Comments about physical appearance

[Ruralguy]

I don't believe he said what his income was.

[Caracal]

I don't think the stereotypical professor (for people who are not in academia) is what any of us want to be.

I've only met one stuffy-stereotypical-per-the-movies professor in real life.  He was indeed a middle-aged white male who always wore a tweed jacket, had an office decorated in 1950's chic despite being in the 21st century, and had all the pretentiousness associated with being a philosopher.  He was renowned for failing students for plagiarism if even just four words in a paper were similar to something he could Google.

Professors may often be snappy dressers, but other stereotypes exist for valid, observable reasons, [

Why is everyone always so down on tweed? A well fitting, well made tweed jacket can look great. Heavier fabrics actually tend to drape nicely and create a good shape for your upper half.  I don't only wear tweed jackets, if I did I would often drenched in sweat in the warmer months, but tweed is pretty practical for fall and winter, especially if you live somewhere with fairly mild winters. I usually don't need to worry about an extra heavy coat when I wear a tweed sport coat.

[mamselle]

It's all Basil Rathbone's fault.

M.

[Stockmann]

I'm not a woman, but I can tell you that the academic women in my life get comments about their appearance all the time, especially in student evaluations, but also sometimes in their letters of recommendation. Also their accents. From what I can tell, it's still rampant.

I'll leave it to your intended audience to offer actual advice, however.

Wow. Who writes these letters of recommendation?

Yeah. I'd definitely think less of the letter-writer if I got a letter like that.

[Ruralguy]

I kind of doubt the letter writer was too explicit, but I've heard people say what they think is helpful by saying something like "She's bright, she's beautiful, she's going places!"  Although complimentary, it focuses less on the sort of thing a similar compliment to/about a male might focus on. Students will say things like "She's very nice and easy on the eyes."  I sometimes get "he's a nice guy" but never "easy on the eyes" (probably because it isn't true!).

[Stockmann]

Spoken comments are a different matter than a LOR. Me and my colleagues make all sorts of comments, including on the personal appearance of folks of either sex, that I'd never put on a LOR.

[Kron3007]

I kind of doubt the letter writer was too explicit, but I've heard people say what they think is helpful by saying something like "She's bright, she's beautiful, she's going places!"  Although complimentary, it focuses less on the sort of thing a similar compliment to/about a male might focus on. Students will say things like "She's very nice and easy on the eyes."  I sometimes get "he's a nice guy" but never "easy on the eyes" (probably because it isn't true!).

I have seen many comments like that about some male profs on RMP.  I doubt they make it in the official ones though...

[mahagonny]

As a non-American white male, I get the accent comments occasionally -- but only in the US: Europeans think I'm American, so I don't think my accent is that strong. Also, quite often that I "don't look like a professor." I take that one as a compliment: I'm a first generation student and my view of professors was that they would be stuffy and formal. I'm generally the least formal person and my presentation (and teaching) style is information/conversational more so than what seems like a rehearsed/memorized talk.

I don't think the stereotypical professor (for people who are not in academia) is what any of us want to be.

I'd like his income.

I don't believe he said what his income was.

The stereotypical college professor had a career, a salary and a full time benefitted job. The institution wanted it understood that they had a long-term relationship. That's what I'm alluding to.

I kind of doubt the letter writer was too explicit, but I've heard people say what they think is helpful by saying something like "She's bright, she's beautiful, she's going places!"  Although complimentary, it focuses less on the sort of thing a similar compliment to/about a male might focus on. Students will say things like "She's very nice and easy on the eyes."  I sometimes get "he's a nice guy" but never "easy on the eyes" (probably because it isn't true!).

I have seen many comments like that about some male profs on RMP.  I doubt they make it in the official ones though...

Up until recently RMP solicited comments about appearance, i.e. "hotness." But at least, hopefully, no supervisor required you to read them.

[Myword]

I knew a student who actually dropped the class because the female professor, he said, was too fat. He asked another woman to take her class, and she replied, sarcastically, "is my weight okay with you?"         

true story.

[revert79]

I did compliment a young African American lady on her beautiful hair recently, but not at work. She was ringing up my purchase at the supermarket. I might explain that she had the kind of hair (tiny braids with beads) that obviously took a lot of patient work to fix up, so I was, possibly, complimenting her on her taste and creativity, not her sex appeal. Whatever the message was, she appeared to be very pleased. It could also have been seen as benign since I wear a wedding band and I'm thirty years older, so I obviously wasn't hitting on her.

However, these were not my thought processes. My thought process was if we're going to maintain the male white supremacy thing, there's going to be work involved, so I'll do my share.

is this a self-deprecating joke of some kind?  you cannot be serious...

[ergative]

I did compliment a young African American lady on her beautiful hair recently, but not at work.She was ringing up my purchase at the supermarket. I might explain that she had the kind of hair (tiny braids with beads) that obviously took a lot of patient work to fix up, so I was, possibly, complimenting her on her taste and creativity, not her sex appeal. Whatever the message was, she appeared to be very pleased. It could also have been seen as benign since I wear a wedding band and I'm thirty years older, so I obviously wasn't hitting on her.

However, these were not my thought processes. My thought process was if we're going to maintain the male white supremacy thing, there's going to be work involved, so I'll do my share.

is this a self-deprecating joke of some kind?  you cannot be serious...

Um, she was at work. She was at work at a job that required her to smile and be polite to customers and seem pleased at their personal comments. And I can promise you, men with wedding bands who are thirty years older have definitely hit on her in the past. I have worked in customer service as a young woman fresh out of college. It happens.

Please don't make personal comments to anyone at work in a customer service position. They cannot do anything but smile and be polite, because their job depends on it, but there are exactly two ways the interaction can go.

1: you are polite and stick to business and everything goes smoothly.

2: you make a personal comment
2a: it's a perfectly harmless personal comment and you brighten the clerk's day a bit
2b: it's over the line and makes her feel uncomfortable, but she can't do a damn thing about it because her job depends on smiling at customers. So she smiles and appears pleased, and you walk away imagining that you just pulled off a 2a, when in fact it was definitely a 2b.

Please don't be the kind of person who thinks that the benefits of 2a are so enormous that they outweigh the damage of 2b. Option #1 is never wrong. Be #1!

[mahagonny]

I did compliment a young African American lady on her beautiful hair recently, but not at work.She was ringing up my purchase at the supermarket. I might explain that she had the kind of hair (tiny braids with beads) that obviously took a lot of patient work to fix up, so I was, possibly, complimenting her on her taste and creativity, not her sex appeal. Whatever the message was, she appeared to be very pleased. It could also have been seen as benign since I wear a wedding band and I'm thirty years older, so I obviously wasn't hitting on her.

However, these were not my thought processes. My thought process was if we're going to maintain the male white supremacy thing, there's going to be work involved, so I'll do my share.

is this a self-deprecating joke of some kind?  you cannot be serious...

Um, she was at work. She was at work at a job that required her to smile and be polite to customers and seem pleased at their personal comments. And I can promise you, men with wedding bands who are thirty years older have definitely hit on her in the past. I have worked in customer service as a young woman fresh out of college. It happens.

Please don't make personal comments to anyone at work in a customer service position. They cannot do anything but smile and be polite, because their job depends on it, but there are exactly two ways the interaction can go.

1: you are polite and stick to business and everything goes smoothly.

2: you make a personal comment
2a: it's a perfectly harmless personal comment and you brighten the clerk's day a bit
2b: it's over the line and makes her feel uncomfortable, but she can't do a damn thing about it because her job depends on smiling at customers. So she smiles and appears pleased, and you walk away imagining that you just pulled off a 2a, when in fact it was definitely a 2b.

Please don't be the kind of person who thinks that the benefits of 2a are so enormous that they outweigh the damage of 2b. Option #1 is never wrong. Be #1!

Oh that's nothing much. I don't leer and I keep my hands to myself.  I wouldn't have made the comment in the first place except that she had spent several seconds tending to her hair  and then apologized for the delay, which was no problem. Obviously a person who works that hard to augment their natural beauty intends for it to be noticed. But from what I know of you two so far, I don't expect you to be impressed by these details, and I probably don't care.

You should see what goes on lately. Women in my workplace, my age, seem to be hug addicts. They hug me without even asking. They call me 'Sweetie.' Perhaps they are lonely. But they could have noticed my wedding band and left me alone. Earlier this week a woman coworker who is in administration said to me, emotively, "I miss you now that your office is at the other end of the hall and I never see you."

[revert79]

I did compliment a young African American lady on her beautiful hair recently, but not at work.She was ringing up my purchase at the supermarket. I might explain that she had the kind of hair (tiny braids with beads) that obviously took a lot of patient work to fix up, so I was, possibly, complimenting her on her taste and creativity, not her sex appeal. Whatever the message was, she appeared to be very pleased. It could also have been seen as benign since I wear a wedding band and I'm thirty years older, so I obviously wasn't hitting on her.

However, these were not my thought processes. My thought process was if we're going to maintain the male white supremacy thing, there's going to be work involved, so I'll do my share.

is this a self-deprecating joke of some kind?  you cannot be serious...

Um, she was at work. She was at work at a job that required her to smile and be polite to customers and seem pleased at their personal comments. And I can promise you, men with wedding bands who are thirty years older have definitely hit on her in the past. I have worked in customer service as a young woman fresh out of college. It happens.

Please don't make personal comments to anyone at work in a customer service position. They cannot do anything but smile and be polite, because their job depends on it, but there are exactly two ways the interaction can go.

1: you are polite and stick to business and everything goes smoothly.

2: you make a personal comment
2a: it's a perfectly harmless personal comment and you brighten the clerk's day a bit
2b: it's over the line and makes her feel uncomfortable, but she can't do a damn thing about it because her job depends on smiling at customers. So she smiles and appears pleased, and you walk away imagining that you just pulled off a 2a, when in fact it was definitely a 2b.

Please don't be the kind of person who thinks that the benefits of 2a are so enormous that they outweigh the damage of 2b. Option #1 is never wrong. Be #1!

Oh that's nothing much. I don't leer and I keep my hands to myself.  I wouldn't have made the comment in the first place except that she had spent several seconds tending to her hair  and then apologized for the delay, which was no problem. Obviously a person who works that hard to augment their natural beauty intends for it to be noticed. But from what I know of you two so far, I don't expect you to be impressed by these details, and I probably don't care.

You should see what goes on lately. Women in my workplace, my age, seem to be hug addicts. They hug me without even asking. They call me 'Sweetie.' Perhaps they are lonely. But they could have noticed my wedding band and left me alone. Earlier this week a woman coworker who is in administration said to me, emotively, "I miss you now that your office is at the other end of the hall and I never see you."

ergative, thanks for your points.  yes, working in a service job gives one little agency in terms of reaction to comments. 

and give me a break, mahagonny.  after all the ranting on your reactionary "diversity and inclusion gone wild" thread, you must know that, as a white person, you don't make comments about Black women's hair. 

seriously, are you just trying to upend this discussion?    "she's totally not at the university--she is Black--she is a supermarket clerk--she's even a little vain!"

your antics are lame.

[mahagonny]

Select 'ignore user' and put my name on it. There's your break.

[ergative]

I did compliment a young African American lady on her beautiful hair recently, but not at work.She was ringing up my purchase at the supermarket. I might explain that she had the kind of hair (tiny braids with beads) that obviously took a lot of patient work to fix up, so I was, possibly, complimenting her on her taste and creativity, not her sex appeal. Whatever the message was, she appeared to be very pleased. It could also have been seen as benign since I wear a wedding band and I'm thirty years older, so I obviously wasn't hitting on her.

However, these were not my thought processes. My thought process was if we're going to maintain the male white supremacy thing, there's going to be work involved, so I'll do my share.

is this a self-deprecating joke of some kind?  you cannot be serious...

Um, she was at work. She was at work at a job that required her to smile and be polite to customers and seem pleased at their personal comments. And I can promise you, men with wedding bands who are thirty years older have definitely hit on her in the past. I have worked in customer service as a young woman fresh out of college. It happens.

Please don't make personal comments to anyone at work in a customer service position. They cannot do anything but smile and be polite, because their job depends on it, but there are exactly two ways the interaction can go.

1: you are polite and stick to business and everything goes smoothly.

2: you make a personal comment
2a: it's a perfectly harmless personal comment and you brighten the clerk's day a bit
2b: it's over the line and makes her feel uncomfortable, but she can't do a damn thing about it because her job depends on smiling at customers. So she smiles and appears pleased, and you walk away imagining that you just pulled off a 2a, when in fact it was definitely a 2b.

Please don't be the kind of person who thinks that the benefits of 2a are so enormous that they outweigh the damage of 2b. Option #1 is never wrong. Be #1!

Obviously a person who works that hard to augment their natural beauty intends for it to be noticed.

I'm not sure that this will get through, but let me try again:

Do you think black women wear tiny braids just because it's pretty? Do you think black people wear dreadlocks and cornrows because it's a cultural style? Black people's hair is different from white people's hair. It requires different care, different hairstyles, and different maintenance in order not to be damaged. This is why dress codes and rules about hair styles are so fundamentally racist: they're not just banning a cultural mode of appearance specific to black people (which would be bad enough); they are in fact banning a biologically necessary component of physical care that is specific to properties of black people's hair.

It's not hard to learn more about this. It shows up in fiction (for example, Americanah, by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie); it shows up in non-fiction (for example Don't touch my hair, by Emma Dabiri); it shows up in news stories (for example: this kid whose dreadlocks were no problem in high school, but had to be cut off if he wanted to walk at graduation).

When you comment on this woman's hair, you may have thought you were commenting on some component of personal adornment, but in fact you were probably making a comment about basic body maintenance. Imagine the following exchange; you are going up to buy a hot dog at a fair ground, and the teller, a white woman, is putting on some sunblock. She apologizes for the wait, and you say, 'oh, not a problem. The sunblock really makes your skin shine. It looks very nice.' Kind of weird and creepy, right? She wasn't putting on sunblock to make herself pretty; she was putting it on because her body required it as basic maintenance.

Now, I don't know if that's the case with your grocery store clerk. Maybe she chose those beads carefully and wanted to look nice. Or maybe not. But you can't know. That's why you don't make personal comments about people's appearances.

One final thought: 'Obviously she wanted it; look at how she was dressed!' is a very, very bad attitude to take about other people's appearances.