NBC News: Exposing the College-is-for-Everyone "fantasy"

[marshwiggle]

Yes to the accountants working under the assumption that every seat in a given course costs the university the same, it looks like my university is subsidizing the box-checkers, but I'm not sure we actually are.  Possibly the box-checkers are consuming so little in university resources that they are subsidizing the serious students.

I don't know--judging from what I see on the "Teaching" threads, unengaged students seem to cost many teachers a huge amount of extra (and often futile) effort.  Also, a lot of what is often blamed on "administrative bloat" seems to involve various student services that try (again, often futiley) to get unengaged students pushed through the system.

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

[Mobius]

Yes to the accountants working under the assumption that every seat in a given course costs the university the same, it looks like my university is subsidizing the box-checkers, but I'm not sure we actually are.  Possibly the box-checkers are consuming so little in university resources that they are subsidizing the serious students.

I don't know--judging from what I see on the "Teaching" threads, unengaged students seem to cost many teachers a huge amount of extra (and often futile) effort.  Also, a lot of what is often blamed on "administrative bloat" seems to involve various student services that try (again, often futiley) to get unengaged students pushed through the system.

Depends on funding. Don't know how much TAs cost the university directly since some of it is paid through grants and work study funds.

[Hibush]

Yes to the accountants working under the assumption that every seat in a given course costs the university the same, it looks like my university is subsidizing the box-checkers, but I'm not sure we actually are.  Possibly the box-checkers are consuming so little in university resources that they are subsidizing the serious students.

I don't know--judging from what I see on the "Teaching" threads, unengaged students seem to cost many teachers a huge amount of extra (and often futile) effort.  Also, a lot of what is often blamed on "administrative bloat" seems to involve various student services that try (again, often futiley) to get unengaged students pushed through the system.

Depends on funding. Don't know how much TAs cost the university directly since some of it is paid through grants and work study funds.

Grad-student TAs are unlikely to be paid from grants. Grant-supported students should be on RAs.  Work-study is mostly for undergrads, at least at my place. Here, TAs are straight out of the instructional budget, allocated by the college to TA lines based in part on how much revenue a course generates.

[mleok]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

[Puget]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

In my experience it's bimodal. The top students take a lot of time and resources, but I'm happy to give them these-- these are the students wanting to do independent studies, honors theses, talk about grad school/careers (and then need letters) etc. Struggling students (I wouldn't call them slackers here-- more students with various mental health and other challenges) also take up a lot of time and resources (faculty time, but also tons of time from support staff of various kinds -- advisors, counseling center, etc.). Students in the middle cruse along without much bother.

[mleok]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

In my experience it's bimodal. The top students take a lot of time and resources, but I'm happy to give them these-- these are the students wanting to do independent studies, honors theses, talk about grad school/careers (and then need letters) etc. Struggling students (I wouldn't call them slackers here-- more students with various mental health and other challenges) also take up a lot of time and resources (faculty time, but also tons of time from support staff of various kinds -- advisors, counseling center, etc.). Students in the middle cruse along without much bother.

Fair enough, I am very selective about accepting undergraduates for independent studies and honors thesis students, and only accept those who have taken one of my graduate topics classes, but those that I do accept tend to be fun to work with. As for struggling students, I try to help those who are clearly making an effort, but I often find that those with various challenges are beyond the help I am able and willing to provide. In particular, I am not going to teach a personalized course for them, irrespective of how real their challenges are.

[marshwiggle]

As for struggling students, I try to help those who are clearly making an effort, but I often find that those with various challenges are beyond the help I am able and willing to provide. In particular, I am not going to teach a personalized course for them, irrespective of how real their challenges are.

And to be honest, many of these should be doing things like going part-time and taking only one or two courses. When they've started the same course twice and dropped halfway through, student services ought to be more proactive about helping them plan to succeed, rather than just trying to lobby instructors to cut them more slack.

[mleok]

As for struggling students, I try to help those who are clearly making an effort, but I often find that those with various challenges are beyond the help I am able and willing to provide. In particular, I am not going to teach a personalized course for them, irrespective of how real their challenges are.

And to be honest, many of these should be doing things like going part-time and taking only one or two courses. When they've started the same course twice and dropped halfway through, student services ought to be more proactive about helping them plan to succeed, rather than just trying to lobby instructors to cut them more slack.

Yes, I have a student who appears to have a full-time job, in addition to learning disabilities, and claims to be unable to attend sections which are in the evenings, or my office hours which are in the morning. He has been falling behind despite taking only two classes, and he was trying to get me to give him an incomplete. He was unhappy when I said he was disengaged with the class, and when I said he needed to be passing the class up to the last week of the quarter in order to be eligible for an incomplete.

I had another student who was a "student"-athlete, also with an 1.5 time accommodation, who demanded that I give him an extension because he was at an away game, and it turned out he was just playing the sport at the club level. Despite giving him numerous extensions, he failed to finish the assignment, nor did he attend my office hours to get the help he said he needed to complete the assignment.

At this point, my empathy for such nonsense is at an all time low. I'm glad I'll be teaching graduate topics classes for the rest of the academic year.

[apl68]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

In my experience it's bimodal. The top students take a lot of time and resources, but I'm happy to give them these-- these are the students wanting to do independent studies, honors theses, talk about grad school/careers (and then need letters) etc. Struggling students (I wouldn't call them slackers here-- more students with various mental health and other challenges) also take up a lot of time and resources (faculty time, but also tons of time from support staff of various kinds -- advisors, counseling center, etc.). Students in the middle cruse along without much bother.

So perhaps the middling students are the most economical?

[marshwiggle]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

In my experience it's bimodal. The top students take a lot of time and resources, but I'm happy to give them these-- these are the students wanting to do independent studies, honors theses, talk about grad school/careers (and then need letters) etc. Struggling students (I wouldn't call them slackers here-- more students with various mental health and other challenges) also take up a lot of time and resources (faculty time, but also tons of time from support staff of various kinds -- advisors, counseling center, etc.). Students in the middle cruse along without much bother.

So perhaps the middling students are the most economical?

In terms of grading, they're the most expensive. Students who hand nothing in, or do everything wrong, don't take much time. Students who get almost everything right, don't take much time. Ones who do some things wrong, or a lot of things imperfectly, take the most time.

TL;DR
0 and 100 are easy to assign.
The closer it is to 50, the more time it takes, since the possible range is the greatest.
 

[Wahoo Redux]

Yup. Also, TAs need to be hired and paid; even if a box-xhexker hands nothing in, the TA still gets paid.

They cost a lot. The cheapest students are the A students who follow instructions and do everything mostly right.

Indeed, the slackers are always the greatest drain, because they're not content to do no work and fail the class, they want to do as little work as possible while consuming an inordinate amount of my time with their efforts to wiggle out of work. In any case, as you say, we still have to assign TA and instructor positions based on the number of students enrolled.

In my experience it's bimodal. The top students take a lot of time and resources, but I'm happy to give them these-- these are the students wanting to do independent studies, honors theses, talk about grad school/careers (and then need letters) etc. Struggling students (I wouldn't call them slackers here-- more students with various mental health and other challenges) also take up a lot of time and resources (faculty time, but also tons of time from support staff of various kinds -- advisors, counseling center, etc.). Students in the middle cruse along without much bother.

So perhaps the middling students are the most economical?

In terms of grading, they're the most expensive. Students who hand nothing in, or do everything wrong, don't take much time. Students who get almost everything right, don't take much time. Ones who do some things wrong, or a lot of things imperfectly, take the most time.

TL;DR
0 and 100 are easy to assign.
The closer it is to 50, the more time it takes, since the possible range is the greatest.

Sometimes I find myself in agreement with Marshy.

Just finished a huge basket of grading.  Those that did not follow the fairly detailed assignment sheets were pretty easy to give a number to.  Those that just rocked it were even easier.  But that vast number in the B, and the couple Cs, sometimes took an hour to comment upon. 

[quasihumanist]

Box-checkers are different from struggling students.

Yes - the students who are struggling and trying hard take up a lot of time.

The students who aren't trying hard and are just trying to tick enough boxes to get a C?  Maybe it's worth spending a little time at the beginning of the semester letting them know they could learn something if they put in more effort, but then just give them their C and move on.  There's no point in spending more effort on them than they spend on themselves.

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TAs, et c - yes TAs are hired and paid by the student, but the amount of TA staffing assigned to a course also assumes a certain percentage of box-checkers.  If all the students were trying to learn, you'd suddenly find you didn't have enough TAs.