Institutional Prestige vs Program Prestige For Interdisciplinary Field?

[gael2020]

I'm in an interdisciplinary Humanities field and currently deciding between two programs.

School A is top of the interdisciplinary field (which is a relatively small one).
-Very well respected and seen as one of the leaders of the field.
-Great fit intellectually.
-The only drawbacks are the location (I hate it and its $$$) and that most of its students place into interdisciplinary departments. I'm not sure if this is because of preference or inability to be considered by traditional departments. The institution itself is well known, on the level of places like Tufts, NYU, Northwestern, Boston College, USC.

I know institutional prestige normally dosen't matter. However the second school is Harvard.
-Their program is still top ranked within the field, but most of those in the field see Harvard as conservative and not cutting edge.
-The prestige seems to carry over into traditional departments since unlike school 1 - most of the students place into History and English departments.
-There are some organizational issues with the program (because its a program consisting of a committee - not a department, many students have said they've sometimes felt not prioritized).
-That being said, all the students have said faculty have been a highlight of the program. And the 3 advisors I would have are GREAT and have been said to be amongst the best and most student committed.
-More $$$$, better location.



I've been reading different things about how much the "Ivy" pedigree matters in the job market. This situation is even more nuanced for me since my discipline is small and interdisciplinary - I'm not sure how much field reputation matters since I'll likely be sending job apps all over the place. If school 1 seems to be a better fit on paper - and has a better reputation, is it stupid to go to the less cutting edge Harvard program for the name brand and advisors? Is there much a difference between a Harvard degree and a non ivy but still elite degree from schools like Northwestern or NYU or USC?

[Parasaurolophus]

I know institutional prestige normally dosen't matter. However the second school is Harvard.

That's news to me. As far as I can see, institutional prestige (at least in my humanities field) matters a lot. A lot a lot. A degree from Harvard (or one of its few pedigree-equivalents) would give you a shot at an R1/R2/elite SLAC job in my field. A degree from somewhere else (even if it's tops for the subfield) will not. It also helps to have a degree from a university everybody recognizes when you're applying for stuff outside your field/outside the academy. It won't matter if, say, IU Bloomington is tops in your field, because nobody outside the academy (or maybe outside your field) knows anything about IUB. But everybody assumes Harvard must be tops by default.

I don't think prestige is the be-all/end-all that some others do, but it's clear to me that it matters in all kinds of indirect ways, and those add up. So it's not something to be discounted.

I'm in an interdisciplinary Humanities field and currently deciding between two programs.

School A is top of the interdisciplinary field (which is a relatively small one).
-The only drawbacks are the location (I hate it and its $$$) and that most of its students place into interdisciplinary departments.

To my mind, those are big drawbacks. You can't control where you'll live after grad school, because that will depend on an oversupplied market. But you can control where you spend the next 7 years, and liking where you live makes a HUGE quality of life difference. And having enough money to be comfortable also makes a huge difference.

my discipline is small and interdisciplinary - I'm not sure how much field reputation matters since I'll likely be sending job apps all over the place.

I think pedigree would matter more under those circumstances, because the people evaluating you won't necessarily have good benchmarks if they're coming from other fields (rather than the same kind of interdisciplinary program). Name recognition will matter.

Is there much a difference between a Harvard degree and a non ivy but still elite degree from schools like Northwestern or NYU or USC?

It depends. In a lot of cases, I think there's no substantive difference--and, depending on the area of specialization in question, the Ivy may well be a lot worse than some of the non-Ivies. But a big, well-endowed Ivy like Harvard (or Yale, or Princeton) comes with a lot of indirect benefits (e.g. the coming economic catastrophe won't completely fuck them, better funding, the colloquium budget is bigger/won't get slashed, maybe a major journal/press is housed on campus, etc.). Those small perks and things add up fast. And everyone outside the academy knows what Harvard is, and is impressed by default. Not so USC. (In fact, very much not so USC, for ordinary Californians--USC has a bit of a dodgy rep there.)

NYU might be different. It's a bit of a weird institution when it comes to these things. In my field, you absolutely should choose NYU (the top department in the world) over Harvard (which I think is overrated, but that's clearly just me), and even though nonacademics might not know much about it, it would still be a pretty safe bet. But I'm not confident that that translates across all other disciplines.

[gael2020]

That's news to me. As far as I can see, institutional prestige (at least in my humanities field) matters a lot. A lot a lot. A degree from Harvard (or one of its few pedigree-equivalents) would give you a shot at an R1/R2/elite SLAC job in my field. A degree from somewhere else (even if it's tops for the subfield) will not. It also helps to have a degree from a university everybody recognizes when you're applying for stuff outside your field/outside the academy. It won't matter if, say, IU Bloomington is tops in your field, because nobody outside the academy (or maybe outside your field) knows anything about IUB. But everybody assumes Harvard must be tops by default.

I don't think prestige is the be-all/end-all that some others do, but it's clear to me that it matters in all kinds of indirect ways, and those add up. So it's not something to be discounted.

I've been reading/hearing all over that the prestige of the department matters greatly while the prestige of the institution matters less so (some say not at all). That being said, I'm not sure how much of a difference in prestige there is between a Harvard and NYU degree, institutionally speaking. Outside of the academy, NYU is nothing to laugh at but wouldn't compare to Harvard I'd say.

To my mind, those are big drawbacks. You can't control where you'll live after grad school, because that will depend on an oversupplied market. But you can control where you spend the next 7 years, and liking where you live makes a HUGE quality of life difference. And having enough money to be comfortable also makes a huge difference.

This is a bit complicated as this school is in the city I've grown up my entire life. So I have a support network here but I'd be stuck in a place I've been for a long time (and have grown sick of, honestly). Toughing it out for another 5 years wouldn't tank my mental health but I've heard that its always preferable to "go somewhere" specifically to do your doctorate (and also that it looks better to have regional variety on your CV).

That being said, I've never lived outside my home city, and so maybe I underestimate the emotional struggles of doing a PhD where you don't have roots/community. What has your experience been?

It depends. In a lot of cases, I think there's no substantive difference--and, depending on the area of specialization in question, the Ivy may well be a lot worse than some of the non-Ivies. But a big, well-endowed Ivy like Harvard (or Yale, or Princeton) comes with a lot of indirect benefits (e.g. the coming economic catastrophe won't completely fuck them, better funding, the colloquium budget is bigger/won't get slashed, maybe a major journal/press is housed on campus, etc.). Those small perks and things add up fast. And everyone outside the academy knows what Harvard is, and is impressed by default. Not so USC. (In fact, very much not so USC, for ordinary Californians--USC has a bit of a dodgy rep there.)

NYU might be different. It's a bit of a weird institution when it comes to these things. In my field, you absolutely should choose NYU (the top department in the world) over Harvard (which I think is overrated, but that's clearly just me), and even though nonacademics might not know much about it, it would still be a pretty safe bet. But I'm not confident that that translates across all other disciplines.

Interesting. Why is it a weird institution in that respect?

And safety and risk management is definitely where my head is at. I feel as if a Harvard degree will open more doors and has more legibility across spaces. In the non academic world, I feel as if a NYU degree in Ethnic Studies in New York - or a USC degree in Ethnic Studies in California would get a "huh" whereas a Harvard degree, for better or worse, turns heads. In this day and age, and job market, I feel as if its silly to choose fit or potential over security. But I don't know if I'm thinking of this right.

[jerseyjay]

It depends. In a lot of cases, I think there's no substantive difference--and, depending on the area of specialization in question, the Ivy may well be a lot worse than some of the non-Ivies. But a big, well-endowed Ivy like Harvard (or Yale, or Princeton) comes with a lot of indirect benefits (e.g. the coming economic catastrophe won't completely fuck them, better funding, the colloquium budget is bigger/won't get slashed, maybe a major journal/press is housed on campus, etc.). Those small perks and things add up fast. And everyone outside the academy knows what Harvard is, and is impressed by default. Not so USC. (In fact, very much not so USC, for ordinary Californians--USC has a bit of a dodgy rep there.)

NYU might be different....

For what it is worth, until very recently (25 years ago?) NYU had a rather poor reputation, for students too rich for City and too dumb for Columbia. My recollection is that NYU essentially bought its way out of being a mediocre commuter school in the 1990s, in part by attracting a lot of international students. While its graduate program (at least in history) is top notch, I am not sure about the calibre of its undergraduates. And, given the choice, I might still prefer to get a doctorate from Columbia. (Note: my degree is from neither, and both NYU and Columbia rejected me.)

That said, if you have your heart set on doing a graduate degree in an interdisciplinary program in the humanities, then choose school A if you are independently wealthy or only interested in the intellectual stimulation of the degree. Otherwise, choose Harvard because it would make you more attractive to a wide range of schools who do not care about your speciality.

This is assuming, of course, that Harvard offers you a good package. I don't think I would advise anybody to get a humanities degree from anywhere on their own dime.

[gael2020]

For what it is worth, until very recently (25 years ago?) NYU had a rather poor reputation, for students too rich for City and too dumb for Columbia. My recollection is that NYU essentially bought its way out of being a mediocre commuter school in the 1990s, in part by attracting a lot of international students. While its graduate program (at least in history) is top notch, I am not sure about the calibre of its undergraduates. And, given the choice, I might still prefer to get a doctorate from Columbia. (Note: my degree is from neither, and both NYU and Columbia rejected me.)

That said, if you have your heart set on doing a graduate degree in an interdisciplinary program in the humanities, then choose school A if you are independently wealthy or only interested in the intellectual stimulation of the degree. Otherwise, choose Harvard because it would make you more attractive to a wide range of schools who do not care about your speciality.

This is assuming, of course, that Harvard offers you a good package. I don't think I would advise anybody to get a humanities degree from anywhere on their own dime.

Harvard is actually offering me more money (maybe a 2 grand more?). School A's rep, great program, and good placements the last 10 years are what has made this decision hard. But you think Harvard is still the better choice?

Something else I've been trying to factor in is that interdisciplinary humanities is the most precarious sector of academia. Not that either of these programs will have their funding cut (theyre both rich) but if school A's reputation declines or the field gets cut institutionally, at least a Harvard degree seems more robust.  I don't know if that thinking holds but it seems right?

[jerseyjay]

Chances are, the decision might actually not make that much a difference. You might not get a job anyway, or you might get a job anyway.

My school (an open admissions university that does not offer graduate degrees in the humanities) tends not to hire people from interdisciplinary programs, except for some reason women's studies. African-American studies, Latin American studies, and other such programs (which are minors, not majors) tend to hire people with degrees in a discipline, who are then often housed in another discipline part-time. Of course, now we are not hiring anybody at all.

A Harvard degree would impress people here, probably more than it would be worth. At a research institution, it is possible that another degree would be better received. The problem is, one cannot bet on getting a research-focused job. And I don't think a Harvard degree would hurt a job search at a research institution, either.

So I guess I would lean toward Harvard, not because I think Harvard is better, but because other people think Harvard is better.

However, I am not in your field. I would suggest talking to some people in your field about this.

[Golazo]

Go to Harvard. The niche interdisciplinary field will have few openings and will compete with people in traditional departments, and so the ability of the program to place in traditional departments is huge, along with prestige. Most jobs are 3-3 to 4-4 teaching jobs that require the ability to teach broadly in something traditional. You need to be able to position yourself to apply to lots of jobs if you want an academic career.

[Hegemony]

You hate the location of the first place, and the other place is Harvard — so go with Harvard. They will have a lot of money, which helps for all kinds of extras, and they will have a lot of connections — sounds like win-win to me.

[lightning]

Go to Harvard, duh.

Also, being in a traditional department, does not mean you cannot make forays into interdisciplinary research, and establish a beachhead there, too.

[Hibush]

Their program is still top ranked within the field, but most of those in the field see Harvard as conservative and not cutting edge.

Harvard, realizing that they are no longer cutting edge, have made you this offer in the hope that you will bring them back to relevance through your novel scholarship.

[Caracal]

For what it is worth, until very recently (25 years ago?) NYU had a rather poor reputation, for students too rich for City and too dumb for Columbia. My recollection is that NYU essentially bought its way out of being a mediocre commuter school in the 1990s, in part by attracting a lot of international students. While its graduate program (at least in history) is top notch, I am not sure about the calibre of its undergraduates. And, given the choice, I might still prefer to get a doctorate from Columbia. (Note: my degree is from neither, and both NYU and Columbia rejected me.)

That said, if you have your heart set on doing a graduate degree in an interdisciplinary program in the humanities, then choose school A if you are independently wealthy or only interested in the intellectual stimulation of the degree. Otherwise, choose Harvard because it would make you more attractive to a wide range of schools who do not care about your speciality.

This is assuming, of course, that Harvard offers you a good package. I don't think I would advise anybody to get a humanities degree from anywhere on their own dime.

Harvard is actually offering me more money (maybe a 2 grand more?). School A's rep, great program, and good placements the last 10 years are what has made this decision hard. But you think Harvard is still the better choice?

Something else I've been trying to factor in is that interdisciplinary humanities is the most precarious sector of academia. Not that either of these programs will have their funding cut (theyre both rich) but if school A's reputation declines or the field gets cut institutionally, at least a Harvard degree seems more robust.  I don't know if that thinking holds but it seems right?

The problem is that it really isn't possible to offer good advice in the abstract here. It really depends on what the field is and what the schools are. It also really depends on who you would be working with. Do you have undergraduate mentors? Ask them. One thing I would try not to consider would be the location. If you're hoping to get a job in academia, having a lot of ideas about places you do and don't want to live is just a recipe for unhappiness. The only way I'd factor it in is in terms of cost of living and the stipend.

[spork]

Since you say that you'll likely be sending job applications all over the place, I will assume that you are not independently wealthy and will need to work to support yourself. In that case, the question is not "A or B?" but "Should I go to graduate school for an interdisciplinary humanities degree?" And the answer is "no."

[gael2020]

Since you say that you'll likely be sending job applications all over the place, I will assume that you are not independently wealthy and will need to work to support yourself. In that case, the question is not "A or B?" but "Should I go to graduate school for an interdisciplinary humanities degree?" And the answer is "no."

Sending out job applications for TT positions widely seems to be the norm in academia. I don't know of anyone, even those in top ranked traditional departments, who only send out 5-10 applications with confidence.

[gael2020]

For what it is worth, until very recently (25 years ago?) NYU had a rather poor reputation, for students too rich for City and too dumb for Columbia. My recollection is that NYU essentially bought its way out of being a mediocre commuter school in the 1990s, in part by attracting a lot of international students. While its graduate program (at least in history) is top notch, I am not sure about the calibre of its undergraduates. And, given the choice, I might still prefer to get a doctorate from Columbia. (Note: my degree is from neither, and both NYU and Columbia rejected me.)

That said, if you have your heart set on doing a graduate degree in an interdisciplinary program in the humanities, then choose school A if you are independently wealthy or only interested in the intellectual stimulation of the degree. Otherwise, choose Harvard because it would make you more attractive to a wide range of schools who do not care about your speciality.

This is assuming, of course, that Harvard offers you a good package. I don't think I would advise anybody to get a humanities degree from anywhere on their own dime.

Harvard is actually offering me more money (maybe a 2 grand more?). School A's rep, great program, and good placements the last 10 years are what has made this decision hard. But you think Harvard is still the better choice?

Something else I've been trying to factor in is that interdisciplinary humanities is the most precarious sector of academia. Not that either of these programs will have their funding cut (theyre both rich) but if school A's reputation declines or the field gets cut institutionally, at least a Harvard degree seems more robust.  I don't know if that thinking holds but it seems right?

The problem is that it really isn't possible to offer good advice in the abstract here. It really depends on what the field is and what the schools are. It also really depends on who you would be working with. Do you have undergraduate mentors? Ask them. One thing I would try not to consider would be the location. If you're hoping to get a job in academia, having a lot of ideas about places you do and don't want to live is just a recipe for unhappiness. The only way I'd factor it in is in terms of cost of living and the stipend.

I emailed two mentors familiar with the field and they both said something like this: School 2 is the top in the country and the superior program in reputation, scholarship production, intellectual community, etc. That being said, Harvard has benefits in terms of getting regional/institutional variety (since my undergrad was at a low ranked public institution) and also more legibility within traditional disciplines, in alt-ac, and the nonacademic job market.

[spork]

Since you say that you'll likely be sending job applications all over the place, I will assume that you are not independently wealthy and will need to work to support yourself. In that case, the question is not "A or B?" but "Should I go to graduate school for an interdisciplinary humanities degree?" And the answer is "no."

Sending out job applications for TT positions widely seems to be the norm in academia. I don't know of anyone, even those in top ranked traditional departments, who only send out 5-10 applications with confidence.

You miss my point. Even with 200 applications, the chances of getting an academic humanities job that pays a living wage are slim to none.

Originally published in 2008.

Published in 2018.