Anyone familiar with WGU or SNHU, particularly their online business programs?
A distant relative has asked me for insight into Western Governors U and Southern New Hampshire U. Relative is in her early forties, has always worked low wage jobs, recently finished GED. Her goal is an accounting degree, so she eventually can get a job that doesn't require being on her feet all day.
Both schools are ACBSP accredited, so either degree should meet her stated goal. She's beneficiary of a trust that can only be used for tuition, so expense is less important than scheduling. She will continue working to support herself, which makes flexible scheduling essential. WGU and SNHU Online appeal to her because they're 100% online and asynchronous.
They both have slick websites, which makes relative suspicious that they're too good to be true. So, does anyone know anything about either program?
Is relative in a state that allows state aid for WGU? WGU can be okay price-wise if that is allowed AND the student is really focused. Their pricing structure looks good, but if you aren't committed the cost rises. From what I've seen of courses they are, shall we say, not rigorous? In my state they don't even submit the undergrad courses that would be eligible for the state-wide transfer program. For us, that means we and several other publics don't accept their College Algebra, or any of the typical calculus sequences.
No first hand knowledge, but I inferred from a colleague who was a fervent SNHU fan that I would feel the same way about them.
So, count me as not a fan, and definitely add include UoPh, Purdue Global, Liberty and Grand Canyon on that list of notes.
I think WGU and SNHU would consider a person like you describe ripe for the picking. Great for their bottom line. If your relative is interested in an education that can really change her life to become a well respected accountant, using the trust fund effectively to that end, other institutions would serve her better.
A local school with an accounting program connected to local business would provide more value, not just te piece of paper.
Another reason the old forum would have been useful.
I think Octo had a great post on the difference between the accounting accreditation programs.
I do not remember at all for certain, but I think ACBSP might have been the less rigorous one, although anyone with background could probably clarify that better than I can.
M.
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 07, 2021, 12:20:57 PM
Anyone familiar with WGU or SNHU, particularly their online business programs?
A distant relative has asked me for insight into Western Governors U and Southern New Hampshire U. Relative is in her early forties, has always worked low wage jobs, recently finished GED. Her goal is an accounting degree, so she eventually can get a job that doesn't require being on her feet all day.
Both schools are ACBSP accredited, so either degree should meet her stated goal. She's beneficiary of a trust that can only be used for tuition, so expense is less important than scheduling. She will continue working to support herself, which makes flexible scheduling essential. WGU and SNHU Online appeal to her because they're 100% online and asynchronous.
They both have slick websites, which makes relative suspicious that they're too good to be true. So, does anyone know anything about either program?
We have had students try to transfer in credit from WGU into my academic unit's program, and we did not accept the credits. I have not had any experience with SNHU.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on June 07, 2021, 02:34:26 PM
Is relative in a state that allows state aid for WGU? WGU can be okay price-wise if that is allowed AND the student is really focused. Their pricing structure looks good, but if you aren't committed the cost rises. From what I've seen of courses they are, shall we say, not rigorous? In my state they don't even submit the undergrad courses that would be eligible for the state-wide transfer program. For us, that means we and several other publics don't accept their College Algebra, or any of the typical calculus sequences.
No first hand knowledge, but I inferred from a colleague who was a fervent SNHU fan that I would feel the same way about them.
So, count me as not a fan, and definitely add include UoPh, Purdue Global, Liberty and Grand Canyon on that list of notes.
Although disingenuous, at least with Purdue Global, a student can
mistakenly lop off the "Global" and say they went to "Purdue."
Just say Michigan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9yqbrHssQQ
QuoteWe have had students try to transfer in credit from WGU into my academic unit's program, and we did not accept the credits.
I thought that accreditation ensured credit transferability. Am I wrong in believing that?
Are there any community colleges offering accounting/business degrees in your relative's region? Night or weekend courses might be available. An associate's degree with transferable credits could get her started on a four-year accounting degree.
Quote from: dismalist on June 07, 2021, 06:19:22 PM
QuoteWe have had students try to transfer in credit from WGU into my academic unit's program, and we did not accept the credits.
I thought that accreditation ensured credit transferability. Am I wrong in believing that?
Yes. Each university, or program within a university, often determines what and how credits earned at other institutions might be transferable. A legacy of local control of education and inconsistent standards.
The friend should check with a four-year public about its undergraduate accounting programs, what community college courses will result in transfer credit, and CPA exam pass rates. Community colleges and four-year publics have a lot of online courses, and many on-campus courses are outside of the 9-5 M-F work week.
Quote from: dismalist on June 07, 2021, 06:19:22 PM
QuoteWe have had students try to transfer in credit from WGU into my academic unit's program, and we did not accept the credits.
I thought that accreditation ensured credit transferability. Am I wrong in believing that?
They transfer to my university as undistributed credits. It's up to the faculty of each degree program (or the faculty's designate) to determine if the WGU credits (or any credits) apply to their academic unit's degree program. The faculty from my academic unit's degree program did not approve the transfer of credits from WGU.
Accreditation ensuring credit transferability to another university is one of the implicit lies of accredited online schools.
The people that I've known who did WGU and were happy with it were people who were already employed in the field, but roadblocked due to lack of a bachelor's degree. For someone in that situation it can be great; one of them finished in 6 months which is what he needed to get promoted in his IT job.
I would say that for someone who needed to learn things from scratch and had recently gotten a GED online, weekend, or evening courses through a community college would probably work better and cost less.
Quote from: mamselle on June 07, 2021, 04:00:12 PM
Another reason the old forum would have been useful.
I think Octo had a great post on the difference between the accounting accreditation programs.
I do not remember at all for certain, but I think ACBSP might have been the less rigorous one, although anyone with background could probably clarify that better than I can.
M.
mamselle: you are correct. ACSB is a more rigorous than ACBSP.
Thanks.
I also just recalled thinking how cute and apposite the SNHU posters were in the subways, awhile ago (at least a year, obviously...).
That in itself made me immediately suspicious...
M.
Thanks, everyone. I knew ACSB was the more difficult accreditation to obtain, but hadn't thought about the transferability of credits. I'm not sure it will matter much, but I'll point it out. I'll also suggest again that she looks at community college programs. I suspect an associate's degree from local CC would suit her just fine.
It seems strange to me, but this particular relative is actively opposed to a career with opportunities for advancement. As she puts it, she doesn't want a job where she has to stress out. Go to work, work steadily for 8 hours, then clock out and forget the job, that's her goal. Her main concern is physical demands of no education required jobs as she moves from early forties to mid sixties.
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 08, 2021, 07:08:09 PM
It seems strange to me, but this particular relative is actively opposed to a career with opportunities for advancement. As she puts it, she doesn't want a job where she has to stress out. Go to work, work steadily for 8 hours, then clock out and forget the job, that's her goal. Her main concern is physical demands of no education required jobs as she moves from early forties to mid sixties.
To be honest, I respect this attitude. I mean, if one is able to find such a job, and survive on its earnings, it makes sense if there are other things outside of work (family, church, sports, painting, writing, music, hobbies, etc.) that gives one's life meaning. In fact, when I was a permanent adjunct, this was just the sort of job I wanted, so I could make my living and then spend what time I had left over teaching a class here and there and reading/writing history. I met many people who are highly educated but take decently-paying but dead-end jobs to do things like play in a band, act, write novels, raise children, etc.
I think that people often put too much of an emphasis on "advancement," when advancement has no inherent purpose if somebody is making enough money and does not need a more interesting job.
Of course, I have no idea if accounting is such a job. The accountants I know tend to work long hours, although I do know several people who work in related jobs who meet this description.
Sorry to get off subject.....
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 08, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
I think that people often put too much of an emphasis on "advancement," when advancement has no inherent purpose if somebody is making enough money and does not need a more interesting job.
This concept of "enough" in behavioral economics is important and often overlooked. The assumption that people want more, regardless of how much they have, is not universally true. I suspect a lot of economists only meet that type of person.
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 08, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 08, 2021, 07:08:09 PM
It seems strange to me, but this particular relative is actively opposed to a career with opportunities for advancement. As she puts it, she doesn't want a job where she has to stress out. Go to work, work steadily for 8 hours, then clock out and forget the job, that's her goal. Her main concern is physical demands of no education required jobs as she moves from early forties to mid sixties.
To be honest, I respect this attitude. I mean, if one is able to find such a job, and survive on its earnings, it makes sense if there are other things outside of work (family, church, sports, painting, writing, music, hobbies, etc.) that gives one's life meaning. In fact, when I was a permanent adjunct, this was just the sort of job I wanted, so I could make my living and then spend what time I had left over teaching a class here and there and reading/writing history. I met many people who are highly educated but take decently-paying but dead-end jobs to do things like play in a band, act, write novels, raise children, etc.
I think that people often put too much of an emphasis on "advancement," when advancement has no inherent purpose if somebody is making enough money and does not need a more interesting job.
Of course, I have no idea if accounting is such a job. The accountants I know tend to work long hours, although I do know several people who work in related jobs who meet this description.
Sorry to get off subject.....
I agree. My step kidlet is "underemployed" but likes 9 - 5 where nothing goes home with her. Her older sister was miserable when in a very high stress position that was extremely lucrative and quite prestigious. When she finally quit for a "lower" position with another company, she has been stunned by "normal" life.
WGU can be a good choice for a very specific degree that earns an entrance credential, especially if you don't really want to keep advancing in a profession. It was in some sense (along with the whole remote Western thing) originally designed to do just that.
Quote from: Hibush on June 09, 2021, 03:22:08 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 08, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
I think that people often put too much of an emphasis on "advancement," when advancement has no inherent purpose if somebody is making enough money and does not need a more interesting job.
This concept of "enough" in behavioral economics is important and often overlooked. The assumption that people want more, regardless of how much they have, is not universally true. I suspect a lot of economists only meet that type of person.
If you've ever read "The Peter Principle", that's one of the important underlying themes; in our society, "promotion" is assumed to be a good thing. However, the wise person decides whether a "promotion" is actually going to be more
satisfying, rather than merely more
lucrative, and potentially turning it down in the latter case. (Although the book says it with a lot more humour.)
As others have noted, I strongly recommend enrolling in the local community college's accounting courses well ahead of signing up at one of the online diploma mill businesses.
And while places like Western Governor's and Southern New Hampshire University are among the "least sheisty" within their operating type of private institution, any generic public community college will still kick their butts in both educational quality and educational reputation for most courses. Proper and full course transfer to 4-year universities are much more likely to be successful. That you will be taught be an actual professor and not left to an automated course in a can is far more likely. That your professor will be available for office hours and personal communications at a community college is more likely.
Another plus for checking out the local community colleges is price. You are not going to find a cheaper price for your education than at a community college. No other academic institutional can even remotely compete with community colleges on that front.
Also, there are alternate options in most states besides the "local" community college if you're looking for fully online course offerings. If your own local community college does not have online-formatted courses for what you want, just browse around your state for another community college until you find one that does. Lots of people attend online courses at community colleges that are not in their own area.
And finally, by no means should one discount the possibility that online courses might be available at public 4-year universities in your state. Unless your state of residence is pretty tiny, I would expect at least some R1's and R2's to have online offerings for many business and accounting type courses. One of the R2's in my area certainly does. The costs of an online course at a 4-year public university will also be significantly cheaper than getting mugged at a private institution.
Quote from: nebo113 on June 09, 2021, 06:47:22 AM
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 08, 2021, 08:24:43 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 08, 2021, 07:08:09 PM
It seems strange to me, but this particular relative is actively opposed to a career with opportunities for advancement. As she puts it, she doesn't want a job where she has to stress out. Go to work, work steadily for 8 hours, then clock out and forget the job, that's her goal. Her main concern is physical demands of no education required jobs as she moves from early forties to mid sixties.
To be honest, I respect this attitude. I mean, if one is able to find such a job, and survive on its earnings, it makes sense if there are other things outside of work (family, church, sports, painting, writing, music, hobbies, etc.) that gives one's life meaning.
Of course, I have no idea if accounting is such a job. The accountants I know tend to work long hours, although I do know several people who work in related jobs who meet this description.
Sorry to get off subject.....
I agree. My step kidlet is "underemployed" but likes 9 - 5 where nothing goes home with her. Her older sister was miserable when in a very high stress position that was extremely lucrative and quite prestigious. When she finally quit for a "lower" position with another company, she has been stunned by "normal" life.
I respect her for making thoughtful decisions about what she needs and what will make her happy, even though her ambitions strike me as strange. I'm fairly certain my ambitions strike her as equally strange, but we've teamed up at family events for years to avoid the relatives who want to advise us on how to achieve 2.3 children and a white picket fence.
She said accounting, but she's more interested in bookkeeping and accounting clerk work than in CPA level work. Careful, methodical work, not strategic thinking.
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 09, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
She said accounting, but she's more interested in bookkeeping and accounting clerk work than in CPA level work. Careful, methodical work, not strategic thinking.
Several of the people I mentioned earlier do, in fact, have jobs as bookkeepers as apposed to CPA. The people I know who are CPAs work really long hours, at least when it is time to file taxes. They also tend to earn a fair bit of money. The bookkeepers work less hours and make less money, leaving time for other pursuits.
I have no idea what type of qualifications you need to be a bookkeeper. Those I know all have advanced degrees, but in subjects that are not accountancy.
Some people just do not have any ambition at all. But many people have ambitions, but in a direction that is not obvious. Instead of getting a promotion and making more money, they may have artistic or literary ambitions.
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 09, 2021, 08:24:19 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 09, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
She said accounting, but she's more interested in bookkeeping and accounting clerk work than in CPA level work. Careful, methodical work, not strategic thinking.
Several of the people I mentioned earlier do, in fact, have jobs as bookkeepers as apposed to CPA. The people I know who are CPAs work really long hours, at least when it is time to file taxes. They also tend to earn a fair bit of money. The bookkeepers work less hours and make less money, leaving time for other pursuits.
I have no idea what type of qualifications you need to be a bookkeeper. Those I know all have advanced degrees, but in subjects that are not accountancy.
Some people just do not have any ambition at all. But many people have ambitions, but in a direction that is not obvious. Instead of getting a promotion and making more money, they may have artistic or literary ambitions.
There are many ambitions besides career ambitions. It was clear from knowing my parents' generation and earlier generations where I live that the most common ambition was a 9-to-5 job that would pay the bills and support the raising of a family. I suspect that most of us are here now because of parents who had such an ambition.
Quote from: jerseyjay on June 09, 2021, 08:24:19 PM
Quote from: Vkw10 on June 09, 2021, 07:25:32 PM
She said accounting, but she's more interested in bookkeeping and accounting clerk work than in CPA level work. Careful, methodical work, not strategic thinking.
Several of the people I mentioned earlier do, in fact, have jobs as bookkeepers as apposed to CPA. The people I know who are CPAs work really long hours, at least when it is time to file taxes. They also tend to earn a fair bit of money. The bookkeepers work less hours and make less money, leaving time for other pursuits.
I have no idea what type of qualifications you need to be a bookkeeper. Those I know all have advanced degrees, but in subjects that are not accountancy.
Some people just do not have any ambition at all. But many people have ambitions, but in a direction that is not obvious. Instead of getting a promotion and making more money, they may have artistic or literary ambitions.
I live in an area where this approach is also prevalent. I find it ironic, if not surprising, that bookkeepers from small business, local non-profits and municipal government are constantly being arrested for embezzlement. You might call that some kind of ambition.
I frankly have a very negative impression of SNHU. There was a forumite on the old boards who adjuncted for them for a while, and their stories were frankly hair-raising to me. They don't have good quality control measures in place. For example, it's the kind of place where instructors don't control the course shells, to the point that they aren't allowed to edit obvious spelling/grammar errors or factual mistakes.
WGU is more of a mixed bag. Most of their programs are crap, but like jimbogumbo said, they do have a few programs that are decent for people already working in their chosen field who just need a bachelor's degree to advance. One of my former neighbors (an RN who already had her associates degree) did their bachelor degree completion program and said it was nothing special, but worked fine for her purposes.
Quote from: pepsi_alum on July 01, 2021, 08:08:59 PM
I frankly have a very negative impression of SNHU. There was a forumite on the old boards who adjuncted for them for a while, and their stories were frankly hair-raising to me. They don't have good quality control measures in place. For example, it's the kind of place where instructors don't control the course shells, to the point that they aren't allowed to edit obvious spelling/grammar errors or factual mistakes.
WGU is more of a mixed bag. Most of their programs are crap, but like jimbogumbo said, they do have a few programs that are decent for people already working in their chosen field who just need a bachelor's degree to advance. One of my former neighbors (an RN who already had her associates degree) did their bachelor degree completion program and said it was nothing special, but worked fine for her purposes.
Thank you, Pepsi_alum. I'm glad you remembered stories from the old boards, because I was hoping to hear from someone who had worked with SNHU or WGU.
The consensus seems to be that a local community college or online public university courses would be best, WGU is probably acceptable, and SNHU is probably not acceptable. I appreciate all the input.
Quote from: pepsi_alum on July 01, 2021, 08:08:59 PM
I frankly have a very negative impression of SNHU. There was a forumite on the old boards who adjuncted for them for a while, and their stories were frankly hair-raising to me. They don't have good quality control measures in place. For example, it's the kind of place where instructors don't control the course shells, to the point that they aren't allowed to edit obvious spelling/grammar errors or factual mistakes.
Wasn't it SNHU where one of their instructors hit the national news after telling a student that Australia wasn't a country and then doubling down on it?