The Fora: A Higher Education Community

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Make-All-Courses-Pass-Fail-Now/248281 (https://www.chronicle.com/article/Make-All-Courses-Pass-Fail-Now/248281).

Indicator of (ir)relevance: the column starts with "I'm a visiting professor of government at Harvard, on sabbatical from my regular teaching job at Middlebury College."

I saw that article soon after learning that students at my university have started a petition to request pass/fail grading for this semester. I don't think our students realize how many professors issue a D- to those who have actually earned an F, even though the evidence is in the CMS.

I like the header: Students aren't having a real college experience. We shouldn't pretend that they are.

How does that translate to pass/fail instead of canceling everything for those who only participated in half a term of instruction?

I am bemused by the saga of the good student being asked to cheat.  Is saying no not an option?  Is this really the first time a good student has been approached to cheat?  If so, then someone was due a rude awakening.

I'm not at all impressed with logic like "But what does excellence actually mean when global public health is under siege? The measures that are necessary to contain the pandemic require the strong to sacrifice their short-term selfish interests for the sake of other humans and the sustainability of our democracy."  A democracy that demands we ignore the distinction between excellence, good enough for this purpose under the given circumstances, and absolute crap isn't being saved.  Instead, that mindset is paving the way for the maximum to be set at "probably good enough for now" for always.  A worthy sacrifice of short-term selfish interest is taking the incomplete/withdraw and resuming/starting over at a later time.  A worthy sacrifice of short-term interest is to accept that this term was a loss, call it off, and do a redo at a later time.  Deeming something good enough when it's really crap is not something worthy of praise or even consideration by people with standards.

"If our purpose in teaching is to engage students in the joy we ourselves have experienced from learning and the life of the mind, removing letter grades from the interaction, especially in dark times, only reinforces our shared commitment. "  That was a distant Nth goal when I was teaching.  Top goals were content and skill mastery for classes that were for majors.  Classes for general education were about becoming conversant with the way one approached solving problems in the field and working together to leverage different expertise to address problems complicated enough to need multiple people. 

I've almost never experienced "joy..from learning and the life of the mind" in a classroom setting.  I'm a much bigger fan of the immense satisfaction in tackling something hard enough that tears and shouting from the frustration are part of the process and then eventually something works or at least comes together days/weeks/months later.  There is enormous satisfaction in having something become clear after weeks/months of wrestling with the problem, reading everything one can on the problem, and then bringing it all together in a whole with a handful of "future work/open questions" as the current snapshot of knowledge. 

A lively discussion can be a kind of joy, but I haven't had that happen too much in the formal classroom, either.  Project discussions in which all the team members are hugely invested in joint success often bring a kind of joy in the moment, but not gen ed classes with people who didn't do the reading, have seldom done the reading, and don't want to be there anyway.

Quote from: polly_mer on March 23, 2020, 08:51:16 AM

I'm not at all impressed with logic like "But what does excellence actually mean when global public health is under siege? The measures that are necessary to contain the pandemic require the strong to sacrifice their short-term selfish interests for the sake of other humans and the sustainability of our democracy." A democracy that demands we ignore the distinction between excellence, good enough for this purpose under the given circumstances, and absolute crap isn't being saved.  Instead, that mindset is paving the way for the maximum to be set at "probably good enough for now" for always.  A worthy sacrifice of short-term selfish interest is taking the incomplete/withdraw and resuming/starting over at a later time.  A worthy sacrifice of short-term interest is to accept that this term was a loss, call it off, and do a redo at a later time.  Deeming something good enough when it's really crap is not something worthy of praise or even consideration by people with standards.

Yes, that quotation lept out at me as well. (Among other things, it ignores the distinction between grading schemes where 20% of the grade was established "before" and ones where the grade was 80% established before.)

And since when is getting a representative grade "short-term selfish interest"?

I'm not at all opposed to shifting to pass/fail. But as far as I'm concerned, that's a directive that has to come from the top. If I shift on my own, I'm sticking my neck very, very far out. My institution has been very persnickety about getting any and all changes to our courses approved by the faculty senate (because they're apparently worried a student might complain/sue).

In the meantime, I've done the least disruptive thing possible: everything stays the same but lectures are recorded, the exam is given through the LMS, and presentations are submitted but not presented.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
And since when is getting a representative grade "short-term selfish interest"?

When it means that other people who were on their way to a solid B+ (A- when they cram for that final exam and hand in a fabulous end-of-term paper) are now looking at a C- at best due to their life blowing up and transitioning to online.

Don't you know that one way to fix the unfairness of normal life is to hobble the top?  Harrison Bergeron and Brave New World remain as relevant today as when they were written.

Quote from: polly_mer on March 23, 2020, 09:40:19 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
And since when is getting a representative grade "short-term selfish interest"?

When it means that other people who were on their way to dreaming of a solid B+ (A- when they cram for that final exam and hand in a fabulous end-of-term paper) are now looking at a C- at best due to their life blowing up and transitioning to online.

Don't you know that one way to fix the unfairness of normal life is to hobble the top?  Harrison Bergeron and Brave New World remain as relevant today as when they were written.

Fixed that.

The original posting I saw was that the Harvard equivalent of "elective" core courses were being made pass/fail, not that everything was.

Has that changed?

Or are students just hearing what they want to hear?

M.

Quote from: mamselle on March 23, 2020, 09:46:24 AM
The original posting I saw was that the Harvard equivalent of "elective" core courses were being made pass/fail, not that everything was.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Quote from: polly_mer on March 23, 2020, 08:51:16 AM
I like the header: Students aren't having a real college experience. We shouldn't pretend that they are.

well, they're not having an equal experience if some one them get the online course at the same time that they were before spring break, while others, because of the time zone they're in, have to get up and take it at 4:00 in the morning. Or look at a recording.

The question to ask yourself is whether the person would have held a different position (i.e. would have been opposed to P/F grading; or really, passing everyone) in the absence of a pandemic. It's remarkable how many op-eds (and policy proposals) are "here's why what I've always demanded is especially needed during a pandemic!" Never let a crisis go to waste. But they're just as (un)persuasive as they were before.

There are lots of policies that are helpful now that would probably always have been appropriate. I never understood severe late penalties for example. But the reasoning for why we should have them now aren't at all different than from why we should have them when there's no pandemic going on. Maybe it's now just easier for instructors to empathize with the students?

We had a system in which students could "insure" a small number of grades by converting a grade of C- or above to a pass, but only for courses that weren't in the their majors or minors. We've relaxed that this semester so they can do so far all classes if they choose and it won't count against their max for their college career. That seems like a fair compromise under the circumstances-- they are certainly not getting the same quality of instruction, and they are under a lot of stress.

Our uni just issued the edict that students may demand a P/NP option on any class that does not count toward a major or minor.

I don't quite understand why----I don't see how on-line instruction will be any harder or, including drive-time, walk-time, and class-time, any more time consuming than traditional instruction.

I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

Quote from: downer on March 23, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

THAT is the big advantage to faculty; grading mostly disappears or requres no more than a cursory look at anything.

Quote from: Wahoo Redux on March 23, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
Our uni just issued the edict that students may demand a P/NP option on any class that does not count toward a major or minor.

I don't quite understand why----I don't see how on-line instruction will be any harder or, including drive-time, walk-time, and class-time, any more time consuming than traditional instruction.

Theoretically, if a course is designed correctly, it shouldn't be.

However, at my school, this is the reality:
-Courses are not designed correctly, because professors are doing it on the fly, some with no online teaching experience;
-Students do not have computers or reliable internet;
-Students have to take care of children who are home from school;
-Students are working long hours if they work in certain jobs (e.g., Amazon or nursing);
-Students are now unemployed if they work in certain jobs (e.g., substitute teachers or waiters);
-Students do not have access to libraries or archives making it hard to write term papers;
-Students need to worry about elderly parents with health issues.

I do not think most of this applies to Harvard students, but it does apply to many of my students at an open-admissions public university in an area that currently is essentially under quarantine. 

This is not taking into account the mental strain of being stuck in one's apartment (or one's family home) indefinitely with what some have estimated is a 40-80% chance of getting a disease that may prove fatal. [I am aware that it is unlikely that most of our students will die from this disease, although I have several students with various "underlying health issues", and many live with people who fall into this category. But in any case, the news about the pandemic is not conducive to relaxation.]

Interesting.

We are a primarily commuter, open-admissions school, so the situation above is almost exactly the situation where we are.

Our uni has offered no rationale.  It might actually be to make the lives of the professors easier too.

If one took the arguments in the article seriously, one would be forced to conclude that during the health emergency all courses should be graded Pass.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: downer on March 23, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

THAT is the big advantage to faculty; grading mostly disappears or requres no more than a cursory look at anything.

Too negative. I wouldn't  consider it an advantage to me to be given the option to neglect to give needed feedback. Things go better when the student knows where he stands. But I would argue that in some cases, where the lab section is overpopulated, needed equipment is missing, the course has been moved online abruptly or other major compromises, the pass/fail grading system is more plausible because an 'A' through 'F' scale is not authentic or borders on arbitrary 'calculation.'

Quote from: jerseyjay on March 23, 2020, 11:27:12 AM

However, at my school, this is the reality:
[Yes.  See list above.]

This is not taking into account the mental strain of....

+1  These are no ordinary times.  Many are under unprecedented mental, physical, and economic stress.  Giving students the option of Pass/Fail makes sense to me, a reasonable compromise.

Of course, the CHE is on our shitlist now. Running articles sympathetic to adjuncts and other lunacy.

I have a question.

Can anyone give a good reason why P/F would be better than assigning grades as normal, but putting a note on the transcript to identify this as being the "covid term", and possibly not having it included in GPA calculations?

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 03:56:54 PM
Can anyone give a good reason why P/F would be better than assigning grades as normal, but putting a note on the transcript to identify this as being the "covid term", and possibly not having it included in GPA calculations?

One of the key reasons for moving to Credit/No Credit (or whatever) is because some students will do worse than other students this semester for reasons completely unrelated to their effort or ability. Some students might go home to their parents who have a solid income, and have access to a desk, privacy, time, and the bandwidth to complete their assignments as needed. Others will have parents who've been laid off and therefore need to pick up more work themselves, or have a partner who becomes ill and needs tending, or have children they're supposed to home school, or who don't have good internet for reasons ranging from from a income to unlucky geography.

So how are we to interpret a transcript that has an asterisk by that C or that A reminding us of the COVID term? Did the student receive an A because they did excellent work? Or because they had good bandwidth? Did the student who received a C simply not perform in class? Or did they need to spend time and mental energy tending to a dying grandfather struck down by a terrible disease?

I just don't see how we can ignore that these realities really will impact student performance, and hence that traditional grading is going to reflect all kinds of things besides performance in (hastily prepared online) class.

Quote from: Chairman X on March 23, 2020, 06:24:01 PM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 03:56:54 PM
Can anyone give a good reason why P/F would be better than assigning grades as normal, but putting a note on the transcript to identify this as being the "covid term", and possibly not having it included in GPA calculations?

One of the key reasons for moving to Credit/No Credit (or whatever) is because some students will do worse than other students this semester for reasons completely unrelated to their effort or ability. Some students might go home to their parents who have a solid income, and have access to a desk, privacy, time, and the bandwidth to complete their assignments as needed. Others will have parents who've been laid off and therefore need to pick up more work themselves, or have a partner who becomes ill and needs tending, or have children they're supposed to home school, or who don't have good internet for reasons ranging from from a income to unlucky geography.

So how are we to interpret a transcript that has an asterisk by that C or that A reminding us of the COVID term? Did the student receive an A because they did excellent work? Or because they had good bandwidth? Did the student who received a C simply not perform in class? Or did they need to spend time and mental energy tending to a dying grandfather struck down by a terrible disease?

I just don't see how we can ignore that these realities really will impact student performance, and hence that traditional grading is going to reflect all kinds of things besides performance in (hastily prepared online) class.

Sure, but then why Fail or No Credit at all?

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: downer on March 23, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

THAT is the big advantage to faculty; grading mostly disappears or requres no more than a cursory look at anything.

I wish!  Unfortunately we don't know (unless students share with us) who is P/F and who is A-F.  And now my school has decided that students can even switch to P/F after they see their grades the end of this semester.

Quote from: Liquidambar on March 23, 2020, 08:17:18 PM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: downer on March 23, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

THAT is the big advantage to faculty; grading mostly disappears or requres no more than a cursory look at anything.

I wish!  Unfortunately we don't know (unless students share with us) who is P/F and who is A-F.  And now my school has decided that students can even switch to P/F after they see their grades the end of this semester.

When I am entering final grades, those students who are P/F have only those options pop up in the online submission form. I may be tempted to leave a bunch of grading undone until that form is available.

I'm with JerseyJay.

Quote from: downer on March 24, 2020, 04:07:51 AM

Quote from: Liquidambar on March 23, 2020, 08:17:18 PM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 23, 2020, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: downer on March 23, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
I would like to know which students are taking the class P/F before I read their work, so I know how much effort to put into reading it.

THAT is the big advantage to faculty; grading mostly disappears or requres no more than a cursory look at anything.

I wish!  Unfortunately we don't know (unless students share with us) who is P/F and who is A-F.  And now my school has decided that students can even switch to P/F after they see their grades the end of this semester.

When I am entering final grades, those students who are P/F have only those options pop up in the online submission form. I may be tempted to leave a bunch of grading undone until that form is available.

Absolutely. Letting students choose after the fact is a ridiculous policy. By allowing students to choose at the end, it even rewards students who've blown things off all term before the virus. And if the goal was to reduce students' stress, that would have been most valuable before the final exam by lowering the stakes.

Quote from: dismalist on March 23, 2020, 12:24:01 PM
If one took the arguments in the article seriously, one would be forced to conclude that during the health emergency all courses should be graded Pass.

Some of our students actually did mount a petition for that. I don't think it'll get far.

But they do have the option to select pass/fail. Not at Harvard, but another Ivy, and I know some of our students do face many of the issues described by jerseyjay. We tried to address some of the worst problems by allowing students whose home situation was particularly dire to remain here. Fewer students than expected took advantage of that offer, but I suspect some of them are unknowingly walking into worse situations for academic performance than they think. I believe many of them haven't thought about bandwidth limitations, family pressure to take care of younger siblings who are suddenly home all the time, and other difficult elements of trying to do academic work without the support system they're used to. Plus it's definitely the case that many of my colleagues are on their way to being absolutely abysmal online instructors.

So I'll understand if students take the option, though I did counsel students looking at grad school or trying to raise their GPAs not to do it.

Quote from: HomunculusParty on March 24, 2020, 05:45:07 AM

Quote from: dismalist on March 23, 2020, 12:24:01 PM
If one took the arguments in the article seriously, one would be forced to conclude that during the health emergency all courses should be graded Pass.

Some of our students actually did mount a petition for that. I don't think it'll get far.

Someone needs to compassionately explain to them that doing so would mean that future employers (grad schools, etc.) would, in that case, have to consider any record of courses "taken" under that rule essentially count for nothing, since the person who was going to fail anyway gets the same "pass" as the person who aced everything despite the current situation.

The only reason some universities are adopting pass/fail grading is to avoid being inundated with end-of-semester grade appeals, possible litigation, and bad publicity,

Quote from: spork on March 24, 2020, 06:13:09 AM
The only reason some universities are adopting pass/fail grading is to avoid being inundated with end-of-semester grade appeals, possible litigation, and bad publicity,

That's a little cynical. Those are probably motivations. But it could also be motivated by compassion for students having a difficult time and genuine doubt about the quality of instruction being provided by a lot of profs who are completely unprepared to transition to online teaching.

Quote from: downer on March 24, 2020, 06:18:38 AM

Quote from: spork on March 24, 2020, 06:13:09 AM
The only reason some universities are adopting pass/fail grading is to avoid being inundated with end-of-semester grade appeals, possible litigation, and bad publicity,

That's a little cynical. Those are probably motivations. But it could also be motivated by compassion for students having a difficult time and genuine doubt about the quality of instruction being provided by a lot of profs who are completely unprepared to transition to online teaching.

So why not instead give students a "before covid" grade, along with an indication of what percentage of the original course grade that was based on.

So:

• A; 50 means the student had an A average and 50% of the grade had been determined already.
• C; 30 means the student had a C average and 30% of the grade had been determined already.

This would certianly be meaningful for cases where the percentage is high; "A; 80" is vastly different than "D; 80" and those numbers are NOT results of covid. On the other hand "D; 20" isn't something to get too worked up about.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 06:29:39 AM

Quote from: downer on March 24, 2020, 06:18:38 AM

Quote from: spork on March 24, 2020, 06:13:09 AM
The only reason some universities are adopting pass/fail grading is to avoid being inundated with end-of-semester grade appeals, possible litigation, and bad publicity,

That's a little cynical. Those are probably motivations. But it could also be motivated by compassion for students having a difficult time and genuine doubt about the quality of instruction being provided by a lot of profs who are completely unprepared to transition to online teaching.

So why not instead give students a "before covid" grade, along with an indication of what percentage of the original course grade that was based on.

So:

• A; 50 means the student had an A average and 50% of the grade had been determined already.
• C; 30 means the student had a C average and 30% of the grade had been determined already.

This would certianly be meaningful for cases where the percentage is high; "A; 80" is vastly different than "D; 80" and those numbers are NOT results of covid. On the other hand "D; 20" isn't something to get too worked up about.

Because transcripts aren't set up to take entries like this, there would be no way to figure them fairly into GPAs, and no one looking at those transcripts afterward would have any idea how to interpret them if everyone comes up with their own weird annotations. In contrast, pass/fail is already a thing transcripts can include, is already a standard practice at most institutions that is just getting applied to more courses, and is readily interpreted by people looking at those transcripts later. I don't think people are going to forget what was going on this semester-- they will know why there are a lot more P/F grades.

We don't need to make this so complicated, and I'm really not sure why folks like you are so insistent on not making accommodations right now-- dig deep and see if you can locate your misplaced compassion.

Quote from: downer on March 24, 2020, 06:18:38 AM

Quote from: spork on March 24, 2020, 06:13:09 AM
The only reason some universities are adopting pass/fail grading is to avoid being inundated with end-of-semester grade appeals, possible litigation, and bad publicity,

That's a little cynical. Those are probably motivations. But it could also be motivated by compassion for students having a difficult time and genuine doubt about the quality of instruction being provided by a lot of profs who are completely unprepared to transition to online teaching.

Being inundated with grade appeals? Even with my attitude, I wouldn't wish that on any administrator. We're in crisis management mode. Adjustments are warranted.
Besides people being unprepared to transition online, some types of courses and assignments just won't work when delivered online.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 06:29:39 AM

So why not instead give students a "before covid" grade, along with an indication of what percentage of the original course grade that was based on.

So:

• A; 50 means the student had an A average and 50% of the grade had been determined already.
• C; 30 means the student had a C average and 30% of the grade had been determined already.

This would certianly be meaningful for cases where the percentage is high; "A; 80" is vastly different than "D; 80" and those numbers are NOT results of covid. On the other hand "D; 20" isn't something to get too worked up about.

Because it's more work for the professor, and most of us adjuncts in the USA don't make good money like you and your colleagues do.

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 06:46:35 AM

We don't need to make this so complicated, and I'm really not sure why folks like you are so insistent on not making accommodations right now-- dig deep and see if you can locate your misplaced compassion.

FWIW, in my courses students were done the "regular" part of the course, and were exclusively working on projects. So I reduced the weight (and requirements) of the project to fit with what was already accomplished. In other words, my grades are based on what they got done before things blew up.  So the grades actually reflect performance, but don't include problems after covid.

I think there are lots of possible "compassionate" responses that don't necessarily obliterate all indications of how people were performing before this.

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 06:46:35 AM

We don't need to make this so complicated, and I'm really not sure why folks like you are so insistent on not making accommodations right now-- dig deep and see if you can locate your misplaced compassion.

Any solution Marshwiggle suggest is likely to complicated. He's more comfortable that way. It's a talent, and we don't all have it.

Quote from: mahagonny on March 24, 2020, 07:12:00 AM

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 06:46:35 AM

We don't need to make this so complicated, and I'm really not sure why folks like you are so insistent on not making accommodations right now-- dig deep and see if you can locate your misplaced compassion.

Any solution Marshwiggle suggest is likely to be complicated. He's more comfortable that way. It's a talent, and we don't all have it.

All kinds of solutions to the current situation regarding just about every aspect of life now are complicated. But these "complications" are the result of trying to make the best of an unprecedented situation. Going to the grocery store has become much more complicated.  I suppose the military could start dropping off 100 lb bags of dried rice and beans at every house and say "Grocery stores are now closed; call us when you run out and we'll bring more." That would arguably be "simpler" but not necessarily any great improvement over the "complicated" situation, and much less desirable as well.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to give students the choice, but to require they make the choice for all classes, rather than individually?

(1) If you're a poor student, you switch to P/F and your GPA doesn't suffer -- but it also doesn't improve. The choice doesn't really matter.
(2) If you're a great student whose performance doesn't suffer as a consequence of the outbreak, you stick with original grading. No harm in declining the option.
(3) If you're a great student, but your performance is hurt by the outbreak, you switch to P/F -- ostensibly, the policy is aimed to help this type of student. Looking at GPA after graduation is still meaningful.
(4) Students in the middle will largely not see much of a difference from the decision, since P/F protects them from a falling GPA, but also doesn't give them the opportunity to raise their GPA.

Mandating P/F doesn't change the choice for 1 and 3, but makes (2) and part of group (4) worse off. (2) can no longer signal they worked through it and students in (4) who were doing very well up to this point in the semester won't be able to improve their GPA.

Edit: and requiring the same choice for all classes means students can't selectively drop the ones they're not doing as well in. That would inflate GPAs for the semester.

Quote from: pigou on March 24, 2020, 07:27:38 AM
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give students the choice, but to require they make the choice for all classes, rather than individually?

(1) If you're a poor student, you switch to P/F and your GPA doesn't suffer -- but it also doesn't improve. The choice doesn't really matter.
(2) If you're a great student whose performance doesn't suffer as a consequence of the outbreak, you stick with original grading. No harm in declining the option.
(3) If you're a great student, but your performance is hurt by the outbreak, you switch to P/F -- ostensibly, the policy is aimed to help this type of student. Looking at GPA after graduation is still meaningful.
(4) Students in the middle will largely not see much of a difference from the decision, since P/F protects them from a falling GPA, but also doesn't give them the opportunity to raise their GPA.

Mandating P/F doesn't change the choice for 1 and 3, but makes (2) and part of group (4) worse off. (2) can no longer signal they worked through it and students in (4) who were doing very well up to this point in the semester won't be able to improve their GPA.

Edit: and requiring the same choice for all classes means students can't selectively drop the ones they're not doing as well in. That would inflate GPAs for the semester.

That's a great idea. Presumably the students struggling because of the covid disruptions would be happy with it since all of their courses would be affected.  It's hard to rationally argue that all of the stress, decreased internet bandwidth, extra family resposibilities, etc. only affected certain courses.

The University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now on the verge of allowing students to request "Credit/No Credit" grading.  Other universities in the state are also reportedly considering such a change.


https://www.nwaonline.com/news/2020/mar/24/ualr-grading-option-backed-20200324/?news-arkansas



I suspect that this will be like everything else we've seen in recent weeks--once the word is out that a few schools are doing it, things will snowball until virtually every school in the country has fallen into line.

Quote from: pigou on March 24, 2020, 07:27:38 AM
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give students the choice, but to require they make the choice for all classes, rather than individually?

(1) If you're a poor student, you switch to P/F and your GPA doesn't suffer -- but it also doesn't improve. The choice doesn't really matter.
(2) If you're a great student whose performance doesn't suffer as a consequence of the outbreak, you stick with original grading. No harm in declining the option.
(3) If you're a great student, but your performance is hurt by the outbreak, you switch to P/F -- ostensibly, the policy is aimed to help this type of student. Looking at GPA after graduation is still meaningful.
(4) Students in the middle will largely not see much of a difference from the decision, since P/F protects them from a falling GPA, but also doesn't give them the opportunity to raise their GPA.

Mandating P/F doesn't change the choice for 1 and 3, but makes (2) and part of group (4) worse off. (2) can no longer signal they worked through it and students in (4) who were doing very well up to this point in the semester won't be able to improve their GPA.

Edit: and requiring the same choice for all classes means students can't selectively drop the ones they're not doing as well in. That would inflate GPAs for the semester.

This assumes all the problems are on the student end. I think there are dramatic differences in how well faculty are doing in transitioning classes online (and just by their nature some are easier to transition online than others), so not all classes will be equally affected.

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 10:19:00 AM

Quote from: pigou on March 24, 2020, 07:27:38 AM
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give students the choice, but to require they make the choice for all classes, rather than individually?

(1) If you're a poor student, you switch to P/F and your GPA doesn't suffer -- but it also doesn't improve. The choice doesn't really matter.
(2) If you're a great student whose performance doesn't suffer as a consequence of the outbreak, you stick with original grading. No harm in declining the option.
(3) If you're a great student, but your performance is hurt by the outbreak, you switch to P/F -- ostensibly, the policy is aimed to help this type of student. Looking at GPA after graduation is still meaningful.
(4) Students in the middle will largely not see much of a difference from the decision, since P/F protects them from a falling GPA, but also doesn't give them the opportunity to raise their GPA.

Mandating P/F doesn't change the choice for 1 and 3, but makes (2) and part of group (4) worse off. (2) can no longer signal they worked through it and students in (4) who were doing very well up to this point in the semester won't be able to improve their GPA.

Edit: and requiring the same choice for all classes means students can't selectively drop the ones they're not doing as well in. That would inflate GPAs for the semester.

This assumes all the problems are on the student end. I think there are dramatic differences in how well faculty are doing in transitioning classes online (and just by their nature some are easier to transition online than others), so not all classes will be equally affected.

One other measure that has been adopted many places, including here, is to extend the drop deadline. After even a week of each course's transition to online students shoiuld be able to tell which is OK and which is a total mess so they can drop. That still gives them agency.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 10:26:52 AM

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 10:19:00 AM

Quote from: pigou on March 24, 2020, 07:27:38 AM
Wouldn't it be reasonable to give students the choice, but to require they make the choice for all classes, rather than individually?

(1) If you're a poor student, you switch to P/F and your GPA doesn't suffer -- but it also doesn't improve. The choice doesn't really matter.
(2) If you're a great student whose performance doesn't suffer as a consequence of the outbreak, you stick with original grading. No harm in declining the option.
(3) If you're a great student, but your performance is hurt by the outbreak, you switch to P/F -- ostensibly, the policy is aimed to help this type of student. Looking at GPA after graduation is still meaningful.
(4) Students in the middle will largely not see much of a difference from the decision, since P/F protects them from a falling GPA, but also doesn't give them the opportunity to raise their GPA.

Mandating P/F doesn't change the choice for 1 and 3, but makes (2) and part of group (4) worse off. (2) can no longer signal they worked through it and students in (4) who were doing very well up to this point in the semester won't be able to improve their GPA.

Edit: and requiring the same choice for all classes means students can't selectively drop the ones they're not doing as well in. That would inflate GPAs for the semester.

This assumes all the problems are on the student end. I think there are dramatic differences in how well faculty are doing in transitioning classes online (and just by their nature some are easier to transition online than others), so not all classes will be equally affected.

One other measure that has been adopted many places, including here, is to extend the drop deadline. After even a week of each course's transition to online students shoiuld be able to tell which is OK and which is a total mess so they can drop. That still gives them agency.

They should not have to drop late in the semester because their class is now a total mess. That could delay graduation, mess up all their schedules going forward, etc.

Why are you so intent on punishing your students in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis?

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 10:29:24 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 10:26:52 AM


One other measure that has been adopted many places, including here, is to extend the drop deadline. After even a week of each course's transition to online students shoiuld be able to tell which is OK and which is a total mess so they can drop. That still gives them agency.

They should not have to drop late in the semester because their class is now a total mess. That could delay graduation, mess up all their schedules going forward, etc.

Why are you so intent on punishing your students in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" health care workers in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by making them treat people?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" people in entertainment and hospitality industries in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by shuttering their businesses?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" working parents with small children in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by closing schools and daycares?

What we are doing,  in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis, is trying to figure out how to make the best of it. Part of the responsibility of educational institutions is to assess students' knowledge in some credible way. While the covid epidemic undoubtedly has a negative impact on students' education, that doesn't absolve institutions of the responsibility to attempt fair assessment. "Everyone gets an A!" is not a fair assessment. Neither is "Everyone gets an F!" The more nuance that can be preserved the better.  And by giving students choices with real consequences, it helps to prepare them for the world which (as is now readily apparent) includes circumstances that we were not prepared for but whose consequences we must deal with.

Saying we will give people choices is showing compassion; pretending that this will have no measurable impact on their academic career is dishonest and infantalizing.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 10:57:15 AM

Quote from: Puget on March 24, 2020, 10:29:24 AM

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 10:26:52 AM


One other measure that has been adopted many places, including here, is to extend the drop deadline. After even a week of each course's transition to online students shoiuld be able to tell which is OK and which is a total mess so they can drop. That still gives them agency.

They should not have to drop late in the semester because their class is now a total mess. That could delay graduation, mess up all their schedules going forward, etc.

Why are you so intent on punishing your students in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" health care workers in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by making them treat people?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" people in entertainment and hospitality industries in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by shuttering their businesses?

Are we as a society intent on "punishing" working parents with small children in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis by closing schools and daycares?

What we are doing,  in the middle of an unprecedented global crisis, is trying to figure out how to make the best of it. Part of the responsibility of educational institutions is to assess students' knowledge in some credible way. While the covid epidemic undoubtedly has a negative impact on students' education, that doesn't absolve institutions of the responsibility to attempt fair assessment. "Everyone gets an A!" is not a fair assessment. Neither is "Everyone gets an F!" The more nuance that can be preserved the better.  And by giving students choices with real consequences, it helps to prepare them for the world which (as is now readily apparent) includes circumstances that we were not prepared for but whose consequences we must deal with.

Saying we will give people choices is showing compassion; pretending that this will have no measurable impact on their academic career is dishonest and infantalizing.

Those parallels are completely false. Those are sacrifices we are asking people to make to save lives. Denying your students the option of taking a class P/F is not saving anyone's life. Having some P/F grades on their transcript is not ruining anyone's life. I truly don't understand your issue here, but I'm out--no point in continuing this conversation.

• Supposedly in some fields, given state licensing requirements, pass/fail is not an option, because pass/fail is, to borrow the words above, not regarded as a credible way of assessing a student's academic performance. Supposedly for some universities/programs, pass/fail also renders course credits ineligible for transfer. While these are institutional policies that can be changed, the questions of "how quickly?" and "what effects will the policy change have?" haven't been answered yet.
• At a place like Harvard, the average GPA is in the B+/A- range. Students will clamor for a switch to pass/fail if it doesn't affect their GPA. If the university says "A grade of Pass will function numerically as a C and will be incorporated into your GPA accordingly" then those who were in favor of pass/fail will switch positions and oppose it.

Quote from: apl68 on March 24, 2020, 09:41:00 AM
The University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now on the verge of allowing students to request "Credit/No Credit" grading.  Other universities in the state are also reportedly considering such a change.
[...]
I suspect that this will be like everything else we've seen in recent weeks--once the word is out that a few schools are doing it, things will snowball until virtually every school in the country has fallen into line.

Just so: There are scores of institutions that already have moved to C/NC or the equivalent. If this were to become an industry standard -- as I think it should -- then students would end up on equal footing. Students would still have 7 other semesters at minimum of grades that establishes their records. And strong students applying to jobs or graduate school will still have access to recommendations from professors who can give qualitative evaluations of their work.

Quote from: Chairman X on March 24, 2020, 01:05:58 PM

Quote from: apl68 on March 24, 2020, 09:41:00 AM
The University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now on the verge of allowing students to request "Credit/No Credit" grading.  Other universities in the state are also reportedly considering such a change.
[...]
I suspect that this will be like everything else we've seen in recent weeks--once the word is out that a few schools are doing it, things will snowball until virtually every school in the country has fallen into line.

Just so: There are scores of institutions that already have moved to C/NC or the equivalent. If this were to become an industry standard -- as I think it should -- then students would end up on equal footing. Students would still have 7 other semesters at minimum of grades that establishes their records. And strong students applying to jobs or graduate school will still have access to recommendations from professors who can give qualitative evaluations of their work.

Only if this is for a single semester. If a vaccine takes a year to 18 months to develop, as predicted, this could affect 3 or 4 terms for some students. The move to completely online is not likely to be seamless in subsequent terms, so all of the concerns about effects on grades will still potentially apply, if possibly to a lesser extent.

It's official: my university announced that all students can "petition" to have their courses this semester graded as P/F. It's not really a petition, because if they want it, it happens.

Quote from: spork on March 25, 2020, 04:58:18 AM
It's official: my university announced that all students can "petition" to have their courses this semester graded as P/F. It's not really a petition, because if they want it, it happens.

Same here. But what a travesty. We, the faculty, were not consulted. Where is faculty governance in all of this?

Oh, wait a minute. I almost forgot. I'm not faculty. I'm just a guy who teaches college students for a living...

Oh, wait a minute. I was in favor of pass/fail.

Give me instructions. Let me follow them. Blame them for the new policy.

The policy is pending approval, but CUNY is also moving to allow students to opt for Credit/No Credit for a time period after final grades are posted. (Exception exists for School of Law and School of Medicine to develop their own policies.)

https://www.cuny.edu/cuny-continuity/cuny-continuity-for-students/#grade-policy

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 24, 2020, 01:13:58 PM

Quote from: Chairman X on March 24, 2020, 01:05:58 PM

Quote from: apl68 on March 24, 2020, 09:41:00 AM
The University of Arkansas at Little Rock is now on the verge of allowing students to request "Credit/No Credit" grading.  Other universities in the state are also reportedly considering such a change.
[...]
I suspect that this will be like everything else we've seen in recent weeks--once the word is out that a few schools are doing it, things will snowball until virtually every school in the country has fallen into line.

Just so: There are scores of institutions that already have moved to C/NC or the equivalent. If this were to become an industry standard -- as I think it should -- then students would end up on equal footing. Students would still have 7 other semesters at minimum of grades that establishes their records. And strong students applying to jobs or graduate school will still have access to recommendations from professors who can give qualitative evaluations of their work.

Only if this is for a single semester. If a vaccine takes a year to 18 months to develop, as predicted, this could affect 3 or 4 terms for some students. The move to completely online is not likely to be seamless in subsequent terms, so all of the concerns about effects on grades will still potentially apply, if possibly to a lesser extent.

I've seen people say this, and while I defer to actual experts, from everything I understand we should expect to be back teaching in classrooms by the fall semester. I'll spare you the secondhand epidemiology, but it isn't just going to be spreading uncontrolled until we have a vaccine.

And also really guys? You're actually bothered by the idea that students can choose to take pass/fail this semester. It doesn't keep anyone from taking their A that they earned, it just allows students who have had a tough semester during an @#$*$$$ pandemic to not be penalized for it as long as they can fulfill the basic course requirements and pass. Do you really not have anything better to do right now than bloviate about a decline in academic standards?

You Go Caracal!

I didn't see it above; has it already been mentioned that Harvard has gone to "Emergency Satisfactory" and "Emergency Unsatisfactory" grades for all classes?

That preserves context while releasing the pressure valve to something like humane.

M.

In all of these discussions there's an implicit assumption that lots of students are overwhelmed by this. Does anyone know of any actual surveys to determine how many students are actually very worried about these disruptions?

deleted.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 27, 2020, 05:20:08 PM
In all of these discussions there's an implicit assumption that lots of students are overwhelmed by this. Does anyone know of any actual surveys to determine how many students are actually very worried about these disruptions?

I haven't looked into as yet. Nor have I ever seen any compilation of data proving that dogs like meat.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 27, 2020, 05:20:08 PM
In all of these discussions there's an implicit assumption that lots of students are overwhelmed by this. Does anyone know of any actual surveys to determine how many students are actually very worried about these disruptions?

Our university announced the cancellation of F2F classes while students were on Spring Break. Students were urged to bring everything with them in case this happened (they didn't) and it's caused quite a stir. Students living in the dorm were banned from returning, while students living in Greek housing (which is on campus) were allowed to return.

Our university required us to poll students, asking them if a) they had internet access b) access to their university emails and/or LMS c) had their textbooks d) were able to complete the course in an online format. 49% of my students responded "Yes" they could access the course, but about 10% said they were worried about being able to complete the assignments. None who responded said they lacked resources.

One of my departmental colleagues had 1% of his students respond.

I do not know what the university will do with this information. Given the reaction to this entire event, I doubt that students who are deemed "non-responsive" will receive any sort of a break from the admins.

Clemson has announced that instructors can exempt all students from final exams.

My university has extended the deadline for course withdrawal to May, as well as the deadline by which students have to decide whether to have their courses graded as P/F. Basically this means no student needs to fail a course this semester.

Quote from: spork on March 28, 2020, 08:41:58 AM
Clemson has announced that instructors can exempt all students from final exams.

My university has extended the deadline for course withdrawal to May, as well as the deadline by which students have to decide whether to have their courses graded as P/F. Basically this means no student needs to fail a course this semester.

Same here. From my perspective as an adjunct whose bread on the table depends on student evaluations, in a department with some uncommunicative senior faculty and a rocky relationship between faculty union and admin, I don't mind. I think they taking us out of harm's way a bit. Not that I think they would do it for that reason. It's a university-wide decision.

Quote from: mahagonny on March 28, 2020, 08:48:35 AM

Quote from: spork on March 28, 2020, 08:41:58 AM
Clemson has announced that instructors can exempt all students from final exams.

My university has extended the deadline for course withdrawal to May, as well as the deadline by which students have to decide whether to have their courses graded as P/F. Basically this means no student needs to fail a course this semester.

Same here. From my perspective as an adjunct whose bread on the table depends on student evaluations, in a department with some uncommunicative senior faculty and a rocky relationship between faculty union and admin, I don't mind. I think they taking us out of harm's way a bit. Not that I think they would do it for that reason. It's a university-wide decision.

Ditto. Really the parallel to giving students a pass/fail option for faculty is that we just shouldn't do student evals this semester. In the same way that students shouldn't be punished for dramatically changed classes and circumstances, it isn't really fair to judge faculty based on things out of our control. There are people who don't have young kids and who channel anxiety into work who find themselves with a lot of time and are putting that into teaching right now. That's great, of course, but some of us suddenly don't have daycare and have toddlers around all the time. Other people get distracted by stress and anxiety and are having a hard time focusing. Some people have classes that can be put online easily, others have classes that are really hard to do that with. Obviously like the students we still need to do our job and meet minimum standards, but it just isn't fair for faculty to be being compared in these circumstances.

Our evals have been entirely suspended.

At least one school I am aware of has said, explicitly, that faculty will not be evaluated on teaching this term. I am not entirely sure what this means, but it does seem obvious.

At my school, although nothing explicitly has been said, all of the regular announcements about teaching evaluations have ceased two weeks ago, whereas normally they would have intensified. Some of this might also be that the administrators who tended to occupy themselves with sending such emails might otherwise be occupied.

Quote from: mamselle on March 27, 2020, 04:54:42 PM
I didn't see it above; has it already been mentioned that Harvard has gone to "Emergency Satisfactory" and "Emergency Unsatisfactory" grades for all classes?

That preserves context while releasing the pressure valve to something like humane.

M.

There are two articles on this (at least) in the Crimson:

1. The announcement:

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/28/harvard-coronavirus-universal-satisfactory-unsatisfactory-grading/

2. The push-back:

   https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/27/undergrads-react-grading-change/

M.

Quote from: mamselle on March 28, 2020, 02:23:58 PM
There are two articles on this (at least) in the Crimson:

1. The announcement:

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/28/harvard-coronavirus-universal-satisfactory-unsatisfactory-grading/

2. The push-back:

   https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/27/undergrads-react-grading-change/

M.

Interesting that all of the coflicting preferences use "fairness" as their rationale.

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 28, 2020, 04:32:16 PM

Quote from: mamselle on March 28, 2020, 02:23:58 PM
There are two articles on this (at least) in the Crimson:

1. The announcement:

    https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/28/harvard-coronavirus-universal-satisfactory-unsatisfactory-grading/

2. The push-back:

   https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2020/3/27/undergrads-react-grading-change/

M.

Interesting that all of the coflicting preferences use "fairness" as their rationale.

Indeed, and fairness nowadays means equal outcomes. There are very cheap ways of providing equal outcomes. :-(

We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2020, 05:39:56 PM

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

That raises the question of whether there is any good reason to not make this permananent.

Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2020, 05:39:56 PM

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

From the perspective of the person who would be deluged with emails from students who don't know how to assess their grade probabilities for themselves before the deadline and then get angry emails from students who chose to take a grade and then did badly on the paper/last exam/other thing and don't like their grade, I'm happy that my school is letting students choose after they see the grade.

Quote from: Caracal on March 29, 2020, 05:37:49 AM

Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2020, 05:39:56 PM

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

From the perspective of the person who would be deluged with emails from students who don't know how to assess their grade probabilities for themselves before the deadline and then get angry emails from students who chose to take a grade and then did badly on the paper/last exam/other thing and don't like their grade, I'm happy that my school is letting students choose after they see the grade.

Reminds me the old television show 'Let's Make a Deal.' Do you want to hang on to your oak bedroom furniture set or go for what's behind door #2?

Quote from: mahagonny on March 29, 2020, 08:07:21 AM

Quote from: Caracal on March 29, 2020, 05:37:49 AM

Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2020, 05:39:56 PM

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

From the perspective of the person who would be deluged with emails from students who don't know how to assess their grade probabilities for themselves before the deadline and then get angry emails from students who chose to take a grade and then did badly on the paper/last exam/other thing and don't like their grade, I'm happy that my school is letting students choose after they see the grade.

Reminds me the old television show 'Let's Make a Deal.' Do you want to hang on to your oak bedroom furniture set or go for what's behind door #2?

Nothing at all wrong with making such a scheme permanent. And, the analogy is apt. :-)

Quote from: dismalist on March 29, 2020, 10:43:29 AM

Quote from: mahagonny on March 29, 2020, 08:07:21 AM

Quote from: Caracal on March 29, 2020, 05:37:49 AM

Quote from: dismalist on March 28, 2020, 05:39:56 PM

Quote from: mythbuster on March 28, 2020, 05:04:04 PM
We have gone to an A, B, S, U. System. Students opt in. Faculty do not know who opts in. If gives incentive to at least try. Our drop deadline is now almost the last day of class instead of this coming Friday.

This is an excellent scheme: Anyone who thinks they can do a good job gets an A or a B, with a tad risk. Anyone who thinks they cannot do a good job opts for S/U [and of course get an S, and why not?]. Any employer or graduate program can check this if they think relevant.

I like very much, for incentives are preserved and information is broadcast.

From the perspective of the person who would be deluged with emails from students who don't know how to assess their grade probabilities for themselves before the deadline and then get angry emails from students who chose to take a grade and then did badly on the paper/last exam/other thing and don't like their grade, I'm happy that my school is letting students choose after they see the grade.

Reminds me the old television show 'Let's Make a Deal.' Do you want to hang on to your oak bedroom furniture set or go for what's behind door #2?

Nothing at all wrong with making such a scheme permanent. And, the analogy is apt. :-)

So eventually all transcripts will only contain A's and S's. The only thing to distinguish students by will be the ratio.

"So eventually all transcripts will only contain A's and S's. The only thing to distinguish students by will be the ratio."

De facto, you may well be right. And that's like what we have today, just A's and B's. Because of various kinds of pressure, none of this may matter. We're definitely all in the top 10%!

Quote from: dismalist on March 29, 2020, 11:22:21 AM

"So eventually all transcripts will only contain A's and S's. The only thing to distinguish students by will be the ratio."

De facto, you may well be right. And that's like what we have today, just A's and B's. Because of various kinds of pressure, none of this may matter. We're definitely all in the top 10%!

It's become apparent that no one in a position of authority decided, before the pass/fail policy was announced, what effect a "pass" (or a "fail," for that matter) will have on a student's GPA -- despite GPA determining eligibility for scholarships, study abroad, etc. 

Quote from: spork on March 30, 2020, 09:58:24 AM

Quote from: dismalist on March 29, 2020, 11:22:21 AM

"So eventually all transcripts will only contain A's and S's. The only thing to distinguish students by will be the ratio."

De facto, you may well be right. And that's like what we have today, just A's and B's. Because of various kinds of pressure, none of this may matter. We're definitely all in the top 10%!

It's become apparent that no one in a position of authority decided, before the pass/fail policy was announced, what effect a "pass" (or a "fail," for that matter) will have on a student's GPA -- despite GPA determining eligibility for scholarships, study abroad, etc.

I'm confused, isn't this obvious? A pass has no effect on GPA. You get the credits, and that's it. Presumably a fail counts as an F. Isn't that how it always works?

Yes, it also appears perfectly obvious to me. A Pass does not count as an A. It does not count in the gpa at all. This is standard.

Quote from: Hegemony on March 30, 2020, 01:20:08 PM
Yes, it also appears perfectly obvious to me. A Pass does not count as an A. It does not count in the gpa at all. This is standard.

So, does it matter if half of a students' grades are "Pass"? At what point, if any, does "pass" merely mean "D that won't count as a D"? Will grad schools and employers not care about how many a person has?

Quote from: marshwiggle on March 30, 2020, 01:25:10 PM
So, does it matter if half of a students' grades are "Pass"? At what point, if any, does "pass" merely mean "D that won't count as a D"? Will grad schools and employers not care about how many a person has?

At some schools, only grades of C- or above are equivalent to a pass, and a D grade is a failing grade.  Other schools have a pass/D/fail system. These practices are not universal. Many/most schools include a guide to interpretation of their transcripts with the transcripts they send.

Most schools that I'm familiar with have limits on the number of credits that can be earned (in general, and/or in the major field) under P/F grading.  Some mandate that required courses be taken for a letter grade.  Whether some of these policies will be temporarily waived (and how accreditors will handle it), I don't know.

I imagine that grad schools and employers will make some allowances for the coronavirus-affected terms, which represent only a fraction of a student's university education.

Grad schools and Professional schools will probably make those accommodations, when they have to do so to fill out classes.

Will a Medical School take a student with P grades in required courses from this semester instead of one with A or B grades in those same courses in the same semester.

I worry, but my crystal ball is inscrutable at present.

P/F without context may not be the panacea everyone is hoping for....

Quote from: FishProf on March 30, 2020, 02:25:34 PM
Grad schools and Professional schools will probably make those accommodations, when they have to do so to fill out classes.

I heard today that some selective grad schools (such as UC Berkeley) will put on their application websites that, as part of their holistic admissions review, they will take into account the circumstances in evaluating P grades in the S20 term.

Holistic in this case probably means that a student taking a rigorous curriculum, getting a 3.8 GPA before and after this term, and all P in this term will be credited with doing OK.

I imagine most grad schools will rely on the standardized tests (MCAT, LSAT, GRE, etc...) to identify any potential deficiency.  Worst case is some students may be admitted provisionally and/or be required to pass a subject area test before being officially admitted.  These students might also be asked to take leveling classes.  Admittedly not a perfect solution or outcome, but perhaps a humane reaction in an imperfect time. 

Quote from: Hegemony on March 30, 2020, 01:20:08 PM
Yes, it also appears perfectly obvious to me. A Pass does not count as an A. It does not count in the gpa at all. This is standard.

It's only standard if your academic administrators announce it to be standard. Here no one has announced anything other than that students now have the option of choosing to be graded pass/fail, with a deadline for deciding this set for the last week of classes. Neither students nor faculty know what effect if any this will have on a student's GPA.

It seems to me that this really will not have much effect on most students, except, perhaps, to take some pressure off in the face of really extraordinary circumstances.

If a student has middling grades up to now, it is hard to imagine that his or her grades will be much better after this semester.

If a student has good grades up to now, I would imagine that his or her grades would also be good after this semester.

There are, of course, some students who are taking important classes this term. I happen to be teaching the senior seminar in this term, which requires the students do a research paper. It is not clear to me how many, if any, will be doing this class pass/fail. My guess is that many of the really good students will still do pretty well in the class. Their transcripts will still be full of good grades up to now, even if they do take the P/F option. Most of the middling students will do not so well, but will probably still pass. Their transcripts will be full of lower grades up to now, even if they take P/F option.

But I have some students who are good students who will certainly do worse than they would have done otherwise, for various reasons (illness, no library, unemployment, over employment). I have no desire to fail these students or delay their graduation.

If such a student were to apply to graduate school, I would think that other criteria (letters, test scores, overall performance as an undergraduate) would be taken into account.

I am not sure how many, if any, students are going to get into Harvard for grad school who otherwise wouldn't, and how many are not going to get in, who otherwise would have.

Quote from: spork on March 30, 2020, 06:15:20 PM
Here no one has announced anything other than that students now have the option of choosing to be graded pass/fail, with a deadline for deciding this set for the last week of classes. Neither students nor faculty know what effect if any this will have on a student's GPA.

Does your school ever offer a P/F option under other circumstances?  If so, how does a grade of P or F ordinarily affect a student's GPA?

Quote from: namazu on March 30, 2020, 08:38:26 PM

Quote from: spork on March 30, 2020, 06:15:20 PM
Here no one has announced anything other than that students now have the option of choosing to be graded pass/fail, with a deadline for deciding this set for the last week of classes. Neither students nor faculty know what effect if any this will have on a student's GPA.

Does your school ever offer a P/F option under other circumstances?  If so, how does a grade of P or F ordinarily affect a student's GPA?

Who knows? For years, we've had a revolving door of administrators, with none of these policies being documented, and a do-nothing system of faculty governance.

Quote from: spork on March 31, 2020, 04:54:51 AM

Quote from: namazu on March 30, 2020, 08:38:26 PM

Quote from: spork on March 30, 2020, 06:15:20 PM
Here no one has announced anything other than that students now have the option of choosing to be graded pass/fail, with a deadline for deciding this set for the last week of classes. Neither students nor faculty know what effect if any this will have on a student's GPA.

Does your school ever offer a P/F option under other circumstances?  If so, how does a grade of P or F ordinarily affect a student's GPA?

Who knows? For years, we've had a revolving door of administrators, with none of these policies being documented, and a do-nothing system of faculty governance.

That's mighty unfortunate!

Two weeks left in our extended semester, and I'm encountering students who don't realize that opting for pass/fail when already at a C+ in a course confers no benefit.

Quote from: spork on May 01, 2020, 03:26:12 AM
Two weeks left in our extended semester, and I'm encountering students who don't realize that opting for pass/fail when already at a C+ in a course confers no benefit.

What do you mean? If their GPA is higher than a 2.3 than of course it would be to their benefit to take the credits and not lower the GPA?

We can control how we handle internal grades and CGPA. Our decision was that a P (meaning any grade D and above) would not count towards GPA; F's will count, however earned. As others have pointed out, whether or not that's a good thing depends on the grade that a student would otherwise earn, and upon their overall CGPA.

However, as others have noted, we often require a C or better for prerequisites, for graduate courses, and for courses in many of our professional licensure programs. As a result, those courses were not allowed to elect P/F as a grading system. The logic, I assume, is the same that some of us discussed on other threads: D's are useful to distinguish students who have (almost) completed the work, and who should not be asked to retake a course, but whose success is not sufficient to use that course as a basis for follow-on coursework.

We have warned students, however, that P grades may not be eligible for transfer elsewhere -- our normal policy is to accept only grades of C or better, although we have other policies for AP courses, CLEP exams, and other equivalencies, so this may wind up being decided piecemeal, and may well depend on Departments. Humanities Departments might accept P's for Calculus, while our Engineering ones may not. It might well wind up being a "holistic" decision, as somebody upthread says will be Berkeley's practice.

A lifetime ago I worked in a law school admissions department. My job was to crunch the numbers, both generating a standardized "GPA equivalent" and combining it with LSAT scores. My current admissions department has a similar product, which they then use as one component in generating an overall "score" for applicants. The idea, in part, is to create a more or less objective number, in order to rank candidates. That said, in both places that objective score was almost immediately examined within all kinds of contexts, for all kinds of reasons. The P/F grades will be one more factor, and probably no more difficult to evaluate than others. In some cases, people might need to see an explanation of how an institution handled this crisis, but that's no different from getting syllabi, course descriptions, and grade distributions, which is standard operating procedure.

How is your school implementing their new P/F policy? What do you have to do?

One place I teach leaves it to the student to arrange it with the Registrar. This is the right way to do it.

Another place requires students to send me a form which I have to sign and then send to the Registrar. It turns out that electronically signing the forms is actually quite tricky, and that students are not good at filling out forms. So this is the wrong way to to it.

Quote from: dr_codex on May 01, 2020, 04:52:40 AM

[. . .]

A lifetime ago I worked in a law school admissions department. My job was to crunch the numbers, both generating a standardized "GPA equivalent" and combining it with LSAT scores. My current admissions department has a similar product, which they then use as one component in generating an overall "score" for applicants.

[. . .]

I once had a conversation with the dean of a law school where admissions operated in a similar fashion. Someone in the admissions office would mark up each applicant's transcript to highlight courses that were likely taken to boost the applicant's GPA. The GPA was then weighted downward accordingly.

The students here are not going to law school though. What is probably happening: students are taking all courses outside of their majors as pass/fail. The more the general grade distribution in a major is skewed toward A+, the more likely the student from that major will go pass/fail for courses taught out of other departments. Even though no one will ever ask them after graduating what their GPA was. They seem to believe that GPA somehow matters, even though they are here to get a diploma, not learn.

At my institution, instructors could choose to make their entire class S/F (not recommended) or let individual students request S/F. For the latter, the student simply emails the instructor to request this option. Instructors, however, have been warned that in some instances (for scholarships, etc) students still need a letter grade. My approach has been to tell students that they must consult with their academic advisors before requesting S/F grading in my courses. I don't need (or want!) the details as to why they are requesting S/F grading, but I do want them to have professional consultation before doing something that could have long term academic consequences.  [Not that their academic advisor is necessarily going to give them the correct advice, based on my past experiences with some of our "advisors."]  I worry that the requirement that they consult with an academic advisor is an extra hurdle for students who may be stretched very thin from the current circumstances, but I also think that students may not be aware of the requirements to stay eligible for some scholarships. So far, the handful of students who have requested S/F grading have indicated that they are doing so after consulting with academic advisors, so this approach does seem to be working.

One of my concerns about students who have opted for S/F is that they are in danger of F.  I worry that they will not realize that they still need to complete some work to earn the passing grade.

Here, students were given the option to take P/F on a class-by-class basis. The deadline was the last day of class. Originally faculty were told to pass along to students that P/F decisions couldn't be appealed. This is complicated by the fact that many of our freshman gateway classes don't assign Fs -- below a 70 is designated "no credit," which forces the student to repeat but doesn't count against GPA. Interestingly, a P in the P/F scheme is 60 and above, even in classes where 70 is required to receive credit. That means a lot of Freshman are taking that option to increase their chances of passing. Unfortunately, an F will negatively impact the GPA in a way that a "no credit" would not, so they're shooting themselves in the foot.

(Anecdotally, students in my class who took the P/F option pretty much stopped turning in work. In my freshmen class, none of the P/Fs were in the 60-69 range, and about 1/4 received an F)

Now the Dean's Office is telling us that any student who appeals their P/F decision -- either they regret opting in when they would've gotten a good grade, or because they F'd, or because they didn't opt in when it would have helped -- will have their appeals upheld. So now students can see what they earned before deciding to appeal. And as been said upthread, this task is a bit onerous for instructors.

Quote from: downer on May 01, 2020, 06:13:10 AM
How is your school implementing their new P/F policy? What do you have to do?

One place I teach leaves it to the student to arrange it with the Registrar. This is the right way to do it.

Same-- we don't know who has elected P/F, we just submit their letter grades and they get converted if the student has so elected.

Our system is actually more like grade insurance than a traditional P/F option where they have to elect it early-- that is, they get to see their letter grades, and can then request conversion to P/F for a course. Normally, they get a max of 4 of these in their college career and can't apply it to any course counted for a major or minor, so it's pretty limited and intended to encourage some risk taking with out-of-comfort-zone classes in our generally risk--averse, high-achieving, students. For this semester however, they can convert as many courses as they want and those will continue to count for majors and minors-- that seems like a reasonable accommodation given the circumstances.

In the end:

Quote from: Puget on May 01, 2020, 06:58:16 AM

Same-- we don't know who has elected P/F, we just submit their letter grades and they get converted if the student has so elected.

Our system is actually more like grade insurance than a traditional P/F option where they have to elect it early-- that is, they get to see their letter grades, and can then request conversion to P/F for a course. Normally, they get a max of 4 of these in their college career and can't apply it to any course counted for a major or minor, so it's pretty limited and intended to encourage some risk taking with out-of-comfort-zone classes in our generally risk--averse, high-achieving, students. For this semester however, they can convert as many courses as they want and those will continue to count for majors and minors-- that seems like a reasonable accommodation given the circumstances.

Same here. Except that when I went to enter grade, I noticed that 'F' had been replaced with 'NC' ('no credit'). Faculty were never advised of this change, and there's no guidance about it anywhere on the site beyond saying it stands for 'no credit'. But since the alternative was giving my Fs Ds, and since there was no time to ask anyone (we have half an hour once we open the form), I assigned them NC. Shrug.

My institution made the wise decision to not attempt it.

In hindsight, hearing all of the problems experienced by others, I am especially thankful that we opted out.

Quote from: Puget on May 01, 2020, 06:58:16 AM

Quote from: downer on May 01, 2020, 06:13:10 AM
How is your school implementing their new P/F policy? What do you have to do?

One place I teach leaves it to the student to arrange it with the Registrar. This is the right way to do it.

Same-- we don't know who has elected P/F, we just submit their letter grades and they get converted if the student has so elected.

Our system is actually more like grade insurance than a traditional P/F option where they have to elect it early-- that is, they get to see their letter grades, and can then request conversion to P/F for a course. Normally, they get a max of 4 of these in their college career and can't apply it to any course counted for a major or minor, so it's pretty limited and intended to encourage some risk taking with out-of-comfort-zone classes in our generally risk--averse, high-achieving, students. For this semester however, they can convert as many courses as they want and those will continue to count for majors and minors-- that seems like a reasonable accommodation given the circumstances.

Yeah, it isn't something I have to deal with in any way. It just means that my students are less anxious about their grades. Good for me, good for them.

TBH, judging from the emails I've gotten from students, I'm not sure that they actually know about the pass/fail option.

Quote from: Parasaurolophus on May 01, 2020, 12:11:17 PM
TBH, judging from the emails I've gotten from students, I'm not sure that they actually know about the pass/fail option.

I have one student who was failing before the outbreak but is now (barely) passing. She wrote to ask whether she should drop the class and try it again in the future. Since her grade has improved during "these difficult times" it is not clear that she is eligible for S/F grading in the spirit within which our institution has implemented it. However, I did suggest that this is not the time to drop the class, and that she should look into grading options that are available this semester. She has not yet asked for S/F grading, but I will do so if she makes the request, even though the present circumstances appear to be helping rather than hindering her academic performance.

My university is allowing students to have their grade changed to "emergency pass" by emailing professor within 10 days following deadline for posting grades. Students are advised to consult advisors first, since the EP may affect eligibility for courses with prerequisites, scholarship or veteran's benefits, etc.

Students are confused by the EP option. I've been telling them it's like a lifeboat. They should all be doing their best to study and keep grades up, but if anyone gets grade and realizes they've fallen overboard, the EP option is a lifeboat that gives them a chance to stay alive until rescue. But they need to do their best not to need that lifeboat.

Quote from: Vkw10 on May 03, 2020, 02:38:43 PM
My university is allowing students to have their grade changed to "emergency pass" by emailing professor within 10 days following deadline for posting grades. Students are advised to consult advisors first, since the EP may affect eligibility for courses with prerequisites, scholarship or veteran's benefits, etc.

Students are confused by the EP option. I've been telling them it's like a lifeboat. They should all be doing their best to study and keep grades up, but if anyone gets grade and realizes they've fallen overboard, the EP option is a lifeboat that gives them a chance to stay alive until rescue. But they need to do their best not to need that lifeboat.

Why make the professor have to do it? Seems like an unnecessary hassle and an extra opportunity for something to get screwed up. Can't they just write the registrar?

Our university went to pass/fail, but it did not impact how I entered grades. I still entered a letter grade and then it was converted to pass/fail. Students have until a specified date to keep it pass/fail or reveal their grade on their transcript. They cannot subsequently change their decision. I teach in a competitive program. Students were still trying to earn an A (e.g., contesting final exam grades) because they had been told that the actual letter grade would still be reviewed for scholarship/award purposes.