k12 teacher status and parental treatment thereof

[kaysixteen]

spork dislikes the thread tangentialization on this topic, fair enough.  A new thread it is.

What is the difference, perhaps, between how parents in Canada treat k12 teachers, vs the way most American teachers are treated today?   And what are the causes for which American teachers have seen their social status and corresponding parental treatment largely distintegrate nowadays?

[Mobius]

The new premier of Alberta is against masks in schools. There was a court decision this week regarding regarding who has the power to issue mask orders: the provincial public health officer or the premier.

I haven't seen litter box stories when I read Canadian news.

There are also publicly funded religious schools in parts of the country (Alberta, Ontario, Saskatchewan, and the three territories), but those also have elected school boards.

[Stockmann]

According to a colleague of mine, according to studies what matters most for the success or failure of a K12 system is the social status of teachers (of which parental treatment is surely an important component), and the second most important factor is teachers' pay.
Looking at Pisa test results, it's blindingly obvious culture (which will influence both treatment of teachers and how much taxpayers, parents, etc are willing to pay them) overrides anything else - iirc, the Confucianist countries are basically in a league of their own, esp. when it comes to math, followed by Finland and Estonia (which have related cultures), followed by the German and English-speaking worlds, followed by assorted developed countries, followed by everyone else. At any rate, culture overrides wealth, political system, country size, etc.

[marshwiggle]

The new premier of Alberta is against masks in schools. There was a court decision this week regarding regarding who has the power to issue mask orders: the provincial public health officer or the premier.

I haven't seen litter box stories when I read Canadian news.

There are also publicly funded religious schools in parts of the country (Alberta, Ontario, Saskatchewan, and the three territories), but those also have elected school boards.

I'm pretty sure those were enshrined in the constitution, (technically, the British North America Act of 1867); they weren't lobbied into existence by some activist group. So the religious groups included were specific; no particular religious community can just get added to the roster.

I stand to be corrected, but that's my understanding.

[Mobius]

Just wait until populist politicians in Canada and Europe repeat tales of students using litter boxes at school and kindergartens having weekly drag shows.

[dismalist]

Status is endogenous. It's the opinion of all others about what you do.  It's a very misleading question if one thinks that status determines anything. Rather, it is determined.

If status matters to anyone, it is good to know that status is earned. In a manner of speaking, one pays to get status. Not by money directly, but by working for one's principles.

How much is anyone willing to pay to obtain status?

[kaysixteen]

In this country, public school teacher salaries in recent decades have increased significantly, more or less in inverse proportion to the strong decrease in the respect shown to them by parents, and largely also society in general.   I am not sure why this is, since most places where ps teachers are paid well, in many cases still much more than most US ps teachers get, the social status and respect shown them is also very high.   I have my suspicions but they are only that, suspicions, and I am willing to allow that these may well be influenced by my own political and cultural views...   for this post now, suffice it to say that methinks the low status and esp low level of respect shown teachers here is largely due to the increasing disregard for, and in many cases open hostility to, education in general.  I suspect that even in a closely related/ similar culture as Canada, this underlying condition is not really the case?

[marshwiggle]

In this country, public school teacher salaries in recent decades have increased significantly, more or less in inverse proportion to the strong decrease in the respect shown to them by parents, and largely also society in general.   I am not sure why this is, since most places where ps teachers are paid well, in many cases still much more than most US ps teachers get, the social status and respect shown them is also very high.   I have my suspicions but they are only that, suspicions, and I am willing to allow that these may well be influenced by my own political and cultural views...   for this post now, suffice it to say that methinks the low status and esp low level of respect shown teachers here is largely due to the increasing disregard for, and in many cases open hostility to, education in general. I suspect that even in a closely related/ similar culture as Canada, this underlying condition is not really the case?

One of the biggest, if not the biggest, cultural differences between the US and Canada is regarding the view of government. The US was formed by a revolution, throwing off the shackles of an oppressive government. So distrust of government is baked into the culture. Canada, on the other hand, was formed by a group of colonies who decided they could create something imperfect but workable from some sort of compromise. So Canadians view government with much less cynicism, and see it as necessary despite its flaws. Similarly, taxation is viewed as unpleasant but necessary to provide the services needed for the state to perform its function (even though it does it imperfectly). A few months ago, the Ontario government announced an end to the fee for renewing vehicle registration and refunding fees to taxpayers. The general public response was annoyance at the government for giving up this relatively small source of revenue given that the government typically runs deficits.

Lowering taxes does not automatically make society better, even if individuals have more money in their pockets. That attitude is much less common in the US.

[kaysixteen]

Yeah, that was my impression.  I suspect it also means that Canadians want and expect more government services.

That said, it still does not explain the difference wrt respect for ps teachers-- unless of course I am wrong about ps teachers being accorded more respect north of the border?   And what exactly is the average Canadian's (i.e., those who do not have graduate degrees, and to a lesser extent those without any post-secondary ed) attitude towards education?

[quasihumanist]

When it comes to attitudes towards education, I think a large portion of the explanation in the US is religious history.  The US has been repeatedly swept by various strains of ultra-Pietist Christianity which held that an emotional connection to God was the important thing and learning any serious theology was unnecessary or even harmful.  The places in the US with the most respect for education are the upper Midwest and New England, historically religiously dominated by Orthodox Lutherans and Old Light Calvinists.

[marshwiggle]

Yeah, that was my impression.  I suspect it also means that Canadians want and expect more government services.

That said, it still does not explain the difference wrt respect for ps teachers-- unless of course I am wrong about ps teachers being accorded more respect north of the border?   And what exactly is the average Canadian's (i.e., those who do not have graduate degrees, and to a lesser extent those without any post-secondary ed) attitude towards education?

From World Population Review

The Top 10 Most-Educated Countries (OECD 2018)

    Canada — 56.27%
    Japan — 50.50%
    Israel — 49.90%
    South Korea — 46.86%
    United Kingdom — 45.96%
    United States — 45.67%
    Australia — 43.74%
    Finland — 43.60%
    Norway — 43.02%
    Luxembourg — 42.86%

Canadians generally place a fair value on education. One thing that is different from the US though is post-secondary education doesn't have the same "rite-of-passage" sense in Canada. "Going to university" in Canada isn't said in the same way that "going to college" is in the US. People pursue PSE with a specific goal in mind. Students apply to programs; there is neither "Gen Ed" not the idea of "declaring a major" after a year or two. While some students change programs, they start in a specific program; they're expected to do the research ahead of time to know what they're doing rather than figure it out after they arrive. While there is still an understanding of the cultural experience it provides, PSE isn't promoted primarily on that basis.

[dismalist]

Yeah, that was my impression.  I suspect it also means that Canadians want and expect more government services.

That said, it still does not explain the difference wrt respect for ps teachers-- unless of course I am wrong about ps teachers being accorded more respect north of the border?   And what exactly is the average Canadian's (i.e., those who do not have graduate degrees, and to a lesser extent those without any post-secondary ed) attitude towards education?

From World Population Review

The Top 10 Most-Educated Countries (OECD 2018)

    Canada — 56.27%
    Japan — 50.50%
    Israel — 49.90%
    South Korea — 46.86%
    United Kingdom — 45.96%
    United States — 45.67%
    Australia — 43.74%
    Finland — 43.60%
    Norway — 43.02%
    Luxembourg — 42.86%

Canadians generally place a fair value on education. One thing that is different from the US though is post-secondary education doesn't have the same "rite-of-passage" sense in Canada. "Going to university" in Canada isn't said in the same way that "going to college" is in the US. People pursue PSE with a specific goal in mind. Students apply to programs; there is neither "Gen Ed" not the idea of "declaring a major" after a year or two. While some students change programs, they start in a specific program; they're expected to do the research ahead of time to know what they're doing rather than figure it out after they arrive. While there is still an understanding of the cultural experience it provides, PSE isn't promoted primarily on that basis.

We must note -- from an earlier thread -- that PSE is a mixed bag. The college fetish is unique to the US of A.

We can further note that if we had a list of the 10 richest countries per capita, properly measured, in which people have to work for a living instead of sitting on a gas bubble, countries such as Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Germany do not make the list of most educated. Canada and Britain are relatively poor compared to the others, so the mixed bag isn't doing much good, and Japan hasn't been doing well, either.

[MarathonRunner]

In most of Canada,  teachers need both a bachelors degree and an education degree (teachers college) which may be at the masters or bachelors level. So teachers have at least two degrees. Education degrees are often taken concurrently or consecutively. My understanding is that in most of the US, teachers don't need an education/teachers college degree.

All my teachers in Canada had, at minimum, two degrees, a Bachelor of Arts/Science/Engineering/etc. and a Bachelor or Master of Education. Some with two bachelors had an addition masters. Some had bachelors, masters, and PhD.

I would not be able to teach at an elementary or high school in Canada, because although I have a BEng, a BASc, an MPH, and will soon have a PhD, I don't have that BEd or teaching MEd degree. A masters in teaching is not sufficient if it is not focused on teaching elementary, intermediate, or high school.

I think that's one of the major differences. In high school, I had many teachers with masters degrees plus extra training (ie gifted or special education) and had two with PhDs (chemistry and biology). But they also had that teacher's college degree (bachelor's or master's).

[Mobius]

It's complicated in the U.S. Each state has its own rules. You need a bachelor's degree in education or the subject you wish to teach in, plus coursework in pedagogy. This is just a very generalized summary. You'll see folks get online degrees from Capella or Walden (for-profits) and wonder why they can't get certified despite having a degree.

[ciao_yall]

spork dislikes the thread tangentialization on this topic, fair enough.  A new thread it is.

What is the difference, perhaps, between how parents in Canada treat k12 teachers, vs the way most American teachers are treated today?   And what are the causes for which American teachers have seen their social status and corresponding parental treatment largely distintegrate nowadays?

Another issue for US teachers is that parents feel that, due to income inequality and a "winner-take-all" economy, the stakes for their kids are so high if they don't successfully complete their education. And, resources are limited - there are not enough seats in AP or College Prep classes that will help a student get into a good college. On top of this, they see/perceive other parents "playing the system" to get their own kids into gifted programs or whatever.

Teachers then become positioned as "gatekeepers" who need to be fought so that their kids can get the resources they need instead of a partner in their child's development.

Not to mention expensive tutoring, team sports (and the resulting scholarships), and other pressures on parents.