CHE story (https://www.chronicle.com/article/oberlins-aid-to-student-protesters-led-to-a-32-million-judgment-the-college-just-lost-its-appeal?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_4001349_nl_Academe-Today_date_20220404&cid=at&source=&sourceid=&cid2=gen_login_refresh)
This is about the case where the college endorsed a student protest calling a local business racist, and administrators participated in leafleting.
Quote from: bacardiandlime on April 04, 2022, 02:14:28 AM
CHE story (https://www.chronicle.com/article/oberlins-aid-to-student-protesters-led-to-a-32-million-judgment-the-college-just-lost-its-appeal?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_4001349_nl_Academe-Today_date_20220404&cid=at&source=&sourceid=&cid2=gen_login_refresh)
This is about the case where the college endorsed a student protest calling a local business racist, and administrators participated in leafleting.
Virtue [signalling] is it's own reward.
Ordinarily college admins are bending-over-backwards careful to avoid getting pulled into stuff like this. This shows why. I guess Oberlin had to be different.
Quote from: apl68 on April 04, 2022, 07:32:45 AM
Ordinarily college admins are bending-over-backwards careful to avoid getting pulled into stuff like this. This shows why. I guess Oberlin had to be different.
One thing I really hate is leaders of
any political stripe launching an investigation into something and indicating
as they launch it essentially what it is supposed to find. It undermines the whole process and confirms the mob's idea that there's no more to the story than the "facts" that are already widely publicized.
(At least if you don't bother with an investigation, then you're not even
pretending to try to understand the situation better.)
'Virtue signaling' suggests superficial behavior inconsistent with an entity's usual posture..
In this case, for a school that was among the first to admit blacks in 1835, and 5o graduate its first black student shortly thereafter, I'd say they're behaving more consistently with a longstanding inclusive tradition than anything else.
M. (Raised in Ohio, and have been to the campus, where friends attended)
Quote from: mamselle on April 04, 2022, 08:39:07 AM
'Virtue signaling' suggests superficial behavior inconsistent with an entity's usual posture..
In this case, for a school that was among the first to admit blacks in 1835, and 5o graduate its first black student shortly thereafter, I'd say they're behaving more consistently with a longstanding inclusive tradition than anything else.
M. (Raised in Ohio, and have been to the campus, where friends attended)
From the court case:
Quote
According to the testimony admitted at the hearing, three African
American Oberlin students (one male and two females) were in the bakery while young Allyn wasworking. Young Allyn later informed the police that he confronted the male student because he believed that the student was shoplifting wine and using a fake I.D. to purchase more alcohol; that the male student fled the store; and young Allyn chased him across the street to apprehend and detain him for the police to arrive. When a police officer responded to the scene, he observed that
the two female students also became involved in the physical altercation between young Allyn and the male student. The police arrested the three students. The students eventually entered guilty pleas and were convicted for their roles in the incident.
and later
Quote
Because of the incident at the bakery, and in a claimed effort to appease the angry
students, Raimondo testified that she instructed a subordinate to contact the college's supplier of
food for its dining halls, Bon Appetit, and tell them to stop or halt supplying the college with food
from the bakery.
So does Oberlin's longstanding inclusive tradition include sanctioning local businesses for reporting criminal behaviour committed by students?
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 04, 2022, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 04, 2022, 08:39:07 AM
'Virtue signaling' suggests superficial behavior inconsistent with an entity's usual posture..
In this case, for a school that was among the first to admit blacks in 1835, and 5o graduate its first black student shortly thereafter, I'd say they're behaving more consistently with a longstanding inclusive tradition than anything else.
M. (Raised in Ohio, and have been to the campus, where friends attended)
From the court case:
Quote
According to the testimony admitted at the hearing, three African
American Oberlin students (one male and two females) were in the bakery while young Allyn wasworking. Young Allyn later informed the police that he confronted the male student because he believed that the student was shoplifting wine and using a fake I.D. to purchase more alcohol; that the male student fled the store; and young Allyn chased him across the street to apprehend and detain him for the police to arrive. When a police officer responded to the scene, he observed that
the two female students also became involved in the physical altercation between young Allyn and the male student. The police arrested the three students. The students eventually entered guilty pleas and were convicted for their roles in the incident.
and later
Quote
Because of the incident at the bakery, and in a claimed effort to appease the angry
students, Raimondo testified that she instructed a subordinate to contact the college's supplier of
food for its dining halls, Bon Appetit, and tell them to stop or halt supplying the college with food
from the bakery.
So does Oberlin's longstanding inclusive tradition include sanctioning local businesses for reporting criminal behaviour committed by students?
Why rest on your laurels?
Personally, I'm enjoying the schadenfreude.
Although I'm sure the administrator in question felt that the action was in keeping with Oberlin's finest traditions, this piece of activism does appear to have been very ill-chosen, as it appears to have taken the form of a dogpile persecution of a business that seems at worst to have been guilty of not handling a shoplifting issue very well. Displays of righteous indignation that target others need to be very carefully considered and proportionate, or they're not going to help anything.
Quote from: apl68 on April 04, 2022, 01:32:45 PM
Although I'm sure the administrator in question felt that the action was in keeping with Oberlin's finest traditions, this piece of activism does appear to have been very ill-chosen, as it appears to have taken the form of a dogpile persecution of a business that seems at worst to have been guilty of not handling a shoplifting issue very well.
Unless I missed something, the complaints were all about "racial profiling" (rather than some sort of violent detainment) and since the students confessed, unless someone wants to argue the confessions were
coerced, then I can't see how the students were any sort of "victims" of
anything.
(And even on the racial profiling accusation, since Gibson's has been there for 130 years, I'd imagine there have been a lot of non-white Oberlin students who have gone there overs the years whose experience would illustrate whatever pattern of treatment exists. Somehow I'd be surprised if most black students who go into the place get accused of shoplifting.)
You do realize there was the complaint filed, the students' claims, then the leafleting, then some time later the pleas?
mamselle is correct that supporting the students was consist with Oberlin's mission and values. What the administrator did was silly, and I'm actually a little stunned the college didn't succeed in arguing that the admin acted as an individual, rather than as an agent of the college.
Don't get me wrong. I think that is the correct ruling. I'm still surprised.
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 04, 2022, 02:54:20 PM
You do realize there was the complaint filed, the students' claims, then the leafleting, then some time later the pleas?
This is an example of what I described earlier of taking a position LONG BEFORE any investigation is complete, rather than
waiting until all the facts of the case have been established.
For any academic, who claims to care something about facts and evidence, it's unprofessional and idiotic.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 04, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 04, 2022, 02:54:20 PM
You do realize there was the complaint filed, the students' claims, then the leafleting, then some time later the pleas?
This is an example of what I described earlier of taking a position LONG BEFORE any investigation is complete, rather than waiting until all the facts of the case have been established.
For any academic, who claims to care something about facts and evidence, it's unprofessional and idiotic.
This particular kind of academic culture (Oberlin) doesn't really have a choice, if (likely) they have already committed themselves to the position that white-against-black racism is lurking everywhere and routinely denied. They aren't even repentant after having it drummed into their thick skulls (to the tune of $32 million) that they have hurt innocent people. I rate it something worse than unprofessional and idiotic.
Calling people racist when you have no idea what you're talking about is irresponsible and mean. Doing it because it's in style is even worse.
And a belated thank you to writing prof. As one character said in "The Green Mile" I wish I'd met you somewhere else.
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 04, 2022, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: jimbogumbo on April 04, 2022, 02:54:20 PM
You do realize there was the complaint filed, the students' claims, then the leafleting, then some time later the pleas?
This is an example of what I described earlier of taking a position LONG BEFORE any investigation is complete, rather than waiting until all the facts of the case have been established.
For any academic, who claims to care something about facts and evidence, it's unprofessional and idiotic.
Yes. Oberlin's students were in this case guilty of the worst sort of excessive rush to judgement, and the grown-ups at the college who should have been exercising a moderating influence were egging them on instead.
Oberlin has become a default synonym for "insane left." Tucker Carlson has been using them as the default example (i.e., three trust funders at Oberlin would like this policy, etc) but I also noticed them used yesterday on the leftist Young Turks internet news show. The term "birthing people" was discussed since used in a tweet from a health policy maker in NY and the host was making the point that this type of term turns a lot of people off who would otherwise be allies. He said something to the effect of "this isn't a real term but something someone at Oberlin made this up three seconds ago." When you have both of those people who think you are crazy at the same time, that doesn't leave of a lot of people outside the campus bubble who are supporters.
So, in an interesting twist, some here would vilify a school with an otherwise good track record in music and the humanities because its social politics don't match theirs?
Very interesting.
M.
Quote from: mamselle on April 05, 2022, 11:35:21 AM
So, in an interesting twist, some here would vilify a school with an otherwise good track record in music and the humanities because its social politics don't match theirs?
It's more that the excesses of political activism by students have been condoned or even encouraged by faculty and administrators, who in doing so shirked their responsibility to help students think more deeply about complex issues.
Messages that have been implicitly presented:
- The most instant, visceral response to an event is the most important one.
- Collecting evidence and reserving judgement are ways of avoiding a proper response, which is definitive and vocal.
- Trying to detach one's feelings from analysis of a problem undermines one's ability to respond intensely and unequivocally.
Quit your pathetic sobbing and pay up, maestros. And if you haven't wised up yet, there's more trouble coming.
Quote from: mamselle on April 05, 2022, 11:35:21 AM
So, in an interesting twist, some here would vilify a school with an otherwise good track record in music and the humanities because its social politics don't match theirs?
Very interesting.
M.
con't
Quote from: marshwiggle on April 05, 2022, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: mamselle on April 05, 2022, 11:35:21 AM
So, in an interesting twist, some here would vilify a school with an otherwise good track record in music and the humanities because its social politics don't match theirs?
It's more that the excesses of political activism by students have been condoned or even encouraged by faculty and administrators, who in doing so shirked their responsibility to help students think more deeply about complex issues.
Messages that have been implicitly presented:
- The most instant, visceral response to an event is the most important one.
- Collecting evidence and reserving judgement are ways of avoiding a proper response, which is definitive and vocal.
- Trying to detach one's feelings from analysis of a problem undermines one's ability to respond intensely and unequivocally.
Marshyprof:
Why are we pretending that the emphasis on politically far-left viewpoints in the college course offerings is not the source of these excesses of political activism exhibited by their students? No need to soft-pedal your point IMO.
Ok, I;m an Oberlin alum (1978) and have followed this story pretty closely. I was not surprised by either the original decision nor the denial of the appeal. When the trial first began, I wrote to the President urging the college to find a settlement with the owners of the bakery. I never got a response back.
I agree with Marshwiggle's take. I think the problem with the bakery incident is much more due to the former Dean of Student Affairs. In fact, emails indicate a number of faculty and staff after the incident urged her to be cautious about the student's demonstrations. She went all-in with the students. Although the faculty is very liberal, I don't think they are to blame for the bakery trial / result. My Oberlin experience is a long, long time ago but the faculty I had then (still very liberal) all demanded what Marshwiggle wrote, 'examine as much evidence as you can before forming an opinion', 'think deeply about problems - don't just trust your gut', 'expect problems to have difficult (not easy) answers'.
I hope the college can put this episode behind them.
Quote from: Volhiker78 on April 06, 2022, 09:04:31 AM
Ok, I;m an Oberlin alum (1978) and have followed this story pretty closely. I was not surprised by either the original decision nor the denial of the appeal. When the trial first began, I wrote to the President urging the college to find a settlement with the owners of the bakery. I never got a response back.
I agree with Marshwiggle's take. I think the problem with the bakery incident is much more due to the former Dean of Student Affairs. In fact, emails indicate a number of faculty and staff after the incident urged her to be cautious about the student's demonstrations. She went all-in with the students. Although the faculty is very liberal, I don't think they are to blame for the bakery trial / result. My Oberlin experience is a long, long time ago but the faculty I had then (still very liberal) all demanded what Marshwiggle wrote, 'examine as much evidence as you can before forming an opinion', 'think deeply about problems - don't just trust your gut', 'expect problems to have difficult (not easy) answers'.
I hope the college can put this episode behind them.
I'd like to agree with you since I am a big classical music fan. Problems: (1) the college still hasn't apologized, despite committing a horrible wrong against the community. (2) the faculty there, and others like them, are part of the reason hate crime hoaxes get believed so often.
update:
https://news.yahoo.com/ohio-supreme-court-refuses-hear-011109506.html
Start writing checks, race baiter.