How much does the LMS determine how you design the course?

[Caracal]

As others have noted in previous threads, the grades calculation tools in most (all?) LMS are vastly inferior to what can be done in a spreadsheet, so it tends to eliminate all kinds of creative options for determining a final grade.

Grading really encapsulates the tradeoffs with the CMS. On one hand, I find it tremendously helpful. I don't have to worry about organization of assignments, everything just comes in. In the case of automated quizzes, I don't even have to grade them. However, I really hate the way the CMS shapes student ideas about grades. I'm reminded of this every time a student writes me because their grade "suddenly" went down from a 100 to 82 and they don't understand. The grade went down because we had our first major assignment-completing some quizzes and response papers didn't actually mean you were getting an A.

For a while I tried not using the grading function. However, students are so used to it, that I got all of these comments on my evals about how there was no way to know how you were doing in the course. There's a significant number of students who really don't get that the CMS isn't the only way you could ever figure out your grade.

I use the "ungraded items count as zero" option, so their "Final grade" starts at zero and increases as the term goes on. Then I can tell them "That's the grade you'd get if you stopped now and didn't hand anything else in." The idea that it's the lowest their grade can possibly be is easier to sell. Especially when it's over 50% before they start their final projects.

Huh. This doesn't result in complaints about how they never know what their grade is? Our LMS has a function that lets students input future grades and see what their grade will be, so I guess they could use that if they want to get a sense of how their grades might translate. In theory, I could just tell students that if they want to see what their current grades would translate to with similar performance, they can use that.

I like the idea, but I'm a little wary. I've found that students often get grumpy when things with my LMS look different than what they are used to and that it's often not worth it...

[marshwiggle]

I use the "ungraded items count as zero" option, so their "Final grade" starts at zero and increases as the term goes on. Then I can tell them "That's the grade you'd get if you stopped now and didn't hand anything else in." The idea that it's the lowest their grade can possibly be is easier to sell. Especially when it's over 50% before they start their final projects.

Huh. This doesn't result in complaints about how they never know what their grade is?

Well, it actually tells them exactly what their grade is right now. It's much better than after writing the first quiz on the syllabus they see their grade is 100%, and so it is pretty much guaranteed to drop below that sooner or later. Also, people who haven't handed all kinds of things in to the point that they can't mathematically pass may still see their grade as decent if ungraded items are ignored, leading to the kind of confusion people have talked about here. (I suppose if there were an option that made not-handed-in items count as zero after their due dates it would be a bit more informative, but I haven't seen such a feature.)

Our LMS has a function that lets students input future grades and see what their grade will be, so I guess they could use that if they want to get a sense of how their grades might translate. In theory, I could just tell students that if they want to see what their current grades would translate to with similar performance, they can use that.

I like the idea, but I'm a little wary. I've found that students often get grumpy when things with my LMS look different than what they are used to and that it's often not worth it...

My experience is that it seems very few people look at it, so I don't even get one question a term about it.

[downer]

Thanks for pointing out the "To Do" list. It is useful. Maybe I will allow students do submit late work after all.

Funny story: when I asked the IT staff on a Canvas training session whether Canvas had an equivalent of the "Needs Grading" section on Blackboard, they said no. So I wasn't looking for it.

That will teach me not to waste my time on training sessions.

[Chemystery]

No, but the syllabus doesn't actually spell out the things I do by hand.  I do occasionally get grade grubbers who have seen their grade in the LMS but have not checked the official grade posting.  If, in fact their grade did go up, I just respond by telling them to check the official grade.

[Caracal]

(I suppose if there were an option that made not-handed-in items count as zero after their due dates it would be a bit more informative, but I haven't seen such a feature.)




My experience is that it seems very few people look at it, so I don't even get one question a term about it.

Yeah, you can do that on Canvas. I don't usually turn it on because it messes things up if I grant students extensions. However, it is easy enough to just manually enter in zeros on things that students haven't turned in.

My anecdotal impression is that the expectations about the LMS vary enormously across institutions. I know people who don't post grades at all on it and it doesn't matter much to their students. When I did that for a year at my institution, students really thought I was hiding their grades from them because I just handed back exams and other assignments. I

My guess is that the more students think of their school as a bureaucracy they have to navigate, the more likely they are to think that any deviation from the norm is a sign that they are going to be railroaded.

[mamselle]

My guess is that the more students think of their school as a bureaucracy they have to navigate, the more likely they are to think that any deviation from the norm is a sign that they are going to be railroaded.

Very insightful. I think that's probably true.

I've come to be amazed at how my private music students (who receive no "grade" beyond the "OK" on their pieces when they've learned to play them well) will automatically try to bargain for reduced workloads over the tiniest things--reflexively, I've come to think.

They're capable--if possibly overworked, they all do several extracurricular studies besides music--and mostly confident, but they'll try to get me to let them do one octave instead of two for their speed drills and scales, when in fact they need to play both octaves because they need to learn the cross-over fingerings for going to the second octave.

It's almost like they've just come to see it as their responsibility to reduce their own tasks, since no-one else is going to do it for them.

I'll sometimes, teasingly, say in reply, "OH, NO, I mean, THANK YOU, Mamselle, for giving me this extra work that will make my playing better!" just to get them to realize that it's meant to help them, not just overburden them.

M.

[kiana]

That's an interesting idea. Do you ever have keen students who realize their grade should be A- instead of B+ as in the LMS and complain about it? (I'm assuming that in the syllabus or somewhere the details explain everything that would be involved in determining the correct final grade.)

I've never had this complaint, but usually the creative options are things like the final exam weighing more heavily or replacing/averaging with earlier tests if and only if it will raise the cumulative grade.

[marshwiggle]

That's an interesting idea. Do you ever have keen students who realize their grade should be A- instead of B+ as in the LMS and complain about it? (I'm assuming that in the syllabus or somewhere the details explain everything that would be involved in determining the correct final grade.)

I've never had this complaint, but usually the creative options are things like the final exam weighing more heavily or replacing/averaging with earlier tests if and only if it will raise the cumulative grade.

So like Chemystery, as long as the changes only raise their grade it doesn't cause a problem. I'm going to try that next term, since it sounds like the easiest solution.

[Caracal]

My guess is that the more students think of their school as a bureaucracy they have to navigate, the more likely they are to think that any deviation from the norm is a sign that they are going to be railroaded.

Very insightful. I think that's probably true.

I've come to be amazed at how my private music students (who receive no "grade" beyond the "OK" on their pieces when they've learned to play them well) will automatically try to bargain for reduced workloads over the tiniest things--reflexively, I've come to think.

They're capable--if possibly overworked, they all do several extracurricular studies besides music--and mostly confident, but they'll try to get me to let them do one octave instead of two for their speed drills and scales, when in fact they need to play both octaves because they need to learn the cross-over fingerings for going to the second octave.

It's almost like they've just come to see it as their responsibility to reduce their own tasks, since no-one else is going to do it for them.

I'll sometimes, teasingly, say in reply, "OH, NO, I mean, THANK YOU, Mamselle, for giving me this extra work that will make my playing better!" just to get them to realize that it's meant to help them, not just overburden them.

M.

Yeah, it seems like an inability to understand how to navigate professional relationships with power imbalances. Presumably, if a student was to tell you they were having a really busy week and it would be hard to carve out as much time as normal, you'd usually be happy to accommodate them.

Last semester, I completely messed up one student's grade. I just inputted something in the wrong column and it caused his final grade to be a full letter grade lower than it usually would. He sent me this bizarre email angrily demanding an "explanation." He knew the grade was wrong, that's why he emailed me, but he seemed to think that it must be the result of some sort of ill will and that I would be interested in defending my original grade even after he pointed out it.

It seemed to have never occurred to him that if he pointed out a major mistake, I'd obviously be mortified and anxious to fix it quickly.

[nonsensical]

I like the idea to count ungraded items as 0 and may adopt that for my lecture courses. It seems almost like something from the Jedi mind tricks thread.

The next time I teach my lecture course may be online, depending on what happens with COVID. I will likely use reading quizzes, which I have never done in person and which I wouldn't do if it wasn't straightforward on our LMS. But it seems pretty straightforward to set up and like a good way to help students keep up with readings, so I'm willing to give it a shot.

[kiana]

I like the idea to count ungraded items as 0 and may adopt that for my lecture courses. It seems almost like something from the Jedi mind tricks thread.

I enter zero immediately at the grade deadline -- since work is accepted late for an automatically calculated penalty, it ensures people see "Oh shit was that due?" right away.