Coronavirus

[Puget]

Go bite yourself.   My patience for those avoiding, or actively teaching against, vaxxing and masking, is done.   Period.

Kay, I understand your frustration with people who flout/thwart/sabotage public health measures, but your response is really uncalled for here.  There's a huge difference between being vocally opposed to masking even in situations where masking a vital part of transmission control, on the one hand, and simply taking off one's mask in situations where masking doesn't serve a useful purpose (e.g. outdoors in places where people are not close together), on the other.

Right, and I'll go further and say when people insist that others mask in situations where science doesn't support it, which is certainly true of walking outdoors, it undermines confidence that mask requirements are justified in general, and reduces compliance where it actually IS supported (indoors in public places almost everywhere in the US right now, due to high transmission rates). You can't scream "follow the science" and then reject the science when it says something *is* safe-- that's bad for everyone. Now, if you, Kaysixteen, feel more comfortable wearing a mask outdoors, that's fine, though I'd urge you to look at the actual data on (almost non-existent) outdoor transmission. But please don't yell at people who are actually following the science by taking their masks off outdoors, as almost everyplace permits.

[downer]

I find when I am in NYC, most people are masked when outside. Maybe that's because they are going in and out of stores or offices, but I think it is also due to a social pressure to conform. Maybe also because the pandemic was so traumatic in the city that people find it comforting to mask.

I generally don't wear a mask outside, or I wear it under my chin, and mask up with passing someone on the sidewalk.

[Caracal]

and reduces compliance where it actually IS supported (indoors in public places almost everywhere in the US right now, due to high transmission rates).

Right. If you want people to comply with mask rules you have to give them a break. On my teaching days, I'm wearing a mask for about four hours. I'm not interested in also wearing it on a hot day while I hustle a half mile up the hill between classes.

[kaysixteen]

I get that my response was intense, but I was responding to FishProf's 'bite me'.

And I do get that masking is not as necessary everywhere at all times, and some places and times, it is not necessary more or less at all, but professors are teachers, and must set examples.   College kids will, like it or not, be much more ready to ignore masking reqs whenever they see their teachers not masking, even if the particular situation does not really require masking-- adolescents are not always knowledgeable about the nuances of situation, etc.

And I must cycle back to my general point-- I want to see this country go back as much as possible to pre-covid norms, but we ain't gonna get there if vaccinidiots and other assorted members of the FreeDumb caucus continue to spout their nonsense.   And practice that nonsense.   And teach others to do so as well.  And I am tired of people, especially, sadly, many if not most of my coreligionists, actively criticize me and treat me as though there is actually something wrong with ME for wanting to vax and mask.   I am also fighting deep hostility to people who get sick because they will not vax-- there is a guy in my church who just spent a month in the hospital and almost died, because he did not want to have a vax 'rewrite his DNA', and he was not shy about preaching his nonsense to others in church.   And his son, 20yo, is apparently now all set to give him his hard-to-get coveted apprencticeship in dad's HVAC union, because he still won't vax, and dad, despite all he's gone through, will not alter his thinking, such as it is.

[Hegemony]

I would certainly wear a mask outdoors in New York if the sidewalks were as crowded as they sometimes get. I am remembering that woman — was it in Australia? — who caught Delta merely by walking through a patch of air where an infected person had walked several moments before. They could trace the chain of transmission by the specific characteristics of that strain. When I'm cheek-by-jowl with other pedestrians, I'm staying masked.

[Puget]

I get that my response was intense, but I was responding to FishProf's 'bite me'.

And I do get that masking is not as necessary everywhere at all times, and some places and times, it is not necessary more or less at all, but professors are teachers, and must set examples.   College kids will, like it or not, be much more ready to ignore masking reqs whenever they see their teachers not masking, even if the particular situation does not really require masking-- adolescents are not always knowledgeable about the nuances of situation, etc.

And I must cycle back to my general point-- I want to see this country go back as much as possible to pre-covid norms, but we ain't gonna get there if vaccinidiots and other assorted members of the FreeDumb caucus continue to spout their nonsense.   And practice that nonsense.   And teach others to do so as well.  And I am tired of people, especially, sadly, many if not most of my coreligionists, actively criticize me and treat me as though there is actually something wrong with ME for wanting to vax and mask.   I am also fighting deep hostility to people who get sick because they will not vax-- there is a guy in my church who just spent a month in the hospital and almost died, because he did not want to have a vax 'rewrite his DNA', and he was not shy about preaching his nonsense to others in church.   And his son, 20yo, is apparently now all set to give him his hard-to-get coveted apprencticeship in dad's HVAC union, because he still won't vax, and dad, despite all he's gone through, will not alter his thinking, such as it is.

I understand your frustrations, but the point is that there is NOT an outdoor mask requirement almost anyplace, because the science clearly shows outdoors is low risk, so no one is "setting a bad example" or "not following the rules" by taking their mask off outdoors. So your attack on FishProf was unwarranted, though FishProf also didn't respond very maturely to you.

And in my experience, our students are perfectly capable of following both the rules and nuance, much more so than many so called adults. For example, I'm allowed to take my mask off while teaching and then put it back on when interacting more closely with students, whereas the students are required to always keep their masks on in the classroom-- there have been zero problems with this. (Campus is 97% fully vaccinated, transmission is low). Not saying this is true of all undergraduates everywhere, but I get tired of people disparaging young adults, when in many cases they are more sensible and responsible than their elders.

[FishProf]

though FishProf also didn't respond very maturely to you.

Noted.  Kay, I  apologize.

I'm going to assume good faith here and seek some clarity.  My campus is:
1) Fully Vaccinated (not literally, but practically),
2) requires masks indoors, but not outdoors (both explicitly stated and posted)
3) Students are required to test weekly (vaccinated faculty can (and I do) but aren't required,
4) Student's have to be able to show they are cleared to attend class (Coverified app - I show them mine, they show me theirs)
5) We are a state institution and are following local, state, and federal guidelines;
6) I assiduously follow and enforce the campus policies;

Given the above, what is your objection?

(Aside: I am as baffled by the stance of your co-religionists' (both large and small scale) resistance to doing something so clearly beneficial to everyone.  You have my sympathy to be on the receiving end of that madness).

[Caracal]

I would certainly wear a mask outdoors in New York if the sidewalks were as crowded as they sometimes get. I am remembering that woman — was it in Australia? — who caught Delta merely by walking through a patch of air where an infected person had walked several moments before. They could trace the chain of transmission by the specific characteristics of that strain. When I'm cheek-by-jowl with other pedestrians, I'm staying masked.

There have been hundreds of millions of people who have caught covid around the world, so you would expect a few of them have gotten it in some weird and unlikely ways. But, it doesn't mean its very likely.

[Caracal]

I get that my response was intense, but I was responding to FishProf's 'bite me'.

And I do get that masking is not as necessary everywhere at all times, and some places and times, it is not necessary more or less at all, but professors are teachers, and must set examples.   College kids will, like it or not, be much more ready to ignore masking reqs whenever they see their teachers not masking, even if the particular situation does not really require masking-- adolescents are not always knowledgeable about the nuances of situation, etc.

I really find this reasoning strange. It would be like if you were saying that it's required for people to wear helmets when they are on bikes or motorcycles so instructors should wear helmets when they walk on campus, because it is important to set an example.

[Hegemony]

There have been hundreds of millions of people who have caught covid around the world, so you would expect a few of them have gotten it in some weird and unlikely ways. But, it doesn't mean its very likely.

I don't think we know how likely it is. The six-feet guidance was established for a reason, though — you're at less risk when you're at a distance than when you're shoulder-to-shoulder with someone. Since I have underlying conditions that put me at grave risk if I were to catch it, I aim to err on the side of caution. Your choices may differ. Everyone who errs on the side of incaution, though, does increase the chances that it will be transmitted yet again, and that more variants will develop. How much you care about that may also differ.

[Caracal]

There have been hundreds of millions of people who have caught covid around the world, so you would expect a few of them have gotten it in some weird and unlikely ways. But, it doesn't mean its very likely.

I don't think we know how likely it is. The six-feet guidance was established for a reason, though — you're at less risk when you're at a distance than when you're shoulder-to-shoulder with someone. Since I have underlying conditions that put me at grave risk if I were to catch it, I aim to err on the side of caution. Your choices may differ. Everyone who errs on the side of incaution, though, does increase the chances that it will be transmitted yet again, and that more variants will develop. How much you care about that may also differ.

Well pretty unlikely since it appears there's really only one case documented with that kind of contact. Obviously, there are probably more, but its a tiny, tiny percentage of transmission which means the effect on the larger burden and variants and all the rest is basically non existent.

I'm not suggesting there's anything irrational or wrong about masking in more crowded outdoor settings, and we all have to make our own risk calculations. However, I think it is counterproductive to suggest that there's a moral duty to wear masks in outdoor settings (with the possible exception of something very crowded where people are going to be in close proximity for an extended period, like a concert or sporting event) Masks have costs. It can be easy to discount those costs because they aren't dangerous to health, but they are uncomfortable for many of us, and they do make social interaction more difficult and less enjoyable for lots of people. People are more likely to continue wearing masks when they need to if it feels sustainable, and part of making it sustainable is designating the outdoors as a place where you don't need to wear masks, and aren't going to get dirty looks for people for not doing so.

[kaysixteen]

I get that some campuses are better at vax and mask compliance than others.   My point still stands, however-- professors should set an example for students, and there is no reason to equivocate on such an example by taking one's mask off walking across campus.

I wish I could explain why it is white evangelicals seem to have fallen down the vaccinidiocy rabbit trail, but it is complex.   Factors include: 1) tribal identity politics/ virtue signalling, 2) generalized hostility to science, 3) extreme anti-intellectualism and hostility to education, 4) hideous effects of bad propagnanda consumption.   There are likely others, such as 5) silly notions of 'freedom' (my own pastor said he is pro-vaccination, but also 'pro-liberty', and we are praying regularly for church members who are set to lose their jobs, willingly, in support of their 'liberty'.   

Damn, this is pissing me off.   The 'turn your brains off' caucus in evangelicalism....uggghhh

[kaysixteen]

Awright, I will fess up.  The pandemic has been really rough on me wrt my church.   Being the only one masking, supporting Biden, trying to deal with the ignorance and active promotion of bad, ahem, well... and then this guy, after preaching nonsense about vaxxes, goes and gets himself a covid case that the ICU nurse tells his wife that he was only one of two people during the pandemic at that hospital, who had it so bad, who survived.   And then after this, his badly homeschooled 20yo son is prepared to give up his future to not vax, and his mom asks for prayer that he will be able to keep his job without vaxxing.   And his father is apparently ok with all of this.  And whenever the man is actually healthy enough to return to church services, I will have to figure out how to hide the overt resentment I feel for the man....

[Caracal]

I get that some campuses are better at vax and mask compliance than others.   My point still stands, however-- professors should set an example for students, and there is no reason to equivocate on such an example by taking one's mask off walking across campus.

What example are we supposed to be setting? If there was a mask policy for all public spaces, outdoor or indoor, as there was last year at many places, I would agree that professors should make sure to follow the rules even in situations where the risk seems very low.

I also would agree that instructors should model best practices to students, even if we aren't talking about actual rule breaking. I wear a well fitting mask over my nose and mouth while I teach and anytime I'm indoors anywhere but my office with the door closed. I don't take down my mask during class to drink water. If I do need a sip of water, I excuse myself and go out to the hall to drink it.

However, I'm not doing these things to set an example. I'm doing them to lower the chance that I will get infected with Covid or transmit it to others. If I am setting an example, the only example I want to set is to follow the spirit of the rules in a way that makes things safer for everyone. Outdoors, masks aren't required, and the chances of transmission are very low, so I can't see how I'm sending a harmful message by taking my mask off. If a student sees me yank my mask off the moment I get out of the building, but always sees me with the mask on inside, I think I'm actually setting a good example-that masks are important inside, even if they sometimes uncomfortable and inconvenient.

[Puget]

I get that some campuses are better at vax and mask compliance than others.   My point still stands, however-- professors should set an example for students, and there is no reason to equivocate on such an example by taking one's mask off walking across campus.

What example are we supposed to be setting? If there was a mask policy for all public spaces, outdoor or indoor, as there was last year at many places, I would agree that professors should make sure to follow the rules even in situations where the risk seems very low.

I also would agree that instructors should model best practices to students, even if we aren't talking about actual rule breaking. I wear a well fitting mask over my nose and mouth while I teach and anytime I'm indoors anywhere but my office with the door closed. I don't take down my mask during class to drink water. If I do need a sip of water, I excuse myself and go out to the hall to drink it.

However, I'm not doing these things to set an example. I'm doing them to lower the chance that I will get infected with Covid or transmit it to others. If I am setting an example, the only example I want to set is to follow the spirit of the rules in a way that makes things safer for everyone. Outdoors, masks aren't required, and the chances of transmission are very low, so I can't see how I'm sending a harmful message by taking my mask off. If a student sees me yank my mask off the moment I get out of the building, but always sees me with the mask on inside, I think I'm actually setting a good example-that masks are important inside, even if they sometimes uncomfortable and inconvenient.

Right-- the example we want to set for students is that we follow the science and the rules. Wearing a mask outdoors when they are not required by the rules and not supported as necessary by the science doesn't achieve that.

It also gives ammunition to to the very people you are rightly frustrated with, who have been saying see, even with vaccines these crazy liberals are still wearing masks outdoors, so the vaccines clearly don't work. The message should be: vaccines and indoor masking when community transmission is high work, and people can otherwise go about their lives normally-- look at the ultra low case rates on campuses doing these things!

Now, you may find me wearing a mask outdoors sometimes come winter, because it turns out a thick cloth mask is great for keeping your face warm.