I think he is correct- it is existential for Publics

[jimbogumbo]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/american-universities-republicans-christopher-rufo/675849/

[Ruralguy]

Its  a problem at some privates too. Unfortunately, I not in a position to name them. But just make a list of all of the conservative universities and colleges, and you'd hit on some that are having struggles between board and faculty, and over the college's future existence.

[ciao_yall]

Was pondering the NYT article. And now, we have this one?

The data will always show that a college degree in anything means higher wages and lower unemployment rates. Not to mention better civic engagement, health outcomes, you name it.

The reason all these folks are upset about the humanities and social sciences? These are the fields that critique society and power. They didn't have a problem when English class was all dead White men, or when tweedy White male professors interpreted history.

Now that more diverse voices are being read and heard, and accepted narratives are being challenged, the once-dominant voices are trying to yell even louder that all these "worthless" studies are a "waste of time."

The value of an education is, yes, in higher wages and employment rates. Still, more importantly, the people making decisions for communities have Bachelor's and Master's degrees. For people to be empowered to make those decisions for one's own community instead of trying to advocate a point of view to decision makers is really what scares conservatives.

[marshwiggle]

Was pondering the NYT article. And now, we have this one?

The data will always show that a college degree in anything means higher wages and lower unemployment rates.

This is like saying the data will always show that men are taller than women. Averages hide variations in sub-populations.

Average height of women in the Netherlands: 170.4 cm.
Average height of men in China: 169.7 cm.

Arguments that avoid admitting those nuances are easy to pull apart.

[Anselm]

I am not seeing the benefits of college for the millions of people whose lives have been ruined by student loans.  I myself spent three years trying to get my first full time job with benefits.  There has not been one single offer made to me after applying for thousands of jobs in the past two years.  I would like to see a comparison of salaries for college grads vs those who are in a skilled trade.

As for the old white guys in tweed jackets, conservatives were complaining about egg headed intellectuals back in the 1960's so that is nothing new.

[dismalist]

What is the left afraid of aside from the busting of its cartel on education in the softer subjects? Higher education is a mono-culture. One can look at State government attempts to change individual institutions as a sort of anti-trust policy. What keeps institutions and people honest is competition, and the US has plenty of institutions, say about 3500. There is nothing systemic to worry about. Rather, it's an improvement.

As for the college wage premium, it is still there of course. But it has declined from a peak near 80% to about 75% since 2012. That's hardly a lot of decline, but if this annual ratio is expected to last over a lifetime -- it's a lot! During this time High School graduates wages have risen.

More to the point is asking about the cause of the college wage premium. It is probably not much caused by the job skills we teach! Rather, there is a large degree of signalling involved. The share of signalling has been estimated as high as 80% [think how much college French you remember], but I could live with a 50% estimate. There's a substantial difference in the premium among various majors. Signalling is individually beneficial -- employers pay more to those who have shown to have conformed -- but socially wasteful. If we all stood up to get a better view of the opera or the football game, none of us would!

To say nothing about those who don't graduate.

Much of this could be more cheaply accomplished at High School.

[Ruralguy]

I've heard this signaling results for a few years now.

I haven't really read the original paper, so I wonder how they differentiate between "signaling" and just being able to communicate your thoughts, goals, etc. well, which might correlate with skills to  get through those other subjects. It would still, presumably, send out a similar message: maybe college can make you a bit better at Skill A and Skill B, making you a better candidate for job C, but overall, too much time is spent on too many subjects that make you "well rounded," but that you won't really remember and won't really help you with most jobs.

[waterboy]

I have found, over the years, that many bits and pieces of courses I took as an undergrad that were not my major, have popped up and I've been able to make use of them. Not calculus though - thank the gods.

[marshwiggle]

As for the college wage premium, it is still there of course. But it has declined from a peak near 80% to about 75% since 2012. That's hardly a lot of decline, but if this annual ratio is expected to last over a lifetime -- it's a lot! During this time High School graduates wages have risen.

Even ignoring the signaling component of the college wage premium still leaves the difference in accumulated wealth for someone who started working four years earlier and did not have school expenses each of those years. So even if someone didn't leave school with debt, or had interest-free debt, they'd still be starting many tens of thousands of dollars behind the person who started working straight out of high school. The important calculation is how many years of "college wage premium" would be required to catch up with the person who started working right out of high school. It's probably at least a decade on average, and maybe more depending on the degree a person received.

[dismalist]

As for the college wage premium, it is still there of course. But it has declined from a peak near 80% to about 75% since 2012. That's hardly a lot of decline, but if this annual ratio is expected to last over a lifetime -- it's a lot! During this time High School graduates wages have risen.

Even ignoring the signaling component of the college wage premium still leaves the difference in accumulated wealth for someone who started working four years earlier and did not have school expenses each of those years. So even if someone didn't leave school with debt, or had interest-free debt, they'd still be starting many tens of thousands of dollars behind the person who started working straight out of high school. The important calculation is how many years of "college wage premium" would be required to catch up with the person who started working right out of high school. It's probably at least a decade on average, and maybe more depending on the degree a person received.

Absolutely! The college wage premium has to be bought, with cash.

It will cost as much to "buy" the college wage premium as the accumulated college wage premium over the life-cycle itself.

[dismalist]

I've heard this signaling results for a few years now.

I haven't really read the original paper, so I wonder how they differentiate between "signaling" and just being able to communicate your thoughts, goals, etc. well, which might correlate with skills to  get through those other subjects. It would still, presumably, send out a similar message: maybe college can make you a bit better at Skill A and Skill B, making you a better candidate for job C, but overall, too much time is spent on too many subjects that make you "well rounded," but that you won't really remember and won't really help you with most jobs.

The essence of signalling models is that stuff that can be observed is correlated with stuff desired, here by employers, that is not observable. So, my getting an A in the course an Goethe's Faust is not in the least useful for my job, but it told my employer that I can put my nose to the grindstone and trudge through obscure stuff and succeed.

For education, this was systematically advanced by Bryan Caplan in a book. Here is a talk by him

Starts at 4:25.

[Mobius]

That's the rub, right? How many conservatives in positions of power don't have a degree in the humanities or social sciences, or don't have an advanced degree? Mike Rowe can go around saying "dirty jobs" as great and all, but we all know the key to getting to the next level.

Was pondering the NYT article. And now, we have this one?

The data will always show that a college degree in anything means higher wages and lower unemployment rates. Not to mention better civic engagement, health outcomes, you name it.

The reason all these folks are upset about the humanities and social sciences? These are the fields that critique society and power. They didn't have a problem when English class was all dead White men, or when tweedy White male professors interpreted history.

Now that more diverse voices are being read and heard, and accepted narratives are being challenged, the once-dominant voices are trying to yell even louder that all these "worthless" studies are a "waste of time."

The value of an education is, yes, in higher wages and employment rates. Still, more importantly, the people making decisions for communities have Bachelor's and Master's degrees. For people to be empowered to make those decisions for one's own community instead of trying to advocate a point of view to decision makers is really what scares conservatives.

[Hegemony]

Even ignoring the signaling component of the college wage premium still leaves the difference in accumulated wealth for someone who started working four years earlier and did not have school expenses each of those years. So even if someone didn't leave school with debt, or had interest-free debt, they'd still be starting many tens of thousands of dollars behind the person who started working straight out of high school. The important calculation is how many years of "college wage premium" would be required to catch up with the person who started working right out of high school. It's probably at least a decade on average, and maybe more depending on the degree a person received.

Of course a lot of students continue to work through college — some of them even full-time.