand generations get a "free pass" morally; just that they will benefit from the legacy of their forbears.)
Also, original sin goes back to the Garden of Eden, and affects all of humanity. There are not "privileged" and "oppressed" classes where people from one group have original sin and people from the other don't.
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
I am less concerned with feelings of guilt than with reconciliation. As a Christian, I am well aware of the harm done to the LGBTQ community over the centuries, and still today. I have not personally oppressed anyone who is LGBTQ, but I have inherited a religion that did and does. I am called to work towards reconciliation, to heal the harm done in God's name to my gay, transgender, and other queer neighbors. I don't have to be personally guilty in order to recognize the harm that has been done and to work to heal it.
The same goes for racial reconciliation. That's not my particular calling (in part because it's not terribly relevant in my current context), but I support those who are called in that way.
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
Judaism (and by extension Christianity) have a solid history of the community
and the individual. Individuals are highlighted as being either more or less moral than the community, depending on the story. (And of course, Christ is the ultimate individual, whose actions were completely unique, and whose life was almost entirely lived
in contrast to his community.)
Quote
I am less concerned with feelings of guilt than with reconciliation. As a Christian, I am well aware of the harm done to the LGBTQ community over the centuries, and still today. I have not personally oppressed anyone who is LGBTQ, but I have inherited a religion that did and does. I am called to work towards reconciliation, to heal the harm done in God's name to my gay, transgender, and other queer neighbors. I don't have to be personally guilty in order to recognize the harm that has been done and to work to heal it.
The same goes for racial reconciliation. That's not my particular calling (in part because it's not terribly relevant in my current context), but I support those who are called in that way.
I have no problem with individuals following their own calling to any particular cause. It is the attempt to "guilt" others into accepting the
same calling that I take issue with.
Many events in Exodos, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, etc. as well as the whole Babylonian Captivity (the first one) are based on the assessment of communal guilt for misdirected worship, action, and strategic behaviors when instructed to do otherwise.
Christian Scriptures tend in part to be more personalized and transcendent, but even there, we see instances of misguided community behavior visited with strongly-worded reprimands (Corinthians, anyone?) and reminders--and praise for conversional behavior.
Communal as well as individual guilt--as adjudged, proven responsibility for a bad thing--is very real throughout the received canons of the Hebrew and Christian testaments, and in the wider literature of both communities--and in many other religious systems.
M.
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
I am less concerned with feelings of guilt than with reconciliation. As a Christian, I am well aware of the harm done to the LGBTQ community over the centuries, and still today. I have not personally oppressed anyone who is LGBTQ, but I have inherited a religion that did and does. I am called to work towards reconciliation, to heal the harm done in God's name to my gay, transgender, and other queer neighbors. I don't have to be personally guilty in order to recognize the harm that has been done and to work to heal it.
The same goes for racial reconciliation. That's not my particular calling (in part because it's not terribly relevant in my current context), but I support those who are called in that way.
I have personally worked on four individual "diversity initiatives" in my time, have worked as a "diversity advocate" on one campus, wrote a grant to fund a faculty reading group focused on historically overlooked African-American poets, walked in a number of anti-racist protests, and ensured that every semester in which I teach people of color, LGBTQ writers when applicable, and women authors whenever applicable are found on the syllabus. Sometimes that final item is difficult----say, survey of British literature----but one can always find Margery Kemp, Hildegard of Bingen, or Marie de France (even though those last two are not British) on my syllabus.
If you want to tell me I should do more out of a general care for humanity, I would accept that----you'd be right.
But these are voluntary efforts created by good will and hope for the future, not by official mandate, guilt, or peer pressure. I did not design the certain structures of my society. They were well in place by the time I was born and I have done my best to navigate them and a little bit to change them because that is the right thing to do.
For me that is the difference.
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
...
Alas. the Enlightenment only partially freed us from the tribe, or the idiocy of village life, as Charly Marx put it. The residue of the tribe is still within us. It is what makes wars possible and seemingly lucrative. It also sorts people, even , or especially, in democratic societies.
No one chooses systems -- those are myths -- but there is one, ours, which just growed -- in which cooperation is voluntary, not ordained. And it's still founded on the family, the only efficient collective, and rather less on the individual.
Quote from: dismalist on May 16, 2022, 12:50:43 PM
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
...
Alas. the Enlightenment only partially freed us from the tribe, or the idiocy of village life, as Charly Marx put it. The residue of the tribe is still within us. It is what makes wars possible and seemingly lucrative. It also sorts people, even , or especially, in democratic societies.
No one chooses systems -- those are myths -- but there is one, ours, which just growed -- in which cooperation is voluntary, not ordained. And it's still founded on the family, the only efficient collective, and rather less on the individual.
It's biological. We are, by nature, tribal animals, not rational individuals.
Quote from: pgher on May 17, 2022, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 16, 2022, 12:50:43 PM
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
...
Alas. the Enlightenment only partially freed us from the tribe, or the idiocy of village life, as Charly Marx put it. The residue of the tribe is still within us. It is what makes wars possible and seemingly lucrative. It also sorts people, even , or especially, in democratic societies.
No one chooses systems -- those are myths -- but there is one, ours, which just growed -- in which cooperation is voluntary, not ordained. And it's still founded on the family, the only efficient collective, and rather less on the individual.
It's biological. We are, by nature, tribal animals, not rational individuals.
We do stuff by trial and error. Some of that turns out to be useful. That's not rationality, but rather habits and traditions. It just growed in a Darwinian-like process. That stuff does not eliminate our tribalism, but conditions it.
Rational attempts at reconstructing society have invariably led to blood baths.
Quote from: pgher on May 17, 2022, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: dismalist on May 16, 2022, 12:50:43 PM
Quote from: pgher on May 16, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
The Enlightenment did a lot of great things, but one negative was the creation and elevation of the concept of the individual. Historically, people understood themselves to be a part of a family, tribe, and nation by default. Now we think of ourselves as individuals who may choose to become a part of a grouping. Think about social contract theory: we choose to give up some of our freedom in order to participate in society. Bull. We are born into a society that has certain structures in place already, not of our choosing.
...
Alas. the Enlightenment only partially freed us from the tribe, or the idiocy of village life, as Charly Marx put it. The residue of the tribe is still within us. It is what makes wars possible and seemingly lucrative. It also sorts people, even , or especially, in democratic societies.
No one chooses systems -- those are myths -- but there is one, ours, which just growed -- in which cooperation is voluntary, not ordained. And it's still founded on the family, the only efficient collective, and rather less on the individual.
It's biological. We are, by nature, tribal animals, not rational individuals.
That's true, but we are not entirely controlled by our tribal tendencies. (Among other things, because we all belong to
multiple "tribes", such as family workplace, friends, etc., any individual will have many unrelated tribal loyalties. Our individual choices will reflect
which tribal loyalties we value the most.)
Sorry, how does any of this get anyone off the hook for 10 people killed in a shopping center by an admitted racist, or 1 death and 5 injuries in a place of worship where social/racial/ethnic difference was also at issue?
Focusing on CRT as a 'problem' has led to a bigger problem--namely, GRT--and everyone is conveniently side-stepping that issue here...or perhaps they ascribe to it and are trying to smokescreen readers into not noticing?
Blowsy digressions get you nowhere...
M.
I'm afraid I don't know what "GRT" is, mamselle.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 18, 2022, 08:36:09 AM
I'm afraid I don't know what "GRT" is, mamselle.
Great Replacement Theory?
The far right media has been promoting GRT for a long time. Helpful article here:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/17/buffalo-shooting-fox-news-tucker-carlson-great-replacement-theory
It is true that they also blow up issues such as socially motivated questions in math textbooks as a way of promoting their conspiracy theory.
Quote from: Anselm on May 18, 2022, 09:53:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 18, 2022, 08:36:09 AM
I'm afraid I don't know what "GRT" is, mamselle.
Great Replacement Theory?
Oh, of course. That F***er Carlson's pet monster. Hope they sue his ### off.
More of the rage machine in action.
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 18, 2022, 10:49:37 AM
Quote from: Anselm on May 18, 2022, 09:53:20 AM
Quote from: Wahoo Redux on May 18, 2022, 08:36:09 AM
I'm afraid I don't know what "GRT" is, mamselle.
Great Replacement Theory?
Oh, of course. That F***er Carlson's pet monster. Hope they sue his ### off.
More of the rage machine in action.
I feel sorry for you.