RIP: To remember those lost to us, whether close or at large

[clean]

Colin Powell  At 84
(From COVID)

[ab_grp]

Colin Powell  At 84
(From COVID)

Just a clarifying addendum from CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/18/politics/colin-powell-dies/index.html):

"General Colin L. Powell, former U.S. Secretary of State and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, passed away this morning due to complications from Covid 19," the Powell family wrote on Facebook, noting he was fully vaccinated.

Powell had multiple myeloma, a cancer of plasma cells that suppresses the body's immune response, as well as Parkinson's, Peggy Cifrino, Powell's longtime chief of staff, confirmed to CNN. Even if fully vaccinated against Covid-19, those who are immunocompromised are at greater risk from the virus.

[Langue_doc]

Link to the NYTimes article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/18/us/politics/colin-powell-dead.html

[Parasaurolophus]

From covering up the Mai Lai massacre to lying about Iraq (and lying about lying about Iraq), invading Panama, and coordinating the war on terror, he was a cowardly bag man to the end.

[marshwiggle]

From covering up the Mai Lai massacre to lying about Iraq (and lying about lying about Iraq), invading Panama, and coordinating the war on terror, he was a cowardly bag man to the end.

So just out of curiosity, is there anyone who has led armed forces in time of war who you would consider worthy of honour and respect?

[Parasaurolophus]

From covering up the Mai Lai massacre to lying about Iraq (and lying about lying about Iraq), invading Panama, and coordinating the war on terror, he was a cowardly bag man to the end.

So just out of curiosity, is there anyone who has led armed forces in time of war who you would consider worthy of honour and respect?

The ones who don't commit or cover up war crimes so they can enrich themselves.

[clean]

so they can enrich themselves

How specifically did he "enrich himself"?

[kaysixteen]

Exactly did junior officer Powell help cover up the My Lai massacre?   What exactly was the problem with invading Panama to rid it of a cocaine-trafficking dictator?

What is the evidence pro/ con that Powell was lying about not knowing what he told the UN about Iraq was a lie?

[dismalist]

Yes, in a head of the Joint Chiefs, one is not looking for somebody to organize a church social.

Had his job description been followed by his successors, many in the world would have been better off:

In doing so he stamped the Powell Doctrine on military operations: Identify clear political objectives, gain public support and use decisive and overwhelming force to defeat enemy forces.

The NYT article neglects to mention what he called an exit strategy. In plain English: Politicos, define success, and then get the hell out.

Colin Powell was decent and wise.

[mamselle]

Or perhaps, like most humans, he was simply a mixture of characteristics, some worthy, some less so.

M.

[marshwiggle]

From covering up the Mai Lai massacre to lying about Iraq (and lying about lying about Iraq), invading Panama, and coordinating the war on terror, he was a cowardly bag man to the end.

So just out of curiosity, is there anyone who has led armed forces in time of war who you would consider worthy of honour and respect?

The ones who don't commit or cover up war crimes so they can enrich themselves.

Give a specific example.

[mahagonny]

The 'yellow cake uranium' speech was bullshit. And influenced public opinion in favor of the Iraq invasion. Another thing Trump wasn't wrong about, the regime change didn't have to happen. George W. Bush continues to be flummoxed over the whole situation, unsure of anything other than that he always does the right thing.

On another subject, here's a tribute to a police officer who was murdered in cold blood while on the job. If anyone's offended that George Floyd gets mentioned again and not in glowing terms, remember, you guys are the ones with the T-shirts with Floyd's lovely face on them, so he's fair game for discussion.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/no-gold-coffins-or-public-funerals-for-officer-dylan-harrison

[downer]

Who would have thought that Parasaurolophus and DJT would agree on something!

[Parasaurolophus]

so they can enrich themselves

How specifically did he "enrich himself"?

I'll concede his grift is nothing like as direct as Cheney's. But he leveraged his career into a series of extremely lucrative speaking engagements and a multi-million dollar book deal, then after leaving the Bush administration became a partner for a number of venture capital, software, energy, and other firms.

Now, there's nothing wrong in principle with leveraging your career to do that. Except that his was a career characterized by keeping quiet about really big, important wrongs so that he could climb the next rung on the ladder.

Exactly did junior officer Powell help cover up the My Lai massacre?

In 1968 he was tasked with investigating a letter corroborating the My Lai massacre. He shrugged and said there was nothing to it, allowing it to be covered up until 1970.

What exactly was the problem with invading Panama to rid it of a cocaine-trafficking dictator?

You know Noriega was a US-backed CIA plant (until he wasn't), right? Regardless, regime-change operations are bad for the countries whose regimes are "changed"--they introduce serious instability. And remember, this was in the context of South America's dirty wars in the 1980s: the US did a lot of very bad things there and then, including training torturers who subsequently "disappeared" over 30 000 people in Argentina. I don't know enough to know how involved Powell was in all of that, but I do know that he had a chance to speak up against American involvement in Panama, and instead he doubled down.

What is the evidence pro/ con that Powell was lying about not knowing what he told the UN about Iraq was a lie?

As you doubtless know, Congress never investigated him, so there's lots we don't know. But here's a good summary of what we do know, and how it shows he was a lying sack of shit.

It's perhaps worth adding that Powell was, by his own admission, privy to the fact that the US was using torture during the Bush administration (with the caveat that he was initially kept in the dark). Once again, he did not speak out.

And then, of course, there's his opposition to peacekeeping in Bosnia, his public spat with Clinton about allowing queer people to serve in the military...


Powell was a coward, and he deserves nothing but our contempt. That he was less shitty than Cheney, Bush, and Rumsfeld doesn't do a lot to burnish his legacy.

Or perhaps, like most humans, he was simply a mixture of characteristics, some worthy, some less so.

M.

Sure. But the difference is that he's complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and his life left the world a significantly worse place than it was. Genghis Khan was a complex and flawed person, too, but he also murdered hundreds of millions. Donald Trump is a mix of worthy and unworthy characteristics, too, but the unworthy far outweighs the worthy. We should be honest about people's legacies.

The ones who don't commit or cover up war crimes so they can enrich themselves.

Give a specific example.

You know that the implication, here, is that there are no such people?

I'm happy to concede that there are. I'm sure there must be. There are a lot of military officials in the world, and I don't keep close tabs on their careers. At a pass, how about Roméo Dallaire? For Americans, maybe Douglas MacArthur or Dwight D. Eisenhower? (Although the latter's presidential history might disqualify him by my standards.) I dunno, you tell me.

[marshwiggle]

The ones who don't commit or cover up war crimes so they can enrich themselves.

Give a specific example.

You know that the implication, here, is that there are no such people?

I'm happy to concede that there are. I'm sure there must be. There are a lot of military officials in the world, and I don't keep close tabs on their careers. At a pass, how about Roméo Dallaire?

Roméo Dallaire suffered a serious mental breakdown from having been prevented from intervening during a genocide. It sounds to me like isolationism is the only acceptable option for you.