Advising someone about PhD program

[Mobius]

There is naivety and there is willful ignorance. Godspeed to those who embrace willful ignorance.

[Charlotte]

Don't be like this after writing this: "Is there anything else you would recommend to them?"

I was responding directly to mleok who seemed to be critical that I was still engaged in the discussion after having received feedback already. If others want to continue the discussion, I welcome it. However, I did not reject the feedback given already, as mleok seemed to imply, and continue to ask for additional thoughts once most people responding had reached a general consensus.

[Charlotte]

OP was a little unclear. At one point she clearly states that an adviser criticizes this approach because it would be hopeless for R1 jobs. Elsewhere she, the OP,  uses the term "larger" or "bigger." However, at times this seems to mean "bigger name." Perhaps the OP can clarify. In any case, as you say, some of the same points can be made anyway (yes, some R2s and SLAC's provide research support, though SLACs are almost all small by anyone's definition). So, its a very marginal approach for R1 jobs and maybe just plain marginal for R2 or competitive SLACs.

In a previous post, I do specify that they wish to attend at a minimum a school with masters level programs with support for research. I also specified that one of their main concerns is that they will be limited to schools within their region and unable to get a job in another region of the country.

They know an R1 is out of reach. They just want to continue research and not be limited to a regional school. This was my original question. There was misunderstanding and I think many thought I was asking if they could move up to an R1

[Ruralguy]

Its very difficult to really determine what the cutoff is for doctoral programs that would give you a reasonable change at getting a job at , say, an R2 anywhere in the US. At that level, certainly for STEM, its going to be adviser dependent. That is, certain programs would probably only get a few percent over many years getting jobs of that nature, but certain advisers might have a better track record due to money and connections and impactful publications.

So, it might not be quite as dire as we initially may have laid out due to some misunderstandings. Considering the competitiveness of certain disciplines, it may still be pretty dire. But for some other subfields of biology, psychology, econ/business/accounting, engineering/cs, its nearly impossible to hire outside of R1s and the fanciest of SLACs. So, for those fields, a graduate of a lesser program might have a decent chance.

I would probably still lean toward recommending to someone who can only pick schools within a narrow region that are willing to accept them to think about doing something else. It just seems too dicey to me.

[Kron3007]

Its very difficult to really determine what the cutoff is for doctoral programs that would give you a reasonable change at getting a job at , say, an R2 anywhere in the US. At that level, certainly for STEM, its going to be adviser dependent. That is, certain programs would probably only get a few percent over many years getting jobs of that nature, but certain advisers might have a better track record due to money and connections and impactful publications.

So, it might not be quite as dire as we initially may have laid out due to some misunderstandings. Considering the competitiveness of certain disciplines, it may still be pretty dire. But for some other subfields of biology, psychology, econ/business/accounting, engineering/cs, its nearly impossible to hire outside of R1s and the fanciest of SLACs. So, for those fields, a graduate of a lesser program might have a decent chance.

I would probably still lean toward recommending to someone who can only pick schools within a narrow region that are willing to accept them to think about doing something else. It just seems too dicey to me.

It also depends on the something else they would/could do in the region, the PhD program funding, their financial situation, etc .  Personally, I would rather be a PhD student doing something I like over a menial job that pays a little more just to fill the time, even if it doesn't lead to a faculty position.  I liked grad school, most of the time.

However, I admit that I am in a field with good industry prospects, so a PhD from a low ranked school would still have value.  Won't get you into an R1 faculty position, but definitely not a waste of time...

[Stockmann]

My advice, and this is pretty much the only field-independent advice that I think can be reasonably given, is that he should go if and only if that particular program has a good track record of its alumni getting the kind of position he wants at the kind of place he wants. Otherwise (and this very much includes if the info isn't available to him) he should not go, not now, not later.
A PhD involves too much time and effort to undertake without a good, clear reason - this bit may be field-dependent but the problem with doing it just for love of the field or because of the life of the mind is that at least in some fields PhD students actually have very little autonomy. They might have to go through a series of rigidly prescribed coursework that may have little to do with the subfield they're really interested in, and there are other constraints - in much of STEM they'll basically be doing what their advisor/thesis committee wants, or even what their advisor's funding body/reviewers want, with the means their advisor already has or is able and willing to sign a requisition for. I don't think it's that great as an alternative to a menial job, either - the student could've put that time and effort towards making a lateral career move, re-training for a different career altogether, or gaining skills, networking and climbing through the ranks, instead of doing a degree that might make them overqualified for a lot of jobs.

[Mobius]

I am just going from my own experience. I knew what types of schools I'd be competitive to teach at based on placement history of my doctorate program and my own undergraduate and master's education (not an R1, R2, or LAC). I am still a bit shocked at where I ended up as don't even teach in my secondary field, but it is not an R1 or R2, and not a region I was aiming to live in.

[Ruralguy]

I knew that my program wasn't highly ranked but a number of people I spoke with thought of it as "up and coming."  I asked about jobs, and though nobody had a faculty job (they had just in the last several years revived a program that had had its last graduate in the 1970's), a few had good post docs. As I stayed on I could see people graduating and going on to industry jobs, some faculty jobs and government labs. So, I knew I had a shot, even if the chances for an R1 in particular were probably a low (we eventually had several people over the last 25 years-30 years go on to R1 jobs, but 1 per decade for R1 jobs ain't much of a record. Of course, if you include other faculty jobs, placement is much better.

Anyway, I have the feeling the that grad program we are thinking of here is probably no better than this and might be worse. So, some chance, yes. High chance, no.