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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 06:38:20 AM

Title: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 06:38:20 AM
And Bari Weiss is not going anywhere.

Discuss if you wish. Scroll past if you wish.
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/i-refuse-to-stand-by-while-my-students
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 14, 2021, 07:21:44 AM
I read the essay yesterday. It sounds like a horrible environment to teach in, and I wouldn't send my children there.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Anyone who gives any shits about free speech knows that Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

As for the essay... there's a lot of telling and not much showing, virtually no context, no evidence, it's full of lopsided descriptions I wouldn't trust, it throws the word 'philosophy' around an awful lot (and inappropriately), and this "mathematics teacher" apparently teaches "the art of persuasion".

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 08:25:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Anyone who gives any shits about free speech knows that Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

As for the essay... there's a lot of telling and not much showing, virtually no context, no evidence, it's full of lopsided descriptions I wouldn't trust, it throws the word 'philosophy' around an awful lot (and inappropriately), and this "mathematics teacher" apparently teaches "the art of persuasion".

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

If it is legit, he'll be fired within a week or two. Whether that happens will definitively support or refute the claims.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 14, 2021, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Anyone who gives any shits about free speech knows that Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

As for the essay... there's a lot of telling and not much showing, virtually no context, no evidence, it's full of lopsided descriptions I wouldn't trust, it throws the word 'philosophy' around an awful lot (and inappropriately), and this "mathematics teacher" apparently teaches "the art of persuasion".

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

Agree completely with paragraph the first. I generally struggle with how I respond to essays like this, as I've experienced completely legitimate (and the opposite) accounts first hand.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 02:25:31 PM
Googling around, there's more. From the 'Statement on Inclusive Language Guide' on their website:

"The controversy surrounding the Grace Church School Inclusive Language Guide for faculty and staff is based on false information. Some news accounts incorrectly reported that the guide was for students and that we banned the use of words such as "mom" and "dad" as politically incorrect. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We provided the Inclusive Language Guide to faculty and staff last September as one of many initiatives to combat racism and promote the most welcoming and respectful learning environment possible for the entire community. The guide was not issued as a mandatory policy or included in curricula or student instruction, and it was never intended for student use. We should have been more explicit about the guide's intent and purpose: a tool for professional development and adult continuing education to help our faculty and staff foster a culture of sensitivity and inclusivity in interactions with our students."

So the controversy didn't start just now with the author and his conversations with frightened students. And I guess we won't get to see the Inclusive Language Guide, as it's...hmm, are they saying they no longer stand by its content or are they saying something else? I guess damage control is tough to navigate.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 03:06:54 PM
They stand by its content. It was a guide, and didn't represent any kind of requirement or mandatory code of conduct.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 14, 2021, 04:12:30 PM
Here it is: https://pdfhost.io/v/MSUTbDaqD_GCS_Inclusive_Language_Guide_21pdf.pdf

I did find one or two interesting things. One, you get to identify your own race. Two, black people are to be referred to as 'people of color.' Whereas, I don't think they necessarily speak for everyone. For example, I don't mind if you refer to me as 'that colored gentleman, professor Mahagonny.'

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 03:06:54 PM
They stand by its content. It was a guide, and didn't represent any kind of requirement or mandatory code of conduct.

Well, it's certainly heavy duty pressure to conform to a new set of rules. I wonder how they see the origin of it as representing some kind of consensus among stakeholders? Was that ever even brought up?
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 15, 2021, 06:31:37 PM
Funny, I thought there might be more interest in this thread topic, considering its relevance to free speech and other concerns. Speaking for myself, I worry that people who want to control how you talk also want to control how you think. Mass conformity.

Well, maybe this will stir the soup. I am interested in what people think about this.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/insight/2021/03/21/The-miseducation-of-America-s-elites-Bari-Weiss/stories/202103210008

https://www.getreligion.org/getreligion/2021/3/23/keeping-up-with-the-times-if-schools-nix-mom-and-dad-is-mainstream-journalism-next

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/new-york-city-teacher-antiracism-training-indoctrination

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/03/12/nyc-school-defends-guide-asking-students-avoid-saying-mom-dad/4668994001/

As posted above, the Statement says the guide was not meant for students. But it's available on the website. So that's confusing. Not to mention, if teachers avoid saying 'mom and dad' and other common phrases why wouldn't students ask why?

The school's reponse plays down the importance of the controversy they are causing. They are clearly backpedaling. These are the same type of people who claim to want 'difficult conversations.'  Let's clear the air! What is being done here, and what is expected of everyone? If the publication was a mistake, there is always the option of apologizing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9474795/Principal-NYC-private-school-disappointed-teachers-expose.html

Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 14, 2021, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

Agree completely with paragraph the first. I generally struggle with how I respond to essays like this, as I've experienced completely legitimate (and the opposite) accounts first hand.

So a couple of guys on the internet say Bari Weiss is not reliable, Do you have examples, or is your PhD enough?
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: pgher on April 15, 2021, 07:27:50 PM
As far as not using mom-and-dad, I can get behind that. Mr. Rogers pioneered that sort of thing decades ago:
https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children (https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children)

Inclusive language matters, especially as family structures change.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Kron3007 on April 16, 2021, 04:44:56 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 15, 2021, 07:27:50 PM
As far as not using mom-and-dad, I can get behind that. Mr. Rogers pioneered that sort of thing decades ago:
https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children (https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children)

Inclusive language matters, especially as family structures change.

Yeah,me too.  I can see the potential issue of always refering to mom and dad for children that do not have them.  I wouldn't agree with mandating language, but I don't think that is actually what is going on.  This seems more like the "attack" on Christmas that has apparently been going on for decades.

It does seem to be catching on though.  I have school age children and we noticed a while ago that teachers in our public school system generally do not use mom or dad, they have been asking out kids about their adults.  We thought it was nice.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 16, 2021, 05:29:13 AM
Quote from: Kron3007 on April 16, 2021, 04:44:56 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 15, 2021, 07:27:50 PM
As far as not using mom-and-dad, I can get behind that. Mr. Rogers pioneered that sort of thing decades ago:
https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children (https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children)

Inclusive language matters, especially as family structures change.

Yeah,me too.  I can see the potential issue of always refering to mom and dad for children that do not have them.  I wouldn't agree with mandating language, but I don't think that is actually what is going on.  This seems more like the "attack" on Christmas that has apparently been going on for decades.


My dad died before I started school. I was never traumatized by teachers (or anyone else) referring to "dads". My wife died when my kids were young, and they were never traumatized by teachers (or anyone else) referring to "moms".

Children are aware when their home situation is uncommon, but as long as they have a loving family, they're not going to be damaged by reminders (which are everywhere) of what is more common. Kids who from chaotic family situations, regardless of whether they look "normal", are going to be much more fragile no matter what language is used.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: jimbogumbo on April 16, 2021, 05:56:52 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 15, 2021, 06:31:37 PM

Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 14, 2021, 10:07:22 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

Agree completely with paragraph the first. I generally struggle with how I respond to essays like this, as I've experienced completely legitimate (and the opposite) accounts first hand.

So a couple of guys on the internet say Bari Weiss is not reliable, Do you have examples, or is your PhD enough?

https://mondoweiss.net/2020/07/bari-weiss-leaves-the-nyt-and-thats-bad-for-zionists/
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 16, 2021, 07:31:32 AM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 16, 2021, 05:56:52 AM

https://mondoweiss.net/2020/07/bari-weiss-leaves-the-nyt-and-thats-bad-for-zionists/

Their head butting is about the tension in the Middle East. Old stuff.

This is a hoot:

"The Times op-ed page is surely making moves to the left these days in the context of the George Floyd uprisings..."

Half of the editorials from the NYT that I'm able to see these days (I admit I don't subscribe) could be summarized by 'police shoot black people whenever they feel like it for fun and The USA, except for us, thinks it's just fine' and a lot of ink and time could be saved.
Or the other thunderclap-of-melodrama variety, almost always part of a data-less editorial: 'we haven't yet begun to expose the depth of white-against-black racism in the USA.'

on edit:

Quote from: Kron3007 on April 16, 2021, 04:44:56 AM
Quote from: pgher on April 15, 2021, 07:27:50 PM
As far as not using mom-and-dad, I can get behind that. Mr. Rogers pioneered that sort of thing decades ago:
https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children (https://kottke.org/18/06/freddish-the-special-language-mister-rogers-used-when-talking-to-children)

Inclusive language matters, especially as family structures change.

Yeah,me too.  I can see the potential issue of always refering to mom and dad for children that do not have them.  I wouldn't agree with mandating language, but I don't think that is actually what is going on.  This seems more like the "attack" on Christmas that has apparently been going on for decades.

It does seem to be catching on though.  I have school age children and we noticed a while ago that teachers in our public school system generally do not use mom or dad, they have been asking out kids about their adults.  We thought it was nice.

I get it. Young children who have something other than one mom and one dad at home need to be able to feel that there is nothing strange about them. At the same time, I recall Mr. Rogers as trying to supply things that were missing. He wasn't much on telling other people how to raise their children, that I'm aware of. I might not have minded if he had done a little more of that. We could sure use him today. One great thing he did was to fill a void with music appreciation. (Of course, how can you expect music appreciation training from adults who never acquired any of their own?)
But kids at this school (Grace) are not pre-school age. They can handle the fact that many families have a mom and a dad, even if theirs doesn't.

QuoteMy dad died before I started school. I was never traumatized by teachers (or anyone else) referring to "dads". My wife died when my kids were young, and they were never traumatized by teachers (or anyone else) referring to "moms".

Children are aware when their home situation is uncommon, but as long as they have a loving family, they're not going to be damaged by reminders (which are everywhere) of what is more common. Kids who from chaotic family situations, regardless of whether they look "normal", are going to be much more fragile no matter what language is used.

The 'mom, pop and kids' scenario has a special place in out collective consciousness. And why not? Whatever else good that may be said about it, it's how the human race perpetuates.



Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 16, 2021, 08:05:18 AM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 15, 2021, 06:31:37 PM

So a couple of guys on the internet say Bari Weiss is not reliable, Do you have examples, or is your PhD enough?

I don't have the time to write you an essay. Happily, others have, so I'll let them do it for me. 1 (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/04/why-we-all-hate-bari-weiss-so-much) 2 (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/pretty-loud-for-being-so-silenced) 3 (https://observer.com/2018/05/new-york-times-bari-weiss-intellectual-dark-web-twitter/) 4 (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/15/bari-weiss-new-york-times-resignation-cancel-culture) 5 (https://theintercept.com/2017/08/31/nyts-newest-op-ed-hire-bari-weiss-embodies-its-worst-failings-and-its-lack-of-viewpoint-diversity/) 6 (https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-falsely-denies-her-years-of-attacks-on-the-academic-freedom-of-arab-scholars-who-criticize-israel/)

And if you aren't familiar with her attempts to "cancel" people, then you haven't been reading her columns (granted: why would you? It's a waste of everyone's time, even yours). There's been a long list of people she thinks ought to be "cancelled" (including several since she resigned from the NYT because she's a Free Speech WorrierTM!), but two of her largest and most effective contributions were probably to trying to get several Middle East studies scholars at Columbia fired, notably Joseph Massad, and to trying to secure a tenure denial at Barnard College for Nadia Abu El-Haj.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 10:37:49 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

The 'antiracist' brigade has firm control of most of higher education and has been spreading their influence to K-12, rapidly. What they do is present their far left agenda with a representation of it as a matter of general consensus. This is dishonest.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

There have been things like boycotts of companies and products for ages, from all over the political spectrum. The thing that is more problematic now is that it is becoming increasingly on the grounds of what companies and individuals profess than about what they do. If you're of a certain age, you'll remember boycotts of Nestle for discouraging women in developing countries from breastfeeding in order to sell formula. (Which, in addition to being nutritionally inferior, was also more dangerous for being made with unclean water.) That's one example among many. However, now companies and individuals are being disparaged for not virtue-signalling, or for their leadership not endorsing a particular political viewpoint. (It's kind of funny when people are offended when companies that quickly virtue-signal turn out to not act consistently with their supposed principles. If they're rewarded, or at least not punished, for pretending to believe something, of course they're going to pretend.)
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

There have been things like boycotts of companies and products for ages, from all over the political spectrum. The thing that is more problematic now is that it is becoming increasingly on the grounds of what companies and individuals profess than about what they do. If you're of a certain age, you'll remember boycotts of Nestle for discouraging women in developing countries from breastfeeding in order to sell formula. (Which, in addition to being nutritionally inferior, was also more dangerous for being made with unclean water.) That's one example among many. However, now companies and individuals are being disparaged for not virtue-signalling, or for their leadership not endorsing a particular political viewpoint. (It's kind of funny when people are offended when companies that quickly virtue-signal turn out to not act consistently with their supposed principles. If they're rewarded, or at least not punished, for pretending to believe something, of course they're going to pretend.)

The bolded sound like exactly the kind of thing that Weiss and Dershowitz have tried to cancel people for: They have each attempted to get professors fired for their scholarly research on Palestine. And these are hardly the only cancelation efforts from the right.

If you actually care about this issue, then be honest about the attacks on free speech from your side. If you don't do that, then I (and most other folks) will continue to see this as a disingenuous political effort.

Quote from: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 10:37:49 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

The 'antiracist' brigade has firm control of most of higher education and has been spreading their influence to K-12, rapidly. What they do is present their far left agenda with a representation of it as a matter of general consensus. This is dishonest.

Wow my eyes have been opened by this post! Before I was skeptical because right wingers ignore cancel culture efforts from their side of the aisle, but now that I've read your evidence free right wing talking point I'm ready to join your cause! Where do I sign up to be professionally outraged over trivial stuff on the Internet?
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

There have been things like boycotts of companies and products for ages, from all over the political spectrum. The thing that is more problematic now is that it is becoming increasingly on the grounds of what companies and individuals profess than about what they do. If you're of a certain age, you'll remember boycotts of Nestle for discouraging women in developing countries from breastfeeding in order to sell formula. (Which, in addition to being nutritionally inferior, was also more dangerous for being made with unclean water.) That's one example among many. However, now companies and individuals are being disparaged for not virtue-signalling, or for their leadership not endorsing a particular political viewpoint. (It's kind of funny when people are offended when companies that quickly virtue-signal turn out to not act consistently with their supposed principles. If they're rewarded, or at least not punished, for pretending to believe something, of course they're going to pretend.)

The bolded sound like exactly the kind of thing that Weiss and Dershowitz have tried to cancel people for: They have each attempted to get professors fired for their scholarly research on Palestine. And these are hardly the only cancelation efforts from the right.

Similar to the BDS movement I suppose.

Quote
If you actually care about this issue, then be honest about the attacks on free speech from your side. If you don't do that, then I (and most other folks) will continue to see this as a disingenuous political effort.


My side? I'm a moderate; I've voted for the Green party for the last several elections. Not spouting the talking-points of one extreme of the political spectrum doesn't automatically mean one sympathises with the opposite extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgrZAPUvKyA

Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 11:31:12 AM
Sunworshiper,

I'm concerned, or outraged, as you put it, because this is now a practical problem at work. The 'antiracist' movement has completely informed everything done by the diversity, inclusion, etc. staff and they're involved in every type of professional development, grant seeking, public presentation on campus. They've taken over the faculty union, which I pay to advocate for my workload, job security and compensation interests, not to overhaul my psyche. A friend of mine in another department has been ostracized for his moderate views and the fact that he won an achievement award from a conservative organization. They've done all this in the past year in response to current events and their personal reaction to them (along with a cadre of noisy radicals) and not a consultation with the faculty to find out our reaction, while they purport to be representing our wishes and sensibilities. Repeat, it is dishonest. And could (could already have) lead to violations of the law and documented college policy and collective bargaining agreement provisions.
with edit:  This is happening in a school whose faculty is already disproportionately black, yet the union and the diversity staff clamor for more hiring of POC. (Which is absolutely fine with me, as long they are conservatives. We desperately need more diversity, you know.)
As well, I have always felt a great reverence for outstanding black achievers in my field over the decades.
"Antiracist" - they seem to think that by putting a new word into circulation that they invented being against racism. They did not. Pretty high-handed.

QuoteMy side? I'm a moderate; I've voted for the Green party for the last several elections. Not spouting the talking-points of one extreme of the political spectrum doesn't automatically mean one sympathises with the opposite extreme.

In academe, where I live (blue state) if you're not going around singing the 'anti-racism' theme, you might as well be Richard Spencer.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 11:15:27 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of the many reasons why it is hard to take this cancel culture whining from conservatives seriously is that the voices that they amplify (e.g. Bari Weiss and Alan Dershowitz) have been cancelling people or attempting to do so for years. If conservatives want us to think that this is anything other than disingenuous and pathetic complaining, then they should be equally up-in-arms about the many cancel culture efforts coming from their side of the aisle.

There have been things like boycotts of companies and products for ages, from all over the political spectrum. The thing that is more problematic now is that it is becoming increasingly on the grounds of what companies and individuals profess than about what they do. If you're of a certain age, you'll remember boycotts of Nestle for discouraging women in developing countries from breastfeeding in order to sell formula. (Which, in addition to being nutritionally inferior, was also more dangerous for being made with unclean water.) That's one example among many. However, now companies and individuals are being disparaged for not virtue-signalling, or for their leadership not endorsing a particular political viewpoint. (It's kind of funny when people are offended when companies that quickly virtue-signal turn out to not act consistently with their supposed principles. If they're rewarded, or at least not punished, for pretending to believe something, of course they're going to pretend.)

The bolded sound like exactly the kind of thing that Weiss and Dershowitz have tried to cancel people for: They have each attempted to get professors fired for their scholarly research on Palestine. And these are hardly the only cancelation efforts from the right.

Similar to the BDS movement I suppose.

Quote
If you actually care about this issue, then be honest about the attacks on free speech from your side. If you don't do that, then I (and most other folks) will continue to see this as a disingenuous political effort.


My side? I'm a moderate; I've voted for the Green party for the last several elections. Not spouting the talking-points of one extreme of the political spectrum doesn't automatically mean one sympathises with the opposite extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgrZAPUvKyA

Fair enough, if you say you are not a conservative then I believe you (not that there is anything necessarily wrong with being conservative). Nevertheless, the posting I've observed from you seems to focus exclusively on cancel culture from the left while ignoring similar efforts coming from the right side.

Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 11:31:12 AM
Sunworshiper,

I'm concerned, or outraged, as you put it, because this is now a practical problem at work. The 'antiracist' movement has completely informed everything done by the diversity, inclusion, etc. staff and they're involved in every type of professional development, grant seeking, public presentation on campus. They've taken over the faculty union, which I pay to advocate for my workload, job security and compensation interests, not to overhaul my psyche. A friend of mine in another department has been ostracized for his moderate views and the fact that he won an achievement award from a conservative organization. They've done all this in the past year in response to current events and their personal reaction to them (along with a cadre of noisy radicals) and not a consultation with the faculty to find out our reaction, while they purport to be representing our wishes and sensibilities. Repeat, it is dishonest. And could (could already have) lead to violations of the law and documented college policy and collective bargaining agreement provisions.
with edit:  This is happening in a school whose faculty is already disproportionately black, yet the union and the diversity staff clamor for more hiring of POC. (Which is absolutely fine with me, as long they are conservatives. We desperately need more diversity, you know.)
As well, I have always felt a great reverence for outstanding black achievers in my field over the decades.
"Antiracist" - they seem to think that by putting a new word into circulation that they invented being against racism. They did not. Pretty high-handed.


Honestly, Mahagonny, even if you had a legit beef with the woke people at your institution I'd never be able to tell because your posts are so heavily infused with racial resentment and white victimhood that I can only assume that you are making a mountain out of some pretty minor lip service that your administration is paying to diversity and inclusion.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 02:59:50 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 02:52:29 PM

Honestly, Mahagonny, even if you had a legit beef with the woke people at your institution I'd never be able to tell because your posts are so heavily infused with racial resentment and white victimhood that I can only assume that you are making a mountain out of some pretty minor lip service that your administration is paying to diversity and inclusion.
Obviously you are noticing that I do. And I can't think any reason I wouldn't have a right to resent it. Can you?
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 03:20:19 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 02:59:50 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 11:31:12 AM
Sunworshiper,

I'm concerned, or outraged, as you put it, because this is now a practical problem at work. The 'antiracist' movement has completely informed everything done by the diversity, inclusion, etc. staff and they're involved in every type of professional development, grant seeking, public presentation on campus. They've taken over the faculty union, which I pay to advocate for my workload, job security and compensation interests, not to overhaul my psyche. A friend of mine in another department has been ostracized for his moderate views and the fact that he won an achievement award from a conservative organization. They've done all this in the past year in response to current events and their personal reaction to them (along with a cadre of noisy radicals) and not a consultation with the faculty to find out our reaction, while they purport to be representing our wishes and sensibilities. Repeat, it is dishonest. And could (could already have) lead to violations of the law and documented college policy and collective bargaining agreement provisions.
with edit:  This is happening in a school whose faculty is already disproportionately black, yet the union and the diversity staff clamor for more hiring of POC. (Which is absolutely fine with me, as long they are conservatives. We desperately need more diversity, you know.)
As well, I have always felt a great reverence for outstanding black achievers in my field over the decades.
"Antiracist" - they seem to think that by putting a new word into circulation that they invented being against racism. They did not. Pretty high-handed.


Honestly, Mahagonny, even if you had a legit beef with the woke people at your institution I'd never be able to tell because your posts are so heavily infused with racial resentment and white victimhood that I can only assume that you are making a mountain out of some pretty minor lip service that your administration is paying to diversity and inclusion.

There is no racial resentment and I don't appreciate the smear. There is anger and distrust for the loudest and most militant among the 'antiracist' crowd in my vicinity because of what they are doing, or trying to do.

You are like a walking white victimhood meme. I've really never seen anything like it. If you are doing some weird role playing here, kudos for never breaking character.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 03:20:19 PM
You are like a walking white victimhood meme. I've really never seen anything like it. If you are doing some weird role playing here, kudos for never breaking character.

You are quite wrong. There are quite a number of people who consider today's wokeist crowd a dangerous group. I assumed everyone on here does a fair amount of reading.

On general principle  there is no reason the folks who have entered the arena, big time, with their prescription for social justice, diversity, anti-racism are exempt from criticism.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 03:51:11 PM
More pushback against woke agenda in the schools.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/04/15/a-loudoun-county-teacher-explains-how-leftist-institutional-racism-is-devastating-public-schools/
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 03:54:15 PM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 02:38:22 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 17, 2021, 11:24:36 AM
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on April 17, 2021, 11:15:27 AM

The bolded sound like exactly the kind of thing that Weiss and Dershowitz have tried to cancel people for: They have each attempted to get professors fired for their scholarly research on Palestine. And these are hardly the only cancelation efforts from the right.

Similar to the BDS movement I suppose.

Quote
If you actually care about this issue, then be honest about the attacks on free speech from your side. If you don't do that, then I (and most other folks) will continue to see this as a disingenuous political effort.


My side? I'm a moderate; I've voted for the Green party for the last several elections. Not spouting the talking-points of one extreme of the political spectrum doesn't automatically mean one sympathises with the opposite extreme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgrZAPUvKyA

Fair enough, if you say you are not a conservative then I believe you (not that there is anything necessarily wrong with being conservative). Nevertheless, the posting I've observed from you seems to focus exclusively on cancel culture from the left while ignoring similar efforts coming from the right side.

That's probably because in the media and academia, there are lots of voices calling out misbehaviour on the right, and many fewer calling it out on the left. Actually, having grown up in fairly conservative Christian circles, I observed all kinds of dogmatic positions on things that didn't seem to be affected by evidence, and I assumed it was a religious "thing". As I moved into academic circles as an adult, I was surprised and disappointed to find the same kind of dogmatism on the secular left.

If someone starts defending some far right dogma, maybe I'll get my chance to argue with it......
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 17, 2021, 04:01:09 PM
Another effort to make this thread about the events in the news, rather than myself or the posters who may have read those news articles, which was the reason I started it.

More about the Loudoun schools.https://www.loudountimes.com/news/teacher-accuses-parent-group-of-racism-after-group-criticizes-lcps-equity-efforts/article_69469b9a-9d49-11eb-b2c1-bff954bdd342.html

I think when you call the parents racist, who pay school taxes, you're asking for it. Maybe something will get settled.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 05:53:22 AM
Update: Paul Rossi kicked out till the end of the year; he has the head of the school George Davison on a recording stating that the college demonizes children for being born white.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qXJR6wGXqE
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 06:58:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 08:25:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Anyone who gives any shits about free speech knows that Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

As for the essay... there's a lot of telling and not much showing, virtually no context, no evidence, it's full of lopsided descriptions I wouldn't trust, it throws the word 'philosophy' around an awful lot (and inappropriately), and this "mathematics teacher" apparently teaches "the art of persuasion".

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

If it is legit, he'll be fired within a week or two. Whether that happens will definitively support or refute the claims.

Not "fired" yet, but told to stay home:

Elite NYC private school tells whistleblowing teacher to stay home (https://nypost.com/2021/04/16/nyc-private-school-tells-whistleblowing-teacher-to-stay-home/)

Are any of those claims worthy of trust yet?
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: Parasaurolophus on April 21, 2021, 07:17:16 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 21, 2021, 06:58:54 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 14, 2021, 08:25:49 AM
Quote from: Parasaurolophus on April 14, 2021, 07:37:38 AM
Anyone who gives any shits about free speech knows that Bari Weiss is a blithering idiot who's spent her entire adult life trying to get people fired for their extramural free speech. She also has a terrible record when it comes to distorting the truth, and what people who disagree with her say.

As for the essay... there's a lot of telling and not much showing, virtually no context, no evidence, it's full of lopsided descriptions I wouldn't trust, it throws the word 'philosophy' around an awful lot (and inappropriately), and this "mathematics teacher" apparently teaches "the art of persuasion".

Given those givens, I would not trust the claims being made. I'd leave them out to cure in a barrel of salt for a while first.

If it is legit, he'll be fired within a week or two. Whether that happens will definitively support or refute the claims.

Not "fired" yet, but told to stay home:

Elite NYC private school tells whistleblowing teacher to stay home (https://nypost.com/2021/04/16/nyc-private-school-tells-whistleblowing-teacher-to-stay-home/)

Are any of those claims worthy of trust yet?

No, because that's not quite how evidence works, is it? Applying the principle you articulated above--which, as you observe yourself, has not yet been satisfied anyway--then if this guy was fired for embezzlement, for instance, or for refusing to comply with school policy, that would somehow confirm the truth of his story in all its elements.

I'll wait for more information, thanks. In the meantime, his inflammatory comments don't do much to get me onside.
Title: Re: Math Teacher Stands Up To "Antiracism"
Post by: mahagonny on April 21, 2021, 04:54:41 PM
I believe he's fired.

https://wabcradio.com/2021/04/21/east-village-private-school-removes-teacher-criticizing-school-curriculum-of-white-shaming/