Yesterday, after teaching my group of supremely apathetic and unengaged students on Zoom I finally had it. My frustration finally got the better of me, and 15 minutes into the Zoom session I abruptly ended class by telling them that I wouldn't continue on, and that I was tired of them not engaging with the material or me. I also told them that they would responsible for everything we would have covered in class, as I would not be going over this day's lecture next time we met.
Examples of this non-engagement throughout this semester:
- I can't even get them to respond to "good morning" when I start the Zoom meeting, even though I have told them that it helps me establish that they can hear me (never mind that it's common courtesy to acknowledge a greeting).
- Over half of the students don't even bother to turn on their cameras, I'm just tired of doing a virtual podcast.
- I will explain a concept, ask if they have any question, get none, and then literally a minute later give them a short question/simple problem about this and none can do it.
- I will ask their *opinion* on something subjective (i.e., no right or wrong answer), and none of them will offer one.
- When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.
- The only students who have shown up during office hours have come to haggle over points (based on not reading the assignment or feedback carefully - i.e., pointless)
I%u2019ve been teaching for quite a while, and I'm at a loss, I've never had a group like this who isn't even minimally interested in participating in their own learning. I am very frustrated. It's not as if everyone is acing the class, not even close.
I am pretty sure I am going to lift my required attendance policy (though I will continue to track it) - if they don't want to be there, they shouldn't, they aren't doing anyone a favor.
I'm not happy this happened, but it did.
So, my question is, what do I do next?Do I resume my class tomorrow as if nothing has happened? Do I just drone on and on and give up asking them any questions as they never volunteer any answers, and if called on, act put upon? What's the point of having class if there's no interaction between the parties? I'm trying to avoid just being the one talking non-stop for the whole 50 minutes, hence questions and breakout rooms - to no avail.
As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?
How do I turn this around to be a more successful class for them and myself?FWIW, my two other classes are going along as mostly expected, also via Zoom, with much more student engagement.
PS: They know that 5% of their final grade is based on class contribution/participation.
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 10:45:47 AM
As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?
This seems to be the basis for your expectations. Students who aren't like you won't see being (apparently) passive as a bad thing.
I've been teaching completely asynchronously since the beginning of the pandemic; no Zoom sessions or recorded material at all. Most students have managed to complete everything (most of my teaching is labs and courses with a heavy lab/project component) without ever needing to interact face-to-face in real time, many without even by email.
Based on the quality of their work, they were pretty "engaged" even though many of them
never directly interacted with me.
I realize it doesn't answer the question, but I thought a different perspective might be helpful.
Several years ago, in a face-to-face course, I had student engagement problems. At the recommendation of a friend, I used a mid-semester evaluation activity to help get things back on track. Without my having to say anything explicitly, the activity itself indicated that effective teaching requires input both from the instructor and the students.
The activity:
1) take a blank piece of paper and draw/fold so that there are four quadrants.
2) label the four quadrants as (a) what the instructor does well; (b) what I am doing well; (c) what the instructor could do to improve; (d) what I could do to improve
3) fill out answers in each respective quadrant and hand in
4) report common answers at next class meeting
You can do this virtually with type-written answers in blank Word/Google doc documents. It should be anonymous, so don't have it done as an assignment with corresponding entry in the grade book.
I received the expected feedback on my teaching (good and bad). The students acknowledged that they should be spending more time engaging with the material outside of class so that they were prepared in class. One other most common "bad" behaviour was lack of sleep (this was an early morning class meeting time).
Having a frank discussion based on the results of this activity helped build trust and improved further class discussions on course topics. As a class, they were still far-below typical norms of engagement in that course, but at least I was no longer frustrated every.single.day.
Having said that, I expect that this activity will not work well if you do it immediately after you have publickly called them out on their behaviour. It will take time to re-build any raport that you had before.
Yes, in order for a dead class to engage, you have to give them something to do, or they won't do anything, as you know. I wouldn't grade it at first, but start grading them and include them in some aspect of your established syllabus if they don't even do that.
Don't end class again, at least not that early. That will just haunt you.
We all face this problem at some point or another (or most of us do), and its Ok to force them to do stuff if they don't do it on their own.
I feel for you op - and have to chuckle at the nerve it must have taken to end class after 15 minutes of disengaged students.
At this point, you probably need to course correct, both for your sake and for theirs. You could try to engage them with fun activities or start cold calling and shaming those who are too lazy or ignorant to respond. Either way, let us know how it goes!
Quote from: marshwiggle on October 26, 2021, 11:39:16 AM
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 10:45:47 AM
As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?
This seems to be the basis for your expectations. Students who aren't like you won't see being (apparently) passive as a bad thing.
I've been teaching completely asynchronously since the beginning of the pandemic; no Zoom sessions or recorded material at all. Most students have managed to complete everything (most of my teaching is labs and courses with a heavy lab/project component) without ever needing to interact face-to-face in real time, many without even by email.
Based on the quality of their work, they were pretty "engaged" even though many of them never directly interacted with me.
I realize it doesn't answer the question, but I thought a different perspective might be helpful.
Yes, thank you, certainly food for thought. I appreciate you sharing this with me.
Quote from: arcturus on October 26, 2021, 11:43:59 AM
Several years ago, in a face-to-face course, I had student engagement problems. At the recommendation of a friend, I used a mid-semester evaluation activity to help get things back on track. Without my having to say anything explicitly, the activity itself indicated that effective teaching requires input both from the instructor and the students.
The activity:
1) take a blank piece of paper and draw/fold so that there are four quadrants.
2) label the four quadrants as (a) what the instructor does well; (b) what I am doing well; (c) what the instructor could do to improve; (d) what I could do to improve
3) fill out answers in each respective quadrant and hand in
4) report common answers at next class meeting
You can do this virtually with type-written answers in blank Word/Google doc documents. It should be anonymous, so don't have it done as an assignment with corresponding entry in the grade book.
I received the expected feedback on my teaching (good and bad). The students acknowledged that they should be spending more time engaging with the material outside of class so that they were prepared in class. One other most common "bad" behaviour was lack of sleep (this was an early morning class meeting time).
Having a frank discussion based on the results of this activity helped build trust and improved further class discussions on course topics. As a class, they were still far-below typical norms of engagement in that course, but at least I was no longer frustrated every.single.day.
Having said that, I expect that this activity will not work well if you do it immediately after you have publickly called them out on their behaviour. It will take time to re-build any raport that you had before.
Thanks for the suggestion, and advice re timing. I used to give midsemester surveys, but stopped a few years ago, perhaps a good reason to resume them again. I hadn't heard of the specific method you mention, I like it, as it requires reflection on everyone's behavior.
Quote from: Ruralguy on October 26, 2021, 11:56:09 AM
Yes, in order for a dead class to engage, you have to give them something to do, or they won't do anything, as you know. I wouldn't grade it at first, but start grading them and include them in some aspect of your established syllabus if they don't even do that.
Don't end class again, at least not that early. That will just haunt you.
We all face this problem at some point or another (or most of us do), and its Ok to force them to do stuff if they don't do it on their own.
Thank you, yes, I don't plan to repeat this, my frustration just really got to that point. Not proud this happened.
Quote from: Sun_Worshiper on October 26, 2021, 12:12:59 PM
I feel for you op - and have to chuckle at the nerve it must have taken to end class after 15 minutes of disengaged students.
At this point, you probably need to course correct, both for your sake and for theirs. You could try to engage them with fun activities or start cold calling and shaming those who are too lazy or ignorant to respond. Either way, let us know how it goes!
Well, it wasn't planned, I just had enough and couldn't muster going on. It was rash, and in retrospect probably not wise. I'm not sure this helps students realize how their passivity has an effect on others (me) or if this will have any impact on them. I come prepared to every class, I expect a minimum of participation from the students - they can't even respond to a "good morning". I see learning as a cooperative thing, but I feel like I have to carry all of it, as someone upstream correctly said, this expectation may be the cause of my problems.
Yes, I will have to make some adjustments, hence my post here and looking for ideas/suggestions. I appreciate the posts I've gotten thus far.
I agree that asynchronous is better. But let's assume that you're stuck with Zoom for now.
You have to call on people specifically and randomly. Example:
"Let's look at this paragraph from 1850 complaining about why women didn't want to get married. I'm going to call on someone to read it, and then I'm going to call on someone to answer this question: what does this writer get right about women's reasons, or what does he get wrong? I'm going to share my screen now. There, everyone see the paragraph? Brandon, will you read us that paragraph out loud? No, you're muted. There." [Brandon reads the paragraph out loud.] "Well, that's some opinion! Let's collect views on whether this author got it right. Emily, give us your thoughts — is this guy an idiot, or does he understand women? You're muted. Okay, go." [Emily slowly gives her opinion, with increasing emphasis.] "So Emily, that sounds like you think he's an idiot?" [Emily answers.] "Right, we have one vote for idiot. Martin, what are your thoughts on this guy's understanding of women? You're muted." [Martin gives opinion.] "Great observation, Martin, I especially like how you pointed out that [whatever]. We have two votes for 'idiot.' Anyone think maybe this guy has a bit of a point?" Etc.
Also, you can give them a specific thing to figure out and then put them in short breakout rooms. Then specifically call on them to report the conclusion that was reached in their room's discussion.
In in-person classes, sometimes you can get by without calling on students randomly. I just don't think you can do it by Zoom. It's too cumbersome and time-consuming and potentially humiliating to volunteer. They just won't do it, as you have observed. But they DO have thoughts about the topic. You just have to make it easier for them to speak up, by calling on them.
I also make it known that when people's cameras are off, I will call on them more frequently. That helps keep cameras on. And sometimes I take informal polls — "Hands up if you think Mrs. Smith should have divorced her husband. One, two, three... I think divorce has a majority. Yet there could have been some drawbacks to divorce in the 19th century, as we've seen. Mason, I see you didn't raise your hand. Why would you have advised Mrs. Smith not to divorce?" And so on. You have to go out and get the comments.
I've had similar problems - no one turns on the camera, almost no one greets anyone when we start, few people interacting with the material at all. I've had some luck with embedding questions as multiple choice Zoom polls instead of asking for answers more directly. I still get a significant number that won't answer, but the response is better and I get some idea of where they're at. I've also noticed fewer people that don't log off after class finishes (the ones I suspect login and then disappear to game or sleep). I just have a generic poll set up, so that if needed, I can make something up as it occurs. Clear the results and re-use as needed.
I still haven't had much luck getting people to interact in breakout rooms though.
Quote from: Hegemony on October 26, 2021, 12:27:29 PM
I agree that asynchronous is better. But let's assume that you're stuck with Zoom for now.
You have to call on people specifically and randomly.
Also, you can give them a specific thing to figure out and then put them in short breakout rooms. Then specifically call on them to report the conclusion that was reached in their room's discussion.
In in-person classes, sometimes you can get by without calling on students randomly. I just don't think you can do it by Zoom. It's too cumbersome and time-consuming and potentially humiliating to volunteer. They just won't do it, as you have observed. But they DO have thoughts about the topic. You just have to make it easier for them to speak up, by calling on them.
I also make it known that when people's cameras are off, I will call on them more frequently. That helps keep cameras on. And sometimes I take informal polls — "Hands up if you think Mrs. Smith should have divorced her husband. One, two, three... I think divorce has a majority. Yet there could have been some drawbacks to divorce in the 19th century, as we've seen. Mason, I see you didn't raise your hand. Why would you have advised Mrs. Smith not to divorce?" And so on. You have to go out and get the comments.
Loved your very vivid example - thank you.
I am in a synchronous setup - but I have now decided to do away with the required attendance policy, I just don't see much point of them being there if they aren't going to participate. I'd rather see fewer black zoom boxes in that case.
I do call on them, and my standard thing to do is that if they don't know the answer, they get to call on a classmate to answer it .. that usually engages them (again this class isn't really responding).
Even if I do a short poll, like who thinks something is a good idea, who thinks it's a bad idea, I'll get maybe 20% of the class indicate anything at all, the 80% won't participate. They can't even muster a response to "good morning" :-/
I have been using Breakout rooms from time to time for solving problems collaboratively, I'll have to think if there's anything I can do to tweak this. Again, most of this works well with my other classes.
Quote from: dr_evil on October 26, 2021, 12:42:21 PM
I've had similar problems - no one turns on the camera, almost no one greets anyone when we start, few people interacting with the material at all. I've had some luck with embedding questions as multiple choice Zoom polls instead of asking for answers more directly. I still get a significant number that won't answer, but the response is better and I get some idea of where they're at. I've also noticed fewer people that don't log off after class finishes (the ones I suspect login and then disappear to game or sleep). I just have a generic poll set up, so that if needed, I can make something up as it occurs. Clear the results and re-use as needed.
I still haven't had much luck getting people to interact in breakout rooms though.
Ok, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is experiencing some of this. Yes, black boxes (ie students w/o cameras on) often will not respond when I call on them - I suspect they aren't even there most of the time. Hence, my decision to now retire my required attendance policy for this class, no point having them there if they don't want to be.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take another look at Zoom polls, in the past when I have used them they seemed somewhat cumbersome to set up and use (esp ad-hoc) but perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly.
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 12:48:00 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take another look at Zoom polls, in the past when I have used them they seemed somewhat cumbersome to set up and use (esp ad-hoc) but perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly.
Polls can be annoying, but my single question poll is "Answer the question on the slide. Select A, B, C, or D." The question is written on the slide, but I can also write one out on the Zoom whiteboard. Keeping it generic and re-using the same poll makes it much easier to manage.
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 10:45:47 AM
When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.
My breakout rooms became much more participatory when I gave the students a shared document to work on. For example, if I plan to have 5 breakout rooms, I prepare a Google slides document with 5 slides, each of which had the same matching exercise (e.g., drag the labels in column B so they correctly describe the graphs in column A). I paste the link in the Zoom chat. Breakout room 1 goes to slide 1, breakout room 2 to slide 2, etc. I can monitor their progress while they work, write small comments in the slide to address minor issues, and pop into the breakout rooms where they're really confused or making no progress. If the task won't fit on a single slide, you can make a separate shared document for each group. As long as you have the links in a text file ready to paste into the chat, it's not that much more complicated.
Quote from: dr_evil on October 26, 2021, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 12:48:00 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take another look at Zoom polls, in the past when I have used them they seemed somewhat cumbersome to set up and use (esp ad-hoc) but perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly.
Polls can be annoying, but my single question poll is "Answer the question on the slide. Select A, B, C, or D." The question is written on the slide, but I can also write one out on the Zoom whiteboard. Keeping it generic and re-using the same poll makes it much easier to manage.
Ah, excellent suggestion, thanks, yes, that'll make it much easier to reuse the same ready poll.
I'd encourage any behavior that is increasing their participation. They can speak or type or use a shared document. Unless you specify that they MUST have their cameras on to earn participation credit, they won't turn them on - could be bad internet, shy student, not in a private location, etc. Maybe next time, but it's probably too late for this cohort.
Give them specific tasks in their breakout room & a shared space to write/draw/diagram. Also, make it clear that you expect each room to report back to the class.
I'd send an apology email saying you're sorry to have ended class in that way, you are frustrated, you want to know how they would like to interact with each other & with you (more polls? more time in small groups? more time as a large group? etc.).
Good luck
Quote from: Liquidambar on October 26, 2021, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 10:45:47 AM
When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.
My breakout rooms became much more participatory when I gave the students a shared document to work on. For example, if I plan to have 5 breakout rooms, I prepare a Google slides document with 5 slides, each of which had the same matching exercise (e.g., drag the labels in column B so they correctly describe the graphs in column A). I paste the link in the Zoom chat. Breakout room 1 goes to slide 1, breakout room 2 to slide 2, etc. I can monitor their progress while they work, write small comments in the slide to address minor issues, and pop into the breakout rooms where they're really confused or making no progress. If the task won't fit on a single slide, you can make a separate shared document for each group. As long as you have the links in a text file ready to paste into the chat, it's not that much more complicated.
Aha! I was just trying to figure out something like this for my music theory kids...I wanted them to do a four-measure analysis separately first, then come together and show their work.
The breakout rooms setup worked, but the screen-share setup didn't let them see the single slide I'd created, now I see why.
Genius! Thanks!
M.
Quote from: Liquidambar on October 26, 2021, 01:01:56 PM
Quote from: old_school on October 26, 2021, 10:45:47 AM
When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.
My breakout rooms became much more participatory when I gave the students a shared document to work on. For example, if I plan to have 5 breakout rooms, I prepare a Google slides document with 5 slides, each of which had the same matching exercise (e.g., drag the labels in column B so they correctly describe the graphs in column A). I paste the link in the Zoom chat. Breakout room 1 goes to slide 1, breakout room 2 to slide 2, etc. I can monitor their progress while they work, write small comments in the slide to address minor issues, and pop into the breakout rooms where they're really confused or making no progress. If the task won't fit on a single slide, you can make a separate shared document for each group. As long as you have the links in a text file ready to paste into the chat, it's not that much more complicated.
Thank you for sharing this idea, I will try to see if I can incorporate this into my lessons moving forward. That may improve things with the breakout rooms.
I have called them by name to have them answer questions. I tell them to reply by voice, but if their microphone is not working today (that excuse works once), I tell them to respond in the chat function. (I then email them to get their problem fixed, or buy an external camera/microphone).
IF they do not answer, I boot them from the class. (WebEx has a feature that allows you to expel people). If you have the settings so that they have to ask to be allowed back in the meeting, they may get the hint!
Send an email after the class asking them why they were expelled? (Why they didnt respond).
Rather than ending the class early, expel the deadwood and participate with the ones that want to participate. This works best, of course, if you are tenured and are less worried about student evaluations. If evaluations are important, then start to ask advice from your chair and perhaps even ask for a faculty mentor to help you. (It may help with the class, but it will certainly be a back up to show that YOU at least TRIED to address the problem).
Finally, Bonus POINTS can be offered (BRIBE THEM)!
Next class, go about business as usual. Then at the END of class, list the ones that participated and announce that THOSE students earned a token number of points (like 2 or 3) to be added to their final exam score . Try that a few times and ONCE the participation is to your level of satisfaction, you can reduce the points to the top five students, say.
Quote from: clean on October 26, 2021, 02:46:41 PM
Rather than ending the class early, expel the deadwood and participate with the ones that want to participate. This works best, of course, if you are tenured and are less worried about student evaluations.
Finally, Bonus POINTS can be offered (BRIBE THEM)!
Next class, go about business as usual. Then at the END of class, list the ones that participated and announce that THOSE students earned a token number of points (like 2 or 3) to be added to their final exam score . Try that a few times and ONCE the participation is to your level of satisfaction, you can reduce the points to the top five students, say.
I appreciate the suggestions, good additions to my toolbox of techniques to try.
For the temporary ZOOM classes, I did not even attempt to go for active engagement. Instead, I focused on 100% pure lecture.
The ZOOM students do not seem to mind this. On the contrary, I've been getting positive comments like "thanks for not making me talk".
I am now having an existential moment whereas I'm doubting whether or no I've been wasting my time over the last 15+ years optimizing my classroom for active learning.
Quote from: Aster on October 26, 2021, 05:37:50 PM
For the temporary ZOOM classes, I did not even attempt to go for active engagement. Instead, I focused on 100% pure lecture.
The ZOOM students do not seem to mind this. On the contrary, I've been getting positive comments like "thanks for not making me talk".
I am now having an existential moment whereas I'm doubting whether or no I've been wasting my time over the last 15+ years optimizing my classroom for active learning.
What students want and what's good for learning are often two very different things.
Quote from: Aster on October 26, 2021, 05:37:50 PM
For the temporary ZOOM classes, I did not even attempt to go for active engagement. Instead, I focused on 100% pure lecture.
The ZOOM students do not seem to mind this. On the contrary, I've been getting positive comments like "thanks for not making me talk".
I am now having an existential moment whereas I'm doubting whether or no I've been wasting my time over the last 15+ years optimizing my classroom for active learning.
Interesting.
Thanks for sharing this.
I have a few who talk my ear off, and others who I never hear from. So it's really hard to balance the class participation.
Zoom is a lousy way to teach and engage students. Anyone who claims their classes are going better is lying. Prove me wrong.
I get that Zoom classes are challenging, and hopefully they will go away soon. That said, some things seem to be apparent in the OP's question:
1) don't make their failure to say 'good morning' a hill to die on. It is perhaps rude, though kids today probably do not do that, and in fairness most hs teachers will not insist on being greeted like that by students every class period.
that said
2) wrt undergrad student engagement, Zoom or otherwise, it does appear to me that this sort of behavior is much much different from what would have been normative when Gen Xers, let alone Boomers, were undergrads. There was still more respect for elders, and authority figures, then, and, like it or not, we got vastly better parenting, taken as a whole, than the average Gen Zer has gotten.
Yeah, you just can't expect Zoom to emulate the experience of a classroom. It's a whole different animal. For instance, in a classroom, you can come in, look specifically at some students, and say "Good morning!" They make eye contact, they respond. On Zoom, you're not making noticeable eye contact with anybody, even people with their cameras on. They have to unmute themselves to answer. And one annoying thing about the system is that even if six students are trying to say 'Good morning" at the same time, only one student's sound will come through. Zoom doesn't allow people to talk simultaneously. Students know this and it makes them shy about volunteering. You basically can't expect anyone to speak on Zoom without first being acknowledged, i.e. they raise their hand, you call on them, they speak. Zoom simply does not work for a casual exchange of "Good morning"s.
The trick to breakout rooms is to give them a task that is a) interesting, b) a manageable size, c) their responsibility to report on. Giving them something for which you already know the answer, or which other groups are also working on, is probably not going to succeed. In a language class, I had a set of riddles in our target language, and I gave each breakout room (ideally 2 students, maximum 3) their own riddle to translate and solve, and set them at it. Or in a history class, you could give them each a scandal and have them decide as a pair whether to vote that it was caused by A or by B. "Was Richard II responsible for murdering the princes in the Tower? You decide!"
I've taught several classes by Zoom, and only 1-2 out of 40 kept their cameras off. When I asked them to turn them on for some reason, it turned out to be because they were (in one case) taking a bus to their job, or (in another case) delivering a lamb, I mean helping a sheep give birth. I think the fact that I kept talking directly to specific students helped keep them on their toes and cameras on. I know that initially there was all that concern about "Some students live in poor conditions and shouldn't have to expose them by leaving cameras on." But once virtual backgrounds were developed, that became less of a concern. I am impatient with cameras off, unless the person is having connectivity problems. And somehow that has translated into people leaving them on.
Quote from: kaysixteen on October 26, 2021, 08:15:04 PM
I get that Zoom classes are challenging, and hopefully they will go away soon. That said, some things seem to be apparent in the OP's question:
1) don't make their failure to say 'good morning' a hill to die on. It is perhaps rude, though kids today probably do not do that, and in fairness most hs teachers will not insist on being greeted like that by students every class period.
I really am not, I must have written this poorly, or perhaps the fact that it was the first example I gave. I simply mentioned it only to demonstrate the lack of even this minimal level of engagement/participation (which also serves their own interest in letting me know they can hear me). How much effort, intellectual or otherwise, does it take? Honestly, I could just start the lecture with "can you hear me?" - I'd get the same (lack) of response.
Quote
that said
2) wrt undergrad student engagement, Zoom or otherwise, it does appear to me that this sort of behavior is much much different from what would have been normative when Gen Xers, let alone Boomers, were undergrads. There was still more respect for elders, and authority figures, then, and, like it or not, we got vastly better parenting, taken as a whole, than the average Gen Zer has gotten.
I would agree with you on this, there definitely is a difference.
Thank you for your post.
Quote from: the_geneticist on October 26, 2021, 01:17:51 PM
I'd encourage any behavior that is increasing their participation. They can speak or type or use a shared document. Unless you specify that they MUST have their cameras on to earn participation credit, they won't turn them on - could be bad internet, shy student, not in a private location, etc. Maybe next time, but it's probably too late for this cohort.
Give them specific tasks in their breakout room & a shared space to write/draw/diagram. Also, make it clear that you expect each room to report back to the class.
I'd send an apology email saying you're sorry to have ended class in that way, you are frustrated, you want to know how they would like to interact with each other & with you (more polls? more time in small groups? more time as a large group? etc.).
Good luck
Thanks, I strongly encourage them to use their cameras, though I know some may have legitimate reasons why they can't/won't which is why I don't enforce it but make it clear that it helps them more than me (it keeps them more accountable) and it at least emulates/fosters a sense of community in an online environment by being able to see each other. At the end it's up to them. I do ask they turn on their cameras (at least briefly) during exams for attendance purposes, but even that doesn't result in 100% compliance (can't do anything about it, so I won't worry about it).
All my usual techniques to encourage participation that have worked reasonably well in my other classes have failed here, so I am going to switch to just lecturing and not worry about their level of understanding as much (the only reason I regularly would ask if they had questions, or call on them with specific questions).
I only have so much energy I can invest in them. I will adjust my expectations, in terms of their participation, though not in what we are covering/learning in this class. If they want to ask questions, fine, but I'm done trying to coax anything out of them in this class.
Quote from: ciao_yall on October 26, 2021, 07:53:34 PM
I have a few who talk my ear off, and others who I never hear from. So it's really hard to balance the class participation.
Zoom is a lousy way to teach and engage students. Anyone who claims their classes are going better is lying. Prove me wrong.
I hate teaching over Zoom. The few perks are: me not needing to wear shoes, students like when my cats interrupt class.
The level of student-student, student-instructor, and student-content interaction is so low. Even with all of the tips and tricks it's just nowhere what you get in a live classroom.
I'm impressed with any student that made it through the past 1.5 years and didn't give up.
I'm sorry you're having such a bad time with this class. The novelty of Zoom is over and now it's just a slog. My advice depends on what kind of school and students you have, and isn't just for you, but also for anyone else who consults this thread. If students are on-campus at a well-funded school, so that they have strong internet connections and no distractions, then they should be able to turn on their cameras and participate, at least by posting questions, comments, and jokes in the chat. I've found that it works well to lecture for 3-5 minutes, break to catch up with the chat and answer questions, return to lecture, rinse and repeat. Some are happy to type, even if they don't want to speak.
OTOH, you might have students who are trying to listen to lectures via their phone while working a full shift as a delivery driver, or in food service or some other retail position. They can't really turn on the camera or speak aloud, and may not even be able to text a question or comment. In such a case, consider that they really are prioritizing their education: they are trying to keep up, as best they can, through listening. They may be better able to "participate" via asynchronous methods, such as discussion boards. You could ask everyone to post a sentence with the most important or interesting thing they learned from lecture, within 24 hours, something like that.
In your position, and this is a me thing, I'd apologize in person, on camera, and say something to the effect that we're all still very stressed by the pandemic, and Zoom, and that this experience gives you more insight into what they're going through, so while you hope they'll understand your position, you'll try to be more understanding of theirs, going forward. The ideas about midterm evals, polls, and other ways to participate without having to speak are all great (I really liked the standard poll ABCD answer with questions on a slide---thanks for that!). I hope you'll be able to end the semester feeling better about the class than you do now.
I've also had some Zoom classes that were low on verbal engagement, but I found that the students were willing to actively use the chat to contribute. You could try a waterfall - ask them all to type an answer to some question in the chat but not hit submit for a couple of minutes. Then have everyone submit together and you get a string of answers to the question that you can follow up on - "student X, you wrote yackity yack, can you tell us a little more about that?"
I also use mentimeter to make interactive slides that I can screenshare to get conversations going and students can post anonymous Q&A options too.
Quoteyou could try a waterfall - ask them all to type an answer to some question in the chat but not hit submit for a couple of minutes. Then have everyone submit together and you get a string of answers to the question that you can follow up on - "student X, you wrote yackity yack, can you tell us a little more about that?"
That's a really good idea! Thank you. I've tried something similar using a whiteboard, but the responses are anonymous, so it doesn't lend itself to follow up unless the student volunteers.
Today my students were quiet so I told a few war stories, then ended class a bit early. At least in class I can come up with a group discussion topic to get them in small groups and use up some time... but with Zoom? Forget it.
Part of the problem is that we are in week 11 out of 18, or the "7th inning stretch." They are a bit bored with the class, resting up from the midterm, but not anxious yet about the final.
So, OP: How did the next class go?
(Or have you had it yet?)
M.
Levity: there have been some stories of students who had their video function turned on and apparently didn't realize it. One was in bed, asleep, the whole time.
Lots of teachers have gone/are going through similar things. Good luck. You'll figure it out.
Quote from: mahagonny on October 27, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
Levity: there have been some stories of students who had their video function turned on and apparently didn't realize it. One was in bed, asleep, the whole time.
Lots of teachers have gone/are going through similar things. Good luck. You'll figure it out.
I've seen students in bed, students in their underwear, students driving in their cars, etc., on Zoom.
Very glad to be done with Zoom teaching and back in the classroom, although I suppose I might not be so thrilled if I get COVID from one of my students.
Quote from: Hegemony on October 26, 2021, 09:30:52 PM
Yeah, you just can't expect Zoom to emulate the experience of a classroom. It's a whole different animal.
All good points, and helpful examples. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you all for taking the time to share your suggestions/tips and approaches (and words of support) - all much appreciated.
For the immediate future, while I sort through various options (incl. new ones shared with me here), I will just adjust my expectations in terms of student engagement in this particular class, though not academics. I.e., while perhaps not ideal, I will mostly straight lecture until I figure out what works with this group. I did this yesterday and it went well (from my perspective). Obviously, if anyone would have asked a question, I would have happily entertained it, but I stopped periodically asking if anyone has any questions or calling on anyone, and thereby avoided the frustration of not getting any responses. If they want to learn this way, fine, otherwise they will have to be a bit more proactive, I just don't have the energy to keep coaxing them to act in their own best interest. And who knows, perhaps this is a better way for them to learn, if only this particular group.
My other two classes, everything proceeded quite smoothly with my very interactive Q&A approach which has served me well for many years with all of my classes, but this one. Students there have no problems participating in their own learning and it makes it much more of a collaborative learning environment which I prefer.