The U of C has dropped the SAT requirement for entry:
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/05/21/university-of-california-eliminates-sat-act-requirement-1285435 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/05/21/university-of-california-eliminates-sat-act-requirement-1285435)
I am in two minds about this, probably more than two:
-I know there has to be rationing. Question is what the rationing device or devices should be.
-Upon her first standardized test, my wife was contacted that our daughter was a moron [not joking]. We knew that our daughter was not a moron. Proof is that she earned a PhD in Microbiology this past November.
This is serious for many people. Any further minds?
Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.
Quote from: Morden on May 21, 2020, 09:11:48 PM
Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.
Neither does Britain. But what we do have (at least in normal times), which the US lacks, is a pre-university credentialing system that is independent of secondary tuition. It is not without its flaws (indeed, they are many), but what seems key to me is that the credential (an a-level with a grade) is awarded by an independent body to a very large degree in a transparent way, free from the influence of grade-grubbing children and parents, and the teachers who often have to please them (particularly at private schools). Without the SAT/ACT, the US lacks any such measure/credential. Perhaps the SAT/ACT are so flawed that they cannot serve this purpose even minimally, but it's hard for me not to see that the absence of it (or something like it) makes admission to elite universities even easier for the privileged to game.
Quote from: the_walrus on May 22, 2020, 03:01:30 AM
Quote from: Morden on May 21, 2020, 09:11:48 PM
Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.
Neither does Britain. But what we do have (at least in normal times), which the US lacks, is a pre-university credentialing system that is independent of secondary tuition. It is not without its flaws (indeed, they are many), but what seems key to me is that the credential (an a-level with a grade) is awarded by an independent body to a very large degree in a transparent way, free from the influence of grade-grubbing children and parents, and the teachers who often have to please them (particularly at private schools). Without the SAT/ACT, the US lacks any such measure/credential. Perhaps the SAT/ACT are so flawed that they cannot serve this purpose even minimally, but it's hard for me not to see that the absence of it (or something like it) makes admission to elite universities even easier for the privileged to game.
My kids (in Canada) all did IB. Since it's also centrally graded, they all found the transition to university pretty easy. Several provinces also have provincial exams (OH NO! STANDARDIZED TESTS!!!!!-just to prempt this from Americans) so that individual schools can't just do whatever they want.
The University of California has an unusual mandate to draw from the top 12.5% of the graduating high school class statewide. They only admit some of that cohort, so there is ranking even within that.
How do you tell whether a student is in that group with the vast range in academic ability and preparation across the different schools in California? There are some schools where most of the students are in the statewide top eighth. There are also schools where hardly any students can demonstrate that they are in the top eighth.
California already has a lot of legislation to determine what merits count towards being "top", so UC is quite constrained already.
One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.
Quote from: Hibush on May 22, 2020, 06:57:28 AM
One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.
Eliminating the testing is kind of a left equivalent of climate change denial on thr right; if we don't have a quick fix for the underlying problem, just refuse to accept any data which supports it!
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 22, 2020, 07:40:07 AM
Quote from: Hibush on May 22, 2020, 06:57:28 AM
One possibility is that the SAT is currently the least gamable component of the application and the net effect is that some applicants from underresourced schools will not longer have a high standardized-test score to help admissions officers identify them as being admissible.
Eliminating the testing is kind of a left equivalent of climate change denial on thr right; if we don't have a quick fix for the underlying problem, just refuse to accept any data which supports it!
You mean, like, not funding public schools through property taxes?
Just use zip codes to sort applicants. High correlation with SAT/ACT scores, and it eliminates the College Board and ETS as tax-exempt, rent-seeking middlemen.
Quote from: Morden on May 21, 2020, 09:11:48 PM
Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.
The only difference is that, AFAIK, a high school graduate in Toronto will get the same education and be evaluated against the same standards as one in Montreal.
In the US, the high school education between a student in Alabama and Connecticut is day and night.
In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.
Quote from: Morden on May 22, 2020, 08:43:38 AM
In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.
Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades? Are they better predictors of academic success or they fit the bill of "evaluation under a common standard"?
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: Morden on May 22, 2020, 08:43:38 AM
In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.
Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?
As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.
Note that in provinces with provincial testing, the provincial exam score usually makes up a significant portion of the final grade in a course. (In Quebec, where I went to school, for all of the courses in the last 2 years of high school the provincial exam grade counted for 50% of the final course grade.)
Quote
Are they better predictors of academic success or they fit the bill of "evaluation under a common standard"?
To the best of my knowledge, there are no essays, or lists of extracurricular activities, etc. that are part of the admission process which I understand is common in the US, if that's what you mean. All that matters is incoming grades.
(Also, many universities have specific requirements for applicants from other provinces.)
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 22, 2020, 09:01:44 AM
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: Morden on May 22, 2020, 08:43:38 AM
In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.
Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?
As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.
do Canadian universities require applicants to submit an essay, or consider any other 'holistic' criteria? (athletics, volunteering, etc).
Bravo U of C. About time.
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:34:38 AM
Quote from: Morden on May 21, 2020, 09:11:48 PM
Canada doesn't have the equivalent of the SAT or ACT. We manage.
The only difference is that, AFAIK, a high school graduate in Toronto will get the same education and be evaluated against the same standards as one in Montreal.
In the US, the high school education between a student in Alabama and Connecticut is day and night.
Yeah, that's true. Educational outcomes in Canada are incredibly even and robust across the board, even across racial/ethnic and income lines, as well as immigration status. (The one exception, unsurprisingly, is indigenous status, and that says a lot about the way educational and other resources are allocated.) It doesn't really matter where you go to elementary school, high school, or university (for undergrad). IIRC, our educational outcomes are the most even in the world (or, at least, they're among the most even).
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 22, 2020, 09:01:44 AM
To the best of my knowledge, there are no essays, or lists of extracurricular activities, etc. that are part of the admission process which I understand is common in the US, if that's what you mean. All that matters is incoming grades.
(Also, many universities have specific requirements for applicants from other provinces.)
I had to submit an essay and list of my extracurriculars when I applied to university. It's possible that was for scholarship rather than admissions consideration, but I don't remember.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on May 22, 2020, 09:32:05 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 22, 2020, 09:01:44 AM
Quote from: stemer on May 22, 2020, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: Morden on May 22, 2020, 08:43:38 AM
In Canada, education is a provincial responsibility, so the curriculum varies between provinces. Some provinces have provincial exams linked to specific courses, but other provinces do not. For most programs, admission offers are made based on secondary school grades, regardless of where the student went to high school.
Interesting, thank you for the clarification about provinces. Now I am curious, what is the rationale of using secondary school grades?
As opposed to what? There isn't any sort of national test so that's the best there is. Some universties are known to make an adjustment to incoming grades based on past data for students from different high schools.
do Canadian universities require applicants to submit an essay, or consider any other 'holistic' criteria? (athletics, volunteering, etc).
Not in any place I've seen.
We also (to the best of my knowledge) don't have "legacy" admissions; it doesn't matter if any family members went there. The only thing along that line that I've come across is that children of
current employees of institutions often get a tuition deduction as an employee perk.
Basically it's much less about cultural absorption and much more about explicit formal education.
For some very specific programs (for example, arts programs, midwifery, or interior design), there may be additional screening using interviews or portfolios, but there's not usually an essay or list of extracurricular materials for undergraduate admission. People who want to apply for graduate programs, of course, usually write statements of research interest, etc.
Quote from: Morden on May 22, 2020, 09:57:54 AM
For some very specific programs (for example, arts programs, midwifery, or interior design), there may be additional screening using interviews or portfolios, but there's not usually an essay or list of extracurricular materials for undergraduate admission.
Auditions for music programs are required here. Probably theatre programs would require them as well.
Quote from: dismalist on May 21, 2020, 08:42:12 PM
The U of C has dropped the SAT requirement for entry:
https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/05/21/university-of-california-eliminates-sat-act-requirement-1285435 (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/05/21/university-of-california-eliminates-sat-act-requirement-1285435)
I am in two minds about this, probably more than two:
-I know there has to be rationing. Question is what the rationing device or devices should be.
-Upon her first standardized test, my wife was contacted that our daughter was a moron [not joking]. We knew that our daughter was not a moron. Proof is that she earned a PhD in Microbiology this past November.
This is serious for many people. Any further minds?
It's good news. I taught at a second-tier U of C before. Even with the SAT, there're so many morons. So why not.
Most Canadian higher ed insts. are public, right, and tuition is enormously lower than even at US public unis-- why is this, exactly? Because the govts, fed and provincial, still fund higher ed much more than govts here do? And/or something else? As noted above, there is apparently very strong uniformity of quality in secondary school ed in Canada across the country, much more than is the case even within most states in the US (someone compared CT to AL, and, while the general comparison is valid, in the sense that the average pub hs in CT greatly exceeds the average AL one in academic quality, CT has shitty urban schools too (and CT also has the lowest level of state, as opposed to local, funding given to public school districts, whereas there have to be some comparatively excellent pub hs in wealthy all-white AL suburbs, right?), but is this uniformity seen in Canadian secondary ed also seen in Canadian higher ed, or are there really the equivalents of Harvard and Williams vs. Northeast Hillbilly JC, up north? Sadly, there really is no serious alternative to college board tests for American undergrad admissions, as colleges simply cannot compare 'grades' and increasingly even mere course 'titles' on hs transcripts-- this is even true for expensive *private* hss. Really, they can't.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 22, 2020, 09:26:19 PM
Most Canadian higher ed insts. are public, right, and tuition is enormously lower than even at US public unis-- why is this, exactly? Because the govts, fed and provincial, still fund higher ed much more than govts here do? And/or something else?
The USA was "formed" by a revolution; Canada was "formed" by a compromise. Americans are highly suspicious of governments; Canadians see governments as a way to come up witha reasonable solution to problems. So Canadians support universal health care and relatively high funding for education, because they see government involvement as the way to establsih relatively consistent standards and universal access. Americans seem (to a much greater degree) view government involvement as overbearing and inefficient. (My impression, anyway)
Quote
As noted above, there is apparently very strong uniformity of quality in secondary school ed in Canada across the country, much more than is the case even within most states in the US (someone compared CT to AL, and, while the general comparison is valid, in the sense that the average pub hs in CT greatly exceeds the average AL one in academic quality, CT has shitty urban schools too (and CT also has the lowest level of state, as opposed to local, funding given to public school districts, whereas there have to be some comparatively excellent pub hs in wealthy all-white AL suburbs, right?), but is this uniformity seen in Canadian secondary ed also seen in Canadian higher ed, or are there really the equivalents of Harvard and Williams vs. Northeast Hillbilly JC, up north?
Not remotely to the extent of the US. Certain institutions have high reputatins
for certain programs, but there's not the same obsessive push by parents to get their kids into specific institutions
regardless of program.(But "going to college" is not some sort of cultural expectation in Canada like it is in the US either, even though the rate of post-secondary attendance is higher here, I believe.)
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 22, 2020, 09:26:19 PMSadly, there really is no serious alternative to college board tests for American undergrad admissions, as colleges simply cannot compare 'grades' and increasingly even mere course 'titles' on hs transcripts-- this is even true for expensive *private* hss.
Yes, there is - much like certain programs have auditions, etc as part of the admissions process, a college could have its own exams as parts of the admission process. Oxbridge in the UK do that, or at last did a few years ago even though England and Wales have a pretty standardized system with A-levels.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 23, 2020, 04:48:36 AM
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 22, 2020, 09:26:19 PM
Most Canadian higher ed insts. are public, right, and tuition is enormously lower than even at US public unis-- why is this, exactly? Because the govts, fed and provincial, still fund higher ed much more than govts here do? And/or something else?
The USA was "formed" by a revolution; Canada was "formed" by a compromise. Americans are highly suspicious of governments; Canadians see governments as a way to come up with a reasonable solution to problems. So Canadians support universal health care and relatively high funding for education, because they see government involvement as the way to establish relatively consistent standards and universal access. Americans seem (to a much greater degree) view government involvement as overbearing and inefficient. (My impression, anyway)
Very true. I use this phenomena to describe to foreign students our strange obsession with hating taxes and public services.
Other students with corrupt (or worse) governments are equally suspicious of government and even more concerned about what goes into their student records, the presence of campus security guards, etc.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 22, 2020, 09:26:19 PM
Most Canadian higher ed insts. are public, right,
They pretty much all are. The private institutions are religious seminaries and colleges, and they're not at all reputable (except, maybe, for some religious things). The only exception, to my mind, is Quest University, which is private but not-for-profit.
Quote from: marshwiggle on May 23, 2020, 04:48:36 AM
(But "going to college" is not some sort of cultural expectation in Canada like it is in the US either, even though the rate of post-secondary attendance is higher here, I believe.)
It's the highest in the OECD, with a little over 60% of 25-34 year-olds having a tertiary degree, if memory serves.
Sure, individual schools could establish their own entrance exams, but the logistics of this would be nightmarish for most students, many of whom want to apply to a dozen or more schools, and such schools may be literally 3000+ miles away from their home.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 23, 2020, 09:19:41 PM
Sure, individual schools could establish their own entrance exams, but the logistics of this would be nightmarish for most students, many of whom want to apply to a dozen or more schools, and such schools may be literally 3000+ miles away from their home.
If this move resulted in students applying to half as many schools as they do now, the admissions rate would double. That would make students worry less. Of course the same number of students would be admitted somewhere as there are currently.
Quote from: kaysixteen on May 23, 2020, 09:19:41 PM
Sure, individual schools could establish their own entrance exams, but the logistics of this would be nightmarish for most students, many of whom want to apply to a dozen or more schools, and such schools may be literally 3000+ miles away from their home.
Institutions could partner up so that bunches of them accepted each other's exams in lieu of their own, or used the same exam. In the absence of a centralized HS system (like A-levels) or standardized testing, I don't see how else other than entrance exams colleges could compare students from different schools even somewhat fairly. I guess they could be compared on the likelihood of becoming generous alumni or of their parents being generous donors.
Quote from: Stockmann on May 25, 2020, 09:42:49 AM
[I don't see how else other than entrance exams colleges could compare students from different schools even somewhat fairly. I guess they could be compared on the likelihood of becoming generous alumni or of their parents being generous donors.
[/quote
Watch for the ones who were on championship sailing, lacrosse or polo teams. You don't even have to offer that sport.